1 00:00:03,310 --> 00:00:07,000 Okay. So you're here for some great church leadership content. 2 00:00:07,260 --> 00:00:08,800 The podcast is great, 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:13,600 but there's also another piece of content you need to be enjoying each week. 4 00:00:13,930 --> 00:00:17,400 It is the leading saints email newsletter. Now I get it. 5 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,880 Email newsletters feel so 2006, you know, 6 00:00:21,100 --> 00:00:23,400 but it isn't as old fashioned, as you might think. 7 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,440 It's actually one of the most popular pieces of content that leading saints 8 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:28,760 produces each week. 9 00:00:28,790 --> 00:00:33,280 I share a unique leadership thought that can only be found in the newsletter. 10 00:00:33,430 --> 00:00:36,560 I keep it short and sweet. 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So look for leading saints in your inbox, 19 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:07,200 by going to leading saints.org/fourteen, or click the link in the show notes. 20 00:01:07,700 --> 00:01:11,920 The following episode is a throwback episode when that was published previously 21 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:15,800 and was extremely popular to see the details of when this was originally 22 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,200 published. See the show notes, enjoy this throwback episode, 23 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:29,240 Everyone. Welcome back to the leading saints podcast. This is Kurt, 24 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:30,360 Frankum your host. 25 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:34,720 And can you imagine finding this podcast for the first time? 26 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,360 And this is your first episode that you're listening to, 27 00:01:37,460 --> 00:01:42,320 and that I never explain what leading saints is. So I'm gonna do that. 28 00:01:42,320 --> 00:01:46,760 Now. Leading saints is a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping latter day 29 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:48,200 saints be better prepared to lead. 30 00:01:48,260 --> 00:01:51,280 And one of the main ways we do that is through this podcast, 31 00:01:51,340 --> 00:01:55,240 the leading saints podcast, which you should subscribe to leave a review. 32 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:59,080 You know, all those things that podcasters ask you to do, you should do that. 33 00:01:59,140 --> 00:02:03,120 And we also have a website leading saints.org, great articles on there. 34 00:02:03,380 --> 00:02:06,520 And we also have a weekly newsletter that you can sign up that I've probably 35 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:11,160 talked about the beginning of this episode. And, uh, we do events, life events, 36 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,800 virtual events. That's what leading saints is. And you found this episode, 37 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,440 we're grateful that you're here and we have a remarkable conversation to share 38 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,080 with you today. I talk with Jody Moore. 39 00:02:21,390 --> 00:02:26,360 Jody Moore is a life coach based out of Spokane Washington. She is a phenomenal, 40 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,080 just a great perspective on things, 41 00:02:28,350 --> 00:02:32,240 really helpful in personal development thought management. 42 00:02:32,650 --> 00:02:34,720 So check her out@jodimoore.com, 43 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:39,080 but I'd listened to her podcast pretty faithfully. And a few months ago, 44 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:42,040 she had this podcast called expectation pain. 45 00:02:42,180 --> 00:02:45,560 And I talked about a little more in this conversation, but when I heard this, 46 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,440 I thought, oh man, this is so needed. 47 00:02:48,790 --> 00:02:53,480 This concept that understanding of this concept is so needed in the context of, 48 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,760 of leadership, because I get the emails and bless your heart. 49 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:00,840 You you're welcome to send me these emails when sometimes you're deeply 50 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:04,160 disappointed in the leadership that you're experiencing, right? The, 51 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:07,240 the leaders in maybe your ward or stake. And it's just frustrating. 52 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,040 And you see that they could fix so many problems so easily, 53 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,320 if they would just do you know, a, B or C, 54 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:16,120 and it's so easy to disengage or give up or think, why am I even doing this? 55 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:17,840 Why am I serving on the word council? 56 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:22,640 Why am I trying to help this ward in some way when I just get shut down 57 00:03:22,640 --> 00:03:26,840 or, or leadership is so frustrating. So I wanted to, to, 58 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,680 to talk to Jody about this concept of expectation pain, 59 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,360 when we have certain expectations for our leaders and they don't live up to 60 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:34,840 them, what do we do in that scenario? 61 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:39,640 How can we make a ward that just feels flat or the award that feels 62 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,320 like it's on the wrong track and well, what are we supposed to do with that? 63 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,960 So we talk about it. You're gonna love it. Here's my interview with Jodi Moore 64 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,680 today, I have the opportunity to sit down through the powers of zoom, 65 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,560 which we do these days with Jody Moore. How are you Jody? 66 00:04:15,860 --> 00:04:17,560 I'm great. Thank you. How are you? 67 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:18,800 Wonderful. I mean, 68 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:23,000 I always appreciate the day when I get to talk with Jody and the famous person 69 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,040 who doesn't feel so famous, you're much like me. 70 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:27,280 My daughter asked me the other day, dad, are you famous? 71 00:04:27,580 --> 00:04:29,120 And do your kids ever ask you that? 72 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,840 Yeah. I tell them I'm pretend famous. Pretend. 73 00:04:31,840 --> 00:04:31,960 Yes. 74 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,960 Like it desert bookstores. I'm famous, but otherwise, no. 75 00:04:36,310 --> 00:04:41,240 It's true. So for people who may not know of your well-known ness, 76 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,400 that's probably a better way to say it, but, uh, who are you? And, and, uh, 77 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:45,233 what is it you do? 78 00:04:45,420 --> 00:04:49,080 I'm just a stay at home mom who happened to, uh, 79 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,640 learn about some tools six or seven years ago. That changed my life. 80 00:04:53,740 --> 00:04:55,440 I'm a lifelong member of the church, 81 00:04:55,700 --> 00:05:00,560 but I ended up going through coach training and became ultimately 82 00:05:00,590 --> 00:05:02,000 a master certified life coach. 83 00:05:02,500 --> 00:05:07,480 And all I could see as I learned the tools of coaching was the parallels 84 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:08,840 to the gospel of Jesus Christ. 85 00:05:08,940 --> 00:05:13,040 And so those are the two things that have impacted my life the most 86 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:13,770 significantly. 87 00:05:13,770 --> 00:05:18,720 So today I work with other like-minded individuals who want to improve their 88 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:20,880 mental and emotional health and achieve goals. 89 00:05:21,140 --> 00:05:24,120 And most people know me from my podcast. So. 90 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,720 That's right. , that's where most people know me, which yeah. 91 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,360 And it is funny as you know, talking about pretend famous. 92 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,840 Sometimes I'll meet somebody and they'll be like, is this weird for you? Like, 93 00:05:32,840 --> 00:05:35,440 I, I feel like I know you and I think, no, it's not weird for me. 94 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:36,960 I think it's just weird for you. Yeah. 95 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:37,793 That's right. 96 00:05:37,870 --> 00:05:39,240 You're just a man in my life. 97 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,240 Although I can relate because I've met people who I've been listening to and I 98 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:45,680 think this is weird, right? Yeah. It's true. It's. 99 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:46,480 True. Yeah. So, 100 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:50,880 and that you've recently been mentioning on your podcast about you're sort of 101 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:55,520 taking an angle or defining that your approach as far as faith based coaching 102 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:57,720 and how, how do you articulate that? 103 00:05:57,830 --> 00:06:00,000 Yeah, well, um, 104 00:06:00,430 --> 00:06:03,880 I always have considered myself to be a faith-based coach, 105 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:08,200 but I just kind of labeled it that as I've started mentoring other coaches 106 00:06:08,540 --> 00:06:11,040 who want to grow their, um, 107 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:16,040 skills and their businesses in that I love helping 108 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,240 people connect the dots. Like I said, 109 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:22,360 between just all the tools that I have of how to understand what you're thinking 110 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,280 and feeling and creating and all the doctrine. 111 00:06:25,280 --> 00:06:28,680 Sometimes I get people who say to me, well, I'm just discouraged. 112 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:30,800 Why didn't I learn this at church? Why haven't I, 113 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:35,160 why isn't this in the scriptures to which I say, oh, it is in the scriptures. 114 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,760 And we did learn it at church. It was just with different words. 115 00:06:38,420 --> 00:06:42,920 And so I love helping people connect the dots between whatever they believe, 116 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:44,840 whatever their faith is and, 117 00:06:45,140 --> 00:06:50,040 and just the power of understanding human behavior and the human brain and 118 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,800 emotions. So that's what faith-based coaching kind of means. Yeah. 119 00:06:53,900 --> 00:06:57,240 And, and I love that term and, and what you do and, and how you teach people. 120 00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:58,080 Cause obviously, you know, 121 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,320 you've been through certain certification programs to learn how to effectively 122 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:02,960 coach, but I thought, you know, 123 00:07:03,050 --> 00:07:07,160 it would be so helpful for leaders to better understand maybe some basic 124 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,120 principles of how to coach. Right. Cause you know, we always, 125 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,960 nobody's ever claims that we're a therapist and neither do you ever claim that 126 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,960 you're a therapist, but there's a lot of value in having a coach. 127 00:07:16,140 --> 00:07:20,400 And sometimes that coach you look towards is your Bishop or your release society 128 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:24,000 president, or a youth leader, whatever it is. And sometimes , 129 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,840 and I've been this Bishop, they come in, they say, okay, you just sit back, 130 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,560 I'll tell you what you need to do in life. And this will fix it. Right. 131 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:31,560 But that's not helpful for coach to do. Right. 132 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:33,800 Right. That's exactly right. I couldn't agree more. 133 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,240 I think if I'm in a leadership position at church, 134 00:07:36,350 --> 00:07:39,280 I would want these tools just to a, not, 135 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,360 not that they have to go through extensive coach training, but just right. 136 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,880 Understanding a little bit would go a long way. So. 137 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:49,160 Yeah. So anyways, I'm thinking of more ways to exploit your genius job. Thank. 138 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:49,970 You. I love it. 139 00:07:49,970 --> 00:07:53,240 Do it. You can tell me no, but I, I would love to create maybe a, 140 00:07:53,390 --> 00:07:56,560 a simple training or something where you could speak to leaders saying, okay, 141 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,040 if you're gonna coach somebody, here's some things to consider. Right. For. 142 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,560 Sure we can do that. Let's wor let's let's partner on that. Kurt. 143 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,160 Perfect. Love it. Love it. All right. So the reason, you know, 144 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:07,640 I'm a avid listener of your podcast. 145 00:08:08,140 --> 00:08:12,280 And I many times I listen to episodes and I think, oh man, this is a great one. 146 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,360 I'm definitely sharing it on social media. Maybe I'll listen to it again. 147 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:19,360 And then every once in a while you hit on a topic that I think not only is this 148 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:19,880 phenomenal, 149 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:24,880 but I've got to get Jody on my podcast to talk about this concept and that 150 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:28,960 episode, which was actually a while ago. Uh, not like I'm a few months ago, 151 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,360 but expectation pain. Is that how you titled it? 152 00:08:31,380 --> 00:08:32,960 Yes. It's a good one. 153 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,440 So it's a phenomenal one because this is, these are the emails I get Jody, 154 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,160 and this is the problem that you need to fix today. 155 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:39,600 okay. Tell me, let. 156 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:39,760 Do it. Or, 157 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:44,160 or help me give some resources and substance to is I give this email and it's 158 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:46,720 from somebody somewhere in the world and they say, dear Kurt, 159 00:08:46,780 --> 00:08:51,640 you will not believe the train wreck that I have as a Bishop or my relief 160 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:56,400 society present is so ridiculous that I don't even see how I can even show up to 161 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,640 church on, on Sunday, you know, when we would do that thing. And, and in fact, 162 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,720 I feel justified in not going to church because this is awful. 163 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,320 And some of these emails they'll go to the point saying, 164 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:09,520 I think abuse is happening in my ward from my Le, like it's gone to that point. 165 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,760 Right. And a lot of the time, my heart breaks, 166 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,640 because I've been that leader who probably people have thought you're kind of a 167 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,600 train wreck. And the best thing about leadership for me, 168 00:09:19,790 --> 00:09:24,400 like in hindsight is that it's helped me be a more empathetic member because I'm 169 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:26,440 like, ah, yeah, I remember being that Bishop, 170 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:28,480 you don't know what you're doing and neither did I, but Hey, 171 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,560 we're here to help you. Right. That empathy is just more readily available. 172 00:09:32,060 --> 00:09:34,640 But other times people, you know, 173 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,840 and circum circumstances are different that you turn into the member who just 174 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:39,800 folds his arms in the back row and says, well, 175 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:41,480 we're just gonna get through these five years. 176 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:44,240 And hopefully the next guy does it. Right. Right. 177 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:48,840 So how would you start to explain this expectation pain? As far as like, 178 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:50,640 we have this expectation for a leader, 179 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,480 like a Bishop is supposed to be a really great guy. 180 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:56,960 Who's always willing to help and is there when I need him. So, 181 00:09:57,140 --> 00:10:00,480 but then he is not. So maybe you you're better articulating this. 182 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:04,280 Stuff. All right. Well, before I explain that, let me just mention that. 183 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:08,560 I think it's so fascinating that you're getting that email because your work and 184 00:10:08,560 --> 00:10:11,760 your podcast and everything is meant to speak to leaders, 185 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:15,440 which we all are leaders in some form or another. Right? Sure. But yeah. 186 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:20,320 And I just wanna point out the fascinating thing that we all do as human beings, 187 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,080 which is we hear somebody giving advice or counsel 188 00:10:25,140 --> 00:10:30,000 and our first thought is this would be so helpful for that 189 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:30,840 guy. . 190 00:10:31,100 --> 00:10:34,240 And Jody, you probably get this too. I literally get people that, 191 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:38,280 that confess that I have put my Bishop's email on your newsletter. Yeah. 192 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,680 You know, and I'm like, well, you probably shouldn't do that, but Hey, thanks. 193 00:10:40,750 --> 00:10:43,760 Yeah. I get that too. Where they're like, do you have an episode? 194 00:10:43,790 --> 00:10:47,240 I could send them that covers this thing or, oh yes. With, 195 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,280 for me it's with their kids. Right. Or with their spouse or whatever. 196 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,800 Do you have an episode on this thing? Because I love what you're teaching. 197 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:56,560 I wish my husband understood it. I wish my child, I wish my, you know, 198 00:10:56,730 --> 00:10:59,480 my release study president, my Bishop understood this. 199 00:10:59,890 --> 00:11:02,960 So I think I just wanna acknowledge that it's normal. 200 00:11:03,150 --> 00:11:06,200 I find myself doing it too. When I'm listening, I'm thinking, oh, 201 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,640 I should teach this to my clients. I should teach this to other people. 202 00:11:09,860 --> 00:11:13,840 And so I think it, there's a lot of power that comes from pausing. 203 00:11:13,900 --> 00:11:16,640 And just noticing that we're doing that and asking, wait, 204 00:11:16,790 --> 00:11:20,880 what if I just listen to this and think about how it applies to me first and 205 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:24,960 foremost. yeah. And not how I wish that other guy were hearing it. 206 00:11:25,150 --> 00:11:28,160 That's where we get traction. We only have control over us. 207 00:11:28,380 --> 00:11:30,600 But in answer to your question, 208 00:11:31,260 --> 00:11:35,680 one of the concepts I teach is that as human beings, 209 00:11:35,690 --> 00:11:40,680 we have this idea of how people should be, whether it be again, 210 00:11:40,680 --> 00:11:43,400 a spouse, a Bishop, a child, 211 00:11:43,860 --> 00:11:46,480 any of these roles that people play in our lives. 212 00:11:46,970 --> 00:11:49,160 We have an idea of what it should look like. 213 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:54,040 And that idea comes from maybe things that we learned growing up stories. 214 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:58,480 We've heard the media again, books and podcasts that we consume. 215 00:11:59,010 --> 00:12:03,960 We create this picture of what is the right way to be in that role. 216 00:12:04,140 --> 00:12:08,760 And the problem with that is that everybody has their own version of what that 217 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:13,520 is. Mm-hmm . And when people don't fulfill our expectation, 218 00:12:13,750 --> 00:12:17,920 then we feel some kind of negative emotion, disappointment, 219 00:12:18,700 --> 00:12:21,480 frustration, et cetera. Um, 220 00:12:21,500 --> 00:12:24,160 the problem isn't that the person is doing it wrong. 221 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:27,720 The problem is our expectation of what it should look like. 222 00:12:28,540 --> 00:12:31,480 And expectations. I heard it said recently, 223 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,640 expectations are just predetermined disappointment. 224 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:37,040 pre premeditated. 225 00:12:37,070 --> 00:12:41,920 I think they said premeditated disappointment because people in general are not 226 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:46,360 good at meeting our expectations. And, uh, it's one thing, you know, 227 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,960 if you're in a leadership position to have expectations of people that are 228 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:51,920 accountable to you, that's not what we're talking about here. 229 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:56,640 We're talking about the picture. And sometimes we call it a manual, right? 230 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:01,400 Like I have a manual for, um, my car. It tells me how the car should operate. 231 00:13:01,460 --> 00:13:05,000 And if something isn't working correctly, take it in the shop and say, 232 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,840 this car needs to be fixed. Um, but with people, 233 00:13:08,890 --> 00:13:12,160 we create these manuals in our mind, which is how we say, wait a second, 234 00:13:12,490 --> 00:13:16,800 my Bishop is not working correctly. My, my release society president is broken. 235 00:13:17,420 --> 00:13:21,920 And then we suffer at the effect of that. And, uh, 236 00:13:21,950 --> 00:13:22,460 yeah. 237 00:13:22,460 --> 00:13:25,320 And, and even that manual concept is magnified. 238 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,880 When we literally have a handbook that is referred to as a manual. Yes. 239 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,400 The manual says, yeah, like, Bishop, let me show you. 240 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,960 I actually have a physical manual here and you're doing it wrong, right? Yes. 241 00:13:34,970 --> 00:13:38,960 Or we like you talk about, we sort of, whether we've been a Bishop before and, 242 00:13:39,100 --> 00:13:43,080 and I always feel bad for when I move into award and you know, 243 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,160 I connect with the Bishop and whatever, and I just always feel bad. Like, oh, 244 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:47,760 no, like he's looking at me. 245 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:51,320 Like the guy that talks about church leadership is moving into my ward. 246 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:53,920 Like this is not going to go well, you know, anyways, 247 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,880 I'm always clear with them. I'm not here, like with a clipboard, you know, 248 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,600 critiquing everything you're doing. But nonetheless, we do that, 249 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:01,200 especially if we've been the Bishop before, 250 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,440 or we've been a release society president. And we think, no, I did it this way. 251 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,800 And it was really effective if they only knew that my way was effective, 252 00:14:08,190 --> 00:14:12,560 they would, that, you know, success would, would be an abundance here and, 253 00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:15,080 and this would go much better. Right. But, and so we, 254 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:19,760 we unintentionally write our manual either because we have an idea of how we 255 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,600 would do it, or we have done it before. And it worked out pretty well. 256 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,520 And so we think we have the manual that will solve all problems. 257 00:14:25,660 --> 00:14:29,960 Yes. And I do wanna say that there are things to your point, 258 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:34,200 if I have somebody that's abusive or maybe they're violating a policy, 259 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:35,840 that's in the church handbook. 260 00:14:36,300 --> 00:14:41,200 I'm not saying that people don't do things, quote, unquote, wrong, right. 261 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:45,120 In a way that we would all or many of us would want to define as wrong. 262 00:14:45,790 --> 00:14:50,560 What I'm saying is that we lose all of our own authority over 263 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:55,440 ourselves when we blame their misbehavior for our emotions. 264 00:14:56,210 --> 00:14:59,800 So kind of the way I like to think about it is okay, 265 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:02,080 maybe that Bishop is doing it wrong. 266 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,080 Maybe they're not following the policies the way it's laid out in the manual. 267 00:15:05,380 --> 00:15:09,840 But if my thought is that he should be doing it right. 268 00:15:10,030 --> 00:15:14,200 That's where I'm creating a problem. So I can get to compassion. 269 00:15:14,460 --> 00:15:18,680 For example, I might think, okay, he's doing it wrong, but he means, well, 270 00:15:19,050 --> 00:15:23,760 or he's doing it wrong. And he just doesn't know any better. He, you know, 271 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,800 we place our leaders on these pedestals that I don't think they wanna be on 272 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:28,590 . 273 00:15:28,590 --> 00:15:30,080 It's a whole nother topic. Right? 274 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:34,640 Yeah. So to think that, that he should be doing it right. He should be better. 275 00:15:34,790 --> 00:15:38,360 It's a, like you said, it's a development process for everybody involved. 276 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,840 And so sometimes you can keep the thought that they're doing it wrong, 277 00:15:41,940 --> 00:15:45,600 but you can find peace and compassion around. Like, of course he is, 278 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:49,880 he's a human being. Sometimes he's gonna mess it up. The question again, 279 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:54,120 we wanna redirect to is who do I want to be? How do I want to feel? 280 00:15:54,540 --> 00:15:58,520 And that's where you have, you know, all of your power. 281 00:15:59,220 --> 00:16:04,000 And one of the things I've been really exploring lately is this idea that the 282 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:08,480 atonement has two parts. There's the saving grace of the atonement, 283 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:13,520 right? Where we, we repent for sins in Christone for us, so we can be forgiven, 284 00:16:13,540 --> 00:16:17,360 but then there's the strengthening and enabling power of the atonement. 285 00:16:18,020 --> 00:16:22,640 And that's the part that I think we don't give enough attention to at times that 286 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,920 might be the part where I need to, maybe I haven't done anything wrong. 287 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:28,520 Maybe my church leader is just not stepping up, 288 00:16:28,580 --> 00:16:33,400 but I can choose what I'm gonna do. Am I gonna be mad and resentful and blame? 289 00:16:33,490 --> 00:16:38,200 Or am I gonna access that strengthening power of the atonement to be the person 290 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,440 I wanna be and get what I need for myself spiritually. 291 00:16:41,470 --> 00:16:44,280 Yeah. Yeah. And so it sounds like we really have two options. 292 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:47,920 When we face this dynamic, we can either go towards compassion and empathy. 293 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:48,160 You know, 294 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:51,160 I call it upward empathy when we sort of always wait for the Bishop to give us 295 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,480 empathy, or, but in reality, we have a lot of empathy to give that way. 296 00:16:54,770 --> 00:16:58,200 Or we can go towards defining what, what this means, 297 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,760 where we experienced that premeditated disappointment, uh, 298 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:03,800 because we had an expectation we're disappointed. 299 00:17:04,020 --> 00:17:07,240 And then we start defining that. Well, the Bishop's doing it wrong, 300 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,760 so this isn't gonna be a good word. And this isn't a good word. In fact, 301 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:14,120 my youth, they're probably not gonna have a good experience. And so, you know, 302 00:17:14,120 --> 00:17:16,640 we need to figure this out. Maybe we should move. You know, like it, 303 00:17:16,690 --> 00:17:20,560 it sort of balloons into these additional issues that were never there, 304 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:22,720 but we've created them ourselves. And you know, 305 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,600 you talk about this self-inflicting pain concept. Like that pain has only come. 306 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:27,880 It did not come from your Bishop. 307 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,440 It did not come from his actions or the leader's actions for doing it wrong. 308 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,960 You created that pain that is making your time in that ward just miserable. 309 00:17:36,070 --> 00:17:36,760 That's right. 310 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:40,600 And what's powerful to see is that you are the one experiencing the pain. 311 00:17:40,740 --> 00:17:44,440 The Bishop may or may not experience pain about his behavior. 312 00:17:44,930 --> 00:17:49,040 So we punish ourselves with it and it doesn't change them. 313 00:17:49,380 --> 00:17:52,800 Unfortunately, I'm always trying to point this out to my clients. 314 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,160 So you being irritated and resentful with your Bishop, 315 00:17:56,650 --> 00:18:01,040 is that getting him to behave more the way you want is of course it's not right. 316 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,720 Yeah. And so our brain stick gets useful and important though, to hold onto. 317 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,080 And I like to show myself this isn't useful or important. 318 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:11,240 It's only punishing me. I'm not gonna suffer for someone else's bad behavior. 319 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,040 the, the other thing I just wanna point out here, 320 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,440 as you give that example, Kurt is we do this thing. 321 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:17,960 I call mirroring one another. 322 00:18:18,250 --> 00:18:23,040 So if I think that my Bishop is doing it wrong, whatever it is, 323 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,960 right. His calling, being the Bishop, he's doing it wrong. 324 00:18:26,310 --> 00:18:29,800 Then I am inevitably, unless I choose consciously, 325 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,800 otherwise I'm gonna start doing it wrong. In other words, 326 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:37,000 being the kind of ward member that I probably wanna be, 327 00:18:37,260 --> 00:18:39,720 I'm probably doing it wrong. I'm not sustaining my Bishop. 328 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,520 I'm not supporting him. Maybe I'm gossiping about him. Maybe I'm. 329 00:18:42,710 --> 00:18:44,560 Saying no to callings, right? Saying. 330 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:45,070 No to calling. 331 00:18:45,070 --> 00:18:46,440 You're, you're just disengaged. 332 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,040 I'm just gonna disengage from the ward and get through this. 333 00:18:49,300 --> 00:18:50,090 Yes. 334 00:18:50,090 --> 00:18:54,440 So that's what feels terrible to us is us not living into 335 00:18:54,940 --> 00:18:58,680 the kind of being that we all at our core want to be, which is like, 336 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:00,200 God we're created in his image. 337 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,960 So when we are loving and compassionate and all the things that we believe God 338 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:05,600 is, that's when we feel the best. 339 00:19:05,770 --> 00:19:08,640 So we're not feeling bad because the Bishop's doing it wrong. 340 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,080 We're feeling bad because we're doing it wrong. 341 00:19:11,500 --> 00:19:16,160 And that's important to know that while mirroring is our default 342 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,280 meaning, that's what we'll naturally do. If we're not paying attention, 343 00:19:19,350 --> 00:19:21,480 like if somebody comes along and they're really nice, 344 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:22,840 they tell me how much they love me. 345 00:19:23,100 --> 00:19:26,960 I'm probably gonna be really nice and love them right back. 346 00:19:27,030 --> 00:19:28,280 It's just our default. 347 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:32,440 If somebody comes at me and they're accusing me or they're criticizing me, 348 00:19:32,780 --> 00:19:36,920 I'm gonna wanna get defensive and start criticizing them. It's just our default. 349 00:19:36,940 --> 00:19:40,120 But we can break that cycle by thinking, okay, 350 00:19:40,310 --> 00:19:43,400 this person is showing up this way, but I don't wanna feel that way. 351 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,280 I don't wanna behave that way. So I'm gonna choose something different. 352 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:50,840 It just requires a conscious choice rather than your unconscious default 353 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:51,560 behavior. 354 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:52,010 Yeah. 355 00:19:52,010 --> 00:19:55,640 Is there anything you'd add as far as like how we would recognize that that's 356 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:57,480 happening inside of us? Like maybe in, you know, 357 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:01,320 I know you coached in the context of couples and relationships a lot. And so, 358 00:20:01,710 --> 00:20:02,520 I mean, does the, 359 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:07,200 does the spouse generally just know that they're dissatisfied with this? Like, 360 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,400 like when can they know when they're defaulting to some of these, 361 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,240 these negative thoughts and, and, and they're, they're just. 362 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,520 Multiplying. Um, we see it all the time, like you said, in my coaching and, 363 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,240 and we like to have fun with it. We, 364 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:23,000 we like to kind of just be amused with ourselves when we notice it. 365 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,920 So it comes and answer to your question from examining yourself. 366 00:20:27,020 --> 00:20:29,680 Our brains are really aware of what's happening outside of us, 367 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,880 what other people are doing or anything going on outside of us. 368 00:20:32,900 --> 00:20:35,680 But when you stop and say, wait a second, what am I doing? 369 00:20:35,710 --> 00:20:37,920 That might be similar to what they're doing, 370 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,600 whether it be your actions or your thoughts or your emotions, 371 00:20:41,820 --> 00:20:44,800 any of those things can be ways that we're mirroring. 372 00:20:44,890 --> 00:20:47,240 So if a client says to me, me, 373 00:20:47,490 --> 00:20:51,640 my husband is just so negative and she'll start telling me about how he 374 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:52,600 complains about this. 375 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:56,160 And he hates his job and he's critical of the kids and on and on and on. 376 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,680 And I'll say, let's just notice for a minute, 377 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:03,160 how negative you are about your negative husband. so, yeah. 378 00:21:03,210 --> 00:21:05,120 So when you stop and ask yourself, okay, 379 00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:09,600 in what way am I doing the very thing that I'm judging this person 380 00:21:09,780 --> 00:21:13,800 for? And you have to be open-minded, it's not again, 381 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:18,280 natural for us to want to find that fault in ourselves, but when you can, 382 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,920 that's, when I think you access that power of, oh, 383 00:21:22,030 --> 00:21:26,600 that's all this going on here is I'm becoming that very thing I'm judging them 384 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,320 for. So it, it comes from looking at yourself. 385 00:21:29,350 --> 00:21:32,120 Yeah. Yeah. Know, in my personal experience, you know, 386 00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:35,720 sometimes I've caught myself being, thinking like, even this past Sunday, 387 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,480 you know, we're doing Sunday school via zoom. You know, what, why do I, 388 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,760 why should I even open zoom? I mean, this is gonna be an awful lesson. Why, 389 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,080 I mean, what's the point, you know, that they, 390 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,840 they can barely teach a lesson in person, let alone on zoom. Like, 391 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,680 why am I doing this? Right. And that, and that caused me, whoa, wait a minute. 392 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,120 Where's that coming from? Right. And then it gives me time to pause and say, 393 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:54,640 actually they're doing their best. 394 00:21:54,700 --> 00:21:58,240 And I'm gonna have a lot of compassion and for what they're doing and they have 395 00:21:58,240 --> 00:21:59,160 a lot. And then, you know, 396 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,200 maybe I could speak up a little bit and that would really help them through, 397 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,960 through this lesson rather than saying, well, I'm just gonna mute my mic, 398 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:10,000 mute my camera and just be a floating name in the corner. And that's it. 399 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:10,960 We'll get through it. Right. 400 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,760 Yes, exactly. And to piggyback off that example, 401 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:19,200 sometimes then we want to be judgemental of ourselves now. Right? 402 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,200 Like I shouldn't have such a bad attitude. I shouldn't be this way. 403 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,600 I should be more attentive and ready to go for my lesson. 404 00:22:25,100 --> 00:22:26,760 And so what I tell people is, listen, 405 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,120 let's just be compassionate and curious about yourself first, 406 00:22:30,690 --> 00:22:34,640 if you can say, yes, I do some things really well. 407 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,640 Sometimes I show up with a great attitude and sometimes I have a terrible 408 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,080 attitude and sometimes I drop the ball. Um, 409 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,360 kind of like you just did with that story about yourself. Yeah. 410 00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:45,240 When you can examine, 411 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:50,080 you can kind of find the humor in it and still note that it's not you at 412 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:50,913 your best, but, 413 00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:54,320 but we don't have to get all judgemental about it when you can do that for you, 414 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,520 then it becomes much easier to do that for other people. Yeah. 415 00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:58,480 It goes both ways. 416 00:22:58,710 --> 00:23:01,840 It's and, and just being, and, and I think it comes with practice, right. 417 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,720 The more you're trying to be, self-aware the more, you know, 418 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:05,800 and just those feelings, 419 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,880 like maybe you're going to award activity and you just don't wanna go where 420 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:10,680 you're just gonna think it's be ridiculous. Like, whoa, 421 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:14,240 where did that come from? And maybe there's some, there's some judgment, 422 00:23:14,290 --> 00:23:18,200 there's some friction between you and how you perceive how the leader is doing. 423 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,880 Maybe they aren't following your manual. And so to really unwind that and then, 424 00:23:22,010 --> 00:23:22,360 uh, 425 00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:25,080 and take a deep breath and approach it with a lot of compassion goes a long way. 426 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:26,320 Yeah. So for sure. 427 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,240 Anything else you'd add, as far as this concept of, you know, 428 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:33,080 you use this example in the episode, I referenced earlier that sometimes in our, 429 00:23:33,490 --> 00:23:35,320 uh, in our relationships with our spouse, 430 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,760 we wanna go to the family proclamation and say, Hey, look, 431 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,200 this is says right here, that this is the way what a husband should do, 432 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,280 or this is what a wife should do. So, and you are obviously not doing it. 433 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:50,480 Anything else as far as how we sometimes look for evidence in bad leadership. 434 00:23:50,910 --> 00:23:51,430 Yeah. 435 00:23:51,430 --> 00:23:56,240 I personally think this is a tool that the adversary is really good at right 436 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,880 now is maybe has always been, but I've noticed it lately, 437 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:03,840 which is that he helps us take the gospel, 438 00:24:04,580 --> 00:24:07,880 the council and advice we're given from prophets and leaders, 439 00:24:08,150 --> 00:24:12,400 even the scriptures and says, see, that's a good reason. 440 00:24:12,830 --> 00:24:15,760 Like that would make a nice page in your manual, right. 441 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,840 About how your husband should be, is it says right here, husband, 442 00:24:18,900 --> 00:24:20,920 the husband should provide for the family. 443 00:24:20,930 --> 00:24:24,280 Or I can't remember the exact verbiage, but something along those lines. Right. 444 00:24:24,820 --> 00:24:29,120 And, uh, I coach a lot of women who say, my husband isn't providing for us. 445 00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:31,280 He hasn't, he can't keep a job or he, 446 00:24:31,340 --> 00:24:33,440 for whatever reason is not providing for us. 447 00:24:34,090 --> 00:24:36,960 So clearly I have a good reason to resent him. 448 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,520 I have a good reason to be judgemental or frustrated or irritated with him. 449 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,600 It says right here in the proclamation that that's what a husband should do. 450 00:24:43,980 --> 00:24:45,960 And I think Satan's like, Hey, 451 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,360 let's use that to drive a wedge in your marriage and in your family. 452 00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:53,680 And I am really certain that our leaders did not sit down. 453 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:55,400 Our prophet did not sit down and say, 454 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,280 let's write a document that will give wives a reason to resent their husbands 455 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,360 and husbands a reason to judge their wives. 456 00:25:01,360 --> 00:25:05,640 Like there was never the intention of it. So that is Satan's tool. 457 00:25:05,940 --> 00:25:08,320 And we just, again, have to be onto ourselves. 458 00:25:08,390 --> 00:25:11,520 It's kind of like we were talking about in the beginning of the letters that 459 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:12,840 you're getting, the emails that you're getting, 460 00:25:13,310 --> 00:25:18,200 I need to read the proclamation in terms of how does this help me be more of 461 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,480 who I want to be, but how my husband shows up, honestly, 462 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,720 whether he's fulfilling his duty as a priesthood holder. 463 00:25:27,100 --> 00:25:31,600 And what have you is sort of none of my business, ultimately, I mean, 464 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:36,320 it is obviously we're raising a family together, but his spiritual development, 465 00:25:36,590 --> 00:25:40,200 what the areas where he's excelling in the areas where maybe he's not, 466 00:25:40,290 --> 00:25:44,640 is really not mind to manage in the end. And so, yeah. 467 00:25:44,790 --> 00:25:48,240 I've often had this start of, you know, think back when I, uh, 468 00:25:48,580 --> 00:25:52,640 was in Bishop Rickson, we would be planning the sacrament meeting speakers, 469 00:25:52,700 --> 00:25:57,000 and sometimes we'd come in a name and you just knew if we let that person stand 470 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,080 up, they're just not well articulated. They, they just, 471 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,960 they probably won't do a good job. Maybe we'll give them a place elsewhere, 472 00:26:03,060 --> 00:26:06,120 but I'd often remind myself what if we help this individual. 473 00:26:06,370 --> 00:26:10,880 So that speaking in SAC meeting gave them such confidence, even if it was just, 474 00:26:10,950 --> 00:26:14,520 I mean, forget the meeting content. We just dismissed that. Like, 475 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:15,440 it's just not gonna go well, 476 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,600 but that person walks away feeling like I spoke in SAC meeting. Right. 477 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,720 Like I did it, I did something I thought I couldn't do. 478 00:26:21,860 --> 00:26:26,040 And so it oftentimes encouraged me to maybe to consider some of those unknown 479 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,520 names or in, in calling sometimes we think, well, 480 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,120 we can't call that person as the elders, corn president, 481 00:26:31,120 --> 00:26:33,360 cuz he's a bit off his rocker. Yeah. 482 00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:37,320 But what if we did and what if we just offer some extra support to help them. 483 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,280 Right. And I use the examples going back to, 484 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:43,560 let's say you do just have that dumpster fire Bishop. That is just, 485 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,560 it seems like anything he touches, he breaks, 486 00:26:45,700 --> 00:26:49,240 but what if nothing happened in the ward for five years, 487 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,800 other than that one individual became sanctified through his calling. 488 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,760 Like if, if God came down and said, listen, the youth program's gonna be, 489 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,640 you know, off track, everything's gonna be going not well, 490 00:27:00,820 --> 00:27:04,600 are you willing to say, you know what, but that the Bishop's soul is worth it. 491 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,960 So I'm gonna hang with him. I'm gonna encourage him. 492 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:08,080 We're gonna get through this. And yeah, 493 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,120 maybe my son doesn't have this remarkable youth experience, 494 00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:14,880 but the Bishop becomes a more sanctified person. Now I get that, you know, 495 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,880 some people be like, no, like they just need to pick a new Bishop, 496 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,560 you know that. But a lot of times maybe he needs a year, maybe six months, 497 00:27:21,610 --> 00:27:25,080 we just are helping him develop as an individual. And that's okay. 498 00:27:25,270 --> 00:27:28,800 I love that. It, it reminds me what David Ooma case said a long time ago, 499 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,560 which is that the purpose of the gospel is to make bad man. 500 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:36,120 Good and good men better. Yeah. And to change human nature. And to your point, 501 00:27:36,120 --> 00:27:37,240 I can't think of a, 502 00:27:37,530 --> 00:27:41,960 an experience that would probably be more challenging and refining than serving 503 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,080 as a Bishop in that it, it may be for him. I also, 504 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,560 one of the things that really helps me, I heard, um, Susan Easton, 505 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:54,440 black speak at a, a women's conference in my steak in California years ago. 506 00:27:55,060 --> 00:27:59,000 And this changed everything for me. She said, when I go to church, 507 00:27:59,790 --> 00:28:04,520 I go to take the sacrament, that parts for me, but everything else, 508 00:28:04,790 --> 00:28:09,320 I go there thinking, what am I bringing? What can I give to other people? 509 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,360 Hmm. And that really helped me, you know, 510 00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:16,360 when I'm in those words where I feel like I'm not getting much out of this or 511 00:28:16,360 --> 00:28:19,880 the speaker today, or the lessons not good, or what have you or my, you know, 512 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,120 the leadership isn't doing it. Right. Well, 513 00:28:22,120 --> 00:28:26,800 maybe I'm here to contribute something rather than just take what I can give. 514 00:28:27,540 --> 00:28:31,400 And we're all at different points where sometimes we do need things that we get 515 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,440 from church. But overall it always shifts things for me, 516 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,800 if I think I'm just here to give and to serve other than the sacrament that 517 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:41,040 part's for me. Yeah. 518 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:42,960 You know, and I, I sometimes see this dynamic, 519 00:28:42,980 --> 00:28:45,520 not only like on a person to person level, 520 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,400 but also when we are critiquing organizations, even the church, right. 521 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,360 We may on the surface get excited about general conference. 522 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,720 I love the book of Mormon. Like I love the gospel. And then when we get, 523 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:57,360 you know, with some friends or think, okay, 524 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,000 the church has really got led up on this word of wisdom thing. 525 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,640 Like we are losing souls over it. Like they're doing it wrong. 526 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,600 Like this is a different time. Right. Or th this policy just doesn't, I mean, 527 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,520 that's 1950 stuff. We gotta change that. Right. And believe me, 528 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,520 I've been guilty of similar thoughts and, and conversations myself, 529 00:29:12,820 --> 00:29:16,760 but we have to stand back and say, they're writing the manual on it. Right. 530 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:18,880 And they're doing so with the, the best, you know, 531 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:23,000 forms of inspiration and revelation they have. And so sometimes we have to say, 532 00:29:23,180 --> 00:29:25,480 man, this isn't the way I would run the church, 533 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,960 but maybe there's something in here for me to learn. 534 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,600 And maybe I can engage on a deeper level and not worry about man. 535 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,120 If only that policy wasn't there, 536 00:29:33,230 --> 00:29:35,640 I could actually get some things done or we could make a difference, 537 00:29:35,740 --> 00:29:39,280 but how can we work within these different personalities? 538 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:43,280 And even the personalities of organizations in our life that sometimes feel, 539 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:44,920 make us feel like they're holding us back. 540 00:29:44,990 --> 00:29:45,480 Yeah. 541 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:50,280 And I think we sometimes take this principle of obedience a little 542 00:29:50,380 --> 00:29:55,200 too far. We use it as a, a reason to think, maybe I don't believe in this, 543 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,160 or maybe this isn't right. Or maybe again, this leader's doing it wrong. 544 00:29:58,870 --> 00:30:02,760 I don't think that obedience is supposed to come at the expense of your own 545 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:07,680 integrity in your own relationship with heavenly father and with 546 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:12,640 Jesus Christ. I think that I've talked to many people who have said this, like, 547 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,640 how can you just trust that these older men who are out of touch 548 00:30:17,790 --> 00:30:22,720 with society today can know everything that, you know, 549 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,360 we should all be doing. And I, 550 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,200 I don't think they are trying to tell us everything we should be doing. 551 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:28,400 I think our, 552 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,040 the council that we're given is very broad and it's very principle based. 553 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:36,120 And then we each have to decide what that means for us in our own lives. 554 00:30:36,540 --> 00:30:41,000 And I do just wanna add, I coached a young woman recently, 555 00:30:41,460 --> 00:30:45,920 who is a black girl who was feeling really emotional 556 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:50,800 about the way our church responded in the wake of George Floyd and 557 00:30:50,830 --> 00:30:54,640 everything else happening in our country right now. And she felt disappointed. 558 00:30:54,700 --> 00:30:59,200 She felt that she just wished that different things had been said and addressed 559 00:30:59,210 --> 00:31:02,680 by our church leaders. But she was coming to me with a really, 560 00:31:03,070 --> 00:31:05,400 a lot of humility and a broken heart. 561 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,240 And she wanted to believe in the gospel and she wanted to want to go to church, 562 00:31:09,580 --> 00:31:12,320 but she felt really conflicted and emotional. 563 00:31:12,340 --> 00:31:16,200 And so one of the things I recommended is that we, first of all, 564 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:21,160 be clear about the difference between the gospel and people in 565 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,520 church culture. And that we have to always keep that in mind that there, 566 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,560 the gospel is perfect. The doctrine is perfect, but people will never will be. 567 00:31:28,980 --> 00:31:31,520 But second of all, that, you know, in the scriptures, 568 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:36,520 we're taught that if you just want to believe that's enough and that if you want 569 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,880 to sustain your leaders, that that's enough. Yeah. 570 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:41,080 And the Lord can work with us. 571 00:31:41,180 --> 00:31:45,760 And so I think it's okay to have emotion and conflict and confusion. 572 00:31:46,020 --> 00:31:48,920 The Lord will work with you wherever you are, I believe. 573 00:31:49,110 --> 00:31:51,720 Yeah. And it really goes back, you know, when you start again, 574 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,720 defining yourself by those thoughts or, or those feelings like, oh, 575 00:31:55,870 --> 00:31:57,920 a good latter day saying, wouldn't think like this, 576 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,920 and there's something wrong with me. I mean, that's just, you begin spiral, 577 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,640 you know? Yeah. Another principle I appreciate in, uh, 578 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,880 that episode I referenced is this giving people permission to be themselves. 579 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,920 Yeah. Uh, expand on that. Maybe how it fits in with leader. Yeah. 580 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:13,440 Wouldn't that be nice? . 581 00:32:14,510 --> 00:32:15,343 Yeah. 582 00:32:15,390 --> 00:32:19,960 I think sometimes we just get so set in 583 00:32:20,140 --> 00:32:23,040 the way that we think other people should be in. 584 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,720 We are pretty influential and sometimes manipulative. 585 00:32:26,730 --> 00:32:30,800 So sometimes we can get people to behave the way we want. 586 00:32:31,580 --> 00:32:34,880 The problem is now they're pretending. Right. 587 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:39,560 So I see this in spouse relationships where I might tell my husband, Hey, 588 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:44,280 listen, this is my love language is, uh, is gifts. 589 00:32:44,930 --> 00:32:47,680 So I need a gift or a nice note every now and then. 590 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,200 And maybe my husband wants to make me happy. 591 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,360 He might start giving me a gift to writing me a note. 592 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,400 But if he's doing it just because I told him to, 593 00:32:56,350 --> 00:33:01,040 then I'm connecting with this version of him that I manipulated and created. 594 00:33:01,060 --> 00:33:03,520 I'm not connecting with him really. 595 00:33:03,810 --> 00:33:06,360 If he's not a person who normally would do that. 596 00:33:06,860 --> 00:33:09,960 And so it's really powerful to recognize that as human beings, 597 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,960 we all crave connection. We crave, um, 598 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,160 understanding one another and feeling understood and feeling heard. 599 00:33:16,780 --> 00:33:21,720 And yet we walk around trying to change everybody into us. You know, 600 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,640 we say things like I would never do that. If I was the relief society president, 601 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:30,120 I would never say that, or I would never do that, but she's not you. 602 00:33:30,620 --> 00:33:35,280 And so the beauty of our experience on earth is that we are all different. 603 00:33:35,780 --> 00:33:40,000 And so I like to just try to, like, 604 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,400 we talked about the manual in the beginning, right? All of these expectations. 605 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,680 What if your only expectation was that they be themselves? 606 00:33:47,250 --> 00:33:50,080 My only expectation my Bishop is Bishop Woodward. 607 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,360 And if my expectation is just be Bishop Woodward, 608 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,720 cause he's really good at it. He's really good at being him. 609 00:33:57,230 --> 00:33:59,120 He's had years of practice. He's. 610 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,920 Had so much practice. I don't have to tell him how to do it. 611 00:34:02,070 --> 00:34:06,560 He's gonna do it perfectly. And then I get to appreciate him. 612 00:34:06,980 --> 00:34:09,000 And again, of course, he's gonna do that. Anyway. 613 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,160 It's something we do in our own heads for ourselves to allow us to appreciate 614 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:14,960 and, and really embrace people as they are. 615 00:34:14,990 --> 00:34:18,720 Yeah. And to me, that's where the relationship truly forms and takes root. 616 00:34:18,720 --> 00:34:23,040 Where if with my wife, if I'm constantly looking everything transactional, like, 617 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,520 okay, she likes gifts. So I'm gonna do this gift and maybe I'll get something, 618 00:34:26,700 --> 00:34:30,640 you know, back later or maybe she'll show me my love language, you know? Yes, 619 00:34:30,870 --> 00:34:33,920 it's all transactional. But when we, you know, not to say, 620 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,400 you shouldn't figure out how your wife or spouse feels appreciated love, 621 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,800 but doing it from a point of like, I just wanna know you more like I want you, 622 00:34:41,980 --> 00:34:44,440 and if that's part of you, I want it. You know, and, 623 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,920 and I'm willing to understand it and embrace it rather than well let's, uh, 624 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,000 if I give you this, what are you gonna give me type of thing. 625 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,680 And we do that a lot with, with leadership, you know, leaders. 626 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,640 Are like, and an important point I wanna add here is that doesn't mean you, 627 00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:01,000 that we shouldn't make requests of people. I'm all for like, Hey Jake, 628 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,400 would you mind hanging those shelves in the kids' room? 629 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,280 And do you think you could get home earlier? And would you give me a back rub? 630 00:35:07,350 --> 00:35:12,000 Like I'm all for you making requests or making requests of your Bishop or your, 631 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:12,833 your leaders. 632 00:35:13,060 --> 00:35:17,800 The difference is that when we hang our emotions on whether or not they do it 633 00:35:17,940 --> 00:35:20,120 and we choose to be grumpy and unhappy, 634 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,920 if they aren't willing to do it or don't do it now, we are getting into trouble. 635 00:35:23,970 --> 00:35:27,920 So I make requests all day long. I just know I'm responsible for how I feel. 636 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:32,440 And if I choose to feel disappointed, I might, but that's on me. And, 637 00:35:32,460 --> 00:35:36,600 and I don't give my emotional control over to other people because then I turn 638 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:38,480 into a crazy person. yeah. 639 00:35:39,060 --> 00:35:41,000 You know, in another area where I see, you know, 640 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,040 this concept of giving permission to people to be themselves, 641 00:35:44,130 --> 00:35:45,400 or I see it happen in the, 642 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,000 in the church leadership dynamic is I remember serving in the state pregnancy, 643 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,680 you know, we'd consider different people for calling, you know, 644 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:53,080 so we call bishops every once in a while. 645 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:57,240 And there's sort of this natural tendency that we're trying to look for. 646 00:35:57,240 --> 00:36:01,600 The guy in the ward, who's gonna act how we would've act if we're in that world. 647 00:36:01,610 --> 00:36:03,880 So it's easy to call someone we know, 648 00:36:03,980 --> 00:36:07,120 and we've seen them make decisions similar ours. So we call them that. 649 00:36:07,340 --> 00:36:11,040 And I think there's power and deeper inspiration and revelation. 650 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,400 When we step back as leaders and say, okay, 651 00:36:13,620 --> 00:36:17,800 I'm gonna give everybody permission this word to, if we call em to this, 652 00:36:18,150 --> 00:36:20,400 this role as Bishop or leaf site or whatever, 653 00:36:20,470 --> 00:36:25,000 that they have 100% permission to lead as they want to lead, 654 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,080 or as they would be a leader. Right. Rather than calling them and saying, okay, 655 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:29,760 let me clear this few things up. You know, you'll, 656 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,760 you're a little bit abrasive or, and again, feedback's good and helpful, 657 00:36:33,220 --> 00:36:37,240 but sometimes we do it cuz we're trying to form them into us. Yeah. 658 00:36:37,240 --> 00:36:39,240 As if we were going to be that leader. But just, 659 00:36:39,240 --> 00:36:43,240 and that's the beauty of this lay leadership is you get some personalities in 660 00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:46,880 there that try different things or don't try things. And, and we learn from it, 661 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,480 right. And at the end of the day is a well-oiled perfect, you know, 662 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,320 machine that we sometimes feel like the restored gospel should be like creating 663 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,280 great leaders and they should be acting perfectly and they should have great 664 00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,200 training and all these things. But at the end of the day, 665 00:36:59,270 --> 00:37:03,440 it's a sanctifying mechanism and people come out of these callings just as 666 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,320 different people. And that's a good thing. 667 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,280 They're learning more about who they are and they're gaining more permission to 668 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:09,240 be themselves. Right. 669 00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:10,720 It's a really good point. And, 670 00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:14,920 and we don't need more people that are like us in leadership. 671 00:37:15,250 --> 00:37:18,560 We need people that are not like us because we need people to have the strengths 672 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:23,240 we don't have. Yeah. I already have me that can think of the ideas that I have. 673 00:37:23,240 --> 00:37:27,240 I need someone that thinks totally different than me if I really understand the 674 00:37:27,240 --> 00:37:28,030 bigger picture. 675 00:37:28,030 --> 00:37:31,720 Yeah. And I think in, especially like in a meeting dynamic, 676 00:37:31,830 --> 00:37:35,760 this is really important to point out and give per like verbally give permission 677 00:37:35,930 --> 00:37:38,240 to people, to be themselves where, you know, 678 00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:40,720 you may be in a high council meeting and there's always that one high 679 00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:43,320 Councilman, that's just like, all right, you talk too much. 680 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,640 What you say is sort of off base. And I don't really like your ideas. 681 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,000 You're always the contrarian, but to say, Hey brother Smith, 682 00:37:50,150 --> 00:37:52,240 I want you to know as the stake president, 683 00:37:52,350 --> 00:37:56,840 you're on this council because you are to push back on me. I like that. 684 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,720 And I want you to be 100% you when you're in, in here. 685 00:37:59,720 --> 00:38:04,720 And if anybody in this room is trying to hide behind a pose in attempt to 686 00:38:04,850 --> 00:38:08,880 be liked by me or go along with my ideas, you are not living up to that, 687 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,760 that role. I need you to be you. Right. And that's what makes this go around. 688 00:38:12,820 --> 00:38:17,680 And that's where the best ideas come from too. Is that, that dynamic. So yeah. 689 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:18,280 Yeah. I. 690 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,040 Agree. That's so true. What about, 691 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,920 and I think you've touched on this a little bit, but only expecting how, 692 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,320 how would you say that only giving yourself expectations or how, 693 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:28,520 how do you say that? 694 00:38:28,870 --> 00:38:32,160 Well, and I think this would be really relevant to, 695 00:38:32,890 --> 00:38:36,960 to consider for, for leaders that, um, 696 00:38:38,730 --> 00:38:42,920 we have to define success for ourselves. First of all. 697 00:38:43,060 --> 00:38:47,320 And we can like, to your point only have an expectation of ourselves. 698 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:51,120 I try to keep my expectations about what do I expect of me, 699 00:38:51,580 --> 00:38:54,000 not what do I expect of other people? Because again, 700 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:58,080 I'm the only one I have control over. So let me speak to the first point, 701 00:38:58,080 --> 00:38:59,760 which is, as a leader, 702 00:39:00,310 --> 00:39:04,800 you're going to have people that are not gonna like your approach or that are 703 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:06,720 going to criticize or what have you. 704 00:39:07,300 --> 00:39:10,760 And that doesn't mean you're not doing a good job necessarily. 705 00:39:11,250 --> 00:39:13,680 So I think it's important. Like as a coach, 706 00:39:14,610 --> 00:39:19,200 my goal is not to make people feel better, to help them be happier, 707 00:39:19,610 --> 00:39:24,400 to even help them improve their lives or change their thoughts in a healthy way. 708 00:39:24,620 --> 00:39:28,080 Cuz none of that's within my control, my goal, 709 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,080 the way I measure my success is am I prepared? 710 00:39:31,690 --> 00:39:35,080 Am I keeping myself not judgemental? 711 00:39:35,250 --> 00:39:38,760 Am I continuing to learn and refine and get better at what I do? 712 00:39:38,770 --> 00:39:43,440 Am I loving my client? Am I telling my client the truth? 713 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,400 Even when the truth is hard, going to be hard for them to hear. 714 00:39:46,530 --> 00:39:50,440 So there are times when my clients leave my coaching session mad at me, 715 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:52,960 they'll tell me I was really mad when you said that. 716 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,520 And sometimes they'll say now I get it. 717 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,360 Thanks for telling me that but my goal can't be that they like me or 718 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,600 that they're happy. My goal is that I'm showing them and telling them the truth. 719 00:40:03,630 --> 00:40:07,680 Okay. So I define success for myself around the things that I have control over. 720 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:09,000 And that's what makes me a good coach. 721 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,800 They don't need someone to just validate their pain. 722 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,120 They have sisters and friends for that. They need me to tell them the truth. 723 00:40:15,570 --> 00:40:18,040 So I think in a leadership position at church, 724 00:40:18,300 --> 00:40:22,000 you have to define success for yourself. What is success? 725 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,840 What is me being the best Bishop I could be. 726 00:40:25,170 --> 00:40:29,040 It might sometimes be telling somebody something they don't really wanna hear. 727 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,760 And that's always true in leadership, right? Not just as a Bishop, 728 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:36,720 but so really get clear about what is success. I, I think again, 729 00:40:36,850 --> 00:40:40,640 as a faith-based coach, like you said, I also teach other coaches. 730 00:40:40,670 --> 00:40:45,000 I say the most important part for me of being a faith-based coach is that I have 731 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:49,600 a responsibility to keep my faith in check to, you know, 732 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:54,560 say a prayer before I do a podcast to try to stay open to the spirit 733 00:40:54,770 --> 00:40:57,960 in my life. And so I think as leaders, of course, 734 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:01,160 that's gonna be a big part of our success, but we have to define it in that way. 735 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:05,720 And then we can have those expectations of ourselves and we can doesn't mean 736 00:41:05,720 --> 00:41:07,560 we'll be perfect at it, but we can assess, 737 00:41:07,850 --> 00:41:12,840 am I meeting my expectation or am I falling short and take the focus 738 00:41:13,020 --> 00:41:15,320 off of what other people are doing? 739 00:41:15,830 --> 00:41:18,960 Yeah. That's an interesting, it almost turns the tables a little bit, 740 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,760 cuz we've talked about how we sometimes have expectations for the leaders in our 741 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,240 life. But when you are the leader, you sometimes lose sleep over. 742 00:41:26,240 --> 00:41:30,160 What's the word expected me and I better act in a way that I'm sort of pleasing 743 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:31,720 everybody. And, and then again, 744 00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:35,320 we've now removed that permission from ourselves to be ourselves that's and to 745 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:39,000 lead in the way that we wanna lead. Right. And, and I always tell leaders like, 746 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:40,520 there's gonna be about, you know, 747 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:45,480 when you're called as Bishop 15% of the war just won't really like you and 5% 748 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,440 probably will hate you. And, and really there's no way around that. Yeah. 749 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,640 But what happens is we can be so like, 750 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,840 we don't want people to not like us and we want them to everybody have a good 751 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:58,680 experience. So we hyper focus on that 15% and not worry about the 752 00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:00,840 85% and uh, you know, 753 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,040 do things that will bring them over to that percentage that likes you. 754 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:07,000 And that's not helping you like cuz a lot of time that, 755 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,920 that 15% you can't really control how they think or what they do and whether 756 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,360 they like you or not. And, and once you do that, maybe you do win 'em over, 757 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,000 but then you just create a new 15% that doesn't like you, 758 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,000 cause you that's exactly right. You change the way you've done. Right? 759 00:42:19,010 --> 00:42:21,680 So this is a good thing for a leader to ponder over. 760 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:26,120 Is am I acting differently because of perceived 761 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:26,880 expectations, 762 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,560 I'm getting from the ward and maybe there are a hundred percent accurate, 763 00:42:29,580 --> 00:42:32,720 but why is that a reason to change how you are leading? 764 00:42:32,990 --> 00:42:37,480 When in reality you have certain skills and attributes that can take the word a 765 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,600 certain direction that uh, is gonna bless a lot more lives. 766 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:45,320 That's right. And I think that's when we step into our best version of us, 767 00:42:45,430 --> 00:42:50,160 like the best version of me is when I allow myself to be the Jodies 768 00:42:50,270 --> 00:42:51,400 Jodi that I can be, 769 00:42:51,820 --> 00:42:56,000 but that's hard to do because I have my own fear of people's judgment and am I 770 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,800 doing it wrong? And I kind of wanna do it the way I saw this person do it. 771 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,800 I really liked their approach. So that's a challenge, 772 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:05,640 but I think that's what the Lord wants of us. And that's where we, 773 00:43:05,810 --> 00:43:10,400 we become our best and not everyone's gonna like me when I'm the 774 00:43:10,470 --> 00:43:11,960 Jodies Jodie, they kind of, 775 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,520 some people prefer a more watered down version of me. Yeah. 776 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,400 So I think that's so powerful to think about as a leader. Yeah. 777 00:43:18,470 --> 00:43:21,520 Yeah. And I just was just talking to a, a Bishop, uh, 778 00:43:21,710 --> 00:43:24,480 a couple weeks ago and he told me the story about how, 779 00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:28,040 when he was called as Bishop, he continued to turn his BI or stake, 780 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,680 present down, said, I'm not doing this. I am not fit to be a Bishop. 781 00:43:31,830 --> 00:43:34,760 This is not me. And the state president kept encouraging, no, no, no. 782 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,720 We want you to lead any way you want. Right. And we want you to be you. 783 00:43:38,780 --> 00:43:41,760 And he's like, okay, well let me make a list of things. I'm not doing. You know, 784 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:43,960 I'm not doing the meeting thing that for hours and hours. 785 00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,120 And he went down this list and they're all like, you know, 786 00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:49,040 none of 'em were against quote unquote the handbook. Yeah. 787 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:52,760 And the state president just said, yeah, okay. Do those things. 788 00:43:52,850 --> 00:43:56,640 We want you to lead in the way you wanna lead. And so if a, 789 00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,880 if a leader finds themselves sort of in this friction where they're like, yeah, 790 00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:03,480 but my St president like Kurt and Jody, if you only knew my stick president, 791 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,640 he's not gonna let me be me. Like have that conversation and say, listen, 792 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,200 president, I feel like I can't be me. 793 00:44:10,900 --> 00:44:14,040 And when you're in the room and let's talk about that for a minute. I mean, I, 794 00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,000 those are conversations worth having, because if you don't, 795 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,960 these callings are miserable, they are miserable. Yeah. And, 796 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:25,000 but they can be remarkable if you figure out a way to discover who you are and 797 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:25,960 then act accordingly. 798 00:44:26,460 --> 00:44:30,480 And even for your reward members, right. Saying my relief society, presence, 799 00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:33,880 doing it wrong. It's kind of the concept in management. 800 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:35,800 We used to call managing up. Mm-hmm , 801 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,600 there's nothing wrong with making a request of the person above you or 802 00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:40,520 communicating with them and saying, you know, 803 00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:43,920 what I think would be great is if we tried this or what would be helpful for me 804 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:47,240 is this thing. And maybe your request isn't honored, 805 00:44:47,240 --> 00:44:50,200 but I think most leaders want to hear that. 806 00:44:50,310 --> 00:44:53,840 Yeah. Yeah. I remember a specific conversation when I was Bishop, 807 00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:56,360 I had at the state president, I said, present, I love you. 808 00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:58,000 And I'm willing to follow you anywhere, 809 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,920 but I just want you to know your three hour steak, 810 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:05,040 Bishop Rick meetings are killing me. Like we have got to shrink these down. 811 00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:08,600 I do not enjoy them. Okay. Like, and if you can't have that conversation, 812 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:10,720 like just means you need to work on that, 813 00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:13,680 that relationship more and more because you should be able to have those 814 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,400 conversations in my opinion. Awesome. All right. 815 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,840 Great point with expectation when we understand it from the perspective of, 816 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:21,640 of the leadership. So, you know, 817 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:23,520 let me go here and that'll be a good final thought, 818 00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:27,000 but people are maybe listening to this and thinking good points, Jody, 819 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:28,000 great points, Kurt, 820 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:32,160 but you don't understand my stake president. 821 00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:36,400 My Bishop is a tyrant and he is abusive and he is doing harm. 822 00:45:36,420 --> 00:45:40,040 And you probably hear this in the context of your coaching. Like no, no, Jody, 823 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:41,760 what, when I said that to my husband, 824 00:45:42,210 --> 00:45:45,600 he gave me a backhand and now I'm in the hospital, you know, like, okay, 825 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:47,720 like you're not going to, you know, coach your, 826 00:45:47,720 --> 00:45:49,520 what you need to get yourself to a safe place. 827 00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,560 So what do you say when people think no, no, but abuse is happening. 828 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:53,720 I can't just, I, I, 829 00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:57,560 I need to expect that my husband or spouse or leader isn't going to be abusive. 830 00:45:57,560 --> 00:45:58,110 Right? 831 00:45:58,110 --> 00:45:59,760 Yeah. It's a good question. 832 00:45:59,930 --> 00:46:04,720 So I like to think of it in regards to the economic principle that is 833 00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:06,440 called the law of diminishing returns. 834 00:46:07,250 --> 00:46:12,160 So the idea is that there are things that are useful and necessary for us, 835 00:46:12,220 --> 00:46:16,840 but up to a certain point, and then we start to lose the effectiveness of them. 836 00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:17,880 And then they actually, 837 00:46:18,290 --> 00:46:21,960 in this case can become something that creates problems for us. 838 00:46:22,450 --> 00:46:23,920 So I like to teach, listen, 839 00:46:23,970 --> 00:46:28,640 of course you should have expectations about how people treat you. 840 00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:32,640 And what I mean by that is if they don't, you protect yourself, 841 00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:34,120 maybe you have boundaries. 842 00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:39,000 Maybe you need to remove yourself temporarily or permanently from a 843 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:43,440 relationship or a situation. This is not about allowing people to mistreat you. 844 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:47,360 So we should have, I have a basic expectation that my husband doesn't hit me. 845 00:46:47,690 --> 00:46:48,680 If he did hit me, 846 00:46:48,710 --> 00:46:52,840 I would need to make decisions about if I want to stay in this marriage or, 847 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:57,080 or what have you, right. Or that a Bishop not verbally abused or, 848 00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,880 or any of that. Right. So expectations. 849 00:47:00,180 --> 00:47:04,880 And then you maintaining your own boundaries is useful to a certain 850 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:05,580 point. 851 00:47:05,580 --> 00:47:10,240 And then we cross a line where now it just becomes a way to disconnect and 852 00:47:10,240 --> 00:47:14,680 judge and feel terrible. I like to use the analogy of safety. 853 00:47:15,010 --> 00:47:18,960 It is appropriate to understand that cars can be dangerous. 854 00:47:19,350 --> 00:47:20,600 It's useful, right? 855 00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,120 It improves the quality of my life to understand that if I don't buckle my 856 00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:24,860 seatbelt, 857 00:47:24,860 --> 00:47:28,480 I'm putting myself in harm or that I don't wanna get in the car with someone 858 00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:31,840 who's been been drinking alcohol or something. Those are useful things. 859 00:47:32,140 --> 00:47:36,720 But if I sit around and think all day about how scary cars are, 860 00:47:36,820 --> 00:47:39,880 and I never allow myself to get in a car to go anywhere now, 861 00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:41,560 I'm not improving the quality of my life. 862 00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:46,520 I'm actually diminishing the quality of my life because I'm so scared of it that 863 00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:50,600 I just can't go very far. So the same is true with expectations of people. 864 00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,840 We need to have some basic ones. We need to be respecting and loving ourselves. 865 00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:58,520 And that might mean setting boundaries. But then we cross this line at which it, 866 00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:02,040 it now diminishes the quality of our life and our relationships. 867 00:48:03,270 --> 00:48:05,320 Yeah. And that is so powerful. And that's the thing. 868 00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:09,440 If maybe you literally do have a tyrant as a leader and you need to take some 869 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:13,160 steps to create some safety or notify, you know, the state president, 870 00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:14,520 their area authority or whomever. 871 00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:18,800 It is the saying this experience happened and abuse happened and we don't wanna 872 00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:20,720 dismiss any of that to, well, 873 00:48:20,720 --> 00:48:22,680 you shouldn't expect so much from your Bishop . 874 00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,480 That would not be that's right. I'm so glad you pointed that out. Yes. 875 00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:28,960 Yeah. So as, as we wrap up, I'm just thinking of, 876 00:48:29,130 --> 00:48:31,880 it seems like for all my many decades in the church, 877 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:36,520 like I've heard this conversation come up many times in an elders quo or Sunday 878 00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:41,120 school class where people may say, I wish this ward was more unified. I wish, 879 00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:46,040 I wish we were. I wish unity was the focus of this. And so generally default, 880 00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:47,040 like, wow, okay, 881 00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:50,360 well maybe we should have a pizza party and we'll have a pizza party and people 882 00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:54,240 will come together and they'll talk and naturally this unity will just sprout 883 00:48:54,240 --> 00:48:56,760 up. And so we default in these like potlucks mm-hmm, 884 00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,480 thinking if we get, yeah. If people talk more about, you know, 885 00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:04,000 sports and politics, that should do it . Um, but in reality, 886 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:07,040 like Unity's much more difficult, you know, 887 00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,160 stimulating positive culture is much more difficult, 888 00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:15,000 but it can start with you and, and everybody is at the helm. Right? And I, 889 00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,360 and sometimes people think, well, if, if, if I was in that calling, 890 00:49:18,390 --> 00:49:20,880 I would do it differently. Well, do it differently now. Right? 891 00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:22,320 Like do it differently outside the calling. 892 00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:26,800 And this is these principles you share so effective in helping people think, 893 00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:28,040 you know, I could do differently. 894 00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:31,600 And it starts with how I'm thinking about the ward, how I'm approaching it, 895 00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:35,800 the empathy, then compassion I'm I'm showing. So any final thoughts or what, 896 00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:37,960 what encouragement would you give to those two? 897 00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:42,720 Maybe that member who's just really struggling by expecting so much from 898 00:49:42,720 --> 00:49:43,230 their leader. 899 00:49:43,230 --> 00:49:46,320 Yeah. I guess what you're saying is reminding me of a story. 900 00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:51,080 I heard recently where there's a farmer working in his field and he sees a, 901 00:49:51,110 --> 00:49:52,720 a shiny black car pull up. 902 00:49:52,810 --> 00:49:56,600 So he walks over to the fence and the gentleman gets out in a suit and he says, 903 00:49:56,600 --> 00:50:00,520 I'm new to town here. Can you tell me what kind of people are in this town? 904 00:50:00,780 --> 00:50:04,040 And the farmer says, well, what kind of people did you find in your last town? 905 00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:06,240 And he says, well, they were the worst kind of people. 906 00:50:06,240 --> 00:50:09,800 They were mean and judgemental, and they never talked to each other. 907 00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:13,400 And the farmer says, yep, those are the kind of people you'll find here too. 908 00:50:13,700 --> 00:50:16,000 And then he goes back to work. And a few minutes later, 909 00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:20,160 a guy pulls up in an old pickup truck, gets out, farmer, comes to the fence, 910 00:50:20,540 --> 00:50:23,600 the man in his jeans. And t-shirt, he says, I'm new to town. 911 00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:27,000 Here is wondering if you could tell me what kind of people are in this town. 912 00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:29,920 And the farmer says, what kind of people were in your last town? 913 00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:34,000 And he says the best people, they were kind and loving and friendly. 914 00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:37,600 And the farmer says, yep, those are the kind of people you'll find here too. 915 00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:42,960 so, um, I think it's kind of a cheesy story, but I was like, 916 00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:47,880 that is so true that if I think this word is not unified and people 917 00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:50,640 aren't connected and the Bishop's not doing it right. 918 00:50:50,910 --> 00:50:55,760 I can find evidence of that for sure. And if I choose to think here's the truth, 919 00:50:55,860 --> 00:50:59,560 the fact that we all believe in the doctrine of the church, 920 00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:00,560 at least to a certain level, 921 00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:04,960 or we have a desire to believe unifies us right away, we are all unified. 922 00:51:05,300 --> 00:51:09,960 And whether we are social or not, or we share hobbies and interests, 923 00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:13,400 none of that matters. If you think this is a unified word, 924 00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,160 and I love these people, you will find reasons for that. 925 00:51:16,500 --> 00:51:20,120 And the brain is just so powerful. We will find whatever we're looking for. 926 00:51:25,270 --> 00:51:30,080 That concludes my interview with Jody Moore, please check out her podcast. 927 00:51:30,100 --> 00:51:34,120 You can, uh, look up better than happy. That's the name of her podcast on, uh, 928 00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:37,080 wherever you're listening to this podcast, go to her website, 929 00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:41,400 Jody moore.com and, uh, dive into the archives. Really good stuff. Uh, 930 00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:43,960 we'll link to that episode called expectation pain. I mean, 931 00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:46,440 we basically review some of the same, uh, principles, 932 00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:50,800 but my heart goes out to you. You individuals, whether you're a leader or not, 933 00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:53,280 sometimes we deal with difficult leaders. 934 00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:57,440 Sometimes we deal with leaders who don't see the world the same way we do, 935 00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:01,200 or they just have a different approach to life. Right. And that's okay, 936 00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:02,880 there's still room to thrive. 937 00:52:02,970 --> 00:52:05,760 We don't just have to wait around until they get released. 938 00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:09,720 There's still room just right. And we invite you to do so. 939 00:52:09,720 --> 00:52:13,600 That's what this organization, this community of leaders is about. Be a leader, 940 00:52:13,860 --> 00:52:16,640 not a calling, be a leader, not just award member, 941 00:52:16,810 --> 00:52:20,680 be an engaged leader and lead. Even though you don't have a title, 942 00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:25,080 there's so much room for you to influence and make the award that your 943 00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:28,560 community, whatever it is, your stake, what it needs to be, 944 00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:32,160 at least for some of them. Right? So again, check out Jody Moore. And, uh, 945 00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:33,320 I would love to hear from you, 946 00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:36,800 if you go to leading saints.org/contact and send me message, 947 00:52:36,910 --> 00:52:40,600 what perspective are we missing? What scenario have you seen? 948 00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:43,520 Have you seen this handled before? It'd be awesome to hear. 949 00:52:43,620 --> 00:52:47,720 And that concludes this throwback episode of the leading saints podcast. 950 00:52:48,220 --> 00:52:51,760 And remember to get on the email newsletter list, simply go to leading. 951 00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:56,760 Saints.org/it. 952 00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:17,160 Came as a result of the position of leadership, 953 00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:21,080 which was imposed upon us by the God of heaven, 954 00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:25,880 who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. 955 00:53:26,300 --> 00:53:31,240 And when the declaration was made concerning the own and only true 956 00:53:31,240 --> 00:53:33,880 and living church upon the face of the earth, 957 00:53:34,410 --> 00:53:37,880 we were immediately put in a position of loneliness, 958 00:53:37,900 --> 00:53:42,440 the loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink, 959 00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:43,560 nor runaway, 960 00:53:44,620 --> 00:53:48,520 and to which we must face up with boldness and courage 961 00:53:49,300 --> 00:53:50,080 and ability.