Have you ever tried to help youth with
their mental health? Wowza.
That's a tricky road to travel. I have
to tell you about an inspiring presentation we
recorded with the one and only Jodie Moore.
Yes. That life coaching Jody Moore. A few
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covering topics like normalizing tough feelings with youth,
a more positive understanding of stress, how to
minimize shame,
and mastering the skill set of empathy
and better understanding anxiety.
I want you to see this presentation as
soon as you finish this podcast episode. You
can go to leadingsaints.org/fourteen,
and this will get you access to the
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Jody's presentation is in the Mentally Healthy Saints
library, and you'll be a better leader or
parent when you finish it. Again, go to
leadingsaints.org/14
or check out the show notes for the
link.
The following episode is a throwback episode, one
that was published previously and was extremely popular.
To see the details of when this was
originally published, see the show notes. Enjoy this
throwback episode.
In this episode, I talk with Clint Pulver.
If you don't know Clint Pulver,
I consider him a friend. He is awesome.
What he's doing in life, he is living
his larger story in ways that make me
get up in the morning and say, I
gotta keep up with Clint Pulver. He's doing
some great stuff. He wrote a book called
I Love It Here, How Great Leaders Create
Organizations Their People Never Want to Leave. And,
obviously, he wrote it for, just a, you
know, general leadership audience. But
this book is
so helpful, could be so helpful for leaders
in the church to say, you know what?
How do great leaders create wards and quorums
and relief society organizations? Their people never want
to leave. And we discussed these some of
these principles here. We don't give it justice.
His research and all the things that went
into this book, you've gotta check it out,
and you're going to love it. But just
a fantastic conversation.
In the beginning, we're sort of,
I hope you don't we're sort of, you
know, beating around these principles a little bit
and trying to to fill out some running
room here.
And sometimes it come across that we're sort
of coming down hard on leaders or, you
know, they gotta do this differently that. Hey.
Just step back and listen with an open
heart, and that's at the end of the
day, you know, maybe we don't know what
we're talking about, and you can move on
to their principles. But such a good book,
well researched. Here's my interview with Clint Pulver,
the author of I Love It Here.
So here I am with, Clint Pulver, the
former guest of of the Leading Saints podcast.
How are you, Clint? I'm doing really well,
Kurt. Thanks for having me back. Well, I
couldn't resist having you back. You just came
out with a book and a book that
I love, has love in the title as
well, called I Love It Here, How Great
Leaders Create Organizations
Their People Never Want to Leave. And we
talked a little bit about this on, on
our first interview. I think we touched on
some broader principles. But just tell us about
this journey. Like, how's it been writing a
book, and, how's everybody responding to it? I
will never do it again.
That is Right. Oh, it has been the
hardest thing probably in my life. It's been
four years. And I think here's the thing.
It's one thing to write a book, but
then when you tie research into it, it's
just a whole another ball of craziness.
Yeah. This was a 181
organizations that I've worked with. In over four
years, I've interviewed over 10,000
employees
undercover.
And so it was the program called the
undercover millennial programs, kinda like undercover boss without
the makeup. And myself being a millennial, I
would go into these organizations
as someone who was looking for a job.
And I would just walk up to the
first person I saw, and I would say,
hey. What's it like to work here? I'm
just I'm thinking about applying. You know? Would
you recommend it? And then the employee always
gets quiet. You know? They look around, and
it feels like an illegal drug exchange.
And then they tell me everything. Everything. The
good, the bad, what they love, what they
hate, why they hate it, why they love
it. And the cool part is, you know,
I
got honesty. I got authentic answers. This was
not I didn't want it to be another
leadership book written by a, you know, a
leadership expert.
I wanted the book written through the lens
of 10,000 employees who knew when their leaders
were getting it right. And it was just
yeah. It was so much work, but it
was so cool because their stories
were told. They didn't know that they were
being told, but they were told. Yeah. And
and, you know, and then and that's why
I called the book I Love It Here
is when that would trend in an organization,
when I would go to the first employee,
then the second, and the third, and they
would say, I love it here. You gotta
apply. I love my manager, Susie. She's amazing.
You need to apply. And then when I
would find out what those leaders were doing
to create that type of a response
in their organization.
And so Yeah. That's why I call it.
And as I read through the book, I
just so much appreciated the parallels I saw
from you know, obviously, you're right in the
context of, you know, business organizations or, you
know, organizations in general, but there's so many
parallels to church organization. And and it's interesting.
We talked a little bit about this before
we hit record of of the dynamic in
the church,
in our church, as far as loving your
ward. Right? And there's there's moments, and I'm
moving into a ward right now. And and,
you know, there's and I've been in other
wards. I haven't felt it from this ward.
This seems like a great ward. But, you
know, you move into a ward and you
sort of say, how is it how is
it here? Or how's the primary or whatever?
And and maybe you're in a casual setting
and people might say, like, alright. Listen. You
know, it's great that, you know, the primary
presidency struggles or whatever and or, you know,
whatever the the issue is. And so but
in our in our church dynamic, it's interesting
because we sort of don't have a choice.
Like a, you know, someone running a business,
it's like, oh, well, we gotta make sure
our people love it here because they can
quit tomorrow and go work somewhere else. Where
in the church, it's sort of like, well,
you live here. You're gonna have to move.
And, unfortunately,
ward. And so but sometimes we take it
for granted that, you know, we're, you know,
I'm a church leader. I'm not experienced. So,
you know, I'll do my best, but you
have to attend here regardless. So, you know,
and so I appreciated some of those parallels.
Do do you see some of these in
in your own experience in the church? Yeah.
Totally. I mean, in even on the business
sense. Like, I would go I would work
with Verizon,
and I would go into one Verizon store,
and it would be amazing. And then I'd
go into another Verizon store literally four blocks
down the street, and their retention was
so low, disengaged employees, people hated their job,
turnover was constant, and you see that in
the church. Right? You have those people where
you're like, man, I just our ward is
so good. Like, I'm in the best ward
that I've ever been in. And then you
you you do have it. It's like, nah.
This ward's okay. It's not like our last
ward. Like, I remember in singles wards. Like,
every singles ward, hour by hour, is in
the same chapel. It's in the same building,
but they all had a different culture. It's
the same gospel,
different culture.
It comes down to leadership. It comes down
to those decisions that the leaders are making
in that chapel, in that ward that, yes,
obviously, we're teaching the same gospel, but there's
more to it than that when we're trying
to create a good culture in our ward.
And that's what I wanna do during these
interviews, maybe explore some of those concepts that
will hopefully push people to to check out
the book. But, you know, what are some
some basic things that people can do to
start
doing things differently so that people begin to
say, you know, this is this is where
I wanna be, you know, because there's this
quote in in, you put in the book,
says reality is if your people can't grow
where they are, they will leave and grow
somewhere else. And, again, that doesn't mean that
they'll leave the ward and go somewhere else,
but they may leave mentally, you know, or
they may leave culturally and say, I I
show up for sacrament, but I'm not engaging
here in the ward. Right? I guarantee you
right now, Kurt, there are so many members
of the church that, unfortunately and maybe this
could just be a bad perception. This is
not research. This is just my own, like,
observations of where I'm at right now in
our stake and in our ward. I think
there's many, many, many members. The only time
that they're really connecting with Christ, they really
are associating with our ward is for that
sixty minutes on Sunday during your your virtual
sacrament meeting. Mhmm. No. That's it? Yeah. That's
it? Like, when when else are we meeting?
What else are we doing? Like, I think
engagement is at a all time low. And,
yes, we have come follow me. Yes. You
need to be doing stuff at home. Yes.
You should still be ministering. But there is
something about us gathering together, having the connection,
seeing your neighbors more than once every six
months that helps to create that. So so
first of all, I we need to call
a spade a spade. It's just hard right
now. Yeah. Like, there's Yeah. Bishops, there's stake
presidents that are listening to this, and they're
like, yeah, dude. I get it. I remember
how it was before, but it's not the
same way right now. And it is just
tough. And I so I think, like, first,
like, admitting that. Like, be okay with realizing
that it's not the way it used to
be, but also be open to the possibilities
that we can change a few things. I
mean and you're right. Like, the quote that
you you talked about, like, millennials, the younger
generation, they can go to Google. Like, why
should they go to virtual church? Why should
they sit in on virtual young men's thing
you're gonna sit there and ask some awkward
questions and hang out and talk about careers?
Like, why? Why would they do that when
they can go and just get the answers
on Google? So the point, I guess, I'm
trying to make first off is that everybody
right now, whether you're in the church or
in an organization, most people are asking that
community, let me know when it gets to
the part about me. And some leaders hear
that and they go, well, those entitled little,
you
know, bad. But it's not so much about
entitlement as it is about good business, right,
about bringing the spirit into our wards, bringing
community
into our wards, bringing a place where people
have a friend, Right? Where they're seen, they're
heard, they're understood.
And so I think, you know, just that
simple perspective shift when we realize that, okay,
it's easy to say, like, this is the
gospel. We have the gospel. We have the
eternal salvation, the principles, the ordinances, the keys.
Why wouldn't you come and be a part
of that? But also remembering, okay. Well, I
need to capture your heart. I still need
to make sure you have a friend. I
still need to make sure that the the
soft skills, the intangibles are being focused on.
My family, we got COVID. We had it
for,
we obviously we did this whole ten day
quarantine thing. It killed me. It floored me.
And the thing I remember the most is
not being quarantined, not binging Netflix.
I remember president Budge, my stake president, picking
up the phone. K? Doesn't a phone sound
so 02/2018?
Like, what? A phone? Like, he didn't Zoom
call me. He he didn't text me. He
didn't send me an email
in the on LDS tools. He didn't no.
He called me, and he said, hey. Listen.
I'm not calling to talk about I counsel
stuff. I'm not talking to I I just
wanna know how you're doing. I heard you
and the family are struggling. I know you
had a little baby in the NICU. What
do you need? What do you need? How
can we help you? We are here to
help you. That's the moment I remember. That's
the moment I treasure, and I will not
forget that. And, yeah, he runs really great
meetings. Yes. We have really awesome state conference
get togethers, and, yes, our missionary work is
doing awesome. But I remember when he got
to the part about me. And did that
take him time? Yes. Did it take some
effort out of his workday and the busy
schedule that he already has? Yes.
But it was a moment that I think
I have seen time and time again that
when great leaders do that, when they create
those little moments of connection, the intangibles,
and they get to the part about their
members, it builds a stronger culture. It builds
loyalty. We get to the people, not just
about the gospel. It's the people within the
gospel that I think makes it such a
beautiful thing. Yeah. And and I noticed that
one of the anchoring principles of your book
is this concept of connection. Like, people really
need a connection there, a personal connection, a
real connection. Right? And so, you know, getting
to the part about them, right, or the
person that's that's in your,
ward, quorum, organization, whatever it is, like, that's
I mean, it's easier said than done. Like,
where where would you tell people to start?
Like, leaders, where could they start to really
make it a part make it about them?
Because it goes, no. No. No, Chris. It's
it's about Jesus. Alright? We gotta make it
about Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. I think sometimes, like,
as leaders, we stand in front of a
fireplace and we say, give me heat, then
I'll give you wood. Like, we we kinda
go, well, don't you know that we have
the ordinances and the same principles? Like, why
would you not come? Come to church. That's
so that's so weird. When, again, it's like
giving people a reason to because, yes, it
is a community.
That's like like, I don't know. I I
speak to kids a lot. And sometimes people
think it's weird that, like, I start out
funny or I start out with some humor,
and they're like, well, why don't you just
go in and start talking about the gospel?
It's like, I've gotta open up that window.
I have to give them a reason to
connect with me. Then I can influence. Then
we can talk about Jesus. Then we can
talk about gospel. But, again, it's getting to
the part about them. So I think, obviously,
there's your obvious first answers of, you know,
going to your ward council.
A lot of churches, wards, stakes are doing
surveys right now. They're asking their people, you
know, are you having come follow me at
home? How is your virtual sacrament meetings? You
know, what would you like to see more
from us? Like, those are some very obvious
things. You know, picking up the phone. Right?
In their ward councils, who are the three
people that we're the most worried about? Which
families? And then pick up the phone and
call them. You know? And if if social
distancing right now, I know it's a little
bit of a weird time, but, you know,
maybe it's not just knocking on the door
and say, hey. Can we come in and
talk and see how you're doing? But drop
off some cookies. You know? Write a note.
Those little things, I think, go a long
ways. And, again, we're in a weird time,
so there's only so much that we can
do, but those little efforts matter. Yeah. And
and I love that as you talk about
in the book is, you know, in order
to get to the connection part, you sort
of have to step back and take an
assessment.
You said said in the book, if you
don't know why your people are leaving, you
won't know what you need to change to
entice them to stay to stay. Now, obviously,
you're tying in the context of, like, a
business organization and but there are people that
leave the church and sometimes you think, Like,
I don't get it. Right? You just mentioned,
like, we have all the we got the
keys. We have the restored gospel. I mean,
this is why would they leave? Right? And
so to really understand how to build connection,
you have to step back and ask yourself
some tough questions to assess your organization. You
know, what is it you offer to your
organization? So anything you'd add to that as
far as assessing your organization so you know
where to begin to to develop that connection
or or to work. I think sometimes, like,
as leaders and especially leadership in the church,
it's kinda like the age old adage of,
like, if you feed a man a fish,
then you feed him for a day. Mhmm.
But if you can teach him, if you
teach the man to fish, then you feed
him for a lifetime. Every time I hear
that, I go, who said the guy wanted
a fish?
Who said the guy wanted a fish? Like,
I'm not really a fish guy. I don't
like fish. But the the principle is is,
again, asking people. Right? And, again, in revel
in, like, revelation and church and you you
have the keys and you are being guided.
But, again, remember, we have to get buy
in from the individuals that we're guiding. Yes.
You have revelation, and you have the opportunity
to to be
given that, which is great. But, again, it's
it's helping it's opening up the window for
that to happen.
I had a
a bishop that he just drive missionary work,
you know, and that was a lot of
the stakes agenda. You gotta drive missionary work,
missionary work, missionary work, missionary work. What the
members really wanted was award activity.
They just wanted award activity, and they hadn't
planned an activity forever. And so it it's,
again, it's it's taking a minute to go,
okay. I know there's, like, the vision of
what I want, but also consider what the
people want. And that's where the word councils
come in, where you do more listening than
you do talking.
And I think that pays that pays off.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's this interesting dynamic
in the church, which is incredible and and
a wonderful blessing as that is, you know,
many leaders giving keys or we're functioning under
keys to receive inspiration to know how to
move forward. And sometimes there's that bishop or
someone who says it's missionary work. Like, I'm
going to plant my flag in missionary work,
and that's where I'm taking the ward, you
know, and and you get momentum. You're excited,
but you never ask the ward like, well,
do you want to be a part of
missionary work? So maybe some will think, I
don't necessarily wanna go that direction. Like, I'm
busy with other things that are taking me
a different direction. Right? And so that doesn't
mean you have to not do missionary work,
but you have to reconcile that gap between
where you wanna take the ward and what
they want. Because if you take them somewhere
they don't wanna go, it's gonna be a
long drag,
long haul. Right? There was always clear distinctions
between
leadership, like traditional leadership versus mentorship.
Mhmm. So for example, like when an employee
hated their job, they talked about the manager.
But when an employee loved their job, they
talked about the mentor. And the same thing,
I think, happens in the church. Like, I
look back at some of the most influential
leaders in my life, relief society presidents, bishops,
mission presidents, stake presidents, even elders quorum teachers,
primary teachers. Like, people that really made a
difference in my life, they were really mentors
more than they were leaders. And sometimes that
traditional leadership view of you plant the flag.
Right? You are the leader. What's the vision?
Where are you going to take the ship?
Where mentorship is about
what are you doing for the people on
the ship? How are you taking care of
the people on the ship? How are you
getting to the part about them? How are
you connecting individuals to the savior, not just
the ward as a whole? And so it
was really beautiful to see
when people would talk about that because nobody
really talked about the leader. I love our
I mean, our CEO's vision for the year
is amazing. That's why I said
nobody said that. Nobody
said that. What they talked about is the
time when the manager, you know, sent flowers
to their wife when they were sick. What
they talked about was when that was the
manager sat down and said, hey. Where do
you wanna go? And how can I get
help you get there? I appreciate what you're
doing. Let's give you a little bit of
a raise. Let's help you get where you
wanna go. So our manager took time to
connect. Right? The phone calls, the little things.
And, again, we sometimes write it off because
it's a soft skill or it's an intangible.
But to your people,
that is the thing that they remember. That
is the thing that they talk about. Yeah.
You know, there's sort of this, like, push
and pull dynamic where you sort of have
to walk into their worlds
so that you can get them to walk
into your vision. Right? Like, if you don't
truly understand them because it's not like you
know, I sort of give the example earlier.
I don't think people are sitting at home
like, I don't like I'm not doing missionary
work. It's not my thing or whatever. But
it's more of like, you know what? That's
great that that leader has that vision and
wants to take the word in that direction
or the core, but he's not once tried
to come and engage with me or try
and understand my wants and needs.
And even if and once that leader does
that, then
they they'll march into any any war with
them. Right? Like, they've won them over. They
see the trust. They're like, great. You know
me. You see me. You understand me. Let's
go. Yeah. There's four types of bishops. And
and we even saw, you know, four types
of leaders, four types of managers, whatever you
wanna call them. Four types of elders, quorum
president, relief society president. You have you have
the bishop that's that's removed, or you have
the relief society president that's removed. She's been
in the calling for two years, and she's
just done.
No one likes standards, like, ministering, like, does
not report the numbers. Just it it's she's
busy raising seven children at home. Like, she's
just not doing that. Right? And then on
the connection side, she has no time, and
so she's just she's removed. And then second,
you find,
you know, the buddy. You have the the,
you know, the really good bishops that are
really good at being friends with people, but
then the ad the admin side of the
church is a mess. You know, the standards,
the development, growing people, you know, even holding
people accountable to some part. Yeah. Elder storm's
drowning because the bishop's not helping to crack
the whip to help people get where they
need to be or do what they need
to do or whatever. Like, they're low on
standards. So that creates a little sense of
entitlement. That's where you have, like, the relief
society president is more of the bishop than
the bishop is, or you have the the
young women's president that is is running the
show more than anybody else because I I
don't know. It's that you're low on standards,
high on connections, so there's a little sense
of entitlement that cap that comes with that.
And then third So this is like the
the the quadrant you're explaining. Right? Yeah. Totally.
On one side, there's it's high standards,
high accountability, and on the other side, it's
high love. Right? Yeah. High Or low love.
Empathy. Yeah. Yeah. Getting part about the people.
And then you the third one is the
controller.
Like, they're all about the gospel, the doctrine.
I'm not here to be your friend. Like,
this is the way Jesus wants you to
live. So do that. Be perfect. Right? It's
all about development. It's it's like obedience, 100%
obedience. We are exactly obedient. Right? There's no
leeway.
There's no, there's no real room for connection.
So then that creates rebellion. Right? We're throwing
the book at people instead of remembering that
they're people. How do we get to their
heart? And then four, it was that mentor
manager, that mentor relief society president, that mentor
bishop. They were high on standards, but they
were equally high on connection.
And that created respect. That was the beautiful
formula
that really created the opportunity
to be influential
in people's lives. Yeah. And so it's really
that balance of because especially in the church,
we're in a volunteer organization. And so it's
like, I don't want to push people too
hard. They're just volunteering and they've got other
they got families, they got jobs. And so
I'm going to just hold back. And then
you sort of turn into that leader who's
like really nice and like but can't hold
anybody accountable because he feels like he'll lose
them if they hold them if they get
held accountable. And so it's That's right. It's
a lot of love, but it's like, oh,
you didn't do that for the fourth time
I asked you. Okay. Hey. No problem. You
know? Let's give it another go this week.
Right? Yes. And nothing ever happens. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. But and you remember. Right? You can
look back in your your church life. You
remember the really awesome bishops. You remember the
great Relief Society presidents,
the great my my man, the young men's
leaders that I had where, you know, if
I was later, I wasn't getting somewhere or
I need like, they would crack the whip
on me. They'd be like, come on, Pulver.
What's your deal?
Also loved me.
Make sure that I would I don't know.
It was just Like, because you can't go
there unless you've established that foundation. Exactly. Because
if you do, then they'll they'll just rebel.
Right? You have to build relationships so strong
that honesty can exist, but you have to
make those deposits of trust. Right? And that
allows you to withdraw more. But it's like
the bank account principle and Yeah. Yeah. And
that Yeah. Withdrawals and
deposits. Right? Yeah. Always happen in in relationships.
So here here's what I'm I'm picking up
as we go through this because I wanna
make sure people sometimes we throw these principles
around. They sort of get lost in the
principles and they're like, okay. But what does
that what does that mean to me today?
If, you know, from what I learned from
the book, like, the first place I would
start is just that, okay. I'm I need
an assessment of some type. It it doesn't
necessarily have to be a survey. Maybe it
is a survey. Maybe I just we just
get our ward council together and say, okay.
What are you seeing? Like, let's really dig
in here. Let's analyze everything. Our Zoom SACRA
meetings, like, give me your worst. Like, what's
working, what's not. Right? You're just sort of
unpacking everything, assessing everything Brain dump. And and
really, really looking at it. Yes. And then,
again, not that these are in any order,
but then as a leader focusing on that
mentorship
dynamic of saying, okay. Am I just sort
of driving the admin train? Is there more
I could do to connect? You know, the
ministering interviews, how are those going? That's an
opportunity to maybe a mentorship there. How can
I build this foundation of love in order
for them then I can be help hold
people more accountable type thing? So the assessing
part, the mentorship part, and we'll move on
to where would you want where would you
say we should go next as far as,
building these building blocks there? Yeah. I think
one thing to consider, I think that's really
helpful is to you know, do you have
the right people in the right places? You
know? Do you have a young men's president
that's that removed young men's president that you
haven't had a young men's
get together a a meeting for the last
four months?
Like, who do we need to coach out?
Right? Maybe there's a time for a change.
You know, great leaders, they were really good
at putting the right people, right, in the
right positions. But, you know, do and then
do you have someone maybe do you have
a a relief society president or elders quorum?
Then they're the controller, and they are just
driving
people away.
So I think it's it's not so much,
again,
yes, your leadership, your influence, your connection one
on one, but also it's an organization.
So do you have the right people in
the right places?
And this gets really tricky in in in
our tradition because it's like you the the
bench is only so long. You know, the
the neighborhood is only so big or Yeah.
Or the ward is so so big. So
you can't recruit outside the ward. It's like,
well, this is who I got. And and
then there's the
dynamic on top of that of saying, well,
you know, Clint, listen. These are we prayed
about these callings. And though that release study
president is sort of driving people with, you
know, sort of
a a heavy hand, like, that's who's supposed
to be in there. So there's nothing I
can do. Yeah. And I think, again, it's
gonna be it's gonna be it's gonna depend
on the situation. Right? Yeah. And revelation changes.
Situations change. People change. And so I think
it's not you know, obviously, constantly taking it
to the lord, and you're looking at at
what's going on. What are the results?
Because leadership still does matter. So be open
to it. Pray about it. Think, ask. Oh,
this do I need to make a change
here? Yeah. There's one quote I'm looking for
here.
Yeah. So this quote here, finding out what
a potential employee wants to achieve is an
important part of determining whether they're a good
fit for their job. Yeah. And I appreciate
that, you know, in the context of the
church of saying, like, you know, sometimes
we step into a calling simply because we've
been called, but nobody really asked us, do
you want to be here? Do you want
to do it? And I've one controversial
approach I've suggested with callings is sometimes
the traditional ways, you know, you ask somebody
to come in, they come sit in the
the Bishop's office and then the calling is
extended and and this is the first time
they've heard about it and then you're looking
for a yes or no, or mainly you're
just looking for a yes because Yeah. You
know, this isn't we prayed about this and
so you should say yes. But Yep. If
I was to do it again, I would
probably
first call people and say, hey. Listen, brother
Jones.
We we met as a bishopric. And,
we are
we're looking for a new Sunday school teacher,
and we feel like you've been a good
fit for a variety of reasons. We feel
good about it. We've prayed about it. But
would you take the weekend and just ponder
over that? Sit with that for a minute.
Maybe go to the temple, you know, when
when we did that. You know, whatever it
is. Yeah. And then let's meet next Sunday
and just see where we go from here
to see if this is something you really
want to do. Because I may feel inspired
to to go this direction, but if you
don't wanna do it, I think that says
something that that would be worth talking about.
Right? Great opportunity right there to also talk
about the expectations of the calling.
You know? Like, with the relief society present,
there's gonna be a few things that, as
the bishop, I'm gonna expect you to do,
like, that we really are looking for. As
a as a stake, we're gonna really need
you to emphasize this. It's gonna take a
little bit of time. It's gonna take a
little bit more effort. You're gonna have to
work with with with your counselors. You're gonna
have to call two more counselors because we
just released them. Like, giving them a little
taste of what you're wanting. It's you're not
just looking for the yes. You're looking for
a commitment. You're looking for some buy in
there. And be real. Be be real. And
if they say no, then maybe in the
long run, that's that's some some prayers answered.
Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think giving,
like, people that that invitation of saying, where
do you want to be in this organization?
Like, do you love the primary? Do you
love the the youth? And and again, not
that they get to pick their calling, but
it's that's really helpful information for, like, a
bishopric or stake presidency to to consider is,
like, okay. He actually wants could could we
find a place for him in the in
the young men's organization? Because that's something that
there's a passion there, and we could really
use that passion in that organization. And that's
gonna solve so many problems in the future
rather than just saying, well, I feel good
about this name. Let's put him in there.
And then you wonder why he he flakes
out or doesn't show up because he never
wanted to be in there in the first
place. He's just trying to be obedient. Right?
Yeah. And and too, I think that it's
worth saying, like, you know, take inventory of
your current leadership or where people are at
in their callings. And if you got that
couple that's been in the nursery for four
years,
like, because you know, maybe they love it.
Right? Maybe they're just having the time of
their lives,
but maybe they might be open to a
change.
I I think sometimes you get a good
person and a good calling and they're just
killing it, it is easy to keep them
there for the next decade.
But, also, you know, like, be willing to
change it up. It's okay. Change it up.
Yeah. And, again, it goes then you talk
we'll maybe jump into this here in a
second with the, with the status interviews. But
I remember as a bishop, you know, I
was in Inner City Ward. We had four
four senior couples assigned to my ward to
help me with all things temporal
or welfare issues. And I would meet with
them on each couple on a monthly basis.
And the first question I'd always start with
is, are you still enjoying your mission? Because
if they're not enjoying it, like, nothing else
matters in this interview Yes. Or this this
interaction. We have to figure out what you
don't enjoy and see if there's a way
around that or and, you know, maybe and
I never got to this point with these
missionaries, but maybe it gets to a point,
maybe in a calling or you have an
elders' corps president or a youth leader who's
just like, I just I just don't feel
a good fit. You get to a point.
You try different things to say, you know
what? Why don't we find a different place
in the world where you're gonna really enjoy
that or maybe you need a break or
whatever it is. Right? And, again, create an
honest like, an environment where that honesty can
exist because
there's guilt in this church. I don't care
who you are. Anything that deals with Christianity
and striving to be good and and follow
Jesus, you're gonna feel a sense of guilt.
You're gonna feel like you're not always doing
your best. And so, you know, to ask
somebody, you know, are you do you still
enjoy loving your mission? A lot of people
are gonna be like, well, absolutely. I'm serving
the lord. Like, they're gonna give you the
even though they're dying inside. Right? And I
I think, you know, there is a sense
of creating an environment where you're like, hey.
Listen. I just I don't want you to
feel guilty. I don't want you to feel
like you need to give me some canned
answer,
and just create an environment where honesty can
exist. I just I really want to know
because I really want to help you. K?
This is not gonna you're not gonna lose
celestial points for telling me something that's not
a 100%, you know, the perfect answer. I'm
literally just wanting to know your honest truth
on where you're at and what you're feeling.
And I just I just need to know
so I can help you. Right? Like, that
little chain, I I think you would maybe
get a little bit more of an honest
answer that's gonna help you get better results.
Okay. So let's go back to,
talking about sort of these,
you you call them in the book, these
these status interviews, if I if I'm Yeah.
Yeah. Status interviews. Yep. And this there's a
lot of parallels here to ministering interviews, but
I also just remember the power of, you
know, like I mentioned with that those missionary
couples. Like, it didn't matter what was happening,
what they were dealing with, if they're busy
or not. Like, we met once a month.
And there's just this power of a regular
meeting of just sitting down. And a lot
of times, we'd both walk into those meetings
thinking,
I can't think of one thing that we're
gonna actually talk about. Like, nothing's on the
top of my mind. But then we walk
out thirty minutes later, and we talk the
whole time, you know, because there was always
something that came up or concern or something.
And so just this habit of or the
routine of of meeting with people and saying,
okay. How's it going? And then, no. Really,
how like, how's it really going? Are you
enjoying this digging in a little bit? And
that's part of the assessment process, I would
imagine. Yeah. It'll be a lot of information
out of it. And it supports why why
we do ministering.
It's to check-in. It's to
make sure that we have a pulse on
the organization and the people within the organization.
The reason I call it a status interview
is I so I came from the medical
field.
A lot of my background after graduating college,
I was in the OR, and all of
the the the doctors, everyone referred to status.
Right? What's the status of the patient? Give
me a status update. And what they're referring
to is the heart rate, the respiratory rate,
the block the body temperature, and the blood
pressure of the patient because those vitals determine
how they're going to treat a patient.
So in in this context,
you would treat that patient, and then you
recheck the vitals.
And then you treat the patient, and you
recheck the vitals until we gain a healthy
status.
And so the same thing I think in
in wards and in church leadership, in our
stakes, in our communities,
we should conduct those status interviews.
And there was kind of this this overarching
theme of three questions that a leader would
ask in some way, shape, or form to
conduct this, and it helped them to get
a status check. And it wasn't a performance
review.
K? This is not a time where you
call in your Relief Society president or your
OzCorps president and you go over the numbers,
or you talk about the next activity coming
up,
or or you're not even really talking about
individuals
in the ward. This is a chance for
you to check-in on them as a person.
And the questions we we we we saw
is, number one, is what can we do
to keep you here?
What can we do to keep you more
engaged? What can I do to keep you
doing the good work that you're doing? I
just wanna know what I can do to
keep you here.
Number two, so what's getting in the way
of of your success?
Like, what is it? Is it because,
you know, you've got a counselor that's just
dragging everything down? Is it is it because,
you know, our our system that we're using
is is so old, we need to update
a few things? Is it Long meetings. Long
meetings, Glenn. Yeah. Do we need to announce
that we need to do more online tithing
because you're staying for two hours doing the
the old little fashioned like, what can I
do? What's getting in your way? And then
and then the third question is what can
I do to help you get there?
So what can I do to keep you
moving, going, engaged?
Second, what's getting in the way? And then
third, what can I do as your leader
to help you get there?
Those three things, I think, opens up a
window for you to gain some insight as
a leader to help your people to become
more
connected.
Yeah. And what a great what a great
model for a a ministry interview because, you
know, elders quorum presidents, really study presences, they
know they're supposed to do these interviews, but
sometimes
it's like, okay. There's a lot of interviews
to get through and, they, you know, they
walk in like, oh, brother Polover. Glad you're
here. Have a seat. So how are your
families doing? Right? We just sort of run
into the, like, well, how are your families
doing? But to see it more as of
not so much about the families, we'll get
to the families,
and and we'll make sure we discuss that.
But this is a status interview. Like, how
are you? You know? Like, what's your experience
in the quorum? What's getting in your way
of really
getting excited to come to the elders quorum?
You know? Whatever it is. But connecting with
that person because that's when the mentorship
is,
is possible. Right? Is in that ministering interview.
Right? It allows you to advocate for people.
K? Not just develop them through the gospel
of Jesus Christ, but to advocate for them.
Right? I think that's the whole role of
the savior. He was an advocate. He is
our advocate.
And and so you get to you get
to be that person. And I think too,
this is important with the status interview. It
needs to always start with vocal praise.
Like, you you go to your relief society
president, the elders quorum president, or whoever within
your leadership and you say, hey. I I
need to talk to you. I need to
have a meeting. So let's get it scheduled.
You know, reach out to, you know, the
secretary. Let's let's get an appointment.
Their mind is gonna be racing. They're gonna
be like, oh, geez. What? Gosh. Bishop wants
to meet with me. Why? Or stake president
wants to meet with me. I think when
you start with, hey. Listen. I just wanna
check-in and make sure you're doing
or that you're doing okay, and I'm doing
everything to help you. So I'd love to
just set up a meeting on how I
can do that better. And that's a little
different approach. And then when you sit in
that meeting,
start with vocal praise.
Start by telling them, listen. Everything you're doing,
how you have helped individuals,
everything, you know, the attendance on with our
sisters and ministering has grown because of what
you're doing. Right? If you have really great
people in your callings, in your ward, start
with vocal praise. And then, again, you're then
leaning over how do I keep you here?
I wanna keep you in this calling because
you're doing so great. What can I do
to support you? Yeah. When you do that
and you open it with that type of
communication, you're gonna get some really great feedback
on how to be better for your people.
Yeah. Because you're just creating so much safety
in that interaction. Yeah. Right? It's like nobody's
in trouble here. Like, I would just wanna
get to know you. Like, I am on
a a detective mission here to better understand
you and and what's going on from from
your side of of your eyeballs. Right? And
I love this. To me, this this tip
was worth the the price of the book
right here, Clint, is that you say that
as you're in these interactions, repeat what the
employee or what the individual is saying, you
know, as they're saying it. Yeah. Because then
that really
they feel heard. Right? They feel like, oh,
he repeated back what I said in a
way that or they say, no. No. No.
No. That's not what that's not what I
said. Let me let me clarify. Right? Yeah.
And and yeah. And it's not just about
talking. Right? It's not just about checking off
the box that you had a status interview.
It's about understanding. It's about communication, good communication.
And then you've got to actually follow-up
on what you said you would jump in
and block and help with and advocate for
because then that that kills the whole, you
know, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He loves to have
the status interview. He loves to talk to
us about all the things we need, but
nothing ever happens. Yeah. Or he's always just
coming down on me. You know? Like, we
meet every month, and I have to tell
him every time, no. I haven't done my
ministering visits. You know? Like, how you're back
again. Like, no. Like, you're and then they
just avoid you. Yep. Right? Yep. They disengage.
So And and too and then what you
create from that is, you know, on the
business side, we would call it a growth
development plan.
There's something to work towards.
And, you know, there's a lot of meetings
where you're like, ah, jeez. I have no
idea what we're gonna talk about in the
meeting. You know? Ah, jeez. We're having another
word council. What do we you know, we
just go through the same line items. We
have the same agenda. How's the relief society?
Elder's quorum, anything to share? How's this yeah.
It's it's just
instead where you could really look at those
status interviews, what you gained from that, and
then create a growth development plan with that
person in their calling on how to help
them succeed in the things that they're needing.
It's just a great format to keep it
rolling, to keep it effective, not just having
a meeting to have a meeting. Yep. Anything
else as far as status interviews or those
interactions that,
you'd wanna add before we we move on?
You know, and it doesn't have to just
be the bishop. Right? It doesn't have to
just be the relief society president, you know,
and invoke the help of other people.
I do. I sometimes get caught in this
as as I can bury a leader in
the things that I say. And that leader
is like, oh my gosh. I'm having a
hard time just showing up,
and now you're wanting me to do all
of these interviews. And I don't know.
And when you listen to this podcast, you
read a leadership book. I'm a big fan
of keep it simple. You know? Choose one
thing or lean on another person. Ask someone
to help you out. You know? Status interviews,
is that something you could do? Is that
something that resonates
within something that could help the organization? Well,
then maybe put the first counselor
overdoing that. You know, be willing to delegate
some of the response, not just all on
you.
Yeah. Take a breath. One thing. Choose one
thing. Yeah. And little by little, a little
becomes a lot. Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned
that because that's, my constant fear with some
of these interviews. Like, hey. We're just exploring
this concept. Like, you just let it wash
over you, and then maybe get the book
if it incur if if it's something you
wanna dive into, and then go sit with
it and say, I like that one principle,
and I'll try that. But, the rest of
the stuff, I'm not gonna worry about right
now. And that's okay. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Consistency
in one thing is a lot better than
inconsistency in 400 things you're trying to do.
Yeah. True that.
Alright. What, this concept you talked about, the
importance of everyone knowing the organization's core values
that again, it seems like this is further
down the road. Like, once you've sort of
established
that connection, that mentorship,
that the community, the the positive culture, then
you bring in the core values that can
sort of ignite
the momentum to to move forward with with
things. But, I mean, how would you introduce
this as far as what you found with
effectiveness of core values of organizations? Yeah. And
you usually find this a lot on the
stake level where the stake has a vision
for the stake. Like, this is our overarching
theme. These are our our goals and where
we wanna go. I think on a word
level, though, there's there's power in supporting that
stake level and creating a vision that is
simple, but it's also memorable.
We talk about it at the at first
of the year, here's our new goal or
here's our new vision. But if I were
to go into your stake and ask the
members of of the ward or the stake
on the stake level and say, what's the
goal? What's the mission statement of the stake?
Do I guarantee you 95%
of those members are gonna be like, I
don't know. Duh. Keep the commandments. Uh-huh. Duh.
Do come follow me. Yeah. Right? Like, most
people don't know because the the mission statements
are 52 pages long or it's, you know,
full of 30 scriptures and quotes and what
Alma said and why Moses
emphasized this.
And, again, retention. Retention. Retention. How can we
help people retain and keep the main thing
the main thing? And so, again, keep it
simple. One thing. What's one thing? And then
for the next month in sacrament meeting, make
the talks themed around that. And then as
the bishop, right, you get up and you
talk about it and you say, hey. Remember,
brothers and sisters, our focus
is on individuals
in our war. That's what we're focusing on.
And so today, we're gonna talk about the
parable of the one. Because remember, that's our
focus as a war. That is what we
were striving to do together.
You've done your part. You've researched. You talked
to the word council. You listened to the
needs, what everybody's wanting. Where can we take
the ship? Right? So then how do we
keep it simple and memorable
where it's actually retained to where if you
could go in your ward and say, hey.
What's our focus as a ward family?
We focus on people here in this ward.
That's Yeah. And I know, you know, it's
one of those things that as a bishop
who's newly called, like, that that thing doesn't
have to last through all five years of
your your service. It could be for the
next nine months, we're gonna focus on people
and, you know, then we're gonna move on
to something else or, you know, it's always
changing. But revelation and keys and all that
happens. And if you're you're prompted or guided
to do another direction, then great.
Yeah. Yeah. It's great.
And then some reflective questions in here that
just thought I thought they're so helpful because
one of the biggest
the biggest hurdles in leadership, I feel like,
is self awareness
and just being like, because you can go,
you can lead, you can do go through
the motions, you can do your thing and
you feel like,
pretty good leader. I mean, things like people
are enjoying being here and this is great.
I'll just keep doing more of what I'm
doing. And then on the other side, people
are thinking, like, this is kinda frustrating. I'm
he confuses me a lot or you know?
And so these questions you put in the
book, when I come into work or when
I come to church,
how do my ward members experience
me? How do they experience themselves
when they are with me? And that's like,
man, any leader can just sit with those
questions and invite revelation because
there's a lot that can come from that.
Yeah. I it's easy. Like, in in management,
in the workplace, it's really sad because a
lot of managers will do one on one
meetings, and they sit in front of an
employee, and they say, you know, what can
I do better for you as a manager?
And what the employee says is, you know,
no. Man, it's cool, dude. You're doing great,
and we're doing awesome. And, yeah, man, it's
chill.
What you're actually thinking in their mind is
you constantly micromanage me. You undervalue me. Every
time there's a win on the team, you
take the credit. Every time there's a loss,
you blame us. And I'm honestly looking for
another job. That's what they're really wanting to
say. And, again, sometimes it's more extreme than
others, but we don't create this an environment
where we can get regular feedback.
And one of the great things that I
found that leaders did is they first off
admitted that they are not perfect.
They admitted that they're going to make mistakes,
but they also created an environment where they
were welcome to feedback.
Again, they're building relationships where there's trust. And
then they say, listen. I need to know
what I can do better. I'm not here
for fluff. I'm not here for you to
also rag on me, but what can I
do to get better? What can I do
to really help you? And it's hard because
there's not a lot of incentive there for
people to
be honest all the time. But I think,
again, as a leader, if you can be
open to that and you're regularly asking for
that, you don't wanna decrease your confidence and
your influence. Right? You are still the leader.
You have keys. You have the authority. You
have the revelation that is given to you.
That's important.
But, also, I think it dehumanizes
somewhat of the ego that comes with leadership
or this sense of, like, I'm killing it.
I'm doing great. This is what we're doing,
and it's working. My whole business, my whole
industry, what I do for a living
is based off of this principle
where a leader has this perception, but the
reality of the ward members are completely different.
And it's be most of the time, a
lot because they're just not open to feedback.
A lot of good leaders, they know what
they need to do, but they don't know
what they need to stop doing. I think
if we can open up that window where
that conversation can happen,
it allows you to be better. And so
you're saying that you learn about those things
you can stop doing by having some of
these
these more open real conversations. Yeah. And keeping
the schedule more simple. Right? Like, we're really
good as leaders at creating the to do
list. Start making a to don't list. Try
stop you know, how do we cut our
meetings in half? Are we having this meeting
just because I'm supposed to have this meeting
or I'm just checking off the box, or
is it really because it needs to happen?
Can this be sent through email? Can I
do this through Slack? Can I send this
as a text? Do I really need to
get
12 people together to talk about this? Simplify
it. Give yourself the freedom and the time.
How do you expect
to connect with people when you are trying
to boil the ocean as a leader? You
can't. You can't. Yeah. The board members spell
production and mentorship,
t I m e. Right? They can't spell
that well, but that's how they spell it.
And if we're so busy, how do we
give time?
Yeah. I love that. And one one example
as far as the to don't list is
and it's interesting how you, like if you
frame it right, like, people have a hard
time
arguing with that boundary you've created. So, for
example, being a bishop in the inner city
ward,
when somebody had a, welfare request,
you know, maybe in a more traditional ward,
they would just set an appointment with a
bishop. They'd have a conversation about, hey. I
need help with rent or whatever. But I
had so many welfare requests that if I
did that, it would consume my whole time.
Right? And so
my executive secretary, when someone would call to
set an appointment with me, he would ask
them, is this about anything related to, finances
or welfare? And if they said yes, he's
like, oh, well, great. I'm glad you mentioned
that because you actually need to meet with
one of our service missionaries
for for them to do an assessment. Because
if you met with bishop Franken, there's really
nothing he could do at this point. And
so you'll just have to meet with with
them. So that was my you know, like,
I don't meet with people about welfare. Yep.
Like, I've that's what the service missionaries do
or the welfare specialist or whomever you wanna
call. And it was like this rule, like,
oh, that just doesn't happen. It's not like
the bishop doesn't wanna meet with you. That's
just not how this system goes. And they're
like, oh, okay. Well, then give me their
phone number. I'll call them back. You created
boundaries. Yeah. Good leaders know what they need
to do. Great leaders know what they need
to stop.
Yep. Awesome. Abdul, just throw in a caveat
here. You do you have a great story
about Rob Ferrell, who is the most downloaded
episode in the history of Leading Saints. He's
a mutual friend of ours. And, anyway, shout
out for Rob Ferrell. The story itself about
The story. Is Daniel Ambers is
it's no surprise he was a very similar
stake president. So that there's your teaser there
for the the Rob Ferrell story. There's this
concept I wanna talk about that
the leader who maybe you can tell the
story. The leader who sort of came to
our people and said, we've gotta raise this
much money and this much time. Do you
remember that story? Yeah. Yeah. And they were
in a dire situation, and she came to
everybody. And she just said, honestly, hey. Our
company is in a rough spot, and
we need your help. And I don't wanna
lay people off. I don't want this to
get crazy, but I I just I need
to be real with you, and this is
the situation.
And that kind of honesty, that vulnerability created
a sense of ownership in helping people rally
together to solve the problem. And she kinda
put this call center together, and they were
calling out clients that owed them money. And
that was the issue within the company. And
they made it a game. They kinda gamified
the whole process.
And all of a sudden, all of the
employees who were marketers or in sales or
in advertising or HR were rallying together
to solve a problem. And everybody would ping
a bell when they would they would get
a sale or someone would commit to making
a payment. And it was just cool to
see how that leader created a sense of
ownership
where it's not just always about the leader
standing in front and and leading, but it's,
again, invoking
others to contribute to the cause in a
way where they get to drive the car
a little bit. You know, I share the
story in the book about my dad who,
on the way from church, home from church,
he would let me sit in the seat
and drive,
and he gave me a sense of ownership.
Yes. I didn't have total complete control of
the car.
But for that moment, I I saw it
differently.
I looked at the process, the experience through
different eyes
because I was holding this to you well.
This is such an important concept that can
easily be missed in our in our faith
tradition because
and sometimes we assume that as leaders, our
role is to we've been ordained with ins
with authority
to receive inspiration that will give us answers
of how to move forward. But oftentimes, in
all my leadership experience,
I have found that that authority often gives
you inspiration
to articulate what the problem is. Yeah. And
then once you figure out what the problem
is, you take it to your people and
say, here's the problem. Yes. Anybody got any
ideas? Right? And I saw this in in
motions. It was one of the biggest blessings
of my time as a bishop when the
thing that kept me up at night was
that we have you know, we're in a
transient area. We have all these people, all
these families on the roles, and we don't
even know who they are. Are they there?
Have they moved?
And so I brought that to the ward,
and we began to work together
and talk about unity. I mean, it just
brought everybody together. We got the we figured
it out and moved on, but it was
such a sanctifying
process. And I talked to so many people,
and it breaks my heart where they're, you
know, they're not aspiring for a leadership role.
And in fact, they don't necessarily have time
for it, but they feel like, you know
I've talked to people saying, I haven't sat
on the word council in fifteen years, and
I feel like my perspective and opinion
doesn't even get asked around here. You know?
Like, at least in those meetings, people can
raise their hand, bring up concerns. But me,
I just have to show up and go
with whatever the word council has decided. So
when you create this this culture
where somehow
people can give their input and say, this
is what I'm seeing. And and I don't
even have a have a calling, but I
want this word to succeed, and and I
wanna be I wanna be a part of
it. I wanna be part of the solution.
Yes. But I don't wanna wait around for
a specific calling to do that. Just let's
work together in it. Yeah. And you widen
your perspective as a leader. I think in
the church, sometimes we think revelation is just
between you and god. You and god. But
I do maybe this call this false doctrine
or whatever you wanna call it, but I
believe this in my life, and I have
seen this in my life. And I received
revelation
from other people. You know? In our research,
we found that great that people in the
workplace found purpose
in their job. The number one contributing factor
on how they found that was through the
association
and connection with other purposeful people.
Example, I've learned to be a better leader
through my association with Rob Ferrell.
Hands
down. He has guided me and directed me
and helped me to become a better leader
for my people through his guidance.
Now is that direct revelation from God?
Maybe not direct revelation between me and God.
However, I do believe that God works through
other people to help guide you. Right? We
know that. That is a principle in the
gospel that there's physical and spiritual angels, and
some of those angels are physical, and they
guide you to see differently. And I think
when we remember that we can receive revelation
and inspiration from others,
it widens our perspective
and our influence as a leader. Yeah. So
powerful. Awesome.
Some of the quotes, I I'll just rattle
these off here and people can, take it
for what it is. I don't know if
I mentioned this one. Don't we all want
to feel valued in a place where we
spend so much of our time? You know,
obviously, in the workplace, that's huge, but don't
we all want to feel valued in our
board? Like, into the place where we go
and try and commune with the divine? Like,
we want to feel valued there. I love
that. Finding out that what a potential employee
wants to achieve is an important part of
determining whether they're a good fit for the
job. I think we talked about that. This
one quote
I should have read earlier, but one of
the root causes of turnover today is that
younger workers aren't afraid to leave. For them,
a job has to be fair, a win
win situation,
or there's no deal. They will get up
and walk away. And,
man, there's a lot there that relates to
the the younger generation with church. Like, if
there's not some some values there, some of
their core values they're seeing, like, they'll never
get to the core doctrines that can bless
their lives so much. Right? Yeah. It's important
to ask yourself, you know, what does our
award what do we as a church what
do we offer that Google can't?
Yeah. What do you offer that Google can't?
Things like spiritual experiences,
things like connection, real connection, things like moments.
The number one thing still to this day
that youth ask or that they wish they
had more of in the church of Jesus
Christ of Latter day Saints is that not
everyone, but but the common trend is I
wish I felt the spirit more. Wish I
felt the spirit more. Google can't provide that.
TikTok cannot provide that. Facebook cannot provide that.
Spirit is the only thing that can provide
that. And, Yeah. Yeah. I think it's it's
worth considering. It's worth
this quote that I had to set the
book down and and take a breather here.
But what will happen if you don't invest
in your people? They'll leave anyway
or worse,
they'll mentally quit and stay. Oh my god.
Yeah. Like, that's like Man, what what could
be worse than than leaving than them just
disengaging mentally, than just showing up to church
and saying I'm here, wins it over. Right?
I mean, that is just cancer for an
organization, and it's not the individual's
problem. At least it's not all their problem.
It start it can goes back to leadership
to say, what can we do differently so
that they don't mentally quit? And then this
great one, we'll we'll wrap it up with
with this one. It's not about getting your
employees to to say, I love it here.
It's also about getting them to say, I
love who I am while I'm here. And,
man, isn't that the dream of every leader
in the church? Like, we're glad you're here,
but more more importantly,
when you come to church,
like, you feel like you're becoming something great,
like, becoming more like the divine. And, man,
that is that's the gospel for me. That's
why I'm still engaged and on this journey
is who I'm becoming. And that is, like,
the most beautiful part of all of this.
I think we can look at a calling
sometimes in leadership and see all the meetings,
all of the phone calls, all of the
follow-up, all of the admin.
But I also I mean, man, there is
a beautiful side to this that is remarkable,
and and it's the leaders that made those
types of differences. They understood that. They understood
that role in the lives that they played
in other people. I had a a bishop
who's most instrumental person in my life, and
I asked him, I said, what was your
favorite part of being a bishop? And he
said it was always the best when the
light bulb would turn on. He's like, when
I was able to connect and to love
somebody
and that light bulb turned on and they
realized
that the savior loved them too.
So that is why I'm a bishop. That
is why I love church leadership.
And, yeah, he still had to do the
meetings. Yes. There was still the admin,
but, also, there was the opportunity to turn
the light bulb on where somebody liked themselves
best because they associated with you. And through
that association,
they came closer to Christ. There's no greater
calling. There's no greater privilege
in my mind than to connect somebody with
Christ. And when you do that, you become
connected to Christ as well. And that is
the beauty of
your role as a leader in this gospel.
Love it. Alright, Clint. I got one more
question for you. But before we do that,
if people wanna connect with you, I know
you do a lot of corporate speaking, maybe
do you do firesides? Where can they get
the book? Obviously, not that you do a
fireside on the book. I don't maybe you
got one. I don't know. But, maybe just
give us your rundown of where people connect
to you and how how you can serve
them. Yeah. They can find out more at
clintpulver.com.
It's the website. And then I'm on Instagram,
Clint Pulver on Instagram, and the book is
on Amazon,
Barnes and Noble. Just type in I love
it here or Clint Pulver. Cool. Well, I
confidently give it my endorsement to whatever that
means. This would be a great book. I
mean, you want just sort of a fun
little book club with your word council or
some of your leaders, like,
take one one chapter at a time and
and talk about it. And there's some principles
here that could really help you,
self assess and say, you know, what are
we missing here? What how do people interact
with us as as a leader? So
fantastic book. So my last question for you,
Clint, is as you've gone through this research,
as you've written, you know, this leadership book,
how has writing this leadership book helped you
become a better follower of Jesus Christ? I
think it's allowed me to see the perspective
into what really matters to people. And I
look at my life as a member of
the the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
day Saints and some of the greatest influences
in the times
that I have felt the spirit the most
is when great leaders got to the part
about me. You know, it wasn't so much
about ticking off the box or making sure
that I was worthy or I was doing
everything that I I needed to do to
be perfect.
It was, are you taken care of as
a person?
And I value you as a person, and
so does Christ.
And when I saw them
get to the part about me, it allowed
me to realize
that Christ
was also getting to the part about me.
Everything that Christ does is for us. It's
about getting to the part about us and
how we can become something more through him.
That's what I've learned, and,
it's been a beautiful experience.
That concludes my interview with Clint Pulver. Big
shout out to him for allowing me to
throw some questions at him. His book is
great. I hope you come across. I I
don't mean to hype it up too much,
but it really is just a solid book
that would be so helpful for any leader
out there even if you're just a parent.
You know, don't you want your kids to
say, I love it here when they're at
home. There's some principles there that can even
help in in a home. So check it
out, really well done. I would love to
hear of any other book you're reading that
the author I could reach out to and
maybe do an interview. They don't even have
to be a Latter day Saint. You know,
I've interviewed a lot of authors who are
have researched or thought about different principles that
apply to our, leadership experience. So go to
leadingsaints.org/contact
and let us know who we should be
reaching out to to include on this, this
podcast. We'd love to hear it. And that
concludes this throwback episode of the Leading Saints
podcast.
Remember, the Jody Moore presentation about youth and
mental health is waiting for you at leadingsaints.org/fourteen.
It came as a result of the position
of leadership which was imposed upon us
by the god of heaven who brought forth
a restoration
of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
And when the declaration was made
concerning the own and only true and living
church upon the face of the earth,
we were immediately put in a position of
loneliness.
The loneliness of leadership
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,
and to which we must face up with
boldness and courage
and ability.