Anthony Sweat has easily become one of my
favorite BYU professors to interview. He's been on
the podcast several times, and he also has
a remarkable presentation about ambiguity of doctrine in
our Questioning Saints virtual library.
He discusses healthy and unhealthy ways we approach
doctrine, how to help others reconcile doctrine they
find difficult to believe, especially when we don't
know much about it. You can watch professor
Sweatt's entire interview in the Questioning Saints library
by going to leadingsaints.org/fourteen.
This will give you access for fourteen days
at no cost to watch this presentation.
You'll be better prepared as a leader when
you do.
I would be rude if I didn't take
the time to explain to the newer listeners
what Leading Saints is. Here goes.
Leading Saints is an organization that started as
a hobby blog in 02/2010
and then really caught some traction in 02/2014
when the podcast started.
We talk about all things leadership in the
context of The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter day Saints. We aren't owned by the
church, but we have a great relationship with
them and always aim to be faith promoting
even though we talk about the tough topics.
My name is Kurt Frankem. I'm generally the
voice you hear as the host of the
podcast.
I've tried to get other hosts, but people
demand my smooth tone,
and I really enjoy it. Check out leadingsaints.org
to really get into the weeds of what
Leading Saints is and learn all about our
mission to help Latter day Saints be better
prepared to lead. The following episode is a
throwback episode, one that was published previously and
was extremely popular. To see the details of
when this was originally published, see the show
notes. Enjoy this throwback episode.
Today, I'm in Downtown Salt Lake City at
the Church History Library with Jenny Reeder. How
are you, Jenny? I'm great. I'm so happy
to be downtown
again. You you've had you spent some time
away from your I did. Main office building,
right, like many of us? Yes. Awesome. And,
and so how how do you describe your
your role here at the church in the,
I guess, the church history department is would
be accurate? Yes. I am the
nineteenth century women's history specialist in the church
history department. I were I'm in the publications
division, and so I work quite a bit
on
the church historian's press, editorial board, and website,
and producing women's writings
for that. That's awesome. And so you get
to read read some pretty cool journals and
letters and find information that hasn't been read
in maybe decades. Right? Yeah. Lately, I've been
working mostly with, Minute Books.
Minute Books, they used to keep minutes of
their meetings. So relief societies and primaries and
young women as I'm tracing Eliza r Snow
with her discourses.
Yeah. It's a lot of fun. That's cool.
Yeah. Minutes is something it's a it's a
lost art. I'm probably we probably should do
better at giving minutes in our meetings, but,
you know, we we do our best. But
That's right. Now your name you'll is will
pop up in Desert Book. You recently read
a Yes. Wrote a book about Emma. Right?
That's right. I just published a book. It's
called First, The Life and Faith of Emma
Smith.
And
I had such a great experience writing it.
It was hard.
There was a lot of digging to do,
but she didn't leave a lot of her
own words. And a lot of the contemporary
sources, contemporary primary sources
are
hard to
find. But because of the access I had
to the Joseph Smith papers, I was able
to
dig out a lot. And I also traveled
to the community of Christ, the former reorganized
church
in
Independence, Missouri, and able to find even more
of Emma's own words after Joseph died. So
it was a lot of it was fascinating.
And I learned a lot. I had to
kind of speculate a lot, but I was
I tried to be very clear Yeah. In
stating what I didn't know, but what we
we could somehow put pieces together. Yeah. So
what was the overall goal of that book
as you were beginning to write it? So
Deseret Book reached out to me and asked
me to write it. And my overall goal
coincided
with what the General Relief Society presidency
wanted. They wanted me to write about Emma
as
a pillar of the restoration
and as
a significant
founder of the church with Joseph. They were
particularly
interested in polygamy
because I that's a question that plagues many
people today.
Also, Emma's political activism
and
her business propriety,
also
her life after Joseph died. Yeah. And these
are all things that I think we don't
we don't
talk about a whole lot.
And
my purpose,
in addition to that, was to make Emma
a real woman,
to show how complicated she was and how
complicated her life was and how
committed she was, but also how her heart
was broken in so many different ways.
I wanted to do that to show that
women today and church members today and men
today I don't want to divide it up
by gender
need to realize how important a role we
play and what President Nelson calls the continuing
restoration,
but also that Emma was
helped make Joseph who he was, and that
we need to continue that kind of
work together, partnership, companionship,
complimentary
assistance to each other as we serve in
the church and as we build the kingdom.
Yeah. So what do you think is the
biggest misconception we have about Emma? Oh, that's
such a fun question.
That's maybe its own podcast episode. I know.
Right? I actually think it's it's that
so many members of the church
were influenced by
Brigham Young and his generation in thinking that
Emma was,
a bad person, that she had fallen or
that she had lost her testimony and left
the church
because she didn't come west with the other
pioneers.
And that's, I mean, that is a good
point.
However, I think that if we look more
into Emma's life, especially that period after Joseph's
death, we can see how she indeed kept
her testimony and her conviction of the Book
of Mormon and and then the role of
her husband as the prophet,
and how much she loved
her children, her adult children, and what kind
of relationship she had with them.
She did have tension with Brigham Young, but
I think at the very end of her
life, there's a story of
her a dream that she had right before
she died, where Joseph came for her and
took her to a mansion. And in the
mansion was one of her babies that she
had lost at the age of 14.
And she picked him up and Joseph said,
you'll have all of them. And then she
turned and saw the savior, Jesus Christ.
And so that's why I think Emma's is
a story of redemption. And if we go
to the end, we can see that. Yeah.
And didn't Joseph say something like, I'll go
to the depths of hell for Yeah. Emma.
Right? And it's funny because sometimes that's misquoted.
But the actual occurrence of when that happened,
Joseph was watching Emma. I don't know what
she was doing, whether she was
hosting an event in their home
or what. But he kinda leaned over to
someone who was sitting next to him or
standing next to him and said,
man, I would go to hell for that
woman. Oh, yeah. Like, as a total compliment
of how much he loved her and how
much he would do for her. But that
also got twisted. Interesting. And I think Brigham
Young was part of that just in saying
he's going to have to go to hell
to get her. Yeah. That's not Yeah. And
it and it it's funny because it was
about a hundred years before people really began
to look into Emma as a significant
part of the restoration. They always kind of
fell into that
that habit of thinking about her. Yeah. The
human nature was, in all of us. And,
you know, in the history,
of all these individuals. So
so I I wanna dig in with our
point of this interview, and I'm excited to
explore
not only Emma, but some of these other
stalwart pillars of leadership,
women
in in the history of the church. And,
you know, it's we hear all these stories
and, you know, growing up in the church
going through Come Follow Me with Doctrine Comes,
you hear, you know, similar stories over and
over again. And sometimes these names that maybe
didn't make it in the Doctrine and Covenants
or some of the well known history,
historical manuals, we we miss we skip over
them and lose some of that rich history.
So we're gonna dive into that. But first,
I wanna pivot to a little bit of
your personal history because, you're a cancer survivor.
Right? I am. I am. I some I
sometimes hesitate to use the word survivor because
I
my cancer, my leukemia has recurred four times
Oh, wow. Since 02/2010.
So I don't know. I mean, I guess
I'm a survivor of those those four times,
but in the back of my head, I'm
always worried that it's gonna come back.
And there's a there's a chance. Yeah. But
the more that I go, I've been in
remission since 2017.
Oh, wow. So that's a really long time.
And the more time that passes, the less
chance of it coming back.
So I'm I'm delighted with that. And I
it's funny though, because I've noticed how it's
really affected my life physically.
I get so tired. I used to be
a marathon runner. I used to do body
pump at the gym, and I've just realized
that I can't do that anymore. Yeah. And
that's okay. I can do other things, but
I'm just
not the old Jenny. Yeah. Yeah. And,
I mean, again, that's a whole I'm sure
there's a personal history in the writing somewhere
about those things, but it's interesting that you
went through this,
this cancer experience while you were Relief Society
president. Yes. And I would imagine I mean,
most bishops out there are thinking the Relief
Society president has cancer. Let's release her and
at least take that off her plate. Right?
But I think there is a hidden blessing
in maybe allowing you to stay there. So
maybe what what's the story behind that? So
I was living in Northern Virginia. I was
in graduate school at George Mason University. So
I lived in
South Arlington,
Virginia, just outside of DC.
And I had the greatest ward. It was
the I,
I, I don't know that I can have
ever have another ward like that. It was
just a very high functioning
ward. And my Bishop
had called me to be Relief Society President
in
September, I think it was, of 2010.
And within the next couple of months, we
had,
an older woman who passed away.
And then we had a baby who was
born with trisomy nineteen who passed away.
And then in November I was diagnosed with
leukemia. So it was just like, boom, boom,
boom, crazy stuff all in a row.
But my Bishop, he and I got along
very well. He's a dear friend. He's still
a dear friend of mine. And he really
wanted to keep me in. It was something
he said immediately after my diagnosis.
He really wanted to keep me in that
position.
I had incredible counselors
who were able to shoulder a lot of
what I couldn't do, but I actually did
lead from my hospital bed or my bedroom
at home. In fact, this is back in
02/2010. And when I was in the hospital,
the elders corps president really wanted to loop
me in to ward council. And so he
this is before Zoom. Right? Yeah. And I
don't know how he figured it out, but
he got a camera for my computer.
And
so I was a part of that for
my hospital bed, and it was so cool.
And then later on, I realized, you know,
there are really great things
that I can do. I think I can
visit
or have
less active members visit me at home because
they're not gonna say no to going to
visit a cancer ridden relief society president. Yeah.
Right? And then another thing my bishop taught
me was that I needed to learn how
to receive service.
So I had an incredible compassionate service leader
who made a calendar
and people signed up to take me to
appointments
when I was home and couldn't drive or
to bring me meals or even to come
visit me in the afternoons. I had, I
had three roommates who worked all day. And
so it was just nice to have someone
come and check-in with me. And sometimes it
was
one time it was Marian Anderson and she
just sat on the stairs and cried with
me. It'd been a hard day, but she
just put her arm around me and cried
with me. And that was so powerful.
And other times someone would come over and
vacuum my floor, and I felt so dumb
asking someone to vacuum my floor.
It was an incredible experience. And I got
to know those women in my relief society
on, on such a deep level.
I also loved, sending emails and sending cards
in the mail, old school snail mail,
But it was so funny because I could
feel the spirit directing me in writing to
know what they wanted, what they needed to
hear. And it was almost like I was
giving them
blessings
through a pen and a cheap card from
the dollar spot at Target.
I was completely aware of what they needed
and it was actually a really beautiful time.
It saved me in a way to be
able to have that kind of distraction.
Yeah.
Instead of curling up in a ball and,
and staying in bed all day. Yeah. And
that's what I'm intrigued by is that when
you get a cancer diagnosis, I mean, obviously
your priorities go from many to like
one is, which is I need to stay
alive. I need to figure or am I
going to die? Like, I mean, I would
imagine I know I can see my
my brain going this direction of just obsessing
over that. Like, you know, am I going
gonna be here in five years, you know,
in three years. Right? And so how did
in that state of mind, without that that
heaviness and trauma, how do you even begin
to reply to an email or say, Yeah,
what should we do for, you know, Relief
Society? You know, I think that's a really
good question. And I think that was the
first time and then after that several times
in the hospital where I felt like I
was reduced to numbers,
my blood counts, and my
weight, and how much I was intaking and
outputting, and how much what how many red
blood cells, and how many platelets, and how
many white blood cells, and neutrophils, and all
these other things. So I think it was
me fighting to remember that I was more
than a number,
and that was what kept me going. Yeah.
And it was incredible.
Yeah. And did you feel like I mean,
because you need purpose in life. I mean
and we all do, but especially those who
maybe are facing a dramatic
a dramatic diagnosis like that. Were there moments
you had to sort of push through to
reach that purpose? Absolutely.
Yeah. Like, all the time. Yeah.
Like, even just I I remember thinking
and every once in a while, I still
think this because I I'm dealing with a
lot of side effects, and I still have
to take a lot of meds. Nothing like
what I had to take before.
But just thinking every day, I have to
get up and get out of bed and
take a whole bunch of pills and do
it all over again. It felt like a
decision I had to make every day.
Okay.
Alright, reader. Let's get out of bed. Alright,
reader. Let's take your pills.
So it was a completely different life than
I had lived before. Yeah. And that's inspiring.
Just it's just the little things, the little
steps of I'm gonna get out of bed.
And I know this Relief Society birthday party
probably doesn't matter in the scheme of eternity
in my life, but today that's going to
give me purpose and Yeah, absolutely. Belief blessing,
right? Yes, absolutely. So, I mean, what would
you say to that, that leader that maybe
has that knee jerk reaction of, okay, this
person has a whether it's a diagnosis, whether
it's a tough time in their marriage, whether
whatever it is, we wanted to say, oh,
well, let's help them by releasing them. But
any and I get it. There's going to
be situations where that may be appropriate. But
how can we better step back and consider
that? I think that's a really good question.
In fact, today, I I had lunch with
a coworker,
and she's single.
She has a brother who she's caring for
who was in a really bad accident and
is now a quadriplegic.
So and she was just called as Relief
Society president.
And so I think that
it's an incredible
opportunity
to learn and to give and serve and
feel yourself being magnified in ways that you've
never been magnified before,
or to receive revelation
in ways that you have never received it
before. And I think that is such a
huge blessing. And for me, I had more
quiet time. I wasn't rushing around
to work or school or whatever, driving in
in DC traffic, but I had more quiet
time where I really could soak in that
spirit.
So and it was an incredible exchange of
service,
like truly incredible
where I could, I had to be creative
in serving other people and they served me
in such beautiful,
tender, powerful ways. I remember one friend, Patty,
who was in my relief society and I
really wanted to go to the Temple, but
I was bald and I didn't know if
I had the energy to do everything. And
it was a kind of a long drive
to get to the DC Temple, but she
came with me and she helped me and
it was so beautiful. And my Bishop was
really in,
in tune with the Spirit, I think. But
he also checked in with me several times
a day, whether that was visiting me in
the hospital or when I was home at
home or texting me or calling me or
emailing me, He was just he I was
at the top of his mind and I
knew that, and it made all the difference.
Yeah. So it was actually a very beautiful
experience.
Yeah. And I'm trying to just put my
myself in the shoes of that bishop. Like,
I'd be it'd be so difficult for me
to call and ask my Relief Society president
to do something or to delegate something to
her. But it's not like just that that
open communication
created that opportunity. Right? And it was and
he was more aware, well, more aware of
how
how capable or the Mhmm. Where you were
at and what you could do in each
day to day. Right? Yes. And I was
so grateful for that. Yeah. So grateful that
he got that, that he understood that. I
remember one time when I was doing better,
but I was trying to finish my dissertation
so I could get a job in real
insurance
instead of student insurance.
And he asked me to
go serve at the Bishop's storehouse.
And I was like, are you kidding me?
But I did. And,
it was a great experience.
Wow. That's awesome. You know, another thought that
came to mind, this is gonna be sort
of the maybe an overarching theme of our
conversation today is that we have such a
strong tradition of leadership in our church. I
mean, this this concept of lay leadership and
and the weak and the simple and God
asking
individuals who on paper have no business leading,
you know, even Joseph Smith. Right? But nonetheless,
there's such a sanctifying nature to it. And
when we are in these situations where mentally
we sort of set people aside outside of
the leadership
possibility,
it sort of is this disconnection from our
tradition as as saints. Mhmm. And so when
somebody is going through a hard time or
cancer or health problems, you know, we we
we should lean into that and still consider
them for these things or or not release
them too quickly because it's so much has
a deep tradition of being a Latter day
Saint is being asked to serve and many
times being asked to lead, you know, and
and what a great blessing it was in
in your life. Yeah. You know, one of
the things that I've loved in my research
of the Nauvoo Relief Society
is that
the two goals, according to Joseph Smith of
the relief society, were to provide relief
and to save souls.
And I gained such an incredible testimony of
that because of my experience, my personal health
issues,
that when I provided relief to someone else,
I found relief
for myself.
And that work of relief is salvific work.
It was beautiful. And I learned
a completely
new layer of the atonement of Jesus Christ.
It was very powerful. Yeah. And and there's
people you're talking about, a sister who sat
with you and cried with you, like, as
you learn how to sit with people in
their trauma, in their trial, then you were
able to do that to others. You know,
that's the truth. That grace for grace principle.
Right. And I think my friend, Marion, that
did that, I think she
had such a an insightful experience herself that
she would continue to do that with other
people.
And I love that. Yeah. That's what Relief
Society is. Yeah. And and just really inspiring
story. And
and because it can feel like, oh, a
way I can serve, you know, sister Rita
is by releasing her. And, you you know,
that's how I'm gonna serve her. But instead,
just step back and be prayerful about this
process and say, well, actually, there could be
some deeper blessings here for this individual. So
And you know one more thing, I think.
And I saw this when when I had
my second bone marrow transplant.
My
and I think this happened the first time
and that second time, but my bishops in
both times realized that this was actually really
a way to rally the ward. Mhmm. You
know, we had ward fast for me and
people were praying for me and I could
feel that. And that second time, it was
during a time where I was so sick
and I really honestly would have been fine
if I died. Mhmm.
But the fact that I knew that people
were praying and fasting for me and they
had faith for me when I couldn't
really rallied the ward, and it buoyed me
up in an incredible way. Wow. Wow. That's
inspiring. Anything else from just that time of
your life and being a leader that, we
need to touch on?
I think it's incredible to develop relationships that
will continue.
I'm single, so I'm a little bit transitory,
but I did live live in DC for
seven years, and we
became each other's family. And it was beautiful.
And I love the way that they rallied
around me.
When I graduated
and moved back to Utah,
the next Relief Society president had been my
compassionate service leader, and she was diagnosed with
breast cancer.
So we kind of joked that it was
the curse
of the president,
but it was incredible. Even though I wasn't
living there, I was watching the way people
took care of her. And then we've had
such deep tragedies come out of that ward
as people have moved on.
A friend who moved to Bountiful
lost her five year old boy in a
drowning accident on a family reunion in Costa
Rica. And everyone from that ward just came
from all directions
to support her and love her. Another woman
in the ward who was still living in
DC, her husband was a lobbyist and he
was in, he was in China And she
had just had her fourth baby, like, six
weeks before, and he died of a staph
infection. Ugh. Like, so random.
And that ward
from all over again, all over the country,
just rallied around her and made sure that
she had the financial means to stay home
with her sons for as long as she
could, and had people go over and, and
build playgrounds and take the sons and, and
do all sorts of things. And it, it
was such a beautiful,
beautiful thing. And there's countless other examples of
that, but that ward just became this
expansive,
web all across the country where whenever anyone
needed help, we knew we could call on
friends from that ward. Yeah. That's inspiring. That's
awesome. So let's put that into, back to
to history a little bit. There's so many
I have a list of of your notes
here that, I'm I'm so excited to talk
about that. And maybe let's talk about this
concept of authority. And let me preface this
with, I just got this email this week
and I've gotten a similar email from so
many other sisters where
because there is this feeling, there is this
movement, and I think every
male leader out there
wants to include the sisters
in meetings and ward council. And and so
they're doing different things to do that. You
know, they may not hit it right on
the the head every time, but they're they're
really trying to do that because, you know,
they don't they don't want to dominate or
anything like that.
And this one sister basically said, like, I've
been really excited president. I've been primary president.
I've been in these word council meetings. I
see the bishop trying, but at the end
of the day,
he makes the final call. Right? And so
there's this feeling of, like, no matter
how we lay the chairs out in word
council or what we do, there's always this
limiting
influence
that women have. What thoughts come to mind
that maybe you can launch us
into some history? Sure. So a couple of
thoughts come to mind, and I've been a
Relief Society president three times.
Wow. And I've and I've worked with
several different bishops. You know?
Yeah, and I've been young women's president.
And the last two young women's president and
last Relief Society president were in inner city
wards in Salt Lake City, and which was
a completely different experience
as well. And I have seen how different
bishops work, and some work very cohesively
with the with the women leaders,
and some don't. And that's just the their
past experience and their understanding, and and that's
just the way it goes. But I've seen
it work fantastically.
And so I believe it can happen,
which is also a curse because when it
hasn't worked, it's very frustrating. Yeah. I think
that it really comes down to the fact,
and now I'm going to turn to history.
Yeah. With the organization of the Nauvoo Relief
Society,
Joseph Smith said that the church was never
fully organized until the women were organized.
And he intended for the Relief Society to
be as a sort of companion
to the priesthood quorum, as an order of
the priesthood quorum. And and sometimes Eliza r
Snow and other people say things like, the
Relief Society is just another quorum
of the priesthood.
So we don't use those words today Mhmm.
Obviously.
But I think that if we realize
how significant
the relief society is,
both men and women,
that we can realize how valuable it is
to have women involved in word councils and
in making decisions and in trusting them. I
love the talk that Elder Oaks gave.
I can't remember when it was. I think
it was
Probably five years ago? Yeah. And it was
in a priesthood session. Yeah. But he talked
about how when women receive
callings or assignments by priesthood leadership, that they
have priesthood authority
in their stewardship.
And I think that's a pure gospel
doctrine. That's a pure term and a pure
idea.
And I think sometimes bishops want to
crowdsource
and allow
other members of the council to do things.
And other times they want to keep a
tighter fist on on things. But I think
the most fruitful
and
beneficial experience for everybody is when women are
recognized for that leadership and given the room
to do what they can. I think it's
interesting that things have changed a little bit
under president Nelson, where he really has asked
the bishops
to be more involved with the youth and
for Relief Society presidents and elder elders corn
presidents to sort of lead the other efforts
in the church.
And I think that's incredible. That takes a
lot of trust, I think, of the people
that you that are in those positions.
But I love the way that Emma Smith
really asserted that and she really
understood that. Now in her
revelation that we now know today is section
25 of the Doctrine and Covenants.
She was told that she was an elect
lady,
and she was
she was told that she would expound scriptures
and exhort the church.
And I think that was kind of a
hard thing for her to understand in 1830,
women
didn't so much lead organizations.
Well, they did lead female organizations,
but they didn't so much preach.
And if they did preach, they were kind
of seen as the outliers
and the
crazies.
Yeah. Radicals. Right? Totally. Yeah. Yeah. So I
think that she had to figure out what
that meant. And it was actually not for
twelve years until the Relief Society was organized.
And they were in a more stable place
in Nauvoo where they could organize.
And I think that she learned how to
lead and she learned and established what her
principles of leadership were.
She was very
understanding of the needs in the community.
And so we get this incredible exchange of
services
where someone will come and say, I need
work. I'm a really good seamstress.
And someone will come and say, I need
clothing and that she matches them up. So
it's this incredible coordination and exchange of services.
But she's also tasked with
with leading the moral purity of the community
and of the women in relief society. And
she takes that very seriously. And that's a
normal thing for organ women's organizations at that
time. There are many in big cities in
New York and Boston and Philadelphia,
where women are really trying to clean up
the communities,
in a moral sense.
And I think Emma took that very seriously.
In the Nauvoo Relief Society, you have to
apply for membership.
And part of that was because the Relief
Society
was a preparation for these women to actually
receive their temple ordinances.
And so they wanted to be careful about
who they allowed in. They wanted to make
sure that they were worthy, kind of like
when we get our temple recommends. Yeah. That
they were worthy, that they would support Joseph
Smith. During this time, we also see a
lot of of tension, inner tension,
and outer tension. Inner within the church,
people who,
have some issues with his style of leadership
and who claim more power and authority than
they probably
should have had. I keep thinking of section
20 one twenty one in the Doctrine and
Covenants. Yeah. And I think Emma really took
that seriously.
I also think she did a lot of
that expounding and exhorting with the hymn book,
where she chose hymns that would
reflect Latter day Saint theology
and doctrine, and that would unite the congregations.
And I think that
she had these little,
sort of passages
of
of learning and of experience that led her
to the Relief Society. She was then in
September of eighteen forty three, the first woman
to receive her endowment,
And she then passed that on to other
women.
So not only was she's the president of
the Relief Society, but she was sort of
the matron. Yeah. They didn't have a completed
temple then. But I think that's
all in it's so interesting in how that
ties together. And so with all these many
responsibilities
or invitations or was that all all in
the context of being the president of relief
the Relief Society, or was it sort of
sometimes conflated with being the wife of Joseph
Smith? I think it was both. Yeah. And
I think that's one thing. It's kind of
hard for us to understand because we've lived
years
of structure and order, and this is the
order in which things happen, and you have
to do this before you do this. There's
handbooks and there's yeah. Right. And
Joseph did not receive a handbook in the
Sacred Grove.
He had to figure it out. And I
think the remarkable thing about Joseph and Emma
was that she helped him figure it out.
Yeah. They were in it together. They were
in it together. Yeah. And we don't have
record of their pillow talk or their conversations
in private.
Like, we have records of Joseph with his,
scribes and with the quorum of the 12
and the council of fifty and the high
council and the city council and all the
councils.
But I think it's significant that Emma
did influence him significantly
in
including women and
and,
making the church a place that was larger
than what they had at the time. Yeah.
And, you know, being the wife of a
leader, it can sort of feel like this,
diminished role or, you know, even just sort
of this tradition we have that we don't
really know what to call the wife of
the mission president. It's always the mission president
and wife or or some people just sort
of say, oh, we've been asked to serve
as mission president. Right. You know, what does
that mean? Right. And so but
being the wife, like, it just sort of
doesn't seem as as powerful.
But I always talk about the the white
the bishop's wife as this is sort of
this unofficial calling
that you may not be set apart in,
but, you know, you're in in this together,
and there's some great leadership opportunities there. And
but I realize it'd be nice to formalize
on these things, but to sort of step
into that authority. Right? Right. And I think
it's interesting if we actually turn to
doctrine and covenant section 25.
I think there's some really interesting,
words that the Lord uses to teach Emma
about this about being the wife of the
prophet or the first lady of the prophet.
He says to her,
the office of thy calling shall be for
a comfort unto my servant Joseph Smith, thy
husband in his afflictions with consoling words in
the spirit of meanness,
which means
she's supposed to support him. Right? But he
doesn't use the word support. He uses the
word comfort and he uses the word office,
which I think means you are given this
special assignment.
When I think of office, I think of
my office here in the church history library
that has my name on the door, and
I do something specific in that little room.
And I think it's significant that this idea
of comfort
is not coming from underneath.
It's coming from
over.
And she's to cover him with comfort when
he needs it. And she does that. She
writes him letters
to comfort him in his afflictions when he's
in Liberty Jail, or almost anytime they're separated.
Those letters are so beautiful.
And I also think that it's significant that
that word comfort, I think of in the
New Testament,
right before
Christ goes to Gethsemane, he tells his disciples,
I will not leave you comfortless, I will
give you another comforter.
And so in a way, Emma's role as
the wife of the prophet
was
divine,
and calling upon
these divine roles.
It also says that in verse six, thou
shalt go with him at the time of
his going and be into him for a
scribe. So she's to go with him. She
is to leave her family. And we know
that from the Bible, you're supposed to leave
your family and cleave into your husband and
cleave together as a husband and wife. And
she does that once she leaves Harmony
in 1831, she never sees her parents again.
But she is dedicated and she does go
with Joseph.
But I also kind of wonder if when
he dies
and the saints are leaving Nauvoo, if we
can sort of expand the definition of that
phrase that she chooses to stay with him
Mhmm. At the time of his staying.
Wow. That's powerful. And another thing that I
love also is when
verse nine, it says, thou needest not fear
for thy husband shall support thee in the
church, for unto them is his calling.
And that makes sense. Right? For a bishop's
wife, for a state president's wife, for a
mission president's wife,
for a temple president's wife, for a general
authority's
wife,
is that they should
these women should support their husbands in their
callings. But I think if we, again, look
at this in a slightly different way,
your husband shall support you in the church.
So she also has significant roles. Yeah. Right?
She becomes the Relief Society president.
She becomes
the the head of the temple work for
women.
And he is supporting her the same way
I would hope that all mission president
leaders, whatever,
support each other or temple president and matron
support each other. Yeah. Now I'm just thinking,
like, what a powerful section to read to,
you know, a stake president could read to
the the bishop and his wife as they're
being called or Mhmm. These types of things.
And I realized I wanna be sensitive. Maybe
the women are listening thinking, So here we
go. You're just telling me to support my
husband and, you know, help him along. But
I think it's just helpful. You know, it
is it is messy because of the the
the patriarchal nature of the priesthood and the
these offices that have been restored and the
keys and whatnot.
And putting them up against the backdrop of
modern times. It sort of does seem like,
you're asking me to squint and tilt my
head a little. Yeah. Doesn't it look great
now? But there is some some power when
we step into these roles of saying, oh,
I'm not just supposed to take care of
the kids and make sure dinner's warm on
the table, but there's maybe a deeper role
as I step in and and seek for
guidance in in some of these, callings that
come to a spouse. Absolutely. And I think
that, I mean, we could look at that
too as the husband of a relief society
president Yeah. Or of a young women's president,
especially when she has to go to girls
camp. Right?
But I think that
it also depends on you and how much
you want to put into that support
or comforting role,
and how much you feel like you can
because you can in many ways influence
a congregation,
or
I don't know, young women, you know, as
a support.
There's so many things you can do if
you seek for it and choose to define
it for how it would work for you.
Yeah. Love that. So around this concept of
authority, anything else, any other history to to
consider when it comes to this, you know,
what authority that women have?
So I think it's really significant,
this idea.
Joseph said that he was going to organize
the Relief Society after the pattern of the
priesthood and after the order of the priesthood.
Meaning, some have said that that would include
a president and counselors
and any other assistance
needed.
He also said, and this is interesting too,
that if you need to add any other
leadership roles in your organization, please do, like
deacons
or teachers.
Oh, wow. I know. So we we don't
think about it like that and in those
terms today. But Sarah Kimball in Salt Lake
City, she was the president of the fifteenth
Ward Relief Society. And she actually create she
and Eliza Arsenault together created a list of
responsibilities.
And they had deaconesses
who would come and women in their Relief
Society who were assigned to come and prepare
the room for Relief Society. If it was
cold, they would build a fire. They would
bring water, they would, you know, clean and
sweep and whatever.
She had teachers, which were
visiting teachers
who would
minister and visit all the sisters in their
blocks and in their wards.
And then I don't I can't remember how
she used priestesses,
but we always associate priests with the temple.
Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's really cool.
Yeah. And I I also think that teaches
us that we too
can expand our definitions
of what we need
and always within the alignment of the handbook.
But at times I've had three counselors because
I needed that help
or I've had an assistant secretary because I've
needed that help.
But I think it's significant to be able
to to think outside the box and not
just do things the way they've always been
done. Yeah. And of course, you have to
do that with the approbation of your bishop.
Sure. Sure. But I'd love just the principle
there is this principle of empowerment that, you
know, I'm going, let's make sure you have
a clear purpose of how you can help
build the kingdom in this this part of
the vineyard. Right? And Mhmm. And that's, that's
strong.
Let's see. Where do you want it as
far as, you know, going back to that
sister's email, as far as, like,
speaking up when, you know, having your your
voice be heard, That's maybe an area that
a lot of women try and they struggle
finding that stage where they can feel comfortable
speaking up. Yeah. And I think that was
especially
the case in nineteenth century
America. It wasn't
normal for women to speak publicly.
And if they were speaking publicly,
they were, you know, they had significant roles,
like, I don't know, Susan B. Anthony, or
if you even go earlier, like way, way
back to Anne Hutchinson,
in the Massachusetts
colony who felt called to teach and speak,
but then she was thrown out of the
colony.
She was banished.
So for speaking. Uh-huh. Oh, wow. Yeah, for
gathering people in her home. And she drew
upon scriptures in the New Testament to justify
that. But I think, I think sometimes we're
not accustomed
to
speaking from the stand or from a position
of leadership. And we see this quite a
bit in the Relief Society. Brigham Young, when
he reorganized the Relief Society in Utah in
1868,
he asks Eliza R. Snow, who is a
very capable woman.
She'd been secretary of the Nauvoo Relief Society,
and she had
kept the Nauvoo Relief Society minute book
and knew had studied it and knew what
Joseph had taught and how the Relief Society
was instituted,
he asked her, first of all, to
assist bishops in organizing Relief Societies.
And in some ways, I think that's awesome,
because they probably would some of them had
hadn't been in Nauvoo and had no idea.
And they're like, please help. In other ways,
I wonder if they felt a little bit
threatened by a woman coming to them and
saying, okay, this is what we need to
do. And this is how we need to
do it. And I sort of think it's
the same today.
But then Brigham Young also asked Eliza,
I would like you to instruct the sisters.
Now, Eliza doesn't speak much, if at all,
in the Navajo Relief Society.
At least she doesn't record herself speaking,
except for one really incredible meeting that I
love, 04/19/1842.
But when Brigham Young asked her and gave
her this specific assignment to instruct the sisters
In her life sketch, she writes, my heart
went pit a pat.
Like she was scared.
And especially in some of the early
meetings that she attended, she would say, for
several years, she would say, I'm not accustomed
to speaking publicly or to leading out. But
I know that this is what the Lord
wants me to do. And I also know
that if we pray, the Spirit will guide
us and guide me to say something important,
and that will guide you to hear something,
what you need to hear.
The other thing that I love about her
is she learned how to do this, but
she also taught other women how to do
this. She wasn't the only one. Mary Isabella
Horn is another example.
She was a Relief Society president
in
the Fourteenth Ward,
and she was so nervous, the record says,
when she was first called to get up
and preside over a meeting,
that she literally had to have her two
counselors come and hold her up so she
didn't fall down. Wow.
So I think that's significant. But the more
practice that she had, the better that she
became and the more fluid she became at
speaking. In fact, later, she would travel around
Utah territory with
Eliza R. Snow,
and she also would encourage women to speak.
So there's something empowering
that we can learn from this, something in
giving voice
to the marginalized
or the quiet
or the
the unspeaking
people
is to give them a voice. It's incredible.
And to,
to hear what they have to say.
Yeah. And help me with my history. Liza
Snow, she wasn't right after Emma. She was
when they're the Saints were in Utah. But
this time was when she was released as
president. So Brigham Young shut down the Relief
Society in Nauvoo in 1845.
But I think the women had learned so
many different
important principles
from the relief society that all through like
winter quarters and crossing the plains,
they would continue to meet, not in the
name of relief society, but they would serve
each other and bless each other and
have very powerful spiritual experiences together and care
for one another in a really treacherous time.
Yeah. So, yeah,
Eliza's became the de facto
general relief society president. But here's another interesting
thing was that they didn't
call her to be the general relief society
president,
partly because
they were still trying to figure out how
all of this, these layers of organization
would work. The first Stake Relief Society president
was called in 1877,
right before Brigham Young died. And that was
in Weber County in Ogden,
and it was Jane Snyder Richards.
And then in 1880,
John Taylor met with the Salt Lake Stake
women, and they decided to form what they
called then a central board, both for the
relief society and for the primary and the
young women.
And Eliza was, of course, selected as the
president of the Relief Society. But it's interesting
because several times before that people considered her
that, but it wasn't made official until John
Taylor
called for that. And it also is interesting
because it wasn't until after the death of
Emma Smith in 1879.
Oh, really? Wow. Yeah. And so was should
be considered the second release of the first?
Okay. But there was a gap there of
some Yeah. Maybe a hiatus of of Right.
Society.
Yeah. Interesting. So in this concept of speaking
up and, you know, seeing these records, it's
would you say that, like, as the church
through these early years of the restoration, like,
was
the were Latter day Saints
quite progressive as far as giving women opportunity
to speak? Is that safe to say? Yeah.
I think so. I think it's interesting. During
the second great awakening,
at the time the church was organized,
you get this whole new idea of evangelical
practice of religion, meaning you
stand up and utter your beliefs and your
convictions and your conversion and being called upon
by the Holy Spirit.
And so in that sense, it became sort
of a popular thing and something that happened.
But then as
new groups and new churches were formed, they
became more tightly controlled, and the men took
over most of the leadership.
So while we have
significant female leaders in other religions, I'm thinking
of Anne Lee with the Shakers
or
women in the Quakers
and in other places,
It is significant
that the Nauvoo Relief Society and subsequent Relief
Societies
were given this specific religious,
female authority
to lead and to speak
and to teach.
And I remember, I love this story where
Eliza, excuse me, is at a young women's
meeting and she calls upon one of Brigham
Young's daughters to speak.
And her daughter was, the daughter was like,
no, I'm too scared. Right?
And Eliza said, well, never mind. But next
time have something to say.
Next time. And so she just encouraged women
to have a scripture in mind. I mean,
she said at the very least you could
get up and read a scripture. Yeah.
So she was really
adamant about women
becoming comfortable
in speaking and exhorting and sharing and in
teaching each other. Yeah. So how can some
of these stories help inspire
women today to to speak up or to
have that confidence?
That's a great question. I love what president
Nelson said
that in his talk, A Plea to My
Sisters, he said, we need you to speak
up and speak out.
And so he, here's a prophetic call for
us as women. President Kimball did that even
in, in 1979
when he asked for women to be sister
scriptorians.
And so I think part of that is
engaging in the scriptures and in general conference
talks and being able to and comfortable
in making comments.
Now I am currently teaching gospel doctrine in
my ward.
And it's been crazy with Zoom and now
we're in person and I teach in the
chapel so we can spread out a little
more, but it's still hard to
be able to call on people that
don't always speak. You always have the ones
that do and that are comfortable and have
lots of great things to say. Yeah. You
always have the ones that do and that
are comfortable and have lots of great things
to say. We give them a limit and
say one more comment. Yep. Yep. That's right.
But it's also very powerful to be able
to
call on people that haven't spoken, and they
often have very powerful things to say. And
so I don't think we should be
afraid to do that.
And that can happen in many different forms.
There have been times when I texted someone
before
Sunday and said, hey, can you tell a
story about this? Or can you comment on
this quote or
whatever?
And I try to find people that don't
speak up very often. And for the most
part, they're delighted
to be invited to think about something and
to speak about something. But I just think
there's something powerful about
coming together and not having a lecture, but
having a true discussion. Yeah. Because sometimes when
we talk about speaking up and being heard,
you know, or having women speak up and
be heard, it's often we default to the
context of word council and making sure, okay,
let's make sure we've heard enough from the
sisters in the room. But a lot of
this is just this building sort of this
culture of speaking up where
women to women, they're saying, hey, why don't
you share this comment as I'm teaching and
let's get let's hear your voice more. Or
it may be
the empowering women to set an appointment with
a bishop and sit him down and say,
hey. I've got three things that I'm I
don't really like how this is going, and
I wanna I wanna be heard and go
through this. Right? So So I have a
couple of comments about that. I when I
used to meet with my bishop in Northern
Virginia
every month
before word council, and it was in the
evening.
And we had one in the evening and
then one on a Sunday morning before church.
But I would make an agenda when I
went in to talk to him and he
would get so used to this that he'd
be like, okay, what's on the agenda today?
But I felt the need to prepare myself
and to have that, because it was limited
time that I had
to express to him some concerns or questions
or hopes
or whatever it may be thoughts
about the Relief Society.
I also think our church has gone through
a really interesting
trajectory,
I guess you could say. So in the
beginning, the relief societies, especially Nauvoo, was very
discussion oriented.
And so it's not like you have
discourses given in relief society, right? It's someone
says this, and then someone replies.
And then I think we went to
we went through a period, a long period,
where it was more of a lecture. And
we had,
back in the day, this was before I
really remember
engaging in relief society,
where they would have a literature lesson or
a manners lesson or a home domestic lesson.
And it was it was a a lecture.
And now that we have
started using come follow me and teachings of
the prophets
from general conference.
It just works so much better when you
can return to that discussion mode and involve
so many people. And I've heard so many
people on your podcast talk about doing that.
Last week in my relief society,
it was about it was Elder Renlund's talk
about our God is a God of miracles.
And it was one of the most powerful
Relief Societies I've ever been in.
And I think it was because the teacher,
and sometimes I think they call them discussion
leaders now even,
asked for experiences
and women shared experiences
of miracles. She had even asked someone to
come in from the primary
or a primary teacher who didn't get to
come to Relief Society often.
And she told us the most tender, beautiful
experience
and miracle at the death of her husband.
And it was so beautiful and everyone in
there felt that. So and then another thing
as a teacher, I feel like it's so
important
to acknowledge that. And so a lot of
times when I'm teaching,
a couple of weeks ago, I taught about
this ministry of reconciliation
that we find in Doctrine and Covenants about
forgiveness and repentance.
And I asked for stories, experiences,
and this 90 year old man told this
story.
His wife was Dutch and was the daughter
of a man after World War Two,
who had to
was asked to send potatoes
to their former enemies in Germany
and this incredible experience of coming to that.
And the spirit was so strong in that
huge chapel. And I just said, do you
guys feel that?
That is the spirit.
And it's not just me bringing the spirit.
It's the people Yeah. In the class that
are bringing the spirit, and it's incredible to
acknowledge that. Yeah. And that goes for for
leadership as well. It's not just the the
leader that's that, you know, the bishops is
bringing the leadership. I mean, he holds the
keys, but those keys
are are you know, we have access to
those keys, and we can all bring leadership
to the table
and voices and things and and authority.
Mhmm. It's awesome.
Alright. What let's talk about,
the power of relief society and what we
learned from history in that context. Yeah. So
there was a very deep
commitment to relief society, and I don't think
we have that as much today.
And I part of that's the pandemic.
Part of that is now we only have
Relief Society twice a month.
Part of that is we live such busy
lives and our our families and kids are
involved with so many different
activities.
And I work full time and I have
a pretty heavy workload,
and we just don't get that time together
as women.
I think it's interesting
that I told you my favorite Relief Society
meeting from Nauvoo was April 19. And it
was an unscheduled meeting. Emma Smith wasn't there.
But Zaina Young, who was a member at
the time, her name was Zaina Jacobs.
She had a sister, Priscindia, who lived out
of town and had heard about Relief Society
and she really wanted to
come. So she comes into town and they
make her a member of Relief Society
and,
have a very beautiful
exchange of testimonies and of experiences.
And Eliza R. Snow
even blessed her that she would go forth
and have this relief society in her bones
and that she would share it with the
people in her town and where she lived.
And then later I see that Eliza expands
that idea as she speaks. She travels all
around
Utah, Idaho, Wyoming,
Nevada
territories,
establishing relief societies and training women. But she
says something really interesting. There's a pattern. She
repeats this idea of how relief society,
we are all like embers or coals, and
we're all spread out in our homes and
busy lives. But when we can come together
to relief society, we can gather together our
embers and all of a sudden we have
this flame of fire
and then your ember is relit
and you can then take that ember back
to your busy life
and it will warm you up and the
other people that you're with.
And I love that. And I felt that
in my relief society this week. I don't
always feel that. Yeah. But if we could
take into
account that possibility,
I think it would change everything. Yeah. Yeah.
And it's a mindset shift. Right? That because
we get again, we have such this long
history traditions and you can just sort of
show up like, okay, we typically sing a
hymn and someone prays, and then we do
this, and then there's announcements and someone's passing
a list around. I don't know what the
list. Right? Right. And we get caught in
that when
to step back and really see as these
this is an organization. I love that, you
know, this history that you talk about, that
there's this initiation
process. You know, I'm not that we're gonna
go to membership applications and No. Right. But
what that created was this initiation, like, I'm
part of something really special. And in fact,
I'm gonna come from way out of town
to attend this meeting because it is so
sanctifying and real. And and the the embers
thing because some I imagine
some people come and their embers completely dried
out. A %.
Yeah. And they need the the
the community fire to reignite them so they
can return to their homes. Right? Yeah. Here's
a great example too. In 1886,
this is a year before Eliza dies.
She's not doing well. She has poor health.
To be understood, she's 82
years old, right? Wow. 83
years old. And she is not able to
attend the Salt Lake Stake Relief Society conference.
But she sends a letter,
and it is such a beautiful letter. And
she tells them, may you have a copious
refreshing
of the spirit at this meeting.
And I believe that's what she tried to
do everywhere she went. Because some of these
settlements in Utah are so spread out in
the middle of nowhere in places I've never
heard of, and I've been grown up in
Utah my whole life.
But she tries to spread that,
the fire from Salt Lake out.
And it's incredible to see how women pick
that up and take that seriously. Yeah. But
it so it's not only a fire, but
it's a copious refreshing
of the spirit.
She writes about that Nauvoo Relief Society meeting
that they felt the spirit as a purifying
stream,
which is such a beautiful term. And if
we could think about that and seek for
that, and I think again, some days you're
going to get it and some days you
won't.
But if we go with that intent, like
heavenly father this week, I really need
a copious refreshing of the spirit,
or I really need my soul to burn,
or I really need to feel the purifying
stream
that we we can not only as leaders
seek for that, but as as members, we
can we can ask for that. Yeah. And
I'm just thinking just the the restructuring
that, you know, the the church is staying
president Nielsen is is laying out with, you
know,
really emphasizing the role of the elders quorum
president and the relief society president, where instead
of maybe seeing
our organization as a ward, it's actually
two organizations working together, the the men's organization
and the women's organization. And, yeah, there's a
bishop that's working with the youth and is
presiding over that structure,
but to really empower
the tradition of these organizations rather than, oh,
that's just where the women go. And over
there, that's where the men go, and that's
what we do. Yeah. That's the second hour.
That's the second hour. So I think and
I just had this idea as you were
saying that. I think that the Relief Society
president is also enlarged in the sense that
she calls upon ministering sisters to do sort
of the groundwork for her. We have a
huge ward and we're in a highly
developing
area,
and I don't know how she can keep
track of all the people moving in and
moving out.
But she has set up these ministering sisters
as have other
wards and relief societies as
per president Nelson's instruction.
And there's something that I love that Eliza
teaches about that. This, this idea of reaching
out of teaching, They
were first called teachers, then they were called
visiting teachers. Now they're called ministering sisters. So
the name has changed. Uh-huh. But the idea
is still the same. Yeah. And the concept
is this,
as Eliza says, that you need to go
into the homes of the people that you
minister to. And you need to feel if
the spirit is there or if the fire
has gone out. And if it has, you
need to take that woman into your bosom
and hug her and warm her up
so that she can have that.
How powerful is that idea? Wow.
And how beautiful, how can we apply that
to our ministry? Yeah.
Just to go into a home or to
reach out, you know, through texts and whatever
way that is possible and purposeful
and to warm up that sister.
Yeah. You know, it reminds me of my
wife. Just this week, she called,
you know, she had a new ministering assignment.
So she called one of the sisters on
her list and Mhmm. Got her on the
phone and sort of introduced like, hey. I'm,
Alana, and I'm your ministering sister. And suddenly,
she said it suddenly got awkward.
And she said, oh, well, I haven't been
practicing for about twelve years now,
but I'd be happy to be a neighbor
with you. And my wife's like, perfect. I
would love that. You know, you don't have
to talk anything church. But, again, just the
action of now there's an opportunity to warm
her heart. And, again, not because, well, we
gotta get her back at church, but maybe
it'll let it go that way. But but,
you know, my wife can still take that
power of the Relief Society, that spirit Mhmm.
To this the sweet neighbor. Of course. Absolutely.
And I think, again, we can expand our
wording and our definitions
and what we're doing. Yeah. But the idea
is still the same, is to
make sure that that person is taken care
of, that they are loved,
and that if they have
needs, whether they're physical or spiritual or mental
or whatever social
Yeah. That we can help meet them. And
in that sense, we're providing relief to them.
And it's like we're joining this
ministry
Yeah. Of Christ. Right. Yeah. And that's what
it's well named as a ministry. Yeah. Paul
calls it in in Corinthians. He calls it,
you are an ambassador of Christ. Oh, that's
powerful. Right? Love that. Love that. Alright. Well,
as we wrap up here, let's just do,
let's just run down the all star list
here. Just some maybe some past
female leaders that, we don't get heard of
or maybe we do and and maybe there's
unique perspective. So let's hit some of those.
Yeah. I wanna tell you about two women
that I learned about when I was
writing the book at the pulpit.
One of them was named Jane Nymond.
Never heard of her. Cute little, poor little
lady in Nauvoo,
came from Pennsylvania.
Her husband died shortly after they arrived.
She married again. Her second husband died, and
she had six family members die. You know,
all the stories, all the people are dying.
Right?
But
she wanted to join the Navajo relief society.
She had received assistance from them
because of her dire condition. And so she
applied for membership
and her membership was turned down
because there was a lot of gossip surrounding
her daughters
who got caught up in some surreptitious
activity.
And that was heartbreaking for her. Not only
that there was so much gossip about her,
but that they would think that
she was a bad person because of that.
She didn't become bitter. She stayed with the
church, crossed the plains with one of her
daughters and her husband,
and eventually became the first Relief Society president
in Beaver, Utah.
Small town Beaver.
So she she recognized
the power of relief society, but her big
thing
was
that charity
covers a multitude
of sins.
And if we don't speak poorly about each
other, but if we
take up charity,
then we will do something extraordinary.
Yeah. And it it's so beautiful. Her talk
is I mean, her discourse, I guess, in
at the pulpit is very short. It's just
a paragraph,
but it's such a powerful talk once you
know about her Yeah. And about what she
went through to come to that understanding.
Yeah. And that that's powerful because there are
sometimes people can say things that sting so
much and hurt for so long,
but to still maintain that perspective of charity,
because those that say those things. Right? Yeah.
And I think that's important today. Yeah. Extremely
important. So the second one I wanna talk
about is I found a talk that was
printed in the women's exponent
that was given, which was a nineteenth century
Mormon women's newspaper.
And it was given in the Salt Lake
City eleventh ward, young women. And it was
about prayer.
And the author of the talk or the
giver of the talk,
had the initials
EG Jones.
And I it was such a beautiful talk
and incredible.
One of my favorite parts
was the fact that she said,
prayer is the key to the statehouse of
our understanding
and communication.
It is what allows us to communicate with
God.
But then she says, there is no pit
so deep,
no hole so dark that you cannot reach
out to your heavenly father in prayer.
And it's just beautiful.
So but I had to find out who
this person was. Yeah. And I had to
call on a family history specialist,
and we found her. Her name was Eleanor
Georgina Jones. Did you know it was a
a woman when Yeah. Because she was speaking
to this to the Oh, okay. Got it.
Young women in Salt Lake.
And we found her in a few places
in the church history catalog, but we also
found her in census records
in 1850
in Nashville,
Tennessee.
And in that census record, it showed that
her mother was mixed race.
The man that was with her mother, we
don't know if that was her father, we
can assume that, but we don't know, was
black.
And her siblings had all been born in
different states.
So like Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee,
all over. And
this is in before the civil war. Right?
So this, we don't know anything about these
people. If the children came from different fathers,
if they were slaves on different plantations,
we don't know. All we know is Eleanor
and her sister joined the church and that
she was wide enough or light enough when
she came to Salt Lake that she passed
as a white person.
And as a result,
they
allowed her to go to the temple. They
allowed her send to hold the priesthood
and she sort of traveled back and forth
between Salt Lake and California where her husband
lived.
So there's just not much known about her
at all. There are no photographs of her.
She had no journals, no letters.
She had one letter she wrote to Brigham
Young saying she was going back to California
for a time.
But she's a very unknown person, but I
felt like she was kind of leaving breadcrumbs
for us to find her.
And we discovered that she died in Redding,
California.
And
we were able to get the death certificate
and find out that she died of a
stroke ten days, she had a stroke, and
then ten days later, she died and was
buried in an unmarked grave.
And so her story is lost. But then
when you think about who she was and
the words that she said, there is no
pit so deep
and no hole so dark that you cannot
reach heavenly father in prayer.
What an incredible woman. Yeah. And so we
don't even know why she maybe was even
speaking at this occasion. No. Wow. But the
power was definitely there. Yeah. And almost this
like, even those that feel like they have
that are a no name in the history
of the church, you still can
have such influence that reaches the reaches the
future of the saints. Right? And her talk
now is on our gospel library app. Oh,
that's something. At the pulpit. And so I
love to share that when I speak at
at girls camps, especially.
Cool. Because I think that's such an important
message. But I think it also tells us
in the present day that we really need
the voices of the people that don't speak
up, that are on the margins, that don't
participate, because they can have incredible things to
say. Yeah. And I'm glad you mentioned you
remind me that at the pulpit is in
the gospel library. I sometimes forget that. They
they put it in there. Awesome. Yes.
Any other sisters,
in in the in the hit there's so
many others. I do write many other books,
but,
this has just been so inspiring and and
helpful. The the last question I wanna end
on, and, well, let me first ask this.
If people do want to
find more of your writing and whether it's
about Emma or At the Pulpit, wherever, anywhere
you'd send them specifically to to learn more
about that? You can find my Emma book
at Deseret Book or on Amazon.
I have a chapter in a book
called A Place to Belong that was published
by Deseret Book as well. Janice Johnson and
I did a compilation of women's experiences.
It's called The Witness of Women, Firsthand
Experiences and Testimonies
of the Restoration,
which is a very powerful, easy to use
book for especially now when we're studying the
Doctrine and Covenants for different events to bring
women's voices
into our lessons and then our talks and
family home meetings. And then, of course, at
the pulpit is a great compilation.
Awesome. The last question I have for you
is a unique one because just walking these
halls, there's just such a spirit here. And
you, you know, in a typical,
world, you work here day to day and
and walk these halls. And I bet there
are moments you've had probably remarkable experiences where
you felt some of these spirits almost sit
down next to you as you're reading their
journal. So whether you feel qualified to do
this or not,
as a representative
of these women in the history,
these sweet, wonderful, latter day saints,
what message what encouragement would do you think
they'd give to women of modern times?
For me personally,
these women have become my host.
I have a host of earthly people
and I have a heavenly host. And some
of them are my family members, but a
lot of them are these women.
And they've sat with me in
lone and dark
hospital rooms,
or when I've been scared, or when I've
been working on them.
I think that if we can know who
they are and understand them,
we can have them with us, and they
can give us courage, and they can understand
our complicated life experiences,
and help us to find different places where
we can pray,
or we can attend the temple and feel
them there as well. But I think they
provide such
depth.
It's sort of a different kind of depth.
Like, I think it's more than three d
depth. I think it's like another dimension,
right, that we can't see or or understand
with our mortal
eyes or ears.
But I think that that once we understand
that these are our spiritual sisters and that
we belong to a sisterhood,
not just mothers, but sisters,
and that we're building the kingdom in different
time periods, but we're doing it together.
It's an incredible
empowering
thing to feel that and to be a
part of that.
And that concludes this throwback episode of the
Leading Saints podcast.
Now that we've reached the end of the
episode,
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about ambiguity and doctrine.
It came as a result of the position
of leadership which was imposed upon us
by the God of heaven who brought forth
a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
When the declaration
was made concerning the only
true and living Church upon the face of
the earth,
We were immediately put in a position of
loneliness,
the loneliness of leadership
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,
and to which we must face up with
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