You're listening to the Loving BDSM podcast. Kayla
Lords here with the one, the only, the,
You haven't been as grumpy as you could
be. No. And I'm kind of appreciative of
that. John Brownstone.
Yeah.
A little a little mellow.
Yeah. Less gruff.
Mhmm. I'm here for it. Okay. Okay. That's
not what we're talking about. Yeah. No. This
week, we're answering a question from a submissive
who has renegotiated their power exchange to exclude
punishment,
but they aren't sure how their dominant will
correct
welcome to the Loving BDSM podcast. If you're
new here, we help kinksters like you have
happy, healthy power exchange relationships. And the podcast
is your favorite podcast app so you never
miss an episode. And if you'd like us
to answer a question that you have in
a future one of these, you can use
our contact page. It's literally labeled ask your
questions. It's available on our website at lovingBDSM.net.
That's lovingBDSM.net
or in the show notes.
Okay. Here we go. My Dom and I
have decided to start our dynamic again from
scratch. We have renegotiated
our power exchange and our limits and boundaries,
but have decided not to include punishments. I
have anxiety where I fear being in trouble
often, so this seemed to be counterproductive as
I would be actually in trouble and would
heighten these feelings.
However, now we have reached a place where
my dom does not feel he can correct
behavior he does not wish to see as
there is no deterrent.
Is punishment a necessary part of power exchange?
And how do you remain dominant and in
control when your submissive is allowed to break
rules with no consequences?
So, Dom, who doles out punishments,
what say you? Well,
got a couple of things. Okay. K.
One,
why is sub breaking all those rules?
Right. Like, why why is either the supposition
that they're going to break rules, or why
are they breaking rules? Yeah. Right. Right. I
mean, you know,
aside from the fact that, you know, they
could be a brat and they're just having
fun with it and that's how they're getting
attention, you know, that that's one thing. But
if they're not and they're breaking rules,
then you'd kind of find out what there's
maybe something
behind that. Mhmm.
Okay.
The other thing
is, we've talked about this in past episodes
before,
punishment is not the end all be all.
Mm-mm. It's not the best way for everybody.
No.
This one here, punishment is only in dire
extreme
badness. Like, I have completely been taken over
by aliens, and I'm not even speaking like
myself anymore. So far out of character behavior.
She's totally lost her shit. Right.
That is, accurate.
Okay. But,
learned early on with her
that,
best way to to get her to cooperate
and and moving in that
direction
is is,
rewards. Mhmm. Positive reinforcement. Positive reinforcement. She, you
know, she does love her rewards.
Promise her a Diet Coke and she'll almost
do anything. Almost. I mean, I'll do some
sketchy shit for you guys. I mean, I
don't, you know, it used to be the,
you know, I'd do anything for York, but
no, it's
I do she'd do anything for a Diet
Coke. So, you know. Alright. So, you know,
that and and some coffees and, you know,
whatever else. There there is a whole lot
to go on
to, say, you know, okay. You you you
get this done.
And this is gonna be waiting for you
at the end of the, at the end
of the race. Right. Yep. So
Yeah. I agree completely.
What was I going to say? I lost
my train of thought.
I'm glad I'm not the only one. No.
You're not the only one. No. No. No.
No. No. Happens to to all of us,
quite frankly.
I agree with you completely. I don't have
much to add specifically to that. The thing
that my mind came to, exactly like you
said, is what is happening to cause all
of these punishments if they're happening at all?
If they are happening,
the next thing I want or for if
it's if rules are being broken and that's
what's happening, right,
you have to talk about the rules in
place. Are they the wrong rules? Are they
not feasible for the submissive involved?
Or
is or
is learning a new habit and the stumbling
that can often
occur with that as you literally retrain your
brain and your body to do something different
than you've ever done before
for somebody else,
is it actually just the stops and starts
and mistakes that happen in that? So then
is it actually
bad behavior? Like, how are we
defining bad behavior?
And then
what
are the methods in place to
help a submissive learn how to not do
those things. If we're talking about,
you know,
you used to to do this, you used
to have this habit, I'm gonna pick a
random one biting your nails, you used to
bite your nails, and
now I don't want you to do that.
If what you expect is to set the
rule, you did it, now don't do it,
they're not likely purposely breaking a rule by
forgetting themselves. They are unlearning an ingrained habit,
and they are trying to learn what you
want them to do. And there may be
tools out there that help.
Now that I'm on the stop biting your
nails thing, there's lots of things that you
can do to deter somebody from biting their
nails,
these days anyway.
But
that's the question I have. Is it that
they're purposely breaking a rule? Because that's a
different conversation than
I'm trying to learn a new habit and
I'm struggling with the change or I'm just
making the same mistakes anybody would make. So
that's the other thing is realizing what kind
of behavior you're gonna define as air quote
bad
and and what is just
human nature and and it's a part of
the process of training and relearning and doing
different things
in your power exchange for your dominant.
We do have
a plug here.
We do have a workbook on our Etsy
shop. It's about punishment and
rewards. It's a workbook that talks about both
sides of it with worksheets to help you
kind of figure out
specifics of what kind of punishments if you
decide to do that, what kind of rewards
if you decide to do that. Positive reinforcement
works for a lot of people. As you
mentioned, we have talked about these things before.
I'm gonna link in the places to where
we've talked about these things so people can
do a deeper dive.
The other thing that came to mind, I
totally respect the fact that having anxiety
about being in trouble is then heightened when
you're actually in trouble. And that's, like, one
of many reasons why punishment is not good
for everybody.
The other thing I would say, though, is
it's also about trust.
Mhmm. I am terrified to be air quote
in trouble with somebody that I don't trust
what their reaction's gonna be, which is why
I'm just anxious all the time.
The thing I've learned over all the years
with JB, though, is I know what to
do to keep myself out of trouble for
two things. One, the punishment is something
that for
two
things. One, the punishment is something that is
a deterrent. I don't want it to happen,
so I'm not going to do the thing
that could cause it to happen. But two,
I have learned
where that line is.
So I'm not saying you need
I don't mean to tow the line and,
oh, almost get in trouble. That's not what
I mean. I mean, there are times a
thought will come into my head that I
could say,
I have free will and all, but I
know what kind of reaction I'm going to
get for it. And so then I just
refrain. I'm like, nope. Not worth it.
But also, I'm because I know that. I
know what, in general,
will set us off down that path. Gotcha.
It's the trust I have that it's not
gonna creep up in any other part
of, you know, discussion or even a mild
disagreement
is comes from trust. It comes from how
you have behaved consistently all this time, and
it comes from my,
ability to finally learn how to trust that
deeply so you're my safe person.
So if you're a person who naturally has
just some anxiety over being in trouble,
that may never go away. That's that's
possible. But it's also possible that you haven't
had enough time in a power exchange to
fully trust your partner on how they're gonna
react in different situations, and then it's incumbent
on the dominant partner
to react calmly.
You know,
with a bit of reserve in the, you
know, not
not in a uncaring way, but that dispassionate,
like, that thing happened.
Here's what we do about it. Not the
big blow up or the guilt or the
shame or the recriminations
that
often many of us anxious people who are
terrified of being in trouble are waiting for.
Right?
That doesn't mean that you'll change around one
day and wanna do punishments,
but I I think it's worth an exploration
and an understanding that sometimes that just comes
from not enough time and not enough trust
in the power exchange.
But also I just keep going back to
what kind of rules are being set where
they're just it's either assumed they're gonna be
broken or they are being broken. Mhmm. Because
unless it's a brat kind of thing where
the fun is in the push and pull
Right. Which doesn't sound like this person would
might be gone with, at least not not
currently in their current state,
then then then the question is, is this
even the right rule? If you cannot maintain
it,
is it too much too soon? Is it
just not right for you? Is it a
rule that you set together because you think
that's what's supposed to happen in power exchange?
There is no that's what's supposed to happen
in power exchange other than communication and consent
and some,
let's use the words in the definition, some
level of exchange of power. Right? But beyond
that, there's no standard rules, there's no standard
behavior, none of that.
So
if what we're worried about is a thing
that hasn't happened yet, then everybody take a
breath, go through the rules you have, determine
which ones are habit changes and which ones
are it needs it needs to a switch
to flip. Right?
But if we're talking about
something that hasn't happened yet and you're worried
about it, right,
or we're talking like, there's I've lost my
whole train of thought. I'm so sorry, y'all.
There is the
if it's happening right now, you have to
take a step back and look at why
it's happening. Right? Wrong rules,
not enough time to change, not enough understanding
of,
habit changing, too big of a rule, maybe
you need to back it up to baby
steps.
If it's not happening yet and you assume
it's going to,
then I have questions for you. Why do
you assume it's going to? Like, is there
past behavior within your relationship that makes that
a possibility?
Is it just a fear that one or
both of you have that's got no basis
in truth? If there is a basis in
truth, that's another conversation that has to happen.
Right? And that and what I would say
then
is if we're dealing with fears of something
that could happen but has not happened yet,
then everything needs to back up a little
bit and you need to go a little
bit slower with these rules.
Because one or both of you does not
have a comfort level
with
the making of and following of rules and
then believing that they will be followed. Whatever
that's about, that's a conversation.
And the easiest way to, like, work on
it without overwhelming everybody is to take whatever
the the big rule is and step it
back a little bit and make it a
smaller rule and do one rule at a
time until that habit is ingrained in both
of you, till you know how you're gonna
behave with each other, you know, until you
build up that kind of trust. Like, you
can trust each other enough to do a
power exchange or to do something, you know,
new and different in your relationship and not
yet have the comfort level of, oh, well,
they're gonna do everything they said they were
gonna do. Dom Warsaw. Right? Because you don't
necessarily know that until you've seen that in
action.
Right? So that's really the thing I would
say is where is this fear of the
rules just aren't gonna be broken, or the
rules just are gonna be broken and the
Dom won't be able to to deter them.
Yeah. That that's its own conversation.
But, yeah, with positive reinforcement,
instead of deterring the behavior you don't wanna
see, you reward the behavior you do want
to see. Right.
And for many people that works a whole
hell of a lot better Than punishment. Than
punishment.
If every time
I you wanted to correct my behavior, it
was always punishment,
that would never have that would never work
long term. You you just shut down. Yeah.
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'd have been like,
I don't even wanna do this anymore because
I think I would be similar to this
person. I'd be on edge of this. Everything
going to get me in trouble is is
a little slip up, is a mistake. Or
they would start become ineffective after a while.
Right? Because
I'd be so used to it. It's like,
whatever.
Punishment for me is, like, so too and
far between. There comes a point. A purpose.
And and I think with your your little
bit of background, you probably can understand it.
If if somebody is is
punished for being bad, not doing something right,
there there comes a point where they're like,
okay, I'm being punished for this. I may
as well be this. Right. Or or they
internalize I am bad. Yeah. And no. Right.
So the other thing I would suggest for
both of you is to learn we've done
a a little bit of content about this,
but I know it's out there in other
places, is to learn more about submissive training.
Mhmm. Because that's where this comes from. In
order for there to be punishment that is
not punishment,
effectively what you're trying to do is change
behaviors, change habits, change what change ways of
thinking, have a submissive do a thing that
the or not do a thing the dominant
wants them to do. That is training. You
are training your submissive to do or not
do something. And there are
submissive to do or not do something. And
there are different tools in the arsenal for
how you get that done. Punishment is only
one of them. It is not a standard
thing in all power exchange. There is no
standard thing. There's
no everybody does that, everybody should do that,
this is how we get none of none
of that.
So no punishment is not necessary,
and yes, you can find your own way
without it, or you can even modify it
so that there might be things that you
as a submissive are comfortable having
happen if you slip up that are not
punishment, air quote that word, in whatever way
you're envisioning it now.
So that would be the thing that I
would say. Like I said before, links in
the places, where we've talked about punishment and
rewards, positive reinforcement, stuff like that in the
past, and I'll link to our workbook for
anybody who,
is interested in that. It's a way to
help you
organize what you are gonna do, what you're
not gonna do, what behaviors you're trying to
change, what things you want to have happen
in this part of your power exchange for
anybody who might find that valuable.
But yeah. So one thing I'd like to
throw in there real quick Okay. In all
this,
this is not a punishment,
but it is also something that should be
used judiciously.
You should not just use it randomly.
You know, it should be used only in
the most dire
of circumstances.
Three words.
Oh, I know what's coming.
You disappointed me. I hate it. Do you
know those words? That's why I'm glad you
say you have to use those judiciously.
Those words
are, by some mental health professionals,
are considered so damaging to a child when
a parent does it that they're like, please
don't do that. Like, that will stick with
that child. Alright. Wow. So and I didn't
know that either. I mean, as somebody who
grew up hearing it from time to time.
So yes,
judiciously.
As hopefully two functioning adults who are mentally
well and healthy enough to understand it differently
than a child will, Right? Who's still developing
and these are formative years and that connection
parent to child is different than, you know,
dom to sub. You I think you can
get away with using it, but you have
to you gotta be careful. That's a powerful
It is. It is. Powerful weapon. It is.
And now I'm trying to think of alternatives.
I think it's still I I think it's
effective
when so what parents tend to do is
they say,
I'm not angry. I'm just disappointed. Right? Or,
some version of that. Right. And depending on
the nature of the relationship between parent and
child, that can be devastating.
I think
a big diff a big problem though is
there's never any discussion or context given for
a child. All they hear is that they
are a disappointment. And again, not all children,
not all parents, not every time, but enough.
Right? In an adult
negotiated relationship where communication needs to be at
the forefront
Mhmm.
If a dom says that and they know
it has an impact on their submissive,
one, that needs to be acknowledged. Two, that's
a responsibility the dom needs to carry with
them that this is a powerful tool, and
you need to be careful with it. But
three,
there needs to be a conversation
between the two of you after
things settle and and you can both be
calm so that Adam can explain what they
mean, can give context to the submissive, can
say how they felt, you can work through
it, and you may find
that that is not an effective statement for
you because it might bring up some other
stuff. JB can say it to me and
he can even just threaten to say it
to me and I'm like, well, I will
straighten up right now.
But I have
enough context. And I and I think I
can count on my fingers
the number of times I've used that
over the course of our entire relationship Right.
To this point. One, because I'm trying not
to, you know, disappoint you. And two, you
don't just throw that out there. You're not
trying to guilt me. You're not trying to
shame me into anything.
So, yes, I think that can be effective
for some people.
I think if you hear those words or
hear this discussion and have this immediate nope
kind of feeling, then you know yourself well
enough that That's right. That's not that's not
one that will work on you.
But that is also the difference. But, you
know,
what should happen between,
you know, parent child is that might get
said, but then there's a conversation.
Right. And that very rarely happens. Whereas with
you or two grown ass adults in a
negotiated
power exchange, if you could talk about getting
freaky in the sheets, you should be able
to talk about
what disappointment means and what that those feelings
brought up in both of you. Okay? Absolutely.
So I think I
I, you know, I add that just as
a caveat because, like, everything, not everything will
work for everybody and there are reasons for
that. Right?
But yes, you don't I mean, truly, you
don't have to, like,
have a,
a submissive
lose a privilege,
stand in the corner, do something abhorrent as
punishment
if if it is effective enough to them
to know that you are unhappy with them.
Like that'll stop me in my tracks every
time. The only time you being unhappy with
me doesn't make me, like, rethink my whole
life is if I righteously think I am
correct and we are in a a disagreement.
But if I if I know that I
could have done better, there was there was
some I'm in the wrong here.
Yeah. No. Those are very effective words and
no punishment needed.
So, yeah, there's so many ways so many
ways to navigate this. Yes.
Anytime
you're tempted to go, is this required in
power exchange? Almost always the answer is no.
Yeah. The only two requirements are consent and
communication, effective communication.
After that, it's whatever you make of it.
Yeah. Mhmm.
So I think that is that. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Thanks for listening to this week's q and
a episode. If you want us to answer
one of your questions, just use the contact
page on our website at lovingBDSM.net,
or you can find the link in the
show notes. Big thanks as always to our
kinky community over on Patreon. We're able to
do this podcast and keep it going and
help kinksters due to your support. If you'd
like to be part of our community and
get access to extra content and a Discord
server with a group of super cool, super
nice kinksters, you can do that. Just join
us at patreon.com/kaylalords.
That's patreon.com/kaylalords,
or use the link in the show notes.