1 00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:03,839 Hey. If you're a newbie to Leading Saints, 2 00:00:03,839 --> 00:00:06,080 it's important that you know what is this 3 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:08,720 Leading Saints thing. Well, Leading Saints is a 4 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:09,939 nonprofit organization 5 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:13,384 dedicated to helping Latter day Saints be better 6 00:00:13,384 --> 00:00:15,384 prepared to lead. And the way we do 7 00:00:15,384 --> 00:00:17,864 that is through content creation. So we have 8 00:00:17,864 --> 00:00:20,105 this phenomenal podcast. We have a newsletter. We 9 00:00:20,105 --> 00:00:21,404 have virtual conferences, 10 00:00:21,785 --> 00:00:24,024 so much more. And articles on our website. 11 00:00:24,024 --> 00:00:25,224 I mean, I could go on and on. 12 00:00:25,224 --> 00:00:27,989 Right? And we encourage you to, jump in, 13 00:00:27,989 --> 00:00:30,149 check out Leading Saints, go to the search 14 00:00:30,149 --> 00:00:31,829 bar at leadingsaints.org 15 00:00:31,829 --> 00:00:33,829 and type in some topics and see what 16 00:00:33,829 --> 00:00:35,909 pops up. We're just glad you're here to 17 00:00:35,909 --> 00:00:36,649 join us. 18 00:00:41,465 --> 00:00:44,905 Let's be honest. Few humans enjoy meetings, and 19 00:00:44,905 --> 00:00:46,445 many feel trapped in meetings. 20 00:00:46,824 --> 00:00:49,064 As leaders, we don't want to burden those 21 00:00:49,064 --> 00:00:51,304 we lead, but meetings can seem to do 22 00:00:51,304 --> 00:00:53,704 that more often than not. We wanted to 23 00:00:53,704 --> 00:00:55,704 address the pain of meetings through the meetings 24 00:00:55,704 --> 00:00:56,924 with saints library. 25 00:00:57,390 --> 00:00:59,409 Here, we have 15 plus presentations 26 00:00:59,870 --> 00:01:02,829 dedicated to improving the meetings we run. We 27 00:01:02,829 --> 00:01:05,730 have experts in the field addressing topics like 28 00:01:05,790 --> 00:01:08,609 getting people involved in meetings, staying on task, 29 00:01:08,829 --> 00:01:11,085 dealing with conflict in meetings, and a ton 30 00:01:11,085 --> 00:01:13,325 more, we'd love you to explore the full 31 00:01:13,325 --> 00:01:16,365 Meetings with Saints library over fourteen days at 32 00:01:16,365 --> 00:01:18,204 no cost to you. You can do this 33 00:01:18,204 --> 00:01:20,945 by visiting leadingsaints.org/fourteen. 34 00:01:21,085 --> 00:01:24,145 That's leadingsaints.org/1four. 35 00:01:24,230 --> 00:01:25,989 We'll also give you access to all of 36 00:01:25,989 --> 00:01:28,950 our virtual libraries that educate about other leadership 37 00:01:28,950 --> 00:01:33,450 topics. It's really good stuff. So visit leadingsaints.org/14 38 00:01:33,670 --> 00:01:35,530 or click the link in the show notes. 39 00:01:39,510 --> 00:01:41,765 Hey, Everyone, welcome back to another episode of 40 00:01:41,765 --> 00:01:43,224 the Leading Saints podcast. 41 00:01:43,685 --> 00:01:45,045 This one's gonna be a little bit different, 42 00:01:45,045 --> 00:01:46,185 at least the format, 43 00:01:46,484 --> 00:01:48,405 because we got a lot of good things 44 00:01:48,405 --> 00:01:50,644 happening over at the Leading Saints community, and 45 00:01:50,644 --> 00:01:52,650 I bet many of you are thinking, what? 46 00:01:52,650 --> 00:01:54,730 What's the Leading Saints community? Well, if you 47 00:01:54,730 --> 00:01:57,290 go to leadingsaints.org/zion 48 00:01:57,290 --> 00:01:58,730 or go to the show notes, we'll link 49 00:01:58,730 --> 00:02:00,810 to it there as well. We have a 50 00:02:00,810 --> 00:02:03,870 full online community where people are submitting questions, 51 00:02:04,010 --> 00:02:04,510 starting 52 00:02:04,935 --> 00:02:07,415 discussions, we're having live streams. I mean, it 53 00:02:07,415 --> 00:02:08,875 is an interactive experience, 54 00:02:09,335 --> 00:02:12,155 a a community of Zion builders gathering together, 55 00:02:12,375 --> 00:02:15,094 talking about leadership and best practices and everything 56 00:02:15,094 --> 00:02:16,935 in between. So we invite you to check 57 00:02:16,935 --> 00:02:18,615 it out and see what's going on there. 58 00:02:18,615 --> 00:02:19,594 And then this 59 00:02:19,939 --> 00:02:21,620 recording that you're about to hear is actually 60 00:02:21,620 --> 00:02:24,180 from a live stream that we did between 61 00:02:24,180 --> 00:02:26,099 me and Dan Duckworth, who's a member of 62 00:02:26,099 --> 00:02:28,099 our board of directors and just a great 63 00:02:28,099 --> 00:02:30,500 leadership mind. And since it was a live 64 00:02:30,500 --> 00:02:33,194 stream, we had, sort of a live studio 65 00:02:33,194 --> 00:02:35,435 audience tuning in, and so you're gonna hear 66 00:02:35,435 --> 00:02:37,354 them ask questions as well. But we have 67 00:02:37,354 --> 00:02:38,014 a fantastic 68 00:02:38,634 --> 00:02:42,175 informal but very insightful discussion about building Zion, 69 00:02:42,235 --> 00:02:45,115 and, Dan is really a thought leader when 70 00:02:45,115 --> 00:02:47,360 it comes to this topic and and concept. 71 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:49,919 And so, really great discussion, one that will 72 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,239 lead to many others. So listen in, check 73 00:02:52,239 --> 00:02:54,159 it out, and, we'll see you over there 74 00:02:54,159 --> 00:02:56,659 at the Leading Saints community. Here's my interview 75 00:02:56,879 --> 00:02:57,860 with Dan Duckworth. 76 00:03:08,254 --> 00:03:10,014 Dan, this could be, like, more informal. I 77 00:03:10,014 --> 00:03:12,275 know, I never prep you with these things, 78 00:03:12,469 --> 00:03:14,389 at least fully, because I know that you're 79 00:03:14,389 --> 00:03:16,550 ready to go. I've rehearsed this at several 80 00:03:16,550 --> 00:03:18,550 lunches with you, and you always have something 81 00:03:18,550 --> 00:03:20,870 to say. If this is just lunchtime banter, 82 00:03:20,870 --> 00:03:23,909 we're good. Let's go. That's cool. Well, maybe 83 00:03:23,909 --> 00:03:25,209 let's just jump into 84 00:03:25,625 --> 00:03:27,405 these articles. We've been sharing them 85 00:03:27,705 --> 00:03:29,405 via the leading states newsletter, 86 00:03:29,705 --> 00:03:31,305 kind of a focus on Zion. You have 87 00:03:31,305 --> 00:03:33,625 a deep passion about Zion. I love learning 88 00:03:33,625 --> 00:03:35,625 from you about Zion, hearing you talk about 89 00:03:35,625 --> 00:03:38,219 Zion. There's a future book, I'm sure, in 90 00:03:38,219 --> 00:03:38,879 your future 91 00:03:39,259 --> 00:03:41,199 about Zion and these things. So 92 00:03:41,500 --> 00:03:43,739 was this just from your regular come follow 93 00:03:43,739 --> 00:03:45,900 me study? You kind of these principles jumped 94 00:03:45,900 --> 00:03:47,739 off the page at you? Yeah. So this 95 00:03:47,739 --> 00:03:48,939 is kind of a long time in the 96 00:03:48,939 --> 00:03:49,759 work. So 97 00:03:50,219 --> 00:03:51,519 what I'll say is that 98 00:03:51,895 --> 00:03:54,775 whenever I talk about transformational leadership and change 99 00:03:54,775 --> 00:03:57,014 making in the church context with people who 100 00:03:57,014 --> 00:03:58,775 are members of the church or in a 101 00:03:58,775 --> 00:03:59,594 church setting, 102 00:03:59,895 --> 00:04:02,935 there's this instant pushback, this instant resistance, like, 103 00:04:02,935 --> 00:04:04,155 there's something ungodly 104 00:04:04,455 --> 00:04:05,354 about this. 105 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:07,979 And people get a little bit uncomfortable 106 00:04:08,439 --> 00:04:09,419 about these themes. 107 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:11,340 And yet as I'm reading scriptures, 108 00:04:11,719 --> 00:04:13,319 you know, for the last ten years, I'm 109 00:04:13,319 --> 00:04:15,240 like, this is in here. Like, this is 110 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,560 all in here. This is all the way 111 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:19,560 Jesus led and the way Jesus is asking 112 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:20,379 us to lead. 113 00:04:20,764 --> 00:04:23,004 And so for a long while, I've had 114 00:04:23,004 --> 00:04:24,605 this idea that what I need to do 115 00:04:24,605 --> 00:04:27,165 for myself really is that I need to 116 00:04:27,165 --> 00:04:28,785 build a faithful 117 00:04:29,485 --> 00:04:29,985 vocabulary 118 00:04:30,845 --> 00:04:32,545 of leadership in the church, 119 00:04:32,970 --> 00:04:34,650 meaning that I want to draw from the 120 00:04:34,650 --> 00:04:36,970 scriptures and help people see, okay, a lot 121 00:04:36,970 --> 00:04:39,050 of my language and vocabulary comes from the 122 00:04:39,050 --> 00:04:42,110 leadership development industry or through, or through other 123 00:04:42,410 --> 00:04:45,449 fields of study. And it's not landing well 124 00:04:45,449 --> 00:04:47,370 for members of the church, especially those who 125 00:04:47,370 --> 00:04:50,355 are more in traditional leadership roles and callings, 126 00:04:50,355 --> 00:04:53,074 especially lifelong people who have been in those 127 00:04:53,074 --> 00:04:55,975 callings. It doesn't land well for them. So 128 00:04:56,435 --> 00:04:58,615 I started to experiment a little bit with 129 00:04:58,754 --> 00:05:00,514 a few things here and there, like pulling 130 00:05:00,514 --> 00:05:02,490 scriptures out. So for example, I'll just give 131 00:05:02,490 --> 00:05:04,509 you, I'll give you an example. You know, 132 00:05:04,649 --> 00:05:06,110 I'll say something like this. 133 00:05:06,410 --> 00:05:09,050 There's no hierarchy in heaven. There's no hierarchy 134 00:05:09,050 --> 00:05:11,769 in Zion. And instantly people will go, what 135 00:05:11,769 --> 00:05:14,350 are you talking about? Like, God loves hierarchy. 136 00:05:14,569 --> 00:05:16,935 Like it's all about the rungs on the 137 00:05:16,935 --> 00:05:18,535 ladder. And if you just look at the 138 00:05:18,535 --> 00:05:19,675 order of the church, 139 00:05:20,134 --> 00:05:22,694 it proves that God loves hierarchy. I'm like, 140 00:05:22,694 --> 00:05:24,295 no. No. No. If you look at the 141 00:05:24,295 --> 00:05:25,895 way we're doing church or the way that 142 00:05:25,895 --> 00:05:26,714 we've interpreted 143 00:05:27,014 --> 00:05:28,714 the doctrines and even the handbook 144 00:05:29,069 --> 00:05:31,069 and culturally the way we're doing it, yes, 145 00:05:31,069 --> 00:05:33,789 all you see is hierarchy, but that isn't 146 00:05:33,789 --> 00:05:36,110 God's way. K? So I can just start 147 00:05:36,110 --> 00:05:37,250 from a very theoretical, 148 00:05:37,709 --> 00:05:38,209 spiritual, 149 00:05:38,589 --> 00:05:41,709 theoretical perspective and say, God has clearly said 150 00:05:41,709 --> 00:05:43,754 my ways are not your ways. My ways 151 00:05:43,754 --> 00:05:46,235 are higher than your ways. Well, what is 152 00:05:46,235 --> 00:05:48,014 man's way when it comes to organizing, 153 00:05:48,555 --> 00:05:52,014 if not hierarchy? Yeah. For thousands of years 154 00:05:52,394 --> 00:05:54,154 under any kind of model, whether it's a 155 00:05:54,154 --> 00:05:57,354 theocracy or a democracy, whether it's corporate life 156 00:05:57,354 --> 00:05:58,574 or a feudal system, 157 00:05:58,949 --> 00:06:01,269 everything is about power and getting to the 158 00:06:01,269 --> 00:06:03,189 top. And those who have power and those 159 00:06:03,189 --> 00:06:04,629 who are on the top dominate those who 160 00:06:04,629 --> 00:06:05,930 don't. That's hierarchy. 161 00:06:06,550 --> 00:06:08,729 And we replicated that in the church, 162 00:06:09,029 --> 00:06:11,449 but just without using any sort of 163 00:06:11,894 --> 00:06:12,394 explicit 164 00:06:12,855 --> 00:06:14,214 scripture that's out there because we can go 165 00:06:14,214 --> 00:06:16,935 into that. Just even that concept alone that 166 00:06:16,935 --> 00:06:19,675 God's ways are different and higher than man's, 167 00:06:19,975 --> 00:06:20,475 therefore, 168 00:06:21,175 --> 00:06:23,915 his way of order and structure and leadership 169 00:06:24,214 --> 00:06:26,930 must be different than even the best that 170 00:06:26,930 --> 00:06:29,410 man has to offer. Yeah. And that's the 171 00:06:29,410 --> 00:06:31,170 tough thing is that just like most things 172 00:06:31,170 --> 00:06:34,290 with heaven or mortals striving to get to 173 00:06:34,290 --> 00:06:37,269 heaven is that mortality makes it really complicated 174 00:06:37,330 --> 00:06:38,709 and tricky. Right? Because, 175 00:06:39,024 --> 00:06:40,865 I don't know. I mean, obviously, there's a 176 00:06:40,865 --> 00:06:42,785 hierarchy in the church and kinda feel like 177 00:06:42,785 --> 00:06:44,485 it should be that way. We talk about 178 00:06:44,544 --> 00:06:46,305 authority and keys and things, and so we 179 00:06:46,305 --> 00:06:48,704 project that onto heaven. Right? Well, even in 180 00:06:48,704 --> 00:06:51,584 the church, that's what we've created, but that's 181 00:06:51,584 --> 00:06:53,089 not doctrine only what's there or even in 182 00:06:53,089 --> 00:06:55,250 the handbook. The court has a system of 183 00:06:55,250 --> 00:06:56,149 stew of stewardship, 184 00:06:56,529 --> 00:06:58,069 of councils, of governance, 185 00:06:58,529 --> 00:06:59,029 of 186 00:06:59,409 --> 00:07:00,389 emergent leadership, 187 00:07:00,689 --> 00:07:03,490 and we have not lived into that, but 188 00:07:03,490 --> 00:07:05,009 that's what's there. So as I'm reading the 189 00:07:05,009 --> 00:07:06,870 Doctrine and Covenants, I'll give you an example. 190 00:07:07,115 --> 00:07:08,795 I'm reading the doctrine and covenants and it 191 00:07:08,795 --> 00:07:10,634 says very explicitly, and I, by the way, 192 00:07:10,634 --> 00:07:13,055 I've written probably two dozen of these 193 00:07:13,435 --> 00:07:15,274 essays at this point through the doctrine and 194 00:07:15,274 --> 00:07:18,014 covenants. And so my mind no longer remembers 195 00:07:18,235 --> 00:07:19,134 specific scriptures. 196 00:07:19,915 --> 00:07:21,274 Yeah. If people need to go to like 197 00:07:21,274 --> 00:07:23,479 the specific section in verse, I'll have to 198 00:07:23,479 --> 00:07:25,399 stop and pause and and look that up. 199 00:07:25,399 --> 00:07:26,919 But it says in the Doctrine and Covenants, 200 00:07:26,919 --> 00:07:29,800 in Zion, there shall be no king and 201 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:30,539 no ruler. 202 00:07:30,919 --> 00:07:33,399 No king, no ruler. Now you could read 203 00:07:33,399 --> 00:07:35,079 that and you could say, that's a prophecy 204 00:07:35,079 --> 00:07:38,024 of a future day, that someday we won't 205 00:07:38,024 --> 00:07:39,785 need a king or a ruler. But if 206 00:07:39,785 --> 00:07:42,764 you understand Zion not as a future 207 00:07:43,464 --> 00:07:46,524 state a future, you know, city in Missouri, 208 00:07:46,985 --> 00:07:49,464 but if you understand Zion as a social 209 00:07:49,464 --> 00:07:52,079 condition of one heart and one mind, of 210 00:07:52,079 --> 00:07:54,240 a people who are united in the cause 211 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:54,899 of Christ 212 00:07:55,519 --> 00:07:58,000 and who have no poor among them. Poor 213 00:07:58,000 --> 00:07:59,699 not necessarily always meaning 214 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:01,139 financially poor, 215 00:08:01,519 --> 00:08:04,019 but meaning in terms of status and distinction 216 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,564 between us. So if you understand Zion is 217 00:08:06,564 --> 00:08:08,504 that social condition and now you hear that 218 00:08:08,644 --> 00:08:10,404 scripture that says there is no king and 219 00:08:10,404 --> 00:08:12,164 no ruler in Zion, all of a sudden 220 00:08:12,164 --> 00:08:14,884 that becomes a pattern in its principle. And 221 00:08:14,884 --> 00:08:16,964 you start to say to yourself, in my 222 00:08:16,964 --> 00:08:19,284 family, is there a king? Is there a 223 00:08:19,284 --> 00:08:19,784 ruler? 224 00:08:20,139 --> 00:08:21,920 Even if that is a benevolent ruler, 225 00:08:22,939 --> 00:08:24,699 in my ward or my quorum or my 226 00:08:24,699 --> 00:08:26,939 ward council or my stake, is there a 227 00:08:26,939 --> 00:08:29,580 ruler? Is there a king? Because if there 228 00:08:29,580 --> 00:08:30,080 is, 229 00:08:30,460 --> 00:08:32,480 there is not a Zion condition. 230 00:08:32,894 --> 00:08:35,295 At best, there is a benevolent hierarchy, but 231 00:08:35,295 --> 00:08:37,055 that's not Zion. And so now all of 232 00:08:37,055 --> 00:08:38,815 a sudden in the Doctrine and Covenants, we 233 00:08:38,815 --> 00:08:40,274 start to pull out this language 234 00:08:40,654 --> 00:08:43,055 that helps us understand, okay, it's one thing 235 00:08:43,055 --> 00:08:44,735 to say there is no hierarchy in Zion, 236 00:08:44,735 --> 00:08:46,975 but now specifically the Doctrine and Covenants is 237 00:08:46,975 --> 00:08:47,475 saying 238 00:08:47,970 --> 00:08:50,529 the pinnacle of the hierarchy doesn't exist in 239 00:08:50,529 --> 00:08:52,370 Zion. If there's no king and no ruler, 240 00:08:52,370 --> 00:08:54,789 there is no hierarchy. We're talking about something, 241 00:08:55,009 --> 00:08:56,370 a way of being and a way of 242 00:08:56,370 --> 00:08:59,804 order and structure that's completely different. Yeah. And 243 00:08:59,884 --> 00:09:01,725 it's so easy with Zion, I think, even 244 00:09:01,725 --> 00:09:03,964 in our culture. Zion is oftentimes a someday 245 00:09:03,964 --> 00:09:05,565 thing or it's almost like a fringe benefit 246 00:09:05,565 --> 00:09:07,325 of once Christ comes back and puts everything 247 00:09:07,325 --> 00:09:09,004 in order, then we gotta kind of get 248 00:09:09,004 --> 00:09:11,164 it to experience this Zion thing rather than 249 00:09:11,164 --> 00:09:13,964 this motivating factor or this goal of hit 250 00:09:13,964 --> 00:09:15,440 the here and now. Right? And And that's 251 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:17,379 kinda where we we really miss the boat. 252 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:19,279 Yeah. And I think right. So people will 253 00:09:19,279 --> 00:09:20,639 say, like, well, no. The scriptures are pretty 254 00:09:20,639 --> 00:09:22,559 clear that Zion is a someday thing. Like 255 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:24,960 Sure. There will be this moment of millennial 256 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,279 reign, you know, Missouri, Jackson County, whatever it 257 00:09:27,279 --> 00:09:30,065 is. Right? And what we have to say 258 00:09:30,065 --> 00:09:32,004 right from the beginning is we're not saying 259 00:09:32,065 --> 00:09:33,904 no to that. We're not saying that's wrong. 260 00:09:33,904 --> 00:09:35,365 We're saying yes, and. 261 00:09:35,825 --> 00:09:38,644 So there will someday be a community 262 00:09:39,105 --> 00:09:39,585 or, 263 00:09:40,144 --> 00:09:41,365 you know, an ecclesiastical 264 00:09:41,745 --> 00:09:45,320 society there called Zion. But the word Zion 265 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:46,139 has meaning 266 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:49,339 outside of that context. It has for centuries. 267 00:09:49,799 --> 00:09:52,039 And so, for example, when you look at 268 00:09:52,039 --> 00:09:53,320 the use of the word Zion in the 269 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:55,799 Old Testament, mostly Isaiah is the one who 270 00:09:55,799 --> 00:09:59,615 uses it. It's almost always referring to a 271 00:09:59,834 --> 00:10:00,334 place 272 00:10:00,714 --> 00:10:03,115 in Jerusalem. And I'm not some Jerusalem scholar, 273 00:10:03,115 --> 00:10:05,615 but there's a hill called Zion 274 00:10:06,074 --> 00:10:08,794 related to the Temple Mount. Right? So when 275 00:10:08,794 --> 00:10:11,134 he's talking about Zion, he's almost always 276 00:10:11,519 --> 00:10:14,080 referring to the enemies of Israel, and he's 277 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:16,960 saying that hill right there is proof that 278 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:18,800 we're going to dominate you, that we're going 279 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,060 to overcome you, that we're going to whatever. 280 00:10:21,279 --> 00:10:23,200 And so you could say, okay. Well, what 281 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,695 is special about that hill? Because it was, 282 00:10:25,774 --> 00:10:27,535 potentially, it seems like it was called Zion 283 00:10:27,535 --> 00:10:29,375 even before the temple was built there or 284 00:10:29,375 --> 00:10:30,894 built around it. I'm not even sure how 285 00:10:30,894 --> 00:10:32,414 the temple fits in there, but somehow that 286 00:10:32,414 --> 00:10:33,875 hill is related to the temple. 287 00:10:34,335 --> 00:10:36,495 So there's this word in this concept Zion, 288 00:10:36,495 --> 00:10:38,735 like, somebody gave that place the name Zion. 289 00:10:38,735 --> 00:10:41,129 Well, why? Well, God himself, Jesus himself has 290 00:10:41,129 --> 00:10:43,610 told us what Zion means irrespective of the 291 00:10:43,610 --> 00:10:45,850 city. Right? It's a people who are of 292 00:10:45,850 --> 00:10:47,610 one heart and one mind, and the Lord 293 00:10:47,610 --> 00:10:50,330 called his people Zion. Right? So there's this 294 00:10:50,330 --> 00:10:50,830 concept 295 00:10:51,290 --> 00:10:52,269 within God's 296 00:10:53,115 --> 00:10:55,375 metaverse here. There's this concept 297 00:10:55,835 --> 00:10:57,375 of a social condition 298 00:10:57,754 --> 00:11:00,075 in which people are coming together. They're united 299 00:11:00,075 --> 00:11:00,735 in purpose 300 00:11:01,035 --> 00:11:01,934 and in cause, 301 00:11:02,394 --> 00:11:02,894 and 302 00:11:03,355 --> 00:11:05,274 God gives it a name. That condition is 303 00:11:05,274 --> 00:11:08,200 called Zion. Now we could name a city 304 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,440 in Jackson County that's coming in the future 305 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,600 or that was potentially going to come in 306 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,259 Joseph Smith's time. We could name that Zion 307 00:11:15,399 --> 00:11:17,960 after that condition to bring to our mind 308 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:19,639 and to hearken us and to orient us 309 00:11:19,639 --> 00:11:20,620 toward that condition. 310 00:11:20,964 --> 00:11:23,845 But, fundamentally, that word Zion was first used 311 00:11:23,845 --> 00:11:26,565 by the Lord to describe that type of 312 00:11:26,565 --> 00:11:29,384 community, which was built anciently 313 00:11:30,004 --> 00:11:31,464 by Enoch and by others 314 00:11:31,845 --> 00:11:33,304 and is being built today 315 00:11:33,684 --> 00:11:35,459 all over the world. Yeah. 316 00:11:35,759 --> 00:11:37,620 Dan, like, why is this such a leadership 317 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:41,600 focused topic in your mind? So when you 318 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:43,600 start to understand that Zion is a social 319 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:45,600 state, you also have to understand that there 320 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,179 are conditions that prevent Zion from happening naturally. 321 00:11:48,934 --> 00:11:50,855 And these are what I sometimes call the 322 00:11:50,855 --> 00:11:53,735 hidden forces or the systemic forces that kind 323 00:11:53,735 --> 00:11:55,735 of control the way that we work together. 324 00:11:55,735 --> 00:11:58,375 There's a reason why there's a similar vibe 325 00:11:58,375 --> 00:12:00,695 and a similar experience in almost every workplace 326 00:12:00,695 --> 00:12:03,340 you go to, in almost every school classroom, 327 00:12:03,399 --> 00:12:06,279 in almost every ward, in board council, because 328 00:12:06,279 --> 00:12:09,080 there are these systemic forces that work on 329 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:11,019 us and orient our behavior. 330 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,220 And those systemic forces are innumerable, 331 00:12:14,664 --> 00:12:17,245 but some of the broad categories include ideology, 332 00:12:17,865 --> 00:12:18,365 culture, 333 00:12:18,985 --> 00:12:19,485 structure, 334 00:12:20,024 --> 00:12:20,924 power dynamics. 335 00:12:21,384 --> 00:12:23,065 These are things that work to kind of 336 00:12:23,065 --> 00:12:24,664 control the way that we show up, and 337 00:12:24,664 --> 00:12:26,424 we do this like fish and water. We 338 00:12:26,424 --> 00:12:28,379 don't know that this is happening to us. 339 00:12:28,379 --> 00:12:30,960 The fish doesn't know how the water is 340 00:12:31,179 --> 00:12:33,139 changing its experience. It's just swimming in water. 341 00:12:33,139 --> 00:12:34,700 It doesn't even really know the water is 342 00:12:34,700 --> 00:12:37,179 there. That's similar to us as we go 343 00:12:37,179 --> 00:12:39,500 about our organizational life. We think we're free 344 00:12:39,500 --> 00:12:41,919 independent actors, but the truth is our behavior 345 00:12:42,464 --> 00:12:45,664 is constrained and channeled in ways that we 346 00:12:45,664 --> 00:12:47,584 don't even see. And, you know, we're coming 347 00:12:47,584 --> 00:12:49,745 up with words these days like unconscious bias 348 00:12:49,745 --> 00:12:51,184 and other things like that to kind of 349 00:12:51,184 --> 00:12:53,504 describe this, but we have to recognize that 350 00:12:53,504 --> 00:12:56,884 we're being forced or channeled into a certain 351 00:12:57,159 --> 00:12:59,659 way of gathering and working together. 352 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:00,620 Zion, 353 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:01,500 therefore, 354 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,220 never does Zion just happen. 355 00:13:04,759 --> 00:13:07,879 Zion is always the result then of the 356 00:13:07,879 --> 00:13:10,460 work of breaking free from those forces 357 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,615 and creating something different. Well, if you understand 358 00:13:13,615 --> 00:13:16,194 what leadership really is, we just described leadership 359 00:13:16,495 --> 00:13:19,634 right there. Leadership is the work of breaking 360 00:13:20,174 --> 00:13:22,914 people and groups free from the status quo 361 00:13:23,134 --> 00:13:25,375 and enabling them to build something better and 362 00:13:25,375 --> 00:13:26,434 beautiful and glorious. 363 00:13:27,019 --> 00:13:30,379 And Zion is always the ideal of every 364 00:13:30,379 --> 00:13:32,720 leader. And they might not call it Zion. 365 00:13:32,860 --> 00:13:34,779 They might call it a high performing team, 366 00:13:34,779 --> 00:13:36,720 or they might call it a positive organization, 367 00:13:37,340 --> 00:13:39,500 or they might call it a glorious society, 368 00:13:39,500 --> 00:13:41,865 or Martin Luther King called it a beloved 369 00:13:41,925 --> 00:13:42,425 community. 370 00:13:42,884 --> 00:13:45,285 But Zion is always that aspiration. You you 371 00:13:45,285 --> 00:13:47,365 look at your family or your ward council 372 00:13:47,365 --> 00:13:49,684 or your Relief Society presidency, and you you 373 00:13:49,684 --> 00:13:51,925 have this thought. We could be amazing. We 374 00:13:51,925 --> 00:13:53,945 could do great things if only 375 00:13:54,259 --> 00:13:57,059 we could break free from those forces that 376 00:13:57,059 --> 00:13:59,139 are channeling us to the status quo. And 377 00:13:59,139 --> 00:14:01,059 that's why I say Zion is always a 378 00:14:01,059 --> 00:14:04,100 leadership project. And in a church, we're so 379 00:14:04,100 --> 00:14:05,720 steeped in the ecclesiastical 380 00:14:06,259 --> 00:14:08,740 project. We're so steeped in the work of 381 00:14:08,740 --> 00:14:12,095 changing hearts for their own individual salvation, which 382 00:14:12,095 --> 00:14:12,754 is obviously 383 00:14:13,214 --> 00:14:14,975 godly work and the work of the gospel 384 00:14:14,975 --> 00:14:17,375 and the church. But the work of Zion 385 00:14:17,375 --> 00:14:19,394 building is not that work. 386 00:14:19,774 --> 00:14:22,014 It is not the work of helping people 387 00:14:22,014 --> 00:14:24,595 become disciples. It is the work of transforming 388 00:14:25,089 --> 00:14:26,309 structures and systems, 389 00:14:26,850 --> 00:14:27,909 liberating people 390 00:14:28,210 --> 00:14:31,190 from what is binding them structurally and systemically 391 00:14:31,809 --> 00:14:33,809 so that they can build this other kind 392 00:14:33,809 --> 00:14:37,110 of community. And that has a critical place 393 00:14:37,409 --> 00:14:39,750 within the theology of Jesus Christ, 394 00:14:40,345 --> 00:14:43,465 but we often take those concepts that Jesus 395 00:14:43,465 --> 00:14:45,144 has given us and the examples that he's 396 00:14:45,144 --> 00:14:47,144 given us, and we try to channel those 397 00:14:47,144 --> 00:14:48,365 back to the ecclesiastical, 398 00:14:48,825 --> 00:14:50,924 to the preaching, to the repentance, 399 00:14:51,225 --> 00:14:54,024 to the covenants, the, you know, the individual 400 00:14:54,024 --> 00:14:56,610 covenants with God, and we lose sight of 401 00:14:56,610 --> 00:14:59,169 this other work that Jesus was asking us 402 00:14:59,169 --> 00:15:00,929 to do. And not all of us, but 403 00:15:00,929 --> 00:15:04,049 some of us to do. Yep. So, Marty, 404 00:15:04,049 --> 00:15:05,809 Ray, do you have any questions you wanna 405 00:15:05,809 --> 00:15:07,909 you wanna ask, or you just like listening? 406 00:15:08,209 --> 00:15:11,235 No. I appreciate the thoughts. I'm trying to 407 00:15:11,235 --> 00:15:14,214 digest it. But Yeah. I guess this idea 408 00:15:14,274 --> 00:15:16,434 of I like what you're saying. I guess 409 00:15:16,434 --> 00:15:18,434 I'm wondering how do you have a how 410 00:15:18,434 --> 00:15:20,115 do you not have a leader of some 411 00:15:20,115 --> 00:15:21,735 sort? How do you not have a benevolent 412 00:15:21,954 --> 00:15:22,454 leader? 413 00:15:23,049 --> 00:15:24,750 Just everyone just knows, 414 00:15:25,290 --> 00:15:26,910 I guess, in Zion, everybody 415 00:15:27,610 --> 00:15:29,769 does what needs to be done? Yeah. That's 416 00:15:29,769 --> 00:15:32,410 a great question, Ryan. And, yes, basically, you 417 00:15:32,410 --> 00:15:34,410 just answered it. But let's let's kinda break 418 00:15:34,410 --> 00:15:35,710 that down a little bit because 419 00:15:36,014 --> 00:15:38,035 Jesus gave us some pretty interesting 420 00:15:38,654 --> 00:15:40,975 template or blueprint in the Doctrine and Covenants. 421 00:15:40,975 --> 00:15:43,295 And so let's just look specifically at section 422 00:15:43,295 --> 00:15:45,535 46, which was when I read it this 423 00:15:45,535 --> 00:15:47,055 time, I was just like mind blown. How 424 00:15:47,055 --> 00:15:49,139 did I never see this before? K. 425 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:51,839 So, you know, section 46 is the section 426 00:15:51,839 --> 00:15:53,519 on the gifts of the spirit, and that's 427 00:15:53,519 --> 00:15:55,279 where every Sunday school lesson ever goes. And 428 00:15:55,279 --> 00:15:57,299 that's why we don't notice these other things 429 00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:59,360 because we focus on the gifts of the 430 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:01,039 spirit. What gift do you have? What is 431 00:16:01,039 --> 00:16:03,035 the gift of testimony? What is the gift 432 00:16:03,035 --> 00:16:05,455 of healing? Right. We go to that, but 433 00:16:05,754 --> 00:16:08,335 the Lord prefaces that list of gifts 434 00:16:08,715 --> 00:16:10,014 by basically saying, 435 00:16:10,634 --> 00:16:12,875 I am going to show you how you 436 00:16:12,875 --> 00:16:15,195 all can work together in a Zion like 437 00:16:15,195 --> 00:16:15,695 fashion. 438 00:16:16,399 --> 00:16:18,879 And point number one is that he has 439 00:16:18,879 --> 00:16:21,940 given these gifts according to his mercies, 440 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,059 but there are differences of administration. 441 00:16:25,759 --> 00:16:27,759 Okay. So just kind of breaking that down 442 00:16:27,759 --> 00:16:29,894 a little bit. I've bungled that because, again, 443 00:16:29,894 --> 00:16:31,575 it's been a couple weeks since I've been 444 00:16:31,575 --> 00:16:32,394 in that section. 445 00:16:32,774 --> 00:16:34,855 But when the Lord talks about differences of 446 00:16:34,855 --> 00:16:37,495 administration, he's basically acknowledging right then and there 447 00:16:37,495 --> 00:16:38,634 that there are different 448 00:16:39,014 --> 00:16:40,555 approaches to leadership, 449 00:16:40,935 --> 00:16:42,555 to management, to administration 450 00:16:43,095 --> 00:16:45,195 in each ward, in each week, 451 00:16:45,659 --> 00:16:46,639 in each council. 452 00:16:46,940 --> 00:16:48,940 Right? And the problem that we often run 453 00:16:48,940 --> 00:16:51,179 into is when we're constrained by the normal 454 00:16:51,179 --> 00:16:54,459 forces, we fall into patterns, to structures, to 455 00:16:54,459 --> 00:16:54,959 ruts, 456 00:16:55,259 --> 00:16:56,079 to orthodoxy. 457 00:16:56,379 --> 00:16:57,839 We create orthodoxy 458 00:16:58,394 --> 00:17:00,634 and there becomes a way to do things 459 00:17:00,634 --> 00:17:02,554 in the name of efficiency. So just think 460 00:17:02,554 --> 00:17:04,555 of a word council. Right? We're gonna do 461 00:17:04,555 --> 00:17:07,914 the agenda the same every single week. Well, 462 00:17:07,914 --> 00:17:09,994 that is not God's way. That is man's 463 00:17:09,994 --> 00:17:11,055 way. And, frankly, 464 00:17:11,500 --> 00:17:12,779 this is where I get could get into 465 00:17:12,779 --> 00:17:14,299 a little bit of trouble, but, you know, 466 00:17:14,299 --> 00:17:15,579 there was a book that came out by 467 00:17:15,579 --> 00:17:17,359 Elder Ballard, Counseling with Your Councils, 468 00:17:17,819 --> 00:17:18,960 and it was helpful 469 00:17:19,419 --> 00:17:21,900 for a group of lay leaders who didn't 470 00:17:21,900 --> 00:17:22,400 have 471 00:17:22,859 --> 00:17:24,000 strong business 472 00:17:24,575 --> 00:17:27,694 acumen and administrative backgrounds. It was helpful to 473 00:17:27,694 --> 00:17:29,934 say, hey, you should have an agenda. You 474 00:17:29,934 --> 00:17:32,255 should think through timing. You should write but 475 00:17:32,255 --> 00:17:33,855 it was if you read it, it's very 476 00:17:33,855 --> 00:17:36,255 much a business oriented book, like how to 477 00:17:36,255 --> 00:17:39,375 be efficient running meetings. There's nothing in the 478 00:17:39,375 --> 00:17:39,875 scriptures 479 00:17:40,390 --> 00:17:42,309 that tells us about that. In fact, God 480 00:17:42,309 --> 00:17:44,710 says here, there's a difference of administration. There 481 00:17:44,710 --> 00:17:47,190 should be a different feeling and vibe and 482 00:17:47,190 --> 00:17:50,329 structure and approach in basically every ward council 483 00:17:50,710 --> 00:17:52,470 because it should be led by what the 484 00:17:52,470 --> 00:17:55,304 Lord follows with next. He says according to 485 00:17:55,304 --> 00:17:56,125 the mercies 486 00:17:56,744 --> 00:17:58,345 that I have, something like the mercies I 487 00:17:58,345 --> 00:18:00,825 have towards the children of men. So think 488 00:18:00,825 --> 00:18:02,285 about that. Mercy 489 00:18:02,825 --> 00:18:06,684 is about meeting people's needs. It's about recognizing 490 00:18:06,744 --> 00:18:08,744 where there's pain, where there's suffering, where there's 491 00:18:08,744 --> 00:18:09,244 brokenness, 492 00:18:09,839 --> 00:18:12,079 where there's cracks. Right? And it's saying, let 493 00:18:12,079 --> 00:18:14,480 me meet you where those needs are. So 494 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:16,960 now God is saying, okay. There's going to 495 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:18,099 be those needs 496 00:18:18,559 --> 00:18:19,700 in every unique 497 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:21,460 family, in every unique 498 00:18:21,914 --> 00:18:24,634 business team, in every unique department. There's gonna 499 00:18:24,634 --> 00:18:27,115 be those unique needs, and you should be 500 00:18:27,115 --> 00:18:29,934 matching those needs, meeting those needs, discerning 501 00:18:30,555 --> 00:18:32,555 those needs. And then he says, by the 502 00:18:32,555 --> 00:18:33,055 way, 503 00:18:33,434 --> 00:18:36,174 in order to do that, I've given everybody 504 00:18:36,315 --> 00:18:37,215 in the community, 505 00:18:37,519 --> 00:18:39,440 on the council, in the family. I've given 506 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,500 everybody a gift and to some multiple gifts. 507 00:18:42,879 --> 00:18:45,200 And if you knew how to enable and 508 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:47,759 allow those gifts to flourish in their time 509 00:18:47,759 --> 00:18:48,819 and in their season, 510 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,744 the needs would be met. And so, yes, 511 00:18:51,744 --> 00:18:53,585 it is. We would just know how to 512 00:18:53,585 --> 00:18:55,744 do it, but it's according to the mercies 513 00:18:55,744 --> 00:18:57,345 of God, to the needs that are there 514 00:18:57,345 --> 00:18:59,765 of the children of men, and it's according 515 00:18:59,825 --> 00:19:01,984 to who's got what gift for what time 516 00:19:01,984 --> 00:19:04,380 and for what season. K. So now let's 517 00:19:04,380 --> 00:19:06,140 take that a little bit further because the 518 00:19:06,140 --> 00:19:06,880 lord does. 519 00:19:07,180 --> 00:19:08,619 He lists out a couple of the gifts 520 00:19:08,619 --> 00:19:11,440 right there, and then very pointedly, he says, 521 00:19:11,740 --> 00:19:13,840 and I've given you a bishop 522 00:19:14,299 --> 00:19:16,160 or someone to discern 523 00:19:16,460 --> 00:19:17,200 the gifts. 524 00:19:17,684 --> 00:19:19,144 K? A bishop 525 00:19:19,764 --> 00:19:20,904 is a structural 526 00:19:21,284 --> 00:19:21,784 role. 527 00:19:22,085 --> 00:19:24,085 K? Yes. It's a priesthood office, and, yes, 528 00:19:24,085 --> 00:19:26,404 it has eternal significance and judging Israel and 529 00:19:26,404 --> 00:19:28,565 all that stuff. But, structurally, what God's talking 530 00:19:28,565 --> 00:19:30,404 about here in the community, he's saying there 531 00:19:30,404 --> 00:19:31,704 is one appointed 532 00:19:32,244 --> 00:19:33,349 as the 533 00:19:33,970 --> 00:19:36,049 person in the hierarchy. Right? So there is 534 00:19:36,049 --> 00:19:36,710 a structure 535 00:19:37,410 --> 00:19:38,950 in our organizations. 536 00:19:39,890 --> 00:19:42,789 But very specifically, he says his role 537 00:19:43,089 --> 00:19:46,335 is to discern whether those gifts be of 538 00:19:46,335 --> 00:19:46,994 the spirit 539 00:19:47,535 --> 00:19:49,554 or of some other spirit. 540 00:19:49,934 --> 00:19:50,434 K? 541 00:19:50,734 --> 00:19:51,954 Now that's a critical 542 00:19:52,335 --> 00:19:53,474 distinction because 543 00:19:53,775 --> 00:19:56,255 if a bishop starts to think it's his 544 00:19:56,255 --> 00:19:58,434 job to decide who gets what gifts, 545 00:19:58,829 --> 00:20:00,289 where those gifts get applied, 546 00:20:00,750 --> 00:20:02,289 how those gifts get leveraged, 547 00:20:02,829 --> 00:20:05,069 etcetera, etcetera, which gifts are more valuable than 548 00:20:05,069 --> 00:20:05,569 others, 549 00:20:06,029 --> 00:20:07,970 when I don't like your gift, etcetera. 550 00:20:08,349 --> 00:20:10,049 As soon as he begins to do that, 551 00:20:10,109 --> 00:20:10,849 he becomes 552 00:20:11,390 --> 00:20:13,554 a ruler. And we've already talked about how 553 00:20:13,554 --> 00:20:15,794 there is no ruler in Zion. So God 554 00:20:15,794 --> 00:20:17,794 has specifically said here, the role of that 555 00:20:17,794 --> 00:20:20,514 person is to discern whether what is being 556 00:20:20,514 --> 00:20:22,914 claimed is true. So if I show up 557 00:20:22,914 --> 00:20:23,654 and say 558 00:20:23,954 --> 00:20:25,634 or not even say, but just through my 559 00:20:25,634 --> 00:20:26,855 actions and 560 00:20:27,289 --> 00:20:29,529 exhibiting a certain gift, maybe a gift of 561 00:20:29,529 --> 00:20:30,029 healing. 562 00:20:30,490 --> 00:20:32,490 And I'm I'm doing that gift in the 563 00:20:32,490 --> 00:20:34,829 community. The Bishop has a role 564 00:20:35,289 --> 00:20:38,589 to discern is that gift coming from God 565 00:20:38,809 --> 00:20:40,490 and from the spirit and from a place 566 00:20:40,490 --> 00:20:42,669 of love and righteousness and 567 00:20:43,184 --> 00:20:46,164 virtue and help and all those things. Right? 568 00:20:46,384 --> 00:20:48,244 Praise really lovely of good report. 569 00:20:48,625 --> 00:20:51,845 Or is there some other agenda here? 570 00:20:52,304 --> 00:20:54,404 Is there some, you know, 571 00:20:54,784 --> 00:20:57,105 somebody trying to get something out of people? 572 00:20:57,105 --> 00:20:58,884 Is there somebody trying to 573 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,279 puff themselves up and to make right? So 574 00:21:02,279 --> 00:21:03,420 you guys get the idea. 575 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:05,400 Okay. So we could stop there, but God 576 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,180 doesn't. He goes one step further. 577 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:09,500 After describing this role of the bishop, 578 00:21:09,799 --> 00:21:10,539 he says 579 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:12,779 he describes another role, 580 00:21:13,204 --> 00:21:15,464 and he calls it the head. 581 00:21:15,924 --> 00:21:17,305 He says, and sometimes 582 00:21:17,845 --> 00:21:20,505 it is given to another or to someone 583 00:21:20,964 --> 00:21:23,045 all the gifts that there may be a 584 00:21:23,045 --> 00:21:25,204 head. Okay? Now think about it. We're talking 585 00:21:25,204 --> 00:21:27,269 about the body of Christ here. He has 586 00:21:27,269 --> 00:21:28,970 just described the head 587 00:21:29,350 --> 00:21:31,830 separate from the bishop. Hierarchically, we think, oh, 588 00:21:31,830 --> 00:21:33,590 yeah. The bishop is the head or the 589 00:21:33,590 --> 00:21:35,430 the father or the mother is the head 590 00:21:35,430 --> 00:21:37,769 or the CEO is the head or the 591 00:21:37,830 --> 00:21:40,404 project manager is the head. But he says 592 00:21:40,404 --> 00:21:43,125 no. It's to one who is given the 593 00:21:43,125 --> 00:21:43,625 gifts, 594 00:21:44,085 --> 00:21:44,904 many gifts, 595 00:21:45,445 --> 00:21:47,605 who is the head. Now the role of 596 00:21:47,605 --> 00:21:49,705 the head with respect to the body 597 00:21:50,164 --> 00:21:50,904 is to 598 00:21:51,285 --> 00:21:54,265 provide the mechanical function and and, you know, 599 00:21:54,380 --> 00:21:55,980 what is this happening? What is you know? 600 00:21:55,980 --> 00:21:57,900 So there is some coordination and there is 601 00:21:57,900 --> 00:21:59,980 a moment of leadership here. So this is 602 00:21:59,980 --> 00:22:02,700 where the distinction comes. You gotta understand that 603 00:22:02,700 --> 00:22:04,559 when we say there's no ruler, 604 00:22:04,860 --> 00:22:07,475 there is a leader in Zion. And the 605 00:22:07,475 --> 00:22:07,975 leader 606 00:22:08,355 --> 00:22:10,195 might be the bishop if the bishop is 607 00:22:10,195 --> 00:22:12,434 the one who has all those gifts at 608 00:22:12,434 --> 00:22:14,355 that time. But the leader also might be 609 00:22:14,355 --> 00:22:16,674 the Relief Society president. And in a given 610 00:22:16,674 --> 00:22:19,315 moment where there's a given need, the Relief 611 00:22:19,315 --> 00:22:21,769 Society president might show up, and she might 612 00:22:21,769 --> 00:22:23,470 see how all this works together 613 00:22:23,769 --> 00:22:25,529 and how all this needs to work together 614 00:22:25,529 --> 00:22:27,069 for the benefit of the community. 615 00:22:27,369 --> 00:22:29,609 The bishop might be blind to it. It's 616 00:22:29,609 --> 00:22:31,450 not his job to own that. It's not 617 00:22:31,450 --> 00:22:33,369 his job to control that. It's not even 618 00:22:33,369 --> 00:22:35,595 his job to sanction that. It's his job 619 00:22:35,595 --> 00:22:37,355 to stay out of the way and to 620 00:22:37,355 --> 00:22:40,095 simply recognize when this is happening through 621 00:22:40,394 --> 00:22:42,714 the spirit or if it's happening for some 622 00:22:42,714 --> 00:22:43,454 other motive. 623 00:22:43,835 --> 00:22:45,674 Now it may not even be the Relief 624 00:22:45,674 --> 00:22:47,994 Society president. It may be somebody with no 625 00:22:47,994 --> 00:22:49,055 formal authority. 626 00:22:49,380 --> 00:22:51,380 Now I'm not talking about someone standing up 627 00:22:51,380 --> 00:22:53,380 and saying, hey. We're we're gonna do Sacrament 628 00:22:53,380 --> 00:22:55,460 meetings differently, or I'm gonna change the way 629 00:22:55,460 --> 00:22:56,119 we administer 630 00:22:56,500 --> 00:22:58,820 the ordinances, or I'm not talking about that. 631 00:22:58,820 --> 00:23:00,660 I'm saying there might be a need in 632 00:23:00,660 --> 00:23:01,320 the community. 633 00:23:01,654 --> 00:23:03,894 For example, let's say somebody in your community 634 00:23:03,894 --> 00:23:05,355 gets in a tragic accident, 635 00:23:05,894 --> 00:23:08,694 and they're in surgeries, and their family is 636 00:23:08,694 --> 00:23:10,454 falling apart, and there's all these things. There's 637 00:23:10,454 --> 00:23:11,674 now a need in the community. 638 00:23:12,054 --> 00:23:14,454 We default to the bishop and the Relief 639 00:23:14,454 --> 00:23:17,140 Society president. That is not a godly structure. 640 00:23:17,140 --> 00:23:20,019 That is a hierarchical structure. They may not 641 00:23:20,019 --> 00:23:21,160 be the right person 642 00:23:21,460 --> 00:23:23,539 at the right time with the right gifts, 643 00:23:23,539 --> 00:23:26,119 either to fill the need or to recognize 644 00:23:26,259 --> 00:23:28,340 how the body of Christ could come together 645 00:23:28,340 --> 00:23:30,500 in this moment. That might be someone who's 646 00:23:30,500 --> 00:23:31,240 a neighbor. 647 00:23:31,595 --> 00:23:33,595 Right? That might be someone who simply has 648 00:23:33,595 --> 00:23:35,195 a gift that God has given them for 649 00:23:35,195 --> 00:23:36,734 that moment, and they see things. 650 00:23:37,195 --> 00:23:39,375 What's tragic in our communities 651 00:23:39,835 --> 00:23:42,955 is those people feel it. Those people feel 652 00:23:42,955 --> 00:23:45,134 the moment, and they feel I 653 00:23:45,500 --> 00:23:48,220 want to lead. I am being called to 654 00:23:48,220 --> 00:23:50,539 lead in this moment, but it's not my 655 00:23:50,539 --> 00:23:51,039 place. 656 00:23:51,580 --> 00:23:53,039 And so they pull back. 657 00:23:53,340 --> 00:23:54,320 They defer 658 00:23:54,860 --> 00:23:55,920 to an overworked, 659 00:23:56,460 --> 00:23:56,960 overwhelmed 660 00:23:57,580 --> 00:23:58,080 hierarchy, 661 00:23:58,539 --> 00:24:00,559 and then we get limited responses, 662 00:24:01,315 --> 00:24:03,095 and we sometimes get misguided 663 00:24:03,555 --> 00:24:04,055 responses 664 00:24:04,755 --> 00:24:07,174 instead of the flourishing that could happen 665 00:24:07,555 --> 00:24:09,095 if we allow the gifts 666 00:24:09,474 --> 00:24:11,734 to work according to the mercies of God 667 00:24:12,115 --> 00:24:14,434 with the head. Like, it doesn't always say 668 00:24:14,434 --> 00:24:16,309 there's a head, it says sometimes, right, With 669 00:24:16,309 --> 00:24:18,789 the head showing up and leading, but then 670 00:24:18,789 --> 00:24:21,349 that head would also fall back when that 671 00:24:21,349 --> 00:24:23,750 moment is over. They wouldn't claim authority. They 672 00:24:23,750 --> 00:24:25,210 wouldn't say, hey. Because 673 00:24:25,670 --> 00:24:26,970 because I was captain, 674 00:24:27,509 --> 00:24:30,230 Moroni in this moment, therefore, I should be 675 00:24:30,230 --> 00:24:32,325 captain of the armies forever. It would be 676 00:24:32,325 --> 00:24:34,404 more like, hey. In this moment, this was 677 00:24:34,404 --> 00:24:37,204 Tiankam's moment to shine. This was Lehi's moment 678 00:24:37,204 --> 00:24:39,605 to shine. This was more Moroni's moment to 679 00:24:39,605 --> 00:24:42,005 shine. And when it's no longer my moment, 680 00:24:42,005 --> 00:24:44,940 I fall back. Right? And the head would 681 00:24:44,940 --> 00:24:47,099 help without all that. And then there's a 682 00:24:47,099 --> 00:24:48,779 bishop because we do have a church, and 683 00:24:48,779 --> 00:24:50,539 we do have some structure in the church. 684 00:24:50,539 --> 00:24:52,779 There's a bishop that can say with some 685 00:24:52,779 --> 00:24:55,900 authority, hey. This feels good. This feels right. 686 00:24:55,900 --> 00:24:58,220 Now what is necessary for a bishop to 687 00:24:58,220 --> 00:25:00,664 be able to do that? He must be 688 00:25:00,664 --> 00:25:01,964 stripped of ego. 689 00:25:02,585 --> 00:25:04,045 He must be stripped 690 00:25:04,424 --> 00:25:05,644 of the Orthodox 691 00:25:05,945 --> 00:25:06,445 interpretation. 692 00:25:07,144 --> 00:25:08,825 He must be stripped of the need to 693 00:25:08,825 --> 00:25:09,325 control, 694 00:25:09,704 --> 00:25:11,964 to maintain order, and to maintain appearances. 695 00:25:12,470 --> 00:25:14,089 And in our current environment, 696 00:25:14,390 --> 00:25:18,009 in any church environment or any business environment, 697 00:25:18,390 --> 00:25:19,369 that is incredibly 698 00:25:19,829 --> 00:25:20,329 difficult 699 00:25:20,869 --> 00:25:23,609 because all of those forces are leaning in 700 00:25:23,750 --> 00:25:26,070 in on him and saying, you have to 701 00:25:26,070 --> 00:25:26,970 have the answer. 702 00:25:27,315 --> 00:25:29,315 You need to be the expert. You have 703 00:25:29,315 --> 00:25:31,315 to have all of this under control. And 704 00:25:31,315 --> 00:25:33,714 if you don't, there is a danger to 705 00:25:33,714 --> 00:25:36,355 you, and the system might come down and 706 00:25:36,355 --> 00:25:37,494 crack down on you. 707 00:25:38,115 --> 00:25:39,474 A few thoughts came to mind, Dan, as 708 00:25:39,474 --> 00:25:41,460 you were talking there of you know, I'm 709 00:25:41,460 --> 00:25:43,700 just thinking back to, you know, in the 710 00:25:43,700 --> 00:25:45,539 old testament times where the the tribe of 711 00:25:45,539 --> 00:25:48,099 Levi, right, were the priesthood holders. And it 712 00:25:48,099 --> 00:25:49,779 wasn't this feeling of, like, oh, the tribe 713 00:25:49,779 --> 00:25:52,099 of Levi. Wow. They're like the leaders. Right? 714 00:25:52,099 --> 00:25:54,019 Like, they're the the hierarchy. We have to 715 00:25:54,019 --> 00:25:55,779 yield everything they say. No. They had a 716 00:25:55,779 --> 00:25:57,644 role and gifts, like you said, 717 00:25:58,105 --> 00:25:59,005 to facilitate 718 00:25:59,625 --> 00:26:01,945 They they had a role institutionally to facilitate 719 00:26:01,945 --> 00:26:02,605 the ordinances 720 00:26:03,384 --> 00:26:06,045 of the priesthood. Yeah. But they weren't necessarily 721 00:26:06,105 --> 00:26:08,105 looked at as like, oh, that means therefore 722 00:26:08,105 --> 00:26:10,664 you should be the sole leaders of the 723 00:26:10,664 --> 00:26:13,200 community. Yeah. So I my point is you're 724 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:14,960 not dunking on priesthood keys here or anything. 725 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:16,500 They they have a role and a purpose 726 00:26:16,799 --> 00:26:19,440 primarily with the ordinances and the the saving, 727 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,099 you know, ordinances and salvations through the priesthood. 728 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,500 Exactly. So there's a there's the ecclesiastical 729 00:26:24,799 --> 00:26:26,339 work to be done, which is temples, 730 00:26:26,835 --> 00:26:30,115 ordinances, covenants. Right? That's critical work that the 731 00:26:30,115 --> 00:26:32,434 church is steward of. There's a separate work, 732 00:26:32,434 --> 00:26:34,755 which is building communities that are worthy of 733 00:26:34,755 --> 00:26:37,075 the presence of Jesus Christ. And that work 734 00:26:37,075 --> 00:26:38,595 is not limited to the Church of Jesus 735 00:26:38,595 --> 00:26:40,034 Christ of Latter day Saints, and it's not 736 00:26:40,034 --> 00:26:42,009 even limited to the Church of Christ. It 737 00:26:42,009 --> 00:26:43,609 is definitely all part of the kingdom of 738 00:26:43,609 --> 00:26:45,529 God, but it's not limited to faith based 739 00:26:45,529 --> 00:26:46,029 institutions. 740 00:26:46,650 --> 00:26:48,269 Mhmm. Right? That work is happening 741 00:26:48,809 --> 00:26:51,130 in your soccer team with your you know, 742 00:26:51,130 --> 00:26:52,410 if you're a coach of a soccer team 743 00:26:52,410 --> 00:26:54,029 or if you're in a class in school 744 00:26:54,265 --> 00:26:56,765 or if you're a manager at work or 745 00:26:56,825 --> 00:26:59,224 principal of whatever or a department chair at 746 00:26:59,224 --> 00:26:59,804 a university, 747 00:27:00,424 --> 00:27:03,644 that is godly work where you're building communities 748 00:27:03,704 --> 00:27:06,025 that are worthy of the presence of Jesus 749 00:27:06,025 --> 00:27:06,525 Christ, 750 00:27:06,904 --> 00:27:09,384 and that's different from ecclesiastical work. Now the 751 00:27:09,384 --> 00:27:11,839 thing is is any work we know is 752 00:27:11,839 --> 00:27:12,819 gonna be enhanced, 753 00:27:13,279 --> 00:27:15,299 and the efficiency and the productivity 754 00:27:15,599 --> 00:27:17,919 and the impact of that work is going 755 00:27:17,919 --> 00:27:18,899 to be dramatically 756 00:27:19,599 --> 00:27:20,099 transformed 757 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:21,539 if it's done 758 00:27:21,839 --> 00:27:22,740 with a community 759 00:27:23,174 --> 00:27:25,914 that's formed on the basis of a Zion 760 00:27:26,295 --> 00:27:29,174 principle, the Zion community. So even your business 761 00:27:29,174 --> 00:27:31,255 team, if it's operating one heart and one 762 00:27:31,255 --> 00:27:33,495 mind with principles of justice and love and 763 00:27:33,495 --> 00:27:33,995 peacemaking 764 00:27:34,615 --> 00:27:36,630 and unity and all those things, it's gonna 765 00:27:36,630 --> 00:27:39,609 help your business activities tremendously. Well, likewise, 766 00:27:39,990 --> 00:27:42,230 the work of the church with covenants and 767 00:27:42,230 --> 00:27:45,029 priesthood and and ordinances and temples and, you 768 00:27:45,029 --> 00:27:47,269 know, family history and all that stuff, that 769 00:27:47,269 --> 00:27:48,809 work is gonna be dramatically 770 00:27:49,855 --> 00:27:53,154 transformed if it's done by those who are 771 00:27:53,214 --> 00:27:55,375 one heart and one mind. So there is 772 00:27:55,375 --> 00:27:57,454 an important aspect of this is, like, we 773 00:27:57,454 --> 00:27:58,515 as leaders 774 00:27:58,894 --> 00:28:02,034 leaders, not appointed leaders, but anointed leaders. 775 00:28:02,390 --> 00:28:05,210 K? Appointed means the hierarchy puts you there. 776 00:28:05,430 --> 00:28:08,809 Anointed means God called you to do that. 777 00:28:08,870 --> 00:28:10,549 So if God called you to be a 778 00:28:10,549 --> 00:28:12,950 leader and a builder of community, but you're 779 00:28:12,950 --> 00:28:16,650 not currently in the hierarchy of the institution, 780 00:28:17,625 --> 00:28:19,785 you still are called to build community. God 781 00:28:19,785 --> 00:28:21,244 put that on your heart. 782 00:28:21,705 --> 00:28:22,525 Now the system 783 00:28:23,065 --> 00:28:25,144 says, oh, no. No. No. No. No. We 784 00:28:25,144 --> 00:28:27,484 do not want anybody who is not sanctioned 785 00:28:27,545 --> 00:28:28,365 by the system 786 00:28:28,664 --> 00:28:30,205 to have any kind of license 787 00:28:30,710 --> 00:28:32,630 to do any kind of leadership or community 788 00:28:32,630 --> 00:28:35,049 building. And so it starts to marginalize 789 00:28:35,430 --> 00:28:37,430 you and make you feel like you're a 790 00:28:37,430 --> 00:28:40,470 problem. You're a threat. You're going to create 791 00:28:40,470 --> 00:28:42,890 disorder. You're going to violate some 792 00:28:43,190 --> 00:28:45,964 sacred covenant. That is not God talking to 793 00:28:45,964 --> 00:28:48,044 you. That is not even really if those 794 00:28:48,044 --> 00:28:49,565 are words coming out of people's mouths, it's 795 00:28:49,565 --> 00:28:51,964 not even really their words. That is the 796 00:28:51,964 --> 00:28:53,664 culture. That is the ideology. 797 00:28:54,284 --> 00:28:55,664 That is not the gospel. 798 00:28:55,964 --> 00:28:57,984 That is being put on you to marginalize 799 00:28:58,125 --> 00:28:58,625 you, 800 00:28:58,980 --> 00:28:59,799 to fragment 801 00:29:00,179 --> 00:29:02,920 the community, and to maintain the status quo. 802 00:29:03,059 --> 00:29:05,240 But this institution here, 803 00:29:05,619 --> 00:29:07,940 this holy institution called the Church of Jesus 804 00:29:07,940 --> 00:29:10,500 Christ of Latter day Saints, it needs the 805 00:29:10,500 --> 00:29:13,375 Zion builders. It needs the change makers so 806 00:29:13,375 --> 00:29:15,555 that this work can truly be transformed. 807 00:29:16,095 --> 00:29:18,335 Yeah. That's really what we've discovered through Leading 808 00:29:18,335 --> 00:29:20,494 Saints is those individuals who feel that aims 809 00:29:20,494 --> 00:29:22,414 to to do more, to step up, and, 810 00:29:22,815 --> 00:29:24,575 contribute. Right? Let me give you just Yeah. 811 00:29:24,575 --> 00:29:26,654 Go ahead. People because, again, what I just 812 00:29:26,654 --> 00:29:28,409 said, right, I guarantee you, there are people 813 00:29:28,409 --> 00:29:30,409 who hear that and they're instantly like, woah, 814 00:29:30,409 --> 00:29:32,649 this is, this is pushing the lines. We 815 00:29:32,649 --> 00:29:34,009 don't do that in the church. We have 816 00:29:34,009 --> 00:29:36,750 order, we have structure, we have, you know, 817 00:29:36,890 --> 00:29:39,450 protocols and yeah, we do. So one of 818 00:29:39,450 --> 00:29:42,329 my first scriptural examples that really caught my 819 00:29:42,329 --> 00:29:43,865 breath, this was like 820 00:29:44,644 --> 00:29:46,644 eight, ten years ago. Now I was part 821 00:29:46,644 --> 00:29:49,365 of, I was a stake clerk. So, I 822 00:29:49,365 --> 00:29:51,525 was, you know, part of a stake presidency, 823 00:29:51,525 --> 00:29:53,045 but I was meeting with these guys on 824 00:29:53,045 --> 00:29:55,384 a regular basis. And we had a transformational 825 00:29:55,684 --> 00:29:57,704 stake president who was trying to empower 826 00:29:58,069 --> 00:29:59,690 his high councilors to 827 00:30:00,069 --> 00:30:00,569 basically 828 00:30:01,190 --> 00:30:02,970 level up, like, 10 levels 829 00:30:03,269 --> 00:30:05,369 and think of themselves more like 830 00:30:05,750 --> 00:30:07,210 peers to the stake presidency 831 00:30:07,829 --> 00:30:08,650 and true 832 00:30:09,029 --> 00:30:11,369 agents of the stake presidency, not functionaries, 833 00:30:11,670 --> 00:30:13,964 not guys who have assignments to carry out, 834 00:30:14,204 --> 00:30:15,884 but he was trying to help them see 835 00:30:15,884 --> 00:30:18,044 themselves. And the phrasing was to be the 836 00:30:18,044 --> 00:30:20,044 eyes, the ears, and the mouth of the 837 00:30:20,044 --> 00:30:20,784 stake presidency, 838 00:30:21,325 --> 00:30:23,964 to hear as they hear, to see as 839 00:30:23,964 --> 00:30:26,525 they see, and to speak as they speak. 840 00:30:26,525 --> 00:30:27,964 And the things he was asking them to 841 00:30:27,964 --> 00:30:28,704 do were 842 00:30:29,069 --> 00:30:30,909 unheard of, you know, the kind of things 843 00:30:30,909 --> 00:30:33,390 he was putting on them. And so he 844 00:30:33,390 --> 00:30:35,490 was, you know, we were in these conversations 845 00:30:35,630 --> 00:30:37,869 frequently as a state presidency. And as I 846 00:30:37,869 --> 00:30:40,829 was searching the scriptures for justification of this 847 00:30:40,829 --> 00:30:41,329 model, 848 00:30:41,630 --> 00:30:43,390 the Lord just led me to one. And 849 00:30:43,390 --> 00:30:44,369 it was Moses. 850 00:30:44,755 --> 00:30:46,194 And again, it's been a long time since 851 00:30:46,194 --> 00:30:47,394 I've read it, so I'm going to butcher 852 00:30:47,394 --> 00:30:48,775 this. But it's Moses, 853 00:30:49,154 --> 00:30:51,794 and they're out, I think. So here's what's 854 00:30:51,794 --> 00:30:53,875 happening. He's trying he's trying to get the 855 00:30:53,875 --> 00:30:54,375 elders 856 00:30:54,835 --> 00:30:55,575 to approach 857 00:30:55,954 --> 00:30:58,194 God at the mountain or something along those 858 00:30:58,194 --> 00:31:00,434 lines. And so they're away from the camp, 859 00:31:00,434 --> 00:31:01,929 and and they're doing this work, and it's 860 00:31:01,929 --> 00:31:03,710 not going well, and he's really frustrated. 861 00:31:04,250 --> 00:31:06,990 And then these two messengers come running up, 862 00:31:07,049 --> 00:31:08,589 and they're tattle tellers 863 00:31:08,970 --> 00:31:10,730 or what I call in in my work, 864 00:31:10,730 --> 00:31:12,409 I call them the guardians. They're the guardians 865 00:31:12,409 --> 00:31:14,545 of the status quo. And they come running 866 00:31:14,545 --> 00:31:16,644 up to Moses, and they say, Moses, Moses. 867 00:31:17,105 --> 00:31:19,744 These two guys that got left behind, they're 868 00:31:19,744 --> 00:31:20,244 prophesying 869 00:31:20,545 --> 00:31:23,585 in the camp. They're, like, literally getting words 870 00:31:23,585 --> 00:31:25,985 from God and giving them to the people 871 00:31:25,985 --> 00:31:27,525 as though they are prophets. 872 00:31:28,140 --> 00:31:30,460 And Joshua, who's number two in command, who 873 00:31:30,460 --> 00:31:32,059 ends up becoming a great leader and a 874 00:31:32,059 --> 00:31:34,299 great prophet for the church, he has the 875 00:31:34,299 --> 00:31:35,599 institutional response. 876 00:31:35,900 --> 00:31:38,880 He immediately says to Moses, my Lord 877 00:31:39,259 --> 00:31:42,539 forbid them. So he appeals to Moses's sense 878 00:31:42,539 --> 00:31:43,359 of status 879 00:31:43,894 --> 00:31:44,714 and hierarchy. 880 00:31:45,095 --> 00:31:47,654 He says, my lord in other words, I'm 881 00:31:47,654 --> 00:31:49,994 bowing to the throne. I'm kissing the ring. 882 00:31:50,054 --> 00:31:51,974 I'm playing the part that I'm supposed to 883 00:31:51,974 --> 00:31:54,855 play. He says, my lord forbid them. And 884 00:31:54,855 --> 00:31:56,714 Moses's response is, 885 00:31:57,190 --> 00:31:58,490 why would I forbid them? 886 00:31:58,950 --> 00:32:01,849 Would to God that all the Lord's people 887 00:32:02,150 --> 00:32:04,570 would be prophets or something to that effect. 888 00:32:04,950 --> 00:32:07,509 In other words, Moses isn't afraid of the 889 00:32:07,509 --> 00:32:09,930 fact that someone was given a gift, 890 00:32:10,265 --> 00:32:12,184 and he was discerning. He was playing that 891 00:32:12,184 --> 00:32:13,625 role that the Lord talks about in D 892 00:32:13,625 --> 00:32:14,684 and C 46. 893 00:32:14,745 --> 00:32:15,644 He was discerning 894 00:32:16,105 --> 00:32:18,205 and saying, no. No. No. This was godly. 895 00:32:18,265 --> 00:32:20,105 I wasn't there. I didn't see it, but 896 00:32:20,105 --> 00:32:21,965 the spirit is telling me this is good. 897 00:32:22,025 --> 00:32:24,184 Despite the fact that I have the guardians, 898 00:32:24,184 --> 00:32:24,845 the tattletallers, 899 00:32:25,589 --> 00:32:27,990 coming to complain, they probably stirred up the 900 00:32:27,990 --> 00:32:30,309 people at the camp as well. Despite the 901 00:32:30,309 --> 00:32:31,690 fact that I have my lieutenant 902 00:32:31,990 --> 00:32:34,730 who's appealing to hierarchy and structure and status, 903 00:32:35,269 --> 00:32:37,589 Moses plays the role that God gave him. 904 00:32:37,589 --> 00:32:39,384 He says, no. No. This is good. And 905 00:32:39,384 --> 00:32:42,065 would to god that all the people would 906 00:32:42,065 --> 00:32:43,444 be prophets. K? 907 00:32:43,744 --> 00:32:46,144 Now you're gonna counterbalance that with the very 908 00:32:46,144 --> 00:32:48,565 next chapter. I think this is in Deuteronomy. 909 00:32:49,184 --> 00:32:50,484 The very next chapter, 910 00:32:50,865 --> 00:32:53,825 you've got Aaron and Miriam, Moses's brother and 911 00:32:53,825 --> 00:32:54,325 sister, 912 00:32:54,649 --> 00:32:57,369 who get a little bit frustrated that Moses 913 00:32:57,369 --> 00:32:59,690 is having all the fun. And, you know, 914 00:32:59,690 --> 00:33:02,009 they kinda wanna be prophets, and they kinda 915 00:33:02,009 --> 00:33:04,649 wanna do the thing too. And so they 916 00:33:04,649 --> 00:33:07,069 start to step out, and they are immediately 917 00:33:07,289 --> 00:33:09,309 chastised by the Lord. And 918 00:33:09,634 --> 00:33:12,035 I forget what it was. Was Miriam made 919 00:33:12,035 --> 00:33:14,355 a leper? She was given leprosy or something. 920 00:33:14,355 --> 00:33:16,674 There was something that happened as, like, this 921 00:33:16,674 --> 00:33:19,634 punishment and the symbol. And the Lord basically 922 00:33:19,634 --> 00:33:21,414 says, don't ever forget 923 00:33:21,990 --> 00:33:23,849 that I have called one prophet. 924 00:33:24,150 --> 00:33:25,990 And so, I love that because here you've 925 00:33:25,990 --> 00:33:28,150 got Moses saying, would to God that all 926 00:33:28,150 --> 00:33:30,150 the people were prophets. And then you've got 927 00:33:30,150 --> 00:33:32,250 the very next chapter, the Lord through Moses, 928 00:33:32,470 --> 00:33:34,549 ostensibly, it doesn't really say, but we assume 929 00:33:34,549 --> 00:33:36,725 this comes through Moses. The Lord saying through 930 00:33:36,725 --> 00:33:38,745 Moses, there's only one prophet. 931 00:33:39,125 --> 00:33:41,684 And so, yes, there's one prophet with a 932 00:33:41,684 --> 00:33:44,085 big P, a capital P, but would to 933 00:33:44,085 --> 00:33:46,325 God that we were all prophets, meaning the 934 00:33:46,325 --> 00:33:48,559 Lord has given us all gifts and we 935 00:33:48,559 --> 00:33:51,599 were all exercising them freely according to the 936 00:33:51,599 --> 00:33:54,079 mercies of God and to suited to the 937 00:33:54,079 --> 00:33:55,220 needs of his children, 938 00:33:55,759 --> 00:33:58,259 but with one in the institution, 939 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,359 in the church called to be that head, 940 00:34:01,359 --> 00:34:03,674 that person to say, is this of God 941 00:34:03,674 --> 00:34:05,914 or not? With the tattletaleers, he said, hey. 942 00:34:05,914 --> 00:34:07,674 This is from God. With his own brother 943 00:34:07,674 --> 00:34:09,755 and sister, he said, hey. This is not 944 00:34:09,755 --> 00:34:12,795 coming from God. Your motives aren't pure. Yeah. 945 00:34:12,795 --> 00:34:14,234 I'd think of the parallels of doctrine and 946 00:34:14,234 --> 00:34:16,795 comers from David Whitmer receiving revelation and that 947 00:34:16,795 --> 00:34:19,179 kind of being booted, but also Oliver Cowdery 948 00:34:19,179 --> 00:34:21,260 wanted to be involved in the translation process. 949 00:34:21,260 --> 00:34:23,660 Like, there's these moments of, like, the invitation 950 00:34:23,660 --> 00:34:25,420 to step in and also, hey, there's a 951 00:34:25,420 --> 00:34:27,340 boundary here, just so you know. Right? We 952 00:34:27,340 --> 00:34:29,119 do we do have prophets for a reason. 953 00:34:29,260 --> 00:34:30,780 Ryan, you had asked a question. I went 954 00:34:30,780 --> 00:34:31,519 on a long, 955 00:34:32,125 --> 00:34:33,265 circuitous answer. 956 00:34:33,565 --> 00:34:35,965 I'm curious how that landed with you. Yeah. 957 00:34:35,965 --> 00:34:37,905 So, I mean, what I heard from that 958 00:34:38,125 --> 00:34:40,045 or what I would take away is a 959 00:34:40,045 --> 00:34:40,864 couple thing. 960 00:34:41,485 --> 00:34:43,744 One, I guess, is the importance of 961 00:34:44,125 --> 00:34:46,045 figuring out what my own gifts are and 962 00:34:46,045 --> 00:34:46,945 helping others 963 00:34:48,099 --> 00:34:48,599 understand 964 00:34:48,980 --> 00:34:51,159 and leverage or not leverage, 965 00:34:51,460 --> 00:34:51,960 but 966 00:34:52,579 --> 00:34:54,119 use their gifts. 967 00:34:54,579 --> 00:34:56,199 And then I think as a leader, 968 00:34:56,659 --> 00:34:58,359 if I'm in a position of leadership, 969 00:34:59,059 --> 00:35:00,599 getting away from the ego, 970 00:35:01,065 --> 00:35:02,445 not having any ego. 971 00:35:02,905 --> 00:35:04,425 What comes to mind a little bit is 972 00:35:04,425 --> 00:35:06,204 this idea that we hear sometimes 973 00:35:06,984 --> 00:35:09,704 of revelation being scattered among us, I guess 974 00:35:09,704 --> 00:35:11,964 realizing that the Lord can work through 975 00:35:12,425 --> 00:35:14,664 everybody with their gifts. And so then as 976 00:35:14,664 --> 00:35:16,500 a leader, I'm I don't have the ego. 977 00:35:16,500 --> 00:35:18,440 I'm helping others identify 978 00:35:19,300 --> 00:35:20,519 and use their gifts 979 00:35:21,219 --> 00:35:21,719 and, 980 00:35:22,099 --> 00:35:23,320 I guess, just discerning 981 00:35:24,019 --> 00:35:26,280 if it's of god or not. 982 00:35:26,900 --> 00:35:28,980 Yeah. And I would say this is in 983 00:35:28,980 --> 00:35:31,715 my world. I make a very clear distinction 984 00:35:31,775 --> 00:35:33,875 between what we mean when we say leader. 985 00:35:34,095 --> 00:35:37,055 A leader is someone who is leading. They're 986 00:35:37,055 --> 00:35:38,595 someone who's making change. 987 00:35:38,974 --> 00:35:40,414 They may or may not have a formal 988 00:35:40,414 --> 00:35:40,914 appointment 989 00:35:41,295 --> 00:35:43,474 within the system, within the organization. 990 00:35:44,159 --> 00:35:46,079 A person who has that appointment may or 991 00:35:46,079 --> 00:35:48,079 may not be leading. It depends on what's 992 00:35:48,079 --> 00:35:50,239 going on. Right? So we would be much 993 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:52,719 better off saying that a bishop has an 994 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:53,219 ecclesiastical 995 00:35:53,599 --> 00:35:56,000 role, which is actually quite limited. It's to 996 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,474 be a judge in Israel. That's the bishop's 997 00:35:58,615 --> 00:35:59,115 ecclesiastical 998 00:35:59,494 --> 00:36:00,474 eternal function. 999 00:36:00,775 --> 00:36:01,595 But organizationally, 1000 00:36:02,295 --> 00:36:04,635 we have decided to give him also 1001 00:36:04,934 --> 00:36:06,394 a management function. 1002 00:36:06,695 --> 00:36:08,535 So a bishop is a director of a 1003 00:36:08,535 --> 00:36:10,055 ward. He's a manager of a ward. He's 1004 00:36:10,055 --> 00:36:12,099 an administrator of a ward. He is not 1005 00:36:12,099 --> 00:36:14,420 inherently a leader of award. He may or 1006 00:36:14,420 --> 00:36:17,380 may not have any leadership gift at all. 1007 00:36:17,380 --> 00:36:19,460 He may not have any leadership talent at 1008 00:36:19,460 --> 00:36:21,219 all, or he may have it in times 1009 00:36:21,219 --> 00:36:22,739 and in seasons and in places and in 1010 00:36:22,739 --> 00:36:23,239 moments. 1011 00:36:23,539 --> 00:36:24,519 A wise bishop 1012 00:36:24,945 --> 00:36:26,864 would recognize that his role, number one, is 1013 00:36:26,864 --> 00:36:28,005 to be the judge in Israel 1014 00:36:28,305 --> 00:36:31,204 to do that role well. And number two, 1015 00:36:31,425 --> 00:36:33,744 as a manager, to not manage according to 1016 00:36:33,744 --> 00:36:34,405 the hierarchies 1017 00:36:34,785 --> 00:36:37,500 that men have created and glorified, 1018 00:36:38,039 --> 00:36:40,680 but to manage according to the pattern that 1019 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:42,519 the Lord has set, which is to be 1020 00:36:42,519 --> 00:36:43,180 a discerner. 1021 00:36:43,559 --> 00:36:45,400 And I'll use this word because this is 1022 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:46,140 more contemporary. 1023 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,059 His job is to make space. 1024 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:50,275 His job is to make space for the 1025 00:36:50,275 --> 00:36:52,114 gifts to rise and to flourish. And the 1026 00:36:52,114 --> 00:36:55,074 immediate answer is always, wasn't that anarchy? Isn't 1027 00:36:55,074 --> 00:36:57,235 that messy? And the answer to that is 1028 00:36:57,235 --> 00:36:58,934 yes. But God 1029 00:36:59,394 --> 00:37:01,574 likes the mess. That's his approach. 1030 00:37:01,954 --> 00:37:04,670 It's so not our approach, but he likes 1031 00:37:04,670 --> 00:37:06,530 the mess. Why? Because we are creating. 1032 00:37:06,910 --> 00:37:09,070 We are growing. We are not trying to 1033 00:37:09,070 --> 00:37:12,030 perform. That's the big mistake that most our 1034 00:37:12,030 --> 00:37:14,190 our managers in the church and in any 1035 00:37:14,190 --> 00:37:17,410 organization make is they're worried about the performance, 1036 00:37:18,195 --> 00:37:19,414 hitting the KPIs, 1037 00:37:20,114 --> 00:37:22,434 performing the script, making the soccer meeting look 1038 00:37:22,434 --> 00:37:24,215 like the way it's supposed to look. 1039 00:37:24,515 --> 00:37:26,594 And because they're so worried about the performance 1040 00:37:26,594 --> 00:37:28,994 and the pressure that comes with that, they 1041 00:37:28,994 --> 00:37:30,775 don't make space for the mess. 1042 00:37:31,139 --> 00:37:32,519 Just read the new Testament, 1043 00:37:32,900 --> 00:37:33,880 the four gospels. 1044 00:37:34,420 --> 00:37:37,219 Jesus is basically just stirring up mess left 1045 00:37:37,219 --> 00:37:39,619 and right. And when people ask him for 1046 00:37:39,619 --> 00:37:41,779 order, he says, no, not going to be 1047 00:37:41,779 --> 00:37:43,699 order, not going to give it to you. 1048 00:37:43,699 --> 00:37:45,699 Just live with the mess and lean into 1049 00:37:45,699 --> 00:37:48,014 it and grow through it. And he's basically 1050 00:37:48,155 --> 00:37:50,414 saying, I've given each of you a gift, 1051 00:37:50,875 --> 00:37:51,375 and 1052 00:37:51,675 --> 00:37:53,434 it will come out in the right moment 1053 00:37:53,434 --> 00:37:55,594 and in the right ways. Yeah. That makes 1054 00:37:55,594 --> 00:37:56,094 sense. 1055 00:37:56,394 --> 00:37:58,554 Awesome. Well, Dan, what are we missing? Anything 1056 00:37:58,554 --> 00:38:00,875 else? And, again, these articles, you're touching on 1057 00:38:00,875 --> 00:38:01,775 various principles, 1058 00:38:02,409 --> 00:38:04,250 you know, in these articles, but, I mean, 1059 00:38:04,250 --> 00:38:06,730 this is a good broad foundation of of 1060 00:38:06,730 --> 00:38:08,409 what you're trying to get at is this 1061 00:38:08,409 --> 00:38:10,889 this shift of mindset. Right? Yeah. I would 1062 00:38:10,889 --> 00:38:12,409 say, you know, someday there will be a 1063 00:38:12,409 --> 00:38:14,170 book. It'll probably be in a couple years 1064 00:38:14,170 --> 00:38:15,769 because I'm working on a different book right 1065 00:38:15,769 --> 00:38:18,465 now. There'll be two two different books, but 1066 00:38:18,465 --> 00:38:20,385 the one will be this, the stuff I'm 1067 00:38:20,385 --> 00:38:23,184 working on right now, which won't necessarily be 1068 00:38:23,184 --> 00:38:24,005 like a cohesive, 1069 00:38:24,465 --> 00:38:26,945 you know, argument that's building. It'll just be 1070 00:38:26,945 --> 00:38:29,184 more of like a, Hey, here's some scriptural 1071 00:38:29,184 --> 00:38:29,684 language 1072 00:38:30,144 --> 00:38:30,805 that clearly 1073 00:38:31,469 --> 00:38:33,550 shows and evidences a different kind of Zion 1074 00:38:33,550 --> 00:38:34,929 and a different kind of leadership 1075 00:38:35,389 --> 00:38:37,010 than what we are comfortable 1076 00:38:37,309 --> 00:38:39,170 with right now in our present day 1077 00:38:39,469 --> 00:38:39,969 construction 1078 00:38:40,429 --> 00:38:42,130 of the way we do church. 1079 00:38:42,590 --> 00:38:43,409 In the meantime, 1080 00:38:43,775 --> 00:38:45,295 if you want to follow it, if this 1081 00:38:45,295 --> 00:38:46,815 kind of stuff gets you guys, you know, 1082 00:38:46,815 --> 00:38:49,934 Ryan, Marty, anyone else who's listening, I'm putting 1083 00:38:49,934 --> 00:38:52,335 these on Substack right now. So if you 1084 00:38:52,335 --> 00:38:55,074 want to go to danduckworth.substack.com, 1085 00:38:55,295 --> 00:38:57,880 I've already loaded like probably 20 of them 1086 00:38:57,880 --> 00:38:59,159 in there, and I've got another 10 that 1087 00:38:59,159 --> 00:39:00,440 are already written that I just need to 1088 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,199 load in there. And then, Kurt, to your 1089 00:39:02,199 --> 00:39:04,199 earlier question, yeah, it's just as I'm as 1090 00:39:04,199 --> 00:39:06,539 I'm going through the come follow me, and 1091 00:39:06,599 --> 00:39:09,079 I'm hitting these. I'm spending time thinking it 1092 00:39:09,079 --> 00:39:11,065 through and working it through, and then I'm 1093 00:39:11,065 --> 00:39:12,985 writing these essays and I'm putting them up 1094 00:39:12,985 --> 00:39:13,724 there. And 1095 00:39:14,025 --> 00:39:15,864 the immediate purpose is just, I want to 1096 00:39:15,864 --> 00:39:18,105 have this language. Like we just had this 1097 00:39:18,105 --> 00:39:18,605 conversation 1098 00:39:18,985 --> 00:39:20,664 in the context of the scriptures of the 1099 00:39:20,664 --> 00:39:22,684 Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. 1100 00:39:23,065 --> 00:39:25,619 And if you want that, go read those. 1101 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:27,280 And you don't necessarily have to see it 1102 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,519 exactly the way that I do, but at 1103 00:39:29,519 --> 00:39:32,019 least every single scripture that I've highlighted 1104 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:35,119 should be something that you should wrestle with. 1105 00:39:35,119 --> 00:39:37,679 And you should say, wow, what's this really 1106 00:39:37,679 --> 00:39:39,944 talking about here? For example, 1107 00:39:40,324 --> 00:39:41,464 when it says 1108 00:39:41,844 --> 00:39:43,284 oh, let me just give you an example 1109 00:39:43,284 --> 00:39:45,844 real quick. Okay. When it says that there 1110 00:39:45,844 --> 00:39:48,484 shall be glory and terror in Zion, what 1111 00:39:48,484 --> 00:39:50,824 does that mean? If you're building a community 1112 00:39:51,140 --> 00:39:53,539 that's trying to be Zion, what makes their 1113 00:39:53,539 --> 00:39:55,460 terror there? Or it says in another scripture 1114 00:39:55,460 --> 00:39:57,640 that the inhabitants of Zion will be terrible. 1115 00:39:57,780 --> 00:39:59,140 What does that mean? I mean, I'll tell 1116 00:39:59,140 --> 00:40:00,420 you what I think it means in a 1117 00:40:00,420 --> 00:40:01,239 different conversation, 1118 00:40:01,539 --> 00:40:03,059 but what do you think it means? Because 1119 00:40:03,059 --> 00:40:05,684 if you're building a community that isn't terrible, 1120 00:40:05,684 --> 00:40:08,105 then you haven't built Zion because God says 1121 00:40:08,325 --> 00:40:09,144 that the inhabitants 1122 00:40:09,445 --> 00:40:11,765 will be terrible or terrifying is probably the 1123 00:40:11,765 --> 00:40:14,184 word that that we would use today. 1124 00:40:14,485 --> 00:40:16,005 And I can't find my other posts, so 1125 00:40:16,005 --> 00:40:17,204 I I can't run you through a couple 1126 00:40:17,204 --> 00:40:18,989 of the titles, but just the idea that 1127 00:40:18,989 --> 00:40:21,390 there's no king, there's no ruler, the idea 1128 00:40:21,390 --> 00:40:23,630 that, you know, one you already posted Kurt 1129 00:40:23,630 --> 00:40:25,550 was which the Lord says, I'm already among 1130 00:40:25,550 --> 00:40:28,030 you. You just can't see me. Yeah. Right? 1131 00:40:28,030 --> 00:40:30,429 So what does that mean that we're building 1132 00:40:30,429 --> 00:40:32,210 communities that are ignorant 1133 00:40:32,724 --> 00:40:34,425 of the presence of Jesus Christ? 1134 00:40:34,964 --> 00:40:37,045 And how do you build a community that's 1135 00:40:37,045 --> 00:40:38,964 aware of it? Well, it's not looking for 1136 00:40:38,964 --> 00:40:42,324 him on paintings on temple walls. It's looking 1137 00:40:42,324 --> 00:40:44,085 for him embodied. He already gave us that 1138 00:40:44,085 --> 00:40:46,005 scripture, right? Where he says, I was among 1139 00:40:46,005 --> 00:40:47,980 you and you saw me not. I was 1140 00:40:48,119 --> 00:40:49,559 sick and you didn't come to me. I 1141 00:40:49,559 --> 00:40:50,059 was, 1142 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:51,960 lonely and you didn't invite me in. I 1143 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:53,559 was in prison and you didn't visit me. 1144 00:40:53,559 --> 00:40:55,480 Right? Well, are we building communities that are 1145 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,480 doing that? And how are we doing that? 1146 00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:01,735 Because it's not Zion yet. So anyway, danduckworth.substack.com 1147 00:41:01,735 --> 00:41:03,414 if you wanna check those out and give 1148 00:41:03,414 --> 00:41:05,574 me feedback and conversation like this. I love 1149 00:41:05,574 --> 00:41:07,255 it. And just as we wrap up, then 1150 00:41:07,255 --> 00:41:09,094 I'm just thinking of the person, like, where 1151 00:41:09,094 --> 00:41:10,614 do I start with all this? Where's the 1152 00:41:10,614 --> 00:41:12,695 application? Or what if I get resistance from 1153 00:41:12,695 --> 00:41:14,929 the hierarchy? Right? Or my, you know or 1154 00:41:14,929 --> 00:41:16,369 they listen to this, Dan, this could never 1155 00:41:16,369 --> 00:41:17,569 happen to my ward, and I can give 1156 00:41:17,569 --> 00:41:19,730 you 10 reasons why or whatever. Like, you 1157 00:41:19,730 --> 00:41:22,069 know, we feel so powerless sometimes in our 1158 00:41:22,210 --> 00:41:24,609 informal roles as leaders. Yeah. Well, I'll give 1159 00:41:24,609 --> 00:41:26,929 you one straight from doctrine and covenants again. 1160 00:41:26,929 --> 00:41:28,769 This one just kinda, like, blew my mind 1161 00:41:28,769 --> 00:41:30,545 when I saw this. When the Lord says 1162 00:41:30,764 --> 00:41:32,925 something to the effect of, don't let the 1163 00:41:32,925 --> 00:41:34,625 world know what you're doing right now. 1164 00:41:34,925 --> 00:41:38,045 And the subversive nature of that was just 1165 00:41:38,045 --> 00:41:39,344 like, it was so 1166 00:41:39,724 --> 00:41:40,224 obvious. 1167 00:41:40,605 --> 00:41:43,405 Right? You're building Zion, you're building something the 1168 00:41:43,405 --> 00:41:44,704 world will crush. 1169 00:41:45,170 --> 00:41:47,329 And so you need to keep it under 1170 00:41:47,329 --> 00:41:49,170 wraps. You don't need to show up in 1171 00:41:49,170 --> 00:41:51,590 your ward and say, hey. 1172 00:41:51,890 --> 00:41:54,210 I have decided that I'm gonna build Zion 1173 00:41:54,210 --> 00:41:56,769 in this ward and because that will be 1174 00:41:56,769 --> 00:41:59,405 immediately crushed. What you do is what Jesus 1175 00:41:59,405 --> 00:42:02,284 did. Right? He went about doing the healings, 1176 00:42:02,284 --> 00:42:05,164 doing the miracles, doing the work, and then 1177 00:42:05,164 --> 00:42:07,105 for quite a while, told people, 1178 00:42:07,565 --> 00:42:10,045 don't tell anyone about this. I don't want 1179 00:42:10,045 --> 00:42:10,625 the attention. 1180 00:42:11,324 --> 00:42:12,784 The roots are too 1181 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:13,820 weak. 1182 00:42:14,119 --> 00:42:16,360 I need to let them grab a hold 1183 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:16,860 first 1184 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,480 and trust that this tree can withstand the 1185 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:22,519 storms that will come before those storms come 1186 00:42:22,519 --> 00:42:25,605 too early. And so practically for us, you 1187 00:42:25,605 --> 00:42:27,284 know, if you feel the call to lead, 1188 00:42:27,284 --> 00:42:28,965 if you feel the call to build Zion, 1189 00:42:28,965 --> 00:42:30,724 whether you're a bishop or not, like, for 1190 00:42:30,724 --> 00:42:32,164 those of you who are familiar, I've written 1191 00:42:32,164 --> 00:42:35,065 recently about a bishop who felt the call 1192 00:42:35,125 --> 00:42:37,385 and was doing the work as a bishop, 1193 00:42:37,445 --> 00:42:40,619 and the system still crushed him, totally 1194 00:42:41,159 --> 00:42:44,280 annihilated him. And practically speaking, I mean, I'm 1195 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,920 not giving him any advice, but practically speaking, 1196 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:48,780 we might look and say, well, tactically, 1197 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:49,900 maybe 1198 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:51,960 you needed to be a little bit more 1199 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:54,585 under the radar first. Maybe you needed to 1200 00:42:54,585 --> 00:42:56,744 show the fruits first before it got a 1201 00:42:56,744 --> 00:42:57,885 little bit too 1202 00:42:58,264 --> 00:43:01,885 big, because then the system came down really 1203 00:43:01,945 --> 00:43:04,045 hard. And then if you don't have 1204 00:43:04,344 --> 00:43:06,525 authority, if you're not in that appointed position, 1205 00:43:07,089 --> 00:43:09,190 you know, then I would say 1206 00:43:09,489 --> 00:43:11,650 you can't fall into the trap of bowing 1207 00:43:11,650 --> 00:43:14,210 to the throne, of kissing the ring, of 1208 00:43:14,210 --> 00:43:15,969 going and saying, like, hey. I'm I'm getting 1209 00:43:15,969 --> 00:43:16,710 your approval 1210 00:43:17,170 --> 00:43:20,130 to do this because approval doesn't come. And 1211 00:43:20,130 --> 00:43:22,045 even if you think it comes, it's like, 1212 00:43:22,045 --> 00:43:23,724 oh, yeah. I love this project. Go do 1213 00:43:23,724 --> 00:43:26,204 this thing. The minute you actually begin doing 1214 00:43:26,204 --> 00:43:28,204 it, the way the spirit is leading you 1215 00:43:28,204 --> 00:43:30,684 to, the way that contradicts the status quo 1216 00:43:30,684 --> 00:43:32,684 and the way the system is, the system 1217 00:43:32,684 --> 00:43:35,244 will come down and crush you. And it 1218 00:43:35,244 --> 00:43:37,059 will do it with a smile, and it 1219 00:43:37,059 --> 00:43:39,639 will do it with the words of affirmation 1220 00:43:40,099 --> 00:43:42,039 and bringing you back into, 1221 00:43:42,659 --> 00:43:44,900 you know, the structure in the system, but 1222 00:43:44,900 --> 00:43:47,059 it will gut you. And you will walk 1223 00:43:47,059 --> 00:43:49,934 away going, I no longer feel safe. I 1224 00:43:49,934 --> 00:43:51,235 no longer feel empowered. 1225 00:43:51,535 --> 00:43:53,215 I no longer feel like I can do 1226 00:43:53,215 --> 00:43:55,215 the things God is putting on my heart 1227 00:43:55,215 --> 00:43:57,215 to do. So you have to recognize there 1228 00:43:57,215 --> 00:43:58,735 is a time and a place. Jesus said 1229 00:43:58,735 --> 00:44:00,175 it. There is a time and a place 1230 00:44:00,175 --> 00:44:01,155 for being careful 1231 00:44:01,614 --> 00:44:02,515 about how 1232 00:44:02,894 --> 00:44:04,590 you are public about this. 1233 00:44:04,910 --> 00:44:07,230 Now I will also note here, Kurt, there 1234 00:44:07,230 --> 00:44:09,309 is a massive burden on the change maker 1235 00:44:09,309 --> 00:44:10,369 to check ego, 1236 00:44:10,750 --> 00:44:12,610 a massive burden, because 1237 00:44:12,989 --> 00:44:15,309 typically, we rely on those system signals and 1238 00:44:15,309 --> 00:44:17,150 cues to tell us if we're virtuous or 1239 00:44:17,150 --> 00:44:19,394 not. And when we're no longer getting those 1240 00:44:19,394 --> 00:44:20,614 or we're getting contrary 1241 00:44:21,155 --> 00:44:22,454 signals from the system, 1242 00:44:22,835 --> 00:44:24,434 now you're in the position of saying, is 1243 00:44:24,434 --> 00:44:25,175 this priestcraft? 1244 00:44:25,474 --> 00:44:27,335 Am I setting up a church unto myself? 1245 00:44:27,555 --> 00:44:29,394 Am I trying to take over things that 1246 00:44:29,394 --> 00:44:31,480 aren't mine to do? And you're now in 1247 00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:33,640 the role of having to have one on 1248 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:36,619 one direct communication with the Lord and saying, 1249 00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:38,140 am I okay? 1250 00:44:38,519 --> 00:44:40,780 Is this what you're asking me to do? 1251 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:42,700 And you gotta take those signals 1252 00:44:43,215 --> 00:44:44,434 directly from the spirit. 1253 00:44:44,735 --> 00:44:46,414 And when there's a time and a place, 1254 00:44:46,414 --> 00:44:48,255 you have to walk into the heat of 1255 00:44:48,255 --> 00:44:50,255 the moment and you have to bear the 1256 00:44:50,255 --> 00:44:52,335 heat. You have to take the risks. You 1257 00:44:52,335 --> 00:44:54,015 have to hold the weight. Because I can 1258 00:44:54,015 --> 00:44:56,735 promise you, if you don't do it, nobody 1259 00:44:56,735 --> 00:44:58,789 else will. And you'll sit around and hope 1260 00:44:58,789 --> 00:45:00,710 for the next bishop or hope for the 1261 00:45:00,710 --> 00:45:03,110 next, you know, word to come down from 1262 00:45:03,110 --> 00:45:05,750 on high with the next institutional policy change. 1263 00:45:05,750 --> 00:45:07,670 And you'll you'll hope that it's gonna change 1264 00:45:07,670 --> 00:45:10,005 everything. And then just like we are today, 1265 00:45:10,244 --> 00:45:12,244 whatever it has been five or eight or 1266 00:45:12,244 --> 00:45:13,924 ten years, whatever it has been since president 1267 00:45:13,924 --> 00:45:16,324 Nelson came out with those rash changes that 1268 00:45:16,324 --> 00:45:18,644 we all were waiting for. And we're sure 1269 00:45:18,644 --> 00:45:19,944 we're gonna change everything. 1270 00:45:20,324 --> 00:45:23,000 And yet we're all still here saying, actually, 1271 00:45:23,380 --> 00:45:24,760 pretty much still the 1272 00:45:30,420 --> 00:45:30,920 same. 1273 00:45:31,539 --> 00:45:33,059 Now that we've reached the end of the 1274 00:45:33,059 --> 00:45:33,559 episode, 1275 00:45:33,860 --> 00:45:36,019 I quickly wanna thank you for supporting the 1276 00:45:36,019 --> 00:45:37,239 Leading Saints podcast. 1277 00:45:37,635 --> 00:45:39,715 There's so much content out there to consider 1278 00:45:39,715 --> 00:45:42,195 and you picked this one. If leading saints 1279 00:45:42,195 --> 00:45:44,195 has made an impact in your life, we 1280 00:45:44,195 --> 00:45:46,275 would sure like to hear about it at 1281 00:45:46,275 --> 00:45:48,215 leadingsaints.org/contact. 1282 00:45:48,515 --> 00:45:50,820 And if you could quickly text or email 1283 00:45:50,820 --> 00:45:53,220 this episode to a leader you know, I 1284 00:45:53,220 --> 00:45:54,980 bet it will bless their life. You can 1285 00:45:54,980 --> 00:45:56,900 mark off your good turn daily and let's 1286 00:45:56,900 --> 00:45:59,380 even call it ministering. Okay. Maybe not that 1287 00:45:59,380 --> 00:46:01,780 far. But seriously, thank you and help us 1288 00:46:01,780 --> 00:46:02,680 share this content. 1289 00:46:03,204 --> 00:46:03,704 Remember, 1290 00:46:04,005 --> 00:46:08,105 solve the burden of meetings by visiting leadingsaints.org/14 1291 00:46:08,164 --> 00:46:10,724 and getting fourteen days access to the Meetings 1292 00:46:10,724 --> 00:46:12,505 with Saints virtual library. 1293 00:46:22,449 --> 00:46:24,949 It came as a result of the position 1294 00:46:25,090 --> 00:46:28,070 of leadership which was imposed upon us 1295 00:46:28,485 --> 00:46:30,505 by the God of heaven who brought 1296 00:46:30,805 --> 00:46:34,105 forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus 1297 00:46:34,325 --> 00:46:34,825 Christ. 1298 00:46:35,445 --> 00:46:36,505 When the declaration 1299 00:46:36,805 --> 00:46:40,085 was made concerning the own and only true 1300 00:46:40,085 --> 00:46:42,485 and living Church upon the face of the 1301 00:46:42,485 --> 00:46:42,960 earth, 1302 00:46:43,519 --> 00:46:46,099 We were immediately put in a position of 1303 00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:46,820 loneliness, 1304 00:46:47,199 --> 00:46:48,739 the loneliness of leadership 1305 00:46:49,359 --> 00:46:52,339 from which we cannot shrink nor run away, 1306 00:46:53,119 --> 00:46:55,599 and to which we must face up with 1307 00:46:55,599 --> 00:46:57,139 boldness and courage 1308 00:46:57,599 --> 00:46:58,420 and ability.