1 00:00:02,050 --> 00:00:03,120 In modern times, 2 00:00:03,140 --> 00:00:07,720 one of the most difficult issues leaders are faced with is helping those who 3 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:10,520 struggle with mental health no longer can. 4 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:14,560 We simply encourage a good measure of scripture study in prayer and expect 5 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:16,120 everyone's life to stabilize. 6 00:00:16,470 --> 00:00:21,120 This is why leading saints felt it was so important to organize the mentally 7 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:25,600 healthy saints library. There. One can find 25 plus presentations, 8 00:00:25,620 --> 00:00:28,520 all about ministering to those who struggle with mental health. 9 00:00:28,610 --> 00:00:32,920 We cover topics like depression, anxiety, SCR, velocity, or O C D. 10 00:00:33,010 --> 00:00:37,160 We even cover how to effectively refer individuals to professional therapists 11 00:00:37,180 --> 00:00:41,080 and make sure they're getting the help they need. This ends so much more. 12 00:00:41,250 --> 00:00:43,520 If you'd like to review all of these sessions, 13 00:00:43,530 --> 00:00:46,120 we would love to have you do so at no cost, 14 00:00:46,300 --> 00:00:51,200 you can visit leading saints.org/fourteen and get access to the full library. 15 00:00:51,220 --> 00:00:55,480 For 14 days. You'll also receive access to all our virtual libraries, 16 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:57,920 where we cover additional leadership related topics. 17 00:00:58,090 --> 00:00:59,720 So click the link in the show notes, 18 00:00:59,850 --> 00:01:02,960 or simply visit leading saints.org/fourteen. 19 00:01:06,750 --> 00:01:09,240 Before we jump into the content of this episode, 20 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:11,840 I kind of feel it's important that I introduce myself. Now. 21 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:13,800 Many of you have been around a long time. 22 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:18,160 You're well familiar with my voice and with leading saints as an 23 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:20,080 organization, but if you're not, well, 24 00:01:20,210 --> 00:01:24,200 my name is Kurt Frankum and I am the executive director of leading saints and 25 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:28,720 the podcast host now leading saints is a nonprofit organization dedicated, 26 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,120 helping latter day saints, be better prepared to lead. 27 00:01:31,180 --> 00:01:34,200 And we do that through well content creation like this podcast, 28 00:01:34,260 --> 00:01:37,480 and many other resources@leadingsaints.org. And, uh, 29 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:42,400 we don't act like we have all the answers or know exactly what a leader should 30 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,160 do or not do, but we like to explore the concepts of leadership, 31 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:47,360 the science of leadership, 32 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:51,600 what people are researching about leadership and see how we can apply them to a 33 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:53,640 latter day Saint world. So here we go, 34 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,360 Everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the leading saints podcast. Uh, 35 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:03,720 and this episode, I talk with Noel McBride. 36 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:07,720 She's the author of beauty for Ashe's divorce and the latter day Saint woman, 37 00:02:07,900 --> 00:02:12,520 and just a really insightful conversation about divorce and leader's role 38 00:02:12,570 --> 00:02:16,080 in divorce. Uh, we're actually gonna add this, the video interview. 39 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:18,680 I I'm gonna add it to our single saints library, 40 00:02:18,980 --> 00:02:22,760 but Noel talks about her own story of going through a divorce and, uh, 41 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:27,040 just the dynamics that happen that in an award and what the leaders role in 42 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:31,720 that, and just listen to various concepts of things. Leaders can say, right? 43 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:32,400 That's always the, 44 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,840 the heavy part of these situations is I wanna say the right thing as a leader. 45 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:36,840 I don't know what to say, 46 00:02:36,860 --> 00:02:41,440 but she gives some ideas and perspective that maybe help there and so much more. 47 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:46,080 So I think you'll enjoy this definitely worth re-listing to in, in the future. 48 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:47,560 If you come across, you know, 49 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,840 a situation where you're more involved in ministering to somebody going through 50 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,840 a divorce and whatnot. So check it out. Here's my interview with Noel McBride, 51 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,910 the author of beauty for ashes divorce and the latter day Saint woman, 52 00:03:08,510 --> 00:03:10,720 Noel. McBrien welcome to the leading saints podcast. 53 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:12,680 Thank you. Nice to be. 54 00:03:13,110 --> 00:03:13,600 Yeah. 55 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:18,400 You are the author of a beauty for ashes divorce and the latter Saint woman. 56 00:03:18,810 --> 00:03:22,400 So where did the beginning of all this happen where you thought I'm gonna write 57 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:23,233 a book? 58 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:25,080 it actually happened in a closet? 59 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:29,560 Believe it or not I was going through my divorce. Oh, nice. Yeah. 60 00:03:29,700 --> 00:03:34,520 And I was really having a difficult time and I would often go 61 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:36,560 into my closet to cry. 62 00:03:36,980 --> 00:03:40,320 And so my kids wouldn't hear me and I was talking to a girlfriend on the phone 63 00:03:40,580 --> 00:03:42,160 and she said to me, Noel, 64 00:03:42,590 --> 00:03:46,240 I promised you that someday your story is going to inspire other people. 65 00:03:46,740 --> 00:03:50,720 And in that moment, I can only describe it as just like a, 66 00:03:50,830 --> 00:03:52,680 a flash of an image in my mind. 67 00:03:52,830 --> 00:03:57,120 I could see a book in my head and I immediately thought, I, 68 00:03:57,190 --> 00:04:01,360 I can't possibly write a book. I'm, I'm a mess right now. I can't even, 69 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,360 you know, I was really struggling at that point. And so, 70 00:04:04,620 --> 00:04:06,560 but I kind of held onto that idea. 71 00:04:06,660 --> 00:04:11,000 And then as I experienced more hope and healing through the atonement of Jesus 72 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:12,880 Christ and more time passed, 73 00:04:13,230 --> 00:04:17,320 I had other experiences than then that allowed me to kind of build on that. 74 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:22,160 And it took me about five years to kind of collect my notes and from my journal 75 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,560 and figure out the direction that I wanted to go and, 76 00:04:24,660 --> 00:04:26,200 and then eventually write it. 77 00:04:26,450 --> 00:04:27,320 Ah, that's great. 78 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,520 And obviously we're gonna talk about your story throughout our interview today 79 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:31,353 and our discussion, 80 00:04:31,390 --> 00:04:35,160 especially as we touch on different principles that hopefully will help leaders 81 00:04:35,210 --> 00:04:38,640 as they are prepared to minister to those who are, 82 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:42,760 are going through a divorce and, you know, moving past a divorce and whatnot, 83 00:04:42,780 --> 00:04:45,560 but maybe just put everything, your story into context, 84 00:04:45,650 --> 00:04:49,240 as far as your own personal journey, your divorce and, and all that. 85 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:51,720 And then we'll continue to, to elaborate on it. 86 00:04:51,830 --> 00:04:53,480 Sure. So, uh, 87 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:58,040 I grew up in an LDS home and I met my former husband 88 00:04:58,290 --> 00:05:02,520 in the, um, the single adult ward. And I got married at the age of 20. 89 00:05:02,590 --> 00:05:04,000 I got married in the Portland temple, 90 00:05:04,210 --> 00:05:08,120 so a very normal courtship and LDS story. 91 00:05:08,540 --> 00:05:13,360 And we were married for 17 years and my intention was to be married for time in 92 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,560 all eternity, no one gets married to get divorced, but, um, 93 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:18,760 through a series of different circumstances, 94 00:05:19,010 --> 00:05:23,560 we ended up kind of going in different directions and then ended up getting 95 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:25,800 divorced. And that was difficult and hard. 96 00:05:26,060 --> 00:05:29,080 And then I had to work through the process of, um, 97 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,560 still being in the same ward for a short time being in the same stake. 98 00:05:32,890 --> 00:05:36,080 He immediately remarried. And then we had children, you know, 99 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,120 that we were trying to work through all the details with, 100 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,960 and a lot of adjustments, you know, 101 00:05:42,150 --> 00:05:46,360 especially when you have gone from being in a single household and then being in 102 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,640 two households. And then you add in other people into that scenario. 103 00:05:50,370 --> 00:05:53,360 So that was a process for sure. 104 00:05:53,620 --> 00:05:57,800 And I had really good support system, great ministering sisters, 105 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:00,200 ministering brothers, good relief society, 106 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:04,480 president and Bishop and friends that helped me and family, you know, 107 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:06,520 work through that and a great counselor, um, 108 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,000 a lot of counseling to work through that process, 109 00:06:09,260 --> 00:06:13,560 but eventually I got to a place where I was healed and happy and 110 00:06:13,990 --> 00:06:15,520 thriving being single. 111 00:06:16,140 --> 00:06:20,760 And that is actually when I end up meeting my current husband that I married to, 112 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:25,280 he's a widower and we had a long courtship and, um, 113 00:06:25,280 --> 00:06:26,920 married in the Columbia river temple. 114 00:06:27,180 --> 00:06:30,040 And now we're blending our two households together. 115 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,200 We have six children between the two of us. And so that's, 116 00:06:33,270 --> 00:06:35,160 that's a whole nother adventure . 117 00:06:35,190 --> 00:06:39,920 Yeah. So my wife and I, we just celebrated 16 years of marriage. 118 00:06:39,940 --> 00:06:43,680 And so this sort of, you know, hearing you that this, the end, 119 00:06:43,700 --> 00:06:48,000 the marriage ended at 17 years sort of puts that into perspective for me was 120 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:52,680 this like just, I, cuz a lot of people see that like, man, you made it 17 years. 121 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:56,280 Why not another 17 years. Right? Like, yeah. And you talk about this, 122 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:00,000 you went in different directions. Was it more in, you know, 123 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,320 I don't know how much of the details you wanna share or you know, his story, 124 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,480 his story, whatnot. But was there like a moment where you realized, 125 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,960 well suddenly we're in different directions or did you find out that actually 126 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,400 the whole 17 years we were in going in different directions? 127 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:13,280 We just didn't know it. 128 00:07:13,510 --> 00:07:17,560 Yeah. I think that there was probably a little bit of both of that. There were, 129 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,880 there were things that I definitely could point to that were contributing 130 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:25,360 factors and despite counseling and working with a Bishop and the state 131 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:25,760 president, 132 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:29,600 those things were not able to be resolved in a way that we could move forward. 133 00:07:29,740 --> 00:07:34,200 And so yeah, and his story is his story. And so, and he's, you know, 134 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:38,200 the father of my children. And so I'm really careful to respect that always. 135 00:07:38,450 --> 00:07:40,160 So yeah, it, I mean, 136 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,960 there was definitely moments that I am able to look back now and go, oh, 137 00:07:44,270 --> 00:07:47,880 I can see how he and I were making different choices at different, you know, 138 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:52,000 junctures and which then led to, you know, much wider choices. 139 00:07:52,650 --> 00:07:56,400 So I would say it's a culmination of both to answer your question. 140 00:07:56,630 --> 00:08:01,320 It's a little bit of hindsight is 20. Yeah, sure. And then going forward. 141 00:08:01,790 --> 00:08:02,840 Yeah. So. 142 00:08:03,170 --> 00:08:07,640 So this concept of healing that like maybe unpack that concept a little bit 143 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:09,320 more, cuz I think everybody wants to, 144 00:08:09,670 --> 00:08:12,600 it's almost like when I talk with recovering addicts, right. 145 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:14,400 There's sobriety and then there's recovery. 146 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,960 And so maybe in this context there's like there's healing and then there's like, 147 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,560 I'm just surviving, but I don't cry every day. So I guess that's right. 148 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,080 I'm good. like, I dunno, like unpack the concert of healing. 149 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,680 And were there times when you thought that you were healed, 150 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,720 but then discovered with some more work that you were not healed? 151 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:35,040 Right. So healing is a process and you've already kind of mentioned, 152 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,440 there was a season for me that I was crying every day, you know, 153 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:40,480 and I just couldn't believe that this was my life. 154 00:08:40,630 --> 00:08:43,560 That was a really difficult season for me. 155 00:08:43,740 --> 00:08:47,800 And then eventually I grew to be able to accept my circumstances 156 00:08:48,380 --> 00:08:52,760 and I didn't like my circumstances, but I accepted them for what they were. 157 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:57,680 And then that grew into seeing the joy and 158 00:08:57,780 --> 00:09:02,600 the peace and the happiness and not feeling like I'm missing something 159 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,640 from my life. And so that's how I felt overall. 160 00:09:06,380 --> 00:09:09,880 And then you ask the question, you know, were there times that I felt like, oh, 161 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:11,000 I haven't healed as much. 162 00:09:11,270 --> 00:09:15,360 I would say that there were things that would come up like forgiveness or 163 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:20,160 boundaries where I became aware of another layer that I needed to go 164 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:25,160 through to be able to process and work through and get better at that 165 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:26,840 principle, whether that was, you know, 166 00:09:27,070 --> 00:09:31,760 just the principle forgiveness or setting healthier boundaries or things like 167 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:35,080 that. So there were times I never felt like I wasn't healed, 168 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,960 but I definitely became aware of, oh, 169 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,000 this maybe is an area that needs a little bit more work. 170 00:09:41,420 --> 00:09:44,600 And so that was kind of my process as I went through it. 171 00:09:44,730 --> 00:09:49,480 So I think that the reason I used the word healed is I felt peace and joy 172 00:09:49,500 --> 00:09:51,200 and contentment in my life. 173 00:09:51,220 --> 00:09:55,960 And I felt close to my savior and I didn't feel like I was missing 174 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,920 something in my life because I wasn't married anymore. 175 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:03,280 Hmm. Yeah. And I'm sure that like, that's just a natural transition. 176 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,240 You are going to feel like you're missing something just because everything's 177 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:07,233 probably feels different. 178 00:10:07,350 --> 00:10:11,200 Yeah. And especially when you get married young, right. Like I went from, I was, 179 00:10:11,270 --> 00:10:14,440 I had only been outta the house for a short period of time before I got married. 180 00:10:14,780 --> 00:10:16,600 And so yeah, there were definitely, 181 00:10:16,630 --> 00:10:20,840 I spent the majority of my adult life being married. So yeah. It was a big, 182 00:10:20,890 --> 00:10:24,520 it was a big thing when I realized, oh, I can actually have joy. 183 00:10:24,550 --> 00:10:28,160 I can actually have happiness. My life is fulfilled and it, 184 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,960 that doesn't have to happen just through this only this pathway. 185 00:10:31,150 --> 00:10:34,880 Yeah. It's really helpful. And then obviously with these types of things, 186 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:36,640 almost like when there's a, 187 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,560 there's a death and this is maybe in the context of there's a death of a 188 00:10:39,680 --> 00:10:40,560 marriage, right. That, yeah. 189 00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:44,160 There's sort of this morning process or these different phases you go through 190 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:48,320 and I'm sure many, you know, especially leaders or loved ones, 191 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:51,680 they see you having a hard day and they just want to get you past it. Like, oh, 192 00:10:51,680 --> 00:10:54,400 you know, maybe he was a jerk anyways. You know, 193 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,600 they say these things like you should be happy he's out of your life. Or, 194 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:02,440 you know, like, cuz we wanna move you past the hurt. Yeah. But is there like, 195 00:11:02,650 --> 00:11:04,960 do you need to be in that stage for just a while? 196 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:07,200 Like for that healing to effectively take hold. 197 00:11:07,620 --> 00:11:10,760 Yes. Yes. And actually this is a really important principle. 198 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,520 I talk about this in my book that when you marry someone, 199 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:17,720 your hearts are knit together and this is especially true in an eternal marriage 200 00:11:17,870 --> 00:11:19,520 that your hearts become knit together. 201 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,200 And then when you go through a divorce it's like that is ripped apart. 202 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:27,120 And that knitting then causes internal bleeding and only through the 203 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:29,000 savior, Jesus Christ can that be healed. 204 00:11:29,140 --> 00:11:31,800 And a lot of times when we go through divorce, we look through, 205 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,640 out for outside sources to try and heal. 206 00:11:35,060 --> 00:11:38,560 And those things might be like bandaids for a short period of time, 207 00:11:38,560 --> 00:11:42,240 but they won't be able to have that secure healing, 208 00:11:42,750 --> 00:11:46,040 that long term healing, unless it is through the atonement. 209 00:11:46,650 --> 00:11:50,840 So it definitely is a process. And I love this past week, 210 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,080 we've been talking about job in the old Testament. 211 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:57,600 And one of the things that his friends do is they come and they sit with him. 212 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:02,280 Right. And I had many friends that did that, that just came and sat with me. 213 00:12:02,710 --> 00:12:06,040 I did have some friends who definitely tried to, you know, 214 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:07,800 like your life is definitely better and, 215 00:12:07,820 --> 00:12:10,320 and those things are helpful to a degree, 216 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:15,040 but you do have to kind of sit with it and feel the grief and the 217 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,200 sorrow and the loss that comes from that. 218 00:12:17,660 --> 00:12:20,480 And then once you work through that, 219 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:24,840 then you can move on to that next stage. But I did some kind of unique things. 220 00:12:25,030 --> 00:12:29,680 I served a mission in between which does not make sense. 221 00:12:29,750 --> 00:12:32,080 Yeah. But I talk about this in my book. 222 00:12:32,310 --> 00:12:34,480 This was a recommendation for my counselor. 223 00:12:35,070 --> 00:12:39,520 I had very well meaning friends who, as soon as my divorce divorce was final, 224 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,080 they're like, great. We are gonna set you up on all these blind dates. 225 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:44,480 You're gonna have so much fun. 226 00:12:44,940 --> 00:12:49,920 And the thought trying to date, I was just sick to my stomach. 227 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:51,800 And I thought, no, I cannot do this. 228 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:55,040 So I remember going into my counselor and I was just really emotional. 229 00:12:55,380 --> 00:12:58,120 And I said, I don't, I don't know how to explain to them. 230 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:02,200 I'm not ready to do this. I don't know that I'm ever going to get married again. 231 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,240 I need to figure out what was my part in this. 232 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:09,800 I need to take responsibility from my part and I need to heal and I need to make 233 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:11,000 sure that my kids are stable. 234 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,680 So the thought of trying to jump back into relationship was, you know, 235 00:13:14,680 --> 00:13:19,200 the furthest thing for my mind. And my counselor said, well, 236 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:20,720 why don't you serve a mission? And I was like, 237 00:13:21,020 --> 00:13:25,840 you do know that I have three children and I'm working. Uh, I, 238 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,480 I don't understand, you know, like how, how would this even work? And he is, 239 00:13:29,530 --> 00:13:32,000 he was very great. And he said, well, no, you, 240 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,480 you would just be like one of the sister missionaries, you know, 241 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:36,760 you have a regular time that you get up in the morning and you study the 242 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:41,440 scriptures and you choose not to date during this time. And you're doing things, 243 00:13:41,580 --> 00:13:44,680 you know, you're taking care of your family and you're working. And then, 244 00:13:44,950 --> 00:13:47,000 then when you're not doing those things, 245 00:13:47,060 --> 00:13:49,760 you are doing the things that the missionaries would do. 246 00:13:50,180 --> 00:13:53,840 And I sat there for a moment and I just was like, thinking about this concept. 247 00:13:54,460 --> 00:13:57,800 And I was like, actually, I really like it. I'm gonna do it. 248 00:13:58,300 --> 00:14:02,560 And so I did. And then this is yeah. This is such a tender. 249 00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:03,400 Mercy is, 250 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:07,800 is that heavenly father called sister missionaries to my ward during this time 251 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:12,280 we had always had elders. And so then we had sister missionaries. So I got to, 252 00:14:12,290 --> 00:14:16,120 anytime I wasn't with my children, I got to go on splits with these sisters. 253 00:14:16,630 --> 00:14:18,760 I got to take them on rides. I mean, 254 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,600 like anything and everything that they needed, I was able to help them with. 255 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:26,200 And then I was getting up and having my own personal scripture study and 256 00:14:26,470 --> 00:14:29,560 I was really studying the conference talks. 257 00:14:29,750 --> 00:14:34,320 I was attending the temple regularly and I was just pouring myself 258 00:14:34,550 --> 00:14:37,560 into becoming a better disciple of Jesus Christ. 259 00:14:38,140 --> 00:14:41,960 And it really helped me to refocus. 260 00:14:42,780 --> 00:14:47,640 And I think it was a huge part in the process of my healing that helped 261 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,360 that move forward that way. So it's kind of unusual, 262 00:14:50,620 --> 00:14:52,480 but it was really helpful for me. 263 00:14:52,910 --> 00:14:55,840 Yeah, no, I, I love that, that, and, and the, 264 00:14:55,840 --> 00:15:00,720 I guess the deeper principle I'm taking away is that gave you a framework or a 265 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:05,080 model to approach life with where I think there's these natural responses of 266 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,720 like, okay, I sort of, I've had this, you know, 267 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,760 the spouse for years and years and maybe, you know, 268 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,160 we all depend on our spouse for various needs that we have in life. Right. 269 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:18,240 And I need to go find another spouse or this, or whether you're thinking that, 270 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,880 or your loved ones are thinking that like, yeah, let's get you. 271 00:15:20,910 --> 00:15:23,920 That was a bad marriage. Let's get you in a good marriage. Yeah. 272 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:26,240 And life is good and we can move forward. Right. 273 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:28,960 But maybe create some space there and just say, 274 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:33,280 I need to just breathe into this new experience that I'm in rather than racing 275 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:38,000 to the next relationship and having this mindset of being on a mission 276 00:15:38,070 --> 00:15:40,160 really gave you that and created that space. 277 00:15:40,490 --> 00:15:42,440 It did definitely. Yeah. 278 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,200 That's awesome. I was gonna ask, uh, 279 00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:48,760 you mentioned this concept outside sources of, uh, 280 00:15:49,100 --> 00:15:51,680 and I forget exactly, but we like, you know, we're, 281 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,920 we're feeling different feelings and it hurts. And so we, 282 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,160 we reach for outside sources and some people, you know, 283 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:02,160 maybe they get wanted to get back in a relationship cuz that's a source that 284 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:03,920 sort of numbs the pain of it all. 285 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,880 And so maybe is there anything more to say to that in your personal experience 286 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:11,440 of how you reached out to outside sources that maybe weren't as helpful? 287 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:13,760 Not that they were necessarily bad or sinful, but right. 288 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:17,080 You were just sort of trying to survive without outside sources rather than 289 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:17,590 Jesus. 290 00:16:17,590 --> 00:16:21,640 Yeah, absolutely. Binge watching, you know, 291 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,560 Netflix is a great example of that. so, 292 00:16:25,780 --> 00:16:30,080 and that was one of the things, you know, as I worked on this mission, 293 00:16:30,630 --> 00:16:34,480 I really went through, I call it, uh, my editing period. 294 00:16:34,510 --> 00:16:36,880 I became a ruthless editor of my own life. 295 00:16:37,210 --> 00:16:41,200 So I started to look at the things in my life and ask the questions, you know, 296 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,040 how is this bringing me closer to my savior? Jesus Christ. 297 00:16:44,610 --> 00:16:48,000 Is this making me a better disciple of Jesus Christ? You know, 298 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,200 how is this helping me be a better mother or wife or well, 299 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,560 not wife at that point, but a better mother, a better sister, you know, 300 00:16:55,660 --> 00:16:57,200 all those different relationships. 301 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,160 And so I started examining all sorts of different things. You know, 302 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,000 the music that I was listening to, the books that I was reading, 303 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,880 the movies that I was watching, all of those different things in, 304 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:11,800 when you go through a divorce, there's a tendency, it rocks your world in a way, 305 00:17:11,810 --> 00:17:15,960 because you go through such a deep grieving period of the loss of something that 306 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:20,240 you had planned on for not just the rest of your life, but for eternity. 307 00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:25,080 And so there's a sifting, a little bit of, you know, what is most important. 308 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:27,160 And for some people, you know, 309 00:17:27,430 --> 00:17:32,280 they are frustrated because they feel like I did all the right things. 310 00:17:32,550 --> 00:17:36,120 I, you know, attended young women's I went to seminary, 311 00:17:36,430 --> 00:17:39,080 I got married in the temple. You know, 312 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,920 I stayed worthy so that I could enjoy all those blessings. 313 00:17:42,140 --> 00:17:45,960 And then I kept my covenants and I did my calling and I had children and all 314 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,760 these things. So why didn't this work out this way? 315 00:17:49,420 --> 00:17:53,200 And so sometimes they're asking that question, why, 316 00:17:53,260 --> 00:17:56,480 and that I find is not the right question to ask, 317 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:01,480 but in the asking of why the adversary is very quick to 318 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:03,960 want to come in and say, well, the, the church has failed you. 319 00:18:04,070 --> 00:18:08,400 They sold you this story of eternal happiness and bliss mm-hmm and 320 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:13,000 what you got was heartache. So the church must not be true and it's a, 321 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:16,160 it's an insidious lie. And so for me, 322 00:18:16,270 --> 00:18:20,840 I had to really sort through that and, uh, recognize, you know, 323 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,120 what is my testimony based on, you know, 324 00:18:23,170 --> 00:18:28,040 am I obedient because I love the Lord or am I obedient because I want something 325 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:32,200 from him. And I expect that if I do my covenants, 326 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,520 then the Lord is going to give me these different things. 327 00:18:34,860 --> 00:18:39,640 And so it was a process for me to really come to understand 328 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:44,600 better what my testimony was in and to reevaluate 329 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:49,480 and edit and redefine and reframe that focus of being 330 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:54,280 willing to accept that there are things that are out of my control and there are 331 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:56,880 answers some answers I'm never going to have in this life. 332 00:18:57,220 --> 00:18:59,880 But as I rely on the savior, Jesus Christ, 333 00:19:00,230 --> 00:19:04,920 that I can experience peace and I can experience joy and I can 334 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:05,753 experience healing. 335 00:19:06,140 --> 00:19:11,000 And so those that helped me to focus and 336 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,880 also to be willing to cut some of those other sources from my life 337 00:19:16,030 --> 00:19:19,400 that weren't helping me to grow my relationship with my savior. 338 00:19:19,850 --> 00:19:23,320 Ah, that's so helpful. And I'm just putting this back in the context of a, 339 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:27,160 a leadership experience, cuz oftentimes I remember being that Bishop where this, 340 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,840 you know, this marriage in your ward seems to be falling apart. 341 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:34,040 You want to have some direction, some answers and the right questions to ask. 342 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:37,920 And I'd love this concept just saying like, where do you feel like you go? Like, 343 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,960 what are some outside sources that good or bad? 344 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:45,800 Like where do you go to maybe numb out a little bit or dis you know, 345 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,680 detach from the situation that you're in. And again, 346 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,960 there's nothing wrong with a good Netflix series or right, right. Totally. 347 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,720 You know, run off to a movie and, and escaping for a few hours. 348 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,720 But when it becomes sort of that you're reliant on that. Like, 349 00:19:58,910 --> 00:20:02,760 I don't know how to sit home on a Wednesday night when my kids are with my 350 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,480 spouse and, and flourish without escaping. Right. 351 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:09,080 And so I love that just the context of these are some concepts and, 352 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:13,400 and questions leaders can ask to really help them reorient themselves. 353 00:20:13,620 --> 00:20:17,680 And I love this concept of what is your testimony based on, 354 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,520 cause I've seen this in far too many situations where a marriage, 355 00:20:21,870 --> 00:20:25,280 a temple happy marriage breaks apart, and that marriage, 356 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:30,080 the success of the marriage is almost too closely knitted to the gospel 357 00:20:30,570 --> 00:20:32,520 as far as like, this is my equation. 358 00:20:32,700 --> 00:20:35,640 The marriage works because the gospel works. Yeah. 359 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,720 And now the marriage doesn't work. So maybe the gospel doesn't work. Right. 360 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,960 And it all, all falls apart. Right. And this is a good time that, that, 361 00:20:43,020 --> 00:20:45,200 and really can be a blessing to say like, well, 362 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,920 let's step back and make sure that your testimony, 363 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:53,840 your faith and belief isn't too closely tied to other dynamics in 364 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,080 your life. Is that a fair way to frame it? Yeah. 365 00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:00,480 Absolutely. Yeah. I think so. And I think part of that process has to come, 366 00:21:00,740 --> 00:21:01,280 you know, 367 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,080 having been in several leadership positions within the church and then also 368 00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:09,680 being on the other end of needing to receive help from leaders. 369 00:21:10,390 --> 00:21:15,080 I think some of the most helpful things to me have been when my leaders have 370 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:19,960 expressed confidence in me that I would come to those answers and 371 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,640 they expressed confidence and also unconditional love. 372 00:21:24,020 --> 00:21:26,920 And I have several examples of, you know, 373 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,360 with my Bishop and my really society president at that time, 374 00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:34,920 that really helped me with those different things. So sometimes as leaders, 375 00:21:35,530 --> 00:21:37,240 we don't always have the answers. 376 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:41,160 And I think that that's okay to be able to say. And, 377 00:21:41,340 --> 00:21:45,720 but I also think that it's helpful for someone when they're going through 378 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:50,480 something hard is to express confidence in them. That was the greatest gift. 379 00:21:50,590 --> 00:21:52,840 I remember my, um, relief society president. 380 00:21:53,060 --> 00:21:57,920 She came to my house and she didn't call. She didn't, you know, 381 00:21:57,940 --> 00:22:01,600 let me know at all ahead of time, she just showed up and she said, Noel, 382 00:22:01,740 --> 00:22:04,840 the Bishop has let me know that you're getting divorced. And I'm so sorry. 383 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,480 I don't know any of the details. I never need to know the details, 384 00:22:08,740 --> 00:22:09,920 but I know you, 385 00:22:10,220 --> 00:22:13,800 and I know that this must be one of the hardest and most difficult things that 386 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:15,160 you've ever had to go through. 387 00:22:15,820 --> 00:22:20,440 And I will tell you that was such a gift to me because number one, 388 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,320 it gave me permission that I didn't have to explain to anyone. 389 00:22:23,930 --> 00:22:25,320 It was nobody's business, 390 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,960 the details of why my marriage fell apart and a divorce happened. 391 00:22:29,220 --> 00:22:33,440 And so that was really liberating because sometimes in the gospel, 392 00:22:33,650 --> 00:22:36,800 because we work so hard to have ward family, 393 00:22:37,010 --> 00:22:41,040 we feel like we have to sometimes explain, well, this is the reasons why, 394 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:42,080 you know the justifications, 395 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,600 but that's not helpful to anybody in going forward and healing. 396 00:22:45,770 --> 00:22:49,960 So the first thing is it gave me permission to not have to share those details. 397 00:22:50,060 --> 00:22:54,520 And then the second thing was her confidence and love of me in 398 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:56,680 recognizing that this was a hard thing. 399 00:22:57,140 --> 00:23:01,440 And what she did then is she made it very safe for me going forward in relief 400 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,720 society. She discreetly told people so that, 401 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,040 and it was only people in leadership opportunities to help me, 402 00:23:08,340 --> 00:23:13,200 but so I never felt like I had to like have this moment 403 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,720 within my ward of having to explain, well, I'm divorced now. You know, 404 00:23:17,030 --> 00:23:18,960 I never had to have that experience. 405 00:23:19,220 --> 00:23:22,120 And so I was always very grateful for that sister. 406 00:23:22,120 --> 00:23:26,600 I felt like she was really inspired and I went away from that ward and there 407 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,080 were people who did not even know that I had gone through a divorce until years 408 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,680 later through other, you know, connections that we made. And they were like, I, 409 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:35,840 I had no idea that you were going through that at that time. 410 00:23:36,370 --> 00:23:38,920 So that was a real gift to me. 411 00:23:39,100 --> 00:23:41,560 And a helpful thing that a leader did for me. Yeah. 412 00:23:41,630 --> 00:23:45,120 Yeah. And I've, I wanna underscore that principle of just this, 413 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,640 the power of just like being present or sitting with somebody. Right. 414 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:49,170 And as leaders, 415 00:23:49,170 --> 00:23:52,640 we want to be the leader that opens up the scriptures and has like the right 416 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,680 verse to share that makes the day just better. Right. 417 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,920 But the power of just sitting with people and it's almost like, 418 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:00,800 and this goes for all, you know, uh, 419 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:05,800 traumatic experiences is that oftentimes it's not like we want the pain to go 420 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,560 away, but we almost want someone to just witness it and acknowledge it and say, 421 00:24:09,660 --> 00:24:13,480 wow, Noel, that hurts. I imagine that hurts. And that's all you need. 422 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,600 You don't need the pain to go away, but you need someone to witness it with you. 423 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,040 Right. And that is such a huge principle. 424 00:24:19,270 --> 00:24:24,200 I wish that I could shout that from every pulpit because that is what I 425 00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:28,160 think is needed more than anything, is that witnessing. Right? 426 00:24:28,380 --> 00:24:32,640 And then this is the amazing thing that happens too. A lot of times, you know, 427 00:24:32,790 --> 00:24:36,040 when you start to ask questions of, you know, 428 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,800 what that person is experiencing and going through, like, 429 00:24:39,110 --> 00:24:41,560 I had some really good friends that would ask me, you know, 430 00:24:41,870 --> 00:24:45,600 just trying to understand my perspective. They were in happy marriages. Right. 431 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,240 And they were trying to do what they could to support and help me. 432 00:24:48,530 --> 00:24:49,840 So they would ask me questions. 433 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,880 And then they were amazed at the lessons that I was learning. Right. 434 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:57,760 It strengthened their testimony. So I think sometimes as leaders, 435 00:24:57,810 --> 00:25:01,200 we, we feel like, oh, I've gotta answer these questions and I've, 436 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,040 I've gotta help them. Or like you said, 437 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:07,240 open up to the perfect verse in scripture. Right. But I think, yeah, 438 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:12,120 something that is so much more powerful is witnessing and then also asking what 439 00:25:12,120 --> 00:25:16,480 lessons and how their testimony is growing, what lessons they're learning, 440 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,320 how their testimony is growing through this process, 441 00:25:18,710 --> 00:25:20,200 pointing them back to the savior. 442 00:25:20,390 --> 00:25:23,640 Yeah. I love that. And, and sometimes there's these repeat appointments, 443 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,240 maybe you're meeting with the Bishop or the recite president and there's this 444 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,800 pressure on that leader just think, oh, I'm meeting with Noel again. 445 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,160 Like I don't, I've shared those three scriptures before, what else do I say? 446 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,720 But just to help, like just be present in their journey being like, so what, 447 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,320 what did you learn this week? Like where did God show up? 448 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:44,000 Or maybe he didn't like, how did you navigate your life this week? 449 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:48,240 And then from there a great discussion of fellowship can come out of that. 450 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:48,600 Right. 451 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:49,720 Right. Absolutely. 452 00:25:49,990 --> 00:25:53,600 That's great. Tell me about this concept of telling other people and, 453 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,920 and really, I guess the principle comes back to, you know, 454 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,760 the Bishop or the Eastside president, as they become aware of, 455 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,160 of what's happening, obviously, you know, ask the person, you know, 456 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,440 would you like me to tell other people, how can I help you to that? 457 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,440 But there is this, you know, cuz we're ward family, 458 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:10,280 there is this pressure of being like, well, 459 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,880 I don't wanna embarrass anybody or right. Or the natural thing is, 460 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,160 let's just pretend it's not happening. We'll keep it between us. 461 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,480 And then there's these awkward, you know, events of like, you know, 462 00:26:19,580 --> 00:26:23,320 conversations or whatnot. So totally walk us through that. Like how, 463 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,440 what could we learn from your experience as far as how to get the information 464 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:28,160 out in a, in a sensitive way? 465 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,960 Right. Well, some of this happened behind the scenes in truth. 466 00:26:32,090 --> 00:26:36,200 So I still don't know how my really society president handled that I can say 467 00:26:36,390 --> 00:26:39,760 I've now been in other situations where I have been the person behind the 468 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:40,410 scenes. 469 00:26:40,410 --> 00:26:44,640 So I think the number one thing that we can do do as leaders and even as saints, 470 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,680 is to keep members names safe. And I'll say that again, 471 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:53,120 but it's really important is to keep members names safe. 472 00:26:53,540 --> 00:26:58,360 And this means that we really try to not share 473 00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:02,760 or disclose things to other people, even if we have the best of intentions, 474 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,360 which I think that most of the time as saints, 475 00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:09,280 we really do have the best of intentions. Right. But it can be like, well, 476 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,960 did you know that Susie Q like, I don't know if she's announced this, 477 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,880 but unfortunately she's going through a divorce. And then the question is like, 478 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,200 oh, you know, wait a minute. Um, 479 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,720 is she keeping the house like what's happened with the kids and, and like, 480 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:23,560 none of these are bad questions, right. 481 00:27:23,780 --> 00:27:28,680 But all of this is happening third hand instead of being able to directly go 482 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,640 to that person. And then it, as somebody who's been through a divorce, 483 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,920 there were lots of it that was incredibly private to me. 484 00:27:37,430 --> 00:27:40,400 I did not want to share, um, those details. 485 00:27:40,820 --> 00:27:43,440 And so I think part of that, 486 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:48,240 keeping members names safe is allowing people to share the details that they 487 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:53,040 want to and accepting what they wanna share and not asking more 488 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,960 questions. Right. And then resisting the urge. 489 00:27:56,230 --> 00:28:00,720 Like I just recently had a situation with a friend shared with me, 490 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:05,240 unfortunately, that she is divorced and she shared it with me in private. 491 00:28:05,620 --> 00:28:06,840 And I waited, 492 00:28:07,030 --> 00:28:11,160 I did not share this information with anyone until she said to me, Noel, 493 00:28:11,270 --> 00:28:13,920 this is now public. And I said, you know, 494 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,120 have you shared this with our relief society president? And she says, I have. 495 00:28:17,460 --> 00:28:21,200 And that relief society president and I had half a dozen conversations and never 496 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,240 once did that sister's name. 497 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:28,000 Like I never once shared that until she had shared that and said 498 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:29,000 it's public now. 499 00:28:29,050 --> 00:28:33,480 So I think that that's part of keeping people's names safe is knowing that they 500 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,960 can share private things with you and it's not going to go anywhere else. 501 00:28:38,020 --> 00:28:41,560 And that's a really important principle in the gospel. 502 00:28:42,030 --> 00:28:45,760 Yeah. So with that said, how did you navigate those moments, 503 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,840 especially being in the same ward with where your, your ex-husband stayed in? 504 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,680 The same ward? I mean was, if nobody knows where their moments were like, okay, 505 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:55,920 why is your husband sitting over there? And you're sitting here, like, 506 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:57,560 what's going on? Like, I mean, 507 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,200 did any of those types of dynamics come up and how'd you navigate him? 508 00:29:00,390 --> 00:29:03,840 Yeah. So I had been serving previously, um, 509 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:05,920 in the state young women's presidency. 510 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,920 So I was frequently gone on Sundays doing ward conferences and 511 00:29:10,270 --> 00:29:13,880 speaking assignments and different things like that. So there was some of that, 512 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,280 that there was a natural tendency for me to kind of be in and out of the ward 513 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:18,640 during that season. 514 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:23,360 And then I was released from that calling and then we were in the same ward. 515 00:29:24,050 --> 00:29:28,880 So it was definitely awkward and especially because 516 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,560 almost immediately, as soon as our divorce was final, he had his, 517 00:29:33,020 --> 00:29:35,520 who is now his wife start coming to church with him. 518 00:29:35,690 --> 00:29:38,160 So it was really the three of us that. 519 00:29:38,180 --> 00:29:42,320 And then you go from having your children sit with you in a pew, 520 00:29:42,530 --> 00:29:46,920 as a family. And then on the weeks that you did not have your children, 521 00:29:46,990 --> 00:29:50,280 I was then sitting by myself in a pew, right. 522 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:55,040 And then he is sitting with hi, our children and his soon to be fiance. 523 00:29:55,690 --> 00:29:57,920 So there was a lot to navigate there. 524 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,680 So let me share with you some things that were really helpful with that, 525 00:30:00,940 --> 00:30:05,880 the first is I had some amazing ministering sisters who made sure that I always 526 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,200 had a place to sit with them. So I was never alone in church. 527 00:30:09,270 --> 00:30:13,200 They always made room for me in their pew. So that was really, really helpful. 528 00:30:13,700 --> 00:30:15,400 And then also, you know, 529 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,440 my Bishop was aware of the circumstance he had even suggested to my former 530 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,600 husband that maybe it would be easier to go to a different ward for time being 531 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,520 to just kind of let things die down. 532 00:30:25,750 --> 00:30:28,280 That wasn't what my former husband chose to do. 533 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,160 So then my Bishop to make things safe for me, 534 00:30:31,730 --> 00:30:33,960 he had a couple of friends, 535 00:30:34,070 --> 00:30:38,200 good women in the ward that they walked with me to gospel 536 00:30:38,770 --> 00:30:42,160 or to relieve society. And they were always sitting with me. 537 00:30:42,770 --> 00:30:45,920 So that was really helpful. And again, 538 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,760 I didn't explain any details to any of these women. 539 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,000 Like they never knew any of the details of, of, you know, my divorce, 540 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,880 but they were willing to help and support me in that way. Um, so, 541 00:30:56,180 --> 00:30:59,120 and then eventually I got to a place where I was just like, 542 00:30:59,430 --> 00:31:01,920 this is hindering my healing. 543 00:31:02,030 --> 00:31:05,040 I don't feel like I can focus on receiving the sacrament. 544 00:31:05,420 --> 00:31:10,400 And so then I talked with my Bishop about being able to go to my parents' ward. 545 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,280 They were in the same stake, but it was a different ward building. 546 00:31:13,620 --> 00:31:18,560 And thankfully it was just 10 minutes away. So that Bishop then arranged, 547 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:22,480 he talked with that Bishop and they arranged for me to be a member of that 548 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,120 congregation for the next six months. 549 00:31:24,540 --> 00:31:29,160 And that was amazing for me because then I could go to church and I didn't feel 550 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:30,480 like all eyes were on me. 551 00:31:30,980 --> 00:31:35,480 And I felt like something that had been very public then was able to, 552 00:31:35,590 --> 00:31:40,480 I was able to refocus on receiving the sacrament and having that be 553 00:31:40,830 --> 00:31:45,600 a holy period of time for me to have communion with the Lord and to 554 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,200 renew my covenants. And then it was great sitting with my parents. Right. 555 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:50,040 And then, you know, 556 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,960 my kids also enjoyed that time of getting to have more time with grandma and 557 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:54,793 grandpa as well. 558 00:31:55,250 --> 00:31:59,120 So I felt like there was a lot of things that my leaders were really aware of my 559 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:03,760 needs and asked me what they could do to support me and to help me through that, 560 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,560 that process, which I'm really thankful for. 561 00:32:06,790 --> 00:32:08,720 Yeah. I love that. And, and, you know, 562 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,800 there's be naive to think there's some secret formula that to do with every 563 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,200 situation. Right. But I just love that, that, you know, 564 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,600 the Bishop's looking to be flexible. They're looking for option C, 565 00:32:18,630 --> 00:32:22,800 D and F you know. Yeah. Okay. We, we tried option B, but you know, 566 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,280 the husband doesn't wanna go to different ward, so what's another option. Right. 567 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:27,760 And you're just, and then just the, 568 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,320 the fellowship you get there where no explanation needed, 569 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,680 I'm just here to sit by you and, and let's do this, you know, and, 570 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,600 and then taking some time to go to another ward. And, and, 571 00:32:36,700 --> 00:32:39,960 and sometimes we feel like, well, if we go, we've transferred another war, 572 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:41,720 that's like a permanent thing, but it's like, no, 573 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,680 we're just gonna do it for six months and then you'll come back and we'll try 574 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,080 something else. Right. Right. Just all that flexibility. I love that. 575 00:32:47,230 --> 00:32:50,040 Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was, and I felt very supported. 576 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,680 Cool. Well, let's talk about, I know you've sent me a, 577 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,120 a list of some general principles and hopefully we're getting around them, but, 578 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,040 uh, make sure we're not missing anything. 579 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:02,440 Talk to me about this concept of like personal, spiritual revelation. 580 00:33:02,900 --> 00:33:07,600 And sometimes when that revelation seems a bit silent and there is this dynamic 581 00:33:07,810 --> 00:33:12,560 of, you know, I remember one instance as a Bishop where this sister came in and, 582 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:12,760 you know, 583 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,760 and I've been meeting with her and her husband and was aware of this situation 584 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,200 and she shared that they were gonna divorce and it was sort of her decision. 585 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:23,840 And in inside I'm thinking, no, like this is not the best option, 586 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,640 but I was mature enough to say, you know, this isn't my call. 587 00:33:26,670 --> 00:33:31,160 I gotta respect to the inspiration that they're receiving and, and whatnot, 588 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,040 and this is the direction it's going. Right. 589 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:37,920 So just where do we begin with that whole dynamic of receiving revelation and 590 00:33:37,950 --> 00:33:40,920 having that, you know, leaders involved and whatnot. 591 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:41,793 Right. 592 00:33:42,170 --> 00:33:47,000 So I think the first thing as a leader is to recognize that whenever anyone, 593 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:51,480 whether that is a man or a woman comes to you and says, I'm getting a divorce, 594 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,040 I've decided to file for a divorce, 595 00:33:53,510 --> 00:33:56,720 that there has been so much thought, 596 00:33:57,570 --> 00:34:02,560 so many prayers, so many trying to somehow keep that family together. 597 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:06,480 That like divorce is the last of the last of the last option. 598 00:34:06,860 --> 00:34:09,440 And so when you are, 599 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,040 as a leader are finally receiving that information. 600 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,440 Sometimes you're the first person to receive that information. Right. 601 00:34:15,860 --> 00:34:20,600 And it's is heartbreaking. And like you said, you know, you're like, 602 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,880 oh, there has to be another answer. There has to be another solution. 603 00:34:24,500 --> 00:34:28,840 But to acknowledge, I think, as a leader to acknowledge that, man, 604 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,840 this has to be a really hard decision. 605 00:34:32,500 --> 00:34:36,880 And I think if it is appropriate, you know, you C you could ask, you know, 606 00:34:37,140 --> 00:34:40,440 can you help share with me, help me walk me through your process, 607 00:34:40,860 --> 00:34:44,960 cuz I know that this has not been an easy decision for you to make, right? 608 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,440 And then that makes that person feel safe and like, oh, 609 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:53,280 I can share the personal revelation that I've received. You know, I, in my book, 610 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:57,880 I share my process, um, which was a very, very, very long process. 611 00:34:58,540 --> 00:35:01,880 And at one point I had even made the decision I'm gonna stay married, 612 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,680 even though I had had promptings that, that I needed to get divorced, 613 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,000 I was like, Nope, I'm gonna stay married. And it was amazing to me, 614 00:35:09,180 --> 00:35:10,840 the difference, like in the, 615 00:35:11,150 --> 00:35:15,200 I had felt like I was just receiving this constant stream of revelation as I had 616 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:19,040 been working through things. And then when I made that decision, you know, 617 00:35:19,130 --> 00:35:23,280 to stay, I felt like that revelation stopped. And that was so hard for me. 618 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:27,200 And I had to humble myself and I had to get on my knees and then ask and really 619 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,600 pray. And then I had to sit and listen. 620 00:35:29,940 --> 00:35:32,560 And that's the part of the personal revelation. 621 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,800 A lot of times we ask for things and then we we're waiting. 622 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:41,740 We're waiting for those answers. And sometimes answers take time. 623 00:35:41,950 --> 00:35:46,860 Michael S Wilco talks about this principle in his talk, the fourth watch. 624 00:35:47,070 --> 00:35:51,300 He talks about how that sometimes we have things that have to happen in our life 625 00:35:51,300 --> 00:35:54,900 to carve out space for us to be able to receive the answer for something. 626 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,980 And I love this principle. And so, uh, 627 00:35:57,980 --> 00:36:00,140 especially when it applies to personal revelation. 628 00:36:00,510 --> 00:36:02,740 So if you're talking about leaders, is, 629 00:36:02,750 --> 00:36:07,620 is that recognizing that personal revelation is a process and that silence 630 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:12,420 and time for them to receive answers is also really, really important. 631 00:36:12,930 --> 00:36:17,340 I get to work in the Seattle temple as an ordinance worker every single week. 632 00:36:17,340 --> 00:36:20,060 And I absolutely love it. And our current president right now, 633 00:36:20,110 --> 00:36:24,980 he is just so much about silence is a gateway to 634 00:36:24,980 --> 00:36:25,860 revelation . 635 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,780 And so he is always encouraging us temple workers to be quiet and allow 636 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,900 the patrons to have that experience of silence. 637 00:36:33,900 --> 00:36:38,180 That's when the spirit has the opportunity to speak to us and especially in our 638 00:36:38,180 --> 00:36:39,460 hustle and bustle world, 639 00:36:39,730 --> 00:36:44,500 it's really difficult to find that quiet space so that we can receive that 640 00:36:44,700 --> 00:36:47,780 personal revelation. So then as we go back to, 641 00:36:47,870 --> 00:36:51,620 as far as from a leadership perspective is acknowledging and recognizing 642 00:36:51,730 --> 00:36:56,340 people's ability to receive personal revelation and then giving them that 643 00:36:56,340 --> 00:37:00,420 time and that space, and then supporting them in that. 644 00:37:00,420 --> 00:37:03,020 And I have a personal experience with this, with my Bishop. 645 00:37:03,210 --> 00:37:06,540 When I finally did come to him and say, I'm getting a divorce, 646 00:37:07,150 --> 00:37:10,460 he listened to me, he heard me out. And then he said, you know, 647 00:37:10,460 --> 00:37:11,260 during this interview, 648 00:37:11,260 --> 00:37:14,260 I've had the prompting to share with you that I think you should wait. 649 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,500 And I don't quite understand all the, that means, 650 00:37:17,700 --> 00:37:20,100 but I am just sharing that with you. 651 00:37:20,100 --> 00:37:23,500 And it was really hard for me to hear that like, 652 00:37:23,500 --> 00:37:28,300 that was really difficult because it felt like it was incredibly contrary 653 00:37:28,790 --> 00:37:32,300 to all the personal revelation that I had been receiving and the long, 654 00:37:32,300 --> 00:37:36,540 long process that I had gone to to get to that point and then to be able to even 655 00:37:36,540 --> 00:37:39,500 share with my Bishop what I was experiencing right. And going through, 656 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:41,620 and my Bishop shared that. 657 00:37:41,620 --> 00:37:45,020 And then he was quiet in that interview and he didn't say anything else. 658 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:50,140 And this is the part that I was so grateful for is it gave me time 659 00:37:50,140 --> 00:37:52,300 to think about what he had just shared. 660 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,740 And then I actually set a prayer in my heart and I was like, heavenly father. 661 00:37:55,740 --> 00:38:00,620 This feels so contrary to what I have received revelation to 662 00:38:00,620 --> 00:38:04,740 move forward with. But I also believe that a Bishop is called of God. 663 00:38:04,790 --> 00:38:07,900 So how do these two things reconcile? Right? 664 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,260 And in that space of that silence and that quiet, 665 00:38:11,260 --> 00:38:14,380 then the spirit was able to speak to me and tell me, Noel, 666 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:18,860 you can follow what he's asking you to do. And so I said, Bishop, 667 00:38:19,170 --> 00:38:22,980 I think that this advice is contrary to personal revelation that I've received, 668 00:38:22,980 --> 00:38:24,380 but I'm willing to be obedient. 669 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,500 And I will wait before I move forward with anything else. And so I did, 670 00:38:28,500 --> 00:38:29,860 I waited another additional, 671 00:38:29,860 --> 00:38:33,580 almost four months before I moved forward with anything with my divorce. 672 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,000 And it was really interesting because in that four month period of time, 673 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:41,480 there were many more things that happened that made it incredibly clear to not 674 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:41,960 only me, 675 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,480 but to my Bishop as well that I was moving forward with the right thing. 676 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,680 But see that time had to happen, you know, 677 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,200 that before that revelation could be received fully. 678 00:38:51,690 --> 00:38:54,000 So I think that as leaders, 679 00:38:54,570 --> 00:38:58,200 we have to leave space and room for, you know, answers to come, 680 00:38:58,200 --> 00:38:59,600 we have to be patient for that. 681 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:04,240 And then we also have to allow for that silence of, so that, you know, 682 00:39:04,340 --> 00:39:07,640 the people that are coming and asking for that help and that support can receive 683 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:07,820 that. 684 00:39:07,820 --> 00:39:11,640 And then also we have to trust that they're receiving personal revelation for 685 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:12,473 their own lives. 686 00:39:12,510 --> 00:39:16,400 Yeah. Yeah. That's so that's so helpful to get that perspective. And, 687 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,640 and I would imagine, and this may be a little tangential, 688 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:23,480 but a lot of these interactions, especially in a leadership experience and, 689 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,360 and how you're, how a leader, you know, 690 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,280 what's the leader's role and how are they helping a lot of times, 691 00:39:28,420 --> 00:39:32,080 the best way they can help is just to really slow down the process. 692 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,960 Cause a lot of these traumatic experiences, it can feel like, well, 693 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,040 I've got a lot of big decisions to make like, 694 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,960 am I moving or what are we doing with the house? And, you know, right. 695 00:39:41,150 --> 00:39:44,920 I need to find an attorney or whatever it is. And there's this feeling of like, 696 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:49,440 I've gotta know by tomorrow these type of questions and sometimes an outside 697 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,440 leader or individual can sort of bring the perspective. Well, 698 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,600 let's just slow it down a little bit. And in this instance, 699 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:57,760 it sounds like almost the spirit through this, 700 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:02,040 these dynamics of you talking to the Bishop found a way to just slow you down a 701 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:06,040 little bit. Oh. So that you could process and it, it still ended up in, 702 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:07,840 you know, maybe the same decision you would've made, 703 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,960 but you were able to process and maybe feel more comfortable with the direction 704 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:12,800 you were headed. Is that safe to say? Absolutely. 705 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:13,310 Yeah. 706 00:40:13,310 --> 00:40:15,120 That was great. Cool, awesome. 707 00:40:15,150 --> 00:40:18,320 I little caveat that I want to ask you about that came to mind. 708 00:40:18,750 --> 00:40:23,400 I remember this one instance I had as a Bishop with a, a man on my ward, 709 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:24,960 who was, he was, I, 710 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,520 I was a Bishop and we had an area with three apartment complexes. 711 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,880 So we got a lot of these like divorcees that were just left a marriage and they 712 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,160 just needed an apartment and they landed in my ward. And so, you know, 713 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,040 I have a lot of conversations around the, 714 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:42,320 the separation and the legal aspects of it. And with this gentleman, 715 00:40:42,530 --> 00:40:45,320 he felt like, and I would probably agree with him. 716 00:40:45,590 --> 00:40:48,200 A lot of his actions contributed to the marriage ending. 717 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,200 Like if he would made a lot of different choices, 718 00:40:50,380 --> 00:40:53,320 the marriage probably could have continued and he didn't make those choices and 719 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,920 this is where he was at. Right, right. And so he felt this a lot of guilt and, 720 00:40:57,010 --> 00:41:00,360 uh, and shame about what he'd done and how it impacted his marriage. 721 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:04,920 And then it led to decisions of, well, you know what, maybe I just feel so bad. 722 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:09,200 I should just give her the whole house and whatever term she wants, you know? 723 00:41:09,380 --> 00:41:12,000 And I sort of paused him and said, Hey, listen, 724 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:13,600 like I get why you're saying that. 725 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,200 And you want to have like this very repentant heart, 726 00:41:16,340 --> 00:41:20,800 but you should really talk to some legal counsel and an, 727 00:41:20,810 --> 00:41:24,680 an attorney to make sure that you don't make decisions that you're gonna regret 728 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,280 later because maybe you shouldn't just give her the house. Maybe there's some, 729 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,840 there's a different pathway and whatnot or things you're not considering that 730 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,200 legal counsel could, could help you with. 731 00:41:34,290 --> 00:41:38,120 So maybe is there anything comes to mind as far as it can seem like in that 732 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:40,640 relationship with a Bishop or a Le a leader, 733 00:41:40,670 --> 00:41:44,880 like you wanna stay on spiritual topics or charity. Yeah. 734 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:46,800 And let's just find love and fill the spirit, 735 00:41:46,940 --> 00:41:50,040 but there's a whole legal dynamic happening here. Yeah. 736 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:51,760 That sometimes doesn't get brought into those. What, 737 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:53,120 what comes to mind as I say all that. 738 00:41:53,510 --> 00:41:55,400 I think that's a hard situation. , 739 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:59,400 that's the first thing that comes to mind, but I, yeah, I would. 740 00:41:59,500 --> 00:42:02,560 And I think you have to be really, really careful as a leader. 741 00:42:03,100 --> 00:42:05,600 And this is where asking questions. Right. 742 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,840 Sometimes we are eager to rush forward with solutions or help. 743 00:42:10,140 --> 00:42:14,320 And I think sometimes it's important to ask questions. 744 00:42:14,810 --> 00:42:18,360 So I think that you did a great job of, you know, asking some questions, 745 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:20,720 you understood where his heart was at in this situation, 746 00:42:20,720 --> 00:42:22,080 he had a very repentant heart, 747 00:42:22,330 --> 00:42:26,680 so he was trying to do anything and everything he could to make that situation 748 00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:31,240 easier. So I think in that situation, it makes sense to, you know, 749 00:42:31,550 --> 00:42:33,200 well, I encourage you. 750 00:42:33,670 --> 00:42:37,920 I applaud that you have this repentant heart and this part we're gonna continue 751 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:39,640 to work through as your Bishop, 752 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,520 I'm gonna continue to help you work through that process. 753 00:42:42,020 --> 00:42:46,320 But from a legal standpoint, I encourage you to talk to legal counsel. 754 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:50,920 Like I think separating those out is really helpful in that, that aspect. Yeah. 755 00:42:50,980 --> 00:42:55,760 And I think it's important. You also have the other end of the spectrum, right? 756 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:57,960 Like where, you know, 757 00:42:58,150 --> 00:43:02,160 I had a situation of a very good friend of mine that shared with me that, 758 00:43:02,260 --> 00:43:05,640 you know, she'd made the decision that she was gonna get divorced and, 759 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,240 and how hard that was and told her, her counselor and, 760 00:43:08,340 --> 00:43:12,000 and her husband and her had been working on counseling together. 761 00:43:12,220 --> 00:43:16,560 And the husband was like, if she tries and, and divorces me, 762 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,680 I'm gonna take everything from her. Right. I'm gonna, you know, 763 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:21,440 decimate her . And, 764 00:43:21,620 --> 00:43:24,240 and then you have a counselor that has this information, right? 765 00:43:24,240 --> 00:43:26,920 Like at least two people that he's trying to counsel together. 766 00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,560 And sometimes that even happens with bishops or others, you know, 767 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,480 with the Saudi presence or somebody that might also be in those situations. 768 00:43:34,660 --> 00:43:39,240 And again, I, I mean, that's, it's very difficult. It's a difficult situation. 769 00:43:39,660 --> 00:43:41,400 And which is why I say, 770 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:46,000 ask questions and refer back to counselors and to legal counsel. And, 771 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,560 and none of those things are things that you, as a leader have to solve. 772 00:43:49,740 --> 00:43:50,240 You know, 773 00:43:50,240 --> 00:43:54,880 your job is to be in a ecclesiastical leader where you're offering support 774 00:43:55,580 --> 00:43:57,920 and focusing on gospel principles. 775 00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:02,080 So when we start to delve into those things that move into other areas, 776 00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:05,280 counseling or legal representation, 777 00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:08,960 it's good to refer those things out. They shouldn't all fall on leaders. 778 00:44:09,430 --> 00:44:12,440 Yeah. And that's a brings up another interesting concept. And, 779 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,520 and I realize know a while I'm asking you impossible questions a lot of the 780 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:17,280 time, and that's sort of my job, but, uh, 781 00:44:17,580 --> 00:44:20,480 any perspective and the experience you have is great. 782 00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,600 I don't expect to have all, all the answers and each situation's so different. 783 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:27,600 Right. But there's this the concept of, of forgiveness, you know, sometimes, 784 00:44:27,860 --> 00:44:31,320 you know, oh, there and doctor comes 64, pretty clear, you know, know, Noelle, 785 00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,600 you gotta forgive that husband of that ex-husband of yours and right. 786 00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:36,760 And you know, there's sometimes these dynamics that are, 787 00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:41,040 that are really sticky and awkward when there's this push of like, well, 788 00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:44,240 you as a Saint need to get to some level of forgiveness here, right. Or, 789 00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:46,120 you know, you, men mentioned this, uh, 790 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:50,280 dynamic of like maybe one individual wants to decimate the other one legally and 791 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:53,400 leave them penny list. And now how are you gonna raise our kids? You know? 792 00:44:53,660 --> 00:44:57,040 And obviously , that's probably not helpful and extreme, but, 793 00:44:57,140 --> 00:45:00,440 and so then it's sort of like, well, no, you need to forgive what's happened. 794 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,040 And so any, any thoughts coming to mind around this, 795 00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:06,560 the doctrine of forgiveness in these really tough situations? 796 00:45:06,870 --> 00:45:07,670 Yeah. 797 00:45:07,670 --> 00:45:11,760 This is something I actually spend two chapters talking about in my book because 798 00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:13,440 it is so important. Lovely. 799 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:18,400 And it gets really confusing because we hear things in our modern day culture of 800 00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:23,320 like forgive and forget and turn the other cheek. And oftentimes, you know, 801 00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:25,640 scriptures and D and C are quoted where, you know, 802 00:45:25,810 --> 00:45:29,960 if you don't forgive the greater sin lies with you, then with a person that, 803 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:34,160 you know, so, so you almost have forgiveness being used as a weapon. 804 00:45:34,620 --> 00:45:38,320 And then that can be really difficult, especially in situations of abuse. 805 00:45:38,700 --> 00:45:43,520 And that means, you know, emotional abuse, physical abuse, financial abuse, 806 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,360 sexual abuse, whatever, you know, one of those, it can be really difficult. 807 00:45:47,410 --> 00:45:48,440 So for me, 808 00:45:49,140 --> 00:45:53,000 the first thing that I had to do was I really had to pray to have a willing 809 00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:57,360 heart in the beginning, I was just struggling so much. 810 00:45:57,540 --> 00:45:58,400 And there were, 811 00:45:58,460 --> 00:46:02,840 was a lot of things that had come to light that were things that I hadn't known 812 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,040 were happening. And that was really hard for me. So it was, you know, 813 00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,520 the process of discovering new information. 814 00:46:08,820 --> 00:46:13,040 And then how does this fit into the ideas that I thought of, 815 00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:17,160 and then how can I possibly forgive this person? And then, you know, 816 00:46:17,220 --> 00:46:21,200 unfortunately, sometimes you don't have like a smooth divorce. 817 00:46:21,310 --> 00:46:26,040 Like a lot of times you have, there's more friction, right. And there's, um, 818 00:46:26,190 --> 00:46:29,320 difficulty with divorced households. 819 00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:33,560 And so then you have these extra layers of, you know, how do I possibly forgive? 820 00:46:33,690 --> 00:46:35,680 So there's a lot of different dynamics. So for me, 821 00:46:35,790 --> 00:46:40,160 I had to go through the process of first having a willing heart. And this, uh, 822 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:44,480 happened for me in, in prayer and actually praying to have a willing heart. 823 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,480 That's where I started. And then as I worked through that process, 824 00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:49,160 there were different things that happened. 825 00:46:49,460 --> 00:46:54,160 And I discussed those things a little bit more in detail just where the Lord was 826 00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:58,840 working on my heart and helping me to be able to process and work through the 827 00:46:58,840 --> 00:46:59,673 different emotions. 828 00:47:00,020 --> 00:47:03,600 And then I kind of went through a period of time where I really needed to 829 00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:04,840 understand, you know, 830 00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:09,480 are these things that I keep hearing turn the other cheek or forgive and forget 831 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:11,960 are those things that are found in the scriptures? 832 00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:14,320 Is that what the Lord is asking me to do? 833 00:47:14,860 --> 00:47:19,680 And so I really started to dive deep into the scriptures to try and 834 00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:24,680 understand the principles of forgiveness and what exactly my heavenly father 835 00:47:24,700 --> 00:47:26,800 and my savior were asking me to do. 836 00:47:27,220 --> 00:47:30,880 And so I found a lot of different scriptures, which were really, really helpful. 837 00:47:31,140 --> 00:47:33,560 And the other half of forgiveness is boundaries. 838 00:47:33,660 --> 00:47:38,000 And we don't talk about this enough in the church, in my opinion. And yeah. 839 00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:38,650 So true. 840 00:47:38,650 --> 00:47:39,840 So true. Yeah. Yeah. 841 00:47:40,130 --> 00:47:43,400 So especially when you are dealing with situations of abuse, 842 00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,480 there has to be boundaries and sometimes there's things that you need to 843 00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:50,400 remember, so that those boundaries keep you safe. Right. 844 00:47:50,860 --> 00:47:53,800 But then also I, as I've gone through this process, 845 00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,360 I've learned that boundaries, when you set healthy boundaries, 846 00:47:56,550 --> 00:48:00,720 then they allow you to be safe enough to be able to work through the process of 847 00:48:00,720 --> 00:48:04,520 forgiveness. So to me, boundaries and forgiveness go hand in hand. 848 00:48:04,900 --> 00:48:09,040 And I think that we in as members of the church, 849 00:48:09,450 --> 00:48:12,720 we want to skip to the good part, right? Like you just need to forgive them, 850 00:48:12,750 --> 00:48:17,000 like, just move on, be happy, forgive it you'll feel so much better. 851 00:48:17,180 --> 00:48:18,600 And all of that is true. 852 00:48:19,060 --> 00:48:23,080 But I think that just like we talked about earlier, 853 00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:26,680 where job's friends sat with him for seven days, right. 854 00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:31,600 They sat with him and they allowed him to fill all of the sorrow and the grief 855 00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:35,320 that he was feeling. And I know later on, they started having a conversation, 856 00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:37,400 but like during that period of time, 857 00:48:37,710 --> 00:48:40,040 they allowed him to feel what he was feeling. 858 00:48:40,380 --> 00:48:43,240 And I think that we do a disservice, 859 00:48:43,240 --> 00:48:48,000 if we skip ahead to the, you'll feel so much better by forgiving, 860 00:48:48,370 --> 00:48:52,760 we know that, you know, we've been taught that. And so I, 861 00:48:52,910 --> 00:48:57,080 yeah, that there, you have to allow people to be angry, 862 00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:01,200 allow them to work through those emotions and recognize that sometimes that 863 00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:05,800 anger is actually part of their healing process and is helping them to recognize 864 00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:10,480 where they need to have healthier boundaries so that they can have room and 865 00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:14,520 space to be able to forgive. So that's a short summary, 866 00:49:14,620 --> 00:49:18,400 but I do spend two chapters talking about it, cuz it's something I feel really, 867 00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:20,120 really strongly about. So. 868 00:49:20,430 --> 00:49:24,040 Yeah, I, then that sounds like a topic worth two chapters or more that. 869 00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:26,760 And cause we often talk about forgiveness, 870 00:49:26,860 --> 00:49:31,120 but it has to be paired up with this concept of boundaries and safety and 871 00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:32,720 whatnot. And yeah, 872 00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:35,920 if people don't and I feel like we could do more through leading saints to 873 00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:37,640 articulate this concept of boundaries, 874 00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,680 cuz it is so powerful once you understand it. 875 00:49:40,780 --> 00:49:44,720 And sometimes we get lost in the gospel of like love and charity towards all. 876 00:49:44,720 --> 00:49:45,800 And you know, 877 00:49:45,970 --> 00:49:50,120 we lose that concept of boundaries that needs to be there in order for the rest 878 00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:52,160 to work, you know, so right. Really helpful. 879 00:49:52,670 --> 00:49:57,080 Talk to me about just your journey with professional counseling and the, 880 00:49:57,340 --> 00:50:00,240 and the Bishop's role and the, your therapist's role. 881 00:50:00,240 --> 00:50:02,760 And was there any type of therapy that worked? 882 00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:07,080 I mean you just go to some talk therapy once a week or so then that seemed to 883 00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:11,240 help you unpack your emotions and, and move forward or, 884 00:50:11,610 --> 00:50:15,000 or just tell me, just lay the foundation of that dynamic in general. 885 00:50:15,390 --> 00:50:19,240 Sure. Well, I grew up in a time that like, uh, 886 00:50:19,240 --> 00:50:23,680 counseling was not as widely talked about and you know, 887 00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:25,960 if you went to counseling, there was something really wrong with you. 888 00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:27,960 You were seriously broken . 889 00:50:28,300 --> 00:50:32,680 And so to be able to start the process of going to counseling, 890 00:50:32,910 --> 00:50:37,000 I actually, uh, for me, there was a lot of different layers to it. 891 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:41,840 I knew that there were many things that I needed to work on personally in my own 892 00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:45,440 life. I had gone through a 12 step program just related to eating. 893 00:50:45,750 --> 00:50:47,360 I talk about this in my book as well. 894 00:50:47,620 --> 00:50:51,520 And that program really helped me to start addressing and looking at, you know, 895 00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:54,480 taking responsibility for my part and then being able to work through my 896 00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:58,320 emotions in healthy ways. And so through that program, 897 00:50:58,510 --> 00:51:02,520 then I came out of that, knowing okay. I really need more help. 898 00:51:02,790 --> 00:51:07,480 Like I have the gospel and the gospel is this wonderful foundation for me. 899 00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:10,080 And then this is the 12 step program has been another layer, 900 00:51:10,340 --> 00:51:14,560 but I actually need more help kind of working through some of these things, 901 00:51:14,910 --> 00:51:17,480 coping mechanisms that I've learned, you know, 902 00:51:17,730 --> 00:51:21,440 at a young age and then have continued to carry through through adulthood. 903 00:51:21,460 --> 00:51:25,600 And so that was really the beginning of me going to counseling. 904 00:51:25,860 --> 00:51:30,360 And then as I went to counseling, I started to notice that there were things in, 905 00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:34,360 within my marriage that I had kind of ignored before, 906 00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:36,120 cuz I wasn't ready to address them. 907 00:51:36,380 --> 00:51:39,600 But as I worked on myself and then with counseling, 908 00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,200 I really wanted to work through these things with my marriage. 909 00:51:42,450 --> 00:51:46,640 So then I invited my, uh, husband at the time to join me for counseling. And, 910 00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:50,280 and so then we started doing counseling together and that lasted for 911 00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:51,720 unfortunately only a short time, 912 00:51:51,720 --> 00:51:55,760 but I continued to go and felt like it was really helpful to me. 913 00:51:56,210 --> 00:51:59,320 It was more than just talking about things for me. 914 00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:01,920 It was actively having things to work on. 915 00:52:01,990 --> 00:52:06,800 I had a counselor that really understood my personality well 916 00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:09,000 that I needed active things to work on. 917 00:52:09,570 --> 00:52:13,720 So as I went through this process of counseling with him, he encouraged me. 918 00:52:13,720 --> 00:52:16,120 I was really struggling with my self-esteem and self-worth. 919 00:52:16,610 --> 00:52:21,600 So he encouraged me to do my young women's medallion again. 920 00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:24,000 And I had been serving in the state young women's. 921 00:52:24,180 --> 00:52:27,440 And so that was the program at the time. 922 00:52:27,900 --> 00:52:31,920 And so I actually started doing that program again and that was fantastic for 923 00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:36,840 me. And it really helped me remind me of my divine worth and 924 00:52:37,180 --> 00:52:41,960 who I was as a daughter of God and that continued to help me. 925 00:52:42,020 --> 00:52:46,840 And so I received my medallion and then, you know, I was an, 926 00:52:46,910 --> 00:52:51,520 I am an avid journal writer and so my counselor recognized this. 927 00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,240 So he would often challenge me with things, you know, 928 00:52:54,240 --> 00:52:56,200 like to write about in my journal. 929 00:52:56,460 --> 00:53:01,440 And so he worked within things that were already strengths for me and things 930 00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:03,840 that were comfortable for me and with my personality. 931 00:53:04,220 --> 00:53:09,040 And I continued to go to counseling up until I moved from that area. 932 00:53:09,620 --> 00:53:12,760 And then I had a short break for a while and I actually went back to counseling 933 00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:17,240 because I find it's really helpful to be able to have someone else to 934 00:53:17,240 --> 00:53:22,040 talk through what you're thinking, but then also to receive action, 935 00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:26,080 to be able to move forward, to continue to be, you know, 936 00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:30,400 with healing and have it be something that is a positive momentum in your life. 937 00:53:30,850 --> 00:53:32,920 So my career, 938 00:53:32,990 --> 00:53:37,240 I guess of having counseling has been like a decade, but it's, 939 00:53:37,240 --> 00:53:39,400 it's made a huge difference for me in my own life. 940 00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:42,680 So to me it's more than just talking about things. 941 00:53:42,870 --> 00:53:47,720 I think that good counseling encourages you to stretch and to 942 00:53:47,720 --> 00:53:48,210 grow, 943 00:53:48,210 --> 00:53:53,200 do things that are uncomfortable and challenging to become better 944 00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:55,080 and to be able to, you know, 945 00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:58,120 take responsibility for the things that you can in your life and be able to 946 00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:01,000 change those, to become a greater disciple of Christ. 947 00:54:01,390 --> 00:54:04,520 Yeah. And did those two worlds, as far as your, 948 00:54:04,900 --> 00:54:07,640 the work you were doing through your therapist and then the conversations you 949 00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:11,640 had with your Bishop or Lisa president, did those ever mix or like, 950 00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:14,800 did your Bishop inquire, you know, how's your therapy going? What, 951 00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:17,440 what are they telling you to do? Is that helping? I mean it was, 952 00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:18,840 did that ever happen? Yeah. 953 00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:22,880 Actually I had, my first counselor was through LDS social services. 954 00:54:23,340 --> 00:54:27,360 And so actually my counselor asked me in the beginning, 955 00:54:27,660 --> 00:54:31,800 are you comfortable with me sharing things that I think will be helpful with 956 00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:35,520 your Bishop? Cuz he knew that I was meeting with my Bishop as well. And I said, 957 00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:37,560 yes, I was very comfortable with that. 958 00:54:37,610 --> 00:54:41,440 So I know that there were at times things that, you know, 959 00:54:41,690 --> 00:54:44,480 my counselor shared with my Bishop about my progress, 960 00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:48,680 which I think were helpful for him because my Bishop was meeting with both my 961 00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:52,680 husband and I at that time. And sometimes that happens simultaneously. 962 00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:54,240 Sometimes that happened separately. 963 00:54:54,420 --> 00:54:58,200 And I think this is a really helpful thing as leaders because sometimes we only 964 00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:02,120 get to hear one part of the story or there's holes in a story. 965 00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:06,960 And then we're trying to fill in and counsel and advise with only having 966 00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:10,680 part of this story. So in my situation, 967 00:55:11,030 --> 00:55:14,880 I had a counselor that was communicating with my Bishop and then my Bishop and 968 00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:17,560 my really society president were having, you know, their PPI. 969 00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:20,360 And so then they were also communicating those things. 970 00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:22,400 So that worked very well for me, 971 00:55:22,740 --> 00:55:26,400 but I have seen where it doesn't work as well, you know, 972 00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:29,680 for other leaders that maybe don't have that full transparency. 973 00:55:30,650 --> 00:55:34,080 So that can be a difficult and tricky thing to navigate, 974 00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:39,080 especially when you're not sure how much of what you're hearing is true or 975 00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:43,080 what is, you know, the actionable steps that you need to take as a leader. 976 00:55:43,570 --> 00:55:48,560 So I think that that is where we as leaders really have to pray for that gift 977 00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:52,800 of discernment and do a lot of hard listening to the spirit 978 00:55:53,300 --> 00:55:56,320 and also, you know, to the people that we are trying to help. 979 00:55:56,470 --> 00:55:58,800 Yeah. I, I really appreciate that. And you know, going, 980 00:55:58,850 --> 00:56:02,280 it goes back to what we talked about earlier, just that flexibility, you know, 981 00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:05,440 if it, if it helps for your Bishop or at least today, 982 00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:09,560 president to inquire about your therapy or for you to talk about it, you know, 983 00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:12,960 do it, if not, you know, again, the boundaries thing, maybe you can say, yeah, 984 00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:17,000 you know, Bishop, I therapy's going great. We're handling things there with you. 985 00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:20,520 I'd just love to talk about my spiritual journey or I need some help with, 986 00:56:20,580 --> 00:56:23,720 you know, bills or whatnot. Let's just talk about that or, you know yeah. 987 00:56:23,720 --> 00:56:26,120 And it's okay to keep those worlds SEP separate as well, 988 00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:28,240 but sometimes it's helpful to, to combine them. Right? 989 00:56:28,500 --> 00:56:33,480 Yes. And I think that as saints, we need to not be afraid to ask for, 990 00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:37,400 for what we need. I think that leaders and those that love us, 991 00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:39,640 that they are eager and so willing to help. 992 00:56:39,980 --> 00:56:44,440 And I think that when we can articulate what we really need and sometimes that's 993 00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:48,480 hard, sometimes it's hard to do in the middle of it, but that's that pausing. 994 00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:50,320 Right. And taking some time for things. 995 00:56:50,930 --> 00:56:54,720 So if we are willing to pause and take some time and really think about what is 996 00:56:54,720 --> 00:56:58,280 it that I need for my Bishop, what is it I need for my really society present? 997 00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:02,680 What is it I need for my ministering sisters or brothers and then to not be 998 00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:03,880 afraid to ask for that. 999 00:57:04,150 --> 00:57:07,760 Yeah, really that question of what do you need? Both, 1000 00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:11,600 whether you're asking others or asking yourself can be super powerful, you know, 1001 00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:13,600 that can then lead to actually, 1002 00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:16,480 I need you to just not call me every day or actually do need you to call me 1003 00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:19,160 every day or you know, whatever it is, right. Yeah. Yes. 1004 00:57:19,180 --> 00:57:23,240 And then you can go from there. So the last principle you've had to hear is, uh, 1005 00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:25,600 use single brothers and sisters in service. 1006 00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:28,840 And this is sort of a general message we hear over and over again. 1007 00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:32,240 How did that manifest itself or help you or not help you in your, 1008 00:57:32,270 --> 00:57:33,103 your own journey? 1009 00:57:33,310 --> 00:57:35,160 Yeah, this was really great. 1010 00:57:35,870 --> 00:57:40,720 I immediately was put into a calling where I got to teach and I 1011 00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:44,240 love teaching. Um, that's something I, I feel very passionately about. 1012 00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:48,440 It's probably my favorite calling besides nursery because nursery is the best 1013 00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:50,880 calling in at all. So. 1014 00:57:51,230 --> 00:57:52,240 Nice. Yeah. 1015 00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:54,200 so I did, 1016 00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:59,040 I did get to teach right away and this helped me because I got to interact with 1017 00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:03,760 the sisters and share some of the hope and the healing that I was experiencing. 1018 00:58:04,660 --> 00:58:08,720 And I think sometimes we are afraid to share 1019 00:58:09,390 --> 00:58:12,800 some of the hard things that we go through, but that vulnerability, 1020 00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:14,360 when we're able to be vulnerable, 1021 00:58:14,630 --> 00:58:17,120 that's when you start to feel unified as award. 1022 00:58:17,620 --> 00:58:22,600 And so putting me in a position where I was able to teach and share some of 1023 00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:26,240 those, and again, I focused on the hope and the healing that I was experiencing. 1024 00:58:27,180 --> 00:58:31,280 And then that opened the door for other sisters to feel like they didn't have to 1025 00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:33,720 be perfect either. Here was, you know, 1026 00:58:34,110 --> 00:58:38,920 Noel teaching and she's newly divorced and she's working through 1027 00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:43,240 the process. Right. And I think that sometimes as leaders, 1028 00:58:43,290 --> 00:58:45,720 we are like, oh, they've got so much on their plate. 1029 00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:49,520 We don't wanna ask anything more of them. And I think, again, 1030 00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:52,400 it's that going back and asking those questions, you know, 1031 00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:56,240 would you like to hold a calling right now? We could definitely use you. 1032 00:58:56,630 --> 00:59:00,200 What would be your ideal calling right now and asking some of those things? 1033 00:59:00,750 --> 00:59:03,000 I think callings are definitely inspired, 1034 00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:05,400 but sometimes callings are also practical. 1035 00:59:05,980 --> 00:59:10,760 And so having a mix of those and not being afraid 1036 00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:13,800 to ask, because I did need like a good six month break. 1037 00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:15,400 I didn't hold a calling for six months, 1038 00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:19,160 which was the longest I'd ever not held a calling in my life. 1039 00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:23,630 And so it was actually really nice of to have a break and to be able, 1040 00:59:23,630 --> 00:59:28,230 just to focus on going to church and getting to be in the congregation. 1041 00:59:28,450 --> 00:59:31,550 And then there came a point where I was like, I am ready to hold a calling. 1042 00:59:31,860 --> 00:59:35,550 I want to, so then I went to my Bishop and I said, I'm ready to hold a calling. 1043 00:59:35,550 --> 00:59:38,830 And he was like, great. And you know, that really society president said, 1044 00:59:38,830 --> 00:59:40,590 wonderful. We're gonna put her right in. 1045 00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:43,990 So I think that we need to ask questions, 1046 00:59:44,380 --> 00:59:48,070 find out where they're at. If they want to serve, let them serve. 1047 00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:52,550 If they don't wanna serve right now, then don't have 'em serve right now. 1048 00:59:52,570 --> 00:59:55,510 And again, it goes back to the flexibility, right. 1049 00:59:55,930 --> 01:00:00,910 And being willing to help them support them in the way that they need 1050 01:00:00,910 --> 01:00:02,110 to be supported in a calling. 1051 01:00:02,420 --> 01:00:05,790 Yeah. And I love that in the context of a calling that, you know, that's, 1052 01:00:05,810 --> 01:00:10,550 you know, we talk about these outside sources or distractions that, that, 1053 01:00:10,550 --> 01:00:14,550 that some things can be, but a calling could be such a blessing of, of, and, 1054 01:00:14,550 --> 01:00:17,870 and something in a leader could really do or, or a range. 1055 01:00:17,870 --> 01:00:20,870 And orchestrate that to say, Hey, you know what, Noel, 1056 01:00:20,870 --> 01:00:23,630 what do you really enjoy doing in the ward? Do you want to teach? Like, 1057 01:00:23,630 --> 01:00:25,670 let's have you teach for, for a while. 1058 01:00:25,730 --> 01:00:29,430 And then at least you look forward to church on Sunday, right? Yeah. 1059 01:00:29,430 --> 01:00:30,990 And maybe there's others who are like, oh, I, 1060 01:00:30,990 --> 01:00:34,390 I just cannot handle that pressure of teaching right now. And great, you know, 1061 01:00:34,390 --> 01:00:34,870 well, what, 1062 01:00:34,870 --> 01:00:39,030 where can we use you so that this church experience is a blessing to you rather 1063 01:00:39,030 --> 01:00:42,990 than, and there's, there's this natural, you know, knee jerk reaction of like, 1064 01:00:42,990 --> 01:00:44,510 okay, Noel's going through a lot. 1065 01:00:44,710 --> 01:00:49,270 Let's not burden her with any other responsibility when in reality, some of 'em, 1066 01:00:49,270 --> 01:00:51,750 some individuals really need that. You know, they need that purpose. 1067 01:00:51,750 --> 01:00:56,110 They need to escape from the drama of their, their divorce. 1068 01:00:56,170 --> 01:00:57,230 And just say, you know, 1069 01:00:57,230 --> 01:00:59,870 I could teach the kids on Sunday and I'm really looking forward to that. 1070 01:00:59,870 --> 01:01:00,910 And I need that. Right? 1071 01:01:01,130 --> 01:01:06,030 Yes, absolutely. I also think later on I, after several years, 1072 01:01:06,030 --> 01:01:08,350 I was actually called to serve in young women's. 1073 01:01:08,610 --> 01:01:11,910 And I remember telling the counselor of the Bishop brick, 1074 01:01:11,910 --> 01:01:13,430 who extended the calling to me. I'm like, 1075 01:01:13,490 --> 01:01:18,190 you do know that my life is not the ideal . And he said, yeah, 1076 01:01:18,340 --> 01:01:23,270 I do. And I said, well, I worry. I have these sweet, you know, 1077 01:01:23,630 --> 01:01:27,670 13, 14 year old girls. I just don't know if that would be helpful to them. And, 1078 01:01:27,670 --> 01:01:28,710 and he said, actually, 1079 01:01:28,710 --> 01:01:32,030 it's your life experiences that will be most helpful for them. 1080 01:01:32,260 --> 01:01:35,830 They need to see a woman who, uh, 1081 01:01:35,830 --> 01:01:38,550 has gone through really hard things and depends on the Lord. 1082 01:01:38,810 --> 01:01:42,070 And that meant it actually makes me really emotional even now, 1083 01:01:42,210 --> 01:01:45,870 but that meant so much to me, that they, as, um, leaders, 1084 01:01:45,870 --> 01:01:50,670 that they recognized how this trial had honed me 1085 01:01:50,850 --> 01:01:55,270 and helped me strengthen me to become a better disciple of Christ. 1086 01:01:55,270 --> 01:01:59,990 And then they also felt like I had something of worth than to share with others, 1087 01:01:59,990 --> 01:02:04,150 even though my life didn't look like the ideal or what we, you know, 1088 01:02:04,150 --> 01:02:05,790 hope for each of our children, 1089 01:02:06,290 --> 01:02:10,510 but showed the gospel actively working in my life, 1090 01:02:10,900 --> 01:02:12,550 even through the messy parts, 1091 01:02:12,550 --> 01:02:16,350 which I think is a really powerful testimony to our youth. 1092 01:02:16,820 --> 01:02:21,040 Yeah, no, I love that even, you know, not shying away from these, you know, 1093 01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:25,200 quote unquote influential callings, especially with youth. And, and I think, 1094 01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:27,640 you know, I hear this happening still and I hope we're, 1095 01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:30,160 we're moving past it as a religious community, 1096 01:02:30,160 --> 01:02:34,360 but just saying like what a great opportunity to put someone like Noel in this 1097 01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:36,960 place of influence where, you know, 1098 01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:39,960 she's gone through some messy experiences, 1099 01:02:40,220 --> 01:02:45,080 but her faith resides and continues and she found peace through 1100 01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:46,600 that faith. And that's exactly the, 1101 01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:49,200 the core of the lesson we want these young women to learn. 1102 01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:51,520 And so let's go for it, you know? Yeah. 1103 01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:51,920 Really helpful. 1104 01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:55,960 Yeah. All right, Noah, what else? Um, I've got a few more questions for you, 1105 01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:59,320 but any other general principle or concept that we didn't touch on that you 1106 01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:00,960 wanna make sure we hit before we wrap up or. 1107 01:03:01,090 --> 01:03:02,720 No, do it. I think that's great. Yeah. 1108 01:03:02,950 --> 01:03:07,240 Cool. So how would you suggest, like from a leadership standpoint, 1109 01:03:07,540 --> 01:03:12,240 how would be a good use of leaders to, to utilize this book? 1110 01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:14,840 I mean, maybe a sister who's going through a divorce, you know, 1111 01:03:14,990 --> 01:03:18,400 give it to her for, for time or how would you suggest? 1112 01:03:18,710 --> 01:03:19,490 Yeah, 1113 01:03:19,490 --> 01:03:23,520 so I think there's a couple of different ways and my book is widely available. 1114 01:03:23,620 --> 01:03:26,800 You can request it Barnes and noble. It's on Amazon, it's at the church, 1115 01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:30,680 bookstores, all those different places. So it is easily accessible, 1116 01:03:30,780 --> 01:03:33,760 but as far as leaders, I think reading it, the thing that, 1117 01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:38,680 it's an interesting thing. Um, I've had a, a mix of emotions, 1118 01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:42,640 you know, from people who are going through divorce, they are like, 1119 01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:45,000 this is the book that I was looking for. Thank you so much. 1120 01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:48,680 And then I have other people who have read it because they love me and they're 1121 01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:51,920 happy and their marriage is right. And they always kind of are like, you know, 1122 01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:54,840 they have it on their nightstand and they have to have like a sticky note on it. 1123 01:03:54,840 --> 01:03:58,040 And like, don't worry, I'm just reading this for Noel, you know, something, 1124 01:03:58,060 --> 01:04:01,880 you know, like they don't like, I, I had a girlfriend who was like, 1125 01:04:01,910 --> 01:04:04,880 I didn't want my housekeeper to think that my husband and I were having a 1126 01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:08,680 difficult time. And I, you know, so there, there's kind of that caveat of like, 1127 01:04:08,830 --> 01:04:11,800 I don't know if I really wanna read this. And, and the other thing is people, 1128 01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:13,880 you know, get nervous about like, well, are there, 1129 01:04:14,140 --> 01:04:17,480 are there nitty gritty details? You know, cuz cuz that's not helpful or healing. 1130 01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:19,720 And so a couple things to know about my book is, 1131 01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:23,280 is that I really focus on the hope and the healing in the gospel of Jesus 1132 01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:27,080 Christ. I share my story, my process of going through this. 1133 01:04:27,460 --> 01:04:31,520 And because I feel like sometimes when you get into the nitty gritty details of 1134 01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:35,320 things, like then you lose the healing power. And so for me, 1135 01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:40,040 I am very careful and also I have children that I never wanted them 1136 01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:43,920 to pick up my book and, and feel like, oh, there's something, you know, 1137 01:04:44,100 --> 01:04:48,240 bad or unhappy or, or sad about their, their father in there. 1138 01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:51,280 That's important to me. So, um, the first thing is, 1139 01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:52,680 is the book is very uplifting. 1140 01:04:53,100 --> 01:04:57,800 And I found that a lot of my friends who had not experienced, divorced, 1141 01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:01,080 being divorced, that when they read it, they were just amazed. 1142 01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:03,080 And they were like, I didn't know that that's how you felt. 1143 01:05:03,350 --> 01:05:05,160 I didn't even think I had one of my friends who said, 1144 01:05:05,160 --> 01:05:07,720 I didn't even think about the fact that you had to sit by yourself at church. 1145 01:05:07,990 --> 01:05:11,680 That must have been terrible. Right? She's like, I, I never thought. And we had, 1146 01:05:11,780 --> 01:05:12,280 you know, 1147 01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:16,080 we had three or four sisters in our ward at the time that were divorced and she 1148 01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:17,760 was like, they're sitting, sitting by themselves. 1149 01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:21,360 And so she started looking for those sisters to invite them, 1150 01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:23,520 to sit with her so that they were not by themselves. 1151 01:05:24,010 --> 01:05:28,120 So I think that there's a great awareness that comes from reading this book of 1152 01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:32,800 seeing maybe some needs that you may, if you haven't experienced that trial, 1153 01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:37,120 you wouldn't know to look for. And so I've heard really good feedback from that. 1154 01:05:37,140 --> 01:05:41,360 And then also the other feedback that I've heard is is that it's got great 1155 01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:43,800 examples of how to work through trials, 1156 01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:48,120 whether it's divorce or not just good life examples. So as a leader, 1157 01:05:48,150 --> 01:05:51,760 I think read it so that you can understand what it is that you're recommending 1158 01:05:51,940 --> 01:05:56,440 and then yeah, don't be afraid to recommend if it's helpful to them. 1159 01:05:56,500 --> 01:05:59,040 You know, and sometimes again, it's that asking questions. 1160 01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:02,800 So what would be helpful to you, uh, would resources be helpful to you, 1161 01:06:03,020 --> 01:06:07,040 you know, having some books or some different podcasts or, you know, 1162 01:06:07,040 --> 01:06:09,240 even there's some LDS, uh, 1163 01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:11,920 divorce groups on Facebook and different things like that. 1164 01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:16,000 There's lots and lots of different resources for people to be able to go to 1165 01:06:16,550 --> 01:06:19,400 when they're going through something like that. So sometimes it's like, 1166 01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:23,680 do you need resources and asking that kind of question first. So, 1167 01:06:23,780 --> 01:06:27,680 but I would really encourage whether you've been through a divorce or not. 1168 01:06:28,030 --> 01:06:29,480 It's a great book to read, 1169 01:06:29,610 --> 01:06:34,160 to understand how to work through a difficult trial and learn to 1170 01:06:34,670 --> 01:06:38,960 grow your roots deeper and to become a better disciple of Jesus Christ. 1171 01:06:39,430 --> 01:06:41,840 Love it. That's really helpful. Well, 1172 01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:43,640 last question I have for you at Noel is as you, 1173 01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:47,520 you reflect back on just this journey of writing the book and obviously going 1174 01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:50,400 through, uh, a divorce and uh, now you know, 1175 01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:54,200 that that happy report that you did remarry, you're not still on that mission, 1176 01:06:54,200 --> 01:06:58,200 which you did marry. So the last question I have, I guess, 1177 01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:01,400 is as you reflect on all that and going through this journey of writing a book, 1178 01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:05,160 how has this made you become a better disciple of Jesus Christ? 1179 01:07:05,390 --> 01:07:07,680 That's a great question. I will say, 1180 01:07:07,950 --> 01:07:11,240 I will just tell anybody I'm gonna tell you the ending of my book. 1181 01:07:11,330 --> 01:07:13,280 It does not end with me getting remarried. 1182 01:07:13,710 --> 01:07:18,680 I ended my book actually while I was single because I felt like that was 1183 01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:23,120 really important. The goal was not to get remarried. That was a wonderful gift. 1184 01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:27,840 And I actually plan on writing a second book about the experience of blending a 1185 01:07:27,840 --> 01:07:29,320 family and, and going through that. 1186 01:07:30,140 --> 01:07:34,080 But that's in the works it's a few years out, but anyway, 1187 01:07:34,130 --> 01:07:38,360 so I think it's important to know the book doesn't end with a happily ever after 1188 01:07:39,610 --> 01:07:44,520 it ends with me happy and content in the gospel of Jesus Christ 1189 01:07:44,520 --> 01:07:45,400 as a single woman. 1190 01:07:45,780 --> 01:07:50,440 But you asked how did this process make me become a better disciple of Christ? 1191 01:07:51,100 --> 01:07:55,320 And the first thing that I would share with that is that my divorce 1192 01:07:56,030 --> 01:08:00,640 made me dismantle ideas in my head of 1193 01:08:00,670 --> 01:08:05,600 what I thought it meant to be a covenant keeping woman 1194 01:08:05,600 --> 01:08:06,300 of God. 1195 01:08:06,300 --> 01:08:11,200 And I had to look at each of those things and really address, you know, 1196 01:08:11,470 --> 01:08:14,880 what was my testimony in. And as I was, 1197 01:08:14,920 --> 01:08:17,120 was living the gospel to the best of my ability, 1198 01:08:17,340 --> 01:08:19,160 who was I becoming in the process. 1199 01:08:19,940 --> 01:08:22,400 And so as I asked myself those questions, 1200 01:08:22,400 --> 01:08:27,040 then I was able to make choices in my life that helped me to 1201 01:08:27,440 --> 01:08:31,400 start to focus on how I can become a better disciple of Christ. 1202 01:08:31,850 --> 01:08:36,240 My divorce taught me to be more empathetic and compassionate, 1203 01:08:36,770 --> 01:08:40,520 to have more grace and unconditional love. 1204 01:08:41,070 --> 01:08:44,240 It's been very humbling experience for me, 1205 01:08:44,820 --> 01:08:49,080 and this is not the way that I wish I could have learned these lessons, 1206 01:08:49,700 --> 01:08:54,520 but I am grateful to my heavenly father and my 1207 01:08:54,520 --> 01:08:55,440 savior, Jesus Christ, 1208 01:08:55,780 --> 01:09:00,680 who have the divine ability to be able to take 1209 01:09:00,680 --> 01:09:05,560 the hardest and most difficult things in our lives and to make them work for 1210 01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:10,120 our good. And that's one of the things that our covenants do for this us. 1211 01:09:10,120 --> 01:09:14,640 And this is one thing we really haven't talked about that I do talk about a lot 1212 01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:19,400 in my book is covenants and the power of our covenants and how they enable us 1213 01:09:19,400 --> 01:09:22,880 and bless us in amazing ways. So through my divorce, 1214 01:09:23,030 --> 01:09:27,960 I came to appreciate my covenants more and how they were between me and my 1215 01:09:27,960 --> 01:09:28,620 savior. 1216 01:09:28,620 --> 01:09:33,280 And they were less about my marriage and they were that 1217 01:09:33,640 --> 01:09:37,400 personal relationship and how I was showing up as a disciple of Christ. 1218 01:09:38,010 --> 01:09:40,360 So my divorce has taught me many, 1219 01:09:40,360 --> 01:09:45,240 many lessons and has helped me to become a better disciple of Christ 1220 01:09:45,660 --> 01:09:48,280 and to know with as assurety, 1221 01:09:48,550 --> 01:09:51,640 that there's nothing that can be so broken, 1222 01:09:51,640 --> 01:09:54,320 that can't be healed through the atonement of Jesus Christ. 1223 01:10:02,030 --> 01:10:04,840 That concludes this episode of the leading saints podcast. 1224 01:10:04,870 --> 01:10:08,000 We'd love to hear from you about your questions or thoughts or comments. 1225 01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:09,600 You can either leave a comment on the, uh, 1226 01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:13,760 post related to this episode@leadingsaints.org or go to leading 1227 01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:17,600 saints.org/contact and send us your perspective or questions. 1228 01:10:17,690 --> 01:10:21,040 If there's other episodes or topics you'd like to hear on the leading saints 1229 01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:21,250 podcast, 1230 01:10:21,250 --> 01:10:25,240 go to leading saints.org/contact and share with us the information there. 1231 01:10:25,300 --> 01:10:29,320 And we would love for you to share this with any individual you think this would 1232 01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:29,760 apply to, 1233 01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:33,320 especially maybe individuals in your ward council or other leaders that you may 1234 01:10:33,320 --> 01:10:36,680 know who would really appreciate the perspectives that we discussed. 1235 01:10:36,860 --> 01:10:39,680 And remember to review the mentally healthy saints library, 1236 01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:43,840 click the link in the show notes, or go to leading saints.org/fourteen. 1237 01:10:53,330 --> 01:10:57,000 It came as a result of the position of leadership, 1238 01:10:57,080 --> 01:11:00,840 which was imposed upon us by the God of heaven, 1239 01:11:00,840 --> 01:11:05,800 who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. 1240 01:11:06,380 --> 01:11:11,240 And when the declaration was made concerning the own and only true 1241 01:11:11,240 --> 01:11:13,920 and living church upon the face of the earth, 1242 01:11:14,530 --> 01:11:18,040 we were immediately put in a position of loneliness, 1243 01:11:18,100 --> 01:11:23,040 the loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run 1244 01:11:23,040 --> 01:11:28,000 away and to which we must face up with boldness and courage 1245 01:11:28,460 --> 01:11:29,550 and ability.