Thanks for pressing play. If you love the
Ser magic that can only occur in a
real conversation, you're in the right place. This
is Christopher Lock follow you're different. The number
1 real dialogue
Cast for business leaders, entrepreneurs and category designers
with a different mind.
Today's guest is the legendary Kelly Clan. A
neuroscientist with a profound understanding of the intricate
connections between games and human behavior.
Kelly brings a unique perspective, exploring the dual
nature of games as both trivial past times
and profound cognitive exercises.
Her insights into how games have been inspired
thinkers throughout history and continue to shape our
understanding of intelligence and social structures are truly
enlighten.
In her new book, Kelly delve into the
compelling nature of games, their impact on our
minds and their role in society.
She makes a strong case for their acceptance
as an art form and a vital component
of human cognition. In this episode, Kelly and
Christopher discussed the deep seated significance of games
in our lives.
From ancient times to the modern era of
video games and Ai.
They explore how games serve as mental scaffolding
for understanding complex social systems and how they
can be seen as a micro of societal
rules and structures.
Kelly's research illuminate the universal of play across
species. The transformative power of games and their
potential as tools for learning and social bonding.
Whether you're a gamer, a thinker or someone
curious about the broader implications of play, Kelly's
insights offer a fresh and thought provoking lens
on the world of games and their profound
impact on our lives.
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com. Now as Joey Ra ramon said, hey
h, let's go.
Well, Kelly, I've been looking for today for
quite a while. How are you? I'm good.
Thanks. How are you? Thanks for having me.
I'm great. Very happy to see you. Yeah.
Good to be here. And I gotta tell
you I I'm a big fan of your
work. I really appreciate your new book.
And the world that you... I think you
live in is a very fascinating 1. Thank
you. And so maybe let me ask you,
why do games matter?
Games have this kind of
dual image of both being super trivial and
unimportant while also being this kind of like,
the ap of of intelligence and
you know, like, we think of chess masters
as being brilliant and there's been this kind
of long history of games,
inspiring philosophers and scientists and
mathematicians to think in kind of new ways.
And so
the reason I kind of was drawn to
games
was
this
kind of
strange duality of of how people talk about
them, how we think about them. You know,
there's like, there's been a movement to try
to get games
accepted as, like, an art form, which they
certainly are. But I think there's something even
deeper than that where they're this form of
thinking. They're are kind of, like, way that
our mind works.
And
that is
what was so compelling to me as a
as a neuroscientist scientist.
This might be inappropriate, but Gonna say it
anyway. You're fucking legendary.
That is great.
And so
as I sort of dove into your work,
my... My mind went in all sorts of
places.
So let me take it to the first
place it went,
which is
If a game is mental scaffolding for how
something's is going to function in some way
with
carrots and sticks,
rewards and consequences.
That are generally agreed upon by the people
in the game. Yeah.
What's the difference between
monopoly
and
the mental scaffolding on on which the United
States of America is built or
the thinking behind capitalism or the thinking behind
socialism
or any other
generally agreed upon construct for
carrots and sticks
amongst human and beings.
So I I went right there. Tell me,
tell me about what you think about that,
why that's wrong why that's right or how
you think about it?
No. Yeah.
That's a wonderful question. I really agree that
there there really is not a difference
particularly
between
games and
the the rules that we use to kind
of generate society.
This was something... This is kind of like
a long standing intuition. Plato believed that
games were this, like, really important form of
civic education because children would learn how to
like, follow rules. And then as adults, they
would know how to follow laws. And he
thought this was really important. And also that
we shouldn't allow Children to change the rules
of games because then as adults they might
get the terrible notion that they could change
laws.
So
it
ultimately is the same,
like, kind of mental facility that allows us
to
embody these games allows us to
participate in these different social structures. And this
was also something...
I love the book, Dawn of everything by
when grown grab, and they talk a lot
about,
it's a it's a kind of history of
few of humanity.
And it's not the clean,
like, you know,
Russo
idea of, like, we were these, like, hunter
gatherers, and then we got agriculture in Blah.
It's, like, really messy and really complicated and
completely all over the place. And the beauty
of it is that they bring up again
and again and how playful
human social structures have been
throughout history. Like, there was often some kind
of like, carnival season where people would
try out new
social structures
where they would
you know, and, like, for example, for in
venice, Carnival, like, they would... People would wear
masks, be anonymous,
poor people could hang out with rich people,
you could be anyone and you could act
like anything.
Yeah. Sorry interrupt. Right.
No. Yeah. So there's a a long kind
of tradition of humans using played to
idea on new social structures or, like, try
new things out and and sometimes, like, really
genuinely
come up with
novel,
governance.
It's so fascinating.
So the way I think about your work
is
you're giving me a new lens.
And
that's the kind of work.
I generally appreciate the most. I appreciate all
kinds of work,
but
for me, a new lens is when somebody
has done some
serious thinking about thinking. 1 of our favorite
expressions around here is thinking about thinking is
the most important kind of thinking.
And so for you to have the audacity
to say, sort of why games matter,
and what do they stand for? And why
do human beings play them? And why
what was the bone 1?
I heard you talking about that's been played
for how many?
Oh.
0, yeah. The, I think
this kind of knuckle bone Yeah. Knuckle bone
game that kids in Central Asia Play. They,
you know, I think they have some evidence
of it being played for like, 7000 years.
So, you know, a while. So human beings
have been playing data.
And so
let me ask you this question. How do
you define... So first of all, sorry let
me finish the thought. Thinking about thinking is
the most important kind of thinking.
And
as I consume your work, your thinking,
what becomes clear is you're giving me a
new lens on games,
But not really a new lens on games.
It's a new lens on human beings, and
it's actually more than just a lens on
human beings because
In my studio right here are
cat who identifies as a dog.
He's part me tune. So he's very dog
like his name bean. Oh, nice. And You
just have to hang around him for a
few seconds to understand animals love to play
games too. Yeah. And so there's something not
just human, but there's something
about living beings and you'll hopefully educate me
a little. And so at the point I'm
saying is that you've given us a game
a game lens
that's really a life lens.
And so I really appreciate that.
Well, thank you. I'm glad, Yeah. III
certainly also don't think I'm the first person
to point this out. There's a great book
from the forties by
John H.
Don't exactly know how to pronounce this name,
but it's Homo, like, man the player, and
it's just, like, wonderful. A lot of people
and humanity's know about it. I didn't know
about it until I sort of researching this
book, but it's all about how humans kind
of inhabit games as, you know, formalities and
even, like ritual,
like, religious re rituals are kind of game
like in there... You know, there's rules and
there's like, a sacred circle and things in
the same way that there's, like a play
circle.
Where it rules,
the the game rules like, have to
end somewhere.
And yeah, I mean, I think that's also
just something so
profound about games is how universal play is.
It's
even bumblebee
appear to play. It's like, all over the
Animal kingdom.
Rats play, like, everything...
Not everything, but a lot of animals play.
So it seems like a really important lens
for, like, how we engage with the world.
And, you know, evolution doesn't
keep things around if they're not useful. So
the fact that it's been conserved is is
a really profound,
sort of
mark in its favor for being something important.
And it's funny that... Yeah, Again, it's kinda
funny that it's so trivial because it's so
clearly, like, kids don't stop playing, even as
adults like, something that's really
different about humans compared to other animals is
that we keep playing as adults, like it's
called neo.
We exhibit these child like behaviors well into
adulthood, and that's often a sign of a
more intelligent species that they
keep
young in Half the adults in America for
ball now.
A whole new category of game.
That's right. Yeah. People... And that's the other
great thing is that we're always inventing new
games. Like,
even, you know, people are iterating on chess,
like, making new rules for chest chest has
been, you know, changed over the centuries and
will contain to change to keep it fresh
and interesting or, like, then you get things
like sports where people are doing money ball
where
I think sports get really... They're... Are starting
to get really kind of dry because it's
just being optimized to death.
After they've been analyzed. So... Well, and now
we're learning that maybe chemistry
and teamwork
and leadership and things that are more squishy
than algorithms,
and algorithms are very important,
but those matter a lot too. Right?
The the the underdog b to the champ.
And so how would you define Kelly game?
Let's set this sort of
the table for how you would like me
and everyone to think about what is a
game?
Yeah.
So I think a game is
formally kind of like, a system endowed with
a goal that players
involved in it are trying to achieve. And
so... And there are rules restricting how they
can get to that goal. So for example,
like golf, you're trying to get a ball
into a hole, and
you can only do that by hitting the
ball with funny sticks. You can't, like, pick
it up and walk it over and drop
it in. And there's also something
about
uncertainty in games. Like I think that's a
really
essential aspect of games where
there's some
form of not knowing what's gonna happen, and
that could be, for example, with dice where
you don't know what
the next number is gonna be or it
could be with chess where
every move it no move is like, random,
but you don't know exactly what move your
partner, your... You know, your opponent's gonna make.
And then there's, you know, games like Tic
tac toe, where as adults we know how
it will end. But for a kid who
hasn't learned that it almost always ends in
a draw if you play it. Right? They're
still uncertainty in the game. That's why it's
still enjoyable for them is, like, they they
don't know like, they're still learning into in
it. So there's something important about this aspect
of uncertainty and kind of
that, you know, being the crux of a
game,
And I think part of what... And that's
actually a really important part of what makes
games compelling because uncertainty is, like,
really
captivating to brains. It's
basically, our brains are
trying to make predictions about the world
trying to have models of the world.
And if there's something
uncertain in the world, there's something that it
doesn't doesn't know how to predict or can't
really
anticipate that is fascinating because that means it
doesn't have the model yet. It it needs
to learn more about it. So
it's just, like, important learning signal where it's,
like, a red flag, and it says, like,
here's something to learn. It's interesting. I mean,
I'm a big sports fan is many folks
are, and 1 of the great things about
all kinds of sports is
on every... On any given Sunday,
And then the other 1 I love, I'm
a big, boxing in Martial Arts fan, and
1 of the great expressions in boxing is
everybody's got a Punch chance.
Right?
I'm bigger than you, and I might have
more fight experience than you, but the reality
is if you and I were to engage
for some horrible reason,
who knows? And... Everybody's got a punch chance.
And so it is that uncertainty, that randomness
And then there's another thing too in games,
particularly in sports, but it can certainly be
maybe maybe not quite
articulated as such, but the thrill
in us in a am
in sort of a chess or something along
those lines can be very similar.
It's a shared experience
that the audience, the fan base, the cult,
the the raider nation
is having together.
And so...
Oh, and and 1 other thing before I
ask my question. And, of course, today,
we have huge stadiums
that sell out
where people watch people
play fucking video games. Oh alright. Yeah. And
if you had told me that, I would've
said, well, hey, man. Whatever pot you're smoking,
could you please get me some?
And so there's a... There's also a spectator
element,
alive in in in much of this.
Maybe speak to that dynamic as well, Kelly.
That's an interesting point.
Actually, I was 1 of those kids who...
Prefer to watch my sister's play video games
and playing them myself. And then when esports,
when I learned about them, Like, yeah, That
kinda makes sense. That seems that seems pretty
cool.
You know, there's also this kind of important...
Like, yeah. As you say, there's almost like
people wrap their identities up in their fandom
or their
you know, their particular sports team, and
there's in the past, there have been
nations where games kind of stood in for
wars. Like,
in Me America,
there was a ball game that people would
play that, like, leaders would play instead of
settling a territorial dispute with, like,
violence, they would play this
ball game and
settle disputes that way. And even, like, emerging
leaders would kind of, you know,
validate their existence through
through winning the game. So
it was a really important kind of form
of
conflict
resolution. And that's a, like, a general thing
about games is there
they're ultimately,
in many ways like, a social
science. Like, you're learning
about your opponent. If you're in the game,
you're learning about your opponent's mindset And if
you're the game, you're still seeing how these
people's minds work. You're... Or, you know, their
bodies, like seeing us an athlete being so
brilliant with, like, the way they pass a
ball or
like, you know, Lebron James has, a... What,
like a photographic memory of, like every play
he's ever been in.
So these people have these incredible
mental and and bodily abilities that it's really
beautiful to kind of experience from from the
sideline.
And so it's ultimately... Oh, it's a window
into until people's minds, like, games are...
A a way we kind of
see how how people think. And that's kind
of the intuition but behind Ai and why
Ai has been trained on so many games
is that
we think of it as being this
this
marker of intelligence. And I don't think that's
always true. I mean, there are plenty of
people who are really good at chess and
not necessarily good at other things,
but
it is... It can be a really profoundly
beautiful thing and aesthetic thing to see someone
play beautifully.
I mean, pick your sport.
Right?
Great.
Watching Serena Williams play tennis
is an extraordinary thing.
I mean, the technical ability,
the athletic,
the... And and I say this in the...
In in the most laboratory way, She's a
beast.
Right? She's ferocious,
and it's and it's it's and she's poetry
in emotion. And and that's true for many,
many
athletes in many different sports, some more than
others. Not I'm not sure the average golfer
his poetry and motion. But... Yeah.
It also seems that the sort of
identity with team,
if you will.
I... Let me let me throw a a
crazy crazy
hypothesis.
In the early nineties late eighties, I believe
roughly if Chad Gp is telling me the
right things.
Roughly 90 ish percent of Americans
identified as some kind of a Christian.
And today, that's roughly 60, maybe 65 percent.
Again, you know,
check it out and but it's sort of
in that range. There's been a meaningful drop
off. Mh. And at the same time,
The popularity
of the Nfl has absolutely exploded. The value
of every Nfl team has gone up exponentially.
And the other thing politically that's happened in
our country. Well, we always,
have been and probably always will be a
country that argues used with itself about a
lot of things.
Hopefully, in the pursuit of a more perfect
union.
Yeah.
But the tribalism
or team is, if you will, in politics
today feels very different. You know,
I haven't been lying for the entire time
the country has been around, but certainly in
my lifetime, the The... Everything my team does
is awesome and every team, their team their
team does is stupid,
feels more prevalent today. Yeah. Does any of
this make sense to you that sort of
through a game lens and a self
identification lens. That that is to say I
identify myself with this game and with this
team.
Does it is this a dot I should
be connecting or have Gone completely and saint
Kelly?
Well, I'm I'm not an expert on any
of these matters. And I...
I'm sure there's, like, lots of reasons. All
of these changes have happened in America and
across
across the world.
And, I mean, I do think there's something
important there in this kind of, like,
how do I identify and maybe making politics
more of our personalities than we used to
or something, and then and then
issues with politics become personal intact rather than,
like,
Oh, you have
a different belief about taxes in the e
versus, like, now there's a a much more
kind of... It's a game for supremacy.
Right. Yeah. There's a kind of idea.
Yeah. You know, The other side is trying
to destroy America.
Well, if both sides are right, Everybody's trying
to destroy America. Like, it's it's so crazy.
Right? I the criteria for the next election
for me is not crazy.
Yeah. And it's hard to buy, not crazy.
Yeah.
And and so I guess my point is
if there's a connection between
identity and games,
and everything has become game. I've spent my
entire career in the the tech industry, and
we've been talking about gamification for
Yeah. More than 20 years. And so,
I understand some of those things at some
level. It just seems that identity with team
and or game
increasing,
decreasing values
from religion. You can say that's good better
and different,
and then stronger
identification with
my team in politics,
my team in in sports.
Yeah. So there's also something interesting
with games about... As you say, like, this
identification, Like, if you play a video game,
there's something really intimate about the experience where
it can it can kind of change your
views on things or, like, when you talk...
When you read a novel, you talk about
the character, like, the main character, the protagonist
and you say, like, their name, like, Lars
did this thing, Blah blah blah. But if
you're playing a video game, you know, you're
playing
link or whatever, but you say I did
this. Like, I did this thing,
you know, you you talk about it from
in the first person versus the third person.
And there's something really
amazing about that. Like, that experiential
process of
being involved in a game.
And there there are studies that indicate that
people...
The games are really powerful kind of rhetoric
device where people can play a game and,
like, change our opinions about, for example, like,
a military
like a military offense based on the game.
Even... It's so it's actually, like, a really
powerful prop propaganda engine.
And then if you think of, like, social
media as these these ga aside things where
you're finding
allegiance with other people on it. You're getting
rewarded with likes and friendships and,
people thinking you're smart for proving that their
earth is flat or whatever.
It's a really game unified environment. And
there's a great quote from Kurt Bon,
something like
the reason that Americans have no natural immunity
C ideas is that ideas have become
badges of of friendship and en.
That we don't hold ideas because they're true,
we hold ideas because our friends hold them
or they give us some kind of social
inclusion.
And so thinking... So, yeah, we're not being
rewarded in, like, points. We're being rewarded with,
you know, the social inclusion or
feeling moral superiority or whatever it is.
So I think there's... I think there's something
to that. Yeah. Fascinating.
I must be an insane person because all
of my work is despise by the status
quo in the mainstream.
It must be a sadistic pastor. But
that's neither ear nor there.
As you were speaking, I was reminded of
something my my buddy Nicholas cole and long
long time writing partner and category pirates,
is known to say, which was he... So
he... He is 1 of the most red
digital writers in the world. Like,
I don't even know. Right? He wrote on
core for years, and he's written and he's
written everywhere. And a whole bunch of books
and a handful of books with me and
Eddie Yu. Anyway,
he grew up,
playing video games.
He's in his early thirties.
Oh, shit. I meant to look at it
before I got on our session here.
Do you know the average amount of time
the, an American,
20 to 30 year old spends playing video
games?
I don't. Shit. 8 hours in my head,
a week? Oh, wow. But like quick. Yeah.
Maybe if you could look it up, it's
a stunning amount it. Like, it's like, a
full time job for man under 18, and
it's like a part time job for men
18. Well,
anyway, he grew up playing video games.
And when he started writing on the internet,
writing viral
content on the Internet was a video game
for him.
Oh, cool. And that's part of his success.
Interesting. Is
just like he understood the algorithms
of a game
and the, quote, the skills
that you need to,
optimize your outcome around whatever the construct of
the game is,
it's exactly the same thing on Twitter. It's
exactly the same thing on Linkedin on filling
in your blank. Once you understand the game,
which few people do, but it's... For him,
it's intuitively easy to figure out.
Bam.
Yeah.
And so III thought that was so interesting
to think about in his case, growing audience
on the internet is all just a big
game.
And your lens is telling me really everything
is just a big game.
Yeah. I think that's
that's actually
a big
something that people are working on more is
kind of game of flying making apps that
people can kind of ga their life. Like,
oh, you get badges for
remembering to wash your clothes or, you know,
Seinfeld had a very simple system for writing
where he would just, like, have a calendar
and make a big red mark every day
that he wrote to, like,
remind himself that... To keep that kind of,
you know,
streak going.
So having ways of rewarding yourself... Like, visually,
like, oh, wow. I just wrote for, like,
every day for a month straight. That's great.
So I think that's a really powerful way
that people are trying to
cod,
and that's amazing that that works for him.
I
I haven't really tried it to to be
honest with my own work. I mean,
I feel satisfaction in, like, getting things done,
but I think that would be
a nice thing to kind of, like,
to really turn it to a game because
then I I know a lot of, like,
day traders do this, like, financial people do
this where they wanna rise to the top
of the leader board.
Get the biggest bonuses whatever. So I I
do think people
do this. I'm I looked up the
average time that people spend on video games
18 to 29 years is 6 to 10
hours per week, but 8 percent of people
played video games more than 20 hours a
week on average.
So... 8. Yeah. But on average, it's 6
8 hours.
6 to 6 to 10 per week. 6...
So the average
person or male.
Oh, sorry. This was person. Let's see. The
average person.
Yeah. 20 to 30 in America place 6
to 10 hours a week? Let's see. If...
So the average is 6 to 10, but
8 percent
play 20 or more.
Let's see. I It's also... I'm not sure
if any of this can be trusted. This
is just, like random Quick Google search. I'm
getting lots of pop ups. Yeah. It seems
like averages is probably
hire for men, like, maybe
50 ish percent higher for men, so
maybe...
12 hours a week. For 12 hours. Yeah.
So at a... The... A man in America,
who who's between 20 and 30 years of
age,
is likely to be playing 12 hours a
week of a video game. Yeah. Now,
I think when most people hear that,
and even maybe the way I just said
it,
there's a judgment attached to it.
Right. You have a very different lens.
Kelly. So when you hear that,
what goes on in that neurology brain of
yours?
Yeah.
I mean, I think in many ways, games
are probably healthier than Tv because you're
being active
in thinking and engaging and practicing your fast
twitch muscles and it's it's just more an
involved
state of mind. Tv is very passive and
kind of
almost h.
So there's something I think
powerful about games. Of course, there is problematic
gaming where people
play more than they want to impacts their
life impacts their relationships,
and that's
I think like, 1 percent of people globally,
1 to 3 percent of people have, like,
really addictive game habits.
But I think for for a lot of
people, it's it's really a a healthy
diversion. And it's also ultimately,
I see it as a form of learning.
Like, we are interested in games because
we're learning how to. We we're improving our
skills. We are
exploring new worlds. We are satisfying these little
mental pitches. Like,
you can think of games as being these...
They're kind, like, an inverse of the mind.
They're, like, things that the mind likes to
do. I mean, ultimately the mind, the brain
invented games to fa itself. And we've just
kind of evolved more and more
incredible,
fascinating games to to do that.
So... And I mean, things like the fact
that Chess has been around for thousands of
years is really testament to that that, like,
we have liked it for ages, and it's
still fresh for a lot of people, and
It seems it seems incredibly popular now. And
I think the digital technology has made it
even more pop popular,
we had Gary Ka on.
Yeah. And... Oh cool. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, 1
of the most fascinating people in the world,
really. I bet. Yeah. He's right. I could've
spent 12 hours with him no problem. Probably
12 weeks. Yeah.
But
you know, to hear him say,
without hesitation and
complete clarity
that he can't beat the chess game on
his iphone if it set at the highest
setting, like not even close.
Right.
Like a hundred times out of a hundred,
it probably beats them.
And he just says it.
Right.
That's a fascinating thing. And
and you could interpret that as, well, fuck,
that's really defeating.
But yet, Chess is super popular.
And so I find that incredibly fascinating.
Right.
And people are using these kind of online
chess
games as coaches. Like, people are becoming
better at Chess. We're, like, discovering new things
about chess through these Ai programs that are
showing us new ways of playing and new
strategies and
so, yeah, I think there's something really great.
Although, you know, there's also,
the
go master Lease at all, quit go because
he said there's an entity that
is un beat. So why do I... Why
would A thing? Right.
I'm sorry. How'd to do it. Had to
do it.
I I have the bind of an 8
year old boy.
Who drinks alcohol.
And so if I came to you, if
I was an entrepreneur, and I came to
you. And I said,
here's what we're trying to do. We have
a a big idea to solve a really
big problem.
A problem that most people don't see yet,
but we think they're gonna really understand when
we explain it to them.
And
what we're trying to do is create a
new market category
with a breakthrough product to solve a a
big problem.
But 1 that 1 that requires,
a different way of thinking about something. So
we're gonna... We're challenging the status quo with
some kind of a breakthrough.
Both from a product perspective as well as
this is a new market category of of
product.
So if I was somebody wanting to do
that kind of thing,
what advice would you give me through through
your lens? Yeah.
This is a cool question. And I think
1
insight that I have is
a lot of
the
tech vision we think of, like, the Sun
pic chai or
Elon Musk. They...
Their earliest coding experiences were in building games.
Mark Ben,
like, would actually sell games Atari.
So I think it's a really cool way
of getting into systems thinking. Like, designing games
is a way of
figuring out how you can
get your players to behave in the way
you want. And this is something that board
game
designer, Reiner K talks about. He says, like,
when I'm starting a game, I have it...
Like, I have
the idea in my mind how I want
it to work. And the first thing I
do is
develop the scoring system because the way that
people get rewarded is how you will get
them to behave and the way you want
the the game to work.
And I think this is, like, great advice
for anything because you can look at...
The example I come to is, for example,
I was at Google and there's a famous
thing called the Google Graveyard.
Where Google will, like, push out all these
new products that they are all excited about.
And then a couple months later, they go
into the graveyard. Like, they're just forgotten. Like
Google Plus and, you know, there's all kinds
of
little services they started up and then they
went nowhere. And the reason,
you know, internally in the company, the reason
you see that happening is because
Google get
promoted for starting projects,
and they do not get promoted for maintaining
projects.
So
you can see the... Oh You know, Talia...
Yeah. I know. It really is. And this
is so true of so many companies where
it's, like,
you know, chase chase Chase Johnny, Chase, Shiny
things, and just keep exactly. Right. Yeah. And
then so people were actually getting a baby.
D. This is a Zebra chasing down rabbit
hole,
super playground.
Right.
So, yeah. So you can think about how
you incentivize people
by rewarding them with promotions or whatever it
is.
And
and Think, I mean, this is a hard
thing to do. Obviously, like, there's a lot
of smart people at Google
And... But, of course, like, a corporation doesn't
have a brain. Like, there's no, like, frontal
cortex for an organization. Like, they're... It's very
hard to get feedback or, like, to really
figure out how to change an institutional structure.
So probably, like, the sooner you incorporate those
things into your business, the better off you
are.
Fantastic.
Along the same lines,
I have
let me say, a lucky amount of wonderful
younger people in my life.
And this is an area of interest for
many of them for all the obvious reasons.
And so if I was a younger person
and coming to you, and I wanted to
get into game design or some other
creative
entrepreneurial, innovative endeavor, but really
focused
mostly on game design.
I want it to be central to my
life. Mh. What would you advise me to
start working on thinking about reading, doing, etcetera?
Yeah.
There's like, a couple of
canonical game design books.
That I think 1 could start with. The
the issue is there's not a ton of,
like, formal education on this stuff, like,
there are some universities that offer game design
accreditation, I guess, but I don't think they're...
I think it's hard. I think ultimately,
the thing to do is just start designing
games, like, start playing around
because a,
it doesn't take a lot. Like, if you're
designing a board game, you need, like, some
cardboard.
If you're designing a computer game, there's increasingly
these like, amazing tools that make it much
easier
to design your own game. I think like
roadblocks is basically this, like, sandbox where you
can make all kinds of interesting things.
So the
the fruits are kind of low hanging in
that sense where
you can do a lot of cool stuff
with the tools, the tools that exist.
So I I think reading some of the,
some of the writings of one's favorite game
designers,
figuring out what it is about the games
that you like
like, really pick that apart. And I mean,
that's the same for writing. Right? Like, we
read writers we love. We figure out, like,
what is it that's so beautiful about the
way they write. And then we can try
to incorporate or at least like,
feel inspired by it in our own writing.
And so staying with game design. Like, what
are the games that really compel you. And
that also, I think tells you a lot
about yourself like,
if you're really into tetris, maybe
you have, like, organizational
pull.
I mean, it tells it tells you about
people in general. Like, it's really cool that
I some... That's something I see in so
many games where there's this, like, a mechanic
where it doesn't seem to be spoken. Like,
oh, there's some kind of like, black ooze
you need to clean up or There's some
corruption happening in the world. You need to
fix it. There's this very primal
desire to, like, purify and cleanse. So there's
these interesting... Yeah. Sort of universal human
instincts
that I think games are speaking to, these,
like, mental habits that we we want to,
like,
Express. You just taught me something Killing.
Really. So my favorite sport to play as
a boy was baseball.
Okay. Even though I grew up in Montreal,
Canada and obviously, hockey.
Anyway,
what you you just taught me why? I
love baseball so much.
Because it's a team sport. I wanna be
on a team. I'm not a solo performer.
And
From time to time, I like to stand
in the batter box and be the person
taking care of business.
Oh, yeah. For the team. Yeah. And I
never thought of that until right now, you
just talk... You just taught me.
Amazing
That's great. Yeah. So finding out... Yeah. I
think Games really teach us a lot about
what what makes us tick. And then what
makes humans tick in general and then
you know, you can... I think the way
that
the the way that innovation happens in gaming
is
what's really happening is the designers are discovering
some new
itch to scratch for the human brain. Like,
in the past, like 10 years, there's been
and a lot of games I've seen this,
like, fishing mini game where
you can kind of, like,
fish in all these different games and get
the, like, collect these different fish and do
different things with them. And that's really speaking
this kind of, like, primal hunting forage gathering
thing. So so I think finding those little...
New to scratch is how we
make more exciting new games for ourselves.
Kelly?
Mh. That was fucking genius what you just
said?
No really?
I'm glad. Because you think about... So I
think about it through the category design lens.
How do you
design a market
just in the same way you design a
product or a company or a business model
or or a game.
Turns out you can design markets.
They don't just happen like the weather.
Before Open
Created the
product chat Gp in a category of generative
Ai,
the sum total demand for generative Ai was
0.
And there are rumors out there that say
they're on a 4000000000
dollar run rate, and we know for a
fact that they're the fastest growing start up
in history.
So
so what's my point?
New itch to scratch for the brain.
Tiktok, incredible example. Right? Right. Who knew that
was it? It's the brain needed scratched?
Right.
Almost impossible to see for most of us.
Radically non obvious. And, of course, like all
things that were radically non obvious to become
smash hit new mega categories.
Today, radically.
Right.
Okay. So let me ask you this question.
I've been really
hoping to get to as well.
So
If you say any structure that human beings
agree to
with a set of rules and governance,
and clear
carrots and sticks rewards and
wax,
then a country is that.
Yes?
Yeah. So America is a game.
Yeah. France is a game, Saudi Arabia is
a game.
Yeah. North Korea is a game.
Right. So if you look at it that
way,
and you say okay.
We hear all this stuff about all this...
All the problems in America and yada yada
yada,
and
we need to get after all of it.
Does a long list.
Right? We know the list,
and most good people agree. They may not
agree on solutions, but they agree what the
problems are.
So
now,
Let's say that's gonna happen and we all
wanna be good people and we wanna
improve America for everyone. And at the same
time,
That kind of progress
at scale generally takes a lot of time.
So if I say, okay. Wait a minute.
If On 1 hand, I wanna be a
person who contributes to improving
our country in our world,
but the same time the world in the
country,
is the game that it is right now.
So what if I just accept the game
as it is now?
Figure out how to win in this game.
So that as I'm doing that, I can
try to make the game that I'm figuring
out and winning, may a little fair, a
little more just a little more whatever,
and we need a lot of little more,
and we need a lot a lot a
lot of more on stuff. Right?
Yeah. But I'm... Essentially, I'm gonna master the
game
to get to change the game.
Yeah.
As opposed to just bitch about the game.
So I think there's a danger here for
any democracy
if
1 player within it can change the rules.
Well,
this is how you get a desperate. Right?
Like, this is... This is dangerous.
There was a great
classic
psychologist, Jean P who would study how kids
played games
and how they kind of would
first, they would accept the rules that the
kind of adults
profess they were. And then over time, they
kind of renegotiate and talk to each other
and work out how the... How they want
the rules to be after they played the
game and kind of
thought about how things could be better.
So it was like, this collective decision. And
Pj thought of this is this perfect model
of how democracy should really work where we're
all playing a game together, and then we
agree
on that, like, we shouldn't take the rules
as
handed down by God, but, like, that there's
something
by agreement we can change.
And so... And we're gonna do it with
civil dialogue and discourse,
not civil war.
Right. Right. We're gonna argue that We're gonna
yell. But that's as far as we're going,
and then we're vote. I.
Right. I certainly hope because that's a big
part of the agreement. Right. Like a very
big part of the agreement. Yeah. And that,
like, there isn't, like, 1 really big kid
who bullies the other kids to make them
accept the rules that they want. Like, that
it has to be this
collectively agreed upon thing. And so, ideally, you
know, this is something that we all
see is a game because I think that's
another problem is that
when there's this notion that
that, for example, the constitution is, like,
so sacred, and we cannot change a word
of it. Like, there were amendments for reason...
For reason right? Like it's it should be
a little
their car.
Amendments.
You know, Yes this is a side note.
When you're teaching people category design,
we talk a lot about the strategic use
of language.
Right? Because a d point
language creates a d point in thinking,
which often creates a d point action.
And so
lang really matters. And so the funny thing
is we sort of had this a aha
which is,
people don't pay attention to the words.
So we say,
listen to the words.
Listen to the fucking words.
The amendments.
There's the constitution,
and it has amendments.
What's an amendment
Exactly.
So, yeah, If we had if we had
this kind of notion that
our society was something we could kinda play
with. And this is why it's so sad
that we've lost this playful of, like, carnival
or
you know, debt J or just like these
idea... These moments of
of wiping the slate clean, like, starting new,
trying something else
doing what we can to to make it
work for everyone.
It's really unfortunate that we're... We lost that
playful.
Yeah. It's interesting is you're talking, I'm thinking,
what when do we as a country come
together.
And we do do some playful things, you
know,
fourth of July is generally a playful thing.
You could argue depending on the family in
at the holidays. He's
in November December it's a playful. Thank me,
But,
even in a country like America that likes
to celebrate, I moved here from Canada, and
I was like, wow.
These fucking people love this country, and they
like to celebrate all the time and wave
flags. It was very overly celebratory. If you
asked the brits and stuff they'll yeah, they're
pretty much the same.
But interestingly enough, Yeah. There aren't those touchstone
touchdown. The other 1 that comes to mind,
of course, is the super bowl.
Yeah. That might be. I don't know. Is
that the biggest 1?
That's that's a big 1. I mean,
there's, like, more niche ones so, like, as
you mentioned, Bernie man, where that's... Their kind
people are trying to imagine what would be
like, if
in a post scarcity world. Of course, it's
it's very artificial and maybe that's part of
being, you know, what makes it a game,
I guess.
But, yeah.
So if I was somebody who said, hey,
look. Yes. There's a lot of changes I
wanna make to the game.
But I'm gonna invest more of myself
in winning the game
to, if you will, more powerfully be able
to change the game
as opposed to sitting here on the sidelines
throwing rocks and
being in a grumpy old man screaming and
get off my lemon.
So if I was gonna view, let's just
call it success in America by whatever
definition you have of success.
I was gonna view that as a game.
How might I think differently about if you
will, my life design?
I guess the the hard thing about that
is
you kind of implicitly have to take on
the values of success, like, what leads to
success in America
in order to get there. Like,
and I think a lot of people take
on
that notion and then kind of forget where
they came from. Like, a lot of people
maybe
we'll,
like, claw their weights to the top and
then, like, close or, like, pull up the
ladder behind them. Because it's it's hard to
not
think in this kind of biased way, if
you
made it to the top of America
that
anyone could do it because that's
clearly not true because if, you know, if
everyone could do it, they would do it
Right? Like, it's it's not
it's it's a
small piece of the pie. Like, there's... There's
just no way that
everyone can
be the top 1 percent.
So I think
the
kind of advice or the the thinking I
would have is is it's a very noble
idea to that, like, you could
change the rules once you got to the
top, but getting to the top will change
you. Right? Like... So finding ways of
like, I think this is a... Something in
any game is that we can start to
kind of
implicitly
accept the values of the game maker Like,
when we play Monopoly,
we
have to act like a ruthless capitalist
to to win.
Even if we're, like, a peaceful hippie. So
we, like,
stab our sisters in the back, we we
burn bridges with with parents. Like, it's just...
It can be really
brutal or like a game like Mafia where
you're like, lying to your friends. Like, I've
seen people cry and get really upset at
games like this. So these games kind of
you know, within their con, we are abandoning
our own values to take on the the
values of the game.
But when it's a life game, Like, when
you're playing the game of life, you have
to be really careful to
find where your values really lie.
And whether it's worth abandoning them to win
this game
because because the game can be brutal.
Okay. Awesome.
So I agree.
And
I would push
the premise.
Mh.
It's possible to win in American life.
And not sell yourself out to a set
of beliefs. And I think we have many
examples in many domains.
From incredible,
community leaders,
religious leaders,
entrepreneurs,
business leaders,
people who have committed to be
servants of our country,
in the military,
etcetera and serving government,
And so I think
being successful
and being a sort of moral sellout,
is a false premise.
That's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. I totally
agree with that. Yeah. And look, you know,
it's funny how... It's it's weird in America,
that
winning is is despise now.
You know. So if you look at... Let's
just look at 2 billionaires everybody. Like to
shit on Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk.
Mh. And, look, I'm not here to defend
everything they've done. I don't monitor what these
guys do. I don't really give a shit
that much. It's What I will tell you
is to the best of my knowledge over
Covid,
Amazon hired over half a million people. Might
have even scratched up to a million. It
was a giant number of people. And I
know people who know Jeff,
and I know for a fact from people
who know him. So... But close close second
hand.
That when Covid hit that, guy I said,
all our business plans are out the window.
Let's figure out exactly what people need,
and it's battle stations, everything's Covid.
Mh. And if we had to have gone
through Covid
without
that,
Yeah. Where the fuck would we have been.
Right? Now, Musk
is he nuts as he behave like a
this or that...
Sure.
But sort of what do you expect the
guy who's flying to space and brewing under
the earth and driverless cars and neural link
things to the fucking satellites and the inter...
Like, what do you expect this guy to
be? Like, a button down blue shirt wearing
khaki pants wearing the Mckinsey consultant
Of course, he's gonna be a wild man.
So
I I just... I think it's interesting that,
there's so much hate put there. And look,
we can have all the conversations around wealth
distribution and value creation. And I think those
are all good conversations. But the reality is
we have some extraordinary
entrepreneurial leaders in our country. And
I think we owe a debt grad gratitude
and, yes,
radical oversight and radical challenge and absolute power
cr absolutely, and we need to be all
over them, and we need regulation on Ai
and end in. As you well know, Kelly.
Multiple things can be true at the same
time. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. So
let's talk maybe a little bit about
family.
So if everything's a game,
then a family
construct is a game. Right? And every family
is slightly different than what it values and
how it operates and who the leaders are
and who the supporters are and
etcetera, and there's always there's always a moron
and there's always at least 1 if not
evil villain, there's always 1
sort of bad apple if not full on,
apple etcetera, etcetera. And so... Great.
How does
designing a family and living in a family
look through a cat... I through the lens
of
games.
That's interesting. There's is... I think a book
from the fifties that A psychologist wrote where...
He... I think it's called, like the games
we play or something. It's about all of
these
kind of
categories of games in relationships where... Yeah. There's
always, like, it's almost like theatrical tropes that
people fall into. And, you know, all these
things are
ultimately
about as good as horoscope as, like, really
describing people. Right? Like, there's
there's no real categories that people could fall
into.
Ultimately, I would say,
game only goes so far. So, like,
you could probably find ways of game,
like chores or, like, having fun, like, bringing
as much play as possible into
a family dynamic. And I think there's something
really important here to distinguish about
kind of generative creative play where there's, you
know, people are
trying new things out
trying to break a dynamic that has been
fixed,
and, like, is stuck, and maybe, like, like,
as you say, like, people feel like they've
been
pigeon hold into these particular roles? Like, how
do we let people get out of that
because nobody is the more on nobody is
the
blank in a relationship rate. It's it's... We
do fall into these sometimes these,
I don't know the right word, but like
tropes.
So
the important distinction between this, like, generative play
and
rule bound games where
you know, where
maybe not
meeting the world as it is, where we're,
like, more focused on winning or whatever.
So
I think with children, probably the most important
thing is this idea of, like, generative play
and
gentleness and connection and and seeing games as
as a form of connection. Like, That's ultimately
even with a game like a competitive game
like chess, you're ultimately like trying to have
a good time with the other player. Like,
you're you're here cooperating.
So
things interrupt you, but 1 of the craziest
things about Martial Arts. U.
Were you and I to spa?
Yeah.
At the end of the spa session, the
likelihood
that we would be
overwhelmed in in almost
uncontrollable way to hug each other, is very
high. That's amazing. And it's the weirdest thing.
Now, of course, spa, you're not really trying
to hurt each other. But if you watch
a if you're a fight fan at all.
It happens at the end of many.
Many
fights, and many fighters go on to become
extraordinary friends. The story happens over and over
and over again. Wow. And so
even that
where you're literally trying to knock the other
person on unconscious.
And probably said horrible things about their mother
and sister before the fight.
That happens.
That's beautiful. That's amazing. And that's exactly what
you know, wrestling in animals. It's like it's
a kind of form of social bonding.
It sure is with me and bean dog
or cat who identifies as a dog.
Now, I did wanna touch on at least
1 more thing, which is sometimes
our when we hear the word game and
we think about game,
it
sits in a different light,
like a manipulation light.
Like I'm rigging the game or I'm... Yes.
I'm... I've got my thumb on the scale
or I'm I'm I'm trapping you, and I'm
I'm red pill you or blue pill. I
don't know which 1 it is, all those
idiots talk about. But that a game sorta
equals some kind of a rigged
manipulative system to somebody's advantage to the disadvantage
of of many
versus the other lens, which is game
as play.
And there are some games that are just
meant to be playful,
celeste handling the the reporter,
shared with me a an interesting thing. She's...
She compared a conversation
to a game of catch at the beach.
And the purpose of a game of catch
at the beach or Frisbee at the beach
is if you and I are playing Frisbee,
my objective is for you to catch the
frisbee.
I'm I'm trying to throw it to you.
Yeah. And vice versa amount, maybe I'm trying
to do it in a funny way or
this or that or the other. But, you
know, or if I toss you a ball
or playing catch with baseball. I want you
to catch the ball.
So that there's game is play,
and there's game
manipulation.
How might I think about those things? And
particularly when I look at the world or
games or any kind of a system, be
it a political system business,
etcetera.
Yeah.
So,
yeah, there's... Certainly all of these ideas of
gaming the system. And and it's... In many
ways, we're kind of incentivized. So, like, so
for example, those Google who are
starting new products. Like, they're just doing their
job. Like, they're not trying to create products
that are gonna fail, like, eventually, they're trying
to make
of get a promotion and do good work
and whatever. So it's it's not like they're
they're they're working within the incentives. Don't but
don't blame the player, blame the game.
Right. Well, and in many ways, yes. And
I think seeing games as, like, yes, they
can be rigged, but also, ultimately, they're... They
should be rule based. Right? Like, and that's
something that's really important is that, like, we
all
believe that
the game should be fair. Like, this is
a pretty kind of p
belief. That there's this sense of fairness
that we should all be behold into the
rules in the same way. There should be,
like
a dual system for, like, this person who
follows the roles or this person who follows
the rules.
And so there's this kind of intuitive sense
of there should be fairness. And so we
can
figure out, like, we can use mathematical tools
or look at the rules in the system
and see, are they unfairly benefiting somebody over
another, and hopefully,
you know, change that. Like, a game ultimately,
you know, game design is being used for
like, designing new voting systems and designing, like,
economic markets and all all kinds of important
things.
And
the issue is the this can be great
because we can use them to design, like,
rational markets that makes sense, but they don't
make it so that we don't need, like,
regulations and judges and, like, people acting morally.
Like, we can't... There's no way of making
a game
that is like, impossible to be cheated at.
Like, it's... There's always gonna be cheater. There's
always gonna be somebody with, like, their thumb
on the scale
But if we kind of know the rules
and collectively agree on the rules,
that is a kind of transparent way of...
Yes.
Everyone getting to examine how what the outcome
of the game is and who's being unfairly
benefited, You know?
Yeah.
Well, let me see... I'm gonna say this
like it is, but, I mean, it like
a question.
Our faith in humanity is restored
when even somebody who is incredibly celebrated and
loved
is exposed as a cheater, you know, Lance
armstrong by way of example. Oh, yeah.
Right? I mean, I don't know there was
a more beloved person in America.
He was certainly way up there.
You know, and as a cancer survive, ver
and the whole thing. I... We we all
loved him. And then,
and
he doesn't come back from that,
Right.
Never.
Yeah. Ever.
Yeah.
It's fascinating
that that
the
pe
is so severe
and yet it is so s still.
Right. Yeah. Absolutely. It's kind of
it's
it's funny Like, I think in ancient ruins.
So, like, as old as, like, as far
back as we find dice, we also find
way to dice. It's just kind of part
of
Are you shitting?
Yeah.
That's crazy.
Yeah.
You know, the other thing I think of,
been lucky enough to get to know Jim
Campbell a little bit.
He was the guy who wrote made off
talks, which is sort of the definitive made
off book, and He's a fascinating guy.
And 1 of the things he makes really
clear in his work about made that is
so
like, it takes...
I think him as a character or up
to a another level of fascination is made
of ran 2 businesses.
1 that was a hundred percent clean.
And 1 that was a hundred percent dirty,
and they were not... I mean, they were
connected but not.
Right? That is to say there were many
and they were on different floors,
and so I forget the floor numbers or
whatever. But if you were on the floor
with the legit business.
The likelihood you didn't know there was an
a an business on the floor above or
below you was actually high. It was clean
as a whistle.
Boy. And so it's just this fascinating thing
that you could have,
you know, that
that 2 views of life and the game
in the same person.
Yeah.
And also the other thing you made me
think of is, I think you also just
explained a lot about Crypto.
Because
who are
many of the biggest champions of Crypto,
typically younger men who grew up playing video
games
and they view Crypto as a video game.
Oh, yeah. Right? That's not a stretch.
Yeah. I mean, I think...
Bitcoin kind of, like,
has a lot of people look at it
and they're like, well, why does it have
any value? And then
the crypto people are, like, well, why does
money have value? It's all a collective solution
anyway. So why not, like, have 1 that's
kind of has some kind of proof of
work or some something that's time our own
illusion.
Right. Exactly. And the the illusion they make
is they only made so many, and they're
never making anymore. Right? So long if I
don't break that promise.
Yeah.
Our government, of course, makes
billions with looking all the time without consulting
us.
Right. But that's a whole other game.
Yeah.
Well, Kelly, clearly, I could speak with you
about this for a long time. I really
appreciate your work.
Is there anything else you'd like to touch
on?
No. That was that was super great questions.
It's really fascinating in. Thank you so much.
Well, thank you. And thank you for your
new book, and
you're welcome back anytime.
Thanks so much. Thanks. Take care.
That was the legendary Kelly Clan. Make sure
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