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Hey. If you think Leading Saints is just

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In most families, you'll find somebody or two

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or three who have stepped away from the

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church, and that can create a lot of

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tension in our relationships. And, really it creates

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a lot of worry on the side of

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maybe those that still believe and who are

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still religious and faithful and go to church

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and do all the things. And they worry

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that that individual is on a path that

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isn't gonna lead to any measure of happiness.

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Now we know that the fullness of joy

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comes from the restored gospel of Jesus Christ

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and relying on our savior and ordinances and

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all those things. However, there's maybe a reason

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not to worry too much that this person

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is doomed to a life of just depression

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and unhappiness

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when in reality God's more involved than we

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may realize. So today I sit down with

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my good friends, Matt Miles, who is actually

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a professor of political science up at, Brigham

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Young University, Idaho. And Matt's a great friend.

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We talk about a lot of things. We

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disagree a lot about a lot of things,

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but nonetheless, our discussions are always very fulfilling

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for me. So Matt's done some phenomenal research,

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really interesting to explore this concept of religious

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identity, because

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typically we do that in the context of

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denominations

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or Christianity

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or the types of religion, right, when the

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question is, what makes somebody religious? Is it

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simply their membership in a certain denomination or

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religion, or is it more about their behaviors

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and how they are finding connection to spirituality?

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And this is really important to consider

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from, maybe in more orthodox traditional Latter day

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Saint view, because as we have loved ones

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who step away from the church, it's important

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for us to recognize the way that God

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is still stepping into their life, still interfering

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in the best ways possible

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to develop them as a person, to move

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them further down the sanctifying path. So that

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at some point in the eternities,

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as they get an opportunity after opportunity to

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return to the covenant path, they'll still be

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a different person

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than they were when maybe they stepped off

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of it. So fascinating discussion. There's going to

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be a lot here for you to agree

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with and disagree with. So, we'd love to

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hear from you in the comments and share

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your perspective. Here's my interview with Matt Miles.

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Alright. Matt Miles,

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in studio with me all the way from

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BYU, Idaho. Yeah. It was a long drive.

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How how's Rexburg these days? Right now is,

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like, the two weeks when Rexburg is nice.

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Okay. Yeah. And you're in Utah.

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We thought, why not go to Utah? It

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is weird. We get like this seven week

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break and it's the perfect weather and everybody

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leaves town. Right. Which is kinda sad, right,

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for those people. But for us, it's like

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the town is empty. There's nobody there. Weather's

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perfect. Like, right now is the time to

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go to Rexburg. Yeah. EF y FSY is

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going on. Oh, yeah. So young kids everywhere,

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teenagers everywhere. Yeah. So, like, if I'm in

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my office, suddenly, I hear, like, chants, right,

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outside or something like that. Nice. Yeah. So

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how long have you been at BYU Idaho?

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I started there in 2013, so twelve years.

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Nice. And was that always the dream to

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be the professor? Or No. No. When,

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Sandra and I first got married,

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I was working in banking in Utah,

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and then we adopted our first son from

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Ukraine.

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And then our daughter was born about

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two months later.

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Wait, a whole Yeah, two months later. Okay.

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I'm right about that. And then So once

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I suddenly had kids,

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working forty hours a week suddenly seemed awful

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to me. So I was like, I've gotta

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change my life.

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So we moved to Kansas to do this

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job where we would do foster care for

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adults with disabilities.

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Wow. So we did that for ten years.

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We had two adult women living with us

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and we would take care of all their

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needs because they couldn't speak, they couldn't do

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anything. And then we had our kids living

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with us. And so while I was there,

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I was like, you know what? I had

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to do a PhD in something. And so

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I did And as well. So I did

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a PhD. So once I finished the PhD,

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then it was like, if you don't do

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something with your PhD right away, you're kind

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of out of luck. So it was like,

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Okay, now I gotta do something. So that's

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when I went to BYU White House. It

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wasn't the long term plan ever originally, but

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it was sort of like, Well, we started

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down this path. Might as well keep going.

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Political

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science is your main focus there. Yeah. Yeah.

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So political science So this is actually kind

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of funny because I did my bachelor's in

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psychology

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at BYU,

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and I hated that people would take psychology

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research and use it for what I thought

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was bad stuff.

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And so when I was thinking about doing

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a PhD, I was like, What's a subject

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that nobody cares about so that no one

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would ever use my research in a bad

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way?

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Political scientists, nobody is ever like, Hey, what

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does the political scientist think about this? And

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so for me, it was like, That's the

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one. Nobody cares what we do. That's the

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field I wanna do. Isn't that weird? And

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nobody's used it for evil purposes? My research

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So it's kinda gotten lately, right, where you

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could. There are former students I have that

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use some of the things that we talk

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about in class in ways that I wish

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they wouldn't.

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But at the same time, I'm just happy

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that they have a job and I'm happy

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that they're Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to use

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political science stuff in a bad way, I

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think. Unless you're a politician or what? No.

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Like, because people expect them to be like

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that, right?

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It's like if you could do a PhD

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in used car sales Uh-huh. And then somebody

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used it, you'd be like, well, of course.

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That's what a used car salesperson does. Right?

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So it's sort of like they kind of

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expect that. So as you're talking about I

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assume you're talking about political related subjects in

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your classes. Right? Yeah. What's the pulse on

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just the your students that you're getting? Has

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has it changed in the in the time

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you've been there? You've seen any shifts? Yeah.

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It's so this is what's interesting about

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well, because it's at BYU Idaho, so they're

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members of our church. Right? So it's really

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interesting because when they leave home,

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church and politics and all of that stuff

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is all tied together into one big package.

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Mhmm. And when we start talking about politics

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or political science subjects, I have to be

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really careful of, like, how I peel away

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at things because otherwise, their faith will, like,

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fall apart with it. And so it's really

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interesting as you sort of start peeling some

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things away.

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Some kids will just go way to the

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extreme. So, like, as an example, there was

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this student that was, like, die hard Trump

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supporter, like, hardcore.

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And then two years later, Bernie Sanders, socialist,

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like, hardcore on the left, Marxist.

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And then he went all the way back

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to the, like, Trump's too far left for

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him, and he's, like, further right than Trump.

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So you see a lot of movement with,

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like, the college kids and their political views.

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Mhmm. But in terms of an experience, it's

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great because we just talk about like, they're

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really interested in politics, but they don't know

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the science side of politics. And so as

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long as we focus on the political science

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aspects,

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it's kinda fun to watch them sort of

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learn more about

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the science side as they're sort of engaged

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in the politics that they already care about.

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Yeah. And along that same line, where did

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the research come as far as this book

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and with metrics of faith and where that

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idea come from? Yeah. So I was approached

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my first year at BYU Idaho. A book

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publisher said, hey. I would like to start

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doing books on religion and politics.

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Could you write a book? And BYU Idaho

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doesn't have any funding for research, and so

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I was just sort of, like, thinking, like,

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what do I already have done that I

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could kinda put together into a book? And

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it worked. And so I wrote this book.

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It's called, religious social identity. But as I

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was working on that project, I had these

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other ideas of, like

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I just didn't think we were measuring religion

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the right way. And there's a lot of,

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like, findings in that literature

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about religion and politics that I thought weren't

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right. And so then I was started thinking

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these ideas like, okay. If I had the

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money, if I could do it the right

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way, how would I do it? And so

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that's what I started putting together for this

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book. The publisher calls it Metrics of Faith.

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Mhmm. And they're the publisher, so I don't

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care if they choose the title. But I

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would have called it the fourth b. It's

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about religious becoming.

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And yeah. Should I explain why I would

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call it? Well, then I'm curious with,

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like, how do we typically

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measure faith? I mean, or Yeah. So that's

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why I would call it the fourth b.

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So so in if you get into the

263
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religious studies fight, there are kind of two

264
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groups. There's two schools of thought. One school

265
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of thought says everything in religion can just

266
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kind of be lumped into this one group.

267
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And then there's this other group that says,

268
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like, all of the little details of religion

269
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are super important, and we should study those.

270
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In political science and sociology, they sort of

271
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settled on this idea of religiosity,

272
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which is we can measure religion

273
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by the things a person does. So if

274
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you go to church, if you read the

275
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Bible, if you study your scriptures, if you

276
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pray, we call that behavior.

277
00:10:14,740 --> 00:10:17,000
Mhmm. And that's one way we measure religion.

278
00:10:17,300 --> 00:10:19,220
If you believe in God, if you believe

279
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the Bible to be the word of God,

280
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we can call that belief. And then if

281
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you

282
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feel real close to the people in your

283
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religious community,

284
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Like, I have all of my friends go

285
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to the same church as me. My family's

286
00:10:31,665 --> 00:10:32,865
been a part of this church for a

287
00:10:32,865 --> 00:10:34,325
long time. We call that belonging.

288
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And so those are the three Bs, and

289
00:10:37,024 --> 00:10:38,785
they also just kinda get lumped together in

290
00:10:38,785 --> 00:10:42,370
religiosity. So usually, religion is measured by those

291
00:10:42,370 --> 00:10:43,730
three things. Do you go to church? Do

292
00:10:43,730 --> 00:10:45,250
you believe in God? How many friends do

293
00:10:45,250 --> 00:10:46,610
you have that go to the church to

294
00:10:46,689 --> 00:10:48,370
You didn't come over those. That's, like, generally

295
00:10:48,370 --> 00:10:50,289
in the research. That's where they go. Yeah.

296
00:10:50,289 --> 00:10:52,529
Like, last thirty years. That's how if you

297
00:10:52,529 --> 00:10:53,509
talk about religion,

298
00:10:53,809 --> 00:10:55,809
that's usually what people are talking about. There's

299
00:10:55,809 --> 00:10:57,674
those I call them the inputs. Right? What

300
00:10:57,674 --> 00:11:00,715
you're doing for religion. Gotcha. But you are

301
00:11:00,715 --> 00:11:02,315
arguing there's a fourth one or Yeah. So

302
00:11:02,315 --> 00:11:03,914
that's why I call it the fourth B.

303
00:11:03,914 --> 00:11:05,995
I actually say you shouldn't measure religion by

304
00:11:05,995 --> 00:11:08,154
what a person does. You should measure a

305
00:11:08,154 --> 00:11:10,315
person by what a person becomes. I mean,

306
00:11:10,315 --> 00:11:12,389
this is I think Elder Oaks had this

307
00:11:12,389 --> 00:11:15,029
idea of becoming, right? But we should measure

308
00:11:15,029 --> 00:11:17,429
religion not by Because we all know people

309
00:11:17,429 --> 00:11:18,790
who go to church and who have friends

310
00:11:18,790 --> 00:11:20,230
that go to church and who say they

311
00:11:20,230 --> 00:11:22,629
believe in God, but they haven't actually had

312
00:11:22,629 --> 00:11:25,750
this transformative effect. Like religion hasn't done anything

313
00:11:25,750 --> 00:11:27,514
to them. And so I looked

314
00:11:28,134 --> 00:11:30,694
through every religion out there. I said, okay,

315
00:11:30,694 --> 00:11:32,054
what are the things that they have in

316
00:11:32,054 --> 00:11:34,615
common? And there are some psychologists that have

317
00:11:34,615 --> 00:11:35,355
also identified

318
00:11:35,735 --> 00:11:38,315
these traits. And so there's these four things

319
00:11:38,899 --> 00:11:40,040
that every religion

320
00:11:40,420 --> 00:11:42,340
teaches people that they ought to try to

321
00:11:42,340 --> 00:11:44,420
become. And so I say we should measure

322
00:11:44,420 --> 00:11:46,580
religion then by the extent to which a

323
00:11:46,580 --> 00:11:47,720
person has become

324
00:11:48,100 --> 00:11:49,940
what religion wants them to be. Yeah. And

325
00:11:49,940 --> 00:11:51,700
this is interesting because as I think back,

326
00:11:51,700 --> 00:11:53,894
you know, the temple recommend questions get a

327
00:11:53,894 --> 00:11:55,415
lot of lot of scrutiny, you know, because

328
00:11:55,415 --> 00:11:57,754
it's like they're very behavior focused.

329
00:11:58,215 --> 00:12:00,375
And as a church, I don't know the

330
00:12:00,375 --> 00:12:02,855
best way to measure if somebody has had

331
00:12:02,855 --> 00:12:05,415
a transformational experience to go into the temple

332
00:12:05,415 --> 00:12:07,915
and participate in the ordinances there other than,

333
00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,820
well, let's gather some general behavioral focused

334
00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,079
questions or or belief focused questions. We'll ask

335
00:12:14,079 --> 00:12:16,879
them. But, again, that doesn't mean everybody who

336
00:12:16,879 --> 00:12:18,980
goes in the temple is this, like, satanly

337
00:12:19,039 --> 00:12:22,245
person person. Right? But Yeah. So I'm curious

338
00:12:22,485 --> 00:12:24,164
We have the same challenge at BYU Idaho

339
00:12:24,164 --> 00:12:26,404
because our mission is to develop disciples of

340
00:12:26,404 --> 00:12:28,245
Jesus Christ. And it's like, well, how do

341
00:12:28,245 --> 00:12:29,684
I measure if a person is a disciple

342
00:12:29,684 --> 00:12:31,365
of Jesus Christ? Yeah. So is there a

343
00:12:31,365 --> 00:12:32,264
way to better

344
00:12:32,644 --> 00:12:33,144
measure,

345
00:12:33,524 --> 00:12:35,289
you know, the religiosity?

346
00:12:35,669 --> 00:12:37,990
Was that word? Religion. Religion. Thank you. Yeah.

347
00:12:37,990 --> 00:12:38,889
Or transformation

348
00:12:39,750 --> 00:12:41,829
Yeah. Other than, well, looks like you go

349
00:12:41,829 --> 00:12:44,389
to church, therefore, you must be transformed in

350
00:12:44,389 --> 00:12:46,470
some way. Yeah. So to some extent, if

351
00:12:46,470 --> 00:12:48,149
you're gonna ask people a question in a

352
00:12:48,149 --> 00:12:50,575
survey, if they know what you're looking for,

353
00:12:51,034 --> 00:12:53,274
then they're gonna give you answers that are

354
00:12:53,274 --> 00:12:55,774
not necessarily authentic. Right? So to some extent,

355
00:12:55,914 --> 00:12:57,754
you have to ask questions in a way

356
00:12:57,754 --> 00:13:00,154
that they don't really know you're measuring religion

357
00:13:00,154 --> 00:13:02,235
when you're asking them those questions. Mhmm. So

358
00:13:02,235 --> 00:13:04,495
what I did there's this person out there,

359
00:13:04,750 --> 00:13:06,830
bless his heart. He has a list of

360
00:13:06,830 --> 00:13:07,649
4,000

361
00:13:07,790 --> 00:13:08,690
survey questions

362
00:13:08,990 --> 00:13:10,830
that have ever been asked in any survey

363
00:13:10,830 --> 00:13:11,970
ever in psychology,

364
00:13:12,750 --> 00:13:14,750
and they measure various things. So I went

365
00:13:14,750 --> 00:13:16,910
through in statistics, you can look at like

366
00:13:16,910 --> 00:13:18,894
factor loadings to see like how good a

367
00:13:18,894 --> 00:13:20,975
question is or how how well it fits

368
00:13:20,975 --> 00:13:22,495
with other questions. So I went through his

369
00:13:22,495 --> 00:13:22,995
database

370
00:13:23,455 --> 00:13:25,934
of 4,000 questions, and I was like, okay.

371
00:13:25,934 --> 00:13:28,095
What are some questions that kinda weird hobbies,

372
00:13:28,095 --> 00:13:29,235
man. I'm just saying.

373
00:13:30,014 --> 00:13:32,254
I know. I'm like, what are some questions

374
00:13:32,254 --> 00:13:34,350
that kinda fit these ideas I have in

375
00:13:34,350 --> 00:13:35,009
my head?

376
00:13:35,389 --> 00:13:37,809
And from that list of 4,000, I found

377
00:13:38,750 --> 00:13:41,389
about nine of yeah. About nine. And then

378
00:13:41,389 --> 00:13:42,129
I created

379
00:13:43,070 --> 00:13:44,985
three of my own. Well, it's now at

380
00:13:45,144 --> 00:13:47,304
16 questions. So I'd say about three fourths

381
00:13:47,304 --> 00:13:49,225
of them come from this list of 4,000

382
00:13:49,225 --> 00:13:50,745
questions. And then there were some others that

383
00:13:50,745 --> 00:13:52,345
I was like, yeah. I need a different

384
00:13:52,345 --> 00:13:53,865
question. So then there's about three or four

385
00:13:53,865 --> 00:13:55,784
that I created on my own. And the

386
00:13:55,784 --> 00:13:57,544
the intent of trying to see if somebody's

387
00:13:57,544 --> 00:13:58,365
been transformed

388
00:13:58,950 --> 00:14:00,950
in a religious way. Yeah. So, for example,

389
00:14:00,950 --> 00:14:02,870
if like, instead of asking somebody, do you

390
00:14:02,870 --> 00:14:04,950
believe in god, you'd ask one of the

391
00:14:04,950 --> 00:14:07,350
questions is, like, I have a relationship with

392
00:14:07,350 --> 00:14:09,990
the divine. Right? Or if I'm trying to

393
00:14:09,990 --> 00:14:11,990
measure one of the concepts is,

394
00:14:13,034 --> 00:14:15,375
temperance. Right? This idea of humility,

395
00:14:15,834 --> 00:14:18,154
this idea that you're, like, you don't wanna

396
00:14:18,154 --> 00:14:20,554
take credit for everything. Right? But, like, temperance

397
00:14:20,554 --> 00:14:22,735
is multidimensional. But, like, one of my questions

398
00:14:22,875 --> 00:14:25,195
is, I deserve credit for this the good

399
00:14:25,195 --> 00:14:26,714
things that I do. Mhmm. Right? So when

400
00:14:26,714 --> 00:14:28,254
a person's answering these questions,

401
00:14:28,559 --> 00:14:30,720
they're not necessarily thinking of religion. They're just

402
00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:32,639
saying, I say, how true is this about

403
00:14:32,639 --> 00:14:35,120
you? And there's these these 16 questions, and

404
00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:36,480
then they just say how true it is

405
00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:38,000
about them. Mhmm. And then you can sort

406
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,320
of measure the extent to which these four

407
00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:42,980
aspects of becoming a person has developed.

408
00:14:43,365 --> 00:14:45,684
Interesting. And then depending on how they answer

409
00:14:45,684 --> 00:14:48,085
them, you there's a score that Yeah. I

410
00:14:48,085 --> 00:14:49,764
can for every person, I could just put

411
00:14:49,764 --> 00:14:51,284
them all together, and I can say your

412
00:14:51,284 --> 00:14:54,085
score is point 56. Your score is 0.98.

413
00:14:54,085 --> 00:14:55,845
Uh-huh. And this may be so someone who

414
00:14:55,845 --> 00:14:57,764
maybe is a proclaimed atheist doesn't go to

415
00:14:57,764 --> 00:14:59,779
church but loves to be out hiking and

416
00:14:59,779 --> 00:15:02,019
feels a a connection to a higher power

417
00:15:02,019 --> 00:15:03,399
as they go hiking.

418
00:15:03,860 --> 00:15:05,540
They may take this and come out as

419
00:15:05,540 --> 00:15:08,259
very religious or Yeah. Religious. No. I would

420
00:15:08,259 --> 00:15:10,259
call them religious. Alright. Yeah. Yeah. If you

421
00:15:10,500 --> 00:15:12,785
like Penn and Teller, Penn Jillette Uh-huh. He

422
00:15:12,785 --> 00:15:14,785
talks about how he's an atheist, but the

423
00:15:14,785 --> 00:15:16,625
way he talks about his atheism really is

424
00:15:16,625 --> 00:15:19,424
very religious in my perspective. Right? He cares

425
00:15:19,424 --> 00:15:20,865
a lot about other people and he cares

426
00:15:20,865 --> 00:15:22,625
a lot about doing the right things. And

427
00:15:22,785 --> 00:15:24,544
but his motivation for that is not because

428
00:15:24,544 --> 00:15:26,159
he believes in God, but but it's because

429
00:15:26,159 --> 00:15:28,120
he has these other beliefs that are motivated

430
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,440
by his atheism. So so the interesting thing

431
00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:31,959
about this scale is, like, if you just

432
00:15:31,959 --> 00:15:32,779
look at religiosity,

433
00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:35,019
atheists and agnostics

434
00:15:35,399 --> 00:15:36,940
are very, very not religious.

435
00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:38,379
But on my scale,

436
00:15:38,725 --> 00:15:40,485
so the scale goes from zero to one.

437
00:15:40,485 --> 00:15:42,345
Right? One means you're 100%.

438
00:15:42,644 --> 00:15:45,044
Zero means nothing at all. And the average

439
00:15:45,044 --> 00:15:47,044
atheist is like 0.44

440
00:15:47,044 --> 00:15:48,024
on this scale.

441
00:15:48,485 --> 00:15:49,924
A member of our church, I think the

442
00:15:49,924 --> 00:15:52,404
average is like 0.7 or something like that.

443
00:15:52,404 --> 00:15:55,180
Right? So it's like atheists score pretty high

444
00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,080
on this measure of religion. They score as

445
00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:58,540
high as like a Jewish person,

446
00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,580
as high as, like a Greek Orthodox person.

447
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:03,720
They're kind of in that range. Right? So

448
00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:04,920
what I would say is like a Greek

449
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,800
Orthodox person might probably score way higher on

450
00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,335
transcendence, which is like this connection to the

451
00:16:10,335 --> 00:16:12,815
divine or belief in God sort of thing.

452
00:16:12,815 --> 00:16:14,495
But they might score lower on these other

453
00:16:14,495 --> 00:16:16,975
aspects, whereas an atheist is probably scoring really

454
00:16:16,975 --> 00:16:18,434
high in these, like, humanity

455
00:16:18,894 --> 00:16:21,134
temperance ideas, but it's just lower in that

456
00:16:21,134 --> 00:16:23,590
transcendence aspect of it. And I guess where

457
00:16:23,590 --> 00:16:25,509
my bias wants me to to go is

458
00:16:25,509 --> 00:16:28,149
I'm thinking, well, of course, if they're like,

459
00:16:28,149 --> 00:16:30,629
how much does the culture influence being being

460
00:16:30,629 --> 00:16:34,070
a Judeo Christian culture where we promote these

461
00:16:34,070 --> 00:16:35,990
values of, you know, love your neighbor and

462
00:16:35,990 --> 00:16:38,485
so forth that, like, is it fair to

463
00:16:38,485 --> 00:16:41,445
say that individuals, even atheists in certain cultures,

464
00:16:41,445 --> 00:16:44,085
maybe Judeo Christian cultures are more likely to

465
00:16:44,085 --> 00:16:44,585
be

466
00:16:44,965 --> 00:16:46,644
higher on the scale? Yeah. That's a good

467
00:16:46,644 --> 00:16:48,325
question. And I think that that question gets

468
00:16:48,325 --> 00:16:50,200
to the biggest question, which is, well, then

469
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:51,339
how do you know it's religion?

470
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:53,559
Because if people that we would consider non

471
00:16:53,559 --> 00:16:55,720
religious are still scoring pretty high in it,

472
00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:56,940
how do you know it's religion?

473
00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:59,080
And you can go through these other measures

474
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,559
of religion, like how important is religion in

475
00:17:01,559 --> 00:17:02,144
my life

476
00:17:02,545 --> 00:17:04,464
and other various measures of religion. There's just

477
00:17:04,464 --> 00:17:05,525
a really high correlation

478
00:17:06,065 --> 00:17:07,445
between this and religion.

479
00:17:07,825 --> 00:17:09,744
I think that the the other question is

480
00:17:09,744 --> 00:17:11,585
really interesting. I would love to do kinda

481
00:17:11,585 --> 00:17:14,305
cross national work to see, like, how are

482
00:17:14,305 --> 00:17:15,765
atheists scoring differently.

483
00:17:16,250 --> 00:17:18,570
Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. That's interesting interesting

484
00:17:18,570 --> 00:17:20,730
question. So I'm curious, like, what's the I'm

485
00:17:20,730 --> 00:17:22,170
just thinking about the church leaders who are

486
00:17:22,170 --> 00:17:23,369
like, you know, I I go through the

487
00:17:23,369 --> 00:17:25,769
temple recommend questions and, you know, they they

488
00:17:25,769 --> 00:17:27,850
say all the the right answers and they

489
00:17:27,850 --> 00:17:29,794
give them the recommend, but I don't, you

490
00:17:29,794 --> 00:17:31,714
know, we have such a tradition of sort

491
00:17:31,714 --> 00:17:34,194
of pounding, like, the testimony and get your

492
00:17:34,194 --> 00:17:36,595
own testimony as if the and, essentially, what

493
00:17:36,595 --> 00:17:38,694
we're saying is you need to be transformed

494
00:17:38,835 --> 00:17:40,914
by the gospel. Don't just know the gospel,

495
00:17:40,914 --> 00:17:42,779
be transformed by it. And so is there

496
00:17:42,779 --> 00:17:45,019
a better way for maybe church leaders or

497
00:17:45,019 --> 00:17:47,660
parents to better understand if the message is

498
00:17:47,660 --> 00:17:48,160
actually

499
00:17:48,700 --> 00:17:50,559
transforming those that we lead?

500
00:17:50,860 --> 00:17:53,740
Yeah. So the that's the the ultimate challenge

501
00:17:53,740 --> 00:17:56,140
of the temple recommend questions is you're trying

502
00:17:56,140 --> 00:17:58,240
to take the entire gospel of Jesus Christ

503
00:17:58,355 --> 00:18:00,595
and narrow it down to 13 questions. Mhmm.

504
00:18:00,595 --> 00:18:02,434
And then our assumption is if you're saying

505
00:18:02,434 --> 00:18:03,894
yes to these 13 questions,

506
00:18:04,275 --> 00:18:06,375
you're on the path to the celestial kingdom.

507
00:18:06,595 --> 00:18:08,674
But I think that like the gospel of

508
00:18:08,674 --> 00:18:11,234
Jesus Christ encourages us to become something more

509
00:18:11,234 --> 00:18:14,039
than that. Like it doesn't matter if you

510
00:18:14,039 --> 00:18:15,720
live the word of wisdom perfectly, if you

511
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:17,559
go to church, if you right? If you

512
00:18:17,559 --> 00:18:18,920
live the law of chastity. It doesn't matter

513
00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:20,279
if you do all of those things if

514
00:18:20,279 --> 00:18:22,440
you're not becoming who you want to become.

515
00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:24,359
Mhmm. I think of it more like president

516
00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:26,804
Nelson recently said, in the coming day, it

517
00:18:26,804 --> 00:18:28,904
may not be possible to survive spiritually

518
00:18:29,444 --> 00:18:32,244
without personal revelation. Mhmm. I think that there's

519
00:18:32,244 --> 00:18:34,484
this push in the church that's encouraging people

520
00:18:34,484 --> 00:18:37,384
to become something more than what they are.

521
00:18:37,684 --> 00:18:40,164
And, like, just following the step like, when

522
00:18:40,164 --> 00:18:41,929
I was growing up in the church, the

523
00:18:41,929 --> 00:18:44,329
idea was you follow the steps, you teach

524
00:18:44,329 --> 00:18:46,009
your kids to follow the steps, and then

525
00:18:46,009 --> 00:18:48,009
when they're old, everything's gonna be just fine.

526
00:18:48,009 --> 00:18:50,029
Yeah. But I think that the reality is

527
00:18:50,250 --> 00:18:52,569
that that's just not true anymore. Mhmm. And

528
00:18:52,569 --> 00:18:54,650
I think the danger in thinking that the

529
00:18:54,650 --> 00:18:57,390
steps are gonna automatically lead us to something

530
00:18:57,464 --> 00:19:00,105
is it makes us afraid when somebody isn't

531
00:19:00,105 --> 00:19:02,505
following the steps. Yeah. I think about that

532
00:19:02,505 --> 00:19:03,884
a lot when I go to church.

533
00:19:04,265 --> 00:19:05,784
I mean, it's obvious to see the people

534
00:19:05,784 --> 00:19:08,025
that aren't following all of the steps, especially

535
00:19:08,025 --> 00:19:09,704
when I was a a YSA bishop. This

536
00:19:09,704 --> 00:19:10,605
is what I noticed.

537
00:19:11,009 --> 00:19:12,789
The kids that looked perfect,

538
00:19:13,170 --> 00:19:15,170
the kids that looked like they were following

539
00:19:15,170 --> 00:19:15,990
all the steps

540
00:19:16,289 --> 00:19:19,170
were, like, sometimes inside really, really in a

541
00:19:19,170 --> 00:19:21,170
bad place. Mhmm. And the kids that looked

542
00:19:21,170 --> 00:19:22,930
like they weren't following the steps, maybe they

543
00:19:22,930 --> 00:19:24,769
didn't, like, dress right, maybe they had long

544
00:19:24,769 --> 00:19:25,670
hair or whatever,

545
00:19:26,025 --> 00:19:27,724
Oftentimes, like, they were becoming

546
00:19:28,265 --> 00:19:30,025
what you want them to become. And inside,

547
00:19:30,025 --> 00:19:32,585
they were authentic. Right? Yeah. Sweetly. Yeah. Yeah.

548
00:19:32,585 --> 00:19:34,184
So I think that in many ways, I'm

549
00:19:34,184 --> 00:19:35,785
just trying to push us to think about

550
00:19:35,785 --> 00:19:36,285
religion

551
00:19:36,664 --> 00:19:37,404
less about

552
00:19:37,705 --> 00:19:39,839
this idea that following the steps is gonna

553
00:19:39,839 --> 00:19:41,680
lead us to where we wanna go. Mhmm.

554
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,000
Because if if you're not genuinely doing them

555
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:45,759
for the right reason, then even following the

556
00:19:45,759 --> 00:19:48,160
steps isn't sufficient to get you to become

557
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:50,500
who heavenly father wants you to become. Yeah.

558
00:19:50,674 --> 00:19:52,914
Anything else about as far as this measuring

559
00:19:52,914 --> 00:19:55,234
religion and this different approach or stepping back

560
00:19:55,234 --> 00:19:57,794
and rethinking it? Or does it kinda come

561
00:19:57,794 --> 00:20:00,034
down to these 16 questions you've identified? Not

562
00:20:00,034 --> 00:20:01,875
that these are the golden questions and you

563
00:20:01,875 --> 00:20:04,309
figured it out. But Yes. That's an I

564
00:20:04,309 --> 00:20:06,650
feel like, statistically, I've proven my case.

565
00:20:06,950 --> 00:20:08,090
I feel like, philosophically,

566
00:20:08,470 --> 00:20:11,029
theologically, I'd love to, like, start that discussion

567
00:20:11,029 --> 00:20:13,430
of, like, should we think about religion as

568
00:20:13,430 --> 00:20:15,750
something more than just what we do and

569
00:20:15,750 --> 00:20:17,865
more about, like, who we are? Yeah. And

570
00:20:17,865 --> 00:20:20,345
do you have the 16 questions memorized, or,

571
00:20:20,345 --> 00:20:21,704
like, could you take us through better give

572
00:20:21,704 --> 00:20:23,785
us a better idea of, like I wish

573
00:20:23,785 --> 00:20:24,765
I had them memorized.

574
00:20:25,144 --> 00:20:26,638
Like, what are they focused on or how

575
00:20:26,638 --> 00:20:29,305
do you Okay. So transcendence is about your

576
00:20:29,305 --> 00:20:31,704
connection to something a higher power, something greater

577
00:20:31,704 --> 00:20:33,579
than you. Right? So so the questions are

578
00:20:33,579 --> 00:20:35,899
like, I feel a connection to the divine.

579
00:20:35,899 --> 00:20:37,440
I feel God's love for me.

580
00:20:37,819 --> 00:20:39,819
That one, members of our church actually score

581
00:20:39,819 --> 00:20:41,819
higher than any other religion in the world

582
00:20:41,819 --> 00:20:42,799
on that particular

583
00:20:43,339 --> 00:20:44,240
battery of questions.

584
00:20:44,700 --> 00:20:45,200
Humanity

585
00:20:45,500 --> 00:20:46,159
is about,

586
00:20:46,515 --> 00:20:48,275
do you love other people? Do you care?

587
00:20:48,275 --> 00:20:49,795
So one of the questions is like, if

588
00:20:49,795 --> 00:20:51,795
I saw somebody and their car was broken

589
00:20:51,795 --> 00:20:53,714
down, would I stop and help them? Right?

590
00:20:53,714 --> 00:20:56,295
Or do you genuinely care about other people?

591
00:20:56,434 --> 00:20:58,035
That one, members of our church don't do

592
00:20:58,035 --> 00:20:58,695
so well

593
00:20:59,234 --> 00:21:02,190
as they maybe should. Justice is the idea

594
00:21:02,190 --> 00:21:03,950
that people should be treated fairly no matter

595
00:21:03,950 --> 00:21:05,809
what's going on. Like everybody's

596
00:21:06,430 --> 00:21:08,049
equal, should be treated equally.

597
00:21:08,430 --> 00:21:10,529
And then temperance is this idea of

598
00:21:11,230 --> 00:21:13,789
not giving into excess, right? Being humble. I

599
00:21:13,789 --> 00:21:15,410
guess it'd be the opposite of pride.

600
00:21:15,784 --> 00:21:17,625
It'd be the opposite of gluttony. That would

601
00:21:17,625 --> 00:21:18,365
be temperance.

602
00:21:18,825 --> 00:21:21,625
Yeah. Yeah. And I'm just thinking, like, from

603
00:21:21,625 --> 00:21:23,464
a Latter day Saint perspective, you know, we

604
00:21:23,464 --> 00:21:25,404
have such a strong tradition about

605
00:21:25,704 --> 00:21:26,204
ordinances,

606
00:21:27,065 --> 00:21:27,565
covenants,

607
00:21:27,944 --> 00:21:29,865
where it's like, yeah, those things are important.

608
00:21:29,865 --> 00:21:31,679
But at the core, it needs to be

609
00:21:31,679 --> 00:21:34,400
in this covenantal relationship. Right? And but sometimes

610
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:35,859
we miss some of these transcendent

611
00:21:36,319 --> 00:21:38,500
Yeah. Traits. We we hope we're getting there,

612
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,460
but by pushing maybe this tradition,

613
00:21:41,759 --> 00:21:43,119
not that we shouldn't push it, but I'm

614
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:46,195
just saying we kinda leave these really strong

615
00:21:46,195 --> 00:21:46,695
components

616
00:21:47,154 --> 00:21:48,275
in the way. Yeah. I think in the

617
00:21:48,275 --> 00:21:50,515
church, we get there's these false doctrines that

618
00:21:50,515 --> 00:21:53,555
creep in. There's this prosperity gospel idea that

619
00:21:53,555 --> 00:21:55,555
creeps into our church that says that if

620
00:21:55,555 --> 00:21:57,654
you're righteous, you're gonna be successful.

621
00:21:58,250 --> 00:22:00,009
And then along with that is this idea

622
00:22:00,009 --> 00:22:01,529
that if you're successful, you should be able

623
00:22:01,529 --> 00:22:03,369
to buy anything you wanna buy and, like,

624
00:22:03,369 --> 00:22:05,690
do whatever you wanna do. And there's nothing

625
00:22:05,690 --> 00:22:07,850
in the gospel that teaches that. Right? And

626
00:22:07,850 --> 00:22:10,330
so we could do better at, like this

627
00:22:10,330 --> 00:22:12,170
is why I think on temperance, maybe we

628
00:22:12,170 --> 00:22:13,744
don't score so well. Right? Because we could

629
00:22:13,744 --> 00:22:15,904
do better on this idea of, like, you

630
00:22:15,904 --> 00:22:17,424
don't have to buy everything you could maybe

631
00:22:17,424 --> 00:22:18,865
afford, and maybe you don't need the biggest

632
00:22:18,865 --> 00:22:20,164
house or whatever. Right?

633
00:22:20,464 --> 00:22:22,704
Humanity, same thing. We have in this church,

634
00:22:22,704 --> 00:22:24,544
this tradition, and I'm not gonna say that

635
00:22:24,544 --> 00:22:26,644
this isn't doctrinal, but there's this tradition

636
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,180
that you pull yourself up by your bootstraps

637
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,720
and you, like, work hard. And, like, if

638
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,700
you work hard enough, you're gonna achieve something.

639
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,339
And I just think that in the scriptures,

640
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,724
Jesus regularly kinda shows us that, like, even

641
00:22:40,724 --> 00:22:42,724
if you're successful because you pulled yourself up

642
00:22:42,724 --> 00:22:44,724
by your bootstraps, you have to help the

643
00:22:44,724 --> 00:22:46,325
other people that that's not working out for

644
00:22:46,325 --> 00:22:48,025
them, and you gotta look out for them.

645
00:22:48,164 --> 00:22:50,085
And so I think we have programs in

646
00:22:50,085 --> 00:22:50,664
the church

647
00:22:51,365 --> 00:22:54,009
designed to help people do these things. And

648
00:22:54,009 --> 00:22:55,450
I know that there are members of the

649
00:22:55,450 --> 00:22:57,450
church that are doing these things. I just

650
00:22:57,450 --> 00:22:59,609
don't think that it's a part of our

651
00:22:59,609 --> 00:23:02,650
everyday teaching, our everyday focus, our everyday like,

652
00:23:02,650 --> 00:23:03,930
when we say, what does it mean to

653
00:23:03,930 --> 00:23:05,150
be a member of the church?

654
00:23:05,585 --> 00:23:07,345
We're way more focused on, like, did you

655
00:23:07,345 --> 00:23:09,825
drink coffee today? Then, like, did you do

656
00:23:09,825 --> 00:23:12,325
something to help somebody in need today? Yeah.

657
00:23:12,785 --> 00:23:13,285
So,

658
00:23:13,744 --> 00:23:16,325
generally, the hope is just, is this person

659
00:23:16,944 --> 00:23:18,244
becoming more sanctified

660
00:23:18,625 --> 00:23:21,950
in using maybe our our verbiage. Right? Because

661
00:23:21,950 --> 00:23:24,750
I know that they're I've witnessed individuals who

662
00:23:24,750 --> 00:23:26,670
are like they're very rigid in our faith

663
00:23:26,670 --> 00:23:28,750
tradition. They, you know, do all the things

664
00:23:28,750 --> 00:23:30,269
as a youth. They maybe go on a

665
00:23:30,269 --> 00:23:31,950
mission. They do the temple thing, and they're

666
00:23:31,950 --> 00:23:34,609
they're doing all the the behavioral focus things.

667
00:23:34,830 --> 00:23:36,830
And then they come to this moment of

668
00:23:37,125 --> 00:23:39,765
it almost they're so rigid that their their

669
00:23:39,765 --> 00:23:42,664
framing breaks down a lot easier because suddenly

670
00:23:42,964 --> 00:23:44,805
my life begins to fall apart. Hey. Wait

671
00:23:44,805 --> 00:23:46,404
a minute. I did all this stuff. I

672
00:23:46,404 --> 00:23:49,365
should then, you know, see blessings and this

673
00:23:49,365 --> 00:23:51,144
should all work out. And then it doesn't.

674
00:23:51,599 --> 00:23:53,759
And when I see those people leave the

675
00:23:53,759 --> 00:23:55,440
church, I have to it breaks my heart

676
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:57,679
because I think you are leaving a church

677
00:23:57,679 --> 00:23:59,599
that I never joined. Like, it was never

678
00:23:59,599 --> 00:24:02,079
about the gospel equation and doing all the

679
00:24:02,079 --> 00:24:03,759
things so you do the right things. Right?

680
00:24:03,759 --> 00:24:05,934
And so but as a parent or a

681
00:24:05,934 --> 00:24:07,774
leader, sometimes it breaks our heart to see

682
00:24:07,774 --> 00:24:09,534
them leave, but at the same time, they

683
00:24:09,534 --> 00:24:12,335
need some type of reset because Yeah. They

684
00:24:12,335 --> 00:24:14,974
were not on a covenant path that was

685
00:24:14,974 --> 00:24:15,474
sustainable.

686
00:24:15,855 --> 00:24:17,454
Right? It was just sort of going through

687
00:24:17,454 --> 00:24:18,595
the motions expecting

688
00:24:19,309 --> 00:24:20,829
heaven to send the blessings and make it

689
00:24:20,829 --> 00:24:22,829
all good. Right? Yeah. Or I think a

690
00:24:22,829 --> 00:24:24,509
lot of times as leaders and parents, we

691
00:24:24,509 --> 00:24:25,410
believe that

692
00:24:25,869 --> 00:24:27,809
if somebody follows all the steps,

693
00:24:28,190 --> 00:24:30,910
then the promised outcome is that you become

694
00:24:30,910 --> 00:24:32,429
who you're gonna become. Yeah. But it's not

695
00:24:32,934 --> 00:24:34,295
like, I know as a youth, there were

696
00:24:34,295 --> 00:24:36,134
many times that I was supposed to go

697
00:24:36,134 --> 00:24:38,634
on a service project. I didn't want to.

698
00:24:38,695 --> 00:24:40,634
I did it anyways and had a wonderful

699
00:24:40,695 --> 00:24:43,575
experience. But that's not everybody's experience. That doesn't

700
00:24:43,575 --> 00:24:45,720
happen for everybody. Right? That they go through

701
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:47,400
these steps and do these things, and then

702
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,579
the outcome is an awesome thing. Like,

703
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:51,799
I think that faith and religion is a

704
00:24:51,799 --> 00:24:54,140
very personal thing between a person and God.

705
00:24:54,279 --> 00:24:57,160
And whether the faith actually transforms a person,

706
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:58,920
I think as leaders and parents, we have

707
00:24:58,920 --> 00:24:59,579
to recognize

708
00:24:59,924 --> 00:25:02,025
whether or not a person is actually transformed

709
00:25:02,245 --> 00:25:04,245
by the religion is actually up to that

710
00:25:04,245 --> 00:25:06,644
person and the way that they practice faith.

711
00:25:06,644 --> 00:25:09,065
And so we can love, we can encourage,

712
00:25:09,365 --> 00:25:11,125
and then we have to, at some point,

713
00:25:11,125 --> 00:25:12,899
just say, and then it's up to them.

714
00:25:12,899 --> 00:25:15,380
Like, is it really gonna change them? Yeah.

715
00:25:15,380 --> 00:25:16,579
And I've seen this, and this is where

716
00:25:16,579 --> 00:25:18,579
it gets really a little uncomfortable and and

717
00:25:18,579 --> 00:25:20,659
tricky. But to me, this is just the

718
00:25:20,659 --> 00:25:22,200
paradox of God and the

719
00:25:22,500 --> 00:25:25,240
the complexity of mortality as I've seen individuals

720
00:25:25,299 --> 00:25:27,554
leave leave the church. They maybe even grasp

721
00:25:27,554 --> 00:25:29,634
on to maybe a a new age type

722
00:25:29,634 --> 00:25:32,274
of movement, right, where they're doing yoga, they're

723
00:25:32,274 --> 00:25:34,115
in the wilderness a lot, they're doing these

724
00:25:34,115 --> 00:25:37,095
retreats, they're doing, you know, silent retreats, meditations,

725
00:25:37,634 --> 00:25:38,934
and there is a transformational

726
00:25:39,234 --> 00:25:41,700
component to that. It's happening outside of the

727
00:25:41,940 --> 00:25:44,740
LDS or Christian context, and we're kinda uncomfortable

728
00:25:44,740 --> 00:25:45,480
with that. Like,

729
00:25:45,859 --> 00:25:48,740
well and my belief is that, like, god

730
00:25:48,740 --> 00:25:50,980
will work with us wherever we're at, and

731
00:25:50,980 --> 00:25:53,299
he he will continually nudge us back to

732
00:25:53,299 --> 00:25:55,380
his covenant path. But while we're out because

733
00:25:55,380 --> 00:25:57,144
like you said, it's a choice. Yeah. Like,

734
00:25:57,144 --> 00:25:59,545
if they've made that choice, does god just

735
00:25:59,545 --> 00:26:01,785
say, well, I guess I'll give up on

736
00:26:01,785 --> 00:26:03,704
him. No. He's gonna say, how can I

737
00:26:03,704 --> 00:26:06,025
influence you in that context and hopefully guide

738
00:26:06,025 --> 00:26:08,904
you back to the relationship? Right? Yeah. I

739
00:26:08,904 --> 00:26:10,184
think in a lot of these things, we

740
00:26:10,184 --> 00:26:11,940
need to take a big picture view. And

741
00:26:11,940 --> 00:26:13,619
again, when I talk about that all of

742
00:26:13,619 --> 00:26:16,039
these different religions and even atheists and agnostics

743
00:26:16,179 --> 00:26:17,240
can become religious,

744
00:26:17,619 --> 00:26:20,179
I a 100% believe that that's God that's

745
00:26:20,179 --> 00:26:21,859
doing it. Mhmm. I believe that God works

746
00:26:21,859 --> 00:26:24,019
through people. Like you said, in whatever way

747
00:26:24,019 --> 00:26:25,825
he can work with them, he's gonna find

748
00:26:25,825 --> 00:26:27,184
a way to reach out to them because

749
00:26:27,184 --> 00:26:29,505
they're his children. Mhmm. He loves them. And

750
00:26:29,505 --> 00:26:31,105
any way that he can be close just

751
00:26:31,105 --> 00:26:33,025
like us with our own children, right? Anything

752
00:26:33,025 --> 00:26:34,225
we can do to be close to our

753
00:26:34,225 --> 00:26:35,664
kids, we're gonna try to do that. And

754
00:26:35,664 --> 00:26:37,765
I think that God's very much that way.

755
00:26:37,985 --> 00:26:39,585
And I also think that, like, we need

756
00:26:39,585 --> 00:26:40,725
to be more comfortable

757
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,200
with people choosing their path if that's what

758
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,080
it looks like. It's hard, right, because we

759
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:48,920
believe that in the restored gospel and that

760
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:50,680
this is the plat like, the path to

761
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:52,840
salvation and, like, this is the way. So

762
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:54,599
it can be really hard to watch somebody

763
00:26:54,599 --> 00:26:56,674
step away from that. But I think it's

764
00:26:56,674 --> 00:26:57,575
okay. Like,

765
00:26:57,875 --> 00:26:59,795
I've seen enough people that step away and

766
00:26:59,795 --> 00:27:01,634
then come back. But if if you're thinking,

767
00:27:01,634 --> 00:27:03,255
like, an eternal perspective,

768
00:27:03,714 --> 00:27:05,315
a lot of people can step away and

769
00:27:05,315 --> 00:27:07,474
then come back again. And if their path

770
00:27:07,474 --> 00:27:08,214
to God

771
00:27:08,529 --> 00:27:11,410
involves something through Buddhism or atheism or whatever,

772
00:27:11,410 --> 00:27:13,170
who cares? Like, in the end, like, they're

773
00:27:13,170 --> 00:27:15,490
coming back to him. Yeah. And especially more

774
00:27:15,490 --> 00:27:16,549
prominent in our

775
00:27:16,930 --> 00:27:19,569
religious theology tradition is that we play a

776
00:27:19,569 --> 00:27:21,329
very long game. Like, he talked to some

777
00:27:21,329 --> 00:27:23,170
protestants, and they're like, no. It's this life

778
00:27:23,170 --> 00:27:24,534
or nothing. You know? Where

779
00:27:24,914 --> 00:27:27,154
that transformation is gonna happen in various forms,

780
00:27:27,154 --> 00:27:28,994
and we have a long game that we

781
00:27:28,994 --> 00:27:30,994
can be at peace with when we see

782
00:27:30,994 --> 00:27:33,394
maybe a loved one that's sort of that

783
00:27:33,394 --> 00:27:35,554
they're on a different path. We can have

784
00:27:35,554 --> 00:27:37,650
patience knowing that we have a lot of

785
00:27:37,650 --> 00:27:39,490
time to work with and that we can

786
00:27:39,490 --> 00:27:41,170
still love them, support them as they're on

787
00:27:41,170 --> 00:27:43,590
that path. And it's okay to recognize

788
00:27:44,289 --> 00:27:44,789
transformation

789
00:27:45,410 --> 00:27:47,490
for good that's happening to them as they're

790
00:27:47,490 --> 00:27:48,150
on that

791
00:27:48,450 --> 00:27:50,289
alternative path. You know? Again, not and this

792
00:27:50,289 --> 00:27:51,990
is where it's tricky because I'm not saying

793
00:27:52,125 --> 00:27:53,565
if I was a bishop, someone comes in

794
00:27:53,565 --> 00:27:54,924
and be like, well, I don't kinda I'm

795
00:27:54,924 --> 00:27:56,765
just kinda not feeling it in this church.

796
00:27:56,765 --> 00:27:58,444
It'd be like, well, have you checked out,

797
00:27:58,444 --> 00:28:00,525
you know, new age? Like, try that or

798
00:28:00,525 --> 00:28:03,664
Buddhism or maybe Reiki's lots of fun. Exactly.

799
00:28:04,125 --> 00:28:06,125
But you know what's interesting, Kurt? And this

800
00:28:06,125 --> 00:28:07,644
was when I was a bishop, I learned

801
00:28:07,644 --> 00:28:08,099
this.

802
00:28:08,579 --> 00:28:10,759
Like, Jesus suffered for all of our sins,

803
00:28:10,819 --> 00:28:13,400
right? Mhmm. Knowing that we're gonna commit sin.

804
00:28:13,539 --> 00:28:15,799
And I I knew a number of individuals

805
00:28:16,099 --> 00:28:17,539
who did not have a lot of faith

806
00:28:17,539 --> 00:28:18,599
in Jesus Christ

807
00:28:18,900 --> 00:28:20,759
before they went through a transformative

808
00:28:21,220 --> 00:28:22,359
repentance process

809
00:28:22,815 --> 00:28:24,575
for a really big thing that they had

810
00:28:24,575 --> 00:28:27,054
done wrong. And I realized as a bishop,

811
00:28:27,054 --> 00:28:28,835
like, Jesus doesn't care.

812
00:28:29,134 --> 00:28:31,234
He doesn't care if you come to him

813
00:28:31,375 --> 00:28:32,894
because you were raised in the church and

814
00:28:32,894 --> 00:28:34,335
you always tried to do the good things

815
00:28:34,335 --> 00:28:35,934
and he was like there as a constant

816
00:28:35,934 --> 00:28:38,390
companion in your life, Or if you live

817
00:28:38,390 --> 00:28:40,230
this horrible life of sin and came went

818
00:28:40,230 --> 00:28:41,049
through a transformative

819
00:28:41,349 --> 00:28:43,750
process through the atonement and then came to

820
00:28:43,750 --> 00:28:45,910
really know, like, wow. He is real because

821
00:28:45,910 --> 00:28:48,390
I've been cleansed from this, and I didn't

822
00:28:48,390 --> 00:28:49,990
know how to make, like, make the shame

823
00:28:49,990 --> 00:28:51,589
go away. I didn't know how to make

824
00:28:51,589 --> 00:28:53,804
the guilt go away, but he took that

825
00:28:53,804 --> 00:28:55,724
away from me. Like, in the end, Jesus

826
00:28:55,724 --> 00:28:58,285
doesn't care. That's why he suffered for everybody's

827
00:28:58,285 --> 00:29:00,365
sins. And so if it means like a

828
00:29:00,365 --> 00:29:02,204
person is gonna go on a path and

829
00:29:02,204 --> 00:29:03,884
they're gonna find some good in their life,

830
00:29:03,884 --> 00:29:05,804
and then they're gonna find something else missing

831
00:29:05,804 --> 00:29:07,420
in their life, and then at some point,

832
00:29:07,420 --> 00:29:09,740
it all just comes together, that's great. I

833
00:29:09,740 --> 00:29:11,820
don't think Jesus cares. Yeah. And I think

834
00:29:11,820 --> 00:29:13,420
we all do that to some extent. Just

835
00:29:13,420 --> 00:29:15,680
some are more some actions are more stigmatized

836
00:29:15,820 --> 00:29:17,500
than others. I mean, we're all we're always

837
00:29:17,500 --> 00:29:19,820
sort of leaving the path and need to

838
00:29:19,820 --> 00:29:21,279
come back. I mean, that's what repentance is.

839
00:29:21,279 --> 00:29:23,025
You know? So Yeah. What are we missing

840
00:29:23,025 --> 00:29:23,424
with,

841
00:29:23,825 --> 00:29:26,485
let's see. Bob, you wanna talk politics stuff?

842
00:29:26,705 --> 00:29:28,305
Oh, yeah. How it matters for politics? Yeah.

843
00:29:28,305 --> 00:29:30,384
So how does this matter for politics? To

844
00:29:30,384 --> 00:29:32,465
me, that's the really but to me, that's

845
00:29:32,465 --> 00:29:34,305
the really cool thing. To be honest, my

846
00:29:34,305 --> 00:29:36,210
brain didn't even go to politics, but the

847
00:29:36,210 --> 00:29:37,509
political scientist there,

848
00:29:38,130 --> 00:29:39,890
everything has to go back to politics right

849
00:29:39,890 --> 00:29:42,289
now. You will I think it's important. I

850
00:29:42,289 --> 00:29:43,970
think when you look at what president Nelson

851
00:29:43,970 --> 00:29:45,730
and what president Oaks are teaching, like, I

852
00:29:45,730 --> 00:29:47,569
think they're telling members of our church that

853
00:29:47,569 --> 00:29:48,929
we're supposed to be the city on the

854
00:29:48,929 --> 00:29:51,029
hill. We're supposed to be the ones

855
00:29:51,494 --> 00:29:54,055
showing people how to do politics the right

856
00:29:54,055 --> 00:29:57,494
way. Mhmm. And this actually this scale, like,

857
00:29:57,494 --> 00:30:00,295
people who do this religious becoming, they actually

858
00:30:00,295 --> 00:30:02,295
behave politically in the way that the prophet

859
00:30:02,295 --> 00:30:04,134
wants them to behave. So I think it

860
00:30:04,134 --> 00:30:06,899
has really cool implications because okay, so so

861
00:30:06,899 --> 00:30:07,399
politically,

862
00:30:07,859 --> 00:30:10,039
if you talk about political tolerance,

863
00:30:10,500 --> 00:30:12,839
political tolerance is the idea that

864
00:30:13,220 --> 00:30:15,619
you ask people which group in society do

865
00:30:15,619 --> 00:30:17,460
you hate the most. And after they tell

866
00:30:17,460 --> 00:30:19,000
you who they hate the most,

867
00:30:19,460 --> 00:30:20,519
then you say,

868
00:30:20,965 --> 00:30:22,805
should that person be allowed to do this?

869
00:30:22,805 --> 00:30:24,404
Should they be allowed to do this? What

870
00:30:24,404 --> 00:30:25,924
about this? Should they be able to vote?

871
00:30:25,924 --> 00:30:28,164
Should they be able to run-in elections? Should

872
00:30:28,164 --> 00:30:30,025
they be able to speak in public?

873
00:30:30,404 --> 00:30:32,565
And what you find, it's actually kind of

874
00:30:32,565 --> 00:30:33,865
sad, but religion

875
00:30:34,420 --> 00:30:37,619
is negatively associated with tolerance. The more religious

876
00:30:37,619 --> 00:30:40,099
a person is by those three Bs, the

877
00:30:40,099 --> 00:30:41,799
less tolerant they are of others.

878
00:30:42,500 --> 00:30:44,759
But this one actually has the opposite effect.

879
00:30:45,140 --> 00:30:47,585
The higher you score in religious becoming, the

880
00:30:47,585 --> 00:30:49,684
more tolerant you are of other people.

881
00:30:50,144 --> 00:30:51,984
And it's for two reasons. It's one, because

882
00:30:51,984 --> 00:30:52,884
when you're religious,

883
00:30:53,505 --> 00:30:55,825
those people you hate are less threatening. You

884
00:30:55,825 --> 00:30:57,684
don't see them as much of a threat.

885
00:30:57,825 --> 00:30:59,184
But then the other one is just because

886
00:30:59,184 --> 00:31:00,865
you care about people more than you care

887
00:31:00,865 --> 00:31:04,329
about politics. And so, as politics becomes more

888
00:31:04,329 --> 00:31:06,170
divisive and hateful and all of that stuff

889
00:31:06,170 --> 00:31:07,150
in The United States,

890
00:31:07,769 --> 00:31:09,630
the traditional measures of religion

891
00:31:10,009 --> 00:31:12,329
make it look like religion's bad. But this

892
00:31:12,329 --> 00:31:14,170
way of thinking about religion actually shows that

893
00:31:14,170 --> 00:31:16,190
religion is a positive effect in society.

894
00:31:16,534 --> 00:31:18,694
Yeah, but not necessarily in the traditional going

895
00:31:18,694 --> 00:31:20,454
to church type of thing. Nope. Nope. It's

896
00:31:20,454 --> 00:31:22,214
the people that are scoring high and becoming.

897
00:31:22,214 --> 00:31:24,714
Yeah. Yeah, they're the ones that are tolerant.

898
00:31:25,174 --> 00:31:27,894
And also, it shows that young people are

899
00:31:27,894 --> 00:31:30,220
just as religious as old people. So this

900
00:31:30,220 --> 00:31:32,859
idea that, like, Gen Z and millennials are

901
00:31:32,859 --> 00:31:34,000
losing religion,

902
00:31:34,380 --> 00:31:36,460
they're just not going to church. But that's

903
00:31:36,460 --> 00:31:38,460
just because they do everything differently. Right? So

904
00:31:38,460 --> 00:31:39,919
as they move away from institutions,

905
00:31:40,539 --> 00:31:43,125
some people say, oh, we're losing them. But

906
00:31:43,125 --> 00:31:44,884
I show that, no. We're not losing young

907
00:31:44,884 --> 00:31:47,525
people. We're still keeping them. They just practice

908
00:31:47,525 --> 00:31:50,404
religion differently, but they're still developing these sorts

909
00:31:50,404 --> 00:31:51,845
of traits that we would want them to

910
00:31:51,845 --> 00:31:54,085
develop. Yeah. And, again, it's keeping the focus

911
00:31:54,085 --> 00:31:57,339
on the transformation. Like, again, I I wanna

912
00:31:57,339 --> 00:32:00,140
reiterate, like, Jesus is the is the answer

913
00:32:00,140 --> 00:32:01,039
to all mortalities,

914
00:32:01,819 --> 00:32:03,819
ills, and and so forth. But I'm just

915
00:32:03,819 --> 00:32:05,660
thinking, like, you have a center daughter who's

916
00:32:05,660 --> 00:32:07,259
maybe like, well, I don't wanna go on

917
00:32:07,259 --> 00:32:09,035
a mission. And it was sort of like,

918
00:32:09,035 --> 00:32:11,035
you know, for me, that that mission was

919
00:32:11,035 --> 00:32:14,154
pivotal. That was a transformational experience. Right? And

920
00:32:14,154 --> 00:32:16,154
so instead of saying, like, okay. You're not

921
00:32:16,154 --> 00:32:18,634
doing the mission. What transformational experience can you

922
00:32:18,634 --> 00:32:20,394
do? Like, I have a nephew, didn't serve

923
00:32:20,394 --> 00:32:21,144
a traditional

924
00:32:21,450 --> 00:32:23,929
mission. However, a few years later, he went

925
00:32:23,929 --> 00:32:25,450
into the air force. And the air force

926
00:32:25,450 --> 00:32:28,089
was a transformational experience that he's I can

927
00:32:28,089 --> 00:32:30,169
see the becoming happening in him. Right? Yeah.

928
00:32:30,169 --> 00:32:31,549
And so whether it's like

929
00:32:31,849 --> 00:32:33,769
you know, let's talk about not the just

930
00:32:33,769 --> 00:32:36,169
the mission, but what transformational experience can you

931
00:32:36,169 --> 00:32:36,669
do

932
00:32:37,054 --> 00:32:38,835
to keep going and keep being,

933
00:32:39,375 --> 00:32:41,535
religious. Right? Yeah. So Same thing for my

934
00:32:41,535 --> 00:32:43,855
son. He joined the army, and it like,

935
00:32:43,855 --> 00:32:45,295
he hated me before he joined the army.

936
00:32:45,295 --> 00:32:47,054
He joined the army, and then, like, yeah,

937
00:32:47,054 --> 00:32:49,134
it was transformative for him. Changed everything for

938
00:32:49,134 --> 00:32:51,154
him. And now he left you. He does.

939
00:32:51,375 --> 00:32:53,299
Right now Right now he loves see how

940
00:32:53,299 --> 00:32:54,580
long that lasts. Well, so this is the

941
00:32:54,580 --> 00:32:56,019
other point, Kurt, that I think is important.

942
00:32:56,019 --> 00:32:58,660
The United States is becoming less Christian. And

943
00:32:58,660 --> 00:33:01,000
so as The United States becomes less Christian,

944
00:33:01,539 --> 00:33:03,380
a lot of members of our church are

945
00:33:03,380 --> 00:33:03,880
afraid

946
00:33:04,394 --> 00:33:06,875
that, like, maybe The United States is, like,

947
00:33:06,875 --> 00:33:07,934
losing its religious

948
00:33:08,394 --> 00:33:08,894
center.

949
00:33:09,355 --> 00:33:11,535
They're worried about the moral decay of society.

950
00:33:11,994 --> 00:33:13,595
And I think that it's just important for

951
00:33:13,595 --> 00:33:15,134
us to recognize that, like,

952
00:33:15,434 --> 00:33:17,355
even though the like, The United States can

953
00:33:17,355 --> 00:33:18,894
become less Christian,

954
00:33:19,259 --> 00:33:21,980
but it's actually becoming more religious. There's this

955
00:33:21,980 --> 00:33:24,160
group they do, it's called the Religion Census,

956
00:33:24,460 --> 00:33:27,359
and they track the number of church congregations

957
00:33:27,500 --> 00:33:29,660
in The United States. And over the last

958
00:33:29,660 --> 00:33:31,980
ten years, the number of religious congregations in

959
00:33:31,980 --> 00:33:34,220
The United States is actually growing. Mhmm. But

960
00:33:34,220 --> 00:33:34,960
it's Muslims

961
00:33:35,474 --> 00:33:37,494
and it's Buddhists and it's Hindus.

962
00:33:37,954 --> 00:33:40,295
So mainline Christianity is on the decline.

963
00:33:40,674 --> 00:33:42,115
So it's like, okay, so if we think

964
00:33:42,115 --> 00:33:43,414
about religion as

965
00:33:44,275 --> 00:33:44,934
like Episcopalians

966
00:33:45,315 --> 00:33:46,775
or Lutherans or Methodists,

967
00:33:47,329 --> 00:33:49,569
then we might say, oh, no, there's all

968
00:33:49,569 --> 00:33:51,890
these problems in America because we're losing religion.

969
00:33:51,890 --> 00:33:53,730
But we're not. We just have to recognize

970
00:33:53,730 --> 00:33:55,970
that, honestly, if you're a Lutheran or a

971
00:33:55,970 --> 00:33:57,890
Methodist or a Hindu or a Muslim, you're

972
00:33:57,890 --> 00:33:59,569
still not a member of our church, right?

973
00:33:59,569 --> 00:34:01,904
So- Yeah. We should, like, be less afraid

974
00:34:01,904 --> 00:34:03,365
about the decline of Christianity

975
00:34:04,224 --> 00:34:06,224
and embrace the growth of religion in The

976
00:34:06,224 --> 00:34:08,965
United States because, overall, that's a net positive

977
00:34:09,025 --> 00:34:10,864
for us even though it means that we

978
00:34:10,864 --> 00:34:12,864
have to start thinking about things differently than

979
00:34:12,864 --> 00:34:15,289
we have in the past. Yeah. So I'm

980
00:34:15,289 --> 00:34:17,690
full of cognitive dissonance right now. So let's

981
00:34:17,690 --> 00:34:20,250
process this because I totally like, on paper,

982
00:34:20,250 --> 00:34:22,349
I'm like, yeah. That's great. I'm so glad

983
00:34:22,489 --> 00:34:25,550
that society is moving in a religious direction.

984
00:34:26,010 --> 00:34:27,945
But give me truth, sir, and I'm like,

985
00:34:28,265 --> 00:34:29,885
we possess a superior

986
00:34:30,664 --> 00:34:31,164
tradition

987
00:34:31,785 --> 00:34:34,905
and religion that has so much more to

988
00:34:34,905 --> 00:34:37,065
offer for those individuals. Right? And so that's

989
00:34:37,065 --> 00:34:38,985
where I'm at, Laura. Yeah. Yeah. I know

990
00:34:38,985 --> 00:34:40,344
a lot of leaders are there too. Like,

991
00:34:40,344 --> 00:34:42,359
well, let's not get excited about people turning

992
00:34:42,359 --> 00:34:44,119
away from Jesus. That's what it sounds like.

993
00:34:44,119 --> 00:34:45,339
You know? But Yeah.

994
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,519
Well, so it's like it's about the net

995
00:34:48,519 --> 00:34:50,920
positive of society. Yeah. Right? So the so

996
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:52,920
you don't have to be celestial kingdom good.

997
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:54,760
Everyone in America doesn't have to be celestial

998
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:56,445
kingdom good for us to have all of

999
00:34:56,445 --> 00:34:58,844
these good things from religion happening in our

1000
00:34:58,844 --> 00:35:01,085
society. Mhmm. But what happens if we start

1001
00:35:01,085 --> 00:35:01,905
thinking about,

1002
00:35:02,204 --> 00:35:04,364
like, well, we're losing Lutherans. Or I don't

1003
00:35:04,364 --> 00:35:05,644
know if you know Ryan Birch, but he

1004
00:35:05,644 --> 00:35:07,005
had an op ed in the Desert News

1005
00:35:07,005 --> 00:35:08,684
recently about how hard it was for him

1006
00:35:08,684 --> 00:35:10,224
to lose his mainline

1007
00:35:10,829 --> 00:35:12,050
Christian congregation.

1008
00:35:12,349 --> 00:35:14,269
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Right? If we think about

1009
00:35:14,269 --> 00:35:16,190
this, like in the sadness of like we're

1010
00:35:16,190 --> 00:35:17,170
losing Christians,

1011
00:35:17,869 --> 00:35:20,369
well, those Christians are really not

1012
00:35:20,670 --> 00:35:23,309
on the covenant path. Right? They're not members

1013
00:35:23,309 --> 00:35:25,224
of our church. Mhmm. So whether they're Christians

1014
00:35:25,224 --> 00:35:26,844
or Muslims or Hindus or whatever,

1015
00:35:27,224 --> 00:35:29,224
if there's good that comes from religion and

1016
00:35:29,224 --> 00:35:31,005
it's coming into American society,

1017
00:35:31,385 --> 00:35:33,224
God's gonna protect us just the same as

1018
00:35:33,224 --> 00:35:34,284
if they were Episcopalian

1019
00:35:34,585 --> 00:35:36,905
or Lutheran or Methodist. Mhmm. Like, Muslims are

1020
00:35:36,905 --> 00:35:39,750
good people too. Hindus are fine people. And

1021
00:35:39,750 --> 00:35:42,010
so as a society, we should foster religion

1022
00:35:42,469 --> 00:35:43,610
in all of its expressions

1023
00:35:43,989 --> 00:35:46,309
because as we're more tolerant of Hindus or

1024
00:35:46,309 --> 00:35:47,530
more tolerant of Muslims,

1025
00:35:47,910 --> 00:35:50,150
then that creates more tolerance for our faith

1026
00:35:50,150 --> 00:35:52,255
too. Yeah. And it allows religion to do

1027
00:35:52,255 --> 00:35:53,855
the good stuff in society it's supposed to

1028
00:35:53,855 --> 00:35:55,775
do. For sure. And we'll still knock on

1029
00:35:55,775 --> 00:35:57,934
their door and say, we have something great.

1030
00:35:57,934 --> 00:36:00,255
Religious liberty gives us the right to to

1031
00:36:00,255 --> 00:36:01,855
proselyte. Right? Yeah. Yeah. For sure. But if

1032
00:36:01,855 --> 00:36:03,715
we say, well, we're afraid of other religions,

1033
00:36:04,015 --> 00:36:05,614
then we say, okay. Well, then it's okay

1034
00:36:05,614 --> 00:36:07,139
to say, like, if I can pass a

1035
00:36:07,139 --> 00:36:09,139
law that says a Muslim can't knock on

1036
00:36:09,139 --> 00:36:10,579
my door Mhmm. Then it's easy to change

1037
00:36:10,579 --> 00:36:11,619
the word Muslim for a member of the

1038
00:36:11,619 --> 00:36:13,300
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.

1039
00:36:13,300 --> 00:36:14,980
Right. And then that hurts us too. Yeah.

1040
00:36:14,980 --> 00:36:16,260
And I think this is I see this

1041
00:36:16,260 --> 00:36:18,260
a lot in just my relationship with pastor

1042
00:36:18,260 --> 00:36:20,739
Jeff from Hello Saints where some individuals, they

1043
00:36:20,739 --> 00:36:22,864
can't they have a private moment with me.

1044
00:36:22,864 --> 00:36:24,385
They're like, alright. Really? Like, is this guy

1045
00:36:24,385 --> 00:36:26,224
gonna join the church or not? You know?

1046
00:36:26,224 --> 00:36:28,784
Were they Pastor Jeff? Pastor Jeff. Right? But

1047
00:36:28,784 --> 00:36:31,525
they're just unsettled with this idea of, like,

1048
00:36:31,744 --> 00:36:34,065
well, why should we continue to encourage him

1049
00:36:34,065 --> 00:36:35,905
if he's not headed that direction? Where I'm

1050
00:36:35,905 --> 00:36:37,910
much more of like, no. I'm not gonna

1051
00:36:37,910 --> 00:36:39,510
join his church. He's not gonna join mine.

1052
00:36:39,510 --> 00:36:42,070
And but our relationship is beautiful. Right? And

1053
00:36:42,070 --> 00:36:44,470
same with, you know, obviously, in Utah, it's

1054
00:36:44,470 --> 00:36:45,930
a little more difficult to find

1055
00:36:46,309 --> 00:36:48,490
a a variety of of religions, but nonetheless,

1056
00:36:48,869 --> 00:36:51,530
it's a that's a valiant like, the interfaith

1057
00:36:51,590 --> 00:36:55,034
efforts are really valiant effort to engage in

1058
00:36:55,034 --> 00:36:57,914
society with good people, not to convert them,

1059
00:36:57,914 --> 00:36:59,614
but to just make society better.

1060
00:36:59,914 --> 00:37:01,275
Yeah. So this is the way I think

1061
00:37:01,275 --> 00:37:04,094
about it. Let's say that you're an LGBT

1062
00:37:04,474 --> 00:37:06,014
individual in San Francisco,

1063
00:37:06,579 --> 00:37:08,260
and you hear that there's this event being

1064
00:37:08,260 --> 00:37:09,619
put on by members of the Church of

1065
00:37:09,619 --> 00:37:12,179
Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. There's already

1066
00:37:12,179 --> 00:37:14,819
gonna be this automatic sort of bias against

1067
00:37:14,819 --> 00:37:17,219
members of our church because you feel like

1068
00:37:17,219 --> 00:37:19,460
Prop eight or whatever, like they hate us

1069
00:37:19,460 --> 00:37:21,324
and they don't like us and whatever. So

1070
00:37:21,324 --> 00:37:23,244
they're not gonna come to the event. But

1071
00:37:23,244 --> 00:37:25,244
let's say it's an interfaith event, and there's

1072
00:37:25,244 --> 00:37:27,644
Baha'i and there's, like, Reiki and there's Buddhists

1073
00:37:27,644 --> 00:37:29,965
and Muslims, and we're there too. Then they're

1074
00:37:29,965 --> 00:37:32,045
gonna show up, and then that gives us

1075
00:37:32,045 --> 00:37:35,429
an opportunity to introduce Christ to them in

1076
00:37:35,429 --> 00:37:36,869
a way we never would have been able

1077
00:37:36,869 --> 00:37:39,349
to before. Like, the reality is we're only,

1078
00:37:39,349 --> 00:37:41,750
like, what, 17,000,000 people on the entire Earth.

1079
00:37:41,750 --> 00:37:43,190
Like, we need as many friends as we

1080
00:37:43,190 --> 00:37:44,409
can possibly get.

1081
00:37:44,789 --> 00:37:47,989
And building those relationships only enhances our opportunity

1082
00:37:47,989 --> 00:37:50,365
to help other people and, ultimately, to share

1083
00:37:50,365 --> 00:37:52,525
the gospel with other people. Yeah. Yeah. And

1084
00:37:52,525 --> 00:37:53,724
and I think in the long run, that

1085
00:37:53,724 --> 00:37:55,405
really helps us in our effort of bringing

1086
00:37:55,644 --> 00:37:58,545
inviting people unto Christ is first show them

1087
00:37:58,605 --> 00:38:01,244
that those who orient themselves to Christ are

1088
00:38:01,244 --> 00:38:01,744
really

1089
00:38:02,260 --> 00:38:04,420
religious, like, on the scale. Right? They've probably

1090
00:38:04,420 --> 00:38:06,280
never met a member of our church before.

1091
00:38:06,420 --> 00:38:08,340
When we were in Kansas, the city we

1092
00:38:08,340 --> 00:38:09,780
were in, Lawrence, Kansas, they had what was

1093
00:38:09,780 --> 00:38:10,840
called the interfaith

1094
00:38:11,380 --> 00:38:14,760
community kitchen. And every religion in the community

1095
00:38:14,820 --> 00:38:15,640
had an opportunity

1096
00:38:15,940 --> 00:38:18,265
one day a month to provide a free

1097
00:38:18,265 --> 00:38:19,945
meal to the homeless or whoever wanted to

1098
00:38:19,945 --> 00:38:22,265
come get food. So our church took one

1099
00:38:22,265 --> 00:38:23,945
day a month. And so we would one

1100
00:38:23,945 --> 00:38:25,224
day a month, we would go serve meals

1101
00:38:25,224 --> 00:38:27,385
at this community kitchen. Well, so then that

1102
00:38:27,385 --> 00:38:29,545
means that all of these people are now

1103
00:38:29,545 --> 00:38:31,784
interacting with our faith, whereas they never would

1104
00:38:31,784 --> 00:38:33,309
have a If we had just as a

1105
00:38:33,309 --> 00:38:34,750
stake said, you know what? We're gonna once

1106
00:38:34,750 --> 00:38:35,949
a month offer a free meal at the

1107
00:38:35,949 --> 00:38:38,349
stake center. Nobody's coming to that. Right? But

1108
00:38:38,349 --> 00:38:39,789
if it's part of a bigger group, then

1109
00:38:39,789 --> 00:38:41,069
people are gonna show up and you take

1110
00:38:41,069 --> 00:38:42,750
your turn and then they meet you in

1111
00:38:42,750 --> 00:38:44,269
a place they never would have met you.

1112
00:38:44,269 --> 00:38:46,884
Yeah. Really good. Really good. Anything else with

1113
00:38:46,884 --> 00:38:48,644
politics? So we cover that pretty well. Or

1114
00:38:48,964 --> 00:38:50,484
Yeah. Let me just say this this other

1115
00:38:50,484 --> 00:38:53,625
thing about religious freedom and religious okay. So

1116
00:38:53,764 --> 00:38:55,364
so, typically, if you look at the history

1117
00:38:55,364 --> 00:38:56,105
of the world,

1118
00:38:56,484 --> 00:38:56,984
religion

1119
00:38:57,525 --> 00:38:58,344
and politics

1120
00:38:58,724 --> 00:39:01,360
are combined into one. Like, you have a

1121
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,360
king and that king is chosen by God

1122
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,599
and, like, ordained by the church, and that's

1123
00:39:05,599 --> 00:39:07,860
where that power comes from. And so traditionally,

1124
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:09,280
oh, like, if you look at the history

1125
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:10,500
of mankind, religion

1126
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,679
is a violent, a negative force in society.

1127
00:39:13,679 --> 00:39:15,940
Mhmm. What made The United States truly unique

1128
00:39:16,295 --> 00:39:18,155
was we had these various colonies

1129
00:39:18,454 --> 00:39:20,235
that were fleeing religious persecution.

1130
00:39:20,775 --> 00:39:23,094
And they came here and they said, we

1131
00:39:23,094 --> 00:39:24,855
have the Quakers in Pennsylvania. We have the

1132
00:39:24,855 --> 00:39:27,015
Puritans in Massachusetts. And they say, we're gonna

1133
00:39:27,015 --> 00:39:29,070
create a system of government. We might have

1134
00:39:29,070 --> 00:39:30,530
a state religion in Pennsylvania.

1135
00:39:30,910 --> 00:39:32,769
We might have a state religion in Massachusetts.

1136
00:39:33,309 --> 00:39:34,989
We're not going to have a state religion

1137
00:39:34,989 --> 00:39:38,050
in The United States. And it created this

1138
00:39:38,190 --> 00:39:41,010
true religious freedom because the Quakers in Pennsylvania

1139
00:39:41,715 --> 00:39:43,795
wanted both the freedom to practice their own

1140
00:39:43,795 --> 00:39:44,295
religion,

1141
00:39:44,675 --> 00:39:46,994
but also they wanted the freedom to have

1142
00:39:46,994 --> 00:39:49,414
the Puritans not tell them what to do.

1143
00:39:49,555 --> 00:39:51,394
And so we had true religious freedom in

1144
00:39:51,394 --> 00:39:53,015
The United States because we

1145
00:39:53,489 --> 00:39:53,989
protecting

1146
00:39:54,610 --> 00:39:56,623
both our own liberty and everybody else's liberty

1147
00:39:56,623 --> 00:39:57,929
at the same time. And that's what made

1148
00:39:57,929 --> 00:40:00,050
us so special. Mhmm. But what's happened in

1149
00:40:00,050 --> 00:40:02,150
The United States as we've become less Christian

1150
00:40:02,769 --> 00:40:03,429
is Christians

1151
00:40:03,969 --> 00:40:04,789
are now afraid

1152
00:40:05,250 --> 00:40:07,269
that they're like, wait a minute, we're losing

1153
00:40:07,894 --> 00:40:10,315
all of the stuff that makes us American.

1154
00:40:10,775 --> 00:40:13,734
Because we say, America is a Christian place.

1155
00:40:13,734 --> 00:40:16,295
America is a Judeo Christian place. And what

1156
00:40:16,295 --> 00:40:18,775
we're losing then is that religious liberty that

1157
00:40:18,775 --> 00:40:20,694
is the true foundation of The United States.

1158
00:40:20,694 --> 00:40:21,994
And so if we can say,

1159
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:24,739
we want the freedom to practice our religion,

1160
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:26,559
which means they have to have the freedom

1161
00:40:26,559 --> 00:40:29,119
to practice their religion however they practice it,

1162
00:40:29,119 --> 00:40:31,380
and that will give us true religious freedom.

1163
00:40:31,599 --> 00:40:33,519
Like, that's the way you get religious freedom

1164
00:40:33,519 --> 00:40:36,000
in The United States context. Right? And that's

1165
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,534
the And so, that begins with not being

1166
00:40:38,534 --> 00:40:39,594
afraid of

1167
00:40:39,974 --> 00:40:42,215
all these other new people that are coming

1168
00:40:42,215 --> 00:40:43,114
into our society

1169
00:40:43,414 --> 00:40:45,655
doing religion differently. And I think that that

1170
00:40:45,655 --> 00:40:47,835
begins with recognizing that they too

1171
00:40:48,215 --> 00:40:49,894
are striving for the same things we are

1172
00:40:49,894 --> 00:40:52,369
striving for. Mhmm. They want what we want.

1173
00:40:52,369 --> 00:40:54,289
Yeah. So we should embrace that and hold

1174
00:40:54,450 --> 00:40:57,650
like, welcome that. Mhmm. Encourage that. Yeah. Anything

1175
00:40:57,650 --> 00:41:00,050
with what this looks like in a ward

1176
00:41:00,050 --> 00:41:02,550
or you know, I think, generally, we're discouraged

1177
00:41:02,610 --> 00:41:04,610
from talking politics at church for a lot

1178
00:41:04,610 --> 00:41:07,005
of these reasons. But, I mean, should we

1179
00:41:07,005 --> 00:41:08,464
do that, or is there more

1180
00:41:08,924 --> 00:41:11,324
more of this transformation talk we can discover

1181
00:41:11,324 --> 00:41:12,144
in that context?

1182
00:41:12,764 --> 00:41:14,284
I think that what we should do in

1183
00:41:14,284 --> 00:41:16,444
terms of religion and politics in church is

1184
00:41:16,444 --> 00:41:18,284
we should recognize it's kind of like what

1185
00:41:18,284 --> 00:41:19,585
I was saying about my students.

1186
00:41:20,139 --> 00:41:22,880
Our political views are so tightly connected

1187
00:41:23,739 --> 00:41:25,500
to where we were raised and how we

1188
00:41:25,500 --> 00:41:27,659
were raised, and they're so tightly connected to

1189
00:41:27,659 --> 00:41:28,400
our faith

1190
00:41:28,780 --> 00:41:31,099
that if in church you start to peel

1191
00:41:31,099 --> 00:41:33,659
away Mhmm. Those sorts of things, you really

1192
00:41:33,659 --> 00:41:36,135
risk tearing down people's faith. I had to

1193
00:41:36,135 --> 00:41:38,295
learn this as a professor because I did

1194
00:41:38,295 --> 00:41:40,135
sometimes I would see that I was students

1195
00:41:40,135 --> 00:41:42,534
were losing faith in Jesus Christ because we

1196
00:41:42,534 --> 00:41:44,295
were talking about political ideas that to me

1197
00:41:44,295 --> 00:41:45,815
weren't even at all related. And I was

1198
00:41:45,815 --> 00:41:47,434
like, you just gotta be so careful.

1199
00:41:47,735 --> 00:41:49,094
And this is what's happening to a lot

1200
00:41:49,094 --> 00:41:51,739
of Christian congregations in The United States. As

1201
00:41:51,739 --> 00:41:53,119
they become more political,

1202
00:41:53,420 --> 00:41:55,659
they're losing members because the members are like,

1203
00:41:55,659 --> 00:41:57,260
I don't want any part of that. Mhmm.

1204
00:41:57,260 --> 00:41:58,880
And so we have to be so careful.

1205
00:41:59,420 --> 00:42:01,739
Like, in a Sunday school class, we're talking

1206
00:42:01,739 --> 00:42:03,339
about something, and they say, what's an example

1207
00:42:03,339 --> 00:42:05,744
of that? If you throw out some political

1208
00:42:05,744 --> 00:42:06,244
example,

1209
00:42:06,545 --> 00:42:08,885
you really risk tearing down a person's faith

1210
00:42:09,184 --> 00:42:10,864
even though it doesn't even seem connected to

1211
00:42:10,864 --> 00:42:12,385
that in your own mind. Yeah. You have

1212
00:42:12,385 --> 00:42:14,704
to be so careful about that. Yeah. And

1213
00:42:14,704 --> 00:42:16,224
I guess because I just think of, like,

1214
00:42:16,224 --> 00:42:16,885
the divide

1215
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:19,519
that we often is often referenced. You know?

1216
00:42:19,519 --> 00:42:21,039
You see it on social media, and that's

1217
00:42:21,039 --> 00:42:23,440
a whole another thing. But, like, people often

1218
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,920
describe it. We're so divided because of politics.

1219
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,000
And so but I'm thinking, like, well, if

1220
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:29,920
I'm in a relationship, in my marriage, if

1221
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,735
we're divided about something, we should, like, dialogue

1222
00:42:32,735 --> 00:42:34,414
on that and talk more about it. And

1223
00:42:34,414 --> 00:42:35,855
and then we're at the same time, we're

1224
00:42:35,855 --> 00:42:37,775
told, don't talk about it in church or

1225
00:42:37,775 --> 00:42:39,135
those things where I'm like, well, if we

1226
00:42:39,135 --> 00:42:40,735
can't talk about it in church, what happens

1227
00:42:40,735 --> 00:42:42,335
is we go home, we sort of passively

1228
00:42:42,335 --> 00:42:44,015
talk about it on social media, and then

1229
00:42:44,015 --> 00:42:46,369
we sort of secretly hate each other because

1230
00:42:46,369 --> 00:42:49,090
nothing's even being communicated. Right? But are there

1231
00:42:49,090 --> 00:42:51,170
are things in your relationship where you start

1232
00:42:51,170 --> 00:42:52,930
to unpack it, and one or you or

1233
00:42:52,930 --> 00:42:54,690
your spouse will say, this isn't the time

1234
00:42:54,690 --> 00:42:55,970
to do this. Like, we're not ready for

1235
00:42:55,970 --> 00:42:58,054
this. Right. And I think that's the challenge

1236
00:42:58,054 --> 00:42:58,795
in award.

1237
00:42:59,174 --> 00:43:01,335
Like, I guess if you're an award family

1238
00:43:01,335 --> 00:43:04,135
where everyone feels included, everyone feels loved and

1239
00:43:04,135 --> 00:43:06,295
feels like they belong, okay, fine. Like, let's

1240
00:43:06,295 --> 00:43:08,614
dig into the deeper stuff. But I think

1241
00:43:08,614 --> 00:43:10,875
we have to work a lot more on

1242
00:43:11,119 --> 00:43:13,280
like, the love and the belonging and all

1243
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,039
that stuff. Mhmm. Like, I think when it

1244
00:43:15,039 --> 00:43:16,719
comes to politics, that's one of those things

1245
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:18,880
where you say, we just shouldn't touch that.

1246
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:20,719
Like, we're not in a state in our

1247
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,199
relationship where we're ready to go. We're not

1248
00:43:23,199 --> 00:43:24,945
ready to take that step. Yeah. And I

1249
00:43:24,945 --> 00:43:27,525
guess I can think of, like, instances where,

1250
00:43:28,144 --> 00:43:30,144
you know, I've developed a relationship with an

1251
00:43:30,144 --> 00:43:32,465
individual or two where it's gotten to that

1252
00:43:32,465 --> 00:43:34,224
place where we love and respect each other

1253
00:43:34,224 --> 00:43:36,625
enough that we can bring up opposing political

1254
00:43:36,625 --> 00:43:38,489
views and we're not like, well, now we

1255
00:43:38,489 --> 00:43:40,730
can't talk. You know? It it just strengthens

1256
00:43:40,730 --> 00:43:42,489
the relationship, and we're good. Right? Yeah. It's

1257
00:43:42,489 --> 00:43:44,570
kinda weird. Like so I lived in Logan

1258
00:43:44,570 --> 00:43:45,929
for a while, and then I moved back

1259
00:43:45,929 --> 00:43:47,690
to my home ward in Rexburg, but they

1260
00:43:47,690 --> 00:43:49,369
had changed ward boundaries. So there were people

1261
00:43:49,369 --> 00:43:50,730
there who knew me, and there were people

1262
00:43:50,730 --> 00:43:51,949
there who didn't know me.

1263
00:43:52,304 --> 00:43:54,784
And it's interesting because I'm a political scientist.

1264
00:43:54,784 --> 00:43:56,484
So when we talk politics,

1265
00:43:56,784 --> 00:43:58,385
like, people don't know what to make of

1266
00:43:58,385 --> 00:43:59,744
like the things that I say political. And

1267
00:43:59,744 --> 00:44:01,585
I can see that they're very confused because

1268
00:44:01,585 --> 00:44:03,505
oftentimes they're like, but you're faithful in the

1269
00:44:03,505 --> 00:44:05,789
church. Like, why are you doing that about?

1270
00:44:06,110 --> 00:44:08,349
And and June, right? June is pride month,

1271
00:44:08,349 --> 00:44:10,030
so I hang up my pride flag, I

1272
00:44:10,030 --> 00:44:12,429
hang up my Juneteenth flag, and then I

1273
00:44:12,429 --> 00:44:14,349
hang up this flag that says join or

1274
00:44:14,349 --> 00:44:16,449
die. It's back in the original 13 colonies,

1275
00:44:16,510 --> 00:44:18,885
this Benjamin Franklin thing, right? Where it's like,

1276
00:44:19,045 --> 00:44:21,144
we have to come together as a society

1277
00:44:21,364 --> 00:44:23,125
or we're gonna fall apart. Right? So it's

1278
00:44:23,125 --> 00:44:26,244
like me saying, I love our, LGBT members

1279
00:44:26,244 --> 00:44:27,525
of the church. That's why I have a

1280
00:44:27,525 --> 00:44:29,045
pride flag up to let them know we

1281
00:44:29,045 --> 00:44:31,125
love them. I love our African American church

1282
00:44:31,125 --> 00:44:33,339
members. That's why there's the Juneteenth flag. And

1283
00:44:33,339 --> 00:44:34,619
this other flag is for all the rest

1284
00:44:34,619 --> 00:44:36,219
of us that are offended by those flags

1285
00:44:36,219 --> 00:44:38,780
to say, come together. Like, that's what matters.

1286
00:44:38,780 --> 00:44:40,859
But that creates so much dissonance in my

1287
00:44:40,859 --> 00:44:42,859
ward. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And my neighbors

1288
00:44:42,859 --> 00:44:44,539
across the street hung up an American

1289
00:44:44,859 --> 00:44:46,964
a USA flag. Right? And so then all

1290
00:44:46,964 --> 00:44:48,244
of these people are like, are you guys

1291
00:44:48,244 --> 00:44:49,764
feuding with each other that he's got the

1292
00:44:49,764 --> 00:44:51,525
pride flag so you've got the USA flag?

1293
00:44:51,525 --> 00:44:53,144
And it's like, no, it's not.

1294
00:44:53,525 --> 00:44:56,085
But it's so connected. Right? It's so hard

1295
00:44:56,085 --> 00:44:58,164
for people to like And this is a

1296
00:44:58,164 --> 00:45:00,005
conversation you have to have. Like, if I

1297
00:45:00,005 --> 00:45:02,800
hang up a pride flag, the immediate assumption

1298
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,119
is something. Right? Yeah. And unless I know

1299
00:45:05,119 --> 00:45:06,800
them well enough to have a conversation or

1300
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:08,800
unless they know me, it really does, like,

1301
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:10,319
change the way they think about me as

1302
00:45:10,319 --> 00:45:11,760
a member of the Church of Jesus Christ

1303
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:13,440
of Latter day Saints. Yeah. Which is why

1304
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:15,119
it's so hard to have those conversations at

1305
00:45:15,119 --> 00:45:17,105
church. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know if

1306
00:45:17,105 --> 00:45:18,704
your ward's like this. Have you noticed like

1307
00:45:18,704 --> 00:45:19,204
politically,

1308
00:45:19,664 --> 00:45:21,505
people will sort of like form friend groups

1309
00:45:21,505 --> 00:45:22,964
based on where they're at politically?

1310
00:45:23,264 --> 00:45:25,744
And so then it does It actually creates

1311
00:45:25,744 --> 00:45:28,144
division within the ward because they're like, Well,

1312
00:45:28,144 --> 00:45:29,744
of course you said that because you're a

1313
00:45:29,744 --> 00:45:31,344
Republican. Well, of course you said that because

1314
00:45:31,344 --> 00:45:33,210
you had the pride flag hanging up. Like,

1315
00:45:33,210 --> 00:45:35,130
it it it actually hurts our ability to,

1316
00:45:35,130 --> 00:45:38,650
like, see past Yeah. The worldly things. Yeah.

1317
00:45:38,650 --> 00:45:40,650
And that's where and especially from a church

1318
00:45:40,650 --> 00:45:41,949
leader standpoint, like,

1319
00:45:42,250 --> 00:45:44,670
is it better to kinda remain in the,

1320
00:45:44,889 --> 00:45:47,664
like, the the unknown where people don't necessarily

1321
00:45:47,664 --> 00:45:49,105
know where you stand? Because I'm thinking, like,

1322
00:45:49,105 --> 00:45:51,264
even Oh, yeah. On a general level, like,

1323
00:45:51,264 --> 00:45:53,824
you think back to the fifties, sixties, seventies

1324
00:45:53,824 --> 00:45:56,565
where it was very clear where where elder

1325
00:45:56,945 --> 00:45:59,280
elder Benson stood. It was very clear where

1326
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,199
he be bound Brown stood. And they almost

1327
00:46:01,199 --> 00:46:02,880
had these, like, well, I'm gonna share my

1328
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,840
perspective and that perspective. Right? And it created

1329
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,079
some conflict a little bit or some, like,

1330
00:46:08,079 --> 00:46:09,519
how what's going on here? What should I

1331
00:46:09,519 --> 00:46:11,039
make of this? However, at least you knew

1332
00:46:11,039 --> 00:46:13,039
where they're stood. Where now it's more of,

1333
00:46:13,039 --> 00:46:15,235
like, it's a very unified message, which makes

1334
00:46:15,235 --> 00:46:16,375
sense, but nobody

1335
00:46:16,835 --> 00:46:19,875
and so without that clear indicators, we assume,

1336
00:46:19,875 --> 00:46:21,474
oh, that's because they're on our side. Right?

1337
00:46:21,474 --> 00:46:22,755
And then I can talk to somebody on

1338
00:46:22,755 --> 00:46:24,594
the other side. Well, they're actually on our

1339
00:46:24,594 --> 00:46:26,434
side. Well, like, what is going on? You're

1340
00:46:26,434 --> 00:46:28,614
right. Just confuse it almost creates more confusion

1341
00:46:28,675 --> 00:46:30,970
by not putting the flag in your yard.

1342
00:46:30,970 --> 00:46:32,650
So church leaders are often like, I'm not

1343
00:46:32,650 --> 00:46:34,410
putting any flags on my yard, but then

1344
00:46:34,570 --> 00:46:36,410
I don't know. Does that Yeah. Hurt or

1345
00:46:36,410 --> 00:46:38,250
help? You know? Yeah. That's a tough question.

1346
00:46:38,250 --> 00:46:39,530
I had a couple of so I remember

1347
00:46:39,530 --> 00:46:40,970
when I was in Kansas. It was a

1348
00:46:40,970 --> 00:46:43,554
university ward, but it was geographically diverse. And

1349
00:46:43,554 --> 00:46:45,074
so we had people on every end of

1350
00:46:45,074 --> 00:46:46,675
the spectrum, and they would bring up everything

1351
00:46:46,675 --> 00:46:48,034
in church. And so you always knew where

1352
00:46:48,034 --> 00:46:49,554
everyone stood. And it was a little less

1353
00:46:49,554 --> 00:46:50,054
divisive

1354
00:46:50,434 --> 00:46:52,275
because it wasn't the way Rexburg is. Right?

1355
00:46:52,275 --> 00:46:53,954
It wasn't like there are two people on

1356
00:46:53,954 --> 00:46:56,275
one side and everybody else on the other

1357
00:46:56,275 --> 00:46:58,650
side. So it was maybe if you got

1358
00:46:58,650 --> 00:47:00,889
a ward with more diverse views, maybe you

1359
00:47:00,889 --> 00:47:02,650
can do that. But the other thought I

1360
00:47:02,650 --> 00:47:04,670
had is I was thinking about Elder Anderson's

1361
00:47:04,809 --> 00:47:07,130
talk on abortion in the last general conference.

1362
00:47:07,130 --> 00:47:09,690
Mhmm. He says in that talk, this isn't

1363
00:47:09,690 --> 00:47:12,409
about politics, this is about morality. But if

1364
00:47:12,409 --> 00:47:13,389
you talk to people,

1365
00:47:14,054 --> 00:47:16,375
like, everybody saw that talk through a political

1366
00:47:16,375 --> 00:47:18,694
lens. Not everybody, but, like, my kids. Right?

1367
00:47:18,694 --> 00:47:20,614
They're like, I can't believe he's talking about

1368
00:47:20,614 --> 00:47:22,934
abortion and women's rights and all. Like, he's

1369
00:47:22,934 --> 00:47:25,014
not talking about the politics of abortion. He's

1370
00:47:25,014 --> 00:47:26,954
talking about the moral principle of abortion.

1371
00:47:27,349 --> 00:47:29,030
And by the way, you could read that

1372
00:47:29,030 --> 00:47:31,269
talk and you could support Democrats because there's

1373
00:47:31,269 --> 00:47:33,449
things in that talk that Democrats are supporting.

1374
00:47:33,590 --> 00:47:34,949
Or you could read that talk and support

1375
00:47:34,949 --> 00:47:36,949
Republicans because there's things that the Republicans are

1376
00:47:36,949 --> 00:47:39,429
doing. Like, there was nothing clearly partisan at

1377
00:47:39,429 --> 00:47:41,050
all in what he said in that talk.

1378
00:47:41,224 --> 00:47:42,985
But you can't even bring up the issue

1379
00:47:42,985 --> 00:47:47,144
in church without filtering through politics. Right. Yeah.

1380
00:47:47,144 --> 00:47:49,065
And that's and to me, that's more of

1381
00:47:49,065 --> 00:47:51,545
the broader society to blame than necessarily the

1382
00:47:51,545 --> 00:47:53,945
church because the it's the only time we

1383
00:47:53,945 --> 00:47:56,425
hear about politics in the broader society is

1384
00:47:56,425 --> 00:47:58,579
in a political context. And so it's almost

1385
00:47:58,820 --> 00:48:00,980
we almost can't process it outside of that

1386
00:48:00,980 --> 00:48:02,660
when it's tried to talk about in a

1387
00:48:02,660 --> 00:48:04,360
religious context or a moral context.

1388
00:48:04,739 --> 00:48:06,340
Right? So then as a leader, you have

1389
00:48:06,340 --> 00:48:07,860
to be aware of that. Yeah. You have

1390
00:48:07,860 --> 00:48:09,940
to know that if you stand up to

1391
00:48:09,940 --> 00:48:11,559
talk about the morality of abortion,

1392
00:48:11,914 --> 00:48:13,594
there are people in that congregation that will

1393
00:48:13,594 --> 00:48:15,355
not be able to, like, take off their

1394
00:48:15,355 --> 00:48:17,755
partisan lens when they hear that. Yeah. And

1395
00:48:17,755 --> 00:48:19,434
so that's gonna have other effect. So I'm

1396
00:48:19,434 --> 00:48:21,114
not saying you shouldn't do it. I'm just

1397
00:48:21,114 --> 00:48:22,635
saying you like I had to as a

1398
00:48:22,635 --> 00:48:25,034
professor, you just have to recognize, like, what

1399
00:48:25,034 --> 00:48:27,410
baggage comes along with that. And if you

1400
00:48:27,410 --> 00:48:29,170
wanna bring that up, you have to be

1401
00:48:29,170 --> 00:48:31,329
really gentle in, like, how you take those

1402
00:48:31,329 --> 00:48:33,650
layers down because you don't wanna destroy faith.

1403
00:48:33,650 --> 00:48:35,570
And you really it's hard to say like

1404
00:48:35,570 --> 00:48:37,570
that you it's hard to imagine that I

1405
00:48:37,570 --> 00:48:39,349
could destroy somebody's faith

1406
00:48:39,655 --> 00:48:41,894
by supporting, I don't know, Mike Lee in

1407
00:48:41,894 --> 00:48:43,994
church, right? But you actually can.

1408
00:48:44,295 --> 00:48:46,454
Because for some people, those things are so

1409
00:48:46,454 --> 00:48:49,095
closely tied together that you talking about how

1410
00:48:49,095 --> 00:48:50,934
much you love Mike Lee is going to

1411
00:48:50,934 --> 00:48:52,375
sound to them like you're talking about how

1412
00:48:52,375 --> 00:48:54,375
much you love Satan, right? And they're like,

1413
00:48:54,375 --> 00:48:56,420
How does somebody allow that to happen in

1414
00:48:56,420 --> 00:48:56,920
church?

1415
00:48:58,339 --> 00:49:00,659
It's it's weird. And to me, I guess

1416
00:49:00,659 --> 00:49:03,079
that's the the conundrum is, like,

1417
00:49:03,460 --> 00:49:05,699
then, therefore, we just don't talk about any

1418
00:49:05,699 --> 00:49:07,719
of it as if that's solving a problem.

1419
00:49:07,859 --> 00:49:09,684
Right? Or, again, it goes back to your

1420
00:49:09,684 --> 00:49:11,364
list already. Yeah. Yeah. I I guess I

1421
00:49:11,364 --> 00:49:12,804
would say I would say it's like this.

1422
00:49:12,804 --> 00:49:14,804
There's things we talk about in elders quorum

1423
00:49:14,804 --> 00:49:17,125
that we don't talk about in sunbeams. Right?

1424
00:49:17,125 --> 00:49:19,445
And there's things we talk about in there's

1425
00:49:19,445 --> 00:49:21,385
just a time and place for things.

1426
00:49:21,730 --> 00:49:23,650
I would say award council could be a

1427
00:49:23,650 --> 00:49:25,570
wonderful time to have a discussion about something

1428
00:49:25,570 --> 00:49:28,050
like that. Mhmm. Because it that's a form

1429
00:49:28,050 --> 00:49:29,650
in which if it mattered, you could do

1430
00:49:29,650 --> 00:49:31,170
it in the right way. Mhmm. But a

1431
00:49:31,170 --> 00:49:33,090
Sunday school lesson where somebody's gonna raise their

1432
00:49:33,090 --> 00:49:34,449
hand and say one thing and someone's gonna

1433
00:49:34,449 --> 00:49:35,890
raise their hand and say another thing, and

1434
00:49:35,890 --> 00:49:37,715
then we're gonna just have, like, crusty feelings

1435
00:49:37,715 --> 00:49:39,635
about it at the end. Like Yeah. Doesn't

1436
00:49:39,635 --> 00:49:41,235
seem in the right place. Or a sacrament

1437
00:49:41,235 --> 00:49:43,494
meeting talk where there's no chance for rebuttal,

1438
00:49:43,635 --> 00:49:45,474
and then there's like, did the bishop stand

1439
00:49:45,474 --> 00:49:47,474
up and correct them afterwards? And then if

1440
00:49:47,474 --> 00:49:48,994
the bishop does stand up and correct them,

1441
00:49:48,994 --> 00:49:50,755
then what what message that sends. Right? So

1442
00:49:50,755 --> 00:49:52,930
there's just time and place. Well, this is

1443
00:49:52,930 --> 00:49:54,390
tough because, you know, like, elder

1444
00:49:54,930 --> 00:49:58,130
Anderson is trying to stand for a belief

1445
00:49:58,130 --> 00:50:00,210
we hold dearly. Right? And I kinda feel

1446
00:50:00,210 --> 00:50:01,489
like a lot of these things get pulled

1447
00:50:01,489 --> 00:50:03,269
into these political lenses.

1448
00:50:03,804 --> 00:50:06,284
Like, for instance, the family proclamation has suddenly

1449
00:50:06,284 --> 00:50:07,765
kinda been pulled in there where For sure.

1450
00:50:07,885 --> 00:50:10,605
It's like we're stating a very clear beliefs.

1451
00:50:10,605 --> 00:50:12,284
But if if you have a talk in

1452
00:50:12,284 --> 00:50:14,765
sacrament about the family proclamation, sometimes people are

1453
00:50:14,765 --> 00:50:16,445
like, wait a minute. What what's going on

1454
00:50:16,445 --> 00:50:18,559
here? And so it's it's tricky because it's

1455
00:50:18,559 --> 00:50:20,400
like we should talk about those things in

1456
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:22,400
my opinion, but, again, it's about the being

1457
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:24,480
delicate, being some will see this only through

1458
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:26,079
a political lens, and we have to maybe

1459
00:50:26,079 --> 00:50:27,780
say, those of you that are suddenly

1460
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:31,760
processing this through, you know, you're feeling some

1461
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:34,214
emotion come up or, like, just step back.

1462
00:50:34,214 --> 00:50:36,694
Let's just talk about these eternal truths as

1463
00:50:36,694 --> 00:50:37,974
we believe them. You know? I don't know.

1464
00:50:37,974 --> 00:50:39,654
Yeah. I think as a leader, rather than

1465
00:50:39,654 --> 00:50:41,815
assigning a topic, the proclamation to the world

1466
00:50:41,815 --> 00:50:43,335
on the family Mhmm. I would just choose

1467
00:50:43,335 --> 00:50:45,094
a part of it. Just choose one part

1468
00:50:45,094 --> 00:50:47,159
of it, and then it will not turn

1469
00:50:47,159 --> 00:50:49,880
on those partisan lenses. Yeah. Even if it's

1470
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:52,359
a controversial part. Right? It doesn't sound but

1471
00:50:52,359 --> 00:50:54,199
even if it's marriages between a man and

1472
00:50:54,199 --> 00:50:56,359
a woman. Right? Like, that's an important doctrine

1473
00:50:56,359 --> 00:50:57,019
to teach.

1474
00:50:57,320 --> 00:50:59,480
That might turn on some partisan lenses or

1475
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:01,505
whatever. But it really is I guess the

1476
00:51:01,505 --> 00:51:02,785
way I would say it is this, it's

1477
00:51:02,785 --> 00:51:04,965
really hard to get upset

1478
00:51:05,345 --> 00:51:07,985
at pure doctrine. Mhmm. Right? The Holy Ghost

1479
00:51:07,985 --> 00:51:10,005
will be there to testify when you're teaching

1480
00:51:10,065 --> 00:51:12,305
truth. And so the closer you can stay

1481
00:51:12,305 --> 00:51:13,590
to the trunk of the tree,

1482
00:51:14,150 --> 00:51:15,750
then the the better you're off you're gonna

1483
00:51:15,750 --> 00:51:17,510
be. And so if I say talk about

1484
00:51:17,510 --> 00:51:19,430
the proclamation, you don't know where they're gonna

1485
00:51:19,430 --> 00:51:20,630
go with that. Right? But if you say

1486
00:51:20,630 --> 00:51:22,390
here's a truth in the proclamation that I

1487
00:51:22,390 --> 00:51:24,070
want you to focus on, then that keeps

1488
00:51:24,070 --> 00:51:25,590
them closer to the trunk of the tree.

1489
00:51:25,590 --> 00:51:28,065
Right. So let's just wrap this up with,

1490
00:51:28,065 --> 00:51:29,824
like, give us you're standing in front of

1491
00:51:29,824 --> 00:51:32,144
a room of church leaders with these concepts.

1492
00:51:32,144 --> 00:51:33,985
I I guess some principles that come to

1493
00:51:33,985 --> 00:51:36,465
mind is, yes, people leave the church. They

1494
00:51:36,465 --> 00:51:39,559
leave our religion. That doesn't necessarily mean they

1495
00:51:39,559 --> 00:51:41,980
are you know, we throw the word damnation

1496
00:51:42,039 --> 00:51:44,519
around as as in you're stopped. Like, there

1497
00:51:44,519 --> 00:51:45,420
will still be

1498
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:46,300
sanctification,

1499
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:49,400
transformation that can happen to them and, of

1500
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:52,460
course, will always be just like god encouraging

1501
00:51:52,519 --> 00:51:54,914
them back to his covenant path. But any

1502
00:51:54,914 --> 00:51:56,835
other like, what does this all mean for

1503
00:51:56,835 --> 00:51:58,515
church leaders if you're in setting in front

1504
00:51:58,515 --> 00:51:59,494
of a room of leaders?

1505
00:51:59,795 --> 00:52:01,635
Yeah. What I think it means is when

1506
00:52:01,635 --> 00:52:02,775
I look at the scores,

1507
00:52:03,235 --> 00:52:05,315
we are doing a really good job teaching

1508
00:52:05,315 --> 00:52:05,815
transcendence.

1509
00:52:06,195 --> 00:52:08,195
We're doing a great job of teaching people

1510
00:52:08,195 --> 00:52:09,869
you need to have a connection with God.

1511
00:52:09,950 --> 00:52:12,349
We're doing a worse job, a not so

1512
00:52:12,349 --> 00:52:13,570
good a job of teaching

1513
00:52:13,950 --> 00:52:15,090
love for our neighbors.

1514
00:52:15,390 --> 00:52:17,570
We're doing not so great at teaching people

1515
00:52:18,910 --> 00:52:19,410
humility

1516
00:52:20,510 --> 00:52:23,230
and this idea of avoiding gluttony and those

1517
00:52:23,230 --> 00:52:24,829
sorts of things. I think that it points

1518
00:52:24,829 --> 00:52:26,244
to gospel principles

1519
00:52:26,785 --> 00:52:29,285
that we emphasize maybe not quite so much.

1520
00:52:29,985 --> 00:52:31,664
And for me, if I were a church

1521
00:52:31,664 --> 00:52:33,105
leader, what I would take away from this

1522
00:52:33,105 --> 00:52:35,285
is we should focus more on

1523
00:52:35,664 --> 00:52:37,445
the gospel of Jesus Christ

1524
00:52:37,905 --> 00:52:40,789
more than the steps that but the gospel

1525
00:52:40,789 --> 00:52:42,469
of Jesus Christ is so much more than

1526
00:52:42,469 --> 00:52:44,550
the steps. Right? So I'd say, let's focus

1527
00:52:44,550 --> 00:52:45,769
on, like, the holistic

1528
00:52:46,150 --> 00:52:46,650
gospel

1529
00:52:46,949 --> 00:52:48,949
and weigh less on, are you doing this,

1530
00:52:48,949 --> 00:52:51,050
are you doing that sort of things. Yeah.

1531
00:52:51,190 --> 00:52:52,469
The last question I have for you is

1532
00:52:52,469 --> 00:52:53,989
as well, first of all, if people do

1533
00:52:53,989 --> 00:52:55,289
wanna check out the book,

1534
00:52:55,844 --> 00:52:57,684
is it, like, is it an easy read?

1535
00:52:57,684 --> 00:53:00,244
Are we talking academics? It's an academic book.

1536
00:53:00,244 --> 00:53:03,045
I really tried to make it accessible to

1537
00:53:03,045 --> 00:53:05,284
the general public. My sister Melissa is not

1538
00:53:05,284 --> 00:53:06,425
gonna read the book.

1539
00:53:07,364 --> 00:53:10,164
Bless her heart. Yeah. And it's okay. Honestly,

1540
00:53:10,164 --> 00:53:12,480
like, it is a tough read. It's something

1541
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:15,920
you and it's expensive, but, there's Like all

1542
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:18,400
academic books. Right? Right. You can check it

1543
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:20,079
out from the BYU library. You can check

1544
00:53:20,079 --> 00:53:22,079
it out from any academic library. But we'll

1545
00:53:22,079 --> 00:53:23,519
put a discount code in that you can

1546
00:53:23,519 --> 00:53:25,280
get it for 50% off if you want.

1547
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:27,235
But I think it's worth a read. You

1548
00:53:27,235 --> 00:53:29,074
can see all the questions in there, and,

1549
00:53:29,315 --> 00:53:30,375
there's more details.

1550
00:53:30,755 --> 00:53:32,594
But it's hard for me to know. So

1551
00:53:32,594 --> 00:53:34,355
this is weird, Kurt. I write books, but

1552
00:53:34,355 --> 00:53:36,855
I don't read books. So I don't know

1553
00:53:36,994 --> 00:53:38,594
if it's a good read or a bad

1554
00:53:38,594 --> 00:53:39,094
read.

1555
00:53:39,795 --> 00:53:42,269
I enjoyed it. Oh, good. Good. And I

1556
00:53:42,269 --> 00:53:45,309
know you have another project a podcast project

1557
00:53:45,309 --> 00:53:47,630
that you get on and discuss fascinating topics

1558
00:53:47,630 --> 00:53:49,390
like this. Yeah. The latter day lens. So

1559
00:53:49,390 --> 00:53:50,670
it's me. It used to be two other

1560
00:53:50,670 --> 00:53:52,670
mission buddies, but now it's just a a

1561
00:53:52,670 --> 00:53:54,989
collection of hosts who are faithful members of

1562
00:53:54,989 --> 00:53:57,244
the church. We disagree about politics.

1563
00:53:57,545 --> 00:54:00,025
So we'll argue about, like, these sorts of

1564
00:54:00,105 --> 00:54:01,545
well, so Kurt says we should be able

1565
00:54:01,545 --> 00:54:03,944
to, like, fight about politics without destroying our

1566
00:54:03,944 --> 00:54:05,704
faith. I think we can do that there

1567
00:54:05,704 --> 00:54:07,625
because we have a relationship. And so that's

1568
00:54:07,625 --> 00:54:09,339
what we try to do. Like, we go

1569
00:54:09,339 --> 00:54:10,940
on. We we talk about the issues of

1570
00:54:10,940 --> 00:54:13,420
the day. We disagree. Sometimes we agree. But

1571
00:54:13,420 --> 00:54:15,099
in the end, it's faith promoting. It's all

1572
00:54:15,099 --> 00:54:17,579
about building faith in Christ while talking about

1573
00:54:17,579 --> 00:54:18,639
contentious issues.

1574
00:54:18,940 --> 00:54:20,619
Love it. Last question I have for you

1575
00:54:20,619 --> 00:54:22,425
is as you reflect on your time, I

1576
00:54:22,425 --> 00:54:23,545
want you to go back to your time

1577
00:54:23,545 --> 00:54:25,224
as a as a church leader Mhmm. As

1578
00:54:25,224 --> 00:54:27,144
a bishop. How has being a a bishop,

1579
00:54:27,144 --> 00:54:28,744
a church leader, helped you become a better

1580
00:54:28,744 --> 00:54:30,285
follower of Jesus Christ?

1581
00:54:30,585 --> 00:54:33,224
So it's really interesting. Like, I was called

1582
00:54:33,224 --> 00:54:35,139
to be a bishop at a time in

1583
00:54:35,139 --> 00:54:37,059
my life when my family was about to

1584
00:54:37,059 --> 00:54:39,380
fall apart and I didn't even know it.

1585
00:54:39,380 --> 00:54:42,019
And while I was a bishop, like, my

1586
00:54:42,019 --> 00:54:43,400
family was crumbling.

1587
00:54:44,099 --> 00:54:45,480
And looking back,

1588
00:54:46,099 --> 00:54:47,940
the things I learned as a bishop gave

1589
00:54:47,940 --> 00:54:49,719
me the tools I needed to

1590
00:54:50,034 --> 00:54:51,954
bring my family back together, to put all

1591
00:54:51,954 --> 00:54:54,514
the pieces back together again. Ultimately, I know

1592
00:54:54,514 --> 00:54:57,014
that it was Jesus Christ that saved us.

1593
00:54:57,235 --> 00:54:59,394
I know that, like, we never could have

1594
00:54:59,394 --> 00:55:00,914
done that without his help. I have a

1595
00:55:00,914 --> 00:55:02,135
painting in my office

1596
00:55:02,610 --> 00:55:04,050
that everybody laughs at because they think it's

1597
00:55:04,050 --> 00:55:05,730
an ugly painting, but I'm like, but this

1598
00:55:05,730 --> 00:55:07,110
painting is my family

1599
00:55:07,410 --> 00:55:09,650
as we were falling apart and didn't even

1600
00:55:09,650 --> 00:55:11,570
know it. And it's always a reminder of,

1601
00:55:11,570 --> 00:55:13,570
like, where we were and how it just

1602
00:55:13,570 --> 00:55:15,570
crumbled and then how Christ put it back

1603
00:55:15,570 --> 00:55:17,864
together again. So being a bishop was one

1604
00:55:17,864 --> 00:55:19,224
of the hardest things I ever did, but

1605
00:55:19,224 --> 00:55:20,824
it it really it taught me what I

1606
00:55:20,824 --> 00:55:22,905
needed to know to do my part in

1607
00:55:22,905 --> 00:55:24,765
putting our family back together again.

1608
00:55:31,785 --> 00:55:34,079
That concludes this episode of the Leading Saints

1609
00:55:34,079 --> 00:55:35,920
podcast. We'd love to hear from you about

1610
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:37,760
your questions or thoughts or comments. You can

1611
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:40,099
either leave a comment on the, post related

1612
00:55:40,159 --> 00:55:42,719
to this episode at leadingsaints.org,

1613
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:44,980
or go to leadingsaints.org/contact

1614
00:55:45,119 --> 00:55:47,474
and send us your perspective or questions. If

1615
00:55:47,474 --> 00:55:49,315
there's other episodes or topics you'd like to

1616
00:55:49,315 --> 00:55:51,235
hear on the Leading Saints podcast, go to

1617
00:55:51,235 --> 00:55:52,914
leadingsaints.org/contact

1618
00:55:52,914 --> 00:55:55,235
and share with us the information there. And

1619
00:55:55,235 --> 00:55:56,994
we would love for you to share this

1620
00:55:56,994 --> 00:55:59,155
with any individual you think this would apply

1621
00:55:59,155 --> 00:56:01,474
to, especially maybe individuals in your ward council

1622
00:56:01,474 --> 00:56:03,719
or other leaders that you may know who

1623
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:06,300
would really appreciate the perspectives that we discussed.

1624
00:56:16,074 --> 00:56:18,554
It came as a result of the position

1625
00:56:18,554 --> 00:56:21,614
of leadership which was imposed upon us

1626
00:56:22,074 --> 00:56:24,815
by the God of heaven who brought forth

1627
00:56:24,954 --> 00:56:28,335
a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

1628
00:56:29,159 --> 00:56:30,059
When the declaration

1629
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:32,460
was made concerning the

1630
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,719
only true and living Church upon the face

1631
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:36,539
of the earth,

1632
00:56:37,079 --> 00:56:39,819
we were immediately put in a position of

1633
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:40,460
loneliness,

1634
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:41,339
the loneliness

1635
00:56:41,639 --> 00:56:42,299
of leadership

1636
00:56:43,035 --> 00:56:45,935
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,

1637
00:56:46,715 --> 00:56:49,195
and to which we must face up with

1638
00:56:49,195 --> 00:56:50,655
boldness and courage

1639
00:56:51,275 --> 00:56:52,015
and ability.