1 00:00:00,195 --> 00:00:00,275 - 2 00:00:05,025 --> 00:00:06,955 - Welcome back to another episode 3 00:00:07,215 --> 00:00:08,515 of the Leading Saints Podcast. 4 00:00:09,135 --> 00:00:12,235 If you've enjoyed content on this podcast, it's important 5 00:00:12,235 --> 00:00:14,915 that I tell you about the Leading Saints newsletter 6 00:00:15,185 --> 00:00:16,915 that we send out every week. 7 00:00:17,385 --> 00:00:19,075 This newsletter keeps you up 8 00:00:19,075 --> 00:00:22,195 to date on all the current leading Saints content releases, 9 00:00:22,305 --> 00:00:25,395 including podcasts, articles, online events, 10 00:00:25,695 --> 00:00:26,715 and even live events 11 00:00:26,785 --> 00:00:29,835 that might be happening in your own area in this newsletter. 12 00:00:29,975 --> 00:00:32,315 We also recommend some past episodes 13 00:00:32,315 --> 00:00:35,115 and written articles that you don't want to miss each week. 14 00:00:35,135 --> 00:00:37,715 We include additional leadership perspectives 15 00:00:38,095 --> 00:00:39,835 and thoughts that you can only 16 00:00:40,385 --> 00:00:41,995 find in the weekly newsletter. 17 00:00:42,375 --> 00:00:44,435 So you definitely don't wanna miss out. 18 00:00:44,855 --> 00:00:46,555 To subscribe to the weekly newsletter, 19 00:00:46,555 --> 00:00:50,635 simply text the word lead to 4 7 4 7 4 7, 20 00:00:50,935 --> 00:00:53,595 or visit leading saints.org/subscribe. 21 00:00:59,595 --> 00:01:02,115 - I am Rob Hillman. I live in Iowa City, Iowa, 22 00:01:02,245 --> 00:01:03,955 originally from Eastern Idaho. 23 00:01:04,535 --> 00:01:08,235 And one thing I've appreciated about leading Saints is 24 00:01:08,855 --> 00:01:13,435 the feeling that being a leader, being able to have 25 00:01:14,195 --> 00:01:17,195 a connection with a savior, um, is something that we do 26 00:01:17,735 --> 00:01:21,475 by being active and sort of anxiously engaged in the gospel. 27 00:01:21,615 --> 00:01:24,755 And I sort of feel that as I listen to the podcast, um, 28 00:01:24,755 --> 00:01:27,795 listen to the interviews, and I feel a genuine sense that, 29 00:01:28,015 --> 00:01:30,475 you know, we're all needed at the church through kind 30 00:01:30,475 --> 00:01:33,475 of the, the approach that Kurt takes to leading Saints. 31 00:01:33,475 --> 00:01:35,355 So I really appreciate the, the work he does. 32 00:01:38,785 --> 00:01:41,915 - Leading Saints is a nonprofit organization dedicated 33 00:01:41,915 --> 00:01:45,395 to helping Latter Day Saints be better prepared to lead. 34 00:01:45,495 --> 00:01:46,995 And we do that through various ways, 35 00:01:46,995 --> 00:01:49,275 including this very podcast that you're listening to. 36 00:01:49,395 --> 00:01:50,395 I hope you subscribe. 37 00:01:50,685 --> 00:01:52,915 Maybe you leave this a review while you're at it, 38 00:01:53,135 --> 00:01:54,675 and I think you'll enjoy the content 39 00:01:54,775 --> 00:01:55,795 you find on this podcast. 40 00:01:56,335 --> 00:01:58,675 And then jump on over to leading saints.org, 41 00:01:58,695 --> 00:02:01,355 and you'll find thousands of articles dedicated 42 00:02:01,355 --> 00:02:03,475 to leadership context as it relates to, 43 00:02:03,535 --> 00:02:04,715 uh, being a latter day saint. 44 00:02:04,935 --> 00:02:06,555 We have virtual summits that we've done, 45 00:02:06,575 --> 00:02:07,915 checks it out on social media, 46 00:02:08,175 --> 00:02:10,115 and also a weekly newsletter that goes out 47 00:02:10,115 --> 00:02:12,435 that has unique content you won't find anywhere else. 48 00:02:12,535 --> 00:02:14,795 So, uh, jump into the leading saints world. 49 00:02:15,045 --> 00:02:16,045 We're glad to have you. 50 00:02:18,655 --> 00:02:21,915 - It came as a result of the position of leadership, 51 00:02:21,925 --> 00:02:25,515 which was imposed upon us by the God of Heaven, 52 00:02:25,615 --> 00:02:29,115 who brought forth a restoration of the gospel 53 00:02:29,415 --> 00:02:30,715 of Jesus Christ. 54 00:02:31,585 --> 00:02:34,995 When the Declaration was made concerning the own 55 00:02:35,095 --> 00:02:36,195 and only true 56 00:02:36,195 --> 00:02:38,715 and living church upon the face of the earth, 57 00:02:39,535 --> 00:02:42,875 we were immediately put in a position of loneliness. 58 00:02:43,055 --> 00:02:47,235 The loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink 59 00:02:47,415 --> 00:02:52,235 nor run away, and to which we must face up with boldness 60 00:02:52,375 --> 00:02:54,395 and courage and ability. 61 00:02:59,345 --> 00:03:02,525 - I'm here with Mike Hoteling. How are you, Mike? I'm 62 00:03:02,525 --> 00:03:03,525 - Great. 63 00:03:03,525 --> 00:03:04,605 I'm glad and terrified to be here. 64 00:03:04,965 --> 00:03:06,885 - . Now, tell, set the scene here. 65 00:03:06,885 --> 00:03:10,725 Like this is a, an atypical, uh, setting for the podcast. 66 00:03:11,005 --> 00:03:12,165 I usually record Where are 67 00:03:12,165 --> 00:03:13,845 we at and, and what are we doing here? We are 68 00:03:13,845 --> 00:03:17,885 - Just outside of Juan Ship, Utah at Big Canyon Ranch, 69 00:03:18,025 --> 00:03:20,525 at a Men's Warrior Heart Bootcamp retreat. 70 00:03:20,585 --> 00:03:22,845 And this is the most beautiful place in the world, 71 00:03:23,145 --> 00:03:25,005 and we're surrounded by 12 72 00:03:25,025 --> 00:03:26,365 of the most beautiful men in the world. 73 00:03:26,725 --> 00:03:28,725 - . That's right. We have a, a live studio audience. 74 00:03:28,725 --> 00:03:33,005 Everybody make noise and say hi. Right. Wow. 75 00:03:33,005 --> 00:03:35,285 That sounded like almost 24 men, you know, that was good. 76 00:03:35,525 --> 00:03:37,485 . So, yeah, we've, we've promoted these, 77 00:03:37,775 --> 00:03:39,925 these bootcamps on the, the podcast 78 00:03:40,185 --> 00:03:41,805 and many, many men are here 79 00:03:41,805 --> 00:03:43,645 because of some of those podcasts. 80 00:03:43,785 --> 00:03:45,845 The, the promotions we've done. And, uh, yeah. 81 00:03:45,845 --> 00:03:47,565 What would, what would you say, Mike, you, you're, 82 00:03:47,565 --> 00:03:50,525 you're currently serving as a Bishop Latterday Saints. 83 00:03:50,915 --> 00:03:52,125 Here you are. Uh, what 84 00:03:52,765 --> 00:03:54,405 I am, why should people check this out? I 85 00:03:54,605 --> 00:03:56,685 - Wish I could bring my entire YSA ward here. 86 00:03:56,795 --> 00:03:58,125 Male to the bootcamp. Yeah. 87 00:03:58,125 --> 00:03:59,925 And females to the heart of a woman. Yeah. 88 00:04:00,145 --> 00:04:01,205 Uh, it is a real deal. 89 00:04:01,385 --> 00:04:03,085 It doesn't substitute for anything 90 00:04:03,085 --> 00:04:04,445 that we already believe in the church. 91 00:04:04,585 --> 00:04:06,285 It doesn't conflict with anything. 92 00:04:06,865 --> 00:04:08,685 It, uh, helps me, helped me 93 00:04:08,905 --> 00:04:11,925 and helps us to see another side of God 94 00:04:12,155 --> 00:04:14,005 that maybe we didn't learn growing up, 95 00:04:14,005 --> 00:04:16,485 and maybe we weren't taught exactly this way in the church. 96 00:04:17,465 --> 00:04:19,115 - Yeah, there's, there's, there's beauty in sort 97 00:04:19,115 --> 00:04:20,835 of stepping back and maybe taking a 98 00:04:20,835 --> 00:04:21,955 different perspective. Right. We, 99 00:04:21,955 --> 00:04:22,955 - That's right. 100 00:04:22,955 --> 00:04:23,835 I speak, I speak Spanish, 101 00:04:24,015 --> 00:04:25,715 and there's nothing wrong with being bilingual 102 00:04:25,745 --> 00:04:26,875 spiritually as well. 103 00:04:27,155 --> 00:04:28,475 Hmm. And so I like that being able 104 00:04:28,475 --> 00:04:32,315 to see God in this way. It's a beautiful thing. 105 00:04:32,745 --> 00:04:33,875 - Yeah, for - Sure. It's 106 00:04:33,875 --> 00:04:34,875 - Helpful. 107 00:04:34,875 --> 00:04:35,955 So if, if people are listening, wanna check it out. 108 00:04:35,955 --> 00:04:37,755 Uh, I've done a few episodes on it there. 109 00:04:37,855 --> 00:04:40,115 The one that comes to mind is if you search on leading 110 00:04:40,115 --> 00:04:43,315 saints.org for title is, is Elders Quo Working, 111 00:04:43,655 --> 00:04:47,995 and we interview, uh, Steve Shields, James, a lot of the, 112 00:04:48,015 --> 00:04:49,315 the presenters here 113 00:04:49,375 --> 00:04:50,755 and people who are involved in, 114 00:04:50,855 --> 00:04:52,195 and they can give you a better idea. And you go to 115 00:04:52,265 --> 00:04:53,755 - Some of the bootcamp Hero roast. That's 116 00:04:53,755 --> 00:04:54,755 - Right. 117 00:04:54,755 --> 00:04:57,675 And then go to a warrior heart.com to get all the details. 118 00:04:57,735 --> 00:04:59,635 And, uh, hopefully we'll see him at a future one. 119 00:05:00,165 --> 00:05:03,675 - Don't delay. Uh, next one, I think is in November, 2021. 120 00:05:03,845 --> 00:05:05,835 Don't miss the opportunity. That's 121 00:05:05,835 --> 00:05:06,835 - Right. 122 00:05:06,835 --> 00:05:08,835 That's right. Well, I wanted, uh, while you're up here, 123 00:05:08,835 --> 00:05:10,235 you're originally, you live in Georgia. 124 00:05:10,415 --> 00:05:11,355 You, you're not originally 125 00:05:11,355 --> 00:05:12,275 from there, but you live in Georgia. 126 00:05:12,345 --> 00:05:14,395 - Yeah, we've been in Georgia a little over 30 years 127 00:05:14,445 --> 00:05:15,755 south, just south of Atlanta. 128 00:05:15,755 --> 00:05:16,795 Mm-Hmm. , uh, was an air. 129 00:05:16,875 --> 00:05:19,475 I was born in Utah, raised in Seattle, Washington. 130 00:05:19,815 --> 00:05:21,595 And, uh, we, my wife and I, 131 00:05:21,595 --> 00:05:23,715 after we married, moved, uh, live five years in Seattle, 132 00:05:23,895 --> 00:05:26,115 and then we've been in Atlanta for over 30 years. 133 00:05:26,175 --> 00:05:27,195 Raised our family there. 134 00:05:27,265 --> 00:05:30,155 - Nice. And you're currently serving as, uh, YSA bishop. 135 00:05:30,305 --> 00:05:32,155 Yeah. Right, Bishop. Tell, tell us about the area, 136 00:05:32,345 --> 00:05:33,755 like that sort of thing. 137 00:05:33,945 --> 00:05:36,195 - Yeah. We do not have a college 138 00:05:36,255 --> 00:05:38,675 or university that brings kids to us, rather, 139 00:05:38,725 --> 00:05:39,915 we're like a local ward 140 00:05:39,915 --> 00:05:42,595 that we serve two stakes, two family stakes. 141 00:05:43,175 --> 00:05:45,435 And, and so our kids come, 142 00:05:45,435 --> 00:05:47,875 we have more in the summer than we do in the wintertime, 143 00:05:48,415 --> 00:05:49,435 and we'll have 70 144 00:05:49,455 --> 00:05:52,115 or 80 kids attend every Sunday in the summertime. 145 00:05:52,895 --> 00:05:54,755 And, uh, it drops off a little in the fall 146 00:05:54,755 --> 00:05:55,995 as they're going off back to school, 147 00:05:56,535 --> 00:05:58,565 and then it picks back up in the, in the summer. 148 00:05:58,705 --> 00:06:00,925 That's cool. So it's a beautiful area. It's super green. 149 00:06:01,105 --> 00:06:03,205 Uh, Georgia is a very, very pretty state. 150 00:06:03,265 --> 00:06:04,365 - So you cover two stakes, 151 00:06:04,425 --> 00:06:06,645 but you are, you're under the direction 152 00:06:06,645 --> 00:06:08,245 of one of those stake presidents, right? Correct. 153 00:06:08,245 --> 00:06:10,245 - Do you want me to name names of, uh, of the stakes? 154 00:06:10,245 --> 00:06:11,565 Does it matter? Oh, whatever. Okay. Yeah. 155 00:06:11,565 --> 00:06:15,125 Well, we're, I'm the Fayetteville, Georgia YSA ward. 156 00:06:15,575 --> 00:06:17,405 We're in the Fayetteville, Georgia stake, 157 00:06:17,425 --> 00:06:20,325 but we cover also most of the Newnan Georgia stake, 158 00:06:20,325 --> 00:06:22,885 which was just created, uh, less than a year ago. Yeah. 159 00:06:23,065 --> 00:06:24,125 - So we've gotten to know each other, 160 00:06:24,125 --> 00:06:26,045 just the various boot camps we've been at together. 161 00:06:26,225 --> 00:06:28,365 And, uh, I've learned a little bit about your story, 162 00:06:28,385 --> 00:06:30,485 not completely, but we got to drive up here. 163 00:06:31,145 --> 00:06:33,885 And I heard, uh, you reached out to me the last few weeks, 164 00:06:33,965 --> 00:06:35,045 went on and shared with me 165 00:06:35,045 --> 00:06:36,725 that you'd recently been called as, as a bishop. 166 00:06:36,905 --> 00:06:39,605 And, and I know you have, uh, an interesting past. 167 00:06:39,605 --> 00:06:43,565 Maybe, maybe, uh, uh, I dunno if I would say it atypical or, 168 00:06:43,565 --> 00:06:45,165 or, or different, but, uh, you know, we're all, 169 00:06:45,335 --> 00:06:48,565 we're all on a journey of, of redemption and sinning and, 170 00:06:49,105 --> 00:06:51,285 and, you know, turn into towards Christ. 171 00:06:51,305 --> 00:06:54,005 But sometimes we stigmatize some of those pasts. 172 00:06:54,005 --> 00:06:56,285 Sometimes we think, yeah, Christ, you know, he heals all, 173 00:06:56,345 --> 00:06:58,205 and for forgiveness is real, 174 00:06:58,305 --> 00:07:02,045 but maybe certain people shouldn't end up in a high profile, 175 00:07:02,385 --> 00:07:03,885 you know, influential callings. 176 00:07:04,305 --> 00:07:06,045 But I, I really wanna tear that stigma down 177 00:07:06,045 --> 00:07:08,245 because I've met so many people who I thought, you know, 178 00:07:08,245 --> 00:07:10,365 even people who've lost their membership 179 00:07:10,545 --> 00:07:12,805 or their membership been removed, and they've come back 180 00:07:12,805 --> 00:07:16,285 and I think, man, nobody better would be a bishop than, 181 00:07:16,305 --> 00:07:19,725 you know, I could list, uh, the names of men like that. 182 00:07:19,865 --> 00:07:22,125 And, uh, a lot of times that's not, uh, 183 00:07:22,125 --> 00:07:23,845 that's not an option, or it, 184 00:07:23,845 --> 00:07:25,285 it isn't, we don't let it be an option. 185 00:07:25,345 --> 00:07:27,765 So let's go back to the beginning of your story. 186 00:07:28,185 --> 00:07:31,205 Uh, where, where does it begin? What's, what was the moment? 187 00:07:31,635 --> 00:07:34,205 - Well, I would remind the listeners that, uh, 188 00:07:34,205 --> 00:07:36,645 you should never trust a skinny cook . 189 00:07:36,705 --> 00:07:39,845 And, uh, so I would never trust a, a two holy bishop. 190 00:07:39,985 --> 00:07:41,565 That's, uh, that's what I'll say, . 191 00:07:42,165 --> 00:07:45,135 None of what I say is a, is about blame. 192 00:07:45,915 --> 00:07:47,775 Um, I'm gonna talk about my parents a little bit 193 00:07:47,795 --> 00:07:50,135 and how that created some wounds in me growing up 194 00:07:50,195 --> 00:07:52,815 and what that did to me, and how I reacted. 195 00:07:52,955 --> 00:07:55,815 And they're still alive. And this is not to blame them. 196 00:07:55,815 --> 00:07:57,735 They were good people that did the best they could, 197 00:07:58,315 --> 00:07:59,375 but it wasn't enough. 198 00:08:00,195 --> 00:08:02,215 And that's probably God's plan, is 199 00:08:02,215 --> 00:08:04,615 that we have imperfect people around us, so 200 00:08:04,615 --> 00:08:06,975 that we will seek him and, and not seek them. 201 00:08:07,035 --> 00:08:09,575 But as I identify my wounds, it's, it's not 202 00:08:09,575 --> 00:08:10,655 to blame anybody. 203 00:08:10,805 --> 00:08:13,335 It's just so that I could identify 'em, examine them, 204 00:08:13,555 --> 00:08:15,175 and actually have more love and compassion 205 00:08:15,175 --> 00:08:17,415 for them than I did in the midst 206 00:08:17,595 --> 00:08:19,575 of my afflictions, if you will. Yeah. 207 00:08:19,575 --> 00:08:20,695 - You know, that, I appreciate mentioning that 208 00:08:20,695 --> 00:08:22,695 because it's, you know, there are, 209 00:08:22,695 --> 00:08:24,095 there are some tragedies out there. 210 00:08:24,095 --> 00:08:25,415 There are some abusive parents 211 00:08:25,555 --> 00:08:27,815 and people that really made some spiritual wounds that, 212 00:08:28,765 --> 00:08:30,045 I mean, nobody would get out of some 213 00:08:30,045 --> 00:08:31,685 of those relationships without spiritual wounds. 214 00:08:32,125 --> 00:08:34,005 A lot of times it's the wounds I, 215 00:08:34,165 --> 00:08:36,845 mortality people doing the, with their best intentions, 216 00:08:37,435 --> 00:08:38,605 help, trying to help somebody. 217 00:08:38,605 --> 00:08:40,445 And they end up, uh, you know, maybe taking, 218 00:08:40,445 --> 00:08:41,525 pushing someone the, the 219 00:08:41,525 --> 00:08:43,005 direction they didn't mean to push 'em. Yeah. 220 00:08:43,275 --> 00:08:44,925 - Yeah. Everybody's got problems. 221 00:08:45,105 --> 00:08:47,405 And we inflict those on everybody around us. 222 00:08:47,505 --> 00:08:50,365 And, and the job is, is, uh, not to blame anybody, 223 00:08:50,385 --> 00:08:51,605 but to understand them. 224 00:08:51,745 --> 00:08:53,085 And only then can we process 225 00:08:53,085 --> 00:08:54,245 something I think can move forward. 226 00:08:54,585 --> 00:08:58,365 So, as a young kid, uh, we, I was born in Provo, Utah. 227 00:08:58,365 --> 00:09:00,285 We moved to Seattle when I was about six years old. 228 00:09:01,195 --> 00:09:02,905 There was a lot of stress and confusion 229 00:09:02,905 --> 00:09:06,365 and chaos in our home, A lot going on between mom and dad. 230 00:09:06,745 --> 00:09:10,085 Dad in, in the mid sixties, like 1965 or so. 231 00:09:10,085 --> 00:09:13,725 He was a 100,000 miler for United Airlines, 232 00:09:14,055 --> 00:09:15,205 which today's nothing. 233 00:09:15,345 --> 00:09:17,765 But that was a big deal in the mid sixties. 234 00:09:17,985 --> 00:09:19,725 He traveled a lot. He was gone a lot. 235 00:09:19,785 --> 00:09:22,765 And, and so he was absent. So mom raised six kids. 236 00:09:23,695 --> 00:09:26,755 And I think that in dad's absence, mom tried 237 00:09:26,755 --> 00:09:28,595 to create strong emotional bonds 238 00:09:28,815 --> 00:09:30,355 to get support from us kids. 239 00:09:31,165 --> 00:09:32,755 There was no sexual abuse or, 240 00:09:33,015 --> 00:09:34,595 or beatings or anything like that. 241 00:09:34,655 --> 00:09:37,435 But I think there was an emotional incest, 242 00:09:37,435 --> 00:09:38,675 is the way that I describe it. 243 00:09:38,905 --> 00:09:40,955 - Yeah. And that's a, I mean, that's a clinical term. Is it? 244 00:09:40,955 --> 00:09:42,195 I mean, a therapist will use that term. 245 00:09:42,345 --> 00:09:43,675 - I've, I've read one book about it. 246 00:09:43,715 --> 00:09:46,075 Nobody's, nobody's told me that or diagnosed me with it. 247 00:09:46,075 --> 00:09:47,195 That's my self-diagnosis. 248 00:09:47,195 --> 00:09:48,835 - And it's sort of a shocking term, but basically mean 249 00:09:48,835 --> 00:09:51,395 that your mother was turning to you for 250 00:09:51,395 --> 00:09:52,715 that emotional support, 251 00:09:53,065 --> 00:09:54,875 - Support that she needed and didn't get Yeah. 252 00:09:54,875 --> 00:09:57,355 In, in the, in the relationship there. Yeah. Yeah. 253 00:09:57,815 --> 00:10:00,955 So from the outside, six kids, we were good looking 254 00:10:00,975 --> 00:10:03,755 and smart and talented, and, and we were pretty normal or, 255 00:10:03,855 --> 00:10:06,755 or maybe normal plus from the outside. 256 00:10:07,295 --> 00:10:08,755 But at home there was a lot of turmoil. 257 00:10:08,935 --> 00:10:11,675 And, um, there was, there was, there was a lot 258 00:10:11,675 --> 00:10:12,675 - Going on. 259 00:10:12,675 --> 00:10:13,395 And this is, I mean, from the outside looking 260 00:10:13,415 --> 00:10:14,555 in, pretty traditional latter 261 00:10:14,815 --> 00:10:15,815 - Family. 262 00:10:15,815 --> 00:10:16,595 Sure. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. 263 00:10:16,775 --> 00:10:18,315 Church every Sunday, everybody doing 264 00:10:18,315 --> 00:10:19,915 what they're supposed to do for the most part. 265 00:10:20,025 --> 00:10:22,715 Yeah. Nobody went to jail, so . 266 00:10:22,985 --> 00:10:25,435 - Yeah. Anyway, - But internally, I didn't know how 267 00:10:25,535 --> 00:10:29,275 to handle these emotional difficulties and these triggers. 268 00:10:29,615 --> 00:10:33,315 It was hard. And so at a, at a very young age, uh, I began 269 00:10:33,315 --> 00:10:36,595 to isolate, feel shame over not being proud of who I was 270 00:10:36,595 --> 00:10:37,635 and who they were and stuff. 271 00:10:37,635 --> 00:10:40,835 And about 10 years old friend showed me a Playboy magazine. 272 00:10:41,175 --> 00:10:42,515 It was the greatest thing I'd ever seen. 273 00:10:43,015 --> 00:10:44,475 For me, it was like snorting cocaine. 274 00:10:44,665 --> 00:10:46,115 Instantly I was hooked. 275 00:10:46,355 --> 00:10:48,275 I knew that I'd do whatever it took for as long 276 00:10:48,275 --> 00:10:51,515 as it took me to continue to get that feeling. 277 00:10:51,875 --> 00:10:54,235 I know that not everybody that drinks becomes an alcoholic, 278 00:10:54,235 --> 00:10:55,995 and not everybody that looks at porn Right. 279 00:10:56,055 --> 00:10:58,875 Um, becomes a porn addict. But for me, it was instant. 280 00:10:59,195 --> 00:11:01,395 I, at, I'm 10 years old, I'm a cub scout, you know? Yeah. 281 00:11:01,735 --> 00:11:04,715 And, um, I have no idea what's happening to me. Yeah. 282 00:11:05,255 --> 00:11:09,435 So I used to visit a friend and we'd ride through the woods, 283 00:11:09,455 --> 00:11:12,155 and under a log was hidden, a tide box. 284 00:11:12,335 --> 00:11:15,315 And I, I discovered there was a stash of Playboy magazines. 285 00:11:15,335 --> 00:11:16,595 - You didn't know whose it was. It was just there. 286 00:11:16,595 --> 00:11:17,675 - Yeah. It was just there. Oh, wow. 287 00:11:17,675 --> 00:11:18,755 Uh, he found, it showed me. 288 00:11:18,855 --> 00:11:21,595 And, and so I'd visit the tide box often, 289 00:11:22,135 --> 00:11:25,715 and my shame got deeper and deeper, and it increased. 290 00:11:25,975 --> 00:11:28,875 And, and then doing the addiction became a way 291 00:11:28,875 --> 00:11:29,955 to escape the shame. 292 00:11:30,535 --> 00:11:32,595 So I don't know if you know which comes first, the chicken 293 00:11:32,595 --> 00:11:35,035 or the egg, is it shamer or the addiction? 294 00:11:35,355 --> 00:11:37,475 Interesting. But boy, they, they cohabitate 295 00:11:37,495 --> 00:11:39,275 and they, they really promote each other. And 296 00:11:39,275 --> 00:11:41,475 - Talk, talk me through that, that the initial shame, like, 297 00:11:41,475 --> 00:11:42,635 because you were hearing, 298 00:11:43,025 --> 00:11:44,395 were you hearing messages at church? 299 00:11:44,395 --> 00:11:45,475 Like, you shouldn't look at these things, 300 00:11:45,475 --> 00:11:47,555 but you were drawn to it, like it wasn't that Oh, 301 00:11:47,715 --> 00:11:48,715 - Absolutely. 302 00:11:48,715 --> 00:11:49,035 Yeah. It was, it was forbidden. 303 00:11:49,035 --> 00:11:52,515 It was the wrong thing to do it. I, I was confused. 304 00:11:52,675 --> 00:11:54,045 'cause I had had friends and I used to babysit 305 00:11:54,185 --> 00:11:56,205 for some leaders, and I would see Playboy 306 00:11:56,405 --> 00:11:57,725 magazines in, in their home. 307 00:11:57,725 --> 00:11:59,445 And I was confused about some of this, 308 00:11:59,465 --> 00:12:01,005 but I knew that it was wrong, 309 00:12:01,195 --> 00:12:02,525 that I wasn't supposed to be doing it. 310 00:12:02,555 --> 00:12:04,485 - Yeah. Yeah. And it's more of the, uh, 311 00:12:04,675 --> 00:12:06,805 that you knew it was wrong, but you wanted it, so, 312 00:12:07,485 --> 00:12:08,285 - Absolutely. Oh, yeah. And that's where 313 00:12:08,285 --> 00:12:09,845 - The shame just, oh - Yeah. 314 00:12:09,885 --> 00:12:13,365 I was, I was outta control again. I started at 10 years old. 315 00:12:13,655 --> 00:12:15,205 There was, I didn't know what to do. 316 00:12:15,405 --> 00:12:17,445 I was, I could not regulate my emotions 317 00:12:17,445 --> 00:12:18,965 or my desires at that point. Yeah. 318 00:12:19,345 --> 00:12:20,965 - Wow. - So that continued. 319 00:12:20,965 --> 00:12:24,885 And I remember about 14 years old, I was reading a TV guide. 320 00:12:24,885 --> 00:12:27,365 You remember those? Yeah. I remember, I'm born in 1958. 321 00:12:27,425 --> 00:12:30,405 So as, uh, early seventies, I'm about 14. 322 00:12:30,585 --> 00:12:32,405 I'm reading a TV guide about some rockstar, 323 00:12:32,405 --> 00:12:34,165 and he's describing his heroin addiction, 324 00:12:34,545 --> 00:12:37,005 the addiction cycle, the guilt, the craving, the, 325 00:12:37,025 --> 00:12:38,805 you know, and the acting out. 326 00:12:38,905 --> 00:12:41,405 And I realized by reading his heroin story, 327 00:12:42,005 --> 00:12:43,685 I am addicted to pornography. 328 00:12:44,065 --> 00:12:45,845 And that word had never been put to it to him. 329 00:12:46,025 --> 00:12:47,645 And I should say, said I'm 14, 330 00:12:48,385 --> 00:12:50,445 my being ordained a deacon was delayed. 331 00:12:50,495 --> 00:12:51,525 Gimme time to repent. 332 00:12:51,525 --> 00:12:54,205 Like being, I was open with my bishops being ordained, 333 00:12:54,245 --> 00:12:56,725 a teacher, a priest, even a elder 334 00:12:57,305 --> 00:12:58,965 was delayed in order to give me, 335 00:12:59,505 --> 00:13:02,045 - Was it hard for you the first time to, to open up or, 336 00:13:02,105 --> 00:13:03,805 and share that with your bishop, or did you share it 337 00:13:03,805 --> 00:13:05,125 with your parents, or, uh, 338 00:13:05,125 --> 00:13:07,765 - It didn't talk about, I got caught by my parents a time 339 00:13:07,765 --> 00:13:10,205 or two over the years, but I didn't share it with them. 340 00:13:10,545 --> 00:13:11,685 No. Mm-Hmm. . But I 341 00:13:11,685 --> 00:13:12,725 was pretty open with my bishop. 342 00:13:13,325 --> 00:13:15,885 I wanted help, and I didn't know what the source was. 343 00:13:15,905 --> 00:13:17,205 And of course, good bishops, 344 00:13:17,705 --> 00:13:20,925 all they could say at the time was, oh, well just stop doing 345 00:13:20,925 --> 00:13:22,205 that, and then your depression will go away. 346 00:13:22,205 --> 00:13:23,205 Oh, just stop doing that and 347 00:13:23,205 --> 00:13:24,205 you'll feel better about yourself. 348 00:13:24,345 --> 00:13:25,205 Oh, just stop doing that. 349 00:13:26,035 --> 00:13:27,485 - Like, as if the porn was the source. 350 00:13:27,835 --> 00:13:29,445 - Exactly. Like the porn was the source. 351 00:13:29,675 --> 00:13:30,725 Like that was the problem. 352 00:13:30,725 --> 00:13:32,085 And of course, that's one of the things I've come 353 00:13:32,085 --> 00:13:33,965 to learn is porn's not the issue. Porn's a symptom. 354 00:13:33,965 --> 00:13:35,525 - You know, it may like it stimulate 355 00:13:35,525 --> 00:13:36,965 that addiction cycle to keep going. 356 00:13:37,015 --> 00:13:40,005 - Right, right, right. But so I thought, well, dub bishop, 357 00:13:40,245 --> 00:13:42,205 I, I never thought of not doing 358 00:13:42,205 --> 00:13:43,925 that anymore. You know, 359 00:13:44,495 --> 00:13:45,495 - Every day. 360 00:13:45,495 --> 00:13:48,125 - Right. Gee, what a good idea. That's a novel idea. Yeah. 361 00:13:48,465 --> 00:13:51,205 - So, and this is back in the, in the early sixties. 362 00:13:51,555 --> 00:13:54,885 - Yeah. Yeah. So late sixties, early seventies. Yeah. 363 00:13:54,885 --> 00:13:57,245 - I mean, I bet most bishops just, I mean, 364 00:13:57,245 --> 00:13:58,845 there's nothing, no perspective. 365 00:13:58,925 --> 00:14:00,565 I mean, people weren't openly talking 366 00:14:00,565 --> 00:14:01,565 - About this stuff. 367 00:14:01,565 --> 00:14:03,565 There's no discussion. The idea of quote addiction, 368 00:14:03,665 --> 00:14:05,165 it was just, uh, it was just weakness. 369 00:14:05,185 --> 00:14:08,445 It was just bad habits. It was just, uh, you know, uh, 370 00:14:08,445 --> 00:14:09,725 compulsive behavior maybe. 371 00:14:09,825 --> 00:14:13,085 But there was no real discussion of addiction in conference 372 00:14:13,085 --> 00:14:14,285 or in church meetings 373 00:14:14,285 --> 00:14:15,285 - Or anything like that. 374 00:14:15,285 --> 00:14:15,925 And again, going back to the best 375 00:14:15,925 --> 00:14:17,525 intentions, your bishop Oh yeah. Said 376 00:14:17,525 --> 00:14:18,525 - Those things. 377 00:14:18,525 --> 00:14:19,605 Oh, yeah. Good people. Well, great people. And I love them. 378 00:14:19,905 --> 00:14:22,485 And they, they, they give the best guidance they had. 379 00:14:22,485 --> 00:14:25,965 Mm-Hmm. . But it wasn't good enough. Yeah. So 380 00:14:26,675 --> 00:14:27,675 - It's a mission. 381 00:14:27,835 --> 00:14:28,885 Yeah. So you get up to your mission, 382 00:14:28,885 --> 00:14:30,445 everything just gets pushed back, know, 383 00:14:30,445 --> 00:14:31,445 - Advancements, everything. 384 00:14:31,445 --> 00:14:32,925 The email, my mission call, I screwed up again. 385 00:14:32,925 --> 00:14:34,485 Shortly after I had my mission call, 386 00:14:34,485 --> 00:14:36,125 before I was supposed to report, went talk to the bishop. 387 00:14:36,185 --> 00:14:38,125 He called to state president, they called Salt Lake. 388 00:14:38,555 --> 00:14:40,365 Well, if he can just hang on until he reports 389 00:14:40,365 --> 00:14:41,845 to the MTC, we'll still let him go. 390 00:14:42,465 --> 00:14:45,245 And so I go on my mission and, and where'd you go? 391 00:14:45,515 --> 00:14:49,885 Argentina. Okay. Cordoba, Argentina, RG 392 00:14:53,355 --> 00:14:54,365 best mission in the world. 393 00:14:54,435 --> 00:14:57,525 Awesome. Had a great mission president, great companions. 394 00:14:58,385 --> 00:15:01,965 And stayed clean for most of my mission, probably 20 months. 395 00:15:02,195 --> 00:15:05,005 Yeah. And then in the end fell on my mission. And for me, 396 00:15:05,005 --> 00:15:07,125 - When you say stay clean, what do you mean with pornography 397 00:15:07,125 --> 00:15:08,125 - Or masturbation? 398 00:15:08,125 --> 00:15:10,325 I, I didn't seek pornography. I didn't masturbate. Yep. 399 00:15:10,505 --> 00:15:11,645 And, and so I, 400 00:15:12,425 --> 00:15:15,845 but then having that occur again at the end of my mission, 401 00:15:15,845 --> 00:15:18,245 then that made my entire mission a failure for me. 402 00:15:18,685 --> 00:15:21,325 Hmm. Increased the shame, increase the, the 403 00:15:21,545 --> 00:15:23,565 - Man you just hear the adversary's message in that. 404 00:15:23,565 --> 00:15:25,485 Right. Like the rest of the 20 months, 405 00:15:26,255 --> 00:15:27,285 flush it down the toilet. 406 00:15:27,285 --> 00:15:28,965 Right. It doesn't, yeah. Wow. Doesn't count. Yeah. 407 00:15:28,965 --> 00:15:30,605 That's how powerful shame is. Oh, yeah. 408 00:15:31,125 --> 00:15:32,125 - Absolutely. None of that counted. 409 00:15:32,225 --> 00:15:34,325 And part of that's, you know, our LDS culture 410 00:15:34,425 --> 00:15:39,005 and our misunderstanding of, you know, all the sins return, 411 00:15:39,105 --> 00:15:40,365 if we go back to our Oh yeah. 412 00:15:40,365 --> 00:15:41,365 Back. That's not what that means. 413 00:15:41,505 --> 00:15:43,445 But, but I didn't know that at the time. Yeah. 414 00:15:43,665 --> 00:15:45,805 So I came home, I remember even telling the mission prep. 415 00:15:45,805 --> 00:15:46,965 Well, I mean, I came home one time, 416 00:15:46,965 --> 00:15:48,565 but I remember telling the mission President, 417 00:15:48,665 --> 00:15:50,485 I'm not even gonna ask you for a temp recommend. 418 00:15:50,785 --> 00:15:52,125 And I, I told him what I'd done. 419 00:15:52,145 --> 00:15:54,205 And, and he said, well, that's up to you. 420 00:15:54,505 --> 00:15:57,075 And, uh, so I come home, 421 00:15:57,095 --> 00:16:00,035 my shame's deeper than ever. And I, because 422 00:16:00,035 --> 00:16:01,235 - You can't even keep it together when you're a 423 00:16:01,235 --> 00:16:02,355 missionary. Right. Like, that's the shame. 424 00:16:02,405 --> 00:16:04,635 - Right. You must really, really be a bad person. 425 00:16:05,255 --> 00:16:06,755 And see, that's the message I'm getting all 426 00:16:06,755 --> 00:16:09,075 through these first 20, 21 years of my life, is that, 427 00:16:09,095 --> 00:16:10,275 uh, everybody else is normal. 428 00:16:10,455 --> 00:16:11,795 I'm the only one that's suffering these things. 429 00:16:11,895 --> 00:16:14,155 If, you know, the classic, if you knew 430 00:16:14,155 --> 00:16:15,635 who I was, you couldn't love me. 431 00:16:16,755 --> 00:16:17,935 I'm a terrible person. 432 00:16:18,655 --> 00:16:21,975 I must be like the Jews that spat on Christ. 433 00:16:22,955 --> 00:16:26,175 I'm the whited sical with the, the, the bones 434 00:16:26,355 --> 00:16:27,735 inside and the rotting flesh. 435 00:16:27,935 --> 00:16:29,535 I st. Stink. I'm horrible. 436 00:16:30,395 --> 00:16:31,775 And, and nobody else is like this. 437 00:16:31,835 --> 00:16:34,855 And if they knew who I was, they couldn't love me. Yeah. 438 00:16:35,315 --> 00:16:36,895 And I discovered I didn't love myself. 439 00:16:37,335 --> 00:16:39,655 I figured I must hate the savior. I figured he must hate me. 440 00:16:40,275 --> 00:16:43,965 Why else would I do this if I wasn't one of those 441 00:16:44,035 --> 00:16:47,365 that would have, you know, mocked him and stuff? 442 00:16:47,565 --> 00:16:48,605 'cause I felt like I was mocking. 443 00:16:48,605 --> 00:16:50,565 - Right. Yeah. When, man, I shouldn't do this. 444 00:16:50,565 --> 00:16:52,445 And I know I shouldn't, but I still return to it. 445 00:16:52,555 --> 00:16:54,565 It's like I'm slapping him in the face. Right. Right, right. 446 00:16:55,235 --> 00:16:57,005 - It's kinda like, uh, mark Twain 447 00:16:57,005 --> 00:16:58,205 said, it's easy to quit smoking. 448 00:16:58,235 --> 00:16:59,845 I've done it hundreds of times. . Right. 449 00:17:00,185 --> 00:17:01,965 You know, so I'd, I had quit, uh, 450 00:17:01,965 --> 00:17:03,005 pornography every day, every day. 451 00:17:03,005 --> 00:17:05,365 Hundreds of times I swore it'd be the last I even had a, 452 00:17:05,485 --> 00:17:06,925 a well-meaning home teacher say, 453 00:17:07,115 --> 00:17:10,445 have you ever asked the Lord that if you ever did it again, 454 00:17:10,445 --> 00:17:12,045 that he would take your life. Oh, 455 00:17:12,045 --> 00:17:13,045 - Wow. 456 00:17:13,045 --> 00:17:15,485 - Okay. That was unhelpful. . But 457 00:17:16,055 --> 00:17:17,685 - Again, best intentions somewhere. 458 00:17:18,175 --> 00:17:20,085 - Right? I guess. No, no. Absolutely. 459 00:17:20,345 --> 00:17:23,565 And again, I, and I never wanted, I never tried 460 00:17:23,565 --> 00:17:24,565 or wanted to commit suicide, 461 00:17:24,565 --> 00:17:26,605 but there were many times when I did wish I was dead. 462 00:17:26,725 --> 00:17:28,645 I would just wish I didn't have to deal with it. Yeah. 463 00:17:28,765 --> 00:17:32,245 Couldn't do it. So I had bishops tell me, Hey, no problem. 464 00:17:32,245 --> 00:17:33,925 Once you get married, he can have real sex. 465 00:17:34,115 --> 00:17:35,845 Then a pornography won't be an attraction. 466 00:17:36,425 --> 00:17:38,845 And then later after marriage, had a state president trying 467 00:17:38,845 --> 00:17:41,085 to work with us, saying that, well, if you had sex every day 468 00:17:41,085 --> 00:17:43,445 with Andrea, your wife would, that would solve it. 469 00:17:43,445 --> 00:17:45,325 Right. Again, best intentions, 470 00:17:45,345 --> 00:17:47,685 but no clue about what's going on. 471 00:17:47,795 --> 00:17:50,205 Yeah. So we got engaged, 472 00:17:50,505 --> 00:17:54,425 and then my problem surfaced again. 473 00:17:54,565 --> 00:17:56,105 You know, I'd gone months and months without, 474 00:17:56,125 --> 00:17:57,305 and then my problem surfaced again 475 00:17:57,305 --> 00:17:59,265 because it was never solved. Yeah. 476 00:17:59,265 --> 00:18:01,025 - Yeah. Right. And did you discuss it 477 00:18:01,025 --> 00:18:02,345 with your wife before you got married? 478 00:18:02,775 --> 00:18:03,905 - Well, we delayed our marriage. 479 00:18:04,645 --> 00:18:06,665 - So more delays - I caught. Yep. More delays. 480 00:18:07,205 --> 00:18:10,265 Life's on hold. So I called, I was, I was scheduled 481 00:18:10,265 --> 00:18:11,305 to go visit her at Thanksgiving. 482 00:18:11,365 --> 00:18:12,705 We were supposed to get married in December. 483 00:18:13,105 --> 00:18:14,865 I was living out west, she was in North Carolina. 484 00:18:15,285 --> 00:18:17,505 And I called on the phone, cancel, 485 00:18:17,565 --> 00:18:18,665 you know, is pre-cell phone. 486 00:18:18,665 --> 00:18:20,065 So I couldn't text her the 487 00:18:20,065 --> 00:18:21,265 cancellation of our wedding . 488 00:18:21,265 --> 00:18:24,585 So I called her and said, Hey, I, it's just not gonna work. 489 00:18:24,935 --> 00:18:25,985 Talk to you when I get there. 490 00:18:25,985 --> 00:18:28,105 And again, more shame, more embarrassment. 491 00:18:28,285 --> 00:18:30,945 And so when I got to her over Thanksgiving, then we sat 492 00:18:30,945 --> 00:18:33,385 and talked, and I told her everything, told her, uh, 493 00:18:33,385 --> 00:18:34,465 everything that I knew about it. 494 00:18:35,125 --> 00:18:36,465 She and I agreed with the bishop 495 00:18:36,575 --> 00:18:38,745 that once we got married, it wouldn't be a problem. 496 00:18:38,915 --> 00:18:40,425 Right. Yeah. Because why would you want 497 00:18:40,535 --> 00:18:42,105 pornography if you had real sex? 498 00:18:42,125 --> 00:18:43,705 And we had no idea. 499 00:18:43,925 --> 00:18:48,305 But, so we reset a date and, and delayed a couple of months, 500 00:18:48,445 --> 00:18:50,265 and got married, uh, the end of February. 501 00:18:50,285 --> 00:18:52,665 And, and life was, life was gonna be good. 502 00:18:52,865 --> 00:18:54,025 I was gonna be normal then. Mm-Hmm. 503 00:18:54,065 --> 00:18:55,905 , you're free. I was free. It was over. 504 00:18:55,905 --> 00:18:58,105 It was over. I came to see my life. 505 00:18:58,205 --> 00:18:59,625 And then of course that wasn't true 506 00:18:59,625 --> 00:19:02,905 because pornography has nothing to do with sex. 507 00:19:04,135 --> 00:19:05,505 Non-addicts won't understand that. 508 00:19:05,565 --> 00:19:08,305 But the best analogy I've come up with over the years is 509 00:19:08,305 --> 00:19:12,905 that porn has no more to do with sex than alcoholism has 510 00:19:12,905 --> 00:19:13,945 to do with thirst. 511 00:19:14,885 --> 00:19:18,105 An alcoholic does not drink because he's thirsty. 512 00:19:18,765 --> 00:19:20,385 He drinks 'cause he is underlying issues. 513 00:19:20,485 --> 00:19:22,305 And a porn addict doesn't look at porn 514 00:19:22,655 --> 00:19:25,065 because he needs more sex, or he needs better sex, 515 00:19:25,065 --> 00:19:26,225 or he needs a different kind of sex, 516 00:19:26,225 --> 00:19:27,585 or he needs other sex partners. 517 00:19:27,665 --> 00:19:28,745 A porn addict looks at sex 518 00:19:29,045 --> 00:19:30,745 for the same reason that an alcoholic drinks. 519 00:19:30,765 --> 00:19:32,385 And that's because of unmet needs. 520 00:19:32,865 --> 00:19:34,705 I had a counselor tell me 20 years ago, 521 00:19:34,705 --> 00:19:35,865 before I was ready to hear it, that 522 00:19:36,285 --> 00:19:37,425 he only knew of two ways. 523 00:19:37,645 --> 00:19:38,825 And this illustrates that point. 524 00:19:38,885 --> 00:19:41,905 He only knew of two ways to get rid of an addiction, 525 00:19:42,285 --> 00:19:44,385 and one was to trade it for another addiction. 526 00:19:45,245 --> 00:19:47,505 And he said, we see that a lot. I don't recommend it. 527 00:19:48,125 --> 00:19:51,465 But the other way was to honestly work a 12 step program. 528 00:19:52,485 --> 00:19:54,825 And it was through that and that kind of, that analogy that, 529 00:19:54,825 --> 00:19:57,185 and it's true, different addictions have 530 00:19:57,185 --> 00:19:58,305 different consequences. 531 00:19:58,485 --> 00:20:02,985 Mm-Hmm. Addictions are the same, whether it's cutting porn, 532 00:20:03,035 --> 00:20:06,705 anger, gambling, hair pulling, having to be right porn, 533 00:20:06,925 --> 00:20:07,985 it, it doesn't matter. 534 00:20:08,055 --> 00:20:11,025 Alcohol, drugs, it doesn't matter what the addiction is, 535 00:20:11,125 --> 00:20:14,705 the root cause and the root solution is the same, 536 00:20:15,375 --> 00:20:18,545 even though consequences are different sometimes. Mm-Hmm. 537 00:20:18,585 --> 00:20:21,345 - . Yeah. Wow. So, uh, how soon 538 00:20:21,345 --> 00:20:22,705 after your marriage did you realize 539 00:20:23,835 --> 00:20:25,465 maybe you had some slip ups or whatever? 540 00:20:25,465 --> 00:20:27,025 Did you think, oh, wow, this didn't go away? 541 00:20:27,365 --> 00:20:28,425 - You know, I don't remember exactly, 542 00:20:28,485 --> 00:20:29,985 but it, it would've only been a couple months. 543 00:20:30,015 --> 00:20:31,985 Yeah. And, and terrible shame 544 00:20:32,005 --> 00:20:33,345 of course, uh, associated with that. 545 00:20:33,505 --> 00:20:36,625 I confessed multiple times to my wife through the years. 546 00:20:36,765 --> 00:20:39,145 She also caught me a couple of times through the years. 547 00:20:39,295 --> 00:20:41,585 I've, you know, left a magazine around 548 00:20:41,585 --> 00:20:42,625 or something stupid like that. 549 00:20:42,625 --> 00:20:44,705 Mm-Hmm. . And, and she says, 550 00:20:44,745 --> 00:20:45,865 I think you wanted to get caught. 551 00:20:46,085 --> 00:20:47,805 And maybe I did, but I still wasn't ready 552 00:20:47,905 --> 00:20:50,045 to be, to be healed. 553 00:20:50,245 --> 00:20:52,125 I didn't, I didn't understand the difference 554 00:20:52,125 --> 00:20:54,125 between sobriety and recovery. 555 00:20:54,445 --> 00:20:56,485 I thought that, you know, sobriety just not doing 556 00:20:56,505 --> 00:20:57,805 it is what I was after. 557 00:20:58,345 --> 00:21:01,445 And I didn't realize that there was healing and healing 558 00:21:01,505 --> 00:21:03,445 and recovery available to me. 559 00:21:03,565 --> 00:21:05,725 I thought all there was was maybe sobriety. Yeah. 560 00:21:05,725 --> 00:21:07,045 - And that's really the pitfall. Right. 561 00:21:07,055 --> 00:21:10,005 Especially as a, a church leader, you get so much in 562 00:21:10,005 --> 00:21:11,485 that effort of, well, 563 00:21:11,485 --> 00:21:13,045 let's just get the behavior under control. 564 00:21:13,095 --> 00:21:14,365 Right. And then, then we'll worry 565 00:21:14,365 --> 00:21:15,405 about the healing or Right. 566 00:21:15,585 --> 00:21:17,565 Or once the behavior's going, like your bishop said earlier, 567 00:21:17,565 --> 00:21:19,925 that's the, that's doing the, the hurting. So be 568 00:21:19,925 --> 00:21:20,885 - Clean for a month, be clean for 569 00:21:20,885 --> 00:21:21,725 three months, and then we'll go. 570 00:21:21,825 --> 00:21:24,125 But you've never resolved the wounds 571 00:21:24,385 --> 00:21:26,325 and the hurting that was underneath in the first place. 572 00:21:26,325 --> 00:21:27,925 Mm-Hmm. my shame was never addressed. 573 00:21:28,505 --> 00:21:31,405 My fears were never addressed. All these years. 574 00:21:32,145 --> 00:21:34,125 I'm 62 now, and I'm still just a little 575 00:21:34,145 --> 00:21:35,285 boy that wants to be loved. 576 00:21:35,475 --> 00:21:38,165 Yeah. I wanted some control. I wanted some love. 577 00:21:38,325 --> 00:21:40,205 I wanted, I wanted to be accepted. 578 00:21:40,945 --> 00:21:43,725 And porn, any addiction gives you a certain amount 579 00:21:43,825 --> 00:21:45,285 of control, a certain amount. 580 00:21:45,305 --> 00:21:48,125 You know, if I'm depressed, I can elevate my mood. 581 00:21:48,125 --> 00:21:51,325 If, if my mood, if I'm too high, you know, high in a mood, 582 00:21:51,405 --> 00:21:52,485 I can suppress my mood. 583 00:21:52,505 --> 00:21:54,205 You know, addiction does that for you. 584 00:21:54,545 --> 00:21:55,605 We do addictions because 585 00:21:56,145 --> 00:21:58,045 for a very short period of time, they work. And 586 00:21:58,045 --> 00:21:59,685 - You don't have to look at the, the wounding 587 00:21:59,685 --> 00:22:00,845 that's happened in your life, this 588 00:22:01,005 --> 00:22:02,245 virtual wounding or the hurt. 589 00:22:02,255 --> 00:22:05,365 Right. When you can just control that and numb out. Right. 590 00:22:05,365 --> 00:22:06,725 That's right. That's whether, whether that numbing means 591 00:22:07,005 --> 00:22:08,205 bringing you up or whether the numb 592 00:22:08,235 --> 00:22:09,725 numbing means bring you down. Right. 593 00:22:09,725 --> 00:22:11,525 - Right, right. And every time you do it, of course, 594 00:22:11,525 --> 00:22:13,165 then you're creating new wounds for yourself. 595 00:22:13,345 --> 00:22:16,325 Mm. And you're creating new guilt and new shame and, 596 00:22:16,625 --> 00:22:17,725 and it just keeps kind of going. 597 00:22:18,265 --> 00:22:20,685 - So, and this, I mean, you talked, you mentioned 598 00:22:20,685 --> 00:22:23,205 before, you recorded the, the 38 year journey. 599 00:22:23,365 --> 00:22:25,445 I mean, is that, I mean, just sort of this cycle, 600 00:22:25,715 --> 00:22:28,285 whether sometimes it was a really short cycle, 601 00:22:28,335 --> 00:22:30,365 maybe other times it was a longer cycle, but 602 00:22:30,365 --> 00:22:32,565 nonetheless, the cycle was happening for those 30 years. It 603 00:22:32,565 --> 00:22:33,565 - Was always there. 604 00:22:33,565 --> 00:22:34,165 Yeah. It was always there. If you'd, 605 00:22:34,165 --> 00:22:37,565 if you'd offered me a thousand dollars to abstain 606 00:22:37,705 --> 00:22:41,405 for X period of time, I probably would've failed the day 607 00:22:41,405 --> 00:22:42,605 before or whatever. 608 00:22:42,605 --> 00:22:45,605 Because deadlines, pressures, you know, 609 00:22:45,605 --> 00:22:47,125 those are all artificial things. 610 00:22:47,125 --> 00:22:49,565 They have nothing to do with healing and recovery. 611 00:22:49,595 --> 00:22:52,645 They only have to do with artificial sobriety. Mm-Hmm. 612 00:22:52,685 --> 00:22:54,845 . And not doing it is not the same 613 00:22:54,905 --> 00:22:57,485 as being healed and being in recovery. 614 00:22:57,865 --> 00:22:59,085 - So at what point did you, 615 00:22:59,585 --> 00:23:01,325 and may, I don't know if this is the next sort 616 00:23:01,325 --> 00:23:03,045 of step in your recovery, but when did 617 00:23:03,045 --> 00:23:04,125 you turn to the 12 steps? 618 00:23:04,125 --> 00:23:06,165 Because I don't know, at that time, was the church, 619 00:23:06,185 --> 00:23:08,045 did the church have their formal 12 step program? 620 00:23:08,675 --> 00:23:10,645 - They had, they had just started it about 15, 621 00:23:10,645 --> 00:23:11,885 16 years ago from now. 622 00:23:12,485 --> 00:23:14,205 I kind of hit a rock bottom. 623 00:23:14,725 --> 00:23:16,005 I was in a community play, 624 00:23:16,465 --> 00:23:18,205 and I had to kiss his girl on stage, 625 00:23:18,425 --> 00:23:20,125 and I started kissing her off stage, trying 626 00:23:20,125 --> 00:23:21,405 to figure out what would be the next step. 627 00:23:21,425 --> 00:23:23,685 How do I, how do I pursue that? Yeah. 628 00:23:24,025 --> 00:23:26,645 And then about the same time, three o'clock in the morning, 629 00:23:26,705 --> 00:23:28,645 one morning my wife came down to the basement, you know, 630 00:23:28,645 --> 00:23:30,205 we had a two story house plus a basement. 631 00:23:30,205 --> 00:23:31,485 And she made her way down 632 00:23:31,485 --> 00:23:32,965 to the basement about three in the morning 633 00:23:33,025 --> 00:23:35,405 and caught me on the computer looking at porn. 634 00:23:36,505 --> 00:23:38,405 And, um, she said, 635 00:23:39,475 --> 00:23:41,575 if I had a baseball bat right now, you'd be dead. 636 00:23:42,795 --> 00:23:44,735 And she made me call mistake president the next morning. 637 00:23:45,265 --> 00:23:46,285 We were pretty good friends with him. 638 00:23:46,285 --> 00:23:50,245 He was an ex-Marine colonel. And my priesthood leader said, 639 00:23:50,245 --> 00:23:51,325 - There's a fun guy to call. 640 00:23:51,325 --> 00:23:52,325 Right. . Yeah. 641 00:23:53,065 --> 00:23:55,605 - He said, damn you, Mike, ho tailing, 642 00:23:56,105 --> 00:23:58,045 you're gonna ruin a perfectly good family. 643 00:23:58,705 --> 00:24:01,085 I'm too mad to talk to you right now. Click. 644 00:24:01,545 --> 00:24:03,725 So that was the love I got from my first 645 00:24:03,725 --> 00:24:04,965 priesthood call . 646 00:24:06,355 --> 00:24:08,455 And then that was a Saturday. And then the next day Sunday, 647 00:24:08,495 --> 00:24:10,215 I went and talked to my bishop and I 648 00:24:10,415 --> 00:24:11,415 - . 649 00:24:11,415 --> 00:24:12,495 So at this point, what makes this rock bottom? 650 00:24:12,495 --> 00:24:14,695 Because your, your wife had caught you before, right? Oh, 651 00:24:15,035 --> 00:24:16,035 - Yes. 652 00:24:16,035 --> 00:24:17,175 Not in the act, but, okay. 653 00:24:17,395 --> 00:24:19,775 But she had, yes, but she, she found evidence of it before, 654 00:24:19,835 --> 00:24:22,695 and I had confessed over time to her 655 00:24:22,695 --> 00:24:26,855 before what made a rock bottom is I realized that she said 656 00:24:26,855 --> 00:24:29,855 that God woke her up and said, go check on Mike. 657 00:24:31,315 --> 00:24:33,605 That seemed terribly unfair to me. 658 00:24:34,125 --> 00:24:36,205 I mean, it sounds ridiculous to say it that way. Yeah. 659 00:24:36,425 --> 00:24:38,005 But if God's on her side, 660 00:24:38,145 --> 00:24:39,725 how am I ever gonna be able to keep doing this? 661 00:24:40,345 --> 00:24:41,565 You know, . Yeah. Because, 662 00:24:41,925 --> 00:24:43,885 'cause the whole point is isolation and secrecy. 663 00:24:43,885 --> 00:24:46,645 And, you know, they say in AA that you're only as sick 664 00:24:46,645 --> 00:24:47,965 as your secrets. 665 00:24:48,465 --> 00:24:51,125 And obviously I would act out for a time 666 00:24:51,145 --> 00:24:53,405 and confess to her in a bishop and act out for a time 667 00:24:53,405 --> 00:24:55,125 and confess to her in a bishop and that kind of thing. 668 00:24:55,145 --> 00:24:57,805 So, but what made this different was I realized in the 669 00:24:57,865 --> 00:25:01,245 bottom of my very soul that I couldn't hide anymore. 670 00:25:01,675 --> 00:25:04,365 That if God's gonna wake her up at three o'clock in the 671 00:25:04,365 --> 00:25:06,165 morning, then maybe next time he'll wake her up at four 672 00:25:06,165 --> 00:25:07,845 o'clock in the morning or two o'clock in the morning. 673 00:25:08,345 --> 00:25:09,365 - The gig was up, it was 674 00:25:09,465 --> 00:25:12,405 - The gig's over and there's no, there's no hiding anymore. 675 00:25:12,865 --> 00:25:14,725 - And when you say rock bottom, was it just, uh, 676 00:25:15,235 --> 00:25:16,685 like then it was at like, well, then 677 00:25:16,705 --> 00:25:20,005 how will I numb out from these feelings? Or, oh, yeah. 678 00:25:20,005 --> 00:25:22,045 - There's a lot of panic about that. Okay, now what do I do? 679 00:25:22,045 --> 00:25:24,565 That was how I coped. Now how do I cope? What do I do? 680 00:25:24,945 --> 00:25:28,405 And, and I was also frightened that I'd come so close to 681 00:25:29,525 --> 00:25:30,705 an affair, you know, and, 682 00:25:30,845 --> 00:25:32,065 and I was trying to figure out how does that work? 683 00:25:32,145 --> 00:25:34,265 I don't even know how to, how to start all that, you know? 684 00:25:34,615 --> 00:25:36,545 Yeah. But I guess I had started it, but, 685 00:25:36,765 --> 00:25:38,705 - And at this time, when you say, you know, how do I cope? 686 00:25:38,905 --> 00:25:42,425 I mean, were you aware of some of these, uh, this, uh, 687 00:25:42,485 --> 00:25:46,225 trauma and w spiritual wounding and or that you've had, 688 00:25:46,225 --> 00:25:47,385 or like, not really. 689 00:25:47,485 --> 00:25:49,185 You didn't know what you were coping from? 690 00:25:49,565 --> 00:25:51,825 - No. I just figured that I was evil and bad. 691 00:25:51,885 --> 00:25:54,345 And, and I, I, no, I didn't, I couldn't identify it. 692 00:25:54,365 --> 00:25:55,985 - But you just knew, like, I just need this. 693 00:25:56,305 --> 00:25:57,905 I don't exactly know why. Right. 694 00:25:58,005 --> 00:26:00,345 But I've tried life not going to this. That's right. 695 00:26:00,345 --> 00:26:01,625 And, and it doesn't work for some 696 00:26:01,625 --> 00:26:02,625 - Reason. 697 00:26:02,625 --> 00:26:03,625 Right? That's right. And for a short period of time, I can, 698 00:26:03,785 --> 00:26:05,825 I can stay away from it, but I have to have it 699 00:26:05,895 --> 00:26:06,895 - Back. 700 00:26:06,895 --> 00:26:08,225 So the gig's up, you know, that this, 701 00:26:08,225 --> 00:26:09,465 that's not gonna be an option anymore. 702 00:26:09,465 --> 00:26:10,785 It's gonna be a lot more difficult. 703 00:26:10,785 --> 00:26:12,265 And so then you're thinking, I don't know why 704 00:26:12,345 --> 00:26:13,465 I need it, but I need it now. 705 00:26:13,465 --> 00:26:14,505 I don't know how I'm gonna get it. 706 00:26:14,605 --> 00:26:16,895 - And how am I gonna get it? Well, when I go 707 00:26:16,895 --> 00:26:19,255 and talk to the bishop, he immediately release releases me. 708 00:26:19,295 --> 00:26:21,815 I was, I was the Gospel doctrine teacher of award. 709 00:26:21,915 --> 00:26:23,415 And I was a good teacher. I was a great teacher. 710 00:26:23,915 --> 00:26:25,695 And, and see, here's the funny part. 711 00:26:26,095 --> 00:26:28,335 I knew the whole time, I knew the gospel was true. 712 00:26:28,515 --> 00:26:30,095 And I knew that the church was the vehicle 713 00:26:30,235 --> 00:26:33,095 for bringing the gospel to people with ordinances 714 00:26:33,095 --> 00:26:35,615 and covenants and, and correct teachings. 715 00:26:36,475 --> 00:26:39,655 But I had come to believe that the gospel was true for you 716 00:26:40,555 --> 00:26:41,975 and you and you, and you and you. 717 00:26:42,035 --> 00:26:44,845 And there's like this big umbrella, I like to say it, 718 00:26:44,845 --> 00:26:46,245 where everybody that's protected 719 00:26:46,245 --> 00:26:48,525 by the atonement is sitting under the umbrella. 720 00:26:48,665 --> 00:26:50,045 But I'm way over there, 721 00:26:50,045 --> 00:26:52,205 and I'm so far away I can't even see the umbrella anymore. 722 00:26:53,015 --> 00:26:54,595 So I hope that it would work for my wife. 723 00:26:55,115 --> 00:26:57,955 I hope that it would work for my kids. I loved them dearly. 724 00:26:58,195 --> 00:26:59,315 I knew it was right. 725 00:26:59,475 --> 00:27:03,755 I knew it was true, but I couldn't do anything about it. 726 00:27:04,155 --> 00:27:06,155 I couldn't live it. I'd tried, I'd failed. 727 00:27:07,185 --> 00:27:09,565 I'd spat on the savior too many times, 728 00:27:10,605 --> 00:27:12,145 and I, so I couldn't do it. Yeah. 729 00:27:12,685 --> 00:27:14,265 - So, man, how, I mean, , 730 00:27:14,445 --> 00:27:16,145 so here we are at rock bottoms. 731 00:27:16,145 --> 00:27:17,385 Like, how long does this last? I mean, 732 00:27:17,495 --> 00:27:19,745 when did hope even begin to sparkle 733 00:27:19,815 --> 00:27:20,815 - That day? 734 00:27:20,815 --> 00:27:22,185 The bishop said, there's a new thing in our stake. 735 00:27:22,235 --> 00:27:23,905 Would you do one thing for me? 736 00:27:24,205 --> 00:27:26,465 And I said, I'll, I'll try something 737 00:27:26,525 --> 00:27:27,985 for you, but not for me. 738 00:27:27,985 --> 00:27:30,345 But I'm, I can't do it. I don't care anymore. 739 00:27:30,705 --> 00:27:32,745 I mean, I care, but I can't do anything about it. 740 00:27:32,945 --> 00:27:34,465 I don't care. And he said, well, 741 00:27:34,465 --> 00:27:35,785 they've started a 12 step program. 742 00:27:35,895 --> 00:27:38,345 It's based on the steps of aa. It's called a RP. 743 00:27:38,345 --> 00:27:39,825 They meet Saturday over in the 744 00:27:39,825 --> 00:27:41,145 Noonan building at nine o'clock. 745 00:27:41,675 --> 00:27:43,825 Would you please just attend one meeting? 746 00:27:44,245 --> 00:27:45,265 - And what year was this roughly? 747 00:27:45,815 --> 00:27:48,705 - 15 years ago. 14. Okay. 14, uh, 15 years ago. 748 00:27:49,005 --> 00:27:52,185 So do the math. 2007. I went public school. Yeah. Okay. 749 00:27:52,185 --> 00:27:55,385 So, so yeah. So about 2000, yeah, six or seven. Okay. 750 00:27:56,005 --> 00:27:57,905 And brand new a RP in our stake. 751 00:27:58,325 --> 00:28:01,745 So I agree to go and, but again, I said, I have no hope. 752 00:28:01,865 --> 00:28:03,565 I have no reason 753 00:28:03,585 --> 00:28:05,205 to believe it's gonna work, but I'll do it for you. 754 00:28:06,125 --> 00:28:09,105 So I show up Saturday morning, 10 to nine. 755 00:28:09,565 --> 00:28:11,385 Nobody comes. Not even the group leader. 756 00:28:11,855 --> 00:28:12,785 - Like you were at the church 757 00:28:12,905 --> 00:28:13,705 building by yourself. Yeah, I'm 758 00:28:13,705 --> 00:28:14,705 - At the, I'm at the church building. 759 00:28:14,725 --> 00:28:16,345 I'm sitting in the park lot. I'm waiting. That's 760 00:28:16,545 --> 00:28:17,505 - Hopeful. That's great. I'm going, 761 00:28:17,505 --> 00:28:18,505 - Well, dang. 762 00:28:18,655 --> 00:28:20,345 Okay. I guess it's not really a thing. 763 00:28:20,685 --> 00:28:22,945 But I, I'd agreed with him that I would go to one. 764 00:28:23,205 --> 00:28:24,505 So the next Saturday, I went 765 00:28:24,505 --> 00:28:25,985 back nine o'clock in the morning. 766 00:28:26,405 --> 00:28:27,785 It was just me and the group leader. 767 00:28:28,445 --> 00:28:30,625 And I don't even remember what step we were on. 768 00:28:30,665 --> 00:28:31,905 I, as I recall, it was eight 769 00:28:31,905 --> 00:28:34,065 or nine, you know, one of the more difficult steps maybe. 770 00:28:34,085 --> 00:28:35,145 But it didn't matter. 771 00:28:35,825 --> 00:28:38,345 I felt I'd lived in darkness so long 772 00:28:38,445 --> 00:28:41,385 and without hope for so long that the feeling, 773 00:28:41,445 --> 00:28:43,625 the best way I can describe it as though a spider were 774 00:28:43,765 --> 00:28:45,025 around the ceiling above me. 775 00:28:45,045 --> 00:28:48,945 And he was just dropping a tiny, tiny, tiny web of hope. 776 00:28:49,365 --> 00:28:52,065 And it just came down and it touched my leg. 777 00:28:52,965 --> 00:28:57,625 And so this tiniest connection to hope, I hadn't felt 778 00:28:57,625 --> 00:28:58,905 that in decades. 779 00:28:59,285 --> 00:29:00,505 - And you knew it couldn't lift you, 780 00:29:00,605 --> 00:29:02,745 but it was hope still, you know, it was beginning, 781 00:29:02,745 --> 00:29:03,825 - It was, it was hope. 782 00:29:04,325 --> 00:29:08,625 And it touched me. And so my heart was stirred. 783 00:29:08,665 --> 00:29:11,825 I knew there was something there. And so I began to 784 00:29:12,455 --> 00:29:15,465 take seriously a RP take seriously the 12 steps 785 00:29:15,565 --> 00:29:19,105 and do, as that counselor had recommended so many years ago, 786 00:29:19,575 --> 00:29:21,225 only two ways to get rid of an addiction. 787 00:29:21,225 --> 00:29:22,265 Either swap it for another 788 00:29:22,325 --> 00:29:24,265 or honestly work a 12 step program. 789 00:29:24,365 --> 00:29:25,425 So I began to work the program, 790 00:29:25,965 --> 00:29:29,545 and it probably took me a total of maybe, gosh, two years 791 00:29:29,805 --> 00:29:31,065 to actually achieve sobriety. 792 00:29:31,065 --> 00:29:34,585 Because in that process, I, I wasn't after sobriety. 793 00:29:34,705 --> 00:29:36,225 I, I was learning that what I was 794 00:29:36,225 --> 00:29:37,825 after was recovery and healing. 795 00:29:38,565 --> 00:29:41,445 And I knew it wouldn't be enough to just, uh, attend 796 00:29:41,465 --> 00:29:43,845 and underline some good things in the a RP book. 797 00:29:44,545 --> 00:29:47,125 But I began to really dig into 12 Steps in Recovery. 798 00:29:47,245 --> 00:29:50,325 I read the aa big book, the, the essay white book, the, 799 00:29:50,345 --> 00:29:54,285 you know, I, I read Tales, stories of other people 800 00:29:54,425 --> 00:29:56,325 who had been in addiction and got out. And 801 00:29:56,325 --> 00:29:59,005 - I, and essay is Sex Sexual - Sexaholics 802 00:29:59,005 --> 00:30:00,045 - And Hogs. And I'm, 803 00:30:00,155 --> 00:30:01,205 - Yeah, yeah, yeah. 804 00:30:01,745 --> 00:30:04,405 And got pretty regular with my a RP meetings 805 00:30:04,505 --> 00:30:05,565 and began doing the work. 806 00:30:06,025 --> 00:30:08,245 And, and I realized there was truth there. 807 00:30:09,145 --> 00:30:10,605 And, and I felt things 808 00:30:10,605 --> 00:30:12,125 that I hadn't felt for many, many years. 809 00:30:12,465 --> 00:30:13,605 But like I said, it was an instant. 810 00:30:13,785 --> 00:30:14,885 And, and that was frustrating. 811 00:30:15,405 --> 00:30:18,245 I mean, in the LDS culture, we, I repented, 812 00:30:18,985 --> 00:30:20,005 I'm done. I wanna move 813 00:30:20,025 --> 00:30:21,025 - On. 814 00:30:21,025 --> 00:30:21,605 Yeah. I didn't wanna be with 815 00:30:21,605 --> 00:30:23,645 the other people under the umbrella. Right. That's 816 00:30:23,645 --> 00:30:24,645 - Right. 817 00:30:24,645 --> 00:30:25,165 I wanna go get back to the umbrella. 818 00:30:25,785 --> 00:30:28,685 And, and I don't wanna stay here in, in trying 819 00:30:28,745 --> 00:30:30,965 to repent for very long. 820 00:30:31,625 --> 00:30:33,485 And that's what I see in the 12 steps now is a lot 821 00:30:33,485 --> 00:30:34,885 of people will come in and they'll dip their toe 822 00:30:34,885 --> 00:30:35,925 and then they'll go, okay, that's good. 823 00:30:35,925 --> 00:30:37,885 I got that. I understand that. And then they leave. 824 00:30:37,985 --> 00:30:39,805 And that's, that's not recovery. 825 00:30:39,905 --> 00:30:41,365 - You know, it's, it's not necessarily a class. 826 00:30:41,395 --> 00:30:42,725 It's really a lifestyle. Right. Mean 827 00:30:42,725 --> 00:30:44,205 - You shouldn't, it should never be called a class. 828 00:30:44,305 --> 00:30:46,245 It should be called a lifestyle. 829 00:30:46,665 --> 00:30:48,965 And it's not a 12 week program. 830 00:30:49,155 --> 00:30:50,405 It's not something you graduate from. 831 00:30:50,405 --> 00:30:51,725 It's a 12 step program. 832 00:30:51,825 --> 00:30:53,765 And if you do it right, it'll probably take you years 833 00:30:54,265 --> 00:30:55,645 to really work the program. 834 00:30:55,835 --> 00:30:58,605 - Yeah. Yeah. Did you, uh, during this time, I mean, 835 00:30:58,945 --> 00:30:59,965 as you're sort of coming out 836 00:30:59,965 --> 00:31:01,125 and discovering this hope, 837 00:31:01,125 --> 00:31:02,445 were you receiving professional 838 00:31:02,445 --> 00:31:03,725 therapy in these, I mean, because 839 00:31:04,245 --> 00:31:06,325 - I had some counseling from all these social services. 840 00:31:06,515 --> 00:31:09,765 Some of it was very valuable, some of it was less valuable. 841 00:31:09,765 --> 00:31:11,245 But part of that had to do with where I was at. 842 00:31:11,865 --> 00:31:13,085 One thing that I did notice during 843 00:31:13,085 --> 00:31:15,125 that time was all the attention was paid to me 844 00:31:15,545 --> 00:31:17,045 by the counselors and by the bishop. 845 00:31:17,785 --> 00:31:19,485 Not enough attention was paid to my wife, 846 00:31:19,665 --> 00:31:21,565 who really was the innocent victim in all this. 847 00:31:22,025 --> 00:31:24,485 So let's give Mike a blessing. Let's give Mike an interview. 848 00:31:24,485 --> 00:31:25,765 Let's see how Mike's doing. 849 00:31:26,105 --> 00:31:28,685 And that's one thing I, I counsel other leaders now 850 00:31:28,745 --> 00:31:31,205 to please pay attention to the spouses and to the children. 851 00:31:31,835 --> 00:31:33,525 They are truly the innocence. 852 00:31:34,025 --> 00:31:36,885 And in a real way, the victim, uh, the, excuse me, 853 00:31:36,885 --> 00:31:39,485 the addict is also an innocent victim 854 00:31:40,145 --> 00:31:41,485 of those wounds, et cetera. 855 00:31:41,485 --> 00:31:42,965 But, but we don't pay enough attention, 856 00:31:43,085 --> 00:31:44,205 I don't think, to the spouse. 857 00:31:44,945 --> 00:31:46,605 - So what's the next step? What, you start the, 858 00:31:46,695 --> 00:31:48,805 start doing this years and years. 859 00:31:49,105 --> 00:31:50,205 - Do the 12 steps? Uh, eventually, yeah. 860 00:31:50,305 --> 00:31:52,405 Uh, eventually got called as a group leader 861 00:31:52,405 --> 00:31:53,725 after I had about a year sobriety 862 00:31:53,725 --> 00:31:57,245 or, so I used to mark my sobriety in days and weeks. 863 00:31:57,345 --> 00:31:58,605 Did I tell you that already? Yeah. 864 00:31:58,665 --> 00:32:00,125 - Not on the recording. So go for it. 865 00:32:00,125 --> 00:32:02,965 - Okay. Yeah. You know, a 24 hour coin like they do in AA 866 00:32:02,985 --> 00:32:05,325 and a and a one week and a month, and a, you know, 867 00:32:05,325 --> 00:32:06,445 and I was buying myself these coins. 868 00:32:06,525 --> 00:32:09,685 'cause we don't really have that tradition in the a RP world 869 00:32:09,705 --> 00:32:11,885 and, and a one year and then a two year coin. 870 00:32:11,885 --> 00:32:13,725 And, and they were valuable to me. They were important. 871 00:32:14,505 --> 00:32:17,685 But after several years, I quit carrying those coins. 872 00:32:17,705 --> 00:32:20,205 And all I carry now is a one day at a time coin. 873 00:32:20,555 --> 00:32:23,565 Because while I was trying to mark my progress, I realized 874 00:32:23,635 --> 00:32:25,845 that kind of like, stop doing it for 30 days 875 00:32:25,845 --> 00:32:27,165 and we'll ordain you a deacon. 876 00:32:27,675 --> 00:32:30,005 Stop doing it for 90 days and will ordain you an elder. 877 00:32:30,805 --> 00:32:32,525 I realized that marking time 878 00:32:33,065 --> 00:32:34,725 was less helpful than I wanted it to be. 879 00:32:35,385 --> 00:32:37,085 And that I was living in the future. 880 00:32:37,265 --> 00:32:38,565 Or when I get a year, I can do this. 881 00:32:38,565 --> 00:32:40,045 When I get get 10 years, I can do this. 882 00:32:40,505 --> 00:32:43,605 And in reality, what I needed was to stay sober today. 883 00:32:43,905 --> 00:32:45,405 And I tell you in those early days, you know, 884 00:32:45,405 --> 00:32:47,685 we talk about seeking recovery and healing and 885 00:32:47,945 --> 00:32:49,045 but white knuckling 886 00:32:49,045 --> 00:32:51,805 and some of those, some of those tools are still important. 887 00:32:52,095 --> 00:32:54,365 There were days when I would say, you know what, 888 00:32:54,645 --> 00:32:56,445 tomorrow I'm gonna look for the best 889 00:32:56,465 --> 00:32:58,005 and the greatest porn I've ever seen. 890 00:32:58,325 --> 00:33:00,605 Tomorrow I will do that. I will act out tomorrow. 891 00:33:00,755 --> 00:33:01,885 I'll start early in the morning 892 00:33:01,905 --> 00:33:03,125 and I'll go till late at night 893 00:33:03,125 --> 00:33:05,325 and I won't stop till I'm satisfied. 894 00:33:05,865 --> 00:33:08,845 But for today, for right now, just gonna hang on right now. 895 00:33:09,385 --> 00:33:12,125 And so it's not all, you know, puppies and, and rainbows. 896 00:33:12,145 --> 00:33:14,245 I'm in recovery and I'm learning new tools 897 00:33:14,305 --> 00:33:15,965 and I'm never tempted again. 898 00:33:16,465 --> 00:33:17,765 That's not how it was for me. 899 00:33:18,505 --> 00:33:20,405 So you have to pick up every tool 900 00:33:20,405 --> 00:33:21,765 that you encounter along the way. 901 00:33:22,345 --> 00:33:23,525 If you listen to a podcast 902 00:33:23,745 --> 00:33:25,405 and some part of it applies, grab that. 903 00:33:25,465 --> 00:33:27,645 Put that tool in your, you know, that arrow in your quiver. 904 00:33:28,115 --> 00:33:30,165 That wasn't helpful to me. That part. Well, good. Great. 905 00:33:30,165 --> 00:33:31,725 Don't pick that up. But actually 906 00:33:31,785 --> 00:33:32,965 you probably should pick it up. 907 00:33:33,125 --> 00:33:34,925 'cause you may end up using it later. Yeah. 908 00:33:35,425 --> 00:33:37,725 So every single tool along the way was helpful, 909 00:33:37,835 --> 00:33:39,565 including sometimes you just 910 00:33:39,565 --> 00:33:40,645 have to white knuckle through it. 911 00:33:40,755 --> 00:33:42,925 That is not a solution, but it's a tool. 912 00:33:42,925 --> 00:33:44,845 - Yeah. I'm glad you mention that. 'cause sometimes we sort 913 00:33:44,845 --> 00:33:46,165 of dismiss the white knuckling 914 00:33:46,165 --> 00:33:47,565 and it's definitely not a long-term plan. 915 00:33:47,565 --> 00:33:50,005 Correct. Correct. It's, it's not gonna work. Correct. 916 00:33:50,025 --> 00:33:52,005 But, uh, there are those moments where you think, you know 917 00:33:52,005 --> 00:33:53,725 what, okay, I'll do that tomorrow, 918 00:33:53,785 --> 00:33:54,885 but today I'm not gonna do that. 919 00:33:54,955 --> 00:33:56,525 - Exactly. And I literally 920 00:33:56,525 --> 00:33:57,685 said that to myself tomorrow. Yeah. 921 00:33:57,685 --> 00:33:59,365 - It's a tool, right. Not a strategy. That's 922 00:33:59,365 --> 00:34:00,365 - Right. 923 00:34:00,365 --> 00:34:01,405 Yeah. That's right. There were some other 924 00:34:01,405 --> 00:34:02,765 strategies I learned along the way. 925 00:34:02,905 --> 00:34:05,805 Uh, one fellow teaches, face it, replace it. 926 00:34:05,835 --> 00:34:08,885 Connect where you, instead of, oh, cringing. 927 00:34:08,915 --> 00:34:13,405 When you see a, an billboard that's tempting or something, 928 00:34:13,405 --> 00:34:16,125 or a magazine article, that's a, a picture that's tempting. 929 00:34:16,125 --> 00:34:19,765 Instead of turning away and cringing, just face it. 930 00:34:20,165 --> 00:34:23,285 Recognize, oh man, she's beautiful. I'm attracted to that. 931 00:34:23,345 --> 00:34:25,765 And so you face it and you're not afraid of it. 932 00:34:25,765 --> 00:34:27,645 It has it, it loses some of its power over you. 933 00:34:28,185 --> 00:34:29,765 And then you replace it with truth. 934 00:34:30,665 --> 00:34:31,765 You know what, she's not mine. 935 00:34:32,315 --> 00:34:34,605 It's somebody's daughter, it's somebody's wife, 936 00:34:34,635 --> 00:34:37,205 it's somebody's sister, it's God's daughter. 937 00:34:37,785 --> 00:34:39,205 So I face it, instead of running from 938 00:34:39,205 --> 00:34:40,565 it, I replace it with truth. 939 00:34:40,905 --> 00:34:42,765 And then I connect, pick up the phone and call somebody. 940 00:34:42,785 --> 00:34:44,405 And we don't have to talk about my temptation. 941 00:34:44,465 --> 00:34:46,005 Hey Kurt, it's killing me. I'm dying. 942 00:34:46,765 --> 00:34:48,165 I just say, Hey Kurt, how was your 943 00:34:48,165 --> 00:34:49,685 fishing expedition this morning? 944 00:34:49,685 --> 00:34:51,725 Yeah. Just connect with somebody. Yeah. 945 00:34:51,785 --> 00:34:54,445 So that was a tool that I learned that helped me too. Yeah. 946 00:34:54,445 --> 00:34:55,525 - You know, that connection part. 947 00:34:55,905 --> 00:34:57,965 You know, we almost wanna just take those first two 948 00:34:57,965 --> 00:34:59,365 and say like, okay, I'll do those, but, 949 00:34:59,845 --> 00:35:00,925 'cause I can do those on my own. 950 00:35:01,465 --> 00:35:04,085 And, uh, you know, but to reach out, like, that's hard. 951 00:35:04,085 --> 00:35:06,885 But man, when you do it, it's just, it's amazing 952 00:35:07,105 --> 00:35:08,365 how effective it's Right. 953 00:35:08,665 --> 00:35:10,325 - It matters. And you don't have to reach out 954 00:35:10,465 --> 00:35:13,005 and connect necessarily over the temptation. 955 00:35:13,065 --> 00:35:14,405 Mm-Hmm. , I'm dying here. 956 00:35:14,525 --> 00:35:16,085 I just saw, you know, this and that. 957 00:35:16,145 --> 00:35:18,045 And, and I can't take it. We, I, I can just, 958 00:35:18,045 --> 00:35:19,045 - And you might Right. 959 00:35:19,045 --> 00:35:21,005 - And I might, I might. But what I really need 960 00:35:21,005 --> 00:35:22,685 to connect is just with another person 961 00:35:22,865 --> 00:35:24,485 and it takes me outta the place and it, you know. 962 00:35:24,485 --> 00:35:26,485 Right. And then of course there were tools, 963 00:35:26,485 --> 00:35:29,365 like avoiding places where I'd been to buy pornography 964 00:35:29,365 --> 00:35:30,845 or stolen it from, or whatever I'd done. 965 00:35:30,865 --> 00:35:32,765 You know, I mean, you just, you just can't go there. 966 00:35:33,185 --> 00:35:35,925 And so I, I had to change lots of things about me. Yeah. 967 00:35:36,605 --> 00:35:38,395 - Anything else as far as just the recovery process 968 00:35:38,505 --> 00:35:39,875 that brings you up to the point 969 00:35:39,875 --> 00:35:41,755 where maybe some leadership roles 970 00:35:41,755 --> 00:35:42,955 were starting to come into your life? 971 00:35:43,455 --> 00:35:44,475 - No, that was kind of it. 972 00:35:44,535 --> 00:35:47,315 So now I've been serving in a ar uh, I attended a RP 973 00:35:47,315 --> 00:35:49,595 for a long time, served in a RP for a couple of years 974 00:35:49,735 --> 00:35:52,115 as a group leader and slash facilitator. 975 00:35:52,115 --> 00:35:53,355 Mm-Hmm. . And, um, 976 00:35:54,375 --> 00:35:56,395 and then was really surprised 977 00:35:56,395 --> 00:35:58,235 after a couple of years of sobriety to get a, 978 00:35:58,315 --> 00:35:59,875 a phone call from the state president. 979 00:35:59,875 --> 00:36:01,155 And he called me to be a counselor 980 00:36:01,215 --> 00:36:03,235 to my bishop in my home ward. 981 00:36:03,265 --> 00:36:05,075 - Okay. And I would assume being a, 982 00:36:05,315 --> 00:36:07,435 a facilitator in the a RP program, he knew 983 00:36:07,665 --> 00:36:08,715 that he had some history there. 984 00:36:08,935 --> 00:36:10,915 - He was the state president that, uh, well, he, 985 00:36:10,915 --> 00:36:13,235 he replaced the ring colonel that damned me 986 00:36:13,575 --> 00:36:15,115 for ruining a perfectly good family. 987 00:36:15,375 --> 00:36:16,875 And I love him for that. I do, I do. 988 00:36:17,175 --> 00:36:20,515 But he replaced that stake president and he, yeah. 989 00:36:20,515 --> 00:36:23,555 He understood everything. And in fact, he's the one 990 00:36:23,555 --> 00:36:25,915 that had started the passage, 991 00:36:26,225 --> 00:36:28,515 pornography assistance, excuse me. 992 00:36:28,515 --> 00:36:31,075 Pornography Addiction Support group in our stake. Oh, okay. 993 00:36:31,255 --> 00:36:33,835 And put me as the first group leader over that instead 994 00:36:33,835 --> 00:36:35,035 of just a regular a RP. 995 00:36:35,035 --> 00:36:36,995 So, so I'd been serving under him for years. 996 00:36:37,015 --> 00:36:38,875 He was fully aware of my past 997 00:36:39,175 --> 00:36:40,355 and, uh, that I had, uh, 998 00:36:40,355 --> 00:36:41,595 at this point, probably three or four years. 999 00:36:41,815 --> 00:36:43,675 - So give us a brief explanation how that worked 1000 00:36:43,695 --> 00:36:45,915 and how it differed from a traditional a RP program. 1001 00:36:45,945 --> 00:36:47,395 - Traditional a RP group, 1002 00:36:47,705 --> 00:36:51,035 addiction Recovery Program group will handle all addictions, 1003 00:36:51,055 --> 00:36:52,715 any and all, doesn't matter what. 1004 00:36:52,715 --> 00:36:55,235 It's okay. And it's open to males and females too. 1005 00:36:56,115 --> 00:36:57,635 A passage, PASG, 1006 00:36:57,635 --> 00:37:00,315 pornography Addiction Support Group is organized strictly 1007 00:37:00,735 --> 00:37:03,595 for, in our case, men who suffer from pornography addiction. 1008 00:37:03,595 --> 00:37:05,875 Okay. The guidelines are, as I understand, 1009 00:37:05,875 --> 00:37:08,075 and where there's a passage group, then there's supposed 1010 00:37:08,075 --> 00:37:10,355 to be a wives support group too. 1011 00:37:10,855 --> 00:37:12,075 - And is this coming from the 1012 00:37:12,195 --> 00:37:13,275 churches program? Or is this just 1013 00:37:13,535 --> 00:37:14,535 - Yes, it is. 1014 00:37:14,535 --> 00:37:16,715 Yes it is. And where there's higher, you know, 1015 00:37:16,715 --> 00:37:17,835 higher density of Mormons, 1016 00:37:18,065 --> 00:37:20,115 then there are some women's passage groups too. 1017 00:37:20,175 --> 00:37:22,435 But in our stake, we had a men's passage group. Okay. 1018 00:37:22,495 --> 00:37:25,635 Men only and, uh, all porn or sex addicts. 1019 00:37:25,635 --> 00:37:28,875 And then a wom, a spouses support group, which my wife 1020 00:37:29,395 --> 00:37:32,315 continues to lead the women's support group to this day. 1021 00:37:32,375 --> 00:37:35,395 - Oh, cool. And then in conjunction, there's also just the, 1022 00:37:35,495 --> 00:37:37,195 the general a RP meeting. 1023 00:37:37,195 --> 00:37:38,515 That's right. That's happening outside of those 1024 00:37:38,655 --> 00:37:39,655 - That's right. 1025 00:37:39,655 --> 00:37:42,115 In our state, we have two general a RP meetings, one passage 1026 00:37:42,295 --> 00:37:44,235 for men and one spouse support group. And 1027 00:37:44,235 --> 00:37:45,835 - So if a leader wants to know more about 1028 00:37:45,855 --> 00:37:48,355 how these passage groups work, they can go to the 1029 00:37:49,075 --> 00:37:50,475 literature in a RP or, 1030 00:37:50,655 --> 00:37:51,655 - Yes. 1031 00:37:51,655 --> 00:37:53,155 I jokingly tell everybody to go online 1032 00:37:53,155 --> 00:37:54,795 and search for pornography . 1033 00:37:54,815 --> 00:37:57,795 And, and what I mean by that is go to church 1034 00:37:57,795 --> 00:38:00,795 of jesus christ.org and search for pornography. 1035 00:38:01,215 --> 00:38:04,275 And one of the links there will be in, uh, Provident Living 1036 00:38:04,335 --> 00:38:05,715 and, and, um, as it's 1037 00:38:05,915 --> 00:38:07,675 organized, and they can find their groups. Awesome. 1038 00:38:07,675 --> 00:38:10,515 - Awesome. So then you're called into a bishop brick 1039 00:38:10,615 --> 00:38:11,715 - Called into a bishop brick. 1040 00:38:11,815 --> 00:38:13,675 - And this is what, early 2000 tens or, 1041 00:38:13,855 --> 00:38:15,755 - Uh, yeah, yeah, about that. 1042 00:38:16,335 --> 00:38:18,235 And, uh, it was kind of funny 1043 00:38:18,235 --> 00:38:20,195 because the high counselor that called me was new and, 1044 00:38:20,455 --> 00:38:22,955 and I said, uh, who am I gonna be serving with? 1045 00:38:23,455 --> 00:38:25,315 He says, I don't know if I can tell you that or not. 1046 00:38:25,915 --> 00:38:27,235 'cause we were getting a new bishop. Oh, gotcha. 1047 00:38:27,375 --> 00:38:28,755 So for three weeks, I had no idea. 1048 00:38:28,875 --> 00:38:31,035 I said, yes, but I had no idea who the new bishop would be. 1049 00:38:31,435 --> 00:38:34,715 a great man, uh, 1050 00:38:34,815 --> 00:38:36,525 who also was already aware of my story. 1051 00:38:37,025 --> 00:38:38,405 By this time, Andrea 1052 00:38:38,405 --> 00:38:41,765 and I were starting to talk and be a little more public. 1053 00:38:41,785 --> 00:38:44,565 We both, we'd been in a RP passage in the spouse group. 1054 00:38:44,565 --> 00:38:46,285 - Like were you speaking in church or, we were, 1055 00:38:46,285 --> 00:38:47,965 - We were - Starting to at Sunday school or 1056 00:38:48,365 --> 00:38:50,845 - Starting to, starting to be asked to speak in like 1057 00:38:50,875 --> 00:38:53,485 what was then the third hour meetings, uh, 1058 00:38:53,565 --> 00:38:56,205 fifth Sunday meetings, gave a couple of fireside, 1059 00:38:56,885 --> 00:38:59,285 I did some youth only things all at the invitation 1060 00:38:59,305 --> 00:39:00,805 of the bishops or state President. 1061 00:39:00,805 --> 00:39:03,925 And so we were beginning to be pretty open about our story. 1062 00:39:04,475 --> 00:39:06,725 Initially, they would ask me to come 1063 00:39:06,725 --> 00:39:07,845 and speak and tell my story. 1064 00:39:08,225 --> 00:39:11,045 And then a smart bishop, like we were talking, said, Hey, 1065 00:39:11,225 --> 00:39:13,885 Andrea has a story too, and I'd like our women to hear it. 1066 00:39:14,185 --> 00:39:16,165 You think she'd be willing? Oh, I know she would. 1067 00:39:16,825 --> 00:39:18,725 And so, so we began to tell our story. 1068 00:39:18,725 --> 00:39:20,725 And so this was, this was, this was getting pretty public. 1069 00:39:21,425 --> 00:39:24,605 And after serving a couple years in, uh, the Bishoprick, 1070 00:39:24,995 --> 00:39:27,525 then we were called for two years to a Spanish branch 1071 00:39:28,145 --> 00:39:29,565 to serve in a Spanish branch. 1072 00:39:30,035 --> 00:39:31,485 Then I was called to in the 1073 00:39:31,485 --> 00:39:32,485 - Bishoprick - Or just, uh, nope. 1074 00:39:32,725 --> 00:39:34,965 I was the young men's president in the Spanish branch. 1075 00:39:35,505 --> 00:39:36,845 And, uh, Andrew served in primary. 1076 00:39:37,745 --> 00:39:40,915 And from there, then I was called to the high council. 1077 00:39:41,825 --> 00:39:44,725 And, uh, one of my duties in the high council was 1078 00:39:44,725 --> 00:39:47,125 to oversee the A RP program, which, good. 1079 00:39:47,385 --> 00:39:48,845 That's my favorite thing. Yeah. 1080 00:39:49,205 --> 00:39:50,925 A RP meetings are the most honest places 1081 00:39:50,925 --> 00:39:52,645 that I've ever been anywhere in the 1082 00:39:52,645 --> 00:39:53,805 church, you know, or out. 1083 00:39:54,345 --> 00:39:57,085 So I counselor several years over the a RP program, 1084 00:39:57,465 --> 00:39:59,205 and then about a year ago, 1085 00:39:59,465 --> 00:40:01,685 get a call again from the Shaik president and asking me 1086 00:40:01,685 --> 00:40:02,845 and Andrea to come in and, 1087 00:40:03,385 --> 00:40:05,205 and he calls me to be the new bishop 1088 00:40:05,305 --> 00:40:06,885 of the young single adult ward. 1089 00:40:07,165 --> 00:40:09,965 Hmm. And so, one of the first things we did, 1090 00:40:10,345 --> 00:40:12,165 and I love these kids, but one 1091 00:40:12,165 --> 00:40:14,325 of the first things we did was organize, this is in Covid, 1092 00:40:14,835 --> 00:40:17,005 this is in June of Covid Uhhuh 1093 00:40:17,045 --> 00:40:18,965 - , when you were - Called of, of 20 Covid. 1094 00:40:18,995 --> 00:40:21,725 Yeah, yeah. . So, uh, yeah, so called last June, 1095 00:40:22,105 --> 00:40:23,525 uh, 2020. And, 1096 00:40:23,525 --> 00:40:26,885 - And let ask, like during that call in extension of it, 1097 00:40:26,985 --> 00:40:30,005 was there any talk about, you know, to encourage you 1098 00:40:30,005 --> 00:40:32,565 to be open about your past or not, or 1099 00:40:33,185 --> 00:40:34,605 - Not specific direction to do that, 1100 00:40:34,705 --> 00:40:37,125 but this state president, which is now, you know, 1101 00:40:37,145 --> 00:40:40,605 two away from the Marine, this state president also knew 1102 00:40:40,605 --> 00:40:41,685 because I was on high council. 1103 00:40:41,685 --> 00:40:43,005 So he is my state president there. 1104 00:40:43,545 --> 00:40:46,725 And he had facilitated training for me to come 1105 00:40:46,725 --> 00:40:48,285 and talk to the bishop for my wife to come 1106 00:40:48,285 --> 00:40:49,965 and talk to the bishops, and 1107 00:40:50,605 --> 00:40:51,685 encouraged me to go to the wards. 1108 00:40:51,905 --> 00:40:54,845 So nothing explicit about the whole reason I'm calling you 1109 00:40:54,845 --> 00:40:56,085 is 'cause I want you to share your story 1110 00:40:56,085 --> 00:40:57,645 with the kids in the YSA ward. 1111 00:40:58,025 --> 00:40:59,045 But he knew that that would happen. 1112 00:40:59,865 --> 00:41:02,325 And he's super, super supportive, very loving. 1113 00:41:02,385 --> 00:41:05,565 And he, he gets it, he gets addiction, he gets a OP 1114 00:41:05,905 --> 00:41:07,765 and all three of 'em did. Really? 1115 00:41:07,765 --> 00:41:10,325 - Yeah. So starting that, I mean, uh, how do you begin 1116 00:41:10,325 --> 00:41:12,045 to create a dialogue around that? 1117 00:41:12,105 --> 00:41:15,805 Or, I mean, is it fifth Sunday type of lesson or? Well, we 1118 00:41:16,315 --> 00:41:18,205 - Just, a few days after I was called then 1119 00:41:18,205 --> 00:41:19,285 we set a fireside. 1120 00:41:19,845 --> 00:41:21,765 I wanted to still catch the summer kids 1121 00:41:21,765 --> 00:41:22,845 before they went off to school. 1122 00:41:23,025 --> 00:41:26,805 Mm. And so the format was, uh, me 1123 00:41:27,395 --> 00:41:28,725 telling the kids my story, 1124 00:41:29,545 --> 00:41:33,405 and I put up on the screen a, a picture of a, you know, 1125 00:41:33,525 --> 00:41:38,245 a crack addict unrecognizable with scars and missing teeth. 1126 00:41:38,385 --> 00:41:42,205 And, and I said, that's what you think of when you think 1127 00:41:42,205 --> 00:41:43,365 of a crack addict. 1128 00:41:44,025 --> 00:41:45,845 But, and then I put this picture 1129 00:41:45,845 --> 00:41:47,685 of me 10 years old in a Cub Scout uniform. 1130 00:41:48,645 --> 00:41:51,325 I said, I want you to know that this is 1131 00:41:51,325 --> 00:41:52,405 what an addict looks like. 1132 00:41:53,225 --> 00:41:55,885 And so I told my story almost 1133 00:41:55,885 --> 00:41:57,325 - Just like, just like you've told it, almost 1134 00:41:57,505 --> 00:41:58,505 - Almost word for word. 1135 00:41:58,505 --> 00:41:59,685 Like I've told it to you. Mm-Hmm. 1136 00:41:59,725 --> 00:42:01,005 , this is where I, you know, 1137 00:42:01,005 --> 00:42:02,965 like this a NAA what was it? 1138 00:42:02,965 --> 00:42:04,925 Like, what happened? What's it like now? 1139 00:42:05,465 --> 00:42:07,685 And over the years, I'd say I've attended many AA 1140 00:42:07,705 --> 00:42:09,645 and NA meetings also. 1141 00:42:10,085 --> 00:42:12,925 I heartily endorse them. They are wonderful. 1142 00:42:13,225 --> 00:42:14,965 - And a alcohol's anonymous. And 1143 00:42:15,165 --> 00:42:15,645 - Narcotics. Narcotics. Anonymous. 1144 00:42:15,645 --> 00:42:17,485 - Anonymous. And, and so you tend them as sort 1145 00:42:17,485 --> 00:42:18,525 of finding strength 1146 00:42:18,525 --> 00:42:19,725 - And you usually have a friend there. 1147 00:42:19,725 --> 00:42:21,325 Yeah. Usually have a friend going there. 1148 00:42:21,705 --> 00:42:23,045 I'm not like a regular attender. 1149 00:42:23,045 --> 00:42:24,085 And, and drugs and alcohol, 1150 00:42:24,085 --> 00:42:25,725 thank heavens have not been my issue. 1151 00:42:25,835 --> 00:42:27,125 Yeah. But they are for many people 1152 00:42:27,145 --> 00:42:28,525 and for, for several friends. 1153 00:42:28,945 --> 00:42:30,565 And so I've attended with them. Yeah. 1154 00:42:30,795 --> 00:42:32,565 That, that's what I'm talking about, the consequences. 1155 00:42:32,565 --> 00:42:33,925 Right. The addiction's the same, 1156 00:42:34,065 --> 00:42:36,045 the core problem is the same. 1157 00:42:36,145 --> 00:42:38,405 And the resolution, the healing is the same. 1158 00:42:39,105 --> 00:42:44,045 But had I chosen a different addiction, I could be dead now. 1159 00:42:44,075 --> 00:42:47,565 Yeah. You know, the path, I don't know would've happened. 1160 00:42:47,905 --> 00:42:49,245 - So you do this, uh, fireside 1161 00:42:49,465 --> 00:42:51,725 and, uh, what's the, what's the response to it or 1162 00:42:52,025 --> 00:42:53,445 - It was, they loved it. 1163 00:42:53,755 --> 00:42:56,725 They loved getting to know their bishop better. 1164 00:42:56,725 --> 00:42:58,885 They loved get fi having a bishop they could trust. 1165 00:42:59,465 --> 00:43:00,565 - And what do you mean by that? Trust? 1166 00:43:01,035 --> 00:43:03,325 - Well, when I listen to general conference, 1167 00:43:03,325 --> 00:43:04,645 every once in a while, somebody will come 1168 00:43:04,645 --> 00:43:07,965 and talk about how he never heard his father speak an ill 1169 00:43:07,965 --> 00:43:09,205 word to his, their mother or, 1170 00:43:09,545 --> 00:43:11,245 or they never was a raised voice in their house. 1171 00:43:11,245 --> 00:43:12,485 And I'm going, I don't even know 1172 00:43:12,485 --> 00:43:13,925 what you're talking about. Yeah. You know, 1173 00:43:13,945 --> 00:43:14,945 - You just - Don't relate to it. 1174 00:43:14,945 --> 00:43:16,565 You're untouchable, you're unrelatable to me. 1175 00:43:16,945 --> 00:43:19,005 And my whole point of telling the kids my story, 1176 00:43:19,105 --> 00:43:20,725 and they, they say it's okay to call my kids. 1177 00:43:20,965 --> 00:43:22,125 'cause some of them could be my 1178 00:43:22,445 --> 00:43:23,685 grandkids, age wise, . 1179 00:43:24,105 --> 00:43:26,765 So no disrespect to my young single adults, but my kids. 1180 00:43:27,345 --> 00:43:30,165 So by telling 'em my story, it wasn't to call attention 1181 00:43:30,165 --> 00:43:31,725 to myself or say, you know, Hey, I was 1182 00:43:31,725 --> 00:43:32,885 so bad and now I'm so good. 1183 00:43:32,945 --> 00:43:34,085 It has nothing to do with that. 1184 00:43:34,585 --> 00:43:36,605 It has to do with, I'm not afraid of you. 1185 00:43:36,985 --> 00:43:38,005 I'm not afraid of where you've been. 1186 00:43:38,025 --> 00:43:39,685 I'm not afraid of what you've done. I love you. 1187 00:43:40,355 --> 00:43:43,205 More important than that, God loves you. 1188 00:43:43,625 --> 00:43:46,765 And then I've, I've done worked really hard to teach him 1189 00:43:46,835 --> 00:43:49,365 what I, I would call sort of this bootcamp message about 1190 00:43:49,365 --> 00:43:50,605 how God's love is. 1191 00:43:50,865 --> 00:43:53,525 You know, we create false gods God who judges me 1192 00:43:53,525 --> 00:43:55,685 and checklists me and punishes me, 1193 00:43:55,685 --> 00:43:57,365 and is just waiting for me to do something wrong. 1194 00:43:57,425 --> 00:44:01,005 And, and it's by grace we're saved after all we can do. 1195 00:44:02,205 --> 00:44:05,005 I believe Stephen Robinson's explanation of what that means, 1196 00:44:05,175 --> 00:44:07,125 after all, we can do so. 1197 00:44:08,145 --> 00:44:11,925 The atonement, God's love is not a reward 1198 00:44:11,985 --> 00:44:13,085 for doing something good. 1199 00:44:13,795 --> 00:44:16,525 It's not that, you know, the cherry on top of the Sunday, 1200 00:44:16,585 --> 00:44:18,685 as Robinson says, it's everything. 1201 00:44:19,075 --> 00:44:20,805 It's everything. He's not waiting for me 1202 00:44:20,805 --> 00:44:22,085 to meet him halfway. 1203 00:44:22,475 --> 00:44:24,605 It's, he's not waiting for me to do my part. 1204 00:44:24,745 --> 00:44:25,845 His love is there. 1205 00:44:26,585 --> 00:44:29,125 And what changes isn't his love for me as we know, 1206 00:44:29,185 --> 00:44:32,845 but my ability to respond to his love, my ability 1207 00:44:32,865 --> 00:44:34,125 to accept his love. 1208 00:44:34,235 --> 00:44:35,685 - What advice would you give to a new bishop 1209 00:44:35,865 --> 00:44:37,245 who maybe doesn't have that history 1210 00:44:37,245 --> 00:44:39,845 but he, that he wants to gain the same level of trust that, 1211 00:44:39,945 --> 00:44:41,125 uh, maybe you've been able to gain? 1212 00:44:41,125 --> 00:44:42,285 What, how, how would you coach them 1213 00:44:42,285 --> 00:44:44,085 through creating that same dynamic? 1214 00:44:44,565 --> 00:44:47,405 - I would hope that their, uh, water stake has, uh, 1215 00:44:47,665 --> 00:44:48,885 has an a RP group. 1216 00:44:49,605 --> 00:44:50,685 I would invite them to attend. 1217 00:44:50,765 --> 00:44:53,365 I would invite, you know, when you look, go to an a RP group 1218 00:44:53,365 --> 00:44:54,965 and you go, oh, there's six people here. 1219 00:44:55,145 --> 00:44:56,285 You're going, oh, this is good. 1220 00:44:56,285 --> 00:44:58,325 We've got the only six people in the entire stake 1221 00:44:58,395 --> 00:45:00,485 that have a pornography problem all together. 1222 00:45:00,505 --> 00:45:02,565 And I'm glad everybody else is safe. You know, . 1223 00:45:02,615 --> 00:45:04,325 Right. So that's not true. 1224 00:45:04,785 --> 00:45:07,085 But as a bishop, they will have access 1225 00:45:07,145 --> 00:45:08,765 to people with addictions. 1226 00:45:09,275 --> 00:45:10,965 Take them to an A RP meeting, 1227 00:45:11,225 --> 00:45:12,885 attend an AA meeting with them. 1228 00:45:12,985 --> 00:45:15,165 And when you go lose the tie and, 1229 00:45:15,225 --> 00:45:17,205 and just be cur, don't be Bishop Frankham. 1230 00:45:17,205 --> 00:45:19,005 Yeah. Just, just go and, 1231 00:45:19,105 --> 00:45:21,885 and try to understand, like I did early in my recovery. 1232 00:45:21,965 --> 00:45:25,165 I read 20 books about, 1233 00:45:25,385 --> 00:45:28,525 or buy people who were addicted or about addictions. 1234 00:45:29,105 --> 00:45:31,525 And you'll begin to understand and see the patterns. 1235 00:45:31,525 --> 00:45:34,005 You don't have to live it to understand it, I don't think. 1236 00:45:34,145 --> 00:45:36,765 But you do have to try. You do have to want to understand. 1237 00:45:36,915 --> 00:45:39,125 - Yeah. I think just like taking the steps 1238 00:45:39,125 --> 00:45:42,005 of at least trying to engage in that dialogue, whether it's, 1239 00:45:42,105 --> 00:45:44,245 uh, even if you mess up, it's like, you know, 1240 00:45:44,745 --> 00:45:45,805 all right, that didn't go well. 1241 00:45:45,825 --> 00:45:48,205 I'm gonna try again and we'll regroup here and Right. 1242 00:45:48,305 --> 00:45:50,965 And try again. And invite maybe a speaker to come. Or 1243 00:45:51,115 --> 00:45:53,405 - Have you ever had a friend with a parent or a spouse 1244 00:45:53,505 --> 00:45:54,525 or something pass away? 1245 00:45:54,635 --> 00:45:56,125 Yeah. And you say something stupid. 1246 00:45:56,425 --> 00:45:57,765 Oh, I'm I'm, uh, you know, 1247 00:45:57,785 --> 00:45:59,045 and then you go, oh, I didn't say that. 1248 00:45:59,045 --> 00:46:01,285 Right. Well, I'll never say anything ever again to somebody 1249 00:46:01,285 --> 00:46:03,405 who has a loved one pass away. 1250 00:46:03,425 --> 00:46:04,565 No, that's not the way you do it. 1251 00:46:04,565 --> 00:46:05,605 You just keep trying 1252 00:46:05,905 --> 00:46:07,525 and you keep showing them that you're present, 1253 00:46:07,555 --> 00:46:08,885 that you're there, that you care, 1254 00:46:09,585 --> 00:46:12,085 and that whatever it is, we can work through this. Yeah. 1255 00:46:12,315 --> 00:46:13,925 - Yeah. That's awesome. Um, 1256 00:46:15,065 --> 00:46:17,205 and then just the, I mean, the response, 1257 00:46:17,225 --> 00:46:19,445 did you feel like your schedule filled up as, 1258 00:46:19,445 --> 00:46:20,685 as a bishop or, uh, 1259 00:46:20,835 --> 00:46:21,835 - Some, yeah. 1260 00:46:21,835 --> 00:46:24,605 Some, uh, there's, there's still some people out there 1261 00:46:24,605 --> 00:46:27,405 that think that I'm not talking to them or about them or, 1262 00:46:27,785 --> 00:46:29,725 or that God's help isn't available for them. 1263 00:46:30,265 --> 00:46:33,965 Uh, still a lot of fear around opening up and being honest. 1264 00:46:34,545 --> 00:46:36,605 Um, but yes, yes. 1265 00:46:36,605 --> 00:46:37,645 Yeah, I've had a great, and, 1266 00:46:37,945 --> 00:46:39,485 and I've had, again, it's not about me, 1267 00:46:40,545 --> 00:46:42,165 but I've had a couple of people say, sure. 1268 00:46:42,185 --> 00:46:44,885 I'm glad you're my bishop. I sure, I'm glad you get this. 1269 00:46:44,945 --> 00:46:46,485 I'm glad you've walked this path 1270 00:46:46,505 --> 00:46:48,485 and recognized some of the, some 1271 00:46:48,485 --> 00:46:49,885 of the Yeah. Stones along the way. 1272 00:46:50,145 --> 00:46:51,525 - I'm glad you say that. You know, it's not about me. 1273 00:46:51,685 --> 00:46:53,125 'cause it, it would probably be really easy 1274 00:46:53,225 --> 00:46:55,165 to make it about you 'cause it's your story, you know, 1275 00:46:55,265 --> 00:46:58,045 but it's more of like articulate it in the frame of, 1276 00:46:58,075 --> 00:47:02,005 this is my inter, this is my interaction with the divine 1277 00:47:02,005 --> 00:47:05,605 or with with Christ, and this is what he did for me. 1278 00:47:05,705 --> 00:47:07,485 And why don't you come to 1279 00:47:07,485 --> 00:47:08,485 - My office? 1280 00:47:08,485 --> 00:47:09,885 He'll do it for you. He'll do for you. Exactly. 1281 00:47:10,075 --> 00:47:12,645 This was my interaction. This is how he changed my heart. 1282 00:47:12,995 --> 00:47:14,805 Yeah. This is how he helped me heal and recover. 1283 00:47:15,545 --> 00:47:17,045 And through healing and recovery, 1284 00:47:17,205 --> 00:47:20,165 I eventually chief sobriety over 14 years now. 1285 00:47:20,165 --> 00:47:22,045 Mm-Hmm. . But I don't carry a 14 year coin. 1286 00:47:22,045 --> 00:47:25,925 Yeah. . And he will change your heart too. Yeah. 1287 00:47:26,105 --> 00:47:27,725 You are not beyond his help. Yeah. 1288 00:47:27,785 --> 00:47:29,085 You are not beyond his reach. 1289 00:47:29,555 --> 00:47:32,405 - Yeah. That's awesome. Does anything scare you like being a 1290 00:47:32,405 --> 00:47:33,565 bishop with, with your story? 1291 00:47:33,725 --> 00:47:36,245 I mean, do you, do you, the only thing say guess yourself 1292 00:47:36,345 --> 00:47:38,805 or do, are do you worry about relapse? I mean, any of that? 1293 00:47:39,485 --> 00:47:41,725 - I literally still live one day at a time. Yeah. 1294 00:47:42,365 --> 00:47:45,285 I feel like almo where he said 1295 00:47:45,285 --> 00:47:48,005 that he could remember the pain of his sins no more. 1296 00:47:48,725 --> 00:47:52,165 I still remember my sins, but the pain part is gone. 1297 00:47:52,785 --> 00:47:54,725 And you remember when the, when the Lamanites had, 1298 00:47:54,725 --> 00:47:56,125 were pounding on the knee fights 1299 00:47:56,705 --> 00:48:00,045 and God made the knee fights burdens light. 1300 00:48:00,105 --> 00:48:01,805 Mm. Yeah. But he did not remove them. 1301 00:48:02,545 --> 00:48:04,845 So I understand that I could fall again tomorrow. 1302 00:48:05,485 --> 00:48:07,805 I understand that. I don't fear that 1303 00:48:07,955 --> 00:48:11,565 because, um, I have a lot of tools to help me cope with it. 1304 00:48:11,585 --> 00:48:13,205 Now, my biggest fear 1305 00:48:13,205 --> 00:48:15,405 as a bishop is blowing it with these kids. 1306 00:48:15,865 --> 00:48:17,325 But see, that's pride based too. 1307 00:48:17,325 --> 00:48:20,405 Because it's not about me, it's about the savior. 1308 00:48:20,665 --> 00:48:22,725 And so if I can just keep pointing them that way, 1309 00:48:23,155 --> 00:48:25,005 just keep pointing them that way. 1310 00:48:25,345 --> 00:48:27,485 That's the whole purpose of sharing, you know, 1311 00:48:27,855 --> 00:48:31,485 heard this saying it, it's not helpful to share, 1312 00:48:32,345 --> 00:48:34,605 to compare wounds most of the time. 1313 00:48:35,265 --> 00:48:37,925 It sometimes is helpful to share wounds. 1314 00:48:38,505 --> 00:48:40,365 So not comparing 'em, but sharing them sometimes. 1315 00:48:40,705 --> 00:48:42,565 And for them to know that, you know, 1316 00:48:42,625 --> 00:48:44,085 it can, there's a place to go. 1317 00:48:44,115 --> 00:48:45,285 Yeah. There's a place to find healing. 1318 00:48:45,475 --> 00:48:47,485 - Yeah. So true. What would you say 1319 00:48:47,505 --> 00:48:49,805 to maybe some stake presence listening that, 1320 00:48:49,805 --> 00:48:50,925 uh, well, let, let me back up. 1321 00:48:50,925 --> 00:48:53,725 And I remember as a bishop, I, I'd have this, uh, 1322 00:48:54,275 --> 00:48:55,445 this exercise I went through, 1323 00:48:55,505 --> 00:48:58,405 I'd call it the dark horse candidate, where maybe we, 1324 00:48:58,505 --> 00:49:01,525 we were, as a bishop Rick, we were together trying to think 1325 00:49:01,645 --> 00:49:04,365 of names or individuals to call to different positions. 1326 00:49:04,385 --> 00:49:06,765 And sometimes they were, you know, suggesting a name 1327 00:49:06,865 --> 00:49:08,885 as an elcor president, the state president or whatever. 1328 00:49:08,885 --> 00:49:11,525 Right. And I'd often turn to my Bishop Berg 1329 00:49:11,525 --> 00:49:13,245 and saying, okay, I need a dark horse candidate. 1330 00:49:13,275 --> 00:49:15,805 Like, who is just, that's crazy idea, right? 1331 00:49:15,805 --> 00:49:18,485 Because I think there's this principle of like, you sort 1332 00:49:18,485 --> 00:49:20,885 of have to like, push against revelation 1333 00:49:21,025 --> 00:49:22,165 in order for it to push back. 1334 00:49:22,265 --> 00:49:23,565 So I'm gonna say, I'm, I'm 1335 00:49:23,565 --> 00:49:24,685 gonna, what do you think about this? 1336 00:49:24,785 --> 00:49:26,925 God, you know, what about is, is this crazy enough 1337 00:49:26,925 --> 00:49:28,645 that sometimes you would come back 1338 00:49:28,645 --> 00:49:30,445 and be like, I'm glad you asked 1339 00:49:30,445 --> 00:49:32,565 because I know you wouldn't have picked that person. 1340 00:49:32,865 --> 00:49:35,285 But I think that's a good idea. And then I really 1341 00:49:35,285 --> 00:49:37,005 - Like that, Kurt, - Some beautiful things happen. 1342 00:49:37,105 --> 00:49:40,045 So what would you say to state presidents 1343 00:49:40,045 --> 00:49:41,885 who maybe leave some of these individuals off the list 1344 00:49:41,885 --> 00:49:43,245 because they have that history? 1345 00:49:43,875 --> 00:49:46,125 - Well, I really like the way you phrased that 1346 00:49:46,125 --> 00:49:48,525 because God's gonna respond to what you take to God. 1347 00:49:49,275 --> 00:49:52,525 It's rare that he says, thou shalt call this man 1348 00:49:52,545 --> 00:49:54,285 or this woman, but he's gonna respond 1349 00:49:54,285 --> 00:49:55,885 to the candidates that you provide to him. 1350 00:49:56,425 --> 00:49:58,125 Uh, normally, so I would say 1351 00:49:58,125 --> 00:49:59,725 to the state president, take a chance. 1352 00:50:00,195 --> 00:50:03,165 It's funny you think that, you know the history of him 1353 00:50:03,165 --> 00:50:06,125 and him and him and you are disqualifying them 1354 00:50:06,125 --> 00:50:07,725 because you think you know your history. 1355 00:50:08,275 --> 00:50:10,125 Well, him and him and him 1356 00:50:10,125 --> 00:50:13,125 and him over there maybe haven't just fully disclosed all 1357 00:50:13,125 --> 00:50:14,285 of their history yet. 1358 00:50:14,295 --> 00:50:18,485 Right. Right. And I would always take the honest guy who's 1359 00:50:18,485 --> 00:50:20,765 come out and talked about it over the guy 1360 00:50:20,795 --> 00:50:23,525 that has not been able to confront it himself, 1361 00:50:23,525 --> 00:50:25,005 because there's more out there than we know. 1362 00:50:25,235 --> 00:50:27,285 - Yeah. And that's, uh, breaks my, I know 1363 00:50:27,285 --> 00:50:29,045 that there are probably bishops out there, 1364 00:50:29,045 --> 00:50:31,725 relief site presidents, individuals who are struggling 1365 00:50:31,725 --> 00:50:34,845 with shame filled, you know, transgressions 1366 00:50:34,845 --> 00:50:36,645 that they don't know what to do with. 1367 00:50:36,665 --> 00:50:38,805 And so they sort of put on that pose 1368 00:50:38,825 --> 00:50:40,485 or that facade as they just say, well, 1369 00:50:40,485 --> 00:50:42,405 I'm just gonna carry on and maybe I'm 1370 00:50:42,405 --> 00:50:43,405 - Gonna keep trying. 1371 00:50:43,545 --> 00:50:44,565 I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep trying. 1372 00:50:44,585 --> 00:50:46,645 And that's not an evil intent. Right. 1373 00:50:46,645 --> 00:50:47,645 It's just that we don't know. 1374 00:50:47,645 --> 00:50:50,885 Another way to carry on, I told you about my quilt idea 1375 00:50:50,885 --> 00:50:52,525 that, that I lived my life as 1376 00:50:52,755 --> 00:50:55,605 with all these beautiful squares to my quilt. 1377 00:50:55,865 --> 00:50:59,005 But there was just this one inky black tarry filthy 1378 00:50:59,425 --> 00:51:00,725 square on my quilt. 1379 00:51:00,725 --> 00:51:02,325 And as long as I kept it in the shadows, 1380 00:51:02,325 --> 00:51:05,365 then I could live in this big, beautiful, bright colored, 1381 00:51:05,595 --> 00:51:06,605 wonderful quilt. 1382 00:51:06,905 --> 00:51:08,205 And then when I hit rock bottom, 1383 00:51:08,205 --> 00:51:09,885 then somebody put my quilt in the washer 1384 00:51:09,885 --> 00:51:11,085 and all that ink contar. 1385 00:51:11,235 --> 00:51:12,965 Yeah. Contaminated the whole thing. 1386 00:51:12,965 --> 00:51:14,765 And the savior gave me a new quilt. 1387 00:51:14,875 --> 00:51:17,205 - Yeah. And, uh, a few thoughts come to mind. 1388 00:51:17,205 --> 00:51:20,085 Just the exercise of like, you know, yeah, maybe, 1389 00:51:20,815 --> 00:51:23,005 maybe you don't wanna roll the dice on this individual 1390 00:51:23,285 --> 00:51:24,405 'cause you're not sure about his history. 1391 00:51:24,405 --> 00:51:26,685 Then well call him up, take him out to lunch and sit down 1392 00:51:26,685 --> 00:51:27,965 and say, tell me the 1393 00:51:27,965 --> 00:51:29,525 story. Tell me your story. Right. Yeah. 1394 00:51:29,675 --> 00:51:31,885 - It's - Important. I mean, just sitting here talking 1395 00:51:31,885 --> 00:51:34,565 with you and hearing you is like, I have no worry with, 1396 00:51:34,745 --> 00:51:36,565 you know, Bishop Ho Hotel, uh, you know, 1397 00:51:36,565 --> 00:51:37,845 running the show here, and like you 1398 00:51:37,845 --> 00:51:39,245 said, all of us could fall. 1399 00:51:39,295 --> 00:51:42,325 Right. It can happen, but what a great experience. 1400 00:51:42,325 --> 00:51:44,165 And then the trust you're able to build, how you 1401 00:51:44,845 --> 00:51:46,405 leverage some of that history and the redemption 1402 00:51:46,405 --> 00:51:47,485 you've, you've shared. 1403 00:51:47,665 --> 00:51:49,725 So that's awesome. That's great. 1404 00:51:49,785 --> 00:51:53,165 And, uh, and just the idea of recognizing these individuals 1405 00:51:53,165 --> 00:51:55,645 who may have a history but have overcome it to some extent, 1406 00:51:55,645 --> 00:51:57,085 through the grace of Jesus Christ. 1407 00:51:57,085 --> 00:51:59,605 Like they're practiced in being open 1408 00:51:59,745 --> 00:52:02,165 and saying like, maybe they'll be more likely 1409 00:52:02,165 --> 00:52:03,485 to call up the steak bread and say, you know what? 1410 00:52:03,485 --> 00:52:05,725 This week's a tough week. I have this history 1411 00:52:05,725 --> 00:52:07,365 and I'm a little more, uh, vulnerable right now. 1412 00:52:07,425 --> 00:52:08,485 Can I connect with you 1413 00:52:08,545 --> 00:52:10,365 or I'm, I want you to know I'm connecting 1414 00:52:10,365 --> 00:52:11,765 with others, or things like that. Right. 1415 00:52:12,035 --> 00:52:13,885 - Well, you know, the thing about a porn addiction too is 1416 00:52:13,885 --> 00:52:15,765 that we directly associate it with a sex addiction. 1417 00:52:15,765 --> 00:52:18,445 So we soon, if we assume if a person has looked at a 1418 00:52:18,445 --> 00:52:20,565 playboy, then he's also had affairs or something like that. 1419 00:52:20,565 --> 00:52:21,885 Yeah, yeah. You know, we go that way. 1420 00:52:21,915 --> 00:52:23,405 Well, the person that cuts, 1421 00:52:23,425 --> 00:52:25,605 are you gonna keep them from holding a calling, 1422 00:52:25,745 --> 00:52:27,005 the person that pulls their hair out? 1423 00:52:27,005 --> 00:52:29,205 Are you gonna keep them from holding a calling? 1424 00:52:29,305 --> 00:52:31,725 The person that, um, has an anger issue 1425 00:52:31,725 --> 00:52:32,845 that always has to be right. 1426 00:52:32,845 --> 00:52:34,525 That, that gambles is 1427 00:52:34,525 --> 00:52:37,565 that completely disqualifying them from serving anywhere. 1428 00:52:37,625 --> 00:52:40,005 Mm-Hmm. . And so porn 1429 00:52:40,005 --> 00:52:41,165 of addiction isn't about sex. 1430 00:52:42,235 --> 00:52:46,005 There's lots of good people who have a lot to offer 1431 00:52:46,395 --> 00:52:48,885 that are struggling and are overcoming. Yeah. 1432 00:52:49,195 --> 00:52:50,325 - Yeah. - Try 'em. 1433 00:52:50,585 --> 00:52:52,005 - All right. I'm turning my studio audience. 1434 00:52:52,065 --> 00:52:56,005 Any questions I've missed or things I should ask or ask? 1435 00:52:56,005 --> 00:52:59,095 Did we cover it? Do you still work the 12 step? 1436 00:52:59,575 --> 00:53:01,615 - I do. And, um, I've been 1437 00:53:01,635 --> 00:53:03,655 to 12 step meetings with some of my people. 1438 00:53:04,215 --> 00:53:08,215 I don't attend weekly, uh, but especially steps 10, 11 1439 00:53:08,235 --> 00:53:09,695 and 12, kind of the maintenance steps. 1440 00:53:10,535 --> 00:53:14,455 I bought a couple of hundred one day at a time coins, 1441 00:53:14,515 --> 00:53:15,535 and at that fireside, 1442 00:53:15,535 --> 00:53:17,695 and the one we have the end of this month, the end of May. 1443 00:53:17,695 --> 00:53:20,415 Mm-Hmm. . I will give a one Day at a Time coin 1444 00:53:20,415 --> 00:53:22,495 to every single one of my ward members. 1445 00:53:22,595 --> 00:53:24,495 That's cool. Telling them again, the story 1446 00:53:24,495 --> 00:53:25,725 and reminding 'em, you only live 1447 00:53:25,725 --> 00:53:26,885 the gospel one day at a time. 1448 00:53:26,885 --> 00:53:28,605 You can only stay sober one day at a time. 1449 00:53:28,625 --> 00:53:30,005 You can only stay clean one day. 1450 00:53:30,135 --> 00:53:31,685 Everything that is important 1451 00:53:31,785 --> 00:53:33,885 to do in life can only be done one day at a time. 1452 00:53:34,265 --> 00:53:35,725 You cannot re-litigate the past. 1453 00:53:36,265 --> 00:53:39,365 You cannot predict, or, or, or Yes, we set goals, 1454 00:53:39,385 --> 00:53:40,885 but you can't live in the future. 1455 00:53:41,625 --> 00:53:45,165 You can only succeed today with God's help. Yeah. 1456 00:53:45,165 --> 00:53:46,205 Today, one day at a time. 1457 00:53:46,305 --> 00:53:47,485 - And I love that. You know, going back 1458 00:53:47,485 --> 00:53:50,405 to your umbrella analogy, that you saw it as an umbrella 1459 00:53:50,465 --> 00:53:53,125 for everybody else, but then you discovered the umbrella was 1460 00:53:53,125 --> 00:53:55,205 over you the whole time, and now you're extending 1461 00:53:55,205 --> 00:53:58,045 that addiction or that brokenness umbrella to everybody, 1462 00:53:58,045 --> 00:53:59,445 because we all need the savior. 1463 00:53:59,445 --> 00:54:01,205 Exactly. We need to be under his umbrella. 1464 00:54:01,305 --> 00:54:02,405 So here's your coin. Right. 1465 00:54:02,405 --> 00:54:03,285 - That's the whole thing. That's right. 1466 00:54:03,305 --> 00:54:04,245 And so remember this. 1467 00:54:04,245 --> 00:54:06,205 Yeah. And every time I get in my pocket, it rattles 1468 00:54:06,205 --> 00:54:08,205 and I remember what I'm trying to do and why, 1469 00:54:08,465 --> 00:54:10,045 and what the source of the power is. So, 1470 00:54:10,145 --> 00:54:11,245 - So where do you get one day at Coin 1471 00:54:11,775 --> 00:54:12,775 - Coins? 1472 00:54:12,775 --> 00:54:15,645 Oh, well, uh, from recovery world.com. Nice. 1473 00:54:15,965 --> 00:54:17,005 - . And you order 'em in bulk 1474 00:54:17,005 --> 00:54:18,005 - Then? 1475 00:54:18,005 --> 00:54:18,245 I I get 'em about a hundred 1476 00:54:18,245 --> 00:54:19,325 at a time. Yeah. Oh, that's cool. 1477 00:54:19,425 --> 00:54:22,965 - That's great. Any other questions I missed here? 1478 00:54:23,035 --> 00:54:24,205 Come up here and talk to the mic. 1479 00:54:24,205 --> 00:54:26,445 What you can tell who you are 1480 00:54:26,445 --> 00:54:27,685 and where you're from, but you don't have to. 1481 00:54:28,405 --> 00:54:31,545 - Uh, Sean from Lehigh. Hi Sean. Uh, quick question. 1482 00:54:31,655 --> 00:54:33,145 What would you say 1483 00:54:33,245 --> 00:54:36,745 or advice would you give to friends, family, board members 1484 00:54:37,685 --> 00:54:41,465 of those who are in the circle of a recovering addict? 1485 00:54:42,325 --> 00:54:43,865 - Oh, that is a great question. 1486 00:54:43,925 --> 00:54:46,105 And really the bottom line is to love them 1487 00:54:47,265 --> 00:54:50,165 and to continue to point them towards the savior. 1488 00:54:50,805 --> 00:54:53,325 I realized as an addict that I was talking 1489 00:54:53,325 --> 00:54:55,205 to my wife about somebody was bugging me, you know, 1490 00:54:55,205 --> 00:54:56,605 is it in my addiction? 1491 00:54:57,165 --> 00:54:59,205 Somebody was bugging me in the ward one day, 1492 00:54:59,205 --> 00:55:00,525 and I said, I just, I don't 1493 00:55:00,525 --> 00:55:01,605 understand why are they like that? 1494 00:55:01,605 --> 00:55:02,565 And blah, blah, blah. And she 1495 00:55:02,565 --> 00:55:03,605 says, you know what your problem is? 1496 00:55:03,605 --> 00:55:04,925 She says, you don't love anybody 1497 00:55:04,925 --> 00:55:06,885 because you don't love yourself. 1498 00:55:07,505 --> 00:55:10,045 And I realized that that was eventually not, 1499 00:55:10,065 --> 00:55:12,285 not immediately, but realized that that was the key. 1500 00:55:12,585 --> 00:55:16,685 And so as I began to allow God's love to come to me, 1501 00:55:17,115 --> 00:55:20,205 this is the order it happened for me, then I was able 1502 00:55:20,265 --> 00:55:24,485 to eventually feel love back for God. 1503 00:55:25,225 --> 00:55:27,365 And then the most incredible thing happened 1504 00:55:27,365 --> 00:55:30,085 that I never thought would, I began to love myself, 1505 00:55:30,585 --> 00:55:31,645 but only in that order. 1506 00:55:31,925 --> 00:55:34,245 I could never love myself until I love God back. 1507 00:55:34,245 --> 00:55:37,645 And I could never love him until I accepted his love for me. 1508 00:55:38,145 --> 00:55:41,125 And then after I began to love myself, then I was able 1509 00:55:41,145 --> 00:55:43,125 to begin to love God's other children. 1510 00:55:43,305 --> 00:55:46,125 And so the answer to those that are in the circle 1511 00:55:46,745 --> 00:55:48,245 of Living family 1512 00:55:48,345 --> 00:55:50,685 and friend circle of those that are in addiction, is 1513 00:55:50,685 --> 00:55:54,725 to continue loving them, to continue showing grace for them 1514 00:55:55,465 --> 00:55:58,925 to continue to accept them, to continue 1515 00:55:58,925 --> 00:56:00,165 to connect with them. 1516 00:56:00,555 --> 00:56:02,085 They do not need to be isolated. 1517 00:56:02,115 --> 00:56:03,965 They don't need to be told it's wrong. 1518 00:56:04,155 --> 00:56:07,045 They get that they don't need to be rejected. 1519 00:56:07,315 --> 00:56:11,245 They need to be embraced, loved, accepted, held. 1520 00:56:11,675 --> 00:56:13,525 - Yeah. Any other questions? 1521 00:56:14,315 --> 00:56:17,855 - You mentioned that, uh, you, that bishops 1522 00:56:17,855 --> 00:56:21,255 and, uh, you know, the leadership shouldn't forget about the 1523 00:56:21,255 --> 00:56:23,095 victims, the true victims. 1524 00:56:23,775 --> 00:56:25,425 Victims. What would you recommend, 1525 00:56:25,855 --> 00:56:27,665 what suggestions would you recommend 1526 00:56:27,665 --> 00:56:29,265 to really help those victims? 1527 00:56:30,055 --> 00:56:31,385 - Well, it should. And by victims, 1528 00:56:31,565 --> 00:56:33,305 I'm talking about the spouse of the addict, right? 1529 00:56:33,415 --> 00:56:36,665 Yeah. And remember that I believe that the addict himself 1530 00:56:36,725 --> 00:56:38,185 or herself is a victim. 1531 00:56:38,695 --> 00:56:41,025 Okay. But when we're talking about the spouse 1532 00:56:41,085 --> 00:56:44,385 of the porn addict or the sex addict specifically, it starts 1533 00:56:44,415 --> 00:56:48,345 with interviewing them, offering them blessings, checking in 1534 00:56:48,345 --> 00:56:50,905 with them, making sure the relief society president's aware 1535 00:56:51,095 --> 00:56:53,945 that they, I see you, I see you. 1536 00:56:54,335 --> 00:56:56,065 Instead of, I'm gonna work on him, 1537 00:56:56,605 --> 00:56:57,665 and I hope you're okay too. 1538 00:56:58,125 --> 00:56:59,225 It just gets forgotten. 1539 00:56:59,285 --> 00:57:01,505 Not that they're intentionally being ignored, 1540 00:57:01,845 --> 00:57:04,145 but they are being ignored that that spouse. 1541 00:57:04,445 --> 00:57:05,985 So it starts with frequent. 1542 00:57:06,325 --> 00:57:08,385 If you're seeing the addict once a week, 1543 00:57:08,775 --> 00:57:11,785 initially you should be seeing the spouse once a week, 1544 00:57:12,285 --> 00:57:14,105 and you should talk to them separately 1545 00:57:14,105 --> 00:57:16,305 and find out where their at and where their heart is 1546 00:57:16,305 --> 00:57:17,705 and what their feelings are. 1547 00:57:18,445 --> 00:57:20,825 And, uh, there should be a lot of dialogue 1548 00:57:20,825 --> 00:57:23,225 between the priesthood leader and the spouse. 1549 00:57:23,685 --> 00:57:25,865 - And I, I remember from my experience as a bishop like 1550 00:57:25,865 --> 00:57:27,745 that just how important that relationship was 1551 00:57:27,775 --> 00:57:30,385 that I remember Phoenix is where I thought, okay, 1552 00:57:30,425 --> 00:57:31,465 I need to reach out to the wife. 1553 00:57:31,485 --> 00:57:33,025 But the wife was like, you know, going through, 1554 00:57:33,025 --> 00:57:34,785 through all this betrayal trauma, I was like, okay, 1555 00:57:34,815 --> 00:57:38,465 because of you husband, now I have to go talk with a bishop. 1556 00:57:38,705 --> 00:57:40,305 I don't even know him. It's so awkward. 1557 00:57:40,325 --> 00:57:41,945 The last thing I wanna do is walk in that office. 1558 00:57:42,085 --> 00:57:43,665 And so I would feel like they 1559 00:57:43,665 --> 00:57:44,785 would sort of be, I'm, I'm fine. 1560 00:57:44,845 --> 00:57:47,025 I'm fine. Right? So sometimes it's a long haul. 1561 00:57:47,025 --> 00:57:49,425 You sort of have to keep connecting and encouraging 1562 00:57:49,485 --> 00:57:50,745 and building relationship there. 1563 00:57:50,745 --> 00:57:52,225 Hopefully you have it, you're already doing that. 1564 00:57:52,285 --> 00:57:54,745 So when these things blow up that those relationships 1565 00:57:54,745 --> 00:57:55,745 - Right. 1566 00:57:55,745 --> 00:57:56,385 Some of these things come up as surprises, 1567 00:57:56,405 --> 00:57:58,105 and maybe the bishop hasn't established a 1568 00:57:58,105 --> 00:57:59,225 relationship with either one. 1569 00:57:59,225 --> 00:58:01,265 Yeah, right. A deep relationship yet. 1570 00:58:01,485 --> 00:58:02,905 The other thing is for the bishop 1571 00:58:02,925 --> 00:58:05,665 or state president to offer counseling services. Yeah, 1572 00:58:05,665 --> 00:58:06,665 - Right. 1573 00:58:06,665 --> 00:58:07,385 Therapy's huge and all this. Yep. 1574 00:58:07,385 --> 00:58:10,065 - Yeah. It matters. It matters. 12 steps therapy 1575 00:58:10,805 --> 00:58:12,865 - And someone who's not just any therapist, 1576 00:58:12,885 --> 00:58:15,185 but you know, really gets someone who's maybe has some 1577 00:58:15,185 --> 00:58:16,905 experience with this type of situation, 1578 00:58:16,905 --> 00:58:18,145 - Betrayal, trauma, you mentioned 1579 00:58:18,145 --> 00:58:19,865 that phrase is a real thing. 1580 00:58:20,055 --> 00:58:22,465 It's real. And just like addiction is real. Yeah. 1581 00:58:22,465 --> 00:58:23,985 And so, yeah, we need to, we need 1582 00:58:23,985 --> 00:58:25,705 to be more aware of that, I believe. Nice. 1583 00:58:26,165 --> 00:58:28,305 - All right. I got one more question for you, Mike. Oh. 1584 00:58:28,575 --> 00:58:32,545 Just reflecting back, you know, in your, in your experience 1585 00:58:32,565 --> 00:58:35,305 as a leader, you know, obviously more formal leadership, 1586 00:58:35,405 --> 00:58:37,905 but your experience being a leader in this addiction 1587 00:58:38,185 --> 00:58:41,025 recovery world, how has being a leader helped you become a 1588 00:58:41,025 --> 00:58:42,385 better follower of Jesus Christ? 1589 00:58:42,965 --> 00:58:46,465 - Oh, that's important because as I've come to learn 1590 00:58:46,645 --> 00:58:49,345 who he really is and not who I thought he 1591 00:58:49,345 --> 00:58:51,505 and the father were, you know, Kurt, 1592 00:58:51,565 --> 00:58:52,625 I'm not sure if that's the order. 1593 00:58:52,805 --> 00:58:54,225 I'm not sure if being a leader helped 1594 00:58:54,225 --> 00:58:55,345 me be a better follower. 1595 00:58:55,865 --> 00:58:59,225 I think that learning to be a true follower of him is 1596 00:58:59,225 --> 00:59:01,865 what has helped me to be, if I have any skills as a leader, 1597 00:59:01,985 --> 00:59:03,705 I think that's what's helped me to be a good leader, 1598 00:59:03,935 --> 00:59:05,585 understanding who he is. 1599 00:59:05,585 --> 00:59:07,785 You know, Joseph Smith said, we have to know the true nature 1600 00:59:07,785 --> 00:59:10,585 of God in order to have faith in him. 1601 00:59:11,245 --> 00:59:14,465 And most of my life, I didn't understand who God was. 1602 00:59:14,625 --> 00:59:16,745 I had a false God placed up there, 1603 00:59:17,205 --> 00:59:18,705 and that's who I thought I worshiped 1604 00:59:18,705 --> 00:59:20,505 and who was gonna punish me and who was after me. 1605 00:59:21,185 --> 00:59:24,965 But entering recovery, finding healing has allowed me 1606 00:59:24,965 --> 00:59:26,245 to be a better follower. 1607 00:59:26,705 --> 00:59:30,125 And that has allowed me just sharing that testimony of 1608 00:59:30,145 --> 00:59:33,005 who God is and who the savior is, has allowed me to be 1609 00:59:33,665 --> 00:59:35,485 for 11 months a decent leader. 1610 00:59:35,605 --> 00:59:36,605 I think 1611 00:59:39,635 --> 00:59:42,285 - That concludes this episode of the Leading Saints podcast. 1612 00:59:42,515 --> 00:59:43,805 We'd love to hear from you about 1613 00:59:43,835 --> 00:59:45,325 your questions or thoughts or comments. 1614 00:59:45,465 --> 00:59:47,925 You can either leave a comment on the, uh, post related 1615 00:59:48,065 --> 00:59:50,685 to this episode@leadingsaints.org 1616 00:59:50,685 --> 00:59:52,645 or go to leading saints.org/contact 1617 00:59:53,025 --> 00:59:54,765 and send us your perspective or questions. 1618 00:59:55,105 --> 00:59:56,165 If there's other episodes 1619 00:59:56,165 --> 00:59:58,765 or topics you'd like to hear on the Leading Saints Podcast, 1620 00:59:58,945 --> 01:00:00,685 go to leading saints.org/contact 1621 01:00:00,945 --> 01:00:02,765 and share with us the information there. 1622 01:00:03,065 --> 01:00:04,965 And we would love for you to share this 1623 01:00:04,965 --> 01:00:07,445 with any individual you think this would apply to, 1624 01:00:07,445 --> 01:00:09,525 especially maybe individuals in your Word Council 1625 01:00:09,625 --> 01:00:11,245 or other leaders that you may know 1626 01:00:11,345 --> 01:00:12,925 who would really appreciate the 1627 01:00:12,925 --> 01:00:14,045 perspectives that we discussed. 1628 01:00:14,465 --> 01:00:17,445 And I remind you once again to text the word lead 1629 01:00:17,585 --> 01:00:21,045 to 4 7 4 7 4 7 in order to subscribe 1630 01:00:21,265 --> 01:00:23,565 to the Leading Saints Weekly newsletter.