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Dealing with the actual client, the customer is

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relatively

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straightforward. But internally, within the business within the

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organization,

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there are often lots of,

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competing priorities,

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internal politics, silo thinking, and there's no different

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in life or death. Kidnapped that

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negotiation. Dealing with the kin was relatively

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straightforward and in easy

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because they're just businessman

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looking to get the best deal at the

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end of the day.

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Welcome to.

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I'm your host Peter He. My guest today

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is Scott Walker. Scott served as a Scotland

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yard detective for 16 years investigating all aspects

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of serious and organized crime, including kidnapping and

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terrorism.

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He also deployed overseas as part of a

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military intelligence

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interrogation team to inter interject and high value

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targets.

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When he left the police in 20 15,

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Scott joined a crisis in risk management consultancy

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that specialize from kidnapped for ransom negotiations and

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resolving other similar peril around the world.

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Scott continues to advise, train, and coach leaders,

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at all levels, organizations who wish to enhance

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their resilience,

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emotional intelligence and communication skills. He helps companies

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build a culture of resilience and develop engaged,

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fulfilled, purpose driven and productive teams.

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In March of 20 24, Scott publishes his

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first book, order out of chaos, win every

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negotiation, thrive in a diversity and become a

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world class communicator.

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Scott, welcome to. It's great to speak with

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you today.

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Thanks, Pete. It's great to be here.

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Well, I I wanna talk about your beginnings.

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Mentioned in the introduction there that you were

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for 16 years a, police detective. And Wonder

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what inspired you go into that that work.

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Yeah. I was always

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attracted

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to that line of work for some reason

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really...

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He was a kid. He was a young

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kid. I was always asking why

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much to the

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frustration probably of parents and grandparents.

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And I always I've avoid been curious as

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to what makes

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human beings do what they do.

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And as a police officers are detective,

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you get a a ring side seat into

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into 1 all of. Into all levels of

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society,

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into all manner of behavior,

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and and particularly from the psychological perspective as

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well. And I just fascinated.

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Plus, I mean, I enjoyed it every single

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day, pretty much I actually got paid

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to go after bad guys,

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give

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innocent good people of voice.

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To stand up for them, stand up for

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the victims,

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and feel as if I was doing something

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meaningful and worthwhile.

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And as I said, I loved every moment

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of it. And

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yeah, had a very varied and interesting career

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for sure. That that... That's quite apparent. And

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toward the end of your time,

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with Scott Yard, you were invited to participate

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in kidnapping in ransom cases. And I wonder

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does that opportunity present itself? What what were

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you doing previously

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to to make it clear that that was

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something that you might be good at? As

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I I have to imagine that it's not

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everyone that is invited to do so.

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Again, Always

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done jobs

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within my career the police that I'd really

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enjoyed, whether or night it was counter terrorism

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work,

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intelligence gathering, Covid ops,

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and 1 of my roles before that was

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as a

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inform handler, an agent handler, you know, in

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America, you call them Cis,

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confidential inform.

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My job there was to

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identify, recruit and handle those kind of individuals.

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To again it was all about

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how do you influence and persuade and motivate

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and and

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bring about some kind of cooperation with other

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people?

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Particularly if they don't don't wanna do so

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initially.

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So of that lend me down 1 path

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and then 1 day I in a in

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the place canteen,

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in the police playstation on, I bumped into

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a a former body of mine,

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there were known for years.

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And at this point, I've being promoted a

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couple of times.

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And the only danger I was facing

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was getting paper cuts from all the crime

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reports.

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Or

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a sore side from sat down beyond a

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desk or day. And he he was just

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regalia me over a coffee of... He'd spent

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the last 4 days or so

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helping to negotiate the release

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of a young man from the clutches of

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quite a vicious Albania

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organized Crime gang.

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I just sat there, pete over over the

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coffee thinking.

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I want I want some of that. I

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wanna get involved in that.

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And

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But graciously, he he made introductions to the

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unit that's

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oversaw or the selection and training of of

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that line of work.

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And

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I applied, Went through the process

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and they came out the other side.

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And threw myself into those 3AM phone calls

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when you gotta go and

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get alongside the family and and help negotiate

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the lease of their loved ones.

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And is there is there an apprentice apprenticeship

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to this? Is there somebody by your side

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in the early stages as you're learning how

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to do this? I mean, I, as I

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as I think about the the range of

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of,

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skills 1 needs, and understanding of human psychology,

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risk management, calculus of various kinds,

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and we'll get into some of the of

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your deeper learnings

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as we go through this conversation no doubt.

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III recognize some of this must have been

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part of what you were doing already,

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but the application of this must have been

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different as well.

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Yeah. Absolutely.

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Y was assigned

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a far more experienced

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negotiator colleague

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in in these cases. Because like anything. You

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know, you're gonna get good in business. You

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need the flying hours. He don't become a

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Ceo,

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successful Ceo,

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6 months out of high school. You know,

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yeah, if you're gonna do a startup up

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I guess. But if you wanna if you

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wanna be the Head, a large multinational organization

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or whatever it is, then you're gonna have

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to get those flying out. You know, and

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you normally get mentors

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along the way who can guide you. Not

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always remember my

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very first

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negotiation. Very first, kidnapping

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I deployed to. I hadn't quite mastered the

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skill set completely around

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about emotional self regulation, for example. You know,

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you know, if you can regulate

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what you're feeling,

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that can help you know the decision making

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and the actions you take.

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And to cut up very long story short,

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I'm with this family, we'd have the

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their young son taken by a gang, and

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he was in a pretty bad way. He

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was being tortured and, you know, the deadline

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was fast approaching.

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I I was getting really frustrated with the

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family.

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As to why they wouldn't listen to my

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wise

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say advice, you know, the old age of

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on know, 28 or whatever was at the

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time.

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And

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I ended

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being really direct. Borderline probably very rude actually.

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And almost shouting with the family.

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And that is until I found, I felt

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this hand on my shoulder.

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And there was an imp unacceptable squeeze

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of my far more

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experienced

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esteem

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colleague next next to me who

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thankfully was able to enter interrupt my pattern

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and then allow me to just sit and

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watch a real master class as to

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how do you bring about

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influence,

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persuasion,

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cooperation,

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collaboration.

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When the stakes can't get any higher,

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and the emotions and and everything else are

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running running super high.

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Yeah. You've noted

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that the number 1 skill of of a

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top negotiator is the ability to self regulate

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emotions. You've added to that that highly developed

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sensory acuity is also

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very important. And clearly, that's a description of

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that.

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It's something that... And clearly, as you point

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out, it's something, and and as your experience

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bear, bears out,

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it's something that can be learned as well.

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Can you talk a bit about some of

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the steps towards,

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being able to self regulate one's emotions and

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also to heighten their sensory acuity, acuity? Practice

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makes

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a mate... To make perfect. It makes permanent

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though. And it's like anything, it's it's a

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muscle.

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You know that emotionally intelligence muscle, the sensory

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acuity, the regulation,

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You know, just like you go to the

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gym to get strong or fitting. You don't

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just go once and then expecting to walk

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out looking like on arnold Sc and egg

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or somebody.

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You have to practice

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and fail often. And

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what it really is a couple of principles

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or concepts that can really help us all

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to

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to mask this really.

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And the first 1 is in any form

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of

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communication, particularly when it really counts

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particularly those difficult

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conversations. And, you know, we've all got 1

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of those conversations we put off,

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or we're quite re to

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engaging in,

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and that is really, it's not about you.

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Again, the Stephen C lion a first seek

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to understand before being understood.

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That still stands a test of time decades

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later from when he pending his book.

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And it's true though, if we can enter

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into

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a situation and

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negotiation

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with far more curiosity than of some assumption.

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If I'm gonna... Like I'm really interested in

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what's going on for Peter right now.

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He's at the table for this business deal

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or he leading on a project or whatever

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it is. I need to know what he's

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really going on for Peter. How does he

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see this situation? How does he see me?

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Etcetera and how can I best bring about

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some kind of collaboration cooperation or indeed some

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behavioral change with Peter?

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And it's no good if I'm

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if I'm be like I wasn't in that

280
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first, kidnapping case of dealt with,

281
00:09:57,679 --> 00:09:58,899
allowing my

282
00:09:59,437 --> 00:10:01,435
emotions to overall the common sense in the

283
00:10:01,435 --> 00:10:04,562
and the national decision making. Even though we

284
00:10:04,562 --> 00:10:07,354
make decisions emotionally and justify them rationally afterwards,

285
00:10:07,752 --> 00:10:09,768
we can still look to bring

286
00:10:10,305 --> 00:10:11,842
an element of control

287
00:10:12,314 --> 00:10:14,072
over that as much as possible. It's not

288
00:10:14,072 --> 00:10:14,312
easy,

289
00:10:15,271 --> 00:10:16,310
simple, but not easy.

290
00:10:17,269 --> 00:10:19,507
And so yet, it's it's looking at it.

291
00:10:19,587 --> 00:10:20,946
It's not about me. It's about the other

292
00:10:20,946 --> 00:10:21,265
person.

293
00:10:22,159 --> 00:10:24,392
Gotta to get my own state where needs

294
00:10:24,392 --> 00:10:26,465
to be my own emotions in check, first

295
00:10:26,465 --> 00:10:26,784
of all,

296
00:10:27,821 --> 00:10:28,799
bring that curiosity

297
00:10:29,256 --> 00:10:30,872
while an assumption. And

298
00:10:31,424 --> 00:10:33,020
I can elaborate on some of the other

299
00:10:33,020 --> 00:10:34,217
steps a bit later on, perhaps,

300
00:10:34,935 --> 00:10:36,851
about where where do we go with that?

301
00:10:37,010 --> 00:10:39,106
How do we really then bring about

302
00:10:39,818 --> 00:10:42,609
Peter, for example, to make a decision or

303
00:10:42,609 --> 00:10:44,842
change mind or do some kind of behavioral

304
00:10:44,842 --> 00:10:45,001
change.

305
00:10:45,958 --> 00:10:46,756
I I know that the,

306
00:10:47,473 --> 00:10:49,642
the insight enjoyable Taylor from her,

307
00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:52,992
stroke for from her her Ted talk that

308
00:10:52,992 --> 00:10:55,067
we're feeling creatures that think as opposed to

309
00:10:55,067 --> 00:10:57,713
the opposite as meaningful for you and and

310
00:10:58,032 --> 00:10:59,387
and certainly, you're describing that

311
00:11:00,105 --> 00:11:02,018
just there. Yeah. That's. Do We you know,

312
00:11:02,097 --> 00:11:04,091
we're emotional creatures that think.

313
00:11:04,664 --> 00:11:07,139
Not thinking creatures that feel. And you rightly

314
00:11:07,139 --> 00:11:07,857
said that Peter it's,

315
00:11:08,815 --> 00:11:10,811
we're designed as as the species as an

316
00:11:10,811 --> 00:11:14,359
organism so to speak. We're designed to experience

317
00:11:14,497 --> 00:11:17,230
emotion. It's it's how we interpret the world

318
00:11:17,369 --> 00:11:20,798
around us. And unilaterally could experience exactly the

319
00:11:20,798 --> 00:11:22,654
same situation or set of circumstances.

320
00:11:23,844 --> 00:11:26,336
But we could experience different completely different

321
00:11:27,110 --> 00:11:27,349
emotions,

322
00:11:28,226 --> 00:11:29,523
which will then impact

323
00:11:29,979 --> 00:11:32,289
our decision making, which then impacts the actions

324
00:11:32,289 --> 00:11:33,379
that we take as a

325
00:11:33,976 --> 00:11:35,887
So the more we can get ahead of

326
00:11:35,887 --> 00:11:38,434
that curve so to speak. The more we

327
00:11:38,434 --> 00:11:38,934
can

328
00:11:39,468 --> 00:11:41,617
identify and get to tune with what we're

329
00:11:41,617 --> 00:11:43,701
feeling what we what we're experiencing.

330
00:11:44,576 --> 00:11:46,802
And crucially what the other person is,

331
00:11:47,835 --> 00:11:50,299
then we can start to think about... Well,

332
00:11:50,538 --> 00:11:52,938
I we could bring about so form of

333
00:11:52,938 --> 00:11:53,994
success here where

334
00:11:54,528 --> 00:11:56,515
everybody can walk away you fitting, like, they've

335
00:11:56,515 --> 00:11:58,661
got what they need from this conversation or

336
00:11:58,661 --> 00:12:00,186
it. Stable or whatever it is.

337
00:12:00,901 --> 00:12:03,284
And you've spoken about and and even alluded

338
00:12:03,284 --> 00:12:04,340
already in the story

339
00:12:04,714 --> 00:12:08,808
of that excruciating, first negotiation managing the chaos

340
00:12:08,868 --> 00:12:09,746
within the chaos.

341
00:12:11,024 --> 00:12:13,421
That's... When you're going through your negotiations, naturally

342
00:12:13,421 --> 00:12:14,220
they are chaotic.

343
00:12:14,634 --> 00:12:17,514
But but even, the the your your clients,

344
00:12:18,634 --> 00:12:20,554
the the the who are you... Who you

345
00:12:20,554 --> 00:12:22,315
are negotiating on behalf of or who you

346
00:12:22,315 --> 00:12:25,124
are counseling for the negotiation, there's chaos on

347
00:12:25,124 --> 00:12:27,271
that side as well. And so it almost

348
00:12:27,271 --> 00:12:29,655
feels like, you know, 3 or 4 dimensional

349
00:12:29,655 --> 00:12:31,961
chess as you think about, the moves of

350
00:12:31,961 --> 00:12:33,630
the person across the table, but also the

351
00:12:33,630 --> 00:12:35,085
move on your side of the table as

352
00:12:35,085 --> 00:12:37,804
well and managing across all of that. Talk

353
00:12:37,804 --> 00:12:39,485
a bit about that that insight, the managing

354
00:12:39,485 --> 00:12:41,004
of the chaos within the chaos.

355
00:12:42,295 --> 00:12:45,157
Yeah. And I'm sure your your views and

356
00:12:45,157 --> 00:12:47,542
listeners will relate to this, dealing with the

357
00:12:47,542 --> 00:12:49,870
actual client, the customer is relatively

358
00:12:50,324 --> 00:12:50,563
straightforward.

359
00:12:51,294 --> 00:12:52,170
Relatively easy.

360
00:12:53,127 --> 00:12:56,098
But internally, within the business within the

361
00:12:56,474 --> 00:12:58,808
organization, there are often lots of egos

362
00:12:59,519 --> 00:13:00,418
competing priorities,

363
00:13:01,437 --> 00:13:03,594
internal politics, silo thinking,

364
00:13:04,393 --> 00:13:06,311
all of that stuff that can get in

365
00:13:06,311 --> 00:13:06,970
the way

366
00:13:07,364 --> 00:13:08,024
a really

367
00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:09,220
effective

368
00:13:10,316 --> 00:13:12,231
providing value to the customer to the client.

369
00:13:12,550 --> 00:13:14,600
And there's no different in life or death

370
00:13:14,719 --> 00:13:15,219
kidnapped

371
00:13:15,678 --> 00:13:15,918
negotiations.

372
00:13:16,557 --> 00:13:19,774
Dealing with the kin was relatively and, relatively

373
00:13:20,553 --> 00:13:21,612
straightforward and easy

374
00:13:22,151 --> 00:13:23,290
because they're just businessman

375
00:13:23,764 --> 00:13:25,279
looking to get the best deal at the

376
00:13:25,279 --> 00:13:25,838
end of the day.

377
00:13:26,875 --> 00:13:29,188
But 80 percent of my time at least

378
00:13:29,188 --> 00:13:31,921
was spent on the crisis within the crisis

379
00:13:32,617 --> 00:13:33,117
was

380
00:13:33,748 --> 00:13:36,294
usually the crisis management team, the senior leadership

381
00:13:36,294 --> 00:13:37,249
team, the board,

382
00:13:37,806 --> 00:13:39,238
the exec level team,

383
00:13:40,193 --> 00:13:42,205
that that was where my

384
00:13:42,994 --> 00:13:45,551
skills and my ability and my energy and

385
00:13:45,551 --> 00:13:48,108
my attention was really brought to bear there,

386
00:13:48,587 --> 00:13:50,046
was being able to navigate

387
00:13:51,478 --> 00:13:54,032
through, as I said, the ego, the internal

388
00:13:54,032 --> 00:13:55,091
politics, the

389
00:13:55,629 --> 00:13:58,023
the the the shifting energies, the the things

390
00:13:58,023 --> 00:13:59,401
that are unspoken

391
00:14:00,195 --> 00:14:01,335
the culture in the

392
00:14:01,715 --> 00:14:01,875
organization.

393
00:14:02,754 --> 00:14:03,254
And,

394
00:14:04,355 --> 00:14:06,914
yeah. There's sometimes I was just happy and

395
00:14:06,914 --> 00:14:08,115
glad to get on the call with the

396
00:14:08,115 --> 00:14:10,364
bad guys, because I thought, right, this... I

397
00:14:10,364 --> 00:14:11,480
can kinda of control that,

398
00:14:12,436 --> 00:14:15,247
but navigating that that crisis within the crisis

399
00:14:15,305 --> 00:14:15,805
is

400
00:14:16,994 --> 00:14:20,191
Yeah. It's something that's across every industry and

401
00:14:20,191 --> 00:14:22,109
sector. I'm sure. And anyone listening as I

402
00:14:22,109 --> 00:14:24,266
said, in their business. I'm sure most of

403
00:14:24,266 --> 00:14:25,725
their time will be spent

404
00:14:26,278 --> 00:14:29,460
dealing whether, firefight fighting or more, longer term

405
00:14:29,460 --> 00:14:29,960
issues

406
00:14:30,574 --> 00:14:32,483
internally more than externally facing.

407
00:14:33,691 --> 00:14:35,280
1 of the things that shines through through

408
00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:36,631
so many of your stories, Scott as the

409
00:14:36,631 --> 00:14:39,357
importance of empathy. I mean, so often, the

410
00:14:39,493 --> 00:14:41,082
negotiations that you're part of are really black

411
00:14:41,082 --> 00:14:43,165
and white. There is crystal clear as to

412
00:14:43,165 --> 00:14:45,075
who was good and who was bad, who

413
00:14:45,075 --> 00:14:46,189
was who is wrong.

414
00:14:47,064 --> 00:14:48,917
And yet finding empathy

415
00:14:50,102 --> 00:14:52,247
and using Empathy rather, but in finding out

416
00:14:52,247 --> 00:14:55,186
the motivation, is so critically important. If you

417
00:14:55,186 --> 00:14:56,694
get carried away with the fact that the

418
00:14:56,694 --> 00:14:58,124
person on the other side is a bad

419
00:14:58,124 --> 00:14:58,442
person,

420
00:14:59,648 --> 00:15:02,512
then your ability to negotiate is is hindered

421
00:15:02,512 --> 00:15:03,069
at a minimum.

422
00:15:03,864 --> 00:15:06,012
Talk a bit about the necessity for for

423
00:15:06,012 --> 00:15:08,580
for the even in situations where, you know,

424
00:15:08,740 --> 00:15:09,857
on the face of it, it might be

425
00:15:09,857 --> 00:15:11,614
might seem so difficult to to find it.

426
00:15:11,853 --> 00:15:12,513
What if

427
00:15:13,051 --> 00:15:15,605
emotional self regulation is the number 1 skill,

428
00:15:16,259 --> 00:15:18,597
of all the best negotiators in the world

429
00:15:18,817 --> 00:15:20,655
irrespective of what you're negotiating over.

430
00:15:22,014 --> 00:15:24,171
The the step that's just closer all the

431
00:15:24,171 --> 00:15:27,060
skill that's just closely follows that is the

432
00:15:27,060 --> 00:15:28,834
ability to empathize

433
00:15:29,210 --> 00:15:29,710
effectively.

434
00:15:30,803 --> 00:15:31,781
And people sometimes

435
00:15:32,397 --> 00:15:34,547
misunderstand what empathy is and what it isn't.

436
00:15:35,438 --> 00:15:37,748
It's a doing word. We do empathy.

437
00:15:38,544 --> 00:15:40,614
It's not where we take on the emotions

438
00:15:40,614 --> 00:15:42,525
or the feeling of the other side or

439
00:15:42,525 --> 00:15:43,242
the other person.

440
00:15:44,054 --> 00:15:45,750
And it's certainly not about

441
00:15:46,367 --> 00:15:47,346
agreeing with

442
00:15:48,281 --> 00:15:49,020
a qui,

443
00:15:49,557 --> 00:15:50,935
honing or supporting

444
00:15:51,472 --> 00:15:53,386
whatever it is you're looking to empathize.

445
00:15:53,959 --> 00:15:55,558
Or who with. For example,

446
00:15:56,197 --> 00:15:57,955
I would have to empathize and I did

447
00:15:57,955 --> 00:15:59,174
on every single

448
00:16:00,193 --> 00:16:03,643
kidnapping or cyber or other form of distortion

449
00:16:03,643 --> 00:16:05,478
case. That to empathize with the other side.

450
00:16:05,956 --> 00:16:07,233
And just like in business,

451
00:16:08,030 --> 00:16:09,865
you have to be able to empathize with

452
00:16:09,865 --> 00:16:11,380
people who you don't get on with or

453
00:16:11,380 --> 00:16:12,497
share anything in common.

454
00:16:13,706 --> 00:16:16,089
And particularly with the the clients or the

455
00:16:16,089 --> 00:16:16,486
customers.

456
00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:18,733
And it's really

457
00:16:19,663 --> 00:16:20,878
simply a case of

458
00:16:21,331 --> 00:16:22,466
you being able

459
00:16:23,094 --> 00:16:23,594
to

460
00:16:24,131 --> 00:16:25,907
demonstrate your understanding

461
00:16:26,603 --> 00:16:27,502
of where

462
00:16:27,959 --> 00:16:29,235
near the side is at.

463
00:16:30,272 --> 00:16:32,128
And that is particularly powerful

464
00:16:32,999 --> 00:16:34,213
if you disagree

465
00:16:34,667 --> 00:16:36,731
on something. Or there's a bit of a

466
00:16:36,731 --> 00:16:37,208
gap there.

467
00:16:37,923 --> 00:16:39,988
Maybe you and I are on opposite size

468
00:16:39,988 --> 00:16:41,656
of the negotiating table, Peter.

469
00:16:42,624 --> 00:16:43,981
And we're... We've hit a bit of an

470
00:16:43,981 --> 00:16:46,456
impasse where we can't quite agree on how

471
00:16:46,456 --> 00:16:48,713
to close this deal. And so

472
00:16:49,410 --> 00:16:51,406
empathy and action here would look something like

473
00:16:51,486 --> 00:16:53,573
Peter is okay for just share with you

474
00:16:53,573 --> 00:16:55,247
where I think you're at right now with

475
00:16:55,247 --> 00:16:55,804
this deal.

476
00:16:56,521 --> 00:16:58,513
You're not gonna say no. You're gonna say,

477
00:16:58,673 --> 00:17:01,162
yeah, sure. And I'll say semi on the

478
00:17:01,162 --> 00:17:01,562
lines of...

479
00:17:02,361 --> 00:17:04,678
Well, for from my perspective, it it seems

480
00:17:04,678 --> 00:17:06,675
like you think that we're dragging our heels

481
00:17:06,675 --> 00:17:08,920
on this. And that we're looking to the

482
00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:09,658
cut you

483
00:17:10,192 --> 00:17:12,258
and maybe almost trying to pull a fast

484
00:17:12,258 --> 00:17:15,199
1 and do out of a significant part

485
00:17:15,199 --> 00:17:17,284
of the market share here. Mean I've just

486
00:17:17,284 --> 00:17:18,562
made that up, but you can kinda get

487
00:17:18,562 --> 00:17:20,719
a sense of and you'll either go, yes,

488
00:17:20,959 --> 00:17:21,678
no or maybe.

489
00:17:22,717 --> 00:17:25,284
If you go maybe, okay great. Well, I

490
00:17:25,284 --> 00:17:27,111
can kind of elaborate a bit if it's

491
00:17:27,111 --> 00:17:28,779
no, that's fine, You're gonna tell me what

492
00:17:28,779 --> 00:17:30,845
it really is. And if I am spot

493
00:17:30,845 --> 00:17:31,004
on,

494
00:17:31,734 --> 00:17:33,562
well we've kind of dealt with that, you

495
00:17:33,562 --> 00:17:34,380
then feel

496
00:17:35,469 --> 00:17:38,172
see and heard and understood that I'm taking

497
00:17:38,172 --> 00:17:40,341
the effort, the the energy to

498
00:17:41,445 --> 00:17:44,644
understand the world, the situation, this particular

499
00:17:45,096 --> 00:17:45,596
negotiation

500
00:17:45,969 --> 00:17:47,160
from your perspective.

501
00:17:47,795 --> 00:17:49,755
Even if I think Peter, you're being an

502
00:17:50,193 --> 00:17:51,330
absolute pain

503
00:17:51,707 --> 00:17:54,918
and you're overthinking it, and you've been unreasonable

504
00:17:55,135 --> 00:17:55,454
yourself.

505
00:17:56,251 --> 00:17:57,208
It doesn't matter.

506
00:17:58,338 --> 00:18:00,193
I need to park my own

507
00:18:00,650 --> 00:18:02,802
desire to to prove I'm right and you're

508
00:18:02,802 --> 00:18:03,302
wrong

509
00:18:03,838 --> 00:18:05,432
to allow my ego to call the shots.

510
00:18:05,592 --> 00:18:06,723
I need to put that 1 sign to

511
00:18:06,723 --> 00:18:09,057
go, peter... I'm gonna demonstrate. I'm just gonna

512
00:18:09,355 --> 00:18:10,174
show you

513
00:18:11,189 --> 00:18:12,407
that I understand

514
00:18:13,104 --> 00:18:15,416
the the... Through your lens so to speak

515
00:18:15,416 --> 00:18:18,063
where we find. Cells. And it's so powerful,

516
00:18:18,462 --> 00:18:18,962
particularly

517
00:18:20,056 --> 00:18:22,050
if you're with where they're at.

518
00:18:22,767 --> 00:18:24,601
Honestly, but it's... Again it's like then the

519
00:18:24,601 --> 00:18:27,248
things it's it's a muscle. You've gotta trade

520
00:18:27,248 --> 00:18:27,748
it

521
00:18:28,205 --> 00:18:29,481
and the more you do it the easier

522
00:18:29,481 --> 00:18:30,040
it becomes.

523
00:18:31,396 --> 00:18:32,693
Great insights this

524
00:18:33,071 --> 00:18:35,720
necessity to ensure that the person across the

525
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:36,460
the table

526
00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,880
is seen heard understood. These are the basic

527
00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,039
ingredients ultimately for trust, which you notice is

528
00:18:42,039 --> 00:18:43,099
the the currency

529
00:18:43,653 --> 00:18:46,384
for for these kinds of discussions that establishing

530
00:18:46,441 --> 00:18:49,251
trust is the pathway towards a successful

531
00:18:49,627 --> 00:18:51,777
negotiation. Can you maybe elaborate further on that

532
00:18:51,777 --> 00:18:52,175
as well?

533
00:18:52,749 --> 00:18:54,688
Yeah. And again, I... What I found so

534
00:18:54,987 --> 00:18:57,065
intriguing about the stories you tell is,

535
00:18:57,704 --> 00:19:00,342
again, the necessity to build trust in all

536
00:19:00,342 --> 00:19:03,474
sorts of scenarios, including where we're, in so

537
00:19:03,474 --> 00:19:04,595
many of your negotiations,

538
00:19:05,634 --> 00:19:06,994
it would seem like it would be very

539
00:19:06,994 --> 00:19:09,315
difficult to find a a pathway to trust.

540
00:19:10,449 --> 00:19:10,928
Without trust,

541
00:19:11,727 --> 00:19:14,604
the hostages don't come out alive. And yet,

542
00:19:14,844 --> 00:19:16,841
let let's just have a look at look

543
00:19:16,841 --> 00:19:17,640
at the scenario.

544
00:19:18,294 --> 00:19:19,353
Hidden that for ransom

545
00:19:19,810 --> 00:19:20,050
negotiations,

546
00:19:20,768 --> 00:19:21,268
and

547
00:19:21,965 --> 00:19:24,918
in indeed cyber ex as well, and are

548
00:19:24,918 --> 00:19:25,716
the similar peril.

549
00:19:26,449 --> 00:19:28,944
It's the most level day the most unregulated

550
00:19:29,321 --> 00:19:30,220
un governed

551
00:19:30,997 --> 00:19:32,194
industries in the world.

552
00:19:32,752 --> 00:19:33,630
You could ever think of.

553
00:19:34,444 --> 00:19:36,601
If it can go wrong, it does go

554
00:19:36,601 --> 00:19:39,478
wrong and if we mess up ultimately sending

555
00:19:39,478 --> 00:19:42,115
the kidnapped side of things, people can die.

556
00:19:42,689 --> 00:19:44,607
So tends to focus the mind a little

557
00:19:44,607 --> 00:19:46,205
bit on what works and what doesn't.

558
00:19:47,324 --> 00:19:47,964
And yet,

559
00:19:48,603 --> 00:19:50,302
there is a 93

560
00:19:50,361 --> 00:19:51,900
percent chance of success

561
00:19:52,371 --> 00:19:54,300
of the hostages coming back

562
00:19:54,753 --> 00:19:55,650
if we

563
00:19:56,261 --> 00:19:57,714
enter into and follow

564
00:19:58,325 --> 00:19:58,825
the

565
00:19:59,199 --> 00:19:59,357
negotiation.

566
00:20:00,008 --> 00:20:02,549
93 percent. Now they're there... Not a hundred

567
00:20:02,549 --> 00:20:05,433
percent, but there's still really good odds

568
00:20:06,204 --> 00:20:08,213
for success in what is

569
00:20:08,604 --> 00:20:09,104
unregulated

570
00:20:09,483 --> 00:20:10,942
uncovered, highly dangerous

571
00:20:11,481 --> 00:20:13,958
type of situation. And the reason why such

572
00:20:13,958 --> 00:20:16,695
a high success rate and consistently so

573
00:20:17,009 --> 00:20:18,786
over many, many, many decades

574
00:20:19,563 --> 00:20:22,276
is because the trust is in place. For

575
00:20:22,276 --> 00:20:24,191
example, if I hand over,

576
00:20:25,164 --> 00:20:26,461
4000000 dollars

577
00:20:26,838 --> 00:20:28,274
for the release of Peter,

578
00:20:29,072 --> 00:20:30,826
I need a trust that the connectors are

579
00:20:30,826 --> 00:20:32,740
going to stick to their part of the

580
00:20:32,740 --> 00:20:34,176
bargain and release you.

581
00:20:34,829 --> 00:20:36,504
As supposed to just take the money and

582
00:20:36,504 --> 00:20:36,903
kill you.

583
00:20:37,621 --> 00:20:40,093
Or or release you then can you again

584
00:20:40,093 --> 00:20:40,891
a week later.

585
00:20:41,529 --> 00:20:43,842
But equally trust works the other way where

586
00:20:43,842 --> 00:20:46,168
they need to trust me that I'm not

587
00:20:46,168 --> 00:20:48,478
going to look to craft the money,

588
00:20:49,036 --> 00:20:49,832
ambush them,

589
00:20:50,549 --> 00:20:51,107
kill them,

590
00:20:51,919 --> 00:20:53,671
even arrest them, this is in the private

591
00:20:53,671 --> 00:20:54,946
sector in in the when I was in

592
00:20:54,946 --> 00:20:57,096
the police, we would absolutely go after the

593
00:20:57,096 --> 00:20:58,849
bad guys and look to arrest them. But

594
00:20:58,849 --> 00:21:00,681
in the private sector where most of my

595
00:21:00,681 --> 00:21:01,134
experience

596
00:21:01,574 --> 00:21:03,969
actually was, we weren't interested in that. That

597
00:21:03,969 --> 00:21:05,028
was just about

598
00:21:05,486 --> 00:21:08,141
working and supporting the families and the companies

599
00:21:08,599 --> 00:21:10,195
for the safe and time and release of

600
00:21:10,195 --> 00:21:10,730
of the host.

601
00:21:11,965 --> 00:21:13,479
But that trust, it takes time.

602
00:21:14,515 --> 00:21:16,347
You. And the only way you build that

603
00:21:16,347 --> 00:21:16,847
trust

604
00:21:17,304 --> 00:21:17,804
is

605
00:21:18,513 --> 00:21:19,013
through

606
00:21:19,546 --> 00:21:19,785
empathy,

607
00:21:20,818 --> 00:21:22,987
and you really can empathize properly

608
00:21:23,679 --> 00:21:25,348
if you take the time to listen,

609
00:21:26,477 --> 00:21:27,614
to listen deeply

610
00:21:28,069 --> 00:21:28,967
without judgment

611
00:21:30,219 --> 00:21:31,891
to suspend your own... As I said your

612
00:21:31,891 --> 00:21:33,483
own assumptions, your own judgment,

613
00:21:34,373 --> 00:21:37,553
and really looked to understand where the site

614
00:21:37,553 --> 00:21:38,984
is coming from. And so I call it

615
00:21:38,984 --> 00:21:42,164
level 5 listening. And that listening is you're

616
00:21:42,164 --> 00:21:42,982
not waiting

617
00:21:43,849 --> 00:21:45,845
to speak. I mean, I'm I'm guilty that

618
00:21:45,845 --> 00:21:47,521
just as much as the next person, but

619
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,676
I'm conscious of it is when someone's talking,

620
00:21:50,235 --> 00:21:52,092
you're already framing your

621
00:21:52,724 --> 00:21:55,441
your follow on, and sometimes you're leaving interrupt

622
00:21:55,441 --> 00:21:57,118
the other person so you could get your

623
00:21:57,118 --> 00:21:57,837
point across.

624
00:21:58,636 --> 00:21:59,616
Or you're just

625
00:22:00,408 --> 00:22:02,721
waiting or you're listening so you can re

626
00:22:02,721 --> 00:22:03,699
butt their arguments

627
00:22:04,236 --> 00:22:06,070
or maybe you... You're not really listening at

628
00:22:06,070 --> 00:22:09,100
all and you're thinking about the Amazon delivery

629
00:22:09,100 --> 00:22:11,180
that you're waiting for or what you've gotta

630
00:22:11,180 --> 00:22:13,799
do after this conversation. And so if we

631
00:22:13,799 --> 00:22:15,387
can get all the way down to to

632
00:22:15,387 --> 00:22:16,736
till level 5 and then in the book,

633
00:22:16,895 --> 00:22:17,950
I actually talk

634
00:22:18,338 --> 00:22:20,085
in lots more detail about those levels.

635
00:22:21,037 --> 00:22:22,148
At level 5,

636
00:22:23,021 --> 00:22:25,164
you're listening to their point of view.

637
00:22:26,133 --> 00:22:28,441
You're listening to almost what is not being

638
00:22:28,441 --> 00:22:28,679
said.

639
00:22:29,714 --> 00:22:31,465
Just as much as what is being said,

640
00:22:31,703 --> 00:22:33,636
such as is an inc

641
00:22:34,250 --> 00:22:35,858
between the words and the tone and the

642
00:22:36,097 --> 00:22:39,607
Behavior perhaps. Is something not quite right there,

643
00:22:40,325 --> 00:22:42,398
but you're never gonna pick that up. Those

644
00:22:42,398 --> 00:22:42,898
subtle

645
00:22:43,674 --> 00:22:45,052
if you're just waiting

646
00:22:45,444 --> 00:22:48,232
to talk yourself. And by listening at that

647
00:22:48,232 --> 00:22:49,586
level, it's hard work.

648
00:22:50,383 --> 00:22:52,295
But if listening at that level, not just

649
00:22:52,295 --> 00:22:54,069
with kid, but maybe

650
00:22:54,938 --> 00:22:56,847
you give some really constructive,

651
00:22:57,484 --> 00:22:57,802
directs,

652
00:22:59,154 --> 00:23:00,745
feedback in the workplace, perhaps.

653
00:23:01,874 --> 00:23:03,328
Or some other form of

654
00:23:03,782 --> 00:23:04,282
challenging

655
00:23:04,657 --> 00:23:05,611
conversation you have to have,

656
00:23:06,327 --> 00:23:09,349
in the office. It's that listening, deem em

657
00:23:09,349 --> 00:23:09,849
emphasizing

658
00:23:10,239 --> 00:23:12,306
which enables you to build rapport.

659
00:23:13,101 --> 00:23:15,644
And then and only then you earn the

660
00:23:15,644 --> 00:23:16,144
right

661
00:23:16,678 --> 00:23:19,381
to start influencing and persuading because you've built

662
00:23:19,381 --> 00:23:21,862
that trust up. You haven't just rushed to

663
00:23:21,862 --> 00:23:22,896
try and problem solve.

664
00:23:23,532 --> 00:23:25,601
And so it does take, better a time

665
00:23:25,601 --> 00:23:27,271
to get there, but it's well worth spending

666
00:23:27,271 --> 00:23:27,930
the time

667
00:23:28,639 --> 00:23:30,074
because then because the when you've earn the

668
00:23:30,074 --> 00:23:30,393
trust,

669
00:23:31,031 --> 00:23:33,285
it gives you that currency with which

670
00:23:33,663 --> 00:23:34,061
to then,

671
00:23:35,018 --> 00:23:37,012
not unless it make demands, but make requests

672
00:23:37,012 --> 00:23:39,184
of the other side. And to start looking

673
00:23:39,184 --> 00:23:42,065
to maybe nudge or influence or persuade them

674
00:23:42,065 --> 00:23:42,544
to do something.

675
00:23:43,825 --> 00:23:45,744
And I I found your your 5 levels

676
00:23:45,744 --> 00:23:48,386
of listening super saying It just to to

677
00:23:48,386 --> 00:23:48,703
to

678
00:23:49,417 --> 00:23:50,924
enlighten our listeners and viewers,

679
00:23:51,717 --> 00:23:53,304
the the 5 levels are listening for gist.

680
00:23:54,669 --> 00:23:56,892
Listening to rebuke, and and often, we... It's

681
00:23:56,892 --> 00:23:58,742
sort of this first 2 where we linger

682
00:23:58,798 --> 00:24:00,387
too often as we are quote unquote listening.

683
00:24:00,625 --> 00:24:03,008
Then listening for logic is level 3, level

684
00:24:03,008 --> 00:24:05,096
4 listening for emotion. And then finally, as

685
00:24:05,096 --> 00:24:08,368
you mentioned, level 5, listening for points of

686
00:24:08,368 --> 00:24:10,145
view. And III

687
00:24:10,204 --> 00:24:12,454
really enjoyed the way in which you describe

688
00:24:12,454 --> 00:24:14,054
those in the book and then Necessity to

689
00:24:14,054 --> 00:24:16,134
get to level 5, especially when when talking

690
00:24:16,134 --> 00:24:16,794
about critical

691
00:24:17,414 --> 00:24:18,534
negotiations such as this.

692
00:24:19,575 --> 00:24:20,775
As you as you've gone through,

693
00:24:21,669 --> 00:24:24,066
negotiations and hostage situations, I realize every 1

694
00:24:24,066 --> 00:24:25,743
of them is a bit different, but these

695
00:24:25,743 --> 00:24:26,723
are not fast

696
00:24:27,102 --> 00:24:29,431
negotiations. They take time. And can you talk

697
00:24:29,431 --> 00:24:31,285
of bit about the element of time

698
00:24:32,138 --> 00:24:34,129
when it comes to negotiations. I think for,

699
00:24:34,209 --> 00:24:35,881
you, almost anyone who goes into it? 1

700
00:24:35,881 --> 00:24:37,155
hopes that of course that it is both

701
00:24:37,155 --> 00:24:39,235
fast and and that our point of view

702
00:24:39,473 --> 00:24:42,330
wins needless to say. But, neither of those

703
00:24:42,330 --> 00:24:44,473
should be seen as fore on conclusions and

704
00:24:44,473 --> 00:24:46,974
probably even are going to be possible. So

705
00:24:47,035 --> 00:24:47,994
can you talk a bit about the element

706
00:24:47,994 --> 00:24:48,795
of time as part of this?

707
00:24:49,994 --> 00:24:52,555
Time can be your friend in a negotiation.

708
00:24:52,714 --> 00:24:54,394
When it's business or for for hostages,

709
00:24:55,129 --> 00:24:56,406
what we'd always need to do is by

710
00:24:56,406 --> 00:24:58,002
time because if we can...

711
00:24:58,720 --> 00:24:59,757
Well, first of all, let me take a

712
00:24:59,757 --> 00:25:01,832
step back. With... There's a saying hurry up

713
00:25:01,832 --> 00:25:02,391
from wait.

714
00:25:03,363 --> 00:25:05,590
Anyone who's ever said the military will understand.

715
00:25:06,385 --> 00:25:08,454
Quick quick, quick hurry Hurry up. Alright. And

716
00:25:08,454 --> 00:25:09,806
now we just need to wait. It's someone,

717
00:25:09,965 --> 00:25:10,999
why did we have to hurry in the

718
00:25:10,999 --> 00:25:13,160
first place. But the logic behind that is,

719
00:25:14,034 --> 00:25:15,861
in the certainly the first 20 hours of

720
00:25:15,861 --> 00:25:16,497
a kidnapping,

721
00:25:17,212 --> 00:25:19,532
we wanna get everything in place. We wanna

722
00:25:19,532 --> 00:25:22,079
get alongside the family, the company, we wanna

723
00:25:22,079 --> 00:25:23,136
set up the phone

724
00:25:23,751 --> 00:25:24,251
and

725
00:25:24,706 --> 00:25:25,683
discuss a strategy,

726
00:25:26,059 --> 00:25:28,390
etcetera, etcetera. And that puts us in a

727
00:25:28,390 --> 00:25:29,109
great place.

728
00:25:29,990 --> 00:25:32,890
Even if just from a a nervous system

729
00:25:33,029 --> 00:25:35,190
perspective feeling we've got an element of control

730
00:25:35,190 --> 00:25:38,153
there. It enables us to then have far

731
00:25:38,153 --> 00:25:38,653
better

732
00:25:39,507 --> 00:25:39,666
negotiation.

733
00:25:40,382 --> 00:25:40,882
So

734
00:25:41,337 --> 00:25:42,634
we wanna buy time

735
00:25:43,009 --> 00:25:43,509
because

736
00:25:44,218 --> 00:25:47,184
all the research. All the research shows that

737
00:25:48,196 --> 00:25:50,128
our emotions can

738
00:25:51,060 --> 00:25:52,333
particularly high emotions,

739
00:25:53,063 --> 00:25:55,705
can be reduced. So particularly if we're angry

740
00:25:56,077 --> 00:25:57,426
if we highly emo,

741
00:25:58,298 --> 00:25:59,909
time allows us to

742
00:26:00,297 --> 00:26:01,013
to reduce.

743
00:26:01,809 --> 00:26:04,457
And the more we can reduce the anxiety

744
00:26:04,672 --> 00:26:05,172
stress

745
00:26:05,866 --> 00:26:06,184
overwhelm.

746
00:26:06,820 --> 00:26:08,421
I over days and weeks.

747
00:26:09,847 --> 00:26:12,329
That then enables objective rational

748
00:26:13,335 --> 00:26:13,835
thinking

749
00:26:14,619 --> 00:26:17,596
feeling and decision making and action taking

750
00:26:17,974 --> 00:26:19,972
to to come to to the forefront.

751
00:26:20,770 --> 00:26:21,464
And so

752
00:26:22,061 --> 00:26:24,288
That's that's the strategy that's the approach.

753
00:26:25,401 --> 00:26:26,140
But when

754
00:26:26,514 --> 00:26:27,491
negotiations lasts

755
00:26:28,264 --> 00:26:28,980
many weeks,

756
00:26:30,028 --> 00:26:31,302
and even a few months,

757
00:26:31,859 --> 00:26:33,234
you can't do this

758
00:26:33,928 --> 00:26:35,679
12/14/1618

759
00:26:35,679 --> 00:26:37,532
hours a day. You just burn out

760
00:26:38,164 --> 00:26:39,845
And so 1 of the things I would

761
00:26:39,845 --> 00:26:41,384
emphasize and my very first

762
00:26:41,684 --> 00:26:43,464
conversations when I sit down with a client

763
00:26:44,004 --> 00:26:44,744
would be

764
00:26:45,299 --> 00:26:47,240
we need to come up with a sustainable

765
00:26:47,619 --> 00:26:48,420
battle with.

766
00:26:50,019 --> 00:26:51,000
And that means

767
00:26:51,460 --> 00:26:53,474
eventually, we wanna get to the place the

768
00:26:53,474 --> 00:26:55,653
point where we'll say to the kin,

769
00:26:56,191 --> 00:26:57,630
we will be available between,

770
00:26:58,749 --> 00:27:01,626
I dunno let's say, 2 and 4PM every

771
00:27:01,626 --> 00:27:02,665
afternoon to speak to.

772
00:27:03,395 --> 00:27:05,695
But outside of that time, the phone is

773
00:27:05,695 --> 00:27:07,439
gonna be switched off. And the and people

774
00:27:07,439 --> 00:27:09,024
go 1 you... We can't turn the phone

775
00:27:09,024 --> 00:27:11,817
off, yes, we can This this is a

776
00:27:11,817 --> 00:27:12,635
business deal

777
00:27:13,169 --> 00:27:14,441
just like you could do this in your

778
00:27:14,441 --> 00:27:15,474
wider business sense.

779
00:27:16,348 --> 00:27:18,256
You... Because when you're not on the phone

780
00:27:18,256 --> 00:27:19,528
in that 2 hour window.

781
00:27:20,339 --> 00:27:21,716
It enables you to

782
00:27:22,253 --> 00:27:25,522
get some rest, recover, exercise, sleep, eat,

783
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:26,820
have

784
00:27:27,357 --> 00:27:29,531
conversations about the strategy? Has it going

785
00:27:29,843 --> 00:27:31,514
what are our outcomes and objectives.

786
00:27:31,991 --> 00:27:33,366
And again, it just balances

787
00:27:34,536 --> 00:27:36,525
from, you know, rather than the fight flight

788
00:27:36,525 --> 00:27:37,343
or freeze

789
00:27:38,449 --> 00:27:39,802
element of the nervous system,

790
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:41,871
and we wanna calm be down into the...

791
00:27:42,667 --> 00:27:44,976
Reapply the brake pedal and just balance it

792
00:27:44,976 --> 00:27:46,090
out a bit more really.

793
00:27:46,824 --> 00:27:48,362
And that just means we can

794
00:27:49,220 --> 00:27:49,939
go for longer.

795
00:27:50,658 --> 00:27:52,436
We can have a more sustainable

796
00:27:54,423 --> 00:27:56,095
negotiation rather than just burning again. And I've

797
00:27:56,095 --> 00:27:57,152
been there where

798
00:27:57,686 --> 00:28:00,493
where the the the brother of a, hostage

799
00:28:00,964 --> 00:28:02,642
He wanted to he was a younger brother,

800
00:28:02,802 --> 00:28:04,559
and he obviously saw this as his moment

801
00:28:04,559 --> 00:28:06,397
to shine that his elder brother being taken.

802
00:28:06,877 --> 00:28:08,096
And he wanted to

803
00:28:08,970 --> 00:28:11,289
Head up, the Crisis management team. He was

804
00:28:11,289 --> 00:28:13,130
head of the family business, and he also

805
00:28:13,130 --> 00:28:14,890
wanted to be the communicator he was speaking

806
00:28:14,890 --> 00:28:16,009
with the kid kidnapping.

807
00:28:16,583 --> 00:28:18,172
And he was using his own personal mobile

808
00:28:18,172 --> 00:28:19,443
phone. As you can see whether this is

809
00:28:19,443 --> 00:28:21,770
probably going out is every

810
00:28:22,144 --> 00:28:25,321
notification, every ping, every message. Your email, on

811
00:28:25,321 --> 00:28:27,009
his phone thoughts on the kid.

812
00:28:27,808 --> 00:28:29,106
And because he couldn't

813
00:28:29,805 --> 00:28:30,364
switch off.

814
00:28:31,243 --> 00:28:33,741
He just burnt out very quickly, and

815
00:28:34,534 --> 00:28:36,609
it immediately ended in tragedy because he turned

816
00:28:36,609 --> 00:28:38,126
around to the kidnapping as 1 day they

817
00:28:38,126 --> 00:28:38,866
really really

818
00:28:39,403 --> 00:28:42,836
burnt out and threaten the kidnapping. Now, I

819
00:28:42,836 --> 00:28:43,336
about

820
00:28:43,888 --> 00:28:46,113
you Peter. That's never a good idea in

821
00:28:46,113 --> 00:28:47,804
my book. I I don't know if if.

822
00:28:48,258 --> 00:28:50,586
If anybody would thinking it would be and

823
00:28:51,134 --> 00:28:52,563
the kenneth has just turned around and said,

824
00:28:52,642 --> 00:28:54,469
right. We're gonna kill your brother and they

825
00:28:54,469 --> 00:28:54,786
hung up.

826
00:28:55,660 --> 00:28:58,518
And we didn't hear anything for 6 months.

827
00:28:59,329 --> 00:28:59,807
6 months.

828
00:29:00,445 --> 00:29:03,019
Can imagine the family dynamics, the

829
00:29:03,396 --> 00:29:06,348
the meal times, the rec elimination, the the

830
00:29:06,348 --> 00:29:08,262
the the emotions swirling,

831
00:29:09,154 --> 00:29:10,586
having made made that call.

832
00:29:11,381 --> 00:29:11,938
In the end,

833
00:29:13,052 --> 00:29:14,802
they they do reach back out. We do

834
00:29:14,802 --> 00:29:16,313
get get the brother back. But the point

835
00:29:16,313 --> 00:29:17,268
of that story is,

836
00:29:18,078 --> 00:29:20,063
is there unless you get a battle rhythm?

837
00:29:20,460 --> 00:29:22,444
Unless you look at this long term, it's

838
00:29:22,444 --> 00:29:24,112
not gonna end well for anybody, and this

839
00:29:24,112 --> 00:29:26,335
doesn't have to be up this be everyday

840
00:29:26,335 --> 00:29:26,652
business.

841
00:29:27,224 --> 00:29:29,305
Yes, you wanna be able to expand the

842
00:29:29,305 --> 00:29:30,265
window of tolerance.

843
00:29:31,224 --> 00:29:32,924
You know where you can be as

844
00:29:33,305 --> 00:29:35,565
calm as grounded as balanced

845
00:29:36,838 --> 00:29:39,555
centered as grounded as possible in the eye

846
00:29:39,555 --> 00:29:42,851
of the storm around you, make those decisions

847
00:29:43,803 --> 00:29:44,782
embrace the challenges

848
00:29:45,159 --> 00:29:47,392
and the objections and and the obstacles in

849
00:29:47,392 --> 00:29:47,871
your way.

850
00:29:48,589 --> 00:29:50,822
But know that if you go too far

851
00:29:50,822 --> 00:29:52,258
outside of that you need to bring it

852
00:29:52,258 --> 00:29:53,969
back, you need that time

853
00:29:54,508 --> 00:29:55,727
within which to

854
00:29:56,346 --> 00:29:57,405
recharge, rejuvenate,

855
00:29:58,104 --> 00:30:00,181
catch your breath and and take stock of

856
00:30:00,181 --> 00:30:00,980
where where you're at.

857
00:30:02,031 --> 00:30:03,860
What a powerful example that is thank you

858
00:30:03,860 --> 00:30:04,735
for sharing it Scott.

859
00:30:06,008 --> 00:30:08,019
Your book also gets into

860
00:30:08,807 --> 00:30:11,352
some of the misconceptions in your mind between

861
00:30:11,352 --> 00:30:14,796
the the normal right brain, let brain characteristics,

862
00:30:15,504 --> 00:30:17,965
you you actually talk about, they're being left

863
00:30:17,965 --> 00:30:19,950
brain characteristics in the right brain and vice

864
00:30:19,950 --> 00:30:21,300
versa as well. Can you talk a bit

865
00:30:21,300 --> 00:30:23,286
about some of your your analysis of that,

866
00:30:23,444 --> 00:30:24,421
and it's it's

867
00:30:24,889 --> 00:30:26,319
pertinent to our conversation here.

868
00:30:27,034 --> 00:30:29,180
Yeah. Was was fascinated when I discovered it,

869
00:30:29,577 --> 00:30:32,120
and hey for 10:15 years also a bit

870
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:33,415
more... I was

871
00:30:34,122 --> 00:30:35,178
I had a practical

872
00:30:35,710 --> 00:30:38,729
understanding of this without knowing the neuroscience all

873
00:30:38,729 --> 00:30:40,952
the or the sides behind it. And it's

874
00:30:40,952 --> 00:30:41,929
only 1 I

875
00:30:42,239 --> 00:30:44,016
really kinda stepped away from

876
00:30:44,633 --> 00:30:48,085
doing the negotiations and my interest in neuroscience

877
00:30:48,144 --> 00:30:50,953
really developed. And. I came cross. Again, J

878
00:30:50,953 --> 00:30:52,312
bulk Taylor, as you mentioned.

879
00:30:53,910 --> 00:30:55,109
Who talks about these,

880
00:30:56,068 --> 00:30:59,025
basically, the brain is divided to 4 parts.

881
00:30:59,759 --> 00:31:00,797
You know, she had a stroke.

882
00:31:02,633 --> 00:31:05,428
And she realized that actually, it's not as

883
00:31:05,428 --> 00:31:08,062
as simple as left brain, right brain one's

884
00:31:08,062 --> 00:31:09,340
rational, one's emotional.

885
00:31:10,310 --> 00:31:13,175
You know, both sides of the brain have

886
00:31:13,175 --> 00:31:13,891
both elements.

887
00:31:15,324 --> 00:31:16,995
And the point that she was making and

888
00:31:17,075 --> 00:31:18,689
I found fascinating was

889
00:31:19,239 --> 00:31:20,698
you can almost choose

890
00:31:21,797 --> 00:31:24,354
your archetype. You can choose what part of

891
00:31:24,354 --> 00:31:26,272
your brain is in charge in that moment.

892
00:31:26,592 --> 00:31:27,311
For example,

893
00:31:28,922 --> 00:31:30,670
you know, you could read something called social

894
00:31:30,670 --> 00:31:31,146
media,

895
00:31:31,544 --> 00:31:33,292
or there could be something happening in the

896
00:31:33,292 --> 00:31:34,961
workplace and you'll go, okay. Well,

897
00:31:36,647 --> 00:31:38,561
Am I am I being driven by emotions

898
00:31:38,561 --> 00:31:39,938
to? Which part of my

899
00:31:40,634 --> 00:31:42,707
brain is really calling the shots here. Do

900
00:31:42,867 --> 00:31:44,802
I need to bring some more rational

901
00:31:46,150 --> 00:31:48,380
attention to this. And it and her in

902
00:31:48,380 --> 00:31:48,858
a book,

903
00:31:50,053 --> 00:31:52,999
whole brain living, she actually names these 4

904
00:31:52,999 --> 00:31:55,344
parts of her brain. Now I'm not saying

905
00:31:56,115 --> 00:31:57,625
everybody's gonna do that. I mean, the the

906
00:31:57,625 --> 00:31:59,055
the principles behind this are.

907
00:31:59,849 --> 00:32:00,905
If you can

908
00:32:01,692 --> 00:32:03,386
just spend the time to

909
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:04,977
again get curious

910
00:32:05,591 --> 00:32:06,489
as to

911
00:32:07,660 --> 00:32:09,729
what are your triggers really? How do you...

912
00:32:09,888 --> 00:32:11,255
What are what are the patterns, What are

913
00:32:11,255 --> 00:32:13,797
the themes and patterns that when x happens,

914
00:32:15,068 --> 00:32:17,133
how does that show up for you? Is

915
00:32:17,133 --> 00:32:18,428
there always a

916
00:32:19,771 --> 00:32:22,021
tension in the shoulders, for example, or

917
00:32:23,510 --> 00:32:24,783
a churning in the stomach.

918
00:32:25,340 --> 00:32:27,568
It'll show in your body somewhere usually.

919
00:32:28,380 --> 00:32:30,779
And the more awareness is self awareness she

920
00:32:30,779 --> 00:32:31,340
can bring.

921
00:32:32,140 --> 00:32:34,140
Means you go, okay. I notice every time,

922
00:32:34,779 --> 00:32:36,860
I have a phone call or Zoom meeting,

923
00:32:37,019 --> 00:32:39,587
whatever it is, with this particular client.

924
00:32:40,304 --> 00:32:42,079
I just feel the same

925
00:32:42,615 --> 00:32:45,642
thing of frustration, my eager brain kicks in,

926
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,785
I'm already looking There's almost like a conflict

927
00:32:49,081 --> 00:32:50,376
underneath the surface here

928
00:32:50,991 --> 00:32:52,901
and get curious of what, how interesting.

929
00:32:53,617 --> 00:32:55,703
Alright. Well, what does that mean? Okay. Well,

930
00:32:55,862 --> 00:32:57,559
how do I need to approach this

931
00:32:58,733 --> 00:33:00,430
conversation this meeting that's called

932
00:33:01,047 --> 00:33:01,547
differently.

933
00:33:02,084 --> 00:33:04,896
And that's essentially what what the principles are

934
00:33:05,606 --> 00:33:07,037
about what she was mentioning, in know a

935
00:33:07,037 --> 00:33:09,025
book. And I just found that fascinating about,

936
00:33:09,660 --> 00:33:11,250
we can almost bring a different part of

937
00:33:11,250 --> 00:33:12,386
our personality

938
00:33:13,253 --> 00:33:15,720
to that situation depending on the context and

939
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:16,356
what's required.

940
00:33:17,311 --> 00:33:20,096
I I wanna pivot towards cyber ex another

941
00:33:20,096 --> 00:33:21,847
area in which you are expert, Scott.

942
00:33:22,498 --> 00:33:24,089
And talk a bit about how some of

943
00:33:24,089 --> 00:33:26,396
these ideas apply to that realm. And maybe

944
00:33:26,396 --> 00:33:27,987
you can talk a bit about the evolution

945
00:33:27,987 --> 00:33:28,726
of cyber

946
00:33:29,434 --> 00:33:32,072
your experience as well. Yeah. What what what

947
00:33:32,072 --> 00:33:34,469
are some of the nuances associated with that

948
00:33:34,469 --> 00:33:36,068
perhaps a a little bit different from some

949
00:33:36,068 --> 00:33:38,406
of the, you know, kidnapping situations, and other

950
00:33:38,465 --> 00:33:39,105
negotiations we described?

951
00:33:39,992 --> 00:33:41,126
I I know the

952
00:33:42,132 --> 00:33:44,986
cyber s world although also need the response

953
00:33:44,986 --> 00:33:48,338
to it. There there's it's it's divided. Some

954
00:33:48,338 --> 00:33:49,396
people believe

955
00:33:49,853 --> 00:33:50,172
yes,

956
00:33:50,809 --> 00:33:53,541
you need to enter into negotiation with the

957
00:33:53,759 --> 00:33:54,498
threat actor

958
00:33:55,209 --> 00:33:56,880
And there's other of people who firmly of

959
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:57,517
the belief that,

960
00:33:58,233 --> 00:34:00,064
no, you don't. That's the last you never

961
00:34:00,064 --> 00:34:00,564
ever

962
00:34:01,098 --> 00:34:02,872
engage with any of the these

963
00:34:03,247 --> 00:34:05,413
trade actors at at all. Particularly,

964
00:34:06,052 --> 00:34:08,547
I mean, the classic 1 study my experience

965
00:34:08,925 --> 00:34:11,240
would be, you know, a ransom wear attack,

966
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,555
for example. It's it's far gray.

967
00:34:14,130 --> 00:34:16,690
Then either, yes or no in terms of

968
00:34:16,690 --> 00:34:18,289
engaging with a threat actor. The end of

969
00:34:18,289 --> 00:34:20,210
day, you got a human being on the

970
00:34:20,210 --> 00:34:21,349
other end of the

971
00:34:21,650 --> 00:34:24,064
email or whatever means a communication you're using.

972
00:34:24,943 --> 00:34:25,443
And

973
00:34:26,781 --> 00:34:28,939
you still need to engage with them potential

974
00:34:28,939 --> 00:34:31,176
or have a decision within your crisis management

975
00:34:31,176 --> 00:34:32,315
team as to

976
00:34:32,869 --> 00:34:34,007
are we willing

977
00:34:35,102 --> 00:34:38,452
unable to enter into a conversation with the

978
00:34:38,452 --> 00:34:41,584
ex list? But that depends on what the

979
00:34:41,642 --> 00:34:44,043
situation you're facing because I remember,

980
00:34:44,757 --> 00:34:46,501
seen back a couple of years now, people

981
00:34:46,501 --> 00:34:48,667
businesses are certainly becoming far more

982
00:34:49,357 --> 00:34:49,912
aware of this.

983
00:34:51,198 --> 00:34:52,336
Somebody would have a

984
00:34:52,952 --> 00:34:56,220
a denial service attack or ransom attack. And

985
00:34:57,336 --> 00:34:58,474
I'd get on the phone

986
00:34:59,501 --> 00:35:01,878
with them. And I'd say, well, okay. How

987
00:35:01,878 --> 00:35:02,512
much is the...

988
00:35:03,304 --> 00:35:05,206
How much is the demand for? Oh, we

989
00:35:05,206 --> 00:35:05,760
we don't know.

990
00:35:06,730 --> 00:35:06,890
Okay.

991
00:35:07,849 --> 00:35:10,170
And how much it is costing you in

992
00:35:10,170 --> 00:35:12,410
lost revenue a day and an opportunity costs

993
00:35:12,410 --> 00:35:13,050
and everything else.

994
00:35:13,944 --> 00:35:14,342
Oh,

995
00:35:15,059 --> 00:35:16,414
about 12000000 dollars.

996
00:35:17,609 --> 00:35:19,761
Okay. And how long is it gonna be

997
00:35:19,761 --> 00:35:20,978
before you could

998
00:35:21,767 --> 00:35:23,436
potentially get backup and running.

999
00:35:24,072 --> 00:35:25,583
Oh, I don't know it's gonna be probably

1000
00:35:25,583 --> 00:35:27,808
least another the week or so. Okay. And

1001
00:35:27,808 --> 00:35:28,683
how the backups well,

1002
00:35:29,335 --> 00:35:31,172
the backups we're not quite sure how successful

1003
00:35:31,172 --> 00:35:33,090
the backups have been from the servers.

1004
00:35:34,208 --> 00:35:34,368
Okay.

1005
00:35:35,487 --> 00:35:37,005
And in quite a few cases,

1006
00:35:37,339 --> 00:35:39,257
the demand will be in the early days

1007
00:35:39,257 --> 00:35:41,335
would be for maybe 4 or 5000 euros

1008
00:35:41,335 --> 00:35:44,132
or dollars. 1 of the considerations has to

1009
00:35:44,132 --> 00:35:45,272
be there of,

1010
00:35:45,971 --> 00:35:46,210
well,

1011
00:35:47,104 --> 00:35:48,241
even though there's no guarantees.

1012
00:35:49,653 --> 00:35:51,724
It may be worth considering paying the 4

1013
00:35:51,724 --> 00:35:54,353
5000 euros, the alicia you get the the

1014
00:35:54,353 --> 00:35:56,208
keys back that you can start to

1015
00:35:56,997 --> 00:35:57,316
decrypt,

1016
00:35:58,510 --> 00:36:00,659
your your data again, and that might help.

1017
00:36:00,977 --> 00:36:02,035
Again, there's no guarantees.

1018
00:36:02,490 --> 00:36:04,161
Particularly it's costing you of quote million dollars

1019
00:36:04,161 --> 00:36:06,413
a day. It's having that conversation. It depends

1020
00:36:06,413 --> 00:36:08,890
also in my experience of the risk appetite

1021
00:36:08,890 --> 00:36:10,328
of the company. What does its really mean?

1022
00:36:10,488 --> 00:36:11,527
If it's a law firm,

1023
00:36:12,246 --> 00:36:13,845
and we've had a few cases of that.

1024
00:36:14,338 --> 00:36:14,838
Where

1025
00:36:15,293 --> 00:36:16,667
confidential client sensitive

1026
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:17,620
information

1027
00:36:18,074 --> 00:36:19,687
had been stolen

1028
00:36:20,061 --> 00:36:21,253
or medical data.

1029
00:36:22,303 --> 00:36:24,378
Now that that that's a different ballgame than

1030
00:36:24,378 --> 00:36:26,452
if it's, you know, you're making widgets in

1031
00:36:26,452 --> 00:36:29,499
a factory somewhere, Not discounting that. But obviously,

1032
00:36:29,659 --> 00:36:32,855
hey, And has different implications. And again, when

1033
00:36:32,855 --> 00:36:34,612
we do negotiate when we do into into

1034
00:36:34,612 --> 00:36:36,311
the conversation with the ex.

1035
00:36:37,343 --> 00:36:38,535
Again, it's to buy time.

1036
00:36:39,251 --> 00:36:41,000
What we wanna do is wanna buy time,

1037
00:36:41,159 --> 00:36:42,748
we wanna slow everything down,

1038
00:36:43,543 --> 00:36:46,190
so the company so the organization can

1039
00:36:46,818 --> 00:36:47,296
look at.

1040
00:36:48,571 --> 00:36:51,519
Okay. Can we lay terms, can we sweep

1041
00:36:51,519 --> 00:36:53,272
the system and plug the gap and make

1042
00:36:53,272 --> 00:36:55,902
sure there's there's nothing left in there? That's

1043
00:36:55,902 --> 00:36:58,376
gonna he that's gonna harm us as well

1044
00:36:58,376 --> 00:37:00,120
as preventing anything else from happening a gate,

1045
00:37:00,437 --> 00:37:02,894
and we can resume businesses as as usual.

1046
00:37:04,258 --> 00:37:05,713
And I think the other factor

1047
00:37:06,170 --> 00:37:08,980
miss Cyber distortion compared to kidnapping

1048
00:37:09,674 --> 00:37:10,174
negotiations

1049
00:37:10,630 --> 00:37:11,130
is

1050
00:37:11,506 --> 00:37:12,405
reputation matters

1051
00:37:13,514 --> 00:37:14,014
perhaps

1052
00:37:14,391 --> 00:37:16,169
more in a cyber ex

1053
00:37:17,185 --> 00:37:18,143
than the kidnapping.

1054
00:37:19,500 --> 00:37:21,437
I think the General public shareholders

1055
00:37:22,148 --> 00:37:22,648
customers

1056
00:37:23,655 --> 00:37:25,559
would accept their company being hacked.

1057
00:37:26,748 --> 00:37:29,207
But how they deal with it, they don't

1058
00:37:29,207 --> 00:37:29,945
have long

1059
00:37:30,334 --> 00:37:33,467
to prove to demonstrate their credibility and capability

1060
00:37:33,686 --> 00:37:34,483
to resolve it.

1061
00:37:35,202 --> 00:37:37,457
And I think if you mess up

1062
00:37:38,644 --> 00:37:39,937
a cyber ex

1063
00:37:40,467 --> 00:37:44,218
then your credibility, your reputation is more likely

1064
00:37:44,907 --> 00:37:47,171
to be impact and say cannot

1065
00:37:47,627 --> 00:37:49,937
negotiation goes slightly wrong because people don't necessarily

1066
00:37:49,937 --> 00:37:52,726
expect no, somebody gets working gets kidnapped,

1067
00:37:53,442 --> 00:37:54,956
and they and they don't come back.

1068
00:37:55,529 --> 00:37:57,601
Accurate in a in a bizarre way, that's

1069
00:37:57,601 --> 00:37:57,919
almost...

1070
00:37:58,637 --> 00:38:00,389
Okay. Well, it's just 1 of those things

1071
00:38:00,389 --> 00:38:02,541
because it's so highly dangerous. You know, a

1072
00:38:02,541 --> 00:38:04,077
company messes a per poseidon

1073
00:38:04,612 --> 00:38:04,771
negotiation,

1074
00:38:05,504 --> 00:38:07,597
then actually, they have less

1075
00:38:08,372 --> 00:38:09,350
room to

1076
00:38:10,523 --> 00:38:11,262
to come

1077
00:38:11,797 --> 00:38:12,297
lead

1078
00:38:12,992 --> 00:38:14,188
some kind of innocence there.

1079
00:38:15,158 --> 00:38:19,048
Given how stressful these negotiations are certainly certainly

1080
00:38:19,048 --> 00:38:20,239
for you as well I would imagine.

1081
00:38:20,954 --> 00:38:22,859
What what sorts of practices do you follow

1082
00:38:22,859 --> 00:38:23,756
in order to

1083
00:38:24,303 --> 00:38:26,368
of try to relieve the the stress or

1084
00:38:26,368 --> 00:38:28,512
what do you recommend to others, to do

1085
00:38:28,512 --> 00:38:30,180
the same. You you mentioned it is important

1086
00:38:30,180 --> 00:38:32,325
to get rest and and not be... Happens

1087
00:38:32,325 --> 00:38:33,539
to be all consuming

1088
00:38:34,407 --> 00:38:36,319
that that to use time in some ways

1089
00:38:36,956 --> 00:38:39,266
to to renew oneself even in in in

1090
00:38:39,266 --> 00:38:41,338
what might seem like a constant storm.

1091
00:38:42,055 --> 00:38:43,385
Talk about a bit about some of the

1092
00:38:43,505 --> 00:38:45,102
this that you use that that have been

1093
00:38:45,102 --> 00:38:46,460
effective for you to relieve stress.

1094
00:38:47,419 --> 00:38:48,239
1 of the

1095
00:38:48,937 --> 00:38:50,556
tools or techniques that

1096
00:38:51,188 --> 00:38:52,939
I've used over the years and again. I

1097
00:38:52,939 --> 00:38:53,735
learned the hardware.

1098
00:38:54,293 --> 00:38:55,964
I've went things missing work out.

1099
00:38:56,681 --> 00:38:58,215
It's a 3 step process

1100
00:38:59,004 --> 00:39:01,630
that I used regularly in my personal life

1101
00:39:01,630 --> 00:39:03,461
as well as professionally. And I call it

1102
00:39:03,461 --> 00:39:06,405
the immediate action drill, the I a drill.

1103
00:39:07,456 --> 00:39:09,607
To 3 step process that can be used

1104
00:39:09,607 --> 00:39:11,438
proactively so say you're about to go and

1105
00:39:11,438 --> 00:39:12,576
give a big key

1106
00:39:13,111 --> 00:39:14,864
or you're gonna give a presentation to the

1107
00:39:14,864 --> 00:39:16,470
board or you're looking for pitching for some

1108
00:39:16,470 --> 00:39:17,821
work or whatever it is. So you can

1109
00:39:17,821 --> 00:39:18,878
do it proactively,

1110
00:39:19,649 --> 00:39:21,080
or in the heat the moment,

1111
00:39:22,113 --> 00:39:22,828
a colleague,

1112
00:39:23,559 --> 00:39:25,231
or or some you're read that in the

1113
00:39:25,231 --> 00:39:27,461
media just happen or or and you've noticed

1114
00:39:27,461 --> 00:39:29,692
it and it really triggers you. It really

1115
00:39:29,692 --> 00:39:31,045
kind of winds you up. So you can

1116
00:39:31,045 --> 00:39:33,211
do it reactive as well. And the 3

1117
00:39:33,211 --> 00:39:34,326
step process is this.

1118
00:39:35,282 --> 00:39:35,840
Step 1,

1119
00:39:36,637 --> 00:39:38,070
it's interrupt the pattern.

1120
00:39:38,548 --> 00:39:40,460
Just like my colleague in the very first

1121
00:39:40,460 --> 00:39:43,020
case I was involved in. He interrupted my

1122
00:39:43,020 --> 00:39:45,402
pattern by putting his hand on my shoulder.

1123
00:39:46,276 --> 00:39:48,023
And for me now, it could be something

1124
00:39:48,023 --> 00:39:48,999
as simple as

1125
00:39:50,104 --> 00:39:52,102
taking a couple of breaths or if I'm

1126
00:39:52,102 --> 00:39:54,840
sat down or stand up, maybe go outside

1127
00:39:55,298 --> 00:39:57,376
is whatever works for you, but it's it's

1128
00:39:57,376 --> 00:39:58,755
preventing you from

1129
00:39:59,228 --> 00:40:00,842
go down that rabbit warren

1130
00:40:01,535 --> 00:40:03,922
of blaming naming and shaming and they're going

1131
00:40:03,922 --> 00:40:05,853
on the loop inside your head about

1132
00:40:06,244 --> 00:40:07,065
how dare

1133
00:40:07,364 --> 00:40:09,284
Peter say this or do this. And I

1134
00:40:09,284 --> 00:40:11,385
can't believe they've not done that and

1135
00:40:12,244 --> 00:40:13,864
it doesn't serve anybody

1136
00:40:14,179 --> 00:40:17,289
really long term. However, justified you may feel

1137
00:40:17,289 --> 00:40:18,645
that you are. We could come on say

1138
00:40:18,645 --> 00:40:20,639
a second. So the first thing is interrupt

1139
00:40:20,639 --> 00:40:22,394
the pattern. It could be you doing some

1140
00:40:22,394 --> 00:40:23,670
jumping jacks in the corner.

1141
00:40:24,322 --> 00:40:25,379
Whatever it is

1142
00:40:25,755 --> 00:40:27,505
to to shift your state.

1143
00:40:28,539 --> 00:40:29,835
The second step

1144
00:40:30,210 --> 00:40:32,780
is to ride the wave

1145
00:40:33,329 --> 00:40:35,895
So any surfers listening or any skier

1146
00:40:36,587 --> 00:40:37,087
where

1147
00:40:38,255 --> 00:40:40,242
for about 90 seconds, 2 minutes.

1148
00:40:40,734 --> 00:40:41,768
From that stimulus.

1149
00:40:42,484 --> 00:40:44,393
You've got the cortisol all, You've got the

1150
00:40:44,393 --> 00:40:46,620
adrenaline pumping around your body, and that's the

1151
00:40:46,620 --> 00:40:49,670
vital flight. Freeze kicking in. You can't really

1152
00:40:49,670 --> 00:40:51,109
do much about that.

1153
00:40:51,989 --> 00:40:54,549
But that month, those 90 seconds, 2 minutes

1154
00:40:54,549 --> 00:40:55,849
are usually where

1155
00:40:56,404 --> 00:40:58,401
unless it's just me, obviously, by doubt it

1156
00:40:58,401 --> 00:41:00,638
is, where you've settled or done something thinking

1157
00:41:00,638 --> 00:41:02,795
you use later regret. Usually,

1158
00:41:03,609 --> 00:41:05,364
It's in those first couple of minutes of

1159
00:41:05,364 --> 00:41:06,083
something happening.

1160
00:41:06,722 --> 00:41:08,179
What I've learned to do is

1161
00:41:08,557 --> 00:41:09,696
be the feeling

1162
00:41:10,233 --> 00:41:11,351
but drop the story.

1163
00:41:12,164 --> 00:41:14,885
It doesn't matter why it's happening in that

1164
00:41:14,885 --> 00:41:15,364
moment.

1165
00:41:16,085 --> 00:41:18,005
I just need to feel the emotion what

1166
00:41:18,085 --> 00:41:20,565
I'm feeling not judging and not push it

1167
00:41:20,565 --> 00:41:21,065
away

1168
00:41:22,017 --> 00:41:23,605
not kind of wish it was different.

1169
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:25,512
I just need to feel it. And I

1170
00:41:25,512 --> 00:41:27,179
after about 90 seconds, 2 minutes,

1171
00:41:28,371 --> 00:41:30,459
allow it to subside allow it to dissipate

1172
00:41:31,643 --> 00:41:32,997
and then I can move on to step

1173
00:41:32,997 --> 00:41:33,497
3

1174
00:41:34,511 --> 00:41:36,923
because my nervous system is been more regulated

1175
00:41:36,981 --> 00:41:37,539
and balanced,

1176
00:41:38,574 --> 00:41:40,247
I can ask better questions.

1177
00:41:41,618 --> 00:41:42,815
So I'll interrupt the pattern.

1178
00:41:43,453 --> 00:41:45,607
I'll ride the wave and I ask better

1179
00:41:45,607 --> 00:41:48,022
questions. And those questions can be

1180
00:41:48,494 --> 00:41:50,158
Well they need to be empowering ones, but

1181
00:41:50,158 --> 00:41:51,347
it can be something like,

1182
00:41:52,297 --> 00:41:54,121
okay. What was all that about? What what

1183
00:41:54,121 --> 00:41:55,651
what does this mean now? Where

1184
00:41:56,039 --> 00:41:58,346
where I am right now. What's the opportunity?

1185
00:41:58,505 --> 00:41:59,301
What am I missing?

1186
00:41:59,858 --> 00:42:02,245
What Our Need to find out perhaps? What's

1187
00:42:02,245 --> 00:42:03,996
another way I'm looking at this? What's the

1188
00:42:03,996 --> 00:42:04,473
opportunity?

1189
00:42:05,684 --> 00:42:07,445
But I wouldn't never be able to ask

1190
00:42:07,445 --> 00:42:08,905
those questions genuinely

1191
00:42:09,605 --> 00:42:11,224
if I'm stuck in my story

1192
00:42:12,005 --> 00:42:13,625
on a dis disappearing mindset

1193
00:42:14,005 --> 00:42:14,644
at step 2.

1194
00:42:15,377 --> 00:42:16,807
So interrupt the pattern,

1195
00:42:18,476 --> 00:42:20,304
feel the feeling dropped the story by riding

1196
00:42:20,304 --> 00:42:21,973
the wave for 90 seconds, 2 minutes.

1197
00:42:22,783 --> 00:42:24,930
And then then only when we get into

1198
00:42:24,930 --> 00:42:25,884
a better mindset,

1199
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:28,110
can we ask those better questions?

1200
00:42:28,667 --> 00:42:31,791
And I guarantee it literally every time

1201
00:42:32,419 --> 00:42:33,952
it brings you the clarity,

1202
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:36,176
and even the certainty

1203
00:42:36,709 --> 00:42:38,297
that I would never get, the people would

1204
00:42:38,297 --> 00:42:40,539
never get it. If they hadn't to had

1205
00:42:40,539 --> 00:42:42,451
a... I guess the discipline to to follow

1206
00:42:42,451 --> 00:42:44,203
those 3 steps. But, again, as I mentioned

1207
00:42:44,203 --> 00:42:45,954
several times now, it's like a muscle.

1208
00:42:46,671 --> 00:42:47,968
You know, it's really hard

1209
00:42:48,279 --> 00:42:51,381
the first few 10:50, 20, 50, hundred times

1210
00:42:51,381 --> 00:42:52,574
you do it, but the more you do

1211
00:42:52,574 --> 00:42:54,006
it, these becomes.

1212
00:42:55,375 --> 00:42:56,974
Scott Walker. Thank you so much for for

1213
00:42:56,974 --> 00:42:58,434
joining me today. I would have a fascinating

1214
00:42:58,815 --> 00:43:01,614
conversation emblem Of the remarkable career you've you've

1215
00:43:01,614 --> 00:43:03,135
had so far and the the great work

1216
00:43:03,135 --> 00:43:05,148
that you're doing on the behalf of individuals

1217
00:43:05,148 --> 00:43:05,628
families,

1218
00:43:06,347 --> 00:43:06,587
corporations.

1219
00:43:07,306 --> 00:43:08,905
Thank you for sharing our insights with me

1220
00:43:08,905 --> 00:43:08,984
today.

1221
00:43:09,864 --> 00:43:10,822
You're welcome. Thank you.