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Everyone, welcome back to Leading Saints podcast. Today,

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it's a monologue

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episode where I'm gonna jump on here, and

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we actually recorded this in the Leading Saints

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community, which if you're not a part of,

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we're gonna do more and more things like

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this where you can actually participate

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in some of the recordings of the Leading

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Saints podcast, ask questions, and contribute thoughts, and

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disagree with me or disagree with the guests

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or whatever, and just continue to to foster

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some really interesting discussion around leadership. Now the

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topic today is the unwritten order of things.

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And sometimes this phrase, I don't know if

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you've heard it before. Maybe you've just heard

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it in the context of a meeting and

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just thought it was a cute phrase that

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Latter day Saints use.

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And from time to time, it gets referenced

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here on Leading Saints. And sometimes I'll even

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get an email and say, hey, girl. I

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don't know if you know this, but the

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unwritten order of things is actually comes from

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a talk by Elder Packer that he gave

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at BYU. And I'm like, oh,

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believe me. I'm well aware of this talk.

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I find this talk really interesting

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because

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it has had a such a unique impact

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on

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the leadership

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culture of the church. Because from time to

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time, as I've gone through various assignments and

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even growing up in my home and learning

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about leadership from my father and he served

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in various leadership roles, this phrase would often

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come up, the unwritten order of things.

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And basically, it kinda gets framed as in,

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oh, those are the things that maybe obviously

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aren't written down, but we should definitely do.

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And this is interesting because

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as we throw this phrase around, I often

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think, well, have people even, like, listened to

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this talk? Right? I'm gonna give you an

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opportunity at the end of this up episode.

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I'm gonna read through the talk. Like, if

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you wanna listen just wanna hear the full

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talk. Very interesting talk. Very interesting tone as

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Elder Packer always always had. Now before we

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get into this, I do wanna give a

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shout out to Dave Lefevre, Sean Lesko, and

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Jared Goudot

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who kinda helped me process

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this talk. And we we all read it.

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We came together. We we highlighted different things,

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pointed out different dynamics. And so shout out

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to them for helping me put my thoughts

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together and see what we learn here. So

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what is the unwritten order of things?

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There's actually a BYU devotional, as I said,

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a BYU devotional given by Elder Packer in

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October of nineteen ninety six.

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K? So in my mind I mean, that's

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not too long ago. I was, was 14.

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So, I mean, I I wasn't aware of

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this until many years later. But as the

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leaders understand, there's a consistent reference to this

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this talk. And often, it's in the context

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of, like, oh, that's just the way we

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do these things. Right? That's just the way

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it's done. That's the unwritten order of things.

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So it's almost like this trump card of,

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like, oh, you can't disagree with us because

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that's part of the unwritten order of things.

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Right? So it might be a setting, a

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council of some type, and maybe the leader

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says, oh, and be sure

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that when you

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that when the presiding authority speaks in a

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church meeting that nobody speaks after that person.

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So I say, well, what what do you

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where's that written? Oh, no. No. That's part

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of the unwritten order of things. Right? So,

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unfortunately, this concept gets weaponized from time to

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time to push an agenda or an opinion

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that isn't in the handbook,

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that isn't written down anywhere. But for some

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reason, we have,

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this unwritten order of things. And sometimes I

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wanna say, can someone just write down the

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unwritten order of things so that it's we

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know what we're you know, there's not the

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secret game going on? And so this has

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been a an excuse to push cultural norms,

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the good, the bad, the ugly. And some

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of them I, you know, agree with. Some

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of the things that other packer says and

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he was like, yeah. I can get behind

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that. I think we should do that. However,

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doesn't necessarily mean it's in the handbook. Doesn't

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necessarily mean everybody should do it. Right? And

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sometimes there's this feeling of, like, the secret

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leadership club. Right? Like, oh, yeah. You're a

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leader, but I I know how to really

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be a leader. Like, I know the right

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and wrong things to do, the unwritten order

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of things. I have a good friend who

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served a mission who, his mission president would

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spend time in his own conference teaching the

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unwritten order of things. And he once went

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through the list of these things with me

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as far as everything from how to give

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a blessing to how to run a meeting

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and and just inserting all these rules that,

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again, aren't written anywhere, but it was sort

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of this feeling of like, okay. I'm a

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you know, I'm an accomplished mission presence. I'm

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gonna teach you the unwritten order of things.

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And I guess my hope is that we

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maybe just pause and

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consider

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why we do things, where do things come

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from, and reassess because,

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like I said, these things can push cultural

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norms, a lot of good cultural norms, but

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also some that aren't so good or outdated

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that aren't helping us. So so let's put

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it all into context. A few questions I'm

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gonna explore here about the, this talk, the

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unwritten order of things is what's the context?

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What does this talk even say? Is it

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binding?

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Right? Was it in the handbook or the

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written order of things? Right? That would be

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the handbook, the written order of things. So

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Elder Packer mentions a whole lot of different

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things and doesn't necessarily mean it's in the

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handbook. Right? So what's the context? 1996

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in the church, those of you that remember

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that time, if you were in a bishop

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in the nineties, this was even in my

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time when I first started in a bishopric

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where handbooks weren't publicly available. Now they're so

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easy. Like, literally every member of the church

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who's downloaded the gospel library app can open

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up the handbook, the general handbook, and read

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from it. Right? Now

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there were two handbooks, at least in my

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time. I'm sure going back even further, there

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are several more handbooks. But during my time,

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there were the first part of my leadership

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time, there were two different handbooks. Right? There

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are two different colors. One was the a

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general handbook, I think trying to think it

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was book two that you could that you

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could, you know, distribute widely. And book one

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had to be under lock and key in

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the filing cabinet in the bishop or the

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clerk's office. Right? Or the bishop's office. And

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so book two, you could, like you know,

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you call Sunday school president. Hey. Here's the

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book two. Why don't you sometimes I would

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photocopy

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different pages of that, you know, the Sunday

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school section and and give it to them.

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Hey. Just so you know, here's some guidance

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on your calling, right, as you start as

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a as a Sunday school president or even,

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you know, working with youth or pretty much

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every calling had at least a paragraph in

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the handbook. Well, in 1996,

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this it was even hard to get ahold

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of the handbook two to even know what

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your calling was about. But book

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one, if I'm remembering the numbers right, was

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under lock and key, like I said. So

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I remember being called to a bishop break,

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and I finally got access. I could actually

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look in the handbook as long as I

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was reading it in the clerk's office or

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the bishop's office. I think if I remember

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right, we all each got one. And but

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we I I don't know if, again, it

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was maybe in the unwritten order of things

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that you had to keep them locked up

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in the filing cabinet of church rather than

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carry around. I remember many times these got

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leaked and put online and, you know, the

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PR department would obviously have an issue with

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that, whatever. And now it's kinda just transferred

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just to, you know, to just make it

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publicly available.

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So I think it's really it's understanding the

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context of this is that understanding leadership and

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the process of the church with handbooks not

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being available, this was sort of, an anomaly.

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Like, it was sort of behind the scenes,

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behind the curtain, and people didn't really know

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how the administration of the church worked or

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why we do things. And and so it

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was much easier back then to kinda see

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something the bishop does and think, oh, well,

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that's just how it's done. He must have

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some guidance somewhere that tells him to do

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these things. Right? So another thing to consider

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is Elder Packer was a teacher. So naturally,

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he wanted to teach leadership, and this was

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a great forum to a bunch of BYU

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students, an upcoming,

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you know, crop of of future leaders to

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begin to talk about leadership concepts to them.

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And so makes sense that elder Packer would

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take an opportunity to teach at a in

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a university, right, in this setting. And, so

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I think it was a natural direction for

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him to go. He was also, as many

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of you know, very opinionated.

261
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There's some moments in this talk. As I

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read it, I'm sort of like, oh, feel

263
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like sometimes using a lot of shame with

264
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leaders to teach him a lesson and those

265
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things, which I don't know if I would

266
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do that way. Right? Another thing to consider,

267
00:09:28,339 --> 00:09:31,059
it was challenging to communicate leadership guidelines and

268
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update handbooks.

269
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And so, like, today, they can make a

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00:09:34,339 --> 00:09:35,940
ham an update in the handbook, and it's

271
00:09:35,940 --> 00:09:37,940
just, you know, as you sleep, updates in

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00:09:37,940 --> 00:09:39,480
the app. And you don't sometimes

273
00:09:39,860 --> 00:09:41,459
as a leader, I'm looking through the handbook

274
00:09:41,459 --> 00:09:42,600
on the app, and I wonder,

275
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I know this was the case, you know,

276
00:09:44,475 --> 00:09:45,995
a few years ago. I better check again

277
00:09:45,995 --> 00:09:47,674
to make sure it hasn't changed. Well, back

278
00:09:47,674 --> 00:09:48,574
then, it was

279
00:09:48,875 --> 00:09:50,554
extremely rare to get a new crop of

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handbooks, get a new addition of the handbooks.

281
00:09:52,315 --> 00:09:53,774
And so this evolving,

282
00:09:54,714 --> 00:09:56,875
leadership guidance just wasn't there. So maybe a

283
00:09:56,875 --> 00:10:00,149
BYU devotional was a great venue to talk

284
00:10:00,149 --> 00:10:01,910
about leadership and make some tweaks to it.

285
00:10:01,910 --> 00:10:04,269
Right? Another thing is during this time of

286
00:10:04,269 --> 00:10:06,309
the church, there was tremendous growth that was

287
00:10:06,309 --> 00:10:08,870
happening. And how do you stay on top

288
00:10:08,870 --> 00:10:11,529
of developing all these leaders around the world?

289
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And

290
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so I think this was just another way

291
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that not that maybe the quorum of the

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00:10:15,764 --> 00:10:18,245
12 came together and said, Elder Packer, go

293
00:10:18,245 --> 00:10:21,125
to BYU and teach them about leadership. But

294
00:10:21,125 --> 00:10:23,285
I think every general authority or apostle or

295
00:10:23,285 --> 00:10:24,725
member of the first prince who was looking

296
00:10:24,725 --> 00:10:27,330
for opportunities to teach these concepts because it

297
00:10:27,330 --> 00:10:30,149
was very difficult to quickly update the handbook

298
00:10:30,450 --> 00:10:32,470
and the church was growing so fast. Right?

299
00:10:32,529 --> 00:10:35,169
President Hinckley, another kinda you get this vibe

300
00:10:35,169 --> 00:10:38,070
from president Hinckley as he this was just

301
00:10:38,129 --> 00:10:40,125
one year later, president Hinckley gave his talk

302
00:10:40,125 --> 00:10:41,644
where he talked about every member needs a

303
00:10:41,644 --> 00:10:43,725
friend of responsibility and the nourishment of the

304
00:10:43,725 --> 00:10:45,804
good word of God. Right? So there's these

305
00:10:45,804 --> 00:10:46,304
little

306
00:10:46,684 --> 00:10:47,664
nuance like

307
00:10:48,125 --> 00:10:48,865
the guidance

308
00:10:49,485 --> 00:10:52,205
pieces of guidance that various general authorities were

309
00:10:52,205 --> 00:10:54,179
inserting in their talks to say, hey. This

310
00:10:54,179 --> 00:10:56,019
is maybe a a way of leadership to

311
00:10:56,019 --> 00:10:58,980
consider. Right? Another thing that, happened just a

312
00:10:58,980 --> 00:11:01,379
few years before this, but Elder Ballard's counsel

313
00:11:01,379 --> 00:11:03,940
with our councils came a few years earlier

314
00:11:03,940 --> 00:11:06,019
in October of ninety three and April of

315
00:11:06,019 --> 00:11:08,214
nineteen ninety four. Then later, I think in

316
00:11:08,214 --> 00:11:09,115
'97

317
00:11:09,254 --> 00:11:10,694
is when it actually got published as a

318
00:11:10,694 --> 00:11:12,855
book. So many of you might be familiar

319
00:11:12,855 --> 00:11:15,194
with the council with our council's book, but

320
00:11:15,334 --> 00:11:17,334
you should know that actually started as a

321
00:11:17,334 --> 00:11:19,654
series of general conference talks that he then

322
00:11:19,654 --> 00:11:22,059
turned into a book. Right? Another thing to

323
00:11:22,059 --> 00:11:24,779
consider for context, this is not published online

324
00:11:24,779 --> 00:11:26,779
by BYU talks. I don't know if it

325
00:11:26,779 --> 00:11:29,019
was back then if, you know, the Internet

326
00:11:29,019 --> 00:11:30,940
was pretty young, so I'd be surprised if

327
00:11:30,940 --> 00:11:32,860
they're publishing in that time. But you can

328
00:11:32,860 --> 00:11:34,699
go into BYU talks and find this talk.

329
00:11:34,699 --> 00:11:36,315
So I don't know what that means or

330
00:11:36,315 --> 00:11:38,235
why, but it's something to consider. Right? That

331
00:11:38,235 --> 00:11:40,875
maybe the church isn't perpetuating this talk even

332
00:11:40,875 --> 00:11:43,274
though that's why I'm dressing it conservative leading

333
00:11:43,274 --> 00:11:45,595
saints. It gets perpetuated a lot in leadership

334
00:11:45,595 --> 00:11:46,095
circles.

335
00:11:46,554 --> 00:11:49,134
Next is, what does the talk even say?

336
00:11:49,250 --> 00:11:51,909
Because oftentimes, this is like an umbrella term

337
00:11:52,209 --> 00:11:55,009
that gets people insert their own unwritten order

338
00:11:55,009 --> 00:11:57,009
of things and kinda blame it on Elder

339
00:11:57,009 --> 00:11:58,769
Packer, right, or blame it on this talk

340
00:11:58,769 --> 00:12:01,009
of the unwritten order of things. Or something

341
00:12:01,009 --> 00:12:03,315
might trying to think of an example, but,

342
00:12:03,394 --> 00:12:04,835
well, I guess one example that comes to

343
00:12:04,835 --> 00:12:06,514
mind was to talk about is when the

344
00:12:06,514 --> 00:12:09,794
presiding authority speaks in sacred meaning, the unwritten

345
00:12:09,794 --> 00:12:11,955
order of things, you might hear it said

346
00:12:11,955 --> 00:12:13,894
like this, gives us a direction

347
00:12:14,514 --> 00:12:15,014
that

348
00:12:15,475 --> 00:12:17,715
nobody should speak after them. You see this

349
00:12:17,715 --> 00:12:21,309
in general conference. So let's say president Eyring

350
00:12:21,529 --> 00:12:24,649
is conducting the meeting. President Nelson's gonna speak.

351
00:12:24,649 --> 00:12:27,610
President Eyring will get up before president Nelson's

352
00:12:27,610 --> 00:12:30,490
talk, and he'll say all the closing things.

353
00:12:30,490 --> 00:12:32,490
Right? We're now gonna hear from our beloved

354
00:12:32,490 --> 00:12:35,035
prophet. The choir will then sing this. This

355
00:12:35,035 --> 00:12:38,154
will conclude this session or this general conference

356
00:12:38,154 --> 00:12:40,315
or whatever. Like, he never gets up after

357
00:12:40,315 --> 00:12:43,215
president Nelson. Right? Now that's a good model.

358
00:12:43,434 --> 00:12:43,934
However,

359
00:12:44,394 --> 00:12:45,674
does that mean we have to do in

360
00:12:45,674 --> 00:12:47,909
sacrament meeting? Right? Well, it's not on the

361
00:12:47,909 --> 00:12:50,470
handbook that way. Right? There's some guidance on

362
00:12:50,470 --> 00:12:52,009
what presiding authorities do,

363
00:12:52,470 --> 00:12:54,629
but it never says that nobody can speak

364
00:12:54,629 --> 00:12:57,029
after presiding authority. And this actually came up

365
00:12:57,029 --> 00:12:58,629
when I was serving in the state presidency.

366
00:12:58,629 --> 00:13:00,230
We had a visiting 70. It was an

367
00:13:00,230 --> 00:13:02,549
area 70 that came to town. He visited

368
00:13:02,549 --> 00:13:05,245
a ward, and this young bishopric I mean,

369
00:13:05,245 --> 00:13:07,404
nobody taught them the unwritten order of things,

370
00:13:07,404 --> 00:13:10,044
and he stood up. You know, the presiding

371
00:13:10,044 --> 00:13:12,365
authority gave some closing remarks, and then this

372
00:13:12,365 --> 00:13:14,365
bishopric second council or whatever stood up and

373
00:13:14,365 --> 00:13:17,184
announced the closing him the closing prayer. Right?

374
00:13:17,309 --> 00:13:20,830
Well, that visiting area seventy sent us a

375
00:13:20,830 --> 00:13:24,190
email kinda in a negative fashion to correct

376
00:13:24,190 --> 00:13:26,590
this bishopric number, and I'm thinking, well, wait

377
00:13:26,590 --> 00:13:28,350
a minute. Like, are we supposed to teach

378
00:13:28,350 --> 00:13:32,014
him these arbitrary rules and and unwritten order

379
00:13:32,014 --> 00:13:34,514
things when they're not written down anywhere? Like,

380
00:13:34,654 --> 00:13:36,414
how are we supposed to know what unwritten

381
00:13:36,414 --> 00:13:38,894
things to to write down? Well, Elder Packer

382
00:13:38,894 --> 00:13:40,414
never talks about that in this talk, but

383
00:13:40,414 --> 00:13:42,495
sometimes it gets kinda just thrown in with,

384
00:13:42,495 --> 00:13:43,855
oh, that's part of the unwritten order of

385
00:13:43,855 --> 00:13:45,730
things. Like, well, who determines what's in the

386
00:13:45,730 --> 00:13:47,889
unwritten order of things? Right? So let me

387
00:13:47,889 --> 00:13:49,409
just go over real quick. What are the

388
00:13:49,409 --> 00:13:52,209
10 unwritten order of things that Elder Packer

389
00:13:52,209 --> 00:13:54,209
states? Now there's a few nuance ones that

390
00:13:54,209 --> 00:13:55,970
he in inserts in there, but I went

391
00:13:55,970 --> 00:13:57,750
through the talking here are the 10 things

392
00:13:58,225 --> 00:14:00,384
the elder packer mentions as the unwritten order

393
00:14:00,384 --> 00:14:01,985
of things, and then we're gonna determine if

394
00:14:01,985 --> 00:14:03,665
they're in the handbook or not. K? The

395
00:14:03,665 --> 00:14:06,304
first one, the person presiding in a meeting

396
00:14:06,304 --> 00:14:08,384
should sit on the stand or at the

397
00:14:08,384 --> 00:14:10,325
front near the person conducting.

398
00:14:10,740 --> 00:14:11,720
Is it in the handbook?

399
00:14:12,259 --> 00:14:14,339
No. It's not in the handbook. Okay? Now

400
00:14:14,339 --> 00:14:16,179
this is to me, this is really good

401
00:14:16,179 --> 00:14:19,399
practice because if someone's presiding in a meeting,

402
00:14:19,539 --> 00:14:21,220
like, it'd be good to sit next to

403
00:14:21,220 --> 00:14:23,399
them if you're conducting the meeting because then

404
00:14:23,459 --> 00:14:25,059
they can direct you on how this meeting

405
00:14:25,059 --> 00:14:26,200
is gonna go. Right?

406
00:14:26,565 --> 00:14:28,565
So if we're ending where if we're only

407
00:14:28,565 --> 00:14:30,404
singing one verse of the closing hymn, you

408
00:14:30,404 --> 00:14:32,105
know, as I did as a bishop there,

409
00:14:32,165 --> 00:14:33,684
and the stake presidency member was there. I

410
00:14:33,684 --> 00:14:35,044
turned to them and say, hey. We're overtime.

411
00:14:35,044 --> 00:14:36,644
Do you wanna just sing the the first

412
00:14:36,644 --> 00:14:38,085
verse only in the hymn? Right? And then

413
00:14:38,085 --> 00:14:39,684
I would stand up and announce that if

414
00:14:39,684 --> 00:14:41,659
that's the direction that it would go. So,

415
00:14:41,659 --> 00:14:44,220
again, good practice. I would probably recommend it,

416
00:14:44,220 --> 00:14:46,059
but I would never create the perception that

417
00:14:46,059 --> 00:14:47,500
this is in the handbook because it's not

418
00:14:47,500 --> 00:14:49,579
in the handbook. Right? Alright. Next one. The

419
00:14:49,579 --> 00:14:52,059
first counselor in a presidency sits on the

420
00:14:52,059 --> 00:14:54,539
right of the presiding officer. I think this

421
00:14:54,539 --> 00:14:55,120
is part

422
00:14:55,915 --> 00:14:57,835
a tradition that continues today. Right? Is it

423
00:14:57,835 --> 00:14:59,995
in a handbook? No. It's not in the

424
00:14:59,995 --> 00:15:00,495
handbook.

425
00:15:00,875 --> 00:15:02,154
Again, I guess you could do that. I

426
00:15:02,154 --> 00:15:03,835
don't think it's hurting anything, but I also

427
00:15:03,835 --> 00:15:05,754
don't think it hurts anything if, you know,

428
00:15:05,754 --> 00:15:08,430
maybe the second council likes to run the

429
00:15:08,570 --> 00:15:10,750
the lectern, you know, controls or whatever

430
00:15:11,529 --> 00:15:14,170
or the microphone controls. Right? But, again, this

431
00:15:14,170 --> 00:15:15,610
is one of those things that's out there

432
00:15:15,610 --> 00:15:17,290
that you had written order things, but it's

433
00:15:17,290 --> 00:15:19,529
not in the handbook. Members should not write

434
00:15:19,529 --> 00:15:22,190
to general authorities for personal counsel. Instead,

435
00:15:22,490 --> 00:15:25,634
seek counsel from your bishop who may refer

436
00:15:25,695 --> 00:15:28,115
you to the stake president if needed.

437
00:15:28,575 --> 00:15:29,955
Alright. Is it in the handbook?

438
00:15:30,654 --> 00:15:33,214
Yeah. I think so. It's, in handbook thirty

439
00:15:33,214 --> 00:15:34,034
one two

440
00:15:34,414 --> 00:15:36,735
point two point one point two instructs members

441
00:15:36,735 --> 00:15:39,460
to seek guidance from local leaders, bishops, or

442
00:15:39,460 --> 00:15:40,200
state presidents

443
00:15:40,660 --> 00:15:44,019
aligning with this principle. So, yeah, ideally, don't

444
00:15:44,019 --> 00:15:46,100
write general authorities. And, even though they talk

445
00:15:46,100 --> 00:15:48,179
about in general conference talks of members writing

446
00:15:48,179 --> 00:15:49,940
them, seeking guidance all the time, which is

447
00:15:49,940 --> 00:15:52,254
kind of ironic. But and I think it's

448
00:15:52,254 --> 00:15:54,414
good for people to know that when you

449
00:15:54,414 --> 00:15:57,075
write a general authority, an apostle or somebody,

450
00:15:57,375 --> 00:15:59,375
often, if not always, gets forwarded to your

451
00:15:59,375 --> 00:16:01,534
stake president or to your bishop. So if

452
00:16:01,534 --> 00:16:03,054
you're writing them and you think your bishop

453
00:16:03,054 --> 00:16:05,339
won't read it, you're probably wrong. Alright. Next

454
00:16:05,339 --> 00:16:06,639
one is for blessings,

455
00:16:07,100 --> 00:16:08,079
go to your parents.

456
00:16:08,860 --> 00:16:11,339
If unavailable, then to your home teacher. Obviously,

457
00:16:11,339 --> 00:16:13,519
you're ministering brother. Is it a handbook?

458
00:16:13,980 --> 00:16:15,600
No. It's not in the handbook.

459
00:16:16,059 --> 00:16:18,539
You know, it's definitely kind to maybe not

460
00:16:18,539 --> 00:16:19,839
overload the bishop

461
00:16:20,254 --> 00:16:23,054
with requests for blessings or your leaders like

462
00:16:23,054 --> 00:16:25,294
that. And hopefully, you've built friendships that you

463
00:16:25,294 --> 00:16:27,134
can turn to individuals, and there's nothing it's

464
00:16:27,134 --> 00:16:28,894
not like you get more power from a

465
00:16:28,894 --> 00:16:31,215
blessing because somebody is more experienced or more

466
00:16:31,215 --> 00:16:31,715
articulate

467
00:16:32,110 --> 00:16:34,830
those things. So alright. This next principle that

468
00:16:34,830 --> 00:16:36,750
Elder Packer talks about is the line of

469
00:16:36,750 --> 00:16:40,110
authority for revelation and counsel is vertical and

470
00:16:40,110 --> 00:16:42,830
should be respected. Leaders receive revelation in their

471
00:16:42,830 --> 00:16:43,649
own stewardships.

472
00:16:44,350 --> 00:16:46,774
So this is in part of saying that,

473
00:16:46,835 --> 00:16:49,075
you know, if a elder court president has

474
00:16:49,075 --> 00:16:50,514
a question, he should go to his bishop

475
00:16:50,514 --> 00:16:52,195
or stake president. If a bishop has a

476
00:16:52,195 --> 00:16:54,195
question, he should go or needs advice, he

477
00:16:54,195 --> 00:16:55,495
should go to a stake president.

478
00:16:55,875 --> 00:16:57,315
Is this in the handbook? I would say

479
00:16:57,315 --> 00:17:00,840
no. You're encouraged to have receive revelation and

480
00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:01,820
go that direction,

481
00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,160
but it doesn't necessarily prohibit anybody you can

482
00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:07,320
talk to. So elder Packer kind of put

483
00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:09,480
it in this that if you are a

484
00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,619
bishop and another family member's a bishop or

485
00:17:12,894 --> 00:17:14,974
coworker is also a bishop, you shouldn't go

486
00:17:14,974 --> 00:17:16,894
to them for counsel. However, I just feel

487
00:17:16,894 --> 00:17:19,214
that that's limiting. Right? Especially the guy who

488
00:17:19,214 --> 00:17:22,515
produces leading saints where we gather a community

489
00:17:22,734 --> 00:17:24,974
online where we discuss different leadership points. I

490
00:17:24,974 --> 00:17:27,529
don't think there's anything wrong with going online,

491
00:17:27,590 --> 00:17:30,390
reading something, being inspired, and trying something different.

492
00:17:30,390 --> 00:17:33,029
Right? Or hearing how another guy in a

493
00:17:33,029 --> 00:17:35,610
different country or in a different state approaches

494
00:17:35,670 --> 00:17:37,750
his calling and you do something different. I

495
00:17:37,750 --> 00:17:39,910
think that's what Zion looks like. Right? And

496
00:17:39,910 --> 00:17:42,330
using modern day technology to share those ideas,

497
00:17:42,605 --> 00:17:44,365
This is a good thing. Right? And I

498
00:17:44,365 --> 00:17:46,765
I just think of how many bishops or

499
00:17:46,765 --> 00:17:48,684
stake presidents or really excited presidents out there

500
00:17:48,684 --> 00:17:51,164
have a degree in organizational behavior but never

501
00:17:51,164 --> 00:17:53,565
draw upon that what they learned in that

502
00:17:53,565 --> 00:17:54,065
degree.

503
00:17:54,605 --> 00:17:56,880
So, again, this is another one that's kinda

504
00:17:56,919 --> 00:17:58,179
I don't know if it really

505
00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:00,399
has any feet to stand on in in

506
00:18:00,399 --> 00:18:01,460
2025.

507
00:18:01,519 --> 00:18:03,859
Alright. Next principle is never reject a calling

508
00:18:03,919 --> 00:18:07,119
except assignments given through proper priesthood channels. Is

509
00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:09,194
it in the handbook to never reject or

510
00:18:09,355 --> 00:18:10,014
a calling?

511
00:18:10,315 --> 00:18:11,914
No. It is not in the it is

512
00:18:11,914 --> 00:18:13,835
not in the handbook. He also talks about

513
00:18:13,994 --> 00:18:15,934
in this talk about not aspiring.

514
00:18:16,394 --> 00:18:17,914
I did a great episode on that if

515
00:18:17,914 --> 00:18:19,755
I do say so myself. It's called is

516
00:18:19,755 --> 00:18:20,894
aspiring wrong.

517
00:18:21,194 --> 00:18:23,054
So we'll link to that, and you can

518
00:18:23,194 --> 00:18:25,210
you can listen to that. So, yeah, I

519
00:18:25,210 --> 00:18:26,490
think a lot of the church, a lot

520
00:18:26,490 --> 00:18:28,170
of the culture shifted on this as far

521
00:18:28,170 --> 00:18:30,250
as never reject a calling or accept assignments

522
00:18:30,250 --> 00:18:32,250
given through proper priesthood channels. I think we

523
00:18:32,250 --> 00:18:33,610
just live in a different time with the

524
00:18:33,610 --> 00:18:36,170
dynamics of callings and responsibility of modern day

525
00:18:36,170 --> 00:18:37,710
life and children and

526
00:18:38,365 --> 00:18:40,444
obstacles they face in modern society and the

527
00:18:40,444 --> 00:18:42,365
time at home and family. Like, I think

528
00:18:42,365 --> 00:18:45,085
people are rejecting callings a lot now, not

529
00:18:45,085 --> 00:18:46,924
to say that they're all justified in rejecting

530
00:18:46,924 --> 00:18:48,845
that. I remember being in a bishopric and

531
00:18:48,845 --> 00:18:50,765
feeling like, I can't get anybody help out

532
00:18:50,765 --> 00:18:53,259
here. Like, nobody's accepting callings. Right? So,

533
00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:55,819
no, that is not in the handbook.

534
00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:57,099
Next one.

535
00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,559
At funerals, the focus should be on preaching

536
00:18:59,559 --> 00:19:02,679
the gospel rather than talking extensively about the

537
00:19:02,679 --> 00:19:03,179
deceased.

538
00:19:03,724 --> 00:19:04,865
Is that in the handbook?

539
00:19:05,644 --> 00:19:08,285
Yeah. Yeah. It is. Encourage simple spiritual this

540
00:19:08,285 --> 00:19:10,285
is a handbook chapter twenty nine point five

541
00:19:10,285 --> 00:19:14,285
point four. Encourages simple spiritual services but doesn't

542
00:19:14,285 --> 00:19:15,585
prohibit eulogies,

543
00:19:15,964 --> 00:19:16,445
a partial

544
00:19:16,940 --> 00:19:19,579
So there's a partial, alignment here. I think,

545
00:19:20,460 --> 00:19:22,700
you're reading in the talk, Elder Packer's pretty

546
00:19:22,700 --> 00:19:25,019
strong on this one as far as telling,

547
00:19:25,019 --> 00:19:27,279
you know, funny anecdotes or stories.

548
00:19:27,660 --> 00:19:29,865
But I don't know. I I think most

549
00:19:29,945 --> 00:19:32,025
we do pretty good job there, and I

550
00:19:32,025 --> 00:19:34,025
think the family deserves a little bit of

551
00:19:34,025 --> 00:19:36,984
autonomy there with how the funeral is conducted

552
00:19:36,984 --> 00:19:38,744
to not only, you know, preach the gospel,

553
00:19:38,744 --> 00:19:39,484
but also

554
00:19:39,945 --> 00:19:43,325
honor and value the person who is deceased.

555
00:19:43,700 --> 00:19:45,779
Alright. The next one. I think this is

556
00:19:45,779 --> 00:19:48,660
seven of 10 eight of 10. There is

557
00:19:48,660 --> 00:19:51,140
value in learning church customs and traditions through

558
00:19:51,140 --> 00:19:53,940
observation and experiences. These are not always written

559
00:19:53,940 --> 00:19:55,559
in handbooks or taught in classes.

560
00:19:56,085 --> 00:19:57,924
No. It's not in handbook. To me, this

561
00:19:57,924 --> 00:19:59,444
is kind of a dangerous one. I mean,

562
00:19:59,444 --> 00:20:02,244
that's maybe strong language, but, I mean, yeah,

563
00:20:02,244 --> 00:20:04,644
great ideas can be perpetuated as as we

564
00:20:04,644 --> 00:20:07,044
know by observing another person doing it. But

565
00:20:07,044 --> 00:20:09,765
terrible ideas can also be perpetuated by observing

566
00:20:09,765 --> 00:20:11,599
someone doing it, Right? Even a

567
00:20:11,980 --> 00:20:12,559
leader. So

568
00:20:12,859 --> 00:20:14,319
I think we, you know,

569
00:20:14,700 --> 00:20:17,500
we might be wise stewards, right, by observing

570
00:20:17,500 --> 00:20:19,740
what leaders are doing, but also not just

571
00:20:19,740 --> 00:20:22,140
assuming that everything that leader's doing has to

572
00:20:22,140 --> 00:20:24,079
be done that way. Right? So many traditions

573
00:20:24,315 --> 00:20:25,514
are being done in the church where if

574
00:20:25,514 --> 00:20:26,714
you ask the leader, why do you do

575
00:20:26,714 --> 00:20:28,234
that? I don't know. It's just the way

576
00:20:28,234 --> 00:20:31,134
it's always been done. Right? Alright. Next one.

577
00:20:31,434 --> 00:20:34,254
The unwritten order sets a tone of dignity

578
00:20:34,394 --> 00:20:36,254
and order in meetings and activities,

579
00:20:36,710 --> 00:20:38,150
though it is not so rigid that the

580
00:20:38,150 --> 00:20:40,230
church will fall apart if not always strictly

581
00:20:40,230 --> 00:20:41,750
observed. So this is kind of a vague

582
00:20:41,750 --> 00:20:43,990
one. The the unwritten order sets a tone

583
00:20:43,990 --> 00:20:46,569
of dignity and order. So basically saying

584
00:20:47,029 --> 00:20:49,269
leadership should be done with dignity and order.

585
00:20:49,269 --> 00:20:51,509
Right? Meeting should be conducted with dignity and

586
00:20:51,509 --> 00:20:53,375
order. Yeah. Is that in the handbook?

587
00:20:53,835 --> 00:20:55,835
No. I mean, not specifically. I I think,

588
00:20:55,835 --> 00:20:58,494
generally, there's the guidance in the handbook to

589
00:20:58,634 --> 00:21:01,615
be respectful and reverent and honor God and

590
00:21:01,674 --> 00:21:03,715
be appropriate. Right? But so it's not necessarily

591
00:21:03,715 --> 00:21:06,095
in the handbook, but it's still great advice.

592
00:21:06,154 --> 00:21:06,654
Right?

593
00:21:07,069 --> 00:21:09,009
So that's maybe a question for

594
00:21:09,390 --> 00:21:10,990
a word council to wrestle with is how

595
00:21:10,990 --> 00:21:12,829
do you maintain dignity? How do you do

596
00:21:12,829 --> 00:21:14,750
that? Are we doing it? Are we getting

597
00:21:14,750 --> 00:21:17,150
to to relax in some areas? How can

598
00:21:17,150 --> 00:21:19,505
we make sure dignity is consistent?

599
00:21:19,964 --> 00:21:21,884
Alright. Next one. A good leader is also

600
00:21:21,884 --> 00:21:24,525
a good follower, respecting the established order and

601
00:21:24,525 --> 00:21:25,025
authority.

602
00:21:25,484 --> 00:21:27,085
Is it required a good leader should be

603
00:21:27,085 --> 00:21:28,865
a good follower? Is that in the handbook?

604
00:21:29,404 --> 00:21:32,269
No. But, again, good advice. Right? There were

605
00:21:32,269 --> 00:21:34,390
a few others in here in the talk

606
00:21:34,390 --> 00:21:36,869
that were those seem like soapbox of some

607
00:21:36,869 --> 00:21:37,369
moments

608
00:21:37,829 --> 00:21:39,589
that Elder Packer was taking, which believe me,

609
00:21:39,589 --> 00:21:42,089
I love a good soapbox moment as I

610
00:21:42,230 --> 00:21:44,309
essentially, my weekly newsletter that I put out

611
00:21:44,470 --> 00:21:46,325
like, he mentions that the talk that when

612
00:21:46,325 --> 00:21:49,205
you're sustaining someone to a calling, that you

613
00:21:49,205 --> 00:21:51,125
should use their full name. Right? Maybe not

614
00:21:51,125 --> 00:21:52,884
their middle name or the middle initial, but

615
00:21:52,884 --> 00:21:54,805
if they're if they're Chuck, you know, they

616
00:21:54,805 --> 00:21:57,045
should be called Charles. Right? Or if it's,

617
00:21:57,845 --> 00:22:00,325
Sal, you'd her full name's Sally or whatever

618
00:22:00,325 --> 00:22:02,450
it is. So, again,

619
00:22:02,829 --> 00:22:04,670
is that in the handbook? I mean, no.

620
00:22:04,670 --> 00:22:05,170
But

621
00:22:05,710 --> 00:22:07,630
throughout the time, there's just these soapbox moments,

622
00:22:07,630 --> 00:22:09,150
and that's the tough thing about the unwritten

623
00:22:09,150 --> 00:22:11,549
order things. I don't know when other packers

624
00:22:11,549 --> 00:22:12,210
like soapboxing

625
00:22:12,829 --> 00:22:15,170
or when he's, like, giving clear direction

626
00:22:15,815 --> 00:22:17,595
about leadership principles. Right?

627
00:22:17,974 --> 00:22:19,815
So the third thing, I've kinda gone through,

628
00:22:19,815 --> 00:22:21,255
given you a summary of those 10 things

629
00:22:21,255 --> 00:22:23,335
that are in the unwritten like, what are

630
00:22:23,335 --> 00:22:25,734
the actual unwritten order things? So if somebody

631
00:22:25,734 --> 00:22:27,355
says, well, yeah, Elder Packer

632
00:22:27,654 --> 00:22:29,335
talked about this in the unwritten order thing.

633
00:22:29,335 --> 00:22:31,049
You say, no. He didn't. That's not in

634
00:22:31,049 --> 00:22:32,250
there. So does that mean it's in the

635
00:22:32,250 --> 00:22:34,269
unwritten order things? Right? So

636
00:22:34,569 --> 00:22:36,889
is this binding? Like, do these unwritten order

637
00:22:36,889 --> 00:22:39,849
things suddenly become written order things because they're

638
00:22:39,849 --> 00:22:42,990
written down? Right? Or maybe president Packard

639
00:22:43,404 --> 00:22:45,884
or elder Packard told BYU, like, hey. Don't

640
00:22:45,884 --> 00:22:47,724
publish this talk because I wanted to remain

641
00:22:47,724 --> 00:22:49,805
unwritten. Right? It can be spoken but not

642
00:22:49,805 --> 00:22:52,525
written. So is it binding? Well, one thing

643
00:22:52,525 --> 00:22:54,785
to consider is BYU didn't publish it. Right?

644
00:22:54,845 --> 00:22:56,464
Which shows a lack of endorsement

645
00:22:56,765 --> 00:23:00,190
by an institutional body of the church. And

646
00:23:00,409 --> 00:23:02,329
there is a lot of history about a

647
00:23:02,409 --> 00:23:04,349
an apostle publicly speaking

648
00:23:04,809 --> 00:23:07,470
about things that aren't necessarily accurate. I mean,

649
00:23:07,529 --> 00:23:10,490
elder McConaughey, elder Benson right there and there's

650
00:23:10,490 --> 00:23:13,115
several others where things are said, but it

651
00:23:13,115 --> 00:23:15,515
doesn't necessarily mean that they're that's now like

652
00:23:15,515 --> 00:23:17,515
law or it's binding or leaders have to

653
00:23:17,515 --> 00:23:19,755
do these things. The other thing that again,

654
00:23:19,755 --> 00:23:21,755
I don't think elder Packer was meaning for

655
00:23:21,755 --> 00:23:23,595
this to happen, but this can be very

656
00:23:23,595 --> 00:23:24,095
manipulative.

657
00:23:24,474 --> 00:23:27,399
Right? By using this arbitrary phrase or pointing

658
00:23:27,399 --> 00:23:30,119
toward this talk about some arbitrary, like things

659
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:31,720
that are done in the church and then

660
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,240
making someone feel like they have to do

661
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:34,919
a certain way because it's in the unwritten

662
00:23:34,919 --> 00:23:37,019
order of things. So I think it's weaponized

663
00:23:37,644 --> 00:23:39,325
in these ways too, and it can be

664
00:23:39,325 --> 00:23:41,325
manipulative to for a leader to get his

665
00:23:41,325 --> 00:23:43,164
way because he kinda just throws it in

666
00:23:43,164 --> 00:23:45,884
the unwritten order of things bucket. So is

667
00:23:45,884 --> 00:23:47,884
there a current unwritten order of things? I'd

668
00:23:47,884 --> 00:23:50,045
be interested to for you to, comment on

669
00:23:50,045 --> 00:23:52,240
this post in the leading saints community. And,

670
00:23:52,559 --> 00:23:54,799
yeah, what are some current unwritten order things

671
00:23:54,799 --> 00:23:55,700
that aren't mentioned

672
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:56,740
in

673
00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,460
Elder Packer's talk that still get perpetuated?

674
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,240
I think and hear me out here. Like,

675
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,640
in this commentary here that I'm giving, I'm

676
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,319
not saying, like, the unwritten order things are

677
00:24:06,319 --> 00:24:08,055
bad. Like, many of these unwritten order things

678
00:24:08,055 --> 00:24:10,154
I agree with. To me, it could be

679
00:24:10,154 --> 00:24:12,255
framed as leadership best practices, and that's what

680
00:24:12,255 --> 00:24:14,355
we try and do at Leading Saints. Right?

681
00:24:14,355 --> 00:24:16,455
That we're trying to broadcast and share as

682
00:24:16,455 --> 00:24:18,555
many leadership best practices as possible. Now there's

683
00:24:18,555 --> 00:24:20,654
oftentimes when I sit down with somebody to

684
00:24:20,654 --> 00:24:22,755
interview them and we're going through the interview,

685
00:24:22,755 --> 00:24:24,799
in my brain as they're talking about a

686
00:24:24,799 --> 00:24:27,680
certain concept, I'm thinking, I disagree with you

687
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,359
on that. Now sometimes I may bring it

688
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:31,279
up or say, you know, play the devil's

689
00:24:31,279 --> 00:24:32,420
advocate or whatever.

690
00:24:32,799 --> 00:24:34,400
But at the same time, I don't feel

691
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:35,965
like I'm not gonna pretend like I have

692
00:24:35,965 --> 00:24:37,485
it all figured out. And so maybe these

693
00:24:37,485 --> 00:24:39,565
principles of this other person sharing, these are

694
00:24:39,565 --> 00:24:40,545
just best practices.

695
00:24:40,924 --> 00:24:42,945
The thing with best practices, they could be

696
00:24:43,164 --> 00:24:45,884
adjusted or shot down or or disagreed with

697
00:24:45,884 --> 00:24:48,285
or you know, depending on where you live,

698
00:24:48,285 --> 00:24:49,424
you know, local adaptation

699
00:24:49,805 --> 00:24:52,599
should definitely play a role. Right? And so

700
00:24:52,900 --> 00:24:55,079
there is this other part of it that

701
00:24:55,140 --> 00:24:57,480
I call it the tyranny of general authority.

702
00:24:57,700 --> 00:24:59,940
Right? I mean, we love our general authorities.

703
00:24:59,940 --> 00:25:01,859
We have them visit our state conferences. We

704
00:25:01,859 --> 00:25:03,700
listen to them in in general conference and

705
00:25:04,024 --> 00:25:05,704
but it's so often the general authority can

706
00:25:05,704 --> 00:25:06,365
come to

707
00:25:06,825 --> 00:25:07,884
a stake or whatever

708
00:25:08,184 --> 00:25:10,505
and state something, and it comes with more

709
00:25:10,505 --> 00:25:12,845
weight as it should. Right? However,

710
00:25:13,544 --> 00:25:15,784
everybody in a state presidency has experienced this

711
00:25:15,784 --> 00:25:18,505
where visiting authorities come and sort of gone

712
00:25:18,505 --> 00:25:21,359
off about something about he's observing in the

713
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:22,880
stake, but he's literally only been there a

714
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:24,480
few hours. He doesn't have the breadth or

715
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,799
the scope that the stake presidency has about

716
00:25:26,799 --> 00:25:28,559
the different problems in the ward or in

717
00:25:28,559 --> 00:25:29,940
the stake. And so

718
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,799
it's completely appropriate for that stake president to

719
00:25:32,799 --> 00:25:34,404
say, I get the elder so and so

720
00:25:34,404 --> 00:25:36,424
felt this way about this thing. However,

721
00:25:37,205 --> 00:25:39,365
using the keys and perspective we have now

722
00:25:39,365 --> 00:25:41,684
that general authority has left, we will take

723
00:25:41,684 --> 00:25:43,924
his counsel and discuss it and counsel over

724
00:25:43,924 --> 00:25:44,664
it. However,

725
00:25:44,965 --> 00:25:46,565
we have a lot more information than he

726
00:25:46,565 --> 00:25:48,609
does. And so we're gonna continue on this

727
00:25:48,609 --> 00:25:50,869
path we're going or adjust it slightly different

728
00:25:51,250 --> 00:25:52,769
keeping in mind the things that we were

729
00:25:52,769 --> 00:25:55,250
instructed. Right? So that that tyranny of the

730
00:25:55,250 --> 00:25:56,849
general authority, and this is as I've had

731
00:25:56,849 --> 00:25:58,450
opportunity to meet with the priesthood and family

732
00:25:58,450 --> 00:26:00,825
department at the church, like, I don't envy

733
00:26:00,825 --> 00:26:02,825
them because they're in such a tough spot

734
00:26:02,825 --> 00:26:05,305
where they're writing handbooks for an international church.

735
00:26:05,305 --> 00:26:07,545
And so they can't put this or that

736
00:26:07,545 --> 00:26:09,884
thing in there because that may mean something

737
00:26:10,184 --> 00:26:11,865
in the church in Africa as opposed to

738
00:26:11,865 --> 00:26:13,980
the church in Latin America as opposed to

739
00:26:13,980 --> 00:26:16,380
The United States church. Right? And it hits

740
00:26:16,380 --> 00:26:18,080
differently, and so they have to be very

741
00:26:18,220 --> 00:26:20,299
intentional and be very broad or very careful

742
00:26:20,299 --> 00:26:21,740
with it what they put in there. Right?

743
00:26:21,740 --> 00:26:23,759
So an authority comes to town

744
00:26:24,059 --> 00:26:25,440
and makes an observation

745
00:26:25,980 --> 00:26:27,965
and makes a statement, sometimes we think, oh,

746
00:26:27,965 --> 00:26:29,565
I think that's sort of scripture. We have

747
00:26:29,565 --> 00:26:32,305
to do that. Right? And so with elder

748
00:26:32,445 --> 00:26:34,285
Packer going to BYU and saying these things,

749
00:26:34,285 --> 00:26:36,045
it comes with that heaviness of there's this

750
00:26:36,045 --> 00:26:37,505
feeling of, you know,

751
00:26:37,965 --> 00:26:40,420
this very meta moment here where, oh, I

752
00:26:40,420 --> 00:26:41,620
think you can see in the unwritten order

753
00:26:41,620 --> 00:26:42,740
of things that I have to do everything

754
00:26:42,740 --> 00:26:44,980
that a general authority says. Right? When in

755
00:26:44,980 --> 00:26:47,700
reality, we have beautiful theology about priesthood keys

756
00:26:47,700 --> 00:26:48,359
and authority

757
00:26:48,660 --> 00:26:51,559
that local church leaders can make those decisions

758
00:26:51,700 --> 00:26:54,315
and point in the right direction. Right? So,

759
00:26:54,535 --> 00:26:57,414
yeah, there are unwritten order things, and that's

760
00:26:57,414 --> 00:26:58,855
what we talk about, but they're more I'd

761
00:26:58,855 --> 00:27:00,634
like to frame them best as leadership

762
00:27:00,934 --> 00:27:01,755
best practices.

763
00:27:02,775 --> 00:27:04,234
Leadership through observation.

764
00:27:04,855 --> 00:27:06,695
This is really fascinating to me because, you

765
00:27:06,695 --> 00:27:08,455
know, elder Packer is sort of proponent of

766
00:27:08,455 --> 00:27:10,029
this. Like, some of the the best training

767
00:27:10,029 --> 00:27:11,869
he's got was being the state clerk and

768
00:27:11,869 --> 00:27:13,470
and observing the state president go about their

769
00:27:13,470 --> 00:27:14,910
business and things he learned when he was

770
00:27:14,910 --> 00:27:17,549
up in those positions. Right? And I could

771
00:27:17,549 --> 00:27:19,250
go throughout my

772
00:27:19,630 --> 00:27:22,184
journey of leadership and state, you know, leader

773
00:27:22,184 --> 00:27:24,025
after leader that I serve with and state

774
00:27:24,025 --> 00:27:25,464
several things that I learned from each leader.

775
00:27:25,464 --> 00:27:26,744
But I could probably go through each leader

776
00:27:26,744 --> 00:27:28,345
and say, you know, I observe the things

777
00:27:28,345 --> 00:27:30,025
that I'm definitely not gonna do that I

778
00:27:30,025 --> 00:27:32,105
definitely avoided. Right? So it's sort of this

779
00:27:32,105 --> 00:27:33,404
double edged sword here.

780
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,039
And we do have a tradition of learning

781
00:27:36,039 --> 00:27:37,339
leadership through observation.

782
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,059
And, unfortunately, that's kinda led to this

783
00:27:40,759 --> 00:27:41,419
hierarchy of,

784
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,359
like, you know, only bishopric members can become

785
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,599
bishops, and only former bishops can become state

786
00:27:46,599 --> 00:27:49,274
presidents, and only former presidents become mission presidents.

787
00:27:49,274 --> 00:27:51,914
Only former mission presidents become seventies. Right? Which

788
00:27:51,914 --> 00:27:53,615
I get and makes sense. However,

789
00:27:53,994 --> 00:27:55,054
there's a ton of priesthood

790
00:27:55,355 --> 00:27:57,034
that leaves out a ton of priesthood who

791
00:27:57,034 --> 00:27:58,095
never get an opportunity

792
00:27:58,394 --> 00:28:01,375
to serve in some of these incredible involved

793
00:28:01,950 --> 00:28:03,569
formal intense roles

794
00:28:04,109 --> 00:28:06,369
because they don't have that experience because just

795
00:28:06,429 --> 00:28:08,750
the math doesn't work out. Right? 40 people

796
00:28:08,750 --> 00:28:10,109
in a ward can't be bishop at the

797
00:28:10,109 --> 00:28:11,869
same time. Only one can. And so that

798
00:28:11,869 --> 00:28:13,630
leaves a lot of men to acquire that

799
00:28:13,630 --> 00:28:16,305
experience where I feel like if someone's been

800
00:28:16,305 --> 00:28:17,605
a stake president, maybe

801
00:28:17,904 --> 00:28:19,664
people who haven't been stake president should be

802
00:28:19,664 --> 00:28:21,984
considered as mission president. Again, it's not my

803
00:28:21,984 --> 00:28:23,904
it's not my role, but I'm just I'm

804
00:28:23,904 --> 00:28:25,984
just thinking, like, sometimes we get in this

805
00:28:25,984 --> 00:28:27,825
mode of thinking, well, they definitely need that

806
00:28:27,825 --> 00:28:30,789
experience that we can only call people who

807
00:28:30,789 --> 00:28:31,690
have observed

808
00:28:32,309 --> 00:28:34,649
that role. And, unfortunately, it perpetuates,

809
00:28:35,589 --> 00:28:38,149
bad traditions, bad leadership principles at the same

810
00:28:38,149 --> 00:28:40,230
time that it may perpetuate positive ones. I

811
00:28:40,230 --> 00:28:41,909
hope I hope that makes sense. I'm kinda

812
00:28:41,909 --> 00:28:43,589
treading lightly because I know it's a sensitive

813
00:28:43,589 --> 00:28:45,414
matter. So that can be good or bad.

814
00:28:45,634 --> 00:28:48,115
And another thing to consider is in leadership

815
00:28:48,115 --> 00:28:50,595
roles, like, let's make sure people are observing

816
00:28:50,595 --> 00:28:53,315
what's going on. Right? Sometimes easier said than

817
00:28:53,315 --> 00:28:55,394
done. But if you're a bishop, hopefully, your

818
00:28:55,394 --> 00:28:57,875
counselors are having opportunity to observe a lot

819
00:28:57,875 --> 00:28:59,669
of things that you're doing, not just the

820
00:28:59,669 --> 00:29:02,230
things that involve them. Right? And that way,

821
00:29:02,230 --> 00:29:04,089
that'll prepare them more. And so the more

822
00:29:04,149 --> 00:29:06,389
observing we can give to people, the better.

823
00:29:06,389 --> 00:29:07,829
And the more people can get in the

824
00:29:07,829 --> 00:29:09,909
room for these meetings or whatever I think

825
00:29:09,909 --> 00:29:11,829
is better. So maybe that's that's a a

826
00:29:11,829 --> 00:29:14,085
principle that a best practice you can take

827
00:29:14,085 --> 00:29:15,924
away from this is if you're in some

828
00:29:15,924 --> 00:29:18,244
of these more formal leadership roles, how can

829
00:29:18,244 --> 00:29:20,404
you get others involved to just even observe

830
00:29:20,404 --> 00:29:22,325
what you're doing and why you're making decisions

831
00:29:22,325 --> 00:29:24,325
and maybe take an extra minute or two

832
00:29:24,325 --> 00:29:25,845
as you make decisions? Let me tell you

833
00:29:25,845 --> 00:29:27,690
why I made that decision. Right? It's not

834
00:29:27,690 --> 00:29:29,690
always because the spirit told me to. It's

835
00:29:29,690 --> 00:29:32,169
sometimes, you know, I'm connecting some logic points

836
00:29:32,169 --> 00:29:34,329
here, and that's why I'm making the the

837
00:29:34,329 --> 00:29:35,149
point there.

838
00:29:35,450 --> 00:29:35,950
Alright.

839
00:29:36,329 --> 00:29:39,450
Principles verse prescriptions. He says in the unwritten

840
00:29:39,450 --> 00:29:41,869
order of things, a principle is an enduring

841
00:29:42,009 --> 00:29:44,914
truth, a law, a rule you can adopt

842
00:29:44,914 --> 00:29:46,295
to help you make decisions.

843
00:29:46,994 --> 00:29:49,575
Generally, principles are not spelled out in detail.

844
00:29:49,795 --> 00:29:52,035
That leaves you free to adapt and to

845
00:29:52,035 --> 00:29:54,835
find your way with an enduring truth, a

846
00:29:54,835 --> 00:29:55,335
principle

847
00:29:55,715 --> 00:29:57,880
as an anchor. The unwritten order thing is

848
00:29:57,880 --> 00:29:59,660
is like, he's presenting a principle

849
00:30:00,359 --> 00:30:03,000
that that doesn't you know, there's ways to

850
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,880
apply that principle differently. And I think sometimes

851
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,119
maybe he's he's blending the what a principle

852
00:30:08,119 --> 00:30:09,339
is and what's an application.

853
00:30:09,694 --> 00:30:11,214
He talks a lot about application in this

854
00:30:11,214 --> 00:30:12,734
talk when I think he's trying to anchor

855
00:30:12,734 --> 00:30:14,575
in the principle, but it's some more com

856
00:30:14,734 --> 00:30:17,375
complicated than that. So, again, this,

857
00:30:17,934 --> 00:30:19,714
commentary isn't necessarily to

858
00:30:20,095 --> 00:30:22,414
bash on the unwritten order of things or

859
00:30:22,414 --> 00:30:24,654
anybody's unwritten order of things. I think every

860
00:30:24,654 --> 00:30:26,859
leader should have an unwritten order of things.

861
00:30:26,859 --> 00:30:28,859
Or in other words, every leader should have

862
00:30:28,859 --> 00:30:29,599
best practices

863
00:30:30,140 --> 00:30:31,599
or every leader should feel

864
00:30:32,059 --> 00:30:34,000
in their it's in their right

865
00:30:34,380 --> 00:30:37,339
to establish some order of things. So for

866
00:30:37,339 --> 00:30:37,839
example,

867
00:30:38,194 --> 00:30:39,875
you may have I hear it all the

868
00:30:39,875 --> 00:30:42,054
time. A state president calls a high counselor.

869
00:30:42,275 --> 00:30:44,355
Well, that high counselor has a beard. So

870
00:30:44,355 --> 00:30:46,035
the high counselor comes in, and depending on

871
00:30:46,035 --> 00:30:47,815
how bold he wants to be, he says,

872
00:30:47,875 --> 00:30:49,954
I don't wanna shave my beard. And the

873
00:30:49,954 --> 00:30:51,809
state president says, well, I think you should.

874
00:30:51,809 --> 00:30:53,650
And then the guy responds, well, it's not

875
00:30:53,650 --> 00:30:55,410
in the handbook, is it? No. It's not

876
00:30:55,410 --> 00:30:57,170
in the handbook. Right? I still feel like

877
00:30:57,170 --> 00:30:59,990
the stake president has the right to ask.

878
00:31:00,130 --> 00:31:01,730
We're going to do things in a certain

879
00:31:01,730 --> 00:31:03,809
order here. Right? I would like you to

880
00:31:03,809 --> 00:31:05,250
shave your beard. Now if you say they

881
00:31:05,250 --> 00:31:07,505
can discuss that, maybe they the stake present

882
00:31:07,505 --> 00:31:09,505
makes an exception. I remember as a young

883
00:31:09,505 --> 00:31:11,825
bishop, I felt it was important as a

884
00:31:11,825 --> 00:31:13,664
unified body of the bishopric that we all

885
00:31:13,664 --> 00:31:15,265
come to church in suits or as we

886
00:31:15,265 --> 00:31:17,585
were out and about in our office or

887
00:31:17,585 --> 00:31:19,044
in our responsibility

888
00:31:19,585 --> 00:31:21,825
that we are doing so in in suits.

889
00:31:21,825 --> 00:31:23,259
Right? Now I think I'd be a little

890
00:31:23,259 --> 00:31:25,019
bit different today, you know, as far as

891
00:31:25,019 --> 00:31:26,720
making weekly visits or whatever.

892
00:31:27,019 --> 00:31:28,940
But especially on Sunday, when we're at church

893
00:31:28,940 --> 00:31:30,700
from doing the things, we need to be

894
00:31:30,700 --> 00:31:32,539
in a suit. Right? And if there's some

895
00:31:32,859 --> 00:31:34,859
if there's other concerns there that we know

896
00:31:34,859 --> 00:31:36,299
we can have that discussion. So I remember

897
00:31:36,299 --> 00:31:38,244
with one counselor kinda show up in all

898
00:31:38,244 --> 00:31:39,765
sorts of different things, and I had a

899
00:31:39,765 --> 00:31:41,285
brief moment with him and said, hey. Would

900
00:31:41,285 --> 00:31:43,045
you mind? I'd like to set a standard

901
00:31:43,045 --> 00:31:45,065
here that in our bishop we wear suits,

902
00:31:45,204 --> 00:31:47,444
you know, especially on Sunday. Right? He agreed

903
00:31:47,444 --> 00:31:49,365
and wore suits the entire time. Now it's

904
00:31:49,365 --> 00:31:51,785
not in the handbook. However, as a keyholder,

905
00:31:51,924 --> 00:31:54,460
as a person presiding, I had the right

906
00:31:54,460 --> 00:31:56,779
to establish an order of things. Right? And

907
00:31:56,779 --> 00:31:58,799
so I would hope every leader feels

908
00:31:59,259 --> 00:32:01,019
a right and a direction to set an

909
00:32:01,019 --> 00:32:03,019
order of things how you see fit. However,

910
00:32:03,019 --> 00:32:04,619
don't blame it on the unwritten order of

911
00:32:04,619 --> 00:32:06,380
things of Elder Packer does it. Right? That

912
00:32:06,380 --> 00:32:08,355
could be sometimes leaders go there like, well,

913
00:32:08,355 --> 00:32:09,634
you know, that's just how things are done

914
00:32:09,634 --> 00:32:11,075
and you can't argue with me because it's

915
00:32:11,075 --> 00:32:12,835
in the unwritten order of things. Like, sure.

916
00:32:12,835 --> 00:32:14,994
You can have a discussion and maybe that

917
00:32:14,994 --> 00:32:16,994
person is a good fit or maybe you

918
00:32:16,994 --> 00:32:20,240
can find, you know, common ground or, find

919
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,400
a place to land where, you know, compromise

920
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:23,759
that you can you can both live with.

921
00:32:23,759 --> 00:32:25,440
Right? And I would just make sure these

922
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,700
unwritten order things or these breast best practices

923
00:32:27,759 --> 00:32:30,320
aren't diminishing people. Alright? It's good to set

924
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,400
an order of things and find your way

925
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,559
to establish dignity, but hopefully it doesn't grind

926
00:32:34,559 --> 00:32:36,105
on people in a way like, I feel

927
00:32:36,105 --> 00:32:36,845
so restricted or

928
00:32:37,704 --> 00:32:40,105
can't be myself or I've just always had

929
00:32:40,105 --> 00:32:41,545
a beard. I've had a beard for forty

930
00:32:41,545 --> 00:32:43,384
years, and now I'm in this random calling

931
00:32:43,384 --> 00:32:44,585
and the state person wants me to shave

932
00:32:44,585 --> 00:32:46,505
the beard. You know? Like, hopefully, it's not

933
00:32:46,505 --> 00:32:49,304
diminishing people because then that's just not a

934
00:32:49,304 --> 00:32:51,659
good good place to be. A good reference

935
00:32:51,659 --> 00:32:53,899
for this is I did an interview with

936
00:32:53,899 --> 00:32:56,779
Anthony Sweat where he talked about doctrinal models.

937
00:32:56,779 --> 00:32:57,440
And, also,

938
00:32:57,899 --> 00:33:00,139
Michael Goodman has what I think it's on

939
00:33:00,139 --> 00:33:01,579
why religion about doctrinal

940
00:33:02,059 --> 00:33:03,179
oh, no. No. I did it on leading

941
00:33:03,179 --> 00:33:04,994
saints. That's right. He did one on why

942
00:33:04,994 --> 00:33:07,095
religion well, but we can link to that.

943
00:33:07,154 --> 00:33:09,015
Also, we talked about this as far as

944
00:33:09,394 --> 00:33:12,275
what makes doctrine doctrine. Right? So what turns

945
00:33:12,275 --> 00:33:14,355
the unwritten order things into doctrine or what

946
00:33:14,355 --> 00:33:16,454
turns something said in the handbook into doctrine?

947
00:33:16,595 --> 00:33:18,595
And so that might be a good path

948
00:33:18,595 --> 00:33:20,460
if you're kinda trying to figure this all

949
00:33:20,460 --> 00:33:22,299
out. Alright. As we conclude, I just wanna

950
00:33:22,299 --> 00:33:24,539
mention, like, every leader's got these unwritten order

951
00:33:24,539 --> 00:33:26,160
of things. They've got these best practices.

952
00:33:26,619 --> 00:33:28,460
A few that I've seen that aren't necessarily

953
00:33:28,460 --> 00:33:30,539
connected to a specific leader, maybe if you

954
00:33:30,539 --> 00:33:33,065
do know who who first started these, let

955
00:33:33,065 --> 00:33:34,984
me know. When is that the presiding authority

956
00:33:34,984 --> 00:33:36,744
speaks last? Nobody can stand up and talk

957
00:33:36,744 --> 00:33:39,065
after him. I think that's just been general

958
00:33:39,065 --> 00:33:41,464
tradition and general conference spilled over to the

959
00:33:41,464 --> 00:33:43,464
local church. You know, in the past, men

960
00:33:43,464 --> 00:33:44,605
have prayed last.

961
00:33:44,950 --> 00:33:47,269
I think, you know, the or it's always

962
00:33:47,269 --> 00:33:49,109
been said that the a priesthood holder has

963
00:33:49,109 --> 00:33:51,190
to close out a meeting. Right? Or if

964
00:33:51,190 --> 00:33:52,730
a couple speaks or,

965
00:33:53,269 --> 00:33:54,549
a man always has to be the last

966
00:33:54,549 --> 00:33:56,390
speaker in sacrament. I think we're past that

967
00:33:56,390 --> 00:33:58,205
pretty well, but you see these crop up

968
00:33:58,205 --> 00:34:00,445
all the time. Right? And sometimes it's good

969
00:34:00,445 --> 00:34:02,684
in the best practices kind of go against

970
00:34:02,684 --> 00:34:04,125
these for the sake of making sure they

971
00:34:04,125 --> 00:34:05,965
don't perpetuate when there's not a good reason.

972
00:34:05,965 --> 00:34:07,644
Right? I think we always say, like, before

973
00:34:07,644 --> 00:34:09,085
you tear down a fence, figure out why

974
00:34:09,085 --> 00:34:10,285
it was put up. Well, if you can't

975
00:34:10,285 --> 00:34:11,789
figure out why the defense was put up,

976
00:34:11,869 --> 00:34:12,690
maybe you should consider taking

977
00:34:12,989 --> 00:34:14,989
it to them. Right? What about president Nelson?

978
00:34:14,989 --> 00:34:17,390
Does he have unwritten order of things? Well,

979
00:34:17,390 --> 00:34:18,989
yeah, he does, and they've actually been written

980
00:34:18,989 --> 00:34:21,550
down. For example, there wasn't an emphasis on

981
00:34:21,550 --> 00:34:23,390
taking the sacramental with your right hand in

982
00:34:23,390 --> 00:34:26,164
the handbook until president Nelson became the prophet.

983
00:34:26,164 --> 00:34:28,005
So that might be something that he feels

984
00:34:28,005 --> 00:34:30,485
strongly about or his administration or whatever is

985
00:34:30,485 --> 00:34:32,085
felt strongly about to put it in the

986
00:34:32,085 --> 00:34:34,324
handbook. And it might go away, maybe in

987
00:34:34,324 --> 00:34:36,324
another prophet or two. Right? The use of

988
00:34:36,324 --> 00:34:37,925
the word Mormon or the use of the

989
00:34:37,925 --> 00:34:39,445
full name of the Church of Jesus Christ

990
00:34:39,445 --> 00:34:41,660
Latter day Saints. Right? That was a unwritten

991
00:34:41,660 --> 00:34:43,579
order of things that president Nelson felt strongly

992
00:34:43,579 --> 00:34:45,260
about to put in the handbook. Now I

993
00:34:45,260 --> 00:34:47,500
would be surprised if maybe future prophets kinda

994
00:34:47,500 --> 00:34:49,180
go more lax on that. Right? Or they'll

995
00:34:49,180 --> 00:34:51,099
see another emphasis or another way to that.

996
00:34:51,099 --> 00:34:52,700
President Hinckley was more lax on that. He

997
00:34:52,700 --> 00:34:55,214
was intentional about being more lax on that.

998
00:34:55,214 --> 00:34:56,434
President Nelson's also

999
00:34:56,974 --> 00:34:58,974
talked about when you give a baby blessing

1000
00:34:58,974 --> 00:34:59,694
to speak to

1001
00:35:00,335 --> 00:35:02,255
that you're giving the blessing to the child,

1002
00:35:02,255 --> 00:35:04,494
not praying to God. Right? That wasn't in

1003
00:35:04,494 --> 00:35:06,094
the handbook before, and now it is. Right?

1004
00:35:06,094 --> 00:35:07,775
So he's clarified some of these things, and

1005
00:35:07,775 --> 00:35:10,119
that could change. I know president Hinckley, I

1006
00:35:10,119 --> 00:35:11,320
think it was on my mission when he

1007
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,320
gave the talk about sort of get doing

1008
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,260
away with mission farewells and homecomings.

1009
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:17,880
And that did, to some degree, end up

1010
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:19,639
in the it's kinda vague, but it is

1011
00:35:19,639 --> 00:35:22,219
in the handbook now. Alright. So the conclusion.

1012
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,125
What can we take away from this? I

1013
00:35:24,125 --> 00:35:25,964
would just say the more autonomy a local

1014
00:35:25,964 --> 00:35:27,425
leader has, the more effective

1015
00:35:27,804 --> 00:35:28,784
the church is.

1016
00:35:29,085 --> 00:35:31,644
And I think that's good advice. Obviously, I

1017
00:35:31,644 --> 00:35:33,405
don't know how many general authorities listen to

1018
00:35:33,405 --> 00:35:35,484
this, but something to consider, but for maybe

1019
00:35:35,484 --> 00:35:36,224
stake leaders.

1020
00:35:36,525 --> 00:35:38,969
Right? The more restriction or the more unwritten

1021
00:35:38,969 --> 00:35:40,969
order of things or best practices you kinda

1022
00:35:40,969 --> 00:35:42,269
lay on the local leaders,

1023
00:35:42,650 --> 00:35:44,570
it actually can make them feel more restrictive

1024
00:35:44,570 --> 00:35:47,070
and diminish them as leaders. Give them autonomy.

1025
00:35:47,210 --> 00:35:49,210
You know, obviously, reference the handbook, but say,

1026
00:35:49,210 --> 00:35:51,074
you know, try some things out. What's your

1027
00:35:51,074 --> 00:35:53,554
style of leadership? Right? So the more autonomy

1028
00:35:53,554 --> 00:35:55,155
local leaders have, the more effective the church

1029
00:35:55,155 --> 00:35:58,034
is. And so communicate your unwritten order things.

1030
00:35:58,034 --> 00:36:00,594
Don't just make the assumption or think that

1031
00:36:00,594 --> 00:36:02,755
people are gonna just observe them and start

1032
00:36:02,755 --> 00:36:04,594
doing them. Right? If you feel strongly about

1033
00:36:04,594 --> 00:36:07,489
how to order things in your jurisdiction, then

1034
00:36:07,489 --> 00:36:10,210
articulate it, communicate it. Right? It does set

1035
00:36:10,210 --> 00:36:12,550
a tone for the culture. I love that

1036
00:36:12,769 --> 00:36:15,090
the scripture in first Corinthians that let all

1037
00:36:15,090 --> 00:36:16,550
things be done decently

1038
00:36:17,010 --> 00:36:19,485
and in order. That sound advice. Right? But,

1039
00:36:19,644 --> 00:36:21,405
again, it's just about communicating these things. And

1040
00:36:21,405 --> 00:36:22,445
I think if you do it in the

1041
00:36:22,445 --> 00:36:23,965
spirit of, listen, I'm not trying to be

1042
00:36:23,965 --> 00:36:25,565
like a tyrannical leader or tell you how

1043
00:36:25,565 --> 00:36:27,005
to do your things, but I feel like

1044
00:36:27,005 --> 00:36:29,164
this will bring strength to our culture. It'll

1045
00:36:29,164 --> 00:36:30,765
establish a tone when we show up to

1046
00:36:30,765 --> 00:36:32,285
church. It'll establish a tone when we come

1047
00:36:32,285 --> 00:36:34,320
to meetings. It'll establish a a tone in

1048
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,420
everything we do, which will then perpetuate

1049
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,200
more people coming to Jesus Christ being drawn

1050
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,599
to us. Right? Now and, hopefully, as a

1051
00:36:41,599 --> 00:36:43,200
leader, you can put some of these things

1052
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,119
up open for debate. Try and convince me

1053
00:36:45,119 --> 00:36:46,400
that this is a bad way to do

1054
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,405
it. What problems do you see? Right? And

1055
00:36:48,405 --> 00:36:49,525
you may get to a point of saying,

1056
00:36:49,525 --> 00:36:50,965
I see your point. However, this is just

1057
00:36:50,965 --> 00:36:52,885
the way we're gonna do it. Right? And

1058
00:36:52,885 --> 00:36:54,965
so that's the power of keys, but hopefully

1059
00:36:54,965 --> 00:36:56,885
you're using them rather than just saying, well,

1060
00:36:56,885 --> 00:36:58,885
it doesn't say in the handbook and, you

1061
00:36:58,885 --> 00:37:01,010
know, or it's in their unwritten order of

1062
00:37:01,010 --> 00:37:03,730
things. Right? Sort of vague or it's you

1063
00:37:03,730 --> 00:37:06,050
kind of feel it like you're some leaders

1064
00:37:06,050 --> 00:37:07,489
frame it as if they're a victim to

1065
00:37:07,489 --> 00:37:09,250
the system. Right? That, well, my hands are

1066
00:37:09,250 --> 00:37:10,849
tied here because of the unwritten order of

1067
00:37:10,849 --> 00:37:12,824
things. Like, what are you talking about? Right?

1068
00:37:12,824 --> 00:37:14,585
Of course, some general guidance is needed, and

1069
00:37:14,585 --> 00:37:15,724
that's why we have the handbooks.

1070
00:37:16,184 --> 00:37:17,945
We always that's a a big part of

1071
00:37:17,945 --> 00:37:19,385
what we do at Leading Saints. We always

1072
00:37:19,385 --> 00:37:21,704
encourage the handbook that people should follow it

1073
00:37:21,704 --> 00:37:24,105
and, and consider it. I talked about the

1074
00:37:24,105 --> 00:37:25,644
visiting authority, the

1075
00:37:26,070 --> 00:37:27,450
tyranny of general authority

1076
00:37:27,829 --> 00:37:29,910
that sometimes the general authority comes and becomes,

1077
00:37:29,910 --> 00:37:32,550
like, solidified in law because he said something.

1078
00:37:32,550 --> 00:37:34,630
And these crop up in all all levels

1079
00:37:34,630 --> 00:37:36,150
of the church. I saw a clip online.

1080
00:37:36,150 --> 00:37:38,070
I'm not gonna share it because I don't

1081
00:37:38,070 --> 00:37:39,910
wanna promote the people that are putting it

1082
00:37:39,910 --> 00:37:41,369
out there, but it was a clip where

1083
00:37:41,744 --> 00:37:43,824
an apostle was in it seemed like a

1084
00:37:43,904 --> 00:37:45,824
there was an interpreter for so it was

1085
00:37:45,824 --> 00:37:47,605
a non English speaking country,

1086
00:37:48,065 --> 00:37:49,744
and I guess it was maybe a humid

1087
00:37:49,744 --> 00:37:51,684
client, a hot climate. And this apostle

1088
00:37:52,065 --> 00:37:54,065
takes off his jacket, and he kinda says,

1089
00:37:54,065 --> 00:37:55,400
you know, I'm gonna it's kinda hot in

1090
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:56,680
here. I'm gonna take off my jacket. And

1091
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:58,860
then the 70 that's in the room,

1092
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:00,380
it says into the mic,

1093
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,079
we always take our jackets off when the

1094
00:38:03,079 --> 00:38:05,579
presiding authority does. Like, what?

1095
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:07,594
Right? I remember in the eighties, that was

1096
00:38:07,594 --> 00:38:09,594
sort of the thing that you couldn't take

1097
00:38:09,594 --> 00:38:11,675
your jacket off unless the presiding authority could.

1098
00:38:11,675 --> 00:38:13,835
There's even a clip during, I think, priesthood

1099
00:38:13,835 --> 00:38:15,994
meeting. President Benson is the president of the

1100
00:38:15,994 --> 00:38:17,775
church, and it's hot in the tabernacle.

1101
00:38:18,155 --> 00:38:20,414
And he takes off his jacket, invites everybody

1102
00:38:21,059 --> 00:38:23,239
to take off their suit jacket as well.

1103
00:38:23,380 --> 00:38:25,140
Can you not take off your jacket unless

1104
00:38:25,140 --> 00:38:27,140
the presiding authority well, I'm probably gonna take

1105
00:38:27,140 --> 00:38:28,579
off my jacket if I'm hot. Right? It's

1106
00:38:28,579 --> 00:38:30,019
just these silly things. Like, what do we

1107
00:38:30,180 --> 00:38:31,780
why was that fence put up? What are

1108
00:38:31,780 --> 00:38:33,865
we doing? Right? So it was worth worth

1109
00:38:33,865 --> 00:38:34,365
considering.

1110
00:38:34,825 --> 00:38:37,704
Again, these are all best practices. We encourage

1111
00:38:37,704 --> 00:38:39,865
you that to seek out best practices even

1112
00:38:39,865 --> 00:38:42,125
through Leading Saints, disagree with them,

1113
00:38:42,425 --> 00:38:44,045
champion others that you like,

1114
00:38:44,345 --> 00:38:46,505
get jump into the discussion, tell us how

1115
00:38:46,505 --> 00:38:48,445
you are you approach your leadership

1116
00:38:48,769 --> 00:38:50,929
in order and and so forth, but we'd

1117
00:38:50,929 --> 00:38:52,550
love to hear that. Overall,

1118
00:38:53,010 --> 00:38:54,530
join with me as I invite you. Let's

1119
00:38:54,530 --> 00:38:56,050
be done with this term of the unwritten

1120
00:38:56,050 --> 00:38:57,569
order of things. Try not to throw it

1121
00:38:57,569 --> 00:38:59,089
around. Try not to use it, but to

1122
00:38:59,089 --> 00:39:00,929
me to say, these are some leadership best

1123
00:39:00,929 --> 00:39:02,795
practices. This is what I believe. Maybe disagree

1124
00:39:02,795 --> 00:39:04,474
with these, but these are my leadership best

1125
00:39:04,474 --> 00:39:05,835
practices, and so I might need to do

1126
00:39:05,835 --> 00:39:06,954
them. Or this is the way that we're

1127
00:39:06,954 --> 00:39:08,755
gonna order things in in our stake or

1128
00:39:08,755 --> 00:39:10,234
in our ward or what in our relief

1129
00:39:10,234 --> 00:39:14,010
society, whatever organization you preside over. So let's

1130
00:39:14,010 --> 00:39:15,610
be done with the unwritten order of things

1131
00:39:15,610 --> 00:39:18,030
and just talk talk about leadership best practices,

1132
00:39:18,090 --> 00:39:20,730
things in the handbook. Right? Alright. That includes

1133
00:39:20,730 --> 00:39:23,150
this commentary on the unwritten order of things.

1134
00:39:23,289 --> 00:39:24,969
Now we have this link that you can

1135
00:39:24,969 --> 00:39:26,250
send to people. If you ever hear this

1136
00:39:26,250 --> 00:39:27,769
term unwritten order of things, you can say,

1137
00:39:27,769 --> 00:39:29,714
hey. Wait a minute. I have a podcast

1138
00:39:29,714 --> 00:39:30,214
episode

1139
00:39:30,594 --> 00:39:32,674
that you need to listen to because that

1140
00:39:32,674 --> 00:39:34,835
term is what's this guy talking about? I

1141
00:39:34,835 --> 00:39:36,434
need to go listen to this talk. Well,

1142
00:39:36,434 --> 00:39:37,974
like I said, it's not on the BYU

1143
00:39:38,275 --> 00:39:39,335
website. However,

1144
00:39:39,875 --> 00:39:41,875
I did read the talk and record it,

1145
00:39:41,875 --> 00:39:44,519
and so we're gonna put that probably in

1146
00:39:44,599 --> 00:39:46,760
another episode that'll come out right after this.

1147
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:48,440
So you can listen to that if you

1148
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,079
want to listen to the full me reading

1149
00:39:51,079 --> 00:39:53,079
the full transcript of the talk, and that

1150
00:39:53,079 --> 00:39:55,320
will give you more perspective to share. And

1151
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:57,239
maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we need to champion

1152
00:39:57,239 --> 00:39:59,904
this term of unwritten order things and get

1153
00:39:59,904 --> 00:40:02,464
it out there, but let me know. Go

1154
00:40:02,464 --> 00:40:03,904
listen to it and check it out. But

1155
00:40:03,904 --> 00:40:05,664
hopefully, I wish you the best in in

1156
00:40:05,664 --> 00:40:08,784
leadership that you can, create order, create dignity

1157
00:40:08,784 --> 00:40:11,424
and respect in in this beautiful restored church

1158
00:40:11,424 --> 00:40:13,440
that we function in. Just don't use it

1159
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:14,260
as manipulation

1160
00:40:14,639 --> 00:40:16,480
or to get your way to to blame

1161
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,159
it on the unwritten order of things. Let's

1162
00:40:18,159 --> 00:40:19,219
set our new standard,

1163
00:40:19,519 --> 00:40:22,340
new best practices, and, bring people to Christ

1164
00:40:22,559 --> 00:40:24,494
in the church through our leadership and the

1165
00:40:24,494 --> 00:40:25,474
culture that we

1166
00:40:26,974 --> 00:40:27,474
develop.

1167
00:40:32,655 --> 00:40:35,295
That concludes this episode of the leading saints

1168
00:40:35,295 --> 00:40:37,135
podcast. Hey, listen. Would you do me a

1169
00:40:37,135 --> 00:40:39,510
favor? You know, everybody's got that friend who

1170
00:40:39,510 --> 00:40:41,130
listens to a ton of podcasts,

1171
00:40:41,430 --> 00:40:43,670
and maybe they aren't aware of Leading Saints.

1172
00:40:43,670 --> 00:40:45,590
So would you mind taking the link of

1173
00:40:45,590 --> 00:40:48,150
this episode or another episode of Leading Saints

1174
00:40:48,150 --> 00:40:50,230
and just texting it to that friend? You

1175
00:40:50,230 --> 00:40:52,184
know who I'm talking about. The friend who

1176
00:40:52,184 --> 00:40:54,585
always listens to podcasts and is always telling

1177
00:40:54,585 --> 00:40:56,425
you about different podcasts. Well, it's your turn

1178
00:40:56,425 --> 00:40:58,684
to tell that friend about Leading Saints.

1179
00:40:58,985 --> 00:41:00,825
So share it. We'd also love to hear

1180
00:41:00,825 --> 00:41:02,744
from you. If you have any perspective or

1181
00:41:02,744 --> 00:41:04,344
thought on this episode, you can go to

1182
00:41:04,344 --> 00:41:05,385
leadingsaints.org

1183
00:41:05,385 --> 00:41:08,079
and actually leave a comment on the, episode

1184
00:41:08,079 --> 00:41:10,239
page, or reach out to us at leading

1185
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:11,780
saints dot org slash contact.

1186
00:41:12,079 --> 00:41:14,239
And remember, to get on the email newsletter

1187
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,139
list, simply go to leadingsaints.org/fourteen.

1188
00:41:27,114 --> 00:41:29,695
It came as a result of the position

1189
00:41:29,755 --> 00:41:32,735
of leadership which was imposed upon us

1190
00:41:33,190 --> 00:41:35,210
by the God of heaven who brought

1191
00:41:35,510 --> 00:41:38,809
forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus

1192
00:41:38,949 --> 00:41:39,449
Christ.

1193
00:41:40,150 --> 00:41:41,130
When the declaration

1194
00:41:41,510 --> 00:41:43,849
was made concerning the only

1195
00:41:44,550 --> 00:41:46,949
true and living Church upon the face of

1196
00:41:46,949 --> 00:41:47,610
the earth,

1197
00:41:48,184 --> 00:41:50,844
We were immediately put in a position of

1198
00:41:50,985 --> 00:41:51,485
loneliness,

1199
00:41:51,864 --> 00:41:53,405
the loneliness of leadership

1200
00:41:54,105 --> 00:41:57,085
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,

1201
00:41:57,864 --> 00:42:00,264
and to which we must face up with

1202
00:42:00,264 --> 00:42:01,804
boldness and courage

1203
00:42:02,344 --> 00:42:03,085
and ability.