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Alright. I'm gonna call some of you out.
Okay? This is where I'm just here to
help, but do you have a disability specialist
in your ward? It's in the handbook, folks.
Alright. So let's get on board, make sure
we have a disability specialist, and we are
putting out resources like this episode
to not only disability specialists, but to ward
councils, bishoprics,
whomever would benefit from these things to talk
about
autism and the spectrum of autism. And I
have some phenomenal duo to bring into the
leading saints podcast to talk about this. I
talk with Liberty Kepford and Robert Johnson
who wrote a book called autism in Christ's
church, a phenomenal resource.
There's not a ton of these types of
resources out there. So when they come along,
we gotta jump on them, make sure they're
available. This is one maybe to put in
the the Bishop library that every Bishop's office
should have where disability specialists in the ward
can better understand the stories of autism in
the church, how individuals with autism have benefited
from a community, from a ward, from callings,
from all the things. Right? And also maybe
the, unfortunately,
experiences that happen that we can now learn
from together to keep people engaged in the
church who are maybe more atypical.
And this church is for everyone, right? We're
we're gathering Israel and, we get all types
of neurodivergent
individuals in that group. And so wanted to
add this to a list of resources that
we've put out there in leading saints. We're
going to put those episodes, the past episodes
we've done about this topic of autism and,
the special needs and so forth in the
show notes so that you can jump to
those after listening to this discussion. And like
we are continually doing, this is a live
stream recorded
episode. So over at Zion Lab, if you
haven't joined us over there, do so. But
we're, recording these episodes with a live studio
audience who's, tuning in remotely. And so we
get some some q and a at the
end, and it's more interactive experience. And so
keep your eye on Zion Lab to join
us for future episodes about all sorts of
episodes. Now let's get to it. Here's my
interview with Liberty Kepford
and Robert Johnson, the authors of autism in
Christ's
Church. Alright. We got, Liberty Kepford and Robert
Johnson. This is a father daughter duo. Who's
that's written the book, autism in Christ's church.
So Liberty, let's start with you. Where where
did the idea come from to write this
book? Well, it started more with my dad
that he's worked with people with autism and
in the church,
but I had a little more writing experience,
more time to work on a project like
that. And so he recruited me to
join him. I interviewed
a lot of different individuals and families about
their experience with autism in the church
and compiled that together and then worked with
my dad to provide
some extra tips analysis to go along with
those stories.
Nice. So, Robert, what's your expertise then? I
was a special education teacher for thirty years,
and I've been a board certified behavior analyst
providing ABA services to individuals with autism
for about seventeen years.
And many, many times,
I would work with wonderful families,
and
they had a very hard time staying in
the church,
at least attending church,
and they felt very alone. They felt like
it was just so difficult.
And that was that was my thought is
if I could bring together some stories, some
information
that could encourage them, inspire them,
then they might have a better chance of
being successful.
Yeah. That's awesome. So in those, you said
about seventeen years. Was this like a more
like a therapy type setting that you're working
with individuals or families, or what what did
that look like day to day? As an
ABA
therapist,
I'm kinda like a doctor, and I have
registered behavioral technicians that work directly with individuals
anywhere from five to twenty hours a week.
And they run programs,
communication,
social, emotional.
We work on replacement behaviors, a whole series
of things to help them
be successful,
in the community, in the schools. Those are
run-in homes,
in schools, and in a center. We have
a center. That's awesome. And so has there
been, like,
have there over the years, have you noticed
other resources,
you know, for Latter day Saints in relation
to autism? Or There are starting to be
more resources available.
But
as it the ABA world and the, you
could say, the religious world are usually pretty
separate.
I'm unique in that case. I mean, there's
a few little,
like, websites and, you know, blogs and things
like that.
But as it relates
specifically
to
God, very few. There's very few out there.
Yeah. Well, this is great that you wrote
this book, and it is primarily focused on
an LDS audience. I mean, that's a reference
to Christ's church. Right? Yes. Though I think
that anybody that believes in Christ and and
attends
could probably benefit greatly from it, but it's
definitely
the stories are all members of the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. Nice.
Now, Liberty, maybe tell me a little bit
more about the story component of this because
this isn't like, here's the, you know, the
five chapters, the five step plan of just
making church awesome or religion awesome for
individuals and families, you know, who, they experience
autism.
What what's the story component in the the
structure of the book? Well, this is a
big reason of why we structured it this
way is autism looks really different for different
people. It's a spectrum,
and
we wanted to show that. And so just
like you said, it's not like this is
what you need to do to be successful
in the church because there's not
specific steps that would be perfect for that.
But it just shows
stories of people of different ages and abilities
and genders and their experience.
And there's some really awesome experiences
and some harder ones, but to showcase all
of that, there's 29 different stories, like you
said, and how the book is structured is
it's roughly in age order. And so that
could help as you're reading it. If you
have a family member with autism or you
have autism, or you are a leader over
people with autism, they can turn to stories,
similar age group.
There's also an index and a topical guide
at the back so that you can look
for specific
topics. So like if you wanna hear stories
about individuals
passing the sacrament with autism and what that
was like for them, you can go and
find all the page numbers to help with
your unique situation.
Fantastic.
So Liberty, what was your experience with autism
or individuals with autism before diving into this
project? It's a good question. It was a
lot less formal than my dad's. Growing up
with my dad, I heard a lot
of behavior
language all the time, heard about his work.
And then I worked as a
behavior technician a few different times
when I was at college and a little
in high school. But mostly it was just
as a community member, as a member of
the ward
that when I was writing this book, I
had
a few
people. I was in serving in the primary
at that time. There were some kids in
the primary with autism, some different people in
the ward. And on my mission, I met
different people with autism. So just as a
friend and a ward member, I knew people.
Yeah. And, Robert, for you, what,
you know, what led you down this path
of special education and and doing your the
career that you had? Several things. I just
wanted to add one thing Oh, sure. To
the book. At the end of each chapter,
there's just a short section with a few
strategies,
and they're fairly basic. And those strategies
are also indexed in the end. That's usually
what people want. They want Yeah. They What
do I do? Right? I don't And they're
they're I mean, they're not too specific, but
I actually got into the field by accident.
I
was doing engineering,
and I I wanted to maybe be a
history teacher.
And I worked with special needs kids at
the pool
and doing best buddies,
and
I thought, well, maybe I should I kinda
was thinking about doing history.
I went in and asked if I could
get a minor, and I loved it so
much. And here I am
years later. Yeah. That's great. Now oftentimes, you'll
hear as people talk about autism or they
interact with individuals who are autistic,
they'll say, oh, that he or she is
on the spectrum. Right? And, I think we've
experienced different,
you know, different places on that spectrum with
depending on individuals. How would you explain this
dynamic, Robert, as far as the spectrum
that autism represents?
On maybe the lower end of the spectrum,
you might have an individual
that has
intellectual disabilities. Maybe their IQ is, like, around
50. They're nonverbal.
They might have some very
aggressive challenging behaviors.
And as we move up, at the very
opposite end, they might have an IQ of
a 170
and be so focused on science. There's one
story about
a a a wonderful lady that had that
has a law degree, works in a law
office, and they're they're they have this knit
real narrow focus, but they struggle with communication
skills, social skills, sometimes coping skills. And then
everything in the middle in lots of different
variations
covers quite a vast array. So you'll find,
especially with younger kids, those with aggressive behaviors
that have a hard time sitting and they're
very loud and they have a lot of
stems, those are the ones that get the
attention.
And we're seeing
now young adults that were maybe introverts, more
quiet, pretty high
intellectual, and they leave home and they go
out into the world and they they can't
function quite very, very well, and so they're
getting a diagnosis a little bit later in
life, usually between 18 and 30. There's just
a lot that are finding that they're getting
those diagnosis
because
in school, there's great structure. There's a routine.
Things are very predictable. There's a big support
network. They leave home, and they lose a
lot of those supports, and they just can't
they just can't make it.
Yeah. And so as far as, you know,
your work and your the book is concerned,
I mean, we're we're talking about, you know,
the autism in in Christchurch. You know, this
may be those who are maybe have extreme
handicaps or nonverbal or it's it's obvious that
maybe they're they're atypical as opposed to somebody
who may be the bishop, right, and experiences
some level of of autism.
And that is correct. We have,
stories of mothers that have autism that are
trying to be parents. We have older individuals
like this, the one lady that is a
lawyer, and everything in between. Those that have
served missions and are mission age, young single
adults,
and quite a number
of youth and primary age children. Liberty, anything
that we're missing here so far that that
you wanted to add? We have high functioning.
We also have the lower functioning. We have
some especially younger kids that we talk to
their families who are nonverbal or are lower
on the spectrum there. That's also represented.
Awesome.
So let's imagine in a hypothetical world, we're
able to gather all the wards, all the,
like, the ward councils
of wards that have at least one autistic
individual
in the ward. And we gather in this
conference, and you two are the the keynote
speakers here. Where where's a good,
jumping off point
to I mean, where where would you start
with that group of of church leaders?
Well, I would say is my biggest takeaway
of talking to these families is that disability
specialists are so important.
Disability specialist is a calling in the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints at
the ward and stake level
that I think is underutilized.
I haven't seen it in action that often,
but so many stories
involved either a disability specialist that made a
huge difference or families that needed extra support
and a disability specialist
could have made a big difference.
An example of this is
the first story in the book is a
mom telling
about her two kids with autism. They're
toddlers. There's there's a nursery age and one
just starting primary,
and
they were a little lower on
this
spectrum.
And she wanted church to be rejuvenating
place for her and a time to worship
and be with her peers. But all the
time she was just with her kids and
helping them because church was a lot for
them. And it was so exhausting and she
had to ask to be released from her
calling and she was just following her kids
around all the time.
And that was pretty typical of parents with
young kids with autism that I talked with.
But there were a few that I talked
with who had a disability specialist. Someone was
called specifically to be with their child.
So one story, there's this little boy in
primary,
and he would get overstimulated. It was hard
for him to stay in there. But this
man was called to be a disability specialist
and he would go walk the halls with
him when he needed to step out. He
would talk with the primary teachers, help make
things the best they could for this boy
so that the primary teachers is also focused
on all the other kids.
And so I'm very passionate about having disability
specialists.
Yeah. Love it.
Robert, anything you'd add to the disability specialist
dynamic?
To be a disability specialist,
you need to just be confident.
You need to care.
You don't need to know a lot. You'll
learn that along the way. But if you
are willing if you're a compassionate person, if
you want to help out, if you like
to be with, these mostly children as or
those that have used it in our book.
But and and if you'll just listen and
be aware, you can make a huge difference.
You don't have to have any special skills.
There's something about consistency and routine and knowing
a little bit about the child and showing
some love and kindness that just makes all
of the difference, just all of the difference.
And there's quite a few, like Liberty said,
stories of how the child would wanna go
sit with them in sacrament, meaning that they
just make the difference between
wanting to run out all of the time
and actually staying and learning and listening and
and having an experience and allowing the parents
to also have a spiritual experience at church.
Yeah. One other story with disability specialist, it
was mostly with primary age kids. But there
was one young woman's story, which I thought
was really powerful
that she had a hard time connecting with
her peers and young women's, but they didn't
always wanna talk about the same things. And
she had a hard time wanting to go
to activities.
But they called a disability specialist who she
was a young adult, newly married woman, and
her calling was to go to young women's
and Sunday school and youth activities with this
girl. And they'd sit on the side and
they'd talk about cats and anime and whatever
she wanted to talk about. And it made
such a big difference to her that she
started wanting to go to those activities.
So either even with older with youth and
adults,
disability specialists can make a big difference.
I love that.
So, obviously, I'm I'm thinking of, like, the
music calling sometimes where, you know, those who
play the organ or the piano, they kinda
get pigeonholed and things like, well, hey. You
you've got experience with this, so why don't
we call you as the organist or whatever
it is? And I would imagine
maybe a lot of leaders fall into this
trap of being like, well, let's see. Cindy
has autism, and her mom is in our
ward. Let's call her mom as a disability
specialist, and I'm gathering that's maybe not the
best strategy.
Yeah. Really common in the book is moms
who end up being their kids' primary teacher
and young woman's leader and just following them
all through because they know how to help
them. And so I think sometimes it can
be a good fit, but helpful to give
them a break to be able to do
other things. Yeah. Because this isn't necessarily all
about the individual with autism. It could be
those loved ones surrounding them that you want
them to enjoy church and to
participate and have a sanctifying experience. But if
they're, you know, just doing what they do
at home anyways of, you know, keeping
track of the individual and helping them with
their behavior or whatever, then kinda it can
really, you know, hurt the the the household.
Right? And I'm just gonna add, I wanna
be positive,
but for every person that was focused on
in our story,
in our book, there's probably 30
that that that aren't there Yeah. Because
it was hard, and they didn't have the
support network, and they gave up at least
for a period.
The likelihood
like, some of the statistics
for families that have an a child with
autism is, like, there's, like, a three times
greater chance of divorce.
It's very easy to feel alone and
just, like, it's too hard. And to get
up and get your child there
is, you know, you you think about how
how hard it was just to get your
own children there. It's just compounded and and
magnified.
And especially if you're a single mom, which
so many of my clients are, it's just
for grandmas. Many of the stories talk about
the grandmas
that are raising these some of these kids.
It's hard. Yeah.
Like, with the disability specialists, obviously, you know,
this is a calling that's in the handbook.
You know, there's some guidance, there's resources,
There's and I believe there's a great, you
know this thing's like great Facebook group about
disability specialists that I think that I've I've
seen and resources like that.
What advice would you give to a ward
who's like, well, it doesn't seem like we
need, you know, disability specialist. I mean, should
they just have one no matter what, or
should they wait for that apparent need to
be present? There's a couple of principles.
We're talking primarily to,
like, leaders of the church that
the greatest revelation I think that god gives
to his children
come to parents about their children.
When a mother and a father are just
working so hard to try and figure things
out,
God teaches them a lot.
And the leader should listen to those parents.
They should go talk to them and find
out what they need. A disability specialist,
might look like somebody that that's assigned as
a minister that just is their friend, and
they might not need somebody at church. Most
of the stories that we talk about have
somebody at church. And so listen to those
parents. They know and also empower those parents.
Sometimes it's just, as we talked about earlier,
to make them in charge, but just giving
them knowledge and resources.
One of the stories talks about them bringing
their own
RBT to church with them. And as I
went through some of these stories, I was
amazed at how many of the RBTs that
worked with some of these children were members
of the church already
and naturally
were very concerned and helped them. The second
principle What's the what's the RBT? A registered
behavioral technician. Okay. Got it. It's the
and a lot of the stories, they weren't
part of it, but anybody that receives ABA
services gets it from a registered behavioral technician.
That's what Liberty was for a while.
All my girls got that opportunity as they
were growing up. The other principle
is that leaders have the right to revelation.
And as as they listen and as that
revelation sometimes it doesn't have to be the
bishop.
Maybe it's the primary president. Maybe it's the
young woman's leader. Maybe it's one of the
youth in the young women. We have the
story of Olivia
and one of the members of the ward,
that was actually one of my daughters,
Carolina,
befriended her and they got really close.
And she was kind of like the disability
specialist. She never had that title, but she
was there at the right times and she
would they would talk before an activity. If
it was too loud, Olivia would just stay
home. But if she came, she'd explain what
was gonna happen and she could come sit
by her and talk, and Carolina would introduce
her to other people. And it worked really,
really well.
So if you just pay attention, there might
be a natural person
that just kind of gravitates,
but revelation, I think that's why there's no
right answers.
There isn't, like, do this, this, and this,
and you'll be covered in your award.
No. When the need arises,
look at, listen,
and communicate, and the right answers will come.
Is it off the wall idea to involve,
like, a youth as a disability specialist that,
especially if the the autistic individuals is youth
age? I think that'd be great. And I
think even in wards, there could be a
team of disability specialists depending on the needs.
So maybe there'd be, like, a young woman,
a young man, an adult,
depending on who needs the extra help. Awesome.
Anything to add to that, Robert? There's kind
of a a a feeling that if you're
on the spectrum,
you don't really need social interaction,
and that's not true.
It's usually they like fewer people, and they
have deeper relationships with the few that they
have. They need
that just as much as anybody else. And
it's so much easier for a youth to
visit with another youth. It's so much more
powerful to have that relationship
than to have somebody that's twenty years older
than them come in. And so yeah. Yeah.
That's great.
Talk to me about as far as councils
go,
how should councils be involved or what's the
thought behind that? The church loves to use
councils,
and councils
create
really good revelation
because the people
that are closest that have that information
are able to share and we work together.
And when we think of councils, you, you
know, think of a ward council or a
youth council,
and those are important.
But
when you are supporting a child
with autism
in the church,
the disability specialist,
you know, say it's a primary child, and
there's the disability specialist, there's the parent, maybe
there's the primary counselor that's kind of over
that. And if those individuals
work together and regularly
meet
and have some very specific goals
and they get some training if they need
to, maybe from a stake person or from
an outside, I don't wherever that those expertise
are, and they work towards
the goal,
they will get much better results than if
you're just like, oh, here's a bit disability
specialist, you go work with them, and
the disability specialist that may not know very
much, there isn't a lot of communication,
and things fall apart quite regularly.
And it doesn't take very much time. You
know, you could meet for five minutes after
church and just talk about how it went,
what are your goals, what do we need,
what resources could we pull in, and you
just go forward.
And so that's one vision of a council.
Perfect. Very good. Anything you'd add to that,
Liberty?
Yeah.
Almost every story that we have in here
dealing with parents and talking about their kids,
of huge aspect was communication that they were
communicating
with their children's leaders and teachers to make
that work. And I think a council is
a great setting for that. In a public
school setting, if a kid has autism or
different disabilities,
they'll
meet every few months. My dad would know
better than me, but meet to talk about
their individualized education plan.
And that would be a whole team that
it would be the teacher and the administrator
and the special ed teacher that they'd meet
together and talk about the child and their
goals and how they're doing. And I think
something very similar
in a church setting is important.
Yeah. And I would imagine it's easy for
that group to just be like, you know,
I'm the disability specialist. That means I just
try and distract Johnny for two hours so
that, you know, the rest of church can
happen when it's Best snacks. What's that? I
have the best snacks and they'll put That's
right. Yeah. Bring the snacks. Let's just, you
know, pace the the hallways and get through
it and move on. But there's probably a
lot more to that because, like you said,
they need they need social engagement.
That doesn't mean you just you know, you're
just trying to distract them the whole time.
How can we work them in in a
way that's not overly distracting or, you know,
that's benefit that everybody can benefit from, you
know, their life.
I think with that, there's a lot to
be said to be flexible with individuals with
autism and their families. Like, we have one
story with this little boy who got overstimulated
in primary, especially during singing time. And so
his mom talked with one of the members
of the primary presidency and they switched. So
he'd have class with his peers, just a
few of them before singing time. So that
if that was too stressful, it wouldn't affect
the class time. So just little adjustments can
be made that can help a lot.
That's great. Great example.
In relation to the too deep concept, obviously,
if it's, you know, if it's a youth,
just like all youth and their children, there's
always gonna be a too deep, you know,
leader teacher dynamic happening.
Is there anything outside the normal that wouldn't
be encouraged there or same same idea? You
wouldn't want to have one of the teachers
be the disability specialist because
it's very likely that you're gonna have to
leave quite regularly Yeah. Depending on the situation.
And so I don't know. That's one of
those things you'd have to work out locally.
Yeah. And if, obviously, that disability specialist has
to leave with that individual, again, that two
d leadership is is needed wherever they go.
Right? So very good. Very good. What was
the story that stood out, that you wrote
about in the book? One story we've taught
a lot about primary kids, but one about
an adult
was this man named Spencer.
And
he
when he was young in primary,
he had a disability specialist that helped him
out. And then he had a really good
ward support as a young man, and he
got help blessing and passing the sacrament and
really enjoyed that and kind of got a
community there.
But then he moved
when I think he was a priest
to a different ward, and the transition was
really tough. And
I think the story was really interesting because
he was the same, but just how his
leaders responded in these different situations
affected him really negatively.
In his new ward, his bishop was really
worried about him socially.
I would say things like, oh, don't do
that. That's weird. That's not normal.
And
the bishop's wife talked to Spencer's mom and
was like, I'm so impressed with how you
hide Spencer's disability.
And they'd make comments like this that made
him feel, like, really othered.
And at that point, he stopped going to
church as a young man
and made some different choices in his life
as he grew into adulthood.
Then as an adult, he started missing
things that he had in church,
and he started to go back as an
adult back to church and started to read
the scriptures and he changed his work schedule
so he could go as he remembered those
good memories before of leaders.
So I just love that story
as a caution, but also thinking about those
youth leaders before of how they were including
him that just felt so natural.
I also think that it can be tough
in transitions. Like if you move that things
we talked about, like communication and councils are
especially important that when someone moves into your
ward, that's when you need to be really
talking to the parents and get a disability
specialist and make things work.
I love that story. Very good. Tell me
about as far as using strength and service
opportunities
for people with autism.
Individuals that are on the spectrum
often have what we call, like, splinter skills,
where they have a huge fascination
or a a fantastic
skill in one area.
And it might be math or science or
English or
it depends.
And sometimes that's what gets them in trouble
is they they appear to be so so
intelligent,
but then in a different area, they're lacking
some basic skills.
And just like I mean, the Lord says
everyone should have a calling. Everyone should have
a friend, and everyone should be nourished by
the good word of of God. And it's
the same thing for these individuals.
If we can find out what those strengths
are, and sometimes
we're gonna have to have revelation and we're
gonna have to have some trial and error,
but they will rise and they will do
some fantastic things. I'll tell you a story
about he's probably 30 now, and he's actually
not a story in the book, but
he just didn't wanna be around people, he
would run away all the time, he had
all kinds of issues,
and he lived with his mom,
but he he was in a ranching community
and a lot of people knew him and
he got called to be the executive secretary.
He just loves computers. He's so so good
at it, and he actually would sit on
the stand,
and he would count the people and do
all of the records, but he didn't have
to talk to people. And when he did
talk to them, he had a very specific
purpose
for the interchange,
and so he felt comfortable with that. He
did that calling for nine years, and he
just got he was just released.
Most people would say, oh, just leave him
alone. He doesn't wanna he doesn't wanna be
part.
But he was pushed, and he accepted that
calling and and did great.
And every individual has some strength. I think
of Olivia.
She loved to crochet,
and she did a class in young women's
where she taught everyone how to crochet, and
she would crochet little things and give it
to the other girls. And that helped her
feel a connection, a belonging,
something that she could give and not just
have to always be always having to get
help and always being the one that needs
the extra friend, like, she's a project. She
started to feel like she really belonged.
Yeah. I'm curious. This is maybe a random
question, but, like, obviously, we're talking about autism.
Is it appropriate to ask somebody? Like, are
you autistic?
Or, like, is is that helpful to know?
Or is it just sort of you perceive
that and act accordingly? Or what thoughts come
to mind? Every person is so different,
but I think being
direct
is always
a basic characteristic,
and it's not not a 100% true, but
individuals on the spectrum are very, very black
and white, and they're very concrete.
Feelings, emotions,
they have a hard time understanding
for the most part. And so if you're
very direct and say, hey. I've noticed this.
Are you on the spectrum?
Usually, they'll say they'll they'll be real honest
with you. You'll read some of the stories
where they're embarrassed and it takes them a
while to accept the fact, but once they
do,
then they do really great with it. There's
other that they're very proud of it. There's
I mean, that that they want that to
be like, we talk about an individual with
autism
or it's an autistic person. There's a whole
group that are like, that's my main thing.
I love that. That's what I want. Others
that are like, no. I'm a person that
has this you know, we talk about disability
specialists. A lot of people don't see it
as a disability, and even that is a
little bit of offensive
to some of those individuals, and we need
to be careful about that. But I think
being direct is what is what I would
be what I would do. As soon as
my time as bishop, I had this clerk
who was different and but he was very,
like,
he's very good with math and, like, focus.
And he was, like, the best clerk I
ever had during my time. I've I've never
been so in order with, you know, all
all things the clerk manages.
And I'm like, well, I guess I don't
know if he was autistic. Right? But he
was definitely kinda different and maybe social
dynamics were a little bit off with him.
But, man, he was so good in that
role. Yeah. I love that. And that's the
thing. A lot of older individuals
weren't diagnosed,
but they they kinda know, and they might
not know they're not gonna talk about that.
But the younger generation, they they know exactly
what's going on. But it like, you know,
going back to you talk about those with
autism are oftentimes direct and maybe their communication,
maybe in a meeting, they came across as
abrasive or, like, man. Like, you just said
I can't believe you just said that. Right?
And so sometimes I have that private conversation
to be like, let me just understand where
you're coming from here. Like because once that's
established, I'm like, oh, yeah. Actually, I am
on the spectrum or whatever it is. And
it's like, okay. Well, now I I can
understand maybe how you say things better, not
because you're trying to be mean or offensive
or overly direct. It's just the way you
communicate, and that's okay. And you hit on
a on an extremely important
issue in the ABA world. We teach routines,
and there's a lot of stories about leaders
that taught the youth how to pass the
sacrament and how powerful that was. But we
call it scripts, and it's it talks about
it in in some of the summaries of
the chapters.
When an individual
is having social faux pas, and especially if
you've had a little talk about it, if
you pull them aside afterward and say, hey.
This is what happened, and this is kind
of how it was perceived, and that's why.
Then they learn that script, and they don't
do it again. And if you say this
is how this is a better way to
do it and maybe even practice it if
they're into that, that situation will never happen
again. But if somebody doesn't give them the
script, they're just gonna repeat it over and
over and over again. I mean, that's not
what we want. We want to teach them,
and the routines and the scripts at church
are unique. That's not something they're gonna learn
in an ABA therapy setting.
It'll be
from a parent, from an individual that cares,
and most often, it's received very, very well.
Yeah.
Liberty?
On this topic of,
like, if you are trying to decide if
someone has autism,
I think
in general, we should be, I don't know,
as leaders, understanding of people who might seem
a little different even if we're not sure
of the exact diagnosis Cause sometimes it can
be really invisible.
One of the stories is about my friend
Zacharias and
he served
a cross sliding mission. And on his mission,
he sometimes had a hard time interacting with
ward members
because of his autism and different social things
he had. But he told a story about
how
a member of his ward council brought a
non member friend to a ward activity.
And Zacharias and his companion didn't know that
the person was a non member, didn't talk
to them at all, missed it. And then
that Sunday in ward council,
the leader brought it up and was grilling
the elders, was not impressed.
And it was so hard for Zacharias because
he didn't have his normal coping skills on
his mission, and he had a hard time
trusting members and trusting himself as a missionary
after that. And so I think even
like with higher functioning
people with autism and adults with autism,
that it might not always be visible their
autism, but we still should be understanding.
Another story with this is they're these
twins that I, that we have a story
about
and they were like pre stage, I think.
And they both had autism
and they went on a scouting trip, which
was kind of a big deal for them.
And they were camping and
made them nervous. These different things was tricky.
And so they really like to stay by
the center of camp, by the food and
the other leaders.
And they wouldn't go off with the other
boys that much. And one of their leaders
had such a hard time with that and
would yell at them and say, get out,
stop eating food, go spend time with the
other boys.
And it freaked the kids out. And afterwards,
the boys talked to their mom about this.
The mom talked to the leader
and she told me that it felt like
the leader thought that she was making up
excuses for a son and like, it wasn't
a real thing. So I think be really
sensitive in these areas as a leader that
we are listening to the parents, that even
if we're not sure what's going on our
understanding.
Yeah. That's really helpful.
And, you know, you talk about, like, that
missionary with just the social skills of
or social interaction with ward members.
I mean, just like all of us, I
mean, I imagine that, you know, I think
all of us experience as missionaries, you get
better socially. Right? You learn how to talk
with people you don't know and interact with
people and ask questions and so forth. And
I I would imagine, you know, they're
with practice, they obviously are learning things as
well. Trying to think exactly what I'm asking,
but just, like, obviously, we encourage them into
that. We can't just say, oh, well, they're
autistic, so they just don't do well with
that. So let's avoid those situations. I mean,
they will get better, but it's also not
that you're going to overcome
autism with practice. Right? That's not how it
works. And I'll just say, I've worked with
thousands of individuals,
hundreds
very intensely.
And with the help, kind of like the
example that I was sharing about social skills,
they can make so much progress.
And I'll just give a couple of examples.
You know, you work with a a young
child that has very serious challenging behavior, and
you just teach them. You give them coping
skills, and you teach them routines and and
how to persist at difficult tasks, and to
stay to stay on task longer and to
interact with others.
And pretty quick, they go from having this
full time aid to being able to be
in the first grade classroom or the second
grade classroom
without any supports. And we see some of
those stories in the book where, you know,
their parent would go or the disability specialist
would go with them. And if they are
learning,
if there's a little bit of knowledge there
that's going with that, they're gonna pick up
on that. They're gonna feel that the routines
and the safe place is going to be
church. They're gonna be like, I love to
go to church because we do this, this,
and this, and I know what I know
kind of what people are gonna ask me
and what the topics are. And
they can be very successful
and gain friends and feel the spirit. We
can't feel the spirit if you don't feel
safe, if you're afraid.
And we can create that environment
with education. Education is a huge piece.
Love it. That's really encouraging to hear. Let's
talk about maybe just, like, the different
like, autism at different ages.
And maybe you just give us a crash
course starting at nursery and let's go up.
I mean, who wants to who wants to
jump into that? Yeah. I think some of
it for younger ages, we've talked more about
the
as young children in nursery and primary, a
lot of times
more of the conversation in the book is
about their parent that
primary and nursery are different than the normal
routines. And so it's hard for a lot
of kids with autism to be in those
settings.
And so a lot of times, it is
hard for the parent that they always have
to be there with them helping them. And
so I think
nursery and primary level, that's when we need
to think about the parent and have disability
specialists have extra resources for them so that
church can be an uplifting time for the
child and the parent.
Awesome. Anything you'd add to that, Robert? I'll
talk about young men, young women. Yeah. Let's
go there. There's a tricky transition,
especially with, individuals that are maybe a little
higher functioning
that they learn all of the routines, they're
able to interact with their peers, they're doing
pretty good, and then they get to be
11, 12, 13.
And all of a sudden,
what kids say isn't really what they mean
anymore. You know, they have a little conversation
about how somebody is really pretty or handsome
or whatever, or how they don't like this
teacher, and the child with autism goes and
tells them.
Oh, yeah. And then they get in big
trouble,
and then there's a lot of fallout
with that. And so when they are transitioning
into those ages, it's really good
to have if the adult can kind of
watch, and when those situations start to happen,
they can intervene. They can or they can
say, hey. Why don't you go talk to
that friend? Look at this activity. Let me
show you how it works, and help them
learn how to enter those conversations, those activities
safely.
It's just very powerful to have a little
bit of supervision,
and a lot of times the church part
works pretty well. By the time they're in
young men's, young women's, they can go to
class, they can pass their sacrament, they can
do those kind of things. And just there's
a story in the book about a young
man that blessed the sacrament,
and he made a mistake,
and he didn't wanna go back to church.
And so the leaders, you know, they were
really careful and and and reached out and
kind of helped, you know, some of those
issues that happen to to show love and
support, and usually
things work out if there's a little bit
of follow through. Yeah. And and it really
is sometimes in those nuanced experiences like blessing
the sacrament where it's like a simple, you
know, understanding of we you know, that individual
reads it once the best they can, and
we call it good, and we don't make
a thing out of it. Right? Or have
them repeat it multiple times and just Right.
And, again, that's something that maybe would come
through discussions of things. But but those little
things can go a long way or making
them feel safe or more making them feel
the routine more clear. It's huge. It's huge.
Yeah. And sometimes, you know, on Leasing Saints,
we you know, we're all about, you know,
dynamic and different leadership and trying new things.
And
and I can see that, you know, that's
something to be aware of. It's good to
try new things, but if you're shuffling the
deck every every week with, like, now we're
doing this and that, and
that can be very unsettling, I would imagine,
for those on the spectrum. It would be.
And
and if you're gonna do those kind of
things, just
some talking beforehand and some practice and a
little bit of conversation and a debriefing after
goes miles.
Yeah. Anything else with youth, or should we
move on to young single adults?
With youth, I think, like my dad said,
the social aspect is really important and leaders
can do a lot because
for people who don't have autism at that
age,
it's also a weird time to figure out
how things work, but the leaders can help
supervise to make sure that you with autism
aren't hurt. A few different experiences in the
book, kids at that age felt bullied at
church and didn't wanna go anymore because
maybe kids are just teasing me, but they're
actually bullying. I'm not sure, but they felt
that they were being attacked because it was
different in that way. And so
supervision, making sure that friendships work. I also
think being patient and flexible
with their different interests.
Like these
12 and 13 year olds that I talked
with, they still
wanted to play with Legos and talk about
dinosaurs and things that their peers didn't love
to talk about. But leaders can step in
there or disability specialists and connect with them
over what they care about even if it's
not what most of their class cares about.
Yeah. That's really good. Technology
is just fantastically huge with most individuals on
the spectrum. They love the routine. They love
the video games. It's their comfort. It's their
coping skill,
and they might be playing roadblocks or whatever
it is right during class and have their
big headphones on and not seeming to care
or listen. Well, I worked with one young
man that literally turned his back to the
class and would sit there. And that's where
having a lot of communication with the parent
because maybe that's a win that they're there,
and maybe it's not. And maybe we need
to have different expectations.
But technology,
I've also been amazed,
especially 10, 11, 12, 13.
Child comes in with autism. He's playing a
cool game, and all of a sudden, four
of the other boys are sitting behind them
watching them,
and the teacher loses. And so there's gotta
be some conversation
about how that works.
It can be a powerful friend, but a
lot of times, you know, if a parent,
that's their that's all that's the only way
they can get their child there, and that's
the only way that they can be successful.
And so that's okay. And the disability specialist
learns all about roadblocks and talks to them
about it and and moves forward.
And there's a lot of other issues outside
of church that become very, very important
with all youth, but I think just understanding
that role in this whole thing is is
important.
Yeah.
Anything, with
YSAs and above? I mean, I guess YSAs
are as adult as, maybe a 40 year
old, but just just figuring out, I don't
know. Is there a different, you know, delineation
there? I think a big thing is what
we talked about before is utilizing their skills
and helping them get involved.
A lot of the hard things that came
with being a member of the church with
autism of the individuals I talked with is
the social aspect that they didn't know how
to connect with people. They'd go to church,
but they would feel kind of isolated or
not exactly sure how they should be. But
there's one mom I talked with, and she
got in charge of having playgroups
with other moms with kids in her church.
And because she did that, she got to
know them when she never would have otherwise.
And a lot also, they're brilliant, great gospel
teachers, and they could teach Sunday school and
be a big part of things if we
give them the opportunity.
Awesome. I'm gonna add Yeah. The number one
question or the number one concern usually is
missions,
how that works. And there's some stories about
individuals that went on missions,
some that went for a little while on
a mission, some that served service missions.
Service missions has been a game changer for
this group. I mean, there's some special missions
like in the family history department and different
places where they just shine and they do
well.
And there's actually a chapter where the mission
president
gives some of his feelings about missionaries
that were on the spectrum that served.
And
a mission is so hard
because you leave
so many supports, and you're just kinda flying
on your own. And so if an individual
is in a place where they can serve
a mission or even a service mission, there's
so much that can be done to prepare
them in advance
for that. And then when they get there,
to have some simple supports in place that
just could make a huge difference in them
being successful.
That's great. I'm glad you brought that up
because that is a, you know, pivotal part
in our Latter day Saint experience is is
the mission experience. So really good. Anything else
as far as adults or anything like that?
We do have some chapters
of moms,
of older individuals that have been married and
then divorced,
and some of their trials.
On the positive side, usually these individuals,
they accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ. They
had the spirit of God with them. They
felt Christ changing them and helping them be
successful.
They talk about
feeling like they always God was always there
for them even if nobody else was.
On the darker side, if you're on the
spectrum, it's much harder to
maintain a long term relationship, and there is
a lot of divorce.
There's also you'll you'll hear the word suicide,
and and a lot of the individual went
through times when they felt like
I don't belong. Why am I here? And
it was usually,
either the the the gospel
or their children or, somebody that they loved
that they couldn't leave them.
And as and as a leader, you know,
as a former bishop, when those things happen,
we have to be prepared for that and
give them the support professionally
that is required.
Really good.
And one question that came through is, I
work with missionaries and some have autism. However,
it is not necessarily diagnosed prior to coming
in in the field. And what would be
the best way to handle this? Any thoughts
from your mind? I think some of that
depends on
how able to do the work the person
is. I think in some situations, if someone
is really struggling on a mission, they should
go home. But I also think that in
a lot of cases
that these individuals have a lot to offer.
My dad talked a little bit about the
mission president who talked about his feelings.
He I loved some of the things he
said. He talked about how as a new
mission president, he really struggled
because so many of the missionaries were coming
and they weren't prepared and they couldn't do
the social aspects or the teaching for a
lot of different reasons.
And included in that was individuals with autism.
And he was like, why are they here?
What should we do?
But then they had a zone conference where
missionaries bore their testimonies. And this missionary got
up and he bore his testimony and he
was really
honest and self aware. And he said that
he
couldn't have been there if it wasn't for
Jesus Christ.
And it hit that mission president
that that was true. It's true for all
of us, but it's really visible
with some of these individuals with autism
that he was giving all he could. And
just the fact that he was there was
such a missionary tool, such a testament of
Jesus Christ power, even if he couldn't I
mean, you talk about it eloquently or working
with members was hard or whatever his challenge
is
that his presence there was a testament of
Jesus Christ.
Love that. Alright. Any other if there's any
questions
you can put in the question box or
if you wanna raise your hand and unmute,
we'd love to hear from you. Britta, go
ahead. I actually
I'm kind of a discussion person, so I
just
had the need to jump in and confirm
a whole lot of what was being said.
I've been in inclusion,
therapist, and I've done
community inclusion for
about thirty years, but 21 really intensely
working with children in day camps and
swimming lessons and training young
camp counselors.
And then, obviously, I'm in a ward. And
it was all, like, one of my thoughts
was you said, what if you have one
in your ward? You're gonna have way more
than one. Even if you don't know you
have it. You have dozens of them being
neuro
atypical is probably more like a fifty fifty
split. If you want my perspective on it,
we've got all kinds of interesting people in
God's kingdom
and in the world.
Anyways, I love everything I heard. It rings
true to my experience.
One other thought that came to my mind
is that I would just sort of throw
out there is the ones that we think
are nonverbal
and society has decided they have a low
IQ.
I would say that my experience has taught
me that we should not make that assumption
ever
because they may actually be the wisest of
all.
And they're in a body that doesn't cooperate,
but their spiritual strength may be literally beyond
our comprehension.
And we might just need to view them
very
differently than they typically are viewed.
And, anyways, Liberty and Robert, I was just
absolutely
impressed.
I'll probably take a look at your book,
but I think this is the Lord's kingdom,
and this needs to be the safest place
for all of Galt's children,
period. And if nothing else happens other than
they know they're loved, then we've succeeded.
Great reminder. Thanks, Brita.
And any any other liberty or Robert, any
other point principle concept story? I just wanna
piggyback on what she said.
I have worked with with a lot of
different families
for years and years and years, and they
float around and I keep track of them.
And I I think that's a principle
in the church, especially when they get in
the young young adults, keeping track of them
and following them around.
And I've had very sacred,
powerful
experiences
with some of these individuals.
I'll just share one. I was working with
this young family, single mom.
He had broke his hips when he was
in kindergarten and had a cast on, had
all kinds of challenging behaviors because of it,
and he would click. And I just thought,
he can there's something here.
And I worked with him, and I I
remember one day I was we were working
and he I'd have him jump and I
pull him up. He's probably 10, about a
hundred and twenty pounds, a big, big kid.
And I'd say, just say jump and say
jump. And he did that, and he wouldn't
say it. And then about the twelfth time,
he said jump.
And for the next three hours,
I pushed him up, and I got him
to say jump about 40 times.
And I remember driving home, and I couldn't
I couldn't hardly keep my hand. My arms
hurt so bad on the steering wheel. And
now he he speaks pretty well.
And I know that in the next life,
I'm gonna see him, and we're gonna look
each other in the eye, and our spirits
will know each other, and he will be
glorious and amazing. He'll be wonderful.
And I hope that
my part in that is acceptable to the
lord
and to him. Yeah. Absolutely. That's sweet. Can
I add on to that? Yeah.
Just as I was talking with these people,
it was such a sacred experience for me.
And I felt so much that God loves
these individuals
and he loves their families
so much
that they
have so much to offer.
I was also so impressed as I was
talking to them that so many of them
were really excited to get their stories told.
That this is an important issue. There's things
here they want to have their stories told,
and so I'm glad I could be part
of that. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, I I'm
imagining the books are available on Amazon. Any
other place you would send them if they
wanna know more about the book or about
any other resources you offer?
Yeah. It's on Amazon and Barnes and Noble.
Alright. Well, we'll look for it for sure.
Marty's got a question. Thank you very much
for this. It's a wonderful, wonderful thing to
discuss.
Much of what is said
is applicable
to other people who aren't on the autism
spectrum but have mental health challenges.
And as we look, you know, I look
in my own congregations,
I see that there are so many people
with challenges
that we need to look out and
watch for them and realize that everyone
needs
someone
to care for them and watch over them.
And that's why the ministering program, I think,
is so very important in the church.
If we rise up and do that work,
it can really change lives.
Thanks, Marty.
Alright. What maybe Robert, just let's, round this
off with what final encouragement would you give
to a group of church leaders who
just really wanna, you know, make church and
just their Latter day Saint life a a
positive experience for those who are autistic?
God is in the details. This is his
church. This is his work. He wants you
to be successful.
And as you are humble, as you turn
to the Lord, as you listen carefully
to those parents, to those individuals,
as you just show some genuine interest,
use others in the ward. The Lord will,
I think, prompt you. And as you use
the hierarchy,
as you go to those individuals that are
closest to those in individuals on the spectrum,
that wonderful things will happen.
The Lord wants everyone to feel safe, to
have peace, to learn his gospel,
to accept Jesus Christ, to be able to
renew,
their covenants and partake of the sacrament,
And that is everyone.
Sometimes
the individuals that come, we are on trial
to see how well we're going to serve
them, as we just heard from Marty. And
sometimes
those individuals
have unique talents and gifts
that are going to save us. They're going
to
be put in places. And I I've seen
this over and over again over my time,
working with these individuals,
how you think I give and give and
give, and then they give things happen. The
Lord sets it up and you're just like,
wow.
Wow.
There's things there that that just
affect me in powerful ways.
The end. That's it for this leading saints
episode. I encourage you to check out some
of the most popular episodes of the podcast
that we list at the bottom of the
show notes. If you haven't listened to all
of those, do so now.
It came as a result of the position
of leadership which was imposed upon us
by the God of heaven who brought
forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus
Christ.
When the declaration
was made concerning the only
true and living Church upon the face of
the earth,
we were immediately put in a position
of loneliness,
the loneliness of leadership
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,
and to which we must face up with
boldness and courage
and ability.