WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.919 --> 00:00:04.480 - Alright. Here's our goal, folks. Leading Saints is 2 00:00:04.480 --> 00:00:06.960 - no longer a podcast. Well, obviously we are 3 00:00:06.960 --> 00:00:09.519 - a podcast. We will continue to podcast, but 4 00:00:09.519 --> 00:00:12.400 - we're really shifting our focus over to Zion 5 00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:14.179 - Lab, which is an online community 6 00:00:14.564 --> 00:00:16.904 - put on and developed by leading saints. 7 00:00:17.285 --> 00:00:18.725 - And this is where we want to go 8 00:00:18.725 --> 00:00:20.024 - and gather the masses 9 00:00:20.324 --> 00:00:23.204 - and share ideas about leadership, share ideas about 10 00:00:23.204 --> 00:00:26.024 - different callings, share ideas about building Zion. 11 00:00:26.324 --> 00:00:27.844 - And this is the place that we want 12 00:00:27.844 --> 00:00:30.105 - to make online, where all things are discussed, 13 00:00:30.379 --> 00:00:32.299 - great ideas are shared, and that we can 14 00:00:32.299 --> 00:00:34.780 - help one another in whatever calling we're in 15 00:00:34.780 --> 00:00:36.859 - or what calling we're not in to feel 16 00:00:36.859 --> 00:00:38.699 - like, you know, I've got purpose here. I 17 00:00:38.699 --> 00:00:40.619 - can really make a difference in shifting culture 18 00:00:40.619 --> 00:00:42.619 - in a better way or developing Zion in 19 00:00:42.619 --> 00:00:44.715 - my own corner of the kingdom. So join 20 00:00:44.715 --> 00:00:48.975 - us over at Zion lab at leadingsaints.org/zion. 21 00:00:49.115 --> 00:00:51.034 - And there, you can just jump in. It's 22 00:00:51.034 --> 00:00:53.454 - free to join and create a profile and 23 00:00:53.515 --> 00:00:55.435 - jump in and and look around and answer 24 00:00:55.435 --> 00:00:57.695 - some questions. Leave a comment, pose a question. 25 00:00:57.859 --> 00:00:59.460 - I think you'll benefit from the things we're 26 00:00:59.460 --> 00:01:01.799 - doing over at Zion Lab. So join us. 27 00:01:04.180 --> 00:01:06.019 - Before we jump into the content of this 28 00:01:06.019 --> 00:01:07.939 - episode, I kinda feel it's important that I 29 00:01:07.939 --> 00:01:09.939 - introduce myself. Now many of you have been 30 00:01:09.939 --> 00:01:12.924 - around a long time. You're well familiar with 31 00:01:12.924 --> 00:01:15.084 - my voice and the the with Leading Saints 32 00:01:15.084 --> 00:01:16.064 - as an organization. 33 00:01:16.444 --> 00:01:18.125 - But if you're not, well, my name is 34 00:01:18.125 --> 00:01:20.204 - Kurt Frankem, and I am the executive director 35 00:01:20.204 --> 00:01:22.604 - of Leading Saints and the podcast host. Now 36 00:01:22.604 --> 00:01:24.784 - Leading Saints is a nonprofit organization 37 00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:28.000 - dedicated helping Latter day Saints be better prepared 38 00:01:28.000 --> 00:01:30.000 - to lead, and we do that through, well, 39 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:32.399 - content creation like this podcast and many other 40 00:01:32.399 --> 00:01:34.259 - resources at leadingsaints.org. 41 00:01:34.319 --> 00:01:36.959 - And, we don't act like we have all 42 00:01:36.959 --> 00:01:39.394 - the answers or know exactly what a leader 43 00:01:39.394 --> 00:01:40.915 - should do or not do, but we like 44 00:01:40.915 --> 00:01:43.954 - to explore the concepts of leadership, the science 45 00:01:43.954 --> 00:01:46.594 - of leadership, what people are researching about leadership, 46 00:01:46.594 --> 00:01:48.515 - and see how we can apply them to 47 00:01:48.515 --> 00:01:50.674 - a Latter day Saint world. So here we 48 00:01:50.674 --> 00:01:50.879 - go. 49 00:01:53.840 --> 00:01:55.359 - Hey. I got another book for you to 50 00:01:55.359 --> 00:01:57.599 - read. It is called Pause. It's a book 51 00:01:57.599 --> 00:01:59.299 - by Sean and Anne Vanderhoven 52 00:01:59.759 --> 00:02:02.159 - who are part of the Weisman Group. Now 53 00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:04.239 - if you're not familiar with the Weisman Group, 54 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:05.859 - you may remember Liz Weisman 55 00:02:06.314 --> 00:02:08.314 - who, has been on the podcast so many 56 00:02:08.314 --> 00:02:11.194 - times. Just a remarkable thought leader. She's typically 57 00:02:11.194 --> 00:02:13.275 - in the more secular business world writing books 58 00:02:13.275 --> 00:02:14.014 - like Multipliers, 59 00:02:14.634 --> 00:02:16.334 - such a must read. And 60 00:02:16.875 --> 00:02:20.314 - so Sean works in Liz's office and has 61 00:02:20.314 --> 00:02:22.050 - done great work for years and years, and 62 00:02:22.050 --> 00:02:24.449 - I was excited to see Sean write a 63 00:02:24.449 --> 00:02:27.250 - book himself called Pause, How to Lead Brilliant 64 00:02:27.250 --> 00:02:29.489 - Work in a Busy World. And this is 65 00:02:29.489 --> 00:02:30.389 - such an applicable 66 00:02:31.009 --> 00:02:33.430 - book for leaders to read, not only for 67 00:02:33.489 --> 00:02:35.974 - the church context, but just for being a 68 00:02:35.974 --> 00:02:36.474 - professional 69 00:02:36.775 --> 00:02:37.895 - in 2026. 70 00:02:37.895 --> 00:02:40.294 - And so I highly recommend this book talking 71 00:02:40.294 --> 00:02:42.134 - about things as far as, like, delegation. How 72 00:02:42.134 --> 00:02:44.455 - do we really approach delegation in a way 73 00:02:44.455 --> 00:02:47.735 - that enables others and is an efficient way 74 00:02:47.735 --> 00:02:49.814 - of of getting work done? So often we 75 00:02:49.814 --> 00:02:53.150 - try and and fill our life with busyness, 76 00:02:53.689 --> 00:02:55.290 - and then we don't get much done because 77 00:02:55.290 --> 00:02:57.129 - we don't have much focus. And so Sean 78 00:02:57.129 --> 00:02:59.849 - does a remarkable job. Cowardened by his wife, 79 00:02:59.849 --> 00:03:02.330 - Anne, in breaking this down. And and there's 80 00:03:02.330 --> 00:03:05.084 - several principles in here that maybe aren't a 81 00:03:05.084 --> 00:03:07.805 - perfect fit in the church leadership realm, but 82 00:03:07.805 --> 00:03:09.344 - I love these types of leadership 83 00:03:09.805 --> 00:03:12.525 - books that bring principles to the table that 84 00:03:12.525 --> 00:03:13.025 - really 85 00:03:13.405 --> 00:03:16.205 - are applicable to the church leadership experience, and 86 00:03:16.205 --> 00:03:18.469 - you'll find that in this book called Pause. 87 00:03:18.469 --> 00:03:20.889 - So here's my interview with Sean Vanderhoven. 88 00:03:29.590 --> 00:03:31.604 - Sean, so when was the moment where you 89 00:03:31.604 --> 00:03:33.444 - knew you were gonna write this book? Oh, 90 00:03:33.444 --> 00:03:35.365 - let me think. The moment where I knew 91 00:03:35.365 --> 00:03:36.564 - I was gonna write it. Well, let me 92 00:03:36.564 --> 00:03:38.324 - tell you what. I I remember the moment 93 00:03:38.324 --> 00:03:40.245 - where I knew that I had an interesting 94 00:03:40.245 --> 00:03:41.705 - research project. Okay. 95 00:03:42.004 --> 00:03:44.550 - I was teaching a workshop in San Jose. 96 00:03:44.770 --> 00:03:45.169 - It's 97 00:03:45.889 --> 00:03:48.210 - I work with Liz Wiseman. You know her 98 00:03:48.210 --> 00:03:50.050 - work multipliers. It was a multipliers workshop. It 99 00:03:50.050 --> 00:03:52.290 - was for a cloud computing company. And we 100 00:03:52.290 --> 00:03:54.849 - were talking about this idea on how do 101 00:03:54.849 --> 00:03:56.849 - we sometimes as leaders, we have the best 102 00:03:56.849 --> 00:03:59.064 - intentions to get things done, and and we 103 00:03:59.064 --> 00:04:01.164 - were particularly talking about moving fast 104 00:04:01.625 --> 00:04:02.204 - and how 105 00:04:02.504 --> 00:04:04.185 - it can be the case where, as a 106 00:04:04.185 --> 00:04:06.264 - leader, you're moving so quick and you're responding 107 00:04:06.264 --> 00:04:08.344 - at light speed that you don't realize it, 108 00:04:08.344 --> 00:04:10.664 - that you just pass on this chaos and 109 00:04:10.664 --> 00:04:13.209 - lack of clarity and maybe even a false 110 00:04:13.209 --> 00:04:15.050 - sense of urgency to your team, and that 111 00:04:15.050 --> 00:04:16.110 - can be very distracting. 112 00:04:16.490 --> 00:04:18.970 - And we were thinking there's 200 people in 113 00:04:18.970 --> 00:04:20.649 - the room. This is for the chief marketing 114 00:04:20.649 --> 00:04:21.870 - officer's group. 115 00:04:22.329 --> 00:04:22.829 - And 116 00:04:23.129 --> 00:04:24.970 - in the middle of the conversation, which so 117 00:04:24.970 --> 00:04:26.729 - I'm standing at the the front of the 118 00:04:26.729 --> 00:04:29.504 - room. A fellow stands up. Let's call him 119 00:04:30.045 --> 00:04:32.285 - Jeff. Jeff stands up for a second, and 120 00:04:32.285 --> 00:04:34.685 - everyone you know, that normally doesn't happen where 121 00:04:34.685 --> 00:04:35.884 - it was clear that I was, you know, 122 00:04:35.884 --> 00:04:38.045 - kind of going leading the conversation. And he 123 00:04:38.045 --> 00:04:40.365 - stands up, and everyone looks at him, and 124 00:04:40.365 --> 00:04:42.509 - then he slams his hand on the table 125 00:04:42.670 --> 00:04:44.050 - and says, I'm so 126 00:04:44.670 --> 00:04:47.250 - frustrated right now. A few other choice words. 127 00:04:48.270 --> 00:04:50.110 - And everybody looks at me, you know, and 128 00:04:50.110 --> 00:04:51.310 - I I froze. I didn't know what to 129 00:04:51.310 --> 00:04:52.750 - do. You're like the facilitator. Like Yeah. I'm 130 00:04:52.750 --> 00:04:54.350 - the facilitator. And then everybody and then I 131 00:04:54.509 --> 00:04:56.350 - so I freeze luckily. Everyone looks back at 132 00:04:56.350 --> 00:04:58.375 - him, which felt like an eternity. 133 00:04:58.914 --> 00:05:00.834 - And then he's luckily in that space, he 134 00:05:00.834 --> 00:05:02.134 - elaborates, and he says, 135 00:05:02.435 --> 00:05:03.095 - you know, 136 00:05:04.274 --> 00:05:06.274 - I got here as a leader from doing 137 00:05:06.274 --> 00:05:08.834 - really great work, and I believe in this 138 00:05:08.834 --> 00:05:12.029 - need to have clarity and deep focus on 139 00:05:12.029 --> 00:05:14.110 - the things that matter most. But I can't 140 00:05:14.110 --> 00:05:16.350 - do that here. I just I'm taking we're 141 00:05:16.350 --> 00:05:19.550 - constantly changing directions. I'm taking on requests from 142 00:05:19.550 --> 00:05:23.089 - my peers. I'm delegating at light speed. And 143 00:05:23.389 --> 00:05:24.850 - he said, out loud, he said, 144 00:05:25.204 --> 00:05:27.225 - we're practically addicted to speed here. And 145 00:05:27.605 --> 00:05:29.524 - he goes, I just am passing on all 146 00:05:29.524 --> 00:05:31.925 - this chaos and craziness to my team. They're 147 00:05:31.925 --> 00:05:33.845 - distracted. They can't get deep. And as a 148 00:05:33.845 --> 00:05:35.845 - team, we're we're blunted. We're just not we're 149 00:05:35.845 --> 00:05:37.605 - not doing great work. So we had a 150 00:05:37.605 --> 00:05:40.084 - nice conversation about this, and so many people, 151 00:05:40.084 --> 00:05:42.029 - you know, said, yes. Us too. We feel 152 00:05:42.029 --> 00:05:44.830 - distracted. We're hyper connected. We're we're switching gears 153 00:05:44.830 --> 00:05:46.750 - all the time. And I I drove back 154 00:05:46.750 --> 00:05:49.069 - up the 101 to my place in Menlo 155 00:05:49.069 --> 00:05:51.710 - Park and couldn't stop thinking about this moment. 156 00:05:51.710 --> 00:05:53.710 - It was dramatic moment for a facilitator. Yeah. 157 00:05:53.710 --> 00:05:55.464 - Yeah. I'd say. And I thought, no. There's 158 00:05:55.464 --> 00:05:57.944 - an there's an interesting question there. So go 159 00:05:57.944 --> 00:05:59.464 - back just a little bit. Prior to this 160 00:05:59.464 --> 00:06:01.544 - experience, we had been doing some research asking 161 00:06:01.544 --> 00:06:03.785 - people what was the number one thing that 162 00:06:03.785 --> 00:06:05.724 - held them back from doing their best work. 163 00:06:05.785 --> 00:06:07.144 - And the number one thing that they said 164 00:06:07.144 --> 00:06:09.470 - was they couldn't get deep. They didn't have 165 00:06:09.470 --> 00:06:11.790 - the ability to focus on things for long 166 00:06:11.790 --> 00:06:13.810 - periods of time to get the momentum, 167 00:06:14.269 --> 00:06:15.389 - to get into it in a way where 168 00:06:15.389 --> 00:06:16.910 - you have the insights and you produce that 169 00:06:16.910 --> 00:06:18.189 - high quality work. You know how it is. 170 00:06:18.189 --> 00:06:21.230 - Like, to do 100% work, it requires your 171 00:06:21.230 --> 00:06:22.290 - full concentration 172 00:06:23.264 --> 00:06:25.584 - for long stretches of time regularly. And so 173 00:06:25.584 --> 00:06:27.185 - we'd heard this. We knew that people were 174 00:06:27.185 --> 00:06:28.704 - struggling to do their best work as a 175 00:06:28.704 --> 00:06:31.104 - result of this. The combination of those two 176 00:06:31.104 --> 00:06:34.464 - experiences made me wonder, okay, what can leaders 177 00:06:34.464 --> 00:06:36.250 - do about this? We live in a hyper 178 00:06:36.250 --> 00:06:37.389 - connected society that's, you 179 00:06:37.850 --> 00:06:40.029 - know, addicted to speed, if you will. 180 00:06:40.490 --> 00:06:40.990 - We 181 00:06:41.290 --> 00:06:43.290 - are always, seems like, taking on more than 182 00:06:43.290 --> 00:06:44.269 - what we can do, 183 00:06:44.569 --> 00:06:45.069 - and 184 00:06:45.529 --> 00:06:47.709 - we feel the pressure to be on available 185 00:06:47.769 --> 00:06:49.689 - all the time. And technology has made it 186 00:06:49.689 --> 00:06:52.064 - possible. You know that saying that the message 187 00:06:52.064 --> 00:06:54.305 - is the medium. Mhmm. Or sorry. The media 188 00:06:54.384 --> 00:06:56.144 - yeah. The message is the medium, which is 189 00:06:56.144 --> 00:06:57.985 - if the medium is that we can communicate 190 00:06:57.985 --> 00:06:59.925 - really fast, then now all of a sudden, 191 00:07:00.144 --> 00:07:01.904 - what matters more is how quickly I respond 192 00:07:01.904 --> 00:07:03.504 - to you, not the content that I'm actually 193 00:07:03.504 --> 00:07:04.944 - responding to. That was said by a fellow 194 00:07:04.944 --> 00:07:05.685 - in the seventies. 195 00:07:06.269 --> 00:07:08.449 - That was where we were going. And so 196 00:07:08.750 --> 00:07:10.269 - I wanted to know, what what's the you 197 00:07:10.269 --> 00:07:12.509 - know, living in these environments where all of 198 00:07:12.509 --> 00:07:14.110 - us are going through this, all of us 199 00:07:14.110 --> 00:07:16.669 - are struggling to, you know, get into work 200 00:07:16.669 --> 00:07:18.110 - in a way that we really feel proud 201 00:07:18.110 --> 00:07:20.370 - of, what are the best leaders doing 202 00:07:20.925 --> 00:07:23.245 - to sort this out, to create space where 203 00:07:23.245 --> 00:07:24.925 - it seems like that there is none? And 204 00:07:24.925 --> 00:07:26.524 - maybe what do the worst leaders do to 205 00:07:26.524 --> 00:07:28.685 - just make it worse? And I'd learned a 206 00:07:28.685 --> 00:07:30.605 - lot from Liz. She's brilliant at learning through 207 00:07:30.605 --> 00:07:32.365 - the eyes of the affected. Multipliers was a 208 00:07:32.365 --> 00:07:34.680 - really fun research project. She she knew was 209 00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:36.600 - that she couldn't find the answers from leaders 210 00:07:36.600 --> 00:07:38.039 - on why do the best leaders shut people 211 00:07:38.039 --> 00:07:39.979 - down. So she interviewed people. 212 00:07:40.279 --> 00:07:42.039 - What's the difference between leaders who shut you 213 00:07:42.039 --> 00:07:42.699 - down versus 214 00:07:43.000 --> 00:07:45.240 - leaders who really used your talents in a 215 00:07:45.240 --> 00:07:46.875 - way that's exciting to for you to do 216 00:07:46.875 --> 00:07:48.074 - something that you're proud of. And I thought, 217 00:07:48.074 --> 00:07:48.954 - oh, this is the way to do this. 218 00:07:48.954 --> 00:07:50.555 - So, listen, I talked about it. I talked 219 00:07:50.555 --> 00:07:51.754 - about it with my wife, and we structured 220 00:07:51.754 --> 00:07:53.115 - this research project, and we wanted to know. 221 00:07:53.115 --> 00:07:55.034 - So here's the question. What do the best 222 00:07:55.034 --> 00:07:56.875 - leaders do to create space for focus on 223 00:07:56.875 --> 00:07:59.539 - things that really matter? And what do leaders 224 00:07:59.539 --> 00:08:01.939 - do to distract people, whether they intend it 225 00:08:01.939 --> 00:08:04.500 - to or not, that causes people to really 226 00:08:04.500 --> 00:08:06.839 - struggle to get deep into their work? So 227 00:08:07.139 --> 00:08:09.459 - we started to interview people. We interviewed hundreds 228 00:08:09.459 --> 00:08:11.379 - of professionals around the world. And in every 229 00:08:11.379 --> 00:08:13.379 - business, in every walk of life first, we, 230 00:08:13.379 --> 00:08:15.194 - you know, started with tech, and I live 231 00:08:15.194 --> 00:08:17.115 - there in Silicon Valley, work with a lot 232 00:08:17.115 --> 00:08:18.794 - of tech companies, but just went to everywhere 233 00:08:18.794 --> 00:08:21.675 - from grocery stores to health professionals, you name 234 00:08:21.675 --> 00:08:24.154 - it. People in academic institutions, and then, of 235 00:08:24.154 --> 00:08:26.475 - course, you know, all the major industries asking 236 00:08:26.475 --> 00:08:29.889 - these questions, interviewing people. And the result of 237 00:08:29.889 --> 00:08:31.889 - this book is Yeah. Is what we learned. 238 00:08:31.889 --> 00:08:33.410 - Yeah. And I appreciate, you know, coming from 239 00:08:33.410 --> 00:08:35.669 - the framework that Liz talks about, the accidental 240 00:08:35.730 --> 00:08:38.129 - diminisher. Right? That leaders can be with the 241 00:08:38.129 --> 00:08:41.250 - best intentions. Yeah. I mean, nothing is better 242 00:08:41.730 --> 00:08:43.910 - more the most best intentions 243 00:08:44.424 --> 00:08:46.264 - than Latter day Saint leaders. Yes. Right? We 244 00:08:46.264 --> 00:08:48.585 - just wanna do a good job. Right? And 245 00:08:48.585 --> 00:08:51.884 - so I love Liz's work identifying the accidental 246 00:08:51.945 --> 00:08:54.445 - diminisher. But in your book, this is like, 247 00:08:54.585 --> 00:08:56.585 - what are the cultures or the context that 248 00:08:56.585 --> 00:08:57.804 - are accidental diminishers? 249 00:08:58.129 --> 00:09:00.070 - The text messages, the Slack messages, 250 00:09:00.450 --> 00:09:01.669 - the email culture, 251 00:09:02.049 --> 00:09:02.709 - you know, 252 00:09:03.009 --> 00:09:03.669 - in corporations 253 00:09:04.049 --> 00:09:07.509 - or and then I move that lens on 254 00:09:07.809 --> 00:09:10.850 - the church experience. And, you know, every I'm 255 00:09:10.850 --> 00:09:13.245 - just saying, you know, a new bishop, like, 256 00:09:13.485 --> 00:09:15.804 - is honored by the opportunity, wants to do 257 00:09:15.804 --> 00:09:17.804 - a good job. You know, the first few 258 00:09:17.804 --> 00:09:20.044 - weeks has so much so many ideas and 259 00:09:20.044 --> 00:09:22.445 - thoughts, but then just the grind of it. 260 00:09:22.445 --> 00:09:23.644 - Right? The you know, I call it the 261 00:09:23.644 --> 00:09:25.964 - calling monster where if you give it sixty 262 00:09:25.964 --> 00:09:27.809 - hours a week, it'll take it. A hundred 263 00:09:27.809 --> 00:09:29.809 - hours a week, it'll take it. Right? Even 264 00:09:29.809 --> 00:09:31.490 - yesterday, I was talking to a bishop who's 265 00:09:31.490 --> 00:09:33.730 - like I was asking just about his job. 266 00:09:33.730 --> 00:09:34.929 - I don't know if he's got a newer 267 00:09:34.929 --> 00:09:36.850 - job. How's that going? Or he's like, yeah. 268 00:09:36.850 --> 00:09:39.009 - Well, I text messages with the ward and, 269 00:09:39.009 --> 00:09:40.875 - you know, that's just going off throughout the 270 00:09:40.875 --> 00:09:42.674 - day. And I feel like there's this tension 271 00:09:42.674 --> 00:09:44.835 - there of, like, oh, I'm their, quote, unquote, 272 00:09:44.835 --> 00:09:46.514 - shepherd. You know? I've gotta be there for 273 00:09:46.514 --> 00:09:48.434 - them. And so and then in the word 274 00:09:48.434 --> 00:09:51.235 - culture of, like, programs and initiatives, and it's 275 00:09:51.235 --> 00:09:53.235 - like, we'll do your ministering, but what about 276 00:09:53.235 --> 00:09:55.169 - the youth? And, you know, there's so many 277 00:09:55.409 --> 00:09:55.909 - moving 278 00:09:56.529 --> 00:09:58.529 - targets that you can get overwhelmed, and then 279 00:09:58.529 --> 00:10:01.169 - naturally a leader kinda dumps that on the 280 00:10:01.169 --> 00:10:03.329 - ward. Like, what are we doing? We're doing 281 00:10:03.329 --> 00:10:05.490 - all of it. Right? And then everybody's kinda 282 00:10:05.490 --> 00:10:07.490 - like, what are we doing here? Right? Or 283 00:10:07.490 --> 00:10:09.554 - I'm trying to have a religious experience, but 284 00:10:09.634 --> 00:10:11.394 - there's so much going on at times. Right? 285 00:10:11.394 --> 00:10:13.815 - Is have you experienced that or witnessed that? 286 00:10:13.875 --> 00:10:14.615 - Well and 287 00:10:15.154 --> 00:10:15.654 - bishops, 288 00:10:16.115 --> 00:10:19.414 - relief society presidents, everybody in any leadership position 289 00:10:19.714 --> 00:10:21.254 - isn't just feel the messages 290 00:10:21.714 --> 00:10:24.539 - from each other from calling to calling. They 291 00:10:24.539 --> 00:10:26.700 - also have work where the same thing's going 292 00:10:26.700 --> 00:10:29.259 - on. And so you have this you know, 293 00:10:29.259 --> 00:10:31.339 - when you're in a leadership capacity, and if 294 00:10:31.339 --> 00:10:34.139 - you have multiple leadership capacities at work, at 295 00:10:34.139 --> 00:10:37.495 - home, at church, This hyper connectivity and this 296 00:10:37.495 --> 00:10:39.095 - sending back and forth in the sense that 297 00:10:39.095 --> 00:10:41.274 - we've got to be on and respond quickly. 298 00:10:41.575 --> 00:10:43.575 - And because people are quite anxious about this, 299 00:10:43.575 --> 00:10:45.335 - we do feel pressure to respond quickly because 300 00:10:45.335 --> 00:10:47.095 - we know that people are anxious about a 301 00:10:47.095 --> 00:10:49.600 - delayed response or worried that we're ghosting them 302 00:10:49.600 --> 00:10:50.959 - or maybe we're mad at them. And so 303 00:10:50.959 --> 00:10:52.720 - we take on that because we experience that. 304 00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:54.639 - We take on that same anxiety. So this 305 00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:57.779 - is happening in a very, you know, complicated 306 00:10:57.919 --> 00:11:00.639 - multiplied way for church leaders, especially because they 307 00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:03.434 - are doubling essentially what they're already experiencing 308 00:11:04.294 --> 00:11:04.875 - in their 309 00:11:05.334 --> 00:11:07.735 - home life, in their work life, and now 310 00:11:07.735 --> 00:11:09.495 - that's happening in their church life. And so 311 00:11:09.495 --> 00:11:11.254 - it can be that you are you feel 312 00:11:11.254 --> 00:11:12.794 - so much pressure to be responding 313 00:11:13.250 --> 00:11:14.529 - that there's no way you can get to 314 00:11:14.529 --> 00:11:16.289 - your very best thinking. And so that means 315 00:11:16.289 --> 00:11:18.690 - that half the time you're making decisions in 316 00:11:18.690 --> 00:11:21.009 - ways that are forced and and you're not 317 00:11:21.009 --> 00:11:21.909 - getting people's 318 00:11:22.450 --> 00:11:24.690 - people can't be present with you when you're 319 00:11:24.690 --> 00:11:26.725 - making these decisions. You know, it's and you're 320 00:11:26.725 --> 00:11:28.884 - sharing ideas that are half understood or probably 321 00:11:28.884 --> 00:11:30.644 - shouldn't even be entertained. And so a lot 322 00:11:30.644 --> 00:11:32.004 - of the things that then we commit to 323 00:11:32.004 --> 00:11:33.304 - come from this really 324 00:11:33.684 --> 00:11:34.985 - poor hyper connected 325 00:11:35.444 --> 00:11:37.284 - communication, and then that just creates more of 326 00:11:37.284 --> 00:11:39.204 - the same. Yeah. And I think a lot 327 00:11:39.204 --> 00:11:41.044 - of you know, the old adage, which I 328 00:11:41.044 --> 00:11:43.419 - think we've created maybe the best example in 329 00:11:43.419 --> 00:11:45.259 - our church culture of if you want something 330 00:11:45.259 --> 00:11:46.779 - done, give it to a busy person. Yeah. 331 00:11:46.779 --> 00:11:48.620 - Right? And we've done that like, okay. We 332 00:11:48.620 --> 00:11:52.160 - have these roles, these unpaid lay ministry roles. 333 00:11:52.299 --> 00:11:53.820 - Well, let's give it to the professionals in 334 00:11:53.820 --> 00:11:55.764 - the ward because, you know, so and so 335 00:11:55.764 --> 00:11:57.684 - is a middle manager. He's a CEO or 336 00:11:57.684 --> 00:11:59.445 - whatever. Like, they know how to run an 337 00:11:59.445 --> 00:11:59.945 - organization. 338 00:12:00.404 --> 00:12:01.925 - And then a lot of these may be 339 00:12:01.925 --> 00:12:05.365 - bad habits or negative, like, over hyperconnected cultures 340 00:12:05.365 --> 00:12:07.925 - spills over Yeah. To the ward culture or 341 00:12:07.925 --> 00:12:10.110 - the ward leadership culture. That's that's tough. And 342 00:12:10.110 --> 00:12:10.990 - you make me think of that. I mean 343 00:12:11.070 --> 00:12:12.590 - and that leads us to this question, and 344 00:12:12.590 --> 00:12:14.429 - you tell me what what you think. So 345 00:12:14.429 --> 00:12:17.090 - then what's the likely default? Yeah. Hyperconnected, 346 00:12:17.549 --> 00:12:20.690 - quick communication, not very well thought out, or 347 00:12:20.830 --> 00:12:24.875 - very thoughtful, high quality conversations? Mhmm. I mean, 348 00:12:24.934 --> 00:12:26.855 - the default is gonna be the easiest thing, 349 00:12:26.855 --> 00:12:28.615 - the path of least resistance. And so we're 350 00:12:28.615 --> 00:12:30.215 - gonna be doing, of course, both, having high 351 00:12:30.215 --> 00:12:32.054 - quality conversations. But there's gonna be a lot 352 00:12:32.054 --> 00:12:34.774 - of noise, a lot of texting back and 353 00:12:34.774 --> 00:12:36.695 - forth and slacking back and forth and making 354 00:12:36.695 --> 00:12:39.029 - decisions that aren't really well thought out. And 355 00:12:39.110 --> 00:12:40.550 - and because this is you're a whole person, 356 00:12:40.550 --> 00:12:41.670 - you're doing this in every area of your 357 00:12:41.670 --> 00:12:43.110 - life, it's pretty easy to get stuck in 358 00:12:43.110 --> 00:12:44.790 - all of this. Yeah. And then you do 359 00:12:44.790 --> 00:12:46.389 - get a sense that you're not really clear 360 00:12:46.389 --> 00:12:48.310 - on what matters and you're kind of just 361 00:12:48.310 --> 00:12:50.710 - reacting to everything around you. And and that 362 00:12:50.710 --> 00:12:52.950 - ultimately is is, you know, leads to feeling 363 00:12:52.950 --> 00:12:55.865 - tired and unfulfilled, etcetera. Yeah. So what what 364 00:12:55.865 --> 00:12:57.384 - advice would you give to that leader who's 365 00:12:57.384 --> 00:13:00.504 - maybe in the the whirlwind of it all, 366 00:13:00.504 --> 00:13:02.345 - and they wanna sort of just grab some 367 00:13:02.345 --> 00:13:03.245 - bearings somewhere 368 00:13:03.625 --> 00:13:06.345 - and reset that culture or find more of 369 00:13:06.345 --> 00:13:08.425 - a focus in leadership? Well, let's do it 370 00:13:08.425 --> 00:13:09.325 - this way. So 371 00:13:09.779 --> 00:13:11.379 - first, let me ask you. Have you ever 372 00:13:11.379 --> 00:13:13.860 - had the experience where you've worked with or 373 00:13:13.860 --> 00:13:14.600 - for somebody 374 00:13:14.980 --> 00:13:16.759 - where the way they worked with you 375 00:13:17.220 --> 00:13:18.039 - really helped 376 00:13:18.500 --> 00:13:20.659 - you get into things deeply? They got really 377 00:13:20.659 --> 00:13:22.100 - good work from you. And if you have, 378 00:13:22.100 --> 00:13:23.860 - what did they do that made it possible 379 00:13:23.860 --> 00:13:24.839 - for you to do that? 380 00:13:25.225 --> 00:13:26.424 - Well, I think this is why I started 381 00:13:26.424 --> 00:13:28.904 - working for myself because I can almost gonna 382 00:13:28.904 --> 00:13:30.345 - escape that at times. Right? But Well, let's 383 00:13:30.345 --> 00:13:31.705 - do the reverse thing. Okay. Yeah. What did 384 00:13:31.705 --> 00:13:33.705 - leaders do that you worked with or for 385 00:13:33.705 --> 00:13:35.304 - that made it impossible for you to do 386 00:13:35.304 --> 00:13:36.825 - your best thinking and work? Oh, yeah. It 387 00:13:36.825 --> 00:13:38.904 - was just the constant interruptions that happened on 388 00:13:38.904 --> 00:13:39.565 - the shoulders 389 00:13:39.940 --> 00:13:41.540 - or the you know, I'm at a lunch 390 00:13:41.540 --> 00:13:43.139 - meeting and a text comes through and I 391 00:13:43.220 --> 00:13:45.139 - there's this sort of pull of, like, what 392 00:13:45.139 --> 00:13:46.660 - if that's the next fire I need to 393 00:13:46.660 --> 00:13:48.340 - put out? And then, you know, I gotta 394 00:13:48.340 --> 00:13:50.100 - go. I gotta finish up here because you're 395 00:13:50.100 --> 00:13:52.580 - racing the next thing or even the I 396 00:13:52.580 --> 00:13:55.075 - had early on in my career had I 397 00:13:55.075 --> 00:13:56.995 - have a boss I felt like in order 398 00:13:56.995 --> 00:13:59.875 - for him to process information, he needed everybody 399 00:13:59.875 --> 00:14:02.115 - in a room sort of talking about it. 400 00:14:02.115 --> 00:14:04.514 - Right? Like and sort of like, well, I'm 401 00:14:04.514 --> 00:14:06.274 - just a cog in the system here. Right? 402 00:14:06.274 --> 00:14:07.679 - You know, like, what do you need from 403 00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:09.120 - me? And this feels like a waste of 404 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:11.120 - time. Yeah. Okay. So so what would you 405 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:13.379 - say was their assumption about work? 406 00:14:13.759 --> 00:14:14.160 - That it was, 407 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:17.440 - if we're meeting together, we're getting things done. 408 00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:19.360 - Yeah. Okay. So meetings are work. That's how 409 00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:20.879 - you get things done, man. If we're communicating 410 00:14:21.040 --> 00:14:23.584 - Yep. Communication is work. We're making progress. Yeah. 411 00:14:23.584 --> 00:14:25.664 - Yeah. And I can't think of those are 412 00:14:25.664 --> 00:14:27.504 - the two big things that So if you 413 00:14:27.504 --> 00:14:29.584 - operate from an assumption that meeting, that's how 414 00:14:29.584 --> 00:14:31.284 - you get things done. And if we're communicating, 415 00:14:31.345 --> 00:14:33.264 - we get things done. And you have this 416 00:14:33.264 --> 00:14:35.584 - bias towards action Mhmm. Which is a good 417 00:14:35.584 --> 00:14:37.929 - thing. It gets us so far, especially as 418 00:14:37.929 --> 00:14:39.370 - contributors. You want people to have a bias 419 00:14:39.370 --> 00:14:41.370 - towards action. But from a leadership perspective, it 420 00:14:41.370 --> 00:14:42.970 - can be a little risky. Because if you're 421 00:14:42.970 --> 00:14:44.889 - in an environment where people actually need space 422 00:14:44.889 --> 00:14:46.250 - not to be in the meeting listening to 423 00:14:46.250 --> 00:14:48.670 - the leader talking at everybody and not communicating 424 00:14:48.809 --> 00:14:50.674 - all the time. If you work in that 425 00:14:50.674 --> 00:14:52.754 - environment, you actually need a leader who has 426 00:14:52.754 --> 00:14:54.995 - a bias towards impact. Well, here's the difference. 427 00:14:54.995 --> 00:14:56.835 - A bias towards action is you believe that 428 00:14:56.835 --> 00:14:58.514 - there's a lot to do and the way 429 00:14:58.514 --> 00:14:59.794 - to win is by getting a lot of 430 00:14:59.794 --> 00:15:01.794 - things done. There's a lot of opportunities. So 431 00:15:01.794 --> 00:15:03.899 - let's seize those opportunities. Let's go after those. 432 00:15:04.059 --> 00:15:05.899 - Well, on the receiving end for everybody else, 433 00:15:05.899 --> 00:15:07.420 - that can mean that you work in an 434 00:15:07.420 --> 00:15:09.840 - environment where you have very little traction. You're 435 00:15:09.980 --> 00:15:11.899 - changing directions a lot. You're getting pulled in 436 00:15:11.899 --> 00:15:13.820 - and out of meetings a lot. Now that's 437 00:15:13.820 --> 00:15:15.580 - activity. So the leader could assume that that 438 00:15:15.580 --> 00:15:17.180 - bias towards action. Hey, listen. My people are 439 00:15:17.180 --> 00:15:19.064 - moving. They're getting things done. But you as 440 00:15:19.064 --> 00:15:19.804 - an individual, 441 00:15:20.184 --> 00:15:22.924 - you're stuck in the shallows. Mhmm. Now if 442 00:15:22.985 --> 00:15:25.725 - a leader makes the shift and they graduate 443 00:15:25.865 --> 00:15:27.544 - from a bias towards action to a bias 444 00:15:27.544 --> 00:15:30.024 - towards impact, well, that's slightly different. If you 445 00:15:30.024 --> 00:15:32.105 - assume that you are there as a leader 446 00:15:32.105 --> 00:15:34.690 - to make sure that people are having a 447 00:15:34.690 --> 00:15:37.490 - meaningful impact in what's in whatever the mission 448 00:15:37.490 --> 00:15:39.169 - of the organization is, whether that's in the 449 00:15:39.169 --> 00:15:41.490 - relief society or in your job, that your 450 00:15:41.490 --> 00:15:43.269 - job is to make sure that the activity 451 00:15:43.330 --> 00:15:44.070 - is leading 452 00:15:44.690 --> 00:15:47.184 - to high impact results that everybody would be 453 00:15:47.184 --> 00:15:48.784 - excited about, the kind of things that make 454 00:15:48.784 --> 00:15:50.085 - you feel fulfilled, 455 00:15:50.625 --> 00:15:52.304 - that you wanna write home about, that you 456 00:15:52.304 --> 00:15:54.865 - wanna share with your kids, or you wanna 457 00:15:54.865 --> 00:15:56.465 - go and talk about it in some kind 458 00:15:56.465 --> 00:15:58.965 - of, you know, an off-site at work 459 00:15:59.345 --> 00:16:02.149 - or in a PC meeting at church. It's 460 00:16:02.149 --> 00:16:03.670 - like you want to share the things that 461 00:16:03.670 --> 00:16:05.350 - you've done where you've accomplished something meaningful. And 462 00:16:05.350 --> 00:16:07.450 - if leaders have an assumption that their role 463 00:16:07.509 --> 00:16:08.870 - is to make sure that there's a good 464 00:16:08.870 --> 00:16:10.710 - outcome and they have a bias towards impact, 465 00:16:10.710 --> 00:16:11.910 - well, now all of a sudden you look 466 00:16:11.910 --> 00:16:14.035 - at activity differently. You want to make sure 467 00:16:14.035 --> 00:16:15.795 - that people have room to do the right 468 00:16:15.795 --> 00:16:18.595 - kind of activity. And for individuals that means 469 00:16:18.595 --> 00:16:21.335 - oftentimes having very clear goals that are measurable. 470 00:16:21.795 --> 00:16:23.875 - This was surprising to me. The number one 471 00:16:23.875 --> 00:16:25.735 - distraction that we found in this research 472 00:16:26.079 --> 00:16:28.959 - was people said, I'm not clear on what 473 00:16:28.959 --> 00:16:31.039 - the priorities really are. I have a general 474 00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:33.200 - sense. I'm kind of clear. Good enough to 475 00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:34.799 - put energy in. Good enough to take a 476 00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:37.279 - step. But they wouldn't know how to decide 477 00:16:37.279 --> 00:16:39.679 - between two good things, for example. They wouldn't 478 00:16:39.679 --> 00:16:41.519 - know where to place their bets, or let's 479 00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:44.535 - make it real. 10 good things. Mhmm. And 480 00:16:44.535 --> 00:16:45.894 - so then now all of a sudden, they're 481 00:16:45.894 --> 00:16:48.134 - trying to make bets on 10 good things, 482 00:16:48.134 --> 00:16:50.535 - and they're making very little progress. Well so 483 00:16:50.535 --> 00:16:51.975 - that was the number one thing that people 484 00:16:51.975 --> 00:16:53.575 - said that was distracting them. Leaders who have 485 00:16:53.575 --> 00:16:54.855 - a bias towards impact, one of the things 486 00:16:54.855 --> 00:16:56.295 - they're really good at is saying, now listen, 487 00:16:56.295 --> 00:16:57.870 - we have got to get serious about it. 488 00:16:57.950 --> 00:16:59.149 - What is the number one thing that we're 489 00:16:59.149 --> 00:17:01.629 - gonna invest in? And sometimes that means, like, 490 00:17:01.629 --> 00:17:03.070 - 10 things as you start to break those 491 00:17:03.070 --> 00:17:04.509 - up, but each person needs to know what 492 00:17:04.509 --> 00:17:05.950 - their number one thing or their number two 493 00:17:05.950 --> 00:17:08.029 - things are that they are working on. And 494 00:17:08.029 --> 00:17:10.005 - then that they know how to measure those 495 00:17:10.005 --> 00:17:12.005 - those things, and they also know what activities 496 00:17:12.005 --> 00:17:13.684 - are we investing in here. What's the lead 497 00:17:13.684 --> 00:17:15.285 - action? What are the things that I should 498 00:17:15.285 --> 00:17:18.005 - be measuring myself on in terms of units 499 00:17:18.005 --> 00:17:20.404 - of energy? And when people have that, there 500 00:17:20.404 --> 00:17:22.085 - was this one fellow that said, I remember 501 00:17:22.085 --> 00:17:24.080 - the story. He said, I had been working 502 00:17:24.080 --> 00:17:27.440 - for a leader who was everywhere. They would 503 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:28.720 - go up to the board and say, we're 504 00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:30.960 - gonna talk about the quarter's 25 priorities with 505 00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:33.359 - no irony. You know? It, like, not even 506 00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:35.440 - realizing the sense of irony of 25 priorities. 507 00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:37.519 - That means everything matters, nothing matters. You know 508 00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:39.535 - the saying. And I just he said, I 509 00:17:39.535 --> 00:17:41.134 - just felt like this all of the time. 510 00:17:41.134 --> 00:17:42.494 - I I wanted to get things done. I 511 00:17:42.494 --> 00:17:43.934 - wanted to move my career forward, but I 512 00:17:43.934 --> 00:17:45.795 - couldn't. I didn't know what to execute on. 513 00:17:45.934 --> 00:17:47.695 - And he's feeling tight like this all the 514 00:17:47.695 --> 00:17:49.055 - time. And he said, we got a new 515 00:17:49.055 --> 00:17:50.654 - boss, and the leader comes in and says, 516 00:17:50.654 --> 00:17:52.494 - hey. Listen. I'd like to interview everybody to 517 00:17:52.494 --> 00:17:54.279 - find out what you think are the is 518 00:17:54.279 --> 00:17:55.720 - one thing that we should put our energy 519 00:17:55.720 --> 00:17:57.400 - in as a major. We'll break that up 520 00:17:57.400 --> 00:17:58.759 - into parts and then we'll talk about a 521 00:17:58.759 --> 00:18:00.440 - few minors that we can have. I went 522 00:18:00.440 --> 00:18:01.500 - through this whole process 523 00:18:01.880 --> 00:18:03.480 - and he said he remembered the first time 524 00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:05.640 - when they finished the major that the the 525 00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:07.799 - organization was gonna have and then the minors 526 00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:09.974 - that he was gonna, you know, be moving 527 00:18:09.974 --> 00:18:11.734 - forward as well. And he said I could 528 00:18:11.734 --> 00:18:14.555 - literally feel the tension leave my entire body. 529 00:18:14.615 --> 00:18:16.295 - It's like a physical experience. Because I was 530 00:18:16.375 --> 00:18:18.375 - for the first time in a year, I 531 00:18:18.375 --> 00:18:20.214 - felt like, I think I know what to 532 00:18:20.214 --> 00:18:21.815 - do when I go to work, and I 533 00:18:21.815 --> 00:18:24.019 - believe that that will count. Instead of just 534 00:18:24.019 --> 00:18:25.619 - feeling like he was running around with his, 535 00:18:25.619 --> 00:18:26.740 - you know, his head cut off and he 536 00:18:26.740 --> 00:18:27.779 - was trying to do all these things. And 537 00:18:27.779 --> 00:18:29.640 - he said he went from working 80 538 00:18:29.940 --> 00:18:32.500 - to working around fifty five hours. Wow. Was 539 00:18:32.500 --> 00:18:34.259 - getting much more done and just felt better 540 00:18:34.259 --> 00:18:35.859 - about life in general. And so lack of 541 00:18:35.859 --> 00:18:37.934 - clarity is a huge part of this. And 542 00:18:38.015 --> 00:18:39.535 - if you assume that it's your job as 543 00:18:39.535 --> 00:18:41.215 - a leader to make sure that everyone in 544 00:18:41.215 --> 00:18:41.955 - your organization, 545 00:18:42.575 --> 00:18:45.695 - in your bishopric, in your release society, that 546 00:18:45.695 --> 00:18:47.375 - your responsibility is to make sure that they 547 00:18:47.375 --> 00:18:49.295 - have an impact, then all of a sudden 548 00:18:49.295 --> 00:18:50.975 - now you get serious about priorities. Whereas if 549 00:18:50.975 --> 00:18:52.970 - you just have a bias towards action, you 550 00:18:52.970 --> 00:18:54.330 - can just get caught up in in so 551 00:18:54.330 --> 00:18:56.089 - much activity that doesn't lead anywhere, and that's 552 00:18:56.089 --> 00:18:57.390 - not very fulfilling for people. 553 00:18:57.690 --> 00:18:59.849 - Yeah. That bias towards action just resonates in 554 00:18:59.849 --> 00:19:01.609 - my at least in my personal church experience 555 00:19:01.609 --> 00:19:03.289 - where it's like I mean, what are we 556 00:19:03.450 --> 00:19:05.065 - we can't just sit around and, you know, 557 00:19:05.065 --> 00:19:07.225 - sing games all day. Gotta do. Yeah. We 558 00:19:07.225 --> 00:19:09.144 - gotta go go and do it. The wheel. 559 00:19:09.144 --> 00:19:12.505 - Exactly. Right? And, obviously, that there's moments and 560 00:19:12.505 --> 00:19:13.884 - that's part of it, but 561 00:19:14.265 --> 00:19:15.625 - we sort of begin there and we get 562 00:19:15.625 --> 00:19:17.829 - lost in it really easily. Well, my mind 563 00:19:17.829 --> 00:19:19.509 - goes to a story when I was a 564 00:19:19.509 --> 00:19:22.169 - young bishop in inner city, South Salt Lake, 565 00:19:22.470 --> 00:19:25.509 - very transient ward. And, you know, I sort 566 00:19:25.509 --> 00:19:27.349 - of came to realization I'm caught in the 567 00:19:27.349 --> 00:19:29.029 - rat race of it all of, like, trying 568 00:19:29.029 --> 00:19:30.549 - to do all the programs, all the things. 569 00:19:30.549 --> 00:19:33.394 - Yeah. And, I felt very strong prompting and 570 00:19:33.394 --> 00:19:35.315 - direction of because I went through all the 571 00:19:35.315 --> 00:19:37.555 - word list and it was so transient that 572 00:19:37.555 --> 00:19:38.994 - it had gone to a space where I 573 00:19:38.994 --> 00:19:40.914 - didn't know 70% 574 00:19:40.914 --> 00:19:42.835 - of the names on this role. Right? And 575 00:19:42.835 --> 00:19:44.789 - the inspiration came to me. How can you 576 00:19:44.789 --> 00:19:46.330 - lead them if you don't know them? 577 00:19:46.710 --> 00:19:49.190 - And to me, I became hyper focused on 578 00:19:49.190 --> 00:19:50.710 - this list and I brought my word council 579 00:19:50.710 --> 00:19:52.710 - in. Right? And I remember word council saying 580 00:19:52.870 --> 00:19:54.309 - this is the the years of home and 581 00:19:54.309 --> 00:19:56.230 - visiting teaching, and I said, I could not 582 00:19:56.230 --> 00:19:58.070 - care less about home and visiting teaching. We 583 00:19:58.070 --> 00:19:59.894 - are not focusing on home and visiting teaching 584 00:19:59.894 --> 00:20:01.414 - till we figure out who's on this list. 585 00:20:01.414 --> 00:20:03.095 - Yeah. And they kinda looked at me like, 586 00:20:03.095 --> 00:20:05.575 - can you say that? Right? Like, you can't 587 00:20:05.575 --> 00:20:07.734 - do that. Yeah. I just did that. You 588 00:20:07.734 --> 00:20:09.815 - know? But that's you talk about this concept 589 00:20:09.815 --> 00:20:11.575 - of it's not so much identifying what we 590 00:20:11.575 --> 00:20:13.559 - need to do, but first starting, what are 591 00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:15.319 - the things we are not going to focus 592 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:17.319 - on Yeah. That feel because that's the thing. 593 00:20:17.319 --> 00:20:19.400 - Like, what about family history? Yeah. What about 594 00:20:19.400 --> 00:20:21.240 - temple work? What about missionary work? Like, it 595 00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:22.059 - all feels 596 00:20:22.599 --> 00:20:23.099 - so 597 00:20:23.559 --> 00:20:26.244 - crucial. Yeah. But a real leader has to 598 00:20:26.244 --> 00:20:28.404 - say, we'll get to that. Or but right 599 00:20:28.404 --> 00:20:30.484 - now, this is what we're doing. Yeah. And 600 00:20:30.484 --> 00:20:32.244 - when you work in an organization of scale, 601 00:20:32.244 --> 00:20:33.845 - which is complicated as a as a bishop 602 00:20:33.845 --> 00:20:35.684 - because there are so many programs, you know, 603 00:20:35.684 --> 00:20:36.884 - a lot of times what you're doing is 604 00:20:36.884 --> 00:20:38.025 - you're working with each 605 00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:38.900 - individual, 606 00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:40.960 - you know, group to try to figure out 607 00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:42.640 - for each group, what are the what are 608 00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:44.000 - the few things that we're gonna really put 609 00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:45.519 - energy into? How will we measure those? And 610 00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:46.960 - how do they roll up to a bigger 611 00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:48.480 - theme from a ward perspective? And there is 612 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:50.660 - that level of complexity, but but I appreciate 613 00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:52.320 - this idea that at some point you just 614 00:20:52.320 --> 00:20:53.279 - have to you have to say, okay, we're 615 00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:54.554 - gonna place a bet here. We think we 616 00:20:54.554 --> 00:20:56.154 - can make a difference here. All the rest 617 00:20:56.154 --> 00:20:57.515 - of the programs are gonna run, but we're 618 00:20:57.515 --> 00:20:59.034 - gonna really make this one run well. You 619 00:20:59.034 --> 00:21:00.714 - remember this. I remember when I was on 620 00:21:00.714 --> 00:21:03.054 - my mission, we were really struggling with retention. 621 00:21:03.515 --> 00:21:05.755 - And I'll never forget this. This was real 622 00:21:05.755 --> 00:21:08.269 - great leadership when President Hinckley was the prophet 623 00:21:08.269 --> 00:21:09.390 - at the time, and he said, look, here's 624 00:21:09.390 --> 00:21:11.869 - what we're gonna do. For every single convert, 625 00:21:11.869 --> 00:21:14.349 - they need three things. They need a friend, 626 00:21:14.349 --> 00:21:15.009 - you remember, 627 00:21:15.390 --> 00:21:16.130 - a responsibility, 628 00:21:16.990 --> 00:21:18.589 - and to be nourished by the good word 629 00:21:18.589 --> 00:21:20.244 - of God. And here's what these three things 630 00:21:20.244 --> 00:21:22.244 - look like. Mhmm. And I'll never forget how 631 00:21:22.244 --> 00:21:23.684 - clarifying that was for me. All of a 632 00:21:23.684 --> 00:21:25.845 - sudden as a missionary, I knew that anybody 633 00:21:25.845 --> 00:21:27.525 - that I was responsible to bring in the 634 00:21:27.525 --> 00:21:29.285 - church, they couldn't be brought into the church 635 00:21:29.285 --> 00:21:31.045 - without a friend. They couldn't be brought into 636 00:21:31.045 --> 00:21:33.444 - the church without a calling stacked up for 637 00:21:33.444 --> 00:21:35.740 - them right off the bat. And also that 638 00:21:35.740 --> 00:21:37.420 - we had a plan to nourish them by 639 00:21:37.420 --> 00:21:39.519 - the good word of God. And it completely 640 00:21:39.660 --> 00:21:41.980 - transformed the way that my mission prepared even 641 00:21:41.980 --> 00:21:44.220 - for convert baptisms. The amount of reading in 642 00:21:44.220 --> 00:21:46.079 - the Book of Mormon that we started doing 643 00:21:46.140 --> 00:21:47.359 - with potential 644 00:21:47.900 --> 00:21:48.400 - converts, 645 00:21:48.859 --> 00:21:51.535 - investigators, was massive. We started to invest a 646 00:21:51.535 --> 00:21:53.375 - lot of time in going beyond the discussions 647 00:21:53.375 --> 00:21:55.295 - and just spending time with them on a 648 00:21:55.295 --> 00:21:57.934 - regular basis reading and involving members in reading 649 00:21:57.934 --> 00:21:59.535 - the Book of Mormon with them. You know, 650 00:21:59.535 --> 00:22:01.375 - on our baptisms, they took a hit because 651 00:22:01.375 --> 00:22:03.215 - now we were putting this energy into getting 652 00:22:03.215 --> 00:22:05.990 - these scripture study habits in place. We were 653 00:22:05.990 --> 00:22:08.490 - spending a little bit more time getting people 654 00:22:08.710 --> 00:22:11.109 - real friends connected to some families or some 655 00:22:11.109 --> 00:22:12.869 - people they would connect with, and then talking 656 00:22:12.869 --> 00:22:15.210 - with the bishop and and priesthood executive committee. 657 00:22:15.509 --> 00:22:17.765 - And what calling will they have? What's gonna 658 00:22:17.765 --> 00:22:18.664 - be their responsibility 659 00:22:19.045 --> 00:22:20.825 - long before they got baptized? 660 00:22:21.125 --> 00:22:22.484 - But all of a sudden, a year later, 661 00:22:22.484 --> 00:22:24.085 - we started seeing people go to the temple. 662 00:22:24.085 --> 00:22:25.304 - And it was this incredible 663 00:22:25.605 --> 00:22:27.605 - amount of clarity, like, here's how we are 664 00:22:27.605 --> 00:22:29.684 - gonna measure. This is the only thing that 665 00:22:29.684 --> 00:22:31.859 - matters for new convert baptisms. 666 00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:34.480 - And that's what this means when you get 667 00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:36.799 - really clear on what's the outcome, what we're 668 00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:38.559 - going to the temple. So here are the 669 00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:40.799 - three success measures that we're gonna do. And 670 00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:42.880 - that gave me as an individual who has 671 00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:45.539 - a crazy bias towards action, who I love 672 00:22:45.724 --> 00:22:47.565 - crossing things off my to list. I'm a 673 00:22:47.565 --> 00:22:50.045 - driven dude. I wanna get things done. You 674 00:22:50.045 --> 00:22:51.724 - tell ask everyone in my family. I'm the 675 00:22:51.724 --> 00:22:53.404 - guy that says yes first. This was this 676 00:22:53.404 --> 00:22:55.164 - book was actually for me because, man, I 677 00:22:55.164 --> 00:22:57.244 - need it. But now all of a sudden, 678 00:22:57.244 --> 00:22:59.220 - I can calculate, okay, what action should I 679 00:22:59.220 --> 00:23:00.900 - be investing in that will roll up to 680 00:23:00.900 --> 00:23:04.119 - the impact that everybody wants to have here? 681 00:23:04.420 --> 00:23:07.059 - Yeah. And that impact is tricky because I'd 682 00:23:07.140 --> 00:23:08.819 - sometimes I feel like there's a bias in 683 00:23:08.819 --> 00:23:10.279 - the on the leadership level 684 00:23:10.660 --> 00:23:12.019 - of, well, I don't know. I just want 685 00:23:12.019 --> 00:23:13.875 - our numbers look good because I gotta go 686 00:23:13.875 --> 00:23:15.474 - to the state president's office and talk to 687 00:23:15.474 --> 00:23:17.234 - him about it. You know? And but then 688 00:23:17.234 --> 00:23:19.154 - the the primary teachers kinda feels lost in 689 00:23:19.154 --> 00:23:21.174 - that. Or Yeah. Is there a way to 690 00:23:21.634 --> 00:23:23.255 - focus award organization 691 00:23:23.555 --> 00:23:25.795 - around the impact that we wanna have? Yeah. 692 00:23:25.795 --> 00:23:27.119 - I I mean, listen. I'm not an expert 693 00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:28.776 - in this. I wanna admit because I've well, 694 00:23:28.776 --> 00:23:30.894 - I've not been a bishop or an in 695 00:23:30.894 --> 00:23:32.319 - a state presidency. But, you know, a lot 696 00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:34.319 - of organizations in the world feel the same 697 00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:36.880 - thing. They don't just want the sale. They 698 00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:39.535 - want a die hard customer. You know? They 699 00:23:39.535 --> 00:23:41.394 - don't want somebody to just come and 700 00:23:42.015 --> 00:23:44.174 - have a meal. They want somebody to have 701 00:23:44.174 --> 00:23:46.654 - an amazing experience. And so there are ways 702 00:23:46.654 --> 00:23:49.214 - to measure these things. There's ways to set 703 00:23:49.214 --> 00:23:49.714 - measurable 704 00:23:50.174 --> 00:23:53.230 - criteria that get access to, you know, the 705 00:23:53.230 --> 00:23:54.990 - state of people's hearts and souls, where we're 706 00:23:54.990 --> 00:23:56.609 - looking at their spiritual experience. 707 00:23:56.990 --> 00:23:58.750 - And so impact, I think we really have 708 00:23:58.750 --> 00:23:59.869 - to get into that. What does that word 709 00:23:59.869 --> 00:24:01.230 - mean? Well, what is the kind of impact 710 00:24:01.230 --> 00:24:03.250 - that we want? Well, we wanna convert people 711 00:24:03.390 --> 00:24:05.549 - to Christ, and we wanna bring people into 712 00:24:05.549 --> 00:24:08.494 - a scenario where they have very strong testimonies. 713 00:24:08.715 --> 00:24:10.475 - Well, that's something that we can measure. Well, 714 00:24:10.475 --> 00:24:11.875 - how could we do that? Well, we, you 715 00:24:11.875 --> 00:24:13.195 - know, you sit down and work together. If 716 00:24:13.195 --> 00:24:14.315 - you and I were, if you were my 717 00:24:14.315 --> 00:24:15.595 - bishop and we were working together, okay, well, 718 00:24:15.595 --> 00:24:17.835 - how will we know if the people that 719 00:24:17.835 --> 00:24:19.355 - are baptized or the people that are coming 720 00:24:19.355 --> 00:24:21.515 - to church have a testimony? Like, what can 721 00:24:21.515 --> 00:24:22.255 - we count? 722 00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:24.399 - What questions can we ask to figure that 723 00:24:24.399 --> 00:24:26.159 - out? Although there are answers to this, and 724 00:24:26.159 --> 00:24:28.259 - so by you doing that as a bishop, 725 00:24:28.399 --> 00:24:30.899 - you're still driving us to an impact 726 00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:32.559 - that we can then say, how will we 727 00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:34.240 - measure that? And then we can ask the 728 00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:36.670 - question, well, then therefore, what activities should we 729 00:24:36.670 --> 00:24:38.722 - invest in and should we not invest in? 730 00:24:38.722 --> 00:24:40.775 - Mhmm. This kind of clarity matters for people 731 00:24:40.775 --> 00:24:42.827 - with callings. You know, I I I was 732 00:24:42.827 --> 00:24:44.879 - just talking to somebody the other day. They 733 00:24:44.879 --> 00:24:46.931 - said, you know, one of the reasons why 734 00:24:46.931 --> 00:24:49.240 - I stopped feeling comfortable accepting callings so this 735 00:24:49.240 --> 00:24:50.890 - person was in a position where they just 736 00:24:50.890 --> 00:24:51.849 - felt like, ah, it's hard for me to 737 00:24:51.849 --> 00:24:53.369 - want to serve in the church. They're like, 738 00:24:53.369 --> 00:24:54.410 - every time I get a call in, I 739 00:24:54.410 --> 00:24:55.609 - feel like it's not clear what I'm supposed 740 00:24:55.609 --> 00:24:57.369 - to really do. So true. And I'm a 741 00:24:57.369 --> 00:24:59.690 - little introverted. I'm a little shy. And I 742 00:24:59.690 --> 00:25:01.130 - don't really want to tell everybody that I 743 00:25:01.130 --> 00:25:03.214 - don't, you know, know exactly what to do 744 00:25:03.214 --> 00:25:04.786 - here. And I went and gone and read 745 00:25:04.786 --> 00:25:06.358 - the manuals and I know where that all 746 00:25:06.358 --> 00:25:07.930 - that is in my app and all this, 747 00:25:07.930 --> 00:25:09.502 - but I still just kind of feel like 748 00:25:09.502 --> 00:25:11.074 - I don't really know how to like get 749 00:25:11.074 --> 00:25:12.646 - into the dance. Well, you'll just stay right 750 00:25:12.646 --> 00:25:14.218 - along the wall and watch the dance. And 751 00:25:14.218 --> 00:25:15.790 - so I think people are looking for ways 752 00:25:15.790 --> 00:25:17.339 - to know that what they should be doing 753 00:25:17.339 --> 00:25:19.180 - from an action perspective. And they also wanna 754 00:25:19.180 --> 00:25:21.180 - know how that's gonna roll up into something 755 00:25:21.180 --> 00:25:22.000 - that's meaningful. 756 00:25:22.460 --> 00:25:24.700 - And so, you know, as you asked earlier, 757 00:25:24.700 --> 00:25:25.900 - like, what's one of the things we can 758 00:25:25.900 --> 00:25:27.900 - do to we can develop this bias towards 759 00:25:27.900 --> 00:25:29.660 - impact. We can ask ourselves the question, what 760 00:25:29.660 --> 00:25:30.940 - kind of an impact are we trying to 761 00:25:30.940 --> 00:25:32.808 - have here? And then based on the amount 762 00:25:32.808 --> 00:25:35.102 - of resource we have and what the bandwidth 763 00:25:35.102 --> 00:25:37.396 - that we have, what's realistic? Mhmm. What can 764 00:25:37.396 --> 00:25:39.690 - we actually accomplish? And I think when leaders 765 00:25:39.690 --> 00:25:41.984 - start getting serious about this idea that they 766 00:25:41.984 --> 00:25:44.278 - recognize that it takes space to do great 767 00:25:44.278 --> 00:25:46.573 - work, you can't be over committed. It takes 768 00:25:46.573 --> 00:25:48.220 - clarity. And that in order for people to 769 00:25:48.220 --> 00:25:49.900 - do their best work, they have to also 770 00:25:49.980 --> 00:25:51.339 - it's gotta be easy to talk about the 771 00:25:51.339 --> 00:25:52.859 - things that aren't working. And that was one 772 00:25:52.859 --> 00:25:53.900 - of the other things that we found in 773 00:25:53.900 --> 00:25:56.619 - this research is that these leaders create systems 774 00:25:56.619 --> 00:25:57.839 - for people to share 775 00:25:58.539 --> 00:26:00.954 - what to say the hard thing. What is 776 00:26:00.954 --> 00:26:03.194 - the thing that's not working? They literally, like, 777 00:26:03.194 --> 00:26:05.755 - there's this one fellow that we covered. He 778 00:26:05.755 --> 00:26:07.595 - wanted in his company for people to be 779 00:26:07.595 --> 00:26:10.654 - able to say what was distracting them emotionally. 780 00:26:11.210 --> 00:26:12.569 - And so they came up with this thing 781 00:26:12.569 --> 00:26:14.490 - they called holding a clearing. It's the last 782 00:26:14.490 --> 00:26:15.769 - chapter of the book. And the way that 783 00:26:15.769 --> 00:26:17.849 - it works is they designed a system where 784 00:26:17.849 --> 00:26:20.089 - if you did something that frustrated me, and 785 00:26:20.089 --> 00:26:22.569 - maybe I'm ruminating about it a lot, and 786 00:26:22.569 --> 00:26:24.349 - I go back to work at my desk 787 00:26:24.595 --> 00:26:26.434 - and I can't get into this assignment because 788 00:26:26.434 --> 00:26:28.755 - I'm so frustrated about this miscommunication that you 789 00:26:28.755 --> 00:26:30.195 - and I had. Well, they made it to 790 00:26:30.195 --> 00:26:31.795 - where, in order for me to bring that 791 00:26:31.795 --> 00:26:32.835 - up for you, I could come to you 792 00:26:32.835 --> 00:26:34.695 - and say, Hey, man. Can we clear something? 793 00:26:34.914 --> 00:26:37.779 - Now those words triggered something that they had 794 00:26:37.779 --> 00:26:39.380 - all rehearsed and practiced. It was called the 795 00:26:39.380 --> 00:26:40.359 - clearing conversation. 796 00:26:40.660 --> 00:26:42.420 - And the way this worked was, you'd say, 797 00:26:42.420 --> 00:26:44.019 - okay, yeah, let's schedule it. And you knew 798 00:26:44.019 --> 00:26:45.859 - that meant I was upset about something. And 799 00:26:45.859 --> 00:26:47.940 - then in the conversation, I was only allowed 800 00:26:47.940 --> 00:26:49.480 - to share what observably 801 00:26:49.940 --> 00:26:52.164 - happened and the way it felt and what 802 00:26:52.164 --> 00:26:53.445 - I wanted different. And these are things that 803 00:26:53.445 --> 00:26:54.964 - they'd get trained on. They'd practice. So I'd 804 00:26:54.964 --> 00:26:56.244 - say to you, hey. You know, Kurt, the 805 00:26:56.244 --> 00:26:58.345 - other day when we were in that meeting, 806 00:26:58.484 --> 00:27:00.884 - there was a few times that I said 807 00:27:00.884 --> 00:27:02.644 - one thing and you just didn't ask me 808 00:27:02.644 --> 00:27:04.325 - any follow-up questions. You just went in a 809 00:27:04.325 --> 00:27:05.065 - different direction. 810 00:27:05.429 --> 00:27:07.750 - And I'm frustrated about that because what I 811 00:27:07.750 --> 00:27:09.529 - really wanted was I wanted for you to, 812 00:27:09.750 --> 00:27:11.669 - like, that was messy, I know, but I 813 00:27:11.669 --> 00:27:13.269 - wanted you to get into it with me 814 00:27:13.269 --> 00:27:14.950 - a little bit. Mhmm. And then and you 815 00:27:14.950 --> 00:27:16.470 - know your job is your job is just 816 00:27:16.470 --> 00:27:17.990 - to say, ask more, you know, open ended 817 00:27:17.990 --> 00:27:19.815 - question. Okay. Tell me more about that. Yeah. 818 00:27:19.894 --> 00:27:21.654 - And then once it's all laid out, we 819 00:27:21.654 --> 00:27:22.714 - let it sit. 820 00:27:23.174 --> 00:27:24.934 - I say, here's what I was hoping for 821 00:27:24.934 --> 00:27:26.934 - instead. Just ask me a few follow-up questions 822 00:27:26.934 --> 00:27:28.454 - when you can tell I'm bringing up something 823 00:27:28.454 --> 00:27:30.214 - that is meaningful. And then we we just 824 00:27:30.214 --> 00:27:31.335 - leave it alone. We don't have to solve 825 00:27:31.335 --> 00:27:33.174 - the problem. Now you can go further, but 826 00:27:33.174 --> 00:27:34.694 - the idea is now that that's on the 827 00:27:34.694 --> 00:27:36.299 - table, I didn't attack you 828 00:27:36.680 --> 00:27:38.359 - because I was taught, oh, I'm just gonna 829 00:27:38.359 --> 00:27:39.019 - share the 830 00:27:39.320 --> 00:27:41.400 - observable behavior, which is not a judgment. That's 831 00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:43.019 - not like saying dude, you're just not curious. 832 00:27:43.080 --> 00:27:45.400 - That's a judgment, right? The observable behavior was, 833 00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:47.000 - hey, when we were talking, you didn't ask 834 00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:48.359 - me follow-up questions on the thing I was 835 00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:50.174 - frustrated about. And here's where I felt. And 836 00:27:50.174 --> 00:27:51.455 - here's what I was wanting instead. Now you 837 00:27:51.455 --> 00:27:52.815 - know a lot about me. I'm not telling 838 00:27:52.815 --> 00:27:54.255 - you anything about you. Well, they've been trained 839 00:27:54.255 --> 00:27:55.134 - how to do that. So there was a 840 00:27:55.134 --> 00:27:56.815 - combination of a way to start the hard 841 00:27:56.815 --> 00:27:58.815 - conversation. Can I clear something with you? And 842 00:27:58.815 --> 00:28:00.335 - then both parties are trained on how to 843 00:28:00.335 --> 00:28:01.695 - say the hard thing and receive the hard 844 00:28:01.695 --> 00:28:04.174 - thing. And this is what they said. 90% 845 00:28:04.174 --> 00:28:05.775 - of the time, people just work it out 846 00:28:05.775 --> 00:28:07.910 - from there. Mhmm. And that the hardest thing 847 00:28:07.910 --> 00:28:09.269 - is to just get your cards on the 848 00:28:09.269 --> 00:28:11.509 - table. That's a way to, for example, get 849 00:28:11.509 --> 00:28:14.230 - hard things on If you can share the 850 00:28:14.230 --> 00:28:16.630 - thing that's bugging you, 90% of the work 851 00:28:16.630 --> 00:28:18.309 - has been done. Now, what does it all 852 00:28:18.309 --> 00:28:20.914 - mean? It means that somebody had to slow 853 00:28:20.914 --> 00:28:23.474 - down and think about how are we gonna 854 00:28:23.474 --> 00:28:26.515 - get these internal emotional distractions on the table 855 00:28:26.515 --> 00:28:27.795 - in a way that when people go back 856 00:28:27.795 --> 00:28:30.835 - to their desk, they're not still distracted. Yeah. 857 00:28:30.835 --> 00:28:32.275 - And so they had to create a system 858 00:28:32.275 --> 00:28:34.134 - for that. And so that requires 859 00:28:34.609 --> 00:28:36.769 - a bias towards impact. You have to say, 860 00:28:36.769 --> 00:28:38.210 - well, what we want is we want for 861 00:28:38.210 --> 00:28:40.210 - people to be able to say and to 862 00:28:40.210 --> 00:28:42.609 - receive hard things in a way that helps 863 00:28:42.609 --> 00:28:43.109 - people 864 00:28:43.490 --> 00:28:45.109 - regain their ability to concentrate. 865 00:28:45.650 --> 00:28:47.275 - And so as a leader, it means that 866 00:28:47.275 --> 00:28:48.474 - you've got to be thinking about, well, what 867 00:28:48.474 --> 00:28:49.755 - are the outcomes that I want? What are 868 00:28:49.755 --> 00:28:50.954 - the things that we need to do as 869 00:28:50.954 --> 00:28:53.194 - a leadership team to get the outcomes that 870 00:28:53.194 --> 00:28:55.115 - we want? And to be talking about these 871 00:28:55.115 --> 00:28:56.875 - types of things instead of just talking about, 872 00:28:56.875 --> 00:28:58.474 - hey, what do we gotta do today? Yeah. 873 00:28:58.474 --> 00:29:00.634 - Like, what's the work today? And constantly getting 874 00:29:00.634 --> 00:29:02.390 - into that. That. Yeah. And I I think 875 00:29:02.390 --> 00:29:04.549 - that's such a real experience in the church 876 00:29:04.549 --> 00:29:06.950 - context of, you know, just what are the 877 00:29:06.950 --> 00:29:09.109 - conversations like in the minivan driving home from 878 00:29:09.109 --> 00:29:09.609 - church 879 00:29:09.990 --> 00:29:11.829 - or coming home from the meeting and you're 880 00:29:11.829 --> 00:29:13.769 - talking to your spouse, like, oh my goodness. 881 00:29:13.945 --> 00:29:16.105 - This is so frustrating. Right? To create a 882 00:29:16.105 --> 00:29:17.945 - space where you're like, that's the conversation I 883 00:29:17.945 --> 00:29:19.865 - wanna hear. I wanna hear those frustrations. Let's 884 00:29:19.865 --> 00:29:22.184 - just get them out. I probably messed up. 885 00:29:22.184 --> 00:29:24.345 - You probably messed or whatever. This isn't about, 886 00:29:24.345 --> 00:29:26.505 - like, putting blame anywhere, but it's just like, 887 00:29:26.505 --> 00:29:27.785 - let's get it out. And then then we 888 00:29:27.785 --> 00:29:29.570 - have something to work with. We can actually 889 00:29:29.570 --> 00:29:31.250 - make progress and take care of it rather 890 00:29:31.250 --> 00:29:33.650 - than sort of just faking it. Right? Yeah. 891 00:29:33.650 --> 00:29:36.130 - Yeah. That's good. What about this concept of, 892 00:29:36.130 --> 00:29:37.809 - like, you know, you you hear the word 893 00:29:37.809 --> 00:29:40.289 - delegation thrown around so much, and and we've 894 00:29:40.289 --> 00:29:41.994 - all been in different jobs where it's like, 895 00:29:41.994 --> 00:29:43.755 - oh, here's one more project as if you 896 00:29:43.755 --> 00:29:45.934 - had nothing else to work on. Right? Yeah. 897 00:29:46.075 --> 00:29:48.654 - And I appreciate your emphasis sort of articulating 898 00:29:48.714 --> 00:29:50.575 - that calling experience where 899 00:29:50.875 --> 00:29:52.234 - because I would say in the top three 900 00:29:52.234 --> 00:29:54.474 - of things that most surprise a new Bishopric 901 00:29:54.474 --> 00:29:56.234 - member is just how many people turn down 902 00:29:56.234 --> 00:29:58.519 - callings. And these are, like, faithful, you know, 903 00:29:58.519 --> 00:30:00.599 - that you would be surprised that do that. 904 00:30:00.599 --> 00:30:02.039 - Right? And and I think a part of 905 00:30:02.039 --> 00:30:04.519 - that is one that they they lack clarity. 906 00:30:04.519 --> 00:30:06.519 - Like, okay. Are you just filling the slot 907 00:30:06.519 --> 00:30:07.960 - here? Or what what are we doing? Right? 908 00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:09.799 - And that's where the high impact should come 909 00:30:09.799 --> 00:30:11.345 - in. But, also, it's 910 00:30:11.724 --> 00:30:12.924 - like, oh, you think I got nothing else 911 00:30:12.924 --> 00:30:13.664 - to do? 912 00:30:14.285 --> 00:30:16.684 - Yeah. You know? So Yeah. I mean, what 913 00:30:16.684 --> 00:30:17.585 - what are some approaches 914 00:30:18.285 --> 00:30:19.825 - of being aware of 915 00:30:20.204 --> 00:30:21.884 - we know you're busy. Yeah. We know you 916 00:30:21.884 --> 00:30:23.500 - have a lot of things. Maybe this will 917 00:30:23.500 --> 00:30:24.779 - work, maybe it won't. I don't know what 918 00:30:24.779 --> 00:30:26.460 - comes to mind. My wife, Annie, and I, 919 00:30:26.460 --> 00:30:27.900 - who wrote we wrote the book together, which 920 00:30:27.900 --> 00:30:30.460 - was a brilliant experience working together in that 921 00:30:30.460 --> 00:30:32.380 - capacity. We were talking about this last night. 922 00:30:32.380 --> 00:30:34.140 - Do you remember I can't remember which book 923 00:30:34.140 --> 00:30:35.500 - it was that Stephen Covey wrote where he 924 00:30:35.500 --> 00:30:36.700 - was talking about maybe it was in the 925 00:30:36.700 --> 00:30:38.714 - divine center or spiritual roots and human relations, 926 00:30:38.714 --> 00:30:40.234 - but it was, he was talking about this 927 00:30:40.234 --> 00:30:42.315 - idea that he was proposing that he believes 928 00:30:42.315 --> 00:30:44.795 - that when we extend callings or before we 929 00:30:44.795 --> 00:30:46.474 - receive a calling, that we should counsel together 930 00:30:46.474 --> 00:30:48.474 - to say, okay, here's the calling, here's the 931 00:30:48.474 --> 00:30:51.134 - requirement, where are you at in life? And 932 00:30:51.559 --> 00:30:52.839 - so if I was calling you and I 933 00:30:52.839 --> 00:30:53.799 - was your bishop, where are you at in 934 00:30:53.799 --> 00:30:55.079 - life? Does this make sense? Do you feel 935 00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:56.480 - like that this is you know, like, where 936 00:30:56.480 --> 00:30:58.859 - are you at, you know, professionally, personally, 937 00:30:59.240 --> 00:30:59.980 - at home? 938 00:31:00.279 --> 00:31:01.960 - Does this make sense? Here's what the time 939 00:31:01.960 --> 00:31:03.480 - commitment looks like. Here's the things that we're 940 00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:05.525 - trying to accomplish in this, and let's counsel 941 00:31:05.525 --> 00:31:06.964 - together a little bit before that. And he 942 00:31:06.964 --> 00:31:08.964 - was proposing that versus, you know, you sit 943 00:31:08.964 --> 00:31:11.605 - down and I say, brother Kurt. No. Right. 944 00:31:11.605 --> 00:31:13.605 - Right. The Lord is revealed. The Lord is 945 00:31:13.605 --> 00:31:16.484 - revealed to me that. Yeah. And so and 946 00:31:16.484 --> 00:31:18.085 - then invite them to go away and and 947 00:31:18.085 --> 00:31:20.005 - pray about that. You know, once we both 948 00:31:20.005 --> 00:31:22.309 - have counseled together, that we then pray to 949 00:31:22.309 --> 00:31:23.509 - make sure that this is the right thing 950 00:31:23.509 --> 00:31:24.789 - for both of us. And sometimes I think 951 00:31:24.789 --> 00:31:25.670 - there's still a place to be able to 952 00:31:25.670 --> 00:31:26.950 - say, Hey, you know, I know you got 953 00:31:26.950 --> 00:31:28.630 - on, but even after listening to this, man, 954 00:31:28.630 --> 00:31:30.150 - we're in need. We think that you're the 955 00:31:30.150 --> 00:31:31.450 - person is that, you know, 956 00:31:31.830 --> 00:31:33.190 - could you face this really? Could you do 957 00:31:33.190 --> 00:31:34.230 - this? And so I don't think it means 958 00:31:34.230 --> 00:31:36.134 - that we just always go for convenience. There 959 00:31:36.134 --> 00:31:37.654 - are times in life when, you know, the 960 00:31:37.654 --> 00:31:38.934 - Lord wants us to put things on the 961 00:31:38.934 --> 00:31:41.174 - altar of sacrifice and to do things that 962 00:31:41.174 --> 00:31:42.615 - are difficult to be able to move work 963 00:31:42.615 --> 00:31:44.134 - forward. And that's how all work is in 964 00:31:44.134 --> 00:31:46.294 - life. But by starting that council, what does 965 00:31:46.294 --> 00:31:47.970 - it mean? Well, it means that, well, let's 966 00:31:47.970 --> 00:31:50.049 - go downstream. So we're gonna, we'll do two 967 00:31:50.049 --> 00:31:52.609 - examples. So first to start, counseling together to 968 00:31:52.609 --> 00:31:53.970 - figure out, do we have the bandwidth, is 969 00:31:53.970 --> 00:31:55.490 - the right fit? We feel like that we've 970 00:31:55.490 --> 00:31:57.170 - got the right skills and capabilities to make 971 00:31:57.170 --> 00:31:59.170 - this. I understand that the Lord, you know, 972 00:31:59.170 --> 00:32:01.204 - qualifies who he calls, you know. But at 973 00:32:01.204 --> 00:32:02.644 - the same time, there are some things that 974 00:32:02.644 --> 00:32:04.005 - are just not a good fit. And other 975 00:32:04.005 --> 00:32:05.765 - people are gonna suffer if you call that 976 00:32:05.765 --> 00:32:07.684 - person to that position just because they just 977 00:32:07.684 --> 00:32:10.164 - don't have what that really is needing. So, 978 00:32:10.164 --> 00:32:11.445 - I mean, we know this when it comes 979 00:32:11.445 --> 00:32:13.365 - to music and more choir, but sometimes we 980 00:32:13.365 --> 00:32:14.884 - we fudge a little bit on the operating 981 00:32:14.884 --> 00:32:15.384 - positions. 982 00:32:15.750 --> 00:32:17.829 - Okay. So now let's think about people that 983 00:32:17.829 --> 00:32:20.950 - are also in callings as well. And somebody, 984 00:32:20.950 --> 00:32:22.789 - you know, gets called in new and maybe 985 00:32:22.789 --> 00:32:24.710 - they're, you know, over a part of the 986 00:32:24.710 --> 00:32:26.309 - primary or young men's, and then they they 987 00:32:26.309 --> 00:32:27.750 - change everything. They say, okay. We were doing 988 00:32:27.750 --> 00:32:28.869 - all of this. We're gonna change all of 989 00:32:28.869 --> 00:32:30.230 - this, and now we're expecting you to do 990 00:32:30.230 --> 00:32:31.125 - all of these things. 991 00:32:31.525 --> 00:32:34.005 - Versus, hey. We'd like to counsel together on 992 00:32:34.005 --> 00:32:35.365 - some new goals that we have, and we 993 00:32:35.365 --> 00:32:36.724 - just would like to figure out where you 994 00:32:36.724 --> 00:32:38.484 - all are. You know, what's life like for 995 00:32:38.484 --> 00:32:39.765 - you now? What kind of time do you 996 00:32:39.765 --> 00:32:42.484 - have? You know, how demanding are your other 997 00:32:42.484 --> 00:32:44.325 - commitments that you've made with the Lord and 998 00:32:44.325 --> 00:32:46.164 - your wife and your friends and your family 999 00:32:46.164 --> 00:32:48.119 - and your work and where are you at? 1000 00:32:48.119 --> 00:32:50.600 - And so in both scenarios, we're trying to 1001 00:32:50.600 --> 00:32:51.660 - tune in to 1002 00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:53.100 - where that individual 1003 00:32:53.559 --> 00:32:54.840 - is in their life to be able to. 1004 00:32:54.840 --> 00:32:56.119 - What can they put on the altar of 1005 00:32:56.119 --> 00:32:58.279 - sacrifice? How much shoulder can they put on 1006 00:32:58.279 --> 00:32:58.940 - that wheel? 1007 00:32:59.355 --> 00:33:00.734 - So in the front end, 1008 00:33:01.035 --> 00:33:03.115 - we're collaborating together to figure out, should we 1009 00:33:03.115 --> 00:33:05.755 - make this call? Downstream, as we make changes 1010 00:33:05.755 --> 00:33:07.595 - in callings, we're trying to figure out where 1011 00:33:07.595 --> 00:33:09.835 - people are. There's two practices that we, from 1012 00:33:09.835 --> 00:33:11.595 - a work perspective, that we call these. One 1013 00:33:11.595 --> 00:33:13.490 - is called turn out your pockets. And that 1014 00:33:13.490 --> 00:33:14.630 - is as you're prioritizing 1015 00:33:15.410 --> 00:33:17.330 - and you're you're getting clear on what it 1016 00:33:17.330 --> 00:33:19.650 - is that you want to accomplish, you get 1017 00:33:19.650 --> 00:33:21.750 - those things clear first. So imagine one, 1018 00:33:22.130 --> 00:33:24.369 - two, three on the board. And then you 1019 00:33:24.369 --> 00:33:26.775 - say, okay, we'll draw a little waterline. And 1020 00:33:26.934 --> 00:33:29.095 - everything below this waterline, we wanted to have 1021 00:33:29.095 --> 00:33:29.595 - everybody 1022 00:33:30.055 --> 00:33:31.974 - write down all of the things that you're 1023 00:33:31.974 --> 00:33:33.894 - working on, that you don't feel like that 1024 00:33:33.894 --> 00:33:36.455 - you can just immediately eliminate. It's trivial. If 1025 00:33:36.455 --> 00:33:38.214 - it's not trivial, and it's not one of 1026 00:33:38.214 --> 00:33:40.409 - these three things, write it down on a 1027 00:33:40.409 --> 00:33:41.769 - sticky note. Let's put it on the board. 1028 00:33:41.769 --> 00:33:42.589 - Well, what happens? 1029 00:33:42.970 --> 00:33:44.089 - A lot of things are gonna be on 1030 00:33:44.089 --> 00:33:46.009 - that board. It's gonna be outrageous. You know? 1031 00:33:46.009 --> 00:33:47.369 - So so now all of a sudden, we're 1032 00:33:47.369 --> 00:33:49.369 - getting you know, if I did this if 1033 00:33:49.369 --> 00:33:50.569 - I was your boss and I did this, 1034 00:33:50.569 --> 00:33:51.849 - and it's okay. Now let's figure out how 1035 00:33:51.849 --> 00:33:53.210 - we really gonna do these priorities. What do 1036 00:33:53.210 --> 00:33:54.329 - we gotta do with the rest of this? 1037 00:33:54.329 --> 00:33:55.394 - Let's figure this out. Now all of a 1038 00:33:55.394 --> 00:33:57.075 - sudden, what do you know about me? That 1039 00:33:57.075 --> 00:33:58.855 - you're willing to work with it? Then Yeah. 1040 00:33:59.075 --> 00:34:01.474 - I'm committed to reality. Yeah. Yeah. You know? 1041 00:34:01.474 --> 00:34:03.555 - Imagine that. You know, imagine that. And I 1042 00:34:03.555 --> 00:34:05.315 - wanna I wanna figure out how can we 1043 00:34:05.315 --> 00:34:07.634 - use each other's brainpower to really get serious 1044 00:34:07.634 --> 00:34:09.510 - about priorities. And the same is true when 1045 00:34:09.510 --> 00:34:11.030 - you make a change. There's this other practice 1046 00:34:11.030 --> 00:34:12.550 - called tune in before you jump in. So 1047 00:34:12.550 --> 00:34:14.070 - a jump in looks like this, and oh 1048 00:34:14.070 --> 00:34:16.570 - my gosh. When we were researching this book, 1049 00:34:16.869 --> 00:34:18.390 - I would do these, my whole career, do 1050 00:34:18.390 --> 00:34:20.390 - these drive by delegations. So you're reporting to 1051 00:34:20.390 --> 00:34:21.829 - me and then, and I come to you 1052 00:34:21.829 --> 00:34:23.894 - and I say, Hey, I've got this thing 1053 00:34:23.894 --> 00:34:25.414 - that you got five minutes. I got this 1054 00:34:25.414 --> 00:34:26.295 - thing that I was wondering if you could 1055 00:34:26.295 --> 00:34:27.994 - you take five minutes to look at this? 1056 00:34:28.055 --> 00:34:29.815 - Now what do you know? It's not five 1057 00:34:29.815 --> 00:34:31.735 - minutes. Is it ever five minutes? It's an 1058 00:34:31.735 --> 00:34:33.735 - hour. An hour. Maybe your whole day has 1059 00:34:33.735 --> 00:34:35.719 - just gone up in smoke. And so and 1060 00:34:35.719 --> 00:34:36.599 - then I just come in and said, You 1061 00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:38.279 - got five minutes, which you can't say no 1062 00:34:38.279 --> 00:34:39.559 - to that. And I think I know that. 1063 00:34:39.559 --> 00:34:40.519 - You know, you can't say no to that. 1064 00:34:40.519 --> 00:34:41.880 - And then before you know it, I walked 1065 00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:44.519 - out of your cubicle, your office, whatever, away 1066 00:34:44.519 --> 00:34:46.460 - from you, the hall. You're holding this item. 1067 00:34:47.239 --> 00:34:48.679 - And now you're trying to, it's just kind 1068 00:34:48.679 --> 00:34:49.639 - of blowing up your day. You're trying to 1069 00:34:49.639 --> 00:34:50.599 - figure out, okay, now how do I add 1070 00:34:50.599 --> 00:34:52.295 - this to everything else? Well, that's very disrespectful. 1071 00:34:52.355 --> 00:34:54.194 - That can be frustrating. That can be angering 1072 00:34:54.194 --> 00:34:54.694 - even. 1073 00:34:55.155 --> 00:34:56.835 - That's a jump in. I just came over, 1074 00:34:56.835 --> 00:34:58.355 - jumped in, gave you the thing, drive by 1075 00:34:58.355 --> 00:35:00.755 - delegation. I'm out. Now check this out. This 1076 00:35:00.755 --> 00:35:02.034 - is what we learned from these leaders. And 1077 00:35:02.034 --> 00:35:03.849 - by the way, I jump in. Like my 1078 00:35:03.849 --> 00:35:05.690 - problem throughout. Oh my gosh. Like if I 1079 00:35:05.690 --> 00:35:06.889 - had a quarter of every single time, I 1080 00:35:06.889 --> 00:35:08.670 - just jumped in and gave something to somebody. 1081 00:35:08.889 --> 00:35:10.969 - Yeah. There was little voodoo dolls of me 1082 00:35:10.969 --> 00:35:12.489 - in the offices I worked in because I 1083 00:35:12.489 --> 00:35:14.089 - was just, you know, famous for just going 1084 00:35:14.089 --> 00:35:16.329 - by and unloading things on people. But imagine 1085 00:35:16.329 --> 00:35:17.984 - this. What if instead I say, come to 1086 00:35:17.984 --> 00:35:18.644 - you, Sacred, 1087 00:35:19.025 --> 00:35:20.464 - what are you going on right now? What 1088 00:35:20.464 --> 00:35:22.385 - are you working on? And you tell me. 1089 00:35:22.385 --> 00:35:23.905 - Yeah. Yeah. And I listen, ask a few 1090 00:35:23.905 --> 00:35:25.585 - questions. And I say, hey. I just picked 1091 00:35:25.585 --> 00:35:27.344 - this up from a client. Do you mind 1092 00:35:27.344 --> 00:35:28.864 - if we walk around this together, talk about 1093 00:35:28.864 --> 00:35:30.144 - it a little bit to to see, does 1094 00:35:30.144 --> 00:35:31.424 - it make sense for you to take this 1095 00:35:31.424 --> 00:35:33.143 - on? So you and I work it on 1096 00:35:33.335 --> 00:35:35.061 - we're we're if we figure it out, we 1097 00:35:35.253 --> 00:35:36.788 - you understand what it is, you ask a 1098 00:35:36.788 --> 00:35:38.323 - bunch of questions, and I say, okay, for 1099 00:35:38.323 --> 00:35:39.858 - you to do this well, first of all, 1100 00:35:39.858 --> 00:35:41.393 - what will it take? And then what will 1101 00:35:41.393 --> 00:35:42.928 - you have to say no to? Now think 1102 00:35:42.928 --> 00:35:44.463 - about how different that experience was. Yeah. It's 1103 00:35:44.463 --> 00:35:46.255 - huge. And now I walk away. We made 1104 00:35:46.255 --> 00:35:48.255 - a better decision together because now we're collaborating, 1105 00:35:48.255 --> 00:35:49.855 - we're negotiating together. Should we even do that 1106 00:35:49.855 --> 00:35:52.094 - thing? And if if you do take it 1107 00:35:52.094 --> 00:35:54.414 - on, I mean, you were respected, you were 1108 00:35:54.414 --> 00:35:54.914 - seen, 1109 00:35:55.215 --> 00:35:56.815 - and maybe I even had to take something 1110 00:35:56.815 --> 00:35:58.610 - off your plate. That's one of the questions 1111 00:35:58.610 --> 00:36:00.369 - you ask. If you do make the deal, 1112 00:36:00.369 --> 00:36:01.489 - the right question for me to ask as 1113 00:36:01.489 --> 00:36:03.250 - leaders, what can I take off your plate? 1114 00:36:03.250 --> 00:36:04.769 - And so we call that the lift question. 1115 00:36:04.769 --> 00:36:06.530 - So the idea here is that these are 1116 00:36:06.530 --> 00:36:08.210 - two ways that you can tune in. Turn 1117 00:36:08.210 --> 00:36:10.530 - out your pockets, clarify priorities, clarify what you're 1118 00:36:10.530 --> 00:36:12.210 - doing, and say, okay, what are all the 1119 00:36:12.210 --> 00:36:14.644 - other things that we're doing that maybe we 1120 00:36:14.644 --> 00:36:16.485 - should really decide? Are we gonna keep doing 1121 00:36:16.485 --> 00:36:18.244 - those things because we're not gonna be able 1122 00:36:18.244 --> 00:36:19.204 - to have the space to work on these 1123 00:36:19.204 --> 00:36:20.965 - priorities? Or to tune in before you jump 1124 00:36:20.965 --> 00:36:23.144 - in when you're making these little changes. Because 1125 00:36:23.204 --> 00:36:24.905 - every single time you make a little change 1126 00:36:24.965 --> 00:36:26.859 - or a big change, it has a ripple 1127 00:36:26.859 --> 00:36:29.179 - effect. And that causes people all of a 1128 00:36:29.179 --> 00:36:30.780 - sudden to feel like, man, I can get 1129 00:36:30.780 --> 00:36:32.719 - into work with this person because, 1130 00:36:33.099 --> 00:36:34.619 - first of all, they don't have a perception 1131 00:36:34.619 --> 00:36:35.119 - problem. 1132 00:36:35.500 --> 00:36:36.239 - They recognize 1133 00:36:36.699 --> 00:36:38.960 - what I've got on, and they recognize 1134 00:36:39.744 --> 00:36:41.105 - what changes we need to make it to 1135 00:36:41.105 --> 00:36:42.545 - where I can really lean into this work. 1136 00:36:42.545 --> 00:36:43.824 - So let's get this back to your question 1137 00:36:43.824 --> 00:36:45.684 - now. So what about callings? 1138 00:36:46.065 --> 00:36:47.905 - What about changes once callings are made? Yeah. 1139 00:36:47.905 --> 00:36:49.744 - You gotta counsel with people. You gotta figure 1140 00:36:49.744 --> 00:36:51.425 - out where they are. You gotta it doesn't 1141 00:36:51.425 --> 00:36:52.945 - mean you can't extend the calling. Right. But 1142 00:36:52.945 --> 00:36:54.164 - you're gonna be wiser 1143 00:36:54.630 --> 00:36:57.109 - for tuning in first before you jumping right 1144 00:36:57.109 --> 00:36:59.109 - into extending that calling. And the same thing's 1145 00:36:59.109 --> 00:37:00.809 - true when you make changes 1146 00:37:01.109 --> 00:37:02.809 - to people that are already in callings. 1147 00:37:03.269 --> 00:37:05.269 - Yeah. And, you know, going back to the 1148 00:37:05.269 --> 00:37:06.089 - best intentions, 1149 00:37:06.695 --> 00:37:09.014 - every leader saying the phrase of, like, we 1150 00:37:09.014 --> 00:37:10.695 - feel like the lord has called you to 1151 00:37:10.695 --> 00:37:13.094 - or it's like Tony Sweat refers to as 1152 00:37:13.094 --> 00:37:15.655 - the spiritual trump card being like, well, we've 1153 00:37:15.655 --> 00:37:17.974 - prayed about it. Yeah. But you can tell 1154 00:37:17.974 --> 00:37:21.269 - no? God no? You know? And I think 1155 00:37:21.269 --> 00:37:23.030 - we just need to step back and realize 1156 00:37:23.030 --> 00:37:25.670 - how manipulative that can be. Right? And and 1157 00:37:25.670 --> 00:37:28.390 - we get there's revelation, there's process, nobody's discounting 1158 00:37:28.390 --> 00:37:30.550 - that. But to lead with that, sometimes it's 1159 00:37:30.550 --> 00:37:32.390 - like, okay. You've backed me into a corner 1160 00:37:32.390 --> 00:37:34.070 - here. Right? Well, and, you know, just for 1161 00:37:34.070 --> 00:37:34.809 - me anyways, 1162 00:37:35.224 --> 00:37:36.605 - from a revelation standpoint, 1163 00:37:37.065 --> 00:37:38.905 - I'd say that a lot of times I 1164 00:37:38.905 --> 00:37:40.344 - go back and ask when I learn new 1165 00:37:40.344 --> 00:37:42.824 - information. Mhmm. And then new answers come. Right. 1166 00:37:42.824 --> 00:37:44.265 - Right. And how often does that happen to 1167 00:37:44.265 --> 00:37:45.545 - you in your life? Right. You know, that 1168 00:37:45.545 --> 00:37:47.385 - you you received what you thought was an 1169 00:37:47.385 --> 00:37:50.230 - answer, and then you learned something Yeah. Because 1170 00:37:50.230 --> 00:37:52.230 - God knows that we don't know everything, and 1171 00:37:52.230 --> 00:37:53.909 - he expects us to go do our homework. 1172 00:37:53.909 --> 00:37:56.789 - Yeah. And then once we we learn this 1173 00:37:56.789 --> 00:37:58.630 - thing, whatever it is, we go right back 1174 00:37:58.630 --> 00:38:00.150 - to God. We know we've gotta pray again 1175 00:38:00.150 --> 00:38:02.125 - because we've got new information, and we get 1176 00:38:02.125 --> 00:38:04.605 - a slightly different or completely different answer. And 1177 00:38:04.605 --> 00:38:06.704 - so I think that this still really leverages 1178 00:38:06.765 --> 00:38:08.925 - the idea of what makes revelation possible. You 1179 00:38:08.925 --> 00:38:10.364 - you know, you you go ask. You ask 1180 00:38:10.364 --> 00:38:11.025 - the people, 1181 00:38:11.405 --> 00:38:12.845 - and and you ask God. And then you 1182 00:38:12.845 --> 00:38:15.090 - might have new information that maybe shifts the 1183 00:38:15.090 --> 00:38:16.930 - direction or whatever. And but I think there 1184 00:38:16.930 --> 00:38:18.550 - is, like, this level of respect 1185 00:38:19.090 --> 00:38:21.190 - that that person will feel when you're like, 1186 00:38:21.250 --> 00:38:21.989 - I recognize 1187 00:38:22.369 --> 00:38:23.269 - that you have 1188 00:38:23.730 --> 00:38:26.289 - a very busy schedule. You've got teenagers at 1189 00:38:26.289 --> 00:38:27.730 - home. You got I mean, whatever the thing 1190 00:38:27.730 --> 00:38:29.575 - is, tell me, what do I not realize? 1191 00:38:29.575 --> 00:38:31.735 - What else do you have going? Right? Yeah. 1192 00:38:31.735 --> 00:38:33.974 - And and what happens when so it I 1193 00:38:33.974 --> 00:38:35.494 - love that you said the word respect because 1194 00:38:35.494 --> 00:38:38.215 - the research shows that the assignments that come 1195 00:38:38.215 --> 00:38:41.390 - to us, what that assignment is, It matters 1196 00:38:41.390 --> 00:38:43.789 - almost more how it comes to us than 1197 00:38:43.789 --> 00:38:46.110 - what the assignment is. If work comes to 1198 00:38:46.110 --> 00:38:47.710 - us in a way where we feel seen 1199 00:38:47.710 --> 00:38:49.329 - and respected and understood, 1200 00:38:49.950 --> 00:38:51.869 - we're much more likely to throw our souls 1201 00:38:51.869 --> 00:38:53.550 - at it, even if maybe it's not our 1202 00:38:53.550 --> 00:38:55.469 - favorite thing to do. So you get access 1203 00:38:55.469 --> 00:38:56.210 - to my discretionary 1204 00:38:57.045 --> 00:38:58.264 - effort, my heart, 1205 00:38:58.644 --> 00:39:00.405 - if you respect me in the way that 1206 00:39:00.405 --> 00:39:02.005 - you ask me to do things. If I 1207 00:39:02.005 --> 00:39:03.844 - don't think that I'm seen, if I don't 1208 00:39:03.844 --> 00:39:04.984 - think that I'm respected, 1209 00:39:05.444 --> 00:39:07.925 - you don't get access to my whole soul. 1210 00:39:07.925 --> 00:39:11.160 - That discretionary effort, I'm gonna pull that back. 1211 00:39:11.380 --> 00:39:14.099 - And so being aware that the way that 1212 00:39:14.099 --> 00:39:15.719 - the calling is extended 1213 00:39:16.019 --> 00:39:18.599 - or the way that the task is requested 1214 00:39:19.059 --> 00:39:21.059 - is just as important as the calling or 1215 00:39:21.059 --> 00:39:22.039 - the task itself. 1216 00:39:22.340 --> 00:39:24.260 - Man, I think that that those people, both 1217 00:39:24.260 --> 00:39:25.875 - of us, in our relationship a lot of 1218 00:39:25.875 --> 00:39:28.275 - good. Yeah. And there is this dynamic of, 1219 00:39:28.275 --> 00:39:30.035 - like, for the bishopric side of the desk 1220 00:39:30.035 --> 00:39:32.195 - where they're like, I'm just you're, like, one 1221 00:39:32.195 --> 00:39:33.635 - of six of my list of people I 1222 00:39:33.635 --> 00:39:35.394 - gotta talk I'm just trying to move on 1223 00:39:35.394 --> 00:39:37.000 - to the next thing where they're like, this 1224 00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:38.760 - is gonna imp like, this is a life 1225 00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:40.920 - Yeah. Step. Like, this is gonna impact my 1226 00:39:40.920 --> 00:39:42.280 - life for the next year or two years 1227 00:39:42.280 --> 00:39:44.599 - or or whatever. Yeah. And they're thinking about 1228 00:39:44.599 --> 00:39:46.039 - it differently leading up to that meeting, then 1229 00:39:46.039 --> 00:39:47.880 - the bishop Rickman was just like, I just 1230 00:39:47.880 --> 00:39:49.719 - gotta extend this call so we can sustain 1231 00:39:49.719 --> 00:39:51.764 - you and move on. And so sometimes I 1232 00:39:51.764 --> 00:39:53.924 - feel like the more you can create space 1233 00:39:53.924 --> 00:39:55.764 - for that person to go through it because 1234 00:39:55.764 --> 00:39:56.505 - you've had 1235 00:39:56.804 --> 00:39:58.724 - maybe three meetings that's led up to this 1236 00:39:58.724 --> 00:40:01.924 - decision, and they've had five seconds of you 1237 00:40:01.924 --> 00:40:04.244 - saying what the calling is processes. So like 1238 00:40:04.244 --> 00:40:06.360 - you said, like, why don't you take this 1239 00:40:06.380 --> 00:40:07.980 - and come back to me? Or you go 1240 00:40:07.980 --> 00:40:09.820 - on your own journey with this, and maybe 1241 00:40:09.820 --> 00:40:11.660 - there's more information that you'll find, you'll bring 1242 00:40:11.660 --> 00:40:13.260 - here, and we'll make a better decision. But, 1243 00:40:13.260 --> 00:40:15.200 - again, it simulates that better culture 1244 00:40:15.579 --> 00:40:18.300 - as we are, quote, unquote, delegating or offering 1245 00:40:18.300 --> 00:40:19.119 - people callings 1246 00:40:19.434 --> 00:40:21.534 - that you want them to succeed at. Right? 1247 00:40:21.594 --> 00:40:24.074 - Yeah. Yeah. Well said. And I appreciate just 1248 00:40:24.074 --> 00:40:26.074 - all the like, a lot of this as 1249 00:40:26.074 --> 00:40:27.835 - far as creating that focus and a high 1250 00:40:27.835 --> 00:40:29.835 - impact, it is in that there's a lot 1251 00:40:29.835 --> 00:40:32.589 - of one to one interaction that's needed. Right? 1252 00:40:32.589 --> 00:40:34.030 - You can't just be the leader that's sort 1253 00:40:34.030 --> 00:40:35.949 - of speaking to the room, like, this is 1254 00:40:35.949 --> 00:40:37.630 - the direction we're going and everybody get on 1255 00:40:37.630 --> 00:40:39.550 - board and and, I mean, that's part of 1256 00:40:39.550 --> 00:40:41.389 - it too. But to really understand that one 1257 00:40:41.389 --> 00:40:43.869 - to one interview and and even those principles 1258 00:40:43.869 --> 00:40:45.230 - you talked about, I'm thinking in the context 1259 00:40:45.230 --> 00:40:47.514 - of, like, a ministering interview where I would 1260 00:40:47.514 --> 00:40:48.875 - guess 95% 1261 00:40:48.875 --> 00:40:50.954 - of ministering interviews start with, so how are 1262 00:40:50.954 --> 00:40:52.954 - your families doing? Yeah. Right? When they could 1263 00:40:52.954 --> 00:40:54.635 - start with, like, what's going on in your 1264 00:40:54.635 --> 00:40:56.875 - life? Yeah. Like, because this person's probably thinking, 1265 00:40:56.875 --> 00:40:58.974 - great. I haven't even thought about my families. 1266 00:40:59.250 --> 00:41:01.090 - And here I am just to be held 1267 00:41:01.090 --> 00:41:03.170 - accountable and, you know, then they feel that's 1268 00:41:03.170 --> 00:41:05.329 - a negative experience for them. And so anything 1269 00:41:05.329 --> 00:41:07.510 - else about this, like, one to one interview 1270 00:41:07.570 --> 00:41:10.449 - experience to other taxes or things that make 1271 00:41:10.449 --> 00:41:12.369 - that go well? It's a good question to 1272 00:41:12.369 --> 00:41:14.130 - ask because here's the truth. The the one 1273 00:41:14.130 --> 00:41:15.885 - on one place. Like, everywhere 1274 00:41:16.905 --> 00:41:19.065 - in this research, at some point, we were 1275 00:41:19.065 --> 00:41:20.265 - like, do we just write a book on 1276 00:41:20.265 --> 00:41:22.285 - one on one? Yeah. You know, just because 1277 00:41:22.425 --> 00:41:25.144 - in in so many interactions, the stories that 1278 00:41:25.144 --> 00:41:27.385 - we would get from these professionals was, you 1279 00:41:27.385 --> 00:41:29.039 - know, my boss would 1280 00:41:29.339 --> 00:41:31.099 - come meet with me for fifteen minutes every 1281 00:41:31.099 --> 00:41:32.619 - week and say, okay. What's the three most 1282 00:41:32.619 --> 00:41:34.219 - important things that you have on? And what 1283 00:41:34.219 --> 00:41:36.460 - are the three what's a barrier to each 1284 00:41:36.460 --> 00:41:38.619 - of those that you would really like help 1285 00:41:38.619 --> 00:41:39.599 - with removing? 1286 00:41:40.139 --> 00:41:41.819 - Can't do that in a meeting with with, 1287 00:41:41.819 --> 00:41:43.039 - you know, 10 people. 1288 00:41:43.405 --> 00:41:44.925 - And I just over and over and over 1289 00:41:44.925 --> 00:41:46.144 - again, there were these 1290 00:41:46.445 --> 00:41:48.365 - or, you know, in that one on one, 1291 00:41:48.365 --> 00:41:50.204 - there's a there's a a principle in there 1292 00:41:50.204 --> 00:41:52.045 - called put growth on the agenda. And the 1293 00:41:52.045 --> 00:41:53.265 - idea is is that 1294 00:41:53.565 --> 00:41:55.744 - if at work you don't see your future 1295 00:41:56.119 --> 00:41:58.039 - and the activity that you're investing in, it's 1296 00:41:58.039 --> 00:41:59.880 - really hard to stay committed to it. You 1297 00:41:59.880 --> 00:42:02.679 - start thinking about alternative avenues, you know. If 1298 00:42:02.679 --> 00:42:04.679 - you don't see your future in your work, 1299 00:42:04.679 --> 00:42:07.079 - you'll start looking elsewhere. And it's difficult to 1300 00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:09.405 - give your discretional effort again if you don't 1301 00:42:09.405 --> 00:42:11.005 - see your future in work. And so one 1302 00:42:11.005 --> 00:42:12.605 - of the things that these leaders were really 1303 00:42:12.605 --> 00:42:14.525 - good at doing is just for at least 1304 00:42:14.525 --> 00:42:16.224 - ten minutes a month, putting 1305 00:42:16.925 --> 00:42:18.525 - those people that they were doing one on 1306 00:42:18.525 --> 00:42:21.005 - ones with, putting that individual's growth on the 1307 00:42:21.005 --> 00:42:23.069 - agenda, Made sure that it made it on 1308 00:42:23.069 --> 00:42:24.349 - as an agenda item, and they'd ask at 1309 00:42:24.349 --> 00:42:27.230 - least two questions. What is the next awesome 1310 00:42:27.230 --> 00:42:29.889 - or wicked looking opportunity look like for you? 1311 00:42:30.029 --> 00:42:31.549 - And if they didn't know, they would help 1312 00:42:31.549 --> 00:42:34.190 - them at least continually ask that conversation so 1313 00:42:34.190 --> 00:42:35.549 - the person could start to figure it out. 1314 00:42:35.549 --> 00:42:37.545 - Here's what I think I want next. And 1315 00:42:37.545 --> 00:42:40.364 - then what skills or experience will you need 1316 00:42:40.905 --> 00:42:42.664 - to accomplish that? Well, then now all of 1317 00:42:42.664 --> 00:42:44.425 - a sudden, in the rest of the agenda, 1318 00:42:44.425 --> 00:42:46.525 - I can be on the lookout for opportunities 1319 00:42:46.585 --> 00:42:48.264 - that I know would give that individual skill 1320 00:42:48.264 --> 00:42:49.005 - and experience 1321 00:42:49.385 --> 00:42:51.304 - that they need, and I really need that 1322 00:42:51.304 --> 00:42:53.059 - thing done. And so all of a sudden 1323 00:42:53.059 --> 00:42:55.619 - now, their kind of true north for their 1324 00:42:55.619 --> 00:42:58.340 - life is connected momentarily with the true north 1325 00:42:58.340 --> 00:43:00.179 - for this organization or for this team. And 1326 00:43:00.179 --> 00:43:01.780 - now the team wins, they win, and they 1327 00:43:01.780 --> 00:43:03.140 - can give their whole hearts to it for 1328 00:43:03.140 --> 00:43:05.954 - a period of time. So that usually happens 1329 00:43:05.954 --> 00:43:08.115 - in one on one, putting someone's growth on 1330 00:43:08.115 --> 00:43:09.715 - the agenda. And, man, it's a service that 1331 00:43:09.715 --> 00:43:10.835 - you can do. On the on the flip 1332 00:43:10.835 --> 00:43:12.675 - side, there was this fellow we interviewed where 1333 00:43:12.675 --> 00:43:13.735 - his boss always 1334 00:43:14.035 --> 00:43:16.055 - would say, okay. Yeah. I so 1335 00:43:16.434 --> 00:43:19.820 - this this fellow, professional, amazing guy, would bring 1336 00:43:20.039 --> 00:43:22.280 - this one question he wanted to ask about 1337 00:43:22.280 --> 00:43:24.519 - professional his own professional development to his boss. 1338 00:43:24.519 --> 00:43:25.800 - And his boss would always say, okay. Let's 1339 00:43:25.800 --> 00:43:27.239 - get to that. But then there was never 1340 00:43:27.239 --> 00:43:28.840 - time for it. So after a while, he 1341 00:43:28.840 --> 00:43:29.739 - started to feel, 1342 00:43:30.039 --> 00:43:31.880 - kind of even sheepish bringing it up. And 1343 00:43:31.880 --> 00:43:33.099 - then that turned into 1344 00:43:33.635 --> 00:43:35.315 - so much stress that he was feeling physically 1345 00:43:35.315 --> 00:43:37.315 - ill, and it was because he knew that 1346 00:43:37.315 --> 00:43:38.534 - his his boss 1347 00:43:38.914 --> 00:43:41.714 - couldn't wouldn't take into consideration the growth he 1348 00:43:41.714 --> 00:43:43.474 - needed to get to the next level of 1349 00:43:43.474 --> 00:43:45.074 - success in his career, which was important to 1350 00:43:45.074 --> 00:43:47.074 - his family. And, ultimately, that started to make 1351 00:43:47.074 --> 00:43:49.130 - him ill. It's the way that one on 1352 00:43:49.130 --> 00:43:50.989 - one's managed. But I mean, from a prioritization, 1353 00:43:51.289 --> 00:43:53.530 - from helping people clear things, from putting growth 1354 00:43:53.530 --> 00:43:56.030 - on the agenda, to asking people, 1355 00:43:56.329 --> 00:43:57.789 - do you have the space 1356 00:43:58.410 --> 00:43:58.910 - necessary 1357 00:43:59.690 --> 00:44:01.610 - to both focus on and the resources you 1358 00:44:01.610 --> 00:44:03.210 - need to do that big project that we've 1359 00:44:03.210 --> 00:44:04.364 - just asked you to do? Do you have 1360 00:44:04.364 --> 00:44:06.204 - the information that you need? This all happens 1361 00:44:06.204 --> 00:44:07.485 - in the one on one. Yeah. And if 1362 00:44:07.485 --> 00:44:09.804 - you can nail it, those little pauses, those 1363 00:44:09.804 --> 00:44:12.525 - little one on ones, you can completely transform 1364 00:44:12.525 --> 00:44:14.445 - people's ability to do great work. And, you 1365 00:44:14.445 --> 00:44:15.885 - know, that's what we we've learned, you know, 1366 00:44:15.885 --> 00:44:18.445 - that the organization Gallup. Gallup is one of 1367 00:44:18.445 --> 00:44:20.039 - the world's foremost 1368 00:44:20.579 --> 00:44:21.079 - workplace 1369 00:44:21.619 --> 00:44:24.440 - analysts that study millions and millions of professionals. 1370 00:44:24.579 --> 00:44:26.179 - And what they've learned, they said one of 1371 00:44:26.179 --> 00:44:29.219 - the greatest insights that they've had through all 1372 00:44:29.219 --> 00:44:30.519 - their years is this. 1373 00:44:30.900 --> 00:44:33.539 - People wanna have an awesome job. Everybody wants 1374 00:44:33.539 --> 00:44:34.760 - a good job. Mhmm. 1375 00:44:35.195 --> 00:44:37.135 - And in order to have a good job, 1376 00:44:37.195 --> 00:44:38.574 - you really need a good manager. 1377 00:44:38.875 --> 00:44:40.335 - And if you don't have both, 1378 00:44:40.715 --> 00:44:42.715 - life can be miserable. Yeah. And it's the 1379 00:44:42.715 --> 00:44:44.715 - same in church leadership. So true. Yeah. People 1380 00:44:44.715 --> 00:44:45.914 - want to have a calling where they feel 1381 00:44:45.914 --> 00:44:47.755 - like that they can contribute in a in 1382 00:44:47.755 --> 00:44:49.594 - a way that's meaningful to the Lord and 1383 00:44:49.594 --> 00:44:51.400 - and to the and to the ward. And 1384 00:44:51.400 --> 00:44:53.420 - they also really wanna have a great leader. 1385 00:44:53.480 --> 00:44:55.800 - And so much of that, the opportunity's gonna 1386 00:44:55.800 --> 00:44:57.960 - come back into these one on ones. Yeah. 1387 00:44:57.960 --> 00:45:00.920 - So true. And that that concept of, you 1388 00:45:00.920 --> 00:45:02.380 - know, putting growth on the agenda, 1389 00:45:02.844 --> 00:45:05.164 - I feel like we have a decent model. 1390 00:45:05.164 --> 00:45:06.605 - At least we're reaching for it in the 1391 00:45:06.605 --> 00:45:09.324 - youth experience where there's that mission experience that 1392 00:45:09.324 --> 00:45:11.164 - we're all sort of reaching for even if 1393 00:45:11.164 --> 00:45:13.485 - the youth maybe isn't jiving with it or 1394 00:45:13.485 --> 00:45:15.085 - feels like maybe they won't serve or whatever, 1395 00:45:15.085 --> 00:45:17.500 - but it's still a rallying point. Right? And 1396 00:45:17.500 --> 00:45:19.659 - then we come home or the, you know, 1397 00:45:19.659 --> 00:45:20.639 - the middle age 1398 00:45:21.260 --> 00:45:22.859 - person in the ward is sorta like, you 1399 00:45:22.859 --> 00:45:24.460 - know what? Can you just contribute in the 1400 00:45:24.460 --> 00:45:26.699 - ward? And that's not Yeah. That's not a 1401 00:45:26.780 --> 00:45:29.019 - that doesn't excite somebody. During to the end 1402 00:45:29.019 --> 00:45:31.655 - is longish. Yeah. Yeah. It's right. It's very 1403 00:45:31.655 --> 00:45:33.275 - longish. Yeah. It's very unmilestone. 1404 00:45:33.974 --> 00:45:35.974 - Yeah. Where if you can help them find 1405 00:45:35.974 --> 00:45:38.375 - their place in the the broader vision or 1406 00:45:38.375 --> 00:45:39.514 - the focused vision 1407 00:45:39.815 --> 00:45:41.694 - of the war, then it's like, oh Yeah. 1408 00:45:41.815 --> 00:45:43.349 - I want I want And why is it? 1409 00:45:43.510 --> 00:45:45.510 - Back to the Gallup study. People wanna use 1410 00:45:45.510 --> 00:45:47.349 - their god given talents. We would call those 1411 00:45:47.349 --> 00:45:49.130 - spiritual gifts to contribute. 1412 00:45:49.430 --> 00:45:51.190 - Mhmm. We want those to grow. We know 1413 00:45:51.190 --> 00:45:53.110 - what it feels like. It's exhilarating to use 1414 00:45:53.110 --> 00:45:54.630 - your talents in a way that's useful to 1415 00:45:54.630 --> 00:45:56.309 - other people. We're built for it as humans. 1416 00:45:56.309 --> 00:45:58.730 - It's it's the reason why we exist. 1417 00:45:59.184 --> 00:46:01.505 - And so if you can have that at 1418 00:46:01.664 --> 00:46:02.885 - in your church experience, 1419 00:46:03.264 --> 00:46:05.664 - if your leader can help you, can leverage 1420 00:46:05.664 --> 00:46:07.664 - your talents, give you the space and the 1421 00:46:07.664 --> 00:46:09.444 - clarity to be able to do something 1422 00:46:09.744 --> 00:46:12.065 - that is meaningful to you and to others 1423 00:46:12.065 --> 00:46:12.964 - through your capability, 1424 00:46:13.739 --> 00:46:16.059 - this is what creates life satisfaction. This is 1425 00:46:16.059 --> 00:46:17.280 - how we thrive. Yeah. 1426 00:46:17.659 --> 00:46:20.159 - Anything else around the concept of, like, creating 1427 00:46:20.380 --> 00:46:21.440 - boundaries or 1428 00:46:21.980 --> 00:46:25.514 - staying focused on this high impact Yeah. Where, 1429 00:46:25.674 --> 00:46:27.194 - you know, and, again, going back to that 1430 00:46:27.194 --> 00:46:28.875 - bishop where he's just can't let go of 1431 00:46:28.875 --> 00:46:31.434 - the text messages or the notifications because he 1432 00:46:31.434 --> 00:46:33.034 - feels he has to be there. Or I 1433 00:46:33.034 --> 00:46:35.275 - see this where, you know, a bishop any 1434 00:46:35.275 --> 00:46:37.650 - phone call can derail their evening because, it's 1435 00:46:37.730 --> 00:46:39.650 - kinda my job. Right? I I gotta run 1436 00:46:39.650 --> 00:46:41.329 - to these these Yeah. We've briefly touched on 1437 00:46:41.329 --> 00:46:42.529 - two things that we learned in the research, 1438 00:46:42.529 --> 00:46:44.529 - and you've you're asking about the third, which 1439 00:46:44.529 --> 00:46:46.449 - is perfect. Thank you. So first, we talked 1440 00:46:46.449 --> 00:46:48.449 - about the importance of clarity, knowing what's important 1441 00:46:48.449 --> 00:46:50.289 - and what's not, and then working together as 1442 00:46:50.289 --> 00:46:52.414 - a leadership team or as a group of 1443 00:46:52.414 --> 00:46:54.014 - people to be able to really clarify what 1444 00:46:54.014 --> 00:46:56.014 - matters most. We talked about that. We also 1445 00:46:56.014 --> 00:46:57.614 - talked about the idea that it's important to 1446 00:46:57.614 --> 00:46:59.454 - deal with the internal frustration that would take 1447 00:46:59.454 --> 00:47:02.355 - people's focus away from getting into a task, 1448 00:47:02.494 --> 00:47:04.494 - whether that's because they failed or because they 1449 00:47:04.494 --> 00:47:05.934 - can't say the hard thing or they can't 1450 00:47:05.934 --> 00:47:07.510 - see themselves in the work or they're just 1451 00:47:07.590 --> 00:47:09.130 - they don't feel like that you see me, 1452 00:47:09.269 --> 00:47:11.530 - like, in my struggle and so that's distracting. 1453 00:47:11.670 --> 00:47:14.070 - That's dealing with emotional distractions. There's this this 1454 00:47:14.070 --> 00:47:15.910 - other set of behaviors that we found in 1455 00:47:15.910 --> 00:47:17.750 - the book or in the research which we've 1456 00:47:17.750 --> 00:47:20.710 - reported on there, and I really felt honored 1457 00:47:20.710 --> 00:47:22.230 - to report on these leaders because they were 1458 00:47:22.230 --> 00:47:24.525 - just awesome Yeah. At doing these things. And 1459 00:47:24.525 --> 00:47:26.125 - I found myself on the other side where 1460 00:47:26.125 --> 00:47:27.804 - I was like, ugh. Like, I'm really the 1461 00:47:27.804 --> 00:47:29.964 - one that's quite distracting. So it's all about 1462 00:47:29.964 --> 00:47:31.804 - creating buffers. And one of the things, and 1463 00:47:31.804 --> 00:47:33.565 - you just mentioned it, so thank you, is 1464 00:47:33.565 --> 00:47:35.025 - creating boundaries and expectations. 1465 00:47:35.550 --> 00:47:37.949 - So if you can find out what is 1466 00:47:37.949 --> 00:47:39.869 - distracting to people, maybe they don't know what's 1467 00:47:39.869 --> 00:47:41.070 - important or they don't really know how to 1468 00:47:41.070 --> 00:47:42.590 - lean into their calling, they don't really know 1469 00:47:42.590 --> 00:47:43.710 - what the first you know, how do you 1470 00:47:43.710 --> 00:47:45.309 - even start that thing, maybe they don't have 1471 00:47:45.309 --> 00:47:47.869 - the skill or or the resources to be 1472 00:47:47.869 --> 00:47:50.505 - able to get into something, That's important. But 1473 00:47:50.505 --> 00:47:52.744 - then, once you've got people into callings, what's 1474 00:47:52.744 --> 00:47:54.425 - really important is to understand is, like, what 1475 00:47:54.425 --> 00:47:56.264 - would pull you out of that? And is 1476 00:47:56.264 --> 00:47:58.105 - there a way that we're communicating? Is there 1477 00:47:58.105 --> 00:48:00.444 - a way that we're meeting that is distracting 1478 00:48:00.585 --> 00:48:01.885 - you from this thing? 1479 00:48:02.210 --> 00:48:03.409 - And so, you know, one of the things 1480 00:48:03.409 --> 00:48:04.529 - that you can do is just create for 1481 00:48:04.529 --> 00:48:07.089 - example, there's this concept called house rules. How 1482 00:48:07.089 --> 00:48:09.889 - do we communicate? Mhmm. Do we text each 1483 00:48:09.889 --> 00:48:11.829 - other about significant decisions? 1484 00:48:12.210 --> 00:48:13.989 - Or do we hold those things 1485 00:48:14.385 --> 00:48:16.724 - until we can meet face to face? 1486 00:48:17.105 --> 00:48:19.985 - Just clarifying how we're gonna engage in a 1487 00:48:19.985 --> 00:48:22.864 - way that will fully leverage our minds to 1488 00:48:22.864 --> 00:48:24.864 - do the work, whatever the work is. Now 1489 00:48:24.864 --> 00:48:26.065 - all of a sudden you can start to 1490 00:48:26.065 --> 00:48:28.619 - identify, oh yeah. You're like, Sean man, it's 1491 00:48:28.619 --> 00:48:30.539 - really distracting if you like send me those 1492 00:48:30.539 --> 00:48:32.559 - one liners like throughout the night all night. 1493 00:48:32.780 --> 00:48:34.460 - Yeah. You know, I'm thinking that brother such 1494 00:48:34.460 --> 00:48:36.059 - and such needs this and sister such and 1495 00:48:36.059 --> 00:48:37.659 - such needs this and maybe we should consider 1496 00:48:37.659 --> 00:48:39.739 - this and I'm just dreaming my consciousness to 1497 00:48:39.739 --> 00:48:41.934 - you. That might be very distracting to you 1498 00:48:41.934 --> 00:48:43.295 - and you might feel like you're expected to 1499 00:48:43.295 --> 00:48:45.215 - stream your consciousness back to me and I 1500 00:48:45.215 --> 00:48:46.894 - might even want that. But if we can 1501 00:48:46.894 --> 00:48:48.974 - work together to figure out, are we working 1502 00:48:48.974 --> 00:48:50.434 - in a way that's boundaryless? 1503 00:48:50.815 --> 00:48:52.734 - And that's so easy to do in a 1504 00:48:52.734 --> 00:48:55.570 - world with hyper connection and communication. And we're 1505 00:48:55.570 --> 00:48:57.010 - already doing it every other area of our 1506 00:48:57.010 --> 00:48:58.849 - life, so it's gonna spill over. If we 1507 00:48:58.849 --> 00:49:00.449 - can create some house rules on how we 1508 00:49:00.449 --> 00:49:01.909 - communicate, when we meet, 1509 00:49:02.210 --> 00:49:03.829 - do we have to go to every meeting? 1510 00:49:04.130 --> 00:49:05.030 - You name it. 1511 00:49:05.329 --> 00:49:06.389 - Now all of a sudden, 1512 00:49:06.690 --> 00:49:09.010 - I have permission, if you will, to behave 1513 00:49:09.010 --> 00:49:10.425 - in a way that can can help me 1514 00:49:10.425 --> 00:49:12.025 - do the thing that I need to do, 1515 00:49:12.025 --> 00:49:13.785 - and you as well, without us worrying that 1516 00:49:13.785 --> 00:49:15.704 - we're ghosting each other or dogging each other 1517 00:49:15.704 --> 00:49:17.385 - in some kind of way. And now we 1518 00:49:17.385 --> 00:49:19.724 - can kind of encourage people to get into 1519 00:49:20.105 --> 00:49:22.025 - the work. And, you know, for teams that 1520 00:49:22.025 --> 00:49:24.369 - are doing a lot, whether you're, you know, 1521 00:49:24.369 --> 00:49:26.690 - planning a summer, you know, some kind of 1522 00:49:26.690 --> 00:49:28.929 - a summer activity that's, you know, very demanding 1523 00:49:28.929 --> 00:49:30.769 - or you're in a stake presidency, so there's 1524 00:49:30.769 --> 00:49:31.909 - massive amount of communications, 1525 00:49:32.210 --> 00:49:33.909 - there's a lot of parts that you're moving, 1526 00:49:34.369 --> 00:49:36.449 - setting up house rules is important. And if 1527 00:49:36.449 --> 00:49:37.829 - we assume that 1528 00:49:38.184 --> 00:49:39.704 - those things are gonna take care of themselves, 1529 00:49:39.704 --> 00:49:40.984 - well, you know what happens. You know, the 1530 00:49:40.984 --> 00:49:43.784 - most distracting individual is gonna take the cake. 1531 00:49:43.784 --> 00:49:45.625 - We're all gonna have this diffusion chain where 1532 00:49:45.625 --> 00:49:46.984 - we're just gonna do the thing that that 1533 00:49:46.984 --> 00:49:48.904 - person does. And pretty soon, we're like, we're 1534 00:49:48.904 --> 00:49:50.799 - all out of control. And so taking the 1535 00:49:50.799 --> 00:49:53.039 - time to set up shared expectations on how 1536 00:49:53.039 --> 00:49:54.239 - we're going to work together so we can 1537 00:49:54.239 --> 00:49:56.239 - really get each other's best work and give 1538 00:49:56.239 --> 00:49:58.000 - each other space to do their thing, to 1539 00:49:58.000 --> 00:49:59.920 - take away those things that are emotionally bugging 1540 00:49:59.920 --> 00:50:02.239 - us, just some conversations around that goes a 1541 00:50:02.239 --> 00:50:04.260 - long way. And by not having the conversations, 1542 00:50:04.400 --> 00:50:06.135 - you're just going to get a lot less 1543 00:50:06.135 --> 00:50:07.735 - from people. They're just not gonna have the 1544 00:50:07.735 --> 00:50:09.494 - same capacity to give you what you need. 1545 00:50:09.494 --> 00:50:11.175 - Yeah. And I think we take that for 1546 00:50:11.175 --> 00:50:13.735 - granted with in the business world, you know, 1547 00:50:13.735 --> 00:50:15.335 - can you imagine being you know, having a 1548 00:50:15.335 --> 00:50:17.175 - new hire come on and then in the 1549 00:50:17.175 --> 00:50:18.960 - middle of the first meetings, they're like, oh, 1550 00:50:18.960 --> 00:50:20.679 - I actually don't have email. Like, what do 1551 00:50:20.679 --> 00:50:22.079 - you mean you don't have email? Like, that's 1552 00:50:22.079 --> 00:50:24.079 - how we've worked. Like, that's Yeah. Where in 1553 00:50:24.079 --> 00:50:26.659 - church, it's like, there may be somebody who 1554 00:50:26.800 --> 00:50:29.199 - has got their AOL email that they haven't 1555 00:50:29.199 --> 00:50:30.639 - checked in. You know? It's just Yeah. Just 1556 00:50:30.639 --> 00:50:32.974 - different backgrounds. And so the importance of just 1557 00:50:32.974 --> 00:50:34.735 - setting, like, how is it we get work 1558 00:50:34.735 --> 00:50:36.755 - done here? Right? What are the rules? 1559 00:50:37.375 --> 00:50:38.894 - What do I expect? When I send you 1560 00:50:38.894 --> 00:50:41.055 - a text as a bishop, that doesn't mean 1561 00:50:41.055 --> 00:50:42.414 - you need to step out of a meeting 1562 00:50:42.414 --> 00:50:44.335 - at work and answer it. I'm just sending 1563 00:50:44.335 --> 00:50:46.015 - you a text message. Like, get back to 1564 00:50:46.015 --> 00:50:47.909 - me later or put me on silent and, 1565 00:50:47.989 --> 00:50:48.730 - you know, whatever. 1566 00:50:49.109 --> 00:50:51.589 - But I think that is important just conversation 1567 00:50:51.589 --> 00:50:53.030 - to have is how are we doing this 1568 00:50:53.030 --> 00:50:54.949 - word council thing or this bishop thing or 1569 00:50:54.949 --> 00:50:56.949 - whatever? The the we collected all these house 1570 00:50:56.949 --> 00:50:58.469 - rules from teams, and there were things like 1571 00:50:58.469 --> 00:51:01.190 - we have digital siestas where where, you know, 1572 00:51:01.190 --> 00:51:03.974 - from 01:00 to 03:00 after lunch, we don't 1573 00:51:03.974 --> 00:51:06.134 - do any digital communication. We just get stuff 1574 00:51:06.134 --> 00:51:08.134 - done. We had, you know, there was a 1575 00:51:08.134 --> 00:51:09.574 - company that had this thing called the flare 1576 00:51:09.574 --> 00:51:11.174 - rule. If you work on a problem for 1577 00:51:11.174 --> 00:51:12.694 - an hour and you can't solve it, and 1578 00:51:12.694 --> 00:51:14.454 - especially if you're new, throw up a flare. 1579 00:51:14.454 --> 00:51:15.835 - Here's how you throw up a flare. 1580 00:51:16.210 --> 00:51:17.890 - You know, there was one group that had 1581 00:51:17.890 --> 00:51:19.650 - this, the really out of office rule. And 1582 00:51:19.650 --> 00:51:21.250 - it was like, when you're out, you're really 1583 00:51:21.250 --> 00:51:22.849 - out. So what we do is before you 1584 00:51:22.849 --> 00:51:24.070 - go out on PTO, 1585 00:51:24.449 --> 00:51:26.369 - you know, they would plan for how they 1586 00:51:26.369 --> 00:51:28.610 - could support that person so they really didn't 1587 00:51:28.610 --> 00:51:30.210 - have to be poolside unless that's your jam 1588 00:51:30.210 --> 00:51:31.489 - and you just want to be connected all 1589 00:51:31.489 --> 00:51:33.864 - the time. But the point was, by clarifying 1590 00:51:34.005 --> 00:51:35.445 - these and coming up with these little house 1591 00:51:35.445 --> 00:51:37.605 - rules, just a few for each team, they 1592 00:51:37.605 --> 00:51:40.244 - clarified how they communicated, who what was expected 1593 00:51:40.244 --> 00:51:41.385 - from a meeting perspective, 1594 00:51:41.684 --> 00:51:43.284 - when could they get deep, when could they 1595 00:51:43.284 --> 00:51:45.960 - disconnect. And it just it makes it to 1596 00:51:45.960 --> 00:51:46.460 - where 1597 00:51:46.840 --> 00:51:49.239 - this thing that will never happen without the 1598 00:51:49.239 --> 00:51:51.880 - expectation all of a sudden happens. Mhmm. Yeah. 1599 00:51:51.880 --> 00:51:54.619 - That's powerful. Yeah. Any other point, principle, concept 1600 00:51:55.079 --> 00:51:56.760 - there? Do we do we do well? I 1601 00:51:56.760 --> 00:51:58.199 - don't know if this has been the truth 1602 00:51:58.199 --> 00:51:59.480 - for you, but first of all, it's hard 1603 00:51:59.480 --> 00:52:01.175 - to be a leader. But it's like this 1604 00:52:01.175 --> 00:52:03.335 - noble thing, because think about how leaders affect 1605 00:52:03.335 --> 00:52:05.655 - our lives. You know? If I ask you, 1606 00:52:05.655 --> 00:52:06.855 - have you ever had a leader that's really 1607 00:52:06.855 --> 00:52:08.454 - distracting or has has been tough to work 1608 00:52:08.454 --> 00:52:09.535 - for, it's pretty easy for you to find 1609 00:52:09.535 --> 00:52:11.655 - out. Yes. And likewise, when you find a 1610 00:52:11.655 --> 00:52:12.875 - leader in your life who 1611 00:52:13.500 --> 00:52:15.739 - makes a difference, who creates space for you 1612 00:52:15.739 --> 00:52:17.340 - to be clear and to focus on work 1613 00:52:17.340 --> 00:52:19.260 - that matters, or they're really good at using 1614 00:52:19.260 --> 00:52:19.920 - your talents, 1615 00:52:20.300 --> 00:52:22.460 - or a third bishop that counseled with you 1616 00:52:22.460 --> 00:52:25.420 - before they called you, we remember this for 1617 00:52:25.420 --> 00:52:27.340 - our whole lives a lot of times. Great 1618 00:52:27.340 --> 00:52:27.840 - leaders 1619 00:52:28.394 --> 00:52:30.795 - influence people in incredible ways. And so I 1620 00:52:30.795 --> 00:52:32.474 - I love that you do this podcast. I 1621 00:52:32.474 --> 00:52:35.275 - mean, this is it's really an incredible gift 1622 00:52:35.275 --> 00:52:37.375 - to talk through how, as leaders, 1623 00:52:37.675 --> 00:52:39.275 - do we lead in a way that's really 1624 00:52:39.275 --> 00:52:41.195 - like the savior and brings the very best 1625 00:52:41.195 --> 00:52:42.875 - out of people, helps them grow their talents, 1626 00:52:42.875 --> 00:52:45.230 - helps them engage. I would say that that 1627 00:52:45.230 --> 00:52:45.889 - it requires 1628 00:52:46.829 --> 00:52:47.329 - really, 1629 00:52:47.710 --> 00:52:50.190 - you know, thinking through, like, what is the 1630 00:52:50.190 --> 00:52:52.109 - mindset and the skills that I need to 1631 00:52:52.109 --> 00:52:54.589 - get the very best work from people? And 1632 00:52:54.589 --> 00:52:56.829 - I think tuning in to a podcast like 1633 00:52:56.829 --> 00:52:59.484 - this, becoming a student of leadership, is kind 1634 00:52:59.484 --> 00:53:01.005 - of necessary for us to be able to 1635 00:53:01.005 --> 00:53:03.005 - do that well and and take advantage of, 1636 00:53:03.005 --> 00:53:04.484 - you know, church trainings and these other types 1637 00:53:04.484 --> 00:53:05.964 - of things. But first I would say that 1638 00:53:05.964 --> 00:53:07.105 - leadership is hard. 1639 00:53:07.405 --> 00:53:09.505 - And great leadership is born of awareness. 1640 00:53:09.964 --> 00:53:11.505 - It's born of how 1641 00:53:11.940 --> 00:53:14.260 - your behavior affects other people to do the 1642 00:53:14.260 --> 00:53:15.960 - job you're asking them to do. 1643 00:53:16.339 --> 00:53:17.480 - And if you can 1644 00:53:17.859 --> 00:53:20.900 - learn how to become aware of how your 1645 00:53:20.900 --> 00:53:24.039 - actions affect someone's ability to do something 1646 00:53:24.500 --> 00:53:25.000 - useful, 1647 00:53:25.585 --> 00:53:27.184 - then you're gonna be a great leader. And 1648 00:53:27.184 --> 00:53:29.125 - so I think it starts with getting language. 1649 00:53:29.425 --> 00:53:30.704 - You know, that's what I love about Liz's 1650 00:53:30.704 --> 00:53:32.304 - work, getting language. That's what we try to 1651 00:53:32.304 --> 00:53:33.744 - tease out in this book is to give 1652 00:53:33.744 --> 00:53:35.744 - people language to be able to name behaviors, 1653 00:53:35.744 --> 00:53:36.485 - name distractions, 1654 00:53:37.105 --> 00:53:39.025 - name the good things that you want. If 1655 00:53:39.025 --> 00:53:41.170 - you can get those, you know, kind of 1656 00:53:41.170 --> 00:53:43.650 - a lexicon to name good leadership behaviors and 1657 00:53:43.650 --> 00:53:45.650 - bad leadership behaviors or at least distracting or 1658 00:53:45.650 --> 00:53:46.630 - diminishing behaviors, 1659 00:53:47.250 --> 00:53:49.090 - I think that you everybody can become a 1660 00:53:49.090 --> 00:53:51.650 - great leader, but it's a deliberate conscious decision 1661 00:53:51.650 --> 00:53:52.469 - to do that. 1662 00:53:56.695 --> 00:53:58.215 - Now that we've reached the end of the 1663 00:53:58.215 --> 00:54:00.954 - episode, I quickly wanna thank you for supporting 1664 00:54:01.014 --> 00:54:02.315 - the Leading Saints podcast. 1665 00:54:02.614 --> 00:54:04.775 - There's so much content out there to consider 1666 00:54:04.775 --> 00:54:07.255 - and you picked this one. If Leading Saints 1667 00:54:07.255 --> 00:54:09.255 - has made an impact in your life, we 1668 00:54:09.255 --> 00:54:11.339 - would sure like to hear about it at 1669 00:54:11.339 --> 00:54:13.280 - leadingsaints.org/contact. 1670 00:54:13.659 --> 00:54:15.980 - And if you could quickly text or email 1671 00:54:15.980 --> 00:54:18.380 - this episode to a leader, you know, I 1672 00:54:18.380 --> 00:54:20.059 - bet it will bless their life. You can 1673 00:54:20.059 --> 00:54:22.059 - mark off your good turn daily and let's 1674 00:54:22.059 --> 00:54:23.119 - even call it ministering. 1675 00:54:23.420 --> 00:54:25.875 - Okay. Maybe not that far, but seriously, thank 1676 00:54:25.875 --> 00:54:27.815 - you and help us share this content. 1677 00:54:37.329 --> 00:54:39.809 - It came as a result of the position 1678 00:54:39.809 --> 00:54:42.869 - of leadership which was imposed upon us 1679 00:54:43.250 --> 00:54:46.069 - by the God of heaven who brought forth 1680 00:54:46.210 --> 00:54:49.589 - a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. 1681 00:54:50.414 --> 00:54:51.315 - When the declaration 1682 00:54:51.695 --> 00:54:54.035 - was made concerning the only 1683 00:54:54.655 --> 00:54:57.054 - true and living Church upon the face of 1684 00:54:57.054 --> 00:54:57.795 - the earth, 1685 00:54:58.335 --> 00:55:01.074 - we were immediately put in a position of 1686 00:55:01.215 --> 00:55:01.715 - loneliness, 1687 00:55:02.015 --> 00:55:03.554 - the loneliness of leadership 1688 00:55:04.299 --> 00:55:07.199 - from which we cannot shrink nor run away, 1689 00:55:07.980 --> 00:55:10.460 - and to which we must face up with 1690 00:55:10.460 --> 00:55:11.920 - boldness and courage 1691 00:55:12.460 --> 00:55:13.279 - and ability.