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Hey. If you think Leading Saints is just

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a podcast, well, that's a big mistake. We

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are so much more than a podcast. We've

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established online a Leading Saints community.

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That's right. If you go to leadingsaints.org/zion,

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you'll be pushed towards a community online where

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the discussion is really happening. Sure. You're gonna

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listen to this episode. You'll get some great

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tips and ideas and hear a thought provoking

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discussion, but the conversation doesn't end there. We,

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go over to the Leading Saints community and

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talk further there. You can make comments. You

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can ask questions, and we'll probably do some

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follow-up live streams with maybe the same guest.

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But a lot is going on at the

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Leading Saints community. So check out the show

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notes for the link, leadingsaints.org/zion,

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and join the Leading Saints community.

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I would be rude if I didn't take

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the time to explain to the newer listeners

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what Leading Saints is. Here it goes. Leading

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Saints is an organization that started as a

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hobby blog in 2010

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and then really caught some traction in 2014

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when the podcast started. We talk about all

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things leadership in the context of the Church

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of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. We

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aren't owned by the church, but we have

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a great relationship with them and always aim

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to be faith promoting

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even though we talk about the tough topics.

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My name is Kurt Frankem. I'm generally the

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voice you hear as the host of the

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podcast. I've tried to get other hosts, but

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people demand my smooth tone and I really

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enjoy it. Check out leadingsaints.org

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to really get into the weeds of what

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Leading Saints is and learn all about our

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mission to help Latter day Saints be better

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prepared to lead.

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Everyone, I'm excited to introduce you to Robin

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Rich who recently wrote a book called Using

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Friction to Grow. Now Robin is a fantastic

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thought leader, had been a leader in the

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tech segment

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in Silicon Valley, and just has really an

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awesome career, which later led her to be

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the president

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of Deseret News. Right? And she recently, worked

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on this book focusing

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on the case studies of women Latter day

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Saint women in the nineteen seventies. Many of

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these women are in their seventies and eighties

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now, and she were looking for those individuals

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who were change makers, who were Zion builders

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in that time, and how they did that

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while also experiencing friction, whether that was friction

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from society,

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from their families, from their local wards, from

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the church, and how that sanctified them and

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developed them into phenomenal

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disciples. This is the type of content that

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here at Leading Saints we live for because

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we are a community

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of Zion builders, not just leaders or people

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with callings, though we focus on that too,

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but Zion builders. And this is a remarkable

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resource, and Robin is a remarkable person to

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speak to this concept

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of how how do we use a life

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of friction that feels like we should stop

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and that we should slow down and maybe

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reconsider where we're going, but actually

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find true

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sanctification

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in that journey. So you'll definitely

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appreciate

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this conversation as we explore

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how women in our recent history have done

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that. So here's my interview with Robin Rich.

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Robin, when was the moment that you knew

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you needed to write the book of using

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friction to grow?

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So really great question.

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So I was out to lunch with Christine

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Durham.

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She was the first chief justice

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woman chief justice of the Supreme Court of

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Utah, and she was also the first woman

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to be on the Supreme Court.

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And we were at lunch. I'm friends with

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her, and we were at lunch, and she

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was talking about

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how during the nineteen seventies,

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how there was a real pushback around women

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in the church and a lot of the

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things that she was doing. She got a

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lot of pushback

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around, and it was quite disturbing some of

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the things that she was telling me. And,

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of course, I didn't know anything about that

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because I grew up in Seattle, so I

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I wasn't here in the Utah culture.

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And,

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also, I was too young. Like and, also,

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it was too recent history, so no one

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ever talked about it to me. So as

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she was talking, I was getting more and

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more like, I don't understand.

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And she said I asked her, hey. So

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I don't understand. Why did you stay? Like,

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why did you stay active in a faith

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community

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that was actively

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against what you believed in what you were

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doing? So and during this time, she was

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doing, like, going to law school and doing

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that thing. She had graduated. She went to

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Duke Law School,

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and she was

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a advocate

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for women's rights. So just a history thing

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that I didn't know. So back in the

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early so she was, you know, marched on

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her college campus

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for civil rights in the late sixties

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and was a big proponent of civil rights.

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Like a lot of people during that time,

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right out of the civil rights movement at

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the end of the nineteen sixties

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became the feminine movement. So women really trying

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to have So until the mid seventies, they

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couldn't have a checking account.

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They couldn't have a credit card. You couldn't

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go to, like, college and just pick any

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major. There were certain majors in particular colleges

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that you could go to. You couldn't get

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financial aid.

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You could be fired for being a woman,

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getting married, having kids. There was all these

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things going on in the early seventies. So

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there was this huge movement to try and

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rectify some of those things. Christine

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Durham was a proponent of moving

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women forward in the with those rights. And

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so she was very outspoken on that. She

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wrote pamphlets on that, and she was an

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attorney. So and she, throughout her career, has

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always worked with marginalized groups.

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And that was at the same time when

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the equal rights amendment was happening. So for

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a really convoluted history

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Yeah. Which none of us know because we

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were too young. But at the end of

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the day, there was a equal rights amendment.

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They needed to have

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38

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of the states ratify it, and 35 had

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ratified. So it was almost being ratified.

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And it was up for ratification in the

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state of Utah.

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So Christine was somebody that was a feminist,

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so she was moving that forward. And at

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the time, I guess, feminism was a bad

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word. Really, it just, at the time, meant

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you thought men and women should have equal

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rights. So she was moving that forward. There

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was a lot a huge effort within the

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church. At one point, it started to not

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to be against that, to be against those

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movements for women. Yeah. Wasn't it like an

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official stance the church came out against ER?

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They did. They came out about a month

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before

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it was voted on in Utah. About a

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month before. But they were silent up in

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mostly up until that point. So a lot

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of tension there. There was a lot of

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tension. A member and Being a member was

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a lot of tension, especially if you were

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in one of the states where it was

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up for ratification.

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So, like, I grew up in Seattle. It

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wasn't up for ratification. They rat fight it

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right away in the state of Washington. Plus,

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I was, like, in diapers. So, again, not

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something I was aware. Boatie. No. It was

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not aware of. And so there was a

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lot of tension

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if you were somebody that thought were thought

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that that was a vehicle to get women's

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rights. We've actually, since then, gotten a lot

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of those rights

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corrected, right, through different codes. And, actually, I

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didn't put it in the book, but Christine

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told me that one of the things she

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did

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after that was not ratified and and during

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that time is they went through the state

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code here in the state of Utah

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and tried to rectify every single one of

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those issues.

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So they did it without having a an

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amendment. They did it by pushing it through

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here in the state and rectifying some of

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those state statues and codes, which is another

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way to do that so that women, you

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know, wouldn't be fired if they were pregnant

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Mhmm. Or things like that. Anyway,

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so long story. So then she was telling

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me a lot about the friction that happened

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where,

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you know, women were judging women, men were

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judging women for working. Like, all this stuff

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was going on. And that's why I asked,

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like, why'd you stay in? Like, that seems

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like be really tough. Every reason to Yeah.

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I was like, that's his really tough. Yeah.

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And she said something that was so interesting,

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and it I can't even explain it other

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than I felt like a light bulb hit

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me of, like, these stories need to be

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told. So what she said is,

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oh, we knew about our grandmothers.

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And so we knew that they were doing

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all these things and were suffragettes,

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and they were moving forward and doing all

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these things. And so we just thought, well,

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we know about our grandmothers, so we're gonna

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do this. And what struck me is we

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don't have the stories from that grandmother's generation.

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So the people the women that are, like,

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80 right now, we don't have their stories.

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They're not in our church canon. They're not

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telling them really. Mhmm.

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And the strength that they had

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knowing their grandmother's stories. And the thing I

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think sometimes we forget is, like, nothing's new.

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We think it's new that people have a

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hard time staying in the church because there's

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friction. That's not new. Like, that's that's not

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a new thing. And so to know about

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the grandmother generation

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and what they faced, I think, is super

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important. So I went on this journey of

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interviewing a lot of women that during that

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time, between 1968

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and 1974,

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seventy six ish, were making their career decisions,

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and they chose to have careers. And they

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chose to stay faithful in the church. And

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I just wanted to understand, like, their stories.

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Like,

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what drove them to stay? Why would you

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stay in a faith community that maybe was

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kind of against what the the life path

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you chose? Yeah. And this, you know, centers

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on that friction concept of there's obvious friction

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there, but it was actually there's a purpose

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to it Yes. In growing and and so

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forth. I mean, from the beginning, how how

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do you respond to people saying, no. No.

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No. Like, they just need to get with

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the program, follow what the church says, follow

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what the brethren say, and that will bless

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their lives the best they can. Because in

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hindsight, we I think a lot of older

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generation worries that, like, no. If we

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highlight those who went who went against general

270
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counsel, what will they do today? Right? What

271
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how do you process that? Yeah. I've actually

272
00:09:38,769 --> 00:09:40,129
run into that a little bit since the

273
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book came out last week.

274
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I think that the bigger thing is is

275
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I'll just say this about the women I

276
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interviewed.

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00:09:47,009 --> 00:09:47,509
Universally,

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they were alive during the civil rights movement,

279
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and they a lot of them participated in

280
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the civil rights movement. And then they would

281
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go to church, and they'd be like, woof.

282
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We don't really have blacks in the priesthood

283
00:09:58,904 --> 00:10:00,504
in our church. We're not this doesn't match

284
00:10:00,504 --> 00:10:03,565
up. Without exception, all of them

285
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prayed about that, labored with that, tried to

286
00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,399
understand that, talked to leaders, really tried to

287
00:10:09,399 --> 00:10:10,779
figure out what that looked like,

288
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and kind of got their own revelation of,

289
00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:14,279
like, yeah. You might be you might be

290
00:10:14,279 --> 00:10:16,360
right, but, you know, stay in. And so

291
00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:18,615
I feel like they had a muscle that

292
00:10:18,615 --> 00:10:21,115
they got by going through that struggle.

293
00:10:21,495 --> 00:10:25,014
And then when the women working came up

294
00:10:25,014 --> 00:10:26,934
for them right in the face, they already

295
00:10:26,934 --> 00:10:29,254
kinda knew what that looked like, what that

296
00:10:29,254 --> 00:10:31,279
friction looked like. On the friction

297
00:10:31,580 --> 00:10:34,220
thing so I do believe the church is

298
00:10:34,220 --> 00:10:36,779
an absolute vehicle that helps us understand God

299
00:10:36,779 --> 00:10:38,779
and helps us become closer to God through

300
00:10:38,779 --> 00:10:42,000
many, many ways. But it's, again, a vehicle

301
00:10:42,220 --> 00:10:44,080
we have to have a relationship

302
00:10:44,539 --> 00:10:47,084
with God and with our savior. And I

303
00:10:47,084 --> 00:10:48,764
think these women all looked at the role

304
00:10:48,764 --> 00:10:51,084
of a prophet was the prophet has called

305
00:10:51,084 --> 00:10:53,804
us to repentance, which just means change. And

306
00:10:53,804 --> 00:10:55,245
so I think they looked at the prophet

307
00:10:55,245 --> 00:10:56,845
as somebody that did that for them in

308
00:10:56,845 --> 00:10:59,404
their lives. So when they'd hear what he

309
00:10:59,404 --> 00:10:59,904
said,

310
00:11:00,590 --> 00:11:01,490
they would

311
00:11:02,029 --> 00:11:04,429
then go and use that same muscle and

312
00:11:04,429 --> 00:11:06,830
pray about it, work with their husbands praying

313
00:11:06,830 --> 00:11:10,029
about it, fast, do whatever that process was

314
00:11:10,029 --> 00:11:11,250
for them to get comfortable

315
00:11:11,629 --> 00:11:14,514
with their answer. I think the other thing

316
00:11:14,514 --> 00:11:17,955
that's unique is they were so empathetic and

317
00:11:17,955 --> 00:11:20,914
gracious about everyone else's answer. Meaning, they knew

318
00:11:20,914 --> 00:11:23,174
that that was the answer for them specifically.

319
00:11:23,714 --> 00:11:25,714
And to feel comfortable with their relationship and

320
00:11:25,714 --> 00:11:28,139
God, there was their answer, They didn't necessarily

321
00:11:28,139 --> 00:11:29,580
feel like I need to go out and

322
00:11:29,580 --> 00:11:31,500
judge everybody else for their answer, but they

323
00:11:31,500 --> 00:11:32,399
really gave grace

324
00:11:32,700 --> 00:11:34,940
for everybody else. Like, everyone's gonna have a

325
00:11:34,940 --> 00:11:36,559
different answer. We're very unique.

326
00:11:37,019 --> 00:11:39,600
And I do think the role of friction

327
00:11:39,659 --> 00:11:40,480
in the gospel,

328
00:11:40,804 --> 00:11:42,565
I mean, we believe in opposition in all

329
00:11:42,565 --> 00:11:44,804
things. Literally, if we have no friction, we

330
00:11:44,804 --> 00:11:46,804
pick Satan's plan. I mean, like, that's the

331
00:11:46,804 --> 00:11:49,384
plan. There's no friction. But I think friction,

332
00:11:49,845 --> 00:11:52,664
just from a, you know, physical law,

333
00:11:52,980 --> 00:11:55,139
friction slows you down. That's what it's meant

334
00:11:55,139 --> 00:11:56,580
to do. I mean, that's why I have

335
00:11:56,580 --> 00:11:57,940
brakes in my car so that I don't

336
00:11:57,940 --> 00:12:00,360
hit somebody. Yeah. I use my friction brakes.

337
00:12:00,740 --> 00:12:03,059
And so it does slow you down, and

338
00:12:03,059 --> 00:12:04,659
it can slow you to a stop potentially.

339
00:12:04,659 --> 00:12:06,259
And I think that's some of the challenges

340
00:12:06,259 --> 00:12:07,459
people have. It slows you all the way

341
00:12:07,459 --> 00:12:09,735
to a stop, but sometimes you can push

342
00:12:09,735 --> 00:12:12,134
through it. And when you push through friction,

343
00:12:12,134 --> 00:12:13,735
if you're a rock, it rubs off the

344
00:12:13,735 --> 00:12:15,575
rough edges. Like, it makes it smoother so

345
00:12:15,575 --> 00:12:17,575
you can go faster later. So I do

346
00:12:17,575 --> 00:12:20,134
think that it's by divine design that when

347
00:12:20,134 --> 00:12:23,179
friction shows up, it is for you to

348
00:12:23,179 --> 00:12:25,019
grow. It's for you to grow. It's for

349
00:12:25,019 --> 00:12:26,940
you to have time to go figure out

350
00:12:26,940 --> 00:12:28,779
who is god. Like, who is he in

351
00:12:28,779 --> 00:12:31,440
my life? Are my ideas of him correct?

352
00:12:31,659 --> 00:12:33,659
Or through this experience, am I learning even

353
00:12:33,659 --> 00:12:35,500
more about him? And I think without friction,

354
00:12:35,500 --> 00:12:37,054
you you don't get to learn that. Like,

355
00:12:37,054 --> 00:12:39,454
you're just you're not getting that. Yeah. So

356
00:12:39,454 --> 00:12:40,894
I I like how you're framing this in

357
00:12:40,894 --> 00:12:43,214
a a faith promoting context of, you know,

358
00:12:43,214 --> 00:12:45,134
we may hear things during during general conference

359
00:12:45,134 --> 00:12:46,654
or from the general church or even from

360
00:12:46,654 --> 00:12:49,454
the local church and local church leaders where

361
00:12:49,454 --> 00:12:52,090
we think, that doesn't sit right. Now that

362
00:12:52,090 --> 00:12:55,629
doesn't mean you're wrong, they're wrong, you're unworthy,

363
00:12:55,690 --> 00:12:57,529
they're worthy. You know? It's more of like,

364
00:12:57,529 --> 00:12:58,730
great. Now what are you going to do

365
00:12:58,730 --> 00:13:00,269
with it? And it's in that wrestle

366
00:13:00,649 --> 00:13:01,790
where a lot of sanctification

367
00:13:02,250 --> 00:13:04,509
can come Absolutely. Regardless of who's right.

368
00:13:05,735 --> 00:13:07,254
I mean, I don't know that there's a

369
00:13:07,254 --> 00:13:08,855
lot that we know that is right. I

370
00:13:08,855 --> 00:13:10,935
mean, that's why it's a religion and faith.

371
00:13:10,935 --> 00:13:13,095
Like, there's so much we don't know, and

372
00:13:13,095 --> 00:13:15,654
I think we keep getting continuing revelation. I

373
00:13:15,654 --> 00:13:17,975
do someone said something that was interesting to

374
00:13:17,975 --> 00:13:20,100
me, and I thought, that's right, which is

375
00:13:20,259 --> 00:13:20,759
sometimes

376
00:13:21,299 --> 00:13:22,759
you can get personal revelation

377
00:13:23,299 --> 00:13:24,759
maybe ahead of organizational

378
00:13:25,220 --> 00:13:27,220
revelation. It might be faster to just get

379
00:13:27,220 --> 00:13:28,360
your own personal revelation

380
00:13:29,379 --> 00:13:30,679
than, you know, for organization

381
00:13:31,379 --> 00:13:32,819
revelation to come. And I think we keep

382
00:13:32,819 --> 00:13:34,339
seeing that, and that's why things keep getting

383
00:13:34,339 --> 00:13:36,014
revised. Like, they just announced, hey. We're only

384
00:13:36,095 --> 00:13:38,414
we're gonna have Sunday school and Yeah. Split

385
00:13:38,414 --> 00:13:38,914
schedule.

386
00:13:39,375 --> 00:13:41,375
Yeah. So, like, maybe someone got an answer

387
00:13:41,375 --> 00:13:43,294
a long time ago. Some, you know, young

388
00:13:43,294 --> 00:13:45,054
women's president or young men's president was like,

389
00:13:45,054 --> 00:13:46,335
I'd really like to see the young men

390
00:13:46,335 --> 00:13:47,870
or the young women every week. I don't

391
00:13:47,870 --> 00:13:49,389
know that this is the best for them.

392
00:13:49,389 --> 00:13:50,830
Maybe they got the answer of, like, yeah.

393
00:13:50,830 --> 00:13:52,029
You're right. It would be better if you

394
00:13:52,029 --> 00:13:54,509
saw them. But, organizationally, it's gonna take longer

395
00:13:54,509 --> 00:13:56,589
to get that answer and then implement it.

396
00:13:56,589 --> 00:13:58,750
There's an implementation thing that takes Yeah. I

397
00:13:58,750 --> 00:14:00,134
think this is a great example. I was

398
00:14:00,134 --> 00:14:02,486
just thinking about this this morning. We're recording

399
00:14:02,486 --> 00:14:04,837
this the day after this announcement of the

400
00:14:05,131 --> 00:14:07,483
going from the alternating to the split schedule.

401
00:14:07,483 --> 00:14:09,834
And one could say, well, what? President Nelson

402
00:14:09,834 --> 00:14:12,186
got it wrong? Like, did he miss the

403
00:14:12,186 --> 00:14:14,429
revelation? Wasn't this god's will? Or no. It's

404
00:14:14,429 --> 00:14:17,710
like we are organization run by mortals, and

405
00:14:17,710 --> 00:14:19,870
we're god isn't gonna necessarily be like and

406
00:14:19,870 --> 00:14:21,950
this is the perfect way the church needs

407
00:14:21,950 --> 00:14:23,230
to be. It's like, I don't know. Try

408
00:14:23,230 --> 00:14:24,910
some things. Figure it out. Did that work?

409
00:14:24,910 --> 00:14:26,509
We've done a few years. Let's try this

410
00:14:26,509 --> 00:14:27,730
other thing. Right? And

411
00:14:28,274 --> 00:14:30,434
even hesitate when sick people are framing it

412
00:14:30,434 --> 00:14:33,315
as revelation, which, you know, revelation can mean

413
00:14:33,315 --> 00:14:35,394
several things. But I don't think there's a

414
00:14:35,394 --> 00:14:36,834
scroll in the cormor of the 12 that

415
00:14:36,834 --> 00:14:39,174
came from the ceiling saying, this is the

416
00:14:39,714 --> 00:14:40,214
celestial

417
00:14:40,595 --> 00:14:43,019
church schedule. Right? Yeah. But, again, we're we're

418
00:14:43,019 --> 00:14:45,440
trying different things, and maybe there's people thinking,

419
00:14:45,660 --> 00:14:47,899
I had this idea from the beginning. We

420
00:14:47,899 --> 00:14:49,180
should have done it this way, but it's

421
00:14:49,180 --> 00:14:50,860
just that's just not how the church works

422
00:14:50,860 --> 00:14:52,860
as an institution. I talked a little bit

423
00:14:52,860 --> 00:14:54,540
about this in my book because I did

424
00:14:54,540 --> 00:14:56,834
a whole context chapter on, like, what if

425
00:14:56,834 --> 00:14:58,115
you lived in the '19 what if you

426
00:14:58,115 --> 00:14:59,754
were 22 year old woman in the '19

427
00:14:59,954 --> 00:15:01,714
in 1970? What would that look like for

428
00:15:01,714 --> 00:15:02,834
you? Because I didn't know what it was

429
00:15:02,834 --> 00:15:05,235
gonna look like. And in that chapter, I

430
00:15:05,235 --> 00:15:07,574
kinda talked a little bit about revelation

431
00:15:08,274 --> 00:15:09,174
and implementation.

432
00:15:09,634 --> 00:15:10,695
And I I think

433
00:15:11,100 --> 00:15:13,500
because implementation is how it gets rolled out.

434
00:15:13,500 --> 00:15:15,659
Right? And when I think about the way

435
00:15:15,659 --> 00:15:17,339
I get revelation, I know everyone gets it

436
00:15:17,339 --> 00:15:17,839
differently.

437
00:15:18,139 --> 00:15:20,459
But I've never gotten an entire paragraph. I've

438
00:15:20,459 --> 00:15:23,019
never gotten an entire sentence, actually. I usually

439
00:15:23,019 --> 00:15:25,334
get, like, a little little chunk. Mhmm. And

440
00:15:25,334 --> 00:15:27,095
then where I get in trouble, if I

441
00:15:27,095 --> 00:15:28,855
get in trouble, is when I start going

442
00:15:28,855 --> 00:15:30,054
with my mind of, like, well, that must

443
00:15:30,054 --> 00:15:31,495
mean this, and then I'm gonna implement it

444
00:15:31,495 --> 00:15:33,194
this way and this way. Right? And then

445
00:15:33,495 --> 00:15:34,875
so I think sometimes

446
00:15:35,414 --> 00:15:36,074
the implementation

447
00:15:36,934 --> 00:15:39,340
is what we do as humans. But God

448
00:15:39,340 --> 00:15:41,200
might have said, hey. It's really important

449
00:15:41,899 --> 00:15:42,960
to think about

450
00:15:43,419 --> 00:15:45,179
this one thing. Like, it might have been

451
00:15:45,179 --> 00:15:47,419
really important that maybe the ERA, the actual

452
00:15:47,419 --> 00:15:49,259
legislation was a little bit flawed, and the

453
00:15:49,259 --> 00:15:51,179
better way was to all have all the

454
00:15:51,179 --> 00:15:52,320
statutes redone.

455
00:15:52,644 --> 00:15:54,245
Right? So maybe that was the revelation of,

456
00:15:54,245 --> 00:15:56,105
like, I don't know. This might have unintended

457
00:15:56,164 --> 00:15:56,664
consequences.

458
00:15:57,125 --> 00:15:59,365
But then a human imitation is, like, no.

459
00:15:59,365 --> 00:16:01,284
Actually, it means that all the question is

460
00:16:01,284 --> 00:16:03,445
work, not work. Mhmm. And that's something we

461
00:16:03,445 --> 00:16:05,204
kinda do as humans of, like, no. This

462
00:16:05,204 --> 00:16:07,524
little nugget I got from him means this

463
00:16:07,524 --> 00:16:09,420
thing over here, and we implement against that.

464
00:16:09,420 --> 00:16:11,259
And then we just keep having to to

465
00:16:11,259 --> 00:16:13,660
change those things. But so when I think

466
00:16:13,660 --> 00:16:16,480
about yes. I absolutely do believe

467
00:16:16,860 --> 00:16:18,940
they get revelation. And as my role at

468
00:16:18,940 --> 00:16:21,834
Deseret News, I saw that working. I do

469
00:16:21,834 --> 00:16:24,174
think they get absolute revolution. I think sometimes

470
00:16:24,475 --> 00:16:26,875
when we implement it, that's where, you know,

471
00:16:26,875 --> 00:16:28,815
it's like, okay. On our best knowledge,

472
00:16:29,274 --> 00:16:31,034
the bounded by I've only lived well, I

473
00:16:31,034 --> 00:16:32,475
have lived more than in The United States,

474
00:16:32,475 --> 00:16:33,834
but I've only lived if I've only lived

475
00:16:33,834 --> 00:16:35,960
in The United States, bounded by that and

476
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:36,779
my experience

477
00:16:37,399 --> 00:16:38,379
as highly educated,

478
00:16:38,759 --> 00:16:41,159
you know, middle class growing up, that's my

479
00:16:41,159 --> 00:16:43,399
implementation is gonna look different than somebody that

480
00:16:43,399 --> 00:16:45,639
grows up in Mainland China has a different

481
00:16:45,639 --> 00:16:47,559
experience. And so that's what we're playing with,

482
00:16:47,559 --> 00:16:49,475
I think. Yeah. And I'm there's often this

483
00:16:49,475 --> 00:16:51,634
concept as this dynamic comes up. I call

484
00:16:51,634 --> 00:16:54,355
it the ex girlfriend syndrome where, like, when

485
00:16:54,355 --> 00:16:55,875
we went from three hours to two hours,

486
00:16:55,875 --> 00:16:57,715
we, like, roll our eyes at the silliness

487
00:16:57,715 --> 00:16:59,794
of three hour church or before come follow

488
00:16:59,794 --> 00:17:01,235
me. It's like, can you believe we actually

489
00:17:01,235 --> 00:17:03,209
did this differently? That was so, like, as

490
00:17:03,209 --> 00:17:04,730
if there was an error or a wrong

491
00:17:04,730 --> 00:17:06,089
way of doing it when it's no. We're

492
00:17:06,089 --> 00:17:08,970
just iterating. We're just implementing and seeing what

493
00:17:08,970 --> 00:17:10,809
works and improving as we go, not because

494
00:17:10,809 --> 00:17:13,369
the thing before was flawed. Right. The reality

495
00:17:13,369 --> 00:17:14,890
is the thing right now is probably flawed,

496
00:17:14,890 --> 00:17:16,809
but we're just learning. We're trying to just

497
00:17:16,809 --> 00:17:18,055
grow. We We just need to grow. I

498
00:17:18,055 --> 00:17:19,174
mean, I think that we came here to

499
00:17:19,174 --> 00:17:22,055
grow. So Yeah. There is this concept I

500
00:17:22,055 --> 00:17:22,555
see,

501
00:17:22,934 --> 00:17:25,575
like, you know, taking it to modern day

502
00:17:25,575 --> 00:17:27,815
times of maybe more heavy issue like the

503
00:17:27,815 --> 00:17:29,335
ERA was back then. Well, now I feel

504
00:17:29,335 --> 00:17:31,195
like, like you mentioned, through different legislations,

505
00:17:31,759 --> 00:17:33,519
we've made several of those steps. Yes. Are

506
00:17:33,519 --> 00:17:35,119
we there yet? No. But, you know, it

507
00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:36,799
is what it is. So but there are

508
00:17:36,799 --> 00:17:39,279
people who are, like who feel this they

509
00:17:39,279 --> 00:17:40,880
have a hope and change rather than a

510
00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:42,799
hope in Christ, so they stay engaged in

511
00:17:42,799 --> 00:17:44,720
the church because, well, come on. We know

512
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:46,640
that the church is gonna allow same sex

513
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,694
ceilings. So just stick around. We'll be fine.

514
00:17:49,755 --> 00:17:52,795
But then it, like, stimulates this disappointment and

515
00:17:52,795 --> 00:17:53,855
even can

516
00:17:54,234 --> 00:17:56,954
set faith up for more destruction because it

517
00:17:56,954 --> 00:17:58,954
didn't happen. Well, why isn't it happening? Why?

518
00:17:58,954 --> 00:18:00,769
Why? And then because they're having faith in

519
00:18:00,769 --> 00:18:02,529
this outcome rather than faith in Christ and

520
00:18:02,529 --> 00:18:04,609
his redeeming power. Right? So do we have

521
00:18:04,609 --> 00:18:07,569
to what be careful with having, like, this

522
00:18:07,569 --> 00:18:09,490
feeling like, feeling that friction knowing that, oh,

523
00:18:09,490 --> 00:18:11,089
this will go away, so I'm just gonna

524
00:18:11,089 --> 00:18:13,005
jump into the friction. Does that make sense?

525
00:18:13,325 --> 00:18:15,164
Yeah. I mean, it's a good question. I

526
00:18:15,164 --> 00:18:17,164
think there's a couple ways to answer that.

527
00:18:17,164 --> 00:18:18,924
I think one of the things that I

528
00:18:18,924 --> 00:18:20,605
learned from all these women so in the

529
00:18:20,605 --> 00:18:22,525
book, I interviewed all these women, and then

530
00:18:22,525 --> 00:18:24,845
I just tell their story. And, like, and

531
00:18:24,845 --> 00:18:27,769
each what's what's interesting is all of them

532
00:18:27,769 --> 00:18:30,569
are so unique. Like, just which is true

533
00:18:30,569 --> 00:18:33,130
of our wards and our everywhere. Like, everybody's

534
00:18:33,130 --> 00:18:35,690
unique. Everyone had gets a new unique path

535
00:18:35,690 --> 00:18:37,609
to take on this life. And I think

536
00:18:37,609 --> 00:18:39,529
the one true thing that there's a lot

537
00:18:39,529 --> 00:18:41,130
of true things, but one true thing here

538
00:18:41,130 --> 00:18:41,630
is

539
00:18:42,095 --> 00:18:43,474
if you have a question,

540
00:18:44,335 --> 00:18:44,994
you can

541
00:18:45,375 --> 00:18:47,535
go study it out, take it to the

542
00:18:47,535 --> 00:18:50,095
lord, and you might not get an answer.

543
00:18:50,095 --> 00:18:52,734
Like, I've had I've had ones where I,

544
00:18:52,734 --> 00:18:54,734
for a dick, I'll never forget. I prayed

545
00:18:54,734 --> 00:18:56,650
about something for, I don't know, like, six

546
00:18:56,650 --> 00:18:58,410
months. I was, like, really concerned about it

547
00:18:58,410 --> 00:19:00,890
long time ago. A decade later, I will

548
00:19:00,890 --> 00:19:03,070
never forget. I was sitting somewhere and someone

549
00:19:03,130 --> 00:19:04,029
said the answer.

550
00:19:04,330 --> 00:19:06,410
And I felt like God was like, hello?

551
00:19:06,410 --> 00:19:08,009
That's the answer you prayed for, like, ten

552
00:19:08,009 --> 00:19:09,355
years ago. And I'm like, that was ten

553
00:19:09,355 --> 00:19:11,194
years ago. I've moved on. You've been doing?

554
00:19:11,194 --> 00:19:13,454
Yes. I've moved on. So I just think

555
00:19:13,595 --> 00:19:17,194
that the answer really is friction is sent

556
00:19:17,835 --> 00:19:19,515
the thing that I I talk a little

557
00:19:19,515 --> 00:19:21,380
bit on the book about this is I

558
00:19:21,380 --> 00:19:23,720
don't think we're ever gonna have a bow

559
00:19:23,940 --> 00:19:25,940
on this present that is the church. Mhmm.

560
00:19:25,940 --> 00:19:27,539
We're just not. We did it. We're done.

561
00:19:27,539 --> 00:19:29,860
No. There's no bow. Yeah. Because I think

562
00:19:29,860 --> 00:19:32,740
by design, it's set up to have boundaries

563
00:19:32,740 --> 00:19:35,115
in it, to have ideology, all organizations do.

564
00:19:35,194 --> 00:19:36,875
And you're gonna bump up against those. And

565
00:19:36,875 --> 00:19:38,815
that is the beauty of the church

566
00:19:39,355 --> 00:19:42,154
because it gives you friction points, and friction

567
00:19:42,154 --> 00:19:42,654
points

568
00:19:43,035 --> 00:19:45,375
can allow you to have growth. And so

569
00:19:45,515 --> 00:19:47,515
I think you can use that principle to

570
00:19:47,515 --> 00:19:49,855
always say, this is giving me friction.

571
00:19:50,210 --> 00:19:52,130
How do I wanna deal with this? Does

572
00:19:52,130 --> 00:19:54,049
this help me understand who god is more

573
00:19:54,049 --> 00:19:56,369
and my savior is more? So I don't

574
00:19:56,369 --> 00:19:58,690
pretend to know all the thorny issues are

575
00:19:58,690 --> 00:20:01,170
out there for sure. But I do think

576
00:20:01,170 --> 00:20:03,569
these women had huge thorny issues that were

577
00:20:03,569 --> 00:20:05,490
social, and we have thorny issues today that

578
00:20:05,490 --> 00:20:07,224
are social. And I think in fifty years,

579
00:20:07,224 --> 00:20:08,984
it'll be the same. Like, that's not going

580
00:20:08,984 --> 00:20:10,585
away. So I think that's not going away.

581
00:20:10,585 --> 00:20:12,825
So then the question is, what is the

582
00:20:12,825 --> 00:20:15,544
benefit of having a religion in your life?

583
00:20:15,544 --> 00:20:16,904
And I think that's what we should really

584
00:20:16,904 --> 00:20:18,984
be talking about, which is it does. It's

585
00:20:18,984 --> 00:20:21,190
a vehicle. Like, I have ordinances I can

586
00:20:21,190 --> 00:20:22,630
do that remind me and touch kind of

587
00:20:22,630 --> 00:20:24,970
eternity. I have ability to serve

588
00:20:25,350 --> 00:20:27,350
in ways that I would never I get

589
00:20:27,350 --> 00:20:29,430
to be around people I would never know

590
00:20:29,430 --> 00:20:30,650
if I wasn't there.

591
00:20:30,950 --> 00:20:32,250
I get to participate

592
00:20:33,105 --> 00:20:35,585
in a way with Christ in the way

593
00:20:35,585 --> 00:20:37,585
he set up to have these rituals. So

594
00:20:37,585 --> 00:20:38,724
there's real benefits

595
00:20:39,265 --> 00:20:41,825
that if you focus on just this thing

596
00:20:41,825 --> 00:20:44,065
that's the thorny issue instead of looking at

597
00:20:44,065 --> 00:20:46,545
the whole beautiful picture, I think that's when

598
00:20:46,545 --> 00:20:48,565
you get a it gets worse for you.

599
00:20:48,660 --> 00:20:50,580
And I did say friction can slow you

600
00:20:50,580 --> 00:20:51,859
all the way down. It's what you choose

601
00:20:51,859 --> 00:20:53,799
to do with it in that slowdown point.

602
00:20:54,019 --> 00:20:55,940
Yeah. My mind goes to the, you know,

603
00:20:55,940 --> 00:20:58,759
story of of Jacob wrestling God. Yeah. And

604
00:20:59,140 --> 00:21:01,779
God breaks his his hip, and Jacob says,

605
00:21:01,779 --> 00:21:03,380
I will not let go until you give

606
00:21:03,380 --> 00:21:04,875
me a new name. Like, he could have

607
00:21:04,875 --> 00:21:07,115
just succumb to the wrestle and, alright. You

608
00:21:07,115 --> 00:21:08,875
pinned me. Yeah. He's I surrender, but it's

609
00:21:08,875 --> 00:21:11,035
more like, I will stay engaged with God

610
00:21:11,115 --> 00:21:13,355
Yeah. Until you give me something more. Right?

611
00:21:13,355 --> 00:21:15,755
And I think as as we get older

612
00:21:15,755 --> 00:21:17,195
at with hindsight in our life, we can

613
00:21:17,195 --> 00:21:18,990
see time after time where it's like, oh,

614
00:21:18,990 --> 00:21:21,390
I just stayed engaged. It wasn't that there's

615
00:21:21,390 --> 00:21:24,670
anything particular about that scenario that revealed anything.

616
00:21:24,670 --> 00:21:26,670
But now looking back on it, like, I'm

617
00:21:26,670 --> 00:21:28,269
a better person. I'm a different person. I

618
00:21:28,269 --> 00:21:30,690
have a new identity. Right? It's really powerful.

619
00:21:30,750 --> 00:21:32,349
So give us another tease us with another

620
00:21:32,349 --> 00:21:34,755
story or woman in the in your book.

621
00:21:34,755 --> 00:21:37,014
I just wanna sprinkle these throughout our interview.

622
00:21:37,154 --> 00:21:39,974
So there's this one woman that she had

623
00:21:40,434 --> 00:21:42,274
so the other one one thing I will

624
00:21:42,274 --> 00:21:44,115
say is for the most part, all the

625
00:21:44,115 --> 00:21:46,514
women had never told their stories to their

626
00:21:46,514 --> 00:21:47,014
family,

627
00:21:47,500 --> 00:21:49,819
which is super interesting, and I don't think

628
00:21:49,819 --> 00:21:51,500
we do that. I don't think we sit

629
00:21:51,500 --> 00:21:54,380
down and get these nuggets and, like, what?

630
00:21:54,380 --> 00:21:55,980
You had the ERA was a thing for

631
00:21:55,980 --> 00:21:58,079
you. Like, we don't get these nuggets. So

632
00:21:58,140 --> 00:21:59,659
that being said, I sat down with this

633
00:21:59,659 --> 00:22:01,274
one woman, and she was telling me the

634
00:22:01,274 --> 00:22:02,875
story. She's like, oh, I've never told anybody

635
00:22:02,875 --> 00:22:04,494
in my family the story, just my husband.

636
00:22:04,554 --> 00:22:06,954
And she told me the story about a

637
00:22:06,954 --> 00:22:09,375
really awful experience with the bishop

638
00:22:09,754 --> 00:22:12,234
that he This has never happened before. No.

639
00:22:12,234 --> 00:22:12,974
So we're listening.

640
00:22:13,559 --> 00:22:15,640
The thing is okay. Let's be clear. Yes.

641
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,120
People, they all had great experiences with priesthood

642
00:22:18,120 --> 00:22:20,860
leaders and terrible experiences with personal leaders. So

643
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:22,920
that's the thing. Like, I don't know why

644
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:24,440
we think it's gonna be different. But, anyway,

645
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,404
this particular one called her in, told her

646
00:22:26,404 --> 00:22:28,444
that he decided he was gonna excommunicate her.

647
00:22:28,444 --> 00:22:31,565
Oh, wow. So this went sour. Yeah. Really

648
00:22:31,565 --> 00:22:34,204
sour, really fast because he was convinced that

649
00:22:34,204 --> 00:22:36,525
she was an apostate and do you know,

650
00:22:36,525 --> 00:22:38,529
beating her children, all this crazy stuff. That

651
00:22:38,529 --> 00:22:40,210
this woman was like, what are you talking

652
00:22:40,210 --> 00:22:42,049
about? This isn't even true of me. Like

653
00:22:42,130 --> 00:22:43,650
because she had a job. So Oh, I

654
00:22:43,650 --> 00:22:46,130
see. So she had a job. And So

655
00:22:46,130 --> 00:22:47,730
he he interpreted that as some type of

656
00:22:47,730 --> 00:22:50,470
neglect or abuse. Yeah. I don't know. So

657
00:22:50,609 --> 00:22:51,109
she

658
00:22:51,490 --> 00:22:53,894
said he was and the way she explained

659
00:22:53,894 --> 00:22:55,194
it, it was he was very

660
00:22:55,894 --> 00:22:58,375
angry and, like, really yelling at her and

661
00:22:58,375 --> 00:23:00,294
all this stuff. And she said she felt

662
00:23:00,294 --> 00:23:02,054
the spirit just push her forward in her

663
00:23:02,054 --> 00:23:03,414
chair. And she's like, you know, I'm a

664
00:23:03,414 --> 00:23:05,974
really timid Mormon girl. And she's like, I

665
00:23:05,974 --> 00:23:07,654
felt the spirit push me forward in the

666
00:23:07,654 --> 00:23:09,549
chair. And I said, she said, I, I

667
00:23:09,549 --> 00:23:10,930
just, it came out of my mouth.

668
00:23:11,230 --> 00:23:14,269
I, I don't understand church policy or church

669
00:23:14,269 --> 00:23:16,029
courts or whatever, but I know that if

670
00:23:16,029 --> 00:23:17,789
you want to excommunicate somebody, you have to

671
00:23:17,789 --> 00:23:19,789
have some evidence and there's no evidence of

672
00:23:19,789 --> 00:23:20,289
this.

673
00:23:21,194 --> 00:23:23,034
And so she said she got up and

674
00:23:23,034 --> 00:23:25,294
walked out, which is counter to her personality.

675
00:23:25,755 --> 00:23:28,075
Especially forty, fifty years ago. Yeah. So and

676
00:23:28,075 --> 00:23:29,674
so she what was it why I'm telling

677
00:23:29,674 --> 00:23:31,274
the story is not because of that, because

678
00:23:31,274 --> 00:23:32,414
that's obviously horrendous.

679
00:23:32,714 --> 00:23:34,650
But what was super interesting to me is

680
00:23:34,650 --> 00:23:36,250
she said she drove around for the next

681
00:23:36,329 --> 00:23:38,329
this is on a Sunday afternoon. She wanna

682
00:23:38,329 --> 00:23:39,950
go home. She drove around for a couple

683
00:23:40,089 --> 00:23:42,329
hours, and she heard a voice fine she

684
00:23:42,329 --> 00:23:44,409
was, like, ranting and screaming in the car,

685
00:23:44,409 --> 00:23:46,169
and how could he, and what is this?

686
00:23:46,169 --> 00:23:48,234
And I have my calling. I like, I'm

687
00:23:48,234 --> 00:23:49,755
in. I read my scriptures. I'm doing all

688
00:23:49,755 --> 00:23:50,335
this stuff.

689
00:23:50,795 --> 00:23:52,154
And she heard a voice that said, whose

690
00:23:52,154 --> 00:23:53,055
church is this?

691
00:23:53,755 --> 00:23:57,195
Whose is it? And she immediately felt this,

692
00:23:57,195 --> 00:24:00,174
like, overwhelming love and just the savior

693
00:24:00,859 --> 00:24:03,740
and knowing it was his. It wasn't that

694
00:24:03,740 --> 00:24:07,019
Bishop's and that he knew of her, the

695
00:24:07,019 --> 00:24:09,500
savior knew of her, and that he was

696
00:24:09,820 --> 00:24:11,340
she had followed the path that he had

697
00:24:11,340 --> 00:24:12,700
laid out for her and that she was

698
00:24:12,700 --> 00:24:13,600
okay. Mhmm.

699
00:24:13,994 --> 00:24:16,075
And she went back and told her husband

700
00:24:16,075 --> 00:24:18,095
and then has never told anybody since.

701
00:24:18,474 --> 00:24:20,555
But I think there's lots of women and

702
00:24:20,555 --> 00:24:23,194
men and youth and whatever that have, you

703
00:24:23,194 --> 00:24:24,174
know, equally

704
00:24:24,714 --> 00:24:25,934
disturbing experiences.

705
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:28,799
But then for her, it brought her straight

706
00:24:28,799 --> 00:24:31,859
to Christ. It's brought her straight back to

707
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,119
him and her relationship with him. And those

708
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:36,960
kind of stories, like, give me real hope

709
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:38,960
because that's horrible that that happened to her.

710
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,384
Yeah. So, I mean, would you say, like,

711
00:24:41,384 --> 00:24:42,684
friction should be expected

712
00:24:43,065 --> 00:24:45,884
as god's inviting you into Yeah. Something greater?

713
00:24:45,945 --> 00:24:47,945
Yeah. I think so. I mean, that's what

714
00:24:47,945 --> 00:24:50,345
his his tool is. His tool is friction

715
00:24:50,345 --> 00:24:52,184
for sure. Because we all know when it's

716
00:24:52,184 --> 00:24:54,980
really easy, like, really easy. You're kinda like,

717
00:24:55,039 --> 00:24:57,119
something's around this corner here. Yes. Something is

718
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:58,880
really around that corner. And I do I

719
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:00,180
think it's just reframing.

720
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:02,740
We just need to reframe and realize

721
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,440
if you're feeling friction, it doesn't mean, hey.

722
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,224
This isn't for me. It's more, let's engage

723
00:25:08,224 --> 00:25:10,065
then. Mhmm. Like like you said that earlier,

724
00:25:10,065 --> 00:25:11,664
like, let's engage. This is the time to

725
00:25:11,664 --> 00:25:12,164
engage

726
00:25:12,544 --> 00:25:14,704
and figure out how I can grow from

727
00:25:14,704 --> 00:25:16,464
this, how I can rough off my rough

728
00:25:16,464 --> 00:25:18,304
edges. And I think that's what all these

729
00:25:18,304 --> 00:25:20,625
women did. That's what was so interesting. Yeah.

730
00:25:20,625 --> 00:25:22,384
There's another story. I will tell this other

731
00:25:22,384 --> 00:25:24,380
story. This one, woman,

732
00:25:24,759 --> 00:25:26,360
she got divorced. It was kind of a

733
00:25:26,360 --> 00:25:28,460
public divorce in her ward.

734
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:29,420
And

735
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,279
she was like, I I don't wanna tell

736
00:25:32,279 --> 00:25:34,200
these three little kids to church tomorrow. I

737
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,279
just I'm not interested. This is gonna be

738
00:25:36,279 --> 00:25:39,545
terrible. And she thought to herself, well, actually,

739
00:25:39,605 --> 00:25:41,684
what I should do is just, like, go

740
00:25:41,684 --> 00:25:42,744
away for a while

741
00:25:43,285 --> 00:25:45,445
and then come back, and they'll be so

742
00:25:45,445 --> 00:25:48,244
excited that I've reactivated myself that no one

743
00:25:48,244 --> 00:25:50,345
will ever ask me these hard, tough questions.

744
00:25:50,644 --> 00:25:51,144
And

745
00:25:51,599 --> 00:25:54,099
she said she had an experience where she

746
00:25:54,319 --> 00:25:55,140
just felt

747
00:25:55,599 --> 00:25:57,839
and or thought or heard, well, how will

748
00:25:57,839 --> 00:25:59,519
they know what you believe? How will they

749
00:25:59,519 --> 00:26:02,339
know? Meaning her children. Mhmm. And she just,

750
00:26:02,559 --> 00:26:04,715
at that moment, thought, I do believe in

751
00:26:04,715 --> 00:26:07,615
Christ. I do believe going and participating

752
00:26:07,994 --> 00:26:10,715
in a, you know, flawed group of people

753
00:26:10,715 --> 00:26:12,555
together, trying to get more light and see

754
00:26:12,555 --> 00:26:13,055
Christ

755
00:26:13,515 --> 00:26:15,195
is important and I'm gonna go. And I

756
00:26:15,195 --> 00:26:16,955
just thought there's so many of them had

757
00:26:16,955 --> 00:26:20,099
experiences like that, where, you know, god kinda

758
00:26:20,099 --> 00:26:21,859
intervened in their worst moment and just let

759
00:26:21,859 --> 00:26:23,299
them know that they were seen for who

760
00:26:23,299 --> 00:26:24,740
they were and what they were going through.

761
00:26:24,740 --> 00:26:26,680
Yeah. Was there a reason you focused

762
00:26:27,059 --> 00:26:28,519
on stories of women

763
00:26:28,820 --> 00:26:30,980
just specifically? Like, maybe you related in that

764
00:26:30,980 --> 00:26:32,914
most because I'm sure men experience the same

765
00:26:32,914 --> 00:26:35,075
dynamic to some degree. I would agree that

766
00:26:35,075 --> 00:26:37,714
this friction thing is universal. I focused on

767
00:26:37,714 --> 00:26:38,775
the women because,

768
00:26:39,154 --> 00:26:41,154
honestly, when Christine was saying that to me,

769
00:26:41,154 --> 00:26:43,095
I about we knew about our grandmothers.

770
00:26:43,474 --> 00:26:45,394
I knew, oh, we don't have any of

771
00:26:45,394 --> 00:26:47,575
these women's stories. We just we don't.

772
00:26:48,009 --> 00:26:49,049
And, you know, you're not in a really

773
00:26:49,049 --> 00:26:50,569
precise, so you don't know this. But, like,

774
00:26:50,569 --> 00:26:52,890
if we talk about women, we go back

775
00:26:52,890 --> 00:26:56,169
to Emma or Eliza Snow or Susan Gates

776
00:26:56,169 --> 00:26:57,929
or like, a hundred and fifty or two

777
00:26:57,929 --> 00:26:59,950
hundred years ago is who we're holding up.

778
00:27:00,224 --> 00:27:00,964
And so

779
00:27:01,345 --> 00:27:04,464
there needs to be some relevant, relatable stories.

780
00:27:04,464 --> 00:27:06,144
I mean, those women were amazing. I'm not

781
00:27:06,144 --> 00:27:07,505
saying they weren't, but they also were in

782
00:27:07,505 --> 00:27:08,944
an environment where it was the wild, wild

783
00:27:08,944 --> 00:27:10,785
west here. It was a brand new church.

784
00:27:10,785 --> 00:27:13,365
Like, it's not relatable at all. Whereas

785
00:27:13,664 --> 00:27:15,265
I have to say, when I interview those

786
00:27:15,265 --> 00:27:16,970
women, when they were talking about their twenties,

787
00:27:16,970 --> 00:27:18,569
they were talking about how the 20 year

788
00:27:18,569 --> 00:27:21,129
olds today talk about the life. So they

789
00:27:21,129 --> 00:27:22,970
were embarking on this. Like, they thought it

790
00:27:22,970 --> 00:27:24,029
was super idealism.

791
00:27:24,490 --> 00:27:26,490
The world was opening up to them. They

792
00:27:26,490 --> 00:27:28,970
was education was available. Like, it was really

793
00:27:28,970 --> 00:27:30,805
changing all of a sudden for them, and

794
00:27:30,805 --> 00:27:32,484
they just had high hopes. And I look

795
00:27:32,484 --> 00:27:34,164
at the generation that's coming up now, and

796
00:27:34,164 --> 00:27:36,404
they have a similar thing happening. And I

797
00:27:36,404 --> 00:27:38,244
just thought we need to bring these two

798
00:27:38,244 --> 00:27:40,565
generations together. Like, they need to know that

799
00:27:40,565 --> 00:27:42,484
their grandmothers I mean, we all think it's

800
00:27:42,484 --> 00:27:44,265
always new, but it's not. Like, their grandmothers

801
00:27:44,325 --> 00:27:46,309
faced things that were really hard and were

802
00:27:46,309 --> 00:27:47,830
able to reason through it and think through

803
00:27:47,830 --> 00:27:49,910
it and pray through it and get comfort

804
00:27:49,910 --> 00:27:52,809
through it, and that needs to translate to

805
00:27:53,029 --> 00:27:55,830
us today and women today. And so, really,

806
00:27:55,830 --> 00:27:57,190
I mean, the honest answer is, yeah, we

807
00:27:57,190 --> 00:27:58,630
don't have the women's stories, so I wanted

808
00:27:58,630 --> 00:28:00,194
to have them. Yeah. Is there anything else

809
00:28:00,194 --> 00:28:02,275
you would say to the the woman out

810
00:28:02,275 --> 00:28:04,674
there who's because what I appreciate about some

811
00:28:04,674 --> 00:28:06,115
of these stories is that it's it's not

812
00:28:06,115 --> 00:28:08,394
like this person was running for senate or

813
00:28:08,515 --> 00:28:10,755
it's like these big stories. Right? There's big,

814
00:28:10,755 --> 00:28:12,750
you know, consequence or things. It's more like

815
00:28:12,910 --> 00:28:15,069
I had this really tough interaction with my

816
00:28:15,069 --> 00:28:17,490
local leader or Yeah. I was struggling just

817
00:28:17,549 --> 00:28:19,630
with these this invitation I was feeling as

818
00:28:19,630 --> 00:28:21,390
a mother when it just didn't make sense,

819
00:28:21,390 --> 00:28:23,170
but I knew God was in it. Right?

820
00:28:23,230 --> 00:28:25,795
So anything else you'd say to that woman

821
00:28:25,795 --> 00:28:27,815
out there who's, like, just sort of depleted,

822
00:28:27,955 --> 00:28:28,455
frustrated?

823
00:28:28,994 --> 00:28:31,555
I've tried so many times, but nothing seems

824
00:28:31,555 --> 00:28:34,115
to be working. Yeah. That's a that's a

825
00:28:34,115 --> 00:28:35,795
hard question. Thanks for that. Yeah. Sure. Just

826
00:28:35,875 --> 00:28:38,275
I appreciate that. Do softball. So Yeah. Thanks.

827
00:28:38,674 --> 00:28:40,214
You know, what I would say is

828
00:28:40,799 --> 00:28:42,480
I think that one of the things that

829
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:43,620
happened for their generation

830
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:45,920
was they were being forced into a question

831
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,320
around or. You can either be this or

832
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:48,820
that.

833
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,519
And I think the real question is more

834
00:28:51,519 --> 00:28:54,454
and. Like, it's an and question. Like, and

835
00:28:54,454 --> 00:28:56,454
it's also, like, what's the season? What are

836
00:28:56,454 --> 00:28:58,454
you trying to do? But the bigger thing

837
00:28:58,454 --> 00:28:59,835
I would say is

838
00:29:00,295 --> 00:29:02,234
I think we're all unique.

839
00:29:02,535 --> 00:29:04,855
And I think when you think about why

840
00:29:04,855 --> 00:29:06,775
we're here, it's to love god and our

841
00:29:06,775 --> 00:29:08,855
fellow men and ourselves. And I think what

842
00:29:08,855 --> 00:29:11,420
our loving our fellow men look like

843
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:13,960
is we get light, and we try and

844
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:15,559
share that light with others. I always think

845
00:29:15,559 --> 00:29:17,480
that light on the hill thing. And I

846
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:17,980
think

847
00:29:18,279 --> 00:29:19,579
women and men,

848
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:21,880
you're given you're unique. You're gonna have a

849
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:23,420
unique path in cooperation

850
00:29:24,244 --> 00:29:26,244
with our heavenly parents, which is, like, what

851
00:29:26,244 --> 00:29:28,085
does that look like? And then he they

852
00:29:28,085 --> 00:29:30,325
know us really well. And so I think

853
00:29:30,325 --> 00:29:31,545
the bottom line is,

854
00:29:31,845 --> 00:29:33,525
where does he want me to go share

855
00:29:33,525 --> 00:29:35,970
my light today? And it might look like

856
00:29:36,049 --> 00:29:38,210
the PTA. It might look like just my

857
00:29:38,210 --> 00:29:40,049
kids, my two little kids running around right

858
00:29:40,049 --> 00:29:42,309
now. That might be what your thing is.

859
00:29:42,450 --> 00:29:43,589
And I think

860
00:29:43,970 --> 00:29:44,470
he

861
00:29:44,769 --> 00:29:46,929
does hear us, and he does give us

862
00:29:46,929 --> 00:29:49,650
comfort and peace eventually. I mean, I'm not

863
00:29:49,650 --> 00:29:51,569
gonna say it comes immediately. I always hate

864
00:29:51,569 --> 00:29:53,704
those talks where, like, and immediately, I'm like,

865
00:29:53,704 --> 00:29:55,464
I don't know what, who, what plant, what

866
00:29:55,464 --> 00:29:57,644
planet are they on? Like, not immediately.

867
00:29:58,105 --> 00:29:59,325
But I do think

868
00:29:59,625 --> 00:30:01,944
you have to remember you're unique and comparing

869
00:30:01,944 --> 00:30:04,505
yourself to anybody else doesn't make any sense

870
00:30:04,744 --> 00:30:06,539
Yeah. At all. And luckily,

871
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:08,759
they know us the best. And so going

872
00:30:08,759 --> 00:30:11,559
to them really helps. Yeah. Are there well,

873
00:30:11,559 --> 00:30:13,400
let me ask. How did you find these

874
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,980
women for these stories? Right? Like So,

875
00:30:16,359 --> 00:30:17,019
you know,

876
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,480
a true fashion. Some of them a lot

877
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:20,700
of them knew each other

878
00:30:21,055 --> 00:30:22,654
because I think they had to have a

879
00:30:22,654 --> 00:30:24,654
support system. And they were, like, some of

880
00:30:24,654 --> 00:30:26,115
them were a lot of them were unicorns.

881
00:30:26,174 --> 00:30:28,595
Like Mhmm. You know, one of them

882
00:30:28,974 --> 00:30:30,275
was she actually

883
00:30:30,575 --> 00:30:32,755
she was Harvard medical trained, and

884
00:30:33,295 --> 00:30:34,015
she actually

885
00:30:34,750 --> 00:30:36,509
this is gonna be in my layman's terms,

886
00:30:36,509 --> 00:30:38,210
but she discovered the protein

887
00:30:38,669 --> 00:30:40,750
that allows us to do organ transplants. Oh,

888
00:30:40,750 --> 00:30:42,829
wow. Yeah. So she's quite a unicorn and

889
00:30:42,829 --> 00:30:45,230
amazing. So they kind of, like, ended up

890
00:30:45,230 --> 00:30:46,990
knowing each other because there were at that

891
00:30:46,990 --> 00:30:49,154
time, there were so few. And I think

892
00:30:49,154 --> 00:30:51,234
they found comfort in being able to talk

893
00:30:51,234 --> 00:30:52,515
to each other and knowing there was someone

894
00:30:52,515 --> 00:30:54,434
else out there. So And most of these

895
00:30:54,434 --> 00:30:56,755
are, like, older 70, 80 year old? Yeah.

896
00:30:56,755 --> 00:30:58,515
Yeah. Yeah. They're late seventies and eighties. Okay.

897
00:30:58,515 --> 00:30:59,890
And I was also limited by who was

898
00:30:59,890 --> 00:31:01,170
still alive. Yeah. Yeah. I hate to say

899
00:31:01,250 --> 00:31:02,769
I'm sure there are several of you. Like,

900
00:31:02,769 --> 00:31:04,529
I wanted to interview, and I did talk

901
00:31:04,529 --> 00:31:06,049
to her daughters, but because of the way

902
00:31:06,049 --> 00:31:07,569
the book was, I couldn't use it. I

903
00:31:07,569 --> 00:31:10,250
wanted to interview Ollie Walker because she was

904
00:31:10,529 --> 00:31:12,450
First female governor. Right? In the state of

905
00:31:12,450 --> 00:31:12,950
Utah.

906
00:31:13,345 --> 00:31:15,025
And that would have been super interesting, but

907
00:31:15,025 --> 00:31:16,465
she had passed on. So I and I

908
00:31:16,465 --> 00:31:18,945
wanted to get their stories first person Yeah.

909
00:31:19,105 --> 00:31:20,785
Because even as their daughters like, I have

910
00:31:20,785 --> 00:31:22,705
a different BOI mom. I don't know so

911
00:31:22,705 --> 00:31:25,525
much of, like, struggles that she had. So,

912
00:31:25,669 --> 00:31:27,990
anyway, I was able to, like, tap Christine

913
00:31:27,990 --> 00:31:30,309
Durham, Newsom, and then from them, I was

914
00:31:30,309 --> 00:31:32,789
able to get people. I also wanted to

915
00:31:32,789 --> 00:31:35,029
have a reflection, a little bit more diversity,

916
00:31:35,029 --> 00:31:36,869
and that was the hardest thing to get.

917
00:31:36,869 --> 00:31:39,210
Because back in those days, we were mostly

918
00:31:39,429 --> 00:31:42,194
a white Yeah. Church. And so having the

919
00:31:42,194 --> 00:31:45,335
experiences of people of some of the marginalized

920
00:31:45,795 --> 00:31:47,954
minorities, it was hard to find those, but

921
00:31:47,954 --> 00:31:49,234
I did find some. And and they had

922
00:31:49,234 --> 00:31:52,194
a different experience as well. They didn't really

923
00:31:52,434 --> 00:31:54,035
when they heard the prophet talk about not

924
00:31:54,035 --> 00:31:55,234
working, they were like, well, I don't know

925
00:31:55,234 --> 00:31:56,940
what that means because we're all working like

926
00:31:56,940 --> 00:31:59,740
three jobs. So that doesn't apply. Yeah. For

927
00:31:59,980 --> 00:32:02,059
I mean, which and that might be the

928
00:32:02,059 --> 00:32:03,980
case. You know, you might hear someone think,

929
00:32:03,980 --> 00:32:05,740
oh, that doesn't really apply. Like, that's how

930
00:32:05,740 --> 00:32:08,140
my life I can't do that. Right. And

931
00:32:08,140 --> 00:32:09,904
what I feel like so relevant with the

932
00:32:09,984 --> 00:32:11,585
in, you know, this book and the stories

933
00:32:11,585 --> 00:32:13,664
you tell with leading saints is in the

934
00:32:13,664 --> 00:32:15,284
beginning, we started as very practical

935
00:32:15,825 --> 00:32:17,904
best practice resource. And then along the way,

936
00:32:17,904 --> 00:32:18,565
we discovered

937
00:32:19,105 --> 00:32:21,664
almost this hidden demographic of individuals who felt

938
00:32:21,664 --> 00:32:24,049
called to be a Zion builder even though

939
00:32:24,049 --> 00:32:25,730
they weren't the bishop, the release site president,

940
00:32:25,730 --> 00:32:27,490
so forth. Right? And so I I just

941
00:32:27,490 --> 00:32:29,890
love that focus on on that group because

942
00:32:29,890 --> 00:32:31,890
it it is quite a dominant group as

943
00:32:31,890 --> 00:32:33,650
Latter day Saints. I mean, we are covenant

944
00:32:33,650 --> 00:32:36,105
making people that go to the temple. And

945
00:32:36,105 --> 00:32:37,625
one of the five covenants is how will

946
00:32:37,625 --> 00:32:39,464
you consecrate your life and build up the

947
00:32:39,464 --> 00:32:40,904
kingdom of god with all your time, talents,

948
00:32:40,904 --> 00:32:42,505
and everything that Yeah. God has given you.

949
00:32:42,505 --> 00:32:44,585
Right? So I wanna I'm curious of just

950
00:32:44,585 --> 00:32:46,105
looking on the spectrum. Like, if you were

951
00:32:46,105 --> 00:32:49,464
coaching someone maybe more tactically of how to

952
00:32:49,464 --> 00:32:51,619
be a Zion builder. On the one side

953
00:32:51,619 --> 00:32:54,099
of the scale, like, is there a way

954
00:32:54,099 --> 00:32:56,359
to go take this too far or be

955
00:32:56,740 --> 00:32:57,640
too aggressive

956
00:32:58,019 --> 00:32:58,519
with

957
00:32:58,819 --> 00:33:00,919
making change or pushing back on the friction?

958
00:33:01,539 --> 00:33:03,940
I think the people that were the most

959
00:33:04,419 --> 00:33:05,880
so let me say about friction.

960
00:33:06,255 --> 00:33:08,174
I think there's an old wives' tale of,

961
00:33:08,174 --> 00:33:10,495
like, if you look through a straw, the

962
00:33:10,575 --> 00:33:12,015
all you're gonna see out of the universe,

963
00:33:12,015 --> 00:33:13,855
all you're gonna see is that little, like,

964
00:33:13,855 --> 00:33:16,095
dust straw thing, and you're not gonna see

965
00:33:16,095 --> 00:33:17,695
the whole thing. So I think if you

966
00:33:17,695 --> 00:33:19,775
let the friction consume you and have that

967
00:33:19,775 --> 00:33:21,750
be the only thing you see, you're missing

968
00:33:21,750 --> 00:33:23,769
out on the beauty of the universe. Right?

969
00:33:23,990 --> 00:33:25,190
And so let me just say that as

970
00:33:25,190 --> 00:33:26,009
table stakes.

971
00:33:26,309 --> 00:33:28,170
What I did see in these women

972
00:33:28,710 --> 00:33:30,950
that I think why they were able to

973
00:33:30,950 --> 00:33:33,670
stay close to a faith community and flows

974
00:33:33,670 --> 00:33:34,809
closer to their savior

975
00:33:35,284 --> 00:33:37,924
was they felt like their job was to

976
00:33:37,924 --> 00:33:40,744
live their lives, but also be very authentic,

977
00:33:41,365 --> 00:33:44,105
educate, and articulate in their sphere of influence.

978
00:33:44,644 --> 00:33:46,244
And some of them had bigger spheres of

979
00:33:46,244 --> 00:33:49,269
influences than others, but they were very articulate

980
00:33:49,329 --> 00:33:51,970
in being throughout their lives saying, oh, yes.

981
00:33:51,970 --> 00:33:54,609
No. I know that the prophet has said

982
00:33:54,609 --> 00:33:56,769
this. Me and my husband spent a bunch

983
00:33:56,769 --> 00:33:58,609
of time praying and fasting, and this is

984
00:33:58,609 --> 00:34:01,329
the right path for me. And so they

985
00:34:01,329 --> 00:34:02,390
were very articulate

986
00:34:03,554 --> 00:34:05,394
in being able to say, this is what

987
00:34:05,394 --> 00:34:07,394
my belief system is. This is what I

988
00:34:07,394 --> 00:34:09,074
believe. I know that god you know, and

989
00:34:09,074 --> 00:34:11,315
here's my answer. And I think that's something

990
00:34:11,315 --> 00:34:12,994
that's available to all of us. And I

991
00:34:12,994 --> 00:34:14,755
think we you're safe when you do that

992
00:34:14,755 --> 00:34:17,130
just for yourself. And safe is not the

993
00:34:17,130 --> 00:34:18,650
right word. It's the opposite of friction and

994
00:34:18,650 --> 00:34:19,849
growth. So I don't know why I use

995
00:34:19,849 --> 00:34:21,630
that word. But I think

996
00:34:21,929 --> 00:34:24,510
where you'll grow the most is when you

997
00:34:24,650 --> 00:34:26,429
don't only focus on the friction,

998
00:34:26,730 --> 00:34:28,889
but see the broader view and live your

999
00:34:28,889 --> 00:34:30,905
life. And let your life be that example

1000
00:34:30,965 --> 00:34:31,864
and be articulate

1001
00:34:32,244 --> 00:34:34,425
and in positions that you can

1002
00:34:34,724 --> 00:34:37,125
influence for good. Tell your stories to the

1003
00:34:37,125 --> 00:34:40,505
younger generation. Mhmm. Like, they're missing those stories.

1004
00:34:41,045 --> 00:34:43,380
And I think it's such an example. What

1005
00:34:43,380 --> 00:34:45,380
was weird on the people that I interviewed,

1006
00:34:45,380 --> 00:34:47,059
almost all of them said, well, my grandmother

1007
00:34:47,059 --> 00:34:49,539
really impacted me. Like, unbidden to me, I

1008
00:34:49,539 --> 00:34:50,579
didn't know that was gonna be a thing.

1009
00:34:50,579 --> 00:34:52,500
And I'm like, yeah. We need these stories.

1010
00:34:52,500 --> 00:34:54,984
Yeah. Not their mothers. Yes. Their mothers, but

1011
00:34:54,984 --> 00:34:55,804
it was the grandmother's

1012
00:34:56,184 --> 00:34:58,905
stories that were super impactful. Yeah. And is

1013
00:34:58,905 --> 00:35:00,425
it like a process? Because I'm just thinking

1014
00:35:00,425 --> 00:35:01,885
of those a personality

1015
00:35:02,744 --> 00:35:04,344
individuals who are like, I know what god

1016
00:35:04,344 --> 00:35:06,505
told me. I'm going for this. Nobody's gonna

1017
00:35:06,505 --> 00:35:08,510
stop me. Bring the friction on. But is

1018
00:35:08,510 --> 00:35:10,190
it a a process of sort of picking

1019
00:35:10,190 --> 00:35:10,849
your battles

1020
00:35:11,230 --> 00:35:13,230
and realize, okay. Maybe I need to back

1021
00:35:13,230 --> 00:35:14,829
off for six months. I don't know. Like,

1022
00:35:14,829 --> 00:35:16,670
is it I think it depends on if

1023
00:35:16,670 --> 00:35:17,949
you think you're called

1024
00:35:18,589 --> 00:35:20,109
I don't know that any of these women

1025
00:35:20,655 --> 00:35:22,255
I don't know. Jill Durer is in there

1026
00:35:22,255 --> 00:35:23,775
as one of the stories, and she talked

1027
00:35:23,775 --> 00:35:25,215
about how she works in the church history

1028
00:35:25,215 --> 00:35:26,815
department. So she worked there at during this

1029
00:35:26,815 --> 00:35:29,315
time when when where should be staying home.

1030
00:35:30,574 --> 00:35:32,175
So she you know? Yeah. That's what she

1031
00:35:32,175 --> 00:35:33,534
was doing. Her job. She was actually

1032
00:35:34,110 --> 00:35:35,809
and she said, you know,

1033
00:35:36,349 --> 00:35:38,130
for organizations to change,

1034
00:35:38,670 --> 00:35:40,190
and we can lump the church in as

1035
00:35:40,190 --> 00:35:40,849
an organization,

1036
00:35:41,390 --> 00:35:43,869
you have to kinda have friction from the

1037
00:35:43,869 --> 00:35:45,710
inside a little bit to kinda move it

1038
00:35:45,710 --> 00:35:47,454
around and think about different. And you have

1039
00:35:47,454 --> 00:35:49,074
to have a little friction from the outside

1040
00:35:49,135 --> 00:35:50,815
as well. And you see that when you

1041
00:35:50,815 --> 00:35:53,135
run companies or whatever. You get feedback from

1042
00:35:53,135 --> 00:35:53,795
the market.

1043
00:35:54,094 --> 00:35:55,454
You know, you get free like, the market's

1044
00:35:55,454 --> 00:35:57,135
like, your product isn't what we need it

1045
00:35:57,135 --> 00:35:58,335
to be right now. And at the same

1046
00:35:58,335 --> 00:35:59,694
time, you have people in your company that

1047
00:35:59,694 --> 00:36:01,054
are like, hey. I've been talking to the

1048
00:36:01,054 --> 00:36:01,554
customers,

1049
00:36:02,489 --> 00:36:04,809
and we need to adjust this. And I

1050
00:36:04,809 --> 00:36:06,510
think that is true of any organization.

1051
00:36:07,210 --> 00:36:10,170
The end game is we're trying to be

1052
00:36:10,170 --> 00:36:11,690
more like Jesus. We're just trying to be

1053
00:36:11,690 --> 00:36:14,489
more like Jesus. Yeah. That's great. What advice

1054
00:36:14,489 --> 00:36:15,630
would you give to leaders,

1055
00:36:16,215 --> 00:36:18,295
you know, local church leaders? Because I know

1056
00:36:18,295 --> 00:36:19,355
sometimes there's this,

1057
00:36:19,894 --> 00:36:22,655
like, there's individuals who feels you know, who

1058
00:36:22,695 --> 00:36:24,135
or maybe in this camp or they feel

1059
00:36:24,135 --> 00:36:26,135
like this is there's a certain direction I

1060
00:36:26,135 --> 00:36:27,815
need to do or, well, Neil, live my

1061
00:36:27,815 --> 00:36:28,315
life,

1062
00:36:28,679 --> 00:36:30,839
and you're the one giving friction a little

1063
00:36:30,839 --> 00:36:32,599
bit. Yeah. Or we sort of avoid these,

1064
00:36:32,599 --> 00:36:34,539
like, okay. We need to release society presidency.

1065
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,119
Anybody else but that person. Right? And it

1066
00:36:38,119 --> 00:36:40,519
breaks my heart sometimes as I because, naturally,

1067
00:36:40,519 --> 00:36:42,280
this is human nature. We kinda just wanna

1068
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,119
dismiss them, pretend they're not there, and maybe

1069
00:36:44,119 --> 00:36:46,255
they'll just go away or they'll stop, you

1070
00:36:46,255 --> 00:36:48,335
know, speaking up or when in reality, it's

1071
00:36:48,335 --> 00:36:51,775
like, how can we leverage that excitement, that

1072
00:36:51,775 --> 00:36:54,974
energy Yeah. Just facilitate a beautiful culture even

1073
00:36:54,974 --> 00:36:56,894
though it's maybe not the exact culture that

1074
00:36:56,894 --> 00:36:59,280
I would build as the keyholder in in

1075
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:00,640
the organization? What so what advice would you

1076
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:01,920
give to leaders in that? It's a really

1077
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:03,840
good point because I think you have to

1078
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:04,340
reframe

1079
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:06,019
friction because

1080
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,579
that person or the person is thinking differently

1081
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:09,219
or

1082
00:37:09,519 --> 00:37:11,760
they're bringing friction up. Right? And if we

1083
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:13,539
look at it and think that's an opportunity

1084
00:37:13,605 --> 00:37:14,344
for growth,

1085
00:37:14,885 --> 00:37:17,045
meaning, why are they thinking that way? And

1086
00:37:17,045 --> 00:37:18,484
what can I learn from that? And can

1087
00:37:18,484 --> 00:37:20,085
I have empathy for that? And what lived

1088
00:37:20,085 --> 00:37:22,425
experience do they have that I don't have?

1089
00:37:22,885 --> 00:37:24,025
And I I think

1090
00:37:24,405 --> 00:37:24,965
being able

1091
00:37:25,445 --> 00:37:28,905
stories are so powerful, understanding people's stories.

1092
00:37:29,610 --> 00:37:32,090
I mean, Christ used parables all the time.

1093
00:37:32,090 --> 00:37:34,809
Like, understanding people's stories, all of a sudden,

1094
00:37:34,809 --> 00:37:37,450
you get so much, oh, I get how

1095
00:37:37,450 --> 00:37:39,289
they did that. I get them now. I

1096
00:37:39,289 --> 00:37:41,690
get why they're doing that. I get how

1097
00:37:41,690 --> 00:37:43,804
this applies to me. And I just think

1098
00:37:43,804 --> 00:37:45,984
we have to be really conscious

1099
00:37:46,844 --> 00:37:47,984
of allowing stories,

1100
00:37:48,284 --> 00:37:48,784
allowing

1101
00:37:49,324 --> 00:37:51,484
people and not judging them and thinking, well,

1102
00:37:51,484 --> 00:37:53,724
that's how that's not true, or that shouldn't

1103
00:37:53,724 --> 00:37:55,404
be, or blah blah blah, whatever we do

1104
00:37:55,404 --> 00:37:57,679
in our judgment. And just sit back and

1105
00:37:57,679 --> 00:38:00,159
go, luckily, god's in charge. He's so in

1106
00:38:00,159 --> 00:38:01,760
charge, and what can I learn from this?

1107
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:03,599
Because that's the better way to do it.

1108
00:38:03,599 --> 00:38:05,359
Yeah. I'd I'd love that that for a

1109
00:38:05,359 --> 00:38:06,339
leader to say

1110
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:08,559
to just say, what's your story? Tell me

1111
00:38:08,559 --> 00:38:09,760
how you got here. Why are you so

1112
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:11,199
passionate about this? Yeah. You know, how did

1113
00:38:11,199 --> 00:38:13,324
god show up to lead you this way,

1114
00:38:13,324 --> 00:38:15,484
right, rather than, sorry, sister. We don't got

1115
00:38:15,484 --> 00:38:17,565
the budget. Just please bring stop bringing it

1116
00:38:17,565 --> 00:38:19,644
up, Fred. Yeah. And that story can be

1117
00:38:19,644 --> 00:38:20,784
a beautiful sanctifying,

1118
00:38:21,164 --> 00:38:24,059
you know, discipleship moment. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome.

1119
00:38:24,619 --> 00:38:26,860
What about bringing us oh, I was gonna

1120
00:38:26,860 --> 00:38:28,320
ask on the other side of the spectrum.

1121
00:38:28,619 --> 00:38:30,559
You know, there's a lot of women there

1122
00:38:30,699 --> 00:38:33,680
in the thick of parenting and mothering, and

1123
00:38:33,900 --> 00:38:35,660
it's easy to get, especially in this day

1124
00:38:35,660 --> 00:38:37,820
and age, hyper focused on your children where

1125
00:38:37,820 --> 00:38:38,719
you're so

1126
00:38:39,164 --> 00:38:40,925
concerned about their every need and how they're

1127
00:38:40,925 --> 00:38:42,204
developing, and are they gonna go on a

1128
00:38:42,204 --> 00:38:43,885
mission, and are they going to seminary? What

1129
00:38:43,885 --> 00:38:44,844
if they don't? What if they don't get

1130
00:38:44,844 --> 00:38:47,425
married? Right? All these these worries and anxieties.

1131
00:38:47,485 --> 00:38:49,324
And so I kinda feel like that can

1132
00:38:49,324 --> 00:38:51,265
take them out of the game completely because

1133
00:38:51,530 --> 00:38:53,289
they become so focused on their children. But

1134
00:38:53,289 --> 00:38:54,809
at the same time, they're like, well, shouldn't

1135
00:38:54,809 --> 00:38:56,730
I be? It's a great question. I think

1136
00:38:56,730 --> 00:38:58,989
it kinda goes back to that idea of

1137
00:38:59,609 --> 00:39:00,109
being

1138
00:39:00,409 --> 00:39:04,349
broad in your engagement with God to say,

1139
00:39:05,505 --> 00:39:07,344
where do I need to show love for

1140
00:39:07,344 --> 00:39:09,184
my fellow men? Where can I give light

1141
00:39:09,184 --> 00:39:11,924
to other people? What forums could I because

1142
00:39:11,984 --> 00:39:12,964
it's so interesting.

1143
00:39:13,505 --> 00:39:15,284
So many forums are available

1144
00:39:15,744 --> 00:39:17,824
where women or men can get involved in

1145
00:39:17,824 --> 00:39:19,980
and you meet the one that you have

1146
00:39:20,219 --> 00:39:22,059
one conversation with and it changes their life

1147
00:39:22,059 --> 00:39:23,340
forever. I mean, if we think about our

1148
00:39:23,340 --> 00:39:24,780
own lives, that happens all the time in

1149
00:39:24,780 --> 00:39:26,619
my life. Somebody says something to me because

1150
00:39:26,619 --> 00:39:28,380
I happen to be somewhere, and I'm like,

1151
00:39:28,380 --> 00:39:31,019
what? And, you know, it it brings me

1152
00:39:31,019 --> 00:39:33,179
up short, and I learned something from it.

1153
00:39:33,179 --> 00:39:34,699
They've just given me some light. And so

1154
00:39:34,699 --> 00:39:37,644
I think really being broad and saying, I

1155
00:39:37,644 --> 00:39:39,505
think that God brought me down here

1156
00:39:39,804 --> 00:39:41,885
to be able to impact as many of

1157
00:39:41,885 --> 00:39:44,125
his children as are available to me based

1158
00:39:44,125 --> 00:39:45,484
on my skill set, based on my time,

1159
00:39:45,484 --> 00:39:47,164
based on what's happening in my life. And

1160
00:39:47,164 --> 00:39:49,105
being broad and asking that question

1161
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:51,400
and being open to when things show up

1162
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,880
and do it. I think that's where we

1163
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,519
can really impact the world for good is

1164
00:39:56,519 --> 00:39:58,199
by using our light to give other people

1165
00:39:58,199 --> 00:40:00,039
light. Yeah. And so maybe look for opportunities

1166
00:40:00,039 --> 00:40:02,039
to broaden that. You know, not just your

1167
00:40:02,039 --> 00:40:03,800
children, but Yeah. But think of it. Yeah.

1168
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:05,694
To reframe it. To think, I'm here to

1169
00:40:05,694 --> 00:40:07,054
give light. So, like, where else can I

1170
00:40:07,054 --> 00:40:09,135
give light? Maybe it's walking with this woman

1171
00:40:09,135 --> 00:40:10,974
down the street that I don't know, you

1172
00:40:10,974 --> 00:40:12,174
know, and going on a walk with her.

1173
00:40:12,174 --> 00:40:14,574
Or maybe it's whatever. Like, whatever those things

1174
00:40:14,574 --> 00:40:15,954
are. But I think we have to be

1175
00:40:16,094 --> 00:40:17,234
open to them and remember

1176
00:40:17,534 --> 00:40:19,829
that's why we're here. It's to love our

1177
00:40:19,829 --> 00:40:21,269
fellow men and and be the light on

1178
00:40:21,269 --> 00:40:21,849
the hill.

1179
00:40:22,150 --> 00:40:23,430
In most of these stories, did you feel

1180
00:40:23,430 --> 00:40:25,269
like there was that principle of, like, I

1181
00:40:25,269 --> 00:40:26,670
know what god told me, and that's why

1182
00:40:26,670 --> 00:40:27,910
I was on this path? Yeah. I mean,

1183
00:40:27,910 --> 00:40:29,989
is that Yeah. The core principle there? Yep.

1184
00:40:29,989 --> 00:40:30,809
Yep. Absolutely.

1185
00:40:31,190 --> 00:40:32,010
Nice. Absolutely.

1186
00:40:32,815 --> 00:40:35,375
And, also, the core principle was they did

1187
00:40:35,375 --> 00:40:36,815
believe in the prophet and do believe in

1188
00:40:36,815 --> 00:40:38,894
the prophet and heard his words. Stay no

1189
00:40:38,894 --> 00:40:40,894
problem. Said, what does that look like in

1190
00:40:40,894 --> 00:40:42,574
my life? What does that need to look

1191
00:40:42,574 --> 00:40:45,215
like? And I think that's the probably the

1192
00:40:45,215 --> 00:40:47,849
question we should be like, back to your

1193
00:40:48,170 --> 00:40:50,650
mom ex example. The question we should be

1194
00:40:50,650 --> 00:40:52,090
asking is, like, what is should this look

1195
00:40:52,090 --> 00:40:54,570
like? What should this look like? Mhmm. I'm

1196
00:40:54,570 --> 00:40:56,250
open to whatever you want this to look

1197
00:40:56,250 --> 00:40:58,090
like. What could this look like? Yeah. Yeah.

1198
00:40:58,090 --> 00:40:58,829
That's awesome.

1199
00:40:59,210 --> 00:41:01,364
Dink us to, like, what you're you know,

1200
00:41:01,364 --> 00:41:04,085
with this experience of interviewing and the and

1201
00:41:04,085 --> 00:41:05,945
hearing all these stories and now the

1202
00:41:06,405 --> 00:41:09,605
society today in this Instagram world, which is

1203
00:41:09,605 --> 00:41:11,844
obviously dominated by women and things. And and

1204
00:41:11,844 --> 00:41:13,445
I'm asking this as a, you know, white

1205
00:41:13,445 --> 00:41:15,224
middle aged man, and and so

1206
00:41:15,769 --> 00:41:16,889
correct me where I if I need to

1207
00:41:16,889 --> 00:41:19,289
be corrected with my inexperience in that world.

1208
00:41:19,289 --> 00:41:21,609
But are there, like it seems like in

1209
00:41:21,609 --> 00:41:22,670
this content generation

1210
00:41:23,210 --> 00:41:24,489
I'm trying to think what I'm what I'm

1211
00:41:24,489 --> 00:41:26,809
getting at. But, like, sometimes these efforts can

1212
00:41:26,809 --> 00:41:29,405
be do you feel like the toxic nature

1213
00:41:29,405 --> 00:41:30,224
of politics

1214
00:41:30,684 --> 00:41:33,344
sometimes inserts itself in these places and

1215
00:41:33,724 --> 00:41:35,485
and corrupts these these journeys a little bit?

1216
00:41:35,485 --> 00:41:36,684
Does that make sense? I mean, what comes

1217
00:41:36,684 --> 00:41:38,545
to mind as I say that? It's so

1218
00:41:38,764 --> 00:41:41,264
interesting question. I'm not sure the question.

1219
00:41:41,724 --> 00:41:43,880
But I think what you might be saying

1220
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:44,380
is

1221
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:46,059
by telling stories,

1222
00:41:46,599 --> 00:41:48,360
is there a risk that they can be

1223
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,739
co opted Right. For something for something else.

1224
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:53,980
Right. A different agenda. Yeah. A different agenda.

1225
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,575
Yep. That's true. That is true. But I

1226
00:41:56,575 --> 00:41:58,094
think at the end of the day, as

1227
00:41:58,094 --> 00:41:58,835
they hear,

1228
00:41:59,855 --> 00:42:02,434
it's on us, like, when we hear anything

1229
00:42:02,655 --> 00:42:03,155
to

1230
00:42:03,614 --> 00:42:04,755
be really conscious

1231
00:42:05,055 --> 00:42:06,994
of how our body feels,

1232
00:42:07,295 --> 00:42:10,859
be praying, be really conscious of how do

1233
00:42:10,859 --> 00:42:12,400
I what I take in

1234
00:42:12,699 --> 00:42:14,380
can be really impactful on me for good

1235
00:42:14,380 --> 00:42:17,179
or bad. And how do I, you know,

1236
00:42:17,179 --> 00:42:19,279
sift all these things and decide

1237
00:42:19,739 --> 00:42:21,099
what's good for me and what can I

1238
00:42:21,099 --> 00:42:22,934
learn from it? I think if you're in

1239
00:42:22,934 --> 00:42:24,635
the place where you're thinking,

1240
00:42:25,094 --> 00:42:26,135
how do I get more light and how

1241
00:42:26,135 --> 00:42:27,255
do I get more light to people? And

1242
00:42:27,255 --> 00:42:29,175
that's how I approach everything I hear, then

1243
00:42:29,175 --> 00:42:30,855
that's gonna be a really great filter for

1244
00:42:30,855 --> 00:42:33,574
you. Mhmm. But again, yeah, I actually worried

1245
00:42:33,574 --> 00:42:35,175
when I did this. I knew I was

1246
00:42:35,175 --> 00:42:36,454
supposed to do this book. I didn't wanna

1247
00:42:36,454 --> 00:42:37,655
do it. I don't know if I already

1248
00:42:37,655 --> 00:42:38,739
told you this. I did it in two

1249
00:42:38,739 --> 00:42:40,739
and a half months. I interviewed everybody and

1250
00:42:40,739 --> 00:42:41,700
wrote the book in two and a half

1251
00:42:41,700 --> 00:42:43,700
months. I'm not actually a writer. And the

1252
00:42:43,700 --> 00:42:44,200
people

1253
00:42:44,739 --> 00:42:46,260
I mean, I am. If you read it,

1254
00:42:46,260 --> 00:42:48,739
I actually can write, it turns out. But

1255
00:42:48,739 --> 00:42:51,059
it what's funny is when I ran Deseret

1256
00:42:51,059 --> 00:42:52,980
News, I had editorial and business under me,

1257
00:42:52,980 --> 00:42:54,945
and I had church news as well. And

1258
00:42:54,945 --> 00:42:56,864
when I first got there, the journalists were

1259
00:42:56,864 --> 00:42:58,724
not happy because my background

1260
00:42:59,025 --> 00:43:01,364
is a tech executive, so running tech companies

1261
00:43:01,744 --> 00:43:04,224
not here in Utah. Mhmm. And they were

1262
00:43:04,224 --> 00:43:06,625
very upset because I didn't I'm not a

1263
00:43:06,625 --> 00:43:09,809
writer, apparently. So it's been hilarious in the

1264
00:43:09,809 --> 00:43:11,369
last couple weeks where they're like, you have

1265
00:43:11,369 --> 00:43:13,010
a book. You wrote a book. I'm like,

1266
00:43:13,010 --> 00:43:14,309
yeah. I can actually

1267
00:43:14,849 --> 00:43:16,710
write. It turns out I can write.

1268
00:43:17,089 --> 00:43:18,929
But so I did it really fast because

1269
00:43:18,929 --> 00:43:20,210
I knew I was supposed to. I knew

1270
00:43:20,210 --> 00:43:20,835
I needed to

1271
00:43:21,714 --> 00:43:24,012
capture these women's stories. And for whatever reason,

1272
00:43:24,012 --> 00:43:24,835
they need to be out there. And it's

1273
00:43:24,835 --> 00:43:26,614
been interesting because I've had some pushback

1274
00:43:27,155 --> 00:43:28,835
from people that I was so surprised and

1275
00:43:28,835 --> 00:43:30,355
they said, I was really worried to read

1276
00:43:30,355 --> 00:43:31,714
your book. I'm like, why were you worried

1277
00:43:31,714 --> 00:43:33,074
to read my book? And they're like, I

1278
00:43:33,074 --> 00:43:34,514
was afraid it was a feminist book. And

1279
00:43:34,514 --> 00:43:36,214
I'm like, I don't know what that means.

1280
00:43:36,750 --> 00:43:38,510
If you mean by feminist, I think that

1281
00:43:38,510 --> 00:43:40,690
men and women are equal in God's sight.

1282
00:43:40,750 --> 00:43:42,829
Yeah. That's what this book is. I don't

1283
00:43:42,829 --> 00:43:45,150
know. Anyway, the people that have said that

1284
00:43:45,150 --> 00:43:46,210
to me, I was really nervous.

1285
00:43:46,510 --> 00:43:47,789
And then they said but then I started

1286
00:43:47,789 --> 00:43:49,550
reading the book and I'm like, oh, this

1287
00:43:49,550 --> 00:43:51,469
is about how do I have a relationship

1288
00:43:51,469 --> 00:43:53,144
with God and how we each are unique

1289
00:43:53,144 --> 00:43:54,364
and we follow that path.

1290
00:43:54,744 --> 00:43:57,085
So I think you can come to things

1291
00:43:57,545 --> 00:44:00,025
already worried and then not be worried. Like,

1292
00:44:00,025 --> 00:44:01,625
if you just be are more like, how

1293
00:44:01,625 --> 00:44:03,465
do I approach these things? How do I

1294
00:44:03,465 --> 00:44:04,905
get light? How do I give light to

1295
00:44:04,905 --> 00:44:06,510
other people? But I was really

1296
00:44:06,809 --> 00:44:08,010
and I knew that was gonna be the

1297
00:44:08,010 --> 00:44:09,450
case. I'm like, oh, yeah. People don't wanna

1298
00:44:09,450 --> 00:44:10,590
hear about women's stories.

1299
00:44:10,970 --> 00:44:14,590
So sorry. I did some. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.

1300
00:44:14,970 --> 00:44:16,730
And I'll go here maybe maybe that is

1301
00:44:16,970 --> 00:44:19,815
this is another impossible question I realized. But

1302
00:44:20,054 --> 00:44:21,655
because, you know, going back to that, sort

1303
00:44:21,655 --> 00:44:23,355
of that nature of somebody's

1304
00:44:23,894 --> 00:44:24,394
revelation,

1305
00:44:24,775 --> 00:44:27,655
you know, a woman's revelation to engage in

1306
00:44:27,655 --> 00:44:29,194
in a frictional journey,

1307
00:44:29,734 --> 00:44:30,315
you know,

1308
00:44:30,694 --> 00:44:32,694
the minute there's sort of this feeling of

1309
00:44:32,694 --> 00:44:34,554
like, oh, you're one of the strong women.

1310
00:44:34,670 --> 00:44:36,110
You know, you you actually have to be

1311
00:44:36,110 --> 00:44:37,230
in this camp, and you have to believe

1312
00:44:37,230 --> 00:44:39,150
a, b, c, d politically and this. And

1313
00:44:39,150 --> 00:44:40,590
and if you're not, well, you you're doing

1314
00:44:40,590 --> 00:44:41,869
it wrong. And then, you know, that group

1315
00:44:41,869 --> 00:44:43,710
kinda co opts you. And so and then

1316
00:44:43,710 --> 00:44:45,550
it can simply just get co opted by

1317
00:44:45,550 --> 00:44:47,170
this. The goal is equality.

1318
00:44:47,715 --> 00:44:50,275
Equality or nothing. Right? And I see that

1319
00:44:50,275 --> 00:44:52,355
in messages on online with a lot of

1320
00:44:52,355 --> 00:44:54,275
women where it's just like, listen. If there

1321
00:44:54,275 --> 00:44:56,355
aren't five men and five women in ward

1322
00:44:56,355 --> 00:44:59,394
council, it's broken. Five men, five women broken.

1323
00:44:59,394 --> 00:45:01,699
And if, you know, women can't be in

1324
00:45:01,699 --> 00:45:03,460
bishop breaks broken. If women you know, if

1325
00:45:03,619 --> 00:45:05,219
really started prisons can't sit on the stand

1326
00:45:05,219 --> 00:45:07,619
broken. Right? I'm just like and we start

1327
00:45:07,619 --> 00:45:09,940
to do things and consider things progress just

1328
00:45:09,940 --> 00:45:12,260
for equality's sake when I'm like, well, actually,

1329
00:45:12,260 --> 00:45:14,280
I think mortality is much more complex.

1330
00:45:14,704 --> 00:45:16,945
Men and women are different for valid reasons,

1331
00:45:16,945 --> 00:45:18,385
and I think God created us that way.

1332
00:45:18,385 --> 00:45:20,465
And so sometimes I just worry that we're

1333
00:45:20,545 --> 00:45:22,465
we get hyped up on this equality or

1334
00:45:22,465 --> 00:45:24,784
nothing. So respond to that. Okay. That is

1335
00:45:24,784 --> 00:45:26,864
such something that I don't even wanna respond

1336
00:45:26,864 --> 00:45:28,385
to. But what I will say You can

1337
00:45:28,385 --> 00:45:30,179
get it out. You can get final say.

1338
00:45:30,339 --> 00:45:32,440
Okay. So I what I will say is,

1339
00:45:32,900 --> 00:45:33,960
I think the church

1340
00:45:34,339 --> 00:45:37,380
is designed for friction. I think it's designed

1341
00:45:37,380 --> 00:45:39,619
to give us friction. Yeah. I think you're

1342
00:45:39,619 --> 00:45:41,539
gonna have a different experience if you're a

1343
00:45:41,539 --> 00:45:43,219
woman in that church. And the friction you

1344
00:45:43,219 --> 00:45:44,775
get as a woman in that church, then

1345
00:45:44,775 --> 00:45:46,855
you potentially might get as a young man

1346
00:45:46,855 --> 00:45:48,054
in that church or a man in that

1347
00:45:48,054 --> 00:45:51,094
church. But, again, everybody's gonna get friction from

1348
00:45:51,094 --> 00:45:53,355
it, and it's just gonna maybe look different.

1349
00:45:53,414 --> 00:45:53,914
Okay?

1350
00:45:54,214 --> 00:45:55,514
So that being said,

1351
00:45:55,815 --> 00:45:56,954
I think that

1352
00:45:57,579 --> 00:45:59,260
knowing that the church was designed to give

1353
00:45:59,260 --> 00:46:02,380
friction, there's always opportunities for improvement or change,

1354
00:46:02,380 --> 00:46:04,539
which we already kinda talked about. And I

1355
00:46:04,539 --> 00:46:06,559
think we have to remember that

1356
00:46:06,940 --> 00:46:10,059
the change does happen. I was at a

1357
00:46:10,059 --> 00:46:12,574
lunch last week with Christine Durham. She was

1358
00:46:12,574 --> 00:46:14,574
talking about, in her life, she's seen lots

1359
00:46:14,574 --> 00:46:16,574
of changes happen. And that we have to

1360
00:46:16,574 --> 00:46:19,135
just remember change. It's a work in progress.

1361
00:46:19,135 --> 00:46:21,074
Yeah. But if we look at it as,

1362
00:46:21,375 --> 00:46:23,454
yes, it is I just think we have

1363
00:46:23,454 --> 00:46:24,894
to not we have to look at the

1364
00:46:24,894 --> 00:46:27,309
church from a perspective of, yeah, it's not

1365
00:46:27,309 --> 00:46:27,809
perfect.

1366
00:46:28,109 --> 00:46:30,210
And the people that keep saying it's perfect,

1367
00:46:30,269 --> 00:46:31,949
but run by imperfect people, I'm like, oh,

1368
00:46:31,949 --> 00:46:34,030
no. It's perfect, and it's designed to give

1369
00:46:34,030 --> 00:46:36,030
us friction. That's what it's perfect in. I

1370
00:46:36,030 --> 00:46:37,969
love it. It's always going to have friction.

1371
00:46:38,269 --> 00:46:39,710
And so if you look at it that

1372
00:46:39,710 --> 00:46:41,875
way, you can kind of just look at

1373
00:46:41,875 --> 00:46:43,635
it and go, oh, yeah. I mean, I've

1374
00:46:43,635 --> 00:46:44,775
sat in the ward councils.

1375
00:46:45,075 --> 00:46:47,155
Mhmm. Nine men, three women. I mean, that's

1376
00:46:47,155 --> 00:46:49,474
what happens. Do I think that's from a

1377
00:46:49,474 --> 00:46:52,434
business perspective when I've worked in corporations and

1378
00:46:52,434 --> 00:46:55,299
ran things? More perspectives are better. Like so

1379
00:46:55,299 --> 00:46:56,659
that's what sometimes you look at things and

1380
00:46:56,659 --> 00:46:57,940
go, oh, I could see how if we

1381
00:46:57,940 --> 00:46:59,699
were really running this as an organization where

1382
00:46:59,699 --> 00:47:01,859
we wanted the product to be successful, we

1383
00:47:01,859 --> 00:47:03,799
would might run things a little bit differently.

1384
00:47:03,940 --> 00:47:05,460
But, again, you have to step back and

1385
00:47:05,460 --> 00:47:08,179
think, are these things I'm all upset about?

1386
00:47:08,179 --> 00:47:09,960
Is that keeping me from

1387
00:47:10,514 --> 00:47:11,255
being able

1388
00:47:12,034 --> 00:47:14,355
to have a relationship with Christ and with

1389
00:47:14,355 --> 00:47:16,674
my fellow men? Like, I just kinda think

1390
00:47:16,674 --> 00:47:18,755
that's the framework to look at is, like,

1391
00:47:18,755 --> 00:47:20,434
am I able to give light to other

1392
00:47:20,434 --> 00:47:23,074
people and get light? And so if something

1393
00:47:23,074 --> 00:47:25,619
is in fractioning of that light and I'm

1394
00:47:25,700 --> 00:47:27,460
hyper focused, like, through the straw at this

1395
00:47:27,460 --> 00:47:29,380
one thing, and that's all you're focused on,

1396
00:47:29,380 --> 00:47:31,140
yeah. And and some of the things you

1397
00:47:31,140 --> 00:47:33,800
focus on are big deals, are very impactful

1398
00:47:33,940 --> 00:47:34,519
for people.

1399
00:47:34,900 --> 00:47:36,980
And I get why they're focused on them,

1400
00:47:36,980 --> 00:47:38,740
but I just wanna say sometimes we have

1401
00:47:38,740 --> 00:47:40,980
to take the good where we can Yeah.

1402
00:47:41,059 --> 00:47:43,804
And keep our relationship and learning about who

1403
00:47:43,804 --> 00:47:45,264
the savior really is in my

1404
00:47:45,565 --> 00:47:47,244
life. Yeah. I just love this message where

1405
00:47:47,244 --> 00:47:49,405
my prayer is, like, as church leaders, you

1406
00:47:49,405 --> 00:47:51,164
know, formal church leaders, we get so hyper

1407
00:47:51,164 --> 00:47:53,964
focused on, like, facilitating the church experience, rightly

1408
00:47:53,964 --> 00:47:56,239
so. But what a a beautiful experience would

1409
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:57,300
be to recognize

1410
00:47:58,159 --> 00:48:00,960
every, you know, being in the ward and

1411
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,039
saying, how can this be a a community

1412
00:48:03,039 --> 00:48:05,519
where we can come together and encourage everybody

1413
00:48:05,519 --> 00:48:07,679
through the friction of these journeys god's invited

1414
00:48:07,679 --> 00:48:09,364
us on regardless of, yeah, are we doing

1415
00:48:09,364 --> 00:48:10,724
the chili cook off this year or not?

1416
00:48:10,724 --> 00:48:12,964
You know? It's more of like, you know,

1417
00:48:12,964 --> 00:48:15,444
sister Johnson, like, you gotta hear this story.

1418
00:48:15,444 --> 00:48:17,784
Will you speak in sacrament about this frictional

1419
00:48:17,844 --> 00:48:19,605
moment and how you got through it? And

1420
00:48:19,605 --> 00:48:21,525
that's why, you know, Susie in the corner

1421
00:48:21,525 --> 00:48:23,684
and Jill should keep going and and Todd

1422
00:48:23,684 --> 00:48:25,589
even, you know, whatever it is. Like, I

1423
00:48:25,589 --> 00:48:27,029
like because when I step back and I

1424
00:48:27,029 --> 00:48:28,630
look at, like, the temple and the covenants

1425
00:48:28,630 --> 00:48:30,489
we're making there, like, that's where

1426
00:48:30,869 --> 00:48:33,349
sanctification's at. It's not like, let's run a

1427
00:48:33,349 --> 00:48:35,909
really good ward that teaches good lessons. I

1428
00:48:35,909 --> 00:48:37,289
do think people's stories

1429
00:48:37,914 --> 00:48:40,634
are relatable, but also being authentic, you end

1430
00:48:40,634 --> 00:48:43,434
up sharing sometimes we hesitate from sharing the,

1431
00:48:43,434 --> 00:48:45,994
like, really thorny, awful things. Yeah. And that's

1432
00:48:46,154 --> 00:48:48,234
when I hear people say the really thorny,

1433
00:48:48,234 --> 00:48:50,280
awful things and how they got through it,

1434
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,480
it is so like, it's just so impactful

1435
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:55,260
to me to know, okay,

1436
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,119
sister Johnson did it or brother Johnson did

1437
00:48:58,119 --> 00:49:00,280
it, and that is rough. And so how

1438
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:01,800
do I take those lessons and put them

1439
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:03,875
in my life? And I think that's, you

1440
00:49:03,875 --> 00:49:05,795
know, it's Easter week. We're recording this during

1441
00:49:05,795 --> 00:49:08,195
Easter week. And you look at Christ as

1442
00:49:08,195 --> 00:49:10,114
that way. Right? Like, that was rough. He

1443
00:49:10,114 --> 00:49:12,434
had a rough go, especially the last week.

1444
00:49:12,434 --> 00:49:13,574
What? Triumphant

1445
00:49:13,875 --> 00:49:16,150
into, you know, where we end up. And

1446
00:49:16,150 --> 00:49:16,889
I just

1447
00:49:17,269 --> 00:49:19,989
think we have to get people telling their

1448
00:49:19,989 --> 00:49:22,309
stories and the authentic stories of what was

1449
00:49:22,309 --> 00:49:24,650
hard and not and recognizing

1450
00:49:24,949 --> 00:49:27,429
it's hard. It's hard. Like, if you I

1451
00:49:27,429 --> 00:49:29,364
mean, we have a joke in my family

1452
00:49:29,364 --> 00:49:31,284
where it's like, a plus b does not

1453
00:49:31,284 --> 00:49:32,964
equal c no matter what that person said

1454
00:49:32,964 --> 00:49:35,284
in church. Like, it just because a lot

1455
00:49:35,284 --> 00:49:36,565
of times we condense it all to say

1456
00:49:36,724 --> 00:49:38,164
We want them to be a formula like

1457
00:49:38,164 --> 00:49:40,404
that. C. And you're like, no. Look around.

1458
00:49:40,404 --> 00:49:42,085
It doesn't. There's a person in a wheelchair

1459
00:49:42,085 --> 00:49:43,911
back there. They would have loved to be

1460
00:49:43,911 --> 00:49:45,701
healed, not healed. You know? Like, it doesn't

1461
00:49:45,701 --> 00:49:47,490
work that way. But I think sometimes we

1462
00:49:47,490 --> 00:49:49,279
boil it down into that, and it's it's

1463
00:49:49,279 --> 00:49:51,068
a little bit harmful to some people. Yeah.

1464
00:49:51,068 --> 00:49:52,858
And in a parallel universe where it does

1465
00:49:52,858 --> 00:49:54,647
work that way, I think we would really

1466
00:49:54,647 --> 00:49:56,614
be we wouldn't enjoy it as much. There

1467
00:49:56,695 --> 00:49:58,454
there's no growth there. Right? It's like There's

1468
00:49:58,454 --> 00:50:00,135
no friction and no growth, which we came

1469
00:50:00,135 --> 00:50:00,635
here

1470
00:50:00,934 --> 00:50:02,315
for the friction, sadly.

1471
00:50:02,614 --> 00:50:04,934
Every time I'm in a friction situation, I'm

1472
00:50:04,934 --> 00:50:06,295
super mad and I want it to go

1473
00:50:06,295 --> 00:50:08,454
away. And I tend to get the answer

1474
00:50:08,454 --> 00:50:10,454
of like, well, you could have picked Satan's

1475
00:50:10,454 --> 00:50:13,199
plan. Yeah. None of this. Right. And I

1476
00:50:13,199 --> 00:50:15,119
think to myself, yeah, that would have maybe

1477
00:50:15,119 --> 00:50:16,960
been a better idea to pick that way.

1478
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:17,920
You know, when you're in the middle of

1479
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:20,640
it. Yeah. Yeah. Give us, one more story,

1480
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:22,000
and then I'll give you one more question.

1481
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:24,000
So Is it gonna be another question about

1482
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:25,300
equality Yes. Reframed?

1483
00:50:25,775 --> 00:50:27,454
Why what's up for these feminists? I mean,

1484
00:50:27,454 --> 00:50:28,195
come on.

1485
00:50:29,614 --> 00:50:30,515
Let me think

1486
00:50:31,055 --> 00:50:33,795
whose story there's a woman I interviewed.

1487
00:50:34,574 --> 00:50:35,074
She

1488
00:50:35,454 --> 00:50:38,114
works for for the Pan American

1489
00:50:38,969 --> 00:50:40,889
Health Organization, which is under the UN. She

1490
00:50:40,889 --> 00:50:43,289
immigrated from South America, joined the church right

1491
00:50:43,289 --> 00:50:44,269
before she immigrated,

1492
00:50:44,650 --> 00:50:45,150
and,

1493
00:50:45,609 --> 00:50:47,230
got there in the mid sixties

1494
00:50:47,530 --> 00:50:49,769
and had a long career as an executive

1495
00:50:49,769 --> 00:50:50,269
there.

1496
00:50:50,730 --> 00:50:51,230
And

1497
00:50:51,530 --> 00:50:53,130
she had a lot of friction when it

1498
00:50:53,130 --> 00:50:54,030
came to, like,

1499
00:50:54,465 --> 00:50:55,985
being in a you know, it was a

1500
00:50:55,985 --> 00:50:56,724
white church.

1501
00:50:57,505 --> 00:50:58,644
Like, sadly, white church.

1502
00:50:59,025 --> 00:51:00,945
You know? And there that caused different things

1503
00:51:00,945 --> 00:51:01,925
for different people.

1504
00:51:02,224 --> 00:51:04,885
And she just stayed in, was a leader,

1505
00:51:05,025 --> 00:51:06,864
but the thing that was so amazing. And

1506
00:51:06,864 --> 00:51:09,345
she obviously got friction for having this career

1507
00:51:09,345 --> 00:51:11,869
and having other people watch her kids and,

1508
00:51:11,869 --> 00:51:13,470
you know, all that stuff. All that went

1509
00:51:13,470 --> 00:51:14,849
down. And yet,

1510
00:51:15,230 --> 00:51:17,809
what she spent her time doing was

1511
00:51:18,190 --> 00:51:19,490
she's helped thousands

1512
00:51:19,950 --> 00:51:21,809
of Hispanic youth get to college.

1513
00:51:22,155 --> 00:51:23,695
She spent her life

1514
00:51:24,235 --> 00:51:25,215
helping people

1515
00:51:25,675 --> 00:51:27,535
try and realize their best potential,

1516
00:51:27,914 --> 00:51:30,394
and she really focused on these experiences she

1517
00:51:30,394 --> 00:51:32,474
had with god. And she had some health

1518
00:51:32,474 --> 00:51:33,695
challenges and scares

1519
00:51:34,010 --> 00:51:35,609
throughout her life. So not just the end

1520
00:51:35,609 --> 00:51:37,210
of life. You know? I'm older now, so

1521
00:51:37,210 --> 00:51:38,650
that's gonna happen to me. But throughout her

1522
00:51:38,650 --> 00:51:41,309
life, it really brought her to Christ

1523
00:51:41,690 --> 00:51:44,089
and really focused her on that and how

1524
00:51:44,089 --> 00:51:45,150
to help other people.

1525
00:51:45,449 --> 00:51:47,769
And she didn't focus on this other stuff

1526
00:51:47,769 --> 00:51:49,434
that was going on. Like, hey. You shouldn't

1527
00:51:49,434 --> 00:51:51,914
be working or, hey. You know, you're in

1528
00:51:51,914 --> 00:51:53,835
a white church. Like, she didn't focus on

1529
00:51:53,835 --> 00:51:55,594
any of that. She focused on the savior

1530
00:51:55,594 --> 00:51:57,114
and helping other people. And I just thought

1531
00:51:57,114 --> 00:51:59,375
that was so beautiful to get her perspective

1532
00:51:59,914 --> 00:52:01,934
on, you know, being in a white church

1533
00:52:02,074 --> 00:52:05,160
early days from a different culture. Love it.

1534
00:52:05,219 --> 00:52:07,460
So last question. Well, say I know it's

1535
00:52:07,460 --> 00:52:09,140
gonna be on equality. No. I won't touch

1536
00:52:09,140 --> 00:52:11,460
equality. I'm done. The horse is dead. I

1537
00:52:11,460 --> 00:52:12,360
beat it.

1538
00:52:12,739 --> 00:52:14,340
If if people wanna get this book I

1539
00:52:14,340 --> 00:52:16,500
mean, obviously, Amazon or if people wanna learn

1540
00:52:16,500 --> 00:52:18,105
more about your work or Yeah. So it's

1541
00:52:18,344 --> 00:52:19,164
BCC Press

1542
00:52:19,545 --> 00:52:22,204
published it. It's called Using Friction to Grow,

1543
00:52:22,425 --> 00:52:23,565
and it's on Amazon.

1544
00:52:23,864 --> 00:52:24,844
Love it. Awesome.

1545
00:52:25,224 --> 00:52:27,244
Last question for you is,

1546
00:52:27,625 --> 00:52:29,465
just going through this journey of writing this

1547
00:52:29,465 --> 00:52:31,250
book and reflecting on the lives of all

1548
00:52:31,250 --> 00:52:33,409
these women's all these women, how has that

1549
00:52:33,409 --> 00:52:35,489
helped you become a better disciple and follower

1550
00:52:35,489 --> 00:52:36,389
of Jesus Christ?

1551
00:52:36,849 --> 00:52:38,690
I mean, I I can't even count the

1552
00:52:38,690 --> 00:52:40,789
ways. It is so inspiring

1553
00:52:41,650 --> 00:52:44,389
to me to sit down with these women

1554
00:52:44,449 --> 00:52:44,949
that

1555
00:52:45,305 --> 00:52:46,985
have lots of things happen in their lives

1556
00:52:46,985 --> 00:52:48,905
that were hard. I mean, I didn't talk

1557
00:52:48,905 --> 00:52:50,765
about it, but, like, those women,

1558
00:52:51,305 --> 00:52:51,805
actually,

1559
00:52:52,265 --> 00:52:53,405
they were in the church

1560
00:52:53,704 --> 00:52:56,025
and grew up and were in their twenties

1561
00:52:56,025 --> 00:52:59,405
when, actually, the women relief society ran everything.

1562
00:52:59,465 --> 00:53:01,280
Like, the relief society had the wheat fund.

1563
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:03,760
Relief side of social services. Relief society I

1564
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:05,119
mean, you name it. They did it. They

1565
00:53:05,119 --> 00:53:06,320
had their own curriculum. They had their own

1566
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:06,820
magazine.

1567
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:09,139
And then right as

1568
00:53:09,679 --> 00:53:11,519
when the women's thing kinda came out, just

1569
00:53:11,519 --> 00:53:14,639
an unintended consequences, the church decided to correlate

1570
00:53:14,639 --> 00:53:17,095
everything and took everything away Mhmm. From the

1571
00:53:17,095 --> 00:53:18,454
women that they were in charge of, and

1572
00:53:18,454 --> 00:53:19,994
they were left with visiting teaching.

1573
00:53:20,295 --> 00:53:22,614
So not only did these women live through

1574
00:53:22,614 --> 00:53:24,454
that, they had blacks and priests did that

1575
00:53:24,454 --> 00:53:26,614
and then this women's issue. And just sitting

1576
00:53:26,614 --> 00:53:27,960
down across from them and

1577
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:28,940
realizing,

1578
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:31,639
wow, whatever they went through so much more

1579
00:53:31,639 --> 00:53:33,579
difficult than what I've had to go through.

1580
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:36,059
And knowing that they were able to stay

1581
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:38,599
with Christ through that and understanding that from

1582
00:53:38,599 --> 00:53:39,579
them was just

1583
00:53:40,055 --> 00:53:43,355
so incredibly powerful to me that I felt

1584
00:53:43,494 --> 00:53:45,335
like I just was so lucky I got

1585
00:53:45,335 --> 00:53:47,735
to even meet them. It has really impacted

1586
00:53:47,735 --> 00:53:49,815
my life for the good. It also helped

1587
00:53:49,815 --> 00:53:51,655
me focus on, like, don't worry about the

1588
00:53:51,655 --> 00:53:53,869
things that I'm like, that doesn't seem very

1589
00:53:53,869 --> 00:53:54,369
effective.

1590
00:53:54,670 --> 00:53:57,630
Don't worry about those. Worry about my relationship

1591
00:53:57,630 --> 00:53:58,450
with Christ.

1592
00:54:05,114 --> 00:54:07,514
The end. That's it for this leading saints

1593
00:54:07,514 --> 00:54:09,594
episode. I encourage you to check out some

1594
00:54:09,594 --> 00:54:11,675
of the most popular episodes of the podcast

1595
00:54:11,675 --> 00:54:13,275
that we list at the bottom of the

1596
00:54:13,275 --> 00:54:15,275
show notes. If you haven't listened to all

1597
00:54:15,275 --> 00:54:16,974
of those, do so now.

1598
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:28,980
It came as a result of the position

1599
00:54:29,039 --> 00:54:31,940
of leadership which was imposed upon us

1600
00:54:32,424 --> 00:54:34,444
by the God of heaven, who brought

1601
00:54:34,744 --> 00:54:38,045
forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus

1602
00:54:38,264 --> 00:54:38,764
Christ.

1603
00:54:39,385 --> 00:54:40,364
When the declaration

1604
00:54:40,744 --> 00:54:43,085
was made concerning the only

1605
00:54:43,784 --> 00:54:46,184
true and living Church upon the face of

1606
00:54:46,184 --> 00:54:46,860
the earth,

1607
00:54:47,420 --> 00:54:50,079
We were immediately put in a position of

1608
00:54:50,220 --> 00:54:50,720
loneliness,

1609
00:54:51,099 --> 00:54:52,640
the loneliness of leadership

1610
00:54:53,340 --> 00:54:56,320
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,

1611
00:54:57,099 --> 00:54:59,500
and to which we must face up with

1612
00:54:59,500 --> 00:55:01,039
boldness and courage

1613
00:55:01,579 --> 00:55:02,400
and ability.