Kevin Oakley (00:01.48)
Welcome to another special guest episode of MarketProof Marketing. And today I have Brian Boero, the CEO of ThousandWatt and the, well, you're here, the better half of the founding team of Mark Davidson and Brian. That was a terrible, sarcastic, jokey way to enter this conversation. But now everyone knows how real this is. We just hit record and go.

Brian Boero (00:27.635)
Yeah, well, I am not the better half. Although my professional partnership I do think about much like my marriage. We do refer to each other as our work spouses. So yeah, the analogy works.

Kevin Oakley (00:43.818)
Exactly, yeah, two halves of the brain, right side, left side. Although, even though when I was at your event in Dallas back in April, I did find it interesting that you, in the green room we were talking and Brian said, you know, we might appear different on the outside, we're not really that different. So I thought that was an interesting insight. There you go.

Brian Boero (00:46.281)
That's right. That's right.

Brian Boero (00:56.127)
Yeah.

Brian Boero (00:59.603)
Yeah.

Yeah, we're not. It's just different user interface.

Kevin Oakley (01:09.154)
Well, Brian is on because one, he's gonna be speaking at the Online Sales and Marketing Summit in the fall in Chicago. So a little sneak preview of kind of what he's all about and how he thinks and all of that. And then also in All Access, we have a link to my talk at their event that I referenced in April as well.

Brian Boero (01:32.425)
But you should all watch. If you're watching this and have not watched Kevin's talk, was terrific. Really, really great.

Kevin Oakley (01:37.206)
It was so much fun to talk to a different audience. And that's also some of what we're gonna talk about today is as always, whenever we get a chance to overlap kind of what's happening in the pre-owned home section, I try to be nicer when Brian's on. I'm just kidding. And the new home space and Brian and his team obviously have incredible insights in all things real estate, but in particular, lots of.

Brian Boero (01:53.821)
You can say use time, it's okay.

Kevin Oakley (02:05.858)
lots of time and attention spent with general real estate agents and brokers among other partners. So Brian, what I wanted to do for those who were not able to attend your event, you kicked off with a fantastic illustration analogy that I'd love for you to share with everybody.

Brian Boero (02:26.463)
Sure, you know my view of our housing business ecosystem is, you know, look, it's been relatively good times for the last two, three years for home builders relative to us used home folks, but still, you know, it is an environment that's highly competitive, particularly on used homes, resale homes.

There are a million and a half realtors chasing four million transactions every year. That's a lot of mouths to feed. Plus you got, you know, technology, AI. You just have this sort of anxious environment in the world of residential real estate. And my analogy was to, uh, liken those participants in the residential real estate industry, um, to, uh, animals out in nature.

And if you think about, for example, what nervous zebras do out on the savanna when they sense danger, they glom together. You see that behavior with all kinds of animals, birds, ducks on the water, wildebeests on the plain. And when things get weird and nervous and people start getting skittish, they glom together.

Irony of that, of course, is that that presents a bigger and easier target for the predator. The predator being, course, metaphorically, whatever you might be worried about at the moment, your competition, AI, who knows what, right? So we tend to go on together when we should be at this point, blazing our own trail, finding our own path. And I related that to

brand strategy and marketing. And I imagine, Kevin, you can tell me if I'm wrong, that like residential real estate brokers and real estate agents, they'll tend to look around on all their branding and marketing. They'll kind of glom together because they look at, know, well, this agent or this company's winning with this, I'm going to do that, all glom together. And the effect is that they're not differentiated.

Brian Boero (04:43.968)
And when you have an undifferentiated industry, you become a bigger target for new entrants who come in and create difference. I'm just...

Kevin Oakley (04:52.61)
Yeah. Or I find you're just the weaker animal in the herd. Like one of the things I really don't understand is if there is a national production builder that's using a particular strategy or messaging and you're a local entrant, much smaller, you don't have the same cost of scale and you decide I'm going to do the same thing. It's like you're the animal with like one broken leg trying to hobble next to.

Brian Boero (04:56.953)
Right. Yeah.

Brian Boero (05:07.615)
Yeah.

Brian Boero (05:19.071)
Right? Absolutely. Absolutely. So whether you're doing the thing or, even in terms of marketing, I know enough about the new home world just having been around residential real estate for 30 years. You know, I mean, a lot of, a lot of builders do and say the same things and they merchandise their product in much the same way. Right? And that tendency towards glomming together.

I think is strong in both the new home and used home world as far as I can tell.

Kevin Oakley (05:51.66)
Yeah, okay, physical safety and numbers, you could make an argument. We're not gonna make it, because that's not really what we're saying. But even in the physical world, like, well, if you're thinking about survival of the species, okay, then again, in that scenario, someone's probably gonna die in the herd, but it's gonna be the weakest link. And I guess in the animal kingdom, that's okay. What you're talking about, I think, a lot is ideas.

Brian Boero (06:11.742)
Yes.

Brian Boero (06:20.287)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Oakley (06:20.366)
grouping in Hertz, and that is, it resonated to me then, it resonates again now when you say it, of this is getting to be a trickier time. know, 08 or 07 to 2012 was a tough period of time for new construction, mostly because we caused it with the mortgage companies and everyone, like we were a big factor of it, and in this case, it's starting to feel in some ways similar, but the,

Cause is not necessarily the builder, but the effects can still be the same. And so I am going back to some of those ideas now and saying, does this make sense? And a lot of them do like new product design is an imperative to stand out in today's world. New product design or existing product design at a new or differentiated price point is an imperative in today's world. And so if you think about

that analogy and then think about product pricing. You can't change place. You can't pick up the house and move it, but the rest of the mix, I mean, why pay attention to everything that's the same?

Brian Boero (07:28.125)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, it's all about creating difference now. Compelling differentiated value. And because I'm a marketing guy, I think everything's marketing. So sure, you need to build a differentiated product at a compelling price point, but then you also need to articulate it and position it in the marketplace of ideas and advertising and sales. Right. And that's where, you know, if you kind of squint and look at, you know, the, the marketing and advertising

landscape in residential real estate, it kind of all looks and sounds the same at the end of the day. Right? So if you have a differentiated product and you have differentiated value, but are not effectively manifesting and expressing that in the world, then you've invested a lot in creating difference, but failed on articulating it and therefore driving engagement, sales, et cetera.

Kevin Oakley (08:23.246)
Absolutely. I want to pivot. We're going to take a little bit of a journey down another path and we'll come back to your talk in Chicago at the end here. I did a panel with James Dwegans a couple weeks ago at the Builder 100 conference in California and that was incredibly insightful, I think, for the audience to just hear the impacts of the settlement, what people really should and shouldn't be doing. James is a great spokesman for all of that. But one of the key takeaways was if builders are

Brian Boero (08:48.873)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Oakley (08:52.866)
have historically just said, we'll pay you more money. And that's not the best practice or the best idea in today's world. One of the things that builders need to get better at is understanding the psyche of an agent or broker and how to be a better partner. So I just wanted to ask you, from your perspective, what's the average agent that's doing deals, that like actively.

Brian Boero (09:09.631)
Mm-mm.

Kevin Oakley (09:20.234)
involved thinking or feeling about today's market. Just like give give builders a little window of insight into what are they worried about right now? What are they?

Brian Boero (09:25.855)
Well, I think, look, this has been a war of attrition against the real estate practitioner over the last, you know, now we're on our fourth calendar year of this sluggish market. And, you know, it's been very, very tough during that period. So most agents that I know, and we know lots of agents,

are feeling tired, anxious, uncertain. And the only path to growth is to steal share. The pie declined by about 20 to 25 % starting in the summer of 2022. And it doesn't seem to be getting any bigger anytime soon. agents are tired, agents are anxious, agents are looking for new opportunities.

They're not naturally inclined, most agents, to look towards home builders. I think more of them probably should. And I think home builders probably need to think about reintroducing themselves to partnerships with real estate agents because I do think that the sort of psychic alignment is there because it's tough to be a real estate agent right now. We're looking at four million home sales again this year. That's down about a million and a half from the

historical average of used home sales over the last 35 years. I mean, it's not that many deals for way too many agents and agents are stressed and anxious.

Kevin Oakley (11:08.866)
Yeah, I think to use a charged word, but in a different context is, you as a builder, we're all discounting the fact that a relatively straightforward message that I think agents would pay attention to are, hey, we have 400 pocket listings for the next year. That's the word we're not supposed to use. But we, as a builder, I have 400 pocket listings and I would like to figure out how to work with you to make sure that buyers find and are aware of them.

Would you like to work together?

Brian Boero (11:39.295)
Right, yeah, right. Well, I think that, Kevin, is an interesting way to frame it. I think that's right. know, for those of your listeners who haven't been paying attention to our used home world, I mean, that's the current battle, and it's quite fierce around off-MLS listings.

Kevin Oakley (11:59.938)
That's the thing that's gonna make them pay attention, I think, is if you use one of those charged phrases, and you could even say, we don't make you come in and look at a printed book of them, but that's also a joke for those of you who aren't aware, Compass is asking people to come in and look at a printed book of exclusive listings.

Brian Boero (12:01.841)
it.

Brian Boero (12:07.933)
No. Yeah. Yeah.

Yes. Yes, but we do have all of these secret off MLS listings and they're sitting out on the edge of town built or in the process of being built and we would like you to help us sell them. Yes, these off MLS private listings.

Kevin Oakley (12:31.18)
Yes, and in particular, if those agents understood, and I know that there's potential conflicts here too, but making sure, I think the other thing that agents need to be aware of, not just the homes are available, but that the buy downs that we're offering, a lot of builders have done a lot of messaging around buy downs and interest rate incentives to consumers, but not as much about you can be a hero as an agent or a broker to your customer.

Brian Boero (12:48.989)
Yeah.

Kevin Oakley (12:58.264)
by making sure that they're aware that they could afford a home that's 120 grand more than what they think their budget is if they go new.

Brian Boero (13:06.835)
Yeah, no, I agree completely. You know, there is this historic, you know, I was like in the new home and used home industries. It's like, you know, they're cousins who, you know, they're family, but they only get together every other year for Christmas. And there's a familiarity there that probably, especially in these types of conditions, should be more, they should get together more often.

Kevin Oakley (13:35.468)
Yeah, exactly, exactly. right. Pivoting back to one of the strengths of you and your team is research and the amount of research that you do with consumers directly around all sorts of issues and then presenting that research finding to the folks that you work with and those in your own community. What's the name of that? If you want to join that one.

Brian Boero (13:59.967)
Basically, it's a thousand-mile membership. Go to our thousand-mile site and become a member of thousand-mile. We get tons of research on consumers and also real estate agents. And we do that on an ongoing basis. We've done it for four years now.

Kevin Oakley (14:16.056)
So give everyone just one quick sample of a piece of research or insight that you've gotten in the past year. In your general real estate world in particular that was like, this is not what people would have expected to see.

Brian Boero (14:33.342)
We fielded a couple months ago a nationwide study of Gen Z and millennial renters, people who had not yet bought, but at some point most of them will probably at least want to become future buyers. And we asked them, know, do you aspire to home ownership, these young people? 92 % said yes. I want this thing. It's, you you hear about the end of the American dream and

nation of renters, young people will be renters now. That's not true. And we've verified that several times over the last few years. It's extremely hard to get a toehold in the housing market right now to buy that house. But people still want it. The psychic and emotional draw of owning your own home is as powerful as ever. So that

I think was interesting. And then when we asked people, well, why do you desire this thing? It's interesting to unpack this. Really the number one factor wasn't financial. You know, I'm going to build wealth over time, but buying a house, it was about identity and self-determination. I want to own a home because I can paint the house the color I want.

I can mow the lawn or not mow the lawn. I can make noise without annoying the people downstairs. People associate home with autonomy and independence in a way that is very desirable to them. So that's not necessarily something you wouldn't expect, it really gets you thinking about how you market then to people, right? Young people who want a home. What is the language you use?

Kevin Oakley (16:25.89)
Yeah.

Brian Boero (16:30.559)
What is the strategy for your brand to approach these people? So we just lots of interesting stuff. And that's the whole purpose of this research, right? I you can't, it seems academic, but I find that too few companies in real estate truly methodically consistently endeavor to understand their customers.

and then have the feedback loop back to advertising and marketing and brands.

Kevin Oakley (16:59.448)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, just what you shared right now, I made and probably with the latest Gemini release of Veo, I'll be able to make it live by the end of the week, is a commercial that would show the life of that extra bedroom. Right, some flex space. And there's been a lot of, let's show the progression of the kids and families. And that's all true and highly emotively charged and makes a ton of sense from a narrative standpoint.

Brian Boero (17:09.567)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Boero (17:16.873)
Yeah.

Kevin Oakley (17:27.49)
but also the story of that extra space that when you're young is all of your knickknacks you're collecting and displaying and then transitions to a nursery area, then transitions to a craft zone with painting supplies, then transitions to like, it speaks to that research part that you just pulled out of. I can personalize this and also that idea of who doesn't want that one extra room to have the freedom to do something specific with.

Brian Boero (17:52.371)
Yeah. for sure. I mean, we did a whole series of ads for our members, mock-ups, concepts along this line, along these lines. And one of them, think, was, you know, the art was a photo of a young man standing in front of his house. the copy was something along the lines of the...

when you finally get to say, get off of my lawn. Yeah, right? And it's like, yeah, well, that's hooking into something, right? Like that's not about dollars and cents. It's not about pride. It's about like self and independence and empowerment.

Kevin Oakley (18:24.851)
Yeah, I remember that one.

Kevin Oakley (18:38.074)
And the creative genius to subvert the typical negative as a positive. As a kid, you hate hearing that, but now it's a privilege.

Brian Boero (18:44.733)
Yeah. Yeah, totally. Right. So like

Brian Boero (18:52.347)
You know, mean, creative and advertising and brand building and all that woo woo stuff. Like. It's it's actually science because you have to go out, you gain feedback, you gain insights, you use those to formulate hypotheses about what's going to connect with your customer, having understood them. And then you test right. you it's creative and brand building. All that stuff is not, you know.

just creative, you know, woo-woo. It's actually a process.

Kevin Oakley (19:29.1)
Yeah, and you have to be able to observe and identify the pattern in order to interrupt that pattern. If you don't put in the work to do the research to your point. So, when you come to Chicago, rumor has it that you may be bringing some new research insights. And in particular, I agree as a member as well that you all do fantastic job with research, but it is this,

Brian Boero (19:37.247)
Totally. Yes, exactly.

Kevin Oakley (19:59.072)
unique blend of not just data points and percentages and statistics, but the FaceTime, the actual recorded panels that you do at times with potential buyers or agents to actually kind of talk through this stuff out. Because again, we all need that story and narrative to hook the data onto or else it just kind of doesn't seem to hit the same.

Brian Boero (20:07.103)
Mm.

Brian Boero (20:21.911)
Totally and that's what we try to do right? mean you can you can do the research but you know many I'm sure many of your clients and listeners to the same way Kevin it's like okay Well, I can read research but then I need help moving the ball forward into formulating a strategy or a campaign So that's what we try to do and you know, that's one of the things that I hope to sort of give folks a sense for in Chicago in October is

to share some of what we have learned with home buyers and I think for your audience specifically a little insight in terms of new home buyers and what are the unique insights that separate the new home buyer from the used home buyer and what is the same and my hope is to share some of that from the stage with your group.

Kevin Oakley (21:33.966)
That's me. Completely agree. And if I could see it a little bit of insight, there's this generally recognized pattern of most people don't begin their search for a new place to live considering new construction. They do over the course of their journey often take a peek and then either develop a preference or not. But there's so much to be learned from the people who look and decide to continue to go down the used home route.

As much as there is to talk to people who have purchased new construction, and like there's insight to be gained in every direction that those folks take. And the considered new construction but ended up buying a resale home is one that frankly, when I talk to most builders about how much research or follow up they've done with people who have made a different purchasing decision, generally I kind of get the.

but they didn't pick us, like they don't love us, why would we wanna talk to them in even more depth? And why would they wanna talk to us in even more depth? I'm like, because there's no risk for you, they already bought something else, like they can tell you the full reality. Yeah.

Brian Boero (22:35.486)
Yeah.

Brian Boero (22:39.134)
Yeah.

Right. I'll tell you the truth. Yeah. It's interesting you mentioned that about, you know, most home new home buyers don't start out on the path. There's a notion in brand strategy and marketing called the surprising truth. Did you know that you could have your whites be 20 % whiter by using OxyClean, right? I mean, that type of stuff, right? But it's actually a very powerful notion.

Kevin Oakley (22:58.242)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Boero (23:12.191)
in branding and advertising and marketing. And it strikes me that the new home industry has a couple of really strong, surprising truths for home buyers out there right now. Did you know that because we offer this financing package or this buy-down, effectively rates are not really 7.2 % for you right now here, if you want to buy a home here with us.

Kevin Oakley (23:24.962)
Yes. Yes.

Brian Boero (23:41.937)
I mean, it's pretty powerful stuff. And I think sometimes that that's articulated simply in terms of dollars and cents, but that's a really...

Kevin Oakley (23:51.022)
Oh, it's all over the place. I still remember Brian, it was 2020, late 2022 or 2023. I was at a basketball game with three very, very successful entrepreneurs. And someone mentioned that they were looking for a home. Of course, my ears perked up and I say, hey, have you considered new construction? And they said, oh, no, builders don't have any inventory. I said, what are you talking about? And I just pulled up like three builders websites and I said, here are homes that are available. And one of them was a financial advisor who had several clients who were looking for homes.

Brian Boero (23:56.436)
Yeah.

Brian Boero (24:02.451)
Yeah.

Kevin Oakley (24:21.046)
and we're lamenting to him that they just couldn't find anything. And he's like, can you send me the links to these? Like I got to tell people and I'm just thinking like it's it's sometimes even sadly just that the new homes are there.

Brian Boero (24:33.577)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's super interesting.

Kevin Oakley (24:38.552)
Well, we are more than excited to have you join us in Chicago and to hear some more about the general research that you've done as well as specific research and insights. Again, you and your team, links in the show notes, everyone check those out if you're not familiar with them, but they are the premier branding, storytelling, positioning folks in residential real estate. Customers as large as Zillow and Tomo and...

and others and as small as you name it, right?

Brian Boero (25:12.903)
gosh, you know, the small local builder, the small local real estate brokerage, right? I mean, it's everything in between, but we love housing.

Kevin Oakley (25:20.738)
and everything in between.

Kevin Oakley (25:25.078)
All right, we'll see you in Chicago.

Brian Boero (25:27.187)
Right on, I'm looking forward to it,