1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:04,240 Hey. If you think Leading Saints is just 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:06,960 a podcast, well, that's a big mistake. We 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:09,039 are so much more than a podcast. We've 4 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:11,939 established online a Leading Saints community. 5 00:00:12,275 --> 00:00:15,014 That's right. If you go to leadingsaints.org/zion, 6 00:00:15,074 --> 00:00:17,574 you'll be pushed towards a community online where 7 00:00:17,635 --> 00:00:19,875 the discussion is really happening. Sure. You're gonna 8 00:00:19,875 --> 00:00:21,554 listen to this episode. You'll get some great 9 00:00:21,554 --> 00:00:23,814 tips and ideas and hear a thought provoking 10 00:00:23,954 --> 00:00:27,250 discussion, but the conversation doesn't end there. We, 11 00:00:27,410 --> 00:00:29,970 go over to the Leading Saints community and 12 00:00:29,970 --> 00:00:31,570 talk further there. You can make comments. You 13 00:00:31,570 --> 00:00:33,329 can ask questions, and we'll probably do some 14 00:00:33,329 --> 00:00:35,829 follow-up live streams with maybe the same guest. 15 00:00:36,210 --> 00:00:37,649 But a lot is going on at the 16 00:00:37,649 --> 00:00:39,914 Leading Saints community. So check out the show 17 00:00:39,914 --> 00:00:42,814 notes for the link leadingsaints.org/zion, 18 00:00:43,034 --> 00:00:44,975 and join the Leading Saints community. 19 00:00:47,594 --> 00:00:49,274 Hey. If you're a newbie to Leading Saints, 20 00:00:49,274 --> 00:00:51,594 it's important that you know what is this 21 00:00:51,594 --> 00:00:54,280 Leading Saints thing. Well, Leading Saints is a 22 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:55,420 nonprofit organization 23 00:00:55,799 --> 00:00:58,920 dedicated to helping Latter day Saints be better 24 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:00,920 prepared to lead. And the way we do 25 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:03,320 that is through content creation. So we have 26 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:05,640 this phenomenal podcast. We have a newsletter. We 27 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,855 have virtual conferences, so much more. And articles 28 00:01:08,855 --> 00:01:10,215 on our website, I mean, I could go 29 00:01:10,215 --> 00:01:12,454 on and on. Right? And we encourage you 30 00:01:12,454 --> 00:01:15,094 to, jump in, check out Leading Saints. Go 31 00:01:15,094 --> 00:01:17,254 to the search bar at leadingsaints.org 32 00:01:17,254 --> 00:01:19,334 and type in some topics and see what 33 00:01:19,334 --> 00:01:21,370 pops up. We're just glad you're here to 34 00:01:21,370 --> 00:01:22,189 join us. 35 00:01:25,210 --> 00:01:27,850 I saw a comment on YouTube a few 36 00:01:27,850 --> 00:01:30,090 weeks ago that related to a video and 37 00:01:30,090 --> 00:01:33,049 somebody said, Hey, just stop doing the intro. 38 00:01:33,049 --> 00:01:34,430 Just get on with the conversation. 39 00:01:34,834 --> 00:01:36,274 And I get it. I mean, I would 40 00:01:36,274 --> 00:01:37,715 love to just get on with the conversation, 41 00:01:37,715 --> 00:01:39,314 but I wanna just give you a little 42 00:01:39,314 --> 00:01:41,075 bit of a of a teaser sneak peek 43 00:01:41,075 --> 00:01:43,414 because because a lot of these episodes, 44 00:01:43,715 --> 00:01:45,314 you gotta stay to the end to get 45 00:01:45,314 --> 00:01:47,715 all the goodness out of it. Okay? So 46 00:01:47,715 --> 00:01:48,994 I wanna give you a little idea what 47 00:01:48,994 --> 00:01:51,349 we're gonna talk about, and, I I record 48 00:01:51,349 --> 00:01:53,510 these after I actually record the interview, and 49 00:01:53,510 --> 00:01:55,670 so I know I know it's worth sticking 50 00:01:55,670 --> 00:01:57,829 around for. And so definitely stick around for 51 00:01:57,829 --> 00:01:59,670 this one because I invite in my friend, 52 00:01:59,670 --> 00:02:02,250 Stefan Tager, BYU religion professor, 53 00:02:02,629 --> 00:02:04,650 teaches New Testament and also 54 00:02:05,109 --> 00:02:05,609 hemenetics 55 00:02:06,125 --> 00:02:06,625 hemenetics, 56 00:02:07,084 --> 00:02:08,384 the science of, 57 00:02:09,004 --> 00:02:09,504 preaching. 58 00:02:10,604 --> 00:02:12,525 He'll clarify that, get it all all straight 59 00:02:12,525 --> 00:02:14,284 for me. But I recently heard him on 60 00:02:14,284 --> 00:02:16,525 a different podcast, the Why Religion podcast, another 61 00:02:16,525 --> 00:02:18,364 one you should subscribe to, where he was 62 00:02:18,364 --> 00:02:20,360 talking about the doctrine of justification 63 00:02:20,900 --> 00:02:21,719 and sanctification. 64 00:02:22,099 --> 00:02:24,180 And this is so much at the core 65 00:02:24,180 --> 00:02:25,079 of our theology. 66 00:02:25,699 --> 00:02:27,319 And definitely in 67 00:02:27,620 --> 00:02:29,639 the arena where leaders 68 00:02:30,019 --> 00:02:31,939 are engaged in as far as teaching the 69 00:02:31,939 --> 00:02:32,919 gospel, facilitating 70 00:02:33,299 --> 00:02:33,799 repentance, 71 00:02:34,544 --> 00:02:35,044 facilitating 72 00:02:35,504 --> 00:02:38,224 ordinances and access to ordinances. They're this really 73 00:02:38,224 --> 00:02:38,724 describes 74 00:02:39,185 --> 00:02:41,104 the dynamics that are going on that maybe 75 00:02:41,104 --> 00:02:42,704 superficially we look at and, like, why do 76 00:02:42,704 --> 00:02:43,984 we do that? You know, why do we 77 00:02:43,984 --> 00:02:46,224 restrict ordinances? We talked about that. Why do 78 00:02:46,224 --> 00:02:48,560 we have covenants and commands? We talked about 79 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,280 that. And are we really saved? Like, why 80 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:53,120 do we say we're saved or redeemed in 81 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,280 past tense? Like, don't we really know that 82 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:57,120 yet? We talked about it. So you're gonna 83 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:58,340 love it, this interview. 84 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:00,159 I hope this is one of many as 85 00:03:00,159 --> 00:03:01,594 we invite professor 86 00:03:02,134 --> 00:03:04,894 Tager on the podcast, and, there's other, hopefully, 87 00:03:04,894 --> 00:03:06,775 you listen to the past episodes we've done 88 00:03:06,775 --> 00:03:08,694 with him as well. He's a good man 89 00:03:08,694 --> 00:03:11,674 of knowledge and perspective, and, he teaches us 90 00:03:11,894 --> 00:03:13,435 about the doctrine of justification 91 00:03:23,110 --> 00:03:23,849 and sanctification. 92 00:03:24,550 --> 00:03:27,830 Alright. We're, welcoming back, this time virtually, Stefan 93 00:03:27,830 --> 00:03:29,895 Tager. How are you? I'm doing well. Thanks 94 00:03:29,895 --> 00:03:32,375 for having me. Well, I appreciate you, you 95 00:03:32,375 --> 00:03:34,375 coming on here. I always appreciate our conversations, 96 00:03:34,375 --> 00:03:35,754 and I just had the opportunity 97 00:03:36,134 --> 00:03:38,614 to attend, BYU education week where you were 98 00:03:38,614 --> 00:03:39,114 speaking 99 00:03:39,735 --> 00:03:42,150 and just you know, you talked about the 100 00:03:42,150 --> 00:03:43,349 book of Mark and I thought, you know, 101 00:03:43,349 --> 00:03:44,790 it's not a new testament year. I don't 102 00:03:44,790 --> 00:03:46,150 know what I'll gain out of this, but 103 00:03:46,150 --> 00:03:47,830 I was there and I loved every minute 104 00:03:47,830 --> 00:03:48,469 of it. And, 105 00:03:49,189 --> 00:03:52,169 it was awesome. So so you are a 106 00:03:52,229 --> 00:03:55,664 BYU religion professor. Anything else worth worth stating? 107 00:03:56,125 --> 00:03:57,485 No. I think that's it. As far as 108 00:03:57,485 --> 00:03:59,564 this goes, I mean, that's yeah. My background 109 00:03:59,564 --> 00:04:01,104 is actually in seminaries and institutes, 110 00:04:01,405 --> 00:04:03,104 but I currently teach at BYU. 111 00:04:03,724 --> 00:04:07,084 Cool. And what's your core like the classes 112 00:04:07,084 --> 00:04:08,444 you teach? Like, do you teach one of 113 00:04:08,444 --> 00:04:10,379 the, is there four or five of the 114 00:04:10,379 --> 00:04:11,120 core religion 115 00:04:11,500 --> 00:04:13,439 classes? Or Yeah. So I teach 116 00:04:13,740 --> 00:04:15,580 New Testament a lot, and then I also 117 00:04:15,580 --> 00:04:17,339 teach the Book of Mormon. And then I 118 00:04:17,339 --> 00:04:19,500 also teach homiletics, which is the study of 119 00:04:19,500 --> 00:04:21,259 preaching. That's what most of my research is 120 00:04:21,259 --> 00:04:22,779 in, is actually in the study of preaching. 121 00:04:22,779 --> 00:04:25,095 So yeah. And if you're disappointed that we're 122 00:04:25,095 --> 00:04:26,795 not talking about is it hemolytics? 123 00:04:27,654 --> 00:04:30,295 Hemolytics. Yeah. Hemolytics. Well, we did a whole 124 00:04:30,295 --> 00:04:32,134 episode on that. You can find in the 125 00:04:32,134 --> 00:04:34,295 library. So I I really enjoyed that one. 126 00:04:34,295 --> 00:04:36,689 It was awesome. It was really fun. Yeah. 127 00:04:36,930 --> 00:04:38,850 And I heard you on another I think 128 00:04:38,850 --> 00:04:41,430 was it Why Religion podcast? Which is fantastic 129 00:04:41,490 --> 00:04:43,670 podcast. You were on there talking about justification 130 00:04:43,810 --> 00:04:46,209 and sanctification. Is that is that accurate? That's 131 00:04:46,209 --> 00:04:48,850 right. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. So where did this 132 00:04:49,245 --> 00:04:50,845 I mean, where did this focus come from? 133 00:04:50,845 --> 00:04:52,865 I mean, obviously, it's at the core 134 00:04:53,165 --> 00:04:55,324 of doctrine or theology, and so it's easy 135 00:04:55,324 --> 00:04:57,564 to, you know, kinda trip over these principles 136 00:04:57,564 --> 00:04:59,485 just talking about anything. But, was there is 137 00:04:59,485 --> 00:05:01,485 there a story about focusing on this and 138 00:05:01,485 --> 00:05:03,600 creating some content around it? Yeah. And I 139 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,560 think mainly, in all honesty, I because I 140 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:08,240 listen to a lot of sermons from traditional 141 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:10,100 Christians, I heard them talk a lot about 142 00:05:10,319 --> 00:05:10,819 justification, 143 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:11,779 particularly 144 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,720 from a a traditional Christian preacher named Tim 145 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:15,220 Keller. 146 00:05:15,535 --> 00:05:17,615 And I started to see how he used 147 00:05:17,615 --> 00:05:18,115 justification 148 00:05:18,735 --> 00:05:20,035 in his sermons both 149 00:05:20,495 --> 00:05:21,475 to give people 150 00:05:21,855 --> 00:05:24,014 a sense of comfort and knowing that they're 151 00:05:24,014 --> 00:05:26,995 saved and accepted by God, but also justification 152 00:05:27,134 --> 00:05:28,115 provides a motivation 153 00:05:28,579 --> 00:05:30,579 for diligent discipleship as well. And so the 154 00:05:30,579 --> 00:05:32,980 way that he talked about that and preached 155 00:05:32,980 --> 00:05:34,899 about it was really interesting to me. And 156 00:05:34,899 --> 00:05:36,339 then I wanted to see what our own 157 00:05:36,339 --> 00:05:38,259 theology said about it, where we might differ 158 00:05:38,259 --> 00:05:41,060 from some traditional Christians and and what what 159 00:05:41,060 --> 00:05:43,319 does the restoration have to say about justification. 160 00:05:43,814 --> 00:05:45,735 And it turns out it's very practical in 161 00:05:45,735 --> 00:05:47,975 the way it relates to our relationship with 162 00:05:47,975 --> 00:05:48,955 God and perfectionism 163 00:05:49,574 --> 00:05:51,595 and how we know we're okay with God. 164 00:05:51,735 --> 00:05:53,095 All of those types of things are sort 165 00:05:53,095 --> 00:05:54,875 of orbiting the topic of justification. 166 00:05:55,254 --> 00:05:57,095 Yeah. You mentioned Tim Keller. I remember he's 167 00:05:57,095 --> 00:05:59,400 standing in your education week class that everybody 168 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:01,480 should quit their job and read everything that 169 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:03,720 Tim Keller has written. Right? Because he is 170 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:05,879 an impactful pastor and he passed away just 171 00:06:05,879 --> 00:06:07,080 last year, a couple of years ago, I 172 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:08,759 think. I think two or three years ago 173 00:06:08,759 --> 00:06:11,160 now. Yeah. Yeah. And our mutual friend, pastor 174 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:11,660 Jeff, 175 00:06:12,044 --> 00:06:14,604 he described I mean, like, Tim Keller was 176 00:06:14,604 --> 00:06:17,084 their president Holland. Right? Like, just as far 177 00:06:17,084 --> 00:06:19,644 as his way he's articulates the gospel. And 178 00:06:19,644 --> 00:06:21,964 I mean, everybody leaned in when Tim Keller 179 00:06:21,964 --> 00:06:24,125 was preaching. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And he was 180 00:06:24,125 --> 00:06:25,664 known for having a very successful 181 00:06:26,189 --> 00:06:29,069 and thoughtful and inspiring church in New York 182 00:06:29,069 --> 00:06:31,389 City. And he was actually really effective at 183 00:06:31,389 --> 00:06:34,050 getting 20 30 year olds to embrace Christianity. 184 00:06:34,350 --> 00:06:35,790 And so a lot of people were wondering, 185 00:06:35,790 --> 00:06:37,310 how is he doing this? What is what 186 00:06:37,310 --> 00:06:39,410 are his principles and practices of inviting 187 00:06:39,790 --> 00:06:42,324 young, thoughtful people into faith? Yeah. That's really 188 00:06:42,324 --> 00:06:44,985 good. So this, I really think it's important, 189 00:06:45,444 --> 00:06:47,764 especially from a leadership standpoint to really understand 190 00:06:47,764 --> 00:06:50,884 this doctrine of justification and sanctification and how 191 00:06:50,884 --> 00:06:51,784 they work together, 192 00:06:52,084 --> 00:06:55,064 how they, you know, what's the, practical 193 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,759 touchpoint of these doctrines. Cause oftentimes I think 194 00:06:58,759 --> 00:07:01,240 for instance, you often hear the old trope 195 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:03,240 of like, oh, like Latter day Saints, they're 196 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,560 a workspace theology, right? And you're like, wait 197 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:07,079 a minute, no way we believe in grace, 198 00:07:07,079 --> 00:07:08,775 but I think we're supposed to go to 199 00:07:08,775 --> 00:07:10,215 the temple and do all these things to 200 00:07:10,215 --> 00:07:11,895 be saved. But, you know, you kind of 201 00:07:11,895 --> 00:07:13,415 get trapped in that where we're like, I 202 00:07:13,415 --> 00:07:15,014 don't really understand it, but I've been told 203 00:07:15,014 --> 00:07:15,915 we're not a workspace, 204 00:07:16,215 --> 00:07:20,055 theology. And, but by understanding these two doctrines, 205 00:07:20,055 --> 00:07:21,754 it really helps maybe frame 206 00:07:22,180 --> 00:07:24,519 what's being said there, what what the accusation 207 00:07:24,579 --> 00:07:26,599 is, and actually how our gospel 208 00:07:26,899 --> 00:07:28,259 is framed in a way that, yeah, there 209 00:07:28,259 --> 00:07:30,579 is like, there are commandments. There are things 210 00:07:30,579 --> 00:07:32,339 that we do, but that doesn't necessarily mean 211 00:07:32,339 --> 00:07:34,915 it's towards our saving, our salvation, but a 212 00:07:34,915 --> 00:07:36,835 result of that. Right? But where's a good 213 00:07:36,835 --> 00:07:39,074 jumping off point with to lead in this 214 00:07:39,074 --> 00:07:41,555 discussion for you? Yeah. I think the probably 215 00:07:41,555 --> 00:07:43,415 the most helpful way to start with justification 216 00:07:43,955 --> 00:07:45,715 is to talk about how it relates to 217 00:07:45,715 --> 00:07:46,215 forgiveness. 218 00:07:47,069 --> 00:07:49,310 Because Latter day Saints, when they talk about 219 00:07:49,310 --> 00:07:51,949 the atonement, particularly people who are struggling with 220 00:07:51,949 --> 00:07:52,449 perfectionism, 221 00:07:52,909 --> 00:07:54,750 we're constantly saying things like, well, if you 222 00:07:54,750 --> 00:07:56,529 repent, you can be forgiven. 223 00:07:56,909 --> 00:07:59,310 And for some people, that might be really 224 00:07:59,310 --> 00:08:01,469 comforting to know that, of course, that would 225 00:08:01,469 --> 00:08:02,735 be. But 226 00:08:03,035 --> 00:08:04,954 the real question for someone who's dealing with 227 00:08:04,954 --> 00:08:05,454 perfectionism 228 00:08:06,235 --> 00:08:07,514 is sort of like, I kinda feel like 229 00:08:07,514 --> 00:08:09,595 I'm never doing enough. And all the things 230 00:08:09,595 --> 00:08:11,194 I'm doing, I don't know if those are 231 00:08:11,194 --> 00:08:13,514 even I'm doing them well enough. And so 232 00:08:13,514 --> 00:08:15,035 you can tell me all day long that 233 00:08:15,035 --> 00:08:17,439 I can repent and then be forgiven, which 234 00:08:17,439 --> 00:08:19,300 is true and helpful and should be taught. 235 00:08:19,439 --> 00:08:21,459 But what about just sort of the everyday 236 00:08:22,319 --> 00:08:24,639 experiences of living where I mean, you know, 237 00:08:24,639 --> 00:08:26,399 like, I just where people just sort of 238 00:08:26,399 --> 00:08:28,580 feel like they're kind of not measuring up 239 00:08:28,639 --> 00:08:31,275 quite a bit. And so the church defines 240 00:08:31,275 --> 00:08:33,995 justification in a very helpful and straightforward way. 241 00:08:33,995 --> 00:08:35,274 In fact, let me just read it. I've 242 00:08:35,274 --> 00:08:37,514 got it right here. It says, to be 243 00:08:37,514 --> 00:08:41,054 pardoned from punishment for sin and declared guiltless. 244 00:08:41,940 --> 00:08:44,899 And so someone can be forgiven multiple times 245 00:08:44,899 --> 00:08:46,980 throughout their life as they repent, and that's 246 00:08:46,980 --> 00:08:49,720 something that they should be doing continually repenting. 247 00:08:50,100 --> 00:08:51,639 But justification happens 248 00:08:52,100 --> 00:08:54,735 when someone has faith in Jesus Christ, the 249 00:08:54,735 --> 00:08:56,914 kind of faith that leads to repentance, 250 00:08:57,294 --> 00:08:59,535 they get baptized, and they receive the Holy 251 00:08:59,535 --> 00:09:02,095 Ghost. And at that moment, they are then 252 00:09:02,095 --> 00:09:02,595 justified. 253 00:09:03,054 --> 00:09:05,054 And it's sort of like they receive a 254 00:09:05,054 --> 00:09:08,095 new legal standing before God where they are 255 00:09:08,095 --> 00:09:11,159 declared in the right. Paul, when he uses 256 00:09:11,159 --> 00:09:13,399 the word justify, he's drawing on the Jewish 257 00:09:13,399 --> 00:09:14,459 law court imagery 258 00:09:14,759 --> 00:09:16,839 where you would have two parties and the 259 00:09:16,839 --> 00:09:19,079 judge would say, you are justified or you 260 00:09:19,079 --> 00:09:21,659 are declared in the right. And so forgiveness 261 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,684 can happen multiple times throughout someone's life, but 262 00:09:24,684 --> 00:09:27,084 justification is the new state that we're put 263 00:09:27,084 --> 00:09:27,584 into 264 00:09:28,125 --> 00:09:30,444 once we enter into a covenant relationship with 265 00:09:30,444 --> 00:09:32,605 God. And because I have that new state, 266 00:09:32,605 --> 00:09:35,324 I can have confidence that I'm saved, that 267 00:09:35,324 --> 00:09:38,149 I'm redeemed, past tense. In fact, throughout the 268 00:09:38,149 --> 00:09:40,789 Book of Mormon, the word saved or redeemed 269 00:09:40,789 --> 00:09:43,509 is used in the past tense, including for 270 00:09:43,509 --> 00:09:46,070 new converts. So just like someone can walk 271 00:09:46,070 --> 00:09:48,470 out of the ceiling room and say, I'm 272 00:09:48,470 --> 00:09:48,970 sealed, 273 00:09:49,429 --> 00:09:51,110 someone can walk out of the waters of 274 00:09:51,110 --> 00:09:51,610 baptism 275 00:09:51,945 --> 00:09:54,504 and say I'm saved. Mhmm. Yeah. I love 276 00:09:54,504 --> 00:09:56,825 that. And having that confidence that the work 277 00:09:56,825 --> 00:09:58,105 is done, and it's not so much on 278 00:09:58,105 --> 00:09:59,705 what what we need to do as as 279 00:09:59,705 --> 00:10:01,705 much as what Christ did for us. And 280 00:10:01,705 --> 00:10:04,470 that is done and complete and over. Right? 281 00:10:04,470 --> 00:10:06,549 Yeah. Like, a couple wouldn't walk out of 282 00:10:06,549 --> 00:10:08,470 the ceiling room and say, oh, it's our 283 00:10:08,470 --> 00:10:11,190 works that have sealed us. That's a gift 284 00:10:11,190 --> 00:10:13,350 from God that they've received freely. And, of 285 00:10:13,350 --> 00:10:14,629 course, they have to live in light of 286 00:10:14,629 --> 00:10:15,370 those covenants, 287 00:10:15,750 --> 00:10:17,269 and they have to be prepared to make 288 00:10:17,269 --> 00:10:18,009 those covenants. 289 00:10:18,554 --> 00:10:19,294 But, ultimately, 290 00:10:19,674 --> 00:10:21,995 our salvation is a gift from god. So 291 00:10:21,995 --> 00:10:24,235 then the question might be, well, then why 292 00:10:24,235 --> 00:10:26,315 perform works? Why do I do that? And 293 00:10:26,315 --> 00:10:27,995 this is where we might differ from some 294 00:10:27,995 --> 00:10:30,254 traditional Christians, mostly reformed types, 295 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:33,039 people who embrace, like, a Calvinist theology or 296 00:10:33,039 --> 00:10:33,860 reformed theology. 297 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,659 We don't believe in one saved, always saved. 298 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:38,980 And so although the requirement is not perfection, 299 00:10:39,519 --> 00:10:42,320 in order to maintain a justified state, the 300 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:43,620 requirement is faithfulness. 301 00:10:44,075 --> 00:10:45,914 In thirty five twenty seven, the savior says 302 00:10:45,914 --> 00:10:48,554 faithfulness until the end. Sometimes I'll ask my 303 00:10:48,554 --> 00:10:51,674 students, what's the difference between living faithfully or 304 00:10:51,674 --> 00:10:52,174 faithfulness 305 00:10:52,714 --> 00:10:53,455 and perfection? 306 00:10:53,914 --> 00:10:55,674 And they can sense that right away. One 307 00:10:55,674 --> 00:10:57,615 is striving to be diligent and loyal 308 00:10:58,019 --> 00:11:00,040 to our father in heaven and his son. 309 00:11:00,180 --> 00:11:02,340 And one is perfection means I can never 310 00:11:02,340 --> 00:11:05,060 make a mistake at all. Right? Yeah. And 311 00:11:05,060 --> 00:11:06,500 this is where it correct me if this 312 00:11:06,500 --> 00:11:08,100 is this frame is a little bit off, 313 00:11:08,100 --> 00:11:09,700 but this is why I think it's so 314 00:11:09,700 --> 00:11:10,920 effective to frame 315 00:11:11,485 --> 00:11:13,565 these ordinances and things in the context of 316 00:11:13,565 --> 00:11:15,904 a relationship. Like we are now in relationship 317 00:11:16,365 --> 00:11:16,865 together. 318 00:11:17,165 --> 00:11:19,485 That ceremony happened and now, you know, like 319 00:11:19,485 --> 00:11:21,804 a marriage ceremony happens, like you are now 320 00:11:21,804 --> 00:11:24,689 married, you know, done. Right? Now there's obviously 321 00:11:24,689 --> 00:11:26,610 a lot more that comes to that relationship 322 00:11:26,610 --> 00:11:28,610 and it's a give and take and, you 323 00:11:28,610 --> 00:11:30,689 know, you're learning and, and taking care of 324 00:11:30,689 --> 00:11:32,610 each other on and on throughout our life 325 00:11:32,610 --> 00:11:33,269 and eternity. 326 00:11:33,649 --> 00:11:35,250 And that's where I, if I frame it 327 00:11:35,250 --> 00:11:37,514 that way with my relationship with God, like 328 00:11:37,514 --> 00:11:39,355 I stepped in the waters of baptism. There 329 00:11:39,355 --> 00:11:41,595 was a ceremony that happened and now I 330 00:11:41,595 --> 00:11:44,095 am justified. Like I am now in relationship 331 00:11:44,475 --> 00:11:47,274 that there's something different about my relationship with 332 00:11:47,274 --> 00:11:49,274 God in that moment. And that just progresses 333 00:11:49,274 --> 00:11:51,115 more and more as we take on other 334 00:11:51,115 --> 00:11:51,615 ordinances. 335 00:11:52,220 --> 00:11:53,899 Yeah. And and the the marriage analogy really 336 00:11:53,899 --> 00:11:56,220 helps here because just like in a marriage, 337 00:11:56,220 --> 00:11:56,799 you know, 338 00:11:57,179 --> 00:12:00,000 small acts of mistreatment or dismissiveness 339 00:12:00,460 --> 00:12:03,360 towards each other wouldn't justify ending the relationship. 340 00:12:03,820 --> 00:12:06,345 In a ceiling, there's time to grow and 341 00:12:06,345 --> 00:12:08,745 change and repent and get better. Same thing 342 00:12:08,745 --> 00:12:09,485 with baptism. 343 00:12:09,865 --> 00:12:11,165 But contra 344 00:12:11,545 --> 00:12:13,705 some traditional Christians, we do believe that there 345 00:12:13,705 --> 00:12:15,465 are some lines. There might be some things. 346 00:12:15,465 --> 00:12:17,490 I mean, there certainly are some things that 347 00:12:17,490 --> 00:12:20,129 would justify ending the marriage relationship. And so 348 00:12:20,129 --> 00:12:22,529 we believe that someone could sin in such 349 00:12:22,529 --> 00:12:24,370 a way that they could lose their covenant 350 00:12:24,370 --> 00:12:26,929 standing and justified state. Then I often will 351 00:12:26,929 --> 00:12:28,529 ask my students. I'll say, well, then why 352 00:12:28,529 --> 00:12:30,129 not commit all the small sins then? If 353 00:12:30,129 --> 00:12:31,889 you if it's only big sins that cause 354 00:12:31,889 --> 00:12:34,424 you to lose your justice, you know, justified 355 00:12:34,424 --> 00:12:36,504 state, why not just commit small sins? And 356 00:12:36,504 --> 00:12:38,745 the answer to that is very simple. Nephi 357 00:12:38,745 --> 00:12:41,065 taught that Satan works like through a flaxen 358 00:12:41,065 --> 00:12:41,565 cord. 359 00:12:41,944 --> 00:12:43,964 Small sins that are left unrepented 360 00:12:44,745 --> 00:12:45,784 will grow into 361 00:12:46,190 --> 00:12:47,870 to the kinds and become the kinds of 362 00:12:47,870 --> 00:12:49,470 sins that could cause us to lose our 363 00:12:49,470 --> 00:12:49,970 justified 364 00:12:50,350 --> 00:12:53,009 standing. So hence, the need for continual repentance 365 00:12:53,470 --> 00:12:56,429 and getting better. But it's not a there's 366 00:12:56,429 --> 00:12:58,289 a huge difference between saying, 367 00:12:58,750 --> 00:13:00,914 someday, I hope to be saved and saying 368 00:13:00,914 --> 00:13:03,394 in the words of president Oaks that we 369 00:13:03,394 --> 00:13:05,975 are have already been saved from sin 370 00:13:06,355 --> 00:13:06,855 conditionally. 371 00:13:07,475 --> 00:13:09,475 Yeah. Those are two very different things. Someone 372 00:13:09,475 --> 00:13:11,495 doesn't say, I hope someday I'll be sealed. 373 00:13:11,634 --> 00:13:13,554 They say, now I'm sealed. And in the 374 00:13:13,554 --> 00:13:14,995 back of their mind, they know that they 375 00:13:14,995 --> 00:13:17,040 could lose that. But for the most part, 376 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:18,899 if they stay faithful and in the mainstream 377 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:19,779 of the church, 378 00:13:20,399 --> 00:13:22,559 then they can expect all of those blessings 379 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:23,379 throughout eternity. 380 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:26,000 Yeah. That is by grace that we are 381 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:26,500 saved 382 00:13:26,879 --> 00:13:29,054 after agreeing to be faithful to God, after 383 00:13:29,134 --> 00:13:30,735 agreeing to be in relationship with him. Because 384 00:13:30,735 --> 00:13:32,335 in order to be in a relationship, both 385 00:13:32,335 --> 00:13:34,174 parties have to actually want to be in 386 00:13:34,174 --> 00:13:36,495 the relationship. Right? God isn't going to save 387 00:13:36,495 --> 00:13:38,654 us against our will. You know, God isn't 388 00:13:38,654 --> 00:13:40,095 gonna bless us against our will. If we 389 00:13:40,095 --> 00:13:41,934 just don't, you know, we don't want him, 390 00:13:41,934 --> 00:13:44,700 he's not gonna force. He'll obviously always be 391 00:13:44,700 --> 00:13:47,019 beckoning us to come follow me. Come follow 392 00:13:47,019 --> 00:13:49,340 me. Come follow me. But definitely like that. 393 00:13:49,340 --> 00:13:51,519 It's more of that faithfulness or that relationship, 394 00:13:51,980 --> 00:13:53,360 that needs to be there. 395 00:13:53,660 --> 00:13:54,940 Yeah. And there has to be a way 396 00:13:54,940 --> 00:13:57,884 of of making sense of the small sins 397 00:13:57,884 --> 00:14:00,684 while I'm in covenant relationships. So if I'm 398 00:14:00,684 --> 00:14:02,924 impatient with my kids, there has to be 399 00:14:02,924 --> 00:14:04,684 a way for me to make sense of 400 00:14:04,684 --> 00:14:07,085 I didn't lose my salvation, but it's also 401 00:14:07,085 --> 00:14:07,904 not okay 402 00:14:08,284 --> 00:14:10,125 Mhmm. That I lose my patience with my 403 00:14:10,125 --> 00:14:12,199 kids or something. And so or whatever it 404 00:14:12,199 --> 00:14:15,159 is. And so and that understanding comes through 405 00:14:15,159 --> 00:14:17,740 understanding what a covenant relationship is and justification. 406 00:14:17,959 --> 00:14:20,039 I'm in this new state that says I'm 407 00:14:20,039 --> 00:14:22,199 okay. But as a part of maintaining that 408 00:14:22,199 --> 00:14:22,699 state, 409 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,079 I am trying my best to follow Jesus 410 00:14:25,079 --> 00:14:27,794 and getting better slowly over time. You know? 411 00:14:28,174 --> 00:14:30,014 Yeah. So let's take this to maybe a 412 00:14:30,014 --> 00:14:30,915 real life practical 413 00:14:31,375 --> 00:14:33,774 situation, you know, if especially for church leaders 414 00:14:33,774 --> 00:14:35,794 where, you know, because sometimes 415 00:14:36,335 --> 00:14:38,995 it's tricky. You want to there's this natural 416 00:14:39,450 --> 00:14:41,769 desire to motivate the people that you lead. 417 00:14:41,769 --> 00:14:43,529 Obviously you want them to be engaged in 418 00:14:43,529 --> 00:14:45,370 the gospel. You want to be motivated in 419 00:14:45,370 --> 00:14:48,009 the gospel, motivated in doing the right thing, 420 00:14:48,009 --> 00:14:48,910 keeping the commandments, 421 00:14:49,290 --> 00:14:51,610 you know? And so sometimes we have to 422 00:14:51,610 --> 00:14:54,670 create this feeling of like, well, you know, 423 00:14:54,834 --> 00:14:56,914 brothers and sisters, if we don't, we don't 424 00:14:56,914 --> 00:14:58,754 go to the temple more, like we're in 425 00:14:58,754 --> 00:15:01,315 trouble or like God's really disappointed in us 426 00:15:01,315 --> 00:15:03,554 or man, you know, cause we were trying 427 00:15:03,554 --> 00:15:05,315 to sincerely motivate them to engage in the 428 00:15:05,315 --> 00:15:07,569 gospel because this is such a blessing. But 429 00:15:07,569 --> 00:15:09,649 at the same time, we kinda have to 430 00:15:09,649 --> 00:15:11,569 set that well, let's let's sure you're saved, 431 00:15:11,569 --> 00:15:13,409 but we'll set that aside. Let's imagine you're 432 00:15:13,409 --> 00:15:15,089 not saved and you need to go to 433 00:15:15,089 --> 00:15:16,929 the temple more type of thing. Right? And 434 00:15:16,929 --> 00:15:19,089 so how can a leader better understand this 435 00:15:19,089 --> 00:15:21,009 as far as like creating a culture around 436 00:15:21,009 --> 00:15:22,230 this concept of justification? 437 00:15:23,014 --> 00:15:24,855 Yeah. I think this is where the work 438 00:15:24,855 --> 00:15:25,835 of that homiletician, 439 00:15:26,294 --> 00:15:28,215 Tim Keller sorry. That preacher I really love 440 00:15:28,215 --> 00:15:31,014 named Tim Keller is extremely helpful. In fact, 441 00:15:31,014 --> 00:15:33,335 there's a president Kimbell quote that I should 442 00:15:33,335 --> 00:15:34,235 read to you. 443 00:15:34,695 --> 00:15:36,394 Basically, president Kimbell says, 444 00:15:36,839 --> 00:15:38,620 Jesus saw sin as 445 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,079 wrong, but he also saw it as unmet 446 00:15:41,079 --> 00:15:41,579 need. 447 00:15:41,959 --> 00:15:43,799 It's from Jesus the great the man what 448 00:15:43,799 --> 00:15:45,639 is it? The master The perfect leader. The 449 00:15:45,639 --> 00:15:47,399 perfect leader. Yes. Yeah. I'm looking for it 450 00:15:47,399 --> 00:15:48,759 on here, but I can't find it. But 451 00:15:48,759 --> 00:15:49,259 regardless, 452 00:15:49,704 --> 00:15:51,865 the implication for that quote are pretty profound. 453 00:15:51,865 --> 00:15:54,504 That means that often people are sinning because 454 00:15:54,504 --> 00:15:56,904 they don't realize the security they have in 455 00:15:56,904 --> 00:15:58,745 Christ. And so we we can try to 456 00:15:58,745 --> 00:16:01,065 threaten people into doing what's right, you know, 457 00:16:01,065 --> 00:16:02,764 and that might work on some level. 458 00:16:03,069 --> 00:16:04,129 But when people 459 00:16:04,589 --> 00:16:06,529 realize that they are in a covenant relationship, 460 00:16:06,909 --> 00:16:08,929 that they haven't saved, justified, 461 00:16:09,389 --> 00:16:11,549 that sort of frees them up to want 462 00:16:11,549 --> 00:16:13,549 to be a blessing to other people, to 463 00:16:13,549 --> 00:16:14,449 first and foremost 464 00:16:15,084 --> 00:16:17,345 praise God and return love back to God. 465 00:16:17,485 --> 00:16:18,845 The easiest ways to do that are through 466 00:16:18,845 --> 00:16:20,445 prayer and to study his word and to 467 00:16:20,445 --> 00:16:22,924 spend time worshiping him. That's just the natural 468 00:16:22,924 --> 00:16:23,424 outgrowth 469 00:16:23,804 --> 00:16:26,044 of being grateful that he saves sinners like 470 00:16:26,044 --> 00:16:29,004 us. And then also because we're not so 471 00:16:29,004 --> 00:16:29,825 self concerned, 472 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,080 we find the natural reaction to being filled 473 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,000 with so much love is to try to 474 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,240 serve others, whether that's in the temple or 475 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,179 in church callings, in our church communities, 476 00:16:39,559 --> 00:16:42,774 or however it looks. And so I think 477 00:16:42,774 --> 00:16:45,195 obedience is best framed as a response 478 00:16:45,654 --> 00:16:48,455 to the goodness of God, particularly as manifested 479 00:16:48,455 --> 00:16:50,455 through his son, Jesus Christ, and the sacrifice 480 00:16:50,455 --> 00:16:52,215 on the cross. And then we can ask 481 00:16:52,215 --> 00:16:52,715 ourselves, 482 00:16:53,095 --> 00:16:55,815 how does knowing that free us up and 483 00:16:55,815 --> 00:16:58,110 give us the motivation to do what's right? 484 00:16:58,350 --> 00:17:00,669 How does that act create the response for 485 00:17:00,669 --> 00:17:01,169 obedience? 486 00:17:01,789 --> 00:17:04,190 Yeah. And that's really helpful of framing it 487 00:17:04,190 --> 00:17:06,269 like sin or what appears to be a 488 00:17:06,269 --> 00:17:08,190 lack of motivation. What if we were framed 489 00:17:08,190 --> 00:17:10,509 as this is actually an unmet need? That 490 00:17:10,509 --> 00:17:12,349 that's why way they're acting is so many 491 00:17:12,349 --> 00:17:13,329 times as leaders, 492 00:17:13,654 --> 00:17:16,375 you know, leaders come from maybe the crop 493 00:17:16,375 --> 00:17:18,634 of members who've really dialed in the behaviors, 494 00:17:18,694 --> 00:17:20,855 the the scripture study, the temple attendants, all 495 00:17:20,855 --> 00:17:22,855 things. And so that leader naturally thinks, well, 496 00:17:22,855 --> 00:17:24,694 I mean, I go to the temple. Why 497 00:17:24,694 --> 00:17:26,549 can't they go to the temple? Or I 498 00:17:26,549 --> 00:17:28,070 go to church every week. Why can't they 499 00:17:28,070 --> 00:17:29,529 go to church? And so we often 500 00:17:29,910 --> 00:17:32,470 misinterpret as like, obviously they're they don't understand 501 00:17:32,470 --> 00:17:34,150 it enough. So maybe if I get up 502 00:17:34,150 --> 00:17:36,630 there and really talk to them more about 503 00:17:36,630 --> 00:17:38,789 this or that behavior or principle or commandment 504 00:17:38,789 --> 00:17:40,805 or covenant, then they'd understand it. And then 505 00:17:40,805 --> 00:17:42,164 they do it. When in reality, if we 506 00:17:42,164 --> 00:17:43,765 can say, well, what if there's actually a 507 00:17:43,765 --> 00:17:46,345 story there? What if there's an unmet need 508 00:17:46,404 --> 00:17:47,845 that I'm just not aware of yet? And 509 00:17:47,845 --> 00:17:49,525 if I understood that more, then we'd have 510 00:17:49,525 --> 00:17:51,525 actually something to focus on. And there's so 511 00:17:51,525 --> 00:17:53,525 many examples of life of the savior is, 512 00:17:53,525 --> 00:17:54,884 you know, even the woman at the well, 513 00:17:54,884 --> 00:17:56,160 like obviously addresses 514 00:17:56,619 --> 00:17:58,539 her behaviors and maybe ways that she was 515 00:17:58,539 --> 00:18:00,299 off, but it's more in this framing of, 516 00:18:00,299 --> 00:18:02,539 like, you obviously have an unmet need. That's 517 00:18:02,539 --> 00:18:04,380 why you are you have all these men 518 00:18:04,380 --> 00:18:05,579 in your life or that's why you are 519 00:18:05,579 --> 00:18:06,940 living with a man you're not married or 520 00:18:06,940 --> 00:18:08,595 whatever. You know, I I think it's really 521 00:18:08,595 --> 00:18:11,075 fascinating to approach it that way rather than 522 00:18:11,075 --> 00:18:13,714 assuming it's a motivation issue. Yeah. I mean, 523 00:18:13,714 --> 00:18:15,154 just take for example, and I've heard Tim 524 00:18:15,154 --> 00:18:17,474 Keller use this example, take for example, the 525 00:18:17,474 --> 00:18:19,154 sin of lying or the commandment to tell 526 00:18:19,154 --> 00:18:21,315 the truth. Right? I mean, we could just 527 00:18:21,315 --> 00:18:23,369 tell people try harder to be more honest, 528 00:18:23,529 --> 00:18:25,769 which is fine, which is great. But instead, 529 00:18:25,769 --> 00:18:27,609 what we can do is we can say, 530 00:18:27,609 --> 00:18:29,690 why would someone lie? Well, often is to 531 00:18:29,690 --> 00:18:31,690 protect themselves. Maybe one, they don't wanna get 532 00:18:31,690 --> 00:18:32,349 in trouble. 533 00:18:32,650 --> 00:18:34,650 Often people lie because they wanna be seen 534 00:18:34,650 --> 00:18:36,674 a certain way. And so there are a 535 00:18:36,674 --> 00:18:37,575 lot of relationships 536 00:18:37,954 --> 00:18:40,434 that are really superficial because they're just so 537 00:18:40,434 --> 00:18:40,934 polite, 538 00:18:41,234 --> 00:18:43,575 and we should never be rude or dismissive. 539 00:18:43,954 --> 00:18:45,095 But a lot of people 540 00:18:45,474 --> 00:18:47,335 in marriages or families 541 00:18:47,869 --> 00:18:48,769 or with friends 542 00:18:49,470 --> 00:18:52,029 experience very superficial relationships because they have a 543 00:18:52,029 --> 00:18:53,250 hard time being honest. 544 00:18:53,630 --> 00:18:55,630 But if my security is in Christ, if 545 00:18:55,630 --> 00:18:57,789 he accepts me and if I am accepted 546 00:18:57,789 --> 00:19:00,190 in his eyes and justified redeemed, then I 547 00:19:00,190 --> 00:19:02,369 don't need the cheap acceptance of the world, 548 00:19:02,554 --> 00:19:04,234 And so I'm free to be honest. I'm 549 00:19:04,234 --> 00:19:06,154 gonna be kind. I'm gonna be loving, but 550 00:19:06,154 --> 00:19:07,054 I'm gonna fearlessly 551 00:19:07,355 --> 00:19:09,115 tell the truth. We can do that with 552 00:19:09,115 --> 00:19:11,115 any sin. We can see how, man, if 553 00:19:11,115 --> 00:19:12,875 I am in Christ, if I if I've 554 00:19:12,875 --> 00:19:15,115 been accepted in him and I have all 555 00:19:15,115 --> 00:19:16,794 things through him, then I don't I don't 556 00:19:16,794 --> 00:19:19,320 need to cheat, to lie, to steal, to 557 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:21,420 be dishonest, to break the law of chastity, 558 00:19:21,799 --> 00:19:23,500 you name it. All of my 559 00:19:23,799 --> 00:19:24,859 spiritual, emotional, 560 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,980 even temporal needs are met in Christ. 561 00:19:28,519 --> 00:19:31,065 Yeah. Anything else as far as, like, teaching 562 00:19:31,065 --> 00:19:33,784 this in award setting or creating it more 563 00:19:33,784 --> 00:19:35,944 in the culture of like, you know, we're 564 00:19:35,944 --> 00:19:38,204 not just trying to push everybody towards perfectionism. 565 00:19:38,424 --> 00:19:40,265 We need to understand we're justified and that's 566 00:19:40,265 --> 00:19:40,765 actually 567 00:19:41,144 --> 00:19:42,630 a very, you know, 568 00:19:43,029 --> 00:19:45,829 motivating perspective. It's like, oh, you mean it's 569 00:19:45,829 --> 00:19:47,589 okay. I wasn't perfect this week. Like, yeah, 570 00:19:47,589 --> 00:19:49,349 that's why you're at church. Right? Because you 571 00:19:49,349 --> 00:19:51,430 are justified and you're ready to try again. 572 00:19:51,430 --> 00:19:53,289 Right? Any anything else as far as just 573 00:19:53,589 --> 00:19:54,410 having this 574 00:19:54,789 --> 00:19:57,825 more prominent in maybe teachings or just in 575 00:19:57,984 --> 00:19:59,524 Latter day Saint livelihood? 576 00:19:59,825 --> 00:20:01,664 Yeah. In in an article that I published, 577 00:20:01,664 --> 00:20:04,085 it's called declared guiltless justification 578 00:20:04,544 --> 00:20:06,325 by faith in the Latter day Saint classroom. 579 00:20:06,464 --> 00:20:08,224 I have a three step model, and so 580 00:20:08,224 --> 00:20:10,670 maybe this is helpful. So one is to 581 00:20:10,670 --> 00:20:13,230 examine the unmet needs or insecurities behind a 582 00:20:13,230 --> 00:20:15,630 particular sin. We just talked about that. And 583 00:20:15,630 --> 00:20:17,710 then two, explain how the atonement of Jesus 584 00:20:17,710 --> 00:20:20,849 Christ and our justice justified state before God 585 00:20:21,069 --> 00:20:23,789 means our insecurities are fulfilled in Christ or 586 00:20:23,789 --> 00:20:26,285 met. There's no need to be insecure anymore 587 00:20:26,285 --> 00:20:28,045 once we know that we're in Christ. And 588 00:20:28,045 --> 00:20:31,404 then finally, highlight how our justified state before 589 00:20:31,404 --> 00:20:33,664 God can motivate us to righteous obedience. 590 00:20:34,205 --> 00:20:36,445 So that's one three step model. Another thing 591 00:20:36,445 --> 00:20:38,170 is to do is to ask ourselves, how 592 00:20:38,170 --> 00:20:41,210 did Jesus embody the commandment we're teaching in 593 00:20:41,210 --> 00:20:41,950 our behalf? 594 00:20:42,250 --> 00:20:43,230 So for example, 595 00:20:43,529 --> 00:20:44,670 someone may be struggling 596 00:20:45,049 --> 00:20:47,049 and saying, I don't understand all of the 597 00:20:47,049 --> 00:20:48,349 things about church history. 598 00:20:48,730 --> 00:20:50,089 You know, it's hard for me to stay 599 00:20:50,089 --> 00:20:51,230 loyal at this moment. 600 00:20:51,744 --> 00:20:53,265 And again, we have to be so careful 601 00:20:53,265 --> 00:20:55,125 and wise. We're not trying to guilt people. 602 00:20:55,265 --> 00:20:57,345 But one way to maybe frame that is 603 00:20:57,345 --> 00:20:59,845 to say, Jesus stayed loyal 604 00:21:00,144 --> 00:21:02,144 to his work on the cross. He stayed 605 00:21:02,144 --> 00:21:04,884 loyal to us. Even when Jesus said, father, 606 00:21:04,944 --> 00:21:07,169 why hast thou forsaken me? And so he 607 00:21:07,169 --> 00:21:09,269 felt alone and yet he stayed loyal 608 00:21:09,569 --> 00:21:11,169 to us. And so we stay loyal to 609 00:21:11,169 --> 00:21:12,450 him even though we may not be able 610 00:21:12,450 --> 00:21:13,190 to explain 611 00:21:13,490 --> 00:21:16,389 everything in our lives. And so often, this 612 00:21:16,690 --> 00:21:18,309 savior perfectly embodies 613 00:21:18,690 --> 00:21:20,710 the principle we're trying to teach, particularly, 614 00:21:21,089 --> 00:21:22,309 his work on the cross 615 00:21:22,664 --> 00:21:24,904 for us, then we can frame obedience as 616 00:21:24,904 --> 00:21:27,384 a response to that. Yeah. And you talk 617 00:21:27,384 --> 00:21:29,384 about that loyalty. My mind goes to even 618 00:21:29,384 --> 00:21:31,005 the process of weekly 619 00:21:31,384 --> 00:21:33,945 participation in the sacrament. Right? Like, correct me 620 00:21:33,945 --> 00:21:35,545 if I'm wrong, but, like, the premise of 621 00:21:35,545 --> 00:21:37,740 the sacrament is that your week did not 622 00:21:37,740 --> 00:21:39,580 go perfectly. And that's why you need to 623 00:21:39,580 --> 00:21:41,580 come to church and partake of the sacrament. 624 00:21:41,580 --> 00:21:42,640 It's almost like this, 625 00:21:42,940 --> 00:21:45,279 this measure of I'm here because 626 00:21:45,580 --> 00:21:47,740 I need Jesus to keep going through this 627 00:21:47,740 --> 00:21:50,174 next week. But never has the deacon, you 628 00:21:50,174 --> 00:21:52,174 know, rolled his eyes when you take the 629 00:21:52,174 --> 00:21:54,015 sacrament. Like really? Like you were just here 630 00:21:54,015 --> 00:21:56,115 seven days ago and you need the sacrament 631 00:21:56,174 --> 00:21:58,335 again? Like, can't you figure this out? Like, 632 00:21:58,335 --> 00:22:00,494 no, you can't do this without Christ. So 633 00:22:00,494 --> 00:22:03,670 that constant justification or that constant symbol of 634 00:22:03,670 --> 00:22:06,230 justification through the sacrament. Is that in line, 635 00:22:06,230 --> 00:22:08,570 you think? Yeah. And I think we absolutely 636 00:22:08,710 --> 00:22:09,769 can receive forgiveness 637 00:22:10,230 --> 00:22:13,670 of particular sins in sacrament. But my understanding 638 00:22:13,670 --> 00:22:16,335 of justification is that it's not like your 639 00:22:16,335 --> 00:22:16,835 justification 640 00:22:17,134 --> 00:22:18,275 disappears on Wednesday. 641 00:22:18,815 --> 00:22:21,075 Your covenant standing and so 642 00:22:21,375 --> 00:22:24,174 the sacrament prayer promises that the spirit will 643 00:22:24,174 --> 00:22:26,174 always to be with us, and it will 644 00:22:26,174 --> 00:22:29,100 sanctify us. And so, of course, repentance and 645 00:22:29,100 --> 00:22:30,940 forgiveness is a part of it, but it 646 00:22:30,940 --> 00:22:32,080 seems to be more 647 00:22:32,460 --> 00:22:34,859 in connection with us sanctifying, in fact, where 648 00:22:34,859 --> 00:22:37,519 our very natures are being changed and improving 649 00:22:37,820 --> 00:22:40,720 as well as being forgiven for particular sins. 650 00:22:40,835 --> 00:22:42,595 But I don't go on dates, you know, 651 00:22:42,595 --> 00:22:44,994 on Saturday nights with my wife because our 652 00:22:44,994 --> 00:22:45,494 ceiling 653 00:22:45,875 --> 00:22:47,714 was canceled on Thursday. That just 654 00:22:48,515 --> 00:22:51,174 you know? Yeah. Yeah. You know, we go 655 00:22:51,234 --> 00:22:52,694 to church as a response 656 00:22:53,154 --> 00:22:54,214 to god's goodness, 657 00:22:54,789 --> 00:22:56,809 and it seems like it would be exceedingly 658 00:22:56,950 --> 00:22:58,170 emotionally tiring 659 00:22:58,710 --> 00:22:59,849 to think that, you 660 00:23:00,309 --> 00:23:02,630 know, it's sort of like I I've gotta 661 00:23:02,630 --> 00:23:04,730 keep paying rent or something like that. 662 00:23:05,029 --> 00:23:06,950 Rather, it's, no. I wanna be closer to 663 00:23:06,950 --> 00:23:08,549 god. He was so good to me in 664 00:23:08,549 --> 00:23:10,815 sending his son, And so I participate in 665 00:23:10,815 --> 00:23:13,054 the sacrament as a way to get clarity 666 00:23:13,054 --> 00:23:14,335 on how I could be better and to 667 00:23:14,335 --> 00:23:14,835 repent, 668 00:23:15,134 --> 00:23:17,855 but not because, you know, every Thursday I 669 00:23:17,855 --> 00:23:20,095 lost my salvation or something. Yeah. Yeah. That's 670 00:23:20,095 --> 00:23:20,835 really helpful. 671 00:23:21,134 --> 00:23:23,315 And, obviously, we haven't touched much about sanctification 672 00:23:23,375 --> 00:23:25,799 at this point, but and obviously, these go 673 00:23:25,799 --> 00:23:28,920 together and really important to understand together. Alright. 674 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:29,980 So what is sanctification? 675 00:23:30,519 --> 00:23:32,120 Yeah. So this is what we talk about 676 00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:33,480 a lot in the church. And so there's 677 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:34,840 probably not a lot of, you know, reason 678 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:35,960 to spend a lot of time on this, 679 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:37,900 but this is the process of being changed, 680 00:23:38,234 --> 00:23:40,815 not legally, but by our very natures. 681 00:23:41,115 --> 00:23:43,035 And so our thoughts, our feelings, our desires, 682 00:23:43,035 --> 00:23:45,775 our actions change, and we start to love 683 00:23:45,994 --> 00:23:47,535 goodness and truth and righteousness 684 00:23:48,394 --> 00:23:50,714 more naturally. And this is a process that 685 00:23:50,714 --> 00:23:52,095 happens over time. Justification 686 00:23:52,394 --> 00:23:55,000 is an event that happens when we enter 687 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,900 into baptism, and sanctification is the processes 688 00:23:58,200 --> 00:23:59,660 of us becoming more 689 00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:02,839 like God. An analogy might be if we're 690 00:24:02,839 --> 00:24:05,400 peasants and we're outside of the king and, 691 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,359 the king's castle, justification is when we're invited 692 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:09,555 into the king's castle, 693 00:24:10,095 --> 00:24:12,335 and we can now enjoy all of the 694 00:24:12,335 --> 00:24:14,335 the meals and blessings of living with the 695 00:24:14,335 --> 00:24:16,974 king. And but sanctification is when the king 696 00:24:16,974 --> 00:24:18,755 teaches us to become more holy 697 00:24:19,055 --> 00:24:20,974 and righteous and just to become more like 698 00:24:20,974 --> 00:24:22,910 him. Yeah. I love it. I think of, 699 00:24:22,910 --> 00:24:24,849 like, there's often the 700 00:24:25,390 --> 00:24:27,150 primary doctrine of, like, we lived with our 701 00:24:27,150 --> 00:24:29,789 heavenly father before this life, and now we're 702 00:24:29,789 --> 00:24:31,470 here in mortality trying to get back to 703 00:24:31,470 --> 00:24:32,829 our heavenly father. And it's sort of like, 704 00:24:32,829 --> 00:24:34,029 well, wait a minute. Why don't we just 705 00:24:34,029 --> 00:24:35,009 stay in his presence 706 00:24:35,345 --> 00:24:36,464 rather than leave it and try and get 707 00:24:36,464 --> 00:24:38,625 back to it? Because I guess in theory 708 00:24:38,625 --> 00:24:40,384 you could say, well, why didn't God just 709 00:24:40,384 --> 00:24:42,384 justify us there in heaven and say you're 710 00:24:42,384 --> 00:24:43,125 now justified. 711 00:24:43,505 --> 00:24:45,744 And but the problem was there maybe wasn't 712 00:24:45,744 --> 00:24:47,585 a clear way for him to justify us 713 00:24:47,585 --> 00:24:49,105 in the in the moment or I'm sorry, 714 00:24:49,105 --> 00:24:51,279 sanctify us in the moment. And so this 715 00:24:51,279 --> 00:24:54,000 mortal experience is like, yeah, we're all justified. 716 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:55,759 We're all saved. And now we're in this 717 00:24:55,759 --> 00:24:59,359 sanctifying process of, you know, striving with the 718 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,000 commandments and doing different things and, you know, 719 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,400 doing missions and callings and raising a family. 720 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,954 And the natural result of these things is 721 00:25:06,954 --> 00:25:08,634 as we are in a relationship with God, 722 00:25:08,634 --> 00:25:11,515 we are becoming new creatures. Right? Yeah. Yeah. 723 00:25:11,515 --> 00:25:13,595 Absolutely. And I think another way to think 724 00:25:13,595 --> 00:25:16,095 about why doesn't God just justify us all. 725 00:25:16,234 --> 00:25:18,580 And I think for Latter day Saints, a 726 00:25:18,580 --> 00:25:21,220 covenant and faith and love of God couldn't 727 00:25:21,220 --> 00:25:23,779 be authentic unless we could say no to 728 00:25:23,779 --> 00:25:25,619 it, unless we could turn away from it. 729 00:25:25,619 --> 00:25:27,220 Yeah. And so the the fact that I 730 00:25:27,220 --> 00:25:29,640 can choose to enter into that covenant relationship 731 00:25:29,940 --> 00:25:31,799 is the very thing that makes it meaningful. 732 00:25:32,105 --> 00:25:33,945 This is why I'm very grateful that we 733 00:25:33,945 --> 00:25:36,345 don't believe in one saved always saved because 734 00:25:36,345 --> 00:25:38,744 a relationship is not authentic if I have 735 00:25:38,744 --> 00:25:40,345 to stay in it. But the fact that 736 00:25:40,345 --> 00:25:42,845 I can choose to stay faithful to God 737 00:25:42,984 --> 00:25:45,005 is the very thing that makes it real. 738 00:25:45,144 --> 00:25:47,079 Yeah. That's so true. I'm curious, 739 00:25:47,859 --> 00:25:50,820 is there what about sanctification, the contact and 740 00:25:50,820 --> 00:25:52,019 like you say, we sort of have this 741 00:25:52,019 --> 00:25:53,700 figured out where, you know, yeah, there is 742 00:25:53,700 --> 00:25:55,859 emphasis on commandments and covenants and temple work 743 00:25:55,859 --> 00:25:58,099 and all these things we do because we're 744 00:25:58,099 --> 00:26:00,660 being invited into sanctification. Not because we're necessarily 745 00:26:00,660 --> 00:26:03,304 earning anything, but we're being invited to participate 746 00:26:03,684 --> 00:26:04,984 with God in a beautiful 747 00:26:05,365 --> 00:26:07,845 experience, even though, you know, his grace and 748 00:26:07,845 --> 00:26:09,544 power is part of that sanctification 749 00:26:09,845 --> 00:26:12,085 process as well. Anything else as far as 750 00:26:12,085 --> 00:26:14,325 like, how do we do sanctification or promote 751 00:26:14,325 --> 00:26:14,825 sanctification 752 00:26:15,210 --> 00:26:17,230 in our Latter day Saint lives and worlds? 753 00:26:17,609 --> 00:26:19,690 Yeah. I mean, I think the key to 754 00:26:19,690 --> 00:26:21,769 understanding that is that the holy spirit changes 755 00:26:21,769 --> 00:26:24,009 us over time, changes our very nature. And 756 00:26:24,009 --> 00:26:26,329 so any activity that helps us to enjoy 757 00:26:26,329 --> 00:26:28,569 the presence of God or his spirit is 758 00:26:28,569 --> 00:26:30,569 the very thing that begins to to change 759 00:26:30,569 --> 00:26:32,845 us. And then I've so appreciated what President 760 00:26:32,845 --> 00:26:35,484 Irene has taught about how people can notice 761 00:26:35,484 --> 00:26:38,065 how the the pull of sin becomes lessened 762 00:26:38,285 --> 00:26:40,444 in certain areas of our life and how 763 00:26:40,444 --> 00:26:41,964 we just start to enjoy that which is 764 00:26:41,964 --> 00:26:44,525 good and true and beautiful and and holy 765 00:26:44,525 --> 00:26:47,519 more naturally over time. If sanctification means my 766 00:26:47,519 --> 00:26:50,240 life becomes more boring and more strict, people 767 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,099 are not gonna be very interested in that. 768 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,200 Right? But if sanctification means, you know, I'm 769 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,079 becoming something new, more alive, more in tune 770 00:26:58,079 --> 00:27:00,000 to that which is good, more creative, more 771 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:00,500 hardworking, 772 00:27:00,984 --> 00:27:02,684 more joyous, all of those things. 773 00:27:02,984 --> 00:27:05,384 That's what people wanna turn their lives over. 774 00:27:05,384 --> 00:27:08,024 They want a sanctification that enlarges the soul, 775 00:27:08,024 --> 00:27:10,444 not shrinks it. Right? Yeah. Yeah. 776 00:27:10,744 --> 00:27:12,264 So I wanna ask you, like, as far 777 00:27:12,264 --> 00:27:14,809 as, like, the repentance process and even more 778 00:27:14,809 --> 00:27:17,690 specifically, the repentance process when priestly keys are 779 00:27:17,690 --> 00:27:19,450 involved, obviously, you know, with a Bishop and 780 00:27:19,450 --> 00:27:21,289 so forth. And I'm gonna ask you an 781 00:27:21,289 --> 00:27:24,330 impossible question. Question gets asked and debated a 782 00:27:24,330 --> 00:27:26,490 lot. Just curious what comes to mind, but 783 00:27:26,490 --> 00:27:29,224 in the context of this discussion of justification 784 00:27:29,285 --> 00:27:29,944 and sanctification, 785 00:27:30,724 --> 00:27:31,785 why do bishops 786 00:27:32,404 --> 00:27:34,424 sometimes restrict ordinances? 787 00:27:35,045 --> 00:27:36,804 You know, it's a that's a really good 788 00:27:36,804 --> 00:27:38,964 question. The way I teach my students, and 789 00:27:38,964 --> 00:27:40,744 let's just take this for what it's worth, 790 00:27:40,804 --> 00:27:43,684 is that Jesus was really tough on religious 791 00:27:43,684 --> 00:27:44,184 people 792 00:27:44,509 --> 00:27:45,410 who were hypocrites. 793 00:27:46,269 --> 00:27:47,869 Now I I would be really careful how 794 00:27:47,869 --> 00:27:49,390 he teach this in public. You know, you 795 00:27:49,390 --> 00:27:51,809 wanna be Yeah. You wanna be wise. 796 00:27:52,110 --> 00:27:55,070 But if someone is acting like they're making 797 00:27:55,070 --> 00:27:55,570 covenants 798 00:27:56,190 --> 00:27:59,025 and they can't on some level live up 799 00:27:59,025 --> 00:28:01,744 to those, not not perfectly, but they're not 800 00:28:01,744 --> 00:28:03,265 in a state where they can really do 801 00:28:03,265 --> 00:28:05,664 that in an honest way, then that's just, 802 00:28:05,904 --> 00:28:06,964 religious hypocrisy. 803 00:28:07,424 --> 00:28:09,585 It's funny because Jesus was the toughest on 804 00:28:09,585 --> 00:28:12,230 religious people. Right? Yeah. And in fact, in 805 00:28:12,230 --> 00:28:14,329 the Book of Mormon, the most wicked people 806 00:28:14,389 --> 00:28:17,109 are religious people except Korihor, who don't have 807 00:28:17,109 --> 00:28:19,429 faith in Jesus and they also ignore the 808 00:28:19,429 --> 00:28:20,950 living prophet. That's the other feature you see 809 00:28:20,950 --> 00:28:22,629 a lot in the Book of Mormon about 810 00:28:22,629 --> 00:28:23,129 wickedness. 811 00:28:23,535 --> 00:28:24,975 And so that's how I would frame it, 812 00:28:24,975 --> 00:28:27,234 is it's not I would point to him 813 00:28:27,295 --> 00:28:29,615 and how he would say, you know, if 814 00:28:29,615 --> 00:28:31,535 you're gonna say you're gonna live like this, 815 00:28:31,535 --> 00:28:33,535 you've gotta be prepared to actually live like 816 00:28:33,535 --> 00:28:35,615 it. Yeah. And I think that, again, like 817 00:28:35,615 --> 00:28:38,070 you said, the analogy of the marriage is 818 00:28:38,070 --> 00:28:40,470 so helpful to understand that that maybe if 819 00:28:40,470 --> 00:28:42,950 there's poor choices made by one of the 820 00:28:42,950 --> 00:28:44,089 partners in the marriage, 821 00:28:44,390 --> 00:28:46,869 it's not like the divorce immediately happens. It's 822 00:28:46,869 --> 00:28:49,190 over. You're done. But there would be certain 823 00:28:49,190 --> 00:28:51,029 restrictions. Right? That they could get to a 824 00:28:51,029 --> 00:28:53,294 point where it's like, I'm actually not talking 825 00:28:53,294 --> 00:28:55,534 to you tonight, you know, or you need 826 00:28:55,534 --> 00:28:57,294 to move out for a while or to 827 00:28:57,294 --> 00:28:58,575 the point that maybe it gets to more 828 00:28:58,575 --> 00:29:00,595 of a an official divorce type thing because 829 00:29:00,734 --> 00:29:02,575 that person is living in a way that's 830 00:29:02,575 --> 00:29:05,454 not in relationship with what that covenant was 831 00:29:05,454 --> 00:29:08,680 designed and defined as. And so to reconcile 832 00:29:09,059 --> 00:29:10,980 that, we may have to restrict from time 833 00:29:10,980 --> 00:29:13,220 to until you or or both parties are 834 00:29:13,220 --> 00:29:15,460 ready to step back into a relationship as 835 00:29:15,460 --> 00:29:16,820 it is defined. Is that is that a 836 00:29:16,820 --> 00:29:18,980 fair analogy to use? Yeah. I mean and 837 00:29:18,980 --> 00:29:20,900 I and for me, I would really frame 838 00:29:20,900 --> 00:29:22,414 it as is, am I going to be 839 00:29:22,414 --> 00:29:24,994 authentically living these things I promise to live, 840 00:29:25,134 --> 00:29:26,894 or am I just not ready to do 841 00:29:26,894 --> 00:29:29,054 it, you know Yeah. You know, actually live 842 00:29:29,054 --> 00:29:31,634 like this. Plus, in our western individualistic 843 00:29:32,015 --> 00:29:34,335 culture, it's really hard for us to make 844 00:29:34,335 --> 00:29:36,859 sense of church membership independent 845 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,420 of just my own relationship with God, 846 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,539 but there is a communal and public aspect 847 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:43,580 to discipleship. 848 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:45,320 And the reason why I'm saying this is 849 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,420 because if people act a certain way, 850 00:29:47,815 --> 00:29:50,315 certain things, they don't get to call themselves 851 00:29:50,455 --> 00:29:51,115 a Christian 852 00:29:51,494 --> 00:29:54,134 for a little bit. And sometimes people online 853 00:29:54,134 --> 00:29:56,555 will say, well, you know, Jesus would never, 854 00:29:56,615 --> 00:29:59,434 you know, restrict someone's membership. That's not true. 855 00:29:59,575 --> 00:30:02,130 It's taught in Matthew chapter 18, and Paul 856 00:30:02,130 --> 00:30:04,570 teaches it in first Corinthians chapter five. There 857 00:30:04,570 --> 00:30:05,710 are definitely limits 858 00:30:06,090 --> 00:30:08,410 where church leadership says, you know, that is 859 00:30:08,410 --> 00:30:09,230 so serious 860 00:30:09,849 --> 00:30:10,349 that 861 00:30:10,809 --> 00:30:12,890 it publicly could hurt the name of what 862 00:30:12,890 --> 00:30:14,910 it means to be a disciple of Jesus. 863 00:30:15,289 --> 00:30:17,545 You know, Paul frames it as and this 864 00:30:17,545 --> 00:30:19,224 is again something that is really hard for 865 00:30:19,224 --> 00:30:21,065 us to understand in the West, but Paul 866 00:30:21,065 --> 00:30:22,845 frames sin sort of as contagious. 867 00:30:23,305 --> 00:30:25,305 And he says, you can't have that kind 868 00:30:25,305 --> 00:30:27,705 of sin allowed in the community because it 869 00:30:27,705 --> 00:30:30,119 will infect other people. And I actually think 870 00:30:30,119 --> 00:30:32,599 that that's a very mature and nuanced way 871 00:30:32,599 --> 00:30:34,599 of looking at sin. Sometimes people think, oh, 872 00:30:34,599 --> 00:30:36,840 my sins only affect me. That is just 873 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,559 not true. Humans are built in relationship to 874 00:30:39,559 --> 00:30:41,880 other humans. Yeah. So I think those few 875 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:43,720 things are at play there. One is, can 876 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:44,779 someone be authentic? 877 00:30:45,285 --> 00:30:47,684 Two, can I really communally claim to be 878 00:30:47,684 --> 00:30:49,845 a Christian if I'm acting in such a 879 00:30:49,845 --> 00:30:51,305 way that it brings a negative 880 00:30:51,684 --> 00:30:54,744 name upon the church? Right? And then also, 881 00:30:54,965 --> 00:30:55,785 sin is contagious. 882 00:30:56,325 --> 00:30:58,200 It really, really is. And So we have 883 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,039 to be wise. We're always kind. We're always 884 00:31:00,039 --> 00:31:01,960 loving. We're never mean for the sake of 885 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,079 it. But it's okay to have boundaries around 886 00:31:05,079 --> 00:31:07,400 ordinances. They're sacred, and people have to be 887 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,960 ready to enter into a covenant relationship with 888 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:11,494 God. Yeah. That's really helpful. 889 00:31:11,795 --> 00:31:12,994 And I'm just thinking that this is a, 890 00:31:12,994 --> 00:31:14,515 I don't know if this example would be 891 00:31:14,515 --> 00:31:16,454 helpful, but I interviewed, Bennett Borden 892 00:31:16,835 --> 00:31:18,535 who, was raised in the church 893 00:31:18,914 --> 00:31:19,414 and 894 00:31:20,115 --> 00:31:22,434 after his mission left the church, lived in 895 00:31:22,434 --> 00:31:24,595 a, in a same sex relationship for about 896 00:31:24,595 --> 00:31:26,669 twenty years or so. And during that time 897 00:31:26,669 --> 00:31:28,269 he talks about his and then later came 898 00:31:28,269 --> 00:31:30,109 back to the church and is still do 899 00:31:30,109 --> 00:31:31,950 a wife and everything. But, but he talks 900 00:31:31,950 --> 00:31:34,750 about his losing his membership through a membership 901 00:31:34,750 --> 00:31:35,250 council 902 00:31:35,630 --> 00:31:37,869 and the way that the stake president framed 903 00:31:37,869 --> 00:31:40,424 it, he really appreciated basically saying we are 904 00:31:40,424 --> 00:31:42,664 removing the covenant from you. Not as like 905 00:31:42,664 --> 00:31:44,424 we're trying to be mean and other you 906 00:31:44,424 --> 00:31:46,345 or whatever, but it's like you're on a 907 00:31:46,345 --> 00:31:48,684 different path where you're not choosing this relationship. 908 00:31:49,144 --> 00:31:49,964 So it's almost, 909 00:31:50,505 --> 00:31:52,585 you know, we're trying to help you by 910 00:31:52,585 --> 00:31:55,180 not being under this covenant which has clear 911 00:31:55,180 --> 00:31:57,680 guidelines and guardrails and stipulations 912 00:31:58,059 --> 00:31:59,580 of it. You know, I think that's maybe 913 00:31:59,580 --> 00:32:01,740 a a helpful way to to understand the 914 00:32:01,740 --> 00:32:03,340 kind of mechanics of what's going on with 915 00:32:03,340 --> 00:32:04,779 this, but I don't know. Yeah. And I 916 00:32:04,779 --> 00:32:07,365 think that the doctrine of justification teaches that 917 00:32:07,365 --> 00:32:09,365 there's a lot of room for growth and 918 00:32:09,365 --> 00:32:11,305 repentance and time to get better. 919 00:32:11,684 --> 00:32:13,605 And while we're getting better, we're in the 920 00:32:13,605 --> 00:32:15,045 arms of Jesus to use a book of 921 00:32:15,045 --> 00:32:17,924 Mormon phrase. But there are lines. There are 922 00:32:17,924 --> 00:32:19,464 some things or some behaviors 923 00:32:20,049 --> 00:32:22,849 where we say, okay, you need to step 924 00:32:22,849 --> 00:32:25,509 away from having an official covenant relationship 925 00:32:25,890 --> 00:32:27,490 and let's make things right and then you 926 00:32:27,490 --> 00:32:29,890 can come back into that. Yeah. And I 927 00:32:29,890 --> 00:32:32,289 do think it's, like, so important that, like, 928 00:32:32,289 --> 00:32:34,369 a key holder is involved in that process 929 00:32:34,369 --> 00:32:34,869 because 930 00:32:35,215 --> 00:32:37,295 the power of shame and guilt of some 931 00:32:37,295 --> 00:32:40,654 individuals where they'll actually restrict themselves from these 932 00:32:40,654 --> 00:32:42,975 ordinances when when it's not appropriate for them 933 00:32:42,975 --> 00:32:44,494 to do it. Or it's you know, because 934 00:32:44,494 --> 00:32:46,494 they're almost blinded by the shame they're feeling. 935 00:32:46,494 --> 00:32:48,735 And I think Elder Bednar had had talked 936 00:32:48,735 --> 00:32:50,690 about this. So, like, if the key holder 937 00:32:50,690 --> 00:32:52,529 says that you should participate in the ordinance, 938 00:32:52,529 --> 00:32:54,529 you should participate in the ordinance. Right? Don't 939 00:32:54,529 --> 00:32:57,089 restrict yourself just because you think you're not 940 00:32:57,089 --> 00:32:58,849 worthy of that. I think that it's so 941 00:32:58,849 --> 00:33:00,390 helpful to have that third party 942 00:33:00,769 --> 00:33:02,529 to say, to make the call rather than 943 00:33:02,529 --> 00:33:03,970 all of us trying to determine, I don't 944 00:33:03,970 --> 00:33:05,315 know, should I take the sacrament this week 945 00:33:05,315 --> 00:33:07,474 or shouldn't I? Or I mean, I've been 946 00:33:07,474 --> 00:33:09,555 better, but, you know, I think there's there's 947 00:33:09,555 --> 00:33:12,035 wisdom in that. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And, you 948 00:33:12,035 --> 00:33:14,355 know, bishops of course can discern when people 949 00:33:14,355 --> 00:33:16,134 need to take sin more seriously. 950 00:33:16,434 --> 00:33:18,289 Yeah. But they can also discern 951 00:33:18,669 --> 00:33:21,549 when people should take the their justified state 952 00:33:21,549 --> 00:33:23,869 more seriously. Mhmm. And that that grace is 953 00:33:23,869 --> 00:33:26,750 active in their lives. And so, in fact, 954 00:33:26,750 --> 00:33:28,349 I don't know, I've never been a bishop, 955 00:33:28,349 --> 00:33:29,329 but I would assume 956 00:33:29,710 --> 00:33:30,369 that bishops 957 00:33:31,015 --> 00:33:33,275 discern that people need to hear grace 958 00:33:33,734 --> 00:33:36,054 more than people need to hear justice. You 959 00:33:36,054 --> 00:33:37,994 know, if they're in that office that day, 960 00:33:38,134 --> 00:33:40,214 I'm guessing that that's probably what they need 961 00:33:40,214 --> 00:33:42,134 to hear more of, you know? Yeah. For 962 00:33:42,134 --> 00:33:43,835 sure. The shame and even the adversary 963 00:33:44,210 --> 00:33:45,730 does a pretty good job of reminding them 964 00:33:45,730 --> 00:33:47,970 of the justice that's going, you know, and 965 00:33:47,970 --> 00:33:49,890 and obviously kinda gets blown out of proportion, 966 00:33:49,890 --> 00:33:50,390 unfortunately. 967 00:33:50,930 --> 00:33:52,849 And on that note, you know, in this 968 00:33:52,849 --> 00:33:54,849 restriction and the relationship where we're talking about 969 00:33:54,849 --> 00:33:57,750 these things, it's been really encouraging to see 970 00:33:58,174 --> 00:33:59,554 the church and the handbooks 971 00:34:00,015 --> 00:34:03,054 be very clear that this isn't punishment that's 972 00:34:03,054 --> 00:34:05,054 going on. Right? Because when we're in a 973 00:34:05,054 --> 00:34:07,454 justified state, we're in relationship with God and, 974 00:34:07,454 --> 00:34:10,014 you know, maybe we, we sin because of 975 00:34:10,014 --> 00:34:12,059 unmet needs or whatever. It's not like, well, 976 00:34:12,059 --> 00:34:13,660 now you need the punishment. So we're actually 977 00:34:13,660 --> 00:34:15,900 gonna restrict the ordinances because we're kinda we're 978 00:34:15,900 --> 00:34:17,340 putting you in time out, you know, and 979 00:34:17,340 --> 00:34:19,119 you you should really think about this. 980 00:34:19,739 --> 00:34:22,300 Even, you know, scholars and also, you know, 981 00:34:22,300 --> 00:34:25,304 books, I'm thinking of Elder Anderson's book on 982 00:34:25,304 --> 00:34:27,144 what is it, the gift of Divine gifts. 983 00:34:27,144 --> 00:34:29,085 Yeah. The divine gift of forgiveness. 984 00:34:29,625 --> 00:34:30,824 He spends a lot of time on this 985 00:34:30,824 --> 00:34:32,444 as well that we're not restricting 986 00:34:32,905 --> 00:34:34,984 to punish them. We're not removing membership to 987 00:34:34,984 --> 00:34:38,105 punish them because, you know, Jesus justified all 988 00:34:38,105 --> 00:34:39,625 that. And then there's a fine line there 989 00:34:39,625 --> 00:34:41,630 of, like, we're actually trying to serve you 990 00:34:41,630 --> 00:34:43,630 well and maybe help you step out of 991 00:34:43,630 --> 00:34:46,030 that covenant and regroup so that you're ready 992 00:34:46,030 --> 00:34:47,390 to step in the covenant. Anything come to 993 00:34:47,390 --> 00:34:49,470 mind when it about this concept of punishment 994 00:34:49,470 --> 00:34:50,289 in this process? 995 00:34:50,590 --> 00:34:52,750 No. I think what you said there is 996 00:34:52,750 --> 00:34:55,214 is really helpful. And, I mean, at the 997 00:34:55,214 --> 00:34:58,114 heart, what of shame, what's going on there 998 00:34:58,174 --> 00:35:00,174 is someone is attaching their worth to what 999 00:35:00,174 --> 00:35:00,914 they've done. 1000 00:35:01,214 --> 00:35:03,375 And it's kind of the cliche, but everyone 1001 00:35:03,375 --> 00:35:05,295 says, you know, when people have shame, they 1002 00:35:05,295 --> 00:35:05,954 hate themselves. 1003 00:35:06,574 --> 00:35:09,030 True, good. But it's because their view of 1004 00:35:09,030 --> 00:35:10,949 the world is that someone's worth is based 1005 00:35:10,949 --> 00:35:13,269 on their works. But a Christian believes that 1006 00:35:13,269 --> 00:35:14,949 our worth is based on what Jesus did 1007 00:35:14,949 --> 00:35:16,469 for us. A better way to say that 1008 00:35:16,469 --> 00:35:18,550 is is actually a Christian believes that our 1009 00:35:18,550 --> 00:35:19,610 worth is manifested 1010 00:35:19,989 --> 00:35:22,425 by what Jesus did for us. We are 1011 00:35:22,425 --> 00:35:23,945 worth so much to God that he sent 1012 00:35:23,945 --> 00:35:25,625 his son. And so the way to to 1013 00:35:25,625 --> 00:35:26,605 get rid of shame 1014 00:35:26,905 --> 00:35:29,065 is to not tell people sin's okay, but 1015 00:35:29,065 --> 00:35:30,585 it's to help them to see that their 1016 00:35:30,585 --> 00:35:32,985 worth is not dependent on their works, that 1017 00:35:32,985 --> 00:35:35,324 their worth was established two thousand years ago. 1018 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,400 And then hopefully, when they can fixate on 1019 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,000 that, they can start to say, oh, I 1020 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:40,839 have worth no matter what I do. And 1021 00:35:40,839 --> 00:35:43,559 that actually inspires them to wanna do what's 1022 00:35:43,559 --> 00:35:45,159 right, to turn to this god who is 1023 00:35:45,159 --> 00:35:47,079 so loving and good that they want to 1024 00:35:47,079 --> 00:35:49,079 enter into relationship with him. They wanna keep 1025 00:35:49,079 --> 00:35:49,739 his commandments. 1026 00:35:50,199 --> 00:35:51,099 Yeah. That's powerful. 1027 00:35:51,614 --> 00:35:53,074 Here's a question I'll spotlight 1028 00:35:53,534 --> 00:35:55,394 in the the Q and A box here. 1029 00:35:55,614 --> 00:35:57,135 Would either of you be willing to speak 1030 00:35:57,135 --> 00:35:59,775 or comment on the intersection of religion or 1031 00:36:00,335 --> 00:36:02,914 in regards to sin and mental health, particularly 1032 00:36:03,215 --> 00:36:06,829 ADHD and or OCD with difficulties in sexual 1033 00:36:06,829 --> 00:36:07,809 development, specifically 1034 00:36:08,110 --> 00:36:10,429 pornography use. So I what I'm gathering here 1035 00:36:10,429 --> 00:36:11,090 is like, 1036 00:36:11,390 --> 00:36:13,230 you know, especially in a modern time where 1037 00:36:13,230 --> 00:36:15,710 mental health is such a prominent, you know, 1038 00:36:15,710 --> 00:36:16,769 experience, unfortunately. 1039 00:36:17,309 --> 00:36:18,910 Anything that come to mind as far as 1040 00:36:18,910 --> 00:36:21,070 addressing mental health in the context of sin 1041 00:36:21,070 --> 00:36:22,904 or justification and sanctification? 1042 00:36:23,364 --> 00:36:24,424 Yeah. When it comes 1043 00:36:24,724 --> 00:36:26,505 to OCD or scrupulosity, 1044 00:36:26,885 --> 00:36:28,644 which is OCD with sort of a religious 1045 00:36:28,724 --> 00:36:29,924 I'm sure a lot of all of you 1046 00:36:29,924 --> 00:36:32,404 know what that is. I've heard at least 1047 00:36:32,404 --> 00:36:33,144 two academics, 1048 00:36:34,164 --> 00:36:34,664 say 1049 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,780 that religious people don't necessarily 1050 00:36:38,079 --> 00:36:40,179 have more OCD than other people. 1051 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:42,880 And I and recently, Justin Dyer has just 1052 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,920 released worship I mean, worship, a research Yeah. 1053 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,400 That suggests that Latter day Saints actually have 1054 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:49,619 have less perfectionism. 1055 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:51,184 Yeah. Yeah. And so we did a whole 1056 00:36:51,184 --> 00:36:53,905 interview with professor Dyer that people would check 1057 00:36:53,905 --> 00:36:55,525 out. Yeah. Fantastic. Okay. 1058 00:36:55,824 --> 00:36:57,204 So for me, with perfectionism 1059 00:36:57,905 --> 00:37:00,784 and OCD, there's a theological element, which we 1060 00:37:00,784 --> 00:37:02,324 just talked about, which is justification. 1061 00:37:02,704 --> 00:37:04,005 But then there's a psychological 1062 00:37:04,704 --> 00:37:05,204 element. 1063 00:37:05,789 --> 00:37:06,849 And I particularly 1064 00:37:07,230 --> 00:37:09,630 think that acceptance and commitment therapy, the work 1065 00:37:09,630 --> 00:37:11,390 of Stephen Hayes, he's one of the most 1066 00:37:11,390 --> 00:37:12,369 quoted academic 1067 00:37:12,750 --> 00:37:15,730 psychologists in the world, is very helpful here 1068 00:37:15,949 --> 00:37:18,130 because often when people are perfectionist, 1069 00:37:18,735 --> 00:37:21,135 they're trying to tell themselves that they're okay 1070 00:37:21,135 --> 00:37:23,855 despite what they've done, that they're okay. The 1071 00:37:23,855 --> 00:37:25,695 problem with trying to convince your mind of 1072 00:37:25,695 --> 00:37:27,695 something is the more you take a stand 1073 00:37:27,695 --> 00:37:29,855 in your mind about a certain truth or 1074 00:37:29,855 --> 00:37:30,355 perspective, 1075 00:37:30,739 --> 00:37:32,659 the more your mind will produce reasons that 1076 00:37:32,659 --> 00:37:34,900 it's not true. Mhmm. And so you can 1077 00:37:34,900 --> 00:37:36,119 never ever ever 1078 00:37:36,500 --> 00:37:38,659 ultimately win an argument with your mind. It's 1079 00:37:38,659 --> 00:37:40,679 a word machine that's always producing 1080 00:37:41,219 --> 00:37:44,125 more reasons on both sides. The reasons are 1081 00:37:44,125 --> 00:37:45,485 complicated, but it has to do with the 1082 00:37:45,485 --> 00:37:46,465 nature of language 1083 00:37:46,845 --> 00:37:50,045 itself. Okay? And so I think when it 1084 00:37:50,045 --> 00:37:52,765 comes to mental health, I'm really drawn to 1085 00:37:52,765 --> 00:37:53,265 modalities 1086 00:37:53,965 --> 00:37:55,644 that invite people to sort of sit back 1087 00:37:55,644 --> 00:37:58,125 and notice the discussion that's going on in 1088 00:37:58,125 --> 00:38:00,340 their mind and not try to enter into 1089 00:38:00,340 --> 00:38:01,639 it. Really, 1090 00:38:02,019 --> 00:38:04,599 really kind and, you know, well meaning people 1091 00:38:04,900 --> 00:38:07,380 will often tell perfectionists, no. You're fine. You're 1092 00:38:07,380 --> 00:38:10,679 fine. You're fine without knowing that. And, indirectly, 1093 00:38:10,980 --> 00:38:12,119 that may be reinforcing 1094 00:38:13,464 --> 00:38:15,144 the insecurity that they have and then they 1095 00:38:15,144 --> 00:38:16,605 just come back for more 1096 00:38:17,065 --> 00:38:19,545 affirmation, they need to be told more. People 1097 00:38:19,545 --> 00:38:20,684 who overcome OCD 1098 00:38:21,224 --> 00:38:24,184 actually learn how to deal with uncertainty. They 1099 00:38:24,184 --> 00:38:25,724 learn how to sit in the uncertainty. 1100 00:38:26,300 --> 00:38:27,659 But I'd love to hear your thoughts, Stu, 1101 00:38:27,659 --> 00:38:29,900 Kirk. Yeah. That's the it's really as I've 1102 00:38:29,900 --> 00:38:30,400 done 1103 00:38:30,780 --> 00:38:33,579 more interviews about scrupulosity or OCD, it's really 1104 00:38:33,579 --> 00:38:34,960 interesting because naturally, 1105 00:38:35,340 --> 00:38:37,260 if we have a child or maybe a 1106 00:38:37,260 --> 00:38:38,940 ward member who comes to us and it's 1107 00:38:38,940 --> 00:38:40,864 like, you know, I did this thing, you 1108 00:38:40,864 --> 00:38:42,065 know, I I feel bad. I need to 1109 00:38:42,065 --> 00:38:44,224 repent again and again and again, or even 1110 00:38:44,224 --> 00:38:45,905 those that are like, you know, what if 1111 00:38:45,905 --> 00:38:47,105 we go on this trip and we get 1112 00:38:47,105 --> 00:38:48,385 in a car accident? You know, what do 1113 00:38:48,385 --> 00:38:50,065 we do with that? And naturally we don't 1114 00:38:50,065 --> 00:38:51,505 wanna say, oh, no, no, no. You're fine. 1115 00:38:51,505 --> 00:38:53,505 You're fine. It won't you'll be fine. It 1116 00:38:53,505 --> 00:38:56,190 won't happen. It'll be great. But it's the 1117 00:38:56,190 --> 00:38:58,750 treatment that's often encourages them as the person 1118 00:38:58,750 --> 00:39:00,750 responding like, yeah, maybe you will, you know, 1119 00:39:00,750 --> 00:39:02,670 maybe there is some concern with this sin. 1120 00:39:02,670 --> 00:39:04,750 Right. Because that uncertainty, that's what they have 1121 00:39:04,750 --> 00:39:05,969 to reconcile, not necessarily 1122 00:39:06,429 --> 00:39:08,849 the event that's happening. Right. Really interesting stuff. 1123 00:39:09,125 --> 00:39:11,204 Yeah. Anything else as far as sexual development 1124 00:39:11,204 --> 00:39:12,964 that comes to mind? Yeah. So the the 1125 00:39:12,964 --> 00:39:15,284 way I would talk about this is I'm 1126 00:39:15,284 --> 00:39:16,964 so appreciative of how the for strength for 1127 00:39:16,964 --> 00:39:17,704 youth pamphlet 1128 00:39:18,164 --> 00:39:20,484 reframes sexual feelings and says they're a gift 1129 00:39:20,484 --> 00:39:22,585 from God. Right? And so 1130 00:39:22,885 --> 00:39:24,730 I would probably, I mean, 1131 00:39:25,109 --> 00:39:27,750 everyone here knows this, but, you know, sexual 1132 00:39:27,750 --> 00:39:29,510 thoughts and feelings are a part of being 1133 00:39:29,510 --> 00:39:30,170 a human. 1134 00:39:30,469 --> 00:39:32,869 Is there a line where inviting them or 1135 00:39:32,869 --> 00:39:35,049 allowing them to stay, would that become sinful? 1136 00:39:35,190 --> 00:39:37,589 Of course. Right? The problem is is that 1137 00:39:37,589 --> 00:39:38,809 people become perfectionist 1138 00:39:39,429 --> 00:39:42,045 about an aspect of their very nature as 1139 00:39:42,045 --> 00:39:44,545 humans. We're partially sexual beings. 1140 00:39:44,844 --> 00:39:46,925 And so that's the part where we wanna 1141 00:39:46,925 --> 00:39:48,784 help people have wisdom and judgment 1142 00:39:49,244 --> 00:39:51,324 and say, no, God has given us these 1143 00:39:51,324 --> 00:39:51,824 feelings, 1144 00:39:52,230 --> 00:39:54,650 you know, for beautiful and glorious purposes 1145 00:39:55,110 --> 00:39:56,730 and help people sort of discern 1146 00:39:57,269 --> 00:39:58,789 what are the lines. And the church is 1147 00:39:58,789 --> 00:40:00,550 very clear. Scripture is very clear. We know 1148 00:40:00,550 --> 00:40:02,309 we know what the lines are. But then 1149 00:40:02,309 --> 00:40:03,210 to say, look, 1150 00:40:03,670 --> 00:40:05,269 those who have faith and repent and have 1151 00:40:05,269 --> 00:40:07,635 been baptized and received the holy ghost are 1152 00:40:07,635 --> 00:40:10,195 justified. And as they're striving how does the 1153 00:40:10,195 --> 00:40:11,974 temple recommend question say it? 1154 00:40:12,275 --> 00:40:15,015 Striving for moral cleanliness and thought and behavior, 1155 00:40:15,474 --> 00:40:17,015 they're justified. They're declared 1156 00:40:17,394 --> 00:40:20,349 clean. You know? And, yes, we're in the 1157 00:40:20,349 --> 00:40:23,150 process of sanctification and learning how to deal 1158 00:40:23,150 --> 00:40:24,050 with these bodies. 1159 00:40:24,510 --> 00:40:24,910 But, 1160 00:40:25,309 --> 00:40:26,849 ultimately, those who are faithful 1161 00:40:27,309 --> 00:40:30,030 and are doing their best are declared in 1162 00:40:30,030 --> 00:40:31,650 the right, declared clean. 1163 00:40:32,015 --> 00:40:33,855 Yeah. It seems like that the word strive 1164 00:40:33,855 --> 00:40:35,775 is much more prominent in the temple recommend 1165 00:40:35,775 --> 00:40:37,934 question. And it really is, that is a 1166 00:40:37,934 --> 00:40:40,574 sanctification word, right? Like, are you in it? 1167 00:40:40,574 --> 00:40:42,974 Like, are you trying, are you striving? Are 1168 00:40:42,974 --> 00:40:45,630 you trying to be striving for sanctification? That's 1169 00:40:45,710 --> 00:40:47,630 you know, you're not striving for justification because 1170 00:40:47,630 --> 00:40:49,489 that's done. And this is why, 1171 00:40:49,869 --> 00:40:51,389 like, a a bishop can be such a 1172 00:40:51,389 --> 00:40:54,109 blessing because some people tell themselves that they're 1173 00:40:54,109 --> 00:40:56,429 striving and they're really not. And sometimes people 1174 00:40:56,429 --> 00:40:58,190 really are striving, and they don't think that 1175 00:40:58,190 --> 00:41:00,005 they are. Yeah. And so a bishop can 1176 00:41:00,005 --> 00:41:01,065 help people discern 1177 00:41:01,765 --> 00:41:04,025 the difference there. Yeah. It's powerful. 1178 00:41:04,485 --> 00:41:05,684 Anything else in this, 1179 00:41:06,085 --> 00:41:07,525 as far as we we sort of touched 1180 00:41:07,525 --> 00:41:08,965 on a little bit, but I'm just thinking 1181 00:41:08,965 --> 00:41:09,864 of that individual, 1182 00:41:10,405 --> 00:41:11,065 the perfectionism, 1183 00:41:11,445 --> 00:41:13,569 you know, monster that creeps up so many 1184 00:41:13,569 --> 00:41:15,809 times. We we get the theology on paper. 1185 00:41:15,809 --> 00:41:17,489 We even understand it for other people. I 1186 00:41:17,489 --> 00:41:18,849 I remember hearing this so many times as 1187 00:41:18,849 --> 00:41:21,250 a bishop. Like, I get that other people 1188 00:41:21,250 --> 00:41:23,809 are forgiven, but not me. Like, with knowing 1189 00:41:23,809 --> 00:41:25,089 what I know or, you know, they have 1190 00:41:25,089 --> 00:41:27,775 a hard time giving that forgiveness to themselves 1191 00:41:28,155 --> 00:41:29,914 rather than to other people. But anything else 1192 00:41:29,914 --> 00:41:30,414 around 1193 00:41:30,715 --> 00:41:32,015 the concept of perfectionism 1194 00:41:32,555 --> 00:41:34,555 that is a cancer in this in this 1195 00:41:34,555 --> 00:41:37,675 doctrine. Right? Yeah. You know, the term forgive 1196 00:41:37,675 --> 00:41:39,355 yourself, I think it's I think I know 1197 00:41:39,355 --> 00:41:41,670 what people mean by that. And I think 1198 00:41:41,670 --> 00:41:43,530 in a lot of ways that that's true. 1199 00:41:43,829 --> 00:41:45,449 But imagine if I got into a disagreement 1200 00:41:45,589 --> 00:41:46,949 with my wife and I went to her 1201 00:41:46,949 --> 00:41:48,469 and I said, I want you to know, 1202 00:41:48,469 --> 00:41:50,010 Kirsten, I have forgiven myself. 1203 00:41:50,710 --> 00:41:53,130 And, you know, it's it's actually 1204 00:41:53,429 --> 00:41:55,210 one of the best things for perfectionism 1205 00:41:55,909 --> 00:41:58,894 is that my forgiveness ultimately is not dependent 1206 00:41:58,894 --> 00:42:01,775 upon me. Mhmm. It's what God has done 1207 00:42:01,775 --> 00:42:03,534 through his son and then declared me in 1208 00:42:03,534 --> 00:42:06,414 the right through my covenant standing. And because 1209 00:42:06,414 --> 00:42:07,875 it's not in my will 1210 00:42:08,255 --> 00:42:10,275 to decide if I've been, you know, justified 1211 00:42:10,335 --> 00:42:11,690 or not, then 1212 00:42:11,989 --> 00:42:13,949 that's good news. That's good news. That means, 1213 00:42:13,949 --> 00:42:14,710 you know, I can't just 1214 00:42:15,429 --> 00:42:16,630 I mean, I guess I could turn away 1215 00:42:16,630 --> 00:42:19,829 from it, from sin really deliberately. Right? Now 1216 00:42:19,829 --> 00:42:21,589 as far as individual sins, I mean, I 1217 00:42:21,589 --> 00:42:23,929 guess that that's something different, right, where someone 1218 00:42:24,125 --> 00:42:27,184 has someone forgiven themselves for individual sins. 1219 00:42:27,565 --> 00:42:29,644 You know, people I often hear them say 1220 00:42:29,644 --> 00:42:31,724 things like, well, you'll always remember the pain 1221 00:42:31,724 --> 00:42:34,304 associated with sin, and that's a good thing, 1222 00:42:34,444 --> 00:42:35,505 and that's fine. 1223 00:42:35,804 --> 00:42:38,829 But the very act of not trying to 1224 00:42:38,829 --> 00:42:41,869 remember a past mistake is the surest way 1225 00:42:41,869 --> 00:42:44,670 to constantly think about it. Mhmm. Right? And 1226 00:42:44,670 --> 00:42:46,989 so we have to learn certain techniques and 1227 00:42:46,989 --> 00:42:48,849 methods for sort of just noticing 1228 00:42:49,469 --> 00:42:51,389 the messiness of our past or our lives 1229 00:42:51,389 --> 00:42:53,905 or whatever it is and continuing to move 1230 00:42:53,905 --> 00:42:54,405 forward 1231 00:42:55,105 --> 00:42:57,744 while these, we're accepting and and mindful of 1232 00:42:57,744 --> 00:42:58,244 these 1233 00:42:58,545 --> 00:43:01,585 different difficult memories and and other things. Yeah. 1234 00:43:01,585 --> 00:43:02,324 Good stuff. 1235 00:43:02,704 --> 00:43:04,625 Now pivoting to the just the the doctrine 1236 00:43:04,625 --> 00:43:07,139 of grace and understanding grace. I mean, grace 1237 00:43:07,139 --> 00:43:09,539 is so redemptive at its core. I mean, 1238 00:43:09,539 --> 00:43:10,980 that's why I feel like it is at 1239 00:43:10,980 --> 00:43:13,539 the core of the doctrine. It's what there's 1240 00:43:13,539 --> 00:43:15,480 nothing more motivating than grace. 1241 00:43:15,780 --> 00:43:17,940 You know, it's just a sweet mortal experience 1242 00:43:17,940 --> 00:43:19,299 to feel the the grace of God. And 1243 00:43:19,299 --> 00:43:22,034 so how does anything as far as turning 1244 00:43:22,034 --> 00:43:24,295 individuals through grace or this justification and sanctification? 1245 00:43:24,914 --> 00:43:26,514 Yeah. The thing I would say is in 1246 00:43:26,514 --> 00:43:27,974 in Mosiah chapter four 1247 00:43:28,275 --> 00:43:29,255 eleven and twelve, 1248 00:43:29,714 --> 00:43:32,275 King Benjamin says, the more you remember the 1249 00:43:32,275 --> 00:43:33,494 fact that you were forgiven. 1250 00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:35,639 So, yeah, we can remember the fact that 1251 00:43:35,639 --> 00:43:38,139 we were forgiven for individual sins, 1252 00:43:38,519 --> 00:43:39,500 but also 1253 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:41,800 to remember that we have been declared in 1254 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:43,719 the right. He says, the more you think 1255 00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:45,880 about that in your own nothingness and in 1256 00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,280 God's goodness, he says, the more obedient you'll 1257 00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:50,485 actually be. And he lists off starting in 1258 00:43:50,485 --> 00:43:53,304 verse 12 and then thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen. 1259 00:43:53,445 --> 00:43:55,125 He says, you'll be kinder to other people. 1260 00:43:55,125 --> 00:43:56,885 You'll take care of the poor. You won't 1261 00:43:56,885 --> 00:43:58,344 allow your kids to quarrel. 1262 00:43:58,644 --> 00:43:59,385 And so 1263 00:44:00,085 --> 00:44:02,485 focusing on grace in such a way where 1264 00:44:02,485 --> 00:44:04,920 it doesn't become an excuse for sin, but 1265 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:05,579 it becomes 1266 00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,359 remembering how good God was to me in 1267 00:44:08,359 --> 00:44:10,280 sending his son. But also, it means that 1268 00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:11,880 I have all this security in Christ, so 1269 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:13,719 there's no reason to sin. And so to 1270 00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,039 help people dwell on grace and then teach 1271 00:44:16,039 --> 00:44:18,284 them that dwelling on it gives them the 1272 00:44:18,284 --> 00:44:21,244 security to move forward in diligence and obedience 1273 00:44:21,244 --> 00:44:21,905 and faithfulness. 1274 00:44:22,445 --> 00:44:24,545 Yeah. And this is, like, one of the 1275 00:44:24,684 --> 00:44:26,525 paradoxes of the gospel, which I I I 1276 00:44:26,525 --> 00:44:28,385 love so much of like, naturally, 1277 00:44:28,764 --> 00:44:31,085 when there's sin involved, when somebody's doing something 1278 00:44:31,085 --> 00:44:32,730 bad or, you know, we kind of feel 1279 00:44:32,730 --> 00:44:34,170 like, oh, we need to focus on that. 1280 00:44:34,170 --> 00:44:36,409 You know, let's dial in the, you know, 1281 00:44:36,409 --> 00:44:39,210 the internet filters and you gotta be accountable 1282 00:44:39,210 --> 00:44:40,889 to somebody and, you know, go to this 1283 00:44:40,889 --> 00:44:42,329 group and that group until you figure out 1284 00:44:42,329 --> 00:44:44,429 this, how to get rid of this bad 1285 00:44:44,489 --> 00:44:46,545 behavior in your life. But the paradox is 1286 00:44:46,545 --> 00:44:47,844 that more we recognize 1287 00:44:48,304 --> 00:44:50,885 the grace, the justification that's there, the sanctification 1288 00:44:51,105 --> 00:44:53,505 it's like, it does kind of orient the 1289 00:44:53,505 --> 00:44:56,304 mind towards Christ and that's the healer. And 1290 00:44:56,304 --> 00:44:58,304 suddenly you, you feel like, oh, I can 1291 00:44:58,304 --> 00:44:59,824 do this. Like you have hope. And it's 1292 00:44:59,824 --> 00:45:01,989 that hope that is really at the driving 1293 00:45:01,989 --> 00:45:04,550 engine of overcoming sin is knowing that I'll 1294 00:45:04,550 --> 00:45:06,710 figure this out. You know, God justified me 1295 00:45:06,710 --> 00:45:08,230 and I can keep going. I can keep 1296 00:45:08,230 --> 00:45:10,750 doing it. I'll get it. Right? So it's 1297 00:45:10,750 --> 00:45:13,795 it's paradox at times. Yeah. Absolutely. And there's 1298 00:45:13,795 --> 00:45:15,635 a lot of sacred paradoxes in in the 1299 00:45:15,635 --> 00:45:17,795 gospel. And one of them is an appropriate 1300 00:45:17,795 --> 00:45:20,135 understanding of grace actually leads to more obedience, 1301 00:45:20,195 --> 00:45:23,155 not not less, you know? Yeah. Really good. 1302 00:45:23,155 --> 00:45:24,375 And that's where oftentimes 1303 00:45:24,835 --> 00:45:26,614 this is sort of a subtle 1304 00:45:27,155 --> 00:45:30,589 cultural dynamic I've experienced over the years where 1305 00:45:30,809 --> 00:45:32,969 and I always give state parenthesis a tough 1306 00:45:32,969 --> 00:45:34,889 time. It's like, here they are like in 1307 00:45:34,889 --> 00:45:38,089 this leadership role and every six months they 1308 00:45:38,089 --> 00:45:40,250 get like this two hour window, maybe a 1309 00:45:40,250 --> 00:45:42,029 little bit more with, you know, the Saturday 1310 00:45:42,089 --> 00:45:44,114 night session of state governance. They get this 1311 00:45:44,114 --> 00:45:46,114 window that they can address the stake. And 1312 00:45:46,114 --> 00:45:48,594 so they can't help but default to the 1313 00:45:48,594 --> 00:45:49,094 behaviors, 1314 00:45:49,474 --> 00:45:51,635 the temple attendance, the missionary work. And and 1315 00:45:51,635 --> 00:45:52,135 sometimes 1316 00:45:52,594 --> 00:45:54,775 you can leave a state conference feeling like, 1317 00:45:54,994 --> 00:45:57,329 man, I'm just not, I mean, I'm not 1318 00:45:57,329 --> 00:45:59,569 doing enough. I got, you know, almost like 1319 00:45:59,569 --> 00:46:01,809 this burden of like, I was reminded about 1320 00:46:01,809 --> 00:46:03,489 all the ways I'm falling short. And it's 1321 00:46:03,489 --> 00:46:04,929 like, if you can actually go into those 1322 00:46:04,929 --> 00:46:07,730 meetings, those leaderships saying, just preach Jesus Christ 1323 00:46:07,730 --> 00:46:09,569 and his grace, not so much what they 1324 00:46:09,569 --> 00:46:11,505 need to do, but what he did. And 1325 00:46:11,505 --> 00:46:13,264 you will hit get a better result of 1326 00:46:13,264 --> 00:46:14,964 these, you know, quote unquote numbers 1327 00:46:15,424 --> 00:46:17,824 by preaching that, you know, preaching the grace 1328 00:46:17,824 --> 00:46:20,385 of Jesus Christ rather than the covenants and 1329 00:46:20,385 --> 00:46:22,625 commandments of of Jesus Christ that he that 1330 00:46:22,625 --> 00:46:24,065 he's given us. You know, it it's an 1331 00:46:24,065 --> 00:46:26,464 interesting dynamic. But any any thoughts there? Yeah. 1332 00:46:26,464 --> 00:46:28,250 I mean, I'm very interested 1333 00:46:28,869 --> 00:46:31,989 in how sermons or preaching changes people. Mhmm. 1334 00:46:31,989 --> 00:46:34,789 And there's no question that giving people a 1335 00:46:34,789 --> 00:46:36,170 vision of the savior 1336 00:46:36,630 --> 00:46:39,349 in concrete, real ways, we don't wanna be 1337 00:46:39,349 --> 00:46:41,510 overly descriptive about the crucifixion in such a 1338 00:46:41,510 --> 00:46:43,804 way that it's distracting. I'm not saying that. 1339 00:46:43,804 --> 00:46:46,605 I've you know, we've all seen that before. 1340 00:46:46,605 --> 00:46:48,844 It actually does it doesn't do very much 1341 00:46:48,844 --> 00:46:51,404 good. But to really give people a vision 1342 00:46:51,404 --> 00:46:53,585 of his love to help them experience it 1343 00:46:53,724 --> 00:46:55,424 in concrete terms through scripture 1344 00:46:55,839 --> 00:46:56,659 and stories 1345 00:46:57,199 --> 00:46:59,839 that can be really transformative. That invites an 1346 00:46:59,839 --> 00:47:02,000 experience with the Holy Ghost in ways that 1347 00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:03,920 few other things can do, you know. Yeah. 1348 00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:04,900 Yeah. That's powerful. 1349 00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,839 You know, one thing I yeah. I've, created 1350 00:47:07,839 --> 00:47:09,934 a tag in my gospel library 1351 00:47:10,315 --> 00:47:11,135 called justification, 1352 00:47:11,515 --> 00:47:12,015 sanctification. 1353 00:47:12,555 --> 00:47:13,775 And it's just really interesting 1354 00:47:14,474 --> 00:47:16,555 how embedded I I think I counted there's 1355 00:47:16,555 --> 00:47:19,594 thirty thirty seven, you know, tags that I've 1356 00:47:19,594 --> 00:47:21,755 applied to scripture and and to conference talks 1357 00:47:21,755 --> 00:47:24,250 and things. But this really is is like 1358 00:47:24,250 --> 00:47:26,029 this is at the core of our theology 1359 00:47:26,329 --> 00:47:28,650 where you know the different ways it's framed 1360 00:47:28,650 --> 00:47:31,289 like clean hands and a pure heart. Right? 1361 00:47:31,289 --> 00:47:33,529 We Christ helps clean our hands and then 1362 00:47:33,529 --> 00:47:36,264 just or sanctification helps us reach that pure 1363 00:47:36,264 --> 00:47:37,864 heart. And this is all over in the 1364 00:47:37,864 --> 00:47:40,824 scriptures of let me so like James four 1365 00:47:40,824 --> 00:47:42,585 eight, draw nigh to God and he will 1366 00:47:42,585 --> 00:47:45,224 draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye 1367 00:47:45,224 --> 00:47:48,204 sinners, and purify your heart, ye devil almighty. 1368 00:47:48,349 --> 00:47:50,349 So I'm trying to find a few others 1369 00:47:50,349 --> 00:47:52,750 here. Alma nineteen thirty three. And it came 1370 00:47:52,750 --> 00:47:54,289 to pass that when Ammon arose, 1371 00:47:54,590 --> 00:47:56,989 he also administered unto them, and also did 1372 00:47:56,989 --> 00:47:58,989 all the servants of Lamoni. And they did 1373 00:47:58,989 --> 00:48:01,230 all declare unto the people the self same 1374 00:48:01,230 --> 00:48:03,250 thing, that their hearts had been changed, 1375 00:48:03,655 --> 00:48:05,675 They had no more desire to do evil. 1376 00:48:05,735 --> 00:48:07,575 And so this dichotomy is just all over 1377 00:48:07,575 --> 00:48:08,235 the scriptures 1378 00:48:08,695 --> 00:48:11,494 teaching us again and again the justification and 1379 00:48:11,494 --> 00:48:14,235 sanctification. Any others come to mind or just 1380 00:48:14,295 --> 00:48:16,719 the scriptural dynamics of this doctrine? Yeah. So, 1381 00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:18,400 I mean, right there with King Lamoni's wife, 1382 00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:19,860 she says, I have been redeemed, 1383 00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:21,840 and she says it in the past tense. 1384 00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,000 Yeah. Alma the Younger says that in Mosiah 1385 00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,079 27. He says, I am in a new 1386 00:48:26,079 --> 00:48:27,140 state of righteousness, 1387 00:48:27,599 --> 00:48:29,199 and he says, I have been redeemed, past 1388 00:48:29,199 --> 00:48:29,699 tense. 1389 00:48:30,025 --> 00:48:32,204 And so this is not calling an election. 1390 00:48:32,505 --> 00:48:34,425 They have this confidence that they have been 1391 00:48:34,425 --> 00:48:34,925 saved 1392 00:48:35,224 --> 00:48:37,545 when they've turned their lives over to Jesus 1393 00:48:37,545 --> 00:48:40,025 Christ. Right in section 20, in what Elder 1394 00:48:40,025 --> 00:48:42,559 McConkie called the constitution of the church, it 1395 00:48:42,559 --> 00:48:43,619 says that we believe 1396 00:48:44,079 --> 00:48:44,659 in justification. 1397 00:48:45,039 --> 00:48:46,480 And then the next verse says, we believe 1398 00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:48,019 a man may fall from grace. 1399 00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:50,800 Right? And so it is all over scripture. 1400 00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:52,320 I think the reason why Latter day Saints 1401 00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,159 turned away from it is because some of 1402 00:48:54,159 --> 00:48:56,820 the ways it was taught by traditional Christians, 1403 00:48:57,184 --> 00:48:59,445 we didn't feel like fit into our theology. 1404 00:48:59,824 --> 00:49:01,184 And so what what we need to do 1405 00:49:01,184 --> 00:49:03,344 is have a discussion around this doctrine in 1406 00:49:03,344 --> 00:49:05,264 a way that says, how does this fit 1407 00:49:05,264 --> 00:49:06,164 in with restoration 1408 00:49:06,545 --> 00:49:07,045 theology? 1409 00:49:07,824 --> 00:49:10,039 Yeah. Yeah. That's really good. So how how 1410 00:49:10,039 --> 00:49:11,639 would you answer that question if someone said, 1411 00:49:11,639 --> 00:49:13,260 aren't you a workspace theology? 1412 00:49:13,559 --> 00:49:14,619 How would you respond? 1413 00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:16,539 I would say, no. 1414 00:49:17,639 --> 00:49:18,619 Perfect. Then I 1415 00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:20,679 and then I would say I mean, I 1416 00:49:20,679 --> 00:49:23,264 basically would say, do you believe faith, you 1417 00:49:23,264 --> 00:49:25,264 know, carries with it works? And then I 1418 00:49:25,264 --> 00:49:26,704 would say yes. And then the next question 1419 00:49:26,704 --> 00:49:28,304 I would ask them is I would say, 1420 00:49:28,304 --> 00:49:30,484 do you believe in once saved, always saved? 1421 00:49:30,545 --> 00:49:32,464 And then I would try to nuance that. 1422 00:49:32,464 --> 00:49:34,704 Most Christians don't believe in once saved, always 1423 00:49:34,704 --> 00:49:36,359 saved. And then I would, 1424 00:49:37,079 --> 00:49:38,519 yeah, I think those are the two main 1425 00:49:38,519 --> 00:49:40,119 things I would talk about is how do 1426 00:49:40,119 --> 00:49:42,539 works show up in a faithful life? 1427 00:49:42,839 --> 00:49:44,539 And then also I would say, 1428 00:49:44,839 --> 00:49:46,679 what's your view of once saved, always saved? 1429 00:49:46,679 --> 00:49:47,960 And then I might talk about what's the 1430 00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:49,559 role of free will is how a traditional 1431 00:49:49,559 --> 00:49:51,344 Christian would talk about it and the role 1432 00:49:51,344 --> 00:49:51,844 of 1433 00:49:52,385 --> 00:49:54,704 salvation. Can someone choose salvation or are they 1434 00:49:54,704 --> 00:49:55,764 chosen for salvation? 1435 00:49:56,065 --> 00:49:57,344 And for a Latter day Saint, we would 1436 00:49:57,344 --> 00:49:58,644 say it's a mixture of two. 1437 00:49:59,105 --> 00:50:01,844 God in his goodness gives us an opportunity 1438 00:50:01,905 --> 00:50:02,644 for salvation 1439 00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:04,780 through the work of the Holy Spirit, through 1440 00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,559 scripture, through missionaries, whatever it is, and then 1441 00:50:07,559 --> 00:50:09,480 we choose it as an act of our 1442 00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:11,639 agency. And so that's how I would frame 1443 00:50:11,639 --> 00:50:13,659 it. Yeah. Yeah. And I appreciate 1444 00:50:14,199 --> 00:50:16,059 that note with, you know, the more I've 1445 00:50:16,315 --> 00:50:18,235 engaged with, you know, pastor Jeff and other 1446 00:50:18,235 --> 00:50:20,735 evangelicals or, you know, traditional Christians, 1447 00:50:21,355 --> 00:50:23,594 it's, this is sort of the opposite trope 1448 00:50:23,594 --> 00:50:25,195 on our side. So many times I hear, 1449 00:50:25,195 --> 00:50:26,875 well, you know, Christians, they just think they 1450 00:50:26,875 --> 00:50:27,775 got to say, 1451 00:50:28,715 --> 00:50:31,195 I accept Jesus. And then that's it. Like 1452 00:50:31,195 --> 00:50:33,400 now that's very few believe that's a very, 1453 00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:36,920 like, superficial way of defining their theology. Just 1454 00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:39,019 like if somebody said, well, you're a workspace 1455 00:50:39,079 --> 00:50:41,559 salvation. Right? And I'm like, no. Like, what? 1456 00:50:41,559 --> 00:50:42,840 Where'd you get that? You know, they they 1457 00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:44,920 would respond very similar. I can tell you 1458 00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:46,599 another way where I think we differ quite 1459 00:50:46,599 --> 00:50:48,454 a bit. And I actually got this from 1460 00:50:48,454 --> 00:50:49,914 the work of N. T. Wright, 1461 00:50:50,215 --> 00:50:51,914 who's a a Protestant scholar. 1462 00:50:52,215 --> 00:50:52,715 But 1463 00:50:53,015 --> 00:50:55,094 a lot of Protestants, in fact, most, they 1464 00:50:55,094 --> 00:50:57,515 actually believe in what is called imputed righteousness. 1465 00:50:58,054 --> 00:50:59,755 And it's not only that that 1466 00:51:00,300 --> 00:51:02,880 God declares us clean or guiltless, 1467 00:51:03,420 --> 00:51:06,140 but he actually imputes the righteousness of Christ 1468 00:51:06,140 --> 00:51:06,960 to the believer. 1469 00:51:07,260 --> 00:51:08,960 So when God sees the believer, 1470 00:51:09,340 --> 00:51:11,260 he sees the righteousness of Christ is what 1471 00:51:11,260 --> 00:51:13,760 they say. Besides a a lot of issues, 1472 00:51:13,985 --> 00:51:16,465 the phrase righteousness of Christ actually doesn't show 1473 00:51:16,465 --> 00:51:18,005 up in the New Testament. 1474 00:51:18,465 --> 00:51:19,525 And Paul's understanding 1475 00:51:19,905 --> 00:51:21,744 of how a judge would declare someone in 1476 00:51:21,744 --> 00:51:23,844 the right would not mean that the judge 1477 00:51:24,065 --> 00:51:25,364 passes on his righteousness 1478 00:51:26,079 --> 00:51:28,319 to the person on trial, but rather that 1479 00:51:28,319 --> 00:51:30,960 he just declares them in the right, if 1480 00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:33,460 that makes sense. If you want a really 1481 00:51:33,679 --> 00:51:35,199 awesome book on that, it can be a 1482 00:51:35,199 --> 00:51:37,780 little technical at times, but it's called Justification 1483 00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:40,214 by N. T. Wright. And he really walks 1484 00:51:40,214 --> 00:51:42,074 through the scriptures and shows how 1485 00:51:42,454 --> 00:51:43,034 a simple 1486 00:51:43,414 --> 00:51:43,914 legal 1487 00:51:44,295 --> 00:51:46,614 declaration you're in the right is probably what 1488 00:51:46,614 --> 00:51:49,494 Paul meant and not that God imputes the 1489 00:51:49,494 --> 00:51:51,815 righteousness of Christ to the believer. But we're 1490 00:51:51,815 --> 00:51:53,734 getting very technical here. You invited a religion 1491 00:51:53,734 --> 00:51:55,599 professor and so Hey. That's I knew what 1492 00:51:55,599 --> 00:51:57,440 you were and I picked you up. That's 1493 00:51:57,440 --> 00:51:58,339 right. That's right. 1494 00:51:58,639 --> 00:52:00,800 Yeah. And regardless if people are actually gonna 1495 00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:02,400 maybe pick up any of these books and 1496 00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:03,760 read it, do yourself a favor. At least 1497 00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:05,599 go to YouTube and type in Tim Keller 1498 00:52:05,599 --> 00:52:07,839 and and then take some time to NT 1499 00:52:07,839 --> 00:52:10,034 Wright as well and listen to some of 1500 00:52:10,034 --> 00:52:11,474 their sermons. And N. T. Wright is often 1501 00:52:11,554 --> 00:52:13,234 does a lot of more like a lecturing, 1502 00:52:13,234 --> 00:52:14,994 you know, academic lecturing type thing if I 1503 00:52:14,994 --> 00:52:17,795 remember right. But really just insightful to hear 1504 00:52:17,795 --> 00:52:20,194 how they articulate the gospel. And there's that's 1505 00:52:20,194 --> 00:52:21,554 the thing with N. T. Wright is a 1506 00:52:21,554 --> 00:52:22,835 lot of Latter day Saints, correct me if 1507 00:52:22,835 --> 00:52:24,194 I'm wrong, a lot of Latter day Saints 1508 00:52:24,194 --> 00:52:25,530 scholars are drawn to him 1509 00:52:26,010 --> 00:52:28,190 because he has very similar ways of articulating 1510 00:52:28,409 --> 00:52:30,329 theology. Like, is that fair to say? Yeah. 1511 00:52:30,329 --> 00:52:32,670 I think one is his view of soteriology, 1512 00:52:32,969 --> 00:52:34,409 like we just talked about, I think but 1513 00:52:34,409 --> 00:52:36,170 I think the primary reason that a lot 1514 00:52:36,170 --> 00:52:37,789 of people are drawn to him is because 1515 00:52:38,010 --> 00:52:40,590 Doctor. Wright insists that the Christian story 1516 00:52:40,914 --> 00:52:42,674 can only be told in the story of 1517 00:52:42,674 --> 00:52:43,174 Israel. 1518 00:52:43,474 --> 00:52:44,755 And so he talks a lot about the 1519 00:52:44,755 --> 00:52:46,214 family of Abraham having 1520 00:52:46,514 --> 00:52:48,514 a responsibility to be a blessing to all 1521 00:52:48,514 --> 00:52:49,654 creation and humanity. 1522 00:52:50,034 --> 00:52:51,714 And so in fact, he insists that when 1523 00:52:51,714 --> 00:52:52,775 someone is justified, 1524 00:52:53,180 --> 00:52:54,539 a key part of that is now they 1525 00:52:54,539 --> 00:52:56,780 become a member of the family of Abraham, 1526 00:52:56,780 --> 00:52:58,400 which is, of course, something that we 1527 00:52:58,780 --> 00:53:01,180 deeply resonate with. There's gonna be some big 1528 00:53:01,180 --> 00:53:04,059 theological differences between us and NT Wright, but 1529 00:53:04,059 --> 00:53:06,640 in some ways, we read him and and 1530 00:53:06,864 --> 00:53:08,625 he really resonates with a lot of our 1531 00:53:08,625 --> 00:53:11,364 theology. Plus, to be honest, his demeanor 1532 00:53:11,664 --> 00:53:14,224 and the way he speaks really resonates with 1533 00:53:14,224 --> 00:53:14,724 us. 1534 00:53:15,025 --> 00:53:17,344 Yeah. He's not over the top. He's mild 1535 00:53:17,344 --> 00:53:20,565 manner. He's incredibly intelligent. He's very dignified. 1536 00:53:21,329 --> 00:53:22,930 And so, you know, in our in our 1537 00:53:22,930 --> 00:53:24,769 church, we like to keep things calm. And 1538 00:53:25,190 --> 00:53:25,610 Yeah. 1539 00:53:26,030 --> 00:53:28,130 And Andy Wright definitely fits that bill. But 1540 00:53:28,450 --> 00:53:30,289 And similar, I would think, you know, CS 1541 00:53:30,289 --> 00:53:32,369 Lewis is along the same vein where he 1542 00:53:32,369 --> 00:53:34,130 gets quoted so much in our in our 1543 00:53:34,130 --> 00:53:36,394 circles of religion. Right? That he had a 1544 00:53:36,394 --> 00:53:38,715 similar way of articulating things that was really 1545 00:53:38,715 --> 00:53:40,155 helpful. Similar to M. T. Wright. I don't 1546 00:53:40,155 --> 00:53:41,994 know. I don't wanna overstate M. T. Wright, 1547 00:53:41,994 --> 00:53:43,835 but yeah. Oh, I think so. Can I 1548 00:53:43,835 --> 00:53:45,514 say one thing else also about that? Yeah. 1549 00:53:45,514 --> 00:53:47,275 Sure. I think that often what happens there 1550 00:53:47,275 --> 00:53:48,635 is just that a Latter day Saint just 1551 00:53:48,635 --> 00:53:50,780 reads a traditional Christian, and then they just 1552 00:53:50,780 --> 00:53:52,619 realize there are a lot of ways that 1553 00:53:52,619 --> 00:53:55,019 we overlap with them. And then they think 1554 00:53:55,019 --> 00:53:57,900 that, oh, this one particular traditional Christian is 1555 00:53:57,900 --> 00:53:59,920 just like us. When in reality, 1556 00:54:00,539 --> 00:54:02,539 there are just a lot of traditional Christians 1557 00:54:02,539 --> 00:54:05,005 who, you know, are gonna resonate with us 1558 00:54:05,005 --> 00:54:06,525 because we love Jesus and we love the 1559 00:54:06,525 --> 00:54:08,525 Bible and all of those things as well. 1560 00:54:08,525 --> 00:54:09,105 And so 1561 00:54:09,405 --> 00:54:11,405 sometimes we think, man, CS Lewis must have 1562 00:54:11,405 --> 00:54:13,565 been a closet Latter day Saint, but in 1563 00:54:13,565 --> 00:54:14,065 reality, 1564 00:54:14,525 --> 00:54:16,605 it's just that we're all just Christians. We 1565 00:54:16,605 --> 00:54:19,569 have some significant theological differences, but there's some 1566 00:54:19,569 --> 00:54:21,750 real places where we overlap. 1567 00:54:22,289 --> 00:54:24,369 Yeah. Yeah. For sure. That's really good. Well, 1568 00:54:24,369 --> 00:54:25,109 if anybody 1569 00:54:25,489 --> 00:54:27,089 in the audience have a question you wanna 1570 00:54:27,089 --> 00:54:28,449 do, you can either type it in or 1571 00:54:28,449 --> 00:54:30,849 we always love if you unmute your mic 1572 00:54:30,849 --> 00:54:32,849 and and video, you can raise your hand 1573 00:54:32,849 --> 00:54:35,594 there. Britta, go ahead and unmute, and let's 1574 00:54:35,594 --> 00:54:37,034 hear it. Just, 1575 00:54:37,355 --> 00:54:39,515 wanted to say that this was really good. 1576 00:54:39,515 --> 00:54:40,655 I enjoyed it. 1577 00:54:40,954 --> 00:54:42,574 I like that whole idea 1578 00:54:43,355 --> 00:54:45,835 of sin is evidence of sins not met. 1579 00:54:45,835 --> 00:54:48,609 I would probably add to that that sometimes 1580 00:54:48,609 --> 00:54:50,070 it's also evidence of 1581 00:54:50,609 --> 00:54:52,469 skills not yet learned, 1582 00:54:52,769 --> 00:54:54,230 especially when it comes 1583 00:54:54,690 --> 00:54:56,849 to the sort of mortal challenges that can 1584 00:54:56,849 --> 00:54:59,730 make life awfully messy. Anyways, it was all 1585 00:54:59,730 --> 00:55:01,190 excellent and appreciated 1586 00:55:01,809 --> 00:55:04,355 everything that was shared. Thanks a lot. Can 1587 00:55:04,355 --> 00:55:06,275 I comment on that? Yeah, please. When we 1588 00:55:06,275 --> 00:55:07,714 say that sin is unmet need, I think 1589 00:55:07,714 --> 00:55:09,954 often too, it's helpful to say it like 1590 00:55:09,954 --> 00:55:12,914 sin is often people perceiving that their needs 1591 00:55:12,914 --> 00:55:15,074 have not been met in Christ. We have 1592 00:55:15,074 --> 00:55:16,755 to be so kind and so gentle about 1593 00:55:16,755 --> 00:55:19,019 how we tell, you know, people that they 1594 00:55:19,019 --> 00:55:20,640 really do have everything that they need 1595 00:55:21,099 --> 00:55:22,000 through the savior. 1596 00:55:22,380 --> 00:55:24,619 And that's just not, you know, cute religious 1597 00:55:24,619 --> 00:55:25,119 language, 1598 00:55:25,420 --> 00:55:27,500 but we can start to practice living in 1599 00:55:27,500 --> 00:55:29,835 light of that truth. And it changes us. 1600 00:55:29,914 --> 00:55:30,815 It really does 1601 00:55:31,195 --> 00:55:32,635 work. Yeah. And I and I appreciate that 1602 00:55:32,635 --> 00:55:35,355 framing of like this skill sets not yet 1603 00:55:35,355 --> 00:55:37,434 learned however you put it. I mean, there's 1604 00:55:37,434 --> 00:55:39,434 a reason why we give a newborn a 1605 00:55:39,434 --> 00:55:41,534 name and a blessing rather than an endowment 1606 00:55:41,675 --> 00:55:43,914 when they're born. Right? Like, can you imagine 1607 00:55:43,914 --> 00:55:45,614 putting them under that covenant because 1608 00:55:45,940 --> 00:55:48,099 you have to become that new creature in 1609 00:55:48,099 --> 00:55:50,019 order to step into a deeper relationship and 1610 00:55:50,019 --> 00:55:52,420 become another new creature. Right? And so, yeah, 1611 00:55:52,420 --> 00:55:53,239 there's definitely 1612 00:55:53,539 --> 00:55:55,940 purpose in all that. So Yeah. And the 1613 00:55:55,940 --> 00:55:56,679 good news 1614 00:55:57,860 --> 00:55:59,460 is is that in the words of the 1615 00:55:59,460 --> 00:56:01,239 church, we have been declared guiltless 1616 00:56:01,994 --> 00:56:04,394 while we're learning these new skills. You know? 1617 00:56:04,394 --> 00:56:07,134 Yeah. We're invited into the family first, 1618 00:56:07,514 --> 00:56:08,875 and then we have this time to get 1619 00:56:08,875 --> 00:56:11,034 better. You know, it's beautiful. In fact, it's 1620 00:56:11,034 --> 00:56:13,295 what the word gospel means. It's good news. 1621 00:56:13,594 --> 00:56:16,078 Yeah. And that's, it's just, just step back 1622 00:56:16,078 --> 00:56:18,086 and consider, you know, sort of considering the 1623 00:56:18,086 --> 00:56:20,094 cosmos here, like it's so motivating. Right. And 1624 00:56:20,094 --> 00:56:22,103 that's where I'm, and it breaks my heart. 1625 00:56:22,103 --> 00:56:24,111 And I've been in this places where, where 1626 00:56:24,111 --> 00:56:26,119 people get discouraged about the gospel, you know, 1627 00:56:26,119 --> 00:56:28,094 what's the deal like, is, is Jesus really 1628 00:56:28,094 --> 00:56:29,375 gonna keep me out of heaven because I 1629 00:56:29,375 --> 00:56:30,655 have a cup of coffee? Or, you know, 1630 00:56:30,655 --> 00:56:32,815 I hear some of these statements. I'm like, 1631 00:56:32,815 --> 00:56:35,215 nope. Of course not. Like, we're totally not 1632 00:56:35,215 --> 00:56:36,735 talking about the thing anymore. You know, it's 1633 00:56:36,735 --> 00:56:38,494 like, it's not about the coffee. It's not 1634 00:56:38,494 --> 00:56:40,815 about, you know, the garment or anything. These 1635 00:56:40,815 --> 00:56:43,720 are all part of these beautiful relationship that 1636 00:56:43,720 --> 00:56:45,320 grows. And so to the point where it's 1637 00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:46,920 like, you can tell me to stop eating 1638 00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:49,320 whatever you want me want. I'll stop eating 1639 00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:51,480 it because I just want that relationship and 1640 00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:53,320 desire so much because it's so beautiful and 1641 00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:53,980 and encouraging. 1642 00:56:54,375 --> 00:56:56,695 So Yeah. And and if anytime anyone ever 1643 00:56:56,695 --> 00:56:58,614 asks you, like, does this minor sin keep 1644 00:56:58,614 --> 00:57:00,534 me out of heaven? Maybe a helpful way 1645 00:57:00,534 --> 00:57:01,815 to frame that is just to say, well, 1646 00:57:01,815 --> 00:57:02,934 go to your spouse and say, is it 1647 00:57:02,934 --> 00:57:04,315 okay if I lie to you sometimes? 1648 00:57:05,494 --> 00:57:07,335 You know? And so, like, you know, a 1649 00:57:07,335 --> 00:57:10,259 small sin may not put our church membership 1650 00:57:10,319 --> 00:57:11,059 in jeopardy, 1651 00:57:11,359 --> 00:57:11,859 but 1652 00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:14,960 all sin creates a crack. Yeah. You know? 1653 00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:17,440 It really, really does. And so there's no 1654 00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:19,599 good news if we're not seriously in trouble 1655 00:57:19,599 --> 00:57:21,440 from sin. The key to this is not 1656 00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:23,505 to talk about sin and something like, you 1657 00:57:23,505 --> 00:57:24,864 know, it it doesn't really do it's not, 1658 00:57:24,864 --> 00:57:25,824 you know, it's not that big of a 1659 00:57:25,824 --> 00:57:27,585 deal. No. It's the biggest deal. It's a 1660 00:57:27,585 --> 00:57:29,664 cancer. Sin is a cancer that will destroy 1661 00:57:29,664 --> 00:57:31,505 all of us. The good news is that 1662 00:57:31,505 --> 00:57:35,309 it's completely wiped away legally, you know Yeah. 1663 00:57:35,390 --> 00:57:36,829 When we have faith and repent and get 1664 00:57:36,829 --> 00:57:38,430 baptized. And then we have the process of 1665 00:57:38,430 --> 00:57:40,110 trying to get the all of that sent 1666 00:57:40,110 --> 00:57:41,869 out of our lives through sanctification, you know. 1667 00:57:41,869 --> 00:57:44,269 But Yeah. Britta, do you have another comment? 1668 00:57:44,269 --> 00:57:44,769 Question? 1669 00:57:45,150 --> 00:57:48,684 Yeah. So I once attended a stake conference 1670 00:57:48,824 --> 00:57:51,385 in Saint Louis when the cardinals were in 1671 00:57:51,385 --> 00:57:52,045 the playoffs. 1672 00:57:52,664 --> 00:57:55,704 And literally, there was hardly anybody there, and 1673 00:57:55,704 --> 00:57:57,864 I heard one of the greatest talks ever 1674 00:57:57,864 --> 00:57:58,364 given, 1675 00:57:58,664 --> 00:57:59,804 a general authority, 1676 00:58:00,184 --> 00:58:03,485 70, that was from Raymond, Alberta, I think. 1677 00:58:03,780 --> 00:58:06,039 But what he talked about was the difference 1678 00:58:06,099 --> 00:58:07,239 between sin 1679 00:58:07,860 --> 00:58:09,480 and human weakness, 1680 00:58:09,940 --> 00:58:11,780 and that those are two things are not 1681 00:58:11,780 --> 00:58:12,440 the same. 1682 00:58:13,059 --> 00:58:13,880 And that 1683 00:58:14,579 --> 00:58:15,559 one of them, 1684 00:58:16,215 --> 00:58:18,535 you'd need forgiveness of, and you have to 1685 00:58:18,535 --> 00:58:21,255 actually know that it's wrong and intentionally do 1686 00:58:21,255 --> 00:58:21,755 it. 1687 00:58:22,055 --> 00:58:24,454 But what we need from the savior is 1688 00:58:24,454 --> 00:58:25,755 comfort and peace 1689 00:58:26,215 --> 00:58:28,155 when our human weakness 1690 00:58:28,889 --> 00:58:32,010 causes us pain or sorrow or heartache or 1691 00:58:32,010 --> 00:58:35,130 whatever. And he really distinguished those, and I 1692 00:58:35,130 --> 00:58:36,029 thought it was 1693 00:58:36,329 --> 00:58:38,730 one of the best things I'd ever heard. 1694 00:58:38,730 --> 00:58:41,049 And and it rings really true to me 1695 00:58:41,049 --> 00:58:41,549 because 1696 00:58:41,964 --> 00:58:42,944 there's an intentionality 1697 00:58:43,724 --> 00:58:44,704 in sin 1698 00:58:45,244 --> 00:58:47,005 and having to have a certain level of 1699 00:58:47,005 --> 00:58:47,505 understanding. 1700 00:58:47,964 --> 00:58:49,025 But often, 1701 00:58:49,324 --> 00:58:52,125 the things that causes a lot of our 1702 00:58:52,125 --> 00:58:54,525 discomfort and pain is the fact that we're 1703 00:58:54,525 --> 00:58:56,304 still painfully mortal, 1704 00:58:56,739 --> 00:58:58,039 and we're just 1705 00:58:58,500 --> 00:59:00,039 being human. And 1706 00:59:00,739 --> 00:59:03,140 Yeah. Any comment on that, Stefan? No. That's 1707 00:59:03,140 --> 00:59:03,960 great. I think, 1708 00:59:04,500 --> 00:59:06,420 sister Ulrich, what's her first name? Is it 1709 00:59:06,420 --> 00:59:08,660 Brenda? She wrote a book called Weakness is 1710 00:59:08,660 --> 00:59:09,400 Not Sin 1711 00:59:09,780 --> 00:59:12,014 about twenty years ago. That really talks about 1712 00:59:12,014 --> 00:59:14,275 that difference. So very helpful. Thank you, sister. 1713 00:59:14,815 --> 00:59:15,315 Awesome. 1714 00:59:16,014 --> 00:59:18,734 Stefan, maybe I I'd love your revival podcast. 1715 00:59:18,734 --> 00:59:20,414 Maybe plug that and anything else, 1716 00:59:21,135 --> 00:59:22,275 you need So I do a podcast 1717 00:59:22,574 --> 00:59:25,230 with Dave Butler. It's called Revival, and it's 1718 00:59:25,230 --> 00:59:26,829 about twenty, twenty five minutes long. And we 1719 00:59:26,829 --> 00:59:28,030 just talk about, 1720 00:59:28,590 --> 00:59:31,250 different general conference talks, the highlights from conference. 1721 00:59:31,469 --> 00:59:32,829 And then if you go to my website, 1722 00:59:32,829 --> 00:59:34,289 stephentager.com, 1723 00:59:34,429 --> 00:59:36,269 there's links to a lot of my research 1724 00:59:36,269 --> 00:59:36,929 and articles. 1725 00:59:37,474 --> 00:59:39,635 And if you wanna look more specifically at 1726 00:59:39,635 --> 00:59:40,135 justification, 1727 00:59:40,914 --> 00:59:41,894 declared guiltless, 1728 00:59:42,434 --> 00:59:44,855 justification by, in the Latter day Saint classroom 1729 00:59:45,074 --> 00:59:46,434 is where I really break this down a 1730 00:59:46,434 --> 00:59:48,515 lot. So and you can find, that online 1731 00:59:48,515 --> 00:59:51,150 for free. Love it. Alright. Give us your 1732 00:59:51,150 --> 00:59:53,150 latest favorite sermon that we all should go 1733 00:59:53,150 --> 00:59:55,710 listen to. Oh, man. Other than general conference 1734 00:59:55,710 --> 00:59:57,170 from a non Latter day Saint. 1735 00:59:58,909 --> 00:59:59,889 I heard one 1736 01:00:00,190 --> 01:00:02,210 from Tim Keller this summer 1737 01:00:02,765 --> 01:00:05,724 on Matthew seven on judge you know, the 1738 01:00:05,724 --> 01:00:06,945 judge not versus, 1739 01:00:07,405 --> 01:00:10,125 and it was about integrity and and really 1740 01:00:10,125 --> 01:00:12,925 self deception that was fantastic. In fact, it 1741 01:00:12,925 --> 01:00:14,385 was so good. I put it immediately 1742 01:00:14,980 --> 01:00:17,400 or a short time later into my homiletics 1743 01:00:17,460 --> 01:00:19,380 class. I have I have the students, you 1744 01:00:19,380 --> 01:00:21,460 know, listen to some sermons from different people, 1745 01:00:21,460 --> 01:00:23,140 but that was that was one I heard 1746 01:00:23,140 --> 01:00:24,660 a little while ago. That was really good. 1747 01:00:24,660 --> 01:00:25,940 Love it. You know? We'll link to it. 1748 01:00:25,940 --> 01:00:28,099 People can jump in. A little Tim Keller 1749 01:00:28,099 --> 01:00:30,215 in their life. So very good. Last question 1750 01:00:30,215 --> 01:00:31,675 I have for you, Stephen, is, 1751 01:00:32,135 --> 01:00:33,255 I mean, if you're in a room full 1752 01:00:33,255 --> 01:00:35,335 of church leaders and you just want to 1753 01:00:35,335 --> 01:00:38,135 encourage them about the doctrine of justification and 1754 01:00:38,135 --> 01:00:38,635 sanctification, 1755 01:00:39,015 --> 01:00:40,695 what would you say? I would help them 1756 01:00:40,695 --> 01:00:43,710 see the difference between being forgiven multiple times 1757 01:00:43,710 --> 01:00:46,269 for sin and the new covenant standing we 1758 01:00:46,269 --> 01:00:47,090 enter into 1759 01:00:47,390 --> 01:00:49,409 when we're baptized and all of the security 1760 01:00:49,469 --> 01:00:52,349 and, and grace and goodness, the understanding that 1761 01:00:52,349 --> 01:00:54,269 doctrine brings into our lives. And I'd want 1762 01:00:54,269 --> 01:00:56,315 to help them to see that difference. Yeah. 1763 01:01:01,175 --> 01:01:02,775 Now that we've reached the end of the 1764 01:01:02,775 --> 01:01:05,514 episode, I quickly wanna thank you for supporting 1765 01:01:05,574 --> 01:01:06,954 the leading saints podcast. 1766 01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:09,440 There's so much content out there to consider 1767 01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:11,839 and you picked this one. If leading saints 1768 01:01:11,839 --> 01:01:13,839 has made an impact in your life, we 1769 01:01:13,839 --> 01:01:15,920 would sure like to hear about it at 1770 01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:17,859 leadingsaints.org/contact. 1771 01:01:18,239 --> 01:01:20,480 And if you could quickly text or email 1772 01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:23,005 this episode to a leader you know, I 1773 01:01:23,005 --> 01:01:24,684 bet it will bless their life. You can 1774 01:01:24,684 --> 01:01:26,605 mark off your good turn daily and let's 1775 01:01:26,605 --> 01:01:29,085 even call it ministering. Okay. Maybe not that 1776 01:01:29,085 --> 01:01:31,405 far. But seriously, thank you and help us 1777 01:01:31,405 --> 01:01:32,385 share this content. 1778 01:01:42,369 --> 01:01:44,849 It came as a result of the position 1779 01:01:44,849 --> 01:01:47,909 of leadership which was imposed upon us 1780 01:01:48,369 --> 01:01:50,389 by the God of heaven who brought 1781 01:01:50,765 --> 01:01:54,065 forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus 1782 01:01:54,204 --> 01:01:54,704 Christ. 1783 01:01:55,405 --> 01:01:56,385 When the declaration 1784 01:01:56,684 --> 01:01:59,965 was made concerning the only and only true 1785 01:01:59,965 --> 01:02:02,364 and living Church upon the face of the 1786 01:02:02,364 --> 01:02:02,789 earth, 1787 01:02:03,429 --> 01:02:05,610 we were immediately put in a position 1788 01:02:06,070 --> 01:02:06,650 of loneliness, 1789 01:02:07,030 --> 01:02:08,570 the loneliness of leadership 1790 01:02:09,350 --> 01:02:12,250 from which we cannot shrink nor run away, 1791 01:02:13,030 --> 01:02:15,510 and to which we must face up with 1792 01:02:15,510 --> 01:02:16,970 boldness and courage 1793 01:02:17,510 --> 01:02:18,330 and ability.