Dealing with the actual client, the customer is
relatively
straightforward. But internally, within the business within the
organization,
there are often lots of,
competing priorities,
internal politics, silo thinking, and there's no different
in life or death. Kidnapped that
negotiation. Dealing with the kin was relatively
straightforward and in easy
because they're just businessman
looking to get the best deal at the
end of the day.
Welcome to.
I'm your host Peter He. My guest today
is Scott Walker. Scott served as a Scotland
yard detective for 16 years investigating all aspects
of serious and organized crime, including kidnapping and
terrorism.
He also deployed overseas as part of a
military intelligence
interrogation team to inter interject and high value
targets.
When he left the police in 20 15,
Scott joined a crisis in risk management consultancy
that specialize from kidnapped for ransom negotiations and
resolving other similar peril around the world.
Scott continues to advise, train, and coach leaders,
at all levels, organizations who wish to enhance
their resilience,
emotional intelligence and communication skills. He helps companies
build a culture of resilience and develop engaged,
fulfilled, purpose driven and productive teams.
In March of 20 24, Scott publishes his
first book, order out of chaos, win every
negotiation, thrive in a diversity and become a
world class communicator.
Scott, welcome to. It's great to speak with
you today.
Thanks, Pete. It's great to be here.
Well, I I wanna talk about your beginnings.
Mentioned in the introduction there that you were
for 16 years a, police detective. And Wonder
what inspired you go into that that work.
Yeah. I was always
attracted
to that line of work for some reason
really...
He was a kid. He was a young
kid. I was always asking why
much to the
frustration probably of parents and grandparents.
And I always I've avoid been curious as
to what makes
human beings do what they do.
And as a police officers are detective,
you get a a ring side seat into
into 1 all of. Into all levels of
society,
into all manner of behavior,
and and particularly from the psychological perspective as
well. And I just fascinated.
Plus, I mean, I enjoyed it every single
day, pretty much I actually got paid
to go after bad guys,
give
innocent good people of voice.
To stand up for them, stand up for
the victims,
and feel as if I was doing something
meaningful and worthwhile.
And as I said, I loved every moment
of it. And
yeah, had a very varied and interesting career
for sure. That that... That's quite apparent. And
toward the end of your time,
with Scott Yard, you were invited to participate
in kidnapping in ransom cases. And I wonder
does that opportunity present itself? What what were
you doing previously
to to make it clear that that was
something that you might be good at? As
I I have to imagine that it's not
everyone that is invited to do so.
Again, Always
done jobs
within my career the police that I'd really
enjoyed, whether or night it was counter terrorism
work,
intelligence gathering, Covid ops,
and 1 of my roles before that was
as a
inform handler, an agent handler, you know, in
America, you call them Cis,
confidential inform.
My job there was to
identify, recruit and handle those kind of individuals.
To again it was all about
how do you influence and persuade and motivate
and and
bring about some kind of cooperation with other
people?
Particularly if they don't don't wanna do so
initially.
So of that lend me down 1 path
and then 1 day I in a in
the place canteen,
in the police playstation on, I bumped into
a a former body of mine,
there were known for years.
And at this point, I've being promoted a
couple of times.
And the only danger I was facing
was getting paper cuts from all the crime
reports.
Or
a sore side from sat down beyond a
desk or day. And he he was just
regalia me over a coffee of... He'd spent
the last 4 days or so
helping to negotiate the release
of a young man from the clutches of
quite a vicious Albania
organized Crime gang.
I just sat there, pete over over the
coffee thinking.
I want I want some of that. I
wanna get involved in that.
And
But graciously, he he made introductions to the
unit that's
oversaw or the selection and training of of
that line of work.
And
I applied, Went through the process
and they came out the other side.
And threw myself into those 3AM phone calls
when you gotta go and
get alongside the family and and help negotiate
the lease of their loved ones.
And is there is there an apprentice apprenticeship
to this? Is there somebody by your side
in the early stages as you're learning how
to do this? I mean, I, as I
as I think about the the range of
of,
skills 1 needs, and understanding of human psychology,
risk management, calculus of various kinds,
and we'll get into some of the of
your deeper learnings
as we go through this conversation no doubt.
III recognize some of this must have been
part of what you were doing already,
but the application of this must have been
different as well.
Yeah. Absolutely.
Y was assigned
a far more experienced
negotiator colleague
in in these cases. Because like anything. You
know, you're gonna get good in business. You
need the flying hours. He don't become a
Ceo,
successful Ceo,
6 months out of high school. You know,
yeah, if you're gonna do a startup up
I guess. But if you wanna if you
wanna be the Head, a large multinational organization
or whatever it is, then you're gonna have
to get those flying out. You know, and
you normally get mentors
along the way who can guide you. Not
always remember my
very first
negotiation. Very first, kidnapping
I deployed to. I hadn't quite mastered the
skill set completely around
about emotional self regulation, for example. You know,
you know, if you can regulate
what you're feeling,
that can help you know the decision making
and the actions you take.
And to cut up very long story short,
I'm with this family, we'd have the
their young son taken by a gang, and
he was in a pretty bad way. He
was being tortured and, you know, the deadline
was fast approaching.
I I was getting really frustrated with the
family.
As to why they wouldn't listen to my
wise
say advice, you know, the old age of
on know, 28 or whatever was at the
time.
And
I ended
being really direct. Borderline probably very rude actually.
And almost shouting with the family.
And that is until I found, I felt
this hand on my shoulder.
And there was an imp unacceptable squeeze
of my far more
experienced
esteem
colleague next next to me who
thankfully was able to enter interrupt my pattern
and then allow me to just sit and
watch a real master class as to
how do you bring about
influence,
persuasion,
cooperation,
collaboration.
When the stakes can't get any higher,
and the emotions and and everything else are
running running super high.
Yeah. You've noted
that the number 1 skill of of a
top negotiator is the ability to self regulate
emotions. You've added to that that highly developed
sensory acuity is also
very important. And clearly, that's a description of
that.
It's something that... And clearly, as you point
out, it's something, and and as your experience
bear, bears out,
it's something that can be learned as well.
Can you talk a bit about some of
the steps towards,
being able to self regulate one's emotions and
also to heighten their sensory acuity, acuity? Practice
makes
a mate... To make perfect. It makes permanent
though. And it's like anything, it's it's a
muscle.
You know that emotionally intelligence muscle, the sensory
acuity, the regulation,
You know, just like you go to the
gym to get strong or fitting. You don't
just go once and then expecting to walk
out looking like on arnold Sc and egg
or somebody.
You have to practice
and fail often. And
what it really is a couple of principles
or concepts that can really help us all
to
to mask this really.
And the first 1 is in any form
of
communication, particularly when it really counts
particularly those difficult
conversations. And, you know, we've all got 1
of those conversations we put off,
or we're quite re to
engaging in,
and that is really, it's not about you.
Again, the Stephen C lion a first seek
to understand before being understood.
That still stands a test of time decades
later from when he pending his book.
And it's true though, if we can enter
into
a situation and
negotiation
with far more curiosity than of some assumption.
If I'm gonna... Like I'm really interested in
what's going on for Peter right now.
He's at the table for this business deal
or he leading on a project or whatever
it is. I need to know what he's
really going on for Peter. How does he
see this situation? How does he see me?
Etcetera and how can I best bring about
some kind of collaboration cooperation or indeed some
behavioral change with Peter?
And it's no good if I'm
if I'm be like I wasn't in that
first, kidnapping case of dealt with,
allowing my
emotions to overall the common sense in the
and the national decision making. Even though we
make decisions emotionally and justify them rationally afterwards,
we can still look to bring
an element of control
over that as much as possible. It's not
easy,
simple, but not easy.
And so yet, it's it's looking at it.
It's not about me. It's about the other
person.
Gotta to get my own state where needs
to be my own emotions in check, first
of all,
bring that curiosity
while an assumption. And
I can elaborate on some of the other
steps a bit later on, perhaps,
about where where do we go with that?
How do we really then bring about
Peter, for example, to make a decision or
change mind or do some kind of behavioral
change.
I I know that the,
the insight enjoyable Taylor from her,
stroke for from her her Ted talk that
we're feeling creatures that think as opposed to
the opposite as meaningful for you and and
and certainly, you're describing that
just there. Yeah. That's. Do We you know,
we're emotional creatures that think.
Not thinking creatures that feel. And you rightly
said that Peter it's,
we're designed as as the species as an
organism so to speak. We're designed to experience
emotion. It's it's how we interpret the world
around us. And unilaterally could experience exactly the
same situation or set of circumstances.
But we could experience different completely different
emotions,
which will then impact
our decision making, which then impacts the actions
that we take as a
So the more we can get ahead of
that curve so to speak. The more we
can
identify and get to tune with what we're
feeling what we what we're experiencing.
And crucially what the other person is,
then we can start to think about... Well,
I we could bring about so form of
success here where
everybody can walk away you fitting, like, they've
got what they need from this conversation or
it. Stable or whatever it is.
And you've spoken about and and even alluded
already in the story
of that excruciating, first negotiation managing the chaos
within the chaos.
That's... When you're going through your negotiations, naturally
they are chaotic.
But but even, the the your your clients,
the the the who are you... Who you
are negotiating on behalf of or who you
are counseling for the negotiation, there's chaos on
that side as well. And so it almost
feels like, you know, 3 or 4 dimensional
chess as you think about, the moves of
the person across the table, but also the
move on your side of the table as
well and managing across all of that. Talk
a bit about that that insight, the managing
of the chaos within the chaos.
Yeah. And I'm sure your your views and
listeners will relate to this, dealing with the
actual client, the customer is relatively
straightforward.
Relatively easy.
But internally, within the business within the
organization, there are often lots of egos
competing priorities,
internal politics, silo thinking,
all of that stuff that can get in
the way
a really
effective
providing value to the customer to the client.
And there's no different in life or death
kidnapped
negotiations.
Dealing with the kin was relatively and, relatively
straightforward and easy
because they're just businessman
looking to get the best deal at the
end of the day.
But 80 percent of my time at least
was spent on the crisis within the crisis
was
usually the crisis management team, the senior leadership
team, the board,
the exec level team,
that that was where my
skills and my ability and my energy and
my attention was really brought to bear there,
was being able to navigate
through, as I said, the ego, the internal
politics, the
the the the shifting energies, the the things
that are unspoken
the culture in the
organization.
And,
yeah. There's sometimes I was just happy and
glad to get on the call with the
bad guys, because I thought, right, this... I
can kinda of control that,
but navigating that that crisis within the crisis
is
Yeah. It's something that's across every industry and
sector. I'm sure. And anyone listening as I
said, in their business. I'm sure most of
their time will be spent
dealing whether, firefight fighting or more, longer term
issues
internally more than externally facing.
1 of the things that shines through through
so many of your stories, Scott as the
importance of empathy. I mean, so often, the
negotiations that you're part of are really black
and white. There is crystal clear as to
who was good and who was bad, who
was who is wrong.
And yet finding empathy
and using Empathy rather, but in finding out
the motivation, is so critically important. If you
get carried away with the fact that the
person on the other side is a bad
person,
then your ability to negotiate is is hindered
at a minimum.
Talk a bit about the necessity for for
for the even in situations where, you know,
on the face of it, it might be
might seem so difficult to to find it.
What if
emotional self regulation is the number 1 skill,
of all the best negotiators in the world
irrespective of what you're negotiating over.
The the step that's just closer all the
skill that's just closely follows that is the
ability to empathize
effectively.
And people sometimes
misunderstand what empathy is and what it isn't.
It's a doing word. We do empathy.
It's not where we take on the emotions
or the feeling of the other side or
the other person.
And it's certainly not about
agreeing with
a qui,
honing or supporting
whatever it is you're looking to empathize.
Or who with. For example,
I would have to empathize and I did
on every single
kidnapping or cyber or other form of distortion
case. That to empathize with the other side.
And just like in business,
you have to be able to empathize with
people who you don't get on with or
share anything in common.
And particularly with the the clients or the
customers.
And it's really
simply a case of
you being able
to
demonstrate your understanding
of where
near the side is at.
And that is particularly powerful
if you disagree
on something. Or there's a bit of a
gap there.
Maybe you and I are on opposite size
of the negotiating table, Peter.
And we're... We've hit a bit of an
impasse where we can't quite agree on how
to close this deal. And so
empathy and action here would look something like
Peter is okay for just share with you
where I think you're at right now with
this deal.
You're not gonna say no. You're gonna say,
yeah, sure. And I'll say semi on the
lines of...
Well, for from my perspective, it it seems
like you think that we're dragging our heels
on this. And that we're looking to the
cut you
and maybe almost trying to pull a fast
1 and do out of a significant part
of the market share here. Mean I've just
made that up, but you can kinda get
a sense of and you'll either go, yes,
no or maybe.
If you go maybe, okay great. Well, I
can kind of elaborate a bit if it's
no, that's fine, You're gonna tell me what
it really is. And if I am spot
on,
well we've kind of dealt with that, you
then feel
see and heard and understood that I'm taking
the effort, the the energy to
understand the world, the situation, this particular
negotiation
from your perspective.
Even if I think Peter, you're being an
absolute pain
and you're overthinking it, and you've been unreasonable
yourself.
It doesn't matter.
I need to park my own
desire to to prove I'm right and you're
wrong
to allow my ego to call the shots.
I need to put that 1 sign to
go, peter... I'm gonna demonstrate. I'm just gonna
show you
that I understand
the the... Through your lens so to speak
where we find. Cells. And it's so powerful,
particularly
if you're with where they're at.
Honestly, but it's... Again it's like then the
things it's it's a muscle. You've gotta trade
it
and the more you do it the easier
it becomes.
Great insights this
necessity to ensure that the person across the
the table
is seen heard understood. These are the basic
ingredients ultimately for trust, which you notice is
the the currency
for for these kinds of discussions that establishing
trust is the pathway towards a successful
negotiation. Can you maybe elaborate further on that
as well?
Yeah. And again, I... What I found so
intriguing about the stories you tell is,
again, the necessity to build trust in all
sorts of scenarios, including where we're, in so
many of your negotiations,
it would seem like it would be very
difficult to find a a pathway to trust.
Without trust,
the hostages don't come out alive. And yet,
let let's just have a look at look
at the scenario.
Hidden that for ransom
negotiations,
and
in indeed cyber ex as well, and are
the similar peril.
It's the most level day the most unregulated
un governed
industries in the world.
You could ever think of.
If it can go wrong, it does go
wrong and if we mess up ultimately sending
the kidnapped side of things, people can die.
So tends to focus the mind a little
bit on what works and what doesn't.
And yet,
there is a 93
percent chance of success
of the hostages coming back
if we
enter into and follow
the
negotiation.
93 percent. Now they're there... Not a hundred
percent, but there's still really good odds
for success in what is
unregulated
uncovered, highly dangerous
type of situation. And the reason why such
a high success rate and consistently so
over many, many, many decades
is because the trust is in place. For
example, if I hand over,
4000000 dollars
for the release of Peter,
I need a trust that the connectors are
going to stick to their part of the
bargain and release you.
As supposed to just take the money and
kill you.
Or or release you then can you again
a week later.
But equally trust works the other way where
they need to trust me that I'm not
going to look to craft the money,
ambush them,
kill them,
even arrest them, this is in the private
sector in in the when I was in
the police, we would absolutely go after the
bad guys and look to arrest them. But
in the private sector where most of my
experience
actually was, we weren't interested in that. That
was just about
working and supporting the families and the companies
for the safe and time and release of
of the host.
But that trust, it takes time.
You. And the only way you build that
trust
is
through
empathy,
and you really can empathize properly
if you take the time to listen,
to listen deeply
without judgment
to suspend your own... As I said your
own assumptions, your own judgment,
and really looked to understand where the site
is coming from. And so I call it
level 5 listening. And that listening is you're
not waiting
to speak. I mean, I'm I'm guilty that
just as much as the next person, but
I'm conscious of it is when someone's talking,
you're already framing your
your follow on, and sometimes you're leaving interrupt
the other person so you could get your
point across.
Or you're just
waiting or you're listening so you can re
butt their arguments
or maybe you... You're not really listening at
all and you're thinking about the Amazon delivery
that you're waiting for or what you've gotta
do after this conversation. And so if we
can get all the way down to to
till level 5 and then in the book,
I actually talk
in lots more detail about those levels.
At level 5,
you're listening to their point of view.
You're listening to almost what is not being
said.
Just as much as what is being said,
such as is an inc
between the words and the tone and the
Behavior perhaps. Is something not quite right there,
but you're never gonna pick that up. Those
subtle
if you're just waiting
to talk yourself. And by listening at that
level, it's hard work.
But if listening at that level, not just
with kid, but maybe
you give some really constructive,
directs,
feedback in the workplace, perhaps.
Or some other form of
challenging
conversation you have to have,
in the office. It's that listening, deem em
emphasizing
which enables you to build rapport.
And then and only then you earn the
right
to start influencing and persuading because you've built
that trust up. You haven't just rushed to
try and problem solve.
And so it does take, better a time
to get there, but it's well worth spending
the time
because then because the when you've earn the
trust,
it gives you that currency with which
to then,
not unless it make demands, but make requests
of the other side. And to start looking
to maybe nudge or influence or persuade them
to do something.
And I I found your your 5 levels
of listening super saying It just to to
to
enlighten our listeners and viewers,
the the 5 levels are listening for gist.
Listening to rebuke, and and often, we... It's
sort of this first 2 where we linger
too often as we are quote unquote listening.
Then listening for logic is level 3, level
4 listening for emotion. And then finally, as
you mentioned, level 5, listening for points of
view. And III
really enjoyed the way in which you describe
those in the book and then Necessity to
get to level 5, especially when when talking
about critical
negotiations such as this.
As you as you've gone through,
negotiations and hostage situations, I realize every 1
of them is a bit different, but these
are not fast
negotiations. They take time. And can you talk
of bit about the element of time
when it comes to negotiations. I think for,
you, almost anyone who goes into it? 1
hopes that of course that it is both
fast and and that our point of view
wins needless to say. But, neither of those
should be seen as fore on conclusions and
probably even are going to be possible. So
can you talk a bit about the element
of time as part of this?
Time can be your friend in a negotiation.
When it's business or for for hostages,
what we'd always need to do is by
time because if we can...
Well, first of all, let me take a
step back. With... There's a saying hurry up
from wait.
Anyone who's ever said the military will understand.
Quick quick, quick hurry Hurry up. Alright. And
now we just need to wait. It's someone,
why did we have to hurry in the
first place. But the logic behind that is,
in the certainly the first 20 hours of
a kidnapping,
we wanna get everything in place. We wanna
get alongside the family, the company, we wanna
set up the phone
and
discuss a strategy,
etcetera, etcetera. And that puts us in a
great place.
Even if just from a a nervous system
perspective feeling we've got an element of control
there. It enables us to then have far
better
negotiation.
So
we wanna buy time
because
all the research. All the research shows that
our emotions can
particularly high emotions,
can be reduced. So particularly if we're angry
if we highly emo,
time allows us to
to reduce.
And the more we can reduce the anxiety
stress
overwhelm.
I over days and weeks.
That then enables objective rational
thinking
feeling and decision making and action taking
to to come to to the forefront.
And so
That's that's the strategy that's the approach.
But when
negotiations lasts
many weeks,
and even a few months,
you can't do this
12/14/1618
hours a day. You just burn out
And so 1 of the things I would
emphasize and my very first
conversations when I sit down with a client
would be
we need to come up with a sustainable
battle with.
And that means
eventually, we wanna get to the place the
point where we'll say to the kin,
we will be available between,
I dunno let's say, 2 and 4PM every
afternoon to speak to.
But outside of that time, the phone is
gonna be switched off. And the and people
go 1 you... We can't turn the phone
off, yes, we can This this is a
business deal
just like you could do this in your
wider business sense.
You... Because when you're not on the phone
in that 2 hour window.
It enables you to
get some rest, recover, exercise, sleep, eat,
have
conversations about the strategy? Has it going
what are our outcomes and objectives.
And again, it just balances
from, you know, rather than the fight flight
or freeze
element of the nervous system,
and we wanna calm be down into the...
Reapply the brake pedal and just balance it
out a bit more really.
And that just means we can
go for longer.
We can have a more sustainable
negotiation rather than just burning again. And I've
been there where
where the the the brother of a, hostage
He wanted to he was a younger brother,
and he obviously saw this as his moment
to shine that his elder brother being taken.
And he wanted to
Head up, the Crisis management team. He was
head of the family business, and he also
wanted to be the communicator he was speaking
with the kid kidnapping.
And he was using his own personal mobile
phone. As you can see whether this is
probably going out is every
notification, every ping, every message. Your email, on
his phone thoughts on the kid.
And because he couldn't
switch off.
He just burnt out very quickly, and
it immediately ended in tragedy because he turned
around to the kidnapping as 1 day they
really really
burnt out and threaten the kidnapping. Now, I
about
you Peter. That's never a good idea in
my book. I I don't know if if.
If anybody would thinking it would be and
the kenneth has just turned around and said,
right. We're gonna kill your brother and they
hung up.
And we didn't hear anything for 6 months.
6 months.
Can imagine the family dynamics, the
the meal times, the rec elimination, the the
the the emotions swirling,
having made made that call.
In the end,
they they do reach back out. We do
get get the brother back. But the point
of that story is,
is there unless you get a battle rhythm?
Unless you look at this long term, it's
not gonna end well for anybody, and this
doesn't have to be up this be everyday
business.
Yes, you wanna be able to expand the
window of tolerance.
You know where you can be as
calm as grounded as balanced
centered as grounded as possible in the eye
of the storm around you, make those decisions
embrace the challenges
and the objections and and the obstacles in
your way.
But know that if you go too far
outside of that you need to bring it
back, you need that time
within which to
recharge, rejuvenate,
catch your breath and and take stock of
where where you're at.
What a powerful example that is thank you
for sharing it Scott.
Your book also gets into
some of the misconceptions in your mind between
the the normal right brain, let brain characteristics,
you you actually talk about, they're being left
brain characteristics in the right brain and vice
versa as well. Can you talk a bit
about some of your your analysis of that,
and it's it's
pertinent to our conversation here.
Yeah. Was was fascinated when I discovered it,
and hey for 10:15 years also a bit
more... I was
I had a practical
understanding of this without knowing the neuroscience all
the or the sides behind it. And it's
only 1 I
really kinda stepped away from
doing the negotiations and my interest in neuroscience
really developed. And. I came cross. Again, J
bulk Taylor, as you mentioned.
Who talks about these,
basically, the brain is divided to 4 parts.
You know, she had a stroke.
And she realized that actually, it's not as
as simple as left brain, right brain one's
rational, one's emotional.
You know, both sides of the brain have
both elements.
And the point that she was making and
I found fascinating was
you can almost choose
your archetype. You can choose what part of
your brain is in charge in that moment.
For example,
you know, you could read something called social
media,
or there could be something happening in the
workplace and you'll go, okay. Well,
Am I am I being driven by emotions
to? Which part of my
brain is really calling the shots here. Do
I need to bring some more rational
attention to this. And it and her in
a book,
whole brain living, she actually names these 4
parts of her brain. Now I'm not saying
everybody's gonna do that. I mean, the the
the principles behind this are.
If you can
just spend the time to
again get curious
as to
what are your triggers really? How do you...
What are what are the patterns, What are
the themes and patterns that when x happens,
how does that show up for you? Is
there always a
tension in the shoulders, for example, or
a churning in the stomach.
It'll show in your body somewhere usually.
And the more awareness is self awareness she
can bring.
Means you go, okay. I notice every time,
I have a phone call or Zoom meeting,
whatever it is, with this particular client.
I just feel the same
thing of frustration, my eager brain kicks in,
I'm already looking There's almost like a conflict
underneath the surface here
and get curious of what, how interesting.
Alright. Well, what does that mean? Okay. Well,
how do I need to approach this
conversation this meeting that's called
differently.
And that's essentially what what the principles are
about what she was mentioning, in know a
book. And I just found that fascinating about,
we can almost bring a different part of
our personality
to that situation depending on the context and
what's required.
I I wanna pivot towards cyber ex another
area in which you are expert, Scott.
And talk a bit about how some of
these ideas apply to that realm. And maybe
you can talk a bit about the evolution
of cyber
your experience as well. Yeah. What what what
are some of the nuances associated with that
perhaps a a little bit different from some
of the, you know, kidnapping situations, and other
negotiations we described?
I I know the
cyber s world although also need the response
to it. There there's it's it's divided. Some
people believe
yes,
you need to enter into negotiation with the
threat actor
And there's other of people who firmly of
the belief that,
no, you don't. That's the last you never
ever
engage with any of the these
trade actors at at all. Particularly,
I mean, the classic 1 study my experience
would be, you know, a ransom wear attack,
for example. It's it's far gray.
Then either, yes or no in terms of
engaging with a threat actor. The end of
day, you got a human being on the
other end of the
email or whatever means a communication you're using.
And
you still need to engage with them potential
or have a decision within your crisis management
team as to
are we willing
unable to enter into a conversation with the
ex list? But that depends on what the
situation you're facing because I remember,
seen back a couple of years now, people
businesses are certainly becoming far more
aware of this.
Somebody would have a
a denial service attack or ransom attack. And
I'd get on the phone
with them. And I'd say, well, okay. How
much is the...
How much is the demand for? Oh, we
we don't know.
Okay.
And how much it is costing you in
lost revenue a day and an opportunity costs
and everything else.
Oh,
about 12000000 dollars.
Okay. And how long is it gonna be
before you could
potentially get backup and running.
Oh, I don't know it's gonna be probably
least another the week or so. Okay. And
how the backups well,
the backups we're not quite sure how successful
the backups have been from the servers.
Okay.
And in quite a few cases,
the demand will be in the early days
would be for maybe 4 or 5000 euros
or dollars. 1 of the considerations has to
be there of,
well,
even though there's no guarantees.
It may be worth considering paying the 4
5000 euros, the alicia you get the the
keys back that you can start to
decrypt,
your your data again, and that might help.
Again, there's no guarantees.
Particularly it's costing you of quote million dollars
a day. It's having that conversation. It depends
also in my experience of the risk appetite
of the company. What does its really mean?
If it's a law firm,
and we've had a few cases of that.
Where
confidential client sensitive
information
had been stolen
or medical data.
Now that that that's a different ballgame than
if it's, you know, you're making widgets in
a factory somewhere, Not discounting that. But obviously,
hey, And has different implications. And again, when
we do negotiate when we do into into
the conversation with the ex.
Again, it's to buy time.
What we wanna do is wanna buy time,
we wanna slow everything down,
so the company so the organization can
look at.
Okay. Can we lay terms, can we sweep
the system and plug the gap and make
sure there's there's nothing left in there? That's
gonna he that's gonna harm us as well
as preventing anything else from happening a gate,
and we can resume businesses as as usual.
And I think the other factor
miss Cyber distortion compared to kidnapping
negotiations
is
reputation matters
perhaps
more in a cyber ex
than the kidnapping.
I think the General public shareholders
customers
would accept their company being hacked.
But how they deal with it, they don't
have long
to prove to demonstrate their credibility and capability
to resolve it.
And I think if you mess up
a cyber ex
then your credibility, your reputation is more likely
to be impact and say cannot
negotiation goes slightly wrong because people don't necessarily
expect no, somebody gets working gets kidnapped,
and they and they don't come back.
Accurate in a in a bizarre way, that's
almost...
Okay. Well, it's just 1 of those things
because it's so highly dangerous. You know, a
company messes a per poseidon
negotiation,
then actually, they have less
room to
to come
lead
some kind of innocence there.
Given how stressful these negotiations are certainly certainly
for you as well I would imagine.
What what sorts of practices do you follow
in order to
of try to relieve the the stress or
what do you recommend to others, to do
the same. You you mentioned it is important
to get rest and and not be... Happens
to be all consuming
that that to use time in some ways
to to renew oneself even in in in
what might seem like a constant storm.
Talk about a bit about some of the
this that you use that that have been
effective for you to relieve stress.
1 of the
tools or techniques that
I've used over the years and again. I
learned the hardware.
I've went things missing work out.
It's a 3 step process
that I used regularly in my personal life
as well as professionally. And I call it
the immediate action drill, the I a drill.
To 3 step process that can be used
proactively so say you're about to go and
give a big key
or you're gonna give a presentation to the
board or you're looking for pitching for some
work or whatever it is. So you can
do it proactively,
or in the heat the moment,
a colleague,
or or some you're read that in the
media just happen or or and you've noticed
it and it really triggers you. It really
kind of winds you up. So you can
do it reactive as well. And the 3
step process is this.
Step 1,
it's interrupt the pattern.
Just like my colleague in the very first
case I was involved in. He interrupted my
pattern by putting his hand on my shoulder.
And for me now, it could be something
as simple as
taking a couple of breaths or if I'm
sat down or stand up, maybe go outside
is whatever works for you, but it's it's
preventing you from
go down that rabbit warren
of blaming naming and shaming and they're going
on the loop inside your head about
how dare
Peter say this or do this. And I
can't believe they've not done that and
it doesn't serve anybody
really long term. However, justified you may feel
that you are. We could come on say
a second. So the first thing is interrupt
the pattern. It could be you doing some
jumping jacks in the corner.
Whatever it is
to to shift your state.
The second step
is to ride the wave
So any surfers listening or any skier
where
for about 90 seconds, 2 minutes.
From that stimulus.
You've got the cortisol all, You've got the
adrenaline pumping around your body, and that's the
vital flight. Freeze kicking in. You can't really
do much about that.
But that month, those 90 seconds, 2 minutes
are usually where
unless it's just me, obviously, by doubt it
is, where you've settled or done something thinking
you use later regret. Usually,
It's in those first couple of minutes of
something happening.
What I've learned to do is
be the feeling
but drop the story.
It doesn't matter why it's happening in that
moment.
I just need to feel the emotion what
I'm feeling not judging and not push it
away
not kind of wish it was different.
I just need to feel it. And I
after about 90 seconds, 2 minutes,
allow it to subside allow it to dissipate
and then I can move on to step
3
because my nervous system is been more regulated
and balanced,
I can ask better questions.
So I'll interrupt the pattern.
I'll ride the wave and I ask better
questions. And those questions can be
Well they need to be empowering ones, but
it can be something like,
okay. What was all that about? What what
what does this mean now? Where
where I am right now. What's the opportunity?
What am I missing?
What Our Need to find out perhaps? What's
another way I'm looking at this? What's the
opportunity?
But I wouldn't never be able to ask
those questions genuinely
if I'm stuck in my story
on a dis disappearing mindset
at step 2.
So interrupt the pattern,
feel the feeling dropped the story by riding
the wave for 90 seconds, 2 minutes.
And then then only when we get into
a better mindset,
can we ask those better questions?
And I guarantee it literally every time
it brings you the clarity,
and even the certainty
that I would never get, the people would
never get it. If they hadn't to had
a... I guess the discipline to to follow
those 3 steps. But, again, as I mentioned
several times now, it's like a muscle.
You know, it's really hard
the first few 10:50, 20, 50, hundred times
you do it, but the more you do
it, these becomes.
Scott Walker. Thank you so much for for
joining me today. I would have a fascinating
conversation emblem Of the remarkable career you've you've
had so far and the the great work
that you're doing on the behalf of individuals
families,
corporations.
Thank you for sharing our insights with me
today.
You're welcome. Thank you.