1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:04,080 If you wanted further insight into a come 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:06,480 follow me lesson, you'd probably search in YouTube 3 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:08,720 or get the We Believe app. Tough church 4 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:11,039 history questions? You'd reach out to the BH 5 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:13,279 Roberts Foundation. But what if you wanted to 6 00:00:13,279 --> 00:00:15,314 learn to be a better leader? Well, I'm 7 00:00:15,314 --> 00:00:17,894 glad you asked. You'd come to Leading Saints. 8 00:00:18,195 --> 00:00:20,274 That's why we exist, to help Latter day 9 00:00:20,274 --> 00:00:22,515 Saints be better prepared to lead by being 10 00:00:22,515 --> 00:00:24,695 familiar with others' leadership experiences, 11 00:00:25,154 --> 00:00:28,349 understand the latest leadership research, and finding a 12 00:00:28,349 --> 00:00:30,989 community to share ideas. That's why I'm glad 13 00:00:30,989 --> 00:00:33,629 you found the Leading Saints podcast. We hope 14 00:00:33,629 --> 00:00:35,629 you will dive into the archives and visit 15 00:00:35,629 --> 00:00:36,750 leadingsaints.org 16 00:00:36,750 --> 00:00:38,750 to find out what are the top most 17 00:00:38,750 --> 00:00:40,689 listened to episodes on the podcast. 18 00:00:41,070 --> 00:00:42,675 Welcome. You're gonna love 19 00:00:43,815 --> 00:00:44,315 it. 20 00:00:45,454 --> 00:00:47,615 Here we step back into Zion Labs to 21 00:00:47,615 --> 00:00:50,034 do a live stream. This is a recording 22 00:00:50,094 --> 00:00:52,335 of that live stream where we interview Daniel 23 00:00:52,335 --> 00:00:52,835 Johnston 24 00:00:53,295 --> 00:00:55,619 who is a major in the air force 25 00:00:55,700 --> 00:00:58,259 currently stationed at Dover Air Force Base, originally 26 00:00:58,259 --> 00:01:01,539 from Idaho, Meridian, Idaho, went to BYU, was 27 00:01:01,539 --> 00:01:04,819 involved in their ROTC program there. Just I 28 00:01:04,819 --> 00:01:07,859 love interviewing military guys who have been through 29 00:01:07,859 --> 00:01:09,219 the ringer with some of these things. I 30 00:01:09,219 --> 00:01:10,819 mean, this is true leadership when you're in 31 00:01:10,819 --> 00:01:11,295 the military 32 00:01:12,894 --> 00:01:15,534 insight is always beneficial. Daniel recently wrote this 33 00:01:15,534 --> 00:01:19,394 book, Leading with Faith. Subtitle is Timeless Lessons 34 00:01:19,614 --> 00:01:23,555 from Spiritual Giants. He takes six leadership styles 35 00:01:23,854 --> 00:01:25,454 and talks about, in each one of those 36 00:01:25,454 --> 00:01:25,954 six, 37 00:01:26,310 --> 00:01:28,569 specific individuals either in church history, 38 00:01:28,870 --> 00:01:31,430 you know, prophets in the restored church, even, 39 00:01:31,750 --> 00:01:34,709 scripture examples of prophets or individuals in the 40 00:01:34,709 --> 00:01:36,569 scriptures. So just a a fascinating 41 00:01:37,189 --> 00:01:39,564 discussion that we as we talk about different 42 00:01:39,564 --> 00:01:42,305 leadership styles and what we've seen from leaders 43 00:01:42,364 --> 00:01:44,284 in our time, you know, in in in 44 00:01:44,284 --> 00:01:46,704 modern times, but also anciently. And, 45 00:01:47,004 --> 00:01:49,564 you know, how did these leadership styles impact 46 00:01:49,564 --> 00:01:51,484 the way that they led? And we talked 47 00:01:51,484 --> 00:01:52,765 about each one of these six and and 48 00:01:52,765 --> 00:01:54,364 share examples, and this would be a book 49 00:01:54,364 --> 00:01:56,520 to definitely check out to 50 00:01:56,900 --> 00:01:58,820 explore different leadership styles and learn from them 51 00:01:58,820 --> 00:02:00,820 and then ask ourselves, what kind of leader 52 00:02:00,820 --> 00:02:02,180 am I? How do I show up? And 53 00:02:02,180 --> 00:02:04,420 maybe what's another style that maybe I can 54 00:02:04,420 --> 00:02:06,180 try on for size and see if there's 55 00:02:06,180 --> 00:02:08,260 anything beneficial that comes out out of that. 56 00:02:08,260 --> 00:02:10,465 So a great discussion with Daniel. Let's jump 57 00:02:10,465 --> 00:02:13,504 into it. Here's my interview with major Daniel 58 00:02:13,504 --> 00:02:14,004 Johnston. 59 00:02:23,504 --> 00:02:26,479 Alright. Welcome back to another podcast episode, which 60 00:02:26,479 --> 00:02:28,639 we are live streaming at the same time. 61 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:31,039 It's sort of becoming the norm in, the 62 00:02:31,039 --> 00:02:32,799 leading saints world that we're not just a 63 00:02:32,799 --> 00:02:35,459 podcast anymore. We're also a online 64 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,019 community. And so a part of that community 65 00:02:38,239 --> 00:02:40,664 through Zion lab, as we call it, we 66 00:02:40,664 --> 00:02:42,444 are doing more and more live streams 67 00:02:42,905 --> 00:02:44,824 that a lot of those we turn into 68 00:02:44,824 --> 00:02:48,604 podcast episodes like this. And, I always appreciate 69 00:02:49,064 --> 00:02:51,305 bringing in a good author here, especially somebody 70 00:02:51,305 --> 00:02:54,599 who's taken some time to, think about leadership 71 00:02:54,659 --> 00:02:56,419 in the context of of being a Latter 72 00:02:56,419 --> 00:02:59,139 day Saint. And, that is, Daniel Johnston. How 73 00:02:59,139 --> 00:03:01,060 are you? I'm doing great, Kurt. How how 74 00:03:01,060 --> 00:03:01,959 are you doing today? 75 00:03:02,259 --> 00:03:03,860 Very good. And I just love you I 76 00:03:03,860 --> 00:03:05,655 mean, you you are dialed in when it 77 00:03:05,655 --> 00:03:07,735 comes to, you know, doing the the book 78 00:03:07,735 --> 00:03:09,335 promotion. You got the book behind you here. 79 00:03:09,335 --> 00:03:11,014 I got a copy here. Maybe I should 80 00:03:11,014 --> 00:03:12,935 put it on my shelf. But, yeah, it's 81 00:03:12,935 --> 00:03:15,995 called Leading with Faith, Timeless Lessons from Spiritual 82 00:03:16,469 --> 00:03:16,969 Giants. 83 00:03:17,430 --> 00:03:20,069 So, Daniel, tell me what, where did the 84 00:03:20,069 --> 00:03:23,270 idea come for actually putting this, manuscript and 85 00:03:23,270 --> 00:03:25,990 book together? So very simply, I'm a officer 86 00:03:25,990 --> 00:03:28,009 in the United States Air Force. And 87 00:03:28,389 --> 00:03:29,610 when you are an officer, 88 00:03:30,395 --> 00:03:31,594 the first thing you're taught is you are 89 00:03:31,594 --> 00:03:33,354 a leader first, then you're your job second. 90 00:03:33,354 --> 00:03:35,115 So I came in and as a brand 91 00:03:35,115 --> 00:03:35,854 new lieutenant, 92 00:03:36,235 --> 00:03:38,555 24 years old, graduated, I was in charge 93 00:03:38,555 --> 00:03:40,395 of over a 100 guys who all knew 94 00:03:40,395 --> 00:03:41,594 my job better than me. I'm I'm a 95 00:03:41,594 --> 00:03:44,014 maintenance officer, so responsible for fixing the aircraft. 96 00:03:44,689 --> 00:03:46,210 All of them knew that the job of 97 00:03:46,210 --> 00:03:48,930 fixing the aircraft better than me. My primary 98 00:03:48,930 --> 00:03:51,110 skill set was supposed to be leadership. So 99 00:03:51,169 --> 00:03:52,230 I would look to 100 00:03:52,930 --> 00:03:55,409 other officers. I looked to enlisted leadership. I 101 00:03:55,409 --> 00:03:57,250 would look everywhere. It it got to the 102 00:03:57,250 --> 00:03:59,010 point where I couldn't watch an MCU movie, 103 00:03:59,010 --> 00:04:00,985 a Marvel movie, without trying to be like, 104 00:04:00,985 --> 00:04:02,664 what can I draw from, you know, Iron 105 00:04:02,664 --> 00:04:05,324 Man here or whatever? So I was just 106 00:04:05,784 --> 00:04:07,564 really looking out for every 107 00:04:07,944 --> 00:04:09,544 every avenue I could to see how I 108 00:04:09,544 --> 00:04:11,305 could do better at my job. And then 109 00:04:11,305 --> 00:04:12,284 one day, I realized 110 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:14,680 the Lord has provided some of the greatest 111 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:15,659 examples of leadership 112 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:17,720 in scriptures that I read every day. And 113 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:19,740 the only thing I'm taking from them is 114 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,520 spiritual guidance, which is great. We should take 115 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:24,759 spiritual guidance from our scriptures, but there are 116 00:04:24,759 --> 00:04:27,115 real life leadership lessons. These are amazing men 117 00:04:27,115 --> 00:04:29,514 and women that led with faith, and we 118 00:04:29,514 --> 00:04:30,794 shouldn't put them in a box so that 119 00:04:30,794 --> 00:04:32,574 we they can only help us on Sundays. 120 00:04:32,875 --> 00:04:35,834 So I had some time over, my last 121 00:04:35,834 --> 00:04:38,649 deployment to Saudi Arabia, and I started putting 122 00:04:38,649 --> 00:04:40,490 together some notes. And they came together much 123 00:04:40,490 --> 00:04:42,990 quicker than I thought. So there's the book. 124 00:04:43,050 --> 00:04:45,290 That's cool. I love that. And, you know, 125 00:04:45,290 --> 00:04:47,210 I think, naturally, we think if I wanna 126 00:04:47,210 --> 00:04:50,110 write a church leadership book about, 127 00:04:50,555 --> 00:04:52,875 you know, some figures in church history or 128 00:04:52,875 --> 00:04:54,555 in the scriptures, we we start with the 129 00:04:54,555 --> 00:04:56,475 person and then kinda fill in the principles. 130 00:04:56,475 --> 00:04:57,675 But you kinda did it the other way 131 00:04:57,675 --> 00:04:59,675 where you started with the principle, like the 132 00:04:59,675 --> 00:05:01,455 builders, the peacemakers, the exemplars, 133 00:05:01,995 --> 00:05:04,709 and then you, you know, attach to certain 134 00:05:05,170 --> 00:05:07,569 individuals to that. Is that a fair way 135 00:05:07,569 --> 00:05:09,889 to frame that? No. Absolutely. I I feel 136 00:05:09,889 --> 00:05:11,970 like a lot of people who are either 137 00:05:11,970 --> 00:05:14,370 beginning to get into leadership or aren't in 138 00:05:14,370 --> 00:05:16,129 leadership yet but are looking to, they think 139 00:05:16,129 --> 00:05:17,665 of there's such thing as in their mind 140 00:05:17,665 --> 00:05:19,904 as an ideal leader. It's probably a leader 141 00:05:19,904 --> 00:05:21,745 that they had growing up, like a church 142 00:05:21,745 --> 00:05:24,084 leader, a parent, a teacher who 143 00:05:24,464 --> 00:05:25,904 that really was impactful to them, so they 144 00:05:25,904 --> 00:05:27,665 think there's this one way to lead. And 145 00:05:27,665 --> 00:05:29,425 I've seen through my career lots of different 146 00:05:29,425 --> 00:05:31,139 kinds of leaders. And so as I was 147 00:05:31,139 --> 00:05:32,740 going through and I was reading the scriptures 148 00:05:32,740 --> 00:05:34,819 and kinda thinking about this, I thought, let 149 00:05:34,819 --> 00:05:38,339 me show specifically different styles of leadership that 150 00:05:38,339 --> 00:05:40,339 can be found in the world around us, 151 00:05:40,339 --> 00:05:42,519 but also in the scriptures. We can see, 152 00:05:42,834 --> 00:05:45,495 you know, two leaders. You know, there's captain 153 00:05:45,555 --> 00:05:47,014 Moroni, and there's 154 00:05:47,714 --> 00:05:50,514 Esther. Two incredibly different leaders, and they're both 155 00:05:50,514 --> 00:05:53,314 in the book, who accomplished great things, you 156 00:05:53,314 --> 00:05:55,170 would say are great leaders, but did it 157 00:05:55,170 --> 00:05:58,050 in a entirely different way. Yeah. And was 158 00:05:58,050 --> 00:05:59,029 there a certain 159 00:05:59,490 --> 00:06:01,089 like, how did you come how did you 160 00:06:01,089 --> 00:06:03,490 settle on the certain principles or the the 161 00:06:03,490 --> 00:06:05,910 titles that you, use in each section? 162 00:06:06,290 --> 00:06:08,264 I kinda see them throughout my career. So 163 00:06:08,345 --> 00:06:10,185 I didn't have hard names to them, but 164 00:06:10,185 --> 00:06:11,705 I knew there was different kinds of leaders 165 00:06:11,705 --> 00:06:13,545 throughout my career because, like I said, right 166 00:06:13,545 --> 00:06:15,305 from when you're a lieutenant, you're expected to 167 00:06:15,305 --> 00:06:17,625 lead. So you're defining your own leadership style, 168 00:06:17,625 --> 00:06:19,225 and you're looking at officers around you and 169 00:06:19,225 --> 00:06:21,225 stuff, and you very notice very quickly there's 170 00:06:21,225 --> 00:06:23,529 there's different styles. So they were I didn't 171 00:06:23,529 --> 00:06:24,569 have names for all of them, but they 172 00:06:24,569 --> 00:06:26,730 were amorphous ideas I already had of, like, 173 00:06:26,730 --> 00:06:27,930 when I meet a new squad or come 174 00:06:27,930 --> 00:06:30,089 in, like, okay. This guy's a builder. Oh, 175 00:06:30,089 --> 00:06:32,009 this leader's more of a servant leader. So 176 00:06:32,250 --> 00:06:34,569 Mhmm. To kind of get what you're you're 177 00:06:34,569 --> 00:06:36,334 saying, I have six kinds of leaders in 178 00:06:36,334 --> 00:06:38,834 there. There's the communicators, the builders, peacemakers, 179 00:06:39,295 --> 00:06:39,795 exemplars, 180 00:06:40,415 --> 00:06:41,714 servant leaders, and disruptors. 181 00:06:42,254 --> 00:06:44,814 And it just when I actually sat down 182 00:06:44,814 --> 00:06:46,254 and started putting down, like, I know there's 183 00:06:46,254 --> 00:06:47,960 different kind of leaders. Let me try to 184 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:49,160 see if I can put this down on 185 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:51,800 paper. Examples came to my mind from my 186 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:53,660 own career of, like, oh, okay. 187 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:55,960 That's the definition of this kind of leader. 188 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:57,720 Can I find those examples in the scriptures? 189 00:06:57,720 --> 00:06:59,240 And as soon as I had the the 190 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,879 category defined, the examples as I was reading 191 00:07:01,879 --> 00:07:04,395 just jumped off the page. Yeah. That was 192 00:07:04,395 --> 00:07:07,355 fascinating. And I appreciate you breaking up that 193 00:07:07,355 --> 00:07:08,654 way because, obviously, 194 00:07:09,035 --> 00:07:12,395 every leader individual will naturally have their own 195 00:07:12,395 --> 00:07:14,095 style of leading, and sometimes 196 00:07:14,475 --> 00:07:17,214 we see may maybe more dynamic leader who's 197 00:07:17,490 --> 00:07:19,250 really strong in front of a group of 198 00:07:19,250 --> 00:07:21,889 people or good presenter or very charismatic, and 199 00:07:21,889 --> 00:07:23,649 we think, you know, that's a leader. Right? 200 00:07:23,649 --> 00:07:25,170 And you see we kind of try and 201 00:07:25,170 --> 00:07:27,329 be that person when maybe we're not. And 202 00:07:27,329 --> 00:07:30,209 so do you feel like you've identified maybe 203 00:07:30,209 --> 00:07:32,610 six different types of of leaders? And, obviously, 204 00:07:32,610 --> 00:07:35,064 they may overlap in some areas. But it's 205 00:07:35,145 --> 00:07:37,464 that there's a certain leader for and a 206 00:07:37,464 --> 00:07:39,305 different approach, not because they're the only ones 207 00:07:39,305 --> 00:07:40,045 that can do 208 00:07:40,425 --> 00:07:42,105 that the task at hand, but that there's 209 00:07:42,105 --> 00:07:43,805 just different ways to approach leadership. 210 00:07:44,185 --> 00:07:45,705 Absolutely. And once again, I would just want 211 00:07:45,705 --> 00:07:47,384 to get away from the ideal leader myth 212 00:07:47,384 --> 00:07:49,000 that there's not just one way to be 213 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:50,699 a leader for two reasons. One, 214 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,639 to, you know, so you can identify in 215 00:07:53,639 --> 00:07:56,839 yourself what is, like, maybe everybody has different 216 00:07:56,839 --> 00:07:59,020 skill sets. God's given us all different gifts. 217 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:01,314 And if you have a strength, but it's 218 00:08:01,314 --> 00:08:02,995 not what you've seen in or in your 219 00:08:02,995 --> 00:08:04,995 organizations, maybe you have an organization that's full 220 00:08:04,995 --> 00:08:06,834 of builders. And you're like, oh, I'm not 221 00:08:06,834 --> 00:08:08,435 a great builder. That means I can't be 222 00:08:08,435 --> 00:08:10,435 a leader. That's not the case. You have 223 00:08:10,435 --> 00:08:13,150 strengths, and that strength can be nurtured and 224 00:08:13,150 --> 00:08:15,470 developed to where you can lead. And the 225 00:08:15,470 --> 00:08:17,310 big thing I wanna say is if I 226 00:08:17,310 --> 00:08:19,310 go through these six types of leaders and 227 00:08:19,310 --> 00:08:21,410 you don't see anything that speaks to you, 228 00:08:21,550 --> 00:08:23,949 okay, there's this is not the complete exhaustive 229 00:08:23,949 --> 00:08:25,389 list of types of leaders there are. These 230 00:08:25,389 --> 00:08:27,089 are just six that I identified. 231 00:08:27,714 --> 00:08:29,555 Every god has given us all gifts, and 232 00:08:29,555 --> 00:08:30,834 every single one of us can be a 233 00:08:30,834 --> 00:08:33,955 leader by developing those special gifts. Very good. 234 00:08:33,955 --> 00:08:35,475 Well, let's go through each one, and you've 235 00:08:35,634 --> 00:08:37,714 you know, maybe we'll dive into some, some 236 00:08:37,714 --> 00:08:39,634 of the examples you talk about. But the 237 00:08:39,634 --> 00:08:42,509 first one being communicator, and you specifically high 238 00:08:42,590 --> 00:08:45,070 highlight, Gordon b Hinckley in this. Maybe give 239 00:08:45,070 --> 00:08:47,809 us some background there. Yeah. No. Absolutely. So 240 00:08:47,950 --> 00:08:49,790 the funny thing with communicator, this is probably 241 00:08:49,790 --> 00:08:51,629 the one that's the most broad. I chose 242 00:08:51,629 --> 00:08:53,629 Gordon b Hinckley, but in this one I 243 00:08:53,629 --> 00:08:56,429 have, Captain Moroni, I have Alma the Younger, 244 00:08:56,429 --> 00:08:58,684 I have King Benjamin because, you know, as 245 00:08:58,684 --> 00:09:01,404 a communicator, even within that, there's, you know, 246 00:09:01,404 --> 00:09:03,565 those leaders that speak with power. There's those 247 00:09:03,565 --> 00:09:06,205 leaders that can break down complex thoughts and 248 00:09:06,205 --> 00:09:08,205 simplify them so they can be understood, and 249 00:09:08,205 --> 00:09:10,365 then those leaders who can can, like, communicate 250 00:09:10,365 --> 00:09:13,000 logistically well and get their message spread. Gordon 251 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,019 B. Hinckley, I I picked him out specifically 252 00:09:15,319 --> 00:09:17,639 because he's a leader who understood that it's 253 00:09:17,639 --> 00:09:18,919 not just important for a leader to be 254 00:09:18,919 --> 00:09:20,139 able to communicate internally 255 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:22,600 and so that their people understand them, but 256 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:23,659 the leader is also 257 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,039 the voice of the organization and shapes the 258 00:09:26,039 --> 00:09:27,179 perception of the organization, 259 00:09:27,485 --> 00:09:28,625 which Gordon b Hinckley 260 00:09:29,245 --> 00:09:31,565 excelled at. Like, I love Gordon b Hinckley. 261 00:09:31,565 --> 00:09:33,404 He was the prophet of my youth. I 262 00:09:33,404 --> 00:09:35,004 always thought he was really funny and, you 263 00:09:35,004 --> 00:09:36,845 know, he he had that smile, but as 264 00:09:36,845 --> 00:09:38,625 I studied his life a little bit more, 265 00:09:38,685 --> 00:09:41,245 it's amazing how masterful a communicator he was. 266 00:09:41,245 --> 00:09:43,049 Even at a young age, I something I 267 00:09:43,049 --> 00:09:44,490 didn't realize, you know, you hear about Gordon 268 00:09:44,490 --> 00:09:46,889 B. Hinckley's mission and there's that quote where 269 00:09:46,889 --> 00:09:48,570 he just goes to work where thou art 270 00:09:48,570 --> 00:09:50,410 do thou part and, you know, forget yourself 271 00:09:50,410 --> 00:09:52,009 and go to work, that was it. But 272 00:09:52,009 --> 00:09:55,129 also, he worked with journalists in The UK 273 00:09:55,129 --> 00:09:57,835 during his mission because the church wasn't perceived 274 00:09:57,835 --> 00:09:59,355 well there, and I know this firsthand having 275 00:09:59,355 --> 00:10:01,195 served my mission in England, and he worked 276 00:10:01,195 --> 00:10:02,875 with journalists in the local area to try 277 00:10:02,875 --> 00:10:04,894 to get some good publicity for the church. 278 00:10:05,115 --> 00:10:07,355 And to have that kind of foresight, that 279 00:10:07,355 --> 00:10:10,415 innate leadership ability, that understanding as a communicator 280 00:10:10,475 --> 00:10:12,175 at that age to me is is incredible. 281 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:14,279 And that's why when he came back at 282 00:10:14,279 --> 00:10:16,839 age 25, he was put over the media 283 00:10:16,839 --> 00:10:18,940 and public relations for the entire church. 284 00:10:19,399 --> 00:10:20,919 So just And that put him on a 285 00:10:20,919 --> 00:10:22,759 a path where we all know ended up, 286 00:10:22,759 --> 00:10:25,240 you know? So really cool. I'm curious. I 287 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:27,579 have a a follow-up question around the communicator, 288 00:10:28,245 --> 00:10:29,865 but we're recording this 289 00:10:30,245 --> 00:10:32,164 a handful days after the passing of president 290 00:10:32,164 --> 00:10:35,125 Nelson before general conference. And, obviously, there's a 291 00:10:35,125 --> 00:10:36,884 lot of talk about president Nelson right now. 292 00:10:36,884 --> 00:10:38,164 Just like not to put you on the 293 00:10:38,164 --> 00:10:39,445 spot, but off the top of your head, 294 00:10:39,445 --> 00:10:42,245 like, what type of leader was president Nelson 295 00:10:42,245 --> 00:10:44,009 in in these six categories? Where would you 296 00:10:44,009 --> 00:10:45,490 put him? I have thought about him because 297 00:10:45,490 --> 00:10:47,450 I was actually thinking about putting president president 298 00:10:47,450 --> 00:10:49,850 Nelson in the book. Once again, any one 299 00:10:49,850 --> 00:10:51,049 of these leaders, you could put them in 300 00:10:51,049 --> 00:10:52,889 a couple of categories. There's but for me, 301 00:10:52,889 --> 00:10:55,289 there's defining attributes, and I'd put president Nelson 302 00:10:55,289 --> 00:10:56,110 as a disruptor, 303 00:10:57,095 --> 00:10:58,774 which is funny because you think disruptor, you 304 00:10:58,774 --> 00:11:00,054 think it has to be Steve Jobs, has 305 00:11:00,054 --> 00:11:01,274 to be somebody confrontational. 306 00:11:02,455 --> 00:11:03,815 Disruptor, and we'll we'll get into it in 307 00:11:03,815 --> 00:11:05,335 a little bit, but disruptor is just somebody 308 00:11:05,335 --> 00:11:07,174 who sees the paradigm. Because a lot of 309 00:11:07,174 --> 00:11:08,535 leaders, they come in and they wanna, like, 310 00:11:08,535 --> 00:11:10,455 make alterations, make things a little bit their 311 00:11:10,455 --> 00:11:12,590 own. Disrupters are people who have a clear 312 00:11:12,590 --> 00:11:14,670 vision, and it has if it's different than 313 00:11:14,670 --> 00:11:15,870 the paradigm in front of them, it doesn't 314 00:11:15,870 --> 00:11:17,790 matter. They just are committed to their vision 315 00:11:17,790 --> 00:11:19,550 into a total change. And I think Yeah. 316 00:11:19,710 --> 00:11:21,470 President Nelson, I mean, we were all sitting 317 00:11:21,470 --> 00:11:23,230 in our seats at every conference to see 318 00:11:23,230 --> 00:11:25,065 what the big changes would be next. Right? 319 00:11:25,225 --> 00:11:26,345 I feel like that's the kind of the 320 00:11:26,345 --> 00:11:28,745 legacy he left behind during his during his 321 00:11:28,745 --> 00:11:31,144 tenure. Yeah. The reason I asked that at 322 00:11:31,144 --> 00:11:32,745 this point in the interview is that going 323 00:11:32,745 --> 00:11:35,144 back to communicator and, obviously, president Hinckley was 324 00:11:35,144 --> 00:11:37,705 was masterful at that. You know, there's so 325 00:11:37,705 --> 00:11:39,865 much comments right now online about president Nelson, 326 00:11:39,865 --> 00:11:41,700 and I think there's one that was a 327 00:11:41,700 --> 00:11:44,660 little bit, you know, a cynical commenter that 328 00:11:44,660 --> 00:11:46,660 does happen on online, believe it or not. 329 00:11:46,660 --> 00:11:48,660 But they said something like, why didn't president 330 00:11:48,660 --> 00:11:51,460 Nelson ever do an interview with the media? 331 00:11:51,460 --> 00:11:53,220 Right? And I'm thinking, you know, you think 332 00:11:53,220 --> 00:11:55,184 back to president Hinckley. You know, he was 333 00:11:55,184 --> 00:11:57,264 with Larry King a few times. It's like, 334 00:11:57,264 --> 00:11:59,184 I don't know if I want president Nelson 335 00:11:59,184 --> 00:12:01,445 on Larry King or a similar type of 336 00:12:01,504 --> 00:12:03,345 interview because I don't know how he would 337 00:12:03,345 --> 00:12:04,465 fare that. I don't know if that was 338 00:12:04,465 --> 00:12:06,225 necessarily his forte, and I don't think you 339 00:12:06,225 --> 00:12:08,049 know, just as you know and I don't 340 00:12:08,049 --> 00:12:10,370 want president Hinckley doing my heart surgery either. 341 00:12:10,370 --> 00:12:11,570 You know? So it's like one of those 342 00:12:11,570 --> 00:12:13,169 things. Like, it's not like president Hinckley was 343 00:12:13,169 --> 00:12:15,329 better than president Nelson or they just were 344 00:12:15,329 --> 00:12:16,309 a different leader, 345 00:12:16,690 --> 00:12:19,750 and, they definitely shined in those areas. However, 346 00:12:20,014 --> 00:12:22,975 I'd also say that in other areas, president 347 00:12:22,975 --> 00:12:25,534 Nelson was extremely effective communicator where I just 348 00:12:25,534 --> 00:12:27,715 think about how effective he was with these 349 00:12:27,855 --> 00:12:30,575 taglines and phrases where he could take a 350 00:12:30,575 --> 00:12:33,149 a huge message and compress it into a 351 00:12:33,230 --> 00:12:35,809 think, celestial spiritual momentum, covenant 352 00:12:36,430 --> 00:12:39,170 path, you know, type of type of, phrase 353 00:12:39,389 --> 00:12:40,830 and, you know, the his, 354 00:12:41,309 --> 00:12:43,710 three principle identities types of things. Like, he 355 00:12:43,710 --> 00:12:45,730 was masterful at that as far as communicating 356 00:12:45,870 --> 00:12:48,524 a spiritual message in the right context, but 357 00:12:48,524 --> 00:12:50,285 I didn't necessarily wanna, you know, put him 358 00:12:50,285 --> 00:12:51,665 on a national media 359 00:12:52,125 --> 00:12:53,745 interview where he's answering questions. 360 00:12:54,125 --> 00:12:56,045 It really is amazing how when we see 361 00:12:56,045 --> 00:12:56,865 how the prophets 362 00:12:57,325 --> 00:12:58,925 you know, when their strengths come out, like, 363 00:12:58,925 --> 00:13:00,524 maybe we kind of had an idea when 364 00:13:00,524 --> 00:13:02,205 they're apostles, but as they become a prophet 365 00:13:02,205 --> 00:13:04,080 and they we see their strengths as a 366 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:06,120 leader to see why God has put them 367 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,159 in that position at the time. Like you 368 00:13:08,159 --> 00:13:10,200 said, Gordon b Hinckley held press conferences. He 369 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:12,495 went on talk shows. He was he really 370 00:13:12,495 --> 00:13:14,534 was a master communicator, but not all leaders 371 00:13:14,534 --> 00:13:16,574 have to be great at all things. I 372 00:13:16,574 --> 00:13:18,424 think that's a common misconception. Like like, so 373 00:13:18,424 --> 00:13:20,264 why didn't president Nelson go on the talks? 374 00:13:20,264 --> 00:13:22,105 Okay. You know? That might not have been 375 00:13:22,105 --> 00:13:23,884 his strength. And it's important great leaders 376 00:13:24,345 --> 00:13:26,204 know their strengths, and they also know 377 00:13:26,504 --> 00:13:29,225 what their strengths aren't, and that's okay. Yeah. 378 00:13:29,225 --> 00:13:30,904 I think for somebody to reach a certain 379 00:13:30,904 --> 00:13:32,504 level, they have to know what got them 380 00:13:32,504 --> 00:13:35,360 there. Yep. Very good. K. So, I mean, 381 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:37,120 this isn't if if people aren't thinking of 382 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,200 it, they'll slap their forehead when they think 383 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,600 of the who's the church leader? Who's the 384 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:43,600 builder? Yeah. No. I feel like this one 385 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:44,960 was the easiest one. This is the one 386 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:46,480 as soon as I, as soon as I 387 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:48,639 came up with the categories builder, I put 388 00:13:48,639 --> 00:13:51,985 Brigham Young. There's other ones. There's Joseph of 389 00:13:51,985 --> 00:13:54,084 of Egypt is a is another big one. 390 00:13:54,384 --> 00:13:56,625 And there's we see throughout history and and 391 00:13:56,625 --> 00:13:58,225 church history a a lot of builders. But 392 00:13:58,225 --> 00:14:00,584 Brigham Young, I mean, a builder to me, 393 00:14:00,584 --> 00:14:02,384 I mean, it's a easily definable one, but 394 00:14:02,384 --> 00:14:04,419 it's a problem solver. It's it's a I 395 00:14:04,419 --> 00:14:06,360 like to think of them as progress drivers. 396 00:14:06,740 --> 00:14:09,059 Mhmm. Progress just doesn't happen on there, the 397 00:14:09,059 --> 00:14:11,940 key driving factor for it. And they established 398 00:14:11,940 --> 00:14:14,500 something that that last. And Brigham Young took 399 00:14:14,500 --> 00:14:17,075 on his shoulders what, at the time, I 400 00:14:17,075 --> 00:14:19,315 would consider the greatest logistical feat in the 401 00:14:19,315 --> 00:14:21,875 history of The United States and still maybe 402 00:14:21,875 --> 00:14:23,634 today is the greatest logistical feat in the 403 00:14:23,634 --> 00:14:25,955 history of The United States of migrating an 404 00:14:25,955 --> 00:14:26,455 entire 405 00:14:26,915 --> 00:14:29,654 almost nation of people, not just from Illinois 406 00:14:30,139 --> 00:14:32,240 to Utah, but also overseeing 407 00:14:32,700 --> 00:14:34,879 the migration of the European saints 408 00:14:35,340 --> 00:14:37,259 over being in charge of all that while 409 00:14:37,259 --> 00:14:39,519 also standing up the Utah territory, 410 00:14:40,139 --> 00:14:42,480 which was not a hospitable environment. 411 00:14:43,019 --> 00:14:45,235 And it would have been completely understandable 412 00:14:45,535 --> 00:14:47,715 if the Saints had been in little rundown 413 00:14:48,495 --> 00:14:48,995 outpost 414 00:14:49,615 --> 00:14:51,394 like what the rest of the West was, 415 00:14:51,615 --> 00:14:53,634 but he built cities that just 416 00:14:54,014 --> 00:14:56,894 were perfectly built to expand and not just 417 00:14:56,894 --> 00:14:57,554 the infrastructure, 418 00:14:58,279 --> 00:15:00,540 even to the infrastructure. I I know coming 419 00:15:00,679 --> 00:15:01,080 from, 420 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:03,120 all the places I've lived, I don't have 421 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,000 a great sense of direction. When I moved 422 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:06,440 to Provo, it was my first time living 423 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:08,200 in Utah. I'm like, oh my gosh. I 424 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:10,360 can find my way around here without without 425 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:12,585 a GPS. The grid system was just like, 426 00:15:12,665 --> 00:15:15,245 it was so perfectly constructed just the way 427 00:15:15,304 --> 00:15:17,585 Utah cities are is incredible. Just kind of 428 00:15:17,585 --> 00:15:19,945 a testament to his building expertise. But getting 429 00:15:19,945 --> 00:15:21,384 back to him, he he didn't just build 430 00:15:21,384 --> 00:15:23,625 to survive, he built to thrive. Like, you 431 00:15:23,625 --> 00:15:26,445 know, there's the physical components. There's the components 432 00:15:26,665 --> 00:15:29,080 of culture. Like, he established playhouses, 433 00:15:29,860 --> 00:15:30,519 the choirs, 434 00:15:31,220 --> 00:15:31,720 universities. 435 00:15:32,180 --> 00:15:34,180 And then from the church component, obviously he 436 00:15:34,180 --> 00:15:36,740 was the prophet, but I love the foresight 437 00:15:36,740 --> 00:15:38,740 and the kind of commitment, and I think 438 00:15:38,740 --> 00:15:40,455 it's a story that people know, but that 439 00:15:40,535 --> 00:15:42,774 he called elders and sent them across to 440 00:15:42,774 --> 00:15:44,634 Europe to study cathedrals 441 00:15:45,335 --> 00:15:47,575 for the blueprints of how to build temples 442 00:15:47,575 --> 00:15:49,975 here. Just it wasn't enough for him to 443 00:15:49,975 --> 00:15:51,495 just be like, okay, let's get here, let's 444 00:15:51,495 --> 00:15:53,415 get set up. It was, I'm gonna build 445 00:15:53,415 --> 00:15:53,915 something. 446 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:56,559 I'm responsible for building Zion. He knew that, 447 00:15:56,559 --> 00:15:59,360 and he treated that responsibility with care. So 448 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:01,940 I don't know if the church, through scripture 449 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:03,839 or church history, has had a better builder 450 00:16:03,839 --> 00:16:06,100 than Brigham Young. That was true. They literally 451 00:16:06,414 --> 00:16:08,674 have a statue in The US Capitol because 452 00:16:08,815 --> 00:16:10,975 he was such a dynamic builder and settler. 453 00:16:10,975 --> 00:16:12,654 Right? He was a force to be reckoned 454 00:16:12,654 --> 00:16:14,414 with. Right? And I'm curious. Obviously, you know, 455 00:16:14,414 --> 00:16:16,894 Brigham Young can be a controversial figure, especially 456 00:16:16,894 --> 00:16:18,654 in the social media world. A lot of 457 00:16:18,654 --> 00:16:19,934 people love to just throw him under the 458 00:16:19,934 --> 00:16:22,340 bus, which is usually unmerited. But I wonder 459 00:16:22,340 --> 00:16:24,419 if there's almost like an antithesis to each 460 00:16:24,419 --> 00:16:25,059 one of these 461 00:16:25,620 --> 00:16:27,299 the one of these, right, where it's like, 462 00:16:27,299 --> 00:16:29,399 I don't maybe I didn't I don't expect 463 00:16:29,860 --> 00:16:32,019 Brigham Young. I'm sure there's stories of him 464 00:16:32,019 --> 00:16:33,745 being a servant leader, but, you know, he 465 00:16:33,745 --> 00:16:35,824 doesn't jump to mind. That's sort of a 466 00:16:35,824 --> 00:16:37,664 thing. Right? And and that's sort of just 467 00:16:37,664 --> 00:16:40,225 the nature of these leadership, different types of 468 00:16:40,225 --> 00:16:42,884 leaders is that you're gonna get different styles 469 00:16:43,105 --> 00:16:45,264 at different times, and sometimes there's a lot 470 00:16:45,264 --> 00:16:47,220 of purpose that God is putting up leader 471 00:16:47,220 --> 00:16:48,660 there at the at the right time. But, 472 00:16:49,059 --> 00:16:51,379 it's interesting to think about that. Sometimes their 473 00:16:51,379 --> 00:16:54,500 strength can also reveal a weakness. You're absolutely 474 00:16:54,500 --> 00:16:56,340 right. And there are I heard stories. I've 475 00:16:56,340 --> 00:16:58,100 read them of Brigham Young's softer side and 476 00:16:58,100 --> 00:17:00,419 servant leadership take taking kids into his home 477 00:17:00,419 --> 00:17:02,774 and stuff like that. But once again, I 478 00:17:02,774 --> 00:17:04,134 don't think that's why god had him in 479 00:17:04,134 --> 00:17:05,894 that position at that time for his servant 480 00:17:05,894 --> 00:17:08,295 leadership skills. It was Brigham was the man 481 00:17:08,295 --> 00:17:09,815 who could get the job done. And it 482 00:17:09,815 --> 00:17:11,335 is funny. I think I don't know if 483 00:17:11,335 --> 00:17:13,515 there's as much of a contrast in leadership 484 00:17:13,575 --> 00:17:14,075 styles 485 00:17:14,500 --> 00:17:15,240 we have 486 00:17:15,700 --> 00:17:18,679 from Joseph Smith to Brigham Young. Mhmm. Like, 487 00:17:18,819 --> 00:17:20,819 I was in one of my, leadership classes 488 00:17:20,819 --> 00:17:22,339 at when I had got my MBA at 489 00:17:22,339 --> 00:17:22,839 BYU, 490 00:17:23,140 --> 00:17:25,059 and the comparison was made. Joseph Smith to 491 00:17:25,059 --> 00:17:27,255 Brigham Young is Steve Jobs to Tim Cook. 492 00:17:27,974 --> 00:17:28,714 You have 493 00:17:29,015 --> 00:17:29,994 the more visionary 494 00:17:30,535 --> 00:17:32,295 leader. And Joseph Smith was a builder. He 495 00:17:32,295 --> 00:17:34,615 had his building tendencies, but, you know, built 496 00:17:34,615 --> 00:17:37,095 up Nabu, but not on the same scale 497 00:17:37,095 --> 00:17:38,454 as Brigham. But he was more of a 498 00:17:38,454 --> 00:17:41,015 disruptor, you know, just taking the status quo 499 00:17:41,015 --> 00:17:43,559 and and smashing it where Brigham was, okay. 500 00:17:43,559 --> 00:17:45,160 I'm gonna take Joseph's vision, and I am 501 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:46,759 going to make Zion here on Earth, and 502 00:17:46,759 --> 00:17:48,380 I am going to will it to happen. 503 00:17:48,599 --> 00:17:51,240 Yeah. Yeah. It would be interesting. Maybe in 504 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:52,919 sometime in eternity, you will be able to 505 00:17:52,919 --> 00:17:55,319 play with parallel universes, but it'd be interesting 506 00:17:55,319 --> 00:17:58,044 to see how Joseph Smith would have handled, 507 00:17:58,044 --> 00:17:59,724 you know, if he wasn't martyred and he 508 00:17:59,724 --> 00:18:01,964 carried on, you know, the the leadership with 509 00:18:01,964 --> 00:18:04,444 the saints. You know, what would that expansion 510 00:18:04,444 --> 00:18:06,125 look like? How soon would they have left 511 00:18:06,125 --> 00:18:08,549 Nauvoo? You know, what would the Western settlement? 512 00:18:08,849 --> 00:18:10,369 And I'm sure there's a lot of things 513 00:18:10,369 --> 00:18:12,210 that look the same, but they've been done 514 00:18:12,210 --> 00:18:13,970 differently. That's, you know, that's the way it 515 00:18:13,970 --> 00:18:15,329 is. I I love that. I'm looking forward 516 00:18:15,329 --> 00:18:17,250 to the LDS fan fiction right there. That's 517 00:18:17,250 --> 00:18:20,130 right. Coming out soon. That's right. Alright. Let's 518 00:18:20,130 --> 00:18:21,970 jump to the the peacemaker, and this takes 519 00:18:21,970 --> 00:18:24,275 us to a scriptural figure. Yeah. 520 00:18:24,815 --> 00:18:26,974 So peacemaker, I I spent a long time 521 00:18:26,974 --> 00:18:28,894 thinking about this one of what to call 522 00:18:28,894 --> 00:18:29,634 it because 523 00:18:30,255 --> 00:18:32,035 I feel like the term peacemaker 524 00:18:32,654 --> 00:18:33,855 I'm not gonna use it maybe the way 525 00:18:33,855 --> 00:18:35,970 it's classically thought because the peacemaker I feel 526 00:18:35,970 --> 00:18:37,009 like a lot of times peep what comes 527 00:18:37,009 --> 00:18:38,690 to people's mind is somebody who is passive, 528 00:18:38,690 --> 00:18:41,349 somebody who avoids conflict, somebody who 529 00:18:41,809 --> 00:18:42,789 does not want 530 00:18:43,250 --> 00:18:44,950 to will do what it takes to settle, 531 00:18:45,169 --> 00:18:47,190 which can be the case in some situations. 532 00:18:47,250 --> 00:18:49,984 But a peacemaker, I'm defining it literally as 533 00:18:49,984 --> 00:18:52,005 a leader who makes peace for their people, 534 00:18:52,224 --> 00:18:54,244 who does what is necessary to preserve 535 00:18:54,545 --> 00:18:57,025 the peace and prosperity of their people. And 536 00:18:57,025 --> 00:19:00,144 this sometimes can, you know, have them make 537 00:19:00,144 --> 00:19:02,224 hard decisions. So what I have for here 538 00:19:02,224 --> 00:19:02,884 is Nephi. 539 00:19:03,349 --> 00:19:04,809 Nephi is somebody who 540 00:19:05,269 --> 00:19:08,090 was not afraid to stand up to contention, 541 00:19:08,150 --> 00:19:10,470 not afraid to do what it took, but 542 00:19:10,470 --> 00:19:13,049 his first his first instinct was always 543 00:19:13,509 --> 00:19:15,670 peace. And I think we see examples of 544 00:19:15,670 --> 00:19:17,609 this within his family and then 545 00:19:18,015 --> 00:19:20,414 as the Nephi people grow larger. I mean, 546 00:19:20,414 --> 00:19:21,555 the classic example 547 00:19:22,095 --> 00:19:22,755 is Laban. 548 00:19:23,295 --> 00:19:26,015 Nephi is, a man who wants peace, but 549 00:19:26,015 --> 00:19:27,214 he is sent there on a mission and 550 00:19:27,214 --> 00:19:29,214 he knows for his people to have peace 551 00:19:29,214 --> 00:19:31,695 and prosperity in the future, he's commanded to 552 00:19:31,695 --> 00:19:33,799 kill Laban. And he he hits against this 553 00:19:33,799 --> 00:19:36,119 because that's not what he wants generally, not 554 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:38,039 what he doesn't wanna kill, but these tough 555 00:19:38,039 --> 00:19:40,200 decisions need to be made. Again with the 556 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:41,960 boat. I love his example of building the 557 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,279 ship. He can't do it by himself, or 558 00:19:44,279 --> 00:19:45,960 it'll be more difficult, take longer to do 559 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:47,654 it by himself, And he knows he needs 560 00:19:47,654 --> 00:19:49,815 his brother's help, and he's given this power 561 00:19:49,815 --> 00:19:51,494 by God to two men, really, who have 562 00:19:51,494 --> 00:19:53,194 abused him for a lot of his life 563 00:19:53,335 --> 00:19:55,174 to have kind of power and control over 564 00:19:55,174 --> 00:19:56,694 them. And what does he do? He gives 565 00:19:56,694 --> 00:19:58,615 them just a taste enough to let him 566 00:19:58,615 --> 00:19:59,674 know he means business 567 00:20:00,054 --> 00:20:02,589 and says, okay, now I'm done. Bury the 568 00:20:02,589 --> 00:20:04,429 hatchet. Let's build the ship. Let's get on 569 00:20:04,429 --> 00:20:04,929 mission. 570 00:20:05,230 --> 00:20:08,029 I mean, the restraint that Nephi has coupled 571 00:20:08,029 --> 00:20:10,609 with the ability and power that he has 572 00:20:10,909 --> 00:20:12,669 is, I think, the recipe for a peacemaker. 573 00:20:12,669 --> 00:20:14,589 And then, obviously, when he becomes king of 574 00:20:14,589 --> 00:20:17,174 the Nephi people, there's not much where where 575 00:20:17,174 --> 00:20:18,855 we know about Nephi's reign, but we do 576 00:20:18,855 --> 00:20:20,954 know he built cities and he built weapons. 577 00:20:21,174 --> 00:20:23,174 Now a peaceful man like Nephi, one of 578 00:20:23,174 --> 00:20:24,855 his first things is to, I'm gonna make 579 00:20:24,855 --> 00:20:25,355 weapons. 580 00:20:25,654 --> 00:20:27,595 Kind of out of character except he knows 581 00:20:27,894 --> 00:20:30,200 that war will come, and he wants to 582 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,140 preserve peace for his people. So 583 00:20:32,519 --> 00:20:34,920 Nephi does it, like peace through strength. I 584 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,160 also have Esther in this one, peace through 585 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:38,140 emotional intelligence, 586 00:20:38,519 --> 00:20:40,059 Pahoran, peace through empathy. 587 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,224 So there's it's not always having to be 588 00:20:43,524 --> 00:20:45,384 I'm the strong one to preserve peace, 589 00:20:45,764 --> 00:20:46,984 but the, a peacemaker, 590 00:20:47,524 --> 00:20:49,684 that is their primary goal, and they'll they'll 591 00:20:49,684 --> 00:20:51,444 use the tools at their disposal to make 592 00:20:51,444 --> 00:20:54,250 it happen. Yeah. Very good. And this is 593 00:20:54,250 --> 00:20:55,929 another opportunity for a shout out for president 594 00:20:55,929 --> 00:20:57,210 Nelson that we can never think of a 595 00:20:57,210 --> 00:20:59,929 Peacemaker without thinking of him, which, again, is 596 00:20:59,929 --> 00:21:02,329 is awesome. Right? I just love that message 597 00:21:02,329 --> 00:21:04,329 that will continue to influence us in so 598 00:21:04,329 --> 00:21:06,089 many ways. So And I think president Nelson, 599 00:21:06,089 --> 00:21:08,255 him his you know, I said disruptor, but 600 00:21:08,255 --> 00:21:09,775 you you got it close there with Peacemaker. 601 00:21:09,775 --> 00:21:11,934 And the time that he was serving, everything 602 00:21:11,934 --> 00:21:13,375 that's been happening in the country at the 603 00:21:13,375 --> 00:21:16,115 last during his tenure as profit, I think, 604 00:21:16,335 --> 00:21:18,835 once again, needed needed somebody with his sensibilities. 605 00:21:19,454 --> 00:21:21,920 Yeah. So true. Alright. Let's jump to the 606 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:22,420 exemplar. 607 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,359 Exemplar is your I didn't know a better 608 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:27,119 word for this. I was going back and 609 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,099 forth with friends and family. But exemplar is 610 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,160 leader by example. If you've been on a 611 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,005 sports team before, there's the classic, oh, he's 612 00:21:35,005 --> 00:21:37,085 the team captain. Well, does he say much? 613 00:21:37,085 --> 00:21:38,845 No. But he he kinda shows us how 614 00:21:38,845 --> 00:21:40,525 to do things the right way. In the 615 00:21:40,525 --> 00:21:42,205 military, you say, you know, they lead from 616 00:21:42,205 --> 00:21:44,285 the front, these type of leaders, where they 617 00:21:44,285 --> 00:21:45,984 they say, hey, I'm not one for speeches, 618 00:21:46,049 --> 00:21:48,049 I'm not one for all this touchy feely 619 00:21:48,049 --> 00:21:49,330 stuff, but if you get behind me and 620 00:21:49,330 --> 00:21:50,529 you follow me, I'll show you the right 621 00:21:50,529 --> 00:21:52,710 way to do this. This one was interesting. 622 00:21:53,090 --> 00:21:55,090 I had a couple leaders who stuck out 623 00:21:55,090 --> 00:21:56,690 to me for this one. One that I 624 00:21:56,690 --> 00:21:58,690 think is an interesting case study is King 625 00:21:58,690 --> 00:22:01,134 David, because he is your classic, like, I 626 00:22:01,134 --> 00:22:02,734 mean, what do we first know him from? 627 00:22:02,734 --> 00:22:05,055 David and Goliath, where Yeah. As a young 628 00:22:05,055 --> 00:22:06,894 man, you know, he goes and he's like, 629 00:22:06,894 --> 00:22:07,875 who's this Philistine 630 00:22:08,255 --> 00:22:10,494 mocking the people of God? I'm going to 631 00:22:10,494 --> 00:22:11,934 show you what needs to be done. I'm 632 00:22:11,934 --> 00:22:14,095 gonna be brave in it, inspire the people 633 00:22:14,095 --> 00:22:14,674 of Israel 634 00:22:14,980 --> 00:22:16,279 after he defeated Goliath. 635 00:22:16,740 --> 00:22:19,779 And there's records of David fighting with his 636 00:22:19,779 --> 00:22:21,299 men. He was a lead from the front. 637 00:22:21,299 --> 00:22:23,779 But then also on spiritual matters, David didn't 638 00:22:23,779 --> 00:22:25,859 just talk the talk, he walked the walk. 639 00:22:25,859 --> 00:22:27,380 He wrote the Psalms. He wrote a whole 640 00:22:27,380 --> 00:22:29,815 book of scripture as a warrior king. He 641 00:22:29,815 --> 00:22:31,115 brought the Ark of the Covenant 642 00:22:31,414 --> 00:22:32,875 back in, and it's 643 00:22:33,335 --> 00:22:36,075 David progressed the nation of Israel so much 644 00:22:36,215 --> 00:22:38,695 just by his reputation, the actions he took. 645 00:22:38,695 --> 00:22:40,455 He was a leader by action. And so 646 00:22:40,455 --> 00:22:43,169 interesting about this is that puts a huge 647 00:22:43,169 --> 00:22:45,329 responsibility on the shoulders of an exemplar to 648 00:22:45,329 --> 00:22:45,829 continue 649 00:22:46,289 --> 00:22:48,289 acting that way. Exemplars, I feel like, are 650 00:22:48,289 --> 00:22:50,150 the leaders most often we put on pedestals, 651 00:22:50,289 --> 00:22:52,289 and we think they're perfect because it's not 652 00:22:52,289 --> 00:22:53,809 just what they say. It's like, I wanna 653 00:22:53,809 --> 00:22:55,650 be this person. I wanna do what they 654 00:22:55,650 --> 00:22:58,384 do. And so when they mess up, it 655 00:22:58,384 --> 00:22:59,765 feels like a personal betrayal. 656 00:23:00,144 --> 00:23:01,125 David and Bathsheba, 657 00:23:01,505 --> 00:23:03,184 I don't know how widely known it was 658 00:23:03,184 --> 00:23:05,285 at the time, the depth of his, like, 659 00:23:05,424 --> 00:23:07,984 sin, but, you know, for it's funny when 660 00:23:07,984 --> 00:23:10,319 you talk about King David in the in 661 00:23:10,319 --> 00:23:11,759 Sunday school, it almost feels like you're talking 662 00:23:11,759 --> 00:23:14,480 about two different people because we're so crazy 663 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:15,919 worthy of him and all of his other 664 00:23:15,919 --> 00:23:17,759 stuff. And then almost to to us in 665 00:23:17,759 --> 00:23:19,359 the class feels like a betrayal, but but 666 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:20,720 he did this to us. Like, we were 667 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,559 looking up to him. We wanna follow his 668 00:23:22,559 --> 00:23:24,894 example. How could he do this? And that's 669 00:23:24,894 --> 00:23:26,335 kind of the two edged sword of being 670 00:23:26,335 --> 00:23:27,075 an exemplar. 671 00:23:27,375 --> 00:23:29,134 Yeah. Yeah. That takes my mind, and I 672 00:23:29,134 --> 00:23:31,055 don't know if there's any you know, my, 673 00:23:31,615 --> 00:23:33,214 this thought may fall apart if you, you 674 00:23:33,214 --> 00:23:35,154 know, dug in a little bit further. But, 675 00:23:35,295 --> 00:23:37,474 you know, there's so often where these leadership 676 00:23:38,210 --> 00:23:40,609 attributes that are your your strong suit that 677 00:23:40,609 --> 00:23:42,769 they can sometimes lead you to your downfall 678 00:23:42,769 --> 00:23:44,289 as well. Right? The I mean, the you 679 00:23:44,289 --> 00:23:46,289 think of David's fall of, like, it was 680 00:23:46,289 --> 00:23:48,529 because he took action, and he you know? 681 00:23:48,529 --> 00:23:50,884 And those actions sort of built upon themselves. 682 00:23:51,345 --> 00:23:53,105 And I'm just thinking, like, you know, the 683 00:23:53,105 --> 00:23:55,265 peacemaker with Nephi. I mean, maybe he was 684 00:23:55,265 --> 00:23:56,884 in a moment too much of a peacemaker 685 00:23:56,945 --> 00:23:59,025 where they're actually they actually had to you 686 00:23:59,025 --> 00:24:00,224 know, were were able to tie him to 687 00:24:00,224 --> 00:24:01,744 the master. You know? Like, I'm just thinking 688 00:24:01,744 --> 00:24:04,359 these in in my own leadership where I'd 689 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:06,119 place myself and I kinda see that, yeah, 690 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,279 sometimes I, like, am in that gear so 691 00:24:08,279 --> 00:24:10,359 much that I miss some things or I 692 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:11,159 I don't know. So I don't know if 693 00:24:11,159 --> 00:24:12,519 there's anything to that, but that's where my 694 00:24:12,679 --> 00:24:14,299 that sort of went and intrigued my mind. 695 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,904 No. I think that's why it's important that 696 00:24:17,065 --> 00:24:17,884 all these people 697 00:24:18,664 --> 00:24:20,664 are in this category, but they all showed 698 00:24:20,664 --> 00:24:22,184 other signs of leadership as well, which is 699 00:24:22,184 --> 00:24:23,705 why it's important for us. If you I 700 00:24:23,705 --> 00:24:25,465 mean, was it a one trick pony? Right? 701 00:24:25,465 --> 00:24:27,065 If you do one thing all the time 702 00:24:27,065 --> 00:24:29,565 and you're unable to adapt to different situations 703 00:24:29,705 --> 00:24:31,384 and you try to maybe fit a square 704 00:24:31,384 --> 00:24:33,419 peg through a round hole and it's yeah. 705 00:24:33,419 --> 00:24:35,359 You can put yourself in uncomfortable situations. 706 00:24:35,899 --> 00:24:38,059 Yeah. Like Brigham Young where he was a 707 00:24:38,059 --> 00:24:40,139 builder. That's about and, I mean, you hear 708 00:24:40,139 --> 00:24:42,460 some stories of him sending people out to 709 00:24:42,460 --> 00:24:44,380 places to settle and it just kinda didn't 710 00:24:44,380 --> 00:24:45,980 work or I don't know. I'm sure there's 711 00:24:45,980 --> 00:24:49,335 examples where his gusto of taking action of 712 00:24:49,335 --> 00:24:51,735 building was maybe didn't take time to think 713 00:24:51,735 --> 00:24:52,775 it through because he was just sort of 714 00:24:52,775 --> 00:24:54,775 plowing forward with his strength. You know? That 715 00:24:54,775 --> 00:24:56,695 might be, I think, the best example right 716 00:24:56,695 --> 00:24:59,174 there of somebody taking their strength too far. 717 00:24:59,174 --> 00:25:01,059 I think Yeah. As much as I love 718 00:25:01,059 --> 00:25:03,220 Brigham Young, is it easy to say, you 719 00:25:03,220 --> 00:25:05,619 know, maybe sometimes he went overboard with, some 720 00:25:05,619 --> 00:25:08,500 of his great tendencies of building and pushing 721 00:25:08,500 --> 00:25:10,099 and trying to make people do more. Yeah. 722 00:25:10,099 --> 00:25:11,779 I think that'd be pretty easy to find 723 00:25:11,779 --> 00:25:13,619 some examples. For as great as he was, 724 00:25:13,619 --> 00:25:15,974 as important as he was, I think your 725 00:25:15,974 --> 00:25:17,654 online commenters that you mentioned before might be 726 00:25:17,654 --> 00:25:18,775 able to pull up an example of to 727 00:25:18,775 --> 00:25:20,695 a Brigham Young taking it too far. Yeah. 728 00:25:20,695 --> 00:25:23,015 For sure. Alright. Should we jump to the 729 00:25:23,015 --> 00:25:26,615 the servant leader? Yeah. This one was pretty 730 00:25:26,615 --> 00:25:28,799 easy to find because I think the church, 731 00:25:28,940 --> 00:25:31,420 we kinda build servant leaders. We try to 732 00:25:31,420 --> 00:25:32,859 fall on the model of Christ, and at 733 00:25:32,859 --> 00:25:34,220 the end of the book, I show how 734 00:25:34,220 --> 00:25:35,900 Christ is every one of these leaders, but 735 00:25:35,900 --> 00:25:37,500 I think the way we think of him 736 00:25:37,500 --> 00:25:40,220 most often is as a servant leader, which 737 00:25:40,220 --> 00:25:41,660 the role of the servant leader is to 738 00:25:41,660 --> 00:25:44,095 lift others. It's to help others grow, gain 739 00:25:44,095 --> 00:25:46,174 confidence, and succeed. It is all about the 740 00:25:46,174 --> 00:25:46,674 betterment 741 00:25:47,054 --> 00:25:47,794 of the people 742 00:25:48,095 --> 00:25:50,194 who you lead and really who you serve. 743 00:25:50,414 --> 00:25:52,414 Your job is for them. Who I picked 744 00:25:52,414 --> 00:25:54,974 is, Gail Halberson. For anybody who's seen the 745 00:25:54,974 --> 00:25:57,294 movie Meet the Mormons, you'll be familiar with 746 00:25:57,294 --> 00:25:59,559 him. He's also known as the candy bomber. 747 00:25:59,859 --> 00:26:02,340 This one hit close to home because I 748 00:26:02,340 --> 00:26:04,900 was actually an ROTC instructor at BYU for 749 00:26:04,900 --> 00:26:06,759 one of my assignments as a captain. 750 00:26:07,140 --> 00:26:09,299 And while I was there, we had Gail 751 00:26:09,299 --> 00:26:11,000 Halverson come and speak to the cadets. 752 00:26:11,335 --> 00:26:12,634 And it was amazing, 753 00:26:12,934 --> 00:26:14,215 and I'll go through his story in a 754 00:26:14,215 --> 00:26:16,055 minute, but once you know his story, to 755 00:26:16,055 --> 00:26:17,095 have him there in the room and see 756 00:26:17,095 --> 00:26:18,535 the graciousness that he had and the love 757 00:26:18,535 --> 00:26:20,295 that he had for all of these future 758 00:26:20,295 --> 00:26:20,795 officers, 759 00:26:21,095 --> 00:26:23,994 and understanding the responsibility and just his appreciation 760 00:26:24,134 --> 00:26:26,970 for them just really came yeah. It was 761 00:26:26,970 --> 00:26:28,090 great. And that was just a couple of 762 00:26:28,090 --> 00:26:30,009 months before he died. And when he did 763 00:26:30,009 --> 00:26:31,950 die in 2022, 764 00:26:32,009 --> 00:26:35,049 the ROTC served as kind of the security 765 00:26:35,049 --> 00:26:36,990 and ushers for his for his funeral. 766 00:26:37,325 --> 00:26:39,644 And the people who came to his funeral 767 00:26:39,644 --> 00:26:41,164 were incredible. We had, 768 00:26:41,964 --> 00:26:44,525 General Oakes, four star general, and and General 769 00:26:44,525 --> 00:26:47,105 Authority. We had the German hatache. 770 00:26:47,484 --> 00:26:50,464 We had president Euchtdorf come to speak. And, 771 00:26:50,579 --> 00:26:52,019 you know, they didn't come to speak because 772 00:26:52,019 --> 00:26:53,380 he was a war hero. Like, all the 773 00:26:53,380 --> 00:26:55,700 stories in there were just about, like, how 774 00:26:55,700 --> 00:26:57,380 he touched lives of others, and that's what 775 00:26:57,380 --> 00:26:59,299 a servant leader does. It was for what 776 00:26:59,299 --> 00:27:01,859 Gail Haversen did sorry, I forgot I'm assuming 777 00:27:01,859 --> 00:27:04,875 everybody knows During the World War two, 778 00:27:05,255 --> 00:27:07,654 Berlin was separated into the German side and 779 00:27:07,654 --> 00:27:10,134 the Russian side, and the Russian side, was 780 00:27:10,134 --> 00:27:12,934 essentially starving out the people of Berlin. Russia 781 00:27:12,934 --> 00:27:15,095 and Russia and Germany were on separate sides 782 00:27:15,095 --> 00:27:17,529 of the war, and The US undertook one 783 00:27:17,529 --> 00:27:19,710 of the greatest humanitarian missions of the time. 784 00:27:19,769 --> 00:27:21,789 It was called the Berlin Airlift, where they 785 00:27:21,850 --> 00:27:23,309 air dropped supplies 786 00:27:23,610 --> 00:27:26,250 into the Russian side of Berlin and, you 787 00:27:26,250 --> 00:27:28,430 know, essentially tried to keep the people alive. 788 00:27:28,994 --> 00:27:30,855 And Gil Halvorsen was one of these pilots 789 00:27:31,075 --> 00:27:32,434 dropping in and there was a there was 790 00:27:32,434 --> 00:27:35,154 a literal wall, the Berlin Wall, and a 791 00:27:35,154 --> 00:27:35,974 fence separating 792 00:27:36,434 --> 00:27:38,194 East from West Berlin and he went up 793 00:27:38,194 --> 00:27:39,954 to the fence one day and he saw 794 00:27:39,954 --> 00:27:40,694 a bunch of 795 00:27:41,009 --> 00:27:42,930 children at the fence. And he told the 796 00:27:42,930 --> 00:27:44,450 story to us as well when he came 797 00:27:44,450 --> 00:27:46,289 and visited, and he just saw the look 798 00:27:46,289 --> 00:27:47,890 on their faces. He didn't have hardly anything 799 00:27:47,890 --> 00:27:50,130 to give him. So he had one piece 800 00:27:50,130 --> 00:27:52,210 of gum left, tore the gum into lots 801 00:27:52,210 --> 00:27:53,990 of pieces, and gave it to the children. 802 00:27:54,224 --> 00:27:55,904 And then they passed it around, and then 803 00:27:55,904 --> 00:27:57,424 they took the wrapper and started licking the 804 00:27:57,424 --> 00:27:59,825 wrapper. I apologize. This always gets me choked 805 00:27:59,825 --> 00:28:01,744 up, just, his spirit when he tells it. 806 00:28:01,744 --> 00:28:02,785 And they told him, 807 00:28:03,424 --> 00:28:05,585 hey. Don't worry about us. We'll have food 808 00:28:05,585 --> 00:28:06,704 to eat one day. But if we lose 809 00:28:06,704 --> 00:28:08,220 our freedom, we'll never get it back. 810 00:28:08,619 --> 00:28:10,059 And he took that to heart. You know? 811 00:28:10,059 --> 00:28:11,980 That's a wonderful story in its own right, 812 00:28:11,980 --> 00:28:13,099 him giving the gum. And that's not a 813 00:28:13,099 --> 00:28:14,220 story he could have told the rest of 814 00:28:14,220 --> 00:28:15,980 his life. But what he did is he's 815 00:28:15,980 --> 00:28:18,480 like, okay, kids, I have candy rations. 816 00:28:18,779 --> 00:28:20,460 I'm gonna wiggle my wings when I fly 817 00:28:20,460 --> 00:28:22,275 over, and I'm gonna drop the candy out. 818 00:28:22,275 --> 00:28:24,536 And that's how you'll know it's me when 819 00:28:24,536 --> 00:28:27,079 I when the plane wiggles its wings. And 820 00:28:27,079 --> 00:28:29,341 I don't wanna belabor too long because this 821 00:28:29,341 --> 00:28:31,602 whole thing isn't about brother Halverson, but once 822 00:28:31,602 --> 00:28:33,863 his superiors understood what was going on because 823 00:28:33,863 --> 00:28:36,124 why is this pilot shaking the aircraft upon, 824 00:28:36,407 --> 00:28:37,690 landing, It grew and grew and grew until 825 00:28:37,690 --> 00:28:39,669 it became Operation Little Bittles, and 826 00:28:40,690 --> 00:28:42,289 candy was being sent from all over the 827 00:28:42,289 --> 00:28:44,769 world, and Hershey's itself was sending him candy. 828 00:28:44,769 --> 00:28:46,549 So he's under this whole operation 829 00:28:46,929 --> 00:28:48,849 that, like, years later, you know, when he 830 00:28:48,849 --> 00:28:50,450 went to visit Germany where he has schools 831 00:28:50,450 --> 00:28:52,595 named after him, You know, the German chancellor, 832 00:28:52,815 --> 00:28:54,894 at the time, Angela Merkel, was thanking him 833 00:28:54,894 --> 00:28:56,974 because she had been touched by it. So 834 00:28:57,214 --> 00:29:00,894 Yeah. Servant leader, and I specifically from brother 835 00:29:00,894 --> 00:29:03,214 Halverson, it's the idea that it doesn't take 836 00:29:03,214 --> 00:29:05,535 much for a leader to, you know, to 837 00:29:05,535 --> 00:29:07,910 touch the people under them. I know I've 838 00:29:07,910 --> 00:29:10,150 had opportunities as, when I'm in charge of 839 00:29:10,150 --> 00:29:12,309 maintenance units, you know, you go and it's 840 00:29:12,309 --> 00:29:14,150 the little things. To him, he dropped candy 841 00:29:14,150 --> 00:29:15,830 off for kids. I go when I when 842 00:29:15,830 --> 00:29:17,029 I see one of my airmen doing a 843 00:29:17,029 --> 00:29:18,070 job and I go, like, hey, what are 844 00:29:18,070 --> 00:29:19,664 you doing here? Like, can you explain this 845 00:29:19,664 --> 00:29:21,345 job to me you're doing? They take pride 846 00:29:21,345 --> 00:29:22,644 in their work, they step back, 847 00:29:23,024 --> 00:29:24,865 and I remember as a young lieutenant, I 848 00:29:24,865 --> 00:29:27,024 had a an airman come to me, the 849 00:29:27,024 --> 00:29:28,304 day after I was talking to him just 850 00:29:28,304 --> 00:29:29,744 about his family, the job he was doing. 851 00:29:29,744 --> 00:29:31,024 He's like, hey, sir, I just wanna let 852 00:29:31,024 --> 00:29:32,325 you know how much I appreciated 853 00:29:32,789 --> 00:29:34,390 you doing that. It was five minutes of 854 00:29:34,390 --> 00:29:36,150 my time. I didn't realize what an impact 855 00:29:36,150 --> 00:29:37,350 it would have on him because me, I'm 856 00:29:37,350 --> 00:29:38,710 like, oh, one of my airmen's doing something. 857 00:29:38,710 --> 00:29:40,070 Let me just talk to him real quick. 858 00:29:40,070 --> 00:29:42,390 I don't think leaders understand the impact that 859 00:29:42,390 --> 00:29:44,250 they can have with simple acts of kindness 860 00:29:44,869 --> 00:29:46,230 for over their people. And that's what Gail 861 00:29:46,230 --> 00:29:48,974 Halperson shows. I really appreciate about his story, 862 00:29:48,974 --> 00:29:51,055 and and there's so many this is such 863 00:29:51,055 --> 00:29:54,414 a strong leadership principle of, you know, nobody 864 00:29:54,414 --> 00:29:56,894 ordered him or assigned him to do that. 865 00:29:56,894 --> 00:29:59,615 He perceived a need, and he moved forward 866 00:29:59,615 --> 00:30:01,535 with, you know, fulfilling that need. He you 867 00:30:01,535 --> 00:30:02,335 know? And that's, 868 00:30:03,039 --> 00:30:04,400 I think the more we can do that, 869 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,259 right, where we're not trapped inside 870 00:30:06,799 --> 00:30:09,279 the calling descriptions of what our calling is 871 00:30:09,279 --> 00:30:10,799 and how we're supposed to show up. And, 872 00:30:10,799 --> 00:30:12,000 yeah, I would do that, but that's more 873 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:13,599 of, like, a bishop thing to, like, shake 874 00:30:13,599 --> 00:30:14,799 hands at the back of the room or, 875 00:30:14,799 --> 00:30:16,994 you know, whatever it is. The reality that 876 00:30:16,994 --> 00:30:18,835 we can all step in and perceive a 877 00:30:18,835 --> 00:30:20,755 need and and step up and and fulfill 878 00:30:20,755 --> 00:30:21,414 that need. 879 00:30:21,715 --> 00:30:24,035 A 100% true. And that leads me to 880 00:30:24,035 --> 00:30:25,795 kind of an idea of just this, you 881 00:30:25,795 --> 00:30:26,295 know, 882 00:30:26,595 --> 00:30:28,275 yes, we need to do all these things, 883 00:30:28,275 --> 00:30:29,414 but it has to come 884 00:30:29,730 --> 00:30:30,549 someone naturally. 885 00:30:31,009 --> 00:30:32,369 You can't be going through a checklist in 886 00:30:32,369 --> 00:30:35,109 your mind. So especially in servant leadership, 887 00:30:35,410 --> 00:30:37,730 just follow your instincts to reach out. It's 888 00:30:37,730 --> 00:30:39,250 kinda like following the spirit. Right? If you 889 00:30:39,250 --> 00:30:41,329 have a a good thought, just go and 890 00:30:41,329 --> 00:30:42,929 do it. But if you force yourself like, 891 00:30:42,929 --> 00:30:44,985 oh, I've been told servant leadership is important. 892 00:30:44,985 --> 00:30:47,625 Let me go do x. People aren't stupid. 893 00:30:47,625 --> 00:30:50,345 They can sniff out disingenuous leadership, whether it's 894 00:30:50,345 --> 00:30:51,545 you trying to put on the face of 895 00:30:51,545 --> 00:30:52,904 being a servant leader because you think that's 896 00:30:52,904 --> 00:30:54,184 what you're supposed to do, or you're trying 897 00:30:54,184 --> 00:30:56,369 to be a builder because that's what you've 898 00:30:56,450 --> 00:30:58,369 been told you should be. People sniff it 899 00:30:58,369 --> 00:31:00,690 out, and it it becomes so clear so 900 00:31:00,690 --> 00:31:02,130 quickly that you are not being true to 901 00:31:02,130 --> 00:31:04,690 who you are. Yeah. Love it. The other 902 00:31:04,690 --> 00:31:07,890 ones you feature in this chapter is, Ammon, 903 00:31:07,890 --> 00:31:09,890 which that's one's, like, obvious once you you 904 00:31:09,890 --> 00:31:10,694 mentioned that. 905 00:31:11,014 --> 00:31:14,214 Ammon, Emma Smith, and then colonel Havelson, and 906 00:31:14,214 --> 00:31:15,815 then Heber j Grant. And a name that 907 00:31:15,815 --> 00:31:17,575 came to my mind is I was so 908 00:31:17,575 --> 00:31:20,394 impressed after I read the two biographies of 909 00:31:20,454 --> 00:31:23,095 Spencer w Kimball. Just what a like, in 910 00:31:23,095 --> 00:31:25,410 the simplest moments of the, you know, of 911 00:31:25,410 --> 00:31:27,910 him showing up and being that servant regardless 912 00:31:27,970 --> 00:31:29,730 of his title and, you know, the the 913 00:31:29,730 --> 00:31:32,130 famous airport experience of him holding the child 914 00:31:32,130 --> 00:31:33,730 or the mother's figuring things out. I mean, 915 00:31:33,730 --> 00:31:37,095 there's story upon story that and he his 916 00:31:37,174 --> 00:31:39,734 his Christ like approach to just the simplest 917 00:31:39,734 --> 00:31:42,134 of interactions was was so impressive to me. 918 00:31:42,134 --> 00:31:44,775 So No. I I haven't read as much 919 00:31:44,775 --> 00:31:47,015 about Spencer w Kimball. I I did for 920 00:31:47,015 --> 00:31:48,534 specifically what the chapter I put him in, 921 00:31:48,534 --> 00:31:49,734 but I I, yeah, I need to dig 922 00:31:49,734 --> 00:31:51,015 more into that. Oh, so is he in 923 00:31:51,015 --> 00:31:52,769 the in the book, just not that section? 924 00:31:53,009 --> 00:31:55,570 Yes. Oh, he's, brings us to this the 925 00:31:55,570 --> 00:31:59,570 disruptors here. Right? Yes. Yes. A disruptor is, 926 00:32:00,130 --> 00:32:01,029 somebody who 927 00:32:01,330 --> 00:32:01,990 is not 928 00:32:02,289 --> 00:32:04,849 deterred by the status quo, who has a 929 00:32:04,849 --> 00:32:06,609 very clear vision. They don't wanna tinker around 930 00:32:06,609 --> 00:32:08,994 the edges. They want to make big lasting 931 00:32:08,994 --> 00:32:10,835 change. They need to have the vision and 932 00:32:10,835 --> 00:32:12,914 commitment to hold to that vision. In this 933 00:32:12,914 --> 00:32:14,615 chapter, I have Spencer w Kimball, 934 00:32:15,075 --> 00:32:17,634 not for the entirety of his leadership, but 935 00:32:17,634 --> 00:32:18,994 I I felt like it was important to 936 00:32:18,994 --> 00:32:21,119 address how big of a change bringing the 937 00:32:21,119 --> 00:32:24,000 priesthood to all worthy members Mhmm. All worthy 938 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,059 men, was, and how much courage that actually 939 00:32:27,519 --> 00:32:29,440 took. You know, this is, that was a 940 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:31,359 policy that had gone all the way back 941 00:32:31,359 --> 00:32:32,960 to some people say Joseph Smith, some people 942 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:34,960 say Brigham Young, but you're going over a 943 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,095 hundred plus years and you're saying, yeah, no 944 00:32:37,095 --> 00:32:38,934 more. And it yeah. So I have him 945 00:32:38,934 --> 00:32:40,454 in there for that. I also have Joseph 946 00:32:40,454 --> 00:32:42,615 Smith. I have Paul, who I was gonna 947 00:32:42,615 --> 00:32:46,054 highlight here. Mhmm. So, and Paul's similar, I 948 00:32:46,054 --> 00:32:48,134 would say, is Spencer W Kimball where, you 949 00:32:48,134 --> 00:32:50,694 know, radical first off, the radical change he 950 00:32:50,694 --> 00:32:52,319 had as soon as he got a clear 951 00:32:52,319 --> 00:32:54,339 vision. I mean, going from Saul to Paul, 952 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,500 like, when you put that in real, 953 00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:58,319 like, what that would actually really mean in 954 00:32:58,319 --> 00:33:00,240 your life, that radical kind of change of 955 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,720 just abandoning everything you had worked your entire 956 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,144 life for and doing a one eighty, and 957 00:33:05,144 --> 00:33:07,065 not just doing that change but then becoming 958 00:33:07,065 --> 00:33:09,625 a vocal, like, proponent of that is kind 959 00:33:09,625 --> 00:33:11,865 of a an insane and admirable quality and 960 00:33:11,865 --> 00:33:13,705 something that I think shows how much of 961 00:33:13,705 --> 00:33:15,224 a disruptor he could be even within his 962 00:33:15,224 --> 00:33:17,465 own life. Yep. But then preaching the gospel 963 00:33:17,465 --> 00:33:18,205 to the Gentiles. 964 00:33:18,700 --> 00:33:20,940 There's, a famous conflict that he has with 965 00:33:20,940 --> 00:33:23,340 Peter in the scriptures. Yeah. You know, Peter, 966 00:33:23,340 --> 00:33:25,180 the chief apostle, a man at the right 967 00:33:25,180 --> 00:33:27,420 hand of Jesus. Paul who had never met 968 00:33:27,420 --> 00:33:29,180 Jesus in the flesh, he had seen him 969 00:33:29,180 --> 00:33:31,644 in his vision, but, you know, I'd have 970 00:33:31,644 --> 00:33:33,085 to think that's intimidating. I have to think, 971 00:33:33,085 --> 00:33:35,005 like, as a follower of Christ, he's he 972 00:33:35,005 --> 00:33:37,404 looks up to Peter, and yet, as he 973 00:33:37,404 --> 00:33:39,325 understands it, like, you know, these people are 974 00:33:39,325 --> 00:33:41,964 accepting Christ, the Gentiles, and Peter's refusing to 975 00:33:41,964 --> 00:33:44,365 eat with them because dude, you know, according 976 00:33:44,365 --> 00:33:46,660 to the law, they are not worthy. I 977 00:33:46,660 --> 00:33:48,019 believe it was the law of circumcision. It 978 00:33:48,019 --> 00:33:50,019 was just you couldn't be eating with them 979 00:33:50,019 --> 00:33:51,000 because they were uncircumcised. 980 00:33:51,380 --> 00:33:53,619 And lesser leaders would have been like, you 981 00:33:53,619 --> 00:33:55,640 know what? I'm not gonna ruffle feathers. 982 00:33:56,019 --> 00:33:57,640 Peter's kind of a big deal. 983 00:33:58,420 --> 00:34:00,019 I'm just gonna do my own. He said, 984 00:34:00,019 --> 00:34:02,484 no. He publicly rebukes Peter because the vision 985 00:34:02,484 --> 00:34:04,565 of what he has for the gospel of 986 00:34:04,565 --> 00:34:05,065 Christ 987 00:34:05,445 --> 00:34:08,105 doesn't have any room for that. And so 988 00:34:08,164 --> 00:34:09,525 it was important enough for him in the 989 00:34:09,525 --> 00:34:11,045 moment to do that and then preach that 990 00:34:11,045 --> 00:34:11,545 gospel 991 00:34:11,844 --> 00:34:13,864 throughout. And I think people don't realize 992 00:34:14,164 --> 00:34:15,819 a lot of time within the church how 993 00:34:15,819 --> 00:34:17,900 much of Christianity is really shaped by the 994 00:34:17,900 --> 00:34:20,219 teachings of Paul. Like, a lot of the 995 00:34:20,219 --> 00:34:21,659 scriptures which we quote in the New Testament, 996 00:34:21,659 --> 00:34:23,519 most of them are Paul's epistles. 997 00:34:23,980 --> 00:34:26,780 Yeah. Very true. I and this is I 998 00:34:26,780 --> 00:34:28,380 just love you know, of course, there's no, 999 00:34:28,380 --> 00:34:31,434 like, perfect, like, descriptors of of leadership's gonna 1000 00:34:31,434 --> 00:34:33,195 fit everybody or whatever. But I I appreciate 1001 00:34:33,195 --> 00:34:35,355 someone who's like, let's just take these six 1002 00:34:35,355 --> 00:34:36,574 and see, you know, 1003 00:34:36,954 --> 00:34:38,715 where this leads us. And I think everybody 1004 00:34:38,715 --> 00:34:40,155 could sort of look at these. Like, I'm 1005 00:34:40,155 --> 00:34:42,715 thinking I'm maybe more of a disruptor type 1006 00:34:42,715 --> 00:34:45,179 of leader. Obviously, I started, you know, leading 1007 00:34:45,179 --> 00:34:47,340 saints and doing what we're doing right now 1008 00:34:47,340 --> 00:34:50,300 to disrupt the the culture and disrupt the 1009 00:34:50,300 --> 00:34:52,780 the thinking patterns and and hopefully get people 1010 00:34:52,780 --> 00:34:55,605 to think differently about about different concepts. Right? 1011 00:34:55,764 --> 00:34:57,605 I'm curious, like, what you would say, like, 1012 00:34:57,605 --> 00:34:59,605 just to the average church leader who's, like, 1013 00:34:59,605 --> 00:35:01,764 looking at this. I mean, is it important 1014 00:35:01,764 --> 00:35:03,605 for them to identify the type of leader 1015 00:35:03,605 --> 00:35:05,045 they are or the type of leader they 1016 00:35:05,045 --> 00:35:06,885 wanna be? Or what would you say? I 1017 00:35:06,885 --> 00:35:08,670 would say yes. I think for you to 1018 00:35:08,670 --> 00:35:11,230 grow in any capacity, you need honest self 1019 00:35:11,230 --> 00:35:12,989 assessment. And if you don't wanna do it 1020 00:35:12,989 --> 00:35:16,429 by what Daniel Johnson's leadership categories are, that's 1021 00:35:16,429 --> 00:35:17,949 fine. But I think you need to understand 1022 00:35:17,949 --> 00:35:20,349 who you are before you can grow. Because 1023 00:35:20,349 --> 00:35:22,375 if you understand your own strengths, you can 1024 00:35:22,375 --> 00:35:24,055 develop them. It's it's the principle of the 1025 00:35:24,055 --> 00:35:26,614 talents. Right? God gave us all gave three 1026 00:35:26,614 --> 00:35:29,575 men talents, and some men, you know, bury 1027 00:35:29,575 --> 00:35:31,335 them away and just kind of are fine 1028 00:35:31,335 --> 00:35:33,015 with who they wanna be. But if we 1029 00:35:33,015 --> 00:35:34,695 believe in the idea of internal progression, you 1030 00:35:34,695 --> 00:35:36,510 need to understand what your strengths are to 1031 00:35:36,510 --> 00:35:38,110 continue to grow them so you're not just 1032 00:35:38,110 --> 00:35:40,030 hitting yourself against the brick wall of of 1033 00:35:40,030 --> 00:35:41,630 not growing because you don't know who you 1034 00:35:41,630 --> 00:35:44,269 are. And the idea that I don't none 1035 00:35:44,269 --> 00:35:46,190 of these leadership categories in my mind are 1036 00:35:46,190 --> 00:35:47,789 any better or worse than the other. I 1037 00:35:47,789 --> 00:35:49,150 I like to think of it as, like, 1038 00:35:49,150 --> 00:35:51,390 the analogy of, somebody who's making a pizza. 1039 00:35:51,390 --> 00:35:53,414 You have the same basic ingredients. Leadership is 1040 00:35:53,414 --> 00:35:54,855 the same basic ingredients. You got dough, you 1041 00:35:54,855 --> 00:35:57,655 got sauce, you got toppings, cheese. Some choose 1042 00:35:57,655 --> 00:35:59,575 to make a deep dish, some choose to 1043 00:35:59,575 --> 00:36:02,135 make thin crust Italian pizza, and some choose 1044 00:36:02,135 --> 00:36:03,414 to make the best pizza I've ever had, 1045 00:36:03,414 --> 00:36:04,769 which is Barrow's 1046 00:36:05,150 --> 00:36:06,369 Buffalo Chicken Pizza 1047 00:36:06,670 --> 00:36:07,809 in Phoenix, Arizona. 1048 00:36:08,110 --> 00:36:10,269 Wow. Alright. There's a there's a shout out. 1049 00:36:10,269 --> 00:36:11,710 There you go. There's a plug. Put it 1050 00:36:11,710 --> 00:36:12,450 on my list. 1051 00:36:13,230 --> 00:36:15,390 But yeah. And until you know what your 1052 00:36:15,390 --> 00:36:18,045 natural strengths are, what your spiritual gifts are, 1053 00:36:18,125 --> 00:36:20,125 it's gonna be difficult for you to grow 1054 00:36:20,125 --> 00:36:21,844 and to develop and get better. That's Yeah. 1055 00:36:21,964 --> 00:36:24,125 That's the whole idea of why, like, why 1056 00:36:24,125 --> 00:36:27,244 it's more than just a passing curiosity of, 1057 00:36:27,244 --> 00:36:29,085 oh, okay. That's cool. That's who I am. 1058 00:36:29,085 --> 00:36:30,764 It's like, no. You gotta you gotta know 1059 00:36:30,764 --> 00:36:32,284 who you are so you can test yourself. 1060 00:36:32,284 --> 00:36:33,344 You can grow yourself. 1061 00:36:33,750 --> 00:36:35,909 Yeah. It's powerful. And I'm just thinking there's 1062 00:36:35,909 --> 00:36:37,909 a great book I love called the alter 1063 00:36:37,909 --> 00:36:38,730 ego effect, 1064 00:36:39,110 --> 00:36:41,929 and the author talks about this dynamic of 1065 00:36:42,150 --> 00:36:43,829 a way to, like, bring out the best 1066 00:36:43,829 --> 00:36:46,230 parts of yourself is actually to step into 1067 00:36:46,230 --> 00:36:46,889 a different 1068 00:36:47,190 --> 00:36:50,215 mindset or alter ego. Right? And even when 1069 00:36:50,215 --> 00:36:52,375 it maybe feels a little awkward, it's amazing 1070 00:36:52,375 --> 00:36:54,855 what and it's not about, like, posing or 1071 00:36:54,855 --> 00:36:57,014 pretending like you're something you're not, but it's 1072 00:36:57,014 --> 00:36:58,855 sort of like, I'm gonna show up this 1073 00:36:59,014 --> 00:37:00,135 you know, I'm gonna show up this week 1074 00:37:00,135 --> 00:37:01,655 as if I was Brigham Young. Like, how 1075 00:37:01,655 --> 00:37:03,815 would Brigham Young approach my ward, right, as 1076 00:37:03,815 --> 00:37:06,650 a builder or just with his intricacies and 1077 00:37:06,650 --> 00:37:08,969 and personality? And what happens is you start 1078 00:37:08,969 --> 00:37:11,369 to discover parts of your own personal approaches 1079 00:37:11,369 --> 00:37:14,170 and and styles that, maybe you've been, you 1080 00:37:14,170 --> 00:37:16,329 know, dampering for a while. And so it 1081 00:37:16,329 --> 00:37:18,805 might be an interesting exercise for not only 1082 00:37:18,805 --> 00:37:20,805 people to discover or to think about, you 1083 00:37:20,805 --> 00:37:22,565 know, what what one of these six types 1084 00:37:22,565 --> 00:37:25,125 of leaders am I, but maybe this Sunday, 1085 00:37:25,125 --> 00:37:27,525 I'm gonna be the try to be, like, 1086 00:37:27,525 --> 00:37:29,925 every part the peacemaker that I can be. 1087 00:37:29,925 --> 00:37:31,599 And how would I show up in my 1088 00:37:31,599 --> 00:37:33,359 ward, in my quorum, in my really society 1089 00:37:33,359 --> 00:37:35,599 if I was the peacemaker? Right? And I 1090 00:37:35,599 --> 00:37:37,679 think you'll you'll discover things as as you 1091 00:37:37,679 --> 00:37:40,739 sorta take that that exercise on. Oh, absolutely. 1092 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:42,500 And I think, let's say, 1093 00:37:43,199 --> 00:37:44,559 you've you've been taught your whole life the 1094 00:37:44,559 --> 00:37:46,635 way to lead is to be a great 1095 00:37:46,635 --> 00:37:47,135 communicator. 1096 00:37:47,515 --> 00:37:48,954 Mhmm. And that's what you try to do, 1097 00:37:48,954 --> 00:37:50,235 and you put all your effort into that. 1098 00:37:50,235 --> 00:37:52,155 Maybe that's not your natural try these different 1099 00:37:52,155 --> 00:37:53,275 things, and then all of a sudden you 1100 00:37:53,275 --> 00:37:55,454 discover, wow, I have a lot of skill 1101 00:37:55,594 --> 00:37:58,155 as a servant leader that I didn't really 1102 00:37:58,155 --> 00:38:00,074 know before because I just never I never 1103 00:38:00,074 --> 00:38:02,039 identified that as a path. So, yeah, I 1104 00:38:02,039 --> 00:38:04,199 think there's there's a lot of goodness in 1105 00:38:04,199 --> 00:38:06,680 in testing yourself and trying different things than 1106 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:08,599 maybe you have before. So, Daniel, I gotta 1107 00:38:08,599 --> 00:38:10,460 ask what what kind of leader are you? 1108 00:38:10,519 --> 00:38:12,360 It's changed. It's changed over the years, which 1109 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,360 I think is Yeah. That's another dynamic they 1110 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,494 can have. Right? It can change. Right? I 1111 00:38:16,494 --> 00:38:18,974 consider myself more of a servant leader and 1112 00:38:18,974 --> 00:38:19,474 peacemaker. 1113 00:38:19,934 --> 00:38:21,855 I've developed as a like, I've developed more 1114 00:38:21,855 --> 00:38:23,614 as a communicator. I've developed as a builder, 1115 00:38:23,614 --> 00:38:25,875 but my natural inclination is to 1116 00:38:26,175 --> 00:38:27,954 put the people under me in the positions 1117 00:38:28,014 --> 00:38:28,594 to grow 1118 00:38:28,894 --> 00:38:29,715 and to 1119 00:38:30,050 --> 00:38:31,510 create peace for my organization. 1120 00:38:31,889 --> 00:38:33,409 That's where I've gotten my best results, and 1121 00:38:33,409 --> 00:38:35,010 that's where I've gotten my best feedback. Because 1122 00:38:35,010 --> 00:38:37,250 I've tried, like, to what you say, you 1123 00:38:37,250 --> 00:38:38,789 know, I looked at other leaders, like, 1124 00:38:39,170 --> 00:38:40,690 let me try to do it like them. 1125 00:38:40,690 --> 00:38:42,769 And then I find out soon, like, okay, 1126 00:38:42,769 --> 00:38:44,784 there's some things that can help me here, 1127 00:38:44,784 --> 00:38:46,965 but that's also not me. Yeah. So 1128 00:38:47,265 --> 00:38:48,704 kinda lead out to your your example. I 1129 00:38:48,704 --> 00:38:50,465 think that's the easy way of figuring out 1130 00:38:50,465 --> 00:38:52,144 who you are. Put yourself in these positions 1131 00:38:52,144 --> 00:38:53,585 and you'll find out. But that is me. 1132 00:38:53,585 --> 00:38:55,265 What about you, Curt? Yeah. You said you're 1133 00:38:55,265 --> 00:38:57,069 a little bit of a disruptor. I'd put 1134 00:38:57,069 --> 00:38:58,829 builders there as well. You don't build something 1135 00:38:58,829 --> 00:39:00,750 like bleeding saints with that That's true. With 1136 00:39:00,750 --> 00:39:01,650 having those tendencies. 1137 00:39:02,349 --> 00:39:04,190 Yeah. For sure. I'm just all the things. 1138 00:39:04,190 --> 00:39:05,789 You know, I hate to brag, but, no, 1139 00:39:05,789 --> 00:39:06,109 I'm just 1140 00:39:07,549 --> 00:39:10,510 it's here's an antithesis for you like a 1141 00:39:10,510 --> 00:39:13,194 Australian video. But, anyways, yeah, this is this 1142 00:39:13,194 --> 00:39:14,714 is fun. I'm so glad you wrote this, 1143 00:39:14,714 --> 00:39:17,275 and let's definitely open up. If if somebody 1144 00:39:17,275 --> 00:39:19,675 has a question here in our remote studio 1145 00:39:19,675 --> 00:39:20,175 audience, 1146 00:39:20,635 --> 00:39:22,554 use the hand raise icon. Love to have 1147 00:39:22,554 --> 00:39:24,714 you unmute and ask that. But while people 1148 00:39:24,714 --> 00:39:26,699 think through and get the get the courage 1149 00:39:26,699 --> 00:39:29,099 to speak up, obviously, this is published by 1150 00:39:29,099 --> 00:39:31,500 Cedar Fort, so it's probably available in in 1151 00:39:31,500 --> 00:39:33,179 Desert Book or soon will be. And, of 1152 00:39:33,179 --> 00:39:35,340 course, Amazon, anywhere else you send people for 1153 00:39:35,340 --> 00:39:37,900 the book? Yes. Available on Amazon, available on 1154 00:39:37,900 --> 00:39:38,859 seaterfort.com, 1155 00:39:38,859 --> 00:39:40,480 and is carried by Desert Book. 1156 00:39:40,784 --> 00:39:42,944 Awesome. Very good. And it's not I mean, 1157 00:39:42,944 --> 00:39:44,304 the and the it's not like a thick 1158 00:39:44,304 --> 00:39:46,484 book. Right? So it's not like an encyclopedia 1159 00:39:46,704 --> 00:39:48,864 of all these different leaders, but what a 1160 00:39:48,864 --> 00:39:50,405 great even just spending 1161 00:39:50,864 --> 00:39:53,424 spending time with each, each person, each story 1162 00:39:53,424 --> 00:39:55,409 once a day and reflect on it and 1163 00:39:55,489 --> 00:39:57,010 and see what you can gather from it. 1164 00:39:57,010 --> 00:39:59,969 So Thank you. Awesome. Anybody have a question 1165 00:39:59,969 --> 00:40:01,569 for Daniel you wanna ask? You raise your 1166 00:40:01,569 --> 00:40:03,010 hand or or put it in the chat, 1167 00:40:03,010 --> 00:40:04,609 but it's always fun to when you actually 1168 00:40:04,609 --> 00:40:06,289 speak up and there's other voices on the 1169 00:40:06,289 --> 00:40:09,105 podcast. So, yeah, Dan. That was man, I 1170 00:40:09,105 --> 00:40:10,625 don't know if you're related, but you have 1171 00:40:10,625 --> 00:40:12,164 the same last night. 1172 00:40:14,465 --> 00:40:16,324 I find it interesting about 1173 00:40:16,704 --> 00:40:19,664 Daniel and what type of leader he he 1174 00:40:19,664 --> 00:40:21,844 identifies as. Could you expand more, 1175 00:40:22,210 --> 00:40:24,530 maybe some examples why you think you fall 1176 00:40:24,530 --> 00:40:27,030 in that categories or those two categories 1177 00:40:27,730 --> 00:40:29,809 versus the others? You alluded to it a 1178 00:40:29,809 --> 00:40:32,449 little bit, but what are some things that 1179 00:40:32,449 --> 00:40:33,969 brought that out with you that helped you 1180 00:40:33,969 --> 00:40:35,030 identify that 1181 00:40:35,614 --> 00:40:38,414 that then gave you the opportunity to, I 1182 00:40:38,414 --> 00:40:39,795 guess, hone that in more 1183 00:40:40,175 --> 00:40:43,054 and be better at it for the either 1184 00:40:43,054 --> 00:40:45,234 the unit success, your group success, 1185 00:40:45,614 --> 00:40:48,175 or your particular airman, whoever you were working 1186 00:40:48,175 --> 00:40:49,155 with and yours? 1187 00:40:49,500 --> 00:40:51,820 I'll speak to the the servant leader aspect 1188 00:40:51,820 --> 00:40:53,579 of it because I think that's easier one 1189 00:40:53,579 --> 00:40:55,539 to idel identify. And I I said before, 1190 00:40:55,539 --> 00:40:57,500 I think the church grows servant leaders to 1191 00:40:57,500 --> 00:40:58,079 a degree. 1192 00:40:58,380 --> 00:41:00,780 I found in in my career, as a 1193 00:41:00,780 --> 00:41:02,880 maintenance officer, it's very operationally driven. 1194 00:41:03,284 --> 00:41:05,844 So meaning the there is a large focus 1195 00:41:05,844 --> 00:41:07,144 on mission and results 1196 00:41:07,684 --> 00:41:10,405 as there should be because we provide the 1197 00:41:10,405 --> 00:41:12,885 aircraft that train the pilots. And if you're 1198 00:41:12,885 --> 00:41:14,324 in a combat area, which I've been in 1199 00:41:14,324 --> 00:41:16,804 before, which drop the bombs and if they're 1200 00:41:16,804 --> 00:41:19,660 not ready, there's not much room for for 1201 00:41:19,660 --> 00:41:22,239 softness in that. Mhmm. And so 1202 00:41:22,700 --> 00:41:24,860 when you're put in that peg, you feel 1203 00:41:24,860 --> 00:41:26,140 like, okay. This is all I have to 1204 00:41:26,140 --> 00:41:28,780 be. I found myself fighting against that in 1205 00:41:28,780 --> 00:41:30,880 areas which I could. So meaning, 1206 00:41:31,224 --> 00:41:32,984 hey, like, if something goes wrong, I don't 1207 00:41:32,984 --> 00:41:34,664 wanna put our guys on twelves. I wanna 1208 00:41:34,664 --> 00:41:36,505 put them in position to get rest, to 1209 00:41:36,505 --> 00:41:38,744 get back, and maybe so I tried to 1210 00:41:38,905 --> 00:41:39,804 I found myself 1211 00:41:40,184 --> 00:41:42,045 within the constraints, working with commanders 1212 00:41:42,425 --> 00:41:43,889 to do things that would better help the 1213 00:41:43,889 --> 00:41:45,650 people because my philosophy was if you put 1214 00:41:45,650 --> 00:41:47,489 the people in good positions to succeed, you 1215 00:41:47,489 --> 00:41:48,469 will get better results, 1216 00:41:48,769 --> 00:41:51,170 which goes against the natural inclination a lot 1217 00:41:51,170 --> 00:41:53,329 of times of a career field like aircraft 1218 00:41:53,329 --> 00:41:54,849 maintenance because there's just so little room for 1219 00:41:54,849 --> 00:41:56,630 error and there's so little room for kindness. 1220 00:41:56,905 --> 00:41:58,744 And then I found this expanded when I 1221 00:41:58,744 --> 00:41:59,805 went to teach ROTC 1222 00:42:00,105 --> 00:42:02,265 and I was an instructor responsible not just 1223 00:42:02,265 --> 00:42:04,425 for students, but the development of cadets into 1224 00:42:04,425 --> 00:42:04,925 officers. 1225 00:42:05,385 --> 00:42:08,105 So I just it's a general leadership philosophy 1226 00:42:08,105 --> 00:42:09,940 of mine that if you like I said, 1227 00:42:09,940 --> 00:42:12,019 if you put people in positions where they 1228 00:42:12,019 --> 00:42:14,440 can succeed and grow, you will be rewarded. 1229 00:42:14,980 --> 00:42:17,559 And people are not just parts to be 1230 00:42:17,619 --> 00:42:20,019 moved around, which as you get into larger 1231 00:42:20,019 --> 00:42:22,164 and larger leadership roles with more people, you 1232 00:42:22,164 --> 00:42:23,684 have to remind yourself of because it can 1233 00:42:23,684 --> 00:42:25,304 feel like there are pieces on the chessboard 1234 00:42:25,444 --> 00:42:26,585 if you are not intentionally 1235 00:42:27,125 --> 00:42:28,424 practicing servant leadership. 1236 00:42:28,884 --> 00:42:31,444 Awesome. Leonard, do you wanna go next? I'm 1237 00:42:31,444 --> 00:42:33,764 curious as to get your opinion. Do you 1238 00:42:33,764 --> 00:42:34,505 think prophets 1239 00:42:35,125 --> 00:42:37,639 in the church are brought to the presidency 1240 00:42:38,500 --> 00:42:39,799 because their leadership 1241 00:42:40,179 --> 00:42:40,679 styles 1242 00:42:41,619 --> 00:42:43,559 match the needs of the times, 1243 00:42:44,099 --> 00:42:45,319 or are there situations 1244 00:42:45,619 --> 00:42:47,780 where the president of the church has had 1245 00:42:47,780 --> 00:42:50,359 to change leadership styles to match the needs 1246 00:42:50,500 --> 00:42:51,000 of 1247 00:42:51,534 --> 00:42:52,114 the times. 1248 00:42:52,494 --> 00:42:54,655 Does that make sense? It absolutely does. I 1249 00:42:54,655 --> 00:42:55,795 think both. 1250 00:42:56,094 --> 00:42:58,514 I think in unique circumstances, God absolutely 1251 00:42:59,054 --> 00:43:00,114 has called people 1252 00:43:00,494 --> 00:43:02,574 at certain times to lead the church. I 1253 00:43:02,574 --> 00:43:04,735 think, you know, we just talked about Brigham 1254 00:43:04,735 --> 00:43:07,070 Young, Joseph Smith. I think those two men 1255 00:43:07,289 --> 00:43:09,610 were very specifically called at that time for 1256 00:43:09,610 --> 00:43:11,849 God. But I there are examples of, you 1257 00:43:11,849 --> 00:43:12,989 know, apostles 1258 00:43:13,450 --> 00:43:14,809 who were very focused on one thing, and 1259 00:43:14,809 --> 00:43:16,969 they become present in the church, and they 1260 00:43:16,969 --> 00:43:18,110 they adapt themselves. 1261 00:43:18,444 --> 00:43:20,784 So I think it's absolutely both ways where 1262 00:43:20,844 --> 00:43:22,605 God puts the people who he needs at 1263 00:43:22,605 --> 00:43:24,065 the time he does, but also 1264 00:43:24,444 --> 00:43:26,764 the prophets are better men than most leaders 1265 00:43:26,764 --> 00:43:27,585 and they understand 1266 00:43:28,125 --> 00:43:30,204 that they are tools in the hands of 1267 00:43:30,204 --> 00:43:32,444 God. So whatever they are needed for, they 1268 00:43:32,444 --> 00:43:33,824 will do what they are needed. 1269 00:43:34,219 --> 00:43:35,500 And I think we are just such in 1270 00:43:35,500 --> 00:43:37,900 a blessed state, obviously, because this is God's 1271 00:43:37,900 --> 00:43:39,900 church and he leads and guides it to 1272 00:43:39,900 --> 00:43:42,059 where have gone through so many different changes 1273 00:43:42,059 --> 00:43:42,719 in leadership, 1274 00:43:43,179 --> 00:43:45,099 and we don't have the air of, like, 1275 00:43:45,099 --> 00:43:46,940 oh, let's forget about that prophet because they 1276 00:43:46,940 --> 00:43:49,184 didn't they went completely off the rails. I 1277 00:43:49,344 --> 00:43:50,465 don't think you have to agree with everything 1278 00:43:50,465 --> 00:43:51,824 that every prophet has done, but it is 1279 00:43:51,824 --> 00:43:52,324 clear 1280 00:43:52,625 --> 00:43:54,864 after the fact, like most of, god's work 1281 00:43:54,864 --> 00:43:57,344 among the children of men that, okay, this 1282 00:43:57,344 --> 00:43:58,704 is why this turned out this way. So 1283 00:43:58,704 --> 00:44:00,385 I sorry. It's a bit of a cop 1284 00:44:00,385 --> 00:44:01,925 out, Leonard, but I think both. 1285 00:44:02,224 --> 00:44:04,309 Yeah. I think it will be interesting to 1286 00:44:04,309 --> 00:44:05,849 see our preconceived 1287 00:44:06,469 --> 00:44:08,630 ideas of how president Oaks will lead the 1288 00:44:08,630 --> 00:44:09,849 church versus 1289 00:44:10,150 --> 00:44:12,890 what really happens once he's become the prophet. 1290 00:44:13,190 --> 00:44:15,750 Yeah. Yeah. I definitely had some preconceived notions 1291 00:44:15,750 --> 00:44:18,250 about president Nelson that did not pass, 1292 00:44:18,775 --> 00:44:20,775 as did the secular media. And, 1293 00:44:21,494 --> 00:44:23,735 and I think those of you old enough 1294 00:44:23,735 --> 00:44:26,934 to remember the transition and, with president Benson. 1295 00:44:26,934 --> 00:44:29,755 Right? He was definitely maybe a different personality 1296 00:44:29,894 --> 00:44:30,394 before 1297 00:44:30,775 --> 00:44:32,614 he was in that chair, so it's really 1298 00:44:32,614 --> 00:44:34,859 interesting. And and I don't know. Sometimes, that's 1299 00:44:34,859 --> 00:44:36,299 a really interesting question to think about. I 1300 00:44:36,299 --> 00:44:38,000 think naturally as 1301 00:44:38,380 --> 00:44:39,519 religious people, 1302 00:44:39,900 --> 00:44:42,299 you know, that believes in revelation and inspiration, 1303 00:44:42,299 --> 00:44:44,619 we we sometimes put more meaning behind things 1304 00:44:44,619 --> 00:44:46,644 than maybe is intended where, again, in a 1305 00:44:46,644 --> 00:44:48,424 parallel universe, let's imagine 1306 00:44:48,724 --> 00:44:50,324 president Nelson served at the time of president 1307 00:44:50,324 --> 00:44:51,924 Hinckley and president Hinckley in the time of 1308 00:44:51,924 --> 00:44:54,724 president Nelson. Because right now we're saying, oh, 1309 00:44:54,724 --> 00:44:57,204 isn't it cool that a doctor was, you 1310 00:44:57,204 --> 00:44:58,644 know, the president of the church during a 1311 00:44:58,644 --> 00:45:00,970 pandemic? But we could have said, isn't it 1312 00:45:00,970 --> 00:45:02,970 cool that president Hinckley is the prophet during 1313 00:45:02,970 --> 00:45:04,890 a pandemic because he's a great communicator? And 1314 00:45:04,890 --> 00:45:06,730 in this world of social media, he's just 1315 00:45:06,730 --> 00:45:08,430 out there doing his thing. Right? And so 1316 00:45:08,570 --> 00:45:10,570 sometimes we put more meaning there, but it 1317 00:45:10,570 --> 00:45:13,289 is interesting to see I think that that's 1318 00:45:13,289 --> 00:45:15,085 a unique thing we have is we 1319 00:45:15,385 --> 00:45:17,164 we've seen president Oakes 1320 00:45:17,625 --> 00:45:20,505 develop as a leader since, well, 1985, 1321 00:45:20,505 --> 00:45:23,304 really, where we saw his conference talks and 1322 00:45:23,304 --> 00:45:25,644 different positions he served in. And, you know, 1323 00:45:25,784 --> 00:45:27,545 I think that's a it's an interesting leadership 1324 00:45:27,545 --> 00:45:29,849 lesson for sure. Yeah. I think you're absolutely 1325 00:45:29,849 --> 00:45:31,849 right there. I with president Oakes and especially, 1326 00:45:31,849 --> 00:45:33,230 he's been in so many leadership 1327 00:45:33,690 --> 00:45:36,010 scenarios that have been well documented throughout his 1328 00:45:36,010 --> 00:45:38,090 career as, you know, president of Brigham Young 1329 00:45:38,090 --> 00:45:39,930 University. He was the assistant dean at the 1330 00:45:39,930 --> 00:45:42,534 Chicago School of Law. So we already know 1331 00:45:42,534 --> 00:45:43,894 who he is as a person. So who 1332 00:45:43,894 --> 00:45:45,434 he is as a prophet will be 1333 00:45:45,735 --> 00:45:47,655 very, very interesting. But like you said, president 1334 00:45:47,655 --> 00:45:49,414 Nelson is one of those that as an 1335 00:45:49,414 --> 00:45:51,414 apostle, you're kinda like, okay, I'd he'll be 1336 00:45:51,414 --> 00:45:53,574 pretty pretty steady, pretty regular prophet. He just 1337 00:45:53,574 --> 00:45:56,319 came in guns blazing, which is fantastic. Yeah. 1338 00:45:56,319 --> 00:45:58,079 And maybe in the nineties, president Nelson would 1339 00:45:58,079 --> 00:46:00,079 have said, oh, we're gonna build 200 temples, 1340 00:46:00,079 --> 00:46:01,300 not 100. You know? 1341 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:03,599 So he definitely had his, 1342 00:46:04,159 --> 00:46:06,900 he got his 200 temples. So Yes. Awesome. 1343 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,364 Well, Daniel, this has been fantastic, and I'm 1344 00:46:09,364 --> 00:46:11,444 so glad you hopefully, this is one of 1345 00:46:11,444 --> 00:46:13,284 many books that you you put out and 1346 00:46:13,284 --> 00:46:15,605 you keep writing, and the I'm sure there's 1347 00:46:15,605 --> 00:46:18,244 other leaders to explore and things like that. 1348 00:46:18,244 --> 00:46:19,605 So we we wish you well on that 1349 00:46:19,605 --> 00:46:21,605 journey. The last question I have for you, 1350 00:46:21,605 --> 00:46:22,105 especially, 1351 00:46:22,484 --> 00:46:24,989 I love interviewing military guys because, you know, 1352 00:46:24,989 --> 00:46:25,650 there's just 1353 00:46:25,949 --> 00:46:26,530 a extra 1354 00:46:27,070 --> 00:46:29,469 edge of leadership when it comes to the 1355 00:46:29,469 --> 00:46:32,590 military when you're literally under fire and, you 1356 00:46:32,590 --> 00:46:35,469 know, you need to really lead people when 1357 00:46:35,469 --> 00:46:37,550 lives are at stake. I'm just curious as 1358 00:46:37,550 --> 00:46:39,809 you reflect on your time as a leader, 1359 00:46:40,025 --> 00:46:41,785 maybe in the church, but also in the 1360 00:46:41,785 --> 00:46:43,465 air force. How has being a leader helped 1361 00:46:43,465 --> 00:46:45,724 you become a better follower of Jesus Christ? 1362 00:46:46,025 --> 00:46:48,344 I think there's a lot of assumptions made. 1363 00:46:48,344 --> 00:46:50,184 When you are in an organization of any 1364 00:46:50,184 --> 00:46:51,244 kind, family, 1365 00:46:51,864 --> 00:46:52,364 ward, 1366 00:46:52,910 --> 00:46:56,110 job, you make assumptions about why decisions are 1367 00:46:56,110 --> 00:46:58,910 made and how easily they are made. And 1368 00:46:58,910 --> 00:47:00,829 being a leader and being in the room 1369 00:47:01,070 --> 00:47:02,510 having to make tough decisions on my own 1370 00:47:02,510 --> 00:47:04,450 and then being in the room where decisions 1371 00:47:04,510 --> 00:47:06,210 are made that affect a lot of people 1372 00:47:06,590 --> 00:47:08,405 and seeing the good leaders 1373 00:47:08,785 --> 00:47:09,285 who 1374 00:47:09,744 --> 00:47:12,224 the care and thought and time they put 1375 00:47:12,224 --> 00:47:14,885 into that and the emotional toll it takes 1376 00:47:15,105 --> 00:47:16,565 makes me just think of 1377 00:47:17,105 --> 00:47:19,585 God and Christ who are the perfect example 1378 00:47:19,585 --> 00:47:20,244 of leaders, 1379 00:47:20,625 --> 00:47:21,125 and 1380 00:47:21,489 --> 00:47:22,230 how much 1381 00:47:22,610 --> 00:47:24,309 care and time and 1382 00:47:24,930 --> 00:47:27,730 consideration and sometimes pain is put into all 1383 00:47:27,730 --> 00:47:29,670 of their decisions for us as their children 1384 00:47:29,809 --> 00:47:30,710 for our betterment. 1385 00:47:31,170 --> 00:47:33,809 So it's weird to say it has given 1386 00:47:33,809 --> 00:47:35,744 me a greater understanding than I would have 1387 00:47:35,744 --> 00:47:38,484 had before of maybe just God's relationship 1388 00:47:38,864 --> 00:47:39,844 with us and 1389 00:47:40,224 --> 00:47:43,344 more patience with trials as they come. Because 1390 00:47:43,344 --> 00:47:45,824 I understand, okay, this has been put here 1391 00:47:45,824 --> 00:47:47,905 before me. There's an opportunity for me to 1392 00:47:47,905 --> 00:47:50,130 grow. How do I not waste this opportunity 1393 00:47:50,130 --> 00:47:51,750 that God has given me? Because obviously, 1394 00:47:52,050 --> 00:47:53,269 I believe he's in control. 1395 00:48:00,769 --> 00:48:03,089 The end. That's it for this Leading Saints 1396 00:48:03,089 --> 00:48:05,135 episode. I encourage you to check out some 1397 00:48:05,135 --> 00:48:07,295 of the most popular episodes of the podcast 1398 00:48:07,295 --> 00:48:08,894 that we list at the bottom of the 1399 00:48:08,894 --> 00:48:10,894 show notes. If you haven't listened to all 1400 00:48:10,894 --> 00:48:12,514 of those, do so now. 1401 00:48:23,430 --> 00:48:25,910 It came as a result of the position 1402 00:48:25,910 --> 00:48:28,969 of leadership which was imposed upon us 1403 00:48:29,349 --> 00:48:31,450 by the God of heaven who brought 1404 00:48:31,844 --> 00:48:33,065 forth a restoration 1405 00:48:33,364 --> 00:48:35,704 of the gospel of Jesus Christ. 1406 00:48:36,405 --> 00:48:37,385 When the declaration 1407 00:48:37,764 --> 00:48:38,425 was made 1408 00:48:38,724 --> 00:48:40,105 concerning the only 1409 00:48:40,804 --> 00:48:43,204 true and living Church upon the face of 1410 00:48:43,204 --> 00:48:43,864 the earth, 1411 00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,059 We were immediately put in a position of 1412 00:48:47,199 --> 00:48:47,699 loneliness, 1413 00:48:48,079 --> 00:48:49,699 the loneliness of leadership 1414 00:48:50,319 --> 00:48:53,299 from which we cannot shrink nor run away, 1415 00:48:54,079 --> 00:48:56,480 and to which we must face up with 1416 00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:58,019 boldness and courage 1417 00:48:58,559 --> 00:48:59,299 and ability.