Hey. If you think Leading Saints is just
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Hey. If you're a newbie to Leading Saints,
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join us.
I saw a comment on YouTube a few
weeks ago that related to a video and
somebody said, Hey, just stop doing the intro.
Just get on with the conversation.
And I get it. I mean, I would
love to just get on with the conversation,
but I wanna just give you a little
bit of a of a teaser sneak peek
because because a lot of these episodes,
you gotta stay to the end to get
all the goodness out of it. Okay? So
I wanna give you a little idea what
we're gonna talk about, and, I I record
these after I actually record the interview, and
so I know I know it's worth sticking
around for. And so definitely stick around for
this one because I invite in my friend,
Stefan Tager, BYU religion professor,
teaches New Testament and also
hemenetics
hemenetics,
the science of,
preaching.
He'll clarify that, get it all all straight
for me. But I recently heard him on
a different podcast, the Why Religion podcast, another
one you should subscribe to, where he was
talking about the doctrine of justification
and sanctification.
And this is so much at the core
of our theology.
And definitely in
the arena where leaders
are engaged in as far as teaching the
gospel, facilitating
repentance,
facilitating
ordinances and access to ordinances. They're this really
describes
the dynamics that are going on that maybe
superficially we look at and, like, why do
we do that? You know, why do we
restrict ordinances? We talked about that. Why do
we have covenants and commands? We talked about
that. And are we really saved? Like, why
do we say we're saved or redeemed in
past tense? Like, don't we really know that
yet? We talked about it. So you're gonna
love it, this interview.
I hope this is one of many as
we invite professor
Tager on the podcast, and, there's other, hopefully,
you listen to the past episodes we've done
with him as well. He's a good man
of knowledge and perspective, and, he teaches us
about the doctrine of justification
and sanctification.
Alright. We're, welcoming back, this time virtually, Stefan
Tager. How are you? I'm doing well. Thanks
for having me. Well, I appreciate you, you
coming on here. I always appreciate our conversations,
and I just had the opportunity
to attend, BYU education week where you were
speaking
and just you know, you talked about the
book of Mark and I thought, you know,
it's not a new testament year. I don't
know what I'll gain out of this, but
I was there and I loved every minute
of it. And,
it was awesome. So so you are a
BYU religion professor. Anything else worth worth stating?
No. I think that's it. As far as
this goes, I mean, that's yeah. My background
is actually in seminaries and institutes,
but I currently teach at BYU.
Cool. And what's your core like the classes
you teach? Like, do you teach one of
the, is there four or five of the
core religion
classes? Or Yeah. So I teach
New Testament a lot, and then I also
teach the Book of Mormon. And then I
also teach homiletics, which is the study of
preaching. That's what most of my research is
in, is actually in the study of preaching.
So yeah. And if you're disappointed that we're
not talking about is it hemolytics?
Hemolytics. Yeah. Hemolytics. Well, we did a whole
episode on that. You can find in the
library. So I I really enjoyed that one.
It was awesome. It was really fun. Yeah.
And I heard you on another I think
was it Why Religion podcast? Which is fantastic
podcast. You were on there talking about justification
and sanctification. Is that is that accurate? That's
right. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. So where did this
I mean, where did this focus come from?
I mean, obviously, it's at the core
of doctrine or theology, and so it's easy
to, you know, kinda trip over these principles
just talking about anything. But, was there is
there a story about focusing on this and
creating some content around it? Yeah. And I
think mainly, in all honesty, I because I
listen to a lot of sermons from traditional
Christians, I heard them talk a lot about
justification,
particularly
from a a traditional Christian preacher named Tim
Keller.
And I started to see how he used
justification
in his sermons both
to give people
a sense of comfort and knowing that they're
saved and accepted by God, but also justification
provides a motivation
for diligent discipleship as well. And so the
way that he talked about that and preached
about it was really interesting to me. And
then I wanted to see what our own
theology said about it, where we might differ
from some traditional Christians and and what what
does the restoration have to say about justification.
And it turns out it's very practical in
the way it relates to our relationship with
God and perfectionism
and how we know we're okay with God.
All of those types of things are sort
of orbiting the topic of justification.
Yeah. You mentioned Tim Keller. I remember he's
standing in your education week class that everybody
should quit their job and read everything that
Tim Keller has written. Right? Because he is
an impactful pastor and he passed away just
last year, a couple of years ago, I
think. I think two or three years ago
now. Yeah. Yeah. And our mutual friend, pastor
Jeff,
he described I mean, like, Tim Keller was
their president Holland. Right? Like, just as far
as his way he's articulates the gospel. And
I mean, everybody leaned in when Tim Keller
was preaching. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And he was
known for having a very successful
and thoughtful and inspiring church in New York
City. And he was actually really effective at
getting 20 30 year olds to embrace Christianity.
And so a lot of people were wondering,
how is he doing this? What is what
are his principles and practices of inviting
young, thoughtful people into faith? Yeah. That's really
good. So this, I really think it's important,
especially from a leadership standpoint to really understand
this doctrine of justification and sanctification and how
they work together,
how they, you know, what's the, practical
touchpoint of these doctrines. Cause oftentimes I think
for instance, you often hear the old trope
of like, oh, like Latter day Saints, they're
a workspace theology, right? And you're like, wait
a minute, no way we believe in grace,
but I think we're supposed to go to
the temple and do all these things to
be saved. But, you know, you kind of
get trapped in that where we're like, I
don't really understand it, but I've been told
we're not a workspace,
theology. And, but by understanding these two doctrines,
it really helps maybe frame
what's being said there, what what the accusation
is, and actually how our gospel
is framed in a way that, yeah, there
is like, there are commandments. There are things
that we do, but that doesn't necessarily mean
it's towards our saving, our salvation, but a
result of that. Right? But where's a good
jumping off point with to lead in this
discussion for you? Yeah. I think the probably
the most helpful way to start with justification
is to talk about how it relates to
forgiveness.
Because Latter day Saints, when they talk about
the atonement, particularly people who are struggling with
perfectionism,
we're constantly saying things like, well, if you
repent, you can be forgiven.
And for some people, that might be really
comforting to know that, of course, that would
be. But
the real question for someone who's dealing with
perfectionism
is sort of like, I kinda feel like
I'm never doing enough. And all the things
I'm doing, I don't know if those are
even I'm doing them well enough. And so
you can tell me all day long that
I can repent and then be forgiven, which
is true and helpful and should be taught.
But what about just sort of the everyday
experiences of living where I mean, you know,
like, I just where people just sort of
feel like they're kind of not measuring up
quite a bit. And so the church defines
justification in a very helpful and straightforward way.
In fact, let me just read it. I've
got it right here. It says, to be
pardoned from punishment for sin and declared guiltless.
And so someone can be forgiven multiple times
throughout their life as they repent, and that's
something that they should be doing continually repenting.
But justification happens
when someone has faith in Jesus Christ, the
kind of faith that leads to repentance,
they get baptized, and they receive the Holy
Ghost. And at that moment, they are then
justified.
And it's sort of like they receive a
new legal standing before God where they are
declared in the right. Paul, when he uses
the word justify, he's drawing on the Jewish
law court imagery
where you would have two parties and the
judge would say, you are justified or you
are declared in the right. And so forgiveness
can happen multiple times throughout someone's life, but
justification is the new state that we're put
into
once we enter into a covenant relationship with
God. And because I have that new state,
I can have confidence that I'm saved, that
I'm redeemed, past tense. In fact, throughout the
Book of Mormon, the word saved or redeemed
is used in the past tense, including for
new converts. So just like someone can walk
out of the ceiling room and say, I'm
sealed,
someone can walk out of the waters of
baptism
and say I'm saved. Mhmm. Yeah. I love
that. And having that confidence that the work
is done, and it's not so much on
what what we need to do as as
much as what Christ did for us. And
that is done and complete and over. Right?
Yeah. Like, a couple wouldn't walk out of
the ceiling room and say, oh, it's our
works that have sealed us. That's a gift
from God that they've received freely. And, of
course, they have to live in light of
those covenants,
and they have to be prepared to make
those covenants.
But, ultimately,
our salvation is a gift from god. So
then the question might be, well, then why
perform works? Why do I do that? And
this is where we might differ from some
traditional Christians, mostly reformed types,
people who embrace, like, a Calvinist theology or
reformed theology.
We don't believe in one saved, always saved.
And so although the requirement is not perfection,
in order to maintain a justified state, the
requirement is faithfulness.
In thirty five twenty seven, the savior says
faithfulness until the end. Sometimes I'll ask my
students, what's the difference between living faithfully or
faithfulness
and perfection?
And they can sense that right away. One
is striving to be diligent and loyal
to our father in heaven and his son.
And one is perfection means I can never
make a mistake at all. Right? Yeah. And
this is where it correct me if this
is this frame is a little bit off,
but this is why I think it's so
effective to frame
these ordinances and things in the context of
a relationship. Like we are now in relationship
together.
That ceremony happened and now, you know, like
a marriage ceremony happens, like you are now
married, you know, done. Right? Now there's obviously
a lot more that comes to that relationship
and it's a give and take and, you
know, you're learning and, and taking care of
each other on and on throughout our life
and eternity.
And that's where I, if I frame it
that way with my relationship with God, like
I stepped in the waters of baptism. There
was a ceremony that happened and now I
am justified. Like I am now in relationship
that there's something different about my relationship with
God in that moment. And that just progresses
more and more as we take on other
ordinances.
Yeah. And and the the marriage analogy really
helps here because just like in a marriage,
you know,
small acts of mistreatment or dismissiveness
towards each other wouldn't justify ending the relationship.
In a ceiling, there's time to grow and
change and repent and get better. Same thing
with baptism.
But contra
some traditional Christians, we do believe that there
are some lines. There might be some things.
I mean, there certainly are some things that
would justify ending the marriage relationship. And so
we believe that someone could sin in such
a way that they could lose their covenant
standing and justified state. Then I often will
ask my students. I'll say, well, then why
not commit all the small sins then? If
you if it's only big sins that cause
you to lose your justice, you know, justified
state, why not just commit small sins? And
the answer to that is very simple. Nephi
taught that Satan works like through a flaxen
cord.
Small sins that are left unrepented
will grow into
to the kinds and become the kinds of
sins that could cause us to lose our
justified
standing. So hence, the need for continual repentance
and getting better. But it's not a there's
a huge difference between saying,
someday, I hope to be saved and saying
in the words of president Oaks that we
are have already been saved from sin
conditionally.
Yeah. Those are two very different things. Someone
doesn't say, I hope someday I'll be sealed.
They say, now I'm sealed. And in the
back of their mind, they know that they
could lose that. But for the most part,
if they stay faithful and in the mainstream
of the church,
then they can expect all of those blessings
throughout eternity.
Yeah. That is by grace that we are
saved
after agreeing to be faithful to God, after
agreeing to be in relationship with him. Because
in order to be in a relationship, both
parties have to actually want to be in
the relationship. Right? God isn't going to save
us against our will. You know, God isn't
gonna bless us against our will. If we
just don't, you know, we don't want him,
he's not gonna force. He'll obviously always be
beckoning us to come follow me. Come follow
me. Come follow me. But definitely like that.
It's more of that faithfulness or that relationship,
that needs to be there.
Yeah. And there has to be a way
of of making sense of the small sins
while I'm in covenant relationships. So if I'm
impatient with my kids, there has to be
a way for me to make sense of
I didn't lose my salvation, but it's also
not okay
Mhmm. That I lose my patience with my
kids or something. And so or whatever it
is. And so and that understanding comes through
understanding what a covenant relationship is and justification.
I'm in this new state that says I'm
okay. But as a part of maintaining that
state,
I am trying my best to follow Jesus
and getting better slowly over time. You know?
Yeah. So let's take this to maybe a
real life practical
situation, you know, if especially for church leaders
where, you know, because sometimes
it's tricky. You want to there's this natural
desire to motivate the people that you lead.
Obviously you want them to be engaged in
the gospel. You want to be motivated in
the gospel, motivated in doing the right thing,
keeping the commandments,
you know? And so sometimes we have to
create this feeling of like, well, you know,
brothers and sisters, if we don't, we don't
go to the temple more, like we're in
trouble or like God's really disappointed in us
or man, you know, cause we were trying
to sincerely motivate them to engage in the
gospel because this is such a blessing. But
at the same time, we kinda have to
set that well, let's let's sure you're saved,
but we'll set that aside. Let's imagine you're
not saved and you need to go to
the temple more type of thing. Right? And
so how can a leader better understand this
as far as like creating a culture around
this concept of justification?
Yeah. I think this is where the work
of that homiletician,
Tim Keller sorry. That preacher I really love
named Tim Keller is extremely helpful. In fact,
there's a president Kimbell quote that I should
read to you.
Basically, president Kimbell says,
Jesus saw sin as
wrong, but he also saw it as unmet
need.
It's from Jesus the great the man what
is it? The master The perfect leader. The
perfect leader. Yes. Yeah. I'm looking for it
on here, but I can't find it. But
regardless,
the implication for that quote are pretty profound.
That means that often people are sinning because
they don't realize the security they have in
Christ. And so we we can try to
threaten people into doing what's right, you know,
and that might work on some level.
But when people
realize that they are in a covenant relationship,
that they haven't saved, justified,
that sort of frees them up to want
to be a blessing to other people, to
first and foremost
praise God and return love back to God.
The easiest ways to do that are through
prayer and to study his word and to
spend time worshiping him. That's just the natural
outgrowth
of being grateful that he saves sinners like
us. And then also because we're not so
self concerned,
we find the natural reaction to being filled
with so much love is to try to
serve others, whether that's in the temple or
in church callings, in our church communities,
or however it looks. And so I think
obedience is best framed as a response
to the goodness of God, particularly as manifested
through his son, Jesus Christ, and the sacrifice
on the cross. And then we can ask
ourselves,
how does knowing that free us up and
give us the motivation to do what's right?
How does that act create the response for
obedience?
Yeah. And that's really helpful of framing it
like sin or what appears to be a
lack of motivation. What if we were framed
as this is actually an unmet need? That
that's why way they're acting is so many
times as leaders,
you know, leaders come from maybe the crop
of members who've really dialed in the behaviors,
the the scripture study, the temple attendants, all
things. And so that leader naturally thinks, well,
I mean, I go to the temple. Why
can't they go to the temple? Or I
go to church every week. Why can't they
go to church? And so we often
misinterpret as like, obviously they're they don't understand
it enough. So maybe if I get up
there and really talk to them more about
this or that behavior or principle or commandment
or covenant, then they'd understand it. And then
they do it. When in reality, if we
can say, well, what if there's actually a
story there? What if there's an unmet need
that I'm just not aware of yet? And
if I understood that more, then we'd have
actually something to focus on. And there's so
many examples of life of the savior is,
you know, even the woman at the well,
like obviously addresses
her behaviors and maybe ways that she was
off, but it's more in this framing of,
like, you obviously have an unmet need. That's
why you are you have all these men
in your life or that's why you are
living with a man you're not married or
whatever. You know, I I think it's really
fascinating to approach it that way rather than
assuming it's a motivation issue. Yeah. I mean,
just take for example, and I've heard Tim
Keller use this example, take for example, the
sin of lying or the commandment to tell
the truth. Right? I mean, we could just
tell people try harder to be more honest,
which is fine, which is great. But instead,
what we can do is we can say,
why would someone lie? Well, often is to
protect themselves. Maybe one, they don't wanna get
in trouble.
Often people lie because they wanna be seen
a certain way. And so there are a
lot of relationships
that are really superficial because they're just so
polite,
and we should never be rude or dismissive.
But a lot of people
in marriages or families
or with friends
experience very superficial relationships because they have a
hard time being honest.
But if my security is in Christ, if
he accepts me and if I am accepted
in his eyes and justified redeemed, then I
don't need the cheap acceptance of the world,
And so I'm free to be honest. I'm
gonna be kind. I'm gonna be loving, but
I'm gonna fearlessly
tell the truth. We can do that with
any sin. We can see how, man, if
I am in Christ, if I if I've
been accepted in him and I have all
things through him, then I don't I don't
need to cheat, to lie, to steal, to
be dishonest, to break the law of chastity,
you name it. All of my
spiritual, emotional,
even temporal needs are met in Christ.
Yeah. Anything else as far as, like, teaching
this in award setting or creating it more
in the culture of like, you know, we're
not just trying to push everybody towards perfectionism.
We need to understand we're justified and that's
actually
a very, you know,
motivating perspective. It's like, oh, you mean it's
okay. I wasn't perfect this week. Like, yeah,
that's why you're at church. Right? Because you
are justified and you're ready to try again.
Right? Any anything else as far as just
having this
more prominent in maybe teachings or just in
Latter day Saint livelihood?
Yeah. In in an article that I published,
it's called declared guiltless justification
by faith in the Latter day Saint classroom.
I have a three step model, and so
maybe this is helpful. So one is to
examine the unmet needs or insecurities behind a
particular sin. We just talked about that. And
then two, explain how the atonement of Jesus
Christ and our justice justified state before God
means our insecurities are fulfilled in Christ or
met. There's no need to be insecure anymore
once we know that we're in Christ. And
then finally, highlight how our justified state before
God can motivate us to righteous obedience.
So that's one three step model. Another thing
is to do is to ask ourselves, how
did Jesus embody the commandment we're teaching in
our behalf?
So for example,
someone may be struggling
and saying, I don't understand all of the
things about church history.
You know, it's hard for me to stay
loyal at this moment.
And again, we have to be so careful
and wise. We're not trying to guilt people.
But one way to maybe frame that is
to say, Jesus stayed loyal
to his work on the cross. He stayed
loyal to us. Even when Jesus said, father,
why hast thou forsaken me? And so he
felt alone and yet he stayed loyal
to us. And so we stay loyal to
him even though we may not be able
to explain
everything in our lives. And so often, this
savior perfectly embodies
the principle we're trying to teach, particularly,
his work on the cross
for us, then we can frame obedience as
a response to that. Yeah. And you talk
about that loyalty. My mind goes to even
the process of weekly
participation in the sacrament. Right? Like, correct me
if I'm wrong, but, like, the premise of
the sacrament is that your week did not
go perfectly. And that's why you need to
come to church and partake of the sacrament.
It's almost like this,
this measure of I'm here because
I need Jesus to keep going through this
next week. But never has the deacon, you
know, rolled his eyes when you take the
sacrament. Like really? Like you were just here
seven days ago and you need the sacrament
again? Like, can't you figure this out? Like,
no, you can't do this without Christ. So
that constant justification or that constant symbol of
justification through the sacrament. Is that in line,
you think? Yeah. And I think we absolutely
can receive forgiveness
of particular sins in sacrament. But my understanding
of justification is that it's not like your
justification
disappears on Wednesday.
Your covenant standing and so
the sacrament prayer promises that the spirit will
always to be with us, and it will
sanctify us. And so, of course, repentance and
forgiveness is a part of it, but it
seems to be more
in connection with us sanctifying, in fact, where
our very natures are being changed and improving
as well as being forgiven for particular sins.
But I don't go on dates, you know,
on Saturday nights with my wife because our
ceiling
was canceled on Thursday. That just
you know? Yeah. Yeah. You know, we go
to church as a response
to god's goodness,
and it seems like it would be exceedingly
emotionally tiring
to think that, you
know, it's sort of like I I've gotta
keep paying rent or something like that.
Rather, it's, no. I wanna be closer to
god. He was so good to me in
sending his son, And so I participate in
the sacrament as a way to get clarity
on how I could be better and to
repent,
but not because, you know, every Thursday I
lost my salvation or something. Yeah. Yeah. That's
really helpful.
And, obviously, we haven't touched much about sanctification
at this point, but and obviously, these go
together and really important to understand together. Alright.
So what is sanctification?
Yeah. So this is what we talk about
a lot in the church. And so there's
probably not a lot of, you know, reason
to spend a lot of time on this,
but this is the process of being changed,
not legally, but by our very natures.
And so our thoughts, our feelings, our desires,
our actions change, and we start to love
goodness and truth and righteousness
more naturally. And this is a process that
happens over time. Justification
is an event that happens when we enter
into baptism, and sanctification is the processes
of us becoming more
like God. An analogy might be if we're
peasants and we're outside of the king and,
the king's castle, justification is when we're invited
into the king's castle,
and we can now enjoy all of the
the meals and blessings of living with the
king. And but sanctification is when the king
teaches us to become more holy
and righteous and just to become more like
him. Yeah. I love it. I think of,
like, there's often the
primary doctrine of, like, we lived with our
heavenly father before this life, and now we're
here in mortality trying to get back to
our heavenly father. And it's sort of like,
well, wait a minute. Why don't we just
stay in his presence
rather than leave it and try and get
back to it? Because I guess in theory
you could say, well, why didn't God just
justify us there in heaven and say you're
now justified.
And but the problem was there maybe wasn't
a clear way for him to justify us
in the in the moment or I'm sorry,
sanctify us in the moment. And so this
mortal experience is like, yeah, we're all justified.
We're all saved. And now we're in this
sanctifying process of, you know, striving with the
commandments and doing different things and, you know,
doing missions and callings and raising a family.
And the natural result of these things is
as we are in a relationship with God,
we are becoming new creatures. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Absolutely. And I think another way to think
about why doesn't God just justify us all.
And I think for Latter day Saints, a
covenant and faith and love of God couldn't
be authentic unless we could say no to
it, unless we could turn away from it.
Yeah. And so the the fact that I
can choose to enter into that covenant relationship
is the very thing that makes it meaningful.
This is why I'm very grateful that we
don't believe in one saved always saved because
a relationship is not authentic if I have
to stay in it. But the fact that
I can choose to stay faithful to God
is the very thing that makes it real.
Yeah. That's so true. I'm curious,
is there what about sanctification, the contact and
like you say, we sort of have this
figured out where, you know, yeah, there is
emphasis on commandments and covenants and temple work
and all these things we do because we're
being invited into sanctification. Not because we're necessarily
earning anything, but we're being invited to participate
with God in a beautiful
experience, even though, you know, his grace and
power is part of that sanctification
process as well. Anything else as far as
like, how do we do sanctification or promote
sanctification
in our Latter day Saint lives and worlds?
Yeah. I mean, I think the key to
understanding that is that the holy spirit changes
us over time, changes our very nature. And
so any activity that helps us to enjoy
the presence of God or his spirit is
the very thing that begins to to change
us. And then I've so appreciated what President
Irene has taught about how people can notice
how the the pull of sin becomes lessened
in certain areas of our life and how
we just start to enjoy that which is
good and true and beautiful and and holy
more naturally over time. If sanctification means my
life becomes more boring and more strict, people
are not gonna be very interested in that.
Right? But if sanctification means, you know, I'm
becoming something new, more alive, more in tune
to that which is good, more creative, more
hardworking,
more joyous, all of those things.
That's what people wanna turn their lives over.
They want a sanctification that enlarges the soul,
not shrinks it. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
So I wanna ask you, like, as far
as, like, the repentance process and even more
specifically, the repentance process when priestly keys are
involved, obviously, you know, with a Bishop and
so forth. And I'm gonna ask you an
impossible question. Question gets asked and debated a
lot. Just curious what comes to mind, but
in the context of this discussion of justification
and sanctification,
why do bishops
sometimes restrict ordinances?
You know, it's a that's a really good
question. The way I teach my students, and
let's just take this for what it's worth,
is that Jesus was really tough on religious
people
who were hypocrites.
Now I I would be really careful how
he teach this in public. You know, you
wanna be Yeah. You wanna be wise.
But if someone is acting like they're making
covenants
and they can't on some level live up
to those, not not perfectly, but they're not
in a state where they can really do
that in an honest way, then that's just,
religious hypocrisy.
It's funny because Jesus was the toughest on
religious people. Right? Yeah. And in fact, in
the Book of Mormon, the most wicked people
are religious people except Korihor, who don't have
faith in Jesus and they also ignore the
living prophet. That's the other feature you see
a lot in the Book of Mormon about
wickedness.
And so that's how I would frame it,
is it's not I would point to him
and how he would say, you know, if
you're gonna say you're gonna live like this,
you've gotta be prepared to actually live like
it. Yeah. And I think that, again, like
you said, the analogy of the marriage is
so helpful to understand that that maybe if
there's poor choices made by one of the
partners in the marriage,
it's not like the divorce immediately happens. It's
over. You're done. But there would be certain
restrictions. Right? That they could get to a
point where it's like, I'm actually not talking
to you tonight, you know, or you need
to move out for a while or to
the point that maybe it gets to more
of a an official divorce type thing because
that person is living in a way that's
not in relationship with what that covenant was
designed and defined as. And so to reconcile
that, we may have to restrict from time
to until you or or both parties are
ready to step back into a relationship as
it is defined. Is that is that a
fair analogy to use? Yeah. I mean and
I and for me, I would really frame
it as is, am I going to be
authentically living these things I promise to live,
or am I just not ready to do
it, you know Yeah. You know, actually live
like this. Plus, in our western individualistic
culture, it's really hard for us to make
sense of church membership independent
of just my own relationship with God,
but there is a communal and public aspect
to discipleship.
And the reason why I'm saying this is
because if people act a certain way,
certain things, they don't get to call themselves
a Christian
for a little bit. And sometimes people online
will say, well, you know, Jesus would never,
you know, restrict someone's membership. That's not true.
It's taught in Matthew chapter 18, and Paul
teaches it in first Corinthians chapter five. There
are definitely limits
where church leadership says, you know, that is
so serious
that
it publicly could hurt the name of what
it means to be a disciple of Jesus.
You know, Paul frames it as and this
is again something that is really hard for
us to understand in the West, but Paul
frames sin sort of as contagious.
And he says, you can't have that kind
of sin allowed in the community because it
will infect other people. And I actually think
that that's a very mature and nuanced way
of looking at sin. Sometimes people think, oh,
my sins only affect me. That is just
not true. Humans are built in relationship to
other humans. Yeah. So I think those few
things are at play there. One is, can
someone be authentic?
Two, can I really communally claim to be
a Christian if I'm acting in such a
way that it brings a negative
name upon the church? Right? And then also,
sin is contagious.
It really, really is. And So we have
to be wise. We're always kind. We're always
loving. We're never mean for the sake of
it. But it's okay to have boundaries around
ordinances. They're sacred, and people have to be
ready to enter into a covenant relationship with
God. Yeah. That's really helpful.
And I'm just thinking that this is a,
I don't know if this example would be
helpful, but I interviewed, Bennett Borden
who, was raised in the church
and
after his mission left the church, lived in
a, in a same sex relationship for about
twenty years or so. And during that time
he talks about his and then later came
back to the church and is still do
a wife and everything. But, but he talks
about his losing his membership through a membership
council
and the way that the stake president framed
it, he really appreciated basically saying we are
removing the covenant from you. Not as like
we're trying to be mean and other you
or whatever, but it's like you're on a
different path where you're not choosing this relationship.
So it's almost,
you know, we're trying to help you by
not being under this covenant which has clear
guidelines and guardrails and stipulations
of it. You know, I think that's maybe
a a helpful way to to understand the
kind of mechanics of what's going on with
this, but I don't know. Yeah. And I
think that the doctrine of justification teaches that
there's a lot of room for growth and
repentance and time to get better.
And while we're getting better, we're in the
arms of Jesus to use a book of
Mormon phrase. But there are lines. There are
some things or some behaviors
where we say, okay, you need to step
away from having an official covenant relationship
and let's make things right and then you
can come back into that. Yeah. And I
do think it's, like, so important that, like,
a key holder is involved in that process
because
the power of shame and guilt of some
individuals where they'll actually restrict themselves from these
ordinances when when it's not appropriate for them
to do it. Or it's you know, because
they're almost blinded by the shame they're feeling.
And I think Elder Bednar had had talked
about this. So, like, if the key holder
says that you should participate in the ordinance,
you should participate in the ordinance. Right? Don't
restrict yourself just because you think you're not
worthy of that. I think that it's so
helpful to have that third party
to say, to make the call rather than
all of us trying to determine, I don't
know, should I take the sacrament this week
or shouldn't I? Or I mean, I've been
better, but, you know, I think there's there's
wisdom in that. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And, you
know, bishops of course can discern when people
need to take sin more seriously.
Yeah. But they can also discern
when people should take the their justified state
more seriously. Mhmm. And that that grace is
active in their lives. And so, in fact,
I don't know, I've never been a bishop,
but I would assume
that bishops
discern that people need to hear grace
more than people need to hear justice. You
know, if they're in that office that day,
I'm guessing that that's probably what they need
to hear more of, you know? Yeah. For
sure. The shame and even the adversary
does a pretty good job of reminding them
of the justice that's going, you know, and
and obviously kinda gets blown out of proportion,
unfortunately.
And on that note, you know, in this
restriction and the relationship where we're talking about
these things, it's been really encouraging to see
the church and the handbooks
be very clear that this isn't punishment that's
going on. Right? Because when we're in a
justified state, we're in relationship with God and,
you know, maybe we, we sin because of
unmet needs or whatever. It's not like, well,
now you need the punishment. So we're actually
gonna restrict the ordinances because we're kinda we're
putting you in time out, you know, and
you you should really think about this.
Even, you know, scholars and also, you know,
books, I'm thinking of Elder Anderson's book on
what is it, the gift of Divine gifts.
Yeah. The divine gift of forgiveness.
He spends a lot of time on this
as well that we're not restricting
to punish them. We're not removing membership to
punish them because, you know, Jesus justified all
that. And then there's a fine line there
of, like, we're actually trying to serve you
well and maybe help you step out of
that covenant and regroup so that you're ready
to step in the covenant. Anything come to
mind when it about this concept of punishment
in this process?
No. I think what you said there is
is really helpful. And, I mean, at the
heart, what of shame, what's going on there
is someone is attaching their worth to what
they've done.
And it's kind of the cliche, but everyone
says, you know, when people have shame, they
hate themselves.
True, good. But it's because their view of
the world is that someone's worth is based
on their works. But a Christian believes that
our worth is based on what Jesus did
for us. A better way to say that
is is actually a Christian believes that our
worth is manifested
by what Jesus did for us. We are
worth so much to God that he sent
his son. And so the way to to
get rid of shame
is to not tell people sin's okay, but
it's to help them to see that their
worth is not dependent on their works, that
their worth was established two thousand years ago.
And then hopefully, when they can fixate on
that, they can start to say, oh, I
have worth no matter what I do. And
that actually inspires them to wanna do what's
right, to turn to this god who is
so loving and good that they want to
enter into relationship with him. They wanna keep
his commandments.
Yeah. That's powerful.
Here's a question I'll spotlight
in the the Q and A box here.
Would either of you be willing to speak
or comment on the intersection of religion or
in regards to sin and mental health, particularly
ADHD and or OCD with difficulties in sexual
development, specifically
pornography use. So I what I'm gathering here
is like,
you know, especially in a modern time where
mental health is such a prominent, you know,
experience, unfortunately.
Anything that come to mind as far as
addressing mental health in the context of sin
or justification and sanctification?
Yeah. When it comes
to OCD or scrupulosity,
which is OCD with sort of a religious
I'm sure a lot of all of you
know what that is. I've heard at least
two academics,
say
that religious people don't necessarily
have more OCD than other people.
And I and recently, Justin Dyer has just
released worship I mean, worship, a research Yeah.
That suggests that Latter day Saints actually have
have less perfectionism.
Yeah. Yeah. And so we did a whole
interview with professor Dyer that people would check
out. Yeah. Fantastic. Okay.
So for me, with perfectionism
and OCD, there's a theological element, which we
just talked about, which is justification.
But then there's a psychological
element.
And I particularly
think that acceptance and commitment therapy, the work
of Stephen Hayes, he's one of the most
quoted academic
psychologists in the world, is very helpful here
because often when people are perfectionist,
they're trying to tell themselves that they're okay
despite what they've done, that they're okay. The
problem with trying to convince your mind of
something is the more you take a stand
in your mind about a certain truth or
perspective,
the more your mind will produce reasons that
it's not true. Mhmm. And so you can
never ever ever
ultimately win an argument with your mind. It's
a word machine that's always producing
more reasons on both sides. The reasons are
complicated, but it has to do with the
nature of language
itself. Okay? And so I think when it
comes to mental health, I'm really drawn to
modalities
that invite people to sort of sit back
and notice the discussion that's going on in
their mind and not try to enter into
it. Really,
really kind and, you know, well meaning people
will often tell perfectionists, no. You're fine. You're
fine. You're fine without knowing that. And, indirectly,
that may be reinforcing
the insecurity that they have and then they
just come back for more
affirmation, they need to be told more. People
who overcome OCD
actually learn how to deal with uncertainty. They
learn how to sit in the uncertainty.
But I'd love to hear your thoughts, Stu,
Kirk. Yeah. That's the it's really as I've
done
more interviews about scrupulosity or OCD, it's really
interesting because naturally,
if we have a child or maybe a
ward member who comes to us and it's
like, you know, I did this thing, you
know, I I feel bad. I need to
repent again and again and again, or even
those that are like, you know, what if
we go on this trip and we get
in a car accident? You know, what do
we do with that? And naturally we don't
wanna say, oh, no, no, no. You're fine.
You're fine. It won't you'll be fine. It
won't happen. It'll be great. But it's the
treatment that's often encourages them as the person
responding like, yeah, maybe you will, you know,
maybe there is some concern with this sin.
Right. Because that uncertainty, that's what they have
to reconcile, not necessarily
the event that's happening. Right. Really interesting stuff.
Yeah. Anything else as far as sexual development
that comes to mind? Yeah. So the the
way I would talk about this is I'm
so appreciative of how the for strength for
youth pamphlet
reframes sexual feelings and says they're a gift
from God. Right? And so
I would probably, I mean,
everyone here knows this, but, you know, sexual
thoughts and feelings are a part of being
a human.
Is there a line where inviting them or
allowing them to stay, would that become sinful?
Of course. Right? The problem is is that
people become perfectionist
about an aspect of their very nature as
humans. We're partially sexual beings.
And so that's the part where we wanna
help people have wisdom and judgment
and say, no, God has given us these
feelings,
you know, for beautiful and glorious purposes
and help people sort of discern
what are the lines. And the church is
very clear. Scripture is very clear. We know
we know what the lines are. But then
to say, look,
those who have faith and repent and have
been baptized and received the holy ghost are
justified. And as they're striving how does the
temple recommend question say it?
Striving for moral cleanliness and thought and behavior,
they're justified. They're declared
clean. You know? And, yes, we're in the
process of sanctification and learning how to deal
with these bodies.
But,
ultimately, those who are faithful
and are doing their best are declared in
the right, declared clean.
Yeah. It seems like that the word strive
is much more prominent in the temple recommend
question. And it really is, that is a
sanctification word, right? Like, are you in it?
Like, are you trying, are you striving? Are
you trying to be striving for sanctification? That's
you know, you're not striving for justification because
that's done. And this is why,
like, a a bishop can be such a
blessing because some people tell themselves that they're
striving and they're really not. And sometimes people
really are striving, and they don't think that
they are. Yeah. And so a bishop can
help people discern
the difference there. Yeah. It's powerful.
Anything else in this,
as far as we we sort of touched
on a little bit, but I'm just thinking
of that individual,
the perfectionism,
you know, monster that creeps up so many
times. We we get the theology on paper.
We even understand it for other people. I
I remember hearing this so many times as
a bishop. Like, I get that other people
are forgiven, but not me. Like, with knowing
what I know or, you know, they have
a hard time giving that forgiveness to themselves
rather than to other people. But anything else
around
the concept of perfectionism
that is a cancer in this in this
doctrine. Right? Yeah. You know, the term forgive
yourself, I think it's I think I know
what people mean by that. And I think
in a lot of ways that that's true.
But imagine if I got into a disagreement
with my wife and I went to her
and I said, I want you to know,
Kirsten, I have forgiven myself.
And, you know, it's it's actually
one of the best things for perfectionism
is that my forgiveness ultimately is not dependent
upon me. Mhmm. It's what God has done
through his son and then declared me in
the right through my covenant standing. And because
it's not in my will
to decide if I've been, you know, justified
or not, then
that's good news. That's good news. That means,
you know, I can't just
I mean, I guess I could turn away
from it, from sin really deliberately. Right? Now
as far as individual sins, I mean, I
guess that that's something different, right, where someone
has someone forgiven themselves for individual sins.
You know, people I often hear them say
things like, well, you'll always remember the pain
associated with sin, and that's a good thing,
and that's fine.
But the very act of not trying to
remember a past mistake is the surest way
to constantly think about it. Mhmm. Right? And
so we have to learn certain techniques and
methods for sort of just noticing
the messiness of our past or our lives
or whatever it is and continuing to move
forward
while these, we're accepting and and mindful of
these
different difficult memories and and other things. Yeah.
Good stuff.
Now pivoting to the just the the doctrine
of grace and understanding grace. I mean, grace
is so redemptive at its core. I mean,
that's why I feel like it is at
the core of the doctrine. It's what there's
nothing more motivating than grace.
You know, it's just a sweet mortal experience
to feel the the grace of God. And
so how does anything as far as turning
individuals through grace or this justification and sanctification?
Yeah. The thing I would say is in
in Mosiah chapter four
eleven and twelve,
King Benjamin says, the more you remember the
fact that you were forgiven.
So, yeah, we can remember the fact that
we were forgiven for individual sins,
but also
to remember that we have been declared in
the right. He says, the more you think
about that in your own nothingness and in
God's goodness, he says, the more obedient you'll
actually be. And he lists off starting in
verse 12 and then thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen.
He says, you'll be kinder to other people.
You'll take care of the poor. You won't
allow your kids to quarrel.
And so
focusing on grace in such a way where
it doesn't become an excuse for sin, but
it becomes
remembering how good God was to me in
sending his son. But also, it means that
I have all this security in Christ, so
there's no reason to sin. And so to
help people dwell on grace and then teach
them that dwelling on it gives them the
security to move forward in diligence and obedience
and faithfulness.
Yeah. And this is, like, one of the
paradoxes of the gospel, which I I I
love so much of like, naturally,
when there's sin involved, when somebody's doing something
bad or, you know, we kind of feel
like, oh, we need to focus on that.
You know, let's dial in the, you know,
the internet filters and you gotta be accountable
to somebody and, you know, go to this
group and that group until you figure out
this, how to get rid of this bad
behavior in your life. But the paradox is
that more we recognize
the grace, the justification that's there, the sanctification
it's like, it does kind of orient the
mind towards Christ and that's the healer. And
suddenly you, you feel like, oh, I can
do this. Like you have hope. And it's
that hope that is really at the driving
engine of overcoming sin is knowing that I'll
figure this out. You know, God justified me
and I can keep going. I can keep
doing it. I'll get it. Right? So it's
it's paradox at times. Yeah. Absolutely. And there's
a lot of sacred paradoxes in in the
gospel. And one of them is an appropriate
understanding of grace actually leads to more obedience,
not not less, you know? Yeah. Really good.
And that's where oftentimes
this is sort of a subtle
cultural dynamic I've experienced over the years where
and I always give state parenthesis a tough
time. It's like, here they are like in
this leadership role and every six months they
get like this two hour window, maybe a
little bit more with, you know, the Saturday
night session of state governance. They get this
window that they can address the stake. And
so they can't help but default to the
behaviors,
the temple attendance, the missionary work. And and
sometimes
you can leave a state conference feeling like,
man, I'm just not, I mean, I'm not
doing enough. I got, you know, almost like
this burden of like, I was reminded about
all the ways I'm falling short. And it's
like, if you can actually go into those
meetings, those leaderships saying, just preach Jesus Christ
and his grace, not so much what they
need to do, but what he did. And
you will hit get a better result of
these, you know, quote unquote numbers
by preaching that, you know, preaching the grace
of Jesus Christ rather than the covenants and
commandments of of Jesus Christ that he that
he's given us. You know, it it's an
interesting dynamic. But any any thoughts there? Yeah.
I mean, I'm very interested
in how sermons or preaching changes people. Mhmm.
And there's no question that giving people a
vision of the savior
in concrete, real ways, we don't wanna be
overly descriptive about the crucifixion in such a
way that it's distracting. I'm not saying that.
I've you know, we've all seen that before.
It actually does it doesn't do very much
good. But to really give people a vision
of his love to help them experience it
in concrete terms through scripture
and stories
that can be really transformative. That invites an
experience with the Holy Ghost in ways that
few other things can do, you know. Yeah.
Yeah. That's powerful.
You know, one thing I yeah. I've, created
a tag in my gospel library
called justification,
sanctification.
And it's just really interesting
how embedded I I think I counted there's
thirty thirty seven, you know, tags that I've
applied to scripture and and to conference talks
and things. But this really is is like
this is at the core of our theology
where you know the different ways it's framed
like clean hands and a pure heart. Right?
We Christ helps clean our hands and then
just or sanctification helps us reach that pure
heart. And this is all over in the
scriptures of let me so like James four
eight, draw nigh to God and he will
draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye
sinners, and purify your heart, ye devil almighty.
So I'm trying to find a few others
here. Alma nineteen thirty three. And it came
to pass that when Ammon arose,
he also administered unto them, and also did
all the servants of Lamoni. And they did
all declare unto the people the self same
thing, that their hearts had been changed,
They had no more desire to do evil.
And so this dichotomy is just all over
the scriptures
teaching us again and again the justification and
sanctification. Any others come to mind or just
the scriptural dynamics of this doctrine? Yeah. So,
I mean, right there with King Lamoni's wife,
she says, I have been redeemed,
and she says it in the past tense.
Yeah. Alma the Younger says that in Mosiah
27. He says, I am in a new
state of righteousness,
and he says, I have been redeemed, past
tense.
And so this is not calling an election.
They have this confidence that they have been
saved
when they've turned their lives over to Jesus
Christ. Right in section 20, in what Elder
McConkie called the constitution of the church, it
says that we believe
in justification.
And then the next verse says, we believe
a man may fall from grace.
Right? And so it is all over scripture.
I think the reason why Latter day Saints
turned away from it is because some of
the ways it was taught by traditional Christians,
we didn't feel like fit into our theology.
And so what what we need to do
is have a discussion around this doctrine in
a way that says, how does this fit
in with restoration
theology?
Yeah. Yeah. That's really good. So how how
would you answer that question if someone said,
aren't you a workspace theology?
How would you respond?
I would say, no.
Perfect. Then I
and then I would say I mean, I
basically would say, do you believe faith, you
know, carries with it works? And then I
would say yes. And then the next question
I would ask them is I would say,
do you believe in once saved, always saved?
And then I would try to nuance that.
Most Christians don't believe in once saved, always
saved. And then I would,
yeah, I think those are the two main
things I would talk about is how do
works show up in a faithful life?
And then also I would say,
what's your view of once saved, always saved?
And then I might talk about what's the
role of free will is how a traditional
Christian would talk about it and the role
of
salvation. Can someone choose salvation or are they
chosen for salvation?
And for a Latter day Saint, we would
say it's a mixture of two.
God in his goodness gives us an opportunity
for salvation
through the work of the Holy Spirit, through
scripture, through missionaries, whatever it is, and then
we choose it as an act of our
agency. And so that's how I would frame
it. Yeah. Yeah. And I appreciate
that note with, you know, the more I've
engaged with, you know, pastor Jeff and other
evangelicals or, you know, traditional Christians,
it's, this is sort of the opposite trope
on our side. So many times I hear,
well, you know, Christians, they just think they
got to say,
I accept Jesus. And then that's it. Like
now that's very few believe that's a very,
like, superficial way of defining their theology. Just
like if somebody said, well, you're a workspace
salvation. Right? And I'm like, no. Like, what?
Where'd you get that? You know, they they
would respond very similar. I can tell you
another way where I think we differ quite
a bit. And I actually got this from
the work of N. T. Wright,
who's a a Protestant scholar.
But
a lot of Protestants, in fact, most, they
actually believe in what is called imputed righteousness.
And it's not only that that
God declares us clean or guiltless,
but he actually imputes the righteousness of Christ
to the believer.
So when God sees the believer,
he sees the righteousness of Christ is what
they say. Besides a a lot of issues,
the phrase righteousness of Christ actually doesn't show
up in the New Testament.
And Paul's understanding
of how a judge would declare someone in
the right would not mean that the judge
passes on his righteousness
to the person on trial, but rather that
he just declares them in the right, if
that makes sense. If you want a really
awesome book on that, it can be a
little technical at times, but it's called Justification
by N. T. Wright. And he really walks
through the scriptures and shows how
a simple
legal
declaration you're in the right is probably what
Paul meant and not that God imputes the
righteousness of Christ to the believer. But we're
getting very technical here. You invited a religion
professor and so Hey. That's I knew what
you were and I picked you up. That's
right. That's right.
Yeah. And regardless if people are actually gonna
maybe pick up any of these books and
read it, do yourself a favor. At least
go to YouTube and type in Tim Keller
and and then take some time to NT
Wright as well and listen to some of
their sermons. And N. T. Wright is often
does a lot of more like a lecturing,
you know, academic lecturing type thing if I
remember right. But really just insightful to hear
how they articulate the gospel. And there's that's
the thing with N. T. Wright is a
lot of Latter day Saints, correct me if
I'm wrong, a lot of Latter day Saints
scholars are drawn to him
because he has very similar ways of articulating
theology. Like, is that fair to say? Yeah.
I think one is his view of soteriology,
like we just talked about, I think but
I think the primary reason that a lot
of people are drawn to him is because
Doctor. Wright insists that the Christian story
can only be told in the story of
Israel.
And so he talks a lot about the
family of Abraham having
a responsibility to be a blessing to all
creation and humanity.
And so in fact, he insists that when
someone is justified,
a key part of that is now they
become a member of the family of Abraham,
which is, of course, something that we
deeply resonate with. There's gonna be some big
theological differences between us and NT Wright, but
in some ways, we read him and and
he really resonates with a lot of our
theology. Plus, to be honest, his demeanor
and the way he speaks really resonates with
us.
Yeah. He's not over the top. He's mild
manner. He's incredibly intelligent. He's very dignified.
And so, you know, in our in our
church, we like to keep things calm. And
Yeah.
And Andy Wright definitely fits that bill. But
And similar, I would think, you know, CS
Lewis is along the same vein where he
gets quoted so much in our in our
circles of religion. Right? That he had a
similar way of articulating things that was really
helpful. Similar to M. T. Wright. I don't
know. I don't wanna overstate M. T. Wright,
but yeah. Oh, I think so. Can I
say one thing else also about that? Yeah.
Sure. I think that often what happens there
is just that a Latter day Saint just
reads a traditional Christian, and then they just
realize there are a lot of ways that
we overlap with them. And then they think
that, oh, this one particular traditional Christian is
just like us. When in reality,
there are just a lot of traditional Christians
who, you know, are gonna resonate with us
because we love Jesus and we love the
Bible and all of those things as well.
And so
sometimes we think, man, CS Lewis must have
been a closet Latter day Saint, but in
reality,
it's just that we're all just Christians. We
have some significant theological differences, but there's some
real places where we overlap.
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. That's really good. Well,
if anybody
in the audience have a question you wanna
do, you can either type it in or
we always love if you unmute your mic
and and video, you can raise your hand
there. Britta, go ahead and unmute, and let's
hear it. Just,
wanted to say that this was really good.
I enjoyed it.
I like that whole idea
of sin is evidence of sins not met.
I would probably add to that that sometimes
it's also evidence of
skills not yet learned,
especially when it comes
to the sort of mortal challenges that can
make life awfully messy. Anyways, it was all
excellent and appreciated
everything that was shared. Thanks a lot. Can
I comment on that? Yeah, please. When we
say that sin is unmet need, I think
often too, it's helpful to say it like
sin is often people perceiving that their needs
have not been met in Christ. We have
to be so kind and so gentle about
how we tell, you know, people that they
really do have everything that they need
through the savior.
And that's just not, you know, cute religious
language,
but we can start to practice living in
light of that truth. And it changes us.
It really does
work. Yeah. And I and I appreciate that
framing of like this skill sets not yet
learned however you put it. I mean, there's
a reason why we give a newborn a
name and a blessing rather than an endowment
when they're born. Right? Like, can you imagine
putting them under that covenant because
you have to become that new creature in
order to step into a deeper relationship and
become another new creature. Right? And so, yeah,
there's definitely
purpose in all that. So Yeah. And the
good news
is is that in the words of the
church, we have been declared guiltless
while we're learning these new skills. You know?
Yeah. We're invited into the family first,
and then we have this time to get
better. You know, it's beautiful. In fact, it's
what the word gospel means. It's good news.
Yeah. And that's, it's just, just step back
and consider, you know, sort of considering the
cosmos here, like it's so motivating. Right. And
that's where I'm, and it breaks my heart.
And I've been in this places where, where
people get discouraged about the gospel, you know,
what's the deal like, is, is Jesus really
gonna keep me out of heaven because I
have a cup of coffee? Or, you know,
I hear some of these statements. I'm like,
nope. Of course not. Like, we're totally not
talking about the thing anymore. You know, it's
like, it's not about the coffee. It's not
about, you know, the garment or anything. These
are all part of these beautiful relationship that
grows. And so to the point where it's
like, you can tell me to stop eating
whatever you want me want. I'll stop eating
it because I just want that relationship and
desire so much because it's so beautiful and
and encouraging.
So Yeah. And and if anytime anyone ever
asks you, like, does this minor sin keep
me out of heaven? Maybe a helpful way
to frame that is just to say, well,
go to your spouse and say, is it
okay if I lie to you sometimes?
You know? And so, like, you know, a
small sin may not put our church membership
in jeopardy,
but
all sin creates a crack. Yeah. You know?
It really, really does. And so there's no
good news if we're not seriously in trouble
from sin. The key to this is not
to talk about sin and something like, you
know, it it doesn't really do it's not,
you know, it's not that big of a
deal. No. It's the biggest deal. It's a
cancer. Sin is a cancer that will destroy
all of us. The good news is that
it's completely wiped away legally, you know Yeah.
When we have faith and repent and get
baptized. And then we have the process of
trying to get the all of that sent
out of our lives through sanctification, you know.
But Yeah. Britta, do you have another comment?
Question?
Yeah. So I once attended a stake conference
in Saint Louis when the cardinals were in
the playoffs.
And literally, there was hardly anybody there, and
I heard one of the greatest talks ever
given,
a general authority,
70, that was from Raymond, Alberta, I think.
But what he talked about was the difference
between sin
and human weakness,
and that those are two things are not
the same.
And that
one of them,
you'd need forgiveness of, and you have to
actually know that it's wrong and intentionally do
it.
But what we need from the savior is
comfort and peace
when our human weakness
causes us pain or sorrow or heartache or
whatever. And he really distinguished those, and I
thought it was
one of the best things I'd ever heard.
And and it rings really true to me
because
there's an intentionality
in sin
and having to have a certain level of
understanding.
But often,
the things that causes a lot of our
discomfort and pain is the fact that we're
still painfully mortal,
and we're just
being human. And
Yeah. Any comment on that, Stefan? No. That's
great. I think,
sister Ulrich, what's her first name? Is it
Brenda? She wrote a book called Weakness is
Not Sin
about twenty years ago. That really talks about
that difference. So very helpful. Thank you, sister.
Awesome.
Stefan, maybe I I'd love your revival podcast.
Maybe plug that and anything else,
you need So I do a podcast
with Dave Butler. It's called Revival, and it's
about twenty, twenty five minutes long. And we
just talk about,
different general conference talks, the highlights from conference.
And then if you go to my website,
stephentager.com,
there's links to a lot of my research
and articles.
And if you wanna look more specifically at
justification,
declared guiltless,
justification by, in the Latter day Saint classroom
is where I really break this down a
lot. So and you can find, that online
for free. Love it. Alright. Give us your
latest favorite sermon that we all should go
listen to. Oh, man. Other than general conference
from a non Latter day Saint.
I heard one
from Tim Keller this summer
on Matthew seven on judge you know, the
judge not versus,
and it was about integrity and and really
self deception that was fantastic. In fact, it
was so good. I put it immediately
or a short time later into my homiletics
class. I have I have the students, you
know, listen to some sermons from different people,
but that was that was one I heard
a little while ago. That was really good.
Love it. You know? We'll link to it.
People can jump in. A little Tim Keller
in their life. So very good. Last question
I have for you, Stephen, is,
I mean, if you're in a room full
of church leaders and you just want to
encourage them about the doctrine of justification and
sanctification,
what would you say? I would help them
see the difference between being forgiven multiple times
for sin and the new covenant standing we
enter into
when we're baptized and all of the security
and, and grace and goodness, the understanding that
doctrine brings into our lives. And I'd want
to help them to see that difference. Yeah.
Now that we've reached the end of the
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It came as a result of the position
of leadership which was imposed upon us
by the God of heaven who brought
forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus
Christ.
When the declaration
was made concerning the only and only true
and living Church upon the face of the
earth,
we were immediately put in a position
of loneliness,
the loneliness of leadership
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,
and to which we must face up with
boldness and courage
and ability.