Kevin Oakley (00:01.262) Well, welcome to episode 391. I'm Kevin Oakley and with me today is Jackie Lipinski and Beth Russell. Jackie Lipinski (00:08.075) Hello. Beth Russell (00:09.568) Hello. Kevin Oakley (00:10.274) And this will be a little bit different because we've got either two episodes this week or one episode put together. So we've got my interview with the folks from homes.com and their new construction offering that's coming out imminently. And then we've got this episode because we just can't keep ourselves away. Jackie Lipinski (00:31.531) knowledge. Beth Russell (00:31.626) So you're telling me that I can't yap for too long. Kevin Oakley (00:34.828) I'm telling you, story time might just be all we do today. We'll see how long everybody goes. So let's get started and Jackie, take it away. Jackie Lipinski (00:45.345) Yeah, I just actually got off a call with a builder and I think it goes in with what you're gonna talk about too, Beth, but they were just saying, man, I really feel like a firefighter lately. And I was like, oh, I haven't heard that in a while. Oh no. I was like, tell me more. And they're like, I just feel like, you know, there's inventory is the flames. And I was like, well, also don't forget the kindling is coming of your under construction home. So we can't forget about just. He just was like, everything feels like it's a little on fire right now. So was one of those moments where we step back, kind of prioritize what's going on and realize that when you're feeling like a firefighter, that's not a good feeling. That's not a good place to be. And so we have to kind of come back to reality and understand what we could, should be doing, but just also, and then prioritizing what we really need to be focusing on. So just some tidbits. I would say for marketers listening in, one of the things we're seeing is from other marketers and proactive people is also understanding, yes, these are the things that are worrying us today, but we can't forget about the things in 90 days, 180 days that are also going to be coming. If you have under construction homes that might sell by the end of this year, we should be also talking about those and promoting those as well. So we can't forget to just look at the things right in front of us when there are things behind it that will cause more stress in the future too. Kevin Oakley (02:08.44) Yeah, I think that's good because also consumers are looking at your offering with all different kinds of needs and timelines and everything else. so that's one of the things that always becomes a challenge is everyone wants to make sure like putting five signs in front of the community that no one misses this. We got to tell everyone about it. And if we just told enough people about it, it would sell. But also not if everyone that is looking is thinking about moving. Jackie Lipinski (02:13.643) Thank Kevin Oakley (02:37.749) at the end of the year, as example. Jackie Lipinski (02:37.995) Yeah. Well, and I've heard, too, someone's like, it's vacation season. I'm like, OK, well, yeah, the focus might need to be in two months then. Like, let's talk about things that we could be doing and prioritizing differently. It's one the things that that is where you think your audience is. So just meeting your audience where they are, I think, and also not making assumptions is helpful. It's like, well, everyone just wants inventory homes. It's like, not everyone. So we have to make sure there's messaging and content around each and everything we're providing. Beth Russell (03:08.81) Yeah, we see that a lot with incentives too. like, they just assume that everyone wants, we have to offer the same incentive. We have to offer this low rate. We have to try to keep up with what the nationals are doing. But in reality, when the options are provided to customers, a lot of times door number one has a lower rate, but door number two has a lower rate and something else, but it's higher than door number one. Like the rate is higher than door number one and they choose door number two because Jackie Lipinski (03:11.157) Yeah. Beth Russell (03:37.462) For them, it makes more sense. And so if you're not catering to where, like you're saying, Jackie, where the customers are in their journey and where they're seeking the value and where they're assuming that value, then it's not going to move the needle in any way. Kevin Oakley (03:50.572) Yeah, and that's not why people move. It's not for an incentive or a promotion. It's because there's a product that meets their needs or makes their lives better. That has to come first, Jackie Lipinski (03:54.976) What? Beth Russell (04:01.27) Who'da thunk it? Jackie Lipinski (04:02.337) I feel like there's a couple sales team throwing like tomatoes at the screen right now. Kevin Oakley (04:06.774) Yeah, I know I said we're gonna go fast. So I'll just transition to Beth here by saying that I often will show a picture of firefighters when I do talks talking about the role of marketing. And that can be a way to develop street credibility is to solve an impending challenge. So it's okay to don the fire suit now and then. But if people believe that your job is simply to only put out fires, then you're in a bad place. Jackie Lipinski (04:16.993) Mm-hmm. you Jackie Lipinski (04:33.856) Mm-hmm. Kevin Oakley (04:38.766) All right, Beth, what do you got? Beth Russell (04:40.886) So connected to all of that when you feel like the firefighter. This past Friday, we had our monthly marketing leadership collective meeting. Kevin graciously joined us for the call. And while he had his topic for the back half and the front half, I had this thought that was kind of pondering in my head growing, stewing. And I couldn't really figure out the words or how to explain what it is that I was observing a lot of my marketers were going through right now. And especially when it pertained to the marketers who are carrying a lot of the stress and the weight of the market currently. And everyone like eyes in a room are just staring at you. Like they're on a stage with a spotlight and everyone's looking at them for the answers. And I did some research and was like, it actually has a definition or a term that people refer to it as that kind of takes all of these symptoms that people are experiencing. under like, it's an amalgamation of all of these symptoms and it's called leadership fatigue. And everyone in the room, like with their Zoom box, were like, okay. And then a few other leaders who watched the recording after were like, my gosh, like that's exactly what I'm going through. It's not just that I'm overwhelmed or I'm tired. or that like I have brain fog. It's all of these things that are occurring right now. The decision fatigue, having to always make decisions. That's exhausting. Parents experience that day in and day out because we're making decisions all day at work. And then at home, what do we need to do? Make more decisions. Like what are we going to eat for dinner? And that's when we just go to Chick-fil-A. But. Jackie Lipinski (06:08.673) Mm-hmm. Beth Russell (06:20.702) You know, what are the other things that are happening? You're having to keep everyone else motivated. If you have a team, you have to come up with creative ideas. You have to come up with creative incentives. You have to put out the fires and then also think about the fires that are six months down the road and know how to solve them now. And you have leadership that are above you looking at you for the silver bullet. And then you have everyone on LinkedIn selling you a new solution and a new AI tool and all of these things that are just like, what about this? What about that? And it's overwhelming. So we just talked about it, and I encourage everyone listening to this who may be feeling the same, is find a way to release that valve. Learn how to say no if you need to say no. Learn how to set boundaries and work on your processes. Learn how to approach things from a different point of view. And if you need to take a half a day off, take a half day off, or whatever it is that you need to do to just release that valve for a little bit. Jackie Lipinski (07:20.703) One of the things I'll also say is sometimes when things get a little tricky, the first thing I like to ask on Builder Calls is like, what are you proud of? What are you proud of this month? What are you proud of that you were able to accomplish? And the echo that I would say most people are proud of themselves in that role is being able to trust in their team and to give more responsibility down. No one has been like, yeah, I feel better when I'm just getting more. It's being able to trust in your team, kind of take, you know, take the training wheels off the bike and make sure that you can delegate appropriately because it's going to having that accountability and multiple assets is going to give you, know, you're going to become a better leader. You're going to have more time to yourself and you're going to help focus. And also you're going to help train up those people. Ideally, if you have a team under you. Kevin Oakley (08:00.269) you Jackie Lipinski (08:12.541) or find a solution, if you're a team of one, to help take away the decision-making drags. Kevin Oakley (08:21.282) I just think Megan on our team was working on a blog post and asked our marketing group in Slack a question of like, where would you start in creating standard operating procedures in a department? And to me, it's pretty much done. It'll come out soon. You guys will love it as a concept. But standard operating procedures work for a team of one, two. Jackie Lipinski (08:49.889) Hmm. Kevin Oakley (08:50.164) even if it's just for yourself. When you talked about decision fatigue, I immediately wrote down a note to talk about that's why Jackie's map tool or any inventory, like having a standard operating procedure that says when a house gets to this stage, we take pictures of it. When a house gets to this stage, we make an ad, removes a whole lot of decisions that an individual doesn't have to say, I don't know, should we make an ad for this one or not? Like if you're going. to listen to the data and the CRM or the salesperson or the sales manager to decide on every individual inventory home, whether it's worth getting an ad for that home or not, you have too many decisions to make. You still need to create standard operating procedures, even if you are a team of one. Because then when someone challenges the assumption, you can then, it doesn't have to be personal. You're now going back to the standard operating procedure and saying, okay, if we need to adjust this, and this is what I'm using to do my job. But I think that, Beth Russell (09:32.694) Mm-hmm. Kevin Oakley (09:46.978) That's one thought that I had, is standard operating procedures and the map tool as an example, marking action plan tool for your homes. Don't make a whole lot of things a standard operating procedure and have defaults. And then manage exceptions, not everything. Good managers manage by exception, not by managing every single detail. And the other thing when you said take a half a day off, my initial reaction, probably because I'm old, was. Jackie Lipinski (09:50.677) Yeah. Beth Russell (10:09.067) Mm-hmm. Kevin Oakley (10:15.34) Take a half a day off from your day-to-day job. Don't take a half a day off from your job. Because if you think, this is someone who's middle-aged telling you this from experience, if you think that simply removing yourself from the environment and then coming back to it after a period of time will fix everything, it will fix nothing. If you're taking that time away or taking half a day, Beth Russell (10:18.422) Mm. Beth Russell (10:36.875) Yeah. Kevin Oakley (10:41.922) to create a standard operating procedure on two different processes that have been driving you insane, and then coming up with a plan of how to roll that out throughout the rest of the company and have everyone understand how they work and what they do, that's a half a day that you should give yourself permission to take off time from the day-to-day kind of craziness to work essentially on your marketing business, not in your marketing department. Beth Russell (10:46.966) Mm-hmm. Beth Russell (10:52.928) Mm-hmm. Beth Russell (11:06.526) Yeah, I remember when I was still in the seat and you told me to lock myself in a coffee shop where no one could come bother me and do whatever. Cause I think I was designing a new, the new website then. And so I had to like have no disruption. I had it. I had to look through our current site, find the opportunity and come up with a framework for our new site. And I remember that was like one of my favorite days of the year because it just reduced the noise and the friction I could. fully go into tunnel vision and focus on something that I needed to get done that I just kept putting off, kept putting off, kept putting off. And that's exactly what people need, whether it's a half a day where you do need to like thoroughly disconnect both from an environment and thought process, because we all struggle with that, or if it's the half a day of just getting outside of the box that you've put yourself in on like a cog in the wheel within the day where you can shift your mind into something else that you've been putting off, it's incredibly... incredibly healthy to do that. Jackie Lipinski (12:08.075) I think Lin-Manuel thought of Hamilton like when he was doing a float down a river. sometimes the best, like I think I remember watching a drunk history episode where he talked about that. All I'm saying is like, you're right. Location matters. Like your brain has to get out of the expectations of, even when you do do time blocks, you have to shift your energy and focus because surprising things sometimes need to happen by. Kevin Oakley (12:28.814) Mm-hmm. Jackie Lipinski (12:37.547) by changing that. You need to take away the expectations of your brain of like, okay, well this happens on purpose. You're taking away stress. Beth Russell (12:39.37) Mm-hmm. Kevin Oakley (12:44.206) taking away stress like you were blocking out stress and saying this stuff's not allowed today or for this half a day. I don't have to answer the phone. I don't like this is why I used to articulate this in a really weird way. I'd be like, I found so much peace in doctor's office and going to the dentist. Neither one of those are places where people would find like peace and serenity. But for me, it was like. There yeah, airplanes the same way. It's like I can't be reached. Jackie Lipinski (12:51.132) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. Jackie Lipinski (13:08.179) It's on the airplane for me. Yeah. Beth Russell (13:11.338) Kevin's like, I love the DMV. Kevin Oakley (13:13.43) I can't respond to you. No human is going to be thinking to themselves, that's ridiculous that he's not calling me from his appointment with the doctor. That's not happening. So I've like flipped through magazines and I'm just like, don't read magazines ever. What do I do? What am I doing here? But I just had the space to do it. Jackie Lipinski (13:22.721) Mm-hmm. Beth Russell (13:24.79) Mm-hmm. Jackie Lipinski (13:26.452) Maybe. Jackie Lipinski (13:35.647) Yeah, yeah, I think that's what it is, giving yourself space to relax and calm down and think differently. And even I would say a challenge that if you're like, well, guys, I don't have that time. used to do this one person I thought was very inspiring. They would turn off the music on their drive home and they would just sit with their thoughts. that was their commute was their thinking time. And so sometimes it's just you have to find that time for you. Beth Russell (14:05.174) Cool, but that would be scary. I'm just kidding. Jackie Lipinski (14:07.264) Yeah. Kevin Oakley (14:10.604) My story time is gonna be quick. There was a gentleman who was, went to the Market Proof Marketing Academy and I had a follow-up conversation with him and he was talking about really wanting to dive into and looking at creating a marketing efficiency report because he was trying to help everyone else in the company understand that just because this other tactic creates, in air quotes, leads, if those leads aren't going to appointment or becoming revenue, Jackie Lipinski (14:19.329) Hmm. Kevin Oakley (14:39.874) but in particular aren't going to an appointment or being responsive, then we have to heavily discount. And so on the one hand, his report was showing that when he did things, I'll just say the right way, that his cost per lead was 50 to $100 more than doing everything the same but using only landing pages. However, when you look at the cost per appointment, the right way was clearly better. And... Jackie Lipinski (15:03.425) Okay. Kevin Oakley (15:07.158) the speed of customers going through the entire process from becoming a lead to purchasing was also faster. And so just a shout out to say that's the right way to think about it. He's newer to our industry. It's not surprising to me that he picked up on that because he hadn't been indoctrinated with lead solve everything yet by the typical stuff that's in the air. I encourage everyone that you need to be thinking about it that way. And again, The podcast episode with Steve Shoemaker just came out and one of the things that it reminded me of is when digital first came about, no one was actively trying to lie to us all because they didn't realize they could or the power that it would have. And we talked about the analogy of in newspapers, it was pass along readership. When deliveries of newspapers started to decline, they were like, well, yeah, our deliveries are down by 2 million people, but... Jackie Lipinski (15:59.243) Thank Kevin Oakley (16:04.053) when you count the pass along readers, you the people who just walk into someone else's home and pick up the paper and glance at it, or in a doctor's office or whatever, like, this is all the, and I'm like, that was a made up lie that they realized they needed to tell. And now we have to combat that the tools that we're using are actively trying to manipulate our understanding of what we're getting for their benefit. Like we're far enough in the life cycle of digital that the platforms are realizing, ooh. we can maybe even extend our profits by just, you know, telling little white lies. Like how could we know if your lead is good or not? We just gave it to you, you told us to get you one, we got it. Kevin Oakley (16:47.948) All right, first up from searchengineline.com, Google promoted pins come to maps for demand gen campaigns. This is something that I think is going to excite a lot of people. Because it seems like something that you can use to steal from your competitors, which builders always love as much as anything else. So pins now show up in maps where users browse areas, search for directions, or check out specific places. And the move aims to increase visibility in these browse-worthy moments, helping to convert digital interest into physical visits. What do you all think? Jackie Lipinski (17:28.169) I thought it was interesting. sort of see it. Sometimes I'll look at a map and I'm like, well, I'm really feeling tacos. And then I'll, and then it's like, well, here's a burger place. I'm like, again, I'm not looking for, I'm looking for food. You understand I'm looking for food, but that is not what I'm looking for. But was I made aware that that burger, that other place existed? Yeah, sure. And so I think there is a positive and negative to it of understanding where. Kevin Oakley (17:54.252) And that example you just shared is how it would function if you turned on performance max campaigns, by the way. If you hook this as just another way for a PMAX campaign to work, like calories, this person's calories, let's show them every ad related to calories and hope we get a conversion. Whereas now that there's a little bit more granular control, having the right keywords and following the right intent will make them function a little bit better. Beth Russell (18:04.117) Mm-hmm. Jackie Lipinski (18:19.969) Mm-hmm. Beth Russell (18:27.862) That silence went way too long. Kevin Oakley (18:27.97) Anything else? Jackie Lipinski (18:29.473) Dead air. Beth Russell (18:32.255) Dead Air. Kevin Oakley (18:32.814) All right, moving on. This one, Jackie, is one that you shared, so I swapped it out, because I think it's a better use of a quick conversation. From the Wall Street Journal, so this is a paid link, it won't work for everybody. Meta aims to fully automate ad creation using AI. AI-powered advertising is part of CEO Mark Zuckerberg's vision for the company's future. He's been on lots of podcasts talking about this over the last three weeks. When I saw the article, I was like, yep. Jackie Lipinski (18:43.179) Mm. Kevin Oakley (19:02.136) That's definitely what he's saying he believes in. And they're talking about, know, using the ad tools metas developing a brand could present an image of the product it wants to promote alongside with a goal. AI could create the entire ad. So for example, if someone lives in a snowy environment and they see an ad for a car, would show the car driving up a snowy mountain. And I think, well, I'll share what I think here in a second, Jackie. You're the one who shared this. What are you thinking about? Beth Russell (19:21.366) you Jackie Lipinski (19:29.729) I think it's just that it's the same thing where you see the articles and then you're like, well, okay, they're trying to solve the problem specifically for me, but really who are you trying to solve the problem for? I think it's just one of these things that everyone's like, yeah, we're doing it first so we can always claim that we're doing it first, but still day in and day out, we really see the, overly manual ad creation, but just the handling of ads. is the better use of time. Like we know what's more important. This might appeal to certain markets. I think a lot of people are like, it's a car and now it's in snow, but the car didn't change. Right? And so that's still what we're selling at the end of the day. So it's just an interesting way for them to go about, but I feel like it's also a worry of the industry of just everyone's trying to the easy button. But we keep seeing time and time again, these companies that go too far into AI kind of flop. because they need to pull back and have that human element back to it. So I almost feel like that's gonna be a secret sauce to not feeling fake is as that feel handmade. Kevin Oakley (20:35.148) Yeah. I think you hit it right on the head with your first part of like, who is this for? Meta is used by every brand, but it's primarily used in terms of the total amount of ad spend by all of the small and medium businesses who don't understand what business manager is, couldn't articulate what a carousel or collection ad is to save their life. And so I think what they're... trying to do here is just reduce all the friction possible for small and medium sized companies who aren't partnered with a group like us who can help them get it done. So just say, all you have to do again is give us access to your website, all right, we'll scrape it, we'll create something. And essentially again, it's removing friction just to start getting more of those companies' And then when you connect it with the thing we talked about just a couple minutes ago of. reporting back data, like this is how many contacts you got. Their goal is just try to make it as easy as possible and then to make it as sticky as possible for those size organizations. That's the first thought I had. The second thought I had is the amount of AI imagery used in stuff that's shared on social networks in particular, like LinkedIn. Yes. it's gotten way better. It can start putting real words and there's, some, people only have six fingers instead of eight. It's getting way better, but also as soon as you see it, this is amazing how fast our brains are at this. It's like immediately you're like, that's not real. And even then your second intuition for me is that's not real. And that person didn't care very much to make something real. Beth Russell (22:26.998) Mm-hmm. Kevin Oakley (22:27.426) they did the shortcut and therefore there's just a different value that I put on it. I'm not saying that those images don't help convey any of it, but the interrupt pattern very quickly is like show me a real picture and my brain is like, something real versus the typical AI imagery. So I think even if this does work and start to go in that direction, the biggest winners will go the opposite way and continue to. like find this balance of using technology but still, like the pattern interrupt part of AI, AI imagery, AI imagery, that's real, I think is gonna be compelling or at least more structured. At least for the near term, I would say until AI gets way better. Yeah, that's what I'm saying, pattern interrupt, it'll just stand out. Beth Russell (23:12.17) Well, it'll also stand out too, right? think of, yeah. Like you're on LinkedIn right now and you're scrolling through and you see someone post yet another post with like two lines and then a bunch of emoji bullets and then two lines with a question. It's like, okay, I've seen, yeah. And it's repetitive and exhausting. And I think more so than in any other industry, it's important that Jackie Lipinski (23:30.497) What did I learn of this situation? Yeah. Yeah, it's exhausting. Beth Russell (23:41.534) We maintain that aspect of realness because life is real and people are spending their lives in our homes and we give them a depiction of something that feels tangible. And we tested it all the time of like, does a rendering work better than a real image and time and time again, it's a real image. But even more on that, like with the power that we give to Meta now and the power that Meta has now with some of their AI integrations with like adding different color and text and words and music. We turn it all off. It is. It's like a drunk toddler. Kevin Oakley (24:11.042) Yeah, it's mostly drunk. Kevin Oakley (24:15.97) We think you would like this mariachi music over top of your home's photo. What? Jackie Lipinski (24:18.805) Yeah. I would also like to say, I remember we did that experiment where we also were taking like the 11 out of 10 most beautiful photo and then we took the eight out of 10 photo and the one that was a little more real, not to say like great photos don't have great, like there's a place and a time for them, but it was almost when things felt more real, people were like, oh, that's more achievable. Obviously you go in a model home and you want it to be decorated and clean like you want. Beth Russell (24:32.936) Mm-hmm. Jackie Lipinski (24:49.525) But I think when the photos feel unachievable, then they're less likely to interact with it because it just does. then you can't. And then also if it almost looks too, too nice and you're like, is it fake now? We're trying to do that processes. And one thing I'll also say. Beth Russell (25:02.934) It's like when you're analyzing someone's marriage, like it looks too perfect. It's social media. Jackie Lipinski (25:06.677) Yeah Kevin Oakley (25:10.402) Yeah, I think the Steel Man it the opposite side is if you sell t-shirts, if you sell soap, if you sell gum, this is like anything that is true e-commerce. I think this is a gold mine for and you you could make the argument that someone like Hi-Arc who would plug in the ability for Meta to have access to all of how that platform works in terms of home design and rendering and display, et cetera. There could be some interesting things that come from that. Jackie Lipinski (25:15.958) Yeah. Jackie Lipinski (25:39.009) Mm-hmm. Kevin Oakley (25:40.206) Especially from a remark. I mean, it's really remarketing more than marketing That where that would become super powerful but yeah, I mean to be able now with Google's AI announcement of like take a couple pictures of yourself and you know for advertisers who go through the work of turning it on you can show you you in that shirt and kind of know more what it looks like and then to make ads based on like I Think there is something if if you if you're selling a Beth Russell (25:44.086) that'd be cool. Kevin Oakley (26:08.768) a commodity product that is something you're gonna buy on Amazon or similar with less than 10 minutes of real discernment, it could be great. Jackie Lipinski (26:18.689) Oh, gosh, I just thought of a really great idea. I'm to have to write it down, but come back. So last podcast, I know we're trying to make it short. Last podcast, you guys talked about what is a brand of a house, individual houses. But part of me is like a strategy around like you are the brand. then if it was like photo, like we'll put you in the photo. But I think there could be, there's fun opportunities with it, but you can't lead with that AI. Kevin Oakley (26:22.349) haha Kevin Oakley (26:29.453) Uh-huh. Kevin Oakley (26:41.888) Yeah. I mean, I, my friend, Jeff Turner, I talked about this maybe eight, nine years ago now of the ability to connect your social account with a rendering or an image on a home builders website and have all of your family photos go on the walls or in picture frames or to say, you have a dog and now automatically like there is, there are some cool opportunities to make things feel. Jackie Lipinski (27:10.987) Yeah, but if I haven't filled out the information and all of a sudden the AI grabs a picture of my dog and puts it, no, I'm just saying like, it's like, we created this image of a home and we captured a picture of your dog and here's what it looks like. That's when it would be like, that's creepy, but we're not there yet. Yeah. Kevin Oakley (27:11.15) more personal. Kevin Oakley (27:16.332) No, no, you have to give it permission, right? You have to volunteer. Beth Russell (27:16.406) Well. Beth Russell (27:27.006) Yeah, the hard line in the end. Kevin Oakley (27:29.826) Yeah. Yep. Beth Russell (27:31.84) It sounds like it'd be cool for like middle bottom of the funnel, not top of the funnel. Jackie Lipinski (27:35.563) Mm-hmm. Kevin Oakley (27:37.944) I agree. All right, that'll do it for this week. We'll see you next time, everyone. Jackie Lipinski (27:42.667) Thank you. Beth Russell (27:43.946) Bye bye.