1 00:00:00,790 --> 00:00:03,240 When someone begins to question their faith, 2 00:00:03,340 --> 00:00:08,200 the last thing church leaders want to do is say the wrong thing or 3 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:12,800 handle in a way that will further push them away with so many historical 4 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:16,320 concerns or doctrinal questions. What is a leader supposed to do? 5 00:00:16,820 --> 00:00:20,440 I'm happy to report that leading saints is here to help with the questioning 6 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:21,273 saints library. 7 00:00:21,470 --> 00:00:26,360 This is a full library of 20 plus presentations related to how to minister to an 8 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:28,280 individual who is questioning their faith. 9 00:00:28,570 --> 00:00:31,240 We cover topics like how to answer tough questions, 10 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:35,280 maintaining a relationships when someone leaves the church and how to embrace 11 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:36,720 doctrinal ambiguity. 12 00:00:37,050 --> 00:00:40,720 If you want to review all the sessions from the questioning saints library, 13 00:00:40,930 --> 00:00:45,880 no cost for 14 days, simply go to leading saints.org/fourteen. 14 00:00:46,230 --> 00:00:50,880 That's leading saints.org/fourteen. While you're at it, 15 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:54,080 we'll give you access to all of our virtual libraries that cover several 16 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,160 leadership related topics. So click the link in the show notes, 17 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:00,440 or simply visit leading saints.org/fourteen. 18 00:01:06,740 --> 00:01:09,080 All right. So today I'm interviewing Roger Connors, 19 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:13,680 the author of divine pattern seeking the blessings of heaven. And Roger's Roger. 20 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:15,880 We did it. We're at the end of the, the episode, uh, 21 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:19,240 just briefly tell us what are some of your favorite things that people are gonna 22 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:21,800 hear in this episode that, uh, they should stick around for? 23 00:01:21,990 --> 00:01:24,800 Well, I think part of it's kinda learning that, uh, 24 00:01:24,870 --> 00:01:29,520 patterns are mental models that we find in the scriptures about where we start 25 00:01:29,570 --> 00:01:32,440 to help ourselves and others obtain the blessings of heaven. 26 00:01:32,510 --> 00:01:33,640 Yeah, that's awesome. 27 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,240 And then we had a great discussion just as far as your bio years in the 28 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:39,680 leadership consulting world. Um, oh. 29 00:01:39,710 --> 00:01:41,480 35 Something odd. 30 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:43,840 Nice. Been a state president, Bishop. 31 00:01:44,290 --> 00:01:46,360 Uh, state president branch president in the NTC. Oh. 32 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,240 Cool. All right. And then as a mission president. Yep. And what mission? 33 00:01:49,580 --> 00:01:51,600 The Washington wick mission. Awesome. 34 00:01:51,690 --> 00:01:52,360 Awesome. 35 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:56,000 And I'm in a pro uh, YSA state presidency right now. Oh, cool. I loving it. 36 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:00,440 Awesome. So you bring the, the, uh, research level, uh, 37 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,400 leadership experience, the spiritual level, and we have a great conversation. 38 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:05,440 So here is my interview with Roger Connors, 39 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,520 the author of divine patterns seeking the blessings of heaven. 40 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,280 Roger Connors, welcome to the leading saints podcast. 41 00:02:12,350 --> 00:02:13,440 Thanks. Great to be. 42 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,840 Here. Yeah, this is, uh, I'm excited to have this discussion. You you're, uh, 43 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,360 book came up on my radar from Des Desiree book. I guess you, 44 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,920 you recently published, uh, with them. How did, how, I mean, 45 00:02:22,920 --> 00:02:25,080 how did this book project come to come to be? 46 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:26,240 I know you've written several books. 47 00:02:26,620 --> 00:02:30,920 You know, I've been thinking about this for actually a long time and, uh, 48 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:35,320 approached, uh, someone I knew at desert book about it, uh, several years ago. 49 00:02:36,020 --> 00:02:40,040 And finally they said, well, why don't you submit the idea? And I submitted it. 50 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,560 It's really an interesting process because, uh, once you submit, 51 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:45,280 it's not a guarantee, the book will be published. 52 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,120 Right. I've submitted once before and it denied get published. 53 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:49,480 it goes through this, you know, 54 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:52,520 outside board review and it's pretty thorough. And I, 55 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:56,920 I found it really helpful and positive. It helped make the book better. And, uh, 56 00:02:56,920 --> 00:02:58,080 it was really a great experience. 57 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,840 Nice. Now you have, uh, quite an experience with, 58 00:03:01,150 --> 00:03:04,120 with leadership thought in the context of the business world, 59 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:05,880 professional world. I mean, that's where you made your career. 60 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:07,720 How would you explain the, the career that you had? 61 00:03:08,150 --> 00:03:12,880 Well, I was involved in large scale organizational transformation. So when, uh, 62 00:03:12,940 --> 00:03:17,120 big companies wanted to kind of mobilize everyone in their organization and kind 63 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:18,560 of change direction. Yeah. 64 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,280 They had to think about how do we get people thinking and acting differently 65 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,680 quickly to make that happen. And that's what we did, 66 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:26,400 we'd come in and help them with that part of the process. 67 00:03:26,700 --> 00:03:29,520 All right. So I gotta ask like, cuz obviously wards experiences, 68 00:03:29,550 --> 00:03:33,080 stakes experiences is there's a change in the Bishop break or there study 69 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:33,560 presidency, 70 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:38,320 like are there like foundational principles of making that transition that may 71 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:40,880 be a award leader, a new Bishop should keep in mind. 72 00:03:41,170 --> 00:03:42,840 Oh yeah. I mean culture's culture, 73 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,600 whether it's in business or in a family or at church, right? Yeah. 74 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,480 So it's really important. I think number one, you have to start with results. 75 00:03:50,770 --> 00:03:53,360 So a clear definition of what is it we wanna accomplish. 76 00:03:53,730 --> 00:03:57,400 So being really clear about that. And then secondly, you have to think about, 77 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,840 well, how do we need people to think and act differently? And if, uh, 78 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:02,920 if you're familiar with behavioral science at all, 79 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,200 there's this notion called confirmation bias. Yes. It's a built, 80 00:04:06,230 --> 00:04:10,040 it's a built in bias to keep us from thinking the way we want to think 81 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:10,580 differently. 82 00:04:10,580 --> 00:04:14,640 Confirmation bias reinforces the way we currently think we interpret our world. 83 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,960 We filter our world and all the new experiences we have through the old glasses 84 00:04:19,380 --> 00:04:23,520 and we factor out everything that's new and only isolate the variables that tell 85 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:25,760 us what we're doing right now is the right thing to be doing. 86 00:04:26,530 --> 00:04:30,160 So leaders have to be able to suspend that. 87 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:33,760 I call it belief bias or confirmation bias before they can get anywhere. 88 00:04:34,100 --> 00:04:36,280 And the way you do that is by creating new, 89 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,520 powerful experiences that people can't miss. And they kind of go, oh, 90 00:04:40,810 --> 00:04:43,320 he want us to think differently about that. I thought the, 91 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,360 the transition to ministering was something like that. Yeah. 92 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:50,040 Home teaching went from ministering to like in three days, you know, 93 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:51,240 it was a fast, quick change. 94 00:04:51,780 --> 00:04:54,560 And I think the BIR trying to create an experience for us that said, 95 00:04:54,730 --> 00:04:58,040 we don't have this fully baked. We don't have all the ideas thought out, 96 00:04:58,300 --> 00:05:00,560 but we know this is a transition we need to make. 97 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,480 And here's the thinking from this to this from, 98 00:05:03,630 --> 00:05:07,760 from tactically home teaching to strategically ministering. 99 00:05:08,140 --> 00:05:11,480 And we've all been kind of working through that process to, to understand it. 100 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:11,930 Yeah. 101 00:05:11,930 --> 00:05:13,440 So this concept, this is interesting. 102 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:15,360 I was actually thinking about this the other day of, 103 00:05:15,540 --> 00:05:19,040 and you've been a mission president and I think this is really poignant. Um, 104 00:05:19,590 --> 00:05:23,960 this dynamic, when a new mission president comes in and I remember this, I, 105 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,600 I served one year with one mission president another year with another. 106 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,760 And I remember that transition where there's this feeling of everybody, 107 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:35,280 you know, loves the outgoing mission president that believe in all his visions, 108 00:05:35,280 --> 00:05:37,280 his rules. And um, 109 00:05:37,580 --> 00:05:41,040 and then the new guy comes in and there's sort of this resistance like, Hey, 110 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,880 wait a minute, you can't change what president. So and so just did. And, 111 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:46,360 and so I think a lot of leaders feel, 112 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,520 and sometimes they get this direction that they say to new mission presidents 113 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,800 don't make a lot of changes too quickly, but what, what do you think about that? 114 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:56,240 Is it okay to come in there and make some dynamic changes as a new leader? 115 00:05:56,670 --> 00:05:59,320 I think, I think in the proper course of time, I mean, 116 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,320 you wanna be careful not to change things. You're not really understanding. 117 00:06:02,350 --> 00:06:06,480 Yeah. When I first got there within the first week I did a mission tour. 118 00:06:07,030 --> 00:06:10,400 I took my sleeping bag and I just visited missionaries apartments. 119 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:12,160 I'd sleep in their apartments and on the floor. 120 00:06:12,620 --> 00:06:16,120 And I would have two or three sets of missionaries in the morning, 121 00:06:16,490 --> 00:06:20,560 in the afternoon and in the evening. And by the time I got done, 122 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,680 I probably had a third of the mission that I had stayed with for the week. 123 00:06:24,300 --> 00:06:26,120 But what was really different, that was a, 124 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:28,120 that was a major experience for the mission. 125 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:30,160 You can imagine the missionaries calling each other and saying, 126 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:31,240 you're not gonna believe this, 127 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:33,720 but the mission president sleeping on my floor and here tonight, . 128 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:34,200 That's. 129 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,600 Awesome. And it was a, it was a signal that something was different to them. 130 00:06:38,220 --> 00:06:40,760 And it wasn't different because things were bad. 131 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:45,200 It was just different because it was time to take a different direction. And uh, 132 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,320 those experiences can be powerful if you do 'em right. 133 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,440 Yeah. And just so that concept of, of a signal that something different, 134 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:52,600 cuz there's like energy in that, right. It's like, okay, 135 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,480 this we're headed in a new direction, but it's a good direction. Right? Exactly. 136 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:57,600 And those little things can, can spur that on. 137 00:06:57,620 --> 00:06:59,720 And it's not that you came in and, you know, 138 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,160 through out all the old rules and instituted new ones, cuz what's the old, 139 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,680 you know, never move a, a fence and let tell, you know, 140 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:07,200 why the fence is there type thing. One. 141 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:11,280 Of the tricks of leadership I think in the church is to move people in a new 142 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,040 direction without negating the old direction. Yeah. 143 00:07:14,230 --> 00:07:16,360 Yeah. That can be tricky sometimes. Right? Yeah. 144 00:07:16,410 --> 00:07:20,320 So I love that you bring up cognitive bias and men we'll get to this, your, 145 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,120 your book and whatnot. There's, there's so much to discuss and, and I love this, 146 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,200 but so cognitive bias, um, I think we, 147 00:07:26,930 --> 00:07:30,040 we understand it in an, in academic context, 148 00:07:30,460 --> 00:07:35,400 but rarely do we maybe become aware of how it impacts us in a spiritual journey. 149 00:07:35,410 --> 00:07:36,160 So for example, 150 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:40,880 we may be an award council and our cognitive bias can kick in and we may 151 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,280 interpret that cognitive bias as, oh, 152 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,840 that's the spirit because that feels really comfortable to go that way. 153 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,040 And comfort is a signal that it's the spirit. 154 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:51,600 So I think I have a strong feeling that we should go that way. 155 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,880 So what's your experience of understanding the concept of cognitive bias and, 156 00:07:55,180 --> 00:07:58,320 and functioning in a spirit-led, uh, context? 157 00:07:59,590 --> 00:08:03,360 Well, I think that's, that's the hard part for the holy ghost. Yeah. 158 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,240 The holy ghost has to penetrate our confirmation bias, right? Yes. 159 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:07,760 To try to get us to think differently. 160 00:08:08,370 --> 00:08:12,680 We have this thing called selective perception where we selectively perceive our 161 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,240 environment based upon our past experiences. Yeah. 162 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,000 And that kind of relates to the same concept. 163 00:08:17,770 --> 00:08:22,120 So to reorient that selective perception and to get people to suspend 164 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:26,360 confirmation bias and to kind of where you really want get them to is thinking, 165 00:08:26,370 --> 00:08:28,000 oh, that's interesting. 166 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,440 Maybe doing it differently has some merit mm-hmm that's that's 167 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,280 when you suspended belief bias. Hmm. And when you get to that point, 168 00:08:34,500 --> 00:08:36,920 now you could begin the change process, 169 00:08:37,460 --> 00:08:41,280 but change can't happen until you reach that point where each individual says to 170 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:44,880 themselves, oh, maybe there is another way to do this, that I should consider. 171 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,280 Yeah. That has merit. Yeah. And sometimes that's an individual journey. 172 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,960 It's not always just treating everyone as a group. Right. 173 00:08:51,020 --> 00:08:54,960 But I think what's powerful about that is, you know, you, you, 174 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:59,680 you can't force people to, to, to behave differently. Right. I mean, well, 175 00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:01,080 I guess actually I guess you can, 176 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,400 like if someone held a gun to my head and said, start jumping. 177 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:04,320 You'd be a tyrant. 178 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,800 Right? Yes. I'd start jumping . But when it comes to beliefs, 179 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,200 the way people think you can't force them to hold a belief. Yeah. 180 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,720 Isn't that true? Yeah. Yeah. So if I can't force them to hold belief, 181 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,760 the problem is if I can force 'em to, to change a behavior through, through, 182 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:23,240 you know, co and compelled techniques, um, unfortunately as leaders, 183 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:27,960 we tend to re resort to those kind of approaches too often because it's easy. 184 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,960 Yeah. Like I'm gonna make you do this. Yeah. But when I, 185 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:34,000 when it comes to changing people's beliefs, the way they think, 186 00:09:34,540 --> 00:09:37,000 the only way you can do it, you can't use course and compel, 187 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,000 you can only use persuade and convince strategies to get that done. 188 00:09:40,530 --> 00:09:43,800 So you have to think differently as a leader, how do I convince them, 189 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:44,960 how do I persuade people? 190 00:09:45,300 --> 00:09:50,200 How do I com create a compelling case that this is the right direction 191 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,040 to move and it'll be powerful and positive in the church. 192 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:58,080 We have the benefit of having priested keys and, uh, powerful, 193 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,240 spiritual moments that help with that. But nevertheless, 194 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,200 we still have to make our case to people in a way that causes them to go, oh, 195 00:10:05,590 --> 00:10:08,120 that's interesting. That could be a better way. 196 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:10,280 Maybe I should consider that now you got 'em. Yeah. 197 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,440 If you get 'em to that point you're you're, you're, you're, 198 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:13,720 you're in that city on. 199 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:15,920 Yeah. And I've heard, um, I think this is Z name, 200 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:17,800 Adam Millers written some books about, um, 201 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,520 why people believe certain things and, and how we, how we debate about, 202 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,760 especially in, in context, like politics, where people are really dug in. Yeah. 203 00:10:24,860 --> 00:10:29,680 And you don't necessarily go after how they're, what their opinion is and, 204 00:10:29,680 --> 00:10:31,280 and why they think about them that way, 205 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:35,400 but more of how did you get to that opinion? And if you get, if you go there, 206 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:37,960 then you can sort of start breaking the moment of like, okay, 207 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:39,880 maybe there is a better way of thinking, just like you said, 208 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,160 and then that's the, then we can move forward. 209 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:43,160 Right. I mean, there's, 210 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:47,200 you see examples of this in the church with come follow me in the way we teach, 211 00:10:47,820 --> 00:10:51,400 you know, my older generation less to stand and deliver, you know, 212 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:53,440 that that's the way it was done for a long time. 213 00:10:53,860 --> 00:10:57,280 And we told stories about how past profits would, 214 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,360 would be stand for three or four hours and, you know, and deliver. 215 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:02,640 And they were inspirational and, and positive. 216 00:11:03,380 --> 00:11:07,240 But this interactive engaging style where you're asking questions, 217 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:11,960 and maybe you don't have a lot in your lesson plan and it's mostly interaction 218 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:13,640 and engagement, uh, 219 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,720 of certainly that there's a role for testifying and teaching, 220 00:11:17,060 --> 00:11:18,480 but we have this other element. 221 00:11:18,670 --> 00:11:21,600 That's a really difficult challenge right now in the church, 222 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,280 trying to get that transition to happen, particularly for, 223 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:28,400 for the later generation. Yeah. Even love and bite share and missionary work. 224 00:11:28,700 --> 00:11:31,840 You know, a lot of people's belief bias says, well, that doesn't apply to me. 225 00:11:32,260 --> 00:11:37,080 I'm not a good missionary. I have no one I can talk to. So we shut down. 226 00:11:37,710 --> 00:11:39,600 I think the brethren are working really hard. 227 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,160 That brother and sister leaders are working really hard to try to open our minds 228 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,400 and say, everybody can participate and love and invite share, 229 00:11:46,460 --> 00:11:50,040 and here's how you do it. Yeah. So there's some real challenging, uh, 230 00:11:50,170 --> 00:11:53,680 efforts we all have as local leaders to try to carry the water to the end of the 231 00:11:53,680 --> 00:11:55,440 row to make that happen. So, 232 00:11:56,210 --> 00:11:59,360 so we go to our meetings and we start preaching and teaching, 233 00:11:59,620 --> 00:12:02,640 but nothing's really changed. And we, 234 00:12:02,680 --> 00:12:04,720 we're not really being honest with ourselves, 235 00:12:04,830 --> 00:12:06,240 then we're not getting any traction. 236 00:12:06,740 --> 00:12:08,720 And I think it's really important to stop and say, 237 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:10,880 why am I not getting traction? Well, 238 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,560 because of the way people think it's not the way they act. 239 00:12:13,910 --> 00:12:16,960 It's how they're thinking about this, that our thinking drives our actions. 240 00:12:17,530 --> 00:12:21,080 So how do I get 'em to a place where they go, oh, that's interesting. 241 00:12:21,310 --> 00:12:22,560 That could apply to me. 242 00:12:22,560 --> 00:12:26,200 That might be a good thought that comes through experiences. And so if, 243 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:30,360 as we seek the spirit to know what kind of powerful experiences can I create for 244 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,680 the people I'm leading to help them get to that point where they suspend 245 00:12:33,680 --> 00:12:36,680 confirmation bias. That's, that's really what comes first. 246 00:12:36,680 --> 00:12:39,960 Yeah. Do any experiences come to mind from your time as a mission president, 247 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,520 as far as like the application of a lot with what you're saying? Um, like what, 248 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:44,960 what did this look like in, in practice? 249 00:12:45,230 --> 00:12:49,840 Well, in simple terms, um, and this is kind of a funny one, the, 250 00:12:50,610 --> 00:12:53,120 uh, missionaries we're teaching, I don't know, 251 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:57,320 maybe seven to seven to eight lessons a week and, uh, 252 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:00,720 the area 70 and the, at the time, 253 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,560 the presidency of the 70 asked us to teach 20 lessons a week. Of course, 254 00:13:04,560 --> 00:13:07,120 that's a great idea. The more missionaries are teaching the busier. 255 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,240 There are the better life is right. So, uh, 256 00:13:10,690 --> 00:13:13,960 so it was an interesting process to get them to think differently because many 257 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,160 of them thought that would be totally impossible, 20 lessons a week. 258 00:13:16,300 --> 00:13:21,240 How could that possibly be done? And, uh, so we had a couple of, uh, 259 00:13:21,380 --> 00:13:25,760 companionships that took that challenge and working with them, they, 260 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:27,400 they taught 30 lessons a week. 261 00:13:27,940 --> 00:13:31,080 And so we began to let them share their experience oh, wow. 262 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,400 About what they did and when they would missionaries would hear that in zone 263 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:38,200 convers, they go, oh, that's interesting. Maybe I can do that too. 264 00:13:38,220 --> 00:13:42,080 Now we got 'em. Yeah. Yeah. Because the belief bias is suspended. Mm. 265 00:13:42,420 --> 00:13:44,960 And now we can reorient their selective perception. 266 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:49,120 The great thing about selective perception and belief bias is it can also work 267 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:52,960 for you once you suspend it and you get people thinking new, 268 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,400 new ways of doing things bias, kicks back in, 269 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,040 and they're looking for evidence that supports the new way. Yeah. 270 00:13:59,380 --> 00:14:01,800 And now they're filtering their environmental, locking it in. 271 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,360 Yeah. I love that. Love that. And I'm just thinking, 272 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:08,600 and I love that example of like having missionaries stand and share their 273 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,040 personal experience. You know, a lot of time we feel like, you know, we, 274 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,560 maybe we need to reiterate, you know, this scripture and you know, 275 00:14:14,560 --> 00:14:17,240 you really got, you know, the sins will be over your head. You know, 276 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,320 we sort of do this, this scare tactic or, or motivating through, 277 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,000 through those things. But in reality, 278 00:14:22,110 --> 00:14:26,680 just show them an example of what works and then let them apply and be motivated 279 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:27,080 by it. We. 280 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,240 Make this mistake as leaders in the church all the time. 281 00:14:29,330 --> 00:14:32,160 It not just in the church, but leaders in general. Yeah. 282 00:14:32,260 --> 00:14:36,400 But in the church setting, we keep doing the same thing over and over again, 283 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,280 expecting a different result. right, right. We don't even know, 284 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,360 we don't need to call that what that is. Right. But we, 285 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:46,800 we continue just to go to meetings and say the same things and hoping things 286 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:47,633 will get better. 287 00:14:47,790 --> 00:14:52,400 When are we gonna stop the insanity on that and realize that doesn't work. 288 00:14:52,620 --> 00:14:57,560 And we have to become more thoughtful as leaders about how I suspend belief by 289 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,960 us. How do I get people ready for this change I want 'em to make, 290 00:15:01,220 --> 00:15:04,640 and then introduce that change in a way that really does great traction. Yeah. 291 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,720 Yeah. That's awesome. All right. We got 'em warmed up. The audience is there, 292 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:11,600 let let's jump into to, uh, divine patterns seeking the blessings of heaven. 293 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,080 This is the, the, the title of the book that you wrote. What was the, 294 00:15:16,340 --> 00:15:20,000 was there a moment when this idea came to you or is this just based off of your 295 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,920 work in your professional life or where, where did this, this begin for you? 296 00:15:24,140 --> 00:15:27,160 You know, it's been so long now. I don't even remember where that started, 297 00:15:27,220 --> 00:15:29,080 but somewhere along the line, 298 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:34,080 this insight came that there are connections in the scriptures 299 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:39,040 that are super powerful and simple and are really useful in, 300 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:41,400 in terms of that context, looking at it that way. I mean, there's, 301 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,360 there's patterns everywhere you go and everything, right. Yeah. 302 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,640 And patterns are, they're really mental models that show us what to do. 303 00:15:48,340 --> 00:15:52,800 And when you kind of get that insight, I remember my little grandson, he was, 304 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:54,920 uh, we were going outside to play and he's real excited. 305 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:56,560 And so he is gonna put on his, his, 306 00:15:56,940 --> 00:15:59,960 his play pants and his shoes and go meet me out there. 307 00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:04,600 And I started hearing this crying and frustration coming from the mudroom and I 308 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,240 thought, okay, something's wrong? So I turned around the corner and there, 309 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:11,840 he was trying to put on his pants over his shoes, Uhhuh . 310 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:16,760 And I thought, well, there's a pattern pants before shoes. That's a good one. 311 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:17,760 Right? Yeah. It tells you what to do. 312 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:19,880 So serving us a long time is serve us a long time. 313 00:16:20,260 --> 00:16:23,160 And so you find those patterns everywhere and particularly in the scriptures. 314 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,800 And so there are these scriptural patterns that you're just powerful and, 315 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:28,480 and really, uh, 316 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:32,400 you have a 90% chance of discovering a pattern almost anytime you pick up the 317 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:33,520 scriptures and start reading. Mm. 318 00:16:33,670 --> 00:16:35,000 Yeah. And, you know, 319 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,720 going back to the cognitive bias and the way our brain works and how we're 320 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:41,920 wired, which is, which was done by a, a heavenly father. Um, I mean, we, 321 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,480 we function on patterns and routines. That's like how we're built. 322 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:46,320 Does that sort of the basis where we're starting. 323 00:16:46,630 --> 00:16:51,080 Yeah. And I think sometimes, uh, even as leaders work with people, 324 00:16:51,140 --> 00:16:54,840 you know, the question becomes, well, where do we start? Mm-hmm . 325 00:16:54,900 --> 00:16:58,200 And I think the best place to start is identifying an appropriate pattern. 326 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:02,440 That's specific to their unique situation and, and needs. For example, 327 00:17:02,970 --> 00:17:06,200 we know that one of the patterns is that in order for us to be forgiven, 328 00:17:06,530 --> 00:17:08,160 we have to forgive others. Yeah. 329 00:17:08,490 --> 00:17:11,240 So for working with someone who's seeking forgiveness in their lives, 330 00:17:11,690 --> 00:17:12,840 we should apply that pattern. 331 00:17:13,380 --> 00:17:16,400 The promise is very clear from the savior that when we forgive, 332 00:17:16,850 --> 00:17:18,040 we will be forgiven. 333 00:17:18,550 --> 00:17:21,280 Yeah. Now, and my mind goes to the, you know, 334 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,320 which gets a lot of grief these days, you know, that, what is it, 335 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:28,080 the four or five RS of repentance where we, we want to like, you know, 336 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:30,640 insert this pattern that maybe is too primary, 337 00:17:30,770 --> 00:17:35,160 or it makes it too rigid where maybe repentance is a much more organic 338 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,680 processes happening. So I mean, how, 339 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:42,040 how is there a place sometimes where we get in danger or get in trouble with 340 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:44,520 trying to apply a pattern where it doesn't fit. 341 00:17:45,110 --> 00:17:45,600 Yeah. 342 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,080 And I think you can think about patterns in a way that's really helpful and 343 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,280 useful and think about patterns in a way that's, uh, 344 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,480 difficult and restrictive, like steps to repentance. 345 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,080 That was the old way of thinking about repentance. Right? Yeah. 346 00:17:59,220 --> 00:18:03,120 And the brethren have helped us understand better that it's not a step by step 347 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,080 sequence, but it does consist of some elements. 348 00:18:06,410 --> 00:18:09,720 So there are patterns to repentance that apply. 349 00:18:10,180 --> 00:18:13,280 But when we get too formulaic, that's when we get into problems. 350 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,240 Mm there's no heavenly vending machine, right? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. 351 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:18,400 You put in the token and outcomes, the blessing, 352 00:18:18,950 --> 00:18:22,400 it's all regulated by God and the way that he intervenes with his children. 353 00:18:22,430 --> 00:18:22,920 Yeah. 354 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:23,840 And I've noticed this, 355 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,520 that I think naturally this is just maybe human nature or whatever, 356 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:30,840 but we want to turn life into equations, right. 357 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:34,800 Like a plus B equal C and just, just follow the equation and life is good. 358 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:36,480 You're happy. Everything's wonderful. 359 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,960 But though equations are some form of a pattern. That's not necessarily, 360 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,560 we're not trying to turn everything into a math equation. Is that fair to say. 361 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:45,680 That's exactly right. So I think there, there, 362 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,640 there are association of ideas, 363 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,600 the way I think about patterns it's as an association of ideas, 364 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,360 like for example, uh, 365 00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:57,320 faith and miracles in Boza eight chapter, uh, 366 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:01,280 chapter eight versus 18, uh, the scripture says, thus, 367 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:06,160 God has provided a means that man through faith might work many mighty 368 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:10,400 miracles. Therefore he become with the great benefit to the fellow beings. Well, 369 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:14,240 there's a, there's an association of pattern, there's faith and miracles. Hmm. 370 00:19:14,380 --> 00:19:19,080 And that's a pattern. Uh, I remember as a young missionary, 371 00:19:19,690 --> 00:19:22,120 uh, my companion and I came home from a, 372 00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:25,800 a mission zone conference in inter zone conference, a mission president said, 373 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,680 you should be paying your fast offering as missionaries. And that was new to us. 374 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,920 I was, I was a converter maybe a year at the time. And I was learning a lot. 375 00:19:33,940 --> 00:19:36,280 And, uh, my companion didn't realize it either. We thought, oh, 376 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,280 we're supposed to be paying fast offering as missionaries. 377 00:19:38,510 --> 00:19:41,760 This was back when we provided all of our funds there wasn't this uniform 378 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,520 funding. Oh. And, uh, so we went home. 379 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:46,320 I remember us sitting at this little kitchen table. 380 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,600 It was in the afternoon after his own conference. And we both thought, okay, 381 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:50,880 we should pair a fast offering. 382 00:19:51,170 --> 00:19:54,960 We each had a $5 bill left and we had one week left to go to the end of the 383 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:56,280 month before our money came again. 384 00:19:56,740 --> 00:19:59,720 And so we're looking at each other and we're thinking, okay, should we do it? 385 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:03,080 And we said, yes. So we took this envelope. We each put our $5 bill, 386 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,320 our last cash in the envelope and said, all right, 387 00:20:06,570 --> 00:20:09,760 there's our fast offering now, Lord, what are you gonna do? 388 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:14,560 Literally within two minutes, the word mission leader phones, uh, 389 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:18,800 makes a phone call to us. And we answer the phone. He says, well, elders, 390 00:20:19,030 --> 00:20:21,360 I was just thinking about you. This is such an inspired man. 391 00:20:21,710 --> 00:20:24,840 I was just thinking about you. And I thought, I'd take you to dinner tonight. 392 00:20:25,120 --> 00:20:27,560 nice. We're like fantastic. He says, where do you want to go? 393 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:28,440 We're like, 394 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,080 we wanna go to Sizzler for the all you can eat shrimp dinner so we can just tank 395 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,960 up on shrimp. We didn't tell him a thing about what was going on. 396 00:20:35,410 --> 00:20:38,000 So we get to the, to the restaurant, have our meal. 397 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,360 It was great on the way home. He says, 398 00:20:40,360 --> 00:20:43,480 do you mind if I make a stop at the store? We said, no, that'd be great. 399 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,760 So he stops at the grocery store. He says, you, you just wait here. 400 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:46,593 I'll be right back. 401 00:20:46,730 --> 00:20:50,680 So he is gone actually for quite a while and we're wondering what's going on. 402 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,720 And finally he comes out and he has this, uh, you know, shop assistant, 403 00:20:54,930 --> 00:20:58,200 pushing this trolley with several cases of canned food. 404 00:20:58,690 --> 00:21:01,440 So we're helping him load in the back of the car. We're kind of joking with him. 405 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,320 And he is loading up on his food storage and he says, no, elders, 406 00:21:04,510 --> 00:21:09,280 this is for you. I bought these cans of food for you. We're sitting here going, 407 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:14,000 oh my goodness. He had no idea what was going on. And then, uh, as, 408 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,600 as we approached the, the apartment, we explained him what would happen. 409 00:21:17,140 --> 00:21:20,200 And we were back sitting at our kitchen table about two hours later, 410 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,200 after putting the $5 on an envelope, we had an all, 411 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:27,880 you can eat shrimp dinner at Sizzler and five cases of canned food. Nice. 412 00:21:27,940 --> 00:21:31,920 And you know, the association is that faith produces miracles. 413 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:32,700 Right. 414 00:21:32,700 --> 00:21:35,280 And it happens in God's way in his time. 415 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,160 Mm-hmm and according to his will, but it happens. 416 00:21:38,390 --> 00:21:42,280 Yeah. And, um, and then that's the question. I remember my wife and I, 417 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:47,160 we got married in January of 20 or 2006 in Idaho falls. 418 00:21:47,730 --> 00:21:52,040 Uh, not a heavy snow year and we were gonna be married to Idaho falls temple. 419 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:56,400 And we, I, we sincerely, once we visited Idaho falls temple, and we were like, 420 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:00,600 ah, man, we really hope that there's snow for a wedding. Right. And we, 421 00:22:00,610 --> 00:22:03,400 we sort of came together sort of this young couple. And we're like, you know, 422 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:08,400 let's, let's show some faith and fast and pray for some snow. Well, 423 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,240 I'll show you all my wedding pictures. It's dead green, you know, dead gray, 424 00:22:12,670 --> 00:22:14,040 yellow grass. Right. 425 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,880 And so cuz there there's sometimes that dynamic where then I could, 426 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,160 I could use that sort of an excuse of losing faith. Like, well wait a minute, 427 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:24,520 you know, Roger talked about, you know, this, yeah. This pattern that, 428 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,200 that worked for him, like maybe I don't have as much faith or, you know, 429 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,760 then we start inserting reasons. So like how do we reconcile those, 430 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:32,840 those two experiences? 431 00:22:33,950 --> 00:22:37,920 I think it's really important to understand that we don't earn blessings. Uh, 432 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,840 they don't come to us because we did something mm-hmm elder Reland 433 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:46,120 talks about having this activating energy that starts the process of qualifying. 434 00:22:46,770 --> 00:22:49,560 So that's an important understanding that a, 435 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:53,000 a pattern for receiving blessings is that we don't earn them. 436 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:57,720 We qualify for them by doing what we can. And then it's up to God to, 437 00:22:58,250 --> 00:23:02,360 uh, to deliver as he sees is wise for our lives. 438 00:23:02,470 --> 00:23:05,480 Like he has, I believe he has. And I write about this in the book, 439 00:23:05,910 --> 00:23:10,240 this clause called do no harm. It's like the Hippocratic oath do no harm. Yeah. 440 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:10,940 Yeah. 441 00:23:10,940 --> 00:23:15,680 And it is that God will not bestow upon us blessings that 442 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,840 aren't for our good, at that moment in time. Yeah. I mean, 443 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:20,480 it's not right for everybody to win the lottery. Right. 444 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,120 It's not gonna be a really great thing for everyone to do it. Yeah. 445 00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:26,960 I wouldn't mind it I'm most wouldn't mind it, but it may not be the right thing. 446 00:23:27,420 --> 00:23:32,320 And so we have this trust that this all wise, all-knowing loving, 447 00:23:32,460 --> 00:23:36,480 God will make sure that the right thing happens at the right time for us. 448 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,440 Yeah. And from a leadership standpoint, I mean, what, 449 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:41,360 what guidance will give there, 450 00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:45,640 cuz sometimes we want to be the leader that promises blessings or says, 451 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:50,320 you know, if you do a, B and C life is gonna be much better for you. And uh, 452 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:54,640 and we're maybe partly thinking, I'm pretty sure it will be anyways, go for it. 453 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:54,880 You know, 454 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,640 cuz there is obviously there is a benefit of having of inserting ourselves in, 455 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,440 in patterns in life, especially those that have been established by God, 456 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,200 through scriptures and living profits. 457 00:24:03,360 --> 00:24:07,760 And so anything you'd say from that point of the leader that is sort of 458 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,000 promising or saying, if you do this pattern, 459 00:24:10,110 --> 00:24:13,200 this will happen or any guidance there. 460 00:24:13,950 --> 00:24:15,960 This, so this is a personal perspective. 461 00:24:16,030 --> 00:24:20,760 I think the old way was to stand up and promise if you payer tithing, 462 00:24:20,820 --> 00:24:23,600 the windows of he will open and all your problems will be solved. 463 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:25,000 You get that check in the mail, right. 464 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,600 That's just gonna come. The new way is to stridently, 465 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,360 make that promise that the windows have happened will open, but to, 466 00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:36,120 to continue the conversation by teaching and it will happen in, 467 00:24:36,210 --> 00:24:39,560 in the Lord's way and in the Lord's time and according to his will, 468 00:24:39,940 --> 00:24:43,880 for the best benefit of you. Yeah. We have to be complete in our, 469 00:24:44,010 --> 00:24:47,480 in our understanding of how it really works, that we don't earn blessings, 470 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,160 that we qualify that they don't come because we deserve it. 471 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,560 They come because God is ready to grant it because it's the right time for us in 472 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:54,880 our lives. 473 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,440 Yeah. And it goes back to my, my personal story, you know, 474 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,560 obviously it didn't propel us into a faith crisis because there wasn't snow on, 475 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,120 on our wedding day. But, um, it, it is it, 476 00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:10,600 I think it showed to God that we were willing to turn to him for 477 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,040 blessings for um, hope. And in that, you know, 478 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,120 I'm sure that blessing from that, 479 00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:20,760 that humble moment came in many other forms and we are definitely more, 480 00:25:20,940 --> 00:25:21,720 you know, 481 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,720 faithful individuals because we sort of had those patterns early on and he knew 482 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,240 at the end of the day, you don't really need to snow on your wedding day. 483 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,840 Occurred. There were probably five other people praying that it wouldn't snow. 484 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:31,240 I know. 485 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,280 Right. and that's the. 486 00:25:34,710 --> 00:25:35,560 That's the rub. 487 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,520 Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, um, what's the scripture, 488 00:25:38,540 --> 00:25:40,720 the Lord is bound when you do it. I say, Dr comes. 489 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:41,080 He's. 490 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,080 82, 10 82 10. Right. Um, 491 00:25:43,370 --> 00:25:47,160 because that's another scripture that sort of hard to sit with of being, and, 492 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,360 and you see it a lot in, in the scriptures of being like, 493 00:25:49,360 --> 00:25:53,680 I remember my mission president inviting us to be super 494 00:25:53,790 --> 00:25:56,600 obedient because we had certain goals that we were trying to reach. 495 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,600 I don't know if he was right or wrong in doing that, but I there's sort of this, 496 00:25:59,990 --> 00:26:04,200 this pattern that we established or this equation we established early on in our 497 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,560 faith tradition of saying, you know, let's bind the Lord, you know, 498 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,040 let's use his godly power by doing everything that is and having to have a 499 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,760 choice then to bless us how we wanna be blessed. 500 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:15,600 Like that's sort of what we insert at the end. Right. Right. 501 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,640 So just with that scripture in mind, 502 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,240 any other guidance or thoughts that come to mind? 503 00:26:20,790 --> 00:26:21,840 Well, I think it's, 504 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:26,040 I think it's a powerful principle to trust in the promises of God and to 505 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,600 anticipate the, the outcomes, uh, 506 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,200 blessings mm-hmm and that we should, 507 00:26:32,250 --> 00:26:33,760 we should have great faith in that, 508 00:26:34,260 --> 00:26:37,840 but sometimes we overdo it with our agency. 509 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,320 We're we're telling the Lord what he needs to do. Mm-hmm , 510 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:41,960 we're telling him how he needs to bless us. 511 00:26:42,580 --> 00:26:47,440 And isn't it better that we trust in him and want to be blessed the way he wants 512 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,040 us to be blessed and the trust that he will do it. Yeah. I mean, he really, 513 00:26:51,140 --> 00:26:55,680 the question becomes, is it my will or I will. I always, I used to tell, used, 514 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,400 tell my missionaries all the time you can have what you want or you can have 515 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:03,000 something better and that's something better is always what God wants 516 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:03,833 for us. 517 00:27:04,130 --> 00:27:09,000 So we really make a mistake when we don't imply that we're subject to his 518 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,800 will and wanting to seek his understanding of what he wants to have happen. 519 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:14,400 We may know what, not know what that is. 520 00:27:14,610 --> 00:27:19,240 So we may just have to trust whatever outcome presents itself is in line with 521 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,320 his thinking of what he wants to have happen. Yeah. 522 00:27:21,530 --> 00:27:23,800 So takes us to the context of being a mission president. 523 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,760 And how did you do that? Cuz just from this context of you, 524 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:28,880 you're leading a group of individuals, 525 00:27:29,380 --> 00:27:31,840 you have maybe bold goals and, 526 00:27:31,900 --> 00:27:34,760 and vision that you want to have come to pass. 527 00:27:35,860 --> 00:27:39,200 And so it's natural to try and motivate them through, you know, 528 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:43,240 we're gonna be super obedient. So this, these visions and goals come to pass or, 529 00:27:43,660 --> 00:27:47,240 but then it's a bad month. So then how do you address them or, and, and, 530 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,000 and keep these patterns, you know, 531 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,760 working in their life rather than having them dismiss it or being, 532 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,600 or question themselves. So in that context, anything come to mind or a. 533 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,360 Story. Great, great questions and thoughts. And I think, I think, you know, 534 00:27:58,380 --> 00:28:00,240 you learn a lot as a mission president, 535 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,840 you probably start off the wrong way and end up closer to the right way. 536 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,400 That's why he be three years. That's why they give you three years. So I think, 537 00:28:06,510 --> 00:28:09,000 I think it's more about teaching correct principles. 538 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,920 Mm-hmm as opposed to driving a specific objective and in the 539 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:15,640 context of teaching those correct principles, 540 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,040 you're setting goals and trying to, to grow the kingdom of God. 541 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,960 Mm-hmm um, I remember this one young man. 542 00:28:23,050 --> 00:28:25,400 It was actually before he went out in the mission field, 543 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,640 he wanted to be a missionary. And uh, he was, he was overweight. He, 544 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,160 he was not allowed to go because of his situation. 545 00:28:32,940 --> 00:28:37,360 And so he said, well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna qualify. I'm gonna go, 546 00:28:37,380 --> 00:28:38,480 I'm gonna go work on this. 547 00:28:38,940 --> 00:28:43,200 And so we had this huge road in front of the stake center called the monster and 548 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,840 it was about a mile long and it was about a mile high. I mean, 549 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,840 this was like a nuts, it was, it was a tough road to ride on a bike. 550 00:28:49,540 --> 00:28:53,160 And he started riding that, that monster every day. And he said, present, 551 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,000 I know, and I'll be ready. And so I was his state president at the time. 552 00:28:56,330 --> 00:28:59,320 He said, when I get to the top of the hill, when I conquer the monster, 553 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,200 I'll be ready to go. I said, all right, well keep me updated. 554 00:29:02,490 --> 00:29:04,880 So he would update me from time to time. And he, 555 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,480 he worked at it and he was really a hard worker. 556 00:29:08,180 --> 00:29:12,080 And one day he called me on his phone and he said, okay, I did it. 557 00:29:12,190 --> 00:29:15,520 I conquered the monster and I that's no way he says, yeah, I did it. 558 00:29:16,010 --> 00:29:18,680 So we applied and he was accepted in the mission field. And he, 559 00:29:19,190 --> 00:29:22,320 I think about seven months later, I got a call from his mission president, 560 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,920 usually as a state president, we're eating call from mission present. Yeah. 561 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:27,360 It's not generally good news. Yeah. 562 00:29:27,700 --> 00:29:29,400 And a lot is transpired at that point. 563 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,240 That's right. All good news. 564 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:35,120 This mission present was raving about how effective this missionary was. 565 00:29:35,620 --> 00:29:38,960 And I started thinking, you know, had he not had that experience? 566 00:29:39,690 --> 00:29:42,080 He wouldn't have been that in the mission field. 567 00:29:42,260 --> 00:29:43,160 Yes. Yes. 568 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,600 The Lord had something planned for him and he trusted in that. Yeah. 569 00:29:46,900 --> 00:29:49,440 And so just applying these correct principles, 570 00:29:49,530 --> 00:29:52,560 he found himself in a situation where God could bless him. 571 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,040 Yeah. And that's what, you know, 572 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,440 going back to this concept of patterns that I really appreciate is the 573 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:01,440 sanctifying nature of it that you, and this is where you bind the Lord. 574 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:03,720 Like if you turn your life over to God, 575 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,680 he will make of you something that you could never be make of yourself. 576 00:30:07,820 --> 00:30:11,960 And I mean, that's a guarantee. Right. And so, yeah, and it may be messy and, 577 00:30:12,540 --> 00:30:17,240 and complicated and you may have more downs than up at times. It feels, 578 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,760 but at the end of this, you're gonna think, wow, like look what he did to, 579 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,400 to me to help me progress. And that's that pattern is everywhere. Right. 580 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:26,760 For sure. And you know, we hear, 581 00:30:26,770 --> 00:30:31,200 we hear less about binding the Lord on something and more about binding yourself 582 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,760 to Jesus Christ. Yeah. By walking the covenant path. Yeah. 583 00:30:33,980 --> 00:30:38,680 And I think there's real power in just if elder 584 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,880 elder Badar. I thought it was so interesting when he talked about it. I was, 585 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,880 I was, when I was serving at the MTC, he came and spoke several times. 586 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,800 And I remember him, this is, this was kind of funny cuz we actually had, um, 587 00:30:49,860 --> 00:30:54,600 had him come then we had another member of the 12 come. It was elder Scott. 588 00:30:54,780 --> 00:30:59,720 Now Scott came first and elder Scott came and he taught 21 principles of how 589 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,240 to feel the spirit. And it was two pages front back. 590 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,880 It was probably eight point to font, font size. 591 00:31:06,540 --> 00:31:09,640 And we were asked not to distribute this document, but it was, 592 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,360 it was like dense. It was great. It was wonderful. 593 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:13,560 He went through all these things. 594 00:31:14,060 --> 00:31:17,920 The Nel Bedner shows up about a year later and he's speaking to missionaries, 595 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,200 same context, same setting. And he just says, 596 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:26,200 don't worry about it. Just be a good boy or a good girl, do the right thing. 597 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:27,320 And the spirit will guide you. 598 00:31:27,900 --> 00:31:30,680 And we're just kinda laughing cuz we've got right. Wait a minute. 599 00:31:30,710 --> 00:31:34,160 What about these 21 principles that we learned? And you're just saying, 600 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,920 don't worry about it. Obviously. He was saying, the starting point is, 601 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,840 don't worry about it. You're going to be guided. God will bless you. 602 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:43,280 He'll be with you. He'll help you. 603 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,120 And you won't know you're being guided most of the time that it's happening. 604 00:31:46,700 --> 00:31:48,560 But as you grow in your spiritual journey, 605 00:31:48,850 --> 00:31:52,280 there's these other concepts and principles that will help you refine your 606 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,280 ability to listen to the spirit, which is what elder Scott was talking about. 607 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:55,940 Yes. 608 00:31:55,940 --> 00:31:57,960 But it's this general promise that look, 609 00:31:58,250 --> 00:32:01,720 if you're doing the best you can to walk the covenant path and you're binding 610 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:02,753 yourself to the savior. 611 00:32:03,620 --> 00:32:06,720 You can be assured that these promises will come to pass. 612 00:32:07,270 --> 00:32:11,520 They will come at in his time and his way, but they will come. 613 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,160 Don't lose faith in that. Don't lose hope of that. 614 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,960 I I've talked to people when I was writing this book. I, 615 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,680 I interviewed a number of people who feel like the Lords, let him down. 616 00:32:21,050 --> 00:32:22,640 He hasn't come through with his promises. 617 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,040 Mm-hmm they were on plan a at one time. 618 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,080 Now they're on plan G and how is that fair to them? 619 00:32:28,580 --> 00:32:31,360 Why isn't he doing for him? What he does for others? 620 00:32:32,180 --> 00:32:37,000 And the only explanation I can give is hold on, continue faithful. 621 00:32:37,220 --> 00:32:41,400 And he will come through for you, no matter what your circumstances were. 622 00:32:41,850 --> 00:32:44,480 If you were walking the covenant path bound to the savior, 623 00:32:45,210 --> 00:32:46,680 he will come through for you. 624 00:32:46,950 --> 00:32:48,240 Yeah. And, and that, 625 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:52,160 that can be such a difficult place to be as a leader is when someone comes to 626 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:56,520 like, all right, Bishop, I'm on plan Z. Now what's after this. Right. And, 627 00:32:56,780 --> 00:32:59,840 but we have that assurance that, you know, like we said that as, 628 00:32:59,850 --> 00:33:02,480 as we bind ourselves to Jesus Christ on, on that path, 629 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:07,240 like it made just even being in that, waiting for that blessing. 630 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:11,000 Like that is a way that he's blessing us in the moment to learn how to be more 631 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,400 faithful. He's developing us. And, but it's so hard to see right. When you're, 632 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,720 you're sitting in that gutter and, and you, you were hoping for something more. 633 00:33:18,830 --> 00:33:22,040 I came home from my mission as a mission present three months early on a medical 634 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,920 leave. Hmm. I was diagnosed with stage four non-Hodgkin's lymph lymphoma cancer. 635 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:26,400 Oh my. 636 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:26,830 Goodness. 637 00:33:26,830 --> 00:33:30,760 They thought I was gonna die. And uh, you know, 638 00:33:30,830 --> 00:33:35,320 I went through chemo and all the stuff that goes along with that and was fully 639 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,280 cured from that. Thankfully that's not always how it happens. Yeah. 640 00:33:38,350 --> 00:33:40,200 It's how it happened in my situation. 641 00:33:40,700 --> 00:33:43,320 But things will happen in life that seem unfair. 642 00:33:43,710 --> 00:33:47,880 That make you feel like a victim that just come out of nowhere out of the blue 643 00:33:48,250 --> 00:33:50,400 doesn't happen to other people. But it happened to you. 644 00:33:51,130 --> 00:33:53,920 If you lose too much time asking why you're gonna be disappointed, 645 00:33:54,230 --> 00:33:56,680 that why question is hardly ever answered. 646 00:33:57,140 --> 00:34:01,400 The question to ask is not why it's, what, what should I do next? 647 00:34:01,710 --> 00:34:06,280 Yeah. Focusing on that next step. And uh, because of that, 648 00:34:06,610 --> 00:34:10,480 um, it's really been just a coincident thing that happened in my life. 649 00:34:10,910 --> 00:34:13,440 It's not how I defined my life and it's not, 650 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,240 not what has defined the rest of my life. And I'm grateful for that. 651 00:34:17,860 --> 00:34:18,920 But I just, 652 00:34:19,190 --> 00:34:22,600 I just fundamentally believe that no matter what challenge you've been through, 653 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,640 no matter how hard it's been, there's purpose in it, 654 00:34:25,720 --> 00:34:28,720 we've been told that all of these trials have their purpose. 655 00:34:29,220 --> 00:34:33,400 And if we can just trust that and know that he has not left us and he'll help 656 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:34,920 us, that's that's the right way to be. Yeah. 657 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,040 And that goes back to maybe our wiring again, is for some reason, 658 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,000 we're desperate to know the why we want the purpose of all this. 659 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,320 Cause we feel like if we can understand the purpose, then, 660 00:34:43,350 --> 00:34:46,560 then I can go one more day. But instead to ship that, to get over it. 661 00:34:46,780 --> 00:34:50,360 Get over the why, just drop it. If the Lord wants you to know it, 662 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,400 it will present itself. But it's so rare that we'll find the answer to that. 663 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,360 Or it's 20 years in the future. Right. Right. 664 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:55,980 Exactly. 665 00:34:55,980 --> 00:34:59,880 And we just have to wait for it. Right. All right. Let me, 666 00:34:59,910 --> 00:35:04,360 I know I've got you to bounce all over your, this outline here, but, um, what, 667 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:09,240 what did you hope like with writing this book? What are the main takeaways? 668 00:35:09,240 --> 00:35:12,280 You hope someone reading this, uh, a latter day state reading list, 669 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:13,960 reading this book will, will take away. 670 00:35:14,630 --> 00:35:17,080 Well be conscious of the mental models or the, 671 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,480 the patterns that are found in the scriptures and that are taught by the leaders 672 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:25,320 of the church. They're there for a purpose. They help us know what to do. 673 00:35:25,890 --> 00:35:29,800 So use them to guide you and to guide other people, you know, 674 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:31,080 use the patterns to be, 675 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:36,040 to be aware of what steps I take and what I need to become in order to be in a 676 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:40,280 situation where I can be blessed by God. And then I think it's, uh, 677 00:35:40,470 --> 00:35:44,880 having a trust in his timing that it's not formulaic 678 00:35:45,270 --> 00:35:48,560 that, uh, it's not an equation, uh, 679 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,880 that those blessings will come in his own time, in his own way. I remember, 680 00:35:53,370 --> 00:35:57,920 uh, AF coming home from my mission, uh, as a new convert, I, 681 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,360 I didn't really know a lot of people in my area. So I, 682 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,680 I was going to a local community college and had gotten accepted at BYU night 683 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,880 school and, uh, uh, had decided not to go. And finally, 684 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,240 I met with my Bishop about a week before school started at BYU and he said, 685 00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:16,000 you know, Roger, yeah, you ought to go, like you should go do this. 686 00:36:16,660 --> 00:36:18,880 And so I finally said, okay, I'll, I'll do it. And I, 687 00:36:19,190 --> 00:36:23,440 I jumped in my little Opal, that's a car okay. Never heard of that car. 688 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:27,680 It's a little it, little Opal. And it had a, a, you know, 689 00:36:28,370 --> 00:36:28,720 uh, 690 00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:33,040 plastic in the windshield duct tape in because the window was broken and it had 691 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,640 a gum wrapper holding up the rear view mirror. I mean, it was just, 692 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:39,520 it was pretty sad, but I loaded up the few things I had and I jumped in my car, 693 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:44,480 drove from Southern California to Provo 750 miles had no idea what I would 694 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,040 do when I arrived in Provo, just knew I should go. 695 00:36:47,660 --> 00:36:50,240 And I just offered a prayer to my heavenly father and said, you know, 696 00:36:50,240 --> 00:36:52,040 you've promised, you'll take care of your return missionaries. 697 00:36:52,250 --> 00:36:55,360 So I need you to take care of me. And I did the drive, 698 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,760 remember pulling into provost about nine. It was about seven o'clock that night. 699 00:36:59,820 --> 00:37:01,960 And it was 900 east and center street. 700 00:37:02,340 --> 00:37:05,400 And I was sitting at that intersection thinking, okay, I'm here. 701 00:37:05,790 --> 00:37:09,880 What am I gonna do? Like, I have no place to stay tonight. And as I looked over, 702 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,280 something said, go to that little apartment square. And it's still there. Now. 703 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:14,480 It was called Fairmont square at the time. 704 00:37:15,090 --> 00:37:18,600 So I drove over to this apartment complex. I knocked on the door manager, 705 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,440 came to the door and she says, what do you need? And I said, well, 706 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:22,200 I'm looking for a place to stay. I'm going to school. 707 00:37:22,540 --> 00:37:24,520 And she was really razzing me for, you know, it's like, 708 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,160 it's just like six days away now. And she says, 709 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:31,520 I have one bed left in the apartment complex. You can go meet the roommates. 710 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,880 And if that works for them, then you can have it. So I said, okay. 711 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:36,400 So I started walking down the hall to, 712 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:41,240 to the room and I'm thinking for the first time roommates and considered 713 00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:43,400 that wonder what that's gonna be like Uhhuh . 714 00:37:43,490 --> 00:37:47,040 So I knock on the door and, uh, when the door opens, 715 00:37:47,250 --> 00:37:51,120 there's three former missionary friends from the Georgia Atlanta mission that I 716 00:37:51,240 --> 00:37:53,200 served with standing on the other side of the threshold. Oh, nice. 717 00:37:53,660 --> 00:37:56,000 And they started laughing. They said, what do you need? And I said, well, 718 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,120 I'm looking for a place to stay. And they said, well, you found it. 719 00:37:58,500 --> 00:38:01,840 And that's where I stayed for my first year at school. I mean, if you, 720 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,360 I dunno if you followed that story, I went from Southern California, 721 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:10,680 700 miles to Provo knocked on one door for one bed. 722 00:38:11,180 --> 00:38:13,200 And that's where the Lord took me. Yeah. 723 00:38:13,380 --> 00:38:16,600 And it was an amazing marvelous experience. Yeah. 724 00:38:16,780 --> 00:38:20,280 And so I hope we, 725 00:38:20,610 --> 00:38:24,160 we reflect in our lives, seeing the hand of the Lord, 726 00:38:24,650 --> 00:38:28,320 knowing he's with us, he's actively involved in our lives. 727 00:38:28,890 --> 00:38:33,440 If you're not feeling that right now, you can be because he's interested in you, 728 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,080 he wants to be involved in your life. And as leaders, 729 00:38:36,730 --> 00:38:40,880 we have to make that connection for everyone first to make sure they're seeing 730 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,280 the hand of God in their life. Yeah. 731 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,240 And that's almost, sometimes you can do that, 732 00:38:45,240 --> 00:38:47,520 like the next day or in the moment, like, wow, 733 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,120 this could have never been orchestrated without God's hand. 734 00:38:50,740 --> 00:38:54,480 And other times it's, it's in the future, at least for my experience. Um, 735 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,800 you know, I've never been the type of person who like, you know, 736 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,000 with my realtor, I go to a neighborhood and I walk in this house. I'm just like, 737 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,160 oh my goodness. There's just something about this house. 738 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,080 Or we need to move here. Like, that's never been the case, 739 00:39:06,340 --> 00:39:10,720 but it's always like 10 years after or whatever. I'm like, oh, 740 00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:13,120 I remember when this and this and this happened. 741 00:39:13,380 --> 00:39:17,040 And that got me to look into this area and that now I ended up hearing, like, 742 00:39:17,150 --> 00:39:20,840 I God's hand was all through that, but in the moment, I'm just like, sure. 743 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,760 I mean, it's got what we need. Let's just move here. And, 744 00:39:23,900 --> 00:39:25,160 and we move forward with it. 745 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,080 And sometimes I beat myself up because I wanna be the person who's like 746 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:32,280 prayerful about everything and feels that, you know, the, the tinkle of, 747 00:39:32,370 --> 00:39:36,520 of the spirit as I, you know, make it one step forward. 748 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:39,080 But a lot of times I'm just like, sort of plowing forward and it, 749 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,960 but when I turn around, I'm like, oh yeah, there's God I'll I'll about that. 750 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:45,320 Right. Right. Yeah. So maybe just take us through, like, 751 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:49,080 just off the top of your head, just what these patterns in the scriptures or in, 752 00:39:49,410 --> 00:39:51,920 in conference talks or what, 753 00:39:52,110 --> 00:39:54,640 what are some good examples of some of these patterns, 754 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:56,360 these divine patterns that you speak of? 755 00:39:57,270 --> 00:40:00,680 Well, there's so many, like I said before, if you read open up description, 756 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,600 start reading, you have a 90% chance of discovering a pattern that very day, 757 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,800 you know, as you, as you read, uh, one example from ether 12, six, 758 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,960 and now I'm moron. I would speak somewhat concerning these things. 759 00:40:12,830 --> 00:40:16,800 I would show to the world that faith is things which are hoped for not seen 760 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,960 where for dispute, not because you see not for you receive, no, 761 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:25,280 you receive no witness until after the trial of your faith. So there's a, 762 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:30,120 there's a pattern. The pattern is that we have this trial of our faith. 763 00:40:30,580 --> 00:40:34,360 And then there's an expectation that there will be a witness that God will show 764 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,480 us that he's there. Um, 765 00:40:36,710 --> 00:40:41,520 I experienced this coming out of MBA school at BYU. I wanted to work at Banin, 766 00:40:42,010 --> 00:40:46,440 uh, a strategic consulting firm. And it was a big deal. They came to our school, 767 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,160 they didn't interview a lot of people. And so it was, it was a choice job. 768 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,760 Everyone was after that was kinda like my plan C and D. It was like, 769 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,520 that's where I was gonna work. Be your best Baner best . 770 00:40:55,780 --> 00:40:58,440 And I actually got an interview. So I, I interviewed at seven, 771 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:00,840 I did seven interviews in San Francisco, seven in Boston. 772 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:05,680 So I did 14 interviews with the company Uhhuh. And the last interview was, nah, 773 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:07,040 we don't think you're a fit . 774 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:08,240 Oh, wow. Crushy. 775 00:41:08,900 --> 00:41:11,520 I'm like, what? And, you know, they said, 776 00:41:11,570 --> 00:41:16,360 we don't think you wanna travel as much as we travel. And, uh, ended up in my, 777 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:17,720 when I did get a job, I, 778 00:41:17,720 --> 00:41:22,120 I put a million miles on with American airlines in my first four years. But, uh, 779 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:26,240 they're like, yeah, that's your, this, your's not a fit. So I came back to the, 780 00:41:26,240 --> 00:41:30,960 uh, to the school, to, to the Marriott school and, and I'm thinking, okay, 781 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,000 what do I do now? And I remember, remember standing in the, uh, 782 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:38,400 the mail room of the MBA classes. They had little mailboxes and on the Wallace, 783 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,960 this little flyer for this little niche consulting firm coming from California, 784 00:41:42,310 --> 00:41:46,600 I thought, oh, you know, I'll give it a shot. So I applied, they hired me. 785 00:41:47,130 --> 00:41:51,800 It was a seven person consulting firm at the time. And, 786 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:55,960 but they were doing like the coolest work on organizational culture back then. 787 00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,000 No one, no one ever talked about corporate culture. Yeah. they were the, 788 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,000 the, the first ones. Oh, cool. And we did, I, 789 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,840 I did three mile island nuclear power plant when they had the meltdown almost. 790 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:09,880 And I went in afterwards and looked at the cultural characteristics of why I 791 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,800 worked with a high yield jump junk bond department in LA with John, uh, 792 00:42:13,910 --> 00:42:17,080 with Michael Milkin who was taken out. And then John Kissick Quinn. I mean, 793 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:19,280 these were like high profile stories. Oh, that's great. 794 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,040 I'm working on these really cool projects. And four years later, 795 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:27,920 I was able to start my own business in that industry and had a wonderful 796 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:32,040 thriving career there. So it was so much better than what I would've done. 797 00:42:32,700 --> 00:42:37,200 BAE, would've been great, but this was a way better fit for me in what happened. 798 00:42:37,210 --> 00:42:41,880 So, you know, there was a trial of my faith and, uh, 799 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,840 but then the witness came that the Lord was with me. He closed one door, 800 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,000 but opened another. Yeah. Yeah. What other patterns come to mind? 801 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:52,080 Rather proud few, uh, you know, you have, if you love me, keep my commandments. 802 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,280 That's a pattern, right? You've got, uh, 803 00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:59,960 let's try Matthew 21, 21, Jesus answered and sent it to them. Barely. 804 00:42:59,960 --> 00:43:03,440 I sent to you, if you have faith and doubt not, 805 00:43:03,900 --> 00:43:07,160 you should not only do this, which is done to the victory, 806 00:43:07,700 --> 00:43:10,160 but also if you shall say into this mountain, 807 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:14,240 be thou removed and be thou cast of the sea, it shall be done. 808 00:43:15,210 --> 00:43:18,320 So this pattern of having faith and not doubting, 809 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:22,320 but believing is a simple pattern that shows us that we can move mountains in 810 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:26,520 our lives. Hmm. So these are, these are simple things, 811 00:43:27,140 --> 00:43:30,800 but they're powerful concepts. And as we work with people, 812 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,400 let's say they have a big mountain in their life of trying to move. 813 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,520 I work with young one young man and still working with him. 814 00:43:37,410 --> 00:43:41,920 He came to me and he was near suicidal. I, I really thought he would, 815 00:43:41,930 --> 00:43:44,160 he would potentially take his life at some point. 816 00:43:44,770 --> 00:43:48,880 So job one was to get him to stay alive. Job two, he wasn't in school, 817 00:43:49,230 --> 00:43:53,760 didn't have a, a very productive, he was washing dishes for, for a job. 818 00:43:53,790 --> 00:43:56,360 It's like, okay, how do we get 'em in a better place? 819 00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,400 There were like these mountains that had to be moved along the way each time. 820 00:44:01,060 --> 00:44:04,320 And I think so. So how do you do that? Like as a leader sitting, you're going, 821 00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:07,400 how do I move these mountains? I mean, I could be tactical about it. Well, 822 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,160 we could look for job applications or whatever, 823 00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,000 but there's something bigger than that. 824 00:44:11,380 --> 00:44:16,120 And that is how do we exercise faith in this case and doubt not, 825 00:44:16,380 --> 00:44:18,120 but be believing, you know, 826 00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:20,760 what principles do we apply here that really help us to move these? 827 00:44:21,180 --> 00:44:24,800 And it was him that had to have the faith and the belief. So how, 828 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:29,160 how do we start with that? I remember he, uh, um, 829 00:44:29,970 --> 00:44:33,200 he, we, we had a prayer rock cuz he, we were trying to, 830 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,600 he was trying to establish prayer as a routine. So you know, 831 00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,000 this notion of a prayer rock on your pillow. So when you, your, 832 00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:42,960 your head hits the pillow, you hit the rock first. Oh yeah. I need to pray. And, 833 00:44:43,010 --> 00:44:44,600 uh, it was just funny, 834 00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:48,800 these simple little things that it took to really kind of cause him to be able 835 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:50,800 to make progress and move forward. 836 00:44:51,890 --> 00:44:55,680 So the patterns allow us to see where to start. 837 00:44:55,710 --> 00:44:57,320 That's really what the patterns are for. 838 00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:01,320 Mm-hmm. I love that. And, and especially in the leadership context, we, 839 00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,440 as we meet with different people and we want to be a good resource to them, 840 00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,840 just having this foundation of patterns of thinking. Okay. So what, what, 841 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:09,720 what pattern are you implementing your life? 842 00:45:09,720 --> 00:45:13,440 Where is it found in the scriptures? How's it working for you and, 843 00:45:13,460 --> 00:45:17,240 and sort of gives you a place sort of a workshop to go with the gospel rather 844 00:45:17,240 --> 00:45:20,960 than just these, you know, general, um, uh, 845 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:24,320 platitudes that maybe are less applicable or, or feel that way. Right? 846 00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,800 Yeah, exactly. And it's the words. Pattern, not, not checklist. 847 00:45:27,830 --> 00:45:28,720 Yeah. Yeah. 848 00:45:28,810 --> 00:45:33,640 So is there anything like anything you haven't said as far as avoiding turning a 849 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,560 pattern into a formula or anything else you would that we haven't touched on in 850 00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:38,560 that or that we cover it? 851 00:45:38,780 --> 00:45:43,040 You know, I think it's just fundamentally our, our believing that, 852 00:45:43,610 --> 00:45:48,560 um, you know, it's, it's like in, in with, uh, 853 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:52,200 qualifying for worthiness in a church setting, 854 00:45:52,970 --> 00:45:56,840 if someone makes a mistake or there's a, a, a MIS a problem in their life, 855 00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,760 a worthiness issue, they go to their priesthood leader. 856 00:46:00,210 --> 00:46:05,080 There's not gonna be a set timeframe for that person to have to wait 857 00:46:05,170 --> 00:46:09,240 to receive their blessings or move forward. It's very individualistic. 858 00:46:09,240 --> 00:46:11,960 It's really, it's unique to that situation. 859 00:46:12,740 --> 00:46:15,560 And I think patterns are also the same way in, in, 860 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:16,880 in terms of how they're expressed, 861 00:46:17,330 --> 00:46:20,120 meaning we don't know when the blessing will come. 862 00:46:20,810 --> 00:46:24,640 We know that the blessing will come, but we don't know when it will come. 863 00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:29,280 And so I think it's just fundamentally fundamentally believing these aren't, 864 00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:34,080 these aren't steps, uh, in a sequence they're principles, 865 00:46:34,290 --> 00:46:38,320 in a pattern and applying the principles is what really will bring the benefit. 866 00:46:38,510 --> 00:46:41,120 Yeah. I, I appreciate that. Any, um, 867 00:46:41,370 --> 00:46:44,160 as you read the scriptures and you identify different patterns, 868 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:49,040 is there anything you do, you know, practically that in order to retain and, 869 00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:53,040 and reference back to these patterns or just highlight 'em and or anything you 870 00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:53,800 do that that way. 871 00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,560 Yeah. Much, much more aware of 'em today. Yeah. As I study, 872 00:46:56,810 --> 00:46:59,640 there's some complex patterns where, you know, the, 873 00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:04,560 the scripture might say refer to nine things and then the blessing, right? 874 00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:07,040 Oh yeah. There's some simple patterns. Like, if you love me, 875 00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,520 keep the commandments super simple and you know, 876 00:47:09,530 --> 00:47:12,120 we don't wanna get too carried away patterns. Aren't everything. Right. 877 00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:16,200 There's lots of principles and ideas, but I think, um, 878 00:47:16,870 --> 00:47:18,120 I think you, you read, 879 00:47:18,150 --> 00:47:22,240 it's nice to read the scriptures differently as you search them for the fourth 880 00:47:22,240 --> 00:47:26,360 or fifth or 14th or 15th time. Yeah. Discovering patterns is a, 881 00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:27,520 is a fun way to do it. Yeah. 882 00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:29,560 And my mind goes to like, 883 00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,880 sometimes the pattern they'll use different verbiage or words for the same 884 00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:34,120 pattern, like, uh, 885 00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,640 clean hands in a pure heart or justification and sanctification, 886 00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,040 like that's the same pattern, but using different verbiage. 887 00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:40,920 And I actually have a, 888 00:47:41,150 --> 00:47:44,400 a tag in my gospel library of justification and sanctification. 889 00:47:44,500 --> 00:47:48,880 And it's fun to just read down those scriptures and see that so many different 890 00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:52,800 words are used for that same pattern. It's it's, it's interesting to find those. 891 00:47:52,850 --> 00:47:55,320 We, it was just doing the come follow me, you know, 892 00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,160 a couple weeks ago we were in Solomon in recently. 893 00:47:58,590 --> 00:48:02,240 I think it was Solomon first Solomon two 30, uh, 894 00:48:02,240 --> 00:48:07,200 Jehovah said he who honors God, or he who honors me? 895 00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:11,080 I will honor. And I recognize that as you know, a clear pattern. 896 00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:12,600 Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. 897 00:48:12,620 --> 00:48:16,920 And then just the fun of what else can I find that right. And diving in and, 898 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:17,760 and looking for more. 899 00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,600 For someone we're asking, how do I get more power on my priesthood blessings? 900 00:48:20,790 --> 00:48:25,320 Like when I give a blessing, I set someone apart as a leader or, uh, 901 00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:29,320 giving a blessing of comfort. How do I gain more power on that? 902 00:48:29,910 --> 00:48:30,620 Well, 903 00:48:30,620 --> 00:48:35,200 God will honor you and your words that you pronounce if 904 00:48:35,390 --> 00:48:39,960 you're honoring him. Hmm. So how do I show more honor to God? 905 00:48:40,190 --> 00:48:41,520 Yeah. And if I do, 906 00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:45,000 I'll feel that power come when he honors me and the words that I pronounce. 907 00:48:45,110 --> 00:48:48,560 Yeah. That's powerful. Anything that we we've missed that, uh, 908 00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:50,600 you wanna make sure we cover before we wrap up. 909 00:48:51,180 --> 00:48:55,840 You know, I think, uh, I just think again, to those who may feel like, 910 00:48:56,580 --> 00:48:58,360 gee, it's, it's not working for me, 911 00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:01,040 that things aren't happening the way that I thought they could, 912 00:49:01,810 --> 00:49:03,960 if that's happening for, for you, 913 00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:08,480 or you're working with someone as a leader where that's happening, um, 914 00:49:09,150 --> 00:49:12,520 people don't want to just be told it's gonna be okay. 915 00:49:13,110 --> 00:49:16,760 They'd like to understand it better. Like, why is this happening? 916 00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:18,640 And as we said before, the wise are difficult, 917 00:49:19,140 --> 00:49:21,560 but as we study scriptural examples, 918 00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:26,320 we can see where delay in blessings have come. That has taken time. And, uh, 919 00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:30,920 I mean, moron, I himself wandered for how long has it? 16 years by himself. 920 00:49:31,110 --> 00:49:35,520 Yeah. Uh, before he moved on, I mean, 921 00:49:35,750 --> 00:49:40,400 things can take time and I think educating and understanding how the Lord works 922 00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:41,680 is really beneficial to them. 923 00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:41,960 Yeah. 924 00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:45,040 I remember writing to my sister-in-law when she was a missionary and you know, 925 00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:49,600 we talk about Dr. Thomas, 1 21 with Joseph in the, in the Liberty jail. And, 926 00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:53,240 you know, there's these powerful moments of revelation, but you, 927 00:49:53,240 --> 00:49:55,080 I forget exactly how long he was in there, 928 00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:58,960 but most days it was just another day. There's no revelation. It was just, 929 00:49:59,380 --> 00:50:01,880 are we getting to eat today? And I'm tired of bending over, 930 00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:04,840 or I'm gonna go sit in that corner day. Like most days it was just nothing. 931 00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,800 Yeah. And to put that into perspective and realize, oh, okay, 932 00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:09,920 I'm just on an off day in the Liberty jail. 933 00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:13,400 And I'll get through this one and move on to the next one perspective that 934 00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:15,160 revelation will come. Right? Um, 935 00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:20,080 well this has been awesome and obviously published by desert book again, the, 936 00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:23,760 the titles, divine patterns seeking the blessings of heaven. Um, 937 00:50:23,970 --> 00:50:27,720 so all major church book stores, Amazon, anywhere else else you'd send 'em. 938 00:50:27,720 --> 00:50:30,120 They want to know more about yeah, that's right. All those places. Yeah. Okay, 939 00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:30,920 cool. Well, 940 00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:34,160 I'd love to find a reason or excuse to invite you back on the podcast. 941 00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:37,840 Looks like you've a, a well of knowledge that we, we barely, uh, 942 00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:39,000 tapped into here. 943 00:50:39,020 --> 00:50:43,760 The last question I have for you is just reflecting on your church leadership 944 00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,680 experience. Uh, the different callings you've had, 945 00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:50,400 how has being a leader helped you become a better follower of Jesus Christ? 946 00:50:50,490 --> 00:50:52,560 Oh my goodness. I'm so grateful. 947 00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:56,680 I've been asked to do some of those things because you're so much more focused 948 00:50:56,730 --> 00:51:01,480 on being worthy of, of the Lord's help. And, uh, 949 00:51:02,380 --> 00:51:05,720 I'm just so grateful that those opportunities have come because it's caused me 950 00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:09,760 to be a better example, better man, a better father, a better husband. 951 00:51:10,700 --> 00:51:13,680 And, uh, so if you're, if you're a leader right now, 952 00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:17,280 just enjoy the moment because it's a special blessing to represent the master 953 00:51:17,860 --> 00:51:19,680 and to be motivated in that way. 954 00:51:28,940 --> 00:51:31,710 That concludes this episode of the leading saints podcast. 955 00:51:31,780 --> 00:51:34,950 We'd love to hear from you about your questions or thoughts or comments. 956 00:51:34,950 --> 00:51:36,550 You can either leave a comment on the, uh, 957 00:51:36,550 --> 00:51:40,630 post related to this episode@leadingsaints.org or go to leading 958 00:51:40,630 --> 00:51:44,430 saints.org/contact and send us your perspective or questions. 959 00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:48,110 If there's other episodes or topics you'd like to hear on the leading saints 960 00:51:48,110 --> 00:51:48,320 podcast, 961 00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:52,310 go to leading saints.org/contact and share with us the information there. 962 00:51:52,730 --> 00:51:56,950 And we would love for you to share this with any individual you think this would 963 00:51:56,950 --> 00:51:57,430 apply to, 964 00:51:57,430 --> 00:52:00,990 especially maybe individuals in your board council or other leaders that you may 965 00:52:00,990 --> 00:52:04,190 know who would really appreciate the perspectives that we discussed. 966 00:52:05,670 --> 00:52:08,870 Remember to access the questioning saints library for 14 days, 967 00:52:09,030 --> 00:52:11,670 visit leading saints.org/fourteen. 968 00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:20,430 It came as a result of the position of leadership, 969 00:52:20,430 --> 00:52:24,150 which was imposed upon us by the God of heaven, 970 00:52:24,150 --> 00:52:28,550 who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus 971 00:52:28,660 --> 00:52:29,493 Christ. 972 00:52:29,770 --> 00:52:34,750 And when the declaration was made concerning the own and only true 973 00:52:34,750 --> 00:52:37,350 and living church upon the face of the earth, 974 00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:41,430 we were immediately put in a position of loneliness, 975 00:52:41,450 --> 00:52:46,390 the loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run 976 00:52:46,390 --> 00:52:47,223 away, 977 00:52:47,530 --> 00:52:51,510 and which we must face up with boldness and courage 978 00:52:52,130 --> 00:52:52,950 and ability.