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Welcome. You're gonna love it.
So in the church of Jesus Christ of
Latter day Saints, we have a long history
of ministering or home teaching
or block teaching or of the many other
names that this ministering effort has had over
the years, and we've which has been phenomenal.
It's a beautiful tradition, an institution within the
institution
of encouraging our members to connect with maybe
individuals they don't know in their ward and
minister to them, check up on them, you
know, as the Doctrine and Covenants encourages us
to do to pray with them in their
home. Right? And so I was excited. This
is a long time coming. Finally got connected
and arranged an interview with the mister ministering
himself, I'd like to call him. Steve Weber
wrote the book Home Ministering,
the Process of Perfecting the Saints, and I
wanted to get him in the studio and
just talk about this effort of where I
know so many elders corn presidents, release site
presidents, or awards in general
struggle with their effort or motivating others to
do this work. And so Steve gives a
phenomenal perspective that, we all should know and
learn and obviously talks about the resources out
there as he champions the effort of ministering.
So share this with your elders' court president,
your bishop, your elite society president. Let's jump
into it. Here's my interview with Steve Weber
all about ministry.
Alright. Steve Webber, welcome to the Leading Saints
podcast. Excited to be here. Yeah. This is
a this is a long time coming. You
know, I came across I think it was
around the time
when, you know, the church officially moved from
home teaching
to ministering,
and, your book started popping up places. And
I was like, oh, I'm glad to see
someone else's putting some thoughts and ideas out
there around church leadership, but more specifically about
ministering. And Right. So and that how when
did you write that book?
So I wrote the first book back in
2015,
kind of got the prompting to to write
it back in 2005.
But, you know, sometimes it takes us longer
to get around to what we're supposed to
be doing. That would be the most important.
Yeah. Yeah. It only took a decade. And
so
in 2015, I finished the book. And then
if you'd like, I can explain a little
bit behind the book because it kinda goes
behind the scenes of the whole ministering
process or the process of of coming to
ministering in the church. But in 2015,
which is about three years before ministering
came to be, I wrote a book called
Shepherds of the Elevating
Home and Visiting Teachers to Home Ministers.
So I was kind of going on a
limb putting that in the title. And the
reason I did that is because
a lot of the language in the book
centered around
de emphasizing the lesson and focusing more on
taking care of the family, taking care of
the the people that we were assigned to
in a better way than we had been
doing before because we were so focused
on that lesson, so focused on on giving
that first presidency message that we were kind
of forgetting about the real responsibility, which is
helping the family.
So
to protect myself a little bit,
I called the priesthood department. I said, will
you take a look at this thing so
that I I don't get a phone call
from my stake president in a couple of
weeks and find out that And you were
were you a bishop at this time? Or
When I got the prompting to do it,
I was a bishop. I I started serving
in 2004 to 2010. And so we had
kind of implemented
this idea of ministering in my ward. And
in January
2005,
we implemented. I got up in at the
the pulpit on the first Sunday after fast
Sunday and kinda started with a New Year's
resolution and challenged the ward to to make
some changes. And I can talk about that
in just a second, but So you were
like the ministering pilot without knowing you were
the ministering pilot,
You know, the spirit's been working on me
for about thirty years. I've been put in
different callings
along the way that have been primarily focused
on ministering. So the spirit's
been kind of working through me for a
long time trying to help me better understand
it. And I
I look back over the years and say,
okay. That makes sense. But when I called
the church and talked to the priesthood department,
there was a great guy up there. I'll
I'll even drop his name. It's Jeff Orr.
He was working up there at the priesthood
department, and I said, I've written a book.
I wanna kinda make sure that I'm I'm
working in the the the right direction. And
Yeah. And he said, so well, send me
the PDF. And so
the very next day, I get a call
and he said, will you come up and
talk to us at at church headquarters? Will
you come up and meet with a few
of us? And
I said, is this a good meeting or
a bad meeting? Am I in trouble? In
trouble. He said, no. No. No. Come on
up. I said, well, have you had a
chance to take a look at the book?
And he said, I I've read it three
times. Oh, wow. I was shocked. I said,
wow. Okay. Well, that's great. And so I
went up there and
I met with these three guys, and he
said, are you willing to take a little
advice? Will you,
will you take some, suggestions? And I said,
absolutely. I mean, that's why I'm here is
to make sure that I'm in line with
what the church wants to do. And he
said, will you take the words always and
never out of the book? And I said,
absolutely. I said, I said, that makes sense.
He goes, and this is probably important for
your listeners to remember. Yeah. He said, there's
never an always in ministry. And that's those
are I actually put that into the second
book because it's so profound.
Everybody's situation is different. Everybody's
I mean, your stuff is different than my
stuff, and my stuff is different than the
families that I minister to. And I always
say everybody's got stuff, and you can just
plug in whatever word you want into there
for stuff. But everybody this is mortality, and
we've all got challenges that keep us up
at night. And
so, anyways, when he said there's never an
always in ministry, and I just I felt
that was very profound and very inspired. So
Yeah. And did you feel like I'm curious
when you got that feedback. I mean, I
think as we write books, you know, I've
written books to where it's get going and
you don't realize you're using these Absolutely. Words
or you're you're overstating things or, you know,
but not because it should be overstated, but
that's kinda we talk in hyperbole. You know?
Right. And so did you was that hard
to remove those always and nevers? It was
I only had it in there a few
times, and, you know, and I had kind
of alluded to that in the book that,
you know, hey. There are times when a
a lesson is really important. They had this
family really needs a pick me up. It
needs some inspiration. And so a lesson,
you know, and back then we were using
the first presidency message as a default.
But, you know, you always go in there
trying to personalize a lesson for the family
that that for the things that they're going
through. And a lot of cases, a lesson
is very important. In fact, Alma says that
the, you know, the word of God is
more
motivating than the the sword. And so he
can get us off dead center in ways
that anything else can't, just bearing testimony of
of gospel truths.
But when people say you always have to
give a lesson or you always have to
do this or you always have to do
that, well, that's not the Lord's way because
everybody's situation is different. So Yeah. Especially in
a international church. Right? And and this is,
this is a principle that I've really tried
to navigate, you know, creating this platform, Leading
Saints and putting content out there is I
never
want to put out, like, this is the
norm. This is how you should everybody should
do it, you know. Right. When in reality,
it's like we're just sharing one person's experience
and there's different nuances and cultural norms or
the way geographics or whatever. And, that's why
sometimes I disagree with the guests I have
on to some extent, and and sometimes I'm
like, yeah. I really think they should always
do that. But in reality,
that's, and you can tell that in the
handbook. They try they I'd be surprised if
you can find those two words. Right? They
dialed back the handbook dramatically. They they took
a lot of the guardrails
off of what we used to know as
home teaching Yep. Even though much of what
we were doing in home teaching is still
the norm. I mean, you say
the norm. There is a norm. There is
kind of a a framework for what we
should be doing. But then once we get
in there,
everything is based on what the needs of
the family are. And when you look back
at the talks that they've given since the
introduction of ministry, you can still see that
norm coming through where
president Holland was saying a visit's still important,
but there are situations where you might not
be able be able to make a, a
visit where there's distance involved or you have
three active priesthood holders and you have, you
know, 500 inactive members. Clearly, you're not gonna
be able to make a visit to every
home every month. And safety, we can talk
a little bit about that, but that's a
serious issue in a lot of cases where
you you might have a sister
that has is in an abusive relationship,
and it would just cause grief between her
and her husband if two men came in
and home taught her or two women came
in and and had a visit with her.
I mean, it may not be a safety
issue for you, but it may be for
the sister that has to deal with the
aftermath.
So we have to make adjustments where needed.
And that's what president Holland was trying to
talk about in his talk. But the second
thing that they said when I was up
there, which is important,
and again, I think it goes to
understanding better what was going on behind the
scenes before
ministering was unveiled. And again, remember this is
2015.
This is in the 2015.
Jeff goes,
where did you get the word ministering?
And I said, well,
we were talking about that. We were using
that terminology when I was bishop because, again,
I wanted to deemphasize
lesson, lesson, lesson and talk about service, service,
service.
And he I said, why do you have
sounds like you've got a problem with that
word. I can take that out if you
want me to, but I'd prefer not to.
Yeah. And he said, no. I'm okay with
it. I said, it sounds like you've got
a problem with that. And he said, no.
He said, I'll let you in on something
that's been going on. And so he explained
that they had been in committee for ten
years. So I got prompted to write this
book in 2005.
2005 is when they started the committee to
try to determine how to change home and
visiting teaching,
how to revert back to its original purpose,
which was to bear one another's burdens and
to nourish with the good word of God
and do the things that we were supposed
to be doing all along, but we'd kinda
shifted. We'd kind of overemphasized
the lesson and de emphasized
service. And he said, we've been in committee
for ten years trying to figure out how
to change this. And he said, ironically, three
weeks ago before you came in here, we
disbanded the committee. We had so many personalities
and so many different ideas
that we couldn't come to a consensus on
what we should be doing, how we should
be changing home and visiting teaching, so we
disbanded the committee. And he said he goes,
it's just kind of funny that you come
in here with a book and start talking
about ministry. And I said, so you just
don't want me to beat you to the
punch? And he said, no. He goes, actually,
this will create a fire and help us
get this rolling. He said, no. I want
you to get out there ahead of us
us and and get this book out there.
Now that was the original version of the
book. And
Deseret book, when I took it to them
to publish it, they said, nope.
We will not publish a book on home
teaching.
And,
Not a best seller. They said it is
not marketable.
They said you you can't sell a book
on home and visiting teaching. And I said,
well, what if I go publish it myself?
And they said, nope. We're not even gonna
give you your shelf space. And the shelf
space is too valuable. You'll never sell a
book on home teaching.
So I had to go off and find,
I did it through Amazon and and, published
myself. And then, you know, I the funny
thing is once it got out there, I
was selling books by the case
all over the world to stakes and wards
that were flailing for information. Yeah. I mean,
they just were dying on the vine with
regard to home and visiting teaching. You know,
somebody would buy the book and they'd hand
hand it to their bishop and their bishop
would buy 10 books, then hand one to
a stake president. The stake president would call
and get a case of books and, and
it just was, I was selling them by
the case. And it was fun to watch
the excitement happen. Now, when I say buy,
sell them by the case, I don't make
any money on this book. I priced it
so low. And this is another reason that
Deseret Book didn't want it. I priced it
so low. There was no margin in there
for profit. I I'm just trying to get
the word out. My goal is not to
make money on this thing. My goal is
to help energize people about this and have
the success
that we did in our ward. Our ward
was just doing so well
with in every aspect
of what we were doing, and it all
came back to ministering. It all came back
to what we were doing in the homes
of the families,
and our sacrament meeting attendance went up. And
our members within,
my our endowed members with Temple Recommends numbers
went up, and our attendance in second and
third hours went up. And, you know, I
I see discussions on your board about how
do we motivate people to come to second
hour. Well,
we minister. I mean, that's we get these
people excited about church and coming back, and
then it's just it's been a great experience.
So
Yeah. So take me back to
those first few years of of Bishop Weber's
time of, like, the promptings and the things
you were trying
and what inspiration came and how did it
start that you're kind of trying to refocus
or reframe home teaching back then? So it
kind of started even before then. I I
was called as an elders quorum president in
Provo
And before I was called, the general authority
came through and gave an apostolic blessing to
the the the leadership and the stake and
and promised them if they would do their
home teaching interviews every month, they would see
their their home teaching
increase. And when I say increase, we were
all in about the 40%
range down in Provo
back in the late eighties and Which sounds
above average at the time, I wanna say.
It was Provo. It was, you know, I
mean, it was
right there at BYU. We should be doing
a little bit better. And and so, anyways,
we were in the 40% range, and he
said, I promise you that if you will
do your home teaching interviews just to the
elders quorum presidents,
your home teaching will go up in the
eighties and stay there as long as you
keep doing that. And
so that was before I was called. But
as soon two months later, I was called
and the member of the state presidency said,
will you do this? And I said, absolutely.
And a couple months later, we had our
first elders quorum training.
And, you know, this is back in the
days when you had these reports and it
showed everybody and how they were doing against
the other wards in the stake. And we
were at 85%,
and the rest of the wards were in
the forties. And the member of the stake
presidency said, what are you guys doing in
that ward?
What you told me to do, I'm doing
our our home teaching interviews. And he goes,
oh, I forgot. He goes, yes. You guys,
all the rest of you guys do it.
So I I carried that forward
into my next ward, and I was the
high priest group leader there. We did that,
and we saw a lot of success, the
same kind of success. But when I became
bishop that first
January,
that second Sunday after the first Sunday after
fast Sunday, I got up and I basically
asked the ward to do something that we'd
never really done before,
kind of a New Year's resolution for the
ward. And I said, I want you guys
to quit asking the question,
what can I do for you this month?
I don't want you to go into anybody's
home and ask, what can I do for
you this month? I want you to change
everything. And I said, I want everybody in
the ward, I'm saying this from the pulpit,
I want everybody in the ward in the
next week or two to go into the
homes of the people that you home and
visit teach and ask this question.
What can I be praying for you this
month? What can I be praying for is
a different question than what can I be
doing for you? Because when you ask what
can I be doing for you, everybody says
nothing? I'm good. Yeah. But when you ask
what can I be praying for? What are
you praying for at night, Kurt?
What are you praying for
right now that I can add my prayers
to? And I asked them to do that
to every single member of that family that
they minister to. And
so
ask mom and dad and the kids, and
all of a sudden you've got a you've
got a list of things to be praying
for. And I said, and now I want
to ask everybody in this, in the congregation
to expect that question. So I want you
to get an answer ready. So when these
guys come and ask, what can I be
praying for? You're ready. You're ready with an
answer. So that did two things. Number one,
it got everybody motivated to go do it.
And it also
encouraged people who weren't letting their ministering brothers
or home and visiting teachers at that time
into their homes. They would always say, no,
we're good. You don't need to come visit
us. Now they were
encouraged to open up their doors and let
somebody come and visit them. Wherever there's a
giver, there has to be a receiver. You
have to have somebody that's willing to let
you in if you're going to be able
to do this ministry.
And
within a couple of months, our sacrament, meaning
attendance went to from 60% to 85%. And
it just, all the numbers just started jacking
up. And that's just because people started feeling
noticed and people started feeling loved. And when
somebody came back to church,
somebody was waiting for them there
to welcome them. And it was less of
a an ordeal, less of a big deal
for somebody to come back to church and
and participate.
Just a a great experience, but that changed
everything, that one question. And if,
bishops out there or stake presidents wanna jump
start ministry in their ward, all they have
to do is encourage
their families,
their home and visiting teachers, which are ministry
brothers and ministry sisters now, to ask that
one question. If we start there,
it'll change everything. And I had a guy
come up. I think I told you this
already. Had a guy come up to me
right after I made that announcement in church,
and sheepishly, he said, I've never even done
that for my own family.
He goes, I'm embarrassed to say I've never
even asked my own kids what I should
be praying for today for them. And it
it really it made everybody's
prayers last longer.
When I tried that before I invited everybody
else to try that, I tried that myself,
and
the spirit
immediately said, absolutely.
I'll help you bless that person,
but you're gonna help me help them in
this way. And when I asked about the
second person,
the same thing happened. I realized really quickly
that I needed to have a piece of
paper and a pencil with me when I
was praying because the Lord was giving me
an action list of things that I needed
to do. And all of a sudden, there
was lots of things that I could do
to serve that family. Lots. And so That's
awesome. It was a great experience. I love
just this model that can be applied across
the board. And and it's just an example
of great leadership of we sometimes want people
to do something, you know, an action, whether
it's, you know, visit a home or go
to the temple or even stand and bear
a testimony during a, you know, a fastened
testimony meeting. And we kind of just throw
the the expectation out there. But to give
them, like, something to go off of saying,
like, okay. You maybe you are willing to
go visit, but it feels awkward or whatever.
But here's a question you can ask. So
just ask this question, and suddenly, it empowers
people
with a tactic. You know? Okay. I I
can go over that person's house, and, you
know, we'll shoot the breeze for a minute,
and then I'll ask the question. And then,
you know, it's a simple way to just
empower people to do the things that they
wanna do. They just maybe don't know how
to do it. I think that that's a
real
issue right now in the church. You know,
there's there's a lot of people these days
that want this relationship to be organic.
They want it to be a natural
thing, and they it's hard for them to
overcome the awkwardness
of that first visit when they're going into
the home of somebody they've never met before
or they really don't know that well. I've
heard people say, we really should be assigned
to people that we're friendly with, that we
know, and it'd be so much easier.
But the problem is that you have certain
gifts and talents that the Lord knows you
have. And the family across the street
might not necessarily need that specific gift or
talent, but that family two blocks away or,
in many cases, two miles away or or
much farther,
they need exactly
what Kirk Francom
is already
pre built with. You're prepackaged with these gifts
and these talents, and the lord has done
that. The lord has prepackaged you to help
that person that's three miles away from you
and help them through this crisis that you
don't know about and that your bishop might
not even know about, but the Lord knows
about, and he knows who you are, and
he'll
if our elders quorum presidents are
prayerfully considering these these assignments and our relief
society presidents are prayerfully considering these assignments,
miracles can happen and problems can
be helped and fixed so easily because the
Lord has already prepackaged
these ministering brothers and sisters with exactly what
they need to serve these people that they're
assigned to. So It's powerful. It is. And,
you know, we kinda I mean, there's, you
know, when I think about taking a system
and dialing in the system to be very
highly functional, sometimes we can skip over some
of these more
spiritual connections, you know, we're because we're hyper
focused on just making it high you know,
highly efficient.
Right? Right. But it's, sometimes when we pause
and really consider some of these things, you
know, you you may find those miracles buried
there that you that would have never come
to the surface without, you know, being thoughtful
and pondering over some of these assignments and
things. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Any other you know,
you mentioned this question.
Any other, like, tactic or
way that someone can feel more comfortable ministering
to somebody or even just visiting somebody that
that you'd recommend?
That's a great question.
In fact, let me tell you a quick
story that's not gonna make me look very
good. Okay. I I
most of my bad stories relate to me.
So anyways,
I got active about three months before I
went on my mission. My Bishop, challenged me
as an inactive,
18 year old to get my life in
order and go on a mission.
And so
I said no. I I laughed at him
and said, no. I'm not gonna go on
a mission. And then I had a very
powerful ALMA like experience, and I knew I
needed to go on a mission. Before I
knew that the gospel was true, before I'd
read the book of Mormon, I knew I
needed to go on a mission. That's cool.
So I was when I got out there,
I had a little bit of a chip
on my shoulder. I still wasn't mister compliant,
and I was still struggling with rules and
and compliance and all that. So the third
mission campaign I had told the mission president,
this guy needs an attitude adjustment. And,
the attitude adjustment was an elder down in,
Altea,
Spain. And I got down there,
and I told him years later, I didn't
like the way he walked, the way he
talked, or the way he chewed his food.
I didn't like anything.
I had some of those companions. Alright. And
so
about a week into this, the mission president
sent the assistants down to see if we'd
killed each other yet. And so
the assistant that came down and took me
out on a split, his name's Kevin Doman.
And, he's the brother of Brandon Doman. He's,
the older brother. He,
was mister
happy and such a I mean,
everything about this guy was just sunshine and
roses. He always saw the positive in everything.
And and here I am looking at all
the negative and everything.
And and, we went on a split and
I said, get me out of here. I'm
going home if you don't, you know, make
a change. And he said, nah, elder, you're
not going anywhere.
And he said, hey, do this. He said,
I promise you, you're going to love this
guy. And by the end of the month,
if you would just do this one thing,
he said, if you'll just go in
and go back to the apartment and do
something nice for him every single day, just
shine his shoes, make him breakfast, take out
the trash for him, make his bed, do
something nice for him every day. He said,
and pray for him every day. That's kinda
where I got this pray every day for
your ministry and families.
He goes, if you'll just do something nice
for him every day, then I promise you
by the end of the month, you're gonna
love this guy. You're not gonna wanna be
moved. And I said, there's no way this
is gonna happen, but I will do what
you've asked me to do. And by the
end of the month, and I'm gonna get
teary eyed talking about this,
by the end of the month, we were
best friends, and I didn't wanna be separated.
I didn't wanna be transferred. We got transferred,
unfortunately,
but to this day, forty years later, I'm
still really, really good friends with this guy.
And all it started with was just doing
something nice for him every day. So I'm
going to say this, and this is what
I came away from that month and for
the rest of my life. It changed my
life.
That if you can learn how to serve
like Jesus serves,
if you serve like Jesus,
you're gonna love like Jesus. And if you
love like Jesus, you're gonna become like Jesus.
It's that simple.
The purpose of home teaching,
visiting teaching, ward teaching, block teaching, and now
ministering
is the exact same thing as it's always
been. It's been to help you become like
the savior.
And President Benson, back in 1987,
gave a talk called the To the Home
Teachers of the Church. Now, this applies to
visiting teachers. This applies to ministering brothers and
ministering sisters. But he said
that if this is done properly,
if we do this the way it was
intended to be done,
that it can spiritually renew the church and
exalt its individual members and families. Now,
how does ministering
exalt families,
exalt individuals?
How can it spiritually renew us?
I am a different person because I learned
how to serve through hate.
And because I served through that, if, if
I can love somebody, I
actually couldn't stand.
How can a ministering brother or sister not
start loving somebody that they're praying for every
day?
Start there.
Start with a prayer every day, and then
have it work into whatever else the lord's
telling you to do. If we look at
this as a way for us to become
like the savior,
and then on the flip side, if people
will recognize that they can develop the Christ
like attribute of of humility by letting people
come into their homes
and sharing the things that are struggling with,
boy, you develop that Christ like attribute of
humility and the Christ like attribute of charity
through ministering,
you guys are halfway home. I mean, what's
keeping us out of the celestial kingdom when
we when we develop
these Christ like attributes?
Yeah. Ministry
can exalt its individual members and families because
we're serving one another, we're becoming like Christ,
and we are
we're moving saints from third Nephi saints to
fourth Nephi saints
by becoming one, by becoming a little Zion
in our ward.
And, when everybody is looking out for everybody
and no one's falling through the cracks because
everybody is magnifying their little assignment,
then all of a sudden we've
got a incredible experience happening. Yeah. Is there
anything else that comes to mind as far
as the on that receiving of the ministering
brothers or sisters? I mean, it's kinda one
of those things. You know, I remember
even as now as an elders court president
or as as a Bishop before, just sort
of being like, would you let people serve
you? Like, come on, like, just do it.
Like, and so you you kind of maybe
it can be too
tyrannical on that point. Like, you just, you
know, you just gotta let them receive, you
know,
let them serve you. Is there anything else
that comes to mind with how to,
you know, encourage people to receive the the
ministering brothers and sisters?
Yes. I'm gonna tell you a couple of
other stories that are family related.
My dad
was inactive
from the age of 18 to 60 or
78.
He
didn't want anybody to come over. He didn't
want any help. He didn't want anything.
He was always a member of
of the church. He never took his name
off the records, but he didn't want any
contact with the church.
And yet he had
a very resilient
and,
very
determined
ministering brother back in the day
who kept showing up and just kept, you
know, knocking on the door every once in
a while and saying, hey, I'm here for
you if you need anything. Here's a little
this or here's a little that or here's
a thought.
And one day, my stepmother, who wasn't a
member of the church at that time, had
just been diagnosed with cancer.
And she opened up the door
and he said, I'm
your home teacher. Just wanted to, you know,
say hi and see if there's anything that
we could be doing for you this month.
And she started crying and she said, I've
just been diagnosed with cancer.
And my stepson,
gives blessings. Do you give blessings? She didn't
know anything about the church. And he said,
yes. And and, she goes, will you come
back tonight when my husband's here? And
though he didn't let anybody in for sixty
years,
when he needed somebody, he let him in.
And I don't know whether that says more
about the determination and the love that this
home teacher had for them, or whether they
finally
had a need and finally opened up,
I wouldn't
recommend to anybody that they let it go
that long because the Lord always has a
way of humbling us and getting us to
the point where we're we're open to his
help, if that makes any sense at all.
Eventually, the Lord's gonna humble us enough to
the point where we're gonna need his help.
And thank goodness there was somebody there that
was ready to help them when they needed
it. But I have a sister, the same
sort of thing happened. She would never let
her home teacher in. And, she knows I
I tell this story all the time. She
is. So she's okay with this story. But
the guy was just the the most wonderful
guy and he showed up every single month.
She never let him in, but it was
always on the porch. He got to know
her kids, her kids' birthdays. He'd always bring
something over for each one of them and
knew more about their kids probably than, you
know, I knew about her kids because he
was showing up every month. But then she
was diagnosed with cancer, and she reached out
to me and said, what do I do?
And I said, well, why don't we call
your bishop and and get him over there
to give you a blessing? And she goes,
how about the guy that used to home
teach me that's moved away? She she goes,
can you track him down?
I said, probably. So I called her bishop,
and I and we tracked this guy down
who'd moved out of the ward. And he
came back. I don't know how far he
came back, but I know he was he
moved miles and miles away. But he came
back and gave her a blessing with the
bishop,
and she had a miraculous
recovery and is cancer free. And
all because, again,
she felt the love of this diligent,
persistent,
determined
ministering brother, and
she was humble enough to ask for help
when she needed it, and
he was there for her. President Kimball once
said, I have no more right to inspiration,
and I have no more authority
than the home teachers that are assigned to
that ward that family, I should say.
He said the home teachers have more the
same authority and more right to inspiration than
I do for the their assigned families. And
so when we realize that as people who
are
people who are receiving the visit, all of
a sudden we're going to realize, boy, those
people are really important in our lives. And
like I said, knowing that the Lord's prepackaged
them
to be your ministering brother, ministering sister, makes
it even more,
I don't know, motivating
to invite them into your life and let
them
help pray for you. Put put yourself on
their little prayer room. Am I making any
sense or am I just rambling?
No. That's great. I love the stories and
and the principles that come out of it.
This is this is fantastic.
I I wanted to ask, like, since the
change
from home teaching, visiting teaching to ministering, you
know, these are tough cultural shifts to create
in in an international church and my heart
just aches for our, you know, the core
of the 12, the general authorities who are
trying to sort of implement this and adjust
with the growing church and international church. And
and so they can make the shift into
ministering and suddenly think, oh, this is totally
different or it's a higher, holier way or,
you know, sometimes then or it's maybe
new excuses come up or more reasons to
not connect with people. What what have you
seen just in that change over the last
few years and where we're at now that
would be worth mentioning to help us kinda
reengage and
reconnect with what the the core desire was
in this, shift in the program?
It's hard for people to grasp this, but
ministering is home teaching and visiting teaching
in a higher and holier way. It's as
simple as that. We're trying to reinvent the
wheel. We're trying to do something different. But
if we go back to Doctrine and Covenants
20, it's all spelled out there for us.
And if you
think about it, Doctrine and Covenants 20 was
revealed before the church was organized.
The Lord laid out his plan for this
type of ministering
back in 1829,
and we've just keep sliding away. And, you
know, back in 1963
when they
established when they went from ward teaching to
home teaching,
president Romney was talking about
how we had gotten away from this idea
of being a guardian in the home. And
then Harold b Lee in in 1973
said, we've gotten away from being this guardian
in home. In fact, do you mind me
reading? Yeah. Please. So this is a quote
from Harold Harold b Lee in 1972
talking about the change that they implemented from
word teaching to home teaching. They changed the
branding, let's say. They changed the branding from
word teaching to home teaching because we've gotten
into this
idea of just it being a visit. And
this is what he said. A once a
month visit. Right? A once a month visit.
Yeah. Well, but guess what? It's still supposed
to be once a month. And, if at
all possible, it's still supposed to be once
a month. But
we don't need to push on that time.
But I Yeah. Yeah. But that's what it's
still
in fact, there's a great well, I'll just
I'll give this quote and then I'll give
another quote. Again. This is a quote from
Harold B. Lee. Maybe the home teacher should
be charged more clearly to describe
his mission to watch over and to strengthen
to see that members do their duty. They
think themselves as teachers of the gospel message
only.
Maybe we ought to be calling them home
guardians or sentinels
and to report their stewardship to the fathers
of the ward. We must do something to
change the emphasis from teaching to guardians
to watching over the church kind of concept.
Until we get that into our minds, we
are not going to do the kind of
home teaching that is going to get results.
So that's why they changed it from ward
teaching to home teaching was to get this
ministering kind of result.
About every twenty years,
we get this same message. That's right. And
in 1987,
president Benson did the same thing, and he
gave that talk to the home teachers of
the church and reiterated what we should be
doing, and it should be more ministry than
we're going into the homes.
In,
2018,
president Nelson, the same sort of thing. But
they started trying to do this back in
2005,
which again is
twenty years from president Benson's talk. But for
ten
years, this committee
that had been called by the the leaders
of the church to try to figure out
how to get us back to the original
mission of what we should be doing and
and serving one another and blessing one another
and helping one another, They gave
up because here you've got all these people
with all these different opinions about what to
do. But what the Lord wants is what
matters the most. And so
how often do you go into your home?
How often do you make contact? How often
do you do all these things for your
people? Well,
that's between you and the Lord. Now, I
think they've taken the guardrails off to give
us a higher and holier version of this,
to help us act higher and holier,
to give us a higher law kind of
thing? Are we ready to take the training
wheels off of ward teaching and home teaching
and
empower ourselves
to where we should be personally
and how we should bless the lives of
others. I would challenge everybody
to get out on our knees every night
and ask, how can I be doing a
better job with my ministry?
And let the spirit guide us. Rather than
Steve Weber or Kirk Francom
or anybody else, tell us how to minister
to the families that we are supposed to
let's ask them, first of all, what can
I be praying for? And then secondly,
listen to heavenly father when we ask, how
can I be a better ministering brother tomorrow?
Or how can I be a better ministering
sister tomorrow?
Yeah. I promise you, those are prayers
he answers immediately.
And if we will just stop,
listen,
that answer will come immediately.
In fact, I've when somebody
asked me
every time somebody would ask me as a
bishop,
how do I receive revelation? I've never heard
the spirit tell me what to do. I'd
always say, tonight, get down on your knees
and ask, what can I do better tomorrow?
And I promise
you will receive revelation today.
It's a promise. And so when you ask,
heavenly father, how can I better serve this
family that I am assigned to? What can
I do better tomorrow? He will answer that
prayer and tell us. Now, if you ask,
should I be doing more or should I
be doing less? I already know the answer
to that question.
It's probably we could be doing more. We
could probably be doing a better job. And
so President
Holland,
I always say President Holland because number one,
he was president of BYU when I was
down there, but then he ended his term
as president. But when he when he was
Elder Holland and he and he rolled out
home ministry and her ministry,
he said, we still need to visit the
home. It's still the priority, but there are
these other extenuating circumstances that might make it
difficult,
but
that's the standard. We still want to get
into the home. And we're told in doctrine
covenant section 20, visit the house of each
member. Now the reason why we should be
in the house is because
that's the most personal space and that's where
we can get on our knees and that's
where we can leave blessings on these people's
homes and leave and give them blessings.
That's the most personal place to be really
in touch and the safest place for them
in most cases
to open up and to share their struggles
and their challenges.
Yeah. That's really powerful. I appreciate you sharing
those quotes and those, that perspective.
This is maybe more Utah centric or Idaho,
Utah, Arizona centric question, but, you know, I've
had individuals bring this up to me as
they move from out of state, you know,
the, the old school mission, mission field to
Utah.
And it was a good example of this
was a few years ago, my mom kinda
had a, cancer scare, you know, went to
her test, they discovered some cancer and likely
it was really easily treated. But, you know,
this is sort of the moment with that,
you know, in the in the Liahona,
it's the perfect story of, like, how ministering
sisters or ministering brothers show up and and
are are of service there. And and my
mom was sort of hesitant to let them
know about this because there really wasn't a
lot for them to do because my brother
lives five minutes away. My other brother's ten
minutes away. My sister's fifteen minutes away. I'm,
you know, thirty minutes away. And so in
Utah, oftentimes you get such you know, there's
a lot of family connections in Utah
that at the end of the day, there's
just not a lot for the, you know,
ministering brother or sister to do. And I
remember there's this moment where they did find
out about this, you know, this moment, this
medical scare that she was going through, and
they're kinda like, well, I mean, you didn't
even call. You know? And so sometimes it's
tricky in Utah or in these more saturated
areas where there's a lot of family support.
Like, how do you respond to that or
thoughts there around that? Well, no. We we're
in the same situation. We've got a lot
of family around here that we could reach
out to. But I've found
and I I've had a an unusual situation
because I've had a great ministering brother over
the years that has been coming to our
home for a long, long time. In fact,
I don't think he ever knocks anymore. He
just comes on in, and
he's just part of the family. Yeah. And
I would actually feel more comfortable
calling him at 03:00 in the morning than
anybody else because he's inserted himself into our
our home and into our family in a
way that I always say he knows me
well and loves me still. He knows everything
about me and still loves me. And he
knows our challenges. He knows our struggles. Things
I don't even share with my family, that
I share with him because I know he's
authorized to help me and he's authorized to
know how to help.
I would really,
again, it comes down to,
well, I don't the only thing I could
say is it's a two part system. We're
gonna rely on those families and we're gonna
rely on our ministry and brothers and ministry
and sisters if they're showing up. And I
always say, just show up and show some
love. You can't go wrong if you just
show up and show some love.
We try to,
and you said it a couple of times
today,
we try to make things happen or we
try to do things a certain way that
we think we're supposed to do them.
Just if you wanna be authentic, just show
up and let them know, I love you.
I'm praying for you.
How can I be praying for you better?
What sorts of things can I be praying
for? And when they offer that help
that way and it's sincere,
I think we're a lot more inclined inclined
to
to ask for their help. I think I
butchered what I was trying to say there.
I think I butchered what I wanted to
say. No. I think it came across. Yeah.
But I I this brother that has been
and now he's been assigned to other people
since he hasn't been our assigned ministering brother
for two years, but our ministering brothers haven't
shown up in two years. And so he's
the guy I still go to. He's still
my go to guy and will
be for a long, long time.
My wife ministers to a a younger woman
that's half her age. The the woman could
be her daughter.
And, you know, it this woman calls my
wife all the time for help because my
wife's kind of a fill in grandma
for her. And it's just because my wife
has been there for her over and over
and over again that this woman feels completely
comfortable calling her for help and assistance where
her mother's passed away. And and, and my
my wife is kind of her default mom
and default grandma for her kids. And so
it's been a a neat experience to watch
these relationships develop when we put ourselves in
those places.
Yeah. Yeah. And that's really great advice where
it's not that you need a task, you
know, you have to help let me help
you when you're sick or have a medical
scare because I'm your your ministering brother or
sister. But it's more of like just knowing
that their presence is there. My mind as
you were saying that went to
an interview I did years ago. Many people
probably remember the I think it was in
the Elder Holland when he talked about home
teaching before they made the change.
That was talk to the emissaries of the
saints. Yes. Yes. No. To the emissaries of
the church. That's what it was. To the
emissaries of the church. Talked about a give
an example of a a home teaching situation
where I think this in Vegas area, tragically,
a father backed over his son in a
truck and the son died. He's nine years
old and this home teacher really showed up
in a special way to to minister to
him. And I actually reached out and I
interviewed that father. Oh, great. It was interesting
as he told a story, and I'm really
trying to dig into, like, what were the
components here that we could maybe learn from
this experience? And he said, oftentimes, when something
so tragic happens to a family or it's
a medical scare or it's even something minor
where we kinda think, you know what? They
got family.
They're good or, you know, I didn't wanna
bother them. They're going through so much. They
don't need a visitor just showing up. And
he said, it was remarkable
the strength that came from just people showing
up and just Yeah. Pushing through those feelings
of, we'll let them process this and check-in
later. But it was those who just showed
up and sat in their living room and
just talked to them for a few minutes
that
got them through that next hour, you know,
to that thing. And so just sort of
being that, like, that presence, right? Of course,
they've got family, but knowing that, wow, like
so many other people showed up in my
neighborhood, in my ward, and and that meant
something. And it really sanctifies us on a
different level. You know, when you bring that
up, I think of Job and his three
buddies that showed up f or his buddies
that showed up for three days and didn't
say anything. They just were there with him.
They didn't say. They didn't talk. They just
were there with him. And I think sometimes
mourning with those that mourn is very
challenging for people. It's it is for me
to know what to say in those types
of situations when somebody's really struggling,
and we wanna let them process before we
we go in there. But sometimes people just
need somebody to hold their hand And just
let them know that we love them. No
matter what, we're here for them. We don't
have to try to fix it because sometimes
you can't fix some of these things, but
you can be with them. And
when you think back in Mosiah where it
says to be with and strengthen them,
to bear one another's burdens, to to mourn
with those that mourn, those aren't easy things
to do. Those are difficult things to do.
And
we just have to plow through the awkwardness
until it's not awkward anymore. We just need
to
it's hard sometimes to turn a visit into
something organic
until we've done it over and over and
over and over again. It's just not going
to be
natural until we've plowed through that awkwardness.
Yeah. Any thoughts or tips or perspectives come
to mind? I'm gonna flip the script a
little bit here as far as you know,
we've talked about
maybe Utah centered
dynamics where family's so close, but what about
out there in Nebraska and Maine and, you
know, Spain, wherever it is where maybe it's
a little bit different of a dynamic because
people are spread out. Maybe you drive two
hours to church and, you know, there's a
lot of those dynamics that make it more
difficult. Any tips or thoughts, perspectives? Well, I'll
I'll I'll share another story. And this is,
again, is a familiar one. My wife, her
family used to spend the summer up at
a cabin. They lived
in near San Jose and they had a
cabin up in the Sierras
and
their home teacher would fly up there.
Of course, this isn't gonna happen every time,
but he would fly up there because they
would be gone for three months. And he
he has a little pilot's license and he'd
fly up there to see him. That's devotion.
That's dedication. And that's also somebody who has
access to a plane. But in in most
cases, that doesn't happen. But, you know, when
you've got, you know,
and I use this example all the time,
let's say that somebody lives out on a
remote island in the Pacific and the,
you know, they're out in The Philippines and
and there's one member out on this island.
How do you get to him? How do
you minister to him? How do you let
him know he's cared for and he's part
of the ward? And that's when those examples
that Elder Holland's given us come into play,
where we have all the technology in the
world now to keep in contact with people
through text or
a phone call or video chats or whatever.
There's a lot of things that we can
do when we're miles and miles and miles
away from somebody.
But as often as possible,
we should make an effort to get together
with them and to, you know, as as
in sales, we say knees to knees and
nose to nose, you know, to get together
with them and and talk to them because
we can plow through a lot of barriers
when we're we're face to face talking to
somebody that we can't in a text or
a phone call or a video chat like
this. But those are difficult situations. And and
again, that's why we have changed the name
of this from home teaching because home isn't
the only place that it can happen.
And teaching isn't really the primary purpose of
it anymore.
But if we do our best, and that's
again another another thing that President Holland said
in his talk, just do your best. And
President Hinckley used to always say, no. Don't
do your best. Do your very best.
And, if we do our very best in
these situations,
people will know of our sincerity and and
that relationship will grow like it's supposed to,
whether you and I are talking face to
face or we're doing a video chat. The
more consistent that we can be,
and it's not just a once a month
type of contact,
then,
again, that relationship will grow and grow till
it is the relationship
that people go to to help with their
problems.
Now one thing I I wanna say,
don't forget to make contact with your your
families at church.
Somebody in one of your chats on your
ZionsLab
said
that he feels lonely. And this is a
guy in church leadership
that says that nobody sits by him and
his family
when they go
to parties at the ward. Nobody sits with
him at church leadership meetings. Yeah. He's in
church leadership, and nobody sits with him at
church leadership meetings. And he's lonely and he
doesn't make friends easily. And he said, this
is a challenge for me. And,
Curt, nobody should feel lonely
in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
day Saints.
The Lord, his heart is breaking for anybody
that says I don't have any friends at
church.
And so
we, as their ministering brothers, ministering sisters, if
nobody else goes up and says hi to
them, we should be going up and putting
our arms around them, shaking their hand, or
letting them know we see them at church.
And this may be the only especially in
these remote areas, we may be the only
church contact that they have because they aren't
surrounded by neighbors and friends or even family
who are members of the church. They may
be the only member of their family that's
a member of the church.
We have to let people know that we
love them and we see them. I know
there's a brother at my ward that sits
by himself all the time. Nobody goes up
and says hi. I do everything I can
every time to go up and say hi.
And that's because I don't know who's ministering
brother or ministry, sisters, but I know he's
lonely, and we need to make that contact.
But I just think it's such a tragedy
that somebody in our church feels like nobody
sees him, and nobody knows him, and nobody
loves him.
So that's something that we've gotta do in
Utah.
That's something we need to do in Nebraska.
That's something we need to do in the
far off corners of the world. We need
to let people know that they're loved and
that they're seen. Yeah.
You know, thinking back to your emphasis on,
home teaching interviews back in the day and
now, you know, ministering interviews.
Any, tips or tricks or tactics
come to mind? Because sometimes those could be
awkward or it's like,
you know, am I just here to to
report that I'm a good person and I
care for my people? Or is there more
to it? What tips or tricks do you
have for just with the interview ministering interviews?
There's a lot more to it. And actually,
it is the opportunity for the elders quorum
president, the Relief Society presidency,
to do some ministry of their own and
really to ascertain how each family is doing.
You'll get to know the person that you're
interviewing, but you'll also hopefully inquire about the
families that they minister to and be able
to to pass that on to the bishop.
This is a church of assignments,
and this is a church of returning and
reporting. And in fact, you know, there's great
examples in the temple
of returning and reporting
stewardship.
And that is an eternal principle,
and the savior himself was not exempt from
returning and reporting, and we need to do
the same thing.
So,
again, this has to be something
that we're persistent with as a presidency,
but it's also something that has to come
from within as a member of the ward
to show up and return a report.
And we need to teach that as leadership,
that this is a principle that we're
required to do as part of magnifying our
calling. I know people don't like requirements,
and I know that's taboo sometimes to say,
well, this is How we grew up. Right?
Well, some people don't like the guardrails. Some
people don't like the,
you must do this or you must do
that. The people don't like to be commanded
in all things.
So but this is an eternal principle to
return a report, and we need to teach
that. As an elders quorum presidency, we need
to teach that in quorum.
As a bishopric, we need to teach that
from the pulpit, that returning and reporting is
a requirement
in these types of assignments. And
when we're doing those interviews,
we should be, asking how they're doing. We
should be asking what we could be praying
for for them. Kind of set an example
through the interview as to what a
ministering
visit could look like. And then
don't
take those things lightly that they say that
they're praying for. Write them down. And then
at the end of the visit, make sure
when you're praying for those people that you
remember those things that they said specifically
that they're they need prayers for, and the
people that they visit, the things that they
need prayers for. And then don't forget to
pass it on to the bishop.
Now if they come in with a problem
that's
big that they're dealing with with one of
the families,
that's where we offer assistance as a quorum
presidency
because we have all the
labor that we need. We have all the
troops that we need within our ward or
our stake if the problem is a big
problem.
But this is where the the ward and
the stake rally around even a person, an
individual,
if their needs are more than the
companionship can handle on their own.
Because some problems are big. Some problems are
really big that these poor companionships are dealing
with, and they they need to know that
they can call on the troops for assistance.
Yeah. Powerful. Really good stuff. Well,
any other point, principle, concept, story that you
wanna make sure we squeeze in here before
we wrap up? Or what do you think?
For hours and hours and hours. This is
such an important thing that we learn about
and understand our responsibilities.
In doctrine and covenants one zero seven ninety
nine, it says let everybody learn their own
duty. Nobody ever reads 100
where there's consequences for not learning our duty,
but we need to learn our duties. We
need to know what we're supposed to do
as an elders' comp president or as a
relief study president or is it a ministering
brother, ministering sister. And there's lots of great
information in out there, but I think the
takeaway here
is if you and I'll say it again.
If you serve like Jesus, you'll start to
love like Jesus. You love like Jesus, you'll
start to become like Jesus.
And that is a principle
that's so easy to follow, but it's so
simple people
kind of forget that, hey. All I'm here
to do is become like Jesus. That's my
goal in this life. Heavenly father wants
his goal, his work, and his glory is
to bring us home, but we've gotta help
him out. We've gotta we've gotta do our
part so that he can bring us home.
And instead of being one of the five
foolish virgins, we need to be one of
the five prepared ones and do what needs
to be done so that door opens and
we get to join the party.
And we just need to be really, really
diligent
and not slothful servants. I think there's if
everybody goes back and reads Matthew 25,
that's a great chapter
that talks about how we can be like
him and how we can become like him
and be with him. Awesome. Well, and I'll
point people to, on Amazon, you can, find
the book there in Kindle or paperback. It's
the new book is called Home Ministering,
the Process of Perfecting Saints. I had to
change the language because
once Deseret Book decided that they did wanna
carry the book, they wanted me to change
the language to the new language of ministry.
So it turns out that ministering does sell.
Alright. It does sell. Yes. It's helpful. It's
a practical
They realized that there was a need. And
so anyways. But I also have a a
website that can give them a lot of
information, just just practical help, and it says
homeministry.com.
Yeah. And we'll link to all that in
the show notes to be honest. Super. Super.
Last question I have for you, Steve, is
as you reflect on your time as a
leader, how has being a leader helped you
become a better follower of Jesus Christ?
Wow. You should have given me that question
up front. Let me think about it for
a while. That's a great question. Hour if
you want.
Sorry. I'm I'm a rambler.
You're good. That's a great question. How is
a leader? I I think that it's taught
me
a lot more patience for leadership. Being in
leadership,
has taught me a lot more patience for
leadership because I know the time and effort
that's put into serving as a quorum president
or a bishop or a counselor.
I just I know that the sacrifices
that are made
And so as
a follower,
I'm a lot more patient with them. I'm
a lot more understanding of them, and I
am a lot more prayerful
for them in their responsibilities
as a follower.
I know that
we should be praying for our prophet and
those that serve with him. We should be
praying every day for our bishop and those
that serve with,
him
and the ward leadership because they need those
prayers. When I got released as a bishop,
I always say that the mantle is half
rights, privileges, authority, keys, all of that, and
half
love for the people that you're serving. It's
a combination of love and authority.
And when that's taken away,
that love doesn't go away. But there's a
big hole in your heart because I guarantee
you, you can feel people say that they
felt the man to leave. I'm telling you,
they feel the man to leave because those
prayers stop
and they go towards the the new bishop
or the new elders' quorum president. And you
just feel
this emptiness when you get released because you've
put so much of yourself into these callings
that, you know, what what do I do
now? And so as a follower,
I would say our our duty is to
support, sustain, and pray for our leadership.
Now that we've reached the end of the
episode, I quickly wanna thank you for supporting
the Leading Saints podcast.
There's so much content out there to consider
and you picked this one. If Leading Saints
has made an impact in your life, we
would sure like to hear about it at
leadingsaints.org/contact.
And if you could quickly text or email
this episode to a leader, you know, I
bet it will bless their life. You can
mark off your good term daily, and let's
even call it ministering. Okay. Maybe not that
far. But seriously, thank you, and help us
share this content.
It came as a result of the position
of leadership which was imposed upon us
by the God of heaven who brought forth
a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
And when the declaration
was made concerning the only and only true
and living Church upon the face of the
earth,
we were immediately put in a position of
loneliness,
the loneliness of leadership
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,
and to which we must face up with
boldness and courage
and ability.