1 00:00:01,830 --> 00:00:04,880 You're about to hear a conversation with Tony over bay, 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,880 a phenomenal marriage and family therapist out in California. 3 00:00:07,940 --> 00:00:12,480 And we actually had Tony over bay come out to Utah a few months ago 4 00:00:12,540 --> 00:00:16,640 and do a three, four hour presentation. That was phenomenal. 5 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,320 So if you listen to this episode and you like what you hear, 6 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:21,960 you can go to leading saints.org/fourteen. 7 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:26,480 That'll give you access to our full core leader library for 14 days. 8 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:30,560 That'll give you plenty of time to go through the additional content that Tony 9 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,040 over bay has created in our leading saints live content. And, uh, 10 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,560 it is worth a listen and it's all video and whatnot, and he always makes it fun. 11 00:00:37,970 --> 00:00:42,480 So if you want to hear more of Tony, go to leading saints.org/fourteen, 12 00:00:42,540 --> 00:00:45,360 and you'll also get our full library of content. 13 00:00:45,380 --> 00:00:49,040 All of our virtual summits on helping individuals overcome pornography, 14 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,080 helping individuals with faith crises, all of it. 15 00:00:52,150 --> 00:00:56,320 It's a phenomenal library that you must experience for at least 14 days. 16 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,480 So go to leading saints.org/fourteen. 17 00:01:02,420 --> 00:01:06,280 All right, let's go around the room. Do some introductions. I'll start. 18 00:01:06,410 --> 00:01:10,560 So my name is Kurt Frankum. I am the executive director of leading saints, 19 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:15,440 which is a 5 0 1 C three nonprofit organization. And we are dedicated, you know, 20 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:19,600 have a mission here to help latter day saints be better prepared to lead. Now, 21 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:23,680 me personally, I live in Stansberry park, Utah, which is in Toula county. 22 00:01:23,910 --> 00:01:28,200 I grew up in west valley city and I've been running leading saints really since 23 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:30,480 2010, when it started out as a hobby blog, 24 00:01:30,540 --> 00:01:34,800 2014 is when the podcast started and now we are over 10 million 25 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:36,920 downloads. And, uh, man, 26 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:41,000 we're glad that you are now one of those downloads let's jump in. 27 00:01:44,500 --> 00:01:48,320 Hey everyone. This is Kurt Frankum with the leading saints podcast. And well, 28 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:52,720 you might also be listening to this on the virtual couch podcast because this is 29 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:57,120 a SEL cast SEL cast SEL cast. That's right. So Tony over bay came to salt lake. 30 00:01:57,170 --> 00:01:59,240 We met up and I just said, Tony, 31 00:01:59,610 --> 00:02:03,920 we could probably think of a phenomenal outline of what we could talk about, 32 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:08,200 but let's definitely not do that because what typically happens when Tony and I 33 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:12,080 get together is we have an outline and then we completely stray from that 34 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:16,240 outline. So we met up and I didn't even let him, you know, do small talk. 35 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,720 We just, I sat him down and said, here's your mic. Let's go and away. We went. 36 00:02:19,940 --> 00:02:23,360 And there's so much to listen for in this conversation. 37 00:02:23,450 --> 00:02:27,400 We talk about what is it like for an individual to walk into a therapist office 38 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:29,800 as opposed to walking into a Bishop's office? 39 00:02:29,980 --> 00:02:34,880 And what should we look for in those interactions of when we go to a leader or 40 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,640 a therapist and getting help overcoming a problem, and how does that differ? 41 00:02:38,640 --> 00:02:41,520 And what can we learn from that? How do we diffuse the shame of it? 42 00:02:41,700 --> 00:02:45,480 And you know, when sins involved and whatnot in phenomenal discussion, 43 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:47,440 then we jump into his experience. 44 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:51,400 Talking about narcissism on the waking up the narcissist. 45 00:02:51,570 --> 00:02:53,600 Is that the name of the podcast? Tony? I don't know. 46 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:54,800 We'll link to it in the show notes, 47 00:02:54,900 --> 00:02:57,720 but this is a little bit different of an episode where, like I said, 48 00:02:57,720 --> 00:02:59,800 we didn't have necessarily a set outline, 49 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,120 but we sit down together as friends and as people, 50 00:03:02,190 --> 00:03:06,520 very passionate about therapy and leadership and helping people find 51 00:03:06,780 --> 00:03:11,280 joy and happiness and redemption in life. And we start talking about it. 52 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:12,440 So I'd love to hear your feedback. 53 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,480 We sometimes stray a little bit or go down some warm holes that, 54 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:17,880 but we always bring it back. So I'd love your feedback. 55 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:22,240 If you like these Kurt and Tony get together and geek out about therapy related 56 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:26,160 topics, uh, let us know. We'd love to get your feedback or maybe you hate it. 57 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:27,360 This is a long episode. 58 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,800 So we're probably gonna split it up in a couple parts maybe. 59 00:03:29,940 --> 00:03:31,560 And if you don't like it, like let us know. 60 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:35,800 We'd love the feedback or maybe every six months or so. When Tony comes to town, 61 00:03:36,010 --> 00:03:38,240 we get together and we do this again. Uh, 62 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,440 cuz there's always something fascinating to talk about and learn from. 63 00:03:41,610 --> 00:03:45,920 So here is, well, my conversation with Tony over bay, 64 00:03:45,940 --> 00:03:49,720 the host of the virtual couch podcast, talking to me, Kurt, 65 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:53,200 Frankum the host of the leading saints podcast. Let's go. 66 00:04:03,050 --> 00:04:07,720 We are in Sandy, Utah. Yeah. In salt lake city and Tony you're in town. 67 00:04:07,810 --> 00:04:09,480 We thought, well, let's just get in a room. Yeah. 68 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:10,800 Get some mics and start talking. 69 00:04:10,860 --> 00:04:13,480 And you literally walked in here three minutes ago. 70 00:04:13,590 --> 00:04:15,160 I put a mic in front of you and said, oh. 71 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:15,640 I see what you're doing. 72 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:18,360 Record. Okay. Because I actually, I don't know if you know, gain Lynn K. 73 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:19,760 Oh I do. Yeah. She's. 74 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,320 Fantastic. I was on, uh, her the middle. Oh. 75 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:22,520 You. 76 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:24,960 Were. Yeah. And I did a Instagram live and I need to get her. 77 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:26,680 She's gonna come do an episode to mine. 78 00:04:26,850 --> 00:04:29,080 So I went to her house and to record, 79 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:33,040 she wrote a new book and we talked for 90, almost two, 80 00:04:33,140 --> 00:04:37,240 two hours before we hit record. And I was like, man, we've talked about, 81 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,320 so she's good stuff. So I'm not gonna follow that trap. I'm just gonna hit it. 82 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:42,640 And we can, okay. If you wanna talk about your mom for a bit, 83 00:04:42,690 --> 00:04:44,120 we can do that and then edit it out. 84 00:04:44,150 --> 00:04:48,680 I'll do it later. Okay. The last time that I recorded with you, if you remember, 85 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,240 we were at your house in your studio and we went for over an hour, 86 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:53,520 hour and a half about a topic that I thought we were gonna talk about. 87 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:55,840 And then we went a completely different direction. Do you remember that? Yeah. 88 00:04:55,890 --> 00:04:56,240 So. 89 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,520 That's why we learned let's not even plan. Yeah. So exactly. 90 00:04:59,570 --> 00:05:02,640 So this is gonna be a little bit different of an episode and we may publish it 91 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:04,640 on virtual couch. I would like to do that. Okay. Yeah. 92 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:08,240 And it's definitely going on leading saints. Okay. So I feel pressure. Well, 93 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,960 you start like who are you for the people listening that don't know you. 94 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:14,560 It's fair point. I am Tony over bay. 95 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:18,000 I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist actually grew up here in Sandy, 96 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,040 Utah. And I moved away. 97 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,840 I was just putting the pieces of that together in 1992. Wow. 98 00:05:23,840 --> 00:05:27,280 Or 93 and moved to California. And so every time I come back, 99 00:05:27,280 --> 00:05:31,640 I still feel like it's the same place, but it's definitely, uh, much different. 100 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,200 Yeah. Yeah. So I'm a, a marriage and family therapist. 101 00:05:34,260 --> 00:05:37,560 And I spent 10 years in, uh, with a, 102 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:41,880 in a computer software career that I didn't realize how little I enjoyed it 103 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,720 until I got out of it, which is a big part of even the therapy, 104 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:46,600 the counseling I do, 105 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:51,160 because I love helping people really find something that matters to them. Man. 106 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:51,280 See. 107 00:05:51,280 --> 00:05:54,120 I can, isn't that true? Like yes. If there's anybody out there who just thinks, 108 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:55,960 thinks maybe they don't enjoy their job. Oh. 109 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:57,440 Like it probably means you definitely need. 110 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,480 To get you don't and then I know we've talked about this. I think, uh, I see, 111 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,960 look, I wanna take credit of all of your growth as well. Kurt. 112 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,800 Yes it's but acceptance and commitment therapy. The model of therapy. 113 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,520 I use that concept of experiential avoidance. 114 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,760 So we'll do anything other than the thing we need to do if we really don't like 115 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:12,593 the thing we do. 116 00:06:12,850 --> 00:06:17,080 So I spent 10 years in a career experientially avoiding everything. Yeah. 117 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:17,880 And just, did. 118 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:20,680 You just wake up one day that I'm just gonna start the classes to be a 119 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,560 therapist? Or like what was the like moment where. 120 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,560 You, this is embarrassing? I mean, I don't honestly, I realize now, 121 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,040 and this will probably play into some of the things we'll talk about today 122 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,680 around emotional maturity and emotional immaturity. 123 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,880 And I didn't know what I didn't know and taking ownership of things. Oh, 124 00:06:35,900 --> 00:06:39,040 now I just felt that we're gonna go some fun places today. Kurt, 125 00:06:39,050 --> 00:06:41,880 we are so the real reason is yeah, 126 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,560 I was pretty miserable in my computer software career. 127 00:06:44,580 --> 00:06:49,400 And so the big escape to me every day was to leave my office and go to 128 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:49,860 lunch. 129 00:06:49,860 --> 00:06:53,360 And so I would go to lunch and then I would get it and I would go to this, uh, 130 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:54,480 Denny's parking lot. 131 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:58,120 That was a couple miles away from my office and I would just eat lunch and 132 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,840 listen to talk radio. And there was a Dr. 133 00:07:01,840 --> 00:07:04,160 Laura Lesinger oh yeah. Right. Dr. Laura. 134 00:07:04,570 --> 00:07:05,403 Is she still on the radio? 135 00:07:05,710 --> 00:07:07,480 I don't think so. Yeah. Oh. 136 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:09,200 Boy. I feel bad. I mean, is the radio still exist? 137 00:07:09,290 --> 00:07:10,400 No. And that's the thing. 138 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:11,800 Right? She probably has a podcast. There. 139 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:13,440 You go. Yeah. And so I would listen to Dr. 140 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:18,440 Laura all the time and I was just so fascinated by everyone's stories and 141 00:07:18,550 --> 00:07:20,360 just the things that she would say. 142 00:07:20,420 --> 00:07:24,520 And I had taken some psychology classes in college at the university of Utah. 143 00:07:24,700 --> 00:07:28,320 And these are the things that I think are so fascinating is I think I had thrown 144 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,240 out there to someone. I don't remember who, where I thought, oh, 145 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:32,010 I think I would like to, 146 00:07:32,010 --> 00:07:35,040 to major in psychology and I don't even remember who it was, but they just said, 147 00:07:35,290 --> 00:07:37,640 oh, there's not, there's not a lot you can do with that. 148 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,080 And I remember thinking, oh, okay. Not a lot I can do with that. 149 00:07:40,190 --> 00:07:43,520 I guess I won't do that. . And, and so then, you know, I get a, 150 00:07:43,590 --> 00:07:46,440 a degree of mask communications and then here we go, 151 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,560 fast forward 10 years later, and I'm sitting in a Denny's parking lot, 152 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:53,920 eating taco trees, super nachos for about the 40th day in a row, 153 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:55,320 listening to Dr. Laura. 154 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,520 That's that's a red flag is the, I think so super. 155 00:07:58,050 --> 00:07:59,440 If they're amazing, I still eat. 156 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:00,840 Those to this day. Time for life change. 157 00:08:00,900 --> 00:08:04,520 I'd still eat those to this day. And I just remember thinking, man, 158 00:08:04,550 --> 00:08:09,200 I just really like people's stories. And I had also, I love biographies. 159 00:08:09,270 --> 00:08:13,760 I love biographies. I would, there was a magazine at the time called biography, 160 00:08:13,830 --> 00:08:15,600 I think. And when I would travel, 161 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:18,960 I traveled a lot in the computer software industry. I covered the world. 162 00:08:19,070 --> 00:08:20,080 I went to Japan, 163 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:24,640 I think 30 times in Russia and China and all over throughout Europe handling my 164 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,920 goods. And so I would enjoy the trips, just not the work itself, 165 00:08:28,100 --> 00:08:30,040 but I would get magazines at the time. 166 00:08:30,140 --> 00:08:33,960 And I remember I would read every biography magazine and I was just fascinated 167 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,640 by people and the way that they work and the way that they tick. 168 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:40,320 And then I think that a lot of people that become therapists have the same story 169 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,280 of where they say, and I, everybody would just open up to me. 170 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,720 And so I don't know what that vibe is, Uhhuh, but I would. 171 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:46,160 But you felt. 172 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:46,720 That I did. 173 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:50,400 And I would go on these trade shows and I remember people that were helping set 174 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,480 up our trade show booth or, um, other things would just, all of a sudden, 175 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:56,960 I'm hearing about their troubles with their girlfriend or their yeah. You know, 176 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,880 and I remember very succinctly or specifically a lot of those different 177 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:05,200 situations or spending time going out and having to go to dinner with some guy 178 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,600 in Germany, trying to pitch my software. And before, you know, 179 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,480 it we're opening up about the struggles of being a, a father or a husband. Yeah. 180 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,640 And so then I just kept thinking, man, between Dr. Laura, 181 00:09:15,060 --> 00:09:18,840 the not enjoying my job, biographies, connecting with people, 182 00:09:19,230 --> 00:09:23,360 I just thought I gotta do something around this. And I, a big part of that, 183 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:27,360 that I left out was I had been writing a humor column in my local newspaper for 184 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:31,640 about six, seven years at that point. And I had had my first couple of kids. 185 00:09:31,700 --> 00:09:34,320 And so I was writing a ton of things around being a dad. 186 00:09:34,580 --> 00:09:38,040 And so then I also wanted to write a book about being a dad. 187 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:41,800 And so now I realized the thing I use as an excuse to wanna go back to grad 188 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,560 school and get a master's in counseling was I told myself that I wanted to write 189 00:09:45,560 --> 00:09:48,640 a book, but nobody would listen to me unless I had letters behind my name Uhhuh. 190 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:50,480 So I might as well go back and get a master. Yeah. 191 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,400 Get the letters in counseling so that I can then write this dad book, 192 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:55,640 which I never ended up doing anything with. Well. 193 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:56,960 Hey, I still have all, I'm still young man. 194 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,040 Too. Wow. My youngest though is now graduated from high school. 195 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:01,720 So you figured it out. That's a very, 196 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:04,760 you graduated from dad hood that's right's a from point age point. 197 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,800 Yeah. So then it was, uh, yeah, it was the slow go back to school, 198 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,680 one class a week, couple years into it, 199 00:10:10,680 --> 00:10:12,680 then all of a sudden you have to start seeing clients. 200 00:10:12,700 --> 00:10:16,400 And then I would pretend and say, oh, I guess I'll just do this. I mean, 201 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:20,480 I might as well just finish this program out. And then once you graduate, 202 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,960 then you have to get 3000 hours toward your licensing. 203 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:24,680 So you might as well do. 204 00:10:24,680 --> 00:10:27,560 That. Yeah. And so then I say, I'll work part-time for the church, you know? 205 00:10:27,560 --> 00:10:29,400 Yeah. I'll throw, 'em a bone Kurt, you. 206 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:30,233 Know, . 207 00:10:31,020 --> 00:10:35,160 And so then that went for years and just loved every bit of the counseling, 208 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:39,480 which actually then made going back to my day to day job and computers and that 209 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,680 sort of thing. Even worse, it made it just miserable. And so then, uh, 210 00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:46,680 then just ventured out and started working in private practice. 211 00:10:46,680 --> 00:10:49,520 And now it's the greatest thing I've ever done. Nice. 212 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:51,920 And I just love everything about it and I just eat, 213 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,200 drink and sleep just mental health. And. 214 00:10:54,700 --> 00:10:57,440 You do, you're fun to geek out with as far as I. 215 00:10:57,440 --> 00:10:59,320 Appreciate. That's why I think that's why we're doing today. Exactly. 216 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,880 And when you had mentioned that, that was the goal was cuz I kept, you know, 217 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:04,840 said, Kurt, what are we gonna talk about? Like what, 218 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:08,120 what should I start preparing? And, and Kurt said, Hey, uh, yeah, 219 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,240 that'll be fun. And I I'm thinking, Hey, Kurt's going a little senile. 220 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:14,240 Cause I'm literally asking him, can you gimme something to obsess with? 221 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:15,120 Yes. All of it. All. 222 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,200 Of it. Yeah. And then we start Marco polling, like the kids do, 223 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:17,800 which was a lot of. 224 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:18,320 Fun. Yeah. We're. 225 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:20,240 Hip now. Yeah. And then I thought, oh, well Kurt, 226 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,440 maybe just isn't like listening to my entire rant or Ram about, 227 00:11:24,570 --> 00:11:27,320 so anyway about the topic and then you finally. 228 00:11:27,630 --> 00:11:29,640 Yeah. You just didn't listen to my reply. 229 00:11:29,770 --> 00:11:30,360 No. 230 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:34,320 Until 10 minutes ago. Right? Yeah. So this is what I love. And by the way, 231 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,920 people are listening via virtual couch. I'm Kurt Frankum oh yeah. Kurt. 232 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:41,040 I pretend that I wasn't just only thinking about myself and uh, 233 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:42,240 maybe we can edit in there. It's okay. Kurt. 234 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:46,760 Leading to our narcissistic discussion later. That's a good point. so, 235 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:50,760 uh, leading saints is a nonprofit organization. We're we're dedicated, 236 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:52,880 helping latter day saints be better prepared to lead. 237 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,680 And that's why I love talking with you therapist type, 238 00:11:55,680 --> 00:11:59,240 because I just love to hear and let's start here is like, oh, 239 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:01,880 well let me put a plugin. We had you come out like, oh, 240 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:03,640 let's talk about this six. This was last month. 241 00:12:03,710 --> 00:12:05,880 I know I've been dragging my feet to get it all edited and whatnot. 242 00:12:06,110 --> 00:12:10,080 It's out there. We're gonna put an awesome link in the show notes. Yeah. 243 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,080 So people can watch it for free. Yeah. 244 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:16,680 I think we went after editing everything out. We were there for four hours. 245 00:12:16,810 --> 00:12:17,160 So. 246 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,240 You would think it came it'll for four and I actually ended up going about four 247 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:20,790 and a half. 248 00:12:20,790 --> 00:12:22,160 Okay. So maybe it's closer to four. 249 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,680 Yeah. But then I did see, I watched a little bit of it. 250 00:12:24,680 --> 00:12:28,160 I have a hard time watching myself but I really did need to see if you 251 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,120 made me sound at least somewhat. Oh yeah. And you did. Yeah. 252 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:31,600 We can. You. 253 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,040 Guys did a great job. So I feel like I'm excited for people to see that for. 254 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:35,280 Real. Yeah. 255 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:39,120 So if you like this episode of you should listen to other episodes of Tony and 256 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,360 the virtual couch, but also we'll put a link to check out this. I, 257 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,200 I call it leading saints live. Okay. Where bringing a guest like you, 258 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:49,440 and we just say, we're cutting the leash, run with it, Tony. And you did that. 259 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,320 And we were in this cool old church that hat that's amazing. 260 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,960 No bathroom and no air conditioning. And. 261 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:56,600 Uh, at one point the door was open on the side. 262 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,160 You remember there were people that were walking by with their horses. Yes, yes, 263 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:01,600 yes. And I just thought again, I thought Kurt staged this. 264 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:03,040 Yeah. I forget the name. It's a pro. 265 00:13:03,330 --> 00:13:03,680 Oh. 266 00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:06,600 Uh, anyways. Yeah. We'll put in the show notes, 267 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:10,840 but so I just love like meeting up with therapist from time to time and just 268 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:14,440 saying like, alright, to like what problems are walking into your office? 269 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,040 Like there's always like you talk to any, Bishop's like, oh man, 270 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,320 the porn thing is just outta control or the, the faith crisis, 271 00:13:20,340 --> 00:13:23,920 the faith journey thing. Right. So like in the last three months, 272 00:13:23,970 --> 00:13:26,800 if you were to like knelt down to a few topics, what are you seeing walking? 273 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:27,240 Okay. 274 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,280 Boy, that's in your pressure. So it's interesting cuz I started out as, 275 00:13:30,550 --> 00:13:33,960 I guess I somewhat of what would we call the, a pornography expert? 276 00:13:34,140 --> 00:13:38,000 And I have a book that was a bestseller in sexual health and recovery called 277 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:38,720 he's a porn addict. 278 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,640 Now what an expert and a former addict to answer your questions. 279 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:45,000 Mm-hmm and I only mentioned that because it's interesting that I 280 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:49,000 had done almost a decade's worth of working with guys that struggled with 281 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,280 turning to porn as a, as a coping mechanism. 282 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,640 Mm-hmm for so long that then I felt like, okay, I got my reps, 283 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,240 my 10,000 hours in. And then at that point though, 284 00:13:57,630 --> 00:14:01,840 I didn't necessarily want to be viewed as the porn expert. Yeah. And so, 285 00:14:01,940 --> 00:14:05,920 and I give that real quickly to say that in the pornography world, 286 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,560 which I feel so blessed to be able to help people. 287 00:14:09,560 --> 00:14:13,400 I've got a online program called the path back and I've got this men's group 288 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,680 that is just thriving. And one of the members of the men's group, uh, 289 00:14:16,790 --> 00:14:20,200 just released a book about his overcoming addiction. 290 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,640 And a lot of it is based off of just the interactions within our group and my 291 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,000 program. And so I'm just, I mean, it it's called conquering your addictions, 292 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:28,640 this amazing guy named LT, but it's been, 293 00:14:28,670 --> 00:14:31,400 it's just been so wonderful to see that. But again, 294 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:35,400 the reason I'm using that as setting this up is in working with people that are 295 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:36,233 struggling with porn, 296 00:14:36,460 --> 00:14:39,360 you start out when you don't know what you don't know and you're going down that 297 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,320 same path of, Hey, seeing him, you know, do some pushups. 298 00:14:42,580 --> 00:14:46,040 How about you just don't look at it, you know, those gyms. Yeah. 299 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,400 I start, I did that as the Bishop right. Year one. Like have you. 300 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,000 Tried that well, and, and as a matter of fact of what I was, 301 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:52,160 was so grateful for is that was, 302 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:54,400 I think the first episode that I ever did with you was, uh, 303 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:56,520 taking shame outta the Bishop's office and that went yeah. We'll. 304 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:57,000 Link to it. Okay. 305 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,120 Fantastic. I still feel like that was, I was so grateful to be able to do that. 306 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:01,560 And I got so much feedback about that, 307 00:15:01,700 --> 00:15:05,840 but when I was helping people turn away from pornography as a coping mechanism 308 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,920 identified that there were these five voids, I felt like really? 309 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:13,480 So we would almost don't talk about the porn because they know that they don't 310 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:15,360 wanna look at porn anymore. That's the whole thing mm-hmm . 311 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:19,080 And so that's why I say telling 'em, uh, like, you know, this isn't great. 312 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:19,360 Right. 313 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:20,520 Really bad. They, they. 314 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:21,040 Totally get that. 315 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,760 Yeah. Right. The sex trafficking industry is closely connected. 316 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:26,720 You do know that like as if these yeah. 317 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,880 These heavy perspectives will sort of be like wake them up. 318 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:31,120 Crash. Right. But that's. 319 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:31,560 That's not. 320 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:32,200 What's happening. No. 321 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,080 And that's what even drives the behavior more into the shadows, 322 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,320 which is only makes it worse. Yeah. So then these five voids, 323 00:15:38,470 --> 00:15:42,200 I really felt like if people didn't feel connected in their marriage or as a 324 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,680 parent in their faith, their health or their career. So then I said, okay, 325 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,240 I need to start looking at ways to help people in those areas. 326 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,200 Then it's almost like, yeah, we'll get back to the porn. Don't worry. Yeah. 327 00:15:51,300 --> 00:15:52,840 And so let's pause right there. Like, 328 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,840 cuz I think like with the benefit of hindsight, 329 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:57,680 like if I was to be a Bishop again yeah. 330 00:15:57,680 --> 00:15:59,240 And somebody walked in with a porn issue, 331 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:04,120 like I would like literally not talk about porn at all or behaviors or 332 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,000 like I wouldn't ask them the second, third time, fourth time back. 333 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,480 Like how many slipups? Like I wouldn't even go there. I would just say like, 334 00:16:10,910 --> 00:16:13,600 what's going on with your life? Tell me about your childhood. You know? 335 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:17,600 Like what, tell me about your friends. Like what are tough times? Like yeah. 336 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,560 You know, do you like your job, right. Like totally. And from a spiritual, 337 00:16:20,990 --> 00:16:22,720 I don't wanna step in the role of that therapist, 338 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:24,040 obviously connecting to somebody there, 339 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:28,680 but stepping in that role of like I'm going to help this person UN uncover their 340 00:16:28,830 --> 00:16:30,840 pure identity. Yeah. Because they've, 341 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,400 that's where the technicion points really attached to. Right. 342 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:35,560 They do. Yeah. I it's so good. 343 00:16:35,740 --> 00:16:38,880 And I love that you bring that up because I know so many people that just become 344 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:41,240 a Bishop or just get into a position of leadership in the church, 345 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,840 just eat up leading saints podcasts. 346 00:16:43,940 --> 00:16:47,000 And so I know there are gonna be people here that are gonna hear this. 347 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,480 And I can say from now 15 years of experience, I think 15, 348 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:54,080 1600 individuals working that I save with confidence, 349 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:58,000 shame has helped in zero of their recovery. Absolutely zero. 350 00:16:58,130 --> 00:17:02,680 So people beating themselves up is that is the adversary. That is the brain, 351 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:03,120 you know, 352 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,360 still wanting to come up with a creative way to still get its dopamine rush at 353 00:17:06,360 --> 00:17:08,560 some point. And so that's where I love what you're saying. 354 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:10,760 It's we'll deal with the porn. We'll talk about that. 355 00:17:10,860 --> 00:17:13,840 But if we can start to find connection and I really feel like the, 356 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:17,920 the vibe of a therapist or a Bishop or any leader is I would love for somebody 357 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:22,000 to really look at that. They have this opportunity to say, oh, I love you. 358 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:26,360 I care about you. Even if you are turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms, 359 00:17:26,360 --> 00:17:26,960 mm-hmm . And, 360 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:31,440 and I understand that a spouse that feels betrayed can be really hard because 361 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,480 they feel like that is okay, but I don't want this in the relationship. And, 362 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,360 and that's where I feel like a Bishop, a therapist, somebody gets to say, oh, 363 00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:41,280 absolutely. And I don't want you to have that in the relationship either, 364 00:17:41,380 --> 00:17:44,280 but I really need to help this person do this for them. 365 00:17:44,420 --> 00:17:48,600 And so that then they realize that they are loved. Yeah. They are lovable. 366 00:17:48,710 --> 00:17:50,720 Yeah. So I wanna come back to this connection point. 367 00:17:50,780 --> 00:17:53,520 I'm just like going back into that question of like, 368 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:54,760 what are you seeing walking in like, oh, okay. 369 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,240 Let's say you have a new person show up on your, yeah. 370 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,600 You don't know who they are. It's just a name on your schedule. Yeah. 371 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,560 What's the chances of, of them walking in and it being a. 372 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,760 Pornish not, not a lot. Okay. Yeah. Not a lot. It really isn't because, 373 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,680 so I feel like that where I feel like I'm seeing more and more, 374 00:18:08,780 --> 00:18:11,080 I'm doing a whole lot with couples. Okay. 375 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,680 And I think a lot of that's because when I put out material and I talk about my 376 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,280 four pillars of a connected conversation, which we can talk about, 377 00:18:17,590 --> 00:18:21,880 I really feel like that is, it is gold. I feel like the four pillars are of God. 378 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:22,760 I feel like, you know, 379 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:26,200 having this way to communicate effectively with your spouse, mm-hmm, 380 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:30,320 that uncovers so many things in a relationship and including 381 00:18:30,710 --> 00:18:33,920 challenges with people's faith. And man, 382 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:35,880 I feel like I can go so many different directions right now, 383 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:37,160 but so people coming in, I get a, 384 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,440 I get a lot of people that are reaching out that are struggling with the faith, 385 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:42,760 faith journey, and then, and. 386 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:44,440 Being in, you know, California, how, 387 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,640 what percentage of what's the chance of that new client being a latter Saint? 388 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:48,960 Oh. 389 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:50,000 So that's a great, I, 390 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:54,960 so I still probably see 60 to 70% of my clientele or LDS. Okay. They are. 391 00:18:55,140 --> 00:18:58,920 And it's interesting when I, honestly, this is kind of fun to talk about, 392 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:03,080 but when somebody comes into my office and they don't have any affiliation with 393 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:03,960 the church whatsoever, 394 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,120 and they don't know me as having any affiliation with the church, 395 00:19:07,340 --> 00:19:11,520 and yet I still will end up talking about Fowler stages of faith or I'll end up 396 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:12,720 talking about, you know, 397 00:19:12,950 --> 00:19:17,560 I feel like the time passed a while ago where people now pornography is not just 398 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:19,560 viewed as, oh, you religious, you know, 399 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,600 nut jobs are the only ones that think it's bad because we've got all the data 400 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,720 now that, okay, it does warp one sexuality. 401 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,800 Or I feel like there's a missed opportunity for connection in a relationship. 402 00:19:28,190 --> 00:19:31,600 I know that we're gonna go on tangents curb, but I still remember. 403 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,720 So clearly it was shortly into the pandemic and I was asked to go on a national 404 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:40,240 radio show and I do this too often where I just don't do enough research. 405 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:42,520 And I just say, sure, if I can fit it, my schedule, and. 406 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:43,353 Then it's in three minutes. 407 00:19:43,550 --> 00:19:46,280 Well, this was actually though it was, I had plenty of runway on this one, 408 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:48,960 but this is one where I didn't look at what the host was talking about. 409 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:49,440 And they just said, 410 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,200 they want me to talk about porn in the pandemic and as it gotten worse. 411 00:19:52,460 --> 00:19:54,680 And so I just thought, oh yeah, I could do this one. No problem. 412 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,360 So I jump on there and the guy immediately has, I mean, 413 00:19:57,360 --> 00:19:59,960 he's got a national following and he just says, well, 414 00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:03,360 there's no problem with porn and my wife and I watch porn and that sort of 415 00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:05,520 thing, you know, mm-hmm and I love that. I, I mean, again, 416 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,200 I feel confident in the things I know and the things I can talk about and I just 417 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:10,960 said, Hey, well then I would not be seeing you in my office. So, 418 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,160 uh mm-hmm what else do you wanna talk about? You know, and, 419 00:20:13,220 --> 00:20:16,280 and by the time we were done, you know, I was saying, okay, well, 420 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:20,200 I believe it's an unhealthy coping mechanism, but if you feel like that is a, 421 00:20:20,250 --> 00:20:22,600 an integral part of your relationship, then I said, 422 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,520 the only thing I would challenge is, you know, 423 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,040 I would love to ask your wife if she feels like, uh, 424 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:28,440 that's a connection point for her as well, 425 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:29,960 or just feel like that's something that she has to, 426 00:20:30,130 --> 00:20:33,400 to tolerate in order to feel a connection. And then I said it, 427 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:37,000 and then I lay out my four pillars and I just say, so I feel like, uh, man, 428 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,040 what would that look like if you actually, 429 00:20:39,090 --> 00:20:42,880 instead of needing to have this shared experience around watching other people 430 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:43,760 become intimate, 431 00:20:43,870 --> 00:20:46,920 felt like you could be open and vulnerable and intimate with your, 432 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,640 your spouse and be as present as you could possibly be. 433 00:20:49,780 --> 00:20:52,400 And then I feel like he said, well, I do have a problem eating. 434 00:20:52,470 --> 00:20:55,120 I think he said brownies. And I said, okay, I can talk to you about that. 435 00:20:55,540 --> 00:20:58,560 And then by the end, he's saying a friend of the show, Tony. Right. 436 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,320 And I was like, I don't know about that. 437 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,960 love. So I'm curious, like with, you know, 438 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,800 we'll come back to connection, but what is like when a new client comes in, 439 00:21:08,210 --> 00:21:10,600 do you have like a go-to question that you ask everybody, 440 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,880 like as they've plant themselves in that couch? 441 00:21:13,170 --> 00:21:15,480 Or is there like a rapport building moment. 442 00:21:15,530 --> 00:21:19,000 Or, yeah. Okay. Its great question too. I, so man, here's where I'm gonna, 443 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,560 and we'll get to this too. I'm gonna stand in my healthy ego. Kurt. 444 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,480 This is gonna sound do it, man, where I used to say, why we bring you in? 445 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,480 I used to say, this is my narcissistic trader tendency. 446 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,040 That's why I say we're gonna get to this. But in the health ego, 447 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,000 I'm super blessed, fortunate, 448 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:35,600 and cannot believe I'm in a spot now where I probably get 10 to 15 referrals a 449 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:40,040 week. And so I pick and choose who I wanna work with. And I've got a really, I, 450 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,040 I mean, I've kind of got a long wait list and I'm booked out for a long time. 451 00:21:43,290 --> 00:21:46,360 So I know when you kind of ever say and tell me about these new clients. Oh, 452 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,480 okay. In my mind, I'm like every now and again, I do get one Kurt. Okay. 453 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:49,920 And then, but, 454 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,480 but at that point it's somebody that I've kind of vetted and I feel it's funny 455 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,240 because a lot of them will say, Hey, 456 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,640 I've listened to a lot of your podcasts or it's people that have taken my 457 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,440 marriage course or my recovery course or my parenting course, 458 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,720 or they've read my book. And that's why I'm saying, I'm gonna say healthy ego. 459 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:08,000 I'm not trying to say so. I know that they adore me Kurt, but I feel like, okay, 460 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:09,920 here's somebody that says, all right. I like, 461 00:22:09,950 --> 00:22:12,800 I really feel a connection with you. I like where you're going with things. 462 00:22:13,210 --> 00:22:15,600 So I speak kind of fluent you. 463 00:22:15,700 --> 00:22:18,520 And so I would love to kind of bounce some things off of you. 464 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:20,200 I would love to talk more or learn more. 465 00:22:20,300 --> 00:22:23,320 And so those are the people I really like. And I do a lot of speaking and I did, 466 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:28,240 uh, like a mixed faith marriage, fireside not long ago. And so, you know, 467 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:30,320 then I had a couple people reach out and say, all right, man, 468 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,520 you made it sound like this is something that can be done. 469 00:22:32,930 --> 00:22:36,800 So if you happen to have space availability, I would love to work with you. 470 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,840 So somebody like that, oh my gosh, I will, for almost to a fault. 471 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:42,040 I will make time. You know? 472 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,400 And that's why I know when we joke about it and I'll tell you how many clients 473 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,840 I'm seeing or what time morning I'm seeing. Yeah. 474 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,760 Or whatever it's because when I get somebody in that spot, 475 00:22:50,070 --> 00:22:52,120 I just want help so bad. Yeah. I really do. 476 00:22:52,250 --> 00:22:55,400 So I'm not trying to Dodge your question, but I that's helpful. Yeah. Yeah. 477 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,240 So I'm, I'm kind of picking and choosing. So I'm really working mainly with, so. 478 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:00,760 Let me ask you from this angle, like when that person walks in, 479 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:02,000 you've vetted him to some degree, 480 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,120 maybe like you've talked him on a few phone calls. Like what does that vetting. 481 00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:08,240 Look like? I, um, they've sent me a couple emails. Okay. And then I have, 482 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,240 'em fill out a questionnaire in the paperwork and then I'll read the 483 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,000 questionnaire. Okay. And then I'll have an idea of where they're coming from. 484 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:14,240 Gotcha. 485 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:15,960 Yeah. So what is that person thinking? 486 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,800 Is that they're in a tough marriage or they're struggling with pornography or 487 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:19,960 faith journey. And they're just like, 488 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,480 I need to tell him there's this problem with my faith. So what should I do? 489 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,440 Like what, where are they at when they first sit down on appointment one? Yeah, 490 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:27,720 it's a. 491 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:28,720 Okay. I really do like this. 492 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:30,400 And I feel like now I'm gonna do the thing where you're gonna think. 493 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,000 I'm just telling you every question's a great question. 494 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,160 I can't wait till you ask it DOD Kurt. I'm gonna say. 495 00:23:34,460 --> 00:23:34,960 You know what? 496 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,840 I think every time somebody says that when I interview people there is they, 497 00:23:38,070 --> 00:23:41,560 it's probably a good question. It's either a good question or a bad question. 498 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:43,320 Yeah. And they don't know how to answer it. Yeah. 499 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,920 So they need their brain needs to kill time. So their brain kicks out. Oh, 500 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:47,800 that's a really good question. 501 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,280 That's true. I, I know, I think that is obviously true. Yeah. 502 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,200 But this is where again, I will stand on my healthy ego and say, 503 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,560 now I am aware that that is, uh, something I have done in the past. 504 00:23:55,570 --> 00:23:57,440 So now I would either say, Ooh, 505 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,360 let me take a minute or I'm gonna tell you it's a decent question. Yeah. 506 00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:01,000 But I love, see, 507 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:02,880 I could talk about this stuff all day when I was teaching seminary. 508 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,080 I remember doing the thing where I would say sometimes somebody would answer 509 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,040 something I would say, Ooh, okay. I, you know, that's a good point. 510 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,440 And then my class, I only taught seniors for seven years or so. 511 00:24:12,460 --> 00:24:16,360 And by the few months in, they would say, oh, you mean I'm wrong? You know, 512 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,760 I was like, really? Isn't that obvious? 513 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:20,120 You know, it's a cover for yeah. 514 00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:22,960 It's a cover. So, and here's our first add moment. 515 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:24,400 I can't remember what the question was. 516 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,040 so like the person coming in, sitting on the couch, where are they at? 517 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,760 Because this is the thing is I remember as from, 518 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:32,720 just let me answer my Bishop perspective here. Yes. 519 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,280 Is when someone would come in that like new appointment, I haven't met them. 520 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,520 Like, okay. They've, , it's either, 521 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:43,400 they've got something really heavy to share or it's an ecclesial endorsement and 522 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:44,960 sometimes, oh, they come in, they're like, you. 523 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:45,160 See those. 524 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,800 Coming? How can I, can I, how can I help? And they're like, oh, 525 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,880 I'm just going to Buu Idaho next fall. And I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah, 526 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:53,520 let's get the paperwork going. But. 527 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:54,800 Anyways, no, I like it. So, so I. 528 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,160 Feel so I would often ask, like I would just, I wanted to get to the point, 529 00:24:58,160 --> 00:24:59,320 cuz I know that there's just like, 530 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,640 it's a miracle they're showing up at the Bishop's office. 531 00:25:01,820 --> 00:25:04,040 And so I would just say, how can I help you? 532 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,760 Okay. So this is really good. That's where I was. I was like, 533 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:08,360 it actually is a decent question. Kurt . 534 00:25:08,360 --> 00:25:10,720 I'll give you that. I'll give you that. I know that don't I'll you that. 535 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,760 Right? So by the time that someone is sitting across from me, man, 536 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:15,880 this sounds egotistical, 537 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,880 but it is absolutely true is they've resonated with something they've said, 538 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:20,550 okay. 539 00:25:20,550 --> 00:25:25,440 I haven't heard someone talk about being able to navigate a faith journey 540 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,800 and then stay connected with my spouse or to my faith community until I heard 541 00:25:30,060 --> 00:25:31,400 you speak at this fire site, 542 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,440 or I heard this episode of your podcast or a lot of the couples I see are coming 543 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,760 in saying, okay, I hear you lay out this framework of a way to communicate. 544 00:25:39,860 --> 00:25:42,960 And I have never had that in my entire marriage. And I think that, 545 00:25:43,150 --> 00:25:45,000 I don't know if I can stay in my marriage, 546 00:25:45,140 --> 00:25:47,600 but I want to make sure that I've done everything I can do. 547 00:25:47,690 --> 00:25:50,920 So I think this framework will be worth looking into mm-hmm so 548 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,920 right now, between faith and hearing people, I think cuz I, 549 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,240 I really like talking about faith journeys of the people's faith crisis, 550 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,200 faller stages of faith, all those things. I love talking about that. Yeah. 551 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:02,720 So I feel like when I talk about it, I really, 552 00:26:02,750 --> 00:26:06,680 I really believe what I'm preaching mm-hmm and then the couples, 553 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,560 I think I've seen, I don't know, 12, 1300 couples at this point as well. 554 00:26:09,620 --> 00:26:10,440 And I feel like, 555 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,480 I feel very confident that when we can settle into this framework of 556 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,840 communication that we are going to learn, is this just a matter of, uh, 557 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,280 two people that are in relationships that don't know what they don't know about 558 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:25,640 communication or about taking ownership or accountability of things or is it a 559 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,680 lot of times someone finds out that, okay, 560 00:26:27,790 --> 00:26:30,000 I have lost my sense of self in this relationship. 561 00:26:30,060 --> 00:26:31,560 And now that there's this framework, 562 00:26:31,650 --> 00:26:36,480 my spouse can't even use a framework from this professional yeah. 563 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:37,720 To try to even communicate. 564 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:39,680 And so then I don't know if my relationship is viable. 565 00:26:40,170 --> 00:26:44,120 So I feel like I'm getting people coming in and that is what leads into the 566 00:26:44,120 --> 00:26:46,240 concept of narcissism or emotional immaturity. 567 00:26:46,420 --> 00:26:49,600 And I think I was sharing with you that the podcast I released a few months ago, 568 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,960 waking up to narcissism mm-hmm that thing in 30 something episodes 569 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,440 is almost equal to the virtual couch as far as downloads. 570 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,080 And I actually had to just brought in an amazing assistant named Naomi, 571 00:26:59,300 --> 00:27:02,120 who is handling all the emails I get. Cause I get a maybe, 572 00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:05,240 and I'm not using narcissistic math here but you know, 573 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,240 five to 10 emails a day that are book length of people saying I've never felt so 574 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:10,960 heard. I didn't know. This was a thing. 575 00:27:10,990 --> 00:27:15,360 I feel like you were in my car and heard the argument we had or I feel like 576 00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:19,840 you've been bugging my home and it is just their heart wrenching. And so, 577 00:27:19,980 --> 00:27:23,200 and then I started a private women's Facebook group for women that are in 578 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:28,000 relationships with narcissistic fill in the blank, spouses, parents, entities. 579 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:29,960 Mm-hmm I mean, I feel like a lot of people feel like they have a, 580 00:27:30,190 --> 00:27:31,800 a relationship with an a, 581 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:36,280 an emotionally immature congregation or church leader. Yeah. 582 00:27:36,540 --> 00:27:40,120 Job, you know, any of those kind of situations. And so people feel really heard. 583 00:27:40,340 --> 00:27:41,200 And now I've, 584 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,680 I just had my first men's group call just yesterday. 585 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:46,840 About for nurses. 586 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,520 For guys that are saying, Hey, I actually feel like when I hear the way you, 587 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,640 you talk about it, I think I might, that might be me. And I'm telling you Kurt, 588 00:27:54,670 --> 00:27:57,720 that just lights me up. And this, I have this meeting yesterday. 589 00:27:58,110 --> 00:28:02,000 I didn't know if I was going in as they lamb to the slaughter or if I was going, 590 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:03,760 I didn't know what it was gonna be looking like. 591 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:05,840 Cuz a couple of people that had reached out to me had, 592 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:07,960 had literally sent emails saying, so, uh, 593 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,560 here you diagnosed me as a narcissist and my wife thinks you, you know, you, 594 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,880 everything you say is the truth. I don't know who this person's wife is. I mean, 595 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,520 they've been listening to a podcast and apparently now they're saying, well, 596 00:28:17,590 --> 00:28:20,240 Tony says that you're a narcissist. And he's like, well I, 597 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:21,880 let me go settle this guy's hash, 598 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,120 you know and I'm getting an email that says, and then I, and, 599 00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:28,440 and so those I'll try to really get back to this one person. I said, Hey, 600 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:29,880 so first up, I don't know who you are. 601 00:28:30,030 --> 00:28:33,280 I don't know who your wife is and I can't diagnose somebody unless I'm working 602 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,560 with them even then we could talk for days about, 603 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,240 I don't know if that's even very helpful. Yeah. But you know, but I hear you. 604 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,560 And I talk about the big piece of that waking up the nurses on podcast is that 605 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:48,360 came about because of the more that I started recognizing these patterns and 606 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:52,320 relationships and my own narcissistic traits and tendencies and my own emotional 607 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:56,160 immaturity and inability to sometimes even hear or stay present and understand 608 00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:00,400 where my wife is coming from in situations that then I started saying, man, 609 00:29:00,550 --> 00:29:01,760 I need to do more with this. 610 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,880 And even the name of the podcast waking up to narcissism is waking up to the 611 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,720 narcissistic relationship in a marriage. Or like I say, 612 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:14,240 in a parent child relationship or in relationship to a employment or a faith 613 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,280 experience or community or the bigger pieces waking up to my own. Yeah. 614 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:19,160 Narcissism. Yeah. 615 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,800 And so as I find more people that are reaching out and talking about how much 616 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,000 that helps them. So kind of going back to your question, the people coming in, 617 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,720 in front of me are saying that they feel heard and understood from a something's 618 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,320 resume crisis from a faith journey, from a couple's situation or from a, 619 00:29:33,370 --> 00:29:36,240 an emotional maturity or narcissistic standpoint because that word's getting 620 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:36,960 thrown out all over. 621 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,480 The place. Oh. And then we're gonna talk about that for sure. Good. So, 622 00:29:39,660 --> 00:29:40,880 and that's interesting cuz I'm, 623 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:45,040 I'm trying to put it up against like if we were to just in a, in a laboratory, 624 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,440 put up a therapist's office next to the Bishop's office. Yeah. 625 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,160 Obviously we know the Bishop's office, not the therapist's office, 626 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,040 they play different roles, whatever. But I'm just curious, 627 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:58,560 like how is it easier for people to walk into a therapist office 628 00:29:58,730 --> 00:30:01,920 or easier for people to walk in a Bishop office? And of course the answer is, 629 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,720 well, it depends on the therapist, the Bishop, whatever. 630 00:30:04,940 --> 00:30:09,040 But I'm just also wondering like how like, cuz you say you get 10, 631 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,640 15 referrals a week, new, new referrals a week. Yeah. 632 00:30:12,690 --> 00:30:14,840 There's bishops out there thinking, Hmm. 633 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,480 I guess my Ward's doing pretty good cuz nobody's coming to see me or they came 634 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,560 once and I guess I've fixed them or they don't need my help anymore. 635 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:26,240 When in reality they don't like it. So like how can we create that resignation? 636 00:30:26,500 --> 00:30:29,240 And of course we can, you know, my mind goes to, you know, 637 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,760 the doctrine of repentance and grace. And if we can show love, 638 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,360 like make sure that, you know, we'll we can hear and talk here, 639 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,320 but how can we help people resonate? Okay. So they walk in the Bishop's office. 640 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,160 So what the, what the, because there is no video camera in here, 641 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,200 which I can't believe you didn't get that in the contract that I sent over ahead 642 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:47,480 of time. Uh, my, my, my water seems to be two degrees. Our lawyers speak later. 643 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:48,180 Exactly. 644 00:30:48,180 --> 00:30:51,360 But I just dramatically sat up in my chair because as Curtis saying this, 645 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,880 I feel, I so appreciate this because when you said, I don't know, 646 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,520 is it easier to go into the therapists office, to Bishop's office I guess? 647 00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:57,840 And it's, 648 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,480 I guess the people that are coming into my office are there primarily because 649 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:05,480 they don't feel safe enough or confident enough mm-hmm or like 650 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,080 they can go into their Bishop's office or they feel like I have gone into my 651 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,000 Bishop's office and that didn't go very. 652 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:11,560 Well. So I'm gonna try this, right? 653 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,400 Yeah. Yeah. So I get a lot of that. And so, 654 00:31:13,420 --> 00:31:16,560 and this is the stuff where I feel like the reason I sat up dramatically is I 655 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,200 sometimes think, okay, is this gonna be controversial? 656 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,080 But then I honestly realize that, 657 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,760 but this is my opinion and I can't not think this. Yeah. 658 00:31:25,050 --> 00:31:27,160 So let me take you back in time, Kurt, go. 659 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:27,993 Ahead. A pasta just. 660 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:32,600 Right, exactly. Right. So I love my state president is amazing. Um, 661 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,680 he's one of my best friends and I've grown up with him forever. 662 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,840 And so I love the fact that he and I can just talk so openly about things. 663 00:31:38,060 --> 00:31:39,760 And so in 2019, 664 00:31:40,020 --> 00:31:44,320 the church had hired me to do a training for all the LDS family services 665 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,360 therapists on navigating a faith crisis in a faith journey. And it was, and. 666 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,400 You sent me the link I acted in yeah. Three hours. 667 00:31:50,410 --> 00:31:53,560 It was. Yeah. And I loved it and I loved the opportunity. And then that, 668 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:54,240 then they, 669 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,720 I think they just recommended me as someone that could participate in the it's 670 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:00,040 called generations. It's a, 671 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,840 the Utah mental health conference that they hold every year. 672 00:32:02,950 --> 00:32:05,320 It's not a church thing. It's a mental health conference. 673 00:32:05,500 --> 00:32:08,080 And so I was gonna be part of this panel that was, 674 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,720 and I love this part cause it sounds like, oh, I'm setting you up for a joke. 675 00:32:10,860 --> 00:32:13,040 But it was, uh, in the past it's been a priest, 676 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:17,880 a rabbi and like an LDS person they do not walk into a bar. Okay. But, 677 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,280 but then, uh, because I, I don't know because of the pandemic, 678 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,040 whatever it looked like, they had said, Hey, 679 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,880 we've got a guy that could speak to this. And the conference title was, 680 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,120 or the topic of the conversation is faith crisis, 681 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,480 spiritual health and a mental health moving forward or something. 682 00:32:32,700 --> 00:32:34,720 But then the priest and the rabbi, 683 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:36,720 apparently either they backed out or they weren't invited. 684 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:38,920 And so then I had the whole conference I had the whole hour, 685 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:40,320 hour and a half to present this. 686 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,480 And so I went big on all the stuff I enjoy acceptance and commitment therapy, 687 00:32:43,500 --> 00:32:47,240 emo external validation. But then I went big into faller stages of faith. 688 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:48,280 And I talked about that a lot. 689 00:32:48,420 --> 00:32:51,880 And so then I took that and the training and then I shared that with my state 690 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:53,240 president. And I just said, president, I, 691 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:57,160 I just feel kind of almost this calling or passionate I would, 692 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,560 if there's any way that I can help with anyone going through this. 693 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,760 And I love that. He talked to me about that. It, yeah, 694 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:04,840 of course he's seeing a lot of that in the stake, 695 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,200 but it's one of those things where it's faith crisis. Yeah. 696 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,360 But it's hard to just go talk from the pulpit and say, Hey, 697 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,760 let me talk about faith crisis because there's a lot of people that are like, 698 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,960 wait, what? I didn't know, should I be having one? I I'm not, I mean, 699 00:33:15,270 --> 00:33:19,120 tell me more you know, and so then he suggested I go and I, 700 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,120 and so I trained all the bishops in our stake with the four, 701 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:23,640 my four pillars of a connected conversation. 702 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:25,960 Mm-hmm and then the Fowler stages of faith. 703 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,480 And the reason I'm giving you this whole big rundown is he had sent out the 704 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,160 links to those trainings. And I know everybody's got a lot of time. 705 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,760 They really do. They're 22 so much time. But so I, 706 00:33:35,990 --> 00:33:39,080 I know he said it would be great if he could watch these things and be familiar 707 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,680 with this before we talk, I knew that people weren't going to. 708 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,200 And so then we got in there and it was really interesting because some of the 709 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,680 bishops were saying, okay, it, this really helped. And I can, 710 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,360 it helps me understand that everybody has their own perspective and here's this 711 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:50,880 way to communicate more effectively. 712 00:33:51,180 --> 00:33:53,640 And then there were others that were just saying, okay, well, 713 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:55,000 but what if you're wrong? And you know, 714 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:56,960 and how do you just tell people that they're wrong? 715 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,880 And I just felt like that in itself was you've got some bishops that somebody's 716 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,160 gonna go into and they're gonna just naturally say, Hey, 717 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,160 thank you for coming in. Tell me more, cuz you know, 718 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,040 I am more familiar now and I, and here's where it looks like. I'm just saying, 719 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,960 thankfully I listened to Tony and now I know everything, but the, 720 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,320 these four pillars. So they, they are saying, okay, I have a, 721 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,920 a framework to communicate that is gonna allow the person coming in to feel 722 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,360 heard and understood before I share my experience. 723 00:34:21,780 --> 00:34:26,000 And then the stages of faith is a way to kind of communicate this. Oh. 724 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,400 And we may be in different places with our faith. So I feel like the people, 725 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,560 the bishops, if they, and again, 726 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,600 bishops are so overworked and overwhelmed that I know that, that isn't, 727 00:34:34,630 --> 00:34:37,520 they can't just go watch and read and listen to everything. 728 00:34:37,860 --> 00:34:39,320 But then I felt like in that training, 729 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,400 there were some that were asking questions of, okay, man, that makes sense. 730 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:43,440 And so, you know, 731 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,320 how can I be more supportive or what are some good questions I can ask to start 732 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,680 out with? And there was one Bishop bless his heart who then said, okay, 733 00:34:50,910 --> 00:34:53,040 I hear you. But he said, it sounds like, 734 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,400 what you're saying to me is that I need to listen to somebody for an hour and I 735 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,200 worry that's gonna condone their bad behavior. 736 00:34:58,660 --> 00:35:01,400 And so I took that and I realized, 737 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,520 and I think I was probably a little bit dramatic or emotionally immature, 738 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:06,800 a little salty, but yeah. Cause I think, I, I think I did a big old, 739 00:35:07,630 --> 00:35:11,240 like a big sigh or whatever, but I said, man, thank you Bishop. But I said, 740 00:35:11,240 --> 00:35:14,400 there's so many things there that I think are of challenges. I said, so, 741 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:14,760 you know, 742 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:18,880 the obviously listening to them for an hour is going to condone their bad 743 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,880 behavior. You know, I said, man, I wanna look at this, 744 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,520 not to say that I'm looking at it like the savior. But I said, as a therapist, 745 00:35:24,790 --> 00:35:26,600 it's just behavior. So, 746 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,640 and this is where my first pillar is assuming good intentions or there's a 747 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,000 reason why people do or say or show up the way they do that. 748 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,120 Nobody wakes up in the morning and says, I'm gonna go ruin my life. Nobody does. 749 00:35:36,230 --> 00:35:37,063 I know they don't. 750 00:35:37,450 --> 00:35:41,320 So if they are doing something that is contrary to what they would like to be 751 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,000 doing, or even what you feel like would be best for them in your role, 752 00:35:44,010 --> 00:35:46,640 in your role as the steward or, or leader, 753 00:35:46,910 --> 00:35:51,680 then the first place to go with that is to assume good intentions or there's a 754 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:56,440 reason why. And so I said, so I have a hard time seeing bad behavior. 755 00:35:56,630 --> 00:36:00,320 I just see it is behavior. So if we're already saying, okay, fine, I'll listen. 756 00:36:00,540 --> 00:36:03,480 But then I feel like I just condoned their bad behavior. 757 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,120 We're already off to a bad start. Yeah. Because that person's gonna feel that, 758 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,400 that vibe, that energy, that spirit in the room. 759 00:36:09,620 --> 00:36:13,200 And that's where I feel like now, and in that particular thing, I said, uh, 760 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:17,040 you know, I said, this is why I feel like I never would've known any of this. 761 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,240 Had I not changed careers? Had I not become a therapist. Right. 762 00:36:19,240 --> 00:36:21,720 Because now sitting with so many people that have dealt with emotional abuse, 763 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,080 physical abuse, they've been molested, sexual abuse. They've been, they've been, 764 00:36:25,100 --> 00:36:28,400 you know, beaten in childhood. They've had people die. 765 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:32,240 They've seen horrific things in, in their jobs or in, in whatever. 766 00:36:32,460 --> 00:36:35,520 And now we're gonna let them know that this is how you're supposed to think, 767 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,640 feel, or act or behave. I mean, that person is trying to just get through life. 768 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:41,360 Yeah. And so I feel like, so when you say, 769 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,520 is it easier to go to the therapist or the Bishop? That's my long way of saying, 770 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,000 I kind of think it might be, if it's the Bishop, 771 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,520 that's saying thank you so much for being here, period, feeling, you know, 772 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:53,960 tell me more. I mean, I don't feel like there's enough of that experience that, 773 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:55,720 so then someone going in already feels like, 774 00:36:55,720 --> 00:36:59,240 I know I have done wrong and I'm worried, I'm gonna say the wrong thing. 775 00:36:59,380 --> 00:37:02,800 And I know I need to basically hear the, what I'm supposed to do. 776 00:37:02,900 --> 00:37:06,040 And so when I hear all of somebody presenting in my office, 777 00:37:06,110 --> 00:37:10,040 that feeling no wonder that they start to feel like what's wrong with me. 778 00:37:10,100 --> 00:37:10,960 And if, uh, 779 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:15,560 Bishop seems pretty upset and if I I've tried those things before and I already 780 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,760 know what he's gonna say, so, and if he's a representative of God, 781 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,480 then I know God's gotta be mad at me too. And so look at all that stuff, 782 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:23,400 that's leading up to having. 783 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,600 Somebody it's like a domino like rose or ripples out. Right. 784 00:37:27,230 --> 00:37:29,920 Please join us for part two of this podcast 785 00:37:37,620 --> 00:37:40,430 That concludes this episode of the leading saints podcast. 786 00:37:40,500 --> 00:37:43,670 We'd love to hear from you about your questions or thoughts or comments. 787 00:37:43,670 --> 00:37:45,310 You can either leave a comment on the, uh, 788 00:37:45,310 --> 00:37:49,390 post related to this episode@leadingsaints.org or go to leading 789 00:37:49,390 --> 00:37:53,110 saints.org/contact and send us your perspective or questions. 790 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,510 If there's other episodes or topics you'd like to hear on the leading saints 791 00:37:56,510 --> 00:37:56,800 podcast, 792 00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,870 go to leading saints.org/contact and share with us the information there. 793 00:38:00,930 --> 00:38:04,990 And we would love for you to share this with any individual you think this would 794 00:38:04,990 --> 00:38:05,430 apply to, 795 00:38:05,430 --> 00:38:09,030 especially maybe individuals in your ward council or other leaders that you may 796 00:38:09,030 --> 00:38:12,190 know who would really appreciate the perspectives that we discussed. 797 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,110 It came as a result of the position of leadership, 798 00:38:25,110 --> 00:38:28,870 which was imposed upon us by the God of heaven, 799 00:38:28,870 --> 00:38:33,710 who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. 800 00:38:34,250 --> 00:38:35,040 And when the, 801 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:39,800 the declaration was made concerning the own and only true and living 802 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,000 church upon the face of the earth, 803 00:38:42,610 --> 00:38:46,120 we were immediately put in a position of loneliness, 804 00:38:46,140 --> 00:38:51,040 the loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run 805 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:55,800 away and to which we must face up with boldness and 806 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:57,600 courage and ability.