- You are listening to the Loving BDSM podcast,
episode a 3 86.
Kayla the Lord's here with the one, the only, the,
I think thought you were about
to sneeze, but caught yourself.
John Brownstone. Yeah. .
There was that quick intake of breath. Yep.
And then we're recording. And your eyes got water
- .
I was like, is it coming? I was
like, I'm not gonna let this out.
I'm not gonna let this out. I'm not gonna let it out.
- Which just means it'll come out at the
weirdest fucking Spotify.
- Right? This, - This is what's gonna happen. Mm-Hmm.
. That's not at all what we're talking
about this week though.
, we're gonna talk about submission and pleasure.
It's not meant to be a thing
that continues on from last week's episode.
We actually thought about this topic at the same time,
but separate from talking about pleasure doms or whatever.
But it does, it does feel like it. It fits.
I even have ranted in my head a couple times thinking
about some stuff.
I think we're gonna say what? Here we go.
The vast majority of folks already know.
But it's like, no, but let's give it
its own fucking episode.
That, that's what we're gonna do. We're gonna, yeah.
Mission and pleasure. Yes. Yes. Let's talk about it.
Welcome to the Loving BDSM podcast.
If this is your first time listening, glad to have you.
You're back for another week. Welcome back.
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So at Loving DS one,
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where you can watch us live stream the
podcast every Wednesday.
All links are in the show notes. Okay, let me double check.
I don't think I have any like announcement announcements.
No, no. We're just gonna jump straight into it.
So this week's topic is about being submissive
and a submissive pleasure.
Whatever that will mean. Um, I really think
that the main point of this could be a five minute podcast,
, but, you know, I'm sure,
I'm sure we've got some things to say.
Um, and this is something we have said in many, many, many,
many, many, many, many, many episodes.
Mm-Hmm. . Um, the, probably the episode
that's most related to this topic is episode 180 4, uh,
about getting your needs met in a DS relationship.
And of course, one of those needs
for submissives is pleasure.
And for the person who's gonna go,
why are we just talking about submissives pleasure?
What a dom's pleasure.
The reason we're talking about this is
because of the consistent stereotype.
And, and I consider it a stereotype that the only pleasure
that matters is the Dom's pleasure.
Doms, take what they want. Doms get what they want.
Submissives give their doms what the doms want it.
You know, my pleasure is,
your pleasure is very common in a lot of, uh, kinky fiction,
which, and can be exciting , you know, when
that's the mutual desire.
But like, yes.
And also no .
I mean, to the extent that there had to be a term
pleasure dom, which does mostly focus on sexual pleasure.
Like as if it is some revelation
that the submissive is getting pleasure.
Like, I'm not, uh,
don't get me started on last week's topic again, I,
when I say don't get me, I mean me, don't get me started.
Um, so it's like, let, let's just,
let's just talk about this now.
I've been doing a lot of reading. It's escapism.
I, I need to go into a fictional world.
'cause the real world is just a little much .
Um, in the current series, I'm, I'm basically binging.
Um, can you binge read?
Is that, I don't know, but I feel like I am.
I came across a line that I went, Ooh,
this is a thing I'm trying to express.
And this author said it way better than I did. No.
And I, lemme just put the disclaimer on
that you should not use kinky fiction
as a fucking guidebook.
But, you know, every once in a while you find a gem.
Writers are like, they're, they professionally put words
and thoughts together in ways that are supposed
to resonate in this one did.
Um, and the quote from, from the book,
the series is The Beyond Series by Kit.
Is it Rocha Rocha?
I don't know how they say their last name.
It's actually a writing duo. Mm-Hmm. .
And that's the pseudonym. Either book is From Beyond
Solitude, which is a good book.
It says, granting him power,
trusting in the implicit promise
that he'd give her something in return.
Mm-Hmm. . And that is the fucking point
that I'm constantly trying to make.
That when the sub hands over control
to their dom in whatever way that means
sexually, you know?
Mm-Hmm. , uh, over your daily life,
over the scene, whatever, whatever
that you're handing over control.
So the dom is gonna get what they want out of this.
And the implicit, and quite frankly, needs to be
explicit promise is you
as the submissive partner are getting something back.
You're getting something in return.
You're getting your needs fulfilled.
Like we've talked about way back in episode 180 4,
for the record, anybody doing math
that was over 200 episodes ago, , .
Um, but all one of those needs is pleasure.
Now, how that pleasure gets defined is gonna be unique
to each of us.
Right. What causes pleasure is going to be unique to us.
The type of pleasure is quite frankly,
possibly gonna be unique to the situation.
'cause I, as a submissive experience,
pleasure in multiple ways
that are not just one type of pleasure.
Mm-Hmm. . But let us just have it on the record
and have one whole fucking episode where we say,
in no uncertain fucking terms,
submissives should be experiencing pleasure.
Two, based on how they're defining pleasure based on
what they want to experience.
Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I mean, done episode's done.
I said the thing. There we go.
- , let's
- Talk about it.
It, um, so
before I get into, I, I tried to be like organized
and, you know, there was a time in my life I was the
most organized human being.
I knew that that time has passed. ,
- No comment. I don't know who
- That girl is.
, just in general about the concept.
Like what are your thoughts other than Yes, you're right.
I, we already know. I know you agree with me. Yeah.
That's a given. Um,
- One of the things that that came
to mind while you were talking
- Ranting, - Talking ,
um, is the fact that I think that is kind of where, uh,
empathy as a dominant is important.
Mm-Hmm. . Because I think you need to have
that empathy to understand,
to be able to give back. Right.
- To understand that, unless now I do think submissives need
to get better at being very explicit about the
pleasure they're trying to experience.
Mm-Hmm. . But that even if it is not explicitly
explained to Adam Dom, the dom understands that, okay,
I'm doing the thing I wanna do,
but at some point in this, there needs to be some form
of pleasure for my partner.
I mean, there are times you are going at it
like in an impact scene.
It's all sting, it's all burn, it's all the sensations.
I don't like the pleasure I'm experiencing in
that moment has nothing to do with the sensations.
the sensations are entirely not pleasurable. Mm-Hmm.
the pleasure. Sometimes I'm not
consciously aware of the pleasure.
'cause I'm mostly focusing on how I don't like
that sensation .
But the pleasure comes from the submission.
The pleasure comes from your pleasure.
And it's valid for a submissive to say, my pleasure
is my dom's pleasure.
My thing is I refuse. I refuse.
Somebody's gonna argue with me. I don't care.
I refuse to believe that always all the time
for the rest of your life as a submissive.
That that should be the only pleasure you receive.
I think it could be a, a good portion of it. Sure. Mm-Hmm.
I'm happy with my domic happy. There are a lot
of things you're doing to me that I consent to
that are not my favorite Mm-Hmm.
And I allow it because you like it
and you getting to do
what you want does bring me a form of pleasure.
It makes me happy. Mm-Hmm.
happiness is, is a form
of pleasure for anybody who was confused.
But that doesn't mean that if
that was all I ever experienced was sensation
that I don't love, but I tolerate for the sake
of the person who does love it.
Eventually what I would be experiencing is not pleasure.
It'd be resentment. Because it'd be like, I don't, I don't,
this is, I, I want more than this.
I contain multitudes. Mm-Hmm.
as do all submissives .
You contain multitudes.
Um, but yeah, I mean, the fact, you know that,
so you don't take advantage of that.
So like, this scene might be all stinging pain. Mm-Hmm.
, the next scene will be something else.
Or the spanking might be stinging pain,
but then what you do to genitals,
nipples my hair, whatever is a sensation I like.
Because you got what you wanted.
So you then make sure you get what you want. Yeah. Right.
And that, how does he know what I want?
Well, that's the communication part.
I've told him, , um, I react, I do my best to react.
I'm not always reactive.
Like when it's like wild
and crazy, then I, I'm loud as fuck.
And I've had to train myself not to be,
but sometimes I kind of get lost in the moment.
And I have to make sure at some point that I'm expressing
to jb I liked that.
And it's oftentimes after, oh, I liked that.
He was like, yeah, you got quiet there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
'cause I was just, I was just in and out. I was listen out.
Great. You were in the zone. Um, so yeah.
I mean, it's another form of communication. Mm-Hmm.
to have to tell your partner, your dom
what feels good, what you like.
Yeah. I remember early days to kind of get me used
to having that conversation.
'cause like all other communication
and as a skill you have to learn.
You have to practice. You would ask me point blank,
what did you like about that?
Yeah. What did you enjoy? Mm-Hmm. .
Um, and I think, you know, I,
I couldn't appreciate it at the time,
but I, I can now looking back, you never assumed that
because my body reacted a way that I must have enjoyed it.
You still checked in, we still Mm-Hmm.
did kind of a debrief. Yeah.
Early days for us.
After anything we did, there would come a point
or, you know, once we were both like
fully in our bodies
and caught our breath, get hold of conversation.
We were gonna talk about the thing we did. Yeah.
Sexually or just kink. It didn't matter.
Um, and so I was sort of forced to learn how to go.
Oh, that, that thing you did with your tongue. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, I was I screaming like I had been possessed.
I just let you know when I scream like that,
that means good things, you know?
But you, you checked in to double check to assess Yeah.
If what you read in me was correct. Yeah. Correct.
Um, you gave me the opportunity to go and,
and it was a strange feeling the first few times
to go, okay, I really like this.
But you know, that one thing that you did right there,
I mean it was fine, but it wasn't my favorite.
But this thing you did over here.
Oh, I, I really liked that. That was great.
That's how we could get to a point where he knows what toys
I'm not gonna love, but I will accept.
And so then you can gauge, okay, what do I do
after she Yeah.
She submitted to a sensation she does not like,
what do I give her later?
I dunno. I don't know how you think about it.
Is it to make up for it or is it just in addition to,
'cause you're like, okay, I got what I want now.
It's her turn. Balance the scales. Yeah.
Are you consciously aware of that when you're
- I try, I try to be. Yes.
- Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. .
It also means that if something
that once did give me pleasure is not giving me pleasure,
I also have to speak up.
Because especially long term, we've been together forever.
He's not forever, but you know, feels that way.
Right. Okay. I was gonna let you say it.
figured i'd, I'd be the bitch if
I said it, but it's fine.
You say it. You know, he has developed techniques in how
to touch me, to arouse me sexually.
Right. To, um, give me a certain type of pain
or sensation that I usually respond to if I stop responding
to it the same way that I usually do, it's,
it no longer feels maybe as good as it once did.
Mm-Hmm. it is my responsibility to speak up.
Now if I can tolerate it while we're in scene,
I won't say anything
because for me,
some I do derive pleasure simply from submitting,
simply from taking what happens as long
as it's within my bounds, my boundaries.
Um, but later I'm gonna have to go, okay.
Uh, you know, that moment where you touched me there
and you did that thing with that one finger
and it was like that.
That's not feeling the same way it used to. Right? ?
I have to say that
because I have to own my own pleasure
and express what does
or does not cause pleasure in order for JB to,
um, provide pleasure that I want.
Because I don't just get my pleasure from submission.
I do get a lot of it. I feel
and pleasure can mean a lot of things.
Happiness, satisfaction, sexual arousal.
Sometimes, sometimes I just, I feel special.
I feel like your special girl,
which is why I get cranky when something happens.
And for a minute I don't feel like you're special girl
, huh?
Because I am a validation seeker from, from,
uh, way fucking back.
Um, so it is
impossible to talk about every single way
a submissive can derive pleasure one Mm-Hmm.
, because we're not all alike. Two,
because it is the, the spectrum of human experience, right?
Sure. Like one person's pleasure is another person's ick.
Right? That's the whole thing about kinks and fetishes.
Anyway. Something someone,
some activity is gonna make you real happy
and I'm gonna go get the fuck away from me.
And so it's entirely impossible to talk about them all
or to even categorize all the things under one umbrella.
But I did try
- for - The sake
- Of this
. I'm glad I,
- If I had a professor student fantasy, I'd be like, oh,
am I, am I boring you, Mr.
Brownstone? . I don't have that fantasy
- .
And you suck at role play. So I did suck at role play.
Oh, I can't do it. I can't do it.
- One day I would like to explore why
that is so hard for me.
Mm-Hmm. . But I don't fucking have time.
Anyway. So I tried to break up some of these
and the common things I could think of.
And as always, it's inherently personal
because it's things I understand that bring me pleasure.
The point of this is one, to remind folks
that there's different forms of pleasure.
I think some people get very caught up in the
sexual pleasure.
Mm-Hmm. forgetting one of two things.
One, that's not the only type of pleasure.
And two, that not everybody is,
this is not a sexual thing for everybody.
Sometimes it can be platonic, it can be whatever,
and just not be sexual.
Which is why I continued
to get annoyed at the pleasure dom thing.
Because anyway, ,
We did that whole episode.
Yeah. I've already screamed into the microphone about that.
So I've broken it down the way I could think
of it into four categories.
But please, please, please. JB darling deer. Okay.
If you think I've missed something, let's talk about it.
I know the live chat will tell me if I've missed something.
So the first one, serving,
now serving can mean a lot of things.
Um, I'm thinking of this from a service
submissive perspective point.
I am a service sub.
Um, I had like a wild thought the other day
thinking about service submission.
And I was like, wait, we talk about service tops.
But I was like, wait, is there a service dom?
Is that what pleasure dom really is? It is a service dom.
I don't know. Hmm. I don't know.
I ha I was having wild thoughts in the middle of the night.
. So serving looks like a lot of different things.
Um, sometimes people default,
especially in hetero appearing power exchange, um,
where the, uh, female is the it's female sub
that serving is domestic.
It's all the domestic activities. Yeah.
But serving is doing something for
or on behalf of your partner that they want you
to do for them.
Right. There's all kinds of service.
I, um, there's, and I don't know the details of these
'cause they're not my kinks and I don't have practice them.
There's cigar service. Mm-Hmm. .
There's boot blacking. Yep.
There is, uh, this hits multiple ones.
But human furniture, that's a service.
Somebody's literally using your body to prop their feet up
to sit on, to hold a tray.
Like whatever. That's true.
Um, that can be, that's, that's many things
that falls under different categories.
Right. But that is service for me.
The way I think of service is taking care of you
and being of service.
That there is a lot of domestic labor in that, um, for us,
but not completely
because we share a lot of the domestic tasks.
Correct. You know, we share cooking,
we share washing dishes, we share laundry,
we share grocery shopping.
We share, the only part
of grocery shopping we don't share is I make the
list .
But , we even got to the point
because I just could not, um,
take on one more sort of mental load thing
that now I don't do all the meal planning by myself.
We share that as well.
So when I say I'm serving, I'm taking care of,
I'm doing for jb.
And there are times that the first way I would describe
that is not pleasurable .
It is, um, in a not at all negative way.
It's a duty, it's a responsibility.
It's a sense of obligation in a way
that I don't want anybody to take negatively.
I agreed to do this thing. It is not a hard limit.
It is not physically taxing or impossible to do.
So therefore I'm going to do it.
But I get a huge sense of satisfaction of,
and sometimes I get genuine happy, pleasure from it.
Like, look at me. I did the thing. It helps. Mm-Hmm.
that he says thank you. He says, good girl.
I have absolutely roasted him when I'm like
aware that the dog has gotten more good girls than the
oops I have.
And if you don't think I don't bring that up.
You haven't been here long enough. .
Do I do it in a sassy, fun, playful way? Yeah. I do.
It, it, I can, we can joke about it. Right?
Like, if it was like a serious problem
and I was feeling really resentful
and like I was, he wasn't showing gratitude at all.
It would be a, we need to talk kind of thing.
But it's, it's usually one of those that sort
of human experience of you get used to how somebody behaves
with you and is with you.
And it's not that you don't appreciate them
or you've fully taken them for granted.
Like you just don't even know they exist.
Instead, it just becomes part of the norm.
And so then you forget, you know, to say thank you. Mm-Hmm.
or to acknowledge every
so often if he said thank you every
after every fucking thing I do
around here, it would lose its meaning.
It would lose its meaning. And I would be like, I love you
so much, but shut the fuck up.
I can't. I can't.
If you did good girl after every fucking
thing, it would lose its meaning.
But what I have found is I don't notice it
as much when it's a semi-regular thing,
but I notice the lack.
Oh, yeah. Right. Okay.
And a, a calm,
and we've talked about this under I think the service
sub, uh, episode.
And we've talked about it and, you know,
advocating for your needs and burnout.
We've talked about it in a lot of places. Yeah.
But if I ha if I go too long without acknowledgement
of the things I do, that's when resentment builds.
And then I'm not feeling pleasure from it anymore. Mm-Hmm.
right now I'm feeling obligation in the
negative sense in the, this is drudgery
and I just have to fucking do it.
And actually I don't. It's a choice. Right?
I mean, there was a time I did most of the domestic tasks
around here, and then that didn't work for life.
And we renegotiated Mm-Hmm. .
And now it's a, it's a much more even split
in certain areas.
But the pleasure, the pleasure is not
just in the acknowledgement.
I can already hear cranky people who are like, well,
why shouldn't we thank you for
a thing that you said you would do?
Oh, fuck you. I hate that shit.
That's why we have a whole episode on gratitude.
. But my initial pleasure
is in the doing the thing.
Right. I feel I just feel really fucking good
that I did the thing.
Look, I take a lot of self pride in myself.
I get satisfaction from knowing I did a good damn job.
I know I make his coffee better than he does.
He didn't have to tell me that.
But it was appreciated when he did, uh, sort of verified
what I was like, oh, I'm pretty sure I'm making this better.
'cause I just know I have the, I've got it down.
Um, so I get pleasure from that.
I get pleasure from knowing I've done the thing.
Then I get pleasure from the
semi-regular in whatever way it comes.
Gratitude and acknowledgement. That's mm-Hmm.
There's pleasure in those things.
Sometimes an act
of service is a thing I didn't really wanna do.
It's sort of like stinging pain.
I don't really want stinging pain, but I can tolerate.
I don't really want to, um,
help you with your foot care.
Right. , like, that's not my favorite thing
to help him take care of his feet.
I got a a foot thing. I'm like, it's not a fetish.
It's the whatever the opposite of a fetish is, that's me.
But I love him and I'm gonna do it. And it's service. Right?
Like, it's, I want to help him. I want to take care of him.
I want to do the things for him.
So there are times when it's like, uh,
the pleasure I feel is not in being nose
to toenail with you.
It's not, it's really not .
It's in the knowing that I could do it for you. Okay.
It's in how you are when you know I'm doing a thing I would
never offer to do on my own .
That you are the only human being alive who can ask for this
and get the help for it.
Mm-Hmm. . Um, you acknowledge it
and show gratitude in more overt obvious ways.
You know, I did it because you asked, right? Mm-Hmm.
. And so, no, I'm, I'm not gonna,
I'm not gonna volunteer it.
Y'all. He's got to ask me if he wants it,
but I'll do it every fucking time.
You know? Yeah. I I, for me, outside of power exchange,
if he asked for a thing I just did not want to do,
I would find a way maybe to help him get it done.
As long as I didn't have to do it
as his submissive though, as a service.
Submissive, I'm gonna go Yep. Yep. I'll, I will do that.
I'll do it. Let's, let's go. We'll do the thing. Right.
That, you know, when I think of service there, for me,
it's all kinds of forms of pleasure.
And I think most people think when they think pleasure,
they think screaming orgasms.
Yes. We'll get to that. Okay. .
Um, they think arousal,
they think erotic pleasure.
And that is a huge part of kink and pleasure to gather.
Mm-Hmm. . Like, there's, but there's
so much more to it, and it's so much more nuanced.
And that's the thing I, that I think gets forgotten when
we're talking about submissives getting
what they need from something, you know?
True. True. I could not have, as a, a babysit, submissive
explained the pleasure.
I couldn't have like, broken it down and gone.
I'd have just been like, I just feel so good.
This just makes me happy.
And quite frankly, if that's all the only thing you can ever
express, that's fine.
You, not everybody has to live in their head.
The way I live in my head, ,
I am not sure I recommend it.
Um, it's a scary place up there.
Um, but it's, it's all this time later
that I can go, okay, let's pick this apart.
I'm getting, the pleasure I get is deep satisfaction.
It's, you know, service. Yeah.
It's having my own internal scratch itched.
You know, I want to be the one who takes care of you.
I get really pissy when you either try to do it yourself
or somebody else tries to do it.
That's not your fucking job. That's my job. She,
- She, she has this huff
and a sigh that
is unbelievable.
And yeah, it, it comes out, uh,
when she sees me doing something, I should have asked help
with . Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm.
- . Mm-Hmm. . Okay. So,
- Okay.
- I'm, for me, this one is, is murky
because service is so tied up in my submission.
Mm-Hmm. . But I do wanna like,
break out just submission as a concept as pleasure.
Right. Okay. And this submission is the umbrella.
So it could be serving, it could be the next
things we're talking about sex.
It could be sensations, it could be whatever.
But to me, submission is you tell me
to do a thing or you ask me.
Mm-Hmm. . And I do it.
And it's not always service. It's not always sexual.
Um, or it can be submitting to Sens when we get to it.
Sensations that I don't love, I'm submitting to your will.
Mm-Hmm. . And I think that for newer subs
who maybe those newer subs who haven't parsed out, you know,
in detail what they want, they just want to submit.
I, I think this is like the, the gateway,
kink pleasure for a lot of newers.
Not all, you know, some will have a, a better way
of ex expressing it and, and understanding,
and maybe they got more education about kink.
Mm-Hmm. . But the, you know, my first
realization that Oh shit,
I'm submissive came from either watching stuff
or reading other people's experiences, fictional
or not, of just giving up the control.
Right? Mm-Hmm. The not having to decide
the no thoughts, just vibes.
The I want what you want type of thing.
And that pleasure can be all the forms of pleasure, right?
Mm-Hmm. there is the sexual
and the arousal and the erotic.
There's just the happiness, you know?
Um, afterwards when I submit to, to what you want,
even if it's something I never
would've chosen for myself, Mm-Hmm.
, I absolutely do get a sense of satisfaction.
I can be very proud of myself for taking
or doing, especially since, in my case,
we know I got a mouth on me
and we know I usually have a million questions, .
And so my, on a good day,
my pleasure in the sense the pride
and sense of satisfaction is, Ooh, look, I did not ask
all the questions that came to mind.
, . I just, I just did the thing.
And there's, there's submission in scene, right? Mm-Hmm.
, when you're like, get on your
knees, crawl to me, right?
Um, bend over,
or, oh God, when you get into, we'll get to it
with sensations, but you start pinching nipples
and all I wanna do is run the fuck away.
And you're like, don't move.
And I just don't move, like, . That is .
You doing okay? Aren't there? Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
, you're doing great. I might be in
for a very good evening, is
what I'm gathering from your expression
or reaction, one never knows.
Just have to wait and see.
Um, the place I think people get tripped up in
pleasure from pure submission is when
I think it's perfectly fine for a submissive at any level,
at, at any point with any partner they trust.
Mm-Hmm. to say in
general or from time to time.
I want what you want. Okay? Mm-Hmm. .
However, okay.
My criticism of that might critique, my warning
to my fellow submissive is
at some point out of scene,
when you're not like all up in your head
with all the kry going on, right.
And all the fuckery, you have
to think more in depth about what you mean by that.
Because
and you have to make sure that you have clearly
expressed boundaries and limits.
Because I can say to you, I,
I want whatever you want, do what you want.
I have absolutely gone do what you want. Right? Yeah.
But it's with the knowledge
and the trust that, you know what my limits are true.
I know from an experience, you're gonna stay within those,
the, like, the fence line.
Mm-Hmm. of whatever I've said is acceptable.
Right? And the thing I don't control is
what order, the exact type.
Because especially
after this amount of time we're playing together, you know,
what I tolerate versus what I genuinely adore.
True. And so when I say, do what you want, that means,
I'm saying, sure.
This whole scene is just stuff I tolerate
because the pleasure I'm getting is, is in that he, he got
what he wanted, whatever that was.
And I could take it,
I could handle it, I endured it.
Like I, I think some people get like,
really in their feelings when you say
that sometimes I'm just trying to endure this moment,
, I am enduring it as an act of submission.
And it is the submitting that makes me happy.
That makes me feel satisfied.
That gives me a sense of accomplishment and pride. Mm-Hmm.
- . So now I'm, I'm curious, uh, between the,
and this question covers both if not all.
Mm. Um, you know, the serving as a pleasure, submission,
submission, sex sensations as a pleasure.
Um, is that enough in
and of itself can be to, to satisfy and give you
- Pleasure?
It can be. I think that's gonna be, all
of this is unique to the individual.
It can be the, um, for me it's about,
I don't, I don't wanna say quantity,
but it's sort of the, if all I ever did was endure
- Mm-Hmm.
- Of, it's sort of like if all I ever did was do things
that I tolerate like that I tolerate, right?
Yeah. If that's all we ever did, I think for me,
and I think for most people, eventually you hit a point
where you're like, but there's this thing I really crave
and I really want, and this thing is either
I'm still tolerating it, maybe I'm tolerating it better,
but there's never been the,
I really enjoy this kind of factor.
Mm-Hmm. or there's the,
but there's all these other ways of playing
and we're not exploring them
or these, there's all these other ways of doing things
and we're not exploring them.
Not exploring Mm-Hmm. , which is the danger
of not expressing yourself to your partner
fellows at missives about
what you like and what you don't like.
And I don't, yeah. You know,
the only time you're gonna hear me speak up in scene
or in the moment, , is if
it's like the bad kind of pain, right?
That I'm like, oh shit, that's like injury level
pain. I don't want that
- Pain.
Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Or
- Out of, out of the boundaries pain, right?
Mm-Hmm. , we've crossed,
we've crossed the fence line.
No, no. Or if it's a thing that's happening
that I could see causing a problem, like Mm-Hmm.
In bondage, if you've tied me in a way,
and now something's gone to, like, we can't, he could not,
at this point, until I get all my neck and arms
and stuff checked out, he could not tie up my arms .
- No. - At all.
It, I would immediately feel a distressing kind of pain.
But it's my job to speak up in that moment.
But when we're talking about the, I've,
I've tolerated a sensation
because I know it makes you happy.
I've endured a thing that I don't love for the sense
of satisfaction of having endured it, my job outside
of the scene, outside of the like hot
and heavy power exchange moment when we're like just
chilling in our day and our, and like just Mm-Hmm.
even keeled levelheaded is to say,
Hey, let's talk about this.
Here are some things I want you to know.
I am very, and I don't think I'm alone in this.
I'm very cognizant
and very insecure about expressing my needs
and tho them not coming across as a criticism,
that's something for me and a therapist in the future.
Um, but also 'cause I'm a raging people pleaser,
but also I'm a sub to a dom who I don't ever want
to be telling him what he should do,
but also I have an obligation to myself
and to him to tell him what I like and don't like.
Right. Right. The thing is,
is I don't tell him what he should do.
I give him the information. Right.
So that we update the menu options. Mm-Hmm.
of what you can do to Kayla
and that she will either tolerate and endure for you,
or that she will love the fucking hell out of Mm-Hmm.
. And that's my job
to give him that information.
And then because he is the person he is,
and we've developed the trust that we have,
and he's already proven this to me, I know he will take
that information in Right.
And adjust for me. Mm-Hmm. .
And so for anybody who wants to be a keyboard warrior,
and tell me about how that's topping from the bottom.
Fuck you. 'cause it ain't
- .
Right? I, and, and we talked about this between you
and I I think last week.
Um, you know, telling me what you like Mm-Hmm.
and what you don't like. Mm-Hmm.
. I do not see as topping from the bottom.
- No. It's, it's not - And it Right.
- It's not a, you don't to see, it's just not. Yeah.
- It, it's not. But you know, the, the point I'm trying
to make is, you know, and,
and the way we, we talked about it
because I was like, all right, you know, if, if you told me
you wanted a spanking, okay, you want a spanking,
it's up to me to create how the spanking is done and when
- It - Occurs and, and when it occurs.
Mm-Hmm. , you're not telling me at this time
of day I want to be over your knee.
I wanna be hit with this implement. You know, that is
- The funny thing is, is I can say that to you,
but I can also say that to you knowing that one, I,
whatever I've just dictated with all those details.
Not getting it, not getting
it not getting it that way.
But I am free to do that.
And it is still taken in as information to store
and use later when you've decided.
And there's, right. So that's the thing.
Submission as pleasure.
And again, like you said, it comes under all
of the other parts I've got serving sex and sensations.
Mm-Hmm. , lots of s words here. .
Um, I'm reminded of the fact that I had a lisp as a child
and I wonder if I still do.
Anyway, , Um, the,
the thing about that is that's
where I can derive the pleasure.
Mm-Hmm. . Because of the trust.
Because you take it seriously.
I tell you what I'm looking for or what I no longer like,
or what I wish I would, you know, we could experience,
we did that a few weeks ago when we were like,
this is the kind of scene, this is the vibe I'd like,
this is the thing I'd like to experience.
And I was not able to articulate like real detailed stuff.
I'm, that goes back to the, my, my mind goes blank.
I can't initiate ,
but I could describe what I would like
to try to experience and yes.
Give examples of how I think that might work.
The submission comes from I give him that information
and then when he is ready to pull it out
and do something with it, it's a, it's sometimes,
and I'm gonna say this, and I don't mean
this in a negative way.
I hope some somebody else out there can relate.
We will do something kinky, sexy, whatever.
And it, and he will have decided. Right?
And it, he always makes sure it's good for me in some way.
Either I'm, I'm happy and satisfied that I endured,
or hey, I got an orgasm that I like,
or I felt a sensation I really like,
like whatever it is at the end,
there's always something about it that I'm like, yes.
That I derive pleasure from that.
At the same time, there are times
that I'm all up in my little head, especially
after I've been reading all these fucking books about
exactly what I'd like to experience.
And so I'm gonna use this word,
and I don't mean it as strongly as you would interpret,
there is a mild, mild level of disappointment.
Not in a way that I'm dissatisfied.
I'm not unhappy with anything that happened.
It's more of the, oh, well, if I was in total control
of this X, Y, z,
and would've, it would, it would happen this way.
Right? Yeah. And so then that goes back to, it's almost,
it's almost like your own personal test of,
am I really a submissive?
'cause it's like , am I dissatisfied enough
to want the freedom to dictate these things?
And I don't, I don't Mm-Hmm.
because all I have to do is in the non kink,
non-sex moment, go, Hey, you know
how we've been playing like this for a while.
It's great. I love it. And you know, ma'am, people pleaser.
I'm gonna make sure you know that I was not unhappy
before I then do the critique sandwich
of Yeah, here's what I'm missing.
Here's what I would really like to experience that.
And then again, and then I step back and he decides,
and then, and he's not perfect.
Okay. He's human. He might forget that I said something.
We might go two or three more scenes
and I'm not, I'm not seeing the thing
that I wish I would see outside of the scene.
I'm gonna check in again.
Hey, did you, and, and sometimes he's gone.
Oh shit, I forgot. 'cause it happens. Mm-Hmm. .
So thankfully I derive pleasure
just from the act of submission.
I, and pleasure is such a wonky word
'cause it encompasses so much, right?
Like, I didn't maybe get off on it,
but I certainly felt good at the end of it.
Mm-Hmm. pleasure for me is not, is
so much more than sexual or erotic.
It's, it's, it's the Yeah, that was good. I'd do that again.
I'm gonna keep going. It's a, i it's a reaffirmation
of oh yeah, this is the role I want.
Mm-Hmm. , this is the partner I want,
this is the relationship I want.
This is the something, something, it reaffirms for me
that I'm in the right place doing the right thing for me.
Yeah. So, okay.
Now here's the one that obviously not everybody is gonna be
like, this is not their thing.
Mm-Hmm. . And that's okay. But we
gotta talk about it.
We have to talk about it because we as in JB
and e experiences, and that is sexual pleasure.
Correct. Which the most common part is the orgasm, right?
Mm-Hmm. . But we have absolutely had sex
where there was no orgasm.
Mm-Hmm. . And in that, here's
where all these things layer, right?
And there's nuance. Sometimes the sex is you are
big D taking what you want from me
because we have that kind of pre-negotiated agreement.
And it's not, it's genuinely not about
my personal sexual pleasure.
You, you don't want me to be unhappy with it or feel bad.
But this is a moment where you're like, oh, I'm getting off
and I'm gonna use whichever one of her aura thises,
I can get to .
And there there will be a getting off of, right? Mm-Hmm.
utilizing Kayla's body. And I agree to that.
And I fucking love it because the pleasure I get from that,
even if I don't get an orgasm from it, is the service,
the submission, the power, the, the claiming
of the, like, this is like my body is then Mm-Hmm.
for a moment, no longer my body.
It is your body. It is my property. Right. .
Who that's, and that's not,
and that can be an erotic pleasure.
That can be Yeah. Sexually arousing
without the orgasm, first of all.
And second of all, it can hit all the other
different pleasure buttons.
Like I'm feeling, I'm feeling like I'm feeling my real,
like baby girl submissive self.
Like Mm. I belong to him and I fucking love that feeling.
And oh, he's so powerful.
And that's like a turn on
or that is, we go back to reaffirming sort of our roles.
It's like, oh, oh,
there's the big D there's the power and control.
That's not the leader. We, there's no leadership here.
There is power and control. Take your daddy like hell yeah.
Right. , uh, I cannot stop grinning.
Thank you. . But then there are the times
where we're doing orgasm control.
Mm-Hmm. . And it's edging
and it's orgasm denial.
And it's forced orgasms
and it's, it's painful orgasms .
Mm-Hmm. , which does get into the sensations,
which is my, like last one in this little list here.
And then the pleasure is not just climactic, right? Yeah.
It's not just the orgasm. It is again, the submission.
It is the control that you have. It is sometimes the pain.
Like I'm like, make it hurt make it so overwhelming
that I scream until my throat is raw
and then I get to walk around
with the sore throat reminder for the rest.
Yeah. Like, that's delightful to me. Right.
Like, make my body feel like we just did like a,
a four hour workout because every muscle clenched
and unc unclenched over and over again.
Right. . Um,
and so even pleasure in sexual pleasure
from a submissive perspective is highly nuanced .
Like, it's not just this one thing, which does bring me back
to the pleasure doms give orgasms thing makes me
just cringe, y'all.
It just does. And I know I've already annoyed the people
who've some kindly, some not so kindly, uh,
were DMing about their thoughts on
how they didn't agree with me last week.
It's fine. Um,
but, you know, it's just pleasure is not well,
even when we're talking about a submissive pleasure,
it's just not even the right word.
'cause it's not enough to describe all
of the different things that can encompass
why you feel good about the thing you did, you know?
Mm-Hmm. . It's just, it's a,
it's a good broad term, but it, it's not nuanced enough.
'cause the pleasure I, and,
and the pleasure I experienced from
scene to scene can be different.
Like there will be common threads of enjoying the power
and control, enjoying the submission.
Yeah. But then there's the, oh,
I had orgasmic pleasure because mm-Hmm.
, I love a good multi-orgasmic thing.
Or I had sexual tension and arousal without an orgasm
because that left me needy. And ty and
- Like, and, and see, I think that's a slippery slope
to slide down on to, uh, you know, say, Ooh,
you know, that last scene we had that was really spectacular
and I want this scene to be like that scene.
Right. You know, and it,
and it's, it, it's not gonna happen.
- You know, not, not - Like detailed.
Not not to the precise detail. Right.
'cause you're, you're now talking about, you know,
everything has to be in perfect alignment. Right?
- I want to happen, I want to recreate the exact thing
that happened this last time.
Yeah. And you can recreate the activities. Mm-Hmm.
. But the way you respond
will could be different.
- Right. You could be in a different head space.
You know, the moon phase could be different.
Temperature can be different. Right. How your body
- Is feeling will be different.
Exactly. How your partner applies.
The sensation will be different because Mm-Hmm.
, I mean, you can say, I could say, okay,
last time we played forced orgasms, you gave me like five
of this, you edged me three times, right?
Mm-Hmm. . And you could follow the,
that guideline again,
but the amount of pressure you apply
with your hand versus which, you know,
how you hold the toy against me, the angle of the toy, like
- Yeah.
- It'll never be identical.
And so there's nothing wrong with wanting the same type
of scene multiple times,
- But you expect the same outcome. Right. And
- Trying to chase a specific form of pleasure so
that you can have it exactly like you had it last time.
I think you set yourself up for disappointment. Correct.
It's right up there with trying to chase subspace. Mm-Hmm.
. Like, ideally, ultimately
what you do is you have a scene or a moment
or a whatever with your partner as a submissive
that you consent to hopefully you're excited about.
Mm-Hmm. that has elements of what you,
what bring you pleasure in the moment, right?
Yep. And then at the end of it, you walk away satisfied,
happy to have done it, willing to do something with
that person again.
Like that is a form of pleasure.
And if you get the same kind of orgasmic pleasure
or erotic pleasure or sexual arousal Mm-Hmm.
that you got in a previous
scene, that's wonderful.
If you go to Subspace, that's wonderful.
But if those are the goals,
then I think you're ultimately gonna be disappointed.
The goal is to find pleasure in general that
as you define it as pleasure.
Mm-Hmm. . But yeah, I think, I think
that you have to be careful about chasing.
I want to feel exactly like I felt mm-Hmm.
on this Tuesday at eight 30 while
strapped to this St.
Andrew's cry. Yeah. Wouldn't we all? Yeah.
What quite frankly, I can think of some scenes where
I was floaty almost immediately.
I could take sensations that I never
would've thought I could take the Mm-Hmm.
the crowd. 'cause it was public play.
The, the, the vibe
and the energy of the crowd watching like all of that.
And I'm like, oh my God, I would kill to have that again.
We may never have that exact right moment again. Correct.
Because it just doesn't work that way. No, it doesn't.
It doesn't. So I, let's see.
And then the last one. Mm-Hmm.
because thi this is the one I ha I would've
put anyway, but I had to put,
because I have to give side eye to the sexual pleasure part
of pleasure doming sensations.
Mm. As pleasure.
Now, the most common sensation that people think
of when they think of the sensations we experience
in kink that is pain.
And I, I get it, it's super common. Mm-Hmm. .
A lot of people like to play with pain.
I think what it gets forgotten is a lot
of people also don't like to play with pain.
True. True. And there are so many more sensations in that,
that you can then derive pleasure.
We, I use this example all the time
because it, I think rewired my brain a bit.
You did a sensual massage scene with me
where the control was, I was not allowed to move.
Mm-Hmm. , I could not.
Uh, and you dictated where and how much
and with what pressure and blah, blah, blah.
How you touched me. And it was slow and it was sensible.
Mm-Hmm. . And by the end of it, I was, once,
I kind of have permission to like move a little bit.
I was fucking writhing.
It touched not a single like direct,
very filled with nerves.
Spot, uh, area.
caused not a lick of fucking pain. None. None.
No pain. Which weirdly, these days I'd be like, oh,
I'm sorry, you're gonna need to pinch something.
Uh, what are we doing here? . .
The sensation was soft. Mm-Hmm. .
There was pressure, but the nothing
that I would ever classify as pain, and it was delightful.
And it was still like top five scene we've ever done
in all of our time together.
Nothing about it was painful. There wasn't even an orgasm.
I don't even think, I think you, we did all of that.
And then you kinda let me come down from it
and then like separately, I think we probably finished
like we had sex.
Yeah. But it wasn't part of that moment. No.
That moment was about you exploring my body. Mm-Hmm.
and me giving up control and letting you
and doing what you said, which was don't move.
Ooh. That was really hard. Uh,
I don't know if y'all can tell I'm a fidgety girl.
. Mm-Hmm. .
Especially if I think if I can move my body at a certain
angle, I can like get right under that fingertip.
Here, I'll just, let me just twist.
Let me just, oh, there, now you're touching the, could
that be seen as topping from the bottom?
Not if you're both having a good time with it.
If I made him smile or laugh. No, .
It's just being a sassy baby girl.
So I, you know, it is always good, especially
for newer subs and newer doms.
Mm-Hmm. to remember that pain is
not the only fucking sensation.
Right. Sexual arousal is not the only sensation. Right.
There's so many sensations now. Mm-Hmm. .
There are some sensations. I mean,
- This baby girl right here,
she loves her freaking butt rubs.
Okay. Oh
- God.
A warm hand. Sometimes my butt is cold.
Not often hot flashes are real, but just that. Yeah.
That it's soothing. Mm-Hmm. .
And then like, you'll squeeze my butt
and sometimes you'll squeeze it painfully.
And I fucking love that. Leave fingertip bruises on my body.
Please. Jesus. I love it. .
But sometimes it's not painful, it's just, it's pressure.
Yeah. It's, it's also a, a form of control.
Like I could make this hurt worse. Mm-Hmm. .
Uh, but I don't have to, I can, you know,
you control that sensation. I
- Got your attention. Fucking love
- It.
. Um, there are sensations
that some people would call painful and I wouldn't Mm-Hmm.
, when we do wax play paraffin
wax that fucking hurts.
That shit hurts. That shit hurts. Soy wax.
I don't consider it painful in the same way.
It's a warm sensation. And sometimes it's a hot sensation.
Like when you step into a hot shower, funnily enough,
I prefer a lukewarm shower.
, I don't like my water. It's too hot.
Um, and that's the other thing to remember.
The way you classify a sensation
and experience a sensation true, is not necessarily
how somebody else experiences it.
And so, one, there's sensations that
you feel that you love that bring you pleasure.
When you try to then describe it to somebody else
and go, oh, you'll probably love this.
It feels like this. The reality is,
is they may have a completely different experience with
that sensation and they would
never describe it the way you describe it.
'cause their body process and their mind
processed it differently.
And so sensa, there's a lot
of experimentation when you're playing
with sensations to find Mm-Hmm.
like what's the threshold of
where it stops being a tolerable and there's still enjoyment
and pleasure sensation.
And it, it tips over into that's a hard limit.
Get it the fuck away from me. Yeah. Kind of sensation.
Um, JB loves to play on that line with me.
, I dunno what you're talking about.
It usually starts with a stinger,
a burn sensation with impact.
And then how long can he stay in that one spot?
Or how much can he amp up the intensity of the sensation
before I'm screaming like yellow or red
because I can't handle it anymore.
Right? Mm-Hmm. . Um,
and there the, for me, the pleasure,
we go back to things I've already said.
The pleasure is not in the sensation.
It's a sensation I tolerate and endure.
The pleasure is in the submission.
The pleasure is in the accomplishment of having endured it.
The pleasure is in the pleasure he's gonna give me
after I do this thing for him.
'cause I'm a good girl who let him have his fun
and now he's gonna let me have my fun now.
Like, Mm-Hmm. . But yeah, I mean,
I'm not a big feather soft.
Like I know that a lot of people love to play with like, um,
gloves that have like fur on
or paddles that have a furry side.
Mm-Hmm. . And I say furry, like
it's faux fur usually.
Um, or yeah, feathers
and feather gestures that I think if, if I'm relaxed enough
and I'm like not still in my head too
much, I'd be fine with it.
And quite frankly, it's not just the sensation,
it's how it's applied.
So I would never wanna say I would never enjoy that,
but it is not a sensation I'm gonna seek, seek out.
I'm gonna seek deep pressure, fuddy,
warm sensations.
I'm gonna, I want it to be just intense enough
that there's no way, I don't know what it is,
but not so intense that I go, oh my God,
I can't, I cannot, I cannot.
I'm dying. Clearly. I'm dying.
My skin is being peeled away from my body.
, I'm dying .
And there's a line and everybody has that line.
Um, but yeah, I mean, anything can be a sensation.
His fingertips running down my skin. That's a sensation.
And it's not, it's not painful.
I mean, his fingernails rang down.
My skin can go from not at all painful
to oh my god, painful.
And I'm usually here for it. , .
He'll do, he'll bite me sometimes
and it starts out, I'm like, okay, I'm okay.
Okay. And then he is like, oh no, I'm going to marker.
Mm-Hmm. . And then I'm like, I am dying.
I, I, I, I have to endure or I have to say word.
What is happening? .
And then, and this is Marx's pleasure.
Then I see the, the result
and the pleasure is the, the satisfaction, the pride
that we're back to those words again.
Mm-Hmm. of, oh look, I've been marked. Right.
Yeah. So I think most of us kind of understand
that there's a million different sensations to experience.
But it does, I think sometimes we need a reminder,
especially when, you know, we get too far into the Well,
I knew that I didn't like pain and I wondered if I was kinky
because I didn't like pain.
Well, you know, pain is common. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah.
A lot of, a lot of people like even just a touch of it,
but plenty of people don't.
It's
- Right.
- So many ways to experience pleasure
as a submissive in general, in kink more broadly.
Yeah. What else would you say?
Because I've said so funny,
- .
I, I think I, I think you have covered it quite well,
and there's very little I can say on
the subject at this point.
- I, you know, I certainly have left some examples out,
some other ways of describing pleasure.
Um, as I said at the top,
these are the ways I sort classified different parts
of pleasure as a submissive from my personal perspective.
So if there's other ways that I didn't think
about, you know, feel free to share.
And also remember that the way I'm feeling pleasure
and describing it and what brings me pleasure
and satisfaction and blah, blah, blah.
mm-Hmm. it, it's unique to me. It does.
You don't, you don't have to find the things
that I find pleasurable that doesn't have
to mean the same thing for you.
I think the acknowledgement is submissives ought
to be experiencing pleasure, however they define it.
Sure. And if their partner is not prioritizing
on some level, I don't mean even like, I, I like that jbs,
like, I'm gonna make sure you get yours,
but I'm gonna make sure I get mine too.
That's the power of this. Right.
But I know that there are doms out there,
and these seem to be the people
who tend to call themselves pleasure.
Doms that have reached out
to me is they prioritize their partner's pleasure.
There's nothing fucking wrong with that.
But let's get real about what pleasure can mean
because it's, it's not as narrow
as some folks want to talk about it.
And then of course, I always like
to do the friendly reminder of, fuck that person who thinks
that the only pleasure a, some should experience is
their pleasure, is the dumb.
Now, I, the other thing, I was thinking about this earlier,
it is very common,
and I don't think it's inherently wrong for a submissive
to start out with.
I want what my dom wants.
I think I said this a little bit ago, right? Mm-Hmm.
, my dom's pleasure is my pleasure.
I think that can be a fun way to play. Mm-Hmm.
. I think there are plenty of submissives
who will play with that, right?
They will have those scenes. We have had those scenes, sure.
But one, it should not be the standard for the entirety
of the power exchange relationship.
I'm given a lot of fucking side eye to a,
I think it's fun to say this.
I think it's fine if that's your ethos. Mm-Hmm.
. Like this is the, the relationship is
as the dom, I control it.
My, you know, my pleasure is paramount.
But then in a, in a subtle
or not so subtle way that Dom should be then saying,
my pleasure is my partner's pleasure as well.
True. True. What will bring me pleasure is making sure
that they're having a good time at some point.
Mm-Hmm. . Right. I think you can play
with the language and the power of
Dom's pleasure is paramount, but
- That should not be the reality.
There are absolutely times when,
when your pleasure is my pleasure.
Right. You know, so, yeah. It, it goes both ways.
It's gotta go both ways
- And rah points out, you know,
you can lose yourself in that type of relationship.
Yeah. And I think that's, that is very, very true. Mm-Hmm.
, you know, it's, I think a lot
of newer subs come in
and they don't know enough yet about
what they want or submission.
And I know I've said it Mm-Hmm. .
Like, I, I said it after the fact
and I've said it like, we know one another
and I know what this is gonna mean.
I want what you want. Your pleasure is my pleasure. Right.
The only thing I want is whatever my dom wants.
Um, and I, I, I agree with rah rah, that you,
you can lose yourself to that.
Mm-Hmm. . And I think it's important
for submissives to figure out what they like with their dom
or independent of their dom, you know, however that works.
The, the thing I'm gonna give the most side eye to, like,
I'm gonna be very forgiving
of a submissive who feels that way.
Especially early days.
'cause I'm gonna go, okay, you, you
hadn't had enough experience yet.
There's still more to learn. Mm-Hmm. .
You'll figure out what you like
and hopefully you'll learn how to communicate that.
The person I'm given the most fucking side eye
to is the dominant who genuinely fucking is like out there
saying and believing that their submissives
personal pleasure is in no way a priority.
And what makes this kinky
and what makes this power exchange is
that the dom gets what the dom wants.
Look, in my perfect world,
JB would have every fucking thing he ever wants,
ever in and out of kink.
And I would be the one to provide it. Realistically.
- . Yeah. - Not a fucking chance.
Never gonna fucking happen. Right.
Because some things you want, they're just not practical.
Some things you want aren't actually
safe enough to be Mm-Hmm.
for us to be willing to take the risk,
he's gonna want some shit that I just can't do.
'cause it's not, it's not that it's not pleasurable.
It's that it's so miserable that I,
my brain shuts down thinking about it.
Right. Like, I, I reject it. Totally.
And that gets to be okay.
The whole thing about finding any
power exchange that will work for you.
It's the Venn diagram of the doms desires, needs, wants,
what brings em pleasure, submissives, desires, wants, needs,
what brings them pleasure.
Mm-Hmm. . And where they cross
and how much they cross over.
'cause it's in that middle part where you share commonality
that you go, oh, this is where we can play.
This is where we can have fun.
And over time, it's entirely possible for somebody
who said, that's off limits.
I'm never doing that to go, actually,
I've learned more about it.
I feel safer. I trust this partner.
I know that there's different ways to explore this.
I'm just fucking interested in it.
'cause I've been exposed to it more.
And you can change your mind. And then the, the middle part
of your Venn diagram, you'll come a little closer together
and it'll grow and expand together.
And sometimes you have a Venn diagram with this partner,
and then there's a connecting Venn diagram over here.
'cause you got maybe another partner
and you can expand out that way.
Mm-Hmm. . But that's, I think that's the,
the thing that too many people forget where you're playing
and finding mutual pleasure
and power exchange is the crossover of your kinks.
Mm-Hmm. Your likes, your wants Mm-Hmm. All that
- There.
And I, and I think too, there, I'm,
I'm thinking this is listening to you talk, you know,
when you, when you get a a, a submissive that comes
and says, you know,
I want whatever you want for your pleasure.
That, that's actually a, to me that would kind
of be a little bit of a red flag.
- We have classified as a red flag before.
- Yeah. Um, you know, because that, that's no different.
As somebody coming up and saying, I have no boundaries.
- Yes, you do bubby. - Okay.
I mean, just know what they're yet , you know,
because a, a again, somebody coming up
and saying, all I want is to give you your pleasure.
Okay, well my pleasure is I want you
to cut off your left pinky finger. Right,
- Right, right.
Okay. And then that's when somebody finds
immediately that they have a boundary.
Yeah. . Yeah.
- So, you know. Mm-Hmm. It, it, it's, it's the same,
same kind of thing there too that's kind of, you know,
because it, it, it doesn't work.
It ha there has to be some kind of balance.
- Right. And I think that once you know somebody well enough
to have, have negotiated
where the boundary is, what the limits are.
Mm-Hmm. , you know, what you're mutually into
that you would be willing to experience together.
And you've developed some level
of trust to be able to do that.
I think then you can play in the pond
of I want what you want.
Yeah. Right. Because you've, you've set the guidelines so
that everybody is gonna be as safe
as it is possible to be safe.
Mm-Hmm. when you're getting kinky.
Um, and I think that's what gets missed.
It's like, that's the fantasy we go back to the thing
that we're constantly trying to do.
It's like, yeah, I get the fantasy is fun. Mm-Hmm.
the fantasy is airbrushed and black and white,
and everybody has whatever their version
of a perfect body is.
. Right? Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm.
. However, we actually live
in reality. . Yeah.
- Yep. - And so, you know, none
of us are doing kink wrong just
because we can't have the fantasy in our head.
We're just, we're just dealing
with the reality that we have.
And the reality is, you can play that way temporarily.
Mm-Hmm. . But it should not be the first
ever fucking scene.
And my personal opinion is
that should not be the whole basis of the relationship.
Whatever you want. I want not, not totally.
Because that, I think you can say
that if you put the asterisk
and the asterisk, the note at the bottom is,
but my partner knows what I want and respects that.
Like I've, I've communicated my needs.
I've communicated what brings me pleasure.
I communicated what does not bring me pleasure
and I don't want Right.
Like, that's like the footnote that has
to be there if you're gonna like, swim in that, that pool
of, of trying to have that kind of power exchange.
And I know people who try to have that kind
of power exchange, but it is the best ones, the ones
that are the most responsible, heavily negotiated,
very clear, you know, limits and boundaries.
Yeah. And, and those are always respected.
And that's how you can play with that.
Um, I just think most
of us have too many different sides to who we are.
To only play in that. I think that Mm-Hmm.
, you know, I'm, I'm going to
be a little nervous for a submissive
who never in the entirety of a relationship with a dom,
feels like, figures out what they personally enjoy,
expresses it and gets to experience it in the way
that works with their power exchange.
Like what is happening here? Right. Mm-Hmm. .
I just don't think that's a, typically,
that's not a well-rounded, balanced
power exchange is, you know.
Yeah. But I also think we need to get clear on
what the fuck we mean by pleasure
and to realize it's not just a specific sensation
or an orgasm pleasure is so much fucking more Oh yeah.
Than that. Yep. Right.
And the things that I get from my submission, my service,
kinky sex pain, the sensations I just like outside of pain
isn't just, oh, I'm super happy now.
Or Oh, I, you know, I got off like sometimes. Yeah. Yeah.
But I feel so much more that I classify as pleasure
and it's what keeps me fucking going.
It's not just that I have a great partner
who also communicates their needs with me
and listens to me and respects me.
One that brings me a great deal of pleasure. Wow.
Who are they? I'd like to meet them. You stop that
and a how partner who within the bounds
of our power exchange lets me be who the fuck I am.
Like that brings me pleasure all by itself.
again, that goes back to, I know there can be,
it can be like a fun little game.
It can be a fantasy, it can be a scene to Mm-Hmm.
fundamentally be different than
who you are for the scene.
Right. Or to talk about the, I will, you know, unmake you
and remake you and not like, I'm not gonna say break you.
'cause that makes me very nervous. 'cause most people
who are offering to break you are actually
just being abusive assholes.
Um, but, you know,
a submissive should, they might modify their behavior.
Mm-Hmm. they might be trained
to behave a certain way.
There can be some, some fun times with that.
But a submissive should be allowed to be basically
who the fuck they are too.
Right? Right. Like, you should not have to
minimize your self, your entire personality, your thoughts,
your opinions to be
in a healthy power exchange,
and then not be allowed to admit
that you're, you're unhappy with that.
Because I think that, I think that while it,
it fits a fantasy
or it fits in the moment, the type of power exchange
that maybe you're like, this is what I crave,
or this is what I think I want.
I think it might work temporarily
for some people, but not a lot.
But I think eventually you're gonna grow as a person
or you're just gonna shift and change as a person.
'cause life shifts and changes. Right? Mm-Hmm.
, I, we've met too many people that
what they've gone through, we would not call growth
'cause they were just not that self-aware .
But the things that satisfy you, bring you pleasure,
you're willing to do for a partner
will over time shift and change.
And if you've had to minimize who you are
and convince yourself that not getting to be
who you are in this relationship is making you happy,
we're either gonna be staying in denial even longer
or there's just gonna be misery at the other end there.
Right? Mm-Hmm. like a compatible partner sees
who you are and goes, yeah, I like that, that that appeal.
That person appeals to me that I wanna be with
that person right there.
Mm-Hmm. now power exchange,
the subtlety and the nuances.
But I might want them to behave in specific ways
as my submissive under these circumstances.
Right. Like, it actually is not in my nature
to be disrespectful to anybody.
Too much of a fucking people pleaser.
But the rule being, I can say anything I wanna say as long
as I'm respectful, touches two things.
Right. One, it reminds me, I can say whatever I need to say,
I'm safe to do that.
But two, it reminds me that, uh, look, actually Kayla,
when you get angry, you're a bitch from fucking hell.
If you feel safe, I'm gonna need you to, to,
to pull back on that a little bit.
Right. . And that was not me fundamentally changing
who I was to be his submissive.
It was me choosing, I think, rightly so,
to modify my behavior while still being able
to express myself freely.
So he air quote this, 'cause it gets used a lot
and I don't think people understand it.
Air quote trained me to behave a certain way. Right.
There were consequences when I was too, couldn't call
that shit sassy .
But I didn't have to be somebody other than
who I am to do that.
Right. To then say I have found pleasure as a submissive
to have a dom who wanted to give me pleasure.
'cause the person who wants you to fundamentally change
who you are, they're, they're
not interested in your pleasure.
'cause they're not interested in who you
are as an individual.
Mm-Hmm. , they see, oh, you're a submissive.
I'll make you into the submissive.
I want you to be regardless of who you actually are.
Correct. The pleasure you feel is usually is gonna be
temporary if you feel pleasure at all.
Mm-Hmm. typically when people go
through some version of that, they,
that's when I get the email that's like, is this normal
to be this miserable ?
It's not. It might be typical. It's, it's not normal now.
It is not normal. So that is my lecture for the day.
- .
And what a fine lecture it was. Professor sir .
- Anyway. - Okay. .
- I could keep going,
but I think I'd just be talking in circles as I often do.
Okay. So I'm gonna say,
- Alright, so we're ready to move on to a bonus section.
- Sure. - Okay. So are we good ?
- That's not for me to say. - Keep, keep it kinky all I'll
- See you next week.
Daddy.
- Yes girl. - Can we talk to the crickets, please?
- Oh, now it's, we sure
- I did.
I mean, I always do a lot of talking in these episodes.
We know who I am, but I did I think more than usual .
- Well, you yeah. - I kind of get to when it's a,
a submissive focused topic.
- , it's a little hard for me to speak from that.
That Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
- But - True. So, okay. So, uh, yeah, go ahead.
Okay. We, we can speak to the crickets.
- Okay. Uh, folks who have watched the YouTube stream slash
video, we're time traveling here from the beginning.
I probably already heard this, but Yeah.
Um, Lola is,
cannot currently be in the office with us.
and ha had to go sit in her crate
because she can't go
outside in the backyard like she wants to.
Mm-Hmm. because we currently are
missing, uh, a
- Fence, fence along one side on long
- 'cause our neighbor is getting a new fence.
- Right. The, the fence on the one side
is, is actually our neighbors.
Mm-Hmm. . Um, and she is putting a
new fence around her entire yard. Mm-Hmm.
- Beautiful. It's vinyl
- Fence.
Yeah. It's, it's, it's a beautiful fence. Mm-Hmm.
. And, um, yesterday they came in and,
and ripped all the old fence out.
Mm-Hmm. . So yeah.
Lola cannot, uh, go out in the backyard unsupervised,
which means we put her in her harness yesterday
and, um, she has to stay in the harness until
all the kerfuffle is Yeah. Over.
- Yeah. Once they get, and I think they're actually
there's start on the other side.
Yeah. So we'll be the last bit of the fencing. Mm-Hmm.
. But once they get our side
fully finished Yeah.
Which almost wasn't gonna happen until Mm-Hmm.
you started making phone calls. Yeah.
And our neighbor sent apparently a strongly
worded email, uh,
- .
- Yeah. Um, we were gonna be left with a gap. Mm-Hmm.
that no, the the fence company people had come
out, given her a full estimate, talked about
where she wanted to move her fence to
that would've caused our gap
and then left it to her to explain to us,
Hey, this is what I'm doing my fence.
Yeah. And she's not a fence expert.
I would not expect her to go, oh,
that's gonna leave you with a gap.
I wonder how that's gonna be since we finally
like realized like, wait.
Mm-Hmm. . And then like, almost had to like,
I don't wanna be like too hyperbolic here.
It wasn't like the worst thing,
but it was like the fencing company.
People were not bending over backwards to go, oh yeah, yeah.
You are gonna have a gap. Uh, here are your options. Right.
Like we, between us
and our neighbor kind of had to chase them down.
Mm-Hmm. to be like, hi, how can,
how can you help us with the big
hole we're gonna be left with?
So the hole is gonna be fixed.
, we're gonna have a full fence. Mm-Hmm.
. Um, it's,
and it's gonna, it they're gonna finish
the vinyl all the way down.
Yeah. Uh, is it an expense we did not expect? Yes. Yes. Yes.
It's, um, is it better than having a hole for
however long it takes for us to purchase the materials?
Mm-Hmm. watch the YouTube videos,
put up a slightly wonky Yeah.
Session and then let our dog out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
So, Mm-Hmm. . Yeah.
But Lola has this howl that, so she'll do like the,
the, the tester howl, like, oh, woo.
Right. Like, are you listening? Are you paying attention me?
And most of the time when she can come
and go as she pleases at that first
how you're opening the door
to let her reiterate, let her out.
If you don't immediately respond to the tester howl,
we get into the howls
that literally sound like you have broken her heart.
Yeah. And she is sobbing. Oh my gosh. Sobbing.
Every submissive who's ever been broken up
with that sobbing.
Right. That's what it's like. Okay.
And I can say that 'cause I've been there. It's pitiful.
Oh my God. To the point.
I mean, our neighbor Wendy, 'cause that's our neighbor here.
This is the one we talked to.
'cause we don't really talk to these neighbors.
Neighbor on, on the one side who's getting a new fence
has said she sounds like she's just pitiful.
And I'm like, you can hear her.
But it's 'cause when she's out, when Lola's outside
and wants to come in, that if you don't immediately go
to the door to let her in, she'll she'll do that
to come in as well.
Yeah. Which, mm-Hmm.
means that if JB leaves to go somewhere I am.
And I still do. I'm not,
I don't stop my life 'cause the damn dog.
But if you, if I let Lola out, I am terrified to go pee
to go take a shower, to go answer the front door
to get on a phone call.
And he pro like I was, I spent a couple days Mm-Hmm.
. But you were, I think you were actually
working in the shop and you were noise canceling earbuds.
So he can't hear shit other
than his music while he is working.
And I was like, I'll go take a shower.
And I am, I could hear her in the shower. Shower Yeah.
Water going and everything. Yeah. And she just kept it up.
And then she'll die down and get kind of quiet. Mm-Hmm.
. And about 30 seconds
later she starts back up.
Starts back up. It's like, oh, in case you didn't hear
me hear it the first time.
And so I'm trying to finish my shower as quickly as I can
and she's just steady going.
Yeah. Even our across the street neighbor. Got to see her.
'cause since she can't go in
and outta the backyard, we gotta take her on walks.
Right. You know, we gotta do that. And you were taking
her on a walk yesterday.
Mm-Hmm. . And came across the ne the across the
street neighbor who he, they're nice enough.
We don't like, they,
they're not people we would have, we would be friends with.
Like, it's Mm-Hmm. , you know, but he
- Loves Oh yeah.
He adores her for Oh
- My God.
And so, and she adores him
'cause she adores anybody who adores her .
- Um - Right.
And he even commented, he's like, oh yeah,
I hear you sometimes. I'm like, oh my god.
- Right. - They're gonna think we are
abusing this poor baby.
- Yeah. - So, yeah.
So that's, uh,
and we were recording podcast slash video for Monday
and she started up, oh God.
And we eventually, I don't know how the cut's gonna go.
'cause it was one of those things where we had to stop,
pause, get her out of the room.
'cause she was howling so bad that then
by the time we got her settled, I was like,
what the fuck was I actually saying?
? And so that ought to be interesting.
But there are times where we thought, oh,
she'll, she'll stay calm.
And it was just one or two little howls.
- No, it was just to build up to the, uh,
open build howl. Just build up. Yeah.
- Absolute build up. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah.
I mean, one side, it's one side
of our fence line is gonna look beautiful.
Mm-Hmm. the other side.
This is what's so funny.
The side that desperately needs to be replaced.
We don't own the, the fence on either side.
Those are our neighbor's fences.
So we are beholden to them Yeah.
For whatever they're gonna do with their fence.
And our, the neighbor on the other side, that's the fence
that desperately needs to be replaced.
And they're clearly the way they patch it up, it's like,
okay, they're not in a position to replace the damn thing.
I mean, it is at least standing at this point.
And for a while it wasn't quite vertical
- .
Yeah.
- So, - And uh, I've done some patching to it myself. Yep.
- And yeah, we've gone out there, we were still in PJ's
because it was falling down so bad
and he's like, got his drill thing.
He's like, hold it up. I'm like, okay.
When we're depending on me to hold something up. Yeah.
We are fucked. So, yeah.
Uh, there was something else
that I was gonna, I was gonna leave for the bonus section
and I can't think of what it was.
- Um, it was in, in our trip to
Gainesville for the concert.
Oh, we talk about that? Yeah. Oh yeah.
- Oh yeah. Okay. . Sorry. Mom Pride.
Just blast outta my face. . Okay.
So this past Sunday, um, the oldest
and he had told us, like for once,
he told us like a month in advance.
Yeah. He's like, I have a performance Sunday, February 25th.
- He, he had a very special reason to tell this, this in
- Advance.
Right. And he was like, and you have to be there.
And I was like, well, I would be there regardless, but okay.
Thank you for actually telling me
more than two hours before it starts.
Uh, which is how he did the last
type of performance like this.
And it's not a full concert performance.
It's his studio where he plays euphonium
and it's euphonium players and tuba players.
It's little brass kind of thing for any band geeks.
You know what that means? Mm-Hmm. .
And so he's like, no, you, you have to be there.
And he finally did like, like tell us before the concert,
but getting to see it was a whole different experience.
. So this performance, um, they had,
it was the professor explained was student led.
So she put them into groups,
like quartets or whatever, gave them music.
And then they had to get their shit together as a group
to be able to perform it for this performance.
But the group decided they also wanted to do it
as a whole ensemble.
They didn't wanna just be in little quartets or whatever.
And so, um, that was student conducted.
'cause the thing is student led, one of the pieces
that was played
and conducted was all done by the 18-year-old
who had never conducted before in his life.
Mm. And has been practicing it, writing
and composing music for a couple years,
but had never like, fully finished one
and had it approved by, you know, fucking professionals.
Yeah. Professionals. You know what they're talking about.
And so I knew we were gonna record it, like of course.
Mm-Hmm. . Um, thankfully JB
knows me better than I know myself.
. I'm sitting there. I enjoyed
where he did his little quartet with his little group.
That was fine. And then it was time for him to come out
and to conduct this piece of, it's, this group is
freshman up to like doctoral level students.
. Like it's an age range.
And, um, I pull my phone up, I'm gonna start recording it,
and I look over and J B's got his phone up.
And for years in high school, I recorded everything.
But it meant that I could only watch concerts like
through my phone camera.
Mm-Hmm. . And it's, it's,
it's a different vibe when you watch that way.
And so I look at JB and he's got his phone.
I'm like, are you gonna record this?
And he goes, yeah, you don't have to.
I'm like, oh, thank God. And thank God he did.
Because the moment that child came out
and put holding the conductor one
and put his arm up, the tears just, I've like,
I've done proud mom things with this child
and I have cried every time.
But I was holding myself back from
weeping audibly.
Mm-Hmm. Weeping . Yep. Oh my God.
I was like, and then I was watching him like a hawk.
'cause I am enough of a former band geek
to understand conducting a little
bit, but I've never done it.
I you, it's one of those things, you know,
what it looks like when it's done really well
and you kind of know when it's not.
And you could tell he was a beginner.
He was so nervous and he did fine.
Like he had been, um, the students in his studio,
uh, a senior had given him lessons on conducting
so he could do this.
Like this was so much support.
And so, but what I could tell is his mom is
how nervous he was.
So of course I was nervous for him.
Much like the very first trombone solo he ever played. Yeah.
When he had never in band played trombone.
He was totally self-taught.
And then he had this like, crazy ass solo
and I'm sitting there holding my breath
and crying at the same time somehow. And he
- Had this beat and battered
- Tro trombone trombone that oh
- My God.
He bought a garage sale. So like for five bucks
- I've been there with witnessing him do a very brave thing
for the first time Yeah.
As a performer. And this was one of them.
But I was like, I almost forgot to listen to the music.
'cause I was watching him conduct .
- So - I was like, if he falls out, I'm jumping down there,
I'm gonna go, what am I gonna do?
I don't know. So then, so weeping, weeping through this,
um, , the whole performance thing finishes.
And he had told us he couldn't, we have,
when we do this thing, every time we go to one
of his performances, we go get Culver's afterwards.
Um, he was like, I can't do that this time.
I've gotta immediately go from this performance
to pep band practice
to doing homework all in the same building.
Yeah. 'cause it was music related.
So it was like, okay, we're only gonna
get like 30 seconds with him.
This is, this is how, you know, they're growing up,
I guess in a healthy way.
We had to stand in line to get to talk to him
because his fellow band folks,
his studio members were congratulating
him and talk to him and whatever.
Mm-Hmm. . And then one friend came down
and talked to him, and then another friend
who was in the part of the group came down
and we're just standing there.
Like, at some point he'll come see his, his family
- Fiddle on our thumbs.
I hope he doesn't forget us, you know? Right.
- But - Yeah, now that he's, he's, he's famous, you know,
he just kick us to the curb. But,
- So Yeah.
- Yeah. - And then I forgot to my mom, I gotta see my mom
for part of a day on Monday.
Um Mm-Hmm. .
And I meant to, to get your phone and either show her
or try to send the video.
I dunno if it's too long to actually be sent.
I'll have to, but see she has an iPhone.
I could have like dropped it to her. Yeah.
- Forgot. It's, it's five and a half minutes.
- I think that might be too long to, to send.
I'll have to find another way. But yeah.
So yeah, proud, proud parent moments.
Um, and then he was, I think .
I try not to be embarrassing ,
you know, an obvious way.
But you know, I exist so
therefore I embarrassed my children.
And so I hugged him, told him how proud I was of him.
Said, sorry, I cried. And he was still drying my tears,
even though like, it had been several minutes at that point.
And he, he, he was, he was smiling
and he like, looked proud,
but also he was like, oh my god, shut up mom.
You could see that look on his face.
He wouldn't say it to me publicly.
He would wait till it was private
and he could be a little shit about it.
But, um, yeah.
So yeah, it was good. Mm-Hmm. . That was
- Good. Yeah. It was very cool.
- And then we go back in a couple weeks
'cause he's got another performance.
- The, the symphonic
band. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. .
- Mm-Hmm. . I know. It was just like, ugh.
And then I was really excited
because I was like, this means we have his first ever time
conducting recorded.
And so as he goes through college
and then whatever he is gonna do, you know,
specifically afterwards, it's like, oh, we get
to watch the evolution and be like, yes,
when you're really good at this,
let me pull out this video. . Right.
- remind you - Of where you started .
- Right. - So
- Yeah.
Yeah. It, it's funny when, um, he, he first,
uh, I became interested in band
when he was in middle school, he would not practice.
He would fight tooth and nail about practicing.
And there, there were times, um, he would be like,
if I just blow in the mouthpiece in the
closet, is that enough? ? Yeah.
- He was a trumpet player so he could, you know. Yeah.
Just use his mouthpiece a little
- Bit.
Mm-Hmm. . So that was , you know, it is
- Fun.
Yeah. It is wild to see the evolution from Yes.
Trumpet player who never practiced,
but eighth grade graduation, he helped com compose in a,
a much looser sense of the term.
Mm-Hmm. a piece that they played at eighth
grade graduation when he finished middle school.
Yeah. Should have known then to ninth grade
where he does high school band for,
and he does marching band for the first time.
And in marching band, if you don't know,
there's a lot of shouting.
There's a lot. Sometimes there's dancing, there's Mm-Hmm.
wild moves that if you are not used to it,
you're like, what the fuck is going on here?
There's lots of school and team pride.
Like, it's just part of the nature of it. Yeah.
And in ninth grade, he was like, I am never dancing
and I'm not shouting anything.
And by his senior year, he
- Was Oh, the - Loudest person.
- He was, he was leading the charge and
- Getting on to, well, freshmen who would not yell or dance.
And I was like, yeah, yeah,
- Yeah.
It, it's, it was, it's funny to see the
- Evolution has been amazing.
Yeah. Yeah. And now he is playing an, his main instrument
minimum on most days of the week.
Three or four hours. Like, it's just,
- Yeah.
- I mean, he'll, he'll go to the practice rooms at like
midnight if that's the time he has in his day
to get some practice in.
I'm like, I cannot even imagine. But yeah.
- Yep. Very proud - Of him. Mm-Hmm.
- Very, - Very proud.
Uh, mama For sure.
- Yeah. - So.
- Yep. Yep. - But yeah. Mm-Hmm. .
Other than that, I guess it's same old, same old. Mm-Hmm.
. So could we keep talking? Of course we could.
'cause we're real good at that. Are we
gonna, we should stop.
Probably should stop. Stop. We got, we need
to take Lola out . Yeah.
- Take - Her for a real walk.
- Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes.
- That's cool thing. So yeah, that's it for us this week.
Yep. Uh, I have no clue what we're talking about next week.
Uh, we will have to figure that out.
- We'll figure it out, .
- Um, we'll figure it out. So we will. Mm-Hmm.
catch all next week.
- Thanks for joining us. Mm-Hmm.
being here with us, especially
- To the bitter end.
Yeah. Uh, okay.
- Bye. Bye.