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Thanks for pressing play. If you love the

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Ser magic that can only occur in a

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real conversation, you're in the right place. This

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is Christopher Lock follow you're different. The number

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1 real dialogue

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Cast for business leaders, entrepreneurs and category designers

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with a different mind.

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Today's guest is the legendary Kelly Clan. A

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neuroscientist with a profound understanding of the intricate

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connections between games and human behavior.

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Kelly brings a unique perspective, exploring the dual

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nature of games as both trivial past times

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and profound cognitive exercises.

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Her insights into how games have been inspired

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thinkers throughout history and continue to shape our

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understanding of intelligence and social structures are truly

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enlighten.

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In her new book, Kelly delve into the

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compelling nature of games, their impact on our

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minds and their role in society.

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She makes a strong case for their acceptance

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as an art form and a vital component

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of human cognition. In this episode, Kelly and

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Christopher discussed the deep seated significance of games

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in our lives.

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From ancient times to the modern era of

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video games and Ai.

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They explore how games serve as mental scaffolding

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for understanding complex social systems and how they

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can be seen as a micro of societal

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rules and structures.

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Kelly's research illuminate the universal of play across

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species. The transformative power of games and their

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potential as tools for learning and social bonding.

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Whether you're a gamer, a thinker or someone

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curious about the broader implications of play, Kelly's

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insights offer a fresh and thought provoking lens

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on the world of games and their profound

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impact on our lives.

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Are you fed up with blending into crowded

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markets, then it's time to join the category

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pirates and carve out your own uncharted territory?

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The category pirates newsletter is your treasure map

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for mastering category design. Learn from the elite,

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the pioneers of category design on how to

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frame name and claim your very own niche.

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H your sales and navigate towards untapped potential.

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Subscribe to the category pirates newsletter at category

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pirates dot com. And to join the crew

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redefining market categories.

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Don't settle for being just another competitor. Become

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a true category designer in une earth the

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hidden treasures waiting for you. Set sail with

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the category pirates today at category pirates dot

55
00:02:17,205 --> 00:02:19,745
com. Now as Joey Ra ramon said, hey

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h, let's go.

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Well, Kelly, I've been looking for today for

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quite a while. How are you? I'm good.

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Thanks. How are you? Thanks for having me.

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I'm great. Very happy to see you. Yeah.

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Good to be here. And I gotta tell

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you I I'm a big fan of your

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work. I really appreciate your new book.

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And the world that you... I think you

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live in is a very fascinating 1. Thank

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you. And so maybe let me ask you,

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why do games matter?

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Games have this kind of

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dual image of both being super trivial and

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unimportant while also being this kind of like,

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the ap of of intelligence and

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you know, like, we think of chess masters

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as being brilliant and there's been this kind

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of long history of games,

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inspiring philosophers and scientists and

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mathematicians to think in kind of new ways.

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And so

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the reason I kind of was drawn to

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games

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was

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this

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kind of

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strange duality of of how people talk about

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them, how we think about them. You know,

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there's like, there's been a movement to try

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to get games

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accepted as, like, an art form, which they

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certainly are. But I think there's something even

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deeper than that where they're this form of

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thinking. They're are kind of, like, way that

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our mind works.

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And

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that is

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what was so compelling to me as a

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as a neuroscientist scientist.

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This might be inappropriate, but Gonna say it

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anyway. You're fucking legendary.

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That is great.

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And so

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as I sort of dove into your work,

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my... My mind went in all sorts of

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places.

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So let me take it to the first

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place it went,

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which is

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If a game is mental scaffolding for how

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something's is going to function in some way

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with

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carrots and sticks,

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rewards and consequences.

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That are generally agreed upon by the people

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in the game. Yeah.

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What's the difference between

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monopoly

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and

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the mental scaffolding on on which the United

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States of America is built or

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the thinking behind capitalism or the thinking behind

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socialism

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or any other

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generally agreed upon construct for

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carrots and sticks

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amongst human and beings.

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So I I went right there. Tell me,

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tell me about what you think about that,

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why that's wrong why that's right or how

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you think about it?

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No. Yeah.

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That's a wonderful question. I really agree that

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there there really is not a difference

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particularly

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between

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games and

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the the rules that we use to kind

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of generate society.

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This was something... This is kind of like

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a long standing intuition. Plato believed that

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games were this, like, really important form of

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civic education because children would learn how to

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like, follow rules. And then as adults, they

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would know how to follow laws. And he

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thought this was really important. And also that

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we shouldn't allow Children to change the rules

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of games because then as adults they might

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get the terrible notion that they could change

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laws.

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So

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it

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ultimately is the same,

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like, kind of mental facility that allows us

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to

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embody these games allows us to

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participate in these different social structures. And this

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was also something...

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I love the book, Dawn of everything by

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when grown grab, and they talk a lot

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about,

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it's a it's a kind of history of

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few of humanity.

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And it's not the clean,

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like, you know,

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Russo

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idea of, like, we were these, like, hunter

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gatherers, and then we got agriculture in Blah.

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It's, like, really messy and really complicated and

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completely all over the place. And the beauty

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of it is that they bring up again

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and again and how playful

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human social structures have been

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throughout history. Like, there was often some kind

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of like, carnival season where people would

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try out new

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social structures

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where they would

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you know, and, like, for example, for in

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venice, Carnival, like, they would... People would wear

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masks, be anonymous,

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poor people could hang out with rich people,

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you could be anyone and you could act

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like anything.

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Yeah. Sorry interrupt. Right.

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No. Yeah. So there's a a long kind

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of tradition of humans using played to

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idea on new social structures or, like, try

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new things out and and sometimes, like, really

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genuinely

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come up with

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novel,

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governance.

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It's so fascinating.

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So the way I think about your work

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is

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you're giving me a new lens.

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And

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that's the kind of work.

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I generally appreciate the most. I appreciate all

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kinds of work,

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but

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for me, a new lens is when somebody

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has done some

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serious thinking about thinking. 1 of our favorite

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expressions around here is thinking about thinking is

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the most important kind of thinking.

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And so for you to have the audacity

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to say, sort of why games matter,

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and what do they stand for? And why

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do human beings play them? And why

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what was the bone 1?

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I heard you talking about that's been played

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for how many?

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Oh.

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0, yeah. The, I think

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this kind of knuckle bone Yeah. Knuckle bone

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game that kids in Central Asia Play. They,

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you know, I think they have some evidence

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of it being played for like, 7000 years.

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So, you know, a while. So human beings

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have been playing data.

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And so

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let me ask you this question. How do

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you define... So first of all, sorry let

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me finish the thought. Thinking about thinking is

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the most important kind of thinking.

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And

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as I consume your work, your thinking,

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what becomes clear is you're giving me a

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new lens on games,

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But not really a new lens on games.

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It's a new lens on human beings, and

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it's actually more than just a lens on

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human beings because

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In my studio right here are

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cat who identifies as a dog.

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He's part me tune. So he's very dog

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like his name bean. Oh, nice. And You

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just have to hang around him for a

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few seconds to understand animals love to play

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games too. Yeah. And so there's something not

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just human, but there's something

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about living beings and you'll hopefully educate me

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a little. And so at the point I'm

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saying is that you've given us a game

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a game lens

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that's really a life lens.

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And so I really appreciate that.

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Well, thank you. I'm glad, Yeah. III

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certainly also don't think I'm the first person

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to point this out. There's a great book

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from the forties by

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John H.

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Don't exactly know how to pronounce this name,

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but it's Homo, like, man the player, and

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it's just, like, wonderful. A lot of people

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and humanity's know about it. I didn't know

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about it until I sort of researching this

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book, but it's all about how humans kind

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of inhabit games as, you know, formalities and

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even, like ritual,

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like, religious re rituals are kind of game

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like in there... You know, there's rules and

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there's like, a sacred circle and things in

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the same way that there's, like a play

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circle.

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Where it rules,

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the the game rules like, have to

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end somewhere.

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And yeah, I mean, I think that's also

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just something so

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profound about games is how universal play is.

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It's

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even bumblebee

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appear to play. It's like, all over the

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Animal kingdom.

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Rats play, like, everything...

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Not everything, but a lot of animals play.

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So it seems like a really important lens

277
00:10:26,367 --> 00:10:28,678
for, like, how we engage with the world.

278
00:10:28,917 --> 00:10:30,884
And, you know, evolution doesn't

279
00:10:31,241 --> 00:10:33,462
keep things around if they're not useful. So

280
00:10:33,462 --> 00:10:35,444
the fact that it's been conserved is is

281
00:10:35,444 --> 00:10:36,713
a really profound,

282
00:10:37,585 --> 00:10:38,323
sort of

283
00:10:39,265 --> 00:10:41,485
mark in its favor for being something important.

284
00:10:41,881 --> 00:10:43,466
And it's funny that... Yeah, Again, it's kinda

285
00:10:43,466 --> 00:10:46,264
funny that it's so trivial because it's so

286
00:10:46,652 --> 00:10:49,674
clearly, like, kids don't stop playing, even as

287
00:10:49,674 --> 00:10:51,287
adults like, something that's really

288
00:10:51,661 --> 00:10:53,808
different about humans compared to other animals is

289
00:10:53,808 --> 00:10:55,818
that we keep playing as adults, like it's

290
00:10:55,818 --> 00:10:56,537
called neo.

291
00:10:56,937 --> 00:10:59,734
We exhibit these child like behaviors well into

292
00:10:59,734 --> 00:11:01,731
adulthood, and that's often a sign of a

293
00:11:01,731 --> 00:11:04,083
more intelligent species that they

294
00:11:04,618 --> 00:11:05,118
keep

295
00:11:05,970 --> 00:11:08,538
young in Half the adults in America for

296
00:11:08,754 --> 00:11:09,152
ball now.

297
00:11:11,876 --> 00:11:13,392
A whole new category of game.

298
00:11:14,030 --> 00:11:15,785
That's right. Yeah. People... And that's the other

299
00:11:15,785 --> 00:11:17,222
great thing is that we're always inventing new

300
00:11:17,222 --> 00:11:17,701
games. Like,

301
00:11:18,672 --> 00:11:20,743
even, you know, people are iterating on chess,

302
00:11:20,903 --> 00:11:22,655
like, making new rules for chest chest has

303
00:11:22,655 --> 00:11:25,179
been, you know, changed over the centuries and

304
00:11:25,379 --> 00:11:26,980
will contain to change to keep it fresh

305
00:11:26,980 --> 00:11:29,299
and interesting or, like, then you get things

306
00:11:29,299 --> 00:11:31,639
like sports where people are doing money ball

307
00:11:32,019 --> 00:11:32,519
where

308
00:11:33,468 --> 00:11:35,924
I think sports get really... They're... Are starting

309
00:11:35,924 --> 00:11:38,301
to get really kind of dry because it's

310
00:11:38,301 --> 00:11:39,648
just being optimized to death.

311
00:11:40,697 --> 00:11:42,850
After they've been analyzed. So... Well, and now

312
00:11:42,850 --> 00:11:44,865
we're learning that maybe chemistry

313
00:11:45,242 --> 00:11:46,140
and teamwork

314
00:11:46,916 --> 00:11:49,822
and leadership and things that are more squishy

315
00:11:50,039 --> 00:11:50,778
than algorithms,

316
00:11:51,553 --> 00:11:52,907
and algorithms are very important,

317
00:11:53,704 --> 00:11:55,537
but those matter a lot too. Right?

318
00:11:56,413 --> 00:11:59,135
The the the underdog b to the champ.

319
00:12:02,315 --> 00:12:04,382
And so how would you define Kelly game?

320
00:12:04,938 --> 00:12:06,233
Let's set this sort of

321
00:12:06,544 --> 00:12:08,620
the table for how you would like me

322
00:12:08,620 --> 00:12:11,095
and everyone to think about what is a

323
00:12:11,095 --> 00:12:11,334
game?

324
00:12:12,132 --> 00:12:12,372
Yeah.

325
00:12:13,170 --> 00:12:15,427
So I think a game is

326
00:12:16,298 --> 00:12:18,532
formally kind of like, a system endowed with

327
00:12:18,532 --> 00:12:19,989
a goal that players

328
00:12:20,446 --> 00:12:22,839
involved in it are trying to achieve. And

329
00:12:22,839 --> 00:12:25,152
so... And there are rules restricting how they

330
00:12:25,152 --> 00:12:26,761
can get to that goal. So for example,

331
00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:28,673
like golf, you're trying to get a ball

332
00:12:28,673 --> 00:12:30,209
into a hole, and

333
00:12:30,586 --> 00:12:32,259
you can only do that by hitting the

334
00:12:32,259 --> 00:12:33,693
ball with funny sticks. You can't, like, pick

335
00:12:33,693 --> 00:12:35,207
it up and walk it over and drop

336
00:12:35,207 --> 00:12:36,998
it in. And there's also something

337
00:12:37,774 --> 00:12:38,274
about

338
00:12:38,731 --> 00:12:40,485
uncertainty in games. Like I think that's a

339
00:12:40,485 --> 00:12:40,985
really

340
00:12:41,522 --> 00:12:43,697
essential aspect of games where

341
00:12:44,553 --> 00:12:45,452
there's some

342
00:12:45,924 --> 00:12:48,397
form of not knowing what's gonna happen, and

343
00:12:48,397 --> 00:12:50,710
that could be, for example, with dice where

344
00:12:50,710 --> 00:12:52,167
you don't know what

345
00:12:52,544 --> 00:12:53,820
the next number is gonna be or it

346
00:12:53,820 --> 00:12:55,437
could be with chess where

347
00:12:56,309 --> 00:12:58,709
every move it no move is like, random,

348
00:12:58,949 --> 00:13:01,129
but you don't know exactly what move your

349
00:13:01,190 --> 00:13:03,190
partner, your... You know, your opponent's gonna make.

350
00:13:03,845 --> 00:13:05,205
And then there's, you know, games like Tic

351
00:13:05,205 --> 00:13:08,004
tac toe, where as adults we know how

352
00:13:08,004 --> 00:13:10,165
it will end. But for a kid who

353
00:13:10,165 --> 00:13:12,580
hasn't learned that it almost always ends in

354
00:13:12,580 --> 00:13:14,580
a draw if you play it. Right? They're

355
00:13:14,580 --> 00:13:16,100
still uncertainty in the game. That's why it's

356
00:13:16,100 --> 00:13:18,500
still enjoyable for them is, like, they they

357
00:13:18,500 --> 00:13:20,259
don't know like, they're still learning into in

358
00:13:20,259 --> 00:13:23,066
it. So there's something important about this aspect

359
00:13:23,066 --> 00:13:24,603
of uncertainty and kind of

360
00:13:26,495 --> 00:13:28,966
that, you know, being the crux of a

361
00:13:28,966 --> 00:13:29,206
game,

362
00:13:29,778 --> 00:13:32,324
And I think part of what... And that's

363
00:13:32,324 --> 00:13:33,994
actually a really important part of what makes

364
00:13:33,994 --> 00:13:36,142
games compelling because uncertainty is, like,

365
00:13:36,953 --> 00:13:37,453
really

366
00:13:38,548 --> 00:13:40,404
captivating to brains. It's

367
00:13:41,339 --> 00:13:42,876
basically, our brains are

368
00:13:43,731 --> 00:13:45,860
trying to make predictions about the world

369
00:13:46,218 --> 00:13:48,133
trying to have models of the world.

370
00:13:48,850 --> 00:13:50,467
And if there's something

371
00:13:50,845 --> 00:13:52,280
uncertain in the world, there's something that it

372
00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,455
doesn't doesn't know how to predict or can't

373
00:13:54,753 --> 00:13:55,253
really

374
00:13:56,680 --> 00:13:59,623
anticipate that is fascinating because that means it

375
00:13:59,623 --> 00:14:01,134
doesn't have the model yet. It it needs

376
00:14:01,134 --> 00:14:02,668
to learn more about it. So

377
00:14:02,979 --> 00:14:05,123
it's just, like, important learning signal where it's,

378
00:14:05,202 --> 00:14:06,711
like, a red flag, and it says, like,

379
00:14:07,028 --> 00:14:09,252
here's something to learn. It's interesting. I mean,

380
00:14:09,410 --> 00:14:11,648
I'm a big sports fan is many folks

381
00:14:11,648 --> 00:14:13,472
are, and 1 of the great things about

382
00:14:13,472 --> 00:14:14,742
all kinds of sports is

383
00:14:16,645 --> 00:14:18,549
on every... On any given Sunday,

384
00:14:19,279 --> 00:14:20,555
And then the other 1 I love, I'm

385
00:14:20,555 --> 00:14:23,288
a big, boxing in Martial Arts fan, and

386
00:14:23,426 --> 00:14:25,680
1 of the great expressions in boxing is

387
00:14:26,137 --> 00:14:27,493
everybody's got a Punch chance.

388
00:14:29,582 --> 00:14:29,821
Right?

389
00:14:30,459 --> 00:14:31,974
I'm bigger than you, and I might have

390
00:14:31,974 --> 00:14:34,527
more fight experience than you, but the reality

391
00:14:34,527 --> 00:14:36,919
is if you and I were to engage

392
00:14:36,919 --> 00:14:38,116
for some horrible reason,

393
00:14:39,328 --> 00:14:41,885
who knows? And... Everybody's got a punch chance.

394
00:14:42,124 --> 00:14:44,861
And so it is that uncertainty, that randomness

395
00:14:45,733 --> 00:14:47,875
And then there's another thing too in games,

396
00:14:48,271 --> 00:14:50,912
particularly in sports, but it can certainly be

397
00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:53,529
maybe maybe not quite

398
00:14:53,997 --> 00:14:56,247
articulated as such, but the thrill

399
00:14:56,701 --> 00:14:58,156
in us in a am

400
00:14:59,247 --> 00:15:01,487
in sort of a chess or something along

401
00:15:01,487 --> 00:15:02,756
those lines can be very similar.

402
00:15:03,391 --> 00:15:05,002
It's a shared experience

403
00:15:05,771 --> 00:15:08,628
that the audience, the fan base, the cult,

404
00:15:09,519 --> 00:15:11,298
the the raider nation

405
00:15:12,076 --> 00:15:13,595
is having together.

406
00:15:14,394 --> 00:15:14,873
And so...

407
00:15:15,912 --> 00:15:17,350
Oh, and and 1 other thing before I

408
00:15:17,350 --> 00:15:19,357
ask my question. And, of course, today,

409
00:15:20,391 --> 00:15:22,004
we have huge stadiums

410
00:15:22,457 --> 00:15:23,673
that sell out

411
00:15:24,127 --> 00:15:25,899
where people watch people

412
00:15:26,527 --> 00:15:29,626
play fucking video games. Oh alright. Yeah. And

413
00:15:29,626 --> 00:15:31,374
if you had told me that, I would've

414
00:15:31,374 --> 00:15:33,599
said, well, hey, man. Whatever pot you're smoking,

415
00:15:33,758 --> 00:15:34,791
could you please get me some?

416
00:15:35,521 --> 00:15:38,718
And so there's a... There's also a spectator

417
00:15:39,012 --> 00:15:39,512
element,

418
00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:42,741
alive in in in much of this.

419
00:15:44,185 --> 00:15:46,569
Maybe speak to that dynamic as well, Kelly.

420
00:15:47,285 --> 00:15:48,239
That's an interesting point.

421
00:15:49,669 --> 00:15:50,941
Actually, I was 1 of those kids who...

422
00:15:51,512 --> 00:15:53,341
Prefer to watch my sister's play video games

423
00:15:53,341 --> 00:15:55,489
and playing them myself. And then when esports,

424
00:15:55,648 --> 00:15:57,238
when I learned about them, Like, yeah, That

425
00:15:57,238 --> 00:15:59,067
kinda makes sense. That seems that seems pretty

426
00:15:59,067 --> 00:15:59,226
cool.

427
00:15:59,879 --> 00:16:02,197
You know, there's also this kind of important...

428
00:16:03,076 --> 00:16:05,233
Like, yeah. As you say, there's almost like

429
00:16:05,233 --> 00:16:07,571
people wrap their identities up in their fandom

430
00:16:07,631 --> 00:16:08,450
or their

431
00:16:09,004 --> 00:16:11,582
you know, their particular sports team, and

432
00:16:12,281 --> 00:16:14,139
there's in the past, there have been

433
00:16:14,838 --> 00:16:17,475
nations where games kind of stood in for

434
00:16:17,475 --> 00:16:18,035
wars. Like,

435
00:16:18,766 --> 00:16:20,352
in Me America,

436
00:16:21,382 --> 00:16:23,523
there was a ball game that people would

437
00:16:23,523 --> 00:16:26,005
play that, like, leaders would play instead of

438
00:16:26,791 --> 00:16:28,461
settling a territorial dispute with, like,

439
00:16:29,416 --> 00:16:31,189
violence, they would play this

440
00:16:31,564 --> 00:16:32,780
ball game and

441
00:16:33,155 --> 00:16:35,638
settle disputes that way. And even, like, emerging

442
00:16:35,638 --> 00:16:37,313
leaders would kind of, you know,

443
00:16:38,271 --> 00:16:40,048
validate their existence through

444
00:16:40,585 --> 00:16:42,441
through winning the game. So

445
00:16:42,995 --> 00:16:44,915
it was a really important kind of form

446
00:16:44,915 --> 00:16:45,415
of

447
00:16:46,434 --> 00:16:46,934
of

448
00:16:47,794 --> 00:16:48,294
conflict

449
00:16:48,595 --> 00:16:50,595
resolution. And that's a, like, a general thing

450
00:16:50,595 --> 00:16:51,735
about games is there

451
00:16:52,689 --> 00:16:53,907
they're ultimately,

452
00:16:54,443 --> 00:16:55,900
in many ways like, a social

453
00:16:56,916 --> 00:16:58,373
science. Like, you're learning

454
00:16:58,990 --> 00:17:00,266
about your opponent. If you're in the game,

455
00:17:00,425 --> 00:17:02,753
you're learning about your opponent's mindset And if

456
00:17:02,753 --> 00:17:05,146
you're the game, you're still seeing how these

457
00:17:05,146 --> 00:17:07,778
people's minds work. You're... Or, you know, their

458
00:17:07,778 --> 00:17:10,570
bodies, like seeing us an athlete being so

459
00:17:10,570 --> 00:17:12,896
brilliant with, like, the way they pass a

460
00:17:12,896 --> 00:17:13,873
ball or

461
00:17:14,327 --> 00:17:16,552
like, you know, Lebron James has, a... What,

462
00:17:16,632 --> 00:17:18,619
like a photographic memory of, like every play

463
00:17:18,619 --> 00:17:19,572
he's ever been in.

464
00:17:20,304 --> 00:17:22,239
So these people have these incredible

465
00:17:23,095 --> 00:17:26,467
mental and and bodily abilities that it's really

466
00:17:26,684 --> 00:17:29,157
beautiful to kind of experience from from the

467
00:17:29,157 --> 00:17:29,636
sideline.

468
00:17:31,166 --> 00:17:33,262
And so it's ultimately... Oh, it's a window

469
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,113
into until people's minds, like, games are...

470
00:17:37,482 --> 00:17:39,174
A a way we kind of

471
00:17:40,025 --> 00:17:42,885
see how how people think. And that's kind

472
00:17:42,885 --> 00:17:45,031
of the intuition but behind Ai and why

473
00:17:45,190 --> 00:17:47,436
Ai has been trained on so many games

474
00:17:47,436 --> 00:17:48,095
is that

475
00:17:48,633 --> 00:17:50,250
we think of it as being this

476
00:17:51,186 --> 00:17:51,686
this

477
00:17:54,393 --> 00:17:56,148
marker of intelligence. And I don't think that's

478
00:17:56,148 --> 00:17:57,902
always true. I mean, there are plenty of

479
00:17:57,902 --> 00:17:59,418
people who are really good at chess and

480
00:17:59,418 --> 00:18:01,252
not necessarily good at other things,

481
00:18:02,449 --> 00:18:02,949
but

482
00:18:03,979 --> 00:18:06,130
it is... It can be a really profoundly

483
00:18:06,130 --> 00:18:08,680
beautiful thing and aesthetic thing to see someone

484
00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:09,875
play beautifully.

485
00:18:11,628 --> 00:18:12,664
I mean, pick your sport.

486
00:18:13,221 --> 00:18:13,461
Right?

487
00:18:14,113 --> 00:18:14,272
Great.

488
00:18:16,105 --> 00:18:18,198
Watching Serena Williams play tennis

489
00:18:19,211 --> 00:18:20,566
is an extraordinary thing.

490
00:18:21,457 --> 00:18:23,391
I mean, the technical ability,

491
00:18:23,847 --> 00:18:24,745
the athletic,

492
00:18:25,679 --> 00:18:27,591
the... And and I say this in the...

493
00:18:28,308 --> 00:18:30,951
In in the most laboratory way, She's a

494
00:18:30,951 --> 00:18:31,348
beast.

495
00:18:32,223 --> 00:18:34,053
Right? She's ferocious,

496
00:18:36,042 --> 00:18:38,526
and it's and it's it's and she's poetry

497
00:18:38,526 --> 00:18:40,520
in emotion. And and that's true for many,

498
00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:41,180
many

499
00:18:41,558 --> 00:18:44,031
athletes in many different sports, some more than

500
00:18:44,031 --> 00:18:46,360
others. Not I'm not sure the average golfer

501
00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:48,594
his poetry and motion. But... Yeah.

502
00:18:50,669 --> 00:18:52,606
It also seems that the sort of

503
00:18:53,078 --> 00:18:54,513
identity with team,

504
00:18:54,991 --> 00:18:55,709
if you will.

505
00:18:56,665 --> 00:18:58,658
I... Let me let me throw a a

506
00:18:58,658 --> 00:18:59,796
crazy crazy

507
00:19:00,253 --> 00:19:00,753
hypothesis.

508
00:19:03,299 --> 00:19:05,853
In the early nineties late eighties, I believe

509
00:19:05,853 --> 00:19:08,566
roughly if Chad Gp is telling me the

510
00:19:08,566 --> 00:19:08,965
right things.

511
00:19:09,859 --> 00:19:12,197
Roughly 90 ish percent of Americans

512
00:19:12,656 --> 00:19:14,174
identified as some kind of a Christian.

513
00:19:15,373 --> 00:19:18,490
And today, that's roughly 60, maybe 65 percent.

514
00:19:18,810 --> 00:19:19,384
Again, you know,

515
00:19:20,103 --> 00:19:21,701
check it out and but it's sort of

516
00:19:21,701 --> 00:19:23,778
in that range. There's been a meaningful drop

517
00:19:23,778 --> 00:19:26,175
off. Mh. And at the same time,

518
00:19:27,068 --> 00:19:27,806
The popularity

519
00:19:28,181 --> 00:19:31,201
of the Nfl has absolutely exploded. The value

520
00:19:31,201 --> 00:19:34,063
of every Nfl team has gone up exponentially.

521
00:19:34,794 --> 00:19:36,709
And the other thing politically that's happened in

522
00:19:36,709 --> 00:19:38,862
our country. Well, we always,

523
00:19:39,979 --> 00:19:42,132
have been and probably always will be a

524
00:19:42,132 --> 00:19:43,807
country that argues used with itself about a

525
00:19:43,807 --> 00:19:44,206
lot of things.

526
00:19:45,019 --> 00:19:46,859
Hopefully, in the pursuit of a more perfect

527
00:19:46,859 --> 00:19:47,180
union.

528
00:19:47,820 --> 00:19:47,980
Yeah.

529
00:19:49,099 --> 00:19:50,480
But the tribalism

530
00:19:51,019 --> 00:19:53,693
or team is, if you will, in politics

531
00:19:53,992 --> 00:19:55,668
today feels very different. You know,

532
00:19:56,625 --> 00:19:58,222
I haven't been lying for the entire time

533
00:19:58,222 --> 00:20:00,217
the country has been around, but certainly in

534
00:20:00,217 --> 00:20:03,017
my lifetime, the The... Everything my team does

535
00:20:03,017 --> 00:20:05,082
is awesome and every team, their team their

536
00:20:05,082 --> 00:20:06,035
team does is stupid,

537
00:20:07,464 --> 00:20:10,104
feels more prevalent today. Yeah. Does any of

538
00:20:10,104 --> 00:20:12,362
this make sense to you that sort of

539
00:20:13,780 --> 00:20:15,958
through a game lens and a self

540
00:20:16,497 --> 00:20:18,255
identification lens. That that is to say I

541
00:20:18,255 --> 00:20:20,743
identify myself with this game and with this

542
00:20:20,743 --> 00:20:21,062
team.

543
00:20:22,577 --> 00:20:24,251
Does it is this a dot I should

544
00:20:24,251 --> 00:20:26,403
be connecting or have Gone completely and saint

545
00:20:26,563 --> 00:20:26,881
Kelly?

546
00:20:27,694 --> 00:20:30,086
Well, I'm I'm not an expert on any

547
00:20:30,086 --> 00:20:31,123
of these matters. And I...

548
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,233
I'm sure there's, like, lots of reasons. All

549
00:20:34,233 --> 00:20:36,786
of these changes have happened in America and

550
00:20:36,786 --> 00:20:37,160
across

551
00:20:37,597 --> 00:20:38,234
across the world.

552
00:20:38,950 --> 00:20:41,121
And, I mean, I do think there's something

553
00:20:41,177 --> 00:20:42,769
important there in this kind of, like,

554
00:20:44,041 --> 00:20:46,519
how do I identify and maybe making politics

555
00:20:46,519 --> 00:20:48,506
more of our personalities than we used to

556
00:20:48,506 --> 00:20:50,594
or something, and then and then

557
00:20:50,968 --> 00:20:53,669
issues with politics become personal intact rather than,

558
00:20:53,828 --> 00:20:53,907
like,

559
00:20:54,638 --> 00:20:56,331
Oh, you have

560
00:20:56,706 --> 00:20:58,615
a different belief about taxes in the e

561
00:20:58,615 --> 00:21:00,842
versus, like, now there's a a much more

562
00:21:00,842 --> 00:21:02,695
kind of... It's a game for supremacy.

563
00:21:03,482 --> 00:21:05,573
Right. Yeah. There's a kind of idea.

564
00:21:06,426 --> 00:21:08,573
Yeah. You know, The other side is trying

565
00:21:08,573 --> 00:21:09,687
to destroy America.

566
00:21:10,338 --> 00:21:12,085
Well, if both sides are right, Everybody's trying

567
00:21:12,085 --> 00:21:14,466
to destroy America. Like, it's it's so crazy.

568
00:21:14,704 --> 00:21:17,086
Right? I the criteria for the next election

569
00:21:17,086 --> 00:21:18,912
for me is not crazy.

570
00:21:20,118 --> 00:21:22,579
Yeah. And it's hard to buy, not crazy.

571
00:21:23,134 --> 00:21:23,293
Yeah.

572
00:21:24,007 --> 00:21:26,547
And and so I guess my point is

573
00:21:26,547 --> 00:21:28,079
if there's a connection between

574
00:21:28,627 --> 00:21:29,580
identity and games,

575
00:21:30,216 --> 00:21:33,236
and everything has become game. I've spent my

576
00:21:33,236 --> 00:21:35,064
entire career in the the tech industry, and

577
00:21:35,064 --> 00:21:36,994
we've been talking about gamification for

578
00:21:37,462 --> 00:21:39,685
Yeah. More than 20 years. And so,

579
00:21:40,479 --> 00:21:42,305
I understand some of those things at some

580
00:21:42,305 --> 00:21:45,084
level. It just seems that identity with team

581
00:21:45,084 --> 00:21:46,140
and or game

582
00:21:46,848 --> 00:21:47,248
increasing,

583
00:21:47,807 --> 00:21:48,945
decreasing values

584
00:21:49,643 --> 00:21:52,198
from religion. You can say that's good better

585
00:21:52,198 --> 00:21:52,676
and different,

586
00:21:53,635 --> 00:21:54,853
and then stronger

587
00:21:55,471 --> 00:21:56,164
identification with

588
00:21:56,839 --> 00:21:58,132
my team in politics,

589
00:21:58,822 --> 00:22:00,250
my team in in sports.

590
00:22:01,122 --> 00:22:03,605
Yeah. So there's also something interesting

591
00:22:04,710 --> 00:22:06,970
with games about... As you say, like, this

592
00:22:07,190 --> 00:22:08,869
identification, Like, if you play a video game,

593
00:22:09,990 --> 00:22:13,049
there's something really intimate about the experience where

594
00:22:13,843 --> 00:22:15,435
it can it can kind of change your

595
00:22:15,435 --> 00:22:17,665
views on things or, like, when you talk...

596
00:22:17,904 --> 00:22:20,134
When you read a novel, you talk about

597
00:22:20,134 --> 00:22:22,099
the character, like, the main character, the protagonist

598
00:22:22,219 --> 00:22:24,709
and you say, like, their name, like, Lars

599
00:22:24,925 --> 00:22:26,755
did this thing, Blah blah blah. But if

600
00:22:26,755 --> 00:22:29,143
you're playing a video game, you know, you're

601
00:22:29,143 --> 00:22:29,643
playing

602
00:22:30,114 --> 00:22:32,352
link or whatever, but you say I did

603
00:22:32,352 --> 00:22:33,950
this. Like, I did this thing,

604
00:22:34,750 --> 00:22:36,508
you know, you you talk about it from

605
00:22:36,508 --> 00:22:38,106
in the first person versus the third person.

606
00:22:38,426 --> 00:22:39,645
And there's something really

607
00:22:40,358 --> 00:22:42,453
amazing about that. Like, that experiential

608
00:22:43,468 --> 00:22:44,527
process of

609
00:22:45,303 --> 00:22:46,340
being involved in a game.

610
00:22:46,898 --> 00:22:49,744
And there there are studies that indicate that

611
00:22:50,265 --> 00:22:50,664
people...

612
00:22:51,224 --> 00:22:53,865
The games are really powerful kind of rhetoric

613
00:22:53,865 --> 00:22:56,025
device where people can play a game and,

614
00:22:56,105 --> 00:22:58,025
like, change our opinions about, for example, like,

615
00:22:58,184 --> 00:22:59,085
a military

616
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:03,240
like a military offense based on the game.

617
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,400
Even... It's so it's actually, like, a really

618
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:07,160
powerful prop propaganda engine.

619
00:23:08,689 --> 00:23:10,201
And then if you think of, like, social

620
00:23:10,201 --> 00:23:13,146
media as these these ga aside things where

621
00:23:13,146 --> 00:23:13,964
you're finding

622
00:23:14,499 --> 00:23:17,238
allegiance with other people on it. You're getting

623
00:23:17,452 --> 00:23:19,435
rewarded with likes and friendships and,

624
00:23:20,229 --> 00:23:22,371
people thinking you're smart for proving that their

625
00:23:22,371 --> 00:23:23,403
earth is flat or whatever.

626
00:23:23,974 --> 00:23:26,711
It's a really game unified environment. And

627
00:23:28,049 --> 00:23:30,127
there's a great quote from Kurt Bon,

628
00:23:31,165 --> 00:23:32,019
something like

629
00:23:32,777 --> 00:23:35,489
the reason that Americans have no natural immunity

630
00:23:35,569 --> 00:23:38,462
C ideas is that ideas have become

631
00:23:39,557 --> 00:23:41,631
badges of of friendship and en.

632
00:23:42,204 --> 00:23:44,444
That we don't hold ideas because they're true,

633
00:23:45,085 --> 00:23:47,484
we hold ideas because our friends hold them

634
00:23:47,484 --> 00:23:49,565
or they give us some kind of social

635
00:23:49,565 --> 00:23:49,805
inclusion.

636
00:23:50,377 --> 00:23:52,679
And so thinking... So, yeah, we're not being

637
00:23:52,679 --> 00:23:55,718
rewarded in, like, points. We're being rewarded with,

638
00:23:56,488 --> 00:23:58,734
you know, the social inclusion or

639
00:23:59,443 --> 00:24:02,316
feeling moral superiority or whatever it is.

640
00:24:02,954 --> 00:24:04,630
So I think there's... I think there's something

641
00:24:04,630 --> 00:24:06,247
to that. Yeah. Fascinating.

642
00:24:06,879 --> 00:24:08,877
I must be an insane person because all

643
00:24:08,877 --> 00:24:12,634
of my work is despise by the status

644
00:24:12,634 --> 00:24:13,593
quo in the mainstream.

645
00:24:14,632 --> 00:24:17,224
It must be a sadistic pastor. But

646
00:24:17,836 --> 00:24:18,789
that's neither ear nor there.

647
00:24:19,742 --> 00:24:21,649
As you were speaking, I was reminded of

648
00:24:21,649 --> 00:24:24,529
something my my buddy Nicholas cole and long

649
00:24:24,529 --> 00:24:26,769
long time writing partner and category pirates,

650
00:24:28,049 --> 00:24:30,369
is known to say, which was he... So

651
00:24:30,369 --> 00:24:32,403
he... He is 1 of the most red

652
00:24:32,619 --> 00:24:34,211
digital writers in the world. Like,

653
00:24:35,007 --> 00:24:36,598
I don't even know. Right? He wrote on

654
00:24:36,598 --> 00:24:37,871
core for years, and he's written and he's

655
00:24:37,871 --> 00:24:40,434
written everywhere. And a whole bunch of books

656
00:24:40,434 --> 00:24:42,826
and a handful of books with me and

657
00:24:42,905 --> 00:24:43,942
Eddie Yu. Anyway,

658
00:24:44,739 --> 00:24:45,536
he grew up,

659
00:24:46,094 --> 00:24:46,891
playing video games.

660
00:24:47,544 --> 00:24:49,059
He's in his early thirties.

661
00:24:50,255 --> 00:24:51,691
Oh, shit. I meant to look at it

662
00:24:51,691 --> 00:24:53,765
before I got on our session here.

663
00:24:54,961 --> 00:24:57,136
Do you know the average amount of time

664
00:24:57,685 --> 00:24:59,216
the, an American,

665
00:24:59,748 --> 00:25:01,889
20 to 30 year old spends playing video

666
00:25:01,889 --> 00:25:02,207
games?

667
00:25:02,921 --> 00:25:06,125
I don't. Shit. 8 hours in my head,

668
00:25:06,365 --> 00:25:08,765
a week? Oh, wow. But like quick. Yeah.

669
00:25:08,924 --> 00:25:10,444
Maybe if you could look it up, it's

670
00:25:10,444 --> 00:25:12,045
a stunning amount it. Like, it's like, a

671
00:25:12,045 --> 00:25:15,175
full time job for man under 18, and

672
00:25:15,175 --> 00:25:17,191
it's like a part time job for men

673
00:25:17,649 --> 00:25:18,367
18. Well,

674
00:25:19,245 --> 00:25:21,080
anyway, he grew up playing video games.

675
00:25:21,974 --> 00:25:23,892
And when he started writing on the internet,

676
00:25:25,730 --> 00:25:26,789
writing viral

677
00:25:27,328 --> 00:25:30,125
content on the Internet was a video game

678
00:25:30,125 --> 00:25:30,525
for him.

679
00:25:31,259 --> 00:25:33,816
Oh, cool. And that's part of his success.

680
00:25:34,375 --> 00:25:35,595
Interesting. Is

681
00:25:36,453 --> 00:25:38,551
just like he understood the algorithms

682
00:25:39,424 --> 00:25:40,325
of a game

683
00:25:40,785 --> 00:25:42,724
and the, quote, the skills

684
00:25:43,105 --> 00:25:44,625
that you need to,

685
00:25:45,744 --> 00:25:48,796
optimize your outcome around whatever the construct of

686
00:25:48,796 --> 00:25:49,593
the game is,

687
00:25:50,550 --> 00:25:52,544
it's exactly the same thing on Twitter. It's

688
00:25:52,544 --> 00:25:54,538
exactly the same thing on Linkedin on filling

689
00:25:54,538 --> 00:25:57,091
in your blank. Once you understand the game,

690
00:25:57,584 --> 00:25:59,971
which few people do, but it's... For him,

691
00:26:00,051 --> 00:26:01,961
it's intuitively easy to figure out.

692
00:26:03,235 --> 00:26:03,473
Bam.

693
00:26:04,428 --> 00:26:04,667
Yeah.

694
00:26:05,398 --> 00:26:07,781
And so III thought that was so interesting

695
00:26:07,781 --> 00:26:10,403
to think about in his case, growing audience

696
00:26:10,403 --> 00:26:12,548
on the internet is all just a big

697
00:26:12,548 --> 00:26:12,865
game.

698
00:26:13,994 --> 00:26:16,631
And your lens is telling me really everything

699
00:26:16,631 --> 00:26:17,430
is just a big game.

700
00:26:18,469 --> 00:26:19,609
Yeah. I think that's

701
00:26:20,307 --> 00:26:21,127
that's actually

702
00:26:21,746 --> 00:26:22,486
a big

703
00:26:23,517 --> 00:26:25,666
something that people are working on more is

704
00:26:25,666 --> 00:26:27,816
kind of game of flying making apps that

705
00:26:27,816 --> 00:26:29,568
people can kind of ga their life. Like,

706
00:26:29,887 --> 00:26:31,262
oh, you get badges for

707
00:26:32,211 --> 00:26:34,842
remembering to wash your clothes or, you know,

708
00:26:35,479 --> 00:26:37,392
Seinfeld had a very simple system for writing

709
00:26:37,392 --> 00:26:38,747
where he would just, like, have a calendar

710
00:26:38,747 --> 00:26:40,675
and make a big red mark every day

711
00:26:40,675 --> 00:26:41,631
that he wrote to, like,

712
00:26:42,349 --> 00:26:45,218
remind himself that... To keep that kind of,

713
00:26:45,298 --> 00:26:45,616
you know,

714
00:26:46,493 --> 00:26:47,131
streak going.

715
00:26:47,703 --> 00:26:50,086
So having ways of rewarding yourself... Like, visually,

716
00:26:50,165 --> 00:26:51,753
like, oh, wow. I just wrote for, like,

717
00:26:51,912 --> 00:26:53,739
every day for a month straight. That's great.

718
00:26:54,930 --> 00:26:56,757
So I think that's a really powerful way

719
00:26:56,757 --> 00:26:58,545
that people are trying to

720
00:26:59,000 --> 00:26:59,500
cod,

721
00:27:00,034 --> 00:27:01,546
and that's amazing that that works for him.

722
00:27:01,864 --> 00:27:02,364
I

723
00:27:03,376 --> 00:27:04,808
I haven't really tried it to to be

724
00:27:04,808 --> 00:27:06,161
honest with my own work. I mean,

725
00:27:06,972 --> 00:27:08,646
I feel satisfaction in, like, getting things done,

726
00:27:08,806 --> 00:27:10,262
but I think that would be

727
00:27:10,798 --> 00:27:11,994
a nice thing to kind of, like,

728
00:27:12,791 --> 00:27:14,878
to really turn it to a game because

729
00:27:14,878 --> 00:27:16,153
then I I know a lot of, like,

730
00:27:16,393 --> 00:27:18,545
day traders do this, like, financial people do

731
00:27:18,545 --> 00:27:21,254
this where they wanna rise to the top

732
00:27:21,254 --> 00:27:22,211
of the leader board.

733
00:27:23,892 --> 00:27:26,110
Get the biggest bonuses whatever. So I I

734
00:27:26,110 --> 00:27:26,927
do think people

735
00:27:27,378 --> 00:27:29,621
do this. I'm I looked up the

736
00:27:30,090 --> 00:27:33,049
average time that people spend on video games

737
00:27:33,049 --> 00:27:34,490
18 to 29 years is 6 to 10

738
00:27:34,490 --> 00:27:36,570
hours per week, but 8 percent of people

739
00:27:36,570 --> 00:27:38,330
played video games more than 20 hours a

740
00:27:38,330 --> 00:27:38,890
week on average.

741
00:27:39,463 --> 00:27:42,414
So... 8. Yeah. But on average, it's 6

742
00:27:42,414 --> 00:27:42,973
8 hours.

743
00:27:43,611 --> 00:27:45,685
6 to 6 to 10 per week. 6...

744
00:27:45,844 --> 00:27:46,743
So the average

745
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:48,636
person or male.

746
00:27:49,289 --> 00:27:51,838
Oh, sorry. This was person. Let's see. The

747
00:27:51,838 --> 00:27:52,635
average person.

748
00:27:53,272 --> 00:27:55,264
Yeah. 20 to 30 in America place 6

749
00:27:55,264 --> 00:27:57,111
to 10 hours a week? Let's see. If...

750
00:27:57,349 --> 00:27:59,577
So the average is 6 to 10, but

751
00:27:59,577 --> 00:28:00,474
8 percent

752
00:28:01,167 --> 00:28:02,042
play 20 or more.

753
00:28:02,838 --> 00:28:04,767
Let's see. I It's also... I'm not sure

754
00:28:04,767 --> 00:28:06,044
if any of this can be trusted. This

755
00:28:06,044 --> 00:28:08,519
is just, like random Quick Google search. I'm

756
00:28:08,519 --> 00:28:10,275
getting lots of pop ups. Yeah. It seems

757
00:28:10,275 --> 00:28:12,053
like averages is probably

758
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:15,412
hire for men, like, maybe

759
00:28:16,263 --> 00:28:18,193
50 ish percent higher for men, so

760
00:28:18,965 --> 00:28:19,283
maybe...

761
00:28:19,998 --> 00:28:21,667
12 hours a week. For 12 hours. Yeah.

762
00:28:22,478 --> 00:28:25,106
So at a... The... A man in America,

763
00:28:25,585 --> 00:28:28,134
who who's between 20 and 30 years of

764
00:28:28,134 --> 00:28:28,373
age,

765
00:28:29,503 --> 00:28:31,414
is likely to be playing 12 hours a

766
00:28:31,414 --> 00:28:33,963
week of a video game. Yeah. Now,

767
00:28:35,476 --> 00:28:37,467
I think when most people hear that,

768
00:28:38,437 --> 00:28:40,183
and even maybe the way I just said

769
00:28:40,183 --> 00:28:40,342
it,

770
00:28:42,405 --> 00:28:44,152
there's a judgment attached to it.

771
00:28:44,866 --> 00:28:46,692
Right. You have a very different lens.

772
00:28:47,183 --> 00:28:48,774
Kelly. So when you hear that,

773
00:28:49,888 --> 00:28:52,274
what goes on in that neurology brain of

774
00:28:52,274 --> 00:28:52,513
yours?

775
00:28:53,308 --> 00:28:53,547
Yeah.

776
00:28:54,357 --> 00:28:56,506
I mean, I think in many ways, games

777
00:28:56,506 --> 00:28:59,712
are probably healthier than Tv because you're

778
00:29:00,166 --> 00:29:01,223
being active

779
00:29:01,693 --> 00:29:05,269
in thinking and engaging and practicing your fast

780
00:29:05,269 --> 00:29:08,209
twitch muscles and it's it's just more an

781
00:29:08,209 --> 00:29:08,709
involved

782
00:29:09,099 --> 00:29:11,170
state of mind. Tv is very passive and

783
00:29:11,170 --> 00:29:11,829
kind of

784
00:29:12,763 --> 00:29:13,502
almost h.

785
00:29:14,197 --> 00:29:15,653
So there's something I think

786
00:29:16,362 --> 00:29:19,248
powerful about games. Of course, there is problematic

787
00:29:19,305 --> 00:29:20,202
gaming where people

788
00:29:20,895 --> 00:29:23,042
play more than they want to impacts their

789
00:29:23,042 --> 00:29:24,314
life impacts their relationships,

790
00:29:25,109 --> 00:29:25,848
and that's

791
00:29:26,159 --> 00:29:27,917
I think like, 1 percent of people globally,

792
00:29:28,077 --> 00:29:29,915
1 to 3 percent of people have, like,

793
00:29:30,075 --> 00:29:32,153
really addictive game habits.

794
00:29:33,352 --> 00:29:35,030
But I think for for a lot of

795
00:29:35,030 --> 00:29:37,137
people, it's it's really a a healthy

796
00:29:38,701 --> 00:29:40,392
diversion. And it's also ultimately,

797
00:29:41,003 --> 00:29:42,353
I see it as a form of learning.

798
00:29:42,512 --> 00:29:44,441
Like, we are interested in games because

799
00:29:45,150 --> 00:29:46,910
we're learning how to. We we're improving our

800
00:29:46,910 --> 00:29:48,049
skills. We are

801
00:29:49,150 --> 00:29:52,190
exploring new worlds. We are satisfying these little

802
00:29:52,190 --> 00:29:53,150
mental pitches. Like,

803
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:55,550
you can think of games as being these...

804
00:29:55,788 --> 00:29:57,139
They're kind, like, an inverse of the mind.

805
00:29:57,377 --> 00:29:58,967
They're, like, things that the mind likes to

806
00:29:58,967 --> 00:30:02,085
do. I mean, ultimately the mind, the brain

807
00:30:02,085 --> 00:30:04,475
invented games to fa itself. And we've just

808
00:30:04,475 --> 00:30:06,171
kind of evolved more and more

809
00:30:07,743 --> 00:30:08,243
incredible,

810
00:30:09,031 --> 00:30:10,856
fascinating games to to do that.

811
00:30:11,570 --> 00:30:13,634
So... And I mean, things like the fact

812
00:30:13,634 --> 00:30:15,062
that Chess has been around for thousands of

813
00:30:15,062 --> 00:30:16,649
years is really testament to that that, like,

814
00:30:17,778 --> 00:30:20,170
we have liked it for ages, and it's

815
00:30:20,170 --> 00:30:21,765
still fresh for a lot of people, and

816
00:30:21,845 --> 00:30:24,077
It seems it seems incredibly popular now. And

817
00:30:24,237 --> 00:30:26,525
I think the digital technology has made it

818
00:30:27,045 --> 00:30:28,404
even more pop popular,

819
00:30:29,045 --> 00:30:30,724
we had Gary Ka on.

820
00:30:31,445 --> 00:30:34,099
Yeah. And... Oh cool. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, 1

821
00:30:34,099 --> 00:30:35,612
of the most fascinating people in the world,

822
00:30:35,771 --> 00:30:38,080
really. I bet. Yeah. He's right. I could've

823
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:39,912
spent 12 hours with him no problem. Probably

824
00:30:39,912 --> 00:30:40,469
12 weeks. Yeah.

825
00:30:41,743 --> 00:30:42,243
But

826
00:30:42,794 --> 00:30:44,309
you know, to hear him say,

827
00:30:44,788 --> 00:30:46,404
without hesitation and

828
00:30:46,781 --> 00:30:47,680
complete clarity

829
00:30:48,855 --> 00:30:51,008
that he can't beat the chess game on

830
00:30:51,008 --> 00:30:53,099
his iphone if it set at the highest

831
00:30:53,099 --> 00:30:54,779
setting, like not even close.

832
00:30:55,339 --> 00:30:55,579
Right.

833
00:30:56,299 --> 00:30:57,740
Like a hundred times out of a hundred,

834
00:30:57,819 --> 00:30:59,019
it probably beats them.

835
00:30:59,913 --> 00:31:00,950
And he just says it.

836
00:31:01,748 --> 00:31:01,907
Right.

837
00:31:02,864 --> 00:31:04,960
That's a fascinating thing. And

838
00:31:05,975 --> 00:31:07,650
and you could interpret that as, well, fuck,

839
00:31:07,809 --> 00:31:08,846
that's really defeating.

840
00:31:09,579 --> 00:31:12,070
But yet, Chess is super popular.

841
00:31:12,686 --> 00:31:15,018
And so I find that incredibly fascinating.

842
00:31:16,032 --> 00:31:16,271
Right.

843
00:31:16,844 --> 00:31:19,561
And people are using these kind of online

844
00:31:19,561 --> 00:31:20,061
chess

845
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,338
games as coaches. Like, people are becoming

846
00:31:23,717 --> 00:31:25,955
better at Chess. We're, like, discovering new things

847
00:31:25,955 --> 00:31:28,997
about chess through these Ai programs that are

848
00:31:28,997 --> 00:31:30,668
showing us new ways of playing and new

849
00:31:30,668 --> 00:31:31,805
strategies and

850
00:31:32,738 --> 00:31:34,966
so, yeah, I think there's something really great.

851
00:31:35,205 --> 00:31:36,894
Although, you know, there's also,

852
00:31:38,414 --> 00:31:38,914
the

853
00:31:39,375 --> 00:31:41,934
go master Lease at all, quit go because

854
00:31:41,934 --> 00:31:44,150
he said there's an entity that

855
00:31:44,668 --> 00:31:46,503
is un beat. So why do I... Why

856
00:31:46,503 --> 00:31:48,179
would A thing? Right.

857
00:31:49,376 --> 00:31:51,451
I'm sorry. How'd to do it. Had to

858
00:31:51,451 --> 00:31:51,690
do it.

859
00:31:52,980 --> 00:31:54,255
I I have the bind of an 8

860
00:31:54,255 --> 00:31:55,131
year old boy.

861
00:31:57,281 --> 00:31:58,237
Who drinks alcohol.

862
00:32:01,198 --> 00:32:02,944
And so if I came to you, if

863
00:32:03,103 --> 00:32:04,848
I was an entrepreneur, and I came to

864
00:32:04,848 --> 00:32:05,642
you. And I said,

865
00:32:06,515 --> 00:32:07,626
here's what we're trying to do. We have

866
00:32:07,626 --> 00:32:09,664
a a big idea to solve a really

867
00:32:10,264 --> 00:32:10,983
big problem.

868
00:32:11,702 --> 00:32:13,539
A problem that most people don't see yet,

869
00:32:13,699 --> 00:32:15,856
but we think they're gonna really understand when

870
00:32:15,856 --> 00:32:16,975
we explain it to them.

871
00:32:17,950 --> 00:32:18,450
And

872
00:32:18,750 --> 00:32:20,349
what we're trying to do is create a

873
00:32:20,349 --> 00:32:21,409
new market category

874
00:32:22,109 --> 00:32:24,750
with a breakthrough product to solve a a

875
00:32:24,750 --> 00:32:25,470
big problem.

876
00:32:25,950 --> 00:32:28,141
But 1 that 1 that requires,

877
00:32:29,235 --> 00:32:31,547
a different way of thinking about something. So

878
00:32:31,547 --> 00:32:33,699
we're gonna... We're challenging the status quo with

879
00:32:33,699 --> 00:32:34,656
some kind of a breakthrough.

880
00:32:35,309 --> 00:32:37,302
Both from a product perspective as well as

881
00:32:37,302 --> 00:32:39,296
this is a new market category of of

882
00:32:39,296 --> 00:32:39,615
product.

883
00:32:41,290 --> 00:32:42,964
So if I was somebody wanting to do

884
00:32:42,964 --> 00:32:43,921
that kind of thing,

885
00:32:45,372 --> 00:32:48,164
what advice would you give me through through

886
00:32:48,164 --> 00:32:49,440
your lens? Yeah.

887
00:32:50,477 --> 00:32:52,572
This is a cool question. And I think

888
00:32:53,508 --> 00:32:54,008
1

889
00:32:55,198 --> 00:32:57,133
insight that I have is

890
00:32:58,069 --> 00:32:58,968
a lot of

891
00:32:59,505 --> 00:33:00,005
the

892
00:33:01,100 --> 00:33:03,333
tech vision we think of, like, the Sun

893
00:33:03,333 --> 00:33:04,505
pic chai or

894
00:33:04,943 --> 00:33:05,901
Elon Musk. They...

895
00:33:06,698 --> 00:33:09,890
Their earliest coding experiences were in building games.

896
00:33:10,847 --> 00:33:11,485
Mark Ben,

897
00:33:12,614 --> 00:33:14,443
like, would actually sell games Atari.

898
00:33:15,795 --> 00:33:17,862
So I think it's a really cool way

899
00:33:17,862 --> 00:33:20,804
of getting into systems thinking. Like, designing games

900
00:33:20,804 --> 00:33:21,654
is a way of

901
00:33:22,252 --> 00:33:23,947
figuring out how you can

902
00:33:24,483 --> 00:33:27,670
get your players to behave in the way

903
00:33:27,670 --> 00:33:30,856
you want. And this is something that board

904
00:33:30,856 --> 00:33:31,309
game

905
00:33:31,668 --> 00:33:34,140
designer, Reiner K talks about. He says, like,

906
00:33:34,698 --> 00:33:36,213
when I'm starting a game, I have it...

907
00:33:36,532 --> 00:33:37,431
Like, I have

908
00:33:38,047 --> 00:33:39,642
the idea in my mind how I want

909
00:33:39,642 --> 00:33:41,412
it to work. And the first thing I

910
00:33:41,412 --> 00:33:42,231
do is

911
00:33:42,609 --> 00:33:44,525
develop the scoring system because the way that

912
00:33:44,525 --> 00:33:46,441
people get rewarded is how you will get

913
00:33:46,441 --> 00:33:47,878
them to behave and the way you want

914
00:33:47,878 --> 00:33:48,836
the the game to work.

915
00:33:49,728 --> 00:33:51,634
And I think this is, like, great advice

916
00:33:51,634 --> 00:33:53,223
for anything because you can look at...

917
00:33:54,494 --> 00:33:56,321
The example I come to is, for example,

918
00:33:56,559 --> 00:33:58,148
I was at Google and there's a famous

919
00:33:58,148 --> 00:33:59,180
thing called the Google Graveyard.

920
00:33:59,832 --> 00:34:02,541
Where Google will, like, push out all these

921
00:34:02,541 --> 00:34:05,409
new products that they are all excited about.

922
00:34:05,648 --> 00:34:08,217
And then a couple months later, they go

923
00:34:08,217 --> 00:34:10,215
into the graveyard. Like, they're just forgotten. Like

924
00:34:10,374 --> 00:34:12,851
Google Plus and, you know, there's all kinds

925
00:34:12,851 --> 00:34:13,351
of

926
00:34:14,143 --> 00:34:16,054
little services they started up and then they

927
00:34:16,054 --> 00:34:17,748
went nowhere. And the reason,

928
00:34:18,362 --> 00:34:19,953
you know, internally in the company, the reason

929
00:34:19,953 --> 00:34:21,568
you see that happening is because

930
00:34:22,039 --> 00:34:23,177
Google get

931
00:34:24,113 --> 00:34:25,549
promoted for starting projects,

932
00:34:26,108 --> 00:34:27,704
and they do not get promoted for maintaining

933
00:34:27,704 --> 00:34:28,103
projects.

934
00:34:28,741 --> 00:34:29,241
So

935
00:34:29,554 --> 00:34:32,821
you can see the... Oh You know, Talia...

936
00:34:33,299 --> 00:34:35,212
Yeah. I know. It really is. And this

937
00:34:35,212 --> 00:34:36,646
is so true of so many companies where

938
00:34:36,646 --> 00:34:36,885
it's, like,

939
00:34:38,018 --> 00:34:40,891
you know, chase chase Chase Johnny, Chase, Shiny

940
00:34:40,891 --> 00:34:44,164
things, and just keep exactly. Right. Yeah. And

941
00:34:44,164 --> 00:34:46,160
then so people were actually getting a baby.

942
00:34:46,414 --> 00:34:48,727
D. This is a Zebra chasing down rabbit

943
00:34:48,727 --> 00:34:48,966
hole,

944
00:34:50,243 --> 00:34:50,960
super playground.

945
00:34:51,598 --> 00:34:51,838
Right.

946
00:34:53,273 --> 00:34:55,028
So, yeah. So you can think about how

947
00:34:55,028 --> 00:34:56,246
you incentivize people

948
00:34:56,717 --> 00:34:59,261
by rewarding them with promotions or whatever it

949
00:34:59,261 --> 00:34:59,420
is.

950
00:35:00,692 --> 00:35:01,192
And

951
00:35:02,282 --> 00:35:03,475
and Think, I mean, this is a hard

952
00:35:03,475 --> 00:35:04,747
thing to do. Obviously, like, there's a lot

953
00:35:04,747 --> 00:35:05,883
of smart people at Google

954
00:35:06,194 --> 00:35:08,587
And... But, of course, like, a corporation doesn't

955
00:35:08,587 --> 00:35:10,661
have a brain. Like, there's no, like, frontal

956
00:35:10,661 --> 00:35:13,532
cortex for an organization. Like, they're... It's very

957
00:35:13,532 --> 00:35:15,707
hard to get feedback or, like, to really

958
00:35:16,179 --> 00:35:18,335
figure out how to change an institutional structure.

959
00:35:18,494 --> 00:35:21,208
So probably, like, the sooner you incorporate those

960
00:35:21,208 --> 00:35:23,284
things into your business, the better off you

961
00:35:23,284 --> 00:35:23,444
are.

962
00:35:24,721 --> 00:35:25,120
Fantastic.

963
00:35:25,854 --> 00:35:26,893
Along the same lines,

964
00:35:28,331 --> 00:35:28,891
I have

965
00:35:30,249 --> 00:35:32,327
let me say, a lucky amount of wonderful

966
00:35:32,327 --> 00:35:33,525
younger people in my life.

967
00:35:34,498 --> 00:35:36,165
And this is an area of interest for

968
00:35:36,165 --> 00:35:38,466
many of them for all the obvious reasons.

969
00:35:39,419 --> 00:35:41,855
And so if I was a younger person

970
00:35:41,894 --> 00:35:43,491
and coming to you, and I wanted to

971
00:35:43,491 --> 00:35:45,907
get into game design or some other

972
00:35:47,164 --> 00:35:47,664
creative

973
00:35:48,202 --> 00:35:50,697
entrepreneurial, innovative endeavor, but really

974
00:35:51,076 --> 00:35:51,576
focused

975
00:35:52,048 --> 00:35:53,324
mostly on game design.

976
00:35:54,043 --> 00:35:55,478
I want it to be central to my

977
00:35:55,478 --> 00:35:58,190
life. Mh. What would you advise me to

978
00:35:58,190 --> 00:36:01,540
start working on thinking about reading, doing, etcetera?

979
00:36:02,113 --> 00:36:02,352
Yeah.

980
00:36:03,786 --> 00:36:05,800
There's like, a couple of

981
00:36:07,132 --> 00:36:08,567
canonical game design books.

982
00:36:09,297 --> 00:36:11,761
That I think 1 could start with. The

983
00:36:11,761 --> 00:36:13,668
the issue is there's not a ton of,

984
00:36:13,748 --> 00:36:15,734
like, formal education on this stuff, like,

985
00:36:16,623 --> 00:36:19,825
there are some universities that offer game design

986
00:36:20,755 --> 00:36:22,266
accreditation, I guess, but I don't think they're...

987
00:36:23,458 --> 00:36:25,126
I think it's hard. I think ultimately,

988
00:36:25,539 --> 00:36:27,929
the thing to do is just start designing

989
00:36:27,929 --> 00:36:30,181
games, like, start playing around

990
00:36:30,557 --> 00:36:31,036
because a,

991
00:36:31,912 --> 00:36:33,675
it doesn't take a lot. Like, if you're

992
00:36:33,675 --> 00:36:35,342
designing a board game, you need, like, some

993
00:36:35,342 --> 00:36:35,739
cardboard.

994
00:36:36,691 --> 00:36:39,866
If you're designing a computer game, there's increasingly

995
00:36:39,866 --> 00:36:42,268
these like, amazing tools that make it much

996
00:36:42,268 --> 00:36:42,768
easier

997
00:36:43,382 --> 00:36:45,053
to design your own game. I think like

998
00:36:45,053 --> 00:36:47,202
roadblocks is basically this, like, sandbox where you

999
00:36:47,202 --> 00:36:48,952
can make all kinds of interesting things.

1000
00:36:50,001 --> 00:36:50,978
So the

1001
00:36:51,989 --> 00:36:53,977
the fruits are kind of low hanging in

1002
00:36:53,977 --> 00:36:54,954
that sense where

1003
00:36:55,408 --> 00:36:56,362
you can do a lot of cool stuff

1004
00:36:56,362 --> 00:36:58,589
with the tools, the tools that exist.

1005
00:36:59,797 --> 00:37:02,103
So I I think reading some of the,

1006
00:37:02,421 --> 00:37:04,965
some of the writings of one's favorite game

1007
00:37:04,965 --> 00:37:05,283
designers,

1008
00:37:06,396 --> 00:37:08,145
figuring out what it is about the games

1009
00:37:08,145 --> 00:37:09,043
that you like

1010
00:37:09,354 --> 00:37:10,873
like, really pick that apart. And I mean,

1011
00:37:10,952 --> 00:37:12,791
that's the same for writing. Right? Like, we

1012
00:37:12,791 --> 00:37:15,268
read writers we love. We figure out, like,

1013
00:37:15,348 --> 00:37:17,186
what is it that's so beautiful about the

1014
00:37:17,186 --> 00:37:18,798
way they write. And then we can try

1015
00:37:18,798 --> 00:37:19,996
to incorporate or at least like,

1016
00:37:21,034 --> 00:37:22,630
feel inspired by it in our own writing.

1017
00:37:22,790 --> 00:37:24,227
And so staying with game design. Like, what

1018
00:37:24,227 --> 00:37:25,664
are the games that really compel you. And

1019
00:37:25,664 --> 00:37:26,942
that also, I think tells you a lot

1020
00:37:26,942 --> 00:37:27,580
about yourself like,

1021
00:37:28,314 --> 00:37:30,172
if you're really into tetris, maybe

1022
00:37:30,711 --> 00:37:32,490
you have, like, organizational

1023
00:37:32,949 --> 00:37:33,189
pull.

1024
00:37:34,307 --> 00:37:35,506
I mean, it tells it tells you about

1025
00:37:35,506 --> 00:37:37,320
people in general. Like, it's really cool that

1026
00:37:37,599 --> 00:37:39,355
I some... That's something I see in so

1027
00:37:39,355 --> 00:37:42,229
many games where there's this, like, a mechanic

1028
00:37:42,229 --> 00:37:43,666
where it doesn't seem to be spoken. Like,

1029
00:37:43,746 --> 00:37:45,342
oh, there's some kind of like, black ooze

1030
00:37:45,342 --> 00:37:47,509
you need to clean up or There's some

1031
00:37:47,509 --> 00:37:48,859
corruption happening in the world. You need to

1032
00:37:48,859 --> 00:37:50,869
fix it. There's this very primal

1033
00:37:51,322 --> 00:37:53,705
desire to, like, purify and cleanse. So there's

1034
00:37:53,705 --> 00:37:56,769
these interesting... Yeah. Sort of universal human

1035
00:37:57,230 --> 00:37:57,730
instincts

1036
00:37:58,109 --> 00:38:00,670
that I think games are speaking to, these,

1037
00:38:00,750 --> 00:38:02,989
like, mental habits that we we want to,

1038
00:38:03,150 --> 00:38:03,230
like,

1039
00:38:04,605 --> 00:38:06,924
Express. You just taught me something Killing.

1040
00:38:07,565 --> 00:38:09,404
Really. So my favorite sport to play as

1041
00:38:09,404 --> 00:38:10,605
a boy was baseball.

1042
00:38:11,098 --> 00:38:12,531
Okay. Even though I grew up in Montreal,

1043
00:38:12,690 --> 00:38:14,440
Canada and obviously, hockey.

1044
00:38:15,236 --> 00:38:15,395
Anyway,

1045
00:38:16,748 --> 00:38:18,578
what you you just taught me why? I

1046
00:38:18,578 --> 00:38:19,851
love baseball so much.

1047
00:38:21,059 --> 00:38:22,886
Because it's a team sport. I wanna be

1048
00:38:22,886 --> 00:38:25,587
on a team. I'm not a solo performer.

1049
00:38:26,302 --> 00:38:26,802
And

1050
00:38:27,748 --> 00:38:29,105
From time to time, I like to stand

1051
00:38:29,105 --> 00:38:31,339
in the batter box and be the person

1052
00:38:31,339 --> 00:38:32,216
taking care of business.

1053
00:38:32,695 --> 00:38:35,262
Oh, yeah. For the team. Yeah. And I

1054
00:38:35,262 --> 00:38:37,172
never thought of that until right now, you

1055
00:38:37,172 --> 00:38:38,366
just talk... You just taught me.

1056
00:38:39,321 --> 00:38:39,821
Amazing

1057
00:38:41,868 --> 00:38:44,670
That's great. Yeah. So finding out... Yeah. I

1058
00:38:44,670 --> 00:38:46,444
think Games really teach us a lot about

1059
00:38:47,219 --> 00:38:49,767
what what makes us tick. And then what

1060
00:38:49,767 --> 00:38:51,494
makes humans tick in general and then

1061
00:38:52,011 --> 00:38:53,757
you know, you can... I think the way

1062
00:38:53,757 --> 00:38:54,257
that

1063
00:38:54,710 --> 00:38:57,171
the the way that innovation happens in gaming

1064
00:38:57,171 --> 00:38:57,671
is

1065
00:38:58,123 --> 00:39:01,312
what's really happening is the designers are discovering

1066
00:39:01,312 --> 00:39:02,050
some new

1067
00:39:02,740 --> 00:39:04,802
itch to scratch for the human brain. Like,

1068
00:39:05,278 --> 00:39:07,474
in the past, like 10 years, there's been

1069
00:39:07,594 --> 00:39:08,627
and a lot of games I've seen this,

1070
00:39:08,706 --> 00:39:10,240
like, fishing mini game where

1071
00:39:10,614 --> 00:39:11,489
you can kind of, like,

1072
00:39:12,204 --> 00:39:13,873
fish in all these different games and get

1073
00:39:13,873 --> 00:39:15,542
the, like, collect these different fish and do

1074
00:39:15,542 --> 00:39:18,266
different things with them. And that's really speaking

1075
00:39:18,266 --> 00:39:21,160
this kind of, like, primal hunting forage gathering

1076
00:39:21,219 --> 00:39:24,411
thing. So so I think finding those little...

1077
00:39:25,144 --> 00:39:27,722
New to scratch is how we

1078
00:39:28,579 --> 00:39:30,497
make more exciting new games for ourselves.

1079
00:39:31,935 --> 00:39:32,255
Kelly?

1080
00:39:32,907 --> 00:39:35,052
Mh. That was fucking genius what you just

1081
00:39:35,052 --> 00:39:35,211
said?

1082
00:39:36,084 --> 00:39:36,640
No really?

1083
00:39:37,276 --> 00:39:39,658
I'm glad. Because you think about... So I

1084
00:39:39,658 --> 00:39:41,326
think about it through the category design lens.

1085
00:39:41,485 --> 00:39:42,223
How do you

1086
00:39:43,251 --> 00:39:44,309
design a market

1087
00:39:44,687 --> 00:39:46,202
just in the same way you design a

1088
00:39:46,202 --> 00:39:48,275
product or a company or a business model

1089
00:39:48,275 --> 00:39:49,152
or or a game.

1090
00:39:49,950 --> 00:39:51,385
Turns out you can design markets.

1091
00:39:51,959 --> 00:39:53,474
They don't just happen like the weather.

1092
00:39:54,670 --> 00:39:55,148
Before Open

1093
00:39:55,945 --> 00:39:57,163
Created the

1094
00:39:57,699 --> 00:40:01,224
product chat Gp in a category of generative

1095
00:40:01,304 --> 00:40:01,783
Ai,

1096
00:40:02,582 --> 00:40:04,980
the sum total demand for generative Ai was

1097
00:40:04,980 --> 00:40:05,379
0.

1098
00:40:06,817 --> 00:40:08,336
And there are rumors out there that say

1099
00:40:08,336 --> 00:40:09,510
they're on a 4000000000

1100
00:40:09,629 --> 00:40:11,457
dollar run rate, and we know for a

1101
00:40:11,457 --> 00:40:13,126
fact that they're the fastest growing start up

1102
00:40:13,126 --> 00:40:13,682
in history.

1103
00:40:14,556 --> 00:40:15,056
So

1104
00:40:15,510 --> 00:40:16,543
so what's my point?

1105
00:40:17,513 --> 00:40:19,821
New itch to scratch for the brain.

1106
00:40:22,845 --> 00:40:25,961
Tiktok, incredible example. Right? Right. Who knew that

1107
00:40:25,961 --> 00:40:27,787
was it? It's the brain needed scratched?

1108
00:40:28,978 --> 00:40:29,216
Right.

1109
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,821
Almost impossible to see for most of us.

1110
00:40:34,313 --> 00:40:36,626
Radically non obvious. And, of course, like all

1111
00:40:36,626 --> 00:40:38,959
things that were radically non obvious to become

1112
00:40:39,177 --> 00:40:40,793
smash hit new mega categories.

1113
00:40:41,329 --> 00:40:42,148
Today, radically.

1114
00:40:43,178 --> 00:40:43,417
Right.

1115
00:40:44,690 --> 00:40:46,203
Okay. So let me ask you this question.

1116
00:40:46,442 --> 00:40:47,260
I've been really

1117
00:40:47,636 --> 00:40:48,830
hoping to get to as well.

1118
00:40:50,422 --> 00:40:50,922
So

1119
00:40:51,714 --> 00:40:54,514
If you say any structure that human beings

1120
00:40:54,514 --> 00:40:55,335
agree to

1121
00:40:55,795 --> 00:40:57,554
with a set of rules and governance,

1122
00:40:58,528 --> 00:40:59,507
and clear

1123
00:41:00,364 --> 00:41:02,141
carrots and sticks rewards and

1124
00:41:02,838 --> 00:41:03,157
wax,

1125
00:41:04,754 --> 00:41:06,270
then a country is that.

1126
00:41:08,361 --> 00:41:08,600
Yes?

1127
00:41:09,319 --> 00:41:11,394
Yeah. So America is a game.

1128
00:41:12,353 --> 00:41:15,227
Yeah. France is a game, Saudi Arabia is

1129
00:41:15,227 --> 00:41:15,626
a game.

1130
00:41:16,756 --> 00:41:17,865
Yeah. North Korea is a game.

1131
00:41:18,578 --> 00:41:21,431
Right. So if you look at it that

1132
00:41:21,431 --> 00:41:21,748
way,

1133
00:41:22,381 --> 00:41:23,253
and you say okay.

1134
00:41:24,380 --> 00:41:25,969
We hear all this stuff about all this...

1135
00:41:26,207 --> 00:41:28,431
All the problems in America and yada yada

1136
00:41:28,431 --> 00:41:28,931
yada,

1137
00:41:29,385 --> 00:41:29,885
and

1138
00:41:30,497 --> 00:41:32,086
we need to get after all of it.

1139
00:41:32,819 --> 00:41:33,778
Does a long list.

1140
00:41:34,497 --> 00:41:35,376
Right? We know the list,

1141
00:41:36,096 --> 00:41:38,014
and most good people agree. They may not

1142
00:41:38,014 --> 00:41:39,532
agree on solutions, but they agree what the

1143
00:41:39,532 --> 00:41:40,092
problems are.

1144
00:41:40,891 --> 00:41:41,391
So

1145
00:41:41,850 --> 00:41:42,090
now,

1146
00:41:42,901 --> 00:41:44,493
Let's say that's gonna happen and we all

1147
00:41:44,493 --> 00:41:45,948
wanna be good people and we wanna

1148
00:41:46,323 --> 00:41:49,347
improve America for everyone. And at the same

1149
00:41:49,347 --> 00:41:49,506
time,

1150
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:51,217
That kind of progress

1151
00:41:51,835 --> 00:41:54,388
at scale generally takes a lot of time.

1152
00:41:55,825 --> 00:41:57,261
So if I say, okay. Wait a minute.

1153
00:41:58,391 --> 00:41:59,581
If On 1 hand, I wanna be a

1154
00:41:59,581 --> 00:42:01,429
person who contributes to improving

1155
00:42:02,119 --> 00:42:03,309
our country in our world,

1156
00:42:03,864 --> 00:42:05,530
but the same time the world in the

1157
00:42:05,530 --> 00:42:05,768
country,

1158
00:42:06,338 --> 00:42:08,088
is the game that it is right now.

1159
00:42:09,122 --> 00:42:10,974
So what if I just accept the game

1160
00:42:11,509 --> 00:42:12,463
as it is now?

1161
00:42:13,750 --> 00:42:16,213
Figure out how to win in this game.

1162
00:42:17,246 --> 00:42:19,311
So that as I'm doing that, I can

1163
00:42:19,311 --> 00:42:20,820
try to make the game that I'm figuring

1164
00:42:20,820 --> 00:42:23,456
out and winning, may a little fair, a

1165
00:42:23,456 --> 00:42:26,100
little more just a little more whatever,

1166
00:42:26,632 --> 00:42:27,903
and we need a lot of little more,

1167
00:42:28,062 --> 00:42:29,253
and we need a lot a lot a

1168
00:42:29,253 --> 00:42:30,762
lot of more on stuff. Right?

1169
00:42:31,492 --> 00:42:33,878
Yeah. But I'm... Essentially, I'm gonna master the

1170
00:42:33,878 --> 00:42:34,378
game

1171
00:42:35,231 --> 00:42:37,060
to get to change the game.

1172
00:42:38,269 --> 00:42:38,509
Yeah.

1173
00:42:39,148 --> 00:42:40,906
As opposed to just bitch about the game.

1174
00:42:42,664 --> 00:42:44,502
So I think there's a danger here for

1175
00:42:44,502 --> 00:42:45,321
any democracy

1176
00:42:45,860 --> 00:42:46,315
if

1177
00:42:46,755 --> 00:42:49,954
1 player within it can change the rules.

1178
00:42:50,594 --> 00:42:50,835
Well,

1179
00:42:51,875 --> 00:42:53,155
this is how you get a desperate. Right?

1180
00:42:53,315 --> 00:42:55,714
Like, this is... This is dangerous.

1181
00:42:56,369 --> 00:42:57,510
There was a great

1182
00:42:58,050 --> 00:42:58,550
classic

1183
00:42:58,849 --> 00:43:01,730
psychologist, Jean P who would study how kids

1184
00:43:01,730 --> 00:43:02,550
played games

1185
00:43:03,170 --> 00:43:05,269
and how they kind of would

1186
00:43:05,664 --> 00:43:07,500
first, they would accept the rules that the

1187
00:43:07,500 --> 00:43:08,399
kind of adults

1188
00:43:09,416 --> 00:43:11,811
profess they were. And then over time, they

1189
00:43:11,811 --> 00:43:13,806
kind of renegotiate and talk to each other

1190
00:43:13,806 --> 00:43:16,370
and work out how the... How they want

1191
00:43:16,370 --> 00:43:17,723
the rules to be after they played the

1192
00:43:17,723 --> 00:43:19,018
game and kind of

1193
00:43:19,552 --> 00:43:20,825
thought about how things could be better.

1194
00:43:21,541 --> 00:43:24,023
So it was like, this collective decision. And

1195
00:43:24,103 --> 00:43:26,334
Pj thought of this is this perfect model

1196
00:43:26,334 --> 00:43:29,203
of how democracy should really work where we're

1197
00:43:29,203 --> 00:43:30,797
all playing a game together, and then we

1198
00:43:30,797 --> 00:43:31,297
agree

1199
00:43:31,688 --> 00:43:34,080
on that, like, we shouldn't take the rules

1200
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:34,580
as

1201
00:43:35,515 --> 00:43:37,509
handed down by God, but, like, that there's

1202
00:43:37,509 --> 00:43:38,009
something

1203
00:43:38,625 --> 00:43:39,900
by agreement we can change.

1204
00:43:40,635 --> 00:43:42,555
And so... And we're gonna do it with

1205
00:43:42,555 --> 00:43:44,235
civil dialogue and discourse,

1206
00:43:44,875 --> 00:43:45,755
not civil war.

1207
00:43:46,315 --> 00:43:48,315
Right. Right. We're gonna argue that We're gonna

1208
00:43:48,315 --> 00:43:50,166
yell. But that's as far as we're going,

1209
00:43:50,326 --> 00:43:51,204
and then we're vote. I.

1210
00:43:52,002 --> 00:43:53,278
Right. I certainly hope because that's a big

1211
00:43:53,278 --> 00:43:55,513
part of the agreement. Right. Like a very

1212
00:43:55,513 --> 00:43:57,283
big part of the agreement. Yeah. And that,

1213
00:43:57,442 --> 00:43:59,512
like, there isn't, like, 1 really big kid

1214
00:43:59,512 --> 00:44:01,661
who bullies the other kids to make them

1215
00:44:01,661 --> 00:44:03,652
accept the rules that they want. Like, that

1216
00:44:03,652 --> 00:44:04,709
it has to be this

1217
00:44:05,579 --> 00:44:08,539
collectively agreed upon thing. And so, ideally, you

1218
00:44:08,539 --> 00:44:10,719
know, this is something that we all

1219
00:44:11,980 --> 00:44:13,179
see is a game because I think that's

1220
00:44:13,179 --> 00:44:14,639
another problem is that

1221
00:44:15,190 --> 00:44:17,356
when there's this notion that

1222
00:44:18,125 --> 00:44:19,870
that, for example, the constitution is, like,

1223
00:44:21,615 --> 00:44:23,625
so sacred, and we cannot change a word

1224
00:44:23,625 --> 00:44:25,302
of it. Like, there were amendments for reason...

1225
00:44:25,461 --> 00:44:27,456
For reason right? Like it's it should be

1226
00:44:27,456 --> 00:44:28,036
a little

1227
00:44:28,574 --> 00:44:28,973
their car.

1228
00:44:29,931 --> 00:44:30,410
Amendments.

1229
00:44:30,744 --> 00:44:32,492
You know, Yes this is a side note.

1230
00:44:32,968 --> 00:44:35,034
When you're teaching people category design,

1231
00:44:35,987 --> 00:44:37,814
we talk a lot about the strategic use

1232
00:44:37,814 --> 00:44:38,552
of language.

1233
00:44:39,816 --> 00:44:41,748
Right? Because a d point

1234
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:44,668
language creates a d point in thinking,

1235
00:44:45,225 --> 00:44:47,532
which often creates a d point action.

1236
00:44:48,263 --> 00:44:49,081
And so

1237
00:44:49,456 --> 00:44:52,557
lang really matters. And so the funny thing

1238
00:44:52,557 --> 00:44:54,068
is we sort of had this a aha

1239
00:44:54,068 --> 00:44:54,386
which is,

1240
00:44:55,181 --> 00:44:57,249
people don't pay attention to the words.

1241
00:44:58,773 --> 00:44:59,487
So we say,

1242
00:45:00,678 --> 00:45:02,186
listen to the words.

1243
00:45:02,741 --> 00:45:05,122
Listen to the fucking words.

1244
00:45:06,010 --> 00:45:06,803
The amendments.

1245
00:45:07,437 --> 00:45:08,705
There's the constitution,

1246
00:45:10,053 --> 00:45:11,401
and it has amendments.

1247
00:45:12,114 --> 00:45:13,090
What's an amendment

1248
00:45:16,655 --> 00:45:17,052
Exactly.

1249
00:45:18,164 --> 00:45:19,674
So, yeah, If we had if we had

1250
00:45:19,674 --> 00:45:21,445
this kind of notion that

1251
00:45:22,153 --> 00:45:24,386
our society was something we could kinda play

1252
00:45:24,386 --> 00:45:26,061
with. And this is why it's so sad

1253
00:45:26,061 --> 00:45:28,793
that we've lost this playful of, like, carnival

1254
00:45:29,011 --> 00:45:29,511
or

1255
00:45:31,179 --> 00:45:33,414
you know, debt J or just like these

1256
00:45:33,414 --> 00:45:34,792
idea... These moments of

1257
00:45:35,729 --> 00:45:38,284
of wiping the slate clean, like, starting new,

1258
00:45:38,682 --> 00:45:39,901
trying something else

1259
00:45:41,092 --> 00:45:42,766
doing what we can to to make it

1260
00:45:42,766 --> 00:45:43,484
work for everyone.

1261
00:45:44,202 --> 00:45:46,196
It's really unfortunate that we're... We lost that

1262
00:45:46,196 --> 00:45:46,675
playful.

1263
00:45:47,153 --> 00:45:49,865
Yeah. It's interesting is you're talking, I'm thinking,

1264
00:45:50,438 --> 00:45:52,672
what when do we as a country come

1265
00:45:52,672 --> 00:45:52,991
together.

1266
00:45:54,666 --> 00:45:56,580
And we do do some playful things, you

1267
00:45:56,580 --> 00:45:56,660
know,

1268
00:45:57,617 --> 00:45:59,771
fourth of July is generally a playful thing.

1269
00:46:01,380 --> 00:46:04,114
You could argue depending on the family in

1270
00:46:04,331 --> 00:46:05,869
at the holidays. He's

1271
00:46:06,565 --> 00:46:09,458
in November December it's a playful. Thank me,

1272
00:46:10,644 --> 00:46:10,882
But,

1273
00:46:11,993 --> 00:46:13,976
even in a country like America that likes

1274
00:46:13,976 --> 00:46:16,039
to celebrate, I moved here from Canada, and

1275
00:46:16,118 --> 00:46:16,753
I was like, wow.

1276
00:46:17,962 --> 00:46:20,035
These fucking people love this country, and they

1277
00:46:20,035 --> 00:46:22,028
like to celebrate all the time and wave

1278
00:46:22,028 --> 00:46:25,139
flags. It was very overly celebratory. If you

1279
00:46:25,139 --> 00:46:26,905
asked the brits and stuff they'll yeah, they're

1280
00:46:26,905 --> 00:46:27,699
pretty much the same.

1281
00:46:29,048 --> 00:46:31,668
But interestingly enough, Yeah. There aren't those touchstone

1282
00:46:31,668 --> 00:46:33,255
touchdown. The other 1 that comes to mind,

1283
00:46:33,414 --> 00:46:34,922
of course, is the super bowl.

1284
00:46:36,694 --> 00:46:38,614
Yeah. That might be. I don't know. Is

1285
00:46:38,614 --> 00:46:39,335
that the biggest 1?

1286
00:46:41,414 --> 00:46:43,255
That's that's a big 1. I mean,

1287
00:46:44,388 --> 00:46:46,057
there's, like, more niche ones so, like, as

1288
00:46:46,057 --> 00:46:48,441
you mentioned, Bernie man, where that's... Their kind

1289
00:46:48,441 --> 00:46:50,826
people are trying to imagine what would be

1290
00:46:50,826 --> 00:46:51,723
like, if

1291
00:46:52,114 --> 00:46:54,510
in a post scarcity world. Of course, it's

1292
00:46:54,510 --> 00:46:56,987
it's very artificial and maybe that's part of

1293
00:46:56,987 --> 00:46:58,106
being, you know, what makes it a game,

1294
00:46:58,265 --> 00:46:58,505
I guess.

1295
00:46:59,873 --> 00:47:00,271
But, yeah.

1296
00:47:01,067 --> 00:47:02,657
So if I was somebody who said, hey,

1297
00:47:02,737 --> 00:47:04,328
look. Yes. There's a lot of changes I

1298
00:47:04,328 --> 00:47:05,282
wanna make to the game.

1299
00:47:06,570 --> 00:47:08,978
But I'm gonna invest more of myself

1300
00:47:09,432 --> 00:47:11,125
in winning the game

1301
00:47:11,817 --> 00:47:14,441
to, if you will, more powerfully be able

1302
00:47:14,441 --> 00:47:15,530
to change the game

1303
00:47:15,890 --> 00:47:17,650
as opposed to sitting here on the sidelines

1304
00:47:17,650 --> 00:47:18,789
throwing rocks and

1305
00:47:19,090 --> 00:47:20,449
being in a grumpy old man screaming and

1306
00:47:20,449 --> 00:47:21,250
get off my lemon.

1307
00:47:23,584 --> 00:47:25,422
So if I was gonna view, let's just

1308
00:47:25,422 --> 00:47:27,999
call it success in America by whatever

1309
00:47:28,457 --> 00:47:30,055
definition you have of success.

1310
00:47:31,108 --> 00:47:32,543
I was gonna view that as a game.

1311
00:47:32,942 --> 00:47:35,494
How might I think differently about if you

1312
00:47:35,494 --> 00:47:36,611
will, my life design?

1313
00:47:37,887 --> 00:47:39,722
I guess the the hard thing about that

1314
00:47:39,722 --> 00:47:40,222
is

1315
00:47:40,614 --> 00:47:43,185
you kind of implicitly have to take on

1316
00:47:43,243 --> 00:47:46,429
the values of success, like, what leads to

1317
00:47:46,429 --> 00:47:47,327
success in America

1318
00:47:48,037 --> 00:47:50,027
in order to get there. Like,

1319
00:47:50,743 --> 00:47:52,255
and I think a lot of people take

1320
00:47:52,255 --> 00:47:52,755
on

1321
00:47:53,449 --> 00:47:55,200
that notion and then kind of forget where

1322
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:56,713
they came from. Like, a lot of people

1323
00:47:56,713 --> 00:47:57,213
maybe

1324
00:47:57,603 --> 00:47:58,103
we'll,

1325
00:47:58,559 --> 00:47:59,914
like, claw their weights to the top and

1326
00:47:59,914 --> 00:48:01,507
then, like, close or, like, pull up the

1327
00:48:01,507 --> 00:48:03,737
ladder behind them. Because it's it's hard to

1328
00:48:03,737 --> 00:48:04,237
not

1329
00:48:04,867 --> 00:48:06,936
think in this kind of biased way, if

1330
00:48:06,936 --> 00:48:07,436
you

1331
00:48:07,892 --> 00:48:09,347
made it to the top of America

1332
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:10,620
that

1333
00:48:11,155 --> 00:48:13,406
anyone could do it because that's

1334
00:48:14,513 --> 00:48:17,138
clearly not true because if, you know, if

1335
00:48:17,138 --> 00:48:18,013
everyone could do it, they would do it

1336
00:48:18,092 --> 00:48:20,160
Right? Like, it's it's not

1337
00:48:21,274 --> 00:48:22,251
it's it's a

1338
00:48:23,197 --> 00:48:24,705
small piece of the pie. Like, there's... There's

1339
00:48:24,705 --> 00:48:25,760
just no way that

1340
00:48:26,768 --> 00:48:27,507
everyone can

1341
00:48:27,959 --> 00:48:29,309
be the top 1 percent.

1342
00:48:30,182 --> 00:48:31,555
So I think

1343
00:48:32,744 --> 00:48:33,244
the

1344
00:48:33,942 --> 00:48:36,019
kind of advice or the the thinking I

1345
00:48:36,019 --> 00:48:38,358
would have is is it's a very noble

1346
00:48:38,417 --> 00:48:40,195
idea to that, like, you could

1347
00:48:40,588 --> 00:48:41,945
change the rules once you got to the

1348
00:48:41,945 --> 00:48:44,099
top, but getting to the top will change

1349
00:48:44,099 --> 00:48:47,391
you. Right? Like... So finding ways of

1350
00:48:48,265 --> 00:48:50,025
like, I think this is a... Something in

1351
00:48:50,025 --> 00:48:51,545
any game is that we can start to

1352
00:48:51,545 --> 00:48:52,204
kind of

1353
00:48:52,824 --> 00:48:53,324
implicitly

1354
00:48:53,704 --> 00:48:56,757
accept the values of the game maker Like,

1355
00:48:56,837 --> 00:48:57,868
when we play Monopoly,

1356
00:48:58,582 --> 00:48:59,082
we

1357
00:48:59,455 --> 00:49:01,780
have to act like a ruthless capitalist

1358
00:49:02,470 --> 00:49:03,264
to to win.

1359
00:49:04,074 --> 00:49:06,307
Even if we're, like, a peaceful hippie. So

1360
00:49:06,307 --> 00:49:06,706
we, like,

1361
00:49:08,141 --> 00:49:10,135
stab our sisters in the back, we we

1362
00:49:10,135 --> 00:49:12,369
burn bridges with with parents. Like, it's just...

1363
00:49:12,528 --> 00:49:13,666
It can be really

1364
00:49:14,059 --> 00:49:15,817
brutal or like a game like Mafia where

1365
00:49:15,817 --> 00:49:17,415
you're like, lying to your friends. Like, I've

1366
00:49:17,415 --> 00:49:19,492
seen people cry and get really upset at

1367
00:49:19,492 --> 00:49:21,784
games like this. So these games kind of

1368
00:49:22,381 --> 00:49:25,165
you know, within their con, we are abandoning

1369
00:49:25,165 --> 00:49:27,233
our own values to take on the the

1370
00:49:27,233 --> 00:49:28,029
values of the game.

1371
00:49:29,078 --> 00:49:31,306
But when it's a life game, Like, when

1372
00:49:31,306 --> 00:49:32,658
you're playing the game of life, you have

1373
00:49:32,658 --> 00:49:33,954
to be really careful to

1374
00:49:35,284 --> 00:49:37,512
find where your values really lie.

1375
00:49:38,004 --> 00:49:40,228
And whether it's worth abandoning them to win

1376
00:49:40,228 --> 00:49:40,967
this game

1377
00:49:41,579 --> 00:49:43,565
because because the game can be brutal.

1378
00:49:44,519 --> 00:49:45,711
Okay. Awesome.

1379
00:49:47,077 --> 00:49:47,872
So I agree.

1380
00:49:50,338 --> 00:49:50,838
And

1381
00:49:52,247 --> 00:49:53,224
I would push

1382
00:49:54,330 --> 00:49:54,886
the premise.

1383
00:49:55,601 --> 00:49:55,839
Mh.

1384
00:49:56,793 --> 00:49:59,811
It's possible to win in American life.

1385
00:50:01,497 --> 00:50:04,366
And not sell yourself out to a set

1386
00:50:04,366 --> 00:50:06,597
of beliefs. And I think we have many

1387
00:50:06,597 --> 00:50:08,271
examples in many domains.

1388
00:50:09,405 --> 00:50:10,525
From incredible,

1389
00:50:11,164 --> 00:50:11,965
community leaders,

1390
00:50:12,525 --> 00:50:13,244
religious leaders,

1391
00:50:13,804 --> 00:50:14,304
entrepreneurs,

1392
00:50:14,925 --> 00:50:15,965
business leaders,

1393
00:50:16,539 --> 00:50:18,076
people who have committed to be

1394
00:50:18,931 --> 00:50:20,128
servants of our country,

1395
00:50:20,846 --> 00:50:21,803
in the military,

1396
00:50:23,079 --> 00:50:24,355
etcetera and serving government,

1397
00:50:26,364 --> 00:50:27,424
And so I think

1398
00:50:30,041 --> 00:50:31,180
being successful

1399
00:50:32,118 --> 00:50:34,616
and being a sort of moral sellout,

1400
00:50:35,649 --> 00:50:36,766
is a false premise.

1401
00:50:37,324 --> 00:50:39,158
That's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. I totally

1402
00:50:39,158 --> 00:50:41,391
agree with that. Yeah. And look, you know,

1403
00:50:41,950 --> 00:50:44,922
it's funny how... It's it's weird in America,

1404
00:50:45,634 --> 00:50:46,033
that

1405
00:50:47,550 --> 00:50:49,545
winning is is despise now.

1406
00:50:51,381 --> 00:50:52,658
You know. So if you look at... Let's

1407
00:50:52,658 --> 00:50:54,590
just look at 2 billionaires everybody. Like to

1408
00:50:54,590 --> 00:50:56,590
shit on Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk.

1409
00:50:57,150 --> 00:50:59,710
Mh. And, look, I'm not here to defend

1410
00:50:59,710 --> 00:51:01,630
everything they've done. I don't monitor what these

1411
00:51:01,630 --> 00:51:03,309
guys do. I don't really give a shit

1412
00:51:03,309 --> 00:51:05,895
that much. It's What I will tell you

1413
00:51:06,190 --> 00:51:08,178
is to the best of my knowledge over

1414
00:51:08,337 --> 00:51:08,734
Covid,

1415
00:51:09,609 --> 00:51:12,327
Amazon hired over half a million people. Might

1416
00:51:12,327 --> 00:51:13,838
have even scratched up to a million. It

1417
00:51:13,838 --> 00:51:15,983
was a giant number of people. And I

1418
00:51:15,983 --> 00:51:17,175
know people who know Jeff,

1419
00:51:18,209 --> 00:51:20,037
and I know for a fact from people

1420
00:51:20,037 --> 00:51:22,683
who know him. So... But close close second

1421
00:51:22,683 --> 00:51:22,922
hand.

1422
00:51:23,562 --> 00:51:24,920
That when Covid hit that, guy I said,

1423
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:26,598
all our business plans are out the window.

1424
00:51:27,477 --> 00:51:29,395
Let's figure out exactly what people need,

1425
00:51:29,967 --> 00:51:32,668
and it's battle stations, everything's Covid.

1426
00:51:33,144 --> 00:51:35,447
Mh. And if we had to have gone

1427
00:51:35,447 --> 00:51:36,265
through Covid

1428
00:51:37,433 --> 00:51:37,933
without

1429
00:51:38,307 --> 00:51:38,624
that,

1430
00:51:39,434 --> 00:51:40,714
Yeah. Where the fuck would we have been.

1431
00:51:40,954 --> 00:51:42,175
Right? Now, Musk

1432
00:51:42,954 --> 00:51:44,875
is he nuts as he behave like a

1433
00:51:44,875 --> 00:51:45,434
this or that...

1434
00:51:46,315 --> 00:51:46,554
Sure.

1435
00:51:47,129 --> 00:51:49,766
But sort of what do you expect the

1436
00:51:49,766 --> 00:51:52,083
guy who's flying to space and brewing under

1437
00:51:52,083 --> 00:51:55,690
the earth and driverless cars and neural link

1438
00:51:55,690 --> 00:51:57,838
things to the fucking satellites and the inter...

1439
00:51:57,998 --> 00:51:59,510
Like, what do you expect this guy to

1440
00:51:59,510 --> 00:52:02,137
be? Like, a button down blue shirt wearing

1441
00:52:02,137 --> 00:52:04,388
khaki pants wearing the Mckinsey consultant

1442
00:52:04,777 --> 00:52:06,600
Of course, he's gonna be a wild man.

1443
00:52:07,155 --> 00:52:07,655
So

1444
00:52:09,217 --> 00:52:11,833
I I just... I think it's interesting that,

1445
00:52:12,724 --> 00:52:14,482
there's so much hate put there. And look,

1446
00:52:14,802 --> 00:52:17,219
we can have all the conversations around wealth

1447
00:52:17,518 --> 00:52:19,756
distribution and value creation. And I think those

1448
00:52:19,756 --> 00:52:22,326
are all good conversations. But the reality is

1449
00:52:22,326 --> 00:52:23,464
we have some extraordinary

1450
00:52:24,878 --> 00:52:27,293
entrepreneurial leaders in our country. And

1451
00:52:27,909 --> 00:52:29,925
I think we owe a debt grad gratitude

1452
00:52:29,983 --> 00:52:30,461
and, yes,

1453
00:52:31,592 --> 00:52:34,872
radical oversight and radical challenge and absolute power

1454
00:52:35,007 --> 00:52:36,994
cr absolutely, and we need to be all

1455
00:52:36,994 --> 00:52:38,979
over them, and we need regulation on Ai

1456
00:52:38,979 --> 00:52:41,139
and end in. As you well know, Kelly.

1457
00:52:42,093 --> 00:52:43,762
Multiple things can be true at the same

1458
00:52:43,762 --> 00:52:46,328
time. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. So

1459
00:52:46,781 --> 00:52:49,188
let's talk maybe a little bit about

1460
00:52:49,667 --> 00:52:50,167
family.

1461
00:52:51,342 --> 00:52:52,777
So if everything's a game,

1462
00:52:54,452 --> 00:52:55,670
then a family

1463
00:52:56,047 --> 00:52:58,539
construct is a game. Right? And every family

1464
00:52:58,539 --> 00:53:00,960
is slightly different than what it values and

1465
00:53:01,260 --> 00:53:03,420
how it operates and who the leaders are

1466
00:53:03,420 --> 00:53:05,680
and who the supporters are and

1467
00:53:06,074 --> 00:53:08,651
etcetera, and there's always there's always a moron

1468
00:53:08,790 --> 00:53:10,788
and there's always at least 1 if not

1469
00:53:10,788 --> 00:53:12,646
evil villain, there's always 1

1470
00:53:13,119 --> 00:53:14,957
sort of bad apple if not full on,

1471
00:53:15,436 --> 00:53:17,514
apple etcetera, etcetera. And so... Great.

1472
00:53:18,233 --> 00:53:18,893
How does

1473
00:53:19,512 --> 00:53:21,430
designing a family and living in a family

1474
00:53:21,430 --> 00:53:23,437
look through a cat... I through the lens

1475
00:53:23,437 --> 00:53:23,937
of

1476
00:53:24,393 --> 00:53:24,711
games.

1477
00:53:25,588 --> 00:53:27,420
That's interesting. There's is... I think a book

1478
00:53:27,420 --> 00:53:30,606
from the fifties that A psychologist wrote where...

1479
00:53:31,338 --> 00:53:32,848
He... I think it's called, like the games

1480
00:53:32,848 --> 00:53:34,439
we play or something. It's about all of

1481
00:53:34,439 --> 00:53:34,939
these

1482
00:53:35,472 --> 00:53:36,211
kind of

1483
00:53:36,824 --> 00:53:40,084
categories of games in relationships where... Yeah. There's

1484
00:53:40,084 --> 00:53:43,364
always, like, it's almost like theatrical tropes that

1485
00:53:43,364 --> 00:53:45,674
people fall into. And, you know, all these

1486
00:53:45,674 --> 00:53:46,413
things are

1487
00:53:47,188 --> 00:53:47,688
ultimately

1488
00:53:48,064 --> 00:53:50,237
about as good as horoscope as, like, really

1489
00:53:51,029 --> 00:53:52,967
describing people. Right? Like, there's

1490
00:53:54,065 --> 00:53:56,382
there's no real categories that people could fall

1491
00:53:56,382 --> 00:53:56,622
into.

1492
00:53:57,262 --> 00:53:58,300
Ultimately, I would say,

1493
00:53:59,192 --> 00:54:00,301
game only goes so far. So, like,

1494
00:54:01,172 --> 00:54:03,099
you could probably find ways of game,

1495
00:54:04,263 --> 00:54:07,858
like chores or, like, having fun, like, bringing

1496
00:54:07,858 --> 00:54:09,956
as much play as possible into

1497
00:54:10,814 --> 00:54:12,492
a family dynamic. And I think there's something

1498
00:54:12,492 --> 00:54:15,070
really important here to distinguish about

1499
00:54:16,579 --> 00:54:19,208
kind of generative creative play where there's, you

1500
00:54:19,208 --> 00:54:20,266
know, people are

1501
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:22,449
trying new things out

1502
00:54:22,886 --> 00:54:25,028
trying to break a dynamic that has been

1503
00:54:25,028 --> 00:54:25,346
fixed,

1504
00:54:26,140 --> 00:54:28,758
and, like, is stuck, and maybe, like, like,

1505
00:54:28,917 --> 00:54:30,505
as you say, like, people feel like they've

1506
00:54:30,505 --> 00:54:31,005
been

1507
00:54:31,554 --> 00:54:33,715
pigeon hold into these particular roles? Like, how

1508
00:54:33,715 --> 00:54:35,715
do we let people get out of that

1509
00:54:35,715 --> 00:54:38,114
because nobody is the more on nobody is

1510
00:54:38,114 --> 00:54:38,614
the

1511
00:54:39,487 --> 00:54:42,519
blank in a relationship rate. It's it's... We

1512
00:54:42,519 --> 00:54:44,115
do fall into these sometimes these,

1513
00:54:47,324 --> 00:54:48,364
I don't know the right word, but like

1514
00:54:48,364 --> 00:54:48,605
tropes.

1515
00:54:50,445 --> 00:54:50,945
So

1516
00:54:51,804 --> 00:54:54,364
the important distinction between this, like, generative play

1517
00:54:54,364 --> 00:54:54,864
and

1518
00:54:55,418 --> 00:54:57,113
rule bound games where

1519
00:54:58,685 --> 00:54:59,822
you know, where

1520
00:55:01,394 --> 00:55:02,293
maybe not

1521
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:04,911
meeting the world as it is, where we're,

1522
00:55:04,990 --> 00:55:08,490
like, more focused on winning or whatever.

1523
00:55:08,889 --> 00:55:09,389
So

1524
00:55:09,938 --> 00:55:12,089
I think with children, probably the most important

1525
00:55:12,089 --> 00:55:14,240
thing is this idea of, like, generative play

1526
00:55:14,240 --> 00:55:14,740
and

1527
00:55:15,117 --> 00:55:17,826
gentleness and connection and and seeing games as

1528
00:55:17,826 --> 00:55:20,070
as a form of connection. Like, That's ultimately

1529
00:55:20,070 --> 00:55:21,583
even with a game like a competitive game

1530
00:55:21,583 --> 00:55:23,572
like chess, you're ultimately like trying to have

1531
00:55:23,572 --> 00:55:25,005
a good time with the other player. Like,

1532
00:55:25,084 --> 00:55:26,597
you're you're here cooperating.

1533
00:55:27,169 --> 00:55:27,647
So

1534
00:55:28,364 --> 00:55:29,878
things interrupt you, but 1 of the craziest

1535
00:55:29,878 --> 00:55:31,870
things about Martial Arts. U.

1536
00:55:32,667 --> 00:55:34,181
Were you and I to spa?

1537
00:55:34,835 --> 00:55:35,074
Yeah.

1538
00:55:36,275 --> 00:55:38,594
At the end of the spa session, the

1539
00:55:38,594 --> 00:55:39,094
likelihood

1540
00:55:39,474 --> 00:55:40,614
that we would be

1541
00:55:41,234 --> 00:55:42,650
overwhelmed in in almost

1542
00:55:43,327 --> 00:55:46,196
uncontrollable way to hug each other, is very

1543
00:55:46,196 --> 00:55:49,144
high. That's amazing. And it's the weirdest thing.

1544
00:55:49,623 --> 00:55:51,865
Now, of course, spa, you're not really trying

1545
00:55:51,865 --> 00:55:54,169
to hurt each other. But if you watch

1546
00:55:54,169 --> 00:55:56,155
a if you're a fight fan at all.

1547
00:55:56,632 --> 00:55:58,936
It happens at the end of many.

1548
00:55:59,588 --> 00:56:00,088
Many

1549
00:56:00,626 --> 00:56:03,601
fights, and many fighters go on to become

1550
00:56:03,819 --> 00:56:06,134
extraordinary friends. The story happens over and over

1551
00:56:06,134 --> 00:56:08,231
and over again. Wow. And so

1552
00:56:08,703 --> 00:56:09,601
even that

1553
00:56:10,615 --> 00:56:12,686
where you're literally trying to knock the other

1554
00:56:12,686 --> 00:56:13,563
person on unconscious.

1555
00:56:15,235 --> 00:56:17,320
And probably said horrible things about their mother

1556
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:18,594
and sister before the fight.

1557
00:56:20,344 --> 00:56:21,061
That happens.

1558
00:56:21,936 --> 00:56:25,255
That's beautiful. That's amazing. And that's exactly what

1559
00:56:25,454 --> 00:56:27,844
you know, wrestling in animals. It's like it's

1560
00:56:27,844 --> 00:56:29,835
a kind of form of social bonding.

1561
00:56:30,393 --> 00:56:32,955
It sure is with me and bean dog

1562
00:56:32,955 --> 00:56:34,623
or cat who identifies as a dog.

1563
00:56:36,131 --> 00:56:37,640
Now, I did wanna touch on at least

1564
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:39,807
1 more thing, which is sometimes

1565
00:56:40,260 --> 00:56:42,184
our when we hear the word game and

1566
00:56:42,184 --> 00:56:43,456
we think about game,

1567
00:56:45,206 --> 00:56:45,706
it

1568
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:47,750
sits in a different light,

1569
00:56:48,386 --> 00:56:49,897
like a manipulation light.

1570
00:56:50,629 --> 00:56:52,940
Like I'm rigging the game or I'm... Yes.

1571
00:56:53,259 --> 00:56:55,911
I'm... I've got my thumb on the scale

1572
00:56:56,049 --> 00:56:58,655
or I'm I'm I'm trapping you, and I'm

1573
00:56:58,934 --> 00:57:00,772
I'm red pill you or blue pill. I

1574
00:57:00,772 --> 00:57:01,971
don't know which 1 it is, all those

1575
00:57:01,971 --> 00:57:05,007
idiots talk about. But that a game sorta

1576
00:57:05,007 --> 00:57:06,465
equals some kind of a rigged

1577
00:57:07,099 --> 00:57:11,175
manipulative system to somebody's advantage to the disadvantage

1578
00:57:11,175 --> 00:57:12,314
of of many

1579
00:57:13,093 --> 00:57:16,230
versus the other lens, which is game

1580
00:57:16,784 --> 00:57:17,420
as play.

1581
00:57:18,375 --> 00:57:20,126
And there are some games that are just

1582
00:57:20,126 --> 00:57:21,637
meant to be playful,

1583
00:57:23,229 --> 00:57:25,059
celeste handling the the reporter,

1584
00:57:26,429 --> 00:57:28,269
shared with me a an interesting thing. She's...

1585
00:57:28,510 --> 00:57:30,289
She compared a conversation

1586
00:57:30,750 --> 00:57:32,429
to a game of catch at the beach.

1587
00:57:33,802 --> 00:57:35,390
And the purpose of a game of catch

1588
00:57:35,390 --> 00:57:37,320
at the beach or Frisbee at the beach

1589
00:57:37,931 --> 00:57:39,543
is if you and I are playing Frisbee,

1590
00:57:40,234 --> 00:57:42,219
my objective is for you to catch the

1591
00:57:42,219 --> 00:57:42,696
frisbee.

1592
00:57:43,108 --> 00:57:44,458
I'm I'm trying to throw it to you.

1593
00:57:44,855 --> 00:57:46,522
Yeah. And vice versa amount, maybe I'm trying

1594
00:57:46,522 --> 00:57:47,554
to do it in a funny way or

1595
00:57:47,554 --> 00:57:48,983
this or that or the other. But, you

1596
00:57:48,983 --> 00:57:50,571
know, or if I toss you a ball

1597
00:57:50,571 --> 00:57:52,729
or playing catch with baseball. I want you

1598
00:57:52,729 --> 00:57:53,682
to catch the ball.

1599
00:57:54,555 --> 00:57:56,143
So that there's game is play,

1600
00:57:56,699 --> 00:57:57,596
and there's game

1601
00:57:58,286 --> 00:57:58,525
manipulation.

1602
00:58:00,207 --> 00:58:02,271
How might I think about those things? And

1603
00:58:02,271 --> 00:58:04,891
particularly when I look at the world or

1604
00:58:04,891 --> 00:58:07,923
games or any kind of a system, be

1605
00:58:07,923 --> 00:58:09,539
it a political system business,

1606
00:58:10,632 --> 00:58:11,031
etcetera.

1607
00:58:11,668 --> 00:58:11,907
Yeah.

1608
00:58:12,863 --> 00:58:13,363
So,

1609
00:58:14,058 --> 00:58:16,623
yeah, there's... Certainly all of these ideas of

1610
00:58:16,623 --> 00:58:18,296
gaming the system. And and it's... In many

1611
00:58:18,296 --> 00:58:20,129
ways, we're kind of incentivized. So, like, so

1612
00:58:20,129 --> 00:58:22,541
for example, those Google who are

1613
00:58:23,094 --> 00:58:24,855
starting new products. Like, they're just doing their

1614
00:58:24,855 --> 00:58:27,414
job. Like, they're not trying to create products

1615
00:58:27,414 --> 00:58:29,815
that are gonna fail, like, eventually, they're trying

1616
00:58:29,815 --> 00:58:30,429
to make

1617
00:58:30,867 --> 00:58:32,695
of get a promotion and do good work

1618
00:58:32,695 --> 00:58:35,263
and whatever. So it's it's not like they're

1619
00:58:35,637 --> 00:58:38,340
they're they're working within the incentives. Don't but

1620
00:58:38,340 --> 00:58:39,851
don't blame the player, blame the game.

1621
00:58:40,744 --> 00:58:42,582
Right. Well, and in many ways, yes. And

1622
00:58:42,742 --> 00:58:45,459
I think seeing games as, like, yes, they

1623
00:58:45,459 --> 00:58:47,936
can be rigged, but also, ultimately, they're... They

1624
00:58:47,936 --> 00:58:49,375
should be rule based. Right? Like, and that's

1625
00:58:49,375 --> 00:58:51,950
something that's really important is that, like, we

1626
00:58:51,950 --> 00:58:52,450
all

1627
00:58:53,230 --> 00:58:54,210
believe that

1628
00:58:54,510 --> 00:58:55,950
the game should be fair. Like, this is

1629
00:58:55,950 --> 00:58:57,410
a pretty kind of p

1630
00:58:57,789 --> 00:59:00,136
belief. That there's this sense of fairness

1631
00:59:00,670 --> 00:59:02,420
that we should all be behold into the

1632
00:59:02,420 --> 00:59:04,250
rules in the same way. There should be,

1633
00:59:04,409 --> 00:59:04,909
like

1634
00:59:05,539 --> 00:59:07,460
a dual system for, like, this person who

1635
00:59:07,460 --> 00:59:08,819
follows the roles or this person who follows

1636
00:59:08,819 --> 00:59:09,059
the rules.

1637
00:59:10,099 --> 00:59:12,260
And so there's this kind of intuitive sense

1638
00:59:12,260 --> 00:59:14,351
of there should be fairness. And so we

1639
00:59:14,351 --> 00:59:14,851
can

1640
00:59:15,708 --> 00:59:18,262
figure out, like, we can use mathematical tools

1641
00:59:18,262 --> 00:59:20,337
or look at the rules in the system

1642
00:59:20,337 --> 00:59:23,453
and see, are they unfairly benefiting somebody over

1643
00:59:23,453 --> 00:59:24,484
another, and hopefully,

1644
00:59:25,119 --> 00:59:27,499
you know, change that. Like, a game ultimately,

1645
00:59:27,658 --> 00:59:29,665
you know, game design is being used for

1646
00:59:30,053 --> 00:59:32,515
like, designing new voting systems and designing, like,

1647
00:59:32,912 --> 00:59:34,660
economic markets and all all kinds of important

1648
00:59:34,660 --> 00:59:34,898
things.

1649
00:59:35,612 --> 00:59:36,112
And

1650
00:59:36,486 --> 00:59:39,521
the issue is the this can be great

1651
00:59:39,521 --> 00:59:41,351
because we can use them to design, like,

1652
00:59:41,749 --> 00:59:44,556
rational markets that makes sense, but they don't

1653
00:59:45,503 --> 00:59:47,414
make it so that we don't need, like,

1654
00:59:48,450 --> 00:59:51,237
regulations and judges and, like, people acting morally.

1655
00:59:51,476 --> 00:59:53,308
Like, we can't... There's no way of making

1656
00:59:53,308 --> 00:59:53,967
a game

1657
00:59:54,358 --> 00:59:56,026
that is like, impossible to be cheated at.

1658
00:59:56,185 --> 00:59:58,411
Like, it's... There's always gonna be cheater. There's

1659
00:59:58,411 --> 01:00:00,476
always gonna be somebody with, like, their thumb

1660
01:00:00,476 --> 01:00:01,294
on the scale

1661
01:00:02,244 --> 01:00:04,001
But if we kind of know the rules

1662
01:00:04,001 --> 01:00:05,360
and collectively agree on the rules,

1663
01:00:06,558 --> 01:00:08,476
that is a kind of transparent way of...

1664
01:00:09,195 --> 01:00:09,435
Yes.

1665
01:00:10,168 --> 01:00:13,360
Everyone getting to examine how what the outcome

1666
01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:15,195
of the game is and who's being unfairly

1667
01:00:15,195 --> 01:00:15,994
benefited, You know?

1668
01:00:17,191 --> 01:00:17,350
Yeah.

1669
01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:19,907
Well, let me see... I'm gonna say this

1670
01:00:19,907 --> 01:00:21,494
like it is, but, I mean, it like

1671
01:00:21,494 --> 01:00:21,970
a question.

1672
01:00:22,526 --> 01:00:24,851
Our faith in humanity is restored

1673
01:00:25,799 --> 01:00:29,475
when even somebody who is incredibly celebrated and

1674
01:00:29,475 --> 01:00:29,975
loved

1675
01:00:30,674 --> 01:00:33,012
is exposed as a cheater, you know, Lance

1676
01:00:33,072 --> 01:00:34,750
armstrong by way of example. Oh, yeah.

1677
01:00:35,402 --> 01:00:36,832
Right? I mean, I don't know there was

1678
01:00:36,832 --> 01:00:38,896
a more beloved person in America.

1679
01:00:39,452 --> 01:00:40,961
He was certainly way up there.

1680
01:00:41,596 --> 01:00:43,519
You know, and as a cancer survive, ver

1681
01:00:43,519 --> 01:00:45,596
and the whole thing. I... We we all

1682
01:00:45,596 --> 01:00:46,875
loved him. And then,

1683
01:00:48,153 --> 01:00:48,653
and

1684
01:00:49,431 --> 01:00:50,630
he doesn't come back from that,

1685
01:00:51,444 --> 01:00:51,684
Right.

1686
01:00:52,403 --> 01:00:52,722
Never.

1687
01:00:54,081 --> 01:00:54,960
Yeah. Ever.

1688
01:00:55,759 --> 01:00:55,999
Yeah.

1689
01:00:57,038 --> 01:00:57,857
It's fascinating

1690
01:00:58,556 --> 01:00:59,535
that that

1691
01:01:00,169 --> 01:01:00,669
the

1692
01:01:01,207 --> 01:01:01,707
pe

1693
01:01:02,246 --> 01:01:03,625
is so severe

1694
01:01:04,323 --> 01:01:06,400
and yet it is so s still.

1695
01:01:07,855 --> 01:01:10,515
Right. Yeah. Absolutely. It's kind of

1696
01:01:12,335 --> 01:01:12,835
it's

1697
01:01:13,215 --> 01:01:15,547
it's funny Like, I think in ancient ruins.

1698
01:01:15,707 --> 01:01:17,304
So, like, as old as, like, as far

1699
01:01:17,304 --> 01:01:19,618
back as we find dice, we also find

1700
01:01:19,618 --> 01:01:22,251
way to dice. It's just kind of part

1701
01:01:22,251 --> 01:01:22,751
of

1702
01:01:23,224 --> 01:01:24,122
Are you shitting?

1703
01:01:24,818 --> 01:01:25,057
Yeah.

1704
01:01:26,652 --> 01:01:27,472
That's crazy.

1705
01:01:28,327 --> 01:01:28,567
Yeah.

1706
01:01:30,241 --> 01:01:31,437
You know, the other thing I think of,

1707
01:01:32,730 --> 01:01:34,329
been lucky enough to get to know Jim

1708
01:01:34,489 --> 01:01:35,530
Campbell a little bit.

1709
01:01:36,329 --> 01:01:37,849
He was the guy who wrote made off

1710
01:01:37,849 --> 01:01:40,010
talks, which is sort of the definitive made

1711
01:01:40,010 --> 01:01:42,498
off book, and He's a fascinating guy.

1712
01:01:43,135 --> 01:01:45,047
And 1 of the things he makes really

1713
01:01:45,047 --> 01:01:47,358
clear in his work about made that is

1714
01:01:47,358 --> 01:01:47,858
so

1715
01:01:48,569 --> 01:01:49,289
like, it takes...

1716
01:01:50,009 --> 01:01:52,170
I think him as a character or up

1717
01:01:52,170 --> 01:01:54,489
to a another level of fascination is made

1718
01:01:54,489 --> 01:01:56,029
of ran 2 businesses.

1719
01:01:57,702 --> 01:01:59,608
1 that was a hundred percent clean.

1720
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:02,626
And 1 that was a hundred percent dirty,

1721
01:02:03,182 --> 01:02:05,190
and they were not... I mean, they were

1722
01:02:05,405 --> 01:02:06,437
connected but not.

1723
01:02:07,569 --> 01:02:09,007
Right? That is to say there were many

1724
01:02:09,007 --> 01:02:10,366
and they were on different floors,

1725
01:02:10,845 --> 01:02:12,763
and so I forget the floor numbers or

1726
01:02:12,763 --> 01:02:14,362
whatever. But if you were on the floor

1727
01:02:14,362 --> 01:02:15,661
with the legit business.

1728
01:02:16,853 --> 01:02:18,847
The likelihood you didn't know there was an

1729
01:02:18,847 --> 01:02:22,276
a an business on the floor above or

1730
01:02:22,276 --> 01:02:25,387
below you was actually high. It was clean

1731
01:02:25,387 --> 01:02:26,025
as a whistle.

1732
01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:29,239
Boy. And so it's just this fascinating thing

1733
01:02:29,239 --> 01:02:30,219
that you could have,

1734
01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:31,739
you know, that

1735
01:02:33,653 --> 01:02:36,539
that 2 views of life and the game

1736
01:02:36,914 --> 01:02:38,028
in the same person.

1737
01:02:40,016 --> 01:02:40,255
Yeah.

1738
01:02:41,304 --> 01:02:42,577
And also the other thing you made me

1739
01:02:42,577 --> 01:02:44,884
think of is, I think you also just

1740
01:02:44,884 --> 01:02:46,634
explained a lot about Crypto.

1741
01:02:48,623 --> 01:02:49,123
Because

1742
01:02:49,592 --> 01:02:50,569
who are

1743
01:02:51,101 --> 01:02:53,246
many of the biggest champions of Crypto,

1744
01:02:54,199 --> 01:02:57,139
typically younger men who grew up playing video

1745
01:02:57,139 --> 01:02:57,639
games

1746
01:02:58,106 --> 01:02:59,930
and they view Crypto as a video game.

1747
01:03:00,564 --> 01:03:02,784
Oh, yeah. Right? That's not a stretch.

1748
01:03:04,131 --> 01:03:05,162
Yeah. I mean, I think...

1749
01:03:06,692 --> 01:03:07,649
Bitcoin kind of, like,

1750
01:03:08,846 --> 01:03:10,601
has a lot of people look at it

1751
01:03:10,601 --> 01:03:11,958
and they're like, well, why does it have

1752
01:03:11,958 --> 01:03:13,256
any value? And then

1753
01:03:13,647 --> 01:03:15,787
the crypto people are, like, well, why does

1754
01:03:15,787 --> 01:03:18,006
money have value? It's all a collective solution

1755
01:03:18,006 --> 01:03:20,146
anyway. So why not, like, have 1 that's

1756
01:03:20,146 --> 01:03:22,386
kind of has some kind of proof of

1757
01:03:22,386 --> 01:03:25,012
work or some something that's time our own

1758
01:03:25,012 --> 01:03:25,171
illusion.

1759
01:03:25,887 --> 01:03:28,434
Right. Exactly. And the the illusion they make

1760
01:03:28,434 --> 01:03:29,866
is they only made so many, and they're

1761
01:03:29,866 --> 01:03:32,340
never making anymore. Right? So long if I

1762
01:03:32,340 --> 01:03:33,451
don't break that promise.

1763
01:03:34,085 --> 01:03:34,323
Yeah.

1764
01:03:35,116 --> 01:03:36,646
Our government, of course, makes

1765
01:03:37,098 --> 01:03:40,302
billions with looking all the time without consulting

1766
01:03:40,302 --> 01:03:40,462
us.

1767
01:03:41,181 --> 01:03:42,699
Right. But that's a whole other game.

1768
01:03:43,338 --> 01:03:43,498
Yeah.

1769
01:03:44,617 --> 01:03:46,615
Well, Kelly, clearly, I could speak with you

1770
01:03:46,615 --> 01:03:48,484
about this for a long time. I really

1771
01:03:48,700 --> 01:03:49,337
appreciate your work.

1772
01:03:50,371 --> 01:03:51,723
Is there anything else you'd like to touch

1773
01:03:51,723 --> 01:03:51,882
on?

1774
01:03:53,393 --> 01:03:55,483
No. That was that was super great questions.

1775
01:03:55,643 --> 01:03:57,240
It's really fascinating in. Thank you so much.

1776
01:03:57,480 --> 01:03:58,759
Well, thank you. And thank you for your

1777
01:03:58,759 --> 01:04:00,117
new book, and

1778
01:04:00,597 --> 01:04:01,715
you're welcome back anytime.

1779
01:04:02,369 --> 01:04:04,367
Thanks so much. Thanks. Take care.

1780
01:04:05,406 --> 01:04:07,804
That was the legendary Kelly Clan. Make sure

1781
01:04:07,804 --> 01:04:09,802
you grab a copy or 20 of Kelly's

1782
01:04:09,802 --> 01:04:12,371
new book, playing with reality. How games have

1783
01:04:12,371 --> 01:04:15,240
shaped our world, wherever books are sold. You

1784
01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:17,631
can also follow Kelly's work at kelly b

1785
01:04:17,631 --> 01:04:18,747
clan dot com.

1786
01:04:19,638 --> 01:04:22,820
Don't forget podcasts, make great gifts. Share 2

1787
01:04:22,820 --> 01:04:24,569
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01:04:24,569 --> 01:04:26,160
and make sure you follow us today on

1789
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:27,751
your podcast player of choice.

1790
01:04:28,564 --> 01:04:31,200
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1791
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:33,917
investing part of your life with us, feeling

1792
01:04:33,917 --> 01:04:36,250
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01:04:36,250 --> 01:04:39,210
overworked entrepreneur, you know every minute counts, hire

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to analysis, delivering results with unparalleled deficiency, say

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Discover how to create transformative

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01:05:50,617 --> 01:05:53,274
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01:05:53,413 --> 01:05:56,050
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1822
01:05:56,782 --> 01:05:59,013
Head over to category pirates dot com today

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01:05:59,013 --> 01:06:01,005
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01:06:01,005 --> 01:06:01,483
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01:06:03,809 --> 01:06:06,606
Newsletter subscribers now get access to free audio

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01:06:06,606 --> 01:06:08,843
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01:06:08,843 --> 01:06:10,841
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01:06:10,841 --> 01:06:13,089
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01:06:13,089 --> 01:06:14,362
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1831
01:06:15,237 --> 01:06:17,545
Today's information is provided to use solely for

1832
01:06:17,545 --> 01:06:19,773
informational purposes. This podcast cast is the sole

1833
01:06:19,773 --> 01:06:22,253
property of the Lock network and it contains

1834
01:06:22,253 --> 01:06:24,235
content known to the state of California to

1835
01:06:24,235 --> 01:06:27,353
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1836
01:06:27,567 --> 01:06:28,202
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1837
01:06:28,853 --> 01:06:32,116
All podcasts contain nuts. All rates disturbed. Please

1838
01:06:32,116 --> 01:06:35,060
contact your doctor lawyer, accountant. Yoga instructor Shaman

1839
01:06:35,060 --> 01:06:37,925
and category designer before doing anything about anything.

1840
01:06:38,179 --> 01:06:41,511
You here here today. Warning in California drivers

1841
01:06:41,511 --> 01:06:43,574
blocking traffic in the left hand lane, by

1842
01:06:43,574 --> 01:06:45,716
law can receive a 269

1843
01:06:45,716 --> 01:06:48,282
dollar fine. So please, don't be lame, get

1844
01:06:48,282 --> 01:06:49,321
out of the passing lane.

1845
01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:51,878
Everything is the way that it is because

1846
01:06:51,878 --> 01:06:53,875
somebody changed it the way that it was.

1847
01:06:54,369 --> 01:06:56,358
This episode was produced and edited by me,

1848
01:06:56,596 --> 01:06:59,858
Jason Villa. Sara, Jamie J handled a website

1849
01:06:59,858 --> 01:07:02,737
and technical execution. Show notes by Gm Simon.

1850
01:07:02,976 --> 01:07:04,409
R j and e x Bob do our

1851
01:07:04,409 --> 01:07:06,878
web development. Cedric Bi does our graphic and

1852
01:07:06,878 --> 01:07:09,187
web design. Our law firm is weed and

1853
01:07:09,346 --> 01:07:11,505
Jack. Our accountants are 3 balance sheets to

1854
01:07:11,505 --> 01:07:13,569
the wind. We record on squad cast dot

1855
01:07:13,569 --> 01:07:15,871
f m. Tom Waits was right. Listen to

1856
01:07:15,871 --> 01:07:18,173
motor head. Thanks, Ka Dandy and Hate Colin

1857
01:07:18,173 --> 01:07:20,180
this ot, cast really ties the room together.

1858
01:07:20,579 --> 01:07:22,812
Our deepest apologies go out to Sam Benjamin

1859
01:07:22,812 --> 01:07:24,886
freed. Sorry, Sammy, we just ran out of

1860
01:07:24,886 --> 01:07:27,039
time for you. Till next time. Stay safe.

1861
01:07:27,358 --> 01:07:30,083
Stay legendary and follow your different.

1862
01:07:35,820 --> 01:07:35,874
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