1
00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:04,559
Hey. Welcome to the Leading Saints podcast. Now

2
00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:06,080
for many of you that are brand new,

3
00:00:06,399 --> 00:00:08,400
to Leading Saints, it's important that you know

4
00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:10,740
that Leading Saints is a nonprofit organization,

5
00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:13,804
five zero one c three, dedicated to helping

6
00:00:13,804 --> 00:00:14,705
Latter day Saints

7
00:00:15,005 --> 00:00:17,004
be better prepared to lead, and we do

8
00:00:17,004 --> 00:00:17,744
that through

9
00:00:18,045 --> 00:00:20,765
content creation. You get so much positive feedback

10
00:00:20,765 --> 00:00:23,564
on the podcast, our virtual conferences, the articles

11
00:00:23,564 --> 00:00:24,384
on our website.

12
00:00:24,765 --> 00:00:27,664
You definitely gotta check it out at leadingsaints.org.

13
00:00:27,804 --> 00:00:29,699
And on their homepage at leading saints that

14
00:00:29,699 --> 00:00:31,620
are, you can actually find the top six

15
00:00:31,620 --> 00:00:34,179
most downloaded episodes to the podcast. So if

16
00:00:34,179 --> 00:00:35,939
you're new, like the content, want to jump

17
00:00:35,939 --> 00:00:38,659
into some of our most popular episodes head

18
00:00:38,659 --> 00:00:40,439
there after you listened to this.

19
00:00:45,335 --> 00:00:47,495
Anthony Sweat has easily become one of my

20
00:00:47,495 --> 00:00:50,215
favorite BYU professors to interview. He's been on

21
00:00:50,215 --> 00:00:52,375
the podcast several times, and he also has

22
00:00:52,375 --> 00:00:55,435
a remarkable presentation about ambiguity of doctrine

23
00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,880
in our questioning saints virtual library. He discusses

24
00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:01,679
healthy and unhealthy ways we approach doctrine, how

25
00:01:01,679 --> 00:01:04,239
to help others reconcile doctrine they find difficult

26
00:01:04,239 --> 00:01:05,379
to believe especially

27
00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:07,520
when we don't know much about it. You

28
00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:09,945
can watch professor Sweat's entire interview in the

29
00:01:09,945 --> 00:01:11,405
Questioning Saints library

30
00:01:11,865 --> 00:01:14,605
by going to leadingsaints.org/fourteen.

31
00:01:14,745 --> 00:01:16,745
This will give you access for fourteen days

32
00:01:16,745 --> 00:01:18,844
at no cost to watch this presentation.

33
00:01:19,225 --> 00:01:21,305
You'll be better prepared as a leader when

34
00:01:21,305 --> 00:01:21,810
you do.

35
00:01:26,450 --> 00:01:29,009
Welcome back to another episode of Leading Saints

36
00:01:29,009 --> 00:01:31,409
where this is a part two episode with

37
00:01:31,409 --> 00:01:33,969
Jeff Strong. Now if you haven't watched the

38
00:01:33,969 --> 00:01:35,810
part one, it'd probably be worth your time

39
00:01:35,810 --> 00:01:38,225
to go back. It's a phenomenal episode. We

40
00:01:38,225 --> 00:01:40,704
got such great feedback from that, and we

41
00:01:40,704 --> 00:01:42,385
were planning to do a part two. And

42
00:01:42,385 --> 00:01:44,064
I was even more excited to do a

43
00:01:44,064 --> 00:01:46,305
part two with Jeff because of how well

44
00:01:46,305 --> 00:01:48,305
that first discussion went. And this is a

45
00:01:48,305 --> 00:01:50,225
longer one, but I think you'll appreciate every

46
00:01:50,225 --> 00:01:51,745
minute of it. There's a lot here to

47
00:01:51,745 --> 00:01:54,269
consider. We talk more about the tension that

48
00:01:54,269 --> 00:01:56,769
we experience in our faith tradition, but more

49
00:01:56,909 --> 00:01:59,950
from our differences. And, obviously, we're different people.

50
00:01:59,950 --> 00:02:01,950
God made us different, and we have different

51
00:02:01,950 --> 00:02:04,829
perspectives and approaches and everything from our our

52
00:02:04,829 --> 00:02:07,094
DNA to our upbringing to how we approach

53
00:02:07,094 --> 00:02:09,335
the gospel, how we understand the gospel, and

54
00:02:09,335 --> 00:02:11,655
everything in between. And we all show up

55
00:02:11,655 --> 00:02:13,574
on Sunday at the same place with different

56
00:02:13,574 --> 00:02:15,594
perspectives and different experiences.

57
00:02:16,134 --> 00:02:18,534
So how do we reconcile all that? Is

58
00:02:18,534 --> 00:02:21,335
it a goal of bringing everybody into the

59
00:02:21,335 --> 00:02:23,550
same frame so that we all see the

60
00:02:23,550 --> 00:02:25,389
world the same way, we all understand the

61
00:02:25,389 --> 00:02:27,550
gospel the same way, we all interact with

62
00:02:27,550 --> 00:02:30,450
the covenants and traditions the same way, or

63
00:02:30,510 --> 00:02:32,349
do we embrace the differences? And how do

64
00:02:32,349 --> 00:02:34,610
we do that and still protect the doctrine?

65
00:02:34,754 --> 00:02:36,514
How do we do that and still encourage

66
00:02:36,514 --> 00:02:39,155
seeking and cultivating and community? Right? So we

67
00:02:39,155 --> 00:02:41,814
talk about six different belief mindsets,

68
00:02:42,355 --> 00:02:44,835
these different segments that, you know, they're not

69
00:02:44,835 --> 00:02:47,555
perfect segments, but you'll probably resonate with one

70
00:02:47,555 --> 00:02:49,794
more than another or two or three more

71
00:02:49,794 --> 00:02:51,370
than another. And I think there's a lot

72
00:02:51,370 --> 00:02:54,090
we can learn from understanding the different people

73
00:02:54,090 --> 00:02:56,430
that come into church. Now the interesting

74
00:02:56,889 --> 00:02:58,270
core of this discussion

75
00:02:58,889 --> 00:03:00,110
comes to the fact that

76
00:03:00,409 --> 00:03:01,370
90%

77
00:03:01,370 --> 00:03:04,010
of church leaders come from only one of

78
00:03:04,010 --> 00:03:04,830
these segments.

79
00:03:05,194 --> 00:03:07,115
Now why is that? What is it with

80
00:03:07,115 --> 00:03:10,175
this mindset that draws leaders there or that

81
00:03:10,314 --> 00:03:10,814
perpetuates

82
00:03:11,435 --> 00:03:14,395
individuals choosing leaders or, you know, these leaders

83
00:03:14,395 --> 00:03:16,955
being called to these leadership roles? And many

84
00:03:16,955 --> 00:03:19,230
of you, like myself, are probably in this

85
00:03:19,230 --> 00:03:21,710
segment. So we explore the differences, how we

86
00:03:21,710 --> 00:03:24,370
can stimulate more community, the body of Christ,

87
00:03:24,669 --> 00:03:26,270
and what we can learn just about the

88
00:03:26,270 --> 00:03:27,810
human spirit and relationship

89
00:03:28,110 --> 00:03:30,430
when we consider the different segments that show

90
00:03:30,430 --> 00:03:32,349
up to church. So I think you'll appreciate

91
00:03:32,349 --> 00:03:35,264
this. Here's my interview part two with Jeff

92
00:03:35,264 --> 00:03:35,764
Strong.

93
00:03:45,550 --> 00:03:47,469
Jeff, we're back. Part two. There's so much

94
00:03:47,469 --> 00:03:49,229
to talk about. I mean, there probably won't

95
00:03:49,229 --> 00:03:50,509
be a part three, four, or five, but

96
00:03:50,509 --> 00:03:52,189
I'm sure there'll be more conversations in the

97
00:03:52,189 --> 00:03:53,949
future. I hope so. I got a lot

98
00:03:53,949 --> 00:03:54,770
of great feedback

99
00:03:55,229 --> 00:03:56,530
from our first conversation.

100
00:03:56,830 --> 00:03:58,430
I think it's just refreshing to talk about

101
00:03:58,430 --> 00:04:00,289
these things even though that it's not maybe

102
00:04:00,705 --> 00:04:03,104
the perfect sunshine and rainbows news at all

103
00:04:03,104 --> 00:04:05,104
times that everything's you know, when you when

104
00:04:05,104 --> 00:04:06,784
we look at data, we want it to

105
00:04:06,784 --> 00:04:08,944
reflect really really well on us. So maybe

106
00:04:08,944 --> 00:04:11,264
just give us a recap of what journey

107
00:04:11,264 --> 00:04:13,264
we went on. I would encourage people listening

108
00:04:13,264 --> 00:04:14,705
to part two. If they haven't listened to

109
00:04:14,705 --> 00:04:16,289
part one, go listen to that. But maybe

110
00:04:16,289 --> 00:04:18,370
give us a recap to bring everybody back

111
00:04:18,370 --> 00:04:20,449
up to speed. That sounds good. Well, first

112
00:04:20,449 --> 00:04:22,529
of all, thank you for Yeah. Bringing me

113
00:04:22,529 --> 00:04:23,970
back. Sure. You know, it's always good to

114
00:04:23,970 --> 00:04:26,629
be with you. So, you know, really briefly,

115
00:04:27,089 --> 00:04:27,909
last episode,

116
00:04:28,289 --> 00:04:30,384
I I mentioned that we've done this huge

117
00:04:30,384 --> 00:04:31,365
study on disaffiliation.

118
00:04:31,745 --> 00:04:34,224
We're not talking about disaffiliation yet. We're talking

119
00:04:34,224 --> 00:04:35,284
about other things,

120
00:04:35,824 --> 00:04:38,724
primarily people's experience in the church community.

121
00:04:39,104 --> 00:04:41,344
So last episode, we talked about what people

122
00:04:41,344 --> 00:04:44,439
love about the church, what people feel conflict

123
00:04:44,439 --> 00:04:46,379
in in regard to their church experience,

124
00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:48,759
and sort of this important theme, which we're

125
00:04:48,759 --> 00:04:50,540
gonna run with a little bit today

126
00:04:50,919 --> 00:04:53,639
of tension, tension in my church experience. Last

127
00:04:53,639 --> 00:04:55,800
week, it was the tension between tradition and

128
00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:57,639
change. We talked about Fiddler on the Roof,

129
00:04:57,639 --> 00:04:58,300
for example.

130
00:04:58,724 --> 00:05:01,204
This week, it's gonna be tension caused by

131
00:05:01,204 --> 00:05:01,944
our differences.

132
00:05:02,245 --> 00:05:04,404
Yeah. And, you know, we didn't suspense a

133
00:05:04,404 --> 00:05:07,125
lot of advice or, you know, suggestions. And

134
00:05:07,125 --> 00:05:08,664
so we'll do a little bit more,

135
00:05:09,044 --> 00:05:10,805
I think, at the end of today's episode,

136
00:05:10,805 --> 00:05:12,884
but that's really where we were last week.

137
00:05:12,884 --> 00:05:15,360
Yeah. And recognizing that we're different, I mean,

138
00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:16,960
that's okay. Right? Because we are different. It

139
00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:18,266
is. We're not supposed to be the same.

140
00:05:18,266 --> 00:05:20,319
It is it is absolutely okay. I think

141
00:05:20,319 --> 00:05:23,199
sometimes it feels more comfortable when we're more

142
00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,474
when we're similar. Right? Well, you know, what

143
00:05:26,474 --> 00:05:28,074
are they what's the old saying? Birds of

144
00:05:28,074 --> 00:05:30,074
a feather flock together? That's right. And there's

145
00:05:30,074 --> 00:05:32,154
a reason they do. Yeah. And so, yeah,

146
00:05:32,154 --> 00:05:35,214
there is something very comfortable and reassuring about

147
00:05:35,514 --> 00:05:38,574
being around people that are like minded. Mhmm.

148
00:05:39,050 --> 00:05:42,189
That just isn't the community of Christ. Yeah.

149
00:05:42,250 --> 00:05:44,270
And so we get to deal with that

150
00:05:44,490 --> 00:05:46,889
Yeah. Opportunity. And I would say, like, if

151
00:05:46,889 --> 00:05:50,330
you, you know, randomly selected the average bishop

152
00:05:50,330 --> 00:05:52,250
or church leader or, you know, which is

153
00:05:52,250 --> 00:05:53,654
often our audience or

154
00:05:54,375 --> 00:05:55,595
or, you know, lifelong

155
00:05:56,134 --> 00:05:58,615
church attending member, they say, I wanna be

156
00:05:58,615 --> 00:06:01,035
okay with differences. I I want all types

157
00:06:01,095 --> 00:06:03,014
to come join us in the pews on

158
00:06:03,014 --> 00:06:05,254
Sunday. And Yeah. And that's the finicky thing

159
00:06:05,254 --> 00:06:07,939
about culture is that even though we're striving

160
00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,240
for a certain ideal, sometimes it it just

161
00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:12,800
gets messy because we live in mortality. Yeah.

162
00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,120
No. I I think that's really well said.

163
00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:16,639
You know, one of the things I loved

164
00:06:16,639 --> 00:06:18,560
about being a mission president is we had

165
00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:20,899
over 700 missionaries over three years,

166
00:06:21,235 --> 00:06:23,895
how different they were. Yeah. And so

167
00:06:24,355 --> 00:06:27,415
if there were any impulses of homogeneity

168
00:06:27,715 --> 00:06:30,275
or conformity in my heart when I went,

169
00:06:30,275 --> 00:06:32,355
they were pretty much gone by the time

170
00:06:32,355 --> 00:06:34,759
I came home. Yeah. And some of my

171
00:06:34,759 --> 00:06:37,720
absolute favorite missionaries were the ones that just

172
00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:39,960
didn't fit the mold. Mhmm. And I learned

173
00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:41,879
so much from them. Yeah. And there is

174
00:06:41,879 --> 00:06:44,120
power in so much learning as we talked

175
00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,040
about last time of going to that point

176
00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,439
of tension rather than trying to relieve the

177
00:06:48,439 --> 00:06:50,365
tension or make it all the same so

178
00:06:50,365 --> 00:06:51,584
that there's no more tension?

179
00:06:51,964 --> 00:06:52,944
Yeah. The danger

180
00:06:53,404 --> 00:06:55,185
look. When you experience tension,

181
00:06:55,564 --> 00:06:57,324
you've got a couple of options. One is

182
00:06:57,324 --> 00:07:00,125
you run from it. Mhmm. That's not you

183
00:07:00,125 --> 00:07:02,685
know, sometimes it's so severe that's kinda what

184
00:07:02,685 --> 00:07:04,709
you need to do. And so I respect

185
00:07:04,709 --> 00:07:06,550
people that make that choice when they need

186
00:07:06,550 --> 00:07:07,050
to.

187
00:07:07,589 --> 00:07:09,990
But in the end, it it separates you

188
00:07:09,990 --> 00:07:11,990
from the community and the cause of the

189
00:07:11,990 --> 00:07:14,009
tension. The other is that, you know, you

190
00:07:14,230 --> 00:07:16,490
try to drive the tension out through conformity.

191
00:07:17,029 --> 00:07:19,524
Yeah. And that can create all kinds of

192
00:07:19,524 --> 00:07:23,285
problems. Premature conclusions and what relieves tension for

193
00:07:23,285 --> 00:07:26,004
you might actually create extra tension for someone

194
00:07:26,004 --> 00:07:28,085
else. Yeah. And the the third and best

195
00:07:28,085 --> 00:07:30,964
option is figure out what God wants you

196
00:07:30,964 --> 00:07:32,264
to learn from the tension,

197
00:07:32,659 --> 00:07:34,899
and then try to find some higher order

198
00:07:34,899 --> 00:07:37,699
principle that balances the tension. You know, if

199
00:07:37,699 --> 00:07:39,240
you go back to Fiddler on the Roof,

200
00:07:39,779 --> 00:07:42,579
the message of that beautiful play isn't pick

201
00:07:42,579 --> 00:07:44,519
tradition or pick change,

202
00:07:44,935 --> 00:07:47,495
It's find the higher principle where you can

203
00:07:47,495 --> 00:07:49,894
integrate the two. Right? It's not or, it's

204
00:07:49,894 --> 00:07:50,394
and.

205
00:07:50,774 --> 00:07:53,175
And so that word and as opposed to

206
00:07:53,175 --> 00:07:55,414
or is a powerful word when you're trying

207
00:07:55,414 --> 00:07:58,329
to figure out tension and change. Yep. Any

208
00:07:58,329 --> 00:08:00,009
other point that we need to review to

209
00:08:00,009 --> 00:08:01,129
to bring us up to speed? Or is

210
00:08:01,129 --> 00:08:02,810
that I think so. I think that's it.

211
00:08:02,810 --> 00:08:04,490
I'd love to start with a little story,

212
00:08:04,490 --> 00:08:06,410
though, that Yeah. This is a true story

213
00:08:06,410 --> 00:08:08,350
that kind of gets us into the

214
00:08:08,729 --> 00:08:10,329
the head and heart space for what we're

215
00:08:10,329 --> 00:08:12,724
gonna talk about today. So I have,

216
00:08:13,104 --> 00:08:14,704
I live in Midway, so I'm on the

217
00:08:14,704 --> 00:08:16,404
other side of Mount Timpanogos,

218
00:08:17,185 --> 00:08:18,865
and I have a little office on the

219
00:08:18,865 --> 00:08:21,204
west side of my house that overlooks Timp,

220
00:08:21,584 --> 00:08:25,024
and there's a pond behind my house. And,

221
00:08:25,344 --> 00:08:27,560
it's really kind of fun because we're up

222
00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:29,399
in the mountains a little bit, and so

223
00:08:29,399 --> 00:08:32,200
the wildlife that enjoy that pond is really

224
00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,440
interesting. I've had all kinds of things show

225
00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:36,120
up, and I won't, you know, give you

226
00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:36,940
the whole list.

227
00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:39,240
But last fall, I had a really, really

228
00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:40,379
spectacular visitor

229
00:08:40,824 --> 00:08:42,904
that I'd never had before. And it was

230
00:08:42,904 --> 00:08:44,684
a kingfisher. Do you know what a kingfisher

231
00:08:44,745 --> 00:08:46,684
is? I do not. Okay. A kingfisher

232
00:08:47,065 --> 00:08:49,404
is a bird that's, oh, probably

233
00:08:49,784 --> 00:08:53,324
50% bigger than a robin. Oh, wow. And

234
00:08:53,544 --> 00:08:56,044
they have these incredible slate blue feathers

235
00:08:56,669 --> 00:08:59,549
with brilliant black and white stripes and then

236
00:08:59,549 --> 00:09:02,049
a big bill because they are fishing birds.

237
00:09:02,350 --> 00:09:04,190
Right? And so they, you know, they kinda

238
00:09:04,190 --> 00:09:05,809
look like a woodpecker might,

239
00:09:06,269 --> 00:09:07,330
but they're beautiful.

240
00:09:07,710 --> 00:09:10,554
And I looked up one morning and, and

241
00:09:10,554 --> 00:09:12,315
sitting on the top of a tall spruce

242
00:09:12,315 --> 00:09:15,355
tree is a kingfisher overlooking this pond, and

243
00:09:15,355 --> 00:09:17,054
it was looking for breakfast.

244
00:09:17,754 --> 00:09:20,475
And I had the, you know, the privilege

245
00:09:20,475 --> 00:09:22,634
of actually seeing it dive down into the

246
00:09:22,634 --> 00:09:24,570
water and take a small fish out.

247
00:09:25,370 --> 00:09:26,990
And then it went back to its perch.

248
00:09:27,529 --> 00:09:30,110
And it wasn't too long before a magpie

249
00:09:30,169 --> 00:09:32,830
showed up. Okay. So this magpie shows up

250
00:09:32,970 --> 00:09:35,629
and it's kind of darting at the kingfisher

251
00:09:35,769 --> 00:09:37,629
a little bit, and then a second magpie,

252
00:09:38,075 --> 00:09:39,455
and then a third magpie,

253
00:09:39,835 --> 00:09:41,914
and then I don't remember exactly how many,

254
00:09:41,914 --> 00:09:44,235
but four or five magpies all showed up,

255
00:09:44,235 --> 00:09:45,294
and they were all

256
00:09:45,674 --> 00:09:47,855
darting at and harassing this kingfisher

257
00:09:48,554 --> 00:09:50,875
to the point that it took flight, right,

258
00:09:50,875 --> 00:09:53,000
as you would. Mhmm. And, you know, the

259
00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,639
magpies are big and aggressive, and there was

260
00:09:55,639 --> 00:09:57,580
a little dog fight that took place

261
00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,240
above the pond between the kingfisher and the

262
00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,720
pack of magpies that was chasing it. And

263
00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:05,340
it lasted maybe a minute,

264
00:10:05,764 --> 00:10:06,664
and then the kingfisher

265
00:10:07,524 --> 00:10:08,345
got tired

266
00:10:08,725 --> 00:10:11,924
and just flew away. Mhmm. And I it

267
00:10:11,924 --> 00:10:13,284
was kind of a powerful thing for me,

268
00:10:13,284 --> 00:10:15,284
and it was disturbing to me that this

269
00:10:15,284 --> 00:10:15,784
absolutely

270
00:10:16,164 --> 00:10:17,865
spectacular, beautiful creature

271
00:10:18,389 --> 00:10:20,009
was driven off my property

272
00:10:20,550 --> 00:10:22,950
by a flock of magpies. And I thought

273
00:10:22,950 --> 00:10:24,470
about it a lot. I'm like, why did

274
00:10:24,470 --> 00:10:27,029
these magpies do that? And then I realized

275
00:10:27,029 --> 00:10:29,430
that the kingfisher was guilty of a terrible

276
00:10:29,430 --> 00:10:29,930
sin,

277
00:10:30,309 --> 00:10:32,389
not being a magpie. Yeah. It was different.

278
00:10:32,389 --> 00:10:33,995
Yeah. It's different. And

279
00:10:35,014 --> 00:10:36,534
we can learn a lot from that from

280
00:10:36,534 --> 00:10:38,455
some of this data you've I hope we

281
00:10:38,455 --> 00:10:40,615
will. I think there's something in that story

282
00:10:40,615 --> 00:10:43,095
that is instructive. Yeah. Well, where's a good

283
00:10:43,095 --> 00:10:46,269
jumping off point for Well, hey. Let's Kurt,

284
00:10:46,269 --> 00:10:48,110
if it's okay, I wanna go back to

285
00:10:48,110 --> 00:10:51,009
some information we talked about just briefly

286
00:10:51,389 --> 00:10:52,210
last episode,

287
00:10:52,830 --> 00:10:54,289
and I'm gonna do it verbally,

288
00:10:54,750 --> 00:10:56,909
but it'll kinda set up some of what

289
00:10:56,909 --> 00:10:59,024
we're gonna talk about. So, one of the

290
00:10:59,024 --> 00:11:00,865
things that we ask people is what is

291
00:11:00,865 --> 00:11:03,024
the greatest strength in the culture? Right? And

292
00:11:03,024 --> 00:11:03,524
so

293
00:11:04,144 --> 00:11:07,605
they said things like community, service, faith, unity,

294
00:11:07,745 --> 00:11:09,605
kindness, teaching, family.

295
00:11:10,065 --> 00:11:11,825
And you and I talked about, Hey, yeah,

296
00:11:11,825 --> 00:11:14,240
that feels that feels right. That's the church

297
00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:15,139
that we love.

298
00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:16,259
And so

299
00:11:16,639 --> 00:11:17,940
I'll just kind of summarize

300
00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:20,959
the strengths of the culture that people talked

301
00:11:20,959 --> 00:11:22,799
about in our research. Being part of a

302
00:11:22,799 --> 00:11:25,699
loving and supportive community of believers,

303
00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:28,179
a heritage of serving others,

304
00:11:28,774 --> 00:11:32,795
spiritual strength and growing through Christ, working together

305
00:11:32,934 --> 00:11:36,455
towards common religious ideals and goals, and caring

306
00:11:36,455 --> 00:11:37,915
for one another in kindness.

307
00:11:38,295 --> 00:11:40,875
Those are the most frequently mentioned strengths

308
00:11:41,289 --> 00:11:43,289
in the culture. And I, you know, does

309
00:11:43,289 --> 00:11:45,610
that represent the church that you grew up

310
00:11:45,610 --> 00:11:47,629
in and the church that you love and

311
00:11:47,690 --> 00:11:50,009
the church you still love? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

312
00:11:50,009 --> 00:11:52,090
Me too. I thought it would be fun

313
00:11:52,090 --> 00:11:53,950
just to read a few verbatims

314
00:11:54,665 --> 00:11:56,585
in this area. We read some last time

315
00:11:56,585 --> 00:11:58,125
and I think reading

316
00:11:58,585 --> 00:12:00,904
real comments from real people is powerful. It

317
00:12:00,904 --> 00:12:03,004
goes beyond the data. But one person said,

318
00:12:03,625 --> 00:12:06,024
it's the fellowship with others, many whom are

319
00:12:06,024 --> 00:12:08,845
very different from myself in background and experiences

320
00:12:09,225 --> 00:12:09,965
and opinions.

321
00:12:10,740 --> 00:12:13,220
Another person said, opportunities to serve in an

322
00:12:13,220 --> 00:12:13,720
organization

323
00:12:14,740 --> 00:12:16,740
in a meaningful way and feel like I'm

324
00:12:16,740 --> 00:12:18,659
making a difference, even if it's just in

325
00:12:18,659 --> 00:12:20,200
the lives of a few people.

326
00:12:20,580 --> 00:12:23,299
Another person said, having a system of faith

327
00:12:23,299 --> 00:12:24,120
and values.

328
00:12:24,575 --> 00:12:26,654
It makes my life better and it helps

329
00:12:26,654 --> 00:12:28,575
me raise my children better than I could

330
00:12:28,575 --> 00:12:29,875
do on my own.

331
00:12:30,254 --> 00:12:30,914
And then

332
00:12:31,294 --> 00:12:33,695
maybe my favorite, The comfort of knowing the

333
00:12:33,695 --> 00:12:34,595
plan of happiness,

334
00:12:34,975 --> 00:12:36,195
even when I'm unhappy.

335
00:12:37,054 --> 00:12:38,355
Yeah. These are all

336
00:12:38,730 --> 00:12:41,370
beautiful sentiments about what people love about the

337
00:12:41,370 --> 00:12:44,009
culture. Yeah. Let's kinda hit the same thing

338
00:12:44,009 --> 00:12:46,909
on the weaknesses of the culture. And so

339
00:12:47,450 --> 00:12:48,509
44%

340
00:12:48,570 --> 00:12:49,789
of people said

341
00:12:50,330 --> 00:12:50,830
judgment,

342
00:12:51,209 --> 00:12:52,330
37%

343
00:12:52,330 --> 00:12:53,870
said cultural norms,

344
00:12:54,404 --> 00:12:58,105
32% said groupthink. 32% said exclusivity.

345
00:12:58,565 --> 00:12:59,524
29%

346
00:12:59,524 --> 00:13:01,924
said inclusivity. You know, different sides of the

347
00:13:01,924 --> 00:13:02,664
same coin.

348
00:13:03,284 --> 00:13:05,704
Overall, it's sort of this idea of judgment,

349
00:13:05,764 --> 00:13:06,264
conformity,

350
00:13:06,565 --> 00:13:07,065
exclusivity,

351
00:13:07,605 --> 00:13:09,065
overreliance on traditions,

352
00:13:09,379 --> 00:13:10,839
and fear can contribute

353
00:13:11,379 --> 00:13:12,120
to exclusion,

354
00:13:12,820 --> 00:13:16,419
inhibit healthy adaptation and growth, discourage critical thinking,

355
00:13:16,419 --> 00:13:18,659
and contribute to fear and perfectionism. So that

356
00:13:18,659 --> 00:13:20,500
was kind of the theme. But if if

357
00:13:20,500 --> 00:13:22,820
you're okay, I'm just gonna read the AI

358
00:13:22,820 --> 00:13:25,634
descriptions on each of the top several. Okay.

359
00:13:25,634 --> 00:13:27,235
And I I want you to kinda look

360
00:13:27,235 --> 00:13:29,475
for a pattern. Okay. Because there's a clear

361
00:13:29,475 --> 00:13:31,554
pattern. Now remember, the question is, what are

362
00:13:31,554 --> 00:13:33,334
the greatest weaknesses of the culture?

363
00:13:33,875 --> 00:13:34,375
Judgment,

364
00:13:34,914 --> 00:13:39,174
evaluating and criticizing others based on perceived differences,

365
00:13:39,929 --> 00:13:42,110
causing exclusion and lack of acceptance.

366
00:13:42,730 --> 00:13:43,610
44%

367
00:13:43,610 --> 00:13:47,309
of people reference that theme. 37%

368
00:13:47,370 --> 00:13:50,970
cited cultural norms, rigid expectations for beliefs and

369
00:13:50,970 --> 00:13:51,470
behaviors

370
00:13:52,014 --> 00:13:54,174
that can create barriers for those who are

371
00:13:54,174 --> 00:13:54,674
different.

372
00:13:55,054 --> 00:13:56,014
32%

373
00:13:56,014 --> 00:13:59,054
groupthink, the tendency to conform to the dominant

374
00:13:59,054 --> 00:13:59,554
viewpoint

375
00:14:00,095 --> 00:14:01,794
leading to a lack of diversity

376
00:14:02,414 --> 00:14:03,634
and critical thinking.

377
00:14:04,110 --> 00:14:04,990
32%

378
00:14:04,990 --> 00:14:06,450
also cited exclusivity

379
00:14:06,830 --> 00:14:09,789
being unwelcoming to those who don't fit our

380
00:14:09,789 --> 00:14:11,009
traditional mold,

381
00:14:11,470 --> 00:14:11,970
particularly

382
00:14:12,269 --> 00:14:13,570
socially and culturally.

383
00:14:14,190 --> 00:14:15,730
And then 29%

384
00:14:15,789 --> 00:14:16,690
said inclusivity,

385
00:14:17,544 --> 00:14:20,845
the challenges of accepting individuals with different backgrounds,

386
00:14:20,985 --> 00:14:22,365
beliefs, and lifestyles.

387
00:14:22,904 --> 00:14:25,144
So what's the pattern? There's a clear pattern

388
00:14:25,144 --> 00:14:27,085
there. Yeah. The words jump out. Differences,

389
00:14:27,465 --> 00:14:30,745
different, diversity, don't fit, differences. Right? The how

390
00:14:30,745 --> 00:14:33,179
we're different. Yeah. Yeah. And, Curt, I'd also

391
00:14:33,179 --> 00:14:34,080
like to briefly

392
00:14:34,620 --> 00:14:36,779
revisit a second slide we looked at last

393
00:14:36,779 --> 00:14:38,779
time. How comfortable are you in the culture?

394
00:14:38,779 --> 00:14:40,540
And you'll remember this slide because what we

395
00:14:40,540 --> 00:14:42,460
did is we took the broad data set

396
00:14:42,460 --> 00:14:44,834
and we split it into different groups. And

397
00:14:44,834 --> 00:14:46,355
we looked at a group that's kind of

398
00:14:46,355 --> 00:14:47,095
more traditional,

399
00:14:47,794 --> 00:14:49,495
more Orthodox church members

400
00:14:49,954 --> 00:14:52,674
versus a different group that's sort of general

401
00:14:52,674 --> 00:14:55,334
church population, more typical church members.

402
00:14:55,714 --> 00:14:57,654
And as you can see from the slide,

403
00:14:58,029 --> 00:15:00,190
there are huge differences in how they feel

404
00:15:00,190 --> 00:15:02,690
about the culture. So in that traditional group,

405
00:15:03,230 --> 00:15:04,350
73%

406
00:15:04,350 --> 00:15:06,850
said, I'm very comfortable in the culture.

407
00:15:07,309 --> 00:15:10,690
In the less traditional group, only 11%

408
00:15:10,750 --> 00:15:13,570
said, I'm very comfortable in the culture.

409
00:15:14,084 --> 00:15:17,284
And these wonderful folks are sitting in the

410
00:15:17,284 --> 00:15:17,784
pews

411
00:15:18,164 --> 00:15:20,804
at the same time Yeah. Having a very,

412
00:15:20,804 --> 00:15:24,884
very different experience. Yeah. K? And so that

413
00:15:24,884 --> 00:15:25,865
creates tension.

414
00:15:26,210 --> 00:15:27,809
And if you're okay, I'd like to just

415
00:15:27,809 --> 00:15:29,830
read a few verbatims from people

416
00:15:30,210 --> 00:15:32,529
who are experiencing tension, you know, so that

417
00:15:32,529 --> 00:15:34,870
we can contrast that with those that are

418
00:15:34,929 --> 00:15:36,870
feeling really good in the culture.

419
00:15:37,410 --> 00:15:37,910
So

420
00:15:38,465 --> 00:15:39,684
one person said,

421
00:15:40,225 --> 00:15:41,925
There is pressure to conform.

422
00:15:42,945 --> 00:15:44,325
Another person said,

423
00:15:44,705 --> 00:15:46,625
You must work hard to carve out a

424
00:15:46,625 --> 00:15:49,524
niche if you don't fall into the majority.

425
00:15:49,745 --> 00:15:51,845
And it doesn't mean there isn't a space,

426
00:15:52,250 --> 00:15:54,490
but it may be lonely and uncomfortable for

427
00:15:54,490 --> 00:15:56,809
a good while, and this drives some people

428
00:15:56,809 --> 00:15:57,309
away.

429
00:15:57,929 --> 00:16:00,409
Another person said, First and foremost, we value

430
00:16:00,409 --> 00:16:00,909
certainty

431
00:16:01,529 --> 00:16:05,129
over faith and hope. Another said, If you

432
00:16:05,129 --> 00:16:06,965
don't conform to the culture,

433
00:16:07,345 --> 00:16:09,585
you must keep it quiet in order to

434
00:16:09,585 --> 00:16:10,485
serve effectively.

435
00:16:11,184 --> 00:16:13,285
Two more. Another person said,

436
00:16:13,825 --> 00:16:16,144
we are afraid of those who have doubts

437
00:16:16,144 --> 00:16:18,225
and we do not wish those doubts to

438
00:16:18,225 --> 00:16:19,684
be expressed publicly.

439
00:16:20,399 --> 00:16:22,720
Actually, two more now. We are afraid of

440
00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,620
people who look or act differently.

441
00:16:26,159 --> 00:16:29,039
We're afraid of having truly vulnerable discussions about

442
00:16:29,039 --> 00:16:30,579
faith and personal struggles.

443
00:16:30,959 --> 00:16:33,039
We're getting better in many of these areas,

444
00:16:33,039 --> 00:16:34,639
but I wish we were getting better a

445
00:16:34,639 --> 00:16:35,379
little faster.

446
00:16:35,705 --> 00:16:37,865
And then this is my favorite perhaps, there's

447
00:16:37,865 --> 00:16:39,325
only one way to be a Mormon,

448
00:16:39,784 --> 00:16:41,304
and we forget that our job is to

449
00:16:41,304 --> 00:16:43,804
be fishers of men, not sorters of fish.

450
00:16:44,024 --> 00:16:46,024
Right? And so these are people that are

451
00:16:46,024 --> 00:16:48,105
active faithful members of the church, but they're

452
00:16:48,105 --> 00:16:50,424
feeling conflict. They're in that 11%, you know,

453
00:16:50,424 --> 00:16:52,740
they're in that group that where only 11%

454
00:16:52,740 --> 00:16:54,179
feel comfortable. And my mind goes to, you

455
00:16:54,179 --> 00:16:55,879
know, the 73%

456
00:16:56,100 --> 00:16:58,120
who feel very comfortable, the more orthodox.

457
00:16:58,659 --> 00:17:00,100
They may hear some of those and be

458
00:17:00,100 --> 00:17:02,259
like, yeah. That's exactly what we're trying to

459
00:17:02,259 --> 00:17:04,934
do because Yeah. You know, obviously, we talk

460
00:17:04,934 --> 00:17:07,894
about a covenant path. Right? Not covenant paths

461
00:17:07,894 --> 00:17:10,295
or pick your path, whatever, or A path.

462
00:17:10,375 --> 00:17:12,535
The the savior and redeemer. There's not like,

463
00:17:12,535 --> 00:17:14,535
well, you know, you can shop around for

464
00:17:14,535 --> 00:17:16,214
your best redeemer and Yeah. Go go with

465
00:17:16,214 --> 00:17:17,974
him. Right? And so there is this feeling

466
00:17:17,974 --> 00:17:20,450
from a leadership standpoint of like, well, yeah,

467
00:17:20,669 --> 00:17:22,789
we we want to change people. Right? And

468
00:17:22,909 --> 00:17:24,829
Yeah. I think it's connected. You sort of

469
00:17:24,829 --> 00:17:27,230
hear the trope of, like, you know, people

470
00:17:27,230 --> 00:17:27,730
will

471
00:17:28,269 --> 00:17:31,149
say, like, people outside the church, they just

472
00:17:31,149 --> 00:17:33,309
want too much acceptance and Mhmm. Leave leave

473
00:17:33,309 --> 00:17:34,669
us how we are and accept us how

474
00:17:34,669 --> 00:17:36,484
we are. We're like, no. No. No. We

475
00:17:36,484 --> 00:17:38,644
we want to make you better. God wants

476
00:17:38,644 --> 00:17:40,244
to make you better, which Mhmm. You know,

477
00:17:40,244 --> 00:17:42,724
all things considered, yes, those are true, but

478
00:17:42,724 --> 00:17:44,404
there's more going on here. Right? And so

479
00:17:44,565 --> 00:17:45,924
and what we'll get into this as far

480
00:17:45,924 --> 00:17:48,005
as, like, our natural impulses when we hear

481
00:17:48,005 --> 00:17:50,559
this. But it's so basically, you're reading these.

482
00:17:50,559 --> 00:17:52,399
Let's just sit with these and realize this

483
00:17:52,399 --> 00:17:54,079
is where people are at. Right? Yeah. Look.

484
00:17:54,079 --> 00:17:55,919
And I think those are good points. In

485
00:17:55,919 --> 00:17:58,000
fact, I there's a recording playing in my

486
00:17:58,000 --> 00:17:59,119
head right now Uh-huh.

487
00:17:59,519 --> 00:18:00,900
Which is, you know,

488
00:18:01,275 --> 00:18:02,815
my former self or

489
00:18:03,195 --> 00:18:05,355
people I know and love who are very

490
00:18:05,355 --> 00:18:05,855
traditional

491
00:18:06,315 --> 00:18:06,815
members

492
00:18:07,195 --> 00:18:08,015
and leaders.

493
00:18:08,555 --> 00:18:10,815
Hey, buddy. This isn't a smorgasbord.

494
00:18:11,355 --> 00:18:13,515
Yeah. Right? We don't get to pick and

495
00:18:13,515 --> 00:18:14,015
choose,

496
00:18:14,410 --> 00:18:16,410
you know, what is in the church and

497
00:18:16,410 --> 00:18:18,490
in the gospel. And look, I agree with

498
00:18:18,490 --> 00:18:20,109
that sentiment in general,

499
00:18:20,490 --> 00:18:22,329
but as we saw in our last episode,

500
00:18:22,329 --> 00:18:24,430
remember the beautiful chart that showed

501
00:18:24,890 --> 00:18:27,869
the contrast between what people deeply believe personally,

502
00:18:28,265 --> 00:18:29,865
and what they believe is important in the

503
00:18:29,865 --> 00:18:30,365
culture.

504
00:18:30,904 --> 00:18:32,424
You know, I think caring for the poor

505
00:18:32,424 --> 00:18:34,745
and needy is something that's deeply important to

506
00:18:34,745 --> 00:18:37,545
believe in. Mhmm. Right? Yeah. So this isn't

507
00:18:37,705 --> 00:18:40,265
I think sometimes we misframe this of, well,

508
00:18:40,265 --> 00:18:42,424
the tension is caused because people don't wanna

509
00:18:42,424 --> 00:18:44,769
be righteous. Mhmm. And there's nothing in the

510
00:18:44,769 --> 00:18:46,930
data that supports that that's what the cause

511
00:18:46,930 --> 00:18:47,990
of the tension is.

512
00:18:48,289 --> 00:18:50,769
It may be fair to say people have

513
00:18:50,769 --> 00:18:51,750
different mindsets

514
00:18:52,289 --> 00:18:53,670
about what being righteous

515
00:18:53,970 --> 00:18:57,330
means. Right. Yeah. And it's not our job

516
00:18:57,330 --> 00:18:59,384
to necessarily tell them this is a, b,

517
00:18:59,384 --> 00:19:00,904
and c, how you'd be righteous. We have

518
00:19:00,904 --> 00:19:02,585
to like, okay. You have that point of

519
00:19:02,585 --> 00:19:03,085
view,

520
00:19:03,384 --> 00:19:05,144
and I I'm I can give space for

521
00:19:05,144 --> 00:19:06,585
that or or sit with that. You know?

522
00:19:06,585 --> 00:19:08,664
Yeah. Because, again, that's caring for the poor

523
00:19:08,664 --> 00:19:10,424
and the needy. That's obviously still part of

524
00:19:10,424 --> 00:19:12,025
the gospel of Jesus Christ. Right? For sure.

525
00:19:12,025 --> 00:19:13,839
It is. Big part of it. And so

526
00:19:13,839 --> 00:19:15,839
it's not we're not saying, well, consider this

527
00:19:15,839 --> 00:19:17,940
other gospel. We're saying, no. This is all

528
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:19,279
under the umbrella. No. It's all it's all

529
00:19:19,279 --> 00:19:20,799
in. Yeah. You know, we're not talking about

530
00:19:20,799 --> 00:19:23,859
stuff that's outside that Yeah. Exactly. Domain. Exactly.

531
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:25,359
You know, I thought it would be fun

532
00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:27,619
for just a second before we shift gears,

533
00:19:27,839 --> 00:19:28,419
you know,

534
00:19:28,744 --> 00:19:29,404
to talk

535
00:19:29,865 --> 00:19:31,644
about So we have

536
00:19:31,945 --> 00:19:33,085
this inevitability

537
00:19:33,465 --> 00:19:36,205
of tension, right? Tradition and change,

538
00:19:36,904 --> 00:19:37,404
differences.

539
00:19:38,184 --> 00:19:40,125
And it's really not the tension

540
00:19:40,424 --> 00:19:43,225
that's the problem, it's our reaction, our natural

541
00:19:43,225 --> 00:19:44,525
reaction to the tension.

542
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:46,799
And so, you know, one of my favorite

543
00:19:46,799 --> 00:19:49,279
scriptures has been for years is Mosiah three

544
00:19:49,279 --> 00:19:51,599
nineteen, right? The natural man. And I'm not

545
00:19:51,599 --> 00:19:53,759
going to quote the whole scripture, but it

546
00:19:53,759 --> 00:19:56,720
basically says that the natural man is an

547
00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,045
enemy to God, and we have to put

548
00:19:59,045 --> 00:20:01,765
that off by yielding to the enticings of

549
00:20:01,765 --> 00:20:04,164
the Holy Spirit. Right? And so can this

550
00:20:04,164 --> 00:20:06,484
shed any light on this issue for us?

551
00:20:06,484 --> 00:20:08,644
And I think it can. So Yeah. The

552
00:20:08,644 --> 00:20:10,345
natural man, really,

553
00:20:10,799 --> 00:20:13,779
is our tendency to follow our natural instincts

554
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,000
of self preservation. Right? So you and I

555
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:17,840
could go down and list all the things

556
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:19,759
that we think are part of being the

557
00:20:19,759 --> 00:20:22,400
natural man. Right? Mhmm. And, you know, it's

558
00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,295
a messy list. Yeah. Yeah. Now some of

559
00:20:24,295 --> 00:20:27,015
those are important for your survival, right? And

560
00:20:27,015 --> 00:20:29,975
so the scripture in Mosiah doesn't say you

561
00:20:29,975 --> 00:20:32,455
should kill the natural man. What it says

562
00:20:32,455 --> 00:20:34,775
is you should yield to the spirit. In

563
00:20:34,775 --> 00:20:36,934
other words, the natural man should be subject

564
00:20:36,934 --> 00:20:39,140
to the governance of the spirit. Yeah. But

565
00:20:39,140 --> 00:20:41,799
the natural man keeps you alive. Yeah. Right?

566
00:20:42,019 --> 00:20:43,380
There has to be a a bit of

567
00:20:43,380 --> 00:20:45,640
that in us because it keeps us alive.

568
00:20:45,700 --> 00:20:47,539
It just has to be governed by the

569
00:20:47,539 --> 00:20:49,940
spirit. And so it's interesting if you look

570
00:20:49,940 --> 00:20:51,079
at neuroscience,

571
00:20:52,184 --> 00:20:54,204
When we encounter perceived threats,

572
00:20:54,505 --> 00:20:56,444
including social or ideological

573
00:20:56,825 --> 00:20:58,284
differences, our brain

574
00:20:58,825 --> 00:21:02,024
often activates the amygdala. Okay? Now, the amygdala

575
00:21:02,024 --> 00:21:03,325
is the place that regulates

576
00:21:03,625 --> 00:21:04,365
our fear

577
00:21:04,789 --> 00:21:07,750
and self protective responses like fight, flight, or

578
00:21:07,750 --> 00:21:08,250
freeze.

579
00:21:08,950 --> 00:21:10,169
And conformity

580
00:21:10,470 --> 00:21:10,970
emerges

581
00:21:11,429 --> 00:21:13,450
from that fear response because

582
00:21:13,750 --> 00:21:16,710
we're experiencing tension because something's different. It doesn't

583
00:21:16,710 --> 00:21:19,095
fit. We feel threatened by that. So we

584
00:21:19,095 --> 00:21:21,654
want to homogenize that difference and make it

585
00:21:21,654 --> 00:21:23,974
go away. Yeah. Right? And I I believe

586
00:21:23,974 --> 00:21:26,615
that's the natural man. And what we need

587
00:21:26,615 --> 00:21:27,355
to do is

588
00:21:27,734 --> 00:21:29,654
just be aware of that. Okay. You know,

589
00:21:29,654 --> 00:21:32,109
my amygdala is firing right now. You know,

590
00:21:32,109 --> 00:21:34,509
you mentioned being a bishop in its inner

591
00:21:34,509 --> 00:21:36,450
city ward and having people

592
00:21:36,909 --> 00:21:38,990
go to the podium to bear their testimonies

593
00:21:38,990 --> 00:21:40,909
with earphones and hoodies on, or I think

594
00:21:40,909 --> 00:21:41,809
I said they were.

595
00:21:42,190 --> 00:21:43,869
And I joked that, yeah, I'd I'd be

596
00:21:43,869 --> 00:21:44,929
the guy in the audience,

597
00:21:45,335 --> 00:21:47,575
you know, wagging my head saying, does he

598
00:21:47,575 --> 00:21:49,835
really have to dress like that for sacramenting?

599
00:21:49,894 --> 00:21:52,055
Right? Right. Well, my amygdala would be firing

600
00:21:52,055 --> 00:21:53,575
in that moment. Right. And so what we

601
00:21:53,575 --> 00:21:55,174
wanna do is just pause and take a

602
00:21:55,174 --> 00:21:55,674
breath

603
00:21:56,055 --> 00:21:58,075
and then move our thoughts to our prefrontal

604
00:21:58,375 --> 00:21:58,875
cortex,

605
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,460
which is the place where empathy,

606
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:02,740
self regulation,

607
00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:04,340
moral reasoning

608
00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:05,619
reside,

609
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,140
and the spirit can influence through those beautiful

610
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,880
values. Right? And so I think that the

611
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,725
learning here is really relevant, and the the

612
00:22:15,725 --> 00:22:17,184
lesson is perhaps

613
00:22:17,644 --> 00:22:19,644
we can't have a community that's led by

614
00:22:19,644 --> 00:22:22,924
our natural man and our amygdala. Right? Yeah.

615
00:22:22,924 --> 00:22:25,485
That plays a role, but it always has

616
00:22:25,485 --> 00:22:27,404
to be subject to the governance of the

617
00:22:27,404 --> 00:22:29,164
Holy Ghost. Yeah. This is really powerful, and

618
00:22:29,164 --> 00:22:31,630
I think this is helpful to just recognize

619
00:22:31,630 --> 00:22:32,690
that naturally,

620
00:22:33,230 --> 00:22:34,910
we are going to respond to certain things.

621
00:22:34,910 --> 00:22:36,130
We are. That doesn't mean

622
00:22:37,070 --> 00:22:39,549
that that's always the best way to respond,

623
00:22:39,549 --> 00:22:40,990
nor nor is it like it's not that

624
00:22:40,990 --> 00:22:43,470
we are always seeking tension. It's okay if

625
00:22:43,470 --> 00:22:45,184
there's sort of relief

626
00:22:45,484 --> 00:22:46,625
or balance or

627
00:22:47,005 --> 00:22:49,744
peace, you know, but when that tension comes

628
00:22:50,125 --> 00:22:51,804
okay. I'm I'm feeling some tension. How am

629
00:22:51,804 --> 00:22:53,404
I going to respond to this? Yeah. You

630
00:22:53,404 --> 00:22:54,764
know, move that part of the the brain.

631
00:22:54,764 --> 00:22:58,125
Right? So that rather than, well, something's off,

632
00:22:58,125 --> 00:22:59,730
we got to we have to fix something's

633
00:22:59,730 --> 00:23:01,490
wrong. We gotta fix it. And the way

634
00:23:01,490 --> 00:23:03,089
we're gonna fix it is we're gonna kill

635
00:23:03,089 --> 00:23:05,490
the tension. Yeah. Right. So now it's the

636
00:23:05,490 --> 00:23:07,349
tension. Because the natural man, we naturally

637
00:23:07,970 --> 00:23:08,549
go to

638
00:23:09,009 --> 00:23:11,089
sin. Right? Which Yeah. Which would be an

639
00:23:11,089 --> 00:23:14,005
appropriate Yep. Commentary about that scripture is sin.

640
00:23:14,005 --> 00:23:16,005
Right? But Mhmm. There's a lot more going

641
00:23:16,005 --> 00:23:16,744
on naturally.

642
00:23:17,045 --> 00:23:19,605
And then that's when that fruit was partaken

643
00:23:19,605 --> 00:23:21,845
of and we this was a fallen state,

644
00:23:21,845 --> 00:23:24,644
a lot happened there. It wasn't just suddenly

645
00:23:24,644 --> 00:23:26,164
we wanna sin or whatever. You know? So

646
00:23:26,244 --> 00:23:28,109
Yeah. And I look. I think the natural

647
00:23:28,109 --> 00:23:30,529
man is sin, the natural man is selfishness.

648
00:23:30,750 --> 00:23:33,950
Yeah. The natural man is self preservation, which

649
00:23:33,950 --> 00:23:36,029
might not be a bad thing. Right. Right?

650
00:23:36,029 --> 00:23:37,970
It just has to be governed

651
00:23:38,349 --> 00:23:40,125
under the By the spirit. Supervision of the

652
00:23:40,204 --> 00:23:41,964
spirit. Yeah. Right? Otherwise That's really powerful. Just

653
00:23:41,964 --> 00:23:44,285
per if all you do is pursue self

654
00:23:44,285 --> 00:23:44,785
preservation,

655
00:23:45,484 --> 00:23:47,505
it wouldn't be a very Christ like

656
00:23:47,884 --> 00:23:50,125
place, right? Or community, and you wouldn't be

657
00:23:50,125 --> 00:23:51,884
very Christ like, right? You'd be very self

658
00:23:51,884 --> 00:23:54,224
centered. Mhmm. But if you never

659
00:23:54,765 --> 00:23:56,569
thought of those things,

660
00:23:56,950 --> 00:23:59,589
you know, you'd stop eating, you'd stop working

661
00:23:59,589 --> 00:24:02,069
for a living, right? Yeah. You'd stop taking

662
00:24:02,069 --> 00:24:04,069
care of your health, and so there's a

663
00:24:04,069 --> 00:24:05,829
balance there. Yeah. And I'm just thinking, you

664
00:24:05,829 --> 00:24:08,150
know, from a general leadership perspective, this is

665
00:24:08,150 --> 00:24:10,275
such a powerful principle because even think of

666
00:24:10,275 --> 00:24:12,214
you're in a word council setting and suddenly

667
00:24:12,515 --> 00:24:14,515
people start to debate and there's kinda there's

668
00:24:14,515 --> 00:24:15,414
passion and,

669
00:24:16,035 --> 00:24:18,835
this feels uncomfortable. Like, I as the bishop,

670
00:24:18,835 --> 00:24:20,355
I need to make I need to ease

671
00:24:20,355 --> 00:24:22,835
this and get rid of this tension when

672
00:24:22,835 --> 00:24:23,734
it's happening in reality.

673
00:24:24,369 --> 00:24:26,210
We actually say, no, this is good. This

674
00:24:26,210 --> 00:24:28,210
means revelation is about to come forth. You

675
00:24:28,210 --> 00:24:30,769
know? I am excited you raised that point.

676
00:24:30,769 --> 00:24:32,549
I think that's a tremendous point.

677
00:24:32,849 --> 00:24:35,349
And I remember being a young bishop

678
00:24:35,809 --> 00:24:38,845
and come on guys, you know, bring it

679
00:24:38,845 --> 00:24:40,525
down a notch. Yeah. I would not do

680
00:24:40,525 --> 00:24:42,765
that now. Yeah. Right? I would try to

681
00:24:42,765 --> 00:24:45,184
govern the tone of the conversation perhaps,

682
00:24:45,565 --> 00:24:47,484
but I would want that conversation to take

683
00:24:47,484 --> 00:24:49,164
place. This reminds me of my interview I

684
00:24:49,164 --> 00:24:49,559
did with,

685
00:24:52,039 --> 00:24:52,680
Bishop Pope in, Southside Chicago. This is the

686
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:54,920
most baptizing ward in North America. Right? Okay.

687
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,080
Wow. And he said, if you wanna have

688
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,000
growth I'm not verbatim, but if you wanna

689
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:00,940
have growth in your ward and baptisms,

690
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,494
you have to get used to applauding in

691
00:25:03,494 --> 00:25:05,494
sacrament meeting. Love it. Because if you're Yeah.

692
00:25:05,494 --> 00:25:07,035
If you want to be the ward that

693
00:25:07,095 --> 00:25:09,994
suddenly the masses show up, you can't normalize

694
00:25:10,134 --> 00:25:12,215
them to some of these cultural norms or

695
00:25:12,215 --> 00:25:12,875
or policies

696
00:25:13,174 --> 00:25:14,715
overnight. No. And so

697
00:25:15,139 --> 00:25:17,859
should that mean we should just have, applause

698
00:25:17,859 --> 00:25:20,579
and clapping and sacramenting? Well, not necessarily, but

699
00:25:20,579 --> 00:25:22,579
just know that But maybe we can't orient

700
00:25:22,579 --> 00:25:24,899
everybody there, and it's okay to be okay

701
00:25:24,899 --> 00:25:26,819
with that tension. Right? But our natural man

702
00:25:26,819 --> 00:25:28,394
wants to be like, okay. Let's get a

703
00:25:28,394 --> 00:25:29,994
form and every or we'll pass out a

704
00:25:29,994 --> 00:25:32,555
pamphlet. No clapping in church. Right? I mean,

705
00:25:32,555 --> 00:25:34,315
that that's gonna drive people away No. For

706
00:25:34,315 --> 00:25:35,674
sure. You know, type of thing. So Oh,

707
00:25:35,674 --> 00:25:37,914
I you know, if we have time and

708
00:25:37,914 --> 00:25:39,595
it seems appropriate, I could share a couple

709
00:25:39,595 --> 00:25:42,179
of missionary stories where where I, you know,

710
00:25:42,179 --> 00:25:44,019
I was just I was taught deep and

711
00:25:44,019 --> 00:25:47,059
profound lessons from missionaries that don't fit. Yeah.

712
00:25:47,059 --> 00:25:48,900
Right? They don't they you know, where my

713
00:25:48,900 --> 00:25:51,059
initial first impression of them was, Wow, why

714
00:25:51,059 --> 00:25:53,220
are you here? Right? I I don't understand

715
00:25:53,220 --> 00:25:54,200
why you came.

716
00:25:54,575 --> 00:25:56,815
You know? I don't understand what you're gonna

717
00:25:56,815 --> 00:25:57,474
do here.

718
00:25:58,095 --> 00:25:58,595
And

719
00:25:58,894 --> 00:26:00,434
I was taught some really

720
00:26:00,815 --> 00:26:02,275
powerful lessons about

721
00:26:02,654 --> 00:26:05,214
my natural man tendencies. Yeah. And how I

722
00:26:05,214 --> 00:26:05,714
was

723
00:26:06,255 --> 00:26:07,474
absolutely misreading

724
00:26:08,015 --> 00:26:10,099
what God had in mind. Yeah. Yeah. And

725
00:26:10,099 --> 00:26:11,460
that's the beauty of tension. Again, it can

726
00:26:11,460 --> 00:26:13,299
be such a learning opportunity. For sure. And

727
00:26:13,299 --> 00:26:15,460
embrace those. For sure. I I hope we

728
00:26:15,460 --> 00:26:16,580
come back to that. I got a couple

729
00:26:16,580 --> 00:26:18,500
of questions. Okay. Alright. Alright. Teasing the audience

730
00:26:18,500 --> 00:26:20,019
here. So we Yeah. So let hey. Let

731
00:26:20,019 --> 00:26:21,480
me just quickly summarize

732
00:26:22,234 --> 00:26:24,154
you know, we've seen some data, we've talked

733
00:26:24,154 --> 00:26:26,875
about tension from differences and our tendency to

734
00:26:26,875 --> 00:26:28,875
conform. And so I just wanna kinda bring

735
00:26:28,875 --> 00:26:30,955
it to a head. So the tension comes

736
00:26:30,955 --> 00:26:33,434
from not from differences, but from our response

737
00:26:33,434 --> 00:26:34,414
to those differences.

738
00:26:35,069 --> 00:26:37,809
Conformity brings comfort to some of us,

739
00:26:38,109 --> 00:26:38,849
but creates

740
00:26:39,470 --> 00:26:40,929
discomfort for others.

741
00:26:41,549 --> 00:26:44,589
Belonging often feels conditional because it's tied to

742
00:26:44,589 --> 00:26:46,690
these unspoken cultural norms.

743
00:26:47,204 --> 00:26:48,664
Judgment fear, perfectionism

744
00:26:49,044 --> 00:26:51,304
rise when conformity outweighs compassion.

745
00:26:52,404 --> 00:26:55,284
Traditional members thrive in the culture because it

746
00:26:55,284 --> 00:26:56,585
reflects all their values,

747
00:26:56,884 --> 00:26:58,984
but less traditional members feel tension,

748
00:26:59,299 --> 00:27:02,259
not from disbelief, but from not fitting in

749
00:27:02,259 --> 00:27:04,900
or not feeling like they fit in. And

750
00:27:04,900 --> 00:27:06,339
I think it's safe to say that a

751
00:27:06,339 --> 00:27:07,799
Christ centered culture

752
00:27:08,579 --> 00:27:09,720
would accommodate

753
00:27:10,419 --> 00:27:13,140
a broader community because of empathy, humility, and

754
00:27:13,140 --> 00:27:16,285
love. Mhmm. Yeah. Powerful. Alright. What's next? Where

755
00:27:16,285 --> 00:27:18,684
are we going? Okay. Hey. I'm gonna share

756
00:27:18,684 --> 00:27:19,664
something that I

757
00:27:20,045 --> 00:27:22,525
am really excited about. I think this I'm

758
00:27:22,525 --> 00:27:23,884
pretty sure this is gonna be the first

759
00:27:23,884 --> 00:27:26,205
time that it's been shared publicly. Oh, cool.

760
00:27:26,205 --> 00:27:28,480
So unless somebody, you know, got a bootleg

761
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,640
copy and got out there. So you you

762
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:31,779
get it first, Kurt.

763
00:27:32,079 --> 00:27:34,819
But you're certainly aware that

764
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,319
the nature of people's differences in the space

765
00:27:38,319 --> 00:27:39,059
of spirituality,

766
00:27:39,519 --> 00:27:42,575
faith, belief, religion, churches has been deeply studied

767
00:27:42,575 --> 00:27:44,894
for decades and decades and decades. And so

768
00:27:44,894 --> 00:27:46,674
you have people like James Fowler

769
00:27:47,134 --> 00:27:49,234
who wrote the book Stages of Faith.

770
00:27:49,615 --> 00:27:51,990
You have Brian McLaren who wrote the book

771
00:27:52,069 --> 00:27:54,390
Faith After Doubt where he gets into four

772
00:27:54,390 --> 00:27:56,170
different ways of believing.

773
00:27:56,710 --> 00:27:58,390
And it's a long list. There are 15

774
00:27:58,390 --> 00:28:01,269
or 20 people that are either pastors or

775
00:28:01,269 --> 00:28:04,230
religious leaders or social scientists that have studied

776
00:28:04,230 --> 00:28:05,130
this phenomenon.

777
00:28:05,904 --> 00:28:08,704
And, I was super interested to get an

778
00:28:08,704 --> 00:28:12,065
LDS specific take on this. And so we

779
00:28:12,065 --> 00:28:13,984
included it in our research. Oh, cool. And

780
00:28:13,984 --> 00:28:16,244
so, now here's what I would tell you.

781
00:28:16,305 --> 00:28:18,625
This was not the entire 15,000

782
00:28:18,625 --> 00:28:20,244
people that took the whole survey.

783
00:28:20,590 --> 00:28:22,990
We did this as a follow-up survey and

784
00:28:22,990 --> 00:28:25,950
we got, you know, around 2,500

785
00:28:25,950 --> 00:28:29,490
to 3,000 responses. So big, big data set.

786
00:28:29,789 --> 00:28:31,650
And what I'm going to share with you

787
00:28:32,029 --> 00:28:32,529
is

788
00:28:32,990 --> 00:28:34,369
essentially a segmentation

789
00:28:34,750 --> 00:28:35,250
model

790
00:28:35,695 --> 00:28:38,335
of how Latter day saints are different in

791
00:28:38,335 --> 00:28:39,715
our religious mindsets.

792
00:28:40,255 --> 00:28:42,015
Okay. Now there are a couple of things

793
00:28:42,015 --> 00:28:43,134
you need to know on the front side

794
00:28:43,134 --> 00:28:44,914
of this. I'm going to oversimplify

795
00:28:45,295 --> 00:28:46,815
this. Right. So I'm going to show you

796
00:28:46,815 --> 00:28:48,894
six segments and I'm going to, I'm going

797
00:28:48,894 --> 00:28:49,474
to imply

798
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,240
that everybody is neatly tucked into one of

799
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,400
those six segments. But in reality, all of

800
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:55,759
us are a bit of a blend of

801
00:28:55,759 --> 00:28:58,900
multiple segments. Yeah. Right? There's typically a predominant

802
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:00,960
segment and that's sort of how we're gonna

803
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,565
talk about it. But for example, Kurt, you

804
00:29:03,565 --> 00:29:05,884
might have a pretty big chunk of two

805
00:29:05,884 --> 00:29:08,764
or three or even four of these different

806
00:29:08,764 --> 00:29:10,684
segments in you. I know I Yeah. I

807
00:29:10,684 --> 00:29:12,924
know I do. In a different context, like,

808
00:29:12,924 --> 00:29:16,204
whether it's Yes. Politics, sports Yes. Family, it

809
00:29:16,204 --> 00:29:18,849
probably is different. The other thing is it's

810
00:29:18,849 --> 00:29:20,470
dynamic. People change.

811
00:29:20,849 --> 00:29:23,570
Right? And so the mindset that might have

812
00:29:23,570 --> 00:29:26,049
been predominant for you ten years ago may

813
00:29:26,049 --> 00:29:27,990
not be the mindset that's predominant

814
00:29:28,450 --> 00:29:30,714
in you today. Right? So we need to

815
00:29:30,714 --> 00:29:32,414
understand that this is dynamic,

816
00:29:32,794 --> 00:29:33,774
it's complex.

817
00:29:34,315 --> 00:29:36,154
And the way to think about models and

818
00:29:36,154 --> 00:29:37,454
frameworks like this

819
00:29:37,755 --> 00:29:40,014
is that they're incredibly useful,

820
00:29:40,394 --> 00:29:42,974
but they're not true in the true sense.

821
00:29:43,034 --> 00:29:45,009
Right? Now they're not true because they're two

822
00:29:45,009 --> 00:29:47,750
dimensional and people are three-dimensional. Yeah. Right?

823
00:29:48,049 --> 00:29:50,789
So see this as this is incredibly useful,

824
00:29:51,090 --> 00:29:52,230
but not literally

825
00:29:52,609 --> 00:29:54,289
true. Right. It's almost like we're stepping into

826
00:29:54,289 --> 00:29:55,970
the laboratory and saying we're gonna put people

827
00:29:55,970 --> 00:29:58,764
in boxes. Yeah. Not because they are represented

828
00:29:58,825 --> 00:30:00,825
completely by the box, but we can learn,

829
00:30:00,825 --> 00:30:02,024
oh, there's a lot of people in this

830
00:30:02,024 --> 00:30:03,704
box. Why is that? Yes. And we can

831
00:30:03,704 --> 00:30:06,345
understand differences. We can understand how it affects

832
00:30:06,345 --> 00:30:07,884
our culture. Yeah. We can understand

833
00:30:08,264 --> 00:30:11,005
how that translates into motivations and values.

834
00:30:11,569 --> 00:30:12,529
But at the end of the day, we

835
00:30:12,529 --> 00:30:14,450
have to step back and say, it's useful

836
00:30:14,450 --> 00:30:16,289
but not true. Right. Right? And it's a

837
00:30:16,289 --> 00:30:19,009
two d model because people are unique and

838
00:30:19,009 --> 00:30:20,069
dynamic and,

839
00:30:20,369 --> 00:30:22,289
you know, try as we might to depict

840
00:30:22,289 --> 00:30:24,549
three d dynamics in a two d chart,

841
00:30:24,849 --> 00:30:26,450
you can't do it. And I would add,

842
00:30:26,450 --> 00:30:28,414
and correct me if I'm wrong, but, like,

843
00:30:28,414 --> 00:30:30,815
it's very easy to think that one of

844
00:30:30,815 --> 00:30:32,335
these is better than the other. Right? So

845
00:30:32,335 --> 00:30:33,934
if I think back in my my faith

846
00:30:33,934 --> 00:30:34,994
when I was a missionary,

847
00:30:35,535 --> 00:30:37,775
I would say now as a 43 year

848
00:30:37,775 --> 00:30:39,309
old man, I had a there was a

849
00:30:39,309 --> 00:30:41,570
little bit immature faith. But in the moment,

850
00:30:41,630 --> 00:30:43,710
I thought I had very mature faith. Right?

851
00:30:43,710 --> 00:30:45,470
I think that's fair. But it's not that

852
00:30:45,470 --> 00:30:46,830
I should go back in time and say,

853
00:30:46,830 --> 00:30:48,349
you're doing it wrong. You have the wrong

854
00:30:48,349 --> 00:30:49,950
faith. No. It was who I was at

855
00:30:49,950 --> 00:30:51,869
the moment, and that's okay. Yeah. Right. You

856
00:30:51,869 --> 00:30:53,785
know, let's make sure we come back to

857
00:30:53,785 --> 00:30:55,005
that. Okay. Because

858
00:30:55,625 --> 00:30:57,785
I'm not gonna present this as a progression.

859
00:30:57,785 --> 00:31:00,345
It's not a progression. Right. So, for example

860
00:31:00,825 --> 00:31:02,265
and by the way, I think people like

861
00:31:02,265 --> 00:31:05,164
Fowler and McLaren wouldn't present theirs as progressions

862
00:31:05,225 --> 00:31:07,660
as well, but they've labeled them as stage

863
00:31:07,660 --> 00:31:09,339
one, stage two, stage three. Hard to get

864
00:31:09,339 --> 00:31:11,500
out of that. Right? And Brian's a great

865
00:31:11,500 --> 00:31:13,180
guy, by the way, and he would definitely

866
00:31:13,180 --> 00:31:15,519
say, no, that's not the idea.

867
00:31:16,140 --> 00:31:19,599
So they're kinda saying their models typically say,

868
00:31:19,974 --> 00:31:22,375
what may happen to an individual through the

869
00:31:22,375 --> 00:31:23,674
course of their lifetime?

870
00:31:24,214 --> 00:31:26,714
This is different. This is the LDS community

871
00:31:27,014 --> 00:31:27,514
snapshot

872
00:31:27,815 --> 00:31:29,974
at a point in time. So it's not

873
00:31:29,974 --> 00:31:31,734
a a view of a lifetime of an

874
00:31:31,734 --> 00:31:32,234
individual.

875
00:31:32,539 --> 00:31:34,299
It's a snapshot of the community at a

876
00:31:34,299 --> 00:31:36,059
point in time. Yeah. Perfect. Okay. Hopefully that

877
00:31:36,059 --> 00:31:37,019
makes sense. But it's Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's

878
00:31:37,019 --> 00:31:39,099
worth it's worth the explanation. It'll make a

879
00:31:39,099 --> 00:31:40,619
lot of sense. So let's go ahead and

880
00:31:40,619 --> 00:31:43,179
put up the chart. It says six belief

881
00:31:43,179 --> 00:31:44,319
mindset segments.

882
00:31:44,714 --> 00:31:46,634
Now we're gonna spend some time on this.

883
00:31:46,634 --> 00:31:48,255
It's not super complicated,

884
00:31:48,634 --> 00:31:50,234
but it's there's enough here that we ought

885
00:31:50,234 --> 00:31:52,075
to just kind of methodically go through it.

886
00:31:52,075 --> 00:31:53,355
And so let me understand, like, as you

887
00:31:53,355 --> 00:31:55,515
were putting this data together, you wanted to

888
00:31:55,515 --> 00:31:57,809
say, let's see if we can create segments,

889
00:31:57,809 --> 00:31:59,970
whether maybe it's three segments, maybe it's 10,

890
00:31:59,970 --> 00:32:01,750
or, you know, hopefully, we can get them

891
00:32:01,809 --> 00:32:02,309
in

892
00:32:02,609 --> 00:32:04,369
some certain segments that we at least we

893
00:32:04,369 --> 00:32:07,169
can put definition behind it and say then

894
00:32:07,250 --> 00:32:09,329
so that they contrast. Right? Yeah. Yeah. That's

895
00:32:09,329 --> 00:32:11,215
it. And, you know, the idea of segmenting

896
00:32:11,515 --> 00:32:13,934
communities into groups so that you can more

897
00:32:14,235 --> 00:32:16,875
effectively understand and interact with them has been

898
00:32:16,875 --> 00:32:18,955
around, you know, since the beginning of time.

899
00:32:18,955 --> 00:32:22,095
Right. My perspective on this is deeply informed

900
00:32:22,154 --> 00:32:24,654
by being in the LDS space

901
00:32:25,130 --> 00:32:27,529
for a long time and doing research in

902
00:32:27,529 --> 00:32:30,170
the LDS space. What I'm gonna present here

903
00:32:30,170 --> 00:32:31,070
though is specifically

904
00:32:31,769 --> 00:32:33,450
insights and a model that came out of

905
00:32:33,450 --> 00:32:35,049
the research that we did that you've helped

906
00:32:35,049 --> 00:32:36,825
us with. Yeah. Great. And so

907
00:32:37,144 --> 00:32:38,505
let me just tell you how to read

908
00:32:38,505 --> 00:32:40,424
the chart first. And for those of your

909
00:32:40,424 --> 00:32:43,304
audience that are listening, I'm gonna try my

910
00:32:43,304 --> 00:32:43,804
best

911
00:32:44,345 --> 00:32:45,464
to give you what you need to know

912
00:32:45,464 --> 00:32:47,224
even though you can't see the chart. So

913
00:32:47,224 --> 00:32:49,144
what we've got here is we have six

914
00:32:49,144 --> 00:32:51,065
segments and you'll see on the far right,

915
00:32:51,065 --> 00:32:53,539
there's a segment that's in shaded in

916
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,000
gray because they're different, and I'm gonna come

917
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:56,900
back to that.

918
00:32:57,279 --> 00:32:59,600
The names of each of the segments are

919
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,840
there, a little symbol in a black circle

920
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:03,840
that kind of depicts the essence of the

921
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:04,340
segment.

922
00:33:04,734 --> 00:33:05,875
And then in the box,

923
00:33:06,414 --> 00:33:08,974
there are three descriptions of the segment. I'll

924
00:33:08,974 --> 00:33:10,434
talk about what those are.

925
00:33:10,815 --> 00:33:12,434
And then at the bottom there

926
00:33:12,734 --> 00:33:13,234
figurines

927
00:33:14,095 --> 00:33:14,595
that

928
00:33:15,054 --> 00:33:16,355
represent the approximate

929
00:33:16,909 --> 00:33:19,710
size of each segment in the LDS community.

930
00:33:19,710 --> 00:33:21,710
So for example, the first I'll walk you

931
00:33:21,710 --> 00:33:22,849
through the first one.

932
00:33:23,150 --> 00:33:25,309
The first group are called seekers. We call

933
00:33:25,309 --> 00:33:26,049
them seekers.

934
00:33:26,589 --> 00:33:29,150
And these are people that what they're looking

935
00:33:29,150 --> 00:33:31,309
for from the church community is they want

936
00:33:31,309 --> 00:33:31,809
direction,

937
00:33:32,275 --> 00:33:34,295
you know? How should we live our lives?

938
00:33:34,595 --> 00:33:35,974
They want help and support,

939
00:33:36,275 --> 00:33:37,414
and they want to contribute.

940
00:33:38,035 --> 00:33:41,075
K? And so their mindset is kind of

941
00:33:41,075 --> 00:33:42,295
pursuing practical,

942
00:33:43,154 --> 00:33:43,654
useful,

943
00:33:44,115 --> 00:33:44,615
uplifting

944
00:33:44,994 --> 00:33:45,494
experiences.

945
00:33:46,159 --> 00:33:48,000
And if I was to put their sort

946
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,399
of mindset on a bumper sticker, it would

947
00:33:50,399 --> 00:33:51,140
be seek,

948
00:33:51,519 --> 00:33:52,899
be, and do

949
00:33:53,279 --> 00:33:55,679
good. Mhmm. So these folks are kinda all

950
00:33:55,679 --> 00:33:58,079
about the fruits. Hey, if it's good, let's

951
00:33:58,079 --> 00:34:00,000
do it. And if it's bad, hey, we

952
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,005
probably shouldn't do it. Right? They don't tend

953
00:34:03,005 --> 00:34:05,265
to get too wound up in theology.

954
00:34:06,045 --> 00:34:07,984
I'm not saying that they're less theological,

955
00:34:08,525 --> 00:34:09,505
that they're less

956
00:34:10,045 --> 00:34:12,625
interested in, you know, knowing doctrine,

957
00:34:13,005 --> 00:34:15,724
but the mindset, the heart of their faith

958
00:34:15,724 --> 00:34:16,224
is

959
00:34:16,659 --> 00:34:17,159
goodness.

960
00:34:17,539 --> 00:34:18,519
Fruits. Right?

961
00:34:18,900 --> 00:34:21,460
And our estimate in The US is that

962
00:34:21,460 --> 00:34:23,639
this group is about 30%

963
00:34:23,699 --> 00:34:26,340
of membership. Mhmm. Does that make sense? And

964
00:34:26,340 --> 00:34:28,099
it's, it's membership in general or those who

965
00:34:28,099 --> 00:34:29,780
actually show up on on Sunday? This is

966
00:34:29,780 --> 00:34:31,960
actually people that tend to be

967
00:34:32,275 --> 00:34:33,094
more active.

968
00:34:33,394 --> 00:34:35,974
Less active people are not excluded from this,

969
00:34:36,195 --> 00:34:37,875
but these would be people that in general

970
00:34:37,954 --> 00:34:39,875
this would be kind of a composite view

971
00:34:39,875 --> 00:34:42,835
of people that are participating to a degree.

972
00:34:42,835 --> 00:34:45,635
Gotcha. Right? If they're out, hard out, very

973
00:34:45,635 --> 00:34:46,135
inactive,

974
00:34:46,839 --> 00:34:47,819
they would be underrepresented

975
00:34:48,519 --> 00:34:50,440
in the state of Gotcha. Okay. The second

976
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:51,980
group are called cultivators.

977
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,319
And these are people that are deeply interested

978
00:34:55,319 --> 00:34:56,139
in truth,

979
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:57,260
meaning,

980
00:34:57,639 --> 00:34:59,960
and personal growth. And so what they're looking

981
00:34:59,960 --> 00:35:01,099
for is authenticity,

982
00:35:02,344 --> 00:35:02,844
humility,

983
00:35:03,545 --> 00:35:04,045
inspiration,

984
00:35:04,424 --> 00:35:05,804
and spiritual nourishment.

985
00:35:06,184 --> 00:35:09,065
And their bumper sticker would be love and

986
00:35:09,065 --> 00:35:10,125
lift individuals.

987
00:35:10,904 --> 00:35:14,605
Right? And they they are roughly about 20%

988
00:35:14,664 --> 00:35:15,804
of membership.

989
00:35:16,105 --> 00:35:16,605
Okay?

990
00:35:17,070 --> 00:35:18,130
The third segment

991
00:35:18,430 --> 00:35:19,489
we call protectors.

992
00:35:20,349 --> 00:35:23,250
These are folks that are really focused on

993
00:35:23,550 --> 00:35:24,050
clarity,

994
00:35:24,750 --> 00:35:25,250
certainty,

995
00:35:25,630 --> 00:35:26,369
and order.

996
00:35:26,750 --> 00:35:27,809
They love doctrine,

997
00:35:28,349 --> 00:35:28,849
authority,

998
00:35:29,550 --> 00:35:30,050
leadership,

999
00:35:30,590 --> 00:35:31,329
and unity.

1000
00:35:31,715 --> 00:35:33,954
And their bumper sticker would be obey and

1001
00:35:33,954 --> 00:35:36,275
defend the church. Mhmm. You know anybody like

1002
00:35:36,275 --> 00:35:39,574
that? Yeah. Yeah. I do. And they're roughly

1003
00:35:39,635 --> 00:35:40,914
about 20%

1004
00:35:40,914 --> 00:35:43,074
of members. Now, here's what's interesting. We're gonna

1005
00:35:43,074 --> 00:35:44,054
come back to this.

1006
00:35:44,469 --> 00:35:47,210
The 20% figure there came from my research.

1007
00:35:47,269 --> 00:35:49,769
Now my well educated speculation,

1008
00:35:50,630 --> 00:35:52,150
this was not part of my research. I

1009
00:35:52,150 --> 00:35:54,309
want to be transparent about that, is while

1010
00:35:54,309 --> 00:35:56,469
the protectors are about 20%

1011
00:35:56,469 --> 00:35:57,610
of church membership,

1012
00:35:58,364 --> 00:36:02,284
they're 90 plus percent of church leadership. So,

1013
00:36:02,284 --> 00:36:05,244
Relief Society presidents, bishops, stake presidents, mission presidents,

1014
00:36:05,244 --> 00:36:06,144
general authorities,

1015
00:36:06,684 --> 00:36:09,105
90 plus percent of them are probably

1016
00:36:10,045 --> 00:36:12,764
heavy weighted towards protectors. They may have other

1017
00:36:12,764 --> 00:36:14,650
mindsets too, but they're gonna be in the

1018
00:36:14,650 --> 00:36:15,550
protector space.

1019
00:36:15,929 --> 00:36:18,250
I would not make that same observation about

1020
00:36:18,250 --> 00:36:19,849
the First Presidency and the Quorum of the

1021
00:36:19,849 --> 00:36:21,949
Twelve. I think there's a little more diversity

1022
00:36:22,650 --> 00:36:24,730
among them based on, you know, I've had

1023
00:36:24,730 --> 00:36:27,210
some exposure to several of them that's pretty

1024
00:36:27,210 --> 00:36:27,710
significant.

1025
00:36:28,010 --> 00:36:29,734
I've met all of them.

1026
00:36:30,034 --> 00:36:31,714
I've observed them like you have or any

1027
00:36:31,714 --> 00:36:33,154
other member of the church has and I

1028
00:36:33,154 --> 00:36:34,194
would tell you that I think there's a

1029
00:36:34,194 --> 00:36:35,954
little more diversity. Yeah. And you can kind

1030
00:36:35,954 --> 00:36:37,795
of pick up the tone of our topics

1031
00:36:37,795 --> 00:36:39,875
and their conference addresses and things. Yeah. Yeah,

1032
00:36:39,875 --> 00:36:42,389
you can. Yeah. Okay. The next group are

1033
00:36:42,389 --> 00:36:42,889
avoiders.

1034
00:36:43,510 --> 00:36:45,769
Okay. Now these are folks that want autonomy

1035
00:36:46,230 --> 00:36:48,630
and inner integrity is really important. So they're

1036
00:36:48,630 --> 00:36:50,010
about space and independence

1037
00:36:50,630 --> 00:36:52,869
and their bumper sticker is I'm gonna go

1038
00:36:52,869 --> 00:36:55,045
my own way. Right? Now that doesn't mean

1039
00:36:55,045 --> 00:36:56,965
they're not religious, and it doesn't mean that

1040
00:36:56,965 --> 00:36:58,485
they're not spiritual, and it doesn't mean they

1041
00:36:58,485 --> 00:36:59,864
don't have faith and belief.

1042
00:37:00,164 --> 00:37:01,945
It's just that they're not feeling

1043
00:37:02,244 --> 00:37:03,065
an institutional

1044
00:37:04,085 --> 00:37:06,980
connection to the community. Right? Yeah. The next

1045
00:37:06,980 --> 00:37:09,059
group are connected And what percentage is avoiders?

1046
00:37:09,059 --> 00:37:11,219
Oh, sorry. They're about 15%.

1047
00:37:11,219 --> 00:37:12,679
Now, we know that

1048
00:37:12,980 --> 00:37:15,219
that a much higher number of members of

1049
00:37:15,219 --> 00:37:17,539
the church are less active. Uh-huh. Right? So

1050
00:37:17,539 --> 00:37:19,315
you might say, well, that number seems too

1051
00:37:19,315 --> 00:37:20,994
low because there are a lot more people

1052
00:37:20,994 --> 00:37:23,235
than 15% that are less active. But you

1053
00:37:23,235 --> 00:37:25,335
can have people that are less active from

1054
00:37:25,715 --> 00:37:28,434
any number of segments. Yeah. Right? So these

1055
00:37:28,434 --> 00:37:30,755
speaks less to activity level and more to

1056
00:37:30,755 --> 00:37:31,255
mindset.

1057
00:37:31,555 --> 00:37:32,614
Got it. Okay.

1058
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,079
And then the next group is connectors. Connectors

1059
00:37:35,079 --> 00:37:37,159
to me are a really, really interesting group

1060
00:37:37,159 --> 00:37:38,679
and they're kind of two sides to it,

1061
00:37:38,679 --> 00:37:39,980
but they're about belonging

1062
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,400
and shared identity and meaning. And so what

1063
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:44,619
they want and need

1064
00:37:44,934 --> 00:37:45,755
are community

1065
00:37:46,135 --> 00:37:48,775
and shared tradition and ritual. And so, they're

1066
00:37:48,775 --> 00:37:50,694
kind of two types of connectors. There's the

1067
00:37:50,694 --> 00:37:51,594
social connector,

1068
00:37:51,894 --> 00:37:54,074
and you know the guy that just says,

1069
00:37:54,454 --> 00:37:56,454
Man, I love my elders quorum. We're gonna

1070
00:37:56,454 --> 00:37:59,789
go biking on Saturday. Right? And so it's

1071
00:37:59,789 --> 00:38:01,010
the social connection

1072
00:38:01,789 --> 00:38:04,030
of being part of the church community, and

1073
00:38:04,030 --> 00:38:06,369
they just love that. But there's an interesting

1074
00:38:06,670 --> 00:38:08,750
other side to this, and that is the

1075
00:38:08,750 --> 00:38:12,030
social connection that happens through our religious rites

1076
00:38:12,030 --> 00:38:12,690
and rituals.

1077
00:38:13,085 --> 00:38:13,984
So for example,

1078
00:38:14,444 --> 00:38:16,045
you know, I've had five children. They were

1079
00:38:16,045 --> 00:38:18,784
all baptized at eight. Of course, we invited

1080
00:38:18,844 --> 00:38:21,164
everybody we knew, our friends, our family, to

1081
00:38:21,164 --> 00:38:22,625
that special occasion.

1082
00:38:23,005 --> 00:38:24,784
And so there was a huge social

1083
00:38:25,349 --> 00:38:26,570
connecting moment

1084
00:38:26,950 --> 00:38:28,869
at that baptism, or sending a son or

1085
00:38:28,869 --> 00:38:30,789
daughter on a mission, or having them come

1086
00:38:30,789 --> 00:38:33,349
home, or having family members sealed in the

1087
00:38:33,349 --> 00:38:34,890
temple. Those are religious

1088
00:38:35,430 --> 00:38:38,570
experiences that have really big social impact.

1089
00:38:38,914 --> 00:38:41,155
And so connectors are all about that. They're

1090
00:38:41,155 --> 00:38:42,375
trying to get the

1091
00:38:42,675 --> 00:38:44,214
people in the community to,

1092
00:38:44,514 --> 00:38:46,675
you know, connect with each other, tie to

1093
00:38:46,675 --> 00:38:48,214
each other, be together.

1094
00:38:48,514 --> 00:38:51,074
The casserole makers, right? Yeah, the casserole makers,

1095
00:38:51,074 --> 00:38:51,574
yes.

1096
00:38:51,954 --> 00:38:54,090
The green jello makers. Yep. And then the

1097
00:38:54,090 --> 00:38:56,090
group that I don't have as much perspective

1098
00:38:56,090 --> 00:38:57,369
on, I know a fair bit about them,

1099
00:38:57,369 --> 00:38:59,450
but we here's the reason that box is

1100
00:38:59,450 --> 00:39:01,450
gray. I didn't put them in the survey.

1101
00:39:01,450 --> 00:39:03,289
I didn't get the typing question in the

1102
00:39:03,289 --> 00:39:05,610
survey. So just, you know, user air on

1103
00:39:05,610 --> 00:39:07,289
that. Okay. But there is a group of

1104
00:39:07,289 --> 00:39:10,175
people in the LDS community and other churches

1105
00:39:10,635 --> 00:39:13,775
that we call explorers, but they're about spiritual

1106
00:39:13,914 --> 00:39:16,815
experiences and revelation. And so they want spiritual

1107
00:39:16,875 --> 00:39:17,775
in intensity.

1108
00:39:18,474 --> 00:39:19,535
They want transcendence.

1109
00:39:20,269 --> 00:39:22,769
And their bumper sticker is, I'm seeking spiritual

1110
00:39:22,909 --> 00:39:23,409
encounters.

1111
00:39:23,710 --> 00:39:25,869
Mhmm. K. Now you probably know Latter day

1112
00:39:25,869 --> 00:39:27,569
Saints that would fit that description.

1113
00:39:28,109 --> 00:39:29,250
I certainly do.

1114
00:39:29,550 --> 00:39:32,030
I think, for example, when Joseph Smith was

1115
00:39:32,030 --> 00:39:32,530
young,

1116
00:39:32,875 --> 00:39:35,355
he was very much an explorer. Right? He

1117
00:39:35,355 --> 00:39:36,175
was seeking

1118
00:39:36,474 --> 00:39:37,775
connection with the divine.

1119
00:39:38,075 --> 00:39:40,175
He was asking these deep, meaningful,

1120
00:39:40,954 --> 00:39:41,454
existential

1121
00:39:41,994 --> 00:39:42,494
questions,

1122
00:39:43,114 --> 00:39:45,215
and he was having spiritual encounters.

1123
00:39:45,515 --> 00:39:47,609
Right? So those are the six groups. Does

1124
00:39:47,609 --> 00:39:50,010
that make sense? And so we're about if

1125
00:39:50,010 --> 00:39:52,170
I do the math, connectors and explorers about

1126
00:39:52,170 --> 00:39:54,409
15, like, what's the percentage of those? Or

1127
00:39:54,650 --> 00:39:56,250
Yeah. Connectors And maybe you don't have it.

1128
00:39:56,250 --> 00:39:58,489
Yeah. Connectors are about 15%.

1129
00:39:58,489 --> 00:40:00,813
Explorers, don't have the data. Whatever's left. Yeah.

1130
00:40:00,813 --> 00:40:02,720
I think it's a smaller group. I think

1131
00:40:02,720 --> 00:40:04,628
that group's a little bit smaller, but those

1132
00:40:04,628 --> 00:40:06,534
are the six groups. And we'll spend most

1133
00:40:06,534 --> 00:40:08,442
of the time talking about the five because

1134
00:40:08,442 --> 00:40:10,349
we've got a little bit of data. And

1135
00:40:10,349 --> 00:40:12,255
of course, there's overlapping. Right? There might be

1136
00:40:12,255 --> 00:40:14,163
a seeker who really loves connection and social

1137
00:40:14,401 --> 00:40:16,398
Yeah. Things. But Oh, for sure. For sure.

1138
00:40:16,398 --> 00:40:17,962
Maybe what they prioritize the most are the

1139
00:40:17,962 --> 00:40:19,525
values that resonate the most with their experience.

1140
00:40:19,721 --> 00:40:21,284
In a predominant segment. Okay. And we'll talk

1141
00:40:21,284 --> 00:40:22,848
a little bit more about that. I've got

1142
00:40:22,848 --> 00:40:24,411
some fun things that we can kind of

1143
00:40:24,411 --> 00:40:25,974
explore with that. So let me ask you

1144
00:40:25,974 --> 00:40:27,538
this, and maybe this is where you heard

1145
00:40:27,538 --> 00:40:29,565
it, but, like, so what? Like, why do

1146
00:40:29,565 --> 00:40:31,644
we need to have these different, you know,

1147
00:40:31,644 --> 00:40:32,144
segments

1148
00:40:32,764 --> 00:40:34,284
or be aware of them? Let's just come

1149
00:40:34,284 --> 00:40:36,445
to church. I'm gonna do the sacrament, and

1150
00:40:36,445 --> 00:40:38,864
we'll go to Elders' Gorm or whatever. Like,

1151
00:40:38,925 --> 00:40:39,405
where's the,

1152
00:40:40,125 --> 00:40:42,510
Where's the beef? The beef. Yeah. Yeah. Well,

1153
00:40:42,510 --> 00:40:43,869
let me let me just give you an

1154
00:40:43,869 --> 00:40:45,809
example. Uh-huh. Right? And

1155
00:40:46,190 --> 00:40:48,030
we could probably talk about this and come

1156
00:40:48,030 --> 00:40:49,809
up with 20 or 30 examples,

1157
00:40:50,269 --> 00:40:51,630
but I'll just give you one that I

1158
00:40:51,630 --> 00:40:52,769
know is kind of prominent.

1159
00:40:53,469 --> 00:40:55,090
So if you're a protector

1160
00:40:55,635 --> 00:40:56,614
and you're Which is ninety

1161
00:40:57,155 --> 00:40:59,074
ninety plus percent of leadership and maybe a

1162
00:40:59,074 --> 00:41:00,835
large chunk of this audience. Right? And by

1163
00:41:00,835 --> 00:41:03,074
the way, I'm gonna kinda come back to

1164
00:41:03,074 --> 00:41:03,735
this, but

1165
00:41:04,114 --> 00:41:06,295
all six segments are good. Right.

1166
00:41:06,594 --> 00:41:07,574
All six segments

1167
00:41:08,034 --> 00:41:10,454
have important and necessary and valuable

1168
00:41:11,099 --> 00:41:12,880
contributions in our church community.

1169
00:41:13,579 --> 00:41:15,420
And so it's important to start with that

1170
00:41:15,420 --> 00:41:17,820
mindset that, you know, a church that is

1171
00:41:17,820 --> 00:41:20,079
comprised of just one segment,

1172
00:41:20,380 --> 00:41:22,460
gosh, it just wouldn't be a very good

1173
00:41:22,460 --> 00:41:24,079
church, right? Can you imagine,

1174
00:41:24,485 --> 00:41:26,085
I'm not a golfer, but I'll use a

1175
00:41:26,085 --> 00:41:28,485
golf metaphor, a golf bag that only had

1176
00:41:28,485 --> 00:41:30,644
drivers in it. Yeah. K. It's not gonna

1177
00:41:30,644 --> 00:41:33,045
work very well. Right. Or a restaurant that

1178
00:41:33,045 --> 00:41:34,425
only served one

1179
00:41:34,724 --> 00:41:35,224
entree.

1180
00:41:35,605 --> 00:41:38,664
Right? Or a garden that had only one

1181
00:41:38,885 --> 00:41:39,864
type of plant.

1182
00:41:40,380 --> 00:41:41,760
Right? And so

1183
00:41:42,219 --> 00:41:44,559
having differences in the church community

1184
00:41:45,099 --> 00:41:47,900
is incredibly valuable, right? Because if you go

1185
00:41:47,900 --> 00:41:49,819
back let's go back to that slide for

1186
00:41:49,819 --> 00:41:51,980
just a second, and let's look at the

1187
00:41:51,980 --> 00:41:54,744
bumper stickers for these six segments. We have

1188
00:41:54,744 --> 00:41:57,385
people that want to seek, be, and do

1189
00:41:57,385 --> 00:41:57,885
good.

1190
00:41:58,264 --> 00:41:59,945
Do we need that in the church community?

1191
00:41:59,945 --> 00:42:02,905
Yeah. Yes. We have people that wanna love

1192
00:42:02,905 --> 00:42:04,204
and lift individuals.

1193
00:42:04,824 --> 00:42:06,760
Do we need that? Yeah. Yes. We have

1194
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,160
people that wanna obey and defend the church.

1195
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,099
Do we need that? Yeah. We do.

1196
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:13,239
We have people that kinda wanna go their

1197
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:15,880
own way. We even need them. Right. Right?

1198
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,200
Because they there's something that they can teach

1199
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,140
us about our community and about ourselves.

1200
00:42:20,684 --> 00:42:23,244
We have people that strengthen the community. That

1201
00:42:23,244 --> 00:42:25,005
is their mindset. That is what they live

1202
00:42:25,005 --> 00:42:27,025
for. Do we need that? Absolutely.

1203
00:42:27,405 --> 00:42:30,204
And we have people that want to seek

1204
00:42:30,204 --> 00:42:32,224
spiritual encounters and have them.

1205
00:42:32,525 --> 00:42:34,045
And do we need that? I think we

1206
00:42:34,045 --> 00:42:36,320
do from time to time. Yeah. Right? And

1207
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,340
so there's value in all these differences,

1208
00:42:39,039 --> 00:42:40,099
and they're good.

1209
00:42:40,559 --> 00:42:42,159
There are a couple of reasons why I

1210
00:42:42,159 --> 00:42:44,000
think this model's really helpful, and we'll get

1211
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:45,760
into it. Number one is there's a bit

1212
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:46,659
of a disconnect

1213
00:42:47,039 --> 00:42:49,039
when most of your leadership comes from one

1214
00:42:49,039 --> 00:42:50,960
segment. Right. Right? So if you have 20%

1215
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:51,994
of your members

1216
00:42:52,375 --> 00:42:54,795
providing 90 plus percent of your leadership,

1217
00:42:55,335 --> 00:42:57,414
you immediately have a disconnect. Now what might

1218
00:42:57,414 --> 00:42:59,335
that disconnect look like? Well, and let me

1219
00:42:59,335 --> 00:43:00,855
ask you before we go there is, why

1220
00:43:00,855 --> 00:43:02,775
do you think that is? Like, maybe the

1221
00:43:02,775 --> 00:43:05,119
answer is obvious, but, I mean, obvious, the

1222
00:43:05,119 --> 00:43:05,619
protectors.

1223
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,820
Right? The, what is it? The the protectors,

1224
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,519
the clarity, certainty, order. I think I mean,

1225
00:43:11,519 --> 00:43:13,119
my my guess would be these are very

1226
00:43:13,119 --> 00:43:16,400
administrative calling, so order and, you know, making

1227
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:16,900
everything

1228
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:19,039
be in in bounds is is

1229
00:43:19,815 --> 00:43:23,574
can create stimulates control, and things don't go

1230
00:43:23,574 --> 00:43:25,855
off off kilter too quickly. Right? I mean

1231
00:43:25,974 --> 00:43:27,815
but what would you say? I think that's

1232
00:43:27,815 --> 00:43:29,355
an incredibly good question.

1233
00:43:29,974 --> 00:43:32,315
You're sensing that I'm being measured here.

1234
00:43:34,340 --> 00:43:36,099
You know, I've experienced this in my corporate

1235
00:43:36,099 --> 00:43:38,840
life as well. Yeah. You know, and so

1236
00:43:39,219 --> 00:43:40,519
I offer this perspective

1237
00:43:41,059 --> 00:43:43,059
with a lot of humility. Yeah. Because it's

1238
00:43:43,059 --> 00:43:44,280
a complicated question

1239
00:43:44,579 --> 00:43:46,579
and I don't know if I know. Yeah.

1240
00:43:46,579 --> 00:43:48,840
But I'll give you a thought.

1241
00:43:49,144 --> 00:43:50,844
If you think you're in a war,

1242
00:43:51,224 --> 00:43:52,764
you put soldiers in leadership.

1243
00:43:53,864 --> 00:43:56,184
Yeah. And so I think the predominant culture

1244
00:43:56,184 --> 00:43:57,784
of the church is we're in a war.

1245
00:43:57,784 --> 00:43:59,385
Now I don't mean that in a literal

1246
00:43:59,385 --> 00:43:59,885
sense,

1247
00:44:00,184 --> 00:44:01,944
but the history of our church, you know,

1248
00:44:01,944 --> 00:44:03,565
we came out of Missouri, Illinois,

1249
00:44:04,430 --> 00:44:07,550
and, you know, Ohio, New York, and we

1250
00:44:07,550 --> 00:44:10,750
were persecuted, and we were harmed, and we

1251
00:44:10,750 --> 00:44:12,590
we bunkered into the Salt Lake Valley, and

1252
00:44:12,590 --> 00:44:13,970
it was us against the world.

1253
00:44:14,349 --> 00:44:16,474
And that was appropriate and necessary for a

1254
00:44:16,474 --> 00:44:18,394
long time. And having a Brigham Young at

1255
00:44:18,394 --> 00:44:20,528
the top really Yeah. Brigham Young was things

1256
00:44:20,528 --> 00:44:21,914
happen. And you know what? He was he

1257
00:44:21,914 --> 00:44:23,835
was a tough guy. Yeah. He was a

1258
00:44:23,835 --> 00:44:26,635
tough guy. And so if you're literally under

1259
00:44:26,635 --> 00:44:28,474
assault, and there are many members of the

1260
00:44:28,474 --> 00:44:30,155
church, you know, we know we're not under

1261
00:44:30,155 --> 00:44:31,215
assault today

1262
00:44:31,670 --> 00:44:33,690
in the sense that they were in the

1263
00:44:33,750 --> 00:44:36,869
eighteen fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties, where literally

1264
00:44:36,869 --> 00:44:38,090
they were under potential

1265
00:44:38,469 --> 00:44:38,969
physical

1266
00:44:39,910 --> 00:44:42,630
harm. Yeah. Right? But if you believe that

1267
00:44:42,789 --> 00:44:44,010
if that's our heritage,

1268
00:44:44,815 --> 00:44:46,655
and this ball got rolling a long time

1269
00:44:46,655 --> 00:44:47,155
ago,

1270
00:44:47,695 --> 00:44:50,515
and you believe that that you maybe are

1271
00:44:50,974 --> 00:44:51,795
at risk,

1272
00:44:52,414 --> 00:44:54,894
then you want the kind of leaders that

1273
00:44:54,894 --> 00:44:58,050
are all about circling the wagons. Yeah. Right?

1274
00:44:58,050 --> 00:45:01,010
Get those wagons circled, get in line, do

1275
00:45:01,010 --> 00:45:03,829
what's right, don't mess around. You know,

1276
00:45:04,289 --> 00:45:07,090
historians, LDS historians will be aware of the

1277
00:45:07,090 --> 00:45:09,910
sort of the reformation that Brigham Young initiated

1278
00:45:09,969 --> 00:45:11,410
in the late I think it was late

1279
00:45:11,410 --> 00:45:12,469
eight fifth 1850s.

1280
00:45:13,364 --> 00:45:14,724
And, you know, you have to go back

1281
00:45:14,724 --> 00:45:16,804
to the cultural context of that. It was

1282
00:45:16,804 --> 00:45:19,065
it was an uncertain and scary time.

1283
00:45:19,525 --> 00:45:20,505
And he was

1284
00:45:20,804 --> 00:45:21,864
concerned about

1285
00:45:22,244 --> 00:45:23,545
the lack of orthodoxy

1286
00:45:24,485 --> 00:45:26,565
and faithfulness in the members. So he kind

1287
00:45:26,565 --> 00:45:29,510
of initiated a crackdown. Yeah. Right? Now I

1288
00:45:29,510 --> 00:45:31,390
know And most members got rebaptized. Yeah. Yeah.

1289
00:45:31,390 --> 00:45:33,390
Like, to show your name. Once again. Yeah.

1290
00:45:33,390 --> 00:45:36,030
We're gonna we're gonna be sure. Right? And

1291
00:45:36,030 --> 00:45:38,430
so I think that's it's a I believe

1292
00:45:38,430 --> 00:45:40,590
it's a legacy of that that we haven't

1293
00:45:40,590 --> 00:45:43,364
yet completely outgrown. Right? Now, today, we're not

1294
00:45:43,364 --> 00:45:46,005
being threatened physically so much, but I think

1295
00:45:46,005 --> 00:45:48,025
people feel spiritual and ideological

1296
00:45:48,325 --> 00:45:50,885
threats. Yeah. And so, again, there's a bit

1297
00:45:50,885 --> 00:45:52,724
of a circle of the wagons. Remember the

1298
00:45:52,724 --> 00:45:53,945
amygdala, fear.

1299
00:45:54,325 --> 00:45:55,864
Circle the wagons, conformity.

1300
00:45:56,710 --> 00:45:58,550
Let's just make sure that we have a

1301
00:45:58,550 --> 00:46:01,349
lot of leaders that are protectors. Yeah. Right?

1302
00:46:01,349 --> 00:46:03,670
Because protecting and defending of the church feels

1303
00:46:03,670 --> 00:46:05,510
really important if you think you're in a

1304
00:46:05,510 --> 00:46:08,230
battle. Yeah. Right? And, that's what I add

1305
00:46:08,230 --> 00:46:10,215
maybe is more superficial than that. I'm just

1306
00:46:10,215 --> 00:46:11,414
thinking, like, if you go back to your

1307
00:46:11,414 --> 00:46:13,414
thought process maybe as a mission president when

1308
00:46:13,414 --> 00:46:16,235
you were Yeah. Selecting assistance to the president.

1309
00:46:16,295 --> 00:46:19,114
Right? Or as a bishop selecting counselors or

1310
00:46:19,335 --> 00:46:21,575
a bishop selecting a elders quorum president, recite

1311
00:46:21,575 --> 00:46:24,135
president, you're kind of overwhelmed by the experience.

1312
00:46:24,135 --> 00:46:26,619
For sure. You don't need another task. You

1313
00:46:26,619 --> 00:46:28,300
don't need one more person to mentor. So

1314
00:46:28,300 --> 00:46:30,539
it's like, who can I call who's gonna

1315
00:46:30,539 --> 00:46:32,159
get it done? Who can be that soldier?

1316
00:46:32,219 --> 00:46:34,380
Right? And so, naturally, we go to those

1317
00:46:34,380 --> 00:46:36,719
people who are stable, who are orderly.

1318
00:46:37,204 --> 00:46:38,105
Because sometimes

1319
00:46:38,405 --> 00:46:40,485
the seeker, you're like, is he gonna take

1320
00:46:40,485 --> 00:46:42,244
a left turn? You know? Like Yeah. Yeah.

1321
00:46:42,244 --> 00:46:43,764
I mean, bless his heart. I'm glad he's

1322
00:46:43,764 --> 00:46:45,684
here. I'm I appreciate his comments in Sunday

1323
00:46:45,684 --> 00:46:47,684
school, but I need a task done. Right?

1324
00:46:47,684 --> 00:46:49,925
And Yeah. Of course, the spirit's involved in

1325
00:46:49,925 --> 00:46:51,480
all these, but it is, I hope it

1326
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:53,320
gives leaders pause a step back and be

1327
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:54,619
like, 90%?

1328
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:56,679
Like Yeah. Yeah. And What what how am

1329
00:46:56,679 --> 00:46:58,840
I what what's happening that's contributing to that?

1330
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:00,280
Well, you know what I think is is

1331
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:01,579
kinda cool is

1332
00:47:02,039 --> 00:47:03,420
we have presidencies.

1333
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:05,260
Yeah. Right?

1334
00:47:05,565 --> 00:47:06,065
And,

1335
00:47:06,364 --> 00:47:08,304
you know, at a ward level, we have

1336
00:47:08,445 --> 00:47:10,704
many presidencies, right? Every auxiliary

1337
00:47:11,005 --> 00:47:12,864
and the Bishop has a presidency.

1338
00:47:13,484 --> 00:47:14,545
So there's room

1339
00:47:15,005 --> 00:47:15,505
for

1340
00:47:16,204 --> 00:47:17,025
putting leadership

1341
00:47:17,660 --> 00:47:18,880
groups in place

1342
00:47:19,500 --> 00:47:22,480
that maybe can help you reach the entire

1343
00:47:22,539 --> 00:47:25,200
congregation instead of just one particular mindset.

1344
00:47:25,660 --> 00:47:27,180
You know, there's a term I've hear I've

1345
00:47:27,180 --> 00:47:29,599
heard used about the Quorum of the Twelve.

1346
00:47:29,980 --> 00:47:32,780
They often say, Revelation is scattered among us.

1347
00:47:32,780 --> 00:47:35,144
Yeah. Okay. So they sense

1348
00:47:35,525 --> 00:47:38,264
the value in having different perspectives.

1349
00:47:39,525 --> 00:47:40,824
Right. As a mission president

1350
00:47:41,284 --> 00:47:41,784
early,

1351
00:47:42,565 --> 00:47:45,385
you know, my amygdala was firing pretty hard,

1352
00:47:45,525 --> 00:47:46,184
you know,

1353
00:47:46,590 --> 00:47:48,849
I probably was more prone

1354
00:47:49,710 --> 00:47:52,349
to pick protectors for my leadership positions. Yeah.

1355
00:47:52,349 --> 00:47:54,610
Right? As I became more comfortable

1356
00:47:55,150 --> 00:47:56,130
in that calling

1357
00:47:56,510 --> 00:47:57,730
and less fearful,

1358
00:47:58,110 --> 00:47:59,730
and as I got to know the missionaries

1359
00:47:59,869 --> 00:48:02,625
better, and I began to understand how different

1360
00:48:02,625 --> 00:48:04,465
they all were. And then I would see,

1361
00:48:04,465 --> 00:48:06,244
for example, that, you know, that prototypical

1362
00:48:06,864 --> 00:48:09,344
protector zone leader? Yeah. Yeah. Right? You know,

1363
00:48:09,344 --> 00:48:09,925
you know

1364
00:48:10,224 --> 00:48:11,505
I served with many of them. By the

1365
00:48:11,505 --> 00:48:13,825
way, my nickname as a young missionary in

1366
00:48:13,825 --> 00:48:15,980
Sydney, Australia was Captain Jeff.

1367
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:18,360
Okay, so that tells you where I was

1368
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:19,659
at when I was 19.

1369
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:22,940
And I just saw those

1370
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:25,579
protectors not being able to reach

1371
00:48:26,039 --> 00:48:27,739
everybody. Yeah. Right?

1372
00:48:28,045 --> 00:48:30,465
And so I started to blend.

1373
00:48:30,925 --> 00:48:33,105
Yeah. And what I found is

1374
00:48:33,485 --> 00:48:35,005
one of my favorite things to do would

1375
00:48:35,005 --> 00:48:36,925
be to put two zone leaders or two

1376
00:48:36,925 --> 00:48:39,264
sister training leaders together that were completely

1377
00:48:39,565 --> 00:48:42,545
different. Mhmm. Right? A cultivator with a protector

1378
00:48:43,199 --> 00:48:44,339
is a great combination.

1379
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:46,960
Yeah. Right? Because one is ensuring order and

1380
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:48,820
the other is nurturing the missionaries,

1381
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:50,900
right? And both are important.

1382
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:52,719
And so, yeah, I think it's a great

1383
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,199
question. And I Look, I absolutely believe that

1384
00:48:55,199 --> 00:48:57,525
the Holy Ghost leads us and inspires us

1385
00:48:57,605 --> 00:48:59,764
in our leadership, if we're paying attention, if

1386
00:48:59,764 --> 00:49:00,424
we're listening.

1387
00:49:00,885 --> 00:49:02,664
But I also know the Holy Ghost

1388
00:49:03,045 --> 00:49:05,125
doesn't tell you what to do, it responds

1389
00:49:05,125 --> 00:49:07,444
to your questions. Yeah. Okay? I mean, if

1390
00:49:07,444 --> 00:49:08,804
you look at the Book of Mormon and

1391
00:49:08,804 --> 00:49:11,589
Nephi's pattern with the spirit, or the entire

1392
00:49:11,589 --> 00:49:13,750
Doctrine and Covenants is Joseph Smith doing a

1393
00:49:13,750 --> 00:49:16,170
Q and A with the Lord. Yeah. Okay?

1394
00:49:16,389 --> 00:49:18,809
You gotta ask the right questions. And so,

1395
00:49:19,190 --> 00:49:20,869
who are the counselors that I should pick

1396
00:49:20,869 --> 00:49:22,949
that will ensure order and stability in my

1397
00:49:22,949 --> 00:49:23,449
ward?

1398
00:49:23,750 --> 00:49:25,954
That's one answer. Who are the counselors that

1399
00:49:25,954 --> 00:49:27,635
I should pick that will allow me to

1400
00:49:27,635 --> 00:49:28,775
reach and nurture

1401
00:49:29,394 --> 00:49:30,914
as many people in the ward as I

1402
00:49:30,914 --> 00:49:33,394
possibly can? Yeah. That's a different answer. Right.

1403
00:49:33,394 --> 00:49:35,474
Right. K. And I definitely don't wanna because

1404
00:49:35,474 --> 00:49:37,155
one thing just being in the space of

1405
00:49:37,155 --> 00:49:38,535
church leadership often,

1406
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:40,440
I get the the horror stories or you

1407
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:42,280
wouldn't believe what my bishop did, and they're

1408
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:44,360
often these protectors where Yeah. They almost go

1409
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:46,760
to a pharisaical place. But and I just

1410
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:48,360
hesitate. I it breaks my heart when I

1411
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:50,780
hear that we often you know, individuals

1412
00:49:51,155 --> 00:49:52,594
could sort of throwing the bishop under the

1413
00:49:52,594 --> 00:49:54,034
bus where it's like, I think there's more

1414
00:49:54,034 --> 00:49:55,714
going on there. And There there is. There

1415
00:49:55,795 --> 00:49:57,875
there's not and we shouldn't say just because

1416
00:49:57,875 --> 00:49:59,795
there's 90%. To me, that's just like, well,

1417
00:49:59,795 --> 00:50:01,014
that is really interesting

1418
00:50:01,394 --> 00:50:03,635
to consider, but that doesn't mean we should

1419
00:50:03,635 --> 00:50:06,130
never or we should certainly avoid having these

1420
00:50:06,130 --> 00:50:07,489
type of people in roles, you know. But

1421
00:50:07,650 --> 00:50:09,890
Yeah. Let that's a great segue into but

1422
00:50:09,890 --> 00:50:12,630
let let's talk about the value and drawbacks

1423
00:50:12,769 --> 00:50:14,070
of the segments. Right?

1424
00:50:14,449 --> 00:50:14,949
So

1425
00:50:15,489 --> 00:50:16,905
if I think about the bishops

1426
00:50:18,025 --> 00:50:19,465
I had growing up, or the stake presidents,

1427
00:50:19,465 --> 00:50:20,765
or my mission president,

1428
00:50:21,144 --> 00:50:22,985
or the friends I have in the church

1429
00:50:22,985 --> 00:50:23,485
now,

1430
00:50:24,025 --> 00:50:26,505
they're, you know, they're kind of all across

1431
00:50:26,505 --> 00:50:27,164
these segments.

1432
00:50:27,704 --> 00:50:30,824
But for sure, the leaders mostly have been

1433
00:50:30,824 --> 00:50:31,324
protectors,

1434
00:50:31,949 --> 00:50:34,510
But if they're rooted in Christ, they are

1435
00:50:34,510 --> 00:50:35,010
phenomenal.

1436
00:50:35,389 --> 00:50:37,869
So it's not that a protector, you know,

1437
00:50:37,869 --> 00:50:39,789
we need to worry about protectors or we

1438
00:50:39,789 --> 00:50:41,570
shouldn't have protectors as leaders.

1439
00:50:42,030 --> 00:50:43,789
We just would hope that they would be

1440
00:50:43,789 --> 00:50:45,869
rooted in Christ. Because if they're rooted in

1441
00:50:45,869 --> 00:50:46,369
Christ,

1442
00:50:46,734 --> 00:50:49,155
those protective instincts are tempered

1443
00:50:49,775 --> 00:50:52,275
by the teachings and attributes of the savior.

1444
00:50:52,335 --> 00:50:53,775
And so I'm not going to use names,

1445
00:50:53,775 --> 00:50:55,795
but I have a really really good friend

1446
00:50:56,255 --> 00:50:57,234
who is,

1447
00:50:57,855 --> 00:50:59,454
you know, one of my best friends in

1448
00:50:59,454 --> 00:51:00,114
the world

1449
00:51:00,539 --> 00:51:02,079
and a fishing buddy.

1450
00:51:02,539 --> 00:51:04,800
And he is absolutely a protector,

1451
00:51:05,179 --> 00:51:07,280
but he is incredibly Christ like.

1452
00:51:07,660 --> 00:51:10,059
And he is a phenomenal church leader and

1453
00:51:10,059 --> 00:51:11,599
he can connect with anyone.

1454
00:51:11,900 --> 00:51:13,775
Right? And it's because he has

1455
00:51:14,155 --> 00:51:16,234
a mind and heart of Christ in addition

1456
00:51:16,234 --> 00:51:16,734
to,

1457
00:51:17,034 --> 00:51:18,714
you know, that, hey, we need to have

1458
00:51:18,714 --> 00:51:21,295
stability and order. And he's a beautiful, beautiful

1459
00:51:21,514 --> 00:51:22,014
leader.

1460
00:51:22,795 --> 00:51:25,269
The danger would be that if you're a

1461
00:51:25,269 --> 00:51:25,769
protector

1462
00:51:26,150 --> 00:51:27,049
and that mindset

1463
00:51:27,349 --> 00:51:29,349
dominates so much that you forget to be

1464
00:51:29,349 --> 00:51:31,510
led by Christ and then you become a

1465
00:51:31,510 --> 00:51:33,909
Pharisee. Right? And we know how Christ felt

1466
00:51:33,909 --> 00:51:34,969
about those folks.

1467
00:51:35,429 --> 00:51:36,569
But to be balanced,

1468
00:51:36,869 --> 00:51:37,849
every group

1469
00:51:38,309 --> 00:51:39,130
has strengths

1470
00:51:39,855 --> 00:51:42,275
and every group, if not rooted in Christ

1471
00:51:42,494 --> 00:51:45,635
would have big liabilities. Now, cultivators, for example,

1472
00:51:45,934 --> 00:51:48,735
I often find myself drawn to cultivators as

1473
00:51:48,735 --> 00:51:52,014
I get older because my mindset is loving

1474
00:51:52,014 --> 00:51:54,255
with people, you know, nourish them, help them,

1475
00:51:54,255 --> 00:51:56,780
strengthen them. And so I tend

1476
00:51:57,160 --> 00:51:59,079
to have a warm heart for people I

1477
00:51:59,079 --> 00:52:00,300
see that do that,

1478
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:02,840
and it just seems so important right now

1479
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:03,960
to me. And so I love it when

1480
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:06,119
I see leaders and members of the church

1481
00:52:06,119 --> 00:52:08,275
that are inclined that way. But, you know,

1482
00:52:08,275 --> 00:52:10,434
cultivators, if they're not rooted in Christ, they

1483
00:52:10,434 --> 00:52:11,574
can become rebellious

1484
00:52:11,875 --> 00:52:14,355
and disruptive. Yeah. And so you asked about,

1485
00:52:14,355 --> 00:52:16,275
you know, why does this matter? Well, a

1486
00:52:16,275 --> 00:52:18,275
classic conflict that we have in the church

1487
00:52:18,275 --> 00:52:20,855
is the conflict between authority and conscience.

1488
00:52:21,349 --> 00:52:22,949
That would be between a protector and a

1489
00:52:22,949 --> 00:52:25,769
cultivator. Mhmm. Where a protector is saying, look,

1490
00:52:25,829 --> 00:52:26,890
we need to follow

1491
00:52:27,269 --> 00:52:29,829
the doctrines and policies as a church. We're

1492
00:52:29,829 --> 00:52:31,530
gonna do that with exact obedience

1493
00:52:31,989 --> 00:52:33,670
and we're not gonna flex. And so don't

1494
00:52:33,670 --> 00:52:35,670
ask us to flex. And that cultivator might

1495
00:52:35,670 --> 00:52:38,324
say, but this situation is unique and this

1496
00:52:38,324 --> 00:52:38,824
individual,

1497
00:52:39,525 --> 00:52:40,905
there's a, the spirit

1498
00:52:41,285 --> 00:52:43,144
is more important than the letter.

1499
00:52:43,765 --> 00:52:46,164
And the spirit would suggest that we do

1500
00:52:46,164 --> 00:52:48,804
this, not that. And then, then you have

1501
00:52:48,804 --> 00:52:51,385
this conflict of authority and conscience.

1502
00:52:51,900 --> 00:52:54,380
Right? And that conflict, that exact conflict plays

1503
00:52:54,380 --> 00:52:56,059
out in the church every single day all

1504
00:52:56,059 --> 00:52:57,679
around the world. Yeah. Right?

1505
00:52:57,980 --> 00:52:58,480
Now,

1506
00:52:58,859 --> 00:53:00,859
you said this in your own words a

1507
00:53:00,859 --> 00:53:03,659
minute ago. If we all understand that there

1508
00:53:03,659 --> 00:53:06,054
are six types of us, and we all

1509
00:53:06,054 --> 00:53:08,934
understand that each type is essential and necessary

1510
00:53:08,934 --> 00:53:09,835
in the church,

1511
00:53:10,295 --> 00:53:12,535
and we all understand that whatever type we

1512
00:53:12,535 --> 00:53:13,914
are, we have our own liabilities

1513
00:53:14,775 --> 00:53:16,235
and that we're supposed to

1514
00:53:16,535 --> 00:53:18,775
value each other and come together in this

1515
00:53:18,775 --> 00:53:20,315
beautiful, messy harmony.

1516
00:53:21,059 --> 00:53:23,140
Then if you happen to have a protector

1517
00:53:23,140 --> 00:53:25,160
bishop that rubs you the wrong way,

1518
00:53:25,619 --> 00:53:27,539
you can see him in a different light

1519
00:53:27,539 --> 00:53:30,420
from a broader context, from a higher set

1520
00:53:30,420 --> 00:53:32,980
of principles. And you can say, Okay, I

1521
00:53:32,980 --> 00:53:35,559
understand why he maybe is doing that.

1522
00:53:35,894 --> 00:53:38,215
Now, so I'm I'm gonna support him and

1523
00:53:38,215 --> 00:53:38,815
be patient

1524
00:53:39,255 --> 00:53:40,954
Mhmm. In this challenge

1525
00:53:41,574 --> 00:53:42,074
because

1526
00:53:42,454 --> 00:53:44,934
I see the value of the stability and

1527
00:53:44,934 --> 00:53:46,775
protection that he's trying to bring to our

1528
00:53:46,775 --> 00:53:48,929
community. Yeah. Right? Now, I would hope that

1529
00:53:48,929 --> 00:53:50,929
the protective bishop would do the same thing.

1530
00:53:50,929 --> 00:53:52,309
Instead of feeling threatened

1531
00:53:52,849 --> 00:53:54,630
by somebody who's not strictly

1532
00:53:55,090 --> 00:53:55,590
following,

1533
00:53:55,969 --> 00:53:57,989
you know, all the steps on the map,

1534
00:53:58,289 --> 00:54:00,130
they would say, Well, I understand why that

1535
00:54:00,130 --> 00:54:01,989
person might have that perspective.

1536
00:54:02,844 --> 00:54:04,684
I'm not threatened by that. I know that

1537
00:54:04,684 --> 00:54:06,285
their hearts are good. I know that we're

1538
00:54:06,285 --> 00:54:07,965
on the same team and we're working towards

1539
00:54:07,965 --> 00:54:08,864
the same goal.

1540
00:54:09,244 --> 00:54:10,864
And they're worried about

1541
00:54:11,164 --> 00:54:11,664
nurturing

1542
00:54:12,285 --> 00:54:12,945
the community,

1543
00:54:13,565 --> 00:54:16,250
and I'm worried about protection and stability,

1544
00:54:16,630 --> 00:54:18,469
and we actually need both. And so that's

1545
00:54:18,469 --> 00:54:21,190
a good thing. Yeah. Right. And another point

1546
00:54:21,190 --> 00:54:22,710
I feel like is important to make is

1547
00:54:22,710 --> 00:54:25,610
that just because, like, the protect, for instance,

1548
00:54:25,670 --> 00:54:27,829
it doesn't mean they're always an orthodox or

1549
00:54:27,829 --> 00:54:29,925
religious person. Because I've been in or have

1550
00:54:29,925 --> 00:54:32,885
witnessed some groups that are could be more

1551
00:54:32,885 --> 00:54:34,744
critical of the church as an institution.

1552
00:54:35,125 --> 00:54:36,965
Yeah. And they have their own protectors. They

1553
00:54:36,965 --> 00:54:39,045
do. And they have their own orthodoxy. They

1554
00:54:39,045 --> 00:54:41,765
do. And so it's in whatever group where

1555
00:54:41,765 --> 00:54:43,364
I feel like in some groups, I'm like,

1556
00:54:43,364 --> 00:54:45,190
well, I'm more of a connector here. And

1557
00:54:45,190 --> 00:54:47,190
they're suddenly, I meet their protector, and they're

1558
00:54:47,190 --> 00:54:48,710
like, you're doing it wrong. I'm like, says

1559
00:54:48,710 --> 00:54:50,550
who? Or they'll be critical of the church

1560
00:54:50,550 --> 00:54:52,150
of being well, the church is doing it

1561
00:54:52,150 --> 00:54:54,630
wrong. Like, says who? Like, they're just different.

1562
00:54:54,630 --> 00:54:57,349
It's just such a unique dynamic that Well,

1563
00:54:57,349 --> 00:55:00,295
that insight's a really powerful one. That, you

1564
00:55:00,295 --> 00:55:02,795
know, protectors are basically about the orthodoxy

1565
00:55:03,094 --> 00:55:03,594
of

1566
00:55:04,054 --> 00:55:06,454
the dominant group. Right? Yeah. So you could

1567
00:55:06,454 --> 00:55:08,454
be in an incredible this isn't a political

1568
00:55:08,454 --> 00:55:09,914
thing, but let's just say you

1569
00:55:10,295 --> 00:55:11,514
you hop over into

1570
00:55:12,054 --> 00:55:14,875
incredibly liberal progressive political space.

1571
00:55:15,329 --> 00:55:16,630
There can be really

1572
00:55:17,090 --> 00:55:19,730
high levels of conformity and orthodoxy in that

1573
00:55:19,730 --> 00:55:21,730
space. Right? Yeah. Like, to the point that

1574
00:55:21,730 --> 00:55:23,890
if you're not bored, you're you're out of

1575
00:55:23,890 --> 00:55:25,250
here. And the same, of course, would be

1576
00:55:25,250 --> 00:55:27,570
true on the conservative side of the spectrum.

1577
00:55:27,570 --> 00:55:29,590
Yeah. Absolutely. Right? So it's really about

1578
00:55:29,974 --> 00:55:31,434
complying with the expectations

1579
00:55:31,894 --> 00:55:34,295
of the dominant group. Yeah. And our natural

1580
00:55:34,295 --> 00:55:35,894
impulse is how do we bring them all

1581
00:55:35,894 --> 00:55:37,894
into this how can we all be protectors?

1582
00:55:37,894 --> 00:55:40,614
It's just recognizing that we're different and that

1583
00:55:40,614 --> 00:55:42,690
we are all playing a different role here.

1584
00:55:42,849 --> 00:55:44,849
Absolutely. That's good. I pause it. Look. I

1585
00:55:45,010 --> 00:55:47,190
we're not all in one segment. Right?

1586
00:55:47,730 --> 00:55:49,269
We're a blend. But

1587
00:55:49,650 --> 00:55:51,750
which one is your dominant segment?

1588
00:55:52,369 --> 00:55:53,349
Man, I mean,

1589
00:55:53,809 --> 00:55:56,309
definitely, like, there's a lot in the protector

1590
00:55:56,369 --> 00:55:59,045
that I resonate with. Yeah. You know, even

1591
00:55:59,045 --> 00:56:01,444
though people may watch leading saints and, you

1592
00:56:01,444 --> 00:56:03,364
know, we have dynamic discussions like this or

1593
00:56:03,444 --> 00:56:05,444
Yes. I seem a little bit more nuanced

1594
00:56:05,444 --> 00:56:07,204
or but I don't know. Sometimes I show

1595
00:56:07,204 --> 00:56:09,045
up on Sunday, and I like you know?

1596
00:56:09,045 --> 00:56:11,190
You like that order? The the the order,

1597
00:56:11,190 --> 00:56:13,030
the white shirt and tie. If someone's critical

1598
00:56:13,030 --> 00:56:15,190
of the church as an institution online, I'm

1599
00:56:15,190 --> 00:56:16,630
like, hey. Wait a minute here. Yeah. Yeah.

1600
00:56:16,630 --> 00:56:18,789
You know? And there's certain people I'd probably

1601
00:56:18,789 --> 00:56:20,389
never have on the podcast because I'm like,

1602
00:56:20,389 --> 00:56:21,590
I'm not Yeah. I can't go there. Going

1603
00:56:21,590 --> 00:56:23,005
there. Right? Yeah. I can't go there. At

1604
00:56:23,005 --> 00:56:24,765
the same time, I love the I feel

1605
00:56:24,925 --> 00:56:26,844
I resonate a lot with that cultivator of

1606
00:56:27,005 --> 00:56:28,285
Yeah. You know, I don't I don't have

1607
00:56:28,285 --> 00:56:29,644
to do this podcast. I can go get

1608
00:56:29,644 --> 00:56:31,804
a job somewhere else. Or but I love

1609
00:56:31,804 --> 00:56:34,525
the feeling of Zion of coming together. Like,

1610
00:56:34,525 --> 00:56:35,965
what do you think? What does this person

1611
00:56:35,965 --> 00:56:37,965
think? And how can we cultivate together? But,

1612
00:56:37,965 --> 00:56:40,360
definitely, serving right now as a elder school

1613
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:42,519
president, I've really shown up there as a

1614
00:56:42,519 --> 00:56:44,519
connector. There was even feedback I got from

1615
00:56:44,519 --> 00:56:46,440
one elder who's new in the ward, and

1616
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:47,340
he's sorta like,

1617
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:49,000
this is cool. Like, you guys are all

1618
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:51,159
about brotherhood, but Yeah. I don't know if

1619
00:56:51,159 --> 00:56:53,784
I brought someone to the church who's investigating

1620
00:56:53,844 --> 00:56:55,444
the church, it'd be nice to have a

1621
00:56:55,444 --> 00:56:58,005
little more doctrine here. I'm like, oh, a

1622
00:56:58,005 --> 00:57:00,085
little protector here. Alright. You know? Yeah. There

1623
00:57:00,085 --> 00:57:01,364
you go. And to me, I took that

1624
00:57:01,364 --> 00:57:03,204
of, like, oh, like, it helped it helped

1625
00:57:03,204 --> 00:57:05,250
me gain some self awareness being like, yeah.

1626
00:57:05,250 --> 00:57:06,929
Maybe we are maybe we can make some

1627
00:57:06,929 --> 00:57:09,170
adjustments, and that's good. Right? Yeah. Man, I

1628
00:57:09,170 --> 00:57:11,010
like that. And I'm glad you said connector

1629
00:57:11,010 --> 00:57:11,829
because I see

1630
00:57:12,130 --> 00:57:14,690
protector, cultivator, and connector in you. I don't

1631
00:57:14,690 --> 00:57:17,170
know anybody that I think knows more people

1632
00:57:17,170 --> 00:57:19,684
and is making more connections and bringing people

1633
00:57:19,684 --> 00:57:22,005
together more in the community than you. Yeah.

1634
00:57:22,005 --> 00:57:24,005
And so I I appreciate that you see

1635
00:57:24,005 --> 00:57:26,085
that in yourself. I hope so. Yeah. Yeah.

1636
00:57:26,085 --> 00:57:28,244
For sure. Okay. Now now we're things are

1637
00:57:28,244 --> 00:57:29,785
gonna get really interesting. Okay.

1638
00:57:30,170 --> 00:57:33,289
Which segment was Jesus? Oh, man. He was

1639
00:57:33,289 --> 00:57:36,090
all things at all times. I mean, I

1640
00:57:36,730 --> 00:57:38,650
the seeker, I mean By by the way

1641
00:57:38,730 --> 00:57:40,730
the connector. Just so everybody knows. This is

1642
00:57:40,730 --> 00:57:43,255
just Kurt and Jeff Yeah. Spitballing it. You

1643
00:57:43,255 --> 00:57:45,094
know, we we don't really know. We're just

1644
00:57:45,094 --> 00:57:46,775
having some fun and using the model to

1645
00:57:46,775 --> 00:57:48,775
learn. Yeah. I mean, because I I can

1646
00:57:48,775 --> 00:57:50,295
think of moments of even him being the

1647
00:57:50,295 --> 00:57:52,695
protector with the Pharisees, like, sort of protector

1648
00:57:52,695 --> 00:57:55,355
against protector. Right? Like, I need to protect,

1649
00:57:55,670 --> 00:57:57,510
you know, my father's will and you guys

1650
00:57:57,510 --> 00:57:59,349
are not doing it right. And they're looking

1651
00:57:59,349 --> 00:58:00,869
at him like you're not doing it right.

1652
00:58:00,869 --> 00:58:01,930
That's a great insight.

1653
00:58:02,309 --> 00:58:03,369
But I mean, obviously

1654
00:58:03,989 --> 00:58:06,070
the connector at times, but more the explorer

1655
00:58:06,230 --> 00:58:08,070
I'm just seeing, like, there are moments where

1656
00:58:08,070 --> 00:58:09,829
he's connecting people to his gospel. Other times

1657
00:58:09,829 --> 00:58:11,565
he's saying, hey, don't go doc about this.

1658
00:58:11,644 --> 00:58:13,045
Yeah. I'm trying to do something here. Don't

1659
00:58:13,324 --> 00:58:15,565
you know, of maybe the avoider. You need

1660
00:58:15,565 --> 00:58:17,005
to be an avoider for a bit. Yeah.

1661
00:58:17,005 --> 00:58:18,364
You know? Don't go tell people I healed

1662
00:58:18,364 --> 00:58:20,525
you. You know? Yeah. Well, you know, so

1663
00:58:20,525 --> 00:58:21,964
what I'm hearing you say I totally dodged

1664
00:58:21,964 --> 00:58:23,005
that question before you start. No. No. You

1665
00:58:23,005 --> 00:58:24,444
did. You didn't. And what I'm hearing you

1666
00:58:24,444 --> 00:58:26,800
say is there were big pieces of him

1667
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:28,420
in all of these areas. Yeah.

1668
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:29,539
It's interesting.

1669
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:31,300
Was he ever an avoider?

1670
00:58:31,839 --> 00:58:34,480
Man. I mean, he definitely took time to

1671
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:36,880
himself at times. He left for a while,

1672
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:38,800
didn't he? Forty days and forty nights. He

1673
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:40,914
said, look. I need to go now there

1674
00:58:40,914 --> 00:58:43,234
was probably some explorer in him. Right? He

1675
00:58:43,234 --> 00:58:44,375
was searching for

1676
00:58:44,835 --> 00:58:48,034
spiritual guidance and affirmation of his, you know,

1677
00:58:48,034 --> 00:58:50,674
special mission. Yeah. But there were times when

1678
00:58:50,674 --> 00:58:53,734
he stepped away. Yeah. Right? Or he maybe

1679
00:58:54,034 --> 00:58:56,319
went around a city or something. Yeah. I

1680
00:58:56,319 --> 00:58:57,599
don't need to deal with what's going on

1681
00:58:57,599 --> 00:59:00,099
there. Yeah. And, you know, this is just

1682
00:59:00,319 --> 00:59:02,400
my personal opinion. I I see all of

1683
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:03,920
the segments in him and that's what you

1684
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:05,920
would expect. Right? You would expect that kind

1685
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:07,139
of incredible

1686
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:10,260
spiritual and emotional intelligence and agility.

1687
00:59:10,835 --> 00:59:12,835
And yet I think if I see one

1688
00:59:12,835 --> 00:59:13,974
segment that

1689
00:59:14,514 --> 00:59:15,255
seemed heavy

1690
00:59:15,634 --> 00:59:17,014
in him, it was cultivator.

1691
00:59:17,315 --> 00:59:19,234
Mhmm. Right? He was Yeah. He was all

1692
00:59:19,234 --> 00:59:19,734
about

1693
00:59:20,034 --> 00:59:21,014
helping people

1694
00:59:21,714 --> 00:59:24,355
transform themselves. Right? Become a new creature in

1695
00:59:24,355 --> 00:59:24,855
Christ.

1696
00:59:25,460 --> 00:59:27,559
Receive his image in your countenance,

1697
00:59:28,339 --> 00:59:30,679
a mighty change of heart. Those are cultivator

1698
00:59:31,299 --> 00:59:32,199
kind of sentiments.

1699
00:59:32,739 --> 00:59:35,460
And go and sin no more. Yeah. Right?

1700
00:59:35,460 --> 00:59:37,639
Yeah. Take up your bed and walk.

1701
00:59:38,099 --> 00:59:40,565
And so I, I love that part of

1702
00:59:40,565 --> 00:59:41,385
his teachings.

1703
00:59:41,764 --> 00:59:43,065
Now, if you're a cultivator,

1704
00:59:43,444 --> 00:59:45,525
you're gonna really be drawn to that part

1705
00:59:45,525 --> 00:59:46,424
of his ministry.

1706
00:59:46,804 --> 00:59:47,784
If you're a protector,

1707
00:59:48,324 --> 00:59:50,344
you know, you're gonna be drawn to kind

1708
00:59:50,565 --> 00:59:53,284
of priesthood and authority and the church and

1709
00:59:53,284 --> 00:59:55,650
the organization of the church, and they're both

1710
00:59:55,650 --> 00:59:57,889
really important, but that's why we sometimes have

1711
00:59:57,889 --> 00:59:58,550
some tension.

1712
00:59:59,010 --> 01:00:01,170
Right? Love it. K. Love it. Alright. A

1713
01:00:01,170 --> 01:00:03,349
couple more. Okay. Joseph Smith.

1714
01:00:03,889 --> 01:00:06,530
Man. I mean, a seeker. Right? I mean,

1715
01:00:06,530 --> 01:00:08,049
early on in his life, he was seeking

1716
01:00:08,289 --> 01:00:11,005
Absolutely. Early on. Seeker, for sure.

1717
01:00:11,305 --> 01:00:13,305
I mean, he did cultivate a lot. He

1718
01:00:13,305 --> 01:00:14,445
did cultivate a lot. Communities,

1719
01:00:14,824 --> 01:00:16,125
build cities, and they

1720
01:00:16,744 --> 01:00:19,244
explode. Right? He brought back the concept

1721
01:00:19,545 --> 01:00:22,344
of Zion. Mhmm. Right? Building a Zion community.

1722
01:00:22,344 --> 01:00:25,309
That's connecting and cultivating at its best.

1723
01:00:25,690 --> 01:00:28,010
And I'd pause it the the avoider one

1724
01:00:28,010 --> 01:00:30,089
where I can't necessarily think of a moment

1725
01:00:30,089 --> 01:00:32,250
where he was seeking independence, but it's almost

1726
01:00:32,250 --> 01:00:33,690
like sometimes God had to put him in

1727
01:00:33,690 --> 01:00:35,130
a jail cell and be like, you just

1728
01:00:35,130 --> 01:00:36,489
need to think for a few months, you

1729
01:00:36,489 --> 01:00:36,989
know?

1730
01:00:37,994 --> 01:00:38,974
Yeah. Sit tight.

1731
01:00:39,275 --> 01:00:40,954
Yeah. You know, I think those are really

1732
01:00:40,954 --> 01:00:43,514
good observations. I also sense I don't know

1733
01:00:43,514 --> 01:00:44,875
for sure it'd be interesting to talk to

1734
01:00:44,875 --> 01:00:47,114
a really world class Joseph Smith historian and

1735
01:00:47,114 --> 01:00:49,674
ask him this question. But I've read most

1736
01:00:49,674 --> 01:00:52,559
of the biographies on him. And I think

1737
01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:54,340
early on, seeker, explorer,

1738
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:57,300
middle part of his life, and he obviously

1739
01:00:58,079 --> 01:00:59,059
he died young,

1740
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:00,579
cultivator, connector.

1741
01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:02,160
I think there was a fair bit of

1742
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:04,320
protector in him at the end. Well, the

1743
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:06,914
fact that make sure the press is destroyed.

1744
01:01:06,914 --> 01:01:08,755
Right? I mean, which led to his his

1745
01:01:08,755 --> 01:01:09,255
assassination.

1746
01:01:09,715 --> 01:01:12,295
Yeah. Now here's the interesting thing. Why?

1747
01:01:12,595 --> 01:01:14,295
What might have been the arc of his

1748
01:01:15,075 --> 01:01:16,135
dynamic evolution?

1749
01:01:16,914 --> 01:01:18,835
You invest so much of yourself into a

1750
01:01:18,835 --> 01:01:20,630
mission and cause, like and then there's a

1751
01:01:20,630 --> 01:01:22,710
threat to it. You know? And I think

1752
01:01:22,710 --> 01:01:24,950
of that of, like sometimes I I try

1753
01:01:24,950 --> 01:01:26,630
and have a real talk with myself of,

1754
01:01:26,630 --> 01:01:29,590
like, am I just sort of staying in

1755
01:01:29,590 --> 01:01:31,670
this box simply because I've been in this

1756
01:01:31,670 --> 01:01:33,785
box for so long? Yeah. You know? And

1757
01:01:33,785 --> 01:01:35,144
for to step out, that would take a

1758
01:01:35,144 --> 01:01:37,144
lot of courage in admitting that maybe I

1759
01:01:37,144 --> 01:01:38,825
was wrong in the past. But Yeah. And

1760
01:01:38,825 --> 01:01:40,425
I think there's I think God builds that

1761
01:01:40,425 --> 01:01:42,505
into us because, you know, the the cognitive

1762
01:01:42,505 --> 01:01:43,485
biases because

1763
01:01:43,864 --> 01:01:46,109
it does create some stability and and so

1764
01:01:46,109 --> 01:01:48,269
forth. But, yeah. It's Yeah. You know, I

1765
01:01:48,269 --> 01:01:49,710
I think at the end of his life,

1766
01:01:49,710 --> 01:01:52,109
he had something to lose. Mhmm. And if

1767
01:01:52,109 --> 01:01:54,109
you have something to lose, you have something

1768
01:01:54,109 --> 01:01:56,029
to protect. Yeah. Right? So he had built

1769
01:01:56,029 --> 01:01:58,369
this incredible community, this incredible

1770
01:01:58,670 --> 01:01:59,170
church,

1771
01:01:59,644 --> 01:02:01,644
and it was under assault. Yeah. And so

1772
01:02:01,644 --> 01:02:04,204
I think those protective instincts would naturally come

1773
01:02:04,204 --> 01:02:06,364
out in that environment. Maybe you can only

1774
01:02:06,364 --> 01:02:08,284
be driven out so many times before you're

1775
01:02:08,284 --> 01:02:10,204
like, I've had it. So if you're in

1776
01:02:10,204 --> 01:02:13,005
a war, you are a soldier. Yeah. Right?

1777
01:02:13,005 --> 01:02:14,849
And so I I think I can look

1778
01:02:14,849 --> 01:02:16,609
at that with a lot of compassion. I

1779
01:02:16,769 --> 01:02:18,849
what what would I have done under similar

1780
01:02:18,849 --> 01:02:19,349
circumstances?

1781
01:02:19,809 --> 01:02:20,849
And it's easy to go to a place

1782
01:02:20,849 --> 01:02:22,609
of, like, well, what should he have been

1783
01:02:22,609 --> 01:02:24,369
in those? Yeah. You know? Should he have

1784
01:02:24,369 --> 01:02:26,849
maintained that seeking? But and I think that's

1785
01:02:26,849 --> 01:02:29,454
part of the inspiration of our church, the

1786
01:02:29,454 --> 01:02:31,454
revelation that it's not necessarily god tells us

1787
01:02:31,454 --> 01:02:33,295
something, but he sort of changes us Yeah.

1788
01:02:33,454 --> 01:02:34,434
And we act differently

1789
01:02:34,815 --> 01:02:36,655
whether that's more the natural man or god

1790
01:02:36,655 --> 01:02:39,054
inspiring it. You know, god's prepared for those

1791
01:02:39,054 --> 01:02:41,809
things. Yeah. No. That's that's great insight. Hey,

1792
01:02:41,809 --> 01:02:43,030
let's do one more.

1793
01:02:43,489 --> 01:02:45,329
Kurt, I've also spent a lot of time

1794
01:02:45,329 --> 01:02:47,730
looking at the life of Nephi through this

1795
01:02:47,730 --> 01:02:48,230
lens.

1796
01:02:48,769 --> 01:02:50,949
And, you know, Nephi obviously is

1797
01:02:51,329 --> 01:02:52,070
an incredible

1798
01:02:52,530 --> 01:02:55,329
hero to many active members of the church

1799
01:02:55,329 --> 01:02:57,695
and he's, you know, the main

1800
01:02:58,075 --> 01:03:00,394
person in the Book of Mormon, really. Well,

1801
01:03:00,394 --> 01:03:01,994
you know, he's one of the main ones.

1802
01:03:01,994 --> 01:03:03,355
There are several, but he's The one we

1803
01:03:03,355 --> 01:03:04,635
read the most. He's one that we Yeah.

1804
01:03:04,635 --> 01:03:06,474
We always we always read the first two

1805
01:03:06,474 --> 01:03:08,015
chapters of the Book of Mormon

1806
01:03:08,315 --> 01:03:11,579
before we get distracted. Yeah. But, you know,

1807
01:03:11,739 --> 01:03:14,400
how would you describe the ark of Nephi's

1808
01:03:14,460 --> 01:03:14,960
life

1809
01:03:15,739 --> 01:03:16,800
using this model?

1810
01:03:17,180 --> 01:03:18,380
Yeah. And then I think this is a

1811
01:03:18,380 --> 01:03:20,700
good example that I naturally wanna go, well,

1812
01:03:20,700 --> 01:03:22,260
these aren't in any order, right? They're just

1813
01:03:22,380 --> 01:03:23,660
they are what they are because it's not

1814
01:03:23,660 --> 01:03:25,660
like we all start as seekers. No. But,

1815
01:03:25,660 --> 01:03:27,019
you know, I will go and do that's

1816
01:03:27,019 --> 01:03:29,074
a lot of protection. Like By the way,

1817
01:03:29,074 --> 01:03:31,155
I think in our church community, I think

1818
01:03:31,155 --> 01:03:33,394
most of us are brought into the church

1819
01:03:33,394 --> 01:03:35,335
community and raised in the church community,

1820
01:03:35,875 --> 01:03:38,034
and we have the mindset of protector. Right.

1821
01:03:38,034 --> 01:03:40,114
Right? That's where we mostly start. That would

1822
01:03:40,114 --> 01:03:43,139
also be consistent with McLaren's model of stage

1823
01:03:43,139 --> 01:03:44,119
one is simplicity,

1824
01:03:44,659 --> 01:03:45,159
protector.

1825
01:03:45,619 --> 01:03:47,380
And I think that goes you analyze any

1826
01:03:47,380 --> 01:03:47,880
household

1827
01:03:48,260 --> 01:03:50,579
in or out of the church. Parents naturally

1828
01:03:50,579 --> 01:03:52,739
want to protect their child. We're going to

1829
01:03:52,739 --> 01:03:54,420
teach you things that will protect you rather

1830
01:03:54,420 --> 01:03:56,599
than Boundaries. We don't want you go exploring.

1831
01:03:56,900 --> 01:04:00,554
No. No. Boundaries, rules. It's about keeping people

1832
01:04:00,554 --> 01:04:03,675
safe. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So, yeah, that

1833
01:04:03,675 --> 01:04:05,994
protector one resonates. And then just I think

1834
01:04:05,994 --> 01:04:08,655
about, like, shifting to that cultivator of, like,

1835
01:04:08,715 --> 01:04:11,034
I've gotta actually bring this family together. We

1836
01:04:11,034 --> 01:04:12,900
gotta build a boat. We've gotta cross the

1837
01:04:12,900 --> 01:04:14,980
seas. We gotta Yes. You know, a lot

1838
01:04:14,980 --> 01:04:16,900
of that. And then, man, by the end

1839
01:04:16,900 --> 01:04:19,380
is maybe more of that explorer or that

1840
01:04:19,380 --> 01:04:21,299
came out as he was seeking, you know,

1841
01:04:21,299 --> 01:04:23,059
give me my father's vision. You know? What

1842
01:04:23,059 --> 01:04:24,420
can I learn there? Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

1843
01:04:24,420 --> 01:04:27,054
that happened pretty early. That's very seeking behavior.

1844
01:04:27,054 --> 01:04:28,574
Right? I wanna know the things that my

1845
01:04:28,574 --> 01:04:29,074
father

1846
01:04:29,454 --> 01:04:31,695
knows. Right? So we see seeker there. We

1847
01:04:31,695 --> 01:04:33,074
see protector there.

1848
01:04:33,454 --> 01:04:35,855
I think of, you know, second Nephi where

1849
01:04:35,855 --> 01:04:38,015
he refers to himself. He says, oh, wretched

1850
01:04:38,015 --> 01:04:39,775
man that I am. Oh, yeah. That's a

1851
01:04:39,775 --> 01:04:42,389
real moment. That's that's not protector. Yeah. Right?

1852
01:04:42,389 --> 01:04:43,849
That's somebody who is

1853
01:04:44,389 --> 01:04:44,889
reexamining

1854
01:04:45,510 --> 01:04:48,150
themselves. So there's some seeker in that, like,

1855
01:04:48,150 --> 01:04:49,049
who am I?

1856
01:04:49,349 --> 01:04:50,329
What am I doing?

1857
01:04:50,630 --> 01:04:52,869
There's some cultidator in there because he comes

1858
01:04:52,869 --> 01:04:54,150
back at the end of that chapter and

1859
01:04:54,150 --> 01:04:56,409
says, nevertheless, I know in whom I trust.

1860
01:04:56,765 --> 01:04:58,224
And so you see this deep

1861
01:04:58,525 --> 01:05:00,605
abiding faith in him despite the conflict that

1862
01:05:00,605 --> 01:05:01,744
he's personally feeling.

1863
01:05:02,045 --> 01:05:04,765
Mhmm. Later still, I've I've said this before,

1864
01:05:04,765 --> 01:05:06,844
but when he says, I do not know

1865
01:05:06,844 --> 01:05:08,285
the meaning of all things, but I know

1866
01:05:08,285 --> 01:05:10,445
that God loves his children. That's not a

1867
01:05:10,445 --> 01:05:12,970
protector. Yeah. Right? And so, in one of

1868
01:05:12,970 --> 01:05:13,630
our favorite

1869
01:05:13,930 --> 01:05:15,230
prophets, we see

1870
01:05:15,690 --> 01:05:16,190
these

1871
01:05:16,570 --> 01:05:18,670
different segment behaviors and

1872
01:05:18,970 --> 01:05:20,730
so I would hope that if Nephi showed

1873
01:05:20,730 --> 01:05:22,750
up in a Wasatch Front Ward today,

1874
01:05:23,530 --> 01:05:26,329
especially the more mature Nephi later in his

1875
01:05:26,329 --> 01:05:26,829
life,

1876
01:05:27,195 --> 01:05:29,695
that people would see the good in him

1877
01:05:29,994 --> 01:05:30,894
and the value

1878
01:05:31,355 --> 01:05:33,695
even if he may not, at that point,

1879
01:05:33,755 --> 01:05:36,155
be the protector he was when he went

1880
01:05:36,155 --> 01:05:38,394
and got those plates from Laban. Yeah. Yeah.

1881
01:05:38,394 --> 01:05:38,894
Exactly.

1882
01:05:40,155 --> 01:05:43,059
Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense? That make that's great.

1883
01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:44,420
Alright. Super.

1884
01:05:45,280 --> 01:05:46,500
Well, just to kinda

1885
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:48,180
sum up on the model,

1886
01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:51,199
you know, we're part of the same church

1887
01:05:51,199 --> 01:05:53,760
because we deeply share the same faith, but

1888
01:05:53,760 --> 01:05:55,619
we have different belief mindsets

1889
01:05:56,414 --> 01:05:58,515
shaped by different gifts, different experiences,

1890
01:05:59,614 --> 01:06:01,875
and, different spiritual needs.

1891
01:06:02,255 --> 01:06:04,894
And it's okay. Right? It's how God designed

1892
01:06:04,894 --> 01:06:05,394
us.

1893
01:06:05,695 --> 01:06:08,515
The culture is largely shaped by protectors

1894
01:06:09,349 --> 01:06:12,070
and their loyalty to the church brings really

1895
01:06:12,070 --> 01:06:15,269
important stability and strength. It also can push

1896
01:06:15,269 --> 01:06:15,769
conformity

1897
01:06:16,469 --> 01:06:18,550
and can be resistant to change if not

1898
01:06:18,550 --> 01:06:20,570
tempered by Christ like love and humility.

1899
01:06:20,869 --> 01:06:22,710
And so that's part of the crux of

1900
01:06:22,710 --> 01:06:24,329
the tension that we feel.

1901
01:06:24,945 --> 01:06:27,585
Belonging can feel conditional and so many feel

1902
01:06:27,585 --> 01:06:29,985
pressure to conform or hide who they are

1903
01:06:29,985 --> 01:06:31,605
to be accepted and trusted.

1904
01:06:31,985 --> 01:06:34,385
Many leave not because they lack belief, but

1905
01:06:34,385 --> 01:06:36,704
because the culture doesn't make space for their

1906
01:06:36,704 --> 01:06:38,565
way of seeking and learning and growing.

1907
01:06:40,029 --> 01:06:41,869
And my personal belief is that a Christ

1908
01:06:41,869 --> 01:06:42,769
centered culture

1909
01:06:43,389 --> 01:06:44,529
needs to embrace

1910
01:06:45,150 --> 01:06:47,170
the gifts, talents, motivations,

1911
01:06:48,109 --> 01:06:48,609
liabilities

1912
01:06:49,630 --> 01:06:51,710
of all six segments. And that we're at

1913
01:06:51,710 --> 01:06:53,230
our best when we do that through a

1914
01:06:53,230 --> 01:06:54,289
Christ like lens.

1915
01:06:54,684 --> 01:06:55,344
Love it.

1916
01:06:55,724 --> 01:06:57,644
Anything else we need to wrap up? Is

1917
01:06:57,644 --> 01:06:59,184
that, I think that's it. Okay.

1918
01:06:59,804 --> 01:07:01,264
Well, I mean, People

1919
01:07:01,724 --> 01:07:03,964
will maybe, maybe want more. Is there any

1920
01:07:03,964 --> 01:07:06,304
place you would send them or if they're,

1921
01:07:06,605 --> 01:07:08,099
you want to learn more, you know, do

1922
01:07:08,180 --> 01:07:09,539
you wanna talk the body of Christ for

1923
01:07:09,539 --> 01:07:10,920
a minute? Should we do that?

1924
01:07:11,220 --> 01:07:13,880
Yeah. So this is not a new problem.

1925
01:07:14,340 --> 01:07:15,940
Right? This has been a you know, we

1926
01:07:16,019 --> 01:07:18,099
we've got Fiddler on the Roof. Right? Turn

1927
01:07:18,099 --> 01:07:20,420
of the century Russian Jews dealing with the

1928
01:07:20,420 --> 01:07:22,280
tension between tradition and change.

1929
01:07:22,724 --> 01:07:25,045
And today we've talked about the tension from

1930
01:07:25,045 --> 01:07:27,684
our differences. But but one of my favorite

1931
01:07:27,684 --> 01:07:30,405
scriptures is first Corinthians chapter 12, where Paul

1932
01:07:30,405 --> 01:07:31,625
gives us incredible

1933
01:07:32,485 --> 01:07:33,945
doctrine to the Corinthians

1934
01:07:34,325 --> 01:07:36,230
on the body of Christ. And I thought

1935
01:07:36,230 --> 01:07:37,670
we could just We won't read like the

1936
01:07:37,670 --> 01:07:39,269
whole chapter, but I thought we could just

1937
01:07:39,269 --> 01:07:41,510
read pieces of it. And I'm I kinda

1938
01:07:41,510 --> 01:07:42,969
cherry picked the key points.

1939
01:07:43,510 --> 01:07:45,130
So what Paul said is

1940
01:07:45,429 --> 01:07:47,369
Well, what he does here is he addresses

1941
01:07:47,909 --> 01:07:49,530
the origin of our differences,

1942
01:07:50,324 --> 01:07:52,405
This tendency that some of us have to

1943
01:07:52,405 --> 01:07:54,664
withdraw when we feel like we don't belong

1944
01:07:55,204 --> 01:07:57,445
the other tendency. We have to judge people

1945
01:07:57,445 --> 01:07:58,264
who are different,

1946
01:07:58,724 --> 01:08:00,425
particularly those that are on the margins

1947
01:08:00,964 --> 01:08:03,000
and why this all matters. Right? And so

1948
01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:04,519
here's what he said. He said, for the

1949
01:08:04,519 --> 01:08:06,380
body is not one member, but many.

1950
01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:09,099
At least six that I can count. Right?

1951
01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:11,640
And if the ear shall say, because I

1952
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:13,000
am not the eye, I am not of

1953
01:08:13,000 --> 01:08:14,599
the body, is it therefore not of the

1954
01:08:14,599 --> 01:08:17,159
body? Well, no. Of course, the it is

1955
01:08:17,159 --> 01:08:19,215
part of the body. And if the whole

1956
01:08:19,215 --> 01:08:21,234
body were an eye, where were the hearing?

1957
01:08:21,295 --> 01:08:23,694
If the whole were hearing, where were the

1958
01:08:23,694 --> 01:08:24,194
smelling?

1959
01:08:24,654 --> 01:08:26,114
And then he gets into

1960
01:08:26,895 --> 01:08:29,375
where our differences come from. But now hath

1961
01:08:29,375 --> 01:08:31,859
God set the members, every one of them

1962
01:08:31,939 --> 01:08:34,359
in the body as it hath pleased him.

1963
01:08:34,739 --> 01:08:36,579
So why would God do that? Wouldn't it

1964
01:08:36,579 --> 01:08:38,020
be better if we were all just one

1965
01:08:38,020 --> 01:08:41,319
segment, you know, whether we're kingfishers or magpies,

1966
01:08:41,460 --> 01:08:43,800
we're all the same. Yeah. And

1967
01:08:44,215 --> 01:08:46,695
I think if God's objective for us was

1968
01:08:46,695 --> 01:08:47,994
comfort and security,

1969
01:08:48,454 --> 01:08:50,454
that's what he would have done. But that's

1970
01:08:50,454 --> 01:08:53,175
not his plan. His plan is growth and

1971
01:08:53,175 --> 01:08:55,494
change. Yeah. Right? So he made a very

1972
01:08:55,494 --> 01:08:58,375
messy stew that would force us to confront

1973
01:08:58,375 --> 01:08:59,114
these issues.

1974
01:08:59,659 --> 01:09:01,659
And then Paul goes on and says, now

1975
01:09:01,659 --> 01:09:03,899
he's gonna talk about judgment. And the eye

1976
01:09:03,899 --> 01:09:05,820
cannot say under the hand, I have no

1977
01:09:05,820 --> 01:09:07,899
need of thee, nor again the head to

1978
01:09:07,899 --> 01:09:09,659
the feet, I have no need of you.

1979
01:09:09,659 --> 01:09:10,159
Nay,

1980
01:09:10,539 --> 01:09:13,260
much more those members so no judgment. Can't

1981
01:09:13,260 --> 01:09:15,914
do that. And then he says, speaking of

1982
01:09:15,914 --> 01:09:17,835
those who are on the margins, nay, not

1983
01:09:17,835 --> 01:09:20,555
much more those members of the body, which

1984
01:09:20,555 --> 01:09:22,015
seem to be more feeble,

1985
01:09:22,475 --> 01:09:24,795
are necessary. And those members of the body,

1986
01:09:24,795 --> 01:09:26,494
which seem to be less honorable

1987
01:09:27,239 --> 01:09:30,359
upon these we bestow more abundant honor, and

1988
01:09:30,359 --> 01:09:33,420
our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

1989
01:09:34,039 --> 01:09:35,720
K. And so he has a very strong

1990
01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:38,300
perspective on the so called least of us.

1991
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:40,564
Right? And then he says, for our comely

1992
01:09:40,564 --> 01:09:42,645
parts have no need, but God hath tempered

1993
01:09:42,645 --> 01:09:45,385
the body together, having given more abundant

1994
01:09:45,925 --> 01:09:47,944
honor to that part which lacked.

1995
01:09:48,244 --> 01:09:50,645
And then he tells us why. That there

1996
01:09:50,645 --> 01:09:52,859
should be no schism in the body, but

1997
01:09:52,859 --> 01:09:55,420
the members should have the same care one

1998
01:09:55,420 --> 01:09:56,159
for another.

1999
01:09:57,020 --> 01:09:59,260
That sounds like a great church. Yeah. Right?

2000
01:09:59,260 --> 01:10:00,460
That sounds like a great church. And I

2001
01:10:00,460 --> 01:10:03,260
love the paradox of being we're united because

2002
01:10:03,260 --> 01:10:05,444
we're different. Yeah. And thinking about this, I

2003
01:10:05,524 --> 01:10:07,284
I couldn't wait to ask you this question

2004
01:10:07,284 --> 01:10:08,425
because I I respect

2005
01:10:08,804 --> 01:10:10,885
your connection to the community. I respect the

2006
01:10:10,885 --> 01:10:12,484
service you've had as a Bishop. You're an

2007
01:10:12,484 --> 01:10:14,024
elders quorum president now.

2008
01:10:14,404 --> 01:10:17,125
So do you think Paul's just being nice?

2009
01:10:17,125 --> 01:10:19,465
Okay. These feeble and comely parts,

2010
01:10:19,969 --> 01:10:21,810
they really matter a lot more than you,

2011
01:10:21,810 --> 01:10:24,289
unfeagle and un and comely parts? Yeah. Or

2012
01:10:24,289 --> 01:10:26,630
is there some deeper spiritual meaning in that?

2013
01:10:26,770 --> 01:10:28,130
I bet there is. Yeah. What do you

2014
01:10:28,210 --> 01:10:29,890
I mean, what do you think? Well, just

2015
01:10:29,890 --> 01:10:32,609
the, you know, the person so outside the

2016
01:10:32,609 --> 01:10:35,125
box that comes in and and engages with

2017
01:10:35,125 --> 01:10:37,524
the community that there's there's a deeper lesson

2018
01:10:37,524 --> 01:10:40,024
there than the person who has all wisdom

2019
01:10:40,164 --> 01:10:41,845
walks in to Yeah. You know, teach a

2020
01:10:41,845 --> 01:10:42,824
lesson. Right?

2021
01:10:43,284 --> 01:10:46,324
So it's stills that we naturally wanna cast

2022
01:10:46,324 --> 01:10:48,905
off to that we need to gather. Yeah.

2023
01:10:49,189 --> 01:10:50,869
You know, I I think that's right. I

2024
01:10:50,869 --> 01:10:53,429
had a an incredibly powerful experience with one

2025
01:10:53,429 --> 01:10:55,109
of my missionaries once. Now this was a

2026
01:10:55,109 --> 01:10:57,210
young man that is on the spectrum

2027
01:10:57,829 --> 01:10:59,590
and he came into our mission. You know,

2028
01:10:59,590 --> 01:11:01,750
from a clinical perspective, you could have argued,

2029
01:11:01,750 --> 01:11:04,234
well, maybe he shouldn't have served a proselyting

2030
01:11:04,295 --> 01:11:05,895
mission. Maybe he should have been a service

2031
01:11:05,895 --> 01:11:06,395
missionary,

2032
01:11:06,854 --> 01:11:08,715
but he was called and he came

2033
01:11:09,094 --> 01:11:11,335
and, you know, we stay connected to him.

2034
01:11:11,335 --> 01:11:13,914
We love him. He's an awesome young man,

2035
01:11:14,215 --> 01:11:16,534
but he was really, really struggling in the

2036
01:11:16,534 --> 01:11:18,680
work. And so I think it's not inaccurate

2037
01:11:18,739 --> 01:11:20,900
to say he fit the description of, you

2038
01:11:20,900 --> 01:11:23,079
know, a feeble and uncomely part.

2039
01:11:23,380 --> 01:11:25,140
And I could give you examples, but won't.

2040
01:11:25,140 --> 01:11:27,300
But I think that was a on the

2041
01:11:27,300 --> 01:11:27,800
surface,

2042
01:11:28,180 --> 01:11:30,914
an apt description of him. And I was

2043
01:11:30,914 --> 01:11:32,914
relatively new and we had quite a few

2044
01:11:32,914 --> 01:11:34,755
missionaries like that. And I was struggling as

2045
01:11:34,755 --> 01:11:37,255
a mission president with, why are they here?

2046
01:11:37,314 --> 01:11:38,514
You know, why are they here? They can't

2047
01:11:38,514 --> 01:11:40,534
do the work. They're actually a liability.

2048
01:11:41,074 --> 01:11:43,170
You know, we don't need them. Mhmm. I

2049
01:11:43,170 --> 01:11:45,489
was the eye saying to the hand, We

2050
01:11:45,489 --> 01:11:47,170
have no need of thee. And then we

2051
01:11:47,170 --> 01:11:49,810
had a testimony meeting our first Christmas in

2052
01:11:49,810 --> 01:11:51,729
the mission, and he got up and bore

2053
01:11:51,729 --> 01:11:52,390
his testimony.

2054
01:11:53,090 --> 01:11:54,710
And I couldn't believe it.

2055
01:11:55,425 --> 01:11:57,925
So this great young man that has

2056
01:11:58,305 --> 01:12:00,324
all kinds of liabilities, you

2057
01:12:00,784 --> 01:12:01,284
know,

2058
01:12:01,744 --> 01:12:05,045
physical to its smaller degree, but mental, emotional,

2059
01:12:05,104 --> 01:12:05,604
spiritual,

2060
01:12:06,385 --> 01:12:08,704
and had a 100 reasons not to serve

2061
01:12:08,704 --> 01:12:09,364
a mission,

2062
01:12:09,710 --> 01:12:10,609
And they were good

2063
01:12:11,149 --> 01:12:12,529
ones. And yet he came.

2064
01:12:13,550 --> 01:12:16,210
And the very fact that he came

2065
01:12:16,829 --> 01:12:17,969
was the message.

2066
01:12:18,510 --> 01:12:19,949
And so I watched him stand up and

2067
01:12:19,949 --> 01:12:21,010
he bore this incredible

2068
01:12:21,710 --> 01:12:24,289
testimony in his feeble way

2069
01:12:24,814 --> 01:12:25,715
of the atonement.

2070
01:12:27,295 --> 01:12:28,835
And he was the message,

2071
01:12:29,295 --> 01:12:31,215
right? And he said, If it were not

2072
01:12:31,215 --> 01:12:34,514
for the atonement, I couldn't stand here today.

2073
01:12:34,895 --> 01:12:37,054
And I believed him. I mean, it was

2074
01:12:37,054 --> 01:12:38,914
so evident that that was true.

2075
01:12:39,329 --> 01:12:41,170
And the spirit kind of nudged me and

2076
01:12:41,170 --> 01:12:42,229
just said, Hey knucklehead,

2077
01:12:43,010 --> 01:12:44,229
that's why they're here.

2078
01:12:44,689 --> 01:12:47,489
Right? The most powerful sermons I have ever

2079
01:12:47,489 --> 01:12:50,929
heard on compassion have not been people giving

2080
01:12:50,929 --> 01:12:52,149
lectures on compassion.

2081
01:12:52,954 --> 01:12:55,914
They are sitting in the presence of people

2082
01:12:55,914 --> 01:12:58,014
who are giving and receiving compassion.

2083
01:12:58,394 --> 01:13:00,654
And so if we have no feeble, uncomely

2084
01:13:01,114 --> 01:13:02,494
parts in the body,

2085
01:13:02,875 --> 01:13:04,814
how will we have any of those experiences

2086
01:13:05,034 --> 01:13:08,094
where we're required to give or receive compassion?

2087
01:13:08,539 --> 01:13:11,199
And will we really understand what the gospel's

2088
01:13:11,260 --> 01:13:13,739
all about if our concept of it is

2089
01:13:13,739 --> 01:13:14,239
just

2090
01:13:14,539 --> 01:13:17,600
abstractions that come across the pulpit? Verbal descriptions

2091
01:13:17,739 --> 01:13:20,960
of compassion instead of experiencing compassion firsthand.

2092
01:13:21,395 --> 01:13:23,574
And so I there's a method to

2093
01:13:24,114 --> 01:13:26,354
God's madness, if you will, that that goes

2094
01:13:26,354 --> 01:13:29,414
beyond conventional understanding. And I think that's why

2095
01:13:29,715 --> 01:13:31,654
it's so critical that we

2096
01:13:32,114 --> 01:13:32,614
embrace

2097
01:13:33,154 --> 01:13:35,760
everyone in our church community. Yeah. And there's

2098
01:13:35,880 --> 01:13:37,560
you know, I often say we worship a

2099
01:13:37,560 --> 01:13:41,000
god of paradox where so wouldn't god you

2100
01:13:41,000 --> 01:13:42,600
know, we we worship a god of order.

2101
01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:44,679
Right? What does he want order in his

2102
01:13:44,679 --> 01:13:46,600
church and Yeah. Everything to be out should

2103
01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:49,555
and and process to happen and but, yes,

2104
01:13:49,555 --> 01:13:53,074
just this paradox. He he'll insert these dynamics

2105
01:13:53,074 --> 01:13:54,675
and often they're people where it's like Yeah.

2106
01:13:54,835 --> 01:13:56,835
Wait a minute. Like, this one doesn't fit.

2107
01:13:56,835 --> 01:13:59,155
Like, send this one back. You know? Like

2108
01:13:59,395 --> 01:14:02,220
but in reality, it was there's so much

2109
01:14:02,220 --> 01:14:05,020
purpose in in them participating and and for

2110
01:14:05,020 --> 01:14:06,859
that wrestle of how can I find a

2111
01:14:06,859 --> 01:14:08,220
place for this? And and my hope is

2112
01:14:08,220 --> 01:14:10,220
that we don't just default to, oh, yeah.

2113
01:14:10,220 --> 01:14:12,319
We'll find, like, something on on the fringes

2114
01:14:12,779 --> 01:14:14,744
for them to do. And but what if

2115
01:14:14,744 --> 01:14:17,005
we brought them towards the center? Yeah. Yes.

2116
01:14:17,064 --> 01:14:19,465
And involve them more than we're even comfortable

2117
01:14:19,465 --> 01:14:21,385
with. Right? And what if it gets really

2118
01:14:21,385 --> 01:14:23,545
messy? Or what if the the lesson doesn't

2119
01:14:23,545 --> 01:14:25,945
go well? Or what if the numbers tank?

2120
01:14:25,945 --> 01:14:28,639
You know? Yeah. But there's transformation in that.

2121
01:14:28,639 --> 01:14:30,239
No. There is. You know, again, if going

2122
01:14:30,239 --> 01:14:32,079
back to kinda mindset because you used that

2123
01:14:32,079 --> 01:14:33,600
word a while ago and I think it's

2124
01:14:33,600 --> 01:14:35,679
so good. If you believe you're in a

2125
01:14:35,679 --> 01:14:37,380
war and the church is a fortress,

2126
01:14:38,159 --> 01:14:38,659
then

2127
01:14:38,960 --> 01:14:41,119
anybody that can't carry a musket needs to

2128
01:14:41,119 --> 01:14:41,779
sit down.

2129
01:14:42,155 --> 01:14:44,235
Yeah. So is that what you believe? Right?

2130
01:14:44,235 --> 01:14:45,755
Is that what you believe the church community

2131
01:14:45,755 --> 01:14:47,595
is supposed to be about? Right? Or is

2132
01:14:47,595 --> 01:14:50,475
there something more transcendent than that, that it's

2133
01:14:50,475 --> 01:14:54,155
about? Love it. Yeah. Well, so, just wrapping

2134
01:14:54,155 --> 01:14:55,675
up on the body of Christ. What, you

2135
01:14:55,675 --> 01:14:56,494
know, here's

2136
01:14:56,899 --> 01:14:59,699
me speculating again a little bit. What might

2137
01:14:59,699 --> 01:15:01,000
Paul say to us,

2138
01:15:01,380 --> 01:15:03,780
you know, today, if he happened to roll

2139
01:15:03,780 --> 01:15:04,280
through,

2140
01:15:04,659 --> 01:15:07,060
you know, the church here in The United

2141
01:15:07,060 --> 01:15:08,840
States or in the Wasatch Front?

2142
01:15:09,204 --> 01:15:10,804
I think he'd say we're meant to be

2143
01:15:10,804 --> 01:15:11,304
different.

2144
01:15:11,604 --> 01:15:14,164
Strict uniformity weakens the body of Christ, and

2145
01:15:14,164 --> 01:15:16,664
it's designed by God to be diverse.

2146
01:15:17,125 --> 01:15:18,505
Every member is essential.

2147
01:15:18,885 --> 01:15:20,104
No part is unnecessary

2148
01:15:20,484 --> 01:15:22,265
or inferior in God's plan.

2149
01:15:22,670 --> 01:15:24,590
You know, Christ taught this a lot. The

2150
01:15:24,590 --> 01:15:26,829
one versus the '99, the least will be

2151
01:15:26,829 --> 01:15:28,750
the greatest. He was trying to point this

2152
01:15:28,750 --> 01:15:30,510
out to us. I don't think he was

2153
01:15:30,510 --> 01:15:31,969
just being creatively,

2154
01:15:32,590 --> 01:15:33,949
you know, I don't think he was being

2155
01:15:33,949 --> 01:15:35,550
creative in his speech. I think he was

2156
01:15:35,550 --> 01:15:37,329
teaching deep spiritual principles.

2157
01:15:38,085 --> 01:15:39,625
When one group dominates,

2158
01:15:40,324 --> 01:15:43,545
other groups are silenced, overlooked, or spiritually underfed.

2159
01:15:44,244 --> 01:15:47,045
Without Christ like charity, the culture becomes cold,

2160
01:15:47,045 --> 01:15:48,265
conditional, and performative.

2161
01:15:49,284 --> 01:15:51,909
And, a thriving church honors all its members,

2162
01:15:51,909 --> 01:15:54,069
making space for everyone to grow, serve, and

2163
01:15:54,069 --> 01:15:56,250
belong. I think that's what Paul might say.

2164
01:15:56,470 --> 01:15:58,949
Yeah. And then there's no five step plan

2165
01:15:58,949 --> 01:16:00,869
or how to implement this, but just these

2166
01:16:00,869 --> 01:16:01,369
principles

2167
01:16:01,829 --> 01:16:02,409
of even

2168
01:16:02,789 --> 01:16:05,350
inviting your ward, yourself, your family to sit

2169
01:16:05,350 --> 01:16:07,095
with us and say, wow. Now how can

2170
01:16:07,095 --> 01:16:08,635
we get in that mindset where

2171
01:16:09,015 --> 01:16:11,095
we're not looking necessarily for one of those

2172
01:16:11,095 --> 01:16:13,215
six things that fit in that box, but

2173
01:16:13,335 --> 01:16:15,655
Yeah. There's a deeper purpose here. I agree.

2174
01:16:15,655 --> 01:16:18,135
I agree. By the way, our modern Paul

2175
01:16:18,135 --> 01:16:20,614
said similar things, so I'm just gonna toss

2176
01:16:20,614 --> 01:16:23,060
a couple out. President Jean Bingham

2177
01:16:23,439 --> 01:16:26,579
back in 2020 said, unity does not require

2178
01:16:26,640 --> 01:16:27,140
sameness.

2179
01:16:28,159 --> 01:16:29,840
We can be united in our love for

2180
01:16:29,840 --> 01:16:32,320
the savior even as we celebrate the diversity

2181
01:16:32,320 --> 01:16:33,300
he has created.

2182
01:16:33,775 --> 01:16:35,155
And then elder Uchtdorf

2183
01:16:35,695 --> 01:16:37,695
said, we are diverse. We are different. We

2184
01:16:37,695 --> 01:16:39,375
are not supposed to be the same. When

2185
01:16:39,375 --> 01:16:42,015
we rejoice in and celebrate diversity, we will

2186
01:16:42,015 --> 01:16:44,095
come to understand that unity is not the

2187
01:16:44,095 --> 01:16:45,074
same as uniformity.

2188
01:16:46,010 --> 01:16:47,630
And so our church leaders

2189
01:16:48,170 --> 01:16:50,650
are poking at this. Right? They're encouraging us

2190
01:16:50,650 --> 01:16:52,270
to step back and think.

2191
01:16:52,570 --> 01:16:53,550
Yeah. It's powerful.

2192
01:16:54,010 --> 01:16:55,310
Any other point principle

2193
01:16:55,930 --> 01:16:57,689
that we do there? No. That's that's it.

2194
01:16:57,689 --> 01:16:59,974
That's it on that. You know, I'd love

2195
01:16:59,974 --> 01:17:01,175
to share a story with you if I

2196
01:17:01,175 --> 01:17:03,274
could. Yeah. Let's end on that story. So,

2197
01:17:03,414 --> 01:17:05,675
Kurt, if it's okay, I'm gonna read this.

2198
01:17:05,974 --> 01:17:07,974
So I the reason I'm gonna read it

2199
01:17:07,974 --> 01:17:10,554
is I I had this quite profound experience

2200
01:17:10,694 --> 01:17:12,074
back in 2018,

2201
01:17:12,539 --> 01:17:13,039
and

2202
01:17:13,420 --> 01:17:15,579
I was moved enough by it and instructed

2203
01:17:15,579 --> 01:17:17,279
enough by it that I just immediately

2204
01:17:17,979 --> 01:17:19,039
put it on paper.

2205
01:17:19,500 --> 01:17:21,739
And so there's, there's a spirit and a

2206
01:17:21,739 --> 01:17:24,059
depth to the writing that I can't convey

2207
01:17:24,059 --> 01:17:25,659
if I just tell the story. And so

2208
01:17:25,659 --> 01:17:27,260
if you'll indulge me, I'd just like to

2209
01:17:27,260 --> 01:17:29,954
read it to you. So in March 2018,

2210
01:17:29,954 --> 01:17:32,375
I had the opportunity to attend the USA

2211
01:17:32,515 --> 01:17:35,734
masters track and field national championships in Landover,

2212
01:17:35,795 --> 01:17:36,295
Maryland,

2213
01:17:36,755 --> 01:17:38,454
attract meet for older people.

2214
01:17:38,994 --> 01:17:40,675
As some like to say, I took my

2215
01:17:40,675 --> 01:17:43,350
middle son, Zach. He was excited to cheer

2216
01:17:43,350 --> 01:17:44,570
me on in my competition.

2217
01:17:45,270 --> 01:17:47,189
And this happened to be during the time

2218
01:17:47,189 --> 01:17:49,430
that I was doing a ton of research

2219
01:17:49,430 --> 01:17:51,689
on the way religious culture and communication

2220
01:17:52,070 --> 01:17:54,409
influenced both how people come to belief

2221
01:17:54,789 --> 01:17:56,810
and their relationship with their churches.

2222
01:17:57,274 --> 01:17:59,194
I'd learned a lot about this dynamic and

2223
01:17:59,194 --> 01:18:01,835
about the factors that cause both conversion and

2224
01:18:01,835 --> 01:18:02,335
disaffiliation

2225
01:18:02,715 --> 01:18:03,534
in the church.

2226
01:18:03,835 --> 01:18:05,994
And I was personally wrestling with trying to

2227
01:18:05,994 --> 01:18:09,054
better understand the relative importance of our history,

2228
01:18:09,690 --> 01:18:12,409
doctrines and policies, and our culture in all

2229
01:18:12,409 --> 01:18:14,970
of this. And I certainly wasn't expecting to

2230
01:18:14,970 --> 01:18:17,449
get any insights that attract me. Well, Zach

2231
01:18:17,449 --> 01:18:19,210
and I settled into our seats to watch

2232
01:18:19,210 --> 01:18:20,570
some of the events. And by the way,

2233
01:18:20,570 --> 01:18:21,390
I was competing,

2234
01:18:21,875 --> 01:18:23,734
but this was before my competition.

2235
01:18:24,515 --> 01:18:26,675
You may find this hard to believe, but

2236
01:18:26,675 --> 01:18:28,774
Masters track and field is extraordinarily

2237
01:18:29,154 --> 01:18:29,654
underrated.

2238
01:18:30,354 --> 01:18:32,994
And so throughout the championships, each event offered

2239
01:18:32,994 --> 01:18:35,414
its own mix of drama, awe, and inspiration.

2240
01:18:36,170 --> 01:18:38,329
In this indoor arena in front of about

2241
01:18:38,329 --> 01:18:41,609
3,000 spectators, men and women well into their

2242
01:18:41,609 --> 01:18:42,750
eighties and nineties,

2243
01:18:43,529 --> 01:18:46,270
elite world class athletes even at that age.

2244
01:18:46,889 --> 01:18:49,609
Others are typical kind of weekend warriors who

2245
01:18:49,609 --> 01:18:52,114
come with braces and wraps, and visible signs

2246
01:18:52,114 --> 01:18:53,095
of health issues,

2247
01:18:53,555 --> 01:18:57,175
nursing injuries, or just significant maladies of aging.

2248
01:18:57,635 --> 01:18:59,815
And all of them from the most elite

2249
01:18:59,954 --> 01:19:02,755
to the most humble walk together into the

2250
01:19:02,755 --> 01:19:03,895
arena of competition.

2251
01:19:04,520 --> 01:19:07,000
As the events transpired, Zach and I slowly

2252
01:19:07,000 --> 01:19:08,920
began to see things as they really were

2253
01:19:08,920 --> 01:19:10,600
at this meet. It became clear that there

2254
01:19:10,600 --> 01:19:13,319
was something more important and powerful taking place

2255
01:19:13,319 --> 01:19:15,159
here than a series of contests to see

2256
01:19:15,159 --> 01:19:17,925
who would win and who would lose. This

2257
01:19:17,925 --> 01:19:20,725
was a gathering place for people from every

2258
01:19:20,725 --> 01:19:22,725
walk of life wanting to be part of

2259
01:19:22,725 --> 01:19:23,864
something that matters,

2260
01:19:24,244 --> 01:19:26,645
to overcome whatever barrier was in front of

2261
01:19:26,645 --> 01:19:27,545
them, age,

2262
01:19:27,845 --> 01:19:29,145
injury, obesity,

2263
01:19:30,020 --> 01:19:30,520
loneliness,

2264
01:19:31,140 --> 01:19:31,640
anxiety,

2265
01:19:32,100 --> 01:19:32,600
discouragement,

2266
01:19:32,900 --> 01:19:34,039
and self doubt,

2267
01:19:34,340 --> 01:19:36,500
or to simply be the best version of

2268
01:19:36,500 --> 01:19:38,680
who they could be, to show up,

2269
01:19:39,060 --> 01:19:39,800
to try,

2270
01:19:40,340 --> 01:19:41,000
to sweat,

2271
01:19:41,300 --> 01:19:43,079
to face fear, to laugh,

2272
01:19:43,534 --> 01:19:44,354
to cry,

2273
01:19:44,734 --> 01:19:46,515
to hurt, to finish,

2274
01:19:47,055 --> 01:19:49,774
to win, yes, but far more often, to

2275
01:19:49,774 --> 01:19:50,274
lose.

2276
01:19:50,655 --> 01:19:53,074
So to remind themselves that they are alive

2277
01:19:53,135 --> 01:19:55,295
and that life is worth living and people

2278
01:19:55,295 --> 01:19:58,239
are good. Of course, attract meat isn't the

2279
01:19:58,239 --> 01:20:00,239
church, but it's been my experience that a

2280
01:20:00,239 --> 01:20:01,920
significant part of what we want and need

2281
01:20:01,920 --> 01:20:04,159
from our church experience is similar. To be

2282
01:20:04,159 --> 01:20:05,939
part of a community and a mission

2283
01:20:06,320 --> 01:20:07,939
that is important and matters

2284
01:20:08,255 --> 01:20:09,854
and where we feel a sense of being

2285
01:20:09,854 --> 01:20:12,574
needed and belonging, a place where we can

2286
01:20:12,574 --> 01:20:15,635
both give light and receive light and love,

2287
01:20:15,694 --> 01:20:17,614
and to be drawn to the highest and

2288
01:20:17,614 --> 01:20:19,395
most noble part of our nature,

2289
01:20:19,774 --> 01:20:22,034
a place to be gathered and embraced.

2290
01:20:22,430 --> 01:20:24,350
There was one race that helped me see

2291
01:20:24,350 --> 01:20:25,010
the competition

2292
01:20:25,789 --> 01:20:28,270
as the sacred ground that it is. It

2293
01:20:28,270 --> 01:20:30,609
was the men's 80 and over

2294
01:20:31,310 --> 01:20:32,369
1,500

2295
01:20:32,510 --> 01:20:34,829
meter run. Okay. That's a little less than

2296
01:20:34,829 --> 01:20:35,409
a mile.

2297
01:20:35,895 --> 01:20:37,434
12 competitors lined

2298
01:20:37,895 --> 01:20:39,594
up, including Orville Rogers,

2299
01:20:39,974 --> 01:20:42,154
a man who was 100 years old,

2300
01:20:42,534 --> 01:20:45,354
the same age president Nelson is now. Wow.

2301
01:20:45,654 --> 01:20:48,135
K. When the starter fired his pistol, the

2302
01:20:48,135 --> 01:20:49,354
runners took off

2303
01:20:49,699 --> 01:20:52,920
with Orville settling immediately into last place.

2304
01:20:53,699 --> 01:20:56,420
He remained there for the entire race, shuffling

2305
01:20:56,420 --> 01:20:57,640
along very slowly

2306
01:20:58,100 --> 01:21:01,380
as the other competitors lapped him multiple times.

2307
01:21:01,380 --> 01:21:04,314
Wow. The winner of the race, Oliver Grant,

2308
01:21:04,775 --> 01:21:06,074
age 82,

2309
01:21:06,454 --> 01:21:09,435
finished in seven minutes and fifty four seconds.

2310
01:21:10,135 --> 01:21:13,195
Try that. Yeah. You know, he was 82.

2311
01:21:13,414 --> 01:21:15,895
An astonishing time for his age when Al

2312
01:21:15,895 --> 01:21:19,020
Ray, the last runner besides Orville, finished at

2313
01:21:19,020 --> 01:21:20,000
fourteen minutes.

2314
01:21:20,699 --> 01:21:23,020
The crowd was certainly aware that Orville still

2315
01:21:23,020 --> 01:21:25,020
had about two and a half laps to

2316
01:21:25,020 --> 01:21:28,859
go. As he continued, nearly 3,000 spectators sat

2317
01:21:28,859 --> 01:21:31,420
quietly watching him slowly make his way around

2318
01:21:31,420 --> 01:21:32,159
the track,

2319
01:21:32,574 --> 01:21:33,074
completely,

2320
01:21:33,694 --> 01:21:34,194
silently,

2321
01:21:34,574 --> 01:21:35,554
and uncomfortably

2322
01:21:36,255 --> 01:21:36,994
by himself.

2323
01:21:37,534 --> 01:21:39,854
When the final lap began, the crowd rose

2324
01:21:39,854 --> 01:21:40,675
to their feet,

2325
01:21:41,054 --> 01:21:42,114
cheering and applauding.

2326
01:21:42,494 --> 01:21:44,175
By the time he hit the home stretch,

2327
01:21:44,175 --> 01:21:45,395
the crowd was roaring.

2328
01:21:46,119 --> 01:21:48,199
Roughly 30 meters from the finish line, he

2329
01:21:48,199 --> 01:21:50,439
called on his very rest last reserves of

2330
01:21:50,439 --> 01:21:52,779
energy, moving from a a slow shuffle

2331
01:21:53,239 --> 01:21:55,340
to something resembling a sprint.

2332
01:21:55,640 --> 01:21:57,960
The crowd erupted with delight as he crossed

2333
01:21:57,960 --> 01:22:00,199
the finish line with a time of twenty

2334
01:22:00,199 --> 01:22:00,699
minutes

2335
01:22:01,024 --> 01:22:02,645
and point nine one seconds

2336
01:22:03,024 --> 01:22:05,764
and was welcomed and embraced by his competitors

2337
01:22:05,904 --> 01:22:07,604
waiting beyond the finish line.

2338
01:22:08,064 --> 01:22:10,864
Orville humbly and gratefully waved to the crowd

2339
01:22:10,864 --> 01:22:12,784
and walked off the track with his new

2340
01:22:12,784 --> 01:22:13,284
friends.

2341
01:22:13,699 --> 01:22:15,780
It was astonishing to see a 100 year

2342
01:22:15,780 --> 01:22:16,840
old man do this.

2343
01:22:17,220 --> 01:22:18,739
I didn't know the full extent of the

2344
01:22:18,739 --> 01:22:20,420
story until the next day when I read

2345
01:22:20,420 --> 01:22:23,079
about mister Rogers' entire performance.

2346
01:22:23,939 --> 01:22:26,760
Incredibly, the 1,500 meter race was Orville's

2347
01:22:27,465 --> 01:22:29,405
fifth race of the competition.

2348
01:22:29,945 --> 01:22:31,885
He'd already competed in the 60,

2349
01:22:32,345 --> 01:22:33,244
the 200,

2350
01:22:33,385 --> 01:22:35,405
the 400, and the 800.

2351
01:22:35,784 --> 01:22:38,125
And in every race, he finished

2352
01:22:38,425 --> 01:22:38,925
last.

2353
01:22:39,864 --> 01:22:42,604
He was, after all, 100 years old.

2354
01:22:43,110 --> 01:22:44,810
But there's still more to the story.

2355
01:22:45,110 --> 01:22:47,750
In each event, he broke the age group

2356
01:22:47,750 --> 01:22:48,649
world record

2357
01:22:49,189 --> 01:22:50,010
five times.

2358
01:22:51,829 --> 01:22:53,850
What struck me the most that day

2359
01:22:54,229 --> 01:22:56,204
was how in a world so focused on

2360
01:22:56,204 --> 01:22:58,845
celebrating champions, the elite, the people who do

2361
01:22:58,845 --> 01:23:01,324
the best and are the best, the spirited

2362
01:23:01,324 --> 01:23:03,345
crowd gave its greatest ovations

2363
01:23:04,204 --> 01:23:05,024
to the losers.

2364
01:23:05,564 --> 01:23:08,145
Those who did not not win but finished,

2365
01:23:08,284 --> 01:23:11,039
often against daunting odds. And I'm sure, as

2366
01:23:11,039 --> 01:23:13,760
you can imagine, it takes incredible per- courage

2367
01:23:13,760 --> 01:23:15,219
to put on a track uniform,

2368
01:23:15,920 --> 01:23:18,000
step into an arena in front of thousands

2369
01:23:18,000 --> 01:23:19,760
of people when you know you will not

2370
01:23:19,760 --> 01:23:22,560
win and you may finish last. And yet,

2371
01:23:22,560 --> 01:23:25,344
there they were, a community of resilient souls,

2372
01:23:25,344 --> 01:23:27,344
each one taking on much more than just

2373
01:23:27,344 --> 01:23:29,284
the clock or their competitors.

2374
01:23:29,824 --> 01:23:32,304
As I was absorbing the inspiring goodness of

2375
01:23:32,304 --> 01:23:34,704
it all, Zach noticed the emotion in my

2376
01:23:34,704 --> 01:23:35,204
eyes.

2377
01:23:35,680 --> 01:23:38,319
And he said, I think I know what's

2378
01:23:38,319 --> 01:23:40,800
going on here, dad. We we came expecting

2379
01:23:40,800 --> 01:23:42,720
to watch a track meet, but instead we're

2380
01:23:42,720 --> 01:23:45,760
watching an exhibition in celebration of the human

2381
01:23:45,760 --> 01:23:46,260
spirit.

2382
01:23:47,359 --> 01:23:49,600
Elie Wiesel once said, The opposite of love

2383
01:23:49,600 --> 01:23:50,500
is not hate.

2384
01:23:50,965 --> 01:23:51,784
It's indifference.

2385
01:23:52,564 --> 01:23:53,845
What does this have to do with why

2386
01:23:53,845 --> 01:23:55,364
people we love are leaving The Church of

2387
01:23:55,364 --> 01:23:56,985
Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints?

2388
01:23:57,445 --> 01:23:58,885
One of the reasons too many of our

2389
01:23:58,885 --> 01:24:01,045
family and friends are stepping away is because

2390
01:24:01,045 --> 01:24:02,885
they do not feel a sense of meaningful

2391
01:24:02,885 --> 01:24:05,145
connection and belonging in our church community.

2392
01:24:05,570 --> 01:24:07,650
They may not fit, for many different reasons,

2393
01:24:07,650 --> 01:24:10,050
the typical profile of a traditional Latter day

2394
01:24:10,050 --> 01:24:11,670
Saint and feel out of place.

2395
01:24:12,130 --> 01:24:13,750
They may not be able to relate

2396
01:24:14,130 --> 01:24:16,530
or see themselves and their families in an

2397
01:24:16,530 --> 01:24:18,770
LDS way of life that is often conveyed

2398
01:24:18,770 --> 01:24:21,534
in the culture as very idealistic and aspirational,

2399
01:24:22,234 --> 01:24:23,835
leaving them with the sense that they are

2400
01:24:23,835 --> 01:24:26,414
somehow insufficient or doing something wrong.

2401
01:24:26,795 --> 01:24:28,095
They may have come to

2402
01:24:28,475 --> 01:24:30,795
and expressed their belief and faith in ways

2403
01:24:30,795 --> 01:24:33,195
that are less traditional and feel others pull

2404
01:24:33,195 --> 01:24:33,695
away

2405
01:24:34,210 --> 01:24:36,389
when they voice thoughts that are not sufficiently

2406
01:24:36,529 --> 01:24:37,029
orthodox.

2407
01:24:37,409 --> 01:24:39,090
And they are too often treated with a

2408
01:24:39,090 --> 01:24:42,210
degree of disregard or marginalized for this. And

2409
01:24:42,210 --> 01:24:43,909
all of these things are common

2410
01:24:44,289 --> 01:24:46,869
if the cultural soil is hard and unyielding,

2411
01:24:47,090 --> 01:24:49,349
so focused on itself that it is indifferent

2412
01:24:49,564 --> 01:24:52,844
to the seeds struggling to find root. There's

2413
01:24:52,844 --> 01:24:54,524
so many insights that came to me that

2414
01:24:54,524 --> 01:24:57,164
day about this problem, how everyone, regardless of

2415
01:24:57,164 --> 01:25:00,204
their ability, appearance, or fitness level, was vitally

2416
01:25:00,204 --> 01:25:00,704
important

2417
01:25:01,244 --> 01:25:03,344
and a valued part of what was happening,

2418
01:25:03,739 --> 01:25:06,380
How the most capable and elite athletes, absent

2419
01:25:06,380 --> 01:25:08,320
any self absorption or pride,

2420
01:25:08,939 --> 01:25:11,680
recognized that this competition was not about them,

2421
01:25:12,140 --> 01:25:14,220
but was about something much bigger and the

2422
01:25:14,220 --> 01:25:17,100
genuine love and respect they felt and showed

2423
01:25:17,100 --> 01:25:18,800
for their less able competitors.

2424
01:25:19,534 --> 01:25:21,614
How the culture of this meat and everything

2425
01:25:21,614 --> 01:25:23,295
that leads up to it is for the

2426
01:25:23,295 --> 01:25:23,795
benefit

2427
01:25:24,095 --> 01:25:24,914
of the people.

2428
01:25:25,295 --> 01:25:27,375
And how lifeless and sterile the whole thing

2429
01:25:27,375 --> 01:25:29,475
would have been without the losers.

2430
01:25:30,255 --> 01:25:31,074
Those competitors

2431
01:25:32,630 --> 01:25:34,789
who come for their own reasons and do

2432
01:25:34,789 --> 01:25:36,010
the best they can

2433
01:25:36,390 --> 01:25:38,329
as one of the losers that day.

2434
01:25:38,710 --> 01:25:40,489
I felt grateful, seen,

2435
01:25:40,869 --> 01:25:42,810
valued, needed, unjudged,

2436
01:25:43,189 --> 01:25:43,689
successful,

2437
01:25:44,390 --> 01:25:45,369
and at home.

2438
01:25:45,909 --> 01:25:48,364
I felt light that was life giving and

2439
01:25:48,364 --> 01:25:51,085
I wanted more. And I'm grateful that so

2440
01:25:51,085 --> 01:25:52,844
many of us feel this way in our

2441
01:25:52,844 --> 01:25:53,664
church community

2442
01:25:54,125 --> 01:25:56,284
and deeply saddened that far too many don't

2443
01:25:56,284 --> 01:25:58,765
because they don't fit in this soil that

2444
01:25:58,765 --> 01:25:59,505
we sometimes

2445
01:25:59,805 --> 01:26:00,305
cultivate.

2446
01:26:00,960 --> 01:26:03,619
I often hear people justify hard and unyielding

2447
01:26:03,760 --> 01:26:06,239
soil by arguing that God's standards are high

2448
01:26:06,239 --> 01:26:07,460
and can't be compromised.

2449
01:26:08,239 --> 01:26:10,960
I agree. And therein is the paradox God

2450
01:26:10,960 --> 01:26:12,500
has given us to deal with,

2451
01:26:12,800 --> 01:26:15,454
the tension between standards and acceptance and how

2452
01:26:15,454 --> 01:26:17,215
to balance them with the need to truly

2453
01:26:17,215 --> 01:26:20,095
love others as the savior would. The outpouring

2454
01:26:20,095 --> 01:26:22,414
of love and light in Landover that day

2455
01:26:22,414 --> 01:26:25,155
did not require a single rule or standard

2456
01:26:25,215 --> 01:26:26,914
to be lowered or changed.

2457
01:26:27,570 --> 01:26:29,750
Every race was precisely measured,

2458
01:26:30,289 --> 01:26:32,229
times to a hundredth of a second,

2459
01:26:32,530 --> 01:26:33,750
and strictly officiated.

2460
01:26:34,530 --> 01:26:36,850
No one cut corners on the track or

2461
01:26:36,850 --> 01:26:39,670
jumped over a lower bar or fewer hurdles.

2462
01:26:40,130 --> 01:26:41,970
No one got to throw a lighter shot

2463
01:26:41,970 --> 01:26:42,470
put.

2464
01:26:42,784 --> 01:26:44,864
There was even random drug testing, though I

2465
01:26:44,864 --> 01:26:47,585
couldn't help but wonder what performance enhancing drugs

2466
01:26:47,585 --> 01:26:49,824
really do for a 90 year old. They

2467
01:26:49,824 --> 01:26:52,145
even awarded medals for the three kingdoms of

2468
01:26:52,145 --> 01:26:52,645
glory,

2469
01:26:53,104 --> 01:26:54,164
celestial gold,

2470
01:26:54,545 --> 01:26:57,445
terrestrial silver, and celestial bronze.

2471
01:26:58,050 --> 01:27:00,949
In every way, the standards remained uncompromised,

2472
01:27:01,729 --> 01:27:04,390
and in no way did those standards overshadow

2473
01:27:04,530 --> 01:27:06,289
the love and light that was there in

2474
01:27:06,289 --> 01:27:08,609
great abundance for everyone that shared in the

2475
01:27:08,609 --> 01:27:09,109
experience.

2476
01:27:09,569 --> 01:27:10,949
For one simple reason,

2477
01:27:11,409 --> 01:27:11,909
everyone

2478
01:27:12,289 --> 01:27:12,789
understood

2479
01:27:13,405 --> 01:27:15,564
this wasn't really a track meet held to

2480
01:27:15,564 --> 01:27:17,024
determine and reward

2481
01:27:17,485 --> 01:27:17,985
winners.

2482
01:27:18,364 --> 01:27:20,925
And Jesus said, but many that are first

2483
01:27:20,925 --> 01:27:24,125
shall be last, and the last first. Mark

2484
01:27:24,125 --> 01:27:25,260
ten thirty one.

2485
01:27:32,380 --> 01:27:35,019
That concludes this episode of the Leading Saints

2486
01:27:35,019 --> 01:27:36,859
podcast. Hey. Listen. Would you do me a

2487
01:27:36,859 --> 01:27:39,274
favor? You know, everybody's got that friend who

2488
01:27:39,274 --> 01:27:41,755
listens to a ton of podcasts, and maybe

2489
01:27:41,755 --> 01:27:44,074
they aren't aware of Leading Saints. So would

2490
01:27:44,074 --> 01:27:45,994
you mind taking the link of this episode

2491
01:27:45,994 --> 01:27:48,395
or another episode of Leading Saints and just

2492
01:27:48,395 --> 01:27:50,395
texting it to that friend? You know who

2493
01:27:50,395 --> 01:27:52,699
I'm talking about. The friend who always listens

2494
01:27:52,699 --> 01:27:54,619
to podcasts and is always telling you about

2495
01:27:54,619 --> 01:27:56,619
different podcasts. Well, it's your turn to tell

2496
01:27:56,619 --> 01:27:59,659
that friend about Leading Saints. So share it.

2497
01:27:59,659 --> 01:28:00,939
We'd also love to hear from you. If

2498
01:28:00,939 --> 01:28:03,100
you have any perspective or thought on this

2499
01:28:03,100 --> 01:28:05,100
episode, you can go to leadingsaints.org

2500
01:28:05,100 --> 01:28:07,764
and actually leave a comment on the, episode

2501
01:28:07,824 --> 01:28:09,984
page or reach out to us at leading

2502
01:28:09,984 --> 01:28:11,444
saints dot org slash contact.

2503
01:28:11,904 --> 01:28:14,484
Remember, go to leadingsaints.org/14

2504
01:28:14,545 --> 01:28:17,505
to access the remarkable presentation by Anthony Sweat

2505
01:28:17,505 --> 01:28:19,140
about ambiguity and doctrine.

2506
01:28:29,300 --> 01:28:31,640
It came as a result of the position

2507
01:28:31,699 --> 01:28:34,680
of leadership which was imposed upon us

2508
01:28:35,125 --> 01:28:37,145
by the God of heaven, who brought

2509
01:28:37,524 --> 01:28:40,824
forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus

2510
01:28:40,965 --> 01:28:41,465
Christ.

2511
01:28:42,164 --> 01:28:43,145
When the declaration

2512
01:28:43,524 --> 01:28:45,784
was made concerning the only

2513
01:28:46,484 --> 01:28:48,885
true and living Church upon the face of

2514
01:28:48,885 --> 01:28:49,545
the earth,

2515
01:28:50,199 --> 01:28:52,380
we were immediately put in a position

2516
01:28:52,840 --> 01:28:53,500
of loneliness,

2517
01:28:53,800 --> 01:28:55,420
the loneliness of leadership

2518
01:28:56,153 --> 01:28:59,052
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,

2519
01:28:59,832 --> 01:29:02,313
and to which we must face up with

2520
01:29:02,313 --> 01:29:03,773
boldness and courage

2521
01:29:04,313 --> 01:29:05,133
and ability.