Hey. Welcome to the Leading Saints podcast. Now
for many of you that are brand new,
to Leading Saints, it's important that you know
that Leading Saints is a nonprofit organization,
five zero one c three, dedicated to helping
Latter day Saints
be better prepared to lead, and we do
that through
content creation. You get so much positive feedback
on the podcast, our virtual conferences, the articles
on our website.
You definitely gotta check it out at leadingsaints.org.
And on their homepage at leading saints that
are, you can actually find the top six
most downloaded episodes to the podcast. So if
you're new, like the content, want to jump
into some of our most popular episodes head
there after you listened to this.
Anthony Sweat has easily become one of my
favorite BYU professors to interview. He's been on
the podcast several times, and he also has
a remarkable presentation about ambiguity of doctrine
in our questioning saints virtual library. He discusses
healthy and unhealthy ways we approach doctrine, how
to help others reconcile doctrine they find difficult
to believe especially
when we don't know much about it. You
can watch professor Sweat's entire interview in the
Questioning Saints library
by going to leadingsaints.org/fourteen.
This will give you access for fourteen days
at no cost to watch this presentation.
You'll be better prepared as a leader when
you do.
Welcome back to another episode of Leading Saints
where this is a part two episode with
Jeff Strong. Now if you haven't watched the
part one, it'd probably be worth your time
to go back. It's a phenomenal episode. We
got such great feedback from that, and we
were planning to do a part two. And
I was even more excited to do a
part two with Jeff because of how well
that first discussion went. And this is a
longer one, but I think you'll appreciate every
minute of it. There's a lot here to
consider. We talk more about the tension that
we experience in our faith tradition, but more
from our differences. And, obviously, we're different people.
God made us different, and we have different
perspectives and approaches and everything from our our
DNA to our upbringing to how we approach
the gospel, how we understand the gospel, and
everything in between. And we all show up
on Sunday at the same place with different
perspectives and different experiences.
So how do we reconcile all that? Is
it a goal of bringing everybody into the
same frame so that we all see the
world the same way, we all understand the
gospel the same way, we all interact with
the covenants and traditions the same way, or
do we embrace the differences? And how do
we do that and still protect the doctrine?
How do we do that and still encourage
seeking and cultivating and community? Right? So we
talk about six different belief mindsets,
these different segments that, you know, they're not
perfect segments, but you'll probably resonate with one
more than another or two or three more
than another. And I think there's a lot
we can learn from understanding the different people
that come into church. Now the interesting
core of this discussion
comes to the fact that
90%
of church leaders come from only one of
these segments.
Now why is that? What is it with
this mindset that draws leaders there or that
perpetuates
individuals choosing leaders or, you know, these leaders
being called to these leadership roles? And many
of you, like myself, are probably in this
segment. So we explore the differences, how we
can stimulate more community, the body of Christ,
and what we can learn just about the
human spirit and relationship
when we consider the different segments that show
up to church. So I think you'll appreciate
this. Here's my interview part two with Jeff
Strong.
Jeff, we're back. Part two. There's so much
to talk about. I mean, there probably won't
be a part three, four, or five, but
I'm sure there'll be more conversations in the
future. I hope so. I got a lot
of great feedback
from our first conversation.
I think it's just refreshing to talk about
these things even though that it's not maybe
the perfect sunshine and rainbows news at all
times that everything's you know, when you when
we look at data, we want it to
reflect really really well on us. So maybe
just give us a recap of what journey
we went on. I would encourage people listening
to part two. If they haven't listened to
part one, go listen to that. But maybe
give us a recap to bring everybody back
up to speed. That sounds good. Well, first
of all, thank you for Yeah. Bringing me
back. Sure. You know, it's always good to
be with you. So, you know, really briefly,
last episode,
I I mentioned that we've done this huge
study on disaffiliation.
We're not talking about disaffiliation yet. We're talking
about other things,
primarily people's experience in the church community.
So last episode, we talked about what people
love about the church, what people feel conflict
in in regard to their church experience,
and sort of this important theme, which we're
gonna run with a little bit today
of tension, tension in my church experience. Last
week, it was the tension between tradition and
change. We talked about Fiddler on the Roof,
for example.
This week, it's gonna be tension caused by
our differences.
Yeah. And, you know, we didn't suspense a
lot of advice or, you know, suggestions. And
so we'll do a little bit more,
I think, at the end of today's episode,
but that's really where we were last week.
Yeah. And recognizing that we're different, I mean,
that's okay. Right? Because we are different. It
is. We're not supposed to be the same.
It is it is absolutely okay. I think
sometimes it feels more comfortable when we're more
when we're similar. Right? Well, you know, what
are they what's the old saying? Birds of
a feather flock together? That's right. And there's
a reason they do. Yeah. And so, yeah,
there is something very comfortable and reassuring about
being around people that are like minded. Mhmm.
That just isn't the community of Christ. Yeah.
And so we get to deal with that
Yeah. Opportunity. And I would say, like, if
you, you know, randomly selected the average bishop
or church leader or, you know, which is
often our audience or
or, you know, lifelong
church attending member, they say, I wanna be
okay with differences. I I want all types
to come join us in the pews on
Sunday. And Yeah. And that's the finicky thing
about culture is that even though we're striving
for a certain ideal, sometimes it it just
gets messy because we live in mortality. Yeah.
No. I I think that's really well said.
You know, one of the things I loved
about being a mission president is we had
over 700 missionaries over three years,
how different they were. Yeah. And so
if there were any impulses of homogeneity
or conformity in my heart when I went,
they were pretty much gone by the time
I came home. Yeah. And some of my
absolute favorite missionaries were the ones that just
didn't fit the mold. Mhmm. And I learned
so much from them. Yeah. And there is
power in so much learning as we talked
about last time of going to that point
of tension rather than trying to relieve the
tension or make it all the same so
that there's no more tension?
Yeah. The danger
look. When you experience tension,
you've got a couple of options. One is
you run from it. Mhmm. That's not you
know, sometimes it's so severe that's kinda what
you need to do. And so I respect
people that make that choice when they need
to.
But in the end, it it separates you
from the community and the cause of the
tension. The other is that, you know, you
try to drive the tension out through conformity.
Yeah. And that can create all kinds of
problems. Premature conclusions and what relieves tension for
you might actually create extra tension for someone
else. Yeah. And the the third and best
option is figure out what God wants you
to learn from the tension,
and then try to find some higher order
principle that balances the tension. You know, if
you go back to Fiddler on the Roof,
the message of that beautiful play isn't pick
tradition or pick change,
It's find the higher principle where you can
integrate the two. Right? It's not or, it's
and.
And so that word and as opposed to
or is a powerful word when you're trying
to figure out tension and change. Yep. Any
other point that we need to review to
to bring us up to speed? Or is
that I think so. I think that's it.
I'd love to start with a little story,
though, that Yeah. This is a true story
that kind of gets us into the
the head and heart space for what we're
gonna talk about today. So I have,
I live in Midway, so I'm on the
other side of Mount Timpanogos,
and I have a little office on the
west side of my house that overlooks Timp,
and there's a pond behind my house. And,
it's really kind of fun because we're up
in the mountains a little bit, and so
the wildlife that enjoy that pond is really
interesting. I've had all kinds of things show
up, and I won't, you know, give you
the whole list.
But last fall, I had a really, really
spectacular visitor
that I'd never had before. And it was
a kingfisher. Do you know what a kingfisher
is? I do not. Okay. A kingfisher
is a bird that's, oh, probably
50% bigger than a robin. Oh, wow. And
they have these incredible slate blue feathers
with brilliant black and white stripes and then
a big bill because they are fishing birds.
Right? And so they, you know, they kinda
look like a woodpecker might,
but they're beautiful.
And I looked up one morning and, and
sitting on the top of a tall spruce
tree is a kingfisher overlooking this pond, and
it was looking for breakfast.
And I had the, you know, the privilege
of actually seeing it dive down into the
water and take a small fish out.
And then it went back to its perch.
And it wasn't too long before a magpie
showed up. Okay. So this magpie shows up
and it's kind of darting at the kingfisher
a little bit, and then a second magpie,
and then a third magpie,
and then I don't remember exactly how many,
but four or five magpies all showed up,
and they were all
darting at and harassing this kingfisher
to the point that it took flight, right,
as you would. Mhmm. And, you know, the
magpies are big and aggressive, and there was
a little dog fight that took place
above the pond between the kingfisher and the
pack of magpies that was chasing it. And
it lasted maybe a minute,
and then the kingfisher
got tired
and just flew away. Mhmm. And I it
was kind of a powerful thing for me,
and it was disturbing to me that this
absolutely
spectacular, beautiful creature
was driven off my property
by a flock of magpies. And I thought
about it a lot. I'm like, why did
these magpies do that? And then I realized
that the kingfisher was guilty of a terrible
sin,
not being a magpie. Yeah. It was different.
Yeah. It's different. And
we can learn a lot from that from
some of this data you've I hope we
will. I think there's something in that story
that is instructive. Yeah. Well, where's a good
jumping off point for Well, hey. Let's Kurt,
if it's okay, I wanna go back to
some information we talked about just briefly
last episode,
and I'm gonna do it verbally,
but it'll kinda set up some of what
we're gonna talk about. So, one of the
things that we ask people is what is
the greatest strength in the culture? Right? And
so
they said things like community, service, faith, unity,
kindness, teaching, family.
And you and I talked about, Hey, yeah,
that feels that feels right. That's the church
that we love.
And so
I'll just kind of summarize
the strengths of the culture that people talked
about in our research. Being part of a
loving and supportive community of believers,
a heritage of serving others,
spiritual strength and growing through Christ, working together
towards common religious ideals and goals, and caring
for one another in kindness.
Those are the most frequently mentioned strengths
in the culture. And I, you know, does
that represent the church that you grew up
in and the church that you love and
the church you still love? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Me too. I thought it would be fun
just to read a few verbatims
in this area. We read some last time
and I think reading
real comments from real people is powerful. It
goes beyond the data. But one person said,
it's the fellowship with others, many whom are
very different from myself in background and experiences
and opinions.
Another person said, opportunities to serve in an
organization
in a meaningful way and feel like I'm
making a difference, even if it's just in
the lives of a few people.
Another person said, having a system of faith
and values.
It makes my life better and it helps
me raise my children better than I could
do on my own.
And then
maybe my favorite, The comfort of knowing the
plan of happiness,
even when I'm unhappy.
Yeah. These are all
beautiful sentiments about what people love about the
culture. Yeah. Let's kinda hit the same thing
on the weaknesses of the culture. And so
44%
of people said
judgment,
37%
said cultural norms,
32% said groupthink. 32% said exclusivity.
29%
said inclusivity. You know, different sides of the
same coin.
Overall, it's sort of this idea of judgment,
conformity,
exclusivity,
overreliance on traditions,
and fear can contribute
to exclusion,
inhibit healthy adaptation and growth, discourage critical thinking,
and contribute to fear and perfectionism. So that
was kind of the theme. But if if
you're okay, I'm just gonna read the AI
descriptions on each of the top several. Okay.
And I I want you to kinda look
for a pattern. Okay. Because there's a clear
pattern. Now remember, the question is, what are
the greatest weaknesses of the culture?
Judgment,
evaluating and criticizing others based on perceived differences,
causing exclusion and lack of acceptance.
44%
of people reference that theme. 37%
cited cultural norms, rigid expectations for beliefs and
behaviors
that can create barriers for those who are
different.
32%
groupthink, the tendency to conform to the dominant
viewpoint
leading to a lack of diversity
and critical thinking.
32%
also cited exclusivity
being unwelcoming to those who don't fit our
traditional mold,
particularly
socially and culturally.
And then 29%
said inclusivity,
the challenges of accepting individuals with different backgrounds,
beliefs, and lifestyles.
So what's the pattern? There's a clear pattern
there. Yeah. The words jump out. Differences,
different, diversity, don't fit, differences. Right? The how
we're different. Yeah. Yeah. And, Curt, I'd also
like to briefly
revisit a second slide we looked at last
time. How comfortable are you in the culture?
And you'll remember this slide because what we
did is we took the broad data set
and we split it into different groups. And
we looked at a group that's kind of
more traditional,
more Orthodox church members
versus a different group that's sort of general
church population, more typical church members.
And as you can see from the slide,
there are huge differences in how they feel
about the culture. So in that traditional group,
73%
said, I'm very comfortable in the culture.
In the less traditional group, only 11%
said, I'm very comfortable in the culture.
And these wonderful folks are sitting in the
pews
at the same time Yeah. Having a very,
very different experience. Yeah. K? And so that
creates tension.
And if you're okay, I'd like to just
read a few verbatims from people
who are experiencing tension, you know, so that
we can contrast that with those that are
feeling really good in the culture.
So
one person said,
There is pressure to conform.
Another person said,
You must work hard to carve out a
niche if you don't fall into the majority.
And it doesn't mean there isn't a space,
but it may be lonely and uncomfortable for
a good while, and this drives some people
away.
Another person said, First and foremost, we value
certainty
over faith and hope. Another said, If you
don't conform to the culture,
you must keep it quiet in order to
serve effectively.
Two more. Another person said,
we are afraid of those who have doubts
and we do not wish those doubts to
be expressed publicly.
Actually, two more now. We are afraid of
people who look or act differently.
We're afraid of having truly vulnerable discussions about
faith and personal struggles.
We're getting better in many of these areas,
but I wish we were getting better a
little faster.
And then this is my favorite perhaps, there's
only one way to be a Mormon,
and we forget that our job is to
be fishers of men, not sorters of fish.
Right? And so these are people that are
active faithful members of the church, but they're
feeling conflict. They're in that 11%, you know,
they're in that group that where only 11%
feel comfortable. And my mind goes to, you
know, the 73%
who feel very comfortable, the more orthodox.
They may hear some of those and be
like, yeah. That's exactly what we're trying to
do because Yeah. You know, obviously, we talk
about a covenant path. Right? Not covenant paths
or pick your path, whatever, or A path.
The the savior and redeemer. There's not like,
well, you know, you can shop around for
your best redeemer and Yeah. Go go with
him. Right? And so there is this feeling
from a leadership standpoint of like, well, yeah,
we we want to change people. Right? And
Yeah. I think it's connected. You sort of
hear the trope of, like, you know, people
will
say, like, people outside the church, they just
want too much acceptance and Mhmm. Leave leave
us how we are and accept us how
we are. We're like, no. No. No. We
we want to make you better. God wants
to make you better, which Mhmm. You know,
all things considered, yes, those are true, but
there's more going on here. Right? And so
and what we'll get into this as far
as, like, our natural impulses when we hear
this. But it's so basically, you're reading these.
Let's just sit with these and realize this
is where people are at. Right? Yeah. Look.
And I think those are good points. In
fact, I there's a recording playing in my
head right now Uh-huh.
Which is, you know,
my former self or
people I know and love who are very
traditional
members
and leaders.
Hey, buddy. This isn't a smorgasbord.
Yeah. Right? We don't get to pick and
choose,
you know, what is in the church and
in the gospel. And look, I agree with
that sentiment in general,
but as we saw in our last episode,
remember the beautiful chart that showed
the contrast between what people deeply believe personally,
and what they believe is important in the
culture.
You know, I think caring for the poor
and needy is something that's deeply important to
believe in. Mhmm. Right? Yeah. So this isn't
I think sometimes we misframe this of, well,
the tension is caused because people don't wanna
be righteous. Mhmm. And there's nothing in the
data that supports that that's what the cause
of the tension is.
It may be fair to say people have
different mindsets
about what being righteous
means. Right. Yeah. And it's not our job
to necessarily tell them this is a, b,
and c, how you'd be righteous. We have
to like, okay. You have that point of
view,
and I I'm I can give space for
that or or sit with that. You know?
Yeah. Because, again, that's caring for the poor
and the needy. That's obviously still part of
the gospel of Jesus Christ. Right? For sure.
It is. Big part of it. And so
it's not we're not saying, well, consider this
other gospel. We're saying, no. This is all
under the umbrella. No. It's all it's all
in. Yeah. You know, we're not talking about
stuff that's outside that Yeah. Exactly. Domain. Exactly.
You know, I thought it would be fun
for just a second before we shift gears,
you know,
to talk
about So we have
this inevitability
of tension, right? Tradition and change,
differences.
And it's really not the tension
that's the problem, it's our reaction, our natural
reaction to the tension.
And so, you know, one of my favorite
scriptures has been for years is Mosiah three
nineteen, right? The natural man. And I'm not
going to quote the whole scripture, but it
basically says that the natural man is an
enemy to God, and we have to put
that off by yielding to the enticings of
the Holy Spirit. Right? And so can this
shed any light on this issue for us?
And I think it can. So Yeah. The
natural man, really,
is our tendency to follow our natural instincts
of self preservation. Right? So you and I
could go down and list all the things
that we think are part of being the
natural man. Right? Mhmm. And, you know, it's
a messy list. Yeah. Yeah. Now some of
those are important for your survival, right? And
so the scripture in Mosiah doesn't say you
should kill the natural man. What it says
is you should yield to the spirit. In
other words, the natural man should be subject
to the governance of the spirit. Yeah. But
the natural man keeps you alive. Yeah. Right?
There has to be a a bit of
that in us because it keeps us alive.
It just has to be governed by the
spirit. And so it's interesting if you look
at neuroscience,
When we encounter perceived threats,
including social or ideological
differences, our brain
often activates the amygdala. Okay? Now, the amygdala
is the place that regulates
our fear
and self protective responses like fight, flight, or
freeze.
And conformity
emerges
from that fear response because
we're experiencing tension because something's different. It doesn't
fit. We feel threatened by that. So we
want to homogenize that difference and make it
go away. Yeah. Right? And I I believe
that's the natural man. And what we need
to do is
just be aware of that. Okay. You know,
my amygdala is firing right now. You know,
you mentioned being a bishop in its inner
city ward and having people
go to the podium to bear their testimonies
with earphones and hoodies on, or I think
I said they were.
And I joked that, yeah, I'd I'd be
the guy in the audience,
you know, wagging my head saying, does he
really have to dress like that for sacramenting?
Right? Right. Well, my amygdala would be firing
in that moment. Right. And so what we
wanna do is just pause and take a
breath
and then move our thoughts to our prefrontal
cortex,
which is the place where empathy,
self regulation,
moral reasoning
reside,
and the spirit can influence through those beautiful
values. Right? And so I think that the
learning here is really relevant, and the the
lesson is perhaps
we can't have a community that's led by
our natural man and our amygdala. Right? Yeah.
That plays a role, but it always has
to be subject to the governance of the
Holy Ghost. Yeah. This is really powerful, and
I think this is helpful to just recognize
that naturally,
we are going to respond to certain things.
We are. That doesn't mean
that that's always the best way to respond,
nor nor is it like it's not that
we are always seeking tension. It's okay if
there's sort of relief
or balance or
peace, you know, but when that tension comes
okay. I'm I'm feeling some tension. How am
I going to respond to this? Yeah. You
know, move that part of the the brain.
Right? So that rather than, well, something's off,
we got to we have to fix something's
wrong. We gotta fix it. And the way
we're gonna fix it is we're gonna kill
the tension. Yeah. Right. So now it's the
tension. Because the natural man, we naturally
go to
sin. Right? Which Yeah. Which would be an
appropriate Yep. Commentary about that scripture is sin.
Right? But Mhmm. There's a lot more going
on naturally.
And then that's when that fruit was partaken
of and we this was a fallen state,
a lot happened there. It wasn't just suddenly
we wanna sin or whatever. You know? So
Yeah. And I look. I think the natural
man is sin, the natural man is selfishness.
Yeah. The natural man is self preservation, which
might not be a bad thing. Right. Right?
It just has to be governed
under the By the spirit. Supervision of the
spirit. Yeah. Right? Otherwise That's really powerful. Just
per if all you do is pursue self
preservation,
it wouldn't be a very Christ like
place, right? Or community, and you wouldn't be
very Christ like, right? You'd be very self
centered. Mhmm. But if you never
thought of those things,
you know, you'd stop eating, you'd stop working
for a living, right? Yeah. You'd stop taking
care of your health, and so there's a
balance there. Yeah. And I'm just thinking, you
know, from a general leadership perspective, this is
such a powerful principle because even think of
you're in a word council setting and suddenly
people start to debate and there's kinda there's
passion and,
this feels uncomfortable. Like, I as the bishop,
I need to make I need to ease
this and get rid of this tension when
it's happening in reality.
We actually say, no, this is good. This
means revelation is about to come forth. You
know? I am excited you raised that point.
I think that's a tremendous point.
And I remember being a young bishop
and come on guys, you know, bring it
down a notch. Yeah. I would not do
that now. Yeah. Right? I would try to
govern the tone of the conversation perhaps,
but I would want that conversation to take
place. This reminds me of my interview I
did with,
Bishop Pope in, Southside Chicago. This is the
most baptizing ward in North America. Right? Okay.
Wow. And he said, if you wanna have
growth I'm not verbatim, but if you wanna
have growth in your ward and baptisms,
you have to get used to applauding in
sacrament meeting. Love it. Because if you're Yeah.
If you want to be the ward that
suddenly the masses show up, you can't normalize
them to some of these cultural norms or
or policies
overnight. No. And so
should that mean we should just have, applause
and clapping and sacramenting? Well, not necessarily, but
just know that But maybe we can't orient
everybody there, and it's okay to be okay
with that tension. Right? But our natural man
wants to be like, okay. Let's get a
form and every or we'll pass out a
pamphlet. No clapping in church. Right? I mean,
that that's gonna drive people away No. For
sure. You know, type of thing. So Oh,
I you know, if we have time and
it seems appropriate, I could share a couple
of missionary stories where where I, you know,
I was just I was taught deep and
profound lessons from missionaries that don't fit. Yeah.
Right? They don't they you know, where my
initial first impression of them was, Wow, why
are you here? Right? I I don't understand
why you came.
You know? I don't understand what you're gonna
do here.
And
I was taught some really
powerful lessons about
my natural man tendencies. Yeah. And how I
was
absolutely misreading
what God had in mind. Yeah. Yeah. And
that's the beauty of tension. Again, it can
be such a learning opportunity. For sure. And
embrace those. For sure. I I hope we
come back to that. I got a couple
of questions. Okay. Alright. Alright. Teasing the audience
here. So we Yeah. So let hey. Let
me just quickly summarize
you know, we've seen some data, we've talked
about tension from differences and our tendency to
conform. And so I just wanna kinda bring
it to a head. So the tension comes
from not from differences, but from our response
to those differences.
Conformity brings comfort to some of us,
but creates
discomfort for others.
Belonging often feels conditional because it's tied to
these unspoken cultural norms.
Judgment fear, perfectionism
rise when conformity outweighs compassion.
Traditional members thrive in the culture because it
reflects all their values,
but less traditional members feel tension,
not from disbelief, but from not fitting in
or not feeling like they fit in. And
I think it's safe to say that a
Christ centered culture
would accommodate
a broader community because of empathy, humility, and
love. Mhmm. Yeah. Powerful. Alright. What's next? Where
are we going? Okay. Hey. I'm gonna share
something that I
am really excited about. I think this I'm
pretty sure this is gonna be the first
time that it's been shared publicly. Oh, cool.
So unless somebody, you know, got a bootleg
copy and got out there. So you you
get it first, Kurt.
But you're certainly aware that
the nature of people's differences in the space
of spirituality,
faith, belief, religion, churches has been deeply studied
for decades and decades and decades. And so
you have people like James Fowler
who wrote the book Stages of Faith.
You have Brian McLaren who wrote the book
Faith After Doubt where he gets into four
different ways of believing.
And it's a long list. There are 15
or 20 people that are either pastors or
religious leaders or social scientists that have studied
this phenomenon.
And, I was super interested to get an
LDS specific take on this. And so we
included it in our research. Oh, cool. And
so, now here's what I would tell you.
This was not the entire 15,000
people that took the whole survey.
We did this as a follow-up survey and
we got, you know, around 2,500
to 3,000 responses. So big, big data set.
And what I'm going to share with you
is
essentially a segmentation
model
of how Latter day saints are different in
our religious mindsets.
Okay. Now there are a couple of things
you need to know on the front side
of this. I'm going to oversimplify
this. Right. So I'm going to show you
six segments and I'm going to, I'm going
to imply
that everybody is neatly tucked into one of
those six segments. But in reality, all of
us are a bit of a blend of
multiple segments. Yeah. Right? There's typically a predominant
segment and that's sort of how we're gonna
talk about it. But for example, Kurt, you
might have a pretty big chunk of two
or three or even four of these different
segments in you. I know I Yeah. I
know I do. In a different context, like,
whether it's Yes. Politics, sports Yes. Family, it
probably is different. The other thing is it's
dynamic. People change.
Right? And so the mindset that might have
been predominant for you ten years ago may
not be the mindset that's predominant
in you today. Right? So we need to
understand that this is dynamic,
it's complex.
And the way to think about models and
frameworks like this
is that they're incredibly useful,
but they're not true in the true sense.
Right? Now they're not true because they're two
dimensional and people are three-dimensional. Yeah. Right?
So see this as this is incredibly useful,
but not literally
true. Right. It's almost like we're stepping into
the laboratory and saying we're gonna put people
in boxes. Yeah. Not because they are represented
completely by the box, but we can learn,
oh, there's a lot of people in this
box. Why is that? Yes. And we can
understand differences. We can understand how it affects
our culture. Yeah. We can understand
how that translates into motivations and values.
But at the end of the day, we
have to step back and say, it's useful
but not true. Right. Right? And it's a
two d model because people are unique and
dynamic and,
you know, try as we might to depict
three d dynamics in a two d chart,
you can't do it. And I would add,
and correct me if I'm wrong, but, like,
it's very easy to think that one of
these is better than the other. Right? So
if I think back in my my faith
when I was a missionary,
I would say now as a 43 year
old man, I had a there was a
little bit immature faith. But in the moment,
I thought I had very mature faith. Right?
I think that's fair. But it's not that
I should go back in time and say,
you're doing it wrong. You have the wrong
faith. No. It was who I was at
the moment, and that's okay. Yeah. Right. You
know, let's make sure we come back to
that. Okay. Because
I'm not gonna present this as a progression.
It's not a progression. Right. So, for example
and by the way, I think people like
Fowler and McLaren wouldn't present theirs as progressions
as well, but they've labeled them as stage
one, stage two, stage three. Hard to get
out of that. Right? And Brian's a great
guy, by the way, and he would definitely
say, no, that's not the idea.
So they're kinda saying their models typically say,
what may happen to an individual through the
course of their lifetime?
This is different. This is the LDS community
snapshot
at a point in time. So it's not
a a view of a lifetime of an
individual.
It's a snapshot of the community at a
point in time. Yeah. Perfect. Okay. Hopefully that
makes sense. But it's Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's
worth it's worth the explanation. It'll make a
lot of sense. So let's go ahead and
put up the chart. It says six belief
mindset segments.
Now we're gonna spend some time on this.
It's not super complicated,
but it's there's enough here that we ought
to just kind of methodically go through it.
And so let me understand, like, as you
were putting this data together, you wanted to
say, let's see if we can create segments,
whether maybe it's three segments, maybe it's 10,
or, you know, hopefully, we can get them
in
some certain segments that we at least we
can put definition behind it and say then
so that they contrast. Right? Yeah. Yeah. That's
it. And, you know, the idea of segmenting
communities into groups so that you can more
effectively understand and interact with them has been
around, you know, since the beginning of time.
Right. My perspective on this is deeply informed
by being in the LDS space
for a long time and doing research in
the LDS space. What I'm gonna present here
though is specifically
insights and a model that came out of
the research that we did that you've helped
us with. Yeah. Great. And so
let me just tell you how to read
the chart first. And for those of your
audience that are listening, I'm gonna try my
best
to give you what you need to know
even though you can't see the chart. So
what we've got here is we have six
segments and you'll see on the far right,
there's a segment that's in shaded in
gray because they're different, and I'm gonna come
back to that.
The names of each of the segments are
there, a little symbol in a black circle
that kind of depicts the essence of the
segment.
And then in the box,
there are three descriptions of the segment. I'll
talk about what those are.
And then at the bottom there
figurines
that
represent the approximate
size of each segment in the LDS community.
So for example, the first I'll walk you
through the first one.
The first group are called seekers. We call
them seekers.
And these are people that what they're looking
for from the church community is they want
direction,
you know? How should we live our lives?
They want help and support,
and they want to contribute.
K? And so their mindset is kind of
pursuing practical,
useful,
uplifting
experiences.
And if I was to put their sort
of mindset on a bumper sticker, it would
be seek,
be, and do
good. Mhmm. So these folks are kinda all
about the fruits. Hey, if it's good, let's
do it. And if it's bad, hey, we
probably shouldn't do it. Right? They don't tend
to get too wound up in theology.
I'm not saying that they're less theological,
that they're less
interested in, you know, knowing doctrine,
but the mindset, the heart of their faith
is
goodness.
Fruits. Right?
And our estimate in The US is that
this group is about 30%
of membership. Mhmm. Does that make sense? And
it's, it's membership in general or those who
actually show up on on Sunday? This is
actually people that tend to be
more active.
Less active people are not excluded from this,
but these would be people that in general
this would be kind of a composite view
of people that are participating to a degree.
Gotcha. Right? If they're out, hard out, very
inactive,
they would be underrepresented
in the state of Gotcha. Okay. The second
group are called cultivators.
And these are people that are deeply interested
in truth,
meaning,
and personal growth. And so what they're looking
for is authenticity,
humility,
inspiration,
and spiritual nourishment.
And their bumper sticker would be love and
lift individuals.
Right? And they they are roughly about 20%
of membership.
Okay?
The third segment
we call protectors.
These are folks that are really focused on
clarity,
certainty,
and order.
They love doctrine,
authority,
leadership,
and unity.
And their bumper sticker would be obey and
defend the church. Mhmm. You know anybody like
that? Yeah. Yeah. I do. And they're roughly
about 20%
of members. Now, here's what's interesting. We're gonna
come back to this.
The 20% figure there came from my research.
Now my well educated speculation,
this was not part of my research. I
want to be transparent about that, is while
the protectors are about 20%
of church membership,
they're 90 plus percent of church leadership. So,
Relief Society presidents, bishops, stake presidents, mission presidents,
general authorities,
90 plus percent of them are probably
heavy weighted towards protectors. They may have other
mindsets too, but they're gonna be in the
protector space.
I would not make that same observation about
the First Presidency and the Quorum of the
Twelve. I think there's a little more diversity
among them based on, you know, I've had
some exposure to several of them that's pretty
significant.
I've met all of them.
I've observed them like you have or any
other member of the church has and I
would tell you that I think there's a
little more diversity. Yeah. And you can kind
of pick up the tone of our topics
and their conference addresses and things. Yeah. Yeah,
you can. Yeah. Okay. The next group are
avoiders.
Okay. Now these are folks that want autonomy
and inner integrity is really important. So they're
about space and independence
and their bumper sticker is I'm gonna go
my own way. Right? Now that doesn't mean
they're not religious, and it doesn't mean that
they're not spiritual, and it doesn't mean they
don't have faith and belief.
It's just that they're not feeling
an institutional
connection to the community. Right? Yeah. The next
group are connected And what percentage is avoiders?
Oh, sorry. They're about 15%.
Now, we know that
that a much higher number of members of
the church are less active. Uh-huh. Right? So
you might say, well, that number seems too
low because there are a lot more people
than 15% that are less active. But you
can have people that are less active from
any number of segments. Yeah. Right? So these
speaks less to activity level and more to
mindset.
Got it. Okay.
And then the next group is connectors. Connectors
to me are a really, really interesting group
and they're kind of two sides to it,
but they're about belonging
and shared identity and meaning. And so what
they want and need
are community
and shared tradition and ritual. And so, they're
kind of two types of connectors. There's the
social connector,
and you know the guy that just says,
Man, I love my elders quorum. We're gonna
go biking on Saturday. Right? And so it's
the social connection
of being part of the church community, and
they just love that. But there's an interesting
other side to this, and that is the
social connection that happens through our religious rites
and rituals.
So for example,
you know, I've had five children. They were
all baptized at eight. Of course, we invited
everybody we knew, our friends, our family, to
that special occasion.
And so there was a huge social
connecting moment
at that baptism, or sending a son or
daughter on a mission, or having them come
home, or having family members sealed in the
temple. Those are religious
experiences that have really big social impact.
And so connectors are all about that. They're
trying to get the
people in the community to,
you know, connect with each other, tie to
each other, be together.
The casserole makers, right? Yeah, the casserole makers,
yes.
The green jello makers. Yep. And then the
group that I don't have as much perspective
on, I know a fair bit about them,
but we here's the reason that box is
gray. I didn't put them in the survey.
I didn't get the typing question in the
survey. So just, you know, user air on
that. Okay. But there is a group of
people in the LDS community and other churches
that we call explorers, but they're about spiritual
experiences and revelation. And so they want spiritual
in intensity.
They want transcendence.
And their bumper sticker is, I'm seeking spiritual
encounters.
Mhmm. K. Now you probably know Latter day
Saints that would fit that description.
I certainly do.
I think, for example, when Joseph Smith was
young,
he was very much an explorer. Right? He
was seeking
connection with the divine.
He was asking these deep, meaningful,
existential
questions,
and he was having spiritual encounters.
Right? So those are the six groups. Does
that make sense? And so we're about if
I do the math, connectors and explorers about
15, like, what's the percentage of those? Or
Yeah. Connectors And maybe you don't have it.
Yeah. Connectors are about 15%.
Explorers, don't have the data. Whatever's left. Yeah.
I think it's a smaller group. I think
that group's a little bit smaller, but those
are the six groups. And we'll spend most
of the time talking about the five because
we've got a little bit of data. And
of course, there's overlapping. Right? There might be
a seeker who really loves connection and social
Yeah. Things. But Oh, for sure. For sure.
Maybe what they prioritize the most are the
values that resonate the most with their experience.
In a predominant segment. Okay. And we'll talk
a little bit more about that. I've got
some fun things that we can kind of
explore with that. So let me ask you
this, and maybe this is where you heard
it, but, like, so what? Like, why do
we need to have these different, you know,
segments
or be aware of them? Let's just come
to church. I'm gonna do the sacrament, and
we'll go to Elders' Gorm or whatever. Like,
where's the,
Where's the beef? The beef. Yeah. Yeah. Well,
let me let me just give you an
example. Uh-huh. Right? And
we could probably talk about this and come
up with 20 or 30 examples,
but I'll just give you one that I
know is kind of prominent.
So if you're a protector
and you're Which is ninety
ninety plus percent of leadership and maybe a
large chunk of this audience. Right? And by
the way, I'm gonna kinda come back to
this, but
all six segments are good. Right.
All six segments
have important and necessary and valuable
contributions in our church community.
And so it's important to start with that
mindset that, you know, a church that is
comprised of just one segment,
gosh, it just wouldn't be a very good
church, right? Can you imagine,
I'm not a golfer, but I'll use a
golf metaphor, a golf bag that only had
drivers in it. Yeah. K. It's not gonna
work very well. Right. Or a restaurant that
only served one
entree.
Right? Or a garden that had only one
type of plant.
Right? And so
having differences in the church community
is incredibly valuable, right? Because if you go
back let's go back to that slide for
just a second, and let's look at the
bumper stickers for these six segments. We have
people that want to seek, be, and do
good.
Do we need that in the church community?
Yeah. Yes. We have people that wanna love
and lift individuals.
Do we need that? Yeah. Yes. We have
people that wanna obey and defend the church.
Do we need that? Yeah. We do.
We have people that kinda wanna go their
own way. We even need them. Right. Right?
Because they there's something that they can teach
us about our community and about ourselves.
We have people that strengthen the community. That
is their mindset. That is what they live
for. Do we need that? Absolutely.
And we have people that want to seek
spiritual encounters and have them.
And do we need that? I think we
do from time to time. Yeah. Right? And
so there's value in all these differences,
and they're good.
There are a couple of reasons why I
think this model's really helpful, and we'll get
into it. Number one is there's a bit
of a disconnect
when most of your leadership comes from one
segment. Right. Right? So if you have 20%
of your members
providing 90 plus percent of your leadership,
you immediately have a disconnect. Now what might
that disconnect look like? Well, and let me
ask you before we go there is, why
do you think that is? Like, maybe the
answer is obvious, but, I mean, obvious, the
protectors.
Right? The, what is it? The the protectors,
the clarity, certainty, order. I think I mean,
my my guess would be these are very
administrative calling, so order and, you know, making
everything
be in in bounds is is
can create stimulates control, and things don't go
off off kilter too quickly. Right? I mean
but what would you say? I think that's
an incredibly good question.
You're sensing that I'm being measured here.
You know, I've experienced this in my corporate
life as well. Yeah. You know, and so
I offer this perspective
with a lot of humility. Yeah. Because it's
a complicated question
and I don't know if I know. Yeah.
But I'll give you a thought.
If you think you're in a war,
you put soldiers in leadership.
Yeah. And so I think the predominant culture
of the church is we're in a war.
Now I don't mean that in a literal
sense,
but the history of our church, you know,
we came out of Missouri, Illinois,
and, you know, Ohio, New York, and we
were persecuted, and we were harmed, and we
we bunkered into the Salt Lake Valley, and
it was us against the world.
And that was appropriate and necessary for a
long time. And having a Brigham Young at
the top really Yeah. Brigham Young was things
happen. And you know what? He was he
was a tough guy. Yeah. He was a
tough guy. And so if you're literally under
assault, and there are many members of the
church, you know, we know we're not under
assault today
in the sense that they were in the
eighteen fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties, where literally
they were under potential
physical
harm. Yeah. Right? But if you believe that
if that's our heritage,
and this ball got rolling a long time
ago,
and you believe that that you maybe are
at risk,
then you want the kind of leaders that
are all about circling the wagons. Yeah. Right?
Get those wagons circled, get in line, do
what's right, don't mess around. You know,
historians, LDS historians will be aware of the
sort of the reformation that Brigham Young initiated
in the late I think it was late
eight fifth 1850s.
And, you know, you have to go back
to the cultural context of that. It was
it was an uncertain and scary time.
And he was
concerned about
the lack of orthodoxy
and faithfulness in the members. So he kind
of initiated a crackdown. Yeah. Right? Now I
know And most members got rebaptized. Yeah. Yeah.
Like, to show your name. Once again. Yeah.
We're gonna we're gonna be sure. Right? And
so I think that's it's a I believe
it's a legacy of that that we haven't
yet completely outgrown. Right? Now, today, we're not
being threatened physically so much, but I think
people feel spiritual and ideological
threats. Yeah. And so, again, there's a bit
of a circle of the wagons. Remember the
amygdala, fear.
Circle the wagons, conformity.
Let's just make sure that we have a
lot of leaders that are protectors. Yeah. Right?
Because protecting and defending of the church feels
really important if you think you're in a
battle. Yeah. Right? And, that's what I add
maybe is more superficial than that. I'm just
thinking, like, if you go back to your
thought process maybe as a mission president when
you were Yeah. Selecting assistance to the president.
Right? Or as a bishop selecting counselors or
a bishop selecting a elders quorum president, recite
president, you're kind of overwhelmed by the experience.
For sure. You don't need another task. You
don't need one more person to mentor. So
it's like, who can I call who's gonna
get it done? Who can be that soldier?
Right? And so, naturally, we go to those
people who are stable, who are orderly.
Because sometimes
the seeker, you're like, is he gonna take
a left turn? You know? Like Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, bless his heart. I'm glad he's
here. I'm I appreciate his comments in Sunday
school, but I need a task done. Right?
And Yeah. Of course, the spirit's involved in
all these, but it is, I hope it
gives leaders pause a step back and be
like, 90%?
Like Yeah. Yeah. And What what how am
I what what's happening that's contributing to that?
Well, you know what I think is is
kinda cool is
we have presidencies.
Yeah. Right?
And,
you know, at a ward level, we have
many presidencies, right? Every auxiliary
and the Bishop has a presidency.
So there's room
for
putting leadership
groups in place
that maybe can help you reach the entire
congregation instead of just one particular mindset.
You know, there's a term I've hear I've
heard used about the Quorum of the Twelve.
They often say, Revelation is scattered among us.
Yeah. Okay. So they sense
the value in having different perspectives.
Right. As a mission president
early,
you know, my amygdala was firing pretty hard,
you know,
I probably was more prone
to pick protectors for my leadership positions. Yeah.
Right? As I became more comfortable
in that calling
and less fearful,
and as I got to know the missionaries
better, and I began to understand how different
they all were. And then I would see,
for example, that, you know, that prototypical
protector zone leader? Yeah. Yeah. Right? You know,
you know
I served with many of them. By the
way, my nickname as a young missionary in
Sydney, Australia was Captain Jeff.
Okay, so that tells you where I was
at when I was 19.
And I just saw those
protectors not being able to reach
everybody. Yeah. Right?
And so I started to blend.
Yeah. And what I found is
one of my favorite things to do would
be to put two zone leaders or two
sister training leaders together that were completely
different. Mhmm. Right? A cultivator with a protector
is a great combination.
Yeah. Right? Because one is ensuring order and
the other is nurturing the missionaries,
right? And both are important.
And so, yeah, I think it's a great
question. And I Look, I absolutely believe that
the Holy Ghost leads us and inspires us
in our leadership, if we're paying attention, if
we're listening.
But I also know the Holy Ghost
doesn't tell you what to do, it responds
to your questions. Yeah. Okay? I mean, if
you look at the Book of Mormon and
Nephi's pattern with the spirit, or the entire
Doctrine and Covenants is Joseph Smith doing a
Q and A with the Lord. Yeah. Okay?
You gotta ask the right questions. And so,
who are the counselors that I should pick
that will ensure order and stability in my
ward?
That's one answer. Who are the counselors that
I should pick that will allow me to
reach and nurture
as many people in the ward as I
possibly can? Yeah. That's a different answer. Right.
Right. K. And I definitely don't wanna because
one thing just being in the space of
church leadership often,
I get the the horror stories or you
wouldn't believe what my bishop did, and they're
often these protectors where Yeah. They almost go
to a pharisaical place. But and I just
hesitate. I it breaks my heart when I
hear that we often you know, individuals
could sort of throwing the bishop under the
bus where it's like, I think there's more
going on there. And There there is. There
there's not and we shouldn't say just because
there's 90%. To me, that's just like, well,
that is really interesting
to consider, but that doesn't mean we should
never or we should certainly avoid having these
type of people in roles, you know. But
Yeah. Let that's a great segue into but
let let's talk about the value and drawbacks
of the segments. Right?
So
if I think about the bishops
I had growing up, or the stake presidents,
or my mission president,
or the friends I have in the church
now,
they're, you know, they're kind of all across
these segments.
But for sure, the leaders mostly have been
protectors,
But if they're rooted in Christ, they are
phenomenal.
So it's not that a protector, you know,
we need to worry about protectors or we
shouldn't have protectors as leaders.
We just would hope that they would be
rooted in Christ. Because if they're rooted in
Christ,
those protective instincts are tempered
by the teachings and attributes of the savior.
And so I'm not going to use names,
but I have a really really good friend
who is,
you know, one of my best friends in
the world
and a fishing buddy.
And he is absolutely a protector,
but he is incredibly Christ like.
And he is a phenomenal church leader and
he can connect with anyone.
Right? And it's because he has
a mind and heart of Christ in addition
to,
you know, that, hey, we need to have
stability and order. And he's a beautiful, beautiful
leader.
The danger would be that if you're a
protector
and that mindset
dominates so much that you forget to be
led by Christ and then you become a
Pharisee. Right? And we know how Christ felt
about those folks.
But to be balanced,
every group
has strengths
and every group, if not rooted in Christ
would have big liabilities. Now, cultivators, for example,
I often find myself drawn to cultivators as
I get older because my mindset is loving
with people, you know, nourish them, help them,
strengthen them. And so I tend
to have a warm heart for people I
see that do that,
and it just seems so important right now
to me. And so I love it when
I see leaders and members of the church
that are inclined that way. But, you know,
cultivators, if they're not rooted in Christ, they
can become rebellious
and disruptive. Yeah. And so you asked about,
you know, why does this matter? Well, a
classic conflict that we have in the church
is the conflict between authority and conscience.
That would be between a protector and a
cultivator. Mhmm. Where a protector is saying, look,
we need to follow
the doctrines and policies as a church. We're
gonna do that with exact obedience
and we're not gonna flex. And so don't
ask us to flex. And that cultivator might
say, but this situation is unique and this
individual,
there's a, the spirit
is more important than the letter.
And the spirit would suggest that we do
this, not that. And then, then you have
this conflict of authority and conscience.
Right? And that conflict, that exact conflict plays
out in the church every single day all
around the world. Yeah. Right?
Now,
you said this in your own words a
minute ago. If we all understand that there
are six types of us, and we all
understand that each type is essential and necessary
in the church,
and we all understand that whatever type we
are, we have our own liabilities
and that we're supposed to
value each other and come together in this
beautiful, messy harmony.
Then if you happen to have a protector
bishop that rubs you the wrong way,
you can see him in a different light
from a broader context, from a higher set
of principles. And you can say, Okay, I
understand why he maybe is doing that.
Now, so I'm I'm gonna support him and
be patient
Mhmm. In this challenge
because
I see the value of the stability and
protection that he's trying to bring to our
community. Yeah. Right? Now, I would hope that
the protective bishop would do the same thing.
Instead of feeling threatened
by somebody who's not strictly
following,
you know, all the steps on the map,
they would say, Well, I understand why that
person might have that perspective.
I'm not threatened by that. I know that
their hearts are good. I know that we're
on the same team and we're working towards
the same goal.
And they're worried about
nurturing
the community,
and I'm worried about protection and stability,
and we actually need both. And so that's
a good thing. Yeah. Right. And another point
I feel like is important to make is
that just because, like, the protect, for instance,
it doesn't mean they're always an orthodox or
religious person. Because I've been in or have
witnessed some groups that are could be more
critical of the church as an institution.
Yeah. And they have their own protectors. They
do. And they have their own orthodoxy. They
do. And so it's in whatever group where
I feel like in some groups, I'm like,
well, I'm more of a connector here. And
they're suddenly, I meet their protector, and they're
like, you're doing it wrong. I'm like, says
who? Or they'll be critical of the church
of being well, the church is doing it
wrong. Like, says who? Like, they're just different.
It's just such a unique dynamic that Well,
that insight's a really powerful one. That, you
know, protectors are basically about the orthodoxy
of
the dominant group. Right? Yeah. So you could
be in an incredible this isn't a political
thing, but let's just say you
you hop over into
incredibly liberal progressive political space.
There can be really
high levels of conformity and orthodoxy in that
space. Right? Yeah. Like, to the point that
if you're not bored, you're you're out of
here. And the same, of course, would be
true on the conservative side of the spectrum.
Yeah. Absolutely. Right? So it's really about
complying with the expectations
of the dominant group. Yeah. And our natural
impulse is how do we bring them all
into this how can we all be protectors?
It's just recognizing that we're different and that
we are all playing a different role here.
Absolutely. That's good. I pause it. Look. I
we're not all in one segment. Right?
We're a blend. But
which one is your dominant segment?
Man, I mean,
definitely, like, there's a lot in the protector
that I resonate with. Yeah. You know, even
though people may watch leading saints and, you
know, we have dynamic discussions like this or
Yes. I seem a little bit more nuanced
or but I don't know. Sometimes I show
up on Sunday, and I like you know?
You like that order? The the the order,
the white shirt and tie. If someone's critical
of the church as an institution online, I'm
like, hey. Wait a minute here. Yeah. Yeah.
You know? And there's certain people I'd probably
never have on the podcast because I'm like,
I'm not Yeah. I can't go there. Going
there. Right? Yeah. I can't go there. At
the same time, I love the I feel
I resonate a lot with that cultivator of
Yeah. You know, I don't I don't have
to do this podcast. I can go get
a job somewhere else. Or but I love
the feeling of Zion of coming together. Like,
what do you think? What does this person
think? And how can we cultivate together? But,
definitely, serving right now as a elder school
president, I've really shown up there as a
connector. There was even feedback I got from
one elder who's new in the ward, and
he's sorta like,
this is cool. Like, you guys are all
about brotherhood, but Yeah. I don't know if
I brought someone to the church who's investigating
the church, it'd be nice to have a
little more doctrine here. I'm like, oh, a
little protector here. Alright. You know? Yeah. There
you go. And to me, I took that
of, like, oh, like, it helped it helped
me gain some self awareness being like, yeah.
Maybe we are maybe we can make some
adjustments, and that's good. Right? Yeah. Man, I
like that. And I'm glad you said connector
because I see
protector, cultivator, and connector in you. I don't
know anybody that I think knows more people
and is making more connections and bringing people
together more in the community than you. Yeah.
And so I I appreciate that you see
that in yourself. I hope so. Yeah. Yeah.
For sure. Okay. Now now we're things are
gonna get really interesting. Okay.
Which segment was Jesus? Oh, man. He was
all things at all times. I mean, I
the seeker, I mean By by the way
the connector. Just so everybody knows. This is
just Kurt and Jeff Yeah. Spitballing it. You
know, we we don't really know. We're just
having some fun and using the model to
learn. Yeah. I mean, because I I can
think of moments of even him being the
protector with the Pharisees, like, sort of protector
against protector. Right? Like, I need to protect,
you know, my father's will and you guys
are not doing it right. And they're looking
at him like you're not doing it right.
That's a great insight.
But I mean, obviously
the connector at times, but more the explorer
I'm just seeing, like, there are moments where
he's connecting people to his gospel. Other times
he's saying, hey, don't go doc about this.
Yeah. I'm trying to do something here. Don't
you know, of maybe the avoider. You need
to be an avoider for a bit. Yeah.
You know? Don't go tell people I healed
you. You know? Yeah. Well, you know, so
what I'm hearing you say I totally dodged
that question before you start. No. No. You
did. You didn't. And what I'm hearing you
say is there were big pieces of him
in all of these areas. Yeah.
It's interesting.
Was he ever an avoider?
Man. I mean, he definitely took time to
himself at times. He left for a while,
didn't he? Forty days and forty nights. He
said, look. I need to go now there
was probably some explorer in him. Right? He
was searching for
spiritual guidance and affirmation of his, you know,
special mission. Yeah. But there were times when
he stepped away. Yeah. Right? Or he maybe
went around a city or something. Yeah. I
don't need to deal with what's going on
there. Yeah. And, you know, this is just
my personal opinion. I I see all of
the segments in him and that's what you
would expect. Right? You would expect that kind
of incredible
spiritual and emotional intelligence and agility.
And yet I think if I see one
segment that
seemed heavy
in him, it was cultivator.
Mhmm. Right? He was Yeah. He was all
about
helping people
transform themselves. Right? Become a new creature in
Christ.
Receive his image in your countenance,
a mighty change of heart. Those are cultivator
kind of sentiments.
And go and sin no more. Yeah. Right?
Yeah. Take up your bed and walk.
And so I, I love that part of
his teachings.
Now, if you're a cultivator,
you're gonna really be drawn to that part
of his ministry.
If you're a protector,
you know, you're gonna be drawn to kind
of priesthood and authority and the church and
the organization of the church, and they're both
really important, but that's why we sometimes have
some tension.
Right? Love it. K. Love it. Alright. A
couple more. Okay. Joseph Smith.
Man. I mean, a seeker. Right? I mean,
early on in his life, he was seeking
Absolutely. Early on. Seeker, for sure.
I mean, he did cultivate a lot. He
did cultivate a lot. Communities,
build cities, and they
explode. Right? He brought back the concept
of Zion. Mhmm. Right? Building a Zion community.
That's connecting and cultivating at its best.
And I'd pause it the the avoider one
where I can't necessarily think of a moment
where he was seeking independence, but it's almost
like sometimes God had to put him in
a jail cell and be like, you just
need to think for a few months, you
know?
Yeah. Sit tight.
Yeah. You know, I think those are really
good observations. I also sense I don't know
for sure it'd be interesting to talk to
a really world class Joseph Smith historian and
ask him this question. But I've read most
of the biographies on him. And I think
early on, seeker, explorer,
middle part of his life, and he obviously
he died young,
cultivator, connector.
I think there was a fair bit of
protector in him at the end. Well, the
fact that make sure the press is destroyed.
Right? I mean, which led to his his
assassination.
Yeah. Now here's the interesting thing. Why?
What might have been the arc of his
dynamic evolution?
You invest so much of yourself into a
mission and cause, like and then there's a
threat to it. You know? And I think
of that of, like sometimes I I try
and have a real talk with myself of,
like, am I just sort of staying in
this box simply because I've been in this
box for so long? Yeah. You know? And
for to step out, that would take a
lot of courage in admitting that maybe I
was wrong in the past. But Yeah. And
I think there's I think God builds that
into us because, you know, the the cognitive
biases because
it does create some stability and and so
forth. But, yeah. It's Yeah. You know, I
I think at the end of his life,
he had something to lose. Mhmm. And if
you have something to lose, you have something
to protect. Yeah. Right? So he had built
this incredible community, this incredible
church,
and it was under assault. Yeah. And so
I think those protective instincts would naturally come
out in that environment. Maybe you can only
be driven out so many times before you're
like, I've had it. So if you're in
a war, you are a soldier. Yeah. Right?
And so I I think I can look
at that with a lot of compassion. I
what what would I have done under similar
circumstances?
And it's easy to go to a place
of, like, well, what should he have been
in those? Yeah. You know? Should he have
maintained that seeking? But and I think that's
part of the inspiration of our church, the
revelation that it's not necessarily god tells us
something, but he sort of changes us Yeah.
And we act differently
whether that's more the natural man or god
inspiring it. You know, god's prepared for those
things. Yeah. No. That's that's great insight. Hey,
let's do one more.
Kurt, I've also spent a lot of time
looking at the life of Nephi through this
lens.
And, you know, Nephi obviously is
an incredible
hero to many active members of the church
and he's, you know, the main
person in the Book of Mormon, really. Well,
you know, he's one of the main ones.
There are several, but he's The one we
read the most. He's one that we Yeah.
We always we always read the first two
chapters of the Book of Mormon
before we get distracted. Yeah. But, you know,
how would you describe the ark of Nephi's
life
using this model?
Yeah. And then I think this is a
good example that I naturally wanna go, well,
these aren't in any order, right? They're just
they are what they are because it's not
like we all start as seekers. No. But,
you know, I will go and do that's
a lot of protection. Like By the way,
I think in our church community, I think
most of us are brought into the church
community and raised in the church community,
and we have the mindset of protector. Right.
Right? That's where we mostly start. That would
also be consistent with McLaren's model of stage
one is simplicity,
protector.
And I think that goes you analyze any
household
in or out of the church. Parents naturally
want to protect their child. We're going to
teach you things that will protect you rather
than Boundaries. We don't want you go exploring.
No. No. Boundaries, rules. It's about keeping people
safe. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So, yeah, that
protector one resonates. And then just I think
about, like, shifting to that cultivator of, like,
I've gotta actually bring this family together. We
gotta build a boat. We've gotta cross the
seas. We gotta Yes. You know, a lot
of that. And then, man, by the end
is maybe more of that explorer or that
came out as he was seeking, you know,
give me my father's vision. You know? What
can I learn there? Yeah. Yeah. I mean,
that happened pretty early. That's very seeking behavior.
Right? I wanna know the things that my
father
knows. Right? So we see seeker there. We
see protector there.
I think of, you know, second Nephi where
he refers to himself. He says, oh, wretched
man that I am. Oh, yeah. That's a
real moment. That's that's not protector. Yeah. Right?
That's somebody who is
reexamining
themselves. So there's some seeker in that, like,
who am I?
What am I doing?
There's some cultidator in there because he comes
back at the end of that chapter and
says, nevertheless, I know in whom I trust.
And so you see this deep
abiding faith in him despite the conflict that
he's personally feeling.
Mhmm. Later still, I've I've said this before,
but when he says, I do not know
the meaning of all things, but I know
that God loves his children. That's not a
protector. Yeah. Right? And so, in one of
our favorite
prophets, we see
these
different segment behaviors and
so I would hope that if Nephi showed
up in a Wasatch Front Ward today,
especially the more mature Nephi later in his
life,
that people would see the good in him
and the value
even if he may not, at that point,
be the protector he was when he went
and got those plates from Laban. Yeah. Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense? That make that's great.
Alright. Super.
Well, just to kinda
sum up on the model,
you know, we're part of the same church
because we deeply share the same faith, but
we have different belief mindsets
shaped by different gifts, different experiences,
and, different spiritual needs.
And it's okay. Right? It's how God designed
us.
The culture is largely shaped by protectors
and their loyalty to the church brings really
important stability and strength. It also can push
conformity
and can be resistant to change if not
tempered by Christ like love and humility.
And so that's part of the crux of
the tension that we feel.
Belonging can feel conditional and so many feel
pressure to conform or hide who they are
to be accepted and trusted.
Many leave not because they lack belief, but
because the culture doesn't make space for their
way of seeking and learning and growing.
And my personal belief is that a Christ
centered culture
needs to embrace
the gifts, talents, motivations,
liabilities
of all six segments. And that we're at
our best when we do that through a
Christ like lens.
Love it.
Anything else we need to wrap up? Is
that, I think that's it. Okay.
Well, I mean, People
will maybe, maybe want more. Is there any
place you would send them or if they're,
you want to learn more, you know, do
you wanna talk the body of Christ for
a minute? Should we do that?
Yeah. So this is not a new problem.
Right? This has been a you know, we
we've got Fiddler on the Roof. Right? Turn
of the century Russian Jews dealing with the
tension between tradition and change.
And today we've talked about the tension from
our differences. But but one of my favorite
scriptures is first Corinthians chapter 12, where Paul
gives us incredible
doctrine to the Corinthians
on the body of Christ. And I thought
we could just We won't read like the
whole chapter, but I thought we could just
read pieces of it. And I'm I kinda
cherry picked the key points.
So what Paul said is
Well, what he does here is he addresses
the origin of our differences,
This tendency that some of us have to
withdraw when we feel like we don't belong
the other tendency. We have to judge people
who are different,
particularly those that are on the margins
and why this all matters. Right? And so
here's what he said. He said, for the
body is not one member, but many.
At least six that I can count. Right?
And if the ear shall say, because I
am not the eye, I am not of
the body, is it therefore not of the
body? Well, no. Of course, the it is
part of the body. And if the whole
body were an eye, where were the hearing?
If the whole were hearing, where were the
smelling?
And then he gets into
where our differences come from. But now hath
God set the members, every one of them
in the body as it hath pleased him.
So why would God do that? Wouldn't it
be better if we were all just one
segment, you know, whether we're kingfishers or magpies,
we're all the same. Yeah. And
I think if God's objective for us was
comfort and security,
that's what he would have done. But that's
not his plan. His plan is growth and
change. Yeah. Right? So he made a very
messy stew that would force us to confront
these issues.
And then Paul goes on and says, now
he's gonna talk about judgment. And the eye
cannot say under the hand, I have no
need of thee, nor again the head to
the feet, I have no need of you.
Nay,
much more those members so no judgment. Can't
do that. And then he says, speaking of
those who are on the margins, nay, not
much more those members of the body, which
seem to be more feeble,
are necessary. And those members of the body,
which seem to be less honorable
upon these we bestow more abundant honor, and
our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
K. And so he has a very strong
perspective on the so called least of us.
Right? And then he says, for our comely
parts have no need, but God hath tempered
the body together, having given more abundant
honor to that part which lacked.
And then he tells us why. That there
should be no schism in the body, but
the members should have the same care one
for another.
That sounds like a great church. Yeah. Right?
That sounds like a great church. And I
love the paradox of being we're united because
we're different. Yeah. And thinking about this, I
I couldn't wait to ask you this question
because I I respect
your connection to the community. I respect the
service you've had as a Bishop. You're an
elders quorum president now.
So do you think Paul's just being nice?
Okay. These feeble and comely parts,
they really matter a lot more than you,
unfeagle and un and comely parts? Yeah. Or
is there some deeper spiritual meaning in that?
I bet there is. Yeah. What do you
I mean, what do you think? Well, just
the, you know, the person so outside the
box that comes in and and engages with
the community that there's there's a deeper lesson
there than the person who has all wisdom
walks in to Yeah. You know, teach a
lesson. Right?
So it's stills that we naturally wanna cast
off to that we need to gather. Yeah.
You know, I I think that's right. I
had a an incredibly powerful experience with one
of my missionaries once. Now this was a
young man that is on the spectrum
and he came into our mission. You know,
from a clinical perspective, you could have argued,
well, maybe he shouldn't have served a proselyting
mission. Maybe he should have been a service
missionary,
but he was called and he came
and, you know, we stay connected to him.
We love him. He's an awesome young man,
but he was really, really struggling in the
work. And so I think it's not inaccurate
to say he fit the description of, you
know, a feeble and uncomely part.
And I could give you examples, but won't.
But I think that was a on the
surface,
an apt description of him. And I was
relatively new and we had quite a few
missionaries like that. And I was struggling as
a mission president with, why are they here?
You know, why are they here? They can't
do the work. They're actually a liability.
You know, we don't need them. Mhmm. I
was the eye saying to the hand, We
have no need of thee. And then we
had a testimony meeting our first Christmas in
the mission, and he got up and bore
his testimony.
And I couldn't believe it.
So this great young man that has
all kinds of liabilities, you
know,
physical to its smaller degree, but mental, emotional,
spiritual,
and had a 100 reasons not to serve
a mission,
And they were good
ones. And yet he came.
And the very fact that he came
was the message.
And so I watched him stand up and
he bore this incredible
testimony in his feeble way
of the atonement.
And he was the message,
right? And he said, If it were not
for the atonement, I couldn't stand here today.
And I believed him. I mean, it was
so evident that that was true.
And the spirit kind of nudged me and
just said, Hey knucklehead,
that's why they're here.
Right? The most powerful sermons I have ever
heard on compassion have not been people giving
lectures on compassion.
They are sitting in the presence of people
who are giving and receiving compassion.
And so if we have no feeble, uncomely
parts in the body,
how will we have any of those experiences
where we're required to give or receive compassion?
And will we really understand what the gospel's
all about if our concept of it is
just
abstractions that come across the pulpit? Verbal descriptions
of compassion instead of experiencing compassion firsthand.
And so I there's a method to
God's madness, if you will, that that goes
beyond conventional understanding. And I think that's why
it's so critical that we
embrace
everyone in our church community. Yeah. And there's
you know, I often say we worship a
god of paradox where so wouldn't god you
know, we we worship a god of order.
Right? What does he want order in his
church and Yeah. Everything to be out should
and and process to happen and but, yes,
just this paradox. He he'll insert these dynamics
and often they're people where it's like Yeah.
Wait a minute. Like, this one doesn't fit.
Like, send this one back. You know? Like
but in reality, it was there's so much
purpose in in them participating and and for
that wrestle of how can I find a
place for this? And and my hope is
that we don't just default to, oh, yeah.
We'll find, like, something on on the fringes
for them to do. And but what if
we brought them towards the center? Yeah. Yes.
And involve them more than we're even comfortable
with. Right? And what if it gets really
messy? Or what if the the lesson doesn't
go well? Or what if the numbers tank?
You know? Yeah. But there's transformation in that.
No. There is. You know, again, if going
back to kinda mindset because you used that
word a while ago and I think it's
so good. If you believe you're in a
war and the church is a fortress,
then
anybody that can't carry a musket needs to
sit down.
Yeah. So is that what you believe? Right?
Is that what you believe the church community
is supposed to be about? Right? Or is
there something more transcendent than that, that it's
about? Love it. Yeah. Well, so, just wrapping
up on the body of Christ. What, you
know, here's
me speculating again a little bit. What might
Paul say to us,
you know, today, if he happened to roll
through,
you know, the church here in The United
States or in the Wasatch Front?
I think he'd say we're meant to be
different.
Strict uniformity weakens the body of Christ, and
it's designed by God to be diverse.
Every member is essential.
No part is unnecessary
or inferior in God's plan.
You know, Christ taught this a lot. The
one versus the '99, the least will be
the greatest. He was trying to point this
out to us. I don't think he was
just being creatively,
you know, I don't think he was being
creative in his speech. I think he was
teaching deep spiritual principles.
When one group dominates,
other groups are silenced, overlooked, or spiritually underfed.
Without Christ like charity, the culture becomes cold,
conditional, and performative.
And, a thriving church honors all its members,
making space for everyone to grow, serve, and
belong. I think that's what Paul might say.
Yeah. And then there's no five step plan
or how to implement this, but just these
principles
of even
inviting your ward, yourself, your family to sit
with us and say, wow. Now how can
we get in that mindset where
we're not looking necessarily for one of those
six things that fit in that box, but
Yeah. There's a deeper purpose here. I agree.
I agree. By the way, our modern Paul
said similar things, so I'm just gonna toss
a couple out. President Jean Bingham
back in 2020 said, unity does not require
sameness.
We can be united in our love for
the savior even as we celebrate the diversity
he has created.
And then elder Uchtdorf
said, we are diverse. We are different. We
are not supposed to be the same. When
we rejoice in and celebrate diversity, we will
come to understand that unity is not the
same as uniformity.
And so our church leaders
are poking at this. Right? They're encouraging us
to step back and think.
Yeah. It's powerful.
Any other point principle
that we do there? No. That's that's it.
That's it on that. You know, I'd love
to share a story with you if I
could. Yeah. Let's end on that story. So,
Kurt, if it's okay, I'm gonna read this.
So I the reason I'm gonna read it
is I I had this quite profound experience
back in 2018,
and
I was moved enough by it and instructed
enough by it that I just immediately
put it on paper.
And so there's, there's a spirit and a
depth to the writing that I can't convey
if I just tell the story. And so
if you'll indulge me, I'd just like to
read it to you. So in March 2018,
I had the opportunity to attend the USA
masters track and field national championships in Landover,
Maryland,
attract meet for older people.
As some like to say, I took my
middle son, Zach. He was excited to cheer
me on in my competition.
And this happened to be during the time
that I was doing a ton of research
on the way religious culture and communication
influenced both how people come to belief
and their relationship with their churches.
I'd learned a lot about this dynamic and
about the factors that cause both conversion and
disaffiliation
in the church.
And I was personally wrestling with trying to
better understand the relative importance of our history,
doctrines and policies, and our culture in all
of this. And I certainly wasn't expecting to
get any insights that attract me. Well, Zach
and I settled into our seats to watch
some of the events. And by the way,
I was competing,
but this was before my competition.
You may find this hard to believe, but
Masters track and field is extraordinarily
underrated.
And so throughout the championships, each event offered
its own mix of drama, awe, and inspiration.
In this indoor arena in front of about
3,000 spectators, men and women well into their
eighties and nineties,
elite world class athletes even at that age.
Others are typical kind of weekend warriors who
come with braces and wraps, and visible signs
of health issues,
nursing injuries, or just significant maladies of aging.
And all of them from the most elite
to the most humble walk together into the
arena of competition.
As the events transpired, Zach and I slowly
began to see things as they really were
at this meet. It became clear that there
was something more important and powerful taking place
here than a series of contests to see
who would win and who would lose. This
was a gathering place for people from every
walk of life wanting to be part of
something that matters,
to overcome whatever barrier was in front of
them, age,
injury, obesity,
loneliness,
anxiety,
discouragement,
and self doubt,
or to simply be the best version of
who they could be, to show up,
to try,
to sweat,
to face fear, to laugh,
to cry,
to hurt, to finish,
to win, yes, but far more often, to
lose.
So to remind themselves that they are alive
and that life is worth living and people
are good. Of course, attract meat isn't the
church, but it's been my experience that a
significant part of what we want and need
from our church experience is similar. To be
part of a community and a mission
that is important and matters
and where we feel a sense of being
needed and belonging, a place where we can
both give light and receive light and love,
and to be drawn to the highest and
most noble part of our nature,
a place to be gathered and embraced.
There was one race that helped me see
the competition
as the sacred ground that it is. It
was the men's 80 and over
1,500
meter run. Okay. That's a little less than
a mile.
12 competitors lined
up, including Orville Rogers,
a man who was 100 years old,
the same age president Nelson is now. Wow.
K. When the starter fired his pistol, the
runners took off
with Orville settling immediately into last place.
He remained there for the entire race, shuffling
along very slowly
as the other competitors lapped him multiple times.
Wow. The winner of the race, Oliver Grant,
age 82,
finished in seven minutes and fifty four seconds.
Try that. Yeah. You know, he was 82.
An astonishing time for his age when Al
Ray, the last runner besides Orville, finished at
fourteen minutes.
The crowd was certainly aware that Orville still
had about two and a half laps to
go. As he continued, nearly 3,000 spectators sat
quietly watching him slowly make his way around
the track,
completely,
silently,
and uncomfortably
by himself.
When the final lap began, the crowd rose
to their feet,
cheering and applauding.
By the time he hit the home stretch,
the crowd was roaring.
Roughly 30 meters from the finish line, he
called on his very rest last reserves of
energy, moving from a a slow shuffle
to something resembling a sprint.
The crowd erupted with delight as he crossed
the finish line with a time of twenty
minutes
and point nine one seconds
and was welcomed and embraced by his competitors
waiting beyond the finish line.
Orville humbly and gratefully waved to the crowd
and walked off the track with his new
friends.
It was astonishing to see a 100 year
old man do this.
I didn't know the full extent of the
story until the next day when I read
about mister Rogers' entire performance.
Incredibly, the 1,500 meter race was Orville's
fifth race of the competition.
He'd already competed in the 60,
the 200,
the 400, and the 800.
And in every race, he finished
last.
He was, after all, 100 years old.
But there's still more to the story.
In each event, he broke the age group
world record
five times.
What struck me the most that day
was how in a world so focused on
celebrating champions, the elite, the people who do
the best and are the best, the spirited
crowd gave its greatest ovations
to the losers.
Those who did not not win but finished,
often against daunting odds. And I'm sure, as
you can imagine, it takes incredible per- courage
to put on a track uniform,
step into an arena in front of thousands
of people when you know you will not
win and you may finish last. And yet,
there they were, a community of resilient souls,
each one taking on much more than just
the clock or their competitors.
As I was absorbing the inspiring goodness of
it all, Zach noticed the emotion in my
eyes.
And he said, I think I know what's
going on here, dad. We we came expecting
to watch a track meet, but instead we're
watching an exhibition in celebration of the human
spirit.
Elie Wiesel once said, The opposite of love
is not hate.
It's indifference.
What does this have to do with why
people we love are leaving The Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints?
One of the reasons too many of our
family and friends are stepping away is because
they do not feel a sense of meaningful
connection and belonging in our church community.
They may not fit, for many different reasons,
the typical profile of a traditional Latter day
Saint and feel out of place.
They may not be able to relate
or see themselves and their families in an
LDS way of life that is often conveyed
in the culture as very idealistic and aspirational,
leaving them with the sense that they are
somehow insufficient or doing something wrong.
They may have come to
and expressed their belief and faith in ways
that are less traditional and feel others pull
away
when they voice thoughts that are not sufficiently
orthodox.
And they are too often treated with a
degree of disregard or marginalized for this. And
all of these things are common
if the cultural soil is hard and unyielding,
so focused on itself that it is indifferent
to the seeds struggling to find root. There's
so many insights that came to me that
day about this problem, how everyone, regardless of
their ability, appearance, or fitness level, was vitally
important
and a valued part of what was happening,
How the most capable and elite athletes, absent
any self absorption or pride,
recognized that this competition was not about them,
but was about something much bigger and the
genuine love and respect they felt and showed
for their less able competitors.
How the culture of this meat and everything
that leads up to it is for the
benefit
of the people.
And how lifeless and sterile the whole thing
would have been without the losers.
Those competitors
who come for their own reasons and do
the best they can
as one of the losers that day.
I felt grateful, seen,
valued, needed, unjudged,
successful,
and at home.
I felt light that was life giving and
I wanted more. And I'm grateful that so
many of us feel this way in our
church community
and deeply saddened that far too many don't
because they don't fit in this soil that
we sometimes
cultivate.
I often hear people justify hard and unyielding
soil by arguing that God's standards are high
and can't be compromised.
I agree. And therein is the paradox God
has given us to deal with,
the tension between standards and acceptance and how
to balance them with the need to truly
love others as the savior would. The outpouring
of love and light in Landover that day
did not require a single rule or standard
to be lowered or changed.
Every race was precisely measured,
times to a hundredth of a second,
and strictly officiated.
No one cut corners on the track or
jumped over a lower bar or fewer hurdles.
No one got to throw a lighter shot
put.
There was even random drug testing, though I
couldn't help but wonder what performance enhancing drugs
really do for a 90 year old. They
even awarded medals for the three kingdoms of
glory,
celestial gold,
terrestrial silver, and celestial bronze.
In every way, the standards remained uncompromised,
and in no way did those standards overshadow
the love and light that was there in
great abundance for everyone that shared in the
experience.
For one simple reason,
everyone
understood
this wasn't really a track meet held to
determine and reward
winners.
And Jesus said, but many that are first
shall be last, and the last first. Mark
ten thirty one.
That concludes this episode of the Leading Saints
podcast. Hey. Listen. Would you do me a
favor? You know, everybody's got that friend who
listens to a ton of podcasts, and maybe
they aren't aware of Leading Saints. So would
you mind taking the link of this episode
or another episode of Leading Saints and just
texting it to that friend? You know who
I'm talking about. The friend who always listens
to podcasts and is always telling you about
different podcasts. Well, it's your turn to tell
that friend about Leading Saints. So share it.
We'd also love to hear from you. If
you have any perspective or thought on this
episode, you can go to leadingsaints.org
and actually leave a comment on the, episode
page or reach out to us at leading
saints dot org slash contact.
Remember, go to leadingsaints.org/14
to access the remarkable presentation by Anthony Sweat
about ambiguity and doctrine.
It came as a result of the position
of leadership which was imposed upon us
by the God of heaven, who brought
forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus
Christ.
When the declaration
was made concerning the only
true and living Church upon the face of
the earth,
we were immediately put in a position
of loneliness,
the loneliness of leadership
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,
and to which we must face up with
boldness and courage
and ability.