1
00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:07,459
How do you help someone tell their spouse

2
00:00:07,519 --> 00:00:09,779
that they have secretly been viewing pornography?

3
00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:12,339
Wow. These are tough situations.

4
00:00:13,154 --> 00:00:15,494
Thankfully, one of my favorite and most effective

5
00:00:15,554 --> 00:00:19,074
therapists, Jeff Struer, put together a presentation about

6
00:00:19,074 --> 00:00:20,295
disclosing betrayal.

7
00:00:20,914 --> 00:00:24,535
Jeff explains how disclosing betrayal can make recovery

8
00:00:24,594 --> 00:00:25,335
and repentance

9
00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:28,000
so much more difficult if it isn't handled

10
00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:28,500
correctly.

11
00:00:29,039 --> 00:00:30,560
This isn't a rip the band aid off

12
00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:31,940
quickly type of situation.

13
00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,880
With a better understanding of betrayal, church leaders

14
00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:36,420
can be a strong resource

15
00:00:36,719 --> 00:00:39,359
in helping couples navigate the awful effects of

16
00:00:39,359 --> 00:00:40,420
pornography usage.

17
00:00:40,935 --> 00:00:43,575
You can watch Jeff's entire presentation at no

18
00:00:43,575 --> 00:00:46,615
cost in the Liberating Saints virtual library. Simply

19
00:00:46,615 --> 00:00:48,795
go to leadingsaints.org/fourteen,

20
00:00:48,935 --> 00:00:50,774
and you can sign up for fourteen days

21
00:00:50,774 --> 00:00:52,954
of free access to Jeff's presentation

22
00:00:53,335 --> 00:00:55,390
and the entire library. It's one of my

23
00:00:55,390 --> 00:00:56,450
favorite interviews.

24
00:00:56,829 --> 00:00:59,630
The following episode is a throwback episode, one

25
00:00:59,630 --> 00:01:02,450
that was published previously and was extremely popular.

26
00:01:02,670 --> 00:01:04,349
To see the details of when this was

27
00:01:04,349 --> 00:01:07,310
originally published, see the show notes. Enjoy this

28
00:01:07,310 --> 00:01:08,290
throwback episode.

29
00:01:24,649 --> 00:01:27,049
So you're checking us out as maybe a

30
00:01:27,049 --> 00:01:29,769
potential podcast you could start listening to. I

31
00:01:29,769 --> 00:01:31,369
know many of you have been listening for

32
00:01:31,369 --> 00:01:32,969
a long time, but let me just talk

33
00:01:32,969 --> 00:01:34,890
to the newbies for a minute. What is

34
00:01:34,890 --> 00:01:36,489
Leading Saints? What are we trying to do

35
00:01:36,489 --> 00:01:39,224
here with this podcast? Well, let me explain.

36
00:01:39,524 --> 00:01:41,064
Leading Saints is a nonprofit

37
00:01:41,364 --> 00:01:43,444
organization. A five zero one c three is

38
00:01:43,444 --> 00:01:45,765
what they call it. And we have a

39
00:01:45,765 --> 00:01:46,265
mission

40
00:01:46,724 --> 00:01:49,125
to help Latter day Saints be better prepared

41
00:01:49,125 --> 00:01:51,500
to lead. Now, of course, that often means

42
00:01:51,500 --> 00:01:53,260
in the context of a calling. It may

43
00:01:53,260 --> 00:01:55,840
mean in your local community, your work assignments.

44
00:01:56,379 --> 00:01:58,640
We've heard about our content influencing

45
00:01:58,939 --> 00:02:00,859
all sorts of leaders in all sorts of

46
00:02:00,859 --> 00:02:01,840
different contexts.

47
00:02:02,219 --> 00:02:03,900
We invite you to listen to this episode

48
00:02:03,900 --> 00:02:06,060
and maybe a few others of our 500

49
00:02:06,060 --> 00:02:08,564
plus episodes that we have out there. Jump

50
00:02:08,564 --> 00:02:10,805
in and begin to learn and begin to

51
00:02:10,805 --> 00:02:12,884
consider some of these principles we talk about

52
00:02:12,884 --> 00:02:14,264
on the Leading Saints podcast.

53
00:02:14,805 --> 00:02:15,705
Here we go.

54
00:02:23,419 --> 00:02:25,040
I'm here with Mike Hoteling.

55
00:02:25,580 --> 00:02:27,740
How are you, Mike? I'm great. I'm glad

56
00:02:27,740 --> 00:02:29,120
and terrified to be here.

57
00:02:29,659 --> 00:02:31,740
Now tell set the scene here. Like, this

58
00:02:31,740 --> 00:02:32,240
is

59
00:02:32,700 --> 00:02:33,680
an atypical,

60
00:02:34,060 --> 00:02:36,219
setting for the podcast I usually record. Where

61
00:02:36,219 --> 00:02:37,260
are we at and and what are we

62
00:02:37,260 --> 00:02:39,604
doing here? We are just outside of Wanship,

63
00:02:39,824 --> 00:02:40,324
Utah

64
00:02:40,705 --> 00:02:43,504
at Big Canyon Ranch at a men's Warrior

65
00:02:43,504 --> 00:02:45,745
Heart Boot Camp retreat. And this is the

66
00:02:45,745 --> 00:02:47,664
most beautiful place in the world, and we're

67
00:02:47,664 --> 00:02:50,224
surrounded by 12 of the most beautiful men

68
00:02:50,224 --> 00:02:51,750
in the world. That's right. We have a

69
00:02:51,830 --> 00:02:53,909
a live studio audience. Everybody make noise and

70
00:02:53,909 --> 00:02:54,569
say hi.

71
00:02:56,550 --> 00:02:58,949
Right. Wow. That sounded like almost 24, man.

72
00:02:58,949 --> 00:02:59,930
You know, that was good.

73
00:03:00,310 --> 00:03:02,629
So, yeah, we've we've promoted these these boot

74
00:03:02,629 --> 00:03:05,514
camps on the the podcast, and many many

75
00:03:05,514 --> 00:03:07,355
men are here because of some of those

76
00:03:07,355 --> 00:03:10,075
podcasts, the promotions we've done. And, you know,

77
00:03:10,075 --> 00:03:11,915
what what would you say, Mike? You're you're

78
00:03:11,915 --> 00:03:13,455
currently serving as a bishop,

79
00:03:13,835 --> 00:03:14,895
Latter day Saints.

80
00:03:15,355 --> 00:03:17,995
Here you are. What why should people check

81
00:03:17,995 --> 00:03:19,519
this out? I wish I could bring my

82
00:03:19,519 --> 00:03:21,919
entire YSA award here, male to the boot

83
00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:23,519
camps and females to the heart of a

84
00:03:23,519 --> 00:03:25,680
woman. Yeah. This is the real deal. It

85
00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,080
doesn't substitute for anything that we already believe

86
00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:30,580
in the church. It doesn't conflict with anything.

87
00:03:31,094 --> 00:03:34,055
It, helps me helped me and helps us

88
00:03:34,055 --> 00:03:34,794
to see

89
00:03:35,174 --> 00:03:37,495
another side of God that maybe we didn't

90
00:03:37,495 --> 00:03:39,174
learn growing up and maybe we weren't taught

91
00:03:39,174 --> 00:03:40,955
exactly this way in the church.

92
00:03:41,735 --> 00:03:43,495
Yeah. There's there's there's beauty in sort of

93
00:03:43,495 --> 00:03:45,719
stepping back and maybe taking a different perspective.

94
00:03:45,719 --> 00:03:47,719
Right? We That's right. I speak I speak

95
00:03:47,719 --> 00:03:49,900
Spanish, and there's nothing wrong with being bilingual

96
00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,000
spiritually as well. And so being able to

97
00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,260
see God in this way,

98
00:03:55,639 --> 00:03:57,955
it's a beautiful thing. Yeah. For sure. It's

99
00:03:57,955 --> 00:03:59,715
helpful. So if if people are listening, wanna

100
00:03:59,715 --> 00:04:01,395
check it out, I've done a few episodes

101
00:04:01,395 --> 00:04:02,835
on it. They're the one that comes to

102
00:04:02,835 --> 00:04:05,155
mind is if you search on leadingsaints.org

103
00:04:05,155 --> 00:04:08,034
for title is is elders quorum working? And

104
00:04:08,034 --> 00:04:08,775
we interview,

105
00:04:09,314 --> 00:04:10,215
Steve Shields,

106
00:04:10,830 --> 00:04:11,330
James,

107
00:04:11,789 --> 00:04:14,349
a lot of the presenters here and people

108
00:04:14,349 --> 00:04:15,550
who are involved, and they can give you

109
00:04:15,550 --> 00:04:17,149
a better idea. Some of the boot camp

110
00:04:17,149 --> 00:04:20,669
heroes. That's right. Then go to awarriorheart.com

111
00:04:20,669 --> 00:04:22,750
to get all the details, and hopefully, we'll

112
00:04:22,750 --> 00:04:24,045
see him at a future one.

113
00:04:24,365 --> 00:04:26,525
Don't delay. Next one, I think, is in

114
00:04:26,525 --> 00:04:30,444
November 2021. Don't miss the opportunity. That's right.

115
00:04:30,444 --> 00:04:32,685
That's right. Well, I wanted to while you're

116
00:04:32,685 --> 00:04:34,685
up here, you're originally you live in Georgia.

117
00:04:34,685 --> 00:04:36,125
You're not originally from there, but you live

118
00:04:36,125 --> 00:04:37,564
in Georgia. Yeah. We've been in Georgia a

119
00:04:37,564 --> 00:04:39,500
little over over thirty years, south just South

120
00:04:39,500 --> 00:04:40,160
of Atlanta.

121
00:04:40,460 --> 00:04:42,379
Was an air I was born in Utah,

122
00:04:42,379 --> 00:04:45,500
raised in Seattle, Washington, and, we my wife

123
00:04:45,500 --> 00:04:47,420
and I, after we married, moved, lived five

124
00:04:47,420 --> 00:04:49,100
years in Seattle, and then we've been in

125
00:04:49,100 --> 00:04:51,285
Atlanta for over thirty years, raised our family

126
00:04:51,285 --> 00:04:54,165
there. Nice. And you're currently serving as YSA

127
00:04:54,165 --> 00:04:56,584
Bishop. Yeah. Right? Tell us about the area,

128
00:04:56,644 --> 00:04:59,205
like that sort of thing. Yeah. We do

129
00:04:59,205 --> 00:05:01,764
not have a college or university that brings

130
00:05:01,764 --> 00:05:03,845
kids to us. Rather, we're like a local

131
00:05:03,845 --> 00:05:05,545
ward that we serve two stakes,

132
00:05:05,959 --> 00:05:07,100
two family steaks.

133
00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,040
And and so our kids come. We have

134
00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:11,560
more in the summer than we do in

135
00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:12,139
the wintertime.

136
00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:14,759
And we'll have 70 or 80 kids attend

137
00:05:14,759 --> 00:05:16,300
every Sunday in the summertime.

138
00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:18,759
And, it drops off a little in the

139
00:05:18,759 --> 00:05:20,620
fall as they're going off back to school,

140
00:05:20,794 --> 00:05:22,154
and then it picks back up in the

141
00:05:22,154 --> 00:05:23,834
in the summer. That's cool. So it's a

142
00:05:23,834 --> 00:05:26,634
beautiful area, super green. Georgia is a very,

143
00:05:26,634 --> 00:05:28,634
very pretty state. So you cover two stakes,

144
00:05:28,634 --> 00:05:31,035
but you are you're under the direction of

145
00:05:31,035 --> 00:05:32,475
one of those stake presidents. Right? Correct. Do

146
00:05:32,475 --> 00:05:33,995
you want me to name names of, of

147
00:05:33,995 --> 00:05:35,754
the stakes? Does it matter? Oh, whatever. Okay.

148
00:05:35,754 --> 00:05:39,509
Yeah. Well, I'm the Fayetteville, Georgia YSA Ward.

149
00:05:39,889 --> 00:05:41,970
We're in the Fayetteville, Georgia Stake, but we

150
00:05:41,970 --> 00:05:44,529
cover also most of the Newnan, Georgia Stake,

151
00:05:44,529 --> 00:05:46,610
which was just created less than a year

152
00:05:46,610 --> 00:05:48,290
ago. Yeah. So we've gotten to know each

153
00:05:48,290 --> 00:05:49,845
other, just the various boot camps we've been

154
00:05:49,845 --> 00:05:52,004
at together. And, I've learned a little bit

155
00:05:52,004 --> 00:05:54,164
about your story, not completely, but we got

156
00:05:54,164 --> 00:05:55,224
to drive up here.

157
00:05:55,524 --> 00:05:57,284
And I heard you reached out to me

158
00:05:57,284 --> 00:05:59,125
last few weeks, run on and shared with

159
00:05:59,125 --> 00:06:00,724
me that you'd recently been called as a

160
00:06:00,724 --> 00:06:03,129
bishop. And And I know you have an

161
00:06:03,129 --> 00:06:04,589
interesting past. Maybe. Maybe.

162
00:06:05,370 --> 00:06:07,470
I don't know if I would say atypical

163
00:06:08,009 --> 00:06:10,569
or different, but we're all on a journey

164
00:06:10,569 --> 00:06:12,750
of redemption and sinning

165
00:06:14,169 --> 00:06:17,154
and turning towards Christ. But sometimes we stigmatize

166
00:06:17,454 --> 00:06:19,055
some of those paths. Sometimes they think, yeah,

167
00:06:19,055 --> 00:06:21,475
Christ, he heals all and forgiveness

168
00:06:22,095 --> 00:06:24,814
is real. But maybe certain people shouldn't end

169
00:06:24,814 --> 00:06:26,274
up in high profile

170
00:06:26,975 --> 00:06:28,115
influential callings.

171
00:06:28,550 --> 00:06:30,149
But I really want to tear that stigma

172
00:06:30,149 --> 00:06:31,910
down because I've met so many people who

173
00:06:31,910 --> 00:06:34,069
I thought, you know, even people who've lost

174
00:06:34,069 --> 00:06:36,709
their membership or their membership been removed, they've

175
00:06:36,709 --> 00:06:37,930
come back. And I think, man,

176
00:06:38,389 --> 00:06:40,709
nobody better would be a bishop than, you

177
00:06:40,709 --> 00:06:41,610
know, I could list

178
00:06:42,230 --> 00:06:44,324
the names of men like that. And,

179
00:06:45,024 --> 00:06:46,784
a lot of times that's not, that's not

180
00:06:46,784 --> 00:06:49,104
an option or it isn't. We don't let

181
00:06:49,104 --> 00:06:50,865
it be an option. So let's go back

182
00:06:50,865 --> 00:06:52,485
to the beginning of your story.

183
00:06:53,504 --> 00:06:55,185
Where does it begin? What's what was the

184
00:06:55,185 --> 00:06:57,139
moment? Well, I would remind

185
00:06:57,439 --> 00:06:59,519
the listeners that, you should never trust a

186
00:06:59,519 --> 00:07:00,419
skinny cook.

187
00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,279
And, so I would never trust a a

188
00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,779
too holy bishop. That's, that's what I'll say.

189
00:07:06,399 --> 00:07:08,319
None of what I say is a is

190
00:07:08,319 --> 00:07:08,819
about

191
00:07:09,264 --> 00:07:09,764
blame.

192
00:07:10,464 --> 00:07:11,904
I'm gonna talk about my parents a little

193
00:07:11,904 --> 00:07:13,584
bit and how that created some wounds in

194
00:07:13,584 --> 00:07:15,745
me growing up and what that did to

195
00:07:15,745 --> 00:07:17,985
me and how I reacted, and they're still

196
00:07:17,985 --> 00:07:20,144
alive. This is not to blame them. They

197
00:07:20,144 --> 00:07:21,745
were good people that did the best they

198
00:07:21,745 --> 00:07:23,764
could, but it wasn't enough.

199
00:07:24,449 --> 00:07:27,089
And that's probably God's plan is that we

200
00:07:27,089 --> 00:07:29,329
have imperfect people around us so that we

201
00:07:29,329 --> 00:07:31,250
will seek him and and not seek them.

202
00:07:31,250 --> 00:07:33,569
But as I identify my wounds, it's it's

203
00:07:33,569 --> 00:07:35,729
not to blame anybody. It's just so that

204
00:07:35,729 --> 00:07:38,205
I could identify them, examine them, and actually

205
00:07:38,205 --> 00:07:40,045
have more love and compassion for them than

206
00:07:40,045 --> 00:07:42,865
I did in the midst of my afflictions,

207
00:07:42,925 --> 00:07:44,285
if you will. Yeah. You know that I

208
00:07:44,285 --> 00:07:45,665
appreciate you mentioning that because

209
00:07:46,045 --> 00:07:47,564
it's you know, there are there are some

210
00:07:47,564 --> 00:07:49,725
tragedies out there. There are some abusive parents,

211
00:07:49,725 --> 00:07:51,805
some people that really made some spiritual wounds

212
00:07:51,805 --> 00:07:51,964
that

213
00:07:52,779 --> 00:07:54,139
I mean, nobody would get out of some

214
00:07:54,139 --> 00:07:56,459
of those relationships without spiritual wounds. A lot

215
00:07:56,459 --> 00:07:59,180
of times, it's the wounds of mortality. People

216
00:07:59,180 --> 00:08:01,040
doing the with their best intentions,

217
00:08:01,740 --> 00:08:03,339
help trying to help somebody, and they end

218
00:08:03,339 --> 00:08:05,740
up, you know, maybe take pushing someone the

219
00:08:05,740 --> 00:08:07,259
the direction they didn't mean to push them.

220
00:08:07,259 --> 00:08:10,464
Yeah. Yeah. Everybody's got problems, and we inflict

221
00:08:10,464 --> 00:08:12,544
those on everybody around us. And and the

222
00:08:12,544 --> 00:08:14,865
job is is, not to blame anybody, but

223
00:08:14,865 --> 00:08:17,104
to understand them, and only then can we

224
00:08:17,104 --> 00:08:19,365
process them, I think, and move forward. So

225
00:08:19,504 --> 00:08:20,485
as a young kid,

226
00:08:20,899 --> 00:08:22,580
we I was born in Provo, Utah. We

227
00:08:22,580 --> 00:08:24,100
moved to Seattle when I was about six

228
00:08:24,100 --> 00:08:24,759
years old.

229
00:08:25,460 --> 00:08:27,060
There was a lot of stress and confusion

230
00:08:27,060 --> 00:08:28,439
and chaos in our home.

231
00:08:28,980 --> 00:08:30,819
A lot going on between mom and dad.

232
00:08:30,819 --> 00:08:34,259
Dad, in in the mid sixties, like 1965

233
00:08:34,259 --> 00:08:36,325
or so, he was a 100,000

234
00:08:36,465 --> 00:08:37,925
miler for United Airlines,

235
00:08:38,305 --> 00:08:40,545
which today is nothing, but that was a

236
00:08:40,545 --> 00:08:42,705
big deal in the mid sixties. He traveled

237
00:08:42,705 --> 00:08:44,384
a lot. He was gone a lot. And

238
00:08:44,384 --> 00:08:46,384
and so he was absent. So mom raised

239
00:08:46,384 --> 00:08:47,205
six kids.

240
00:08:47,850 --> 00:08:50,730
And I think that in dad's absence, mom

241
00:08:50,730 --> 00:08:51,549
tried to create

242
00:08:51,929 --> 00:08:54,409
strong emotional bonds to get support from us

243
00:08:54,409 --> 00:08:54,909
kids.

244
00:08:55,529 --> 00:08:58,169
There was no sexual abuse or or beatings

245
00:08:58,169 --> 00:08:59,450
or anything like that, but I think there

246
00:08:59,450 --> 00:09:00,350
was an emotional

247
00:09:01,274 --> 00:09:03,115
incest is the way that I describe it.

248
00:09:03,115 --> 00:09:04,315
Yeah. And that's a I mean, that's a

249
00:09:04,315 --> 00:09:05,754
clinical term, is it? I mean, the therapist

250
00:09:05,754 --> 00:09:07,514
will use that. I've I've read one book

251
00:09:07,514 --> 00:09:09,514
about it. Nobody's nobody's told me that or

252
00:09:09,514 --> 00:09:11,434
diagnosed me with it. That's my self diagnosis.

253
00:09:11,434 --> 00:09:12,714
And it's sort of a shocking term, but

254
00:09:12,714 --> 00:09:15,115
basically mean that your mother was turning to

255
00:09:15,115 --> 00:09:16,095
you for that

256
00:09:16,409 --> 00:09:16,909
emotional

257
00:09:17,289 --> 00:09:19,209
support that she needed and didn't get in

258
00:09:19,209 --> 00:09:21,629
in the in the relationship there. Yeah.

259
00:09:22,009 --> 00:09:24,589
So from the outside, six kids, we were

260
00:09:24,730 --> 00:09:26,809
good looking and smart and talented, and and

261
00:09:26,809 --> 00:09:28,990
we were pretty normal or or maybe

262
00:09:29,610 --> 00:09:31,230
normal plus from the outside.

263
00:09:31,595 --> 00:09:32,715
But at home, there was a lot of

264
00:09:32,715 --> 00:09:33,735
turmoil. And,

265
00:09:34,235 --> 00:09:36,394
there was there was a lot of I

266
00:09:36,394 --> 00:09:38,575
mean, from the outside looking in, pretty traditional

267
00:09:38,634 --> 00:09:42,235
Latter day Absolutely. Absolutely. Church every Sunday, everybody

268
00:09:42,235 --> 00:09:43,835
doing what they're supposed to do for the

269
00:09:43,835 --> 00:09:44,815
most part. Yeah.

270
00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:46,679
Nobody went to jail. So

271
00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:50,039
Yeah, anyway. But internally, I didn't know how

272
00:09:50,039 --> 00:09:53,580
to handle these emotional difficulties and these triggers.

273
00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:55,799
It was hard. And so at a very

274
00:09:55,799 --> 00:09:56,620
young age,

275
00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:59,784
began to isolate, feel shame over not being

276
00:09:59,784 --> 00:10:01,304
proud of who I was and who they

277
00:10:01,304 --> 00:10:03,225
were and stuff. And about ten years old,

278
00:10:03,225 --> 00:10:05,084
a friend showed me a Playboy magazine

279
00:10:05,384 --> 00:10:07,164
that was the greatest thing I'd ever seen.

280
00:10:07,304 --> 00:10:09,725
For me, it was like snorting cocaine instantly.

281
00:10:09,784 --> 00:10:11,304
I was hooked. I knew that I'd do

282
00:10:11,304 --> 00:10:12,960
whatever it took for as long as it

283
00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,920
took me to continue to get that feeling.

284
00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:17,759
I know that not everybody that drinks becomes

285
00:10:17,759 --> 00:10:19,440
an alcoholic and not everybody that looks at

286
00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:21,920
porn Right. Becomes a porn addict, but for

287
00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:23,920
me, it was instant. I at 10 I'm

288
00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:25,360
10 years old. I'm a cub scout, you

289
00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:26,399
know? Yeah. And,

290
00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:28,725
I have no idea what's happening to me.

291
00:10:28,804 --> 00:10:29,304
Yeah.

292
00:10:30,245 --> 00:10:30,745
So

293
00:10:31,684 --> 00:10:32,964
I used to visit a friend and we'd

294
00:10:32,964 --> 00:10:34,804
ride through the woods and under a log

295
00:10:34,804 --> 00:10:37,204
was hidden a Tide box, and I've I

296
00:10:37,204 --> 00:10:39,444
discovered there was a stash of Playboy magazines.

297
00:10:39,444 --> 00:10:40,565
You didn't know whose it was? It was

298
00:10:40,565 --> 00:10:42,245
just there? Yeah. It was just there. He

299
00:10:42,245 --> 00:10:44,220
found it, showed me, and and so I

300
00:10:44,220 --> 00:10:45,279
visit the Tidebox

301
00:10:45,659 --> 00:10:48,799
often. And my shame got deeper and deeper,

302
00:10:48,940 --> 00:10:51,980
and it increased. And and then doing the

303
00:10:51,980 --> 00:10:54,399
addiction became a way to escape the shame.

304
00:10:54,620 --> 00:10:56,220
So I don't know, you know, which comes

305
00:10:56,220 --> 00:10:57,580
first, the chicken or the egg? Is it

306
00:10:57,580 --> 00:11:00,664
shame or or the addiction? But, boy, they

307
00:11:00,884 --> 00:11:03,205
they cohabitate, and they they really promote each

308
00:11:03,205 --> 00:11:04,804
other. And talk talk me through that that

309
00:11:04,804 --> 00:11:07,445
initial shame, like, because you were hearing were

310
00:11:07,445 --> 00:11:09,125
you hearing messages at church, like, you shouldn't

311
00:11:09,125 --> 00:11:10,485
look at these things, but you were drawn

312
00:11:10,485 --> 00:11:12,245
to it? Like, it wasn't that Oh, absolutely.

313
00:11:12,245 --> 00:11:13,649
It was it was forbidden. It was the

314
00:11:13,649 --> 00:11:14,870
wrong thing to do.

315
00:11:15,730 --> 00:11:17,410
I I was confused because I had friends,

316
00:11:17,410 --> 00:11:19,009
and I used to babysit for some leaders,

317
00:11:19,009 --> 00:11:21,410
and I would see Playboy magazines in in

318
00:11:21,410 --> 00:11:23,410
their home. And I was confused about some

319
00:11:23,410 --> 00:11:24,929
of this, but I knew that it was

320
00:11:24,929 --> 00:11:26,690
wrong, that I wasn't supposed to be doing

321
00:11:26,690 --> 00:11:28,475
it. Yeah. Yeah. And it's more of the,

322
00:11:28,955 --> 00:11:30,475
that you knew it was wrong, but you

323
00:11:30,475 --> 00:11:32,394
wanted it so bad. Right? Absolutely. Oh, yeah.

324
00:11:32,394 --> 00:11:34,075
That's where the shame just Oh, yeah. I

325
00:11:34,075 --> 00:11:35,995
was I was out of control. Again, I

326
00:11:35,995 --> 00:11:38,634
started at 10 years old. There was I

327
00:11:38,634 --> 00:11:40,080
didn't know what to do. I was I

328
00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:42,399
could not regulate my emotions or my desires

329
00:11:42,399 --> 00:11:45,040
at that point. Yeah. Wow. So that continued,

330
00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,519
and I remember about 14 years old, I

331
00:11:47,519 --> 00:11:49,840
was reading a TV guide. You remember those?

332
00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:51,920
Yeah. Remember, I'm born in 1958,

333
00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:52,420
so

334
00:11:52,745 --> 00:11:55,144
it's early 70s. I'm about 14. I'm reading

335
00:11:55,144 --> 00:11:56,745
a TV guide about some rock star and

336
00:11:56,745 --> 00:11:59,804
he's describing his heroin addiction, the addiction cycle,

337
00:12:00,024 --> 00:12:01,164
the guilt, the craving,

338
00:12:02,105 --> 00:12:04,345
and the acting out. And I realized by

339
00:12:04,345 --> 00:12:07,304
reading his heroin story, I am addicted to

340
00:12:07,304 --> 00:12:07,804
pornography.

341
00:12:08,379 --> 00:12:09,899
And that word had never been put to

342
00:12:09,899 --> 00:12:11,259
it to me. And I should say, in

343
00:12:11,259 --> 00:12:12,240
the Sinai on '14,

344
00:12:12,620 --> 00:12:14,779
my being ordained a deacon was delayed to

345
00:12:14,779 --> 00:12:16,379
give me time to repent. Like, being I

346
00:12:16,379 --> 00:12:18,620
was open with my bishops. Being ordained a

347
00:12:18,620 --> 00:12:19,120
teacher,

348
00:12:19,740 --> 00:12:21,199
a priest, even an elder

349
00:12:21,500 --> 00:12:23,825
was delayed in order to give me Was

350
00:12:23,825 --> 00:12:25,345
it hard for you the first time to

351
00:12:25,345 --> 00:12:27,024
to open up or and share that with

352
00:12:27,024 --> 00:12:28,304
your bishop? Or did you share it with

353
00:12:28,304 --> 00:12:30,705
your parents? Or didn't talk about I got

354
00:12:30,705 --> 00:12:32,304
caught by my parents a time or two

355
00:12:32,304 --> 00:12:34,065
over the years, but I didn't share it

356
00:12:34,065 --> 00:12:36,384
with them. No. But I was pretty open

357
00:12:36,384 --> 00:12:38,950
with my bishop. I wanted help, and I

358
00:12:38,950 --> 00:12:40,309
didn't know what the source was. And, of

359
00:12:40,309 --> 00:12:41,370
course, good bishops,

360
00:12:41,830 --> 00:12:43,589
all they could say at the time was,

361
00:12:43,589 --> 00:12:45,589
oh, well, just stop doing that, and then

362
00:12:45,589 --> 00:12:47,110
your depression will go away. Oh, just stop

363
00:12:47,110 --> 00:12:48,709
doing that, and you'll feel better about yourself.

364
00:12:48,709 --> 00:12:50,789
Oh, just stop doing that. Like as if

365
00:12:50,789 --> 00:12:53,054
the porn was the source. Exactly. Like, porn

366
00:12:53,054 --> 00:12:54,894
was the source. Like, that was the problem.

367
00:12:54,894 --> 00:12:55,934
And, of course, that's one of the things

368
00:12:55,934 --> 00:12:57,134
I've come to learn is porn is not

369
00:12:57,134 --> 00:12:58,495
the issue. Porn is a symptom. You know?

370
00:12:58,495 --> 00:13:00,414
They may like it stimulate that the addiction

371
00:13:00,414 --> 00:13:03,375
cycle to keep going. Right? Right. But so

372
00:13:03,375 --> 00:13:05,429
I thought, well, duh, Bishop. I've I never

373
00:13:05,429 --> 00:13:08,529
thought of not doing that anymore. You know?

374
00:13:08,710 --> 00:13:11,190
Every day. Gee, what a good idea. That's

375
00:13:11,190 --> 00:13:13,590
a novel idea. Yeah. So And this is

376
00:13:13,590 --> 00:13:16,009
back in the in the early sixties? Yeah.

377
00:13:16,549 --> 00:13:19,450
Yeah. So late sixties, early sixties. I mean,

378
00:13:19,565 --> 00:13:21,985
I bet most bishops just I mean, there's

379
00:13:22,204 --> 00:13:24,544
nothing, no perspective. I mean, people aren't openly

380
00:13:24,605 --> 00:13:26,445
talking about this stuff. There's no discussion, the

381
00:13:26,445 --> 00:13:28,605
idea of quote addiction. It was just, it

382
00:13:28,605 --> 00:13:30,445
was just weakness. It was just bad habits.

383
00:13:30,445 --> 00:13:31,245
It was just,

384
00:13:32,129 --> 00:13:34,690
you know, compulsive behavior maybe, but there was

385
00:13:34,690 --> 00:13:37,570
no real discussion of addiction in conference or

386
00:13:37,570 --> 00:13:39,090
in church meetings or anything like that. And

387
00:13:39,090 --> 00:13:40,850
again, going back to the best intentions, your

388
00:13:40,850 --> 00:13:43,330
bishops, so good people. Oh, yeah. Great people.

389
00:13:43,330 --> 00:13:45,105
And I love them. And they they they

390
00:13:45,105 --> 00:13:47,425
give the best guidance they had, but it

391
00:13:47,425 --> 00:13:47,925
wasn't

392
00:13:48,384 --> 00:13:48,965
good enough.

393
00:13:49,745 --> 00:13:50,384
Yeah. So

394
00:13:51,024 --> 00:13:52,465
So you did my mission. Yeah. So you

395
00:13:52,465 --> 00:13:53,825
get up to your mission. Everything just gets

396
00:13:53,825 --> 00:13:55,225
pushed back. Everything's gonna be in the basement.

397
00:13:55,504 --> 00:13:57,710
My mission call. I screwed up again shortly

398
00:13:57,710 --> 00:13:58,990
after I had my mission call before I

399
00:13:58,990 --> 00:14:00,190
was supposed to report. Went to talk to

400
00:14:00,190 --> 00:14:01,790
the bishop. He called the stake president. They

401
00:14:01,790 --> 00:14:03,549
called Salt Lake. Well, if he can just

402
00:14:03,549 --> 00:14:04,830
hang on and tell you reports to the

403
00:14:04,830 --> 00:14:07,629
MTC, we'll still let him go. And so

404
00:14:07,629 --> 00:14:09,230
I go on my mission and And where'd

405
00:14:09,230 --> 00:14:11,649
you go? Argentina. Cortoba, Argentina.

406
00:14:17,575 --> 00:14:19,815
Best mission in the world. Awesome. Had a

407
00:14:19,815 --> 00:14:21,674
great mission president, great companions,

408
00:14:22,535 --> 00:14:25,335
and stayed clean for most of my mission,

409
00:14:25,335 --> 00:14:27,470
probably twenty months. Yeah. And then in the

410
00:14:27,470 --> 00:14:29,230
end, fail on my mission. And for me

411
00:14:29,309 --> 00:14:30,509
When you say stay clean, what do you

412
00:14:30,509 --> 00:14:32,830
mean with pornography or masturbation? I didn't seek

413
00:14:32,830 --> 00:14:35,629
pornography. I didn't masturbate. Yep. And and so

414
00:14:35,629 --> 00:14:35,789
I

415
00:14:36,669 --> 00:14:39,470
but then having that occur again at the

416
00:14:39,470 --> 00:14:40,934
end of my mission, then that made my

417
00:14:40,934 --> 00:14:42,795
entire mission a failure for me.

418
00:14:43,335 --> 00:14:46,295
Increase the shame. Increase the the Man, you

419
00:14:46,295 --> 00:14:48,134
just hear the adversary's message in that. Right?

420
00:14:48,134 --> 00:14:50,315
Like, the rest of the twenty months,

421
00:14:50,695 --> 00:14:52,875
flush it down the toilet. Right? Doesn't count.

422
00:14:53,029 --> 00:14:54,870
Yeah. That's how powerful shame is. Oh, yeah.

423
00:14:54,870 --> 00:14:56,950
Absolutely. None of that counted. And part of

424
00:14:56,950 --> 00:14:59,370
that's, you know, our LDS culture and our

425
00:14:59,669 --> 00:15:00,169
misunderstanding

426
00:15:01,509 --> 00:15:03,509
of, you know, all the sins return if

427
00:15:03,509 --> 00:15:05,190
we go back to our that's not what

428
00:15:05,190 --> 00:15:07,110
that means. But but I didn't know that

429
00:15:07,110 --> 00:15:08,625
at the time. Yeah. So I came home.

430
00:15:08,625 --> 00:15:10,225
I remember even telling the mission prep I

431
00:15:10,225 --> 00:15:11,585
mean, I came home one time, but I

432
00:15:11,585 --> 00:15:13,264
remember telling the mission president, I'm not even

433
00:15:13,264 --> 00:15:15,184
gonna ask you for a temp recommend. And

434
00:15:15,184 --> 00:15:16,804
I I told him what I'd done, and

435
00:15:16,865 --> 00:15:18,705
and he said, well, that's up to you.

436
00:15:18,705 --> 00:15:18,945
And,

437
00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,720
so I come home. My shame's deeper than

438
00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:24,799
ever. And my You can't even keep it

439
00:15:24,799 --> 00:15:26,480
together when you're a missionary. Right? Like, that's

440
00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:28,480
the shame I'm just saying. Really, really be

441
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:30,399
a bad person. And see, that's the message

442
00:15:30,399 --> 00:15:32,000
I'm getting all through these first twenty, twenty

443
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:33,839
one years of my life is that everybody

444
00:15:33,839 --> 00:15:35,440
else is normal. I'm the only one that's

445
00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,400
suffering these things. If, you know, the classic,

446
00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,333
if you knew who I was, you couldn't

447
00:15:41,333 --> 00:15:44,265
love me. I'm a terrible person. I must

448
00:15:44,265 --> 00:15:47,197
be like the Jews that spat on Christ.

449
00:15:47,197 --> 00:15:50,129
I'm the whitest sepulcher with the the the

450
00:15:50,210 --> 00:15:52,789
bones inside and the rotting flesh. I sting.

451
00:15:53,090 --> 00:15:55,649
I'm horrible. Mhmm. And and nobody else is

452
00:15:55,649 --> 00:15:57,169
like this. And if they knew who I

453
00:15:57,169 --> 00:15:59,809
was, they couldn't love me. Yeah. And I

454
00:15:59,809 --> 00:16:02,049
discovered I didn't love myself. I figured I

455
00:16:02,049 --> 00:16:03,730
must hate the savior. I figured he must

456
00:16:03,730 --> 00:16:06,134
hate me. Why else would I do this

457
00:16:06,754 --> 00:16:08,995
if I wasn't one of those that would

458
00:16:08,995 --> 00:16:10,134
have, you know,

459
00:16:10,595 --> 00:16:12,195
mocked him and stuff? Because I felt like

460
00:16:12,195 --> 00:16:14,035
I was mocking. Right. Yeah. I mean, man,

461
00:16:14,035 --> 00:16:15,394
I shouldn't do this, and I know I

462
00:16:15,394 --> 00:16:16,915
shouldn't, but I still return to it. It's

463
00:16:16,915 --> 00:16:18,355
like I'm slapping him in the face. Right?

464
00:16:18,355 --> 00:16:20,139
Right. Right. It's kinda

465
00:16:20,519 --> 00:16:22,360
like, Mark Twain said, it's easy to quit

466
00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:24,460
smoking. I've done it hundreds of times. Right.

467
00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:26,940
You know, so I I had quit, pornography

468
00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:28,679
hundreds of times. I swore it'd be the

469
00:16:28,679 --> 00:16:30,360
last I even had a a well meaning

470
00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,074
home teacher say, have you ever asked the

471
00:16:33,074 --> 00:16:34,674
Lord that if you ever did it again

472
00:16:34,674 --> 00:16:36,694
that he would take your life? Oh, wow.

473
00:16:37,074 --> 00:16:38,214
Okay. That was unhelpful.

474
00:16:38,875 --> 00:16:39,375
But

475
00:16:40,355 --> 00:16:43,314
Again, best intentions somewhere. Right. I guess. No.

476
00:16:43,314 --> 00:16:44,134
No. Absolutely.

477
00:16:44,514 --> 00:16:47,289
And, again, I and I never wanted I

478
00:16:47,289 --> 00:16:48,889
never tried or wanted to commit suicide, but

479
00:16:48,889 --> 00:16:50,250
there were many times when I did wish

480
00:16:50,250 --> 00:16:51,529
I was dead. I would just wish I

481
00:16:51,529 --> 00:16:53,450
didn't have to deal with it. Yeah. Couldn't

482
00:16:53,450 --> 00:16:55,850
do it. So I had bishops tell me,

483
00:16:55,850 --> 00:16:57,450
hey. No problem. Once you get married, you

484
00:16:57,450 --> 00:16:59,769
can have real sex, and pornography won't be

485
00:16:59,769 --> 00:17:02,154
an attraction. And then later after marriage, had

486
00:17:02,154 --> 00:17:03,514
a stake present trying to work with us

487
00:17:03,514 --> 00:17:05,035
saying that, well, if you had sex every

488
00:17:05,035 --> 00:17:07,275
day with Andrea, your wife would that would

489
00:17:07,275 --> 00:17:10,234
solve it. Right? Again, best intentions, but no

490
00:17:10,234 --> 00:17:12,654
clue about what's going on. Yeah.

491
00:17:13,035 --> 00:17:15,134
So we got engaged, and

492
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:16,700
then

493
00:17:17,159 --> 00:17:19,399
my problem surfaced again. You know, I'd gone

494
00:17:19,399 --> 00:17:21,000
months and months without, and then my problem

495
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,480
surfaced again because it was never solved. Yeah.

496
00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:25,240
Yeah. Right. And and did you discuss it

497
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,399
with your wife before you got married? Well,

498
00:17:27,399 --> 00:17:28,539
we delayed our marriage.

499
00:17:28,919 --> 00:17:31,179
So more delays? I call yep. More delays.

500
00:17:31,615 --> 00:17:33,855
Life's on hold. So I call I was

501
00:17:33,855 --> 00:17:35,134
I was scheduled to go visit her at

502
00:17:35,134 --> 00:17:36,654
Thanksgiving. We were supposed to get married in

503
00:17:36,654 --> 00:17:38,335
December. I was living out west. She was

504
00:17:38,335 --> 00:17:39,154
in North Carolina.

505
00:17:39,454 --> 00:17:41,934
And I called on the phone, canceled you

506
00:17:41,934 --> 00:17:43,134
know, it was pre cell phone, so I

507
00:17:43,134 --> 00:17:45,500
couldn't text her the cancellation of our wedding.

508
00:17:45,500 --> 00:17:46,000
So

509
00:17:46,619 --> 00:17:48,380
I called her and said, hey, it's just

510
00:17:48,380 --> 00:17:49,900
not gonna work. Talk to you when I

511
00:17:49,900 --> 00:17:50,480
get there.

512
00:17:50,859 --> 00:17:53,419
Again, more shame, more embarrassment. And so when

513
00:17:53,419 --> 00:17:55,019
I got to her over Thanksgiving, then we

514
00:17:55,019 --> 00:17:56,720
sat and talked, and I told her everything.

515
00:17:57,045 --> 00:17:59,065
Told her everything that I knew about it.

516
00:17:59,285 --> 00:18:01,305
She and I agreed with the bishop that

517
00:18:01,525 --> 00:18:02,805
once we got married, it wouldn't be a

518
00:18:02,805 --> 00:18:05,045
problem. Right? Yeah. Because why would you want

519
00:18:05,045 --> 00:18:07,605
pornography if you had real sex? And we

520
00:18:07,605 --> 00:18:09,765
had no idea. But so we reset a

521
00:18:09,765 --> 00:18:11,200
date and and

522
00:18:11,500 --> 00:18:13,500
delayed a couple of months and got married,

523
00:18:13,660 --> 00:18:14,640
the February.

524
00:18:15,099 --> 00:18:16,700
And and life was life was gonna be

525
00:18:16,700 --> 00:18:18,380
good. I was gonna be normal then. Mhmm.

526
00:18:18,380 --> 00:18:20,799
You're free. I was free. It was over.

527
00:18:21,339 --> 00:18:22,859
I came to see my life, and then,

528
00:18:22,859 --> 00:18:24,720
of course, that wasn't true because

529
00:18:25,214 --> 00:18:27,315
pornography has nothing to do with sex.

530
00:18:28,255 --> 00:18:30,654
Non addicts won't understand that, but the best

531
00:18:30,654 --> 00:18:32,414
analogy I've come up with over the years

532
00:18:32,414 --> 00:18:33,075
is that

533
00:18:33,375 --> 00:18:35,454
porn has no more to do with sex

534
00:18:35,454 --> 00:18:36,515
than alcoholism

535
00:18:36,894 --> 00:18:38,194
has to do with thirst.

536
00:18:39,130 --> 00:18:42,509
An alcoholic does not drink because he's thirsty.

537
00:18:43,130 --> 00:18:44,970
He drinks because he has underlying issues. And

538
00:18:44,970 --> 00:18:47,450
a porn addict doesn't look at porn because

539
00:18:47,450 --> 00:18:49,210
he needs more sex or needs better sex

540
00:18:49,210 --> 00:18:50,650
or needs a different kind of sex or

541
00:18:50,650 --> 00:18:52,575
needs other sex partners. A porn addict looks

542
00:18:52,575 --> 00:18:54,335
at sex for the same reason that an

543
00:18:54,335 --> 00:18:56,894
alcoholic drinks, and that's because of unmet needs.

544
00:18:56,894 --> 00:18:58,654
I had a counselor tell me twenty years

545
00:18:58,654 --> 00:19:00,015
ago before I was ready to hear it

546
00:19:00,015 --> 00:19:02,255
that he only knew of two ways this

547
00:19:02,255 --> 00:19:04,015
illustrates that point. He only knew of two

548
00:19:04,015 --> 00:19:04,755
ways to

549
00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:07,039
get rid of an addiction, and one was

550
00:19:07,039 --> 00:19:09,600
to trade it for another addiction. Mhmm. He

551
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:11,200
said, we see that a lot. I don't

552
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:12,019
recommend it.

553
00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,799
But the other way was to honestly work

554
00:19:14,799 --> 00:19:15,940
a 12 step program.

555
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:18,080
And it was through that and that kind

556
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,019
of that analogy that and it's true.

557
00:19:20,644 --> 00:19:22,664
Different addictions have different consequences.

558
00:19:23,044 --> 00:19:23,544
Mhmm.

559
00:19:24,164 --> 00:19:27,284
Addictions are the same whether it's cutting, porn,

560
00:19:27,284 --> 00:19:30,505
anger, gambling, hair pulling, having to be right,

561
00:19:30,644 --> 00:19:33,304
porn. It doesn't matter. Alcohol, drugs,

562
00:19:33,660 --> 00:19:35,580
it doesn't matter what the addiction is. The

563
00:19:35,580 --> 00:19:38,859
root cause and the root solution is the

564
00:19:38,859 --> 00:19:39,359
same

565
00:19:39,820 --> 00:19:40,799
even though consequences

566
00:19:41,420 --> 00:19:42,559
are different sometimes.

567
00:19:42,940 --> 00:19:44,160
Yeah. Wow. So,

568
00:19:45,100 --> 00:19:47,119
how soon after your marriage did you realize

569
00:19:48,105 --> 00:19:49,625
maybe you had some slip ups or whatever?

570
00:19:49,625 --> 00:19:50,984
Did you think, oh, wow, this didn't go

571
00:19:50,984 --> 00:19:52,825
away? You know, I don't remember exactly, but

572
00:19:52,825 --> 00:19:54,025
it it would have only been a couple

573
00:19:54,025 --> 00:19:56,825
months. Yeah. And and terrible shame, of course,

574
00:19:57,065 --> 00:19:58,605
associated with that. I confessed

575
00:19:59,065 --> 00:20:00,984
multiple times to my wife through the years.

576
00:20:00,984 --> 00:20:02,859
She also caught me a couple of times

577
00:20:02,859 --> 00:20:03,920
through the years. I've

578
00:20:04,700 --> 00:20:06,700
left a magazine around or something stupid like

579
00:20:06,700 --> 00:20:07,200
that.

580
00:20:07,579 --> 00:20:08,079
And

581
00:20:08,380 --> 00:20:09,900
she says, I think you wanted to get

582
00:20:09,900 --> 00:20:11,500
caught. And maybe I did, but I still

583
00:20:11,500 --> 00:20:12,320
wasn't ready

584
00:20:12,660 --> 00:20:13,160
to

585
00:20:13,500 --> 00:20:14,799
be healed. I

586
00:20:15,180 --> 00:20:16,880
didn't understand the difference between

587
00:20:17,295 --> 00:20:19,375
sobriety and recovery. I thought that, you know,

588
00:20:19,375 --> 00:20:21,615
sobriety, just not doing it, is what I

589
00:20:21,615 --> 00:20:23,775
was after. And I didn't realize that there

590
00:20:23,775 --> 00:20:24,595
was healing

591
00:20:25,215 --> 00:20:27,855
and healing and recovery available to me. I

592
00:20:27,855 --> 00:20:30,099
thought all there was was maybe sobriety. And

593
00:20:30,099 --> 00:20:31,159
that's really the pitfall,

594
00:20:31,539 --> 00:20:33,619
especially as a church leader. You can get

595
00:20:33,619 --> 00:20:35,859
so much in that effort of, well, let's

596
00:20:35,859 --> 00:20:37,779
just get the behavior under control. Right. And

597
00:20:37,779 --> 00:20:39,619
then then we'll worry about the healing or

598
00:20:39,619 --> 00:20:41,139
or once the behavior is going, like your

599
00:20:41,139 --> 00:20:43,125
Bishop said earlier, that's the that's doing the

600
00:20:43,125 --> 00:20:44,724
the hurting, so Be clean for a month,

601
00:20:44,724 --> 00:20:46,005
be clean for three months, and then we'll

602
00:20:46,005 --> 00:20:48,724
go. But you've never resolved the wounds and

603
00:20:48,724 --> 00:20:50,404
the hurting that was underneath in the first

604
00:20:50,404 --> 00:20:52,184
place. My shame was never addressed.

605
00:20:52,644 --> 00:20:54,265
My fears were never addressed.

606
00:20:55,029 --> 00:20:55,849
All these years,

607
00:20:56,150 --> 00:20:58,150
I'm 62 now and I'm still just a

608
00:20:58,150 --> 00:21:00,329
little boy that wants to be loved. Yeah.

609
00:21:00,390 --> 00:21:02,630
I wanted some control. I wanted some love.

610
00:21:02,630 --> 00:21:03,289
I wanted

611
00:21:03,670 --> 00:21:04,809
I wanted to be accepted.

612
00:21:05,190 --> 00:21:07,509
And porn, any addiction gives you a certain

613
00:21:07,509 --> 00:21:09,914
amount of control, a certain amount, you know,

614
00:21:10,075 --> 00:21:12,475
if I'm depressed, I can elevate my mood.

615
00:21:12,475 --> 00:21:14,475
If if my mood if I'm too high,

616
00:21:14,475 --> 00:21:15,914
you know, high in a mood, I can

617
00:21:15,914 --> 00:21:18,154
suppress my mood. You know, addiction does that

618
00:21:18,154 --> 00:21:20,095
for you. We do addictions because

619
00:21:20,475 --> 00:21:21,994
for a very short period of time, they

620
00:21:21,994 --> 00:21:23,195
work. And you don't have to look at

621
00:21:23,195 --> 00:21:25,035
the the wounding that's happened in your life,

622
00:21:25,035 --> 00:21:26,730
the spiritual spiritual wounding or the hurt Right.

623
00:21:26,849 --> 00:21:27,830
When you can just

624
00:21:28,289 --> 00:21:30,210
control that and numb out. Right? Or whether

625
00:21:30,210 --> 00:21:32,049
that numbing means bringing you up or or

626
00:21:32,049 --> 00:21:34,289
the numb numbing means bringing you down. Right.

627
00:21:34,289 --> 00:21:35,570
Right. And every time you do it, of

628
00:21:35,570 --> 00:21:37,590
course, then you're creating new wounds for yourself,

629
00:21:38,524 --> 00:21:40,444
and you're creating new guilt, a new shame,

630
00:21:40,444 --> 00:21:42,464
and and it just keeps kind of going.

631
00:21:42,684 --> 00:21:44,524
So in this I mean, you talked you

632
00:21:44,524 --> 00:21:46,605
mentioned before you record the the thirty eight

633
00:21:46,605 --> 00:21:48,365
year journey. I mean, is that I mean,

634
00:21:48,365 --> 00:21:51,085
just sort of this cycle, whether sometimes it

635
00:21:51,085 --> 00:21:53,380
was a really short cycle, maybe other times

636
00:21:53,380 --> 00:21:55,299
it was a longer cycle, but nonetheless, the

637
00:21:55,299 --> 00:21:56,580
cycle was happening for those thirty days. It

638
00:21:56,580 --> 00:21:58,100
was always there. Yeah. It was always there.

639
00:21:58,100 --> 00:21:59,859
If you'd if you'd offered me a thousand

640
00:21:59,859 --> 00:22:00,680
dollars to

641
00:22:01,380 --> 00:22:03,539
abstain for x period of time, I probably

642
00:22:03,539 --> 00:22:04,924
would have failed

643
00:22:05,225 --> 00:22:08,365
the day before or whatever because deadlines, pressures,

644
00:22:08,705 --> 00:22:09,205
you

645
00:22:09,545 --> 00:22:11,705
know, those are all artificial things. They have

646
00:22:11,705 --> 00:22:14,025
nothing to do with healing and recovery. They

647
00:22:14,025 --> 00:22:17,225
only have to do with artificial sobriety. Mhmm.

648
00:22:17,225 --> 00:22:19,384
And not doing it is not the same

649
00:22:19,384 --> 00:22:22,269
as being healed and being in recovery. So

650
00:22:22,269 --> 00:22:24,190
at what point did you and may I

651
00:22:24,190 --> 00:22:25,389
don't know if this is the next sort

652
00:22:25,389 --> 00:22:27,149
of step in your recovery, but when did

653
00:22:27,149 --> 00:22:29,069
you turn to the 12 steps? I don't

654
00:22:29,069 --> 00:22:30,509
know. At that time, was the church did

655
00:22:30,509 --> 00:22:32,529
the church have their formal 12 step program?

656
00:22:32,904 --> 00:22:34,744
They had they had just started it. About

657
00:22:34,744 --> 00:22:37,785
fifteen, sixteen years ago from now, I kinda

658
00:22:37,785 --> 00:22:39,464
hit a rock bottom. I was in a

659
00:22:39,464 --> 00:22:41,625
community play, and I had to kiss this

660
00:22:41,625 --> 00:22:43,625
girl on stage, and I started kissing her

661
00:22:43,625 --> 00:22:44,984
off stage trying to figure out what would

662
00:22:44,984 --> 00:22:46,424
be the next step. How do I how

663
00:22:46,424 --> 00:22:48,960
do I pursue that? Yeah. And then about

664
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:50,880
the same time, three o'clock in the morning,

665
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:52,240
one morning, my wife came down to the

666
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:53,680
basement. You know, we had a two story

667
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,519
house plus a basement, and she made her

668
00:22:55,519 --> 00:22:56,960
way down to the basement about three in

669
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:58,820
the morning and caught me on the computer

670
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:00,259
looking at porn. Mhmm.

671
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:00,960
And,

672
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:02,820
she said,

673
00:23:03,815 --> 00:23:05,575
fight a baseball bat right now, you'd be

674
00:23:05,575 --> 00:23:06,634
dead. Mhmm.

675
00:23:06,934 --> 00:23:08,454
And she made me call my snake president

676
00:23:08,454 --> 00:23:10,295
the next morning. We're pretty good friends with

677
00:23:10,295 --> 00:23:12,315
him. He was an ex marine colonel.

678
00:23:12,855 --> 00:23:14,775
And my priesthood leader said That is a

679
00:23:14,775 --> 00:23:16,474
fun guy to call. Right? Yeah.

680
00:23:17,130 --> 00:23:17,630
He

681
00:23:18,089 --> 00:23:19,710
said, damn you, Mike Hotaling.

682
00:23:20,410 --> 00:23:22,509
You're gonna ruin a perfectly good family.

683
00:23:22,890 --> 00:23:24,329
I'm too mad to talk to you right

684
00:23:24,329 --> 00:23:26,650
now. Mhmm. Click. So that was the love

685
00:23:26,650 --> 00:23:29,070
I got from my first priesthood call.

686
00:23:30,484 --> 00:23:31,924
And then that was a Saturday. And then

687
00:23:31,924 --> 00:23:33,125
the next day, Sunday, I went and talked

688
00:23:33,125 --> 00:23:35,285
to my bishop. And I So at this

689
00:23:35,285 --> 00:23:37,125
point, what makes this rock bottom? Because your

690
00:23:37,125 --> 00:23:39,705
your wife had caught you before. Right? Yes.

691
00:23:39,765 --> 00:23:42,085
Yeah. Not in the act. But but she

692
00:23:42,085 --> 00:23:43,924
had yes. But she found evidence of it

693
00:23:43,924 --> 00:23:46,700
before, and I had confessed over time to

694
00:23:46,700 --> 00:23:49,099
her before. What made it rock bottom is

695
00:23:49,099 --> 00:23:50,240
I realized that

696
00:23:50,619 --> 00:23:52,700
she said that God woke her up and

697
00:23:52,700 --> 00:23:54,400
said, go check on Mike.

698
00:23:55,579 --> 00:23:58,460
That seemed terribly unfair to me. I mean,

699
00:23:58,460 --> 00:24:00,640
it sounds ridiculous to say it that way.

700
00:24:00,805 --> 00:24:02,644
But if God's on her side, how am

701
00:24:02,644 --> 00:24:03,845
I ever gonna be able to keep doing

702
00:24:03,845 --> 00:24:04,345
this?

703
00:24:04,644 --> 00:24:06,644
You know? Yeah. Because because the whole point

704
00:24:06,644 --> 00:24:08,964
is isolation and secrecy. And, you know, they

705
00:24:08,964 --> 00:24:10,884
say in AA that you're only as sick

706
00:24:10,884 --> 00:24:12,184
as your secrets.

707
00:24:12,644 --> 00:24:15,070
And obviously, I would act out for a

708
00:24:15,070 --> 00:24:16,670
time and confess to her and a bishop,

709
00:24:16,670 --> 00:24:18,029
and act out for a time and confess

710
00:24:18,029 --> 00:24:19,230
to her and a bishop and that kind

711
00:24:19,230 --> 00:24:20,910
of thing. So but what made this different

712
00:24:20,910 --> 00:24:23,230
was I realized in the bottom of my

713
00:24:23,230 --> 00:24:26,289
very soul that I couldn't hide anymore. That

714
00:24:26,524 --> 00:24:28,284
if God's gonna wake her up at 03:00

715
00:24:28,284 --> 00:24:29,644
in the morning, then maybe next time he'll

716
00:24:29,644 --> 00:24:31,085
wake her up at 04:00 in the morning

717
00:24:31,085 --> 00:24:33,005
or 02:00 in the morning. The gig was

718
00:24:33,005 --> 00:24:35,005
up. It was The gig's over, and there's

719
00:24:35,005 --> 00:24:37,484
no there's no hiding anymore. And when you

720
00:24:37,484 --> 00:24:39,005
say rock bottom, was it just,

721
00:24:39,679 --> 00:24:41,200
like, then it was it, like, well, then

722
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,599
how will I numb out from these feelings

723
00:24:43,599 --> 00:24:45,200
or anything? There's a lot of panic about

724
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:46,480
that. Okay. Now what do I do? That

725
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:47,839
was how I coped. Now how do I

726
00:24:47,839 --> 00:24:49,619
cope? What do I do? And

727
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:51,919
and I was also frightened that I'd come

728
00:24:51,919 --> 00:24:52,900
so close to

729
00:24:53,735 --> 00:24:55,255
an affair, you know, and and I was

730
00:24:55,255 --> 00:24:56,375
trying to figure out how does that work.

731
00:24:56,375 --> 00:24:57,654
I don't even know how to how to

732
00:24:57,654 --> 00:24:59,575
start all that. You know? Yeah. But I

733
00:24:59,575 --> 00:25:01,335
guess I had started it. But And at

734
00:25:01,335 --> 00:25:02,455
this time, when you say, you know, how

735
00:25:02,455 --> 00:25:04,134
do I cope? I mean, were you aware

736
00:25:04,134 --> 00:25:05,015
of some of these,

737
00:25:06,109 --> 00:25:09,470
this, trauma and spiritual wounding and

738
00:25:09,789 --> 00:25:11,549
or that you've had or, like Not really.

739
00:25:11,710 --> 00:25:13,650
You didn't know what you were coping from?

740
00:25:13,710 --> 00:25:15,789
No. I just figured that I was evil

741
00:25:15,789 --> 00:25:17,549
and bad, and and I I no, I

742
00:25:17,549 --> 00:25:19,230
didn't. I couldn't identify it. You just knew,

743
00:25:19,230 --> 00:25:21,105
like, I just need this. I don't exactly

744
00:25:21,105 --> 00:25:23,825
know why. Right. But I've tried life not

745
00:25:23,825 --> 00:25:25,664
going to this, and that doesn't work for

746
00:25:25,664 --> 00:25:27,184
some reason. Right. And for a short period

747
00:25:27,184 --> 00:25:28,945
of time, I can stay away from it,

748
00:25:28,945 --> 00:25:30,724
but I have to have it. So

749
00:25:31,184 --> 00:25:32,785
the gigs up, you know that that's not

750
00:25:32,785 --> 00:25:34,144
going to be an option anymore. It's going

751
00:25:34,144 --> 00:25:35,505
to be a lot more difficult. And so

752
00:25:35,505 --> 00:25:36,720
then you're thinking, I don't know why I

753
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:37,759
need it, but I need it now. I

754
00:25:37,759 --> 00:25:38,880
don't know how I'm gonna get it. And

755
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:40,099
how am I gonna get it?

756
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:41,519
Well, when I go and talk to the

757
00:25:41,519 --> 00:25:43,759
bishop, he immediately release releases me. I was

758
00:25:43,759 --> 00:25:45,759
I was the gospel doctrine teacher of our

759
00:25:45,759 --> 00:25:47,039
ward, and I was a good teacher. I

760
00:25:47,039 --> 00:25:49,440
was a great teacher. And and here's the

761
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,684
funny part. I knew the whole time, I

762
00:25:51,684 --> 00:25:53,284
knew the gospel was true, and I knew

763
00:25:53,284 --> 00:25:55,125
that the church was the vehicle for bringing

764
00:25:55,125 --> 00:25:57,944
the gospel to people with ordinances and covenants

765
00:25:58,724 --> 00:25:59,865
and and correct teachings.

766
00:26:00,644 --> 00:26:02,404
But I had come to believe that the

767
00:26:02,404 --> 00:26:04,105
gospel was true for you

768
00:26:04,779 --> 00:26:06,220
and you and you and you and you.

769
00:26:06,220 --> 00:26:07,680
And there's, like, this big umbrella,

770
00:26:08,220 --> 00:26:09,980
I like to say it, where everybody that's

771
00:26:09,980 --> 00:26:12,380
protected by the atonement is sitting under the

772
00:26:12,380 --> 00:26:14,460
umbrella. But I'm way over there and I'm

773
00:26:14,460 --> 00:26:15,740
so far away. I can't even see the

774
00:26:15,740 --> 00:26:16,640
umbrella anymore.

775
00:26:17,144 --> 00:26:18,424
So I hoped that it would work for

776
00:26:18,424 --> 00:26:20,505
my wife. I hoped that it would work

777
00:26:20,505 --> 00:26:22,744
for my kids. I loved them dearly. I

778
00:26:22,744 --> 00:26:24,585
knew it was right. I knew it was

779
00:26:24,585 --> 00:26:25,484
true, but

780
00:26:25,785 --> 00:26:28,744
I couldn't do anything about it. I couldn't

781
00:26:28,744 --> 00:26:30,525
live it. I tried. I'd failed.

782
00:26:31,339 --> 00:26:33,759
I'd spat on the savior too many

783
00:26:34,380 --> 00:26:36,140
times, and I so I couldn't do it.

784
00:26:36,140 --> 00:26:38,859
Yeah. So, I mean, how I mean So

785
00:26:39,019 --> 00:26:40,779
Here we are at rock bottoms. Like, how

786
00:26:40,779 --> 00:26:42,299
long does this last? I mean, when did

787
00:26:42,299 --> 00:26:44,619
hope even begin to sparkle? That day, the

788
00:26:44,619 --> 00:26:46,224
Bishop said, there's a new thing in our

789
00:26:46,224 --> 00:26:48,404
stake. Would you do one thing for me?

790
00:26:48,464 --> 00:26:50,944
And I said, I'll I'll try something for

791
00:26:50,944 --> 00:26:52,944
you, but not for me, but I'm I

792
00:26:52,944 --> 00:26:54,865
can't do it. I don't care anymore. I

793
00:26:54,865 --> 00:26:56,704
mean, I care, but I can't do anything

794
00:26:56,704 --> 00:26:58,625
about it. I don't care. And he said,

795
00:26:58,625 --> 00:27:00,570
well, they've started a 12 step program. It's

796
00:27:00,570 --> 00:27:02,829
based on steps of AA. It's called ARP.

797
00:27:02,890 --> 00:27:04,650
They meet Saturday over in the Newnan Building

798
00:27:04,650 --> 00:27:05,630
at 09:00.

799
00:27:05,930 --> 00:27:08,570
Would you please just attend one meeting? And

800
00:27:08,570 --> 00:27:09,789
what year was this roughly?

801
00:27:10,170 --> 00:27:11,849
Fifteen years ago. 1414

802
00:27:12,250 --> 00:27:14,785
fifteen years ago. So do the math. I

803
00:27:14,785 --> 00:27:16,664
went to a public school. Yeah. Okay. So

804
00:27:16,785 --> 00:27:19,585
yeah. So about 2,000 yeah. Six or seven.

805
00:27:19,585 --> 00:27:22,404
Okay. And brand new ARP in our state.

806
00:27:22,465 --> 00:27:24,565
So I agreed to go. And but again,

807
00:27:24,945 --> 00:27:26,384
I said I have no hope. I have

808
00:27:26,384 --> 00:27:26,884
no

809
00:27:27,529 --> 00:27:28,970
reason to believe it's gonna work, but I'll

810
00:27:28,970 --> 00:27:29,789
do it for you.

811
00:27:30,329 --> 00:27:32,029
So I show up Saturday morning,

812
00:27:32,649 --> 00:27:33,630
ten to nine.

813
00:27:34,009 --> 00:27:36,329
Nobody comes, not even the group leader. Like,

814
00:27:36,329 --> 00:27:37,690
you were at the church building by yourself?

815
00:27:37,690 --> 00:27:39,450
I'm at the church building. I'm sitting in

816
00:27:39,450 --> 00:27:41,130
the park lot. I'm waiting. That's hopeful. That's

817
00:27:41,130 --> 00:27:43,654
great. I'm going, well, dang. Okay. I guess

818
00:27:43,654 --> 00:27:45,654
it's not really a thing. But I'd I'd

819
00:27:45,654 --> 00:27:46,934
agreed with him that I would go to

820
00:27:46,934 --> 00:27:49,255
one. So the next Saturday, I went back,

821
00:27:49,255 --> 00:27:51,255
09:00 in the morning. It was just me

822
00:27:51,255 --> 00:27:53,894
and the group leader. And I don't even

823
00:27:53,894 --> 00:27:55,335
remember what step we were on. I as

824
00:27:55,335 --> 00:27:56,615
I recall, it was eight or nine, you

825
00:27:56,615 --> 00:27:58,599
know, one of the more difficult steps maybe,

826
00:27:58,599 --> 00:28:01,319
but it didn't matter. I felt I'd lived

827
00:28:01,319 --> 00:28:03,799
in darkness so long and without hope for

828
00:28:03,799 --> 00:28:04,539
so long

829
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:06,359
that the feeling, the best way I can

830
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,039
describe it, is though a spider were were

831
00:28:08,039 --> 00:28:09,720
on the ceiling above me, and he was

832
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,299
just dropping a tiny, tiny, tiny web

833
00:28:12,775 --> 00:28:15,255
of hope, and it just came down, and

834
00:28:15,255 --> 00:28:18,134
it touched my leg. Oh. And so this

835
00:28:18,134 --> 00:28:18,634
tiniest

836
00:28:19,174 --> 00:28:22,775
connection to hope, I hadn't felt that in

837
00:28:22,775 --> 00:28:24,615
decades. And you knew it was gonna lift

838
00:28:24,615 --> 00:28:26,214
you, but it was hope still. You know,

839
00:28:26,214 --> 00:28:28,315
it was beginning. It was it was hope,

840
00:28:28,529 --> 00:28:29,830
and it touched me.

841
00:28:30,529 --> 00:28:31,029
And

842
00:28:31,809 --> 00:28:33,410
so my heart was stirred. I knew there

843
00:28:33,410 --> 00:28:35,830
was something there. And so I began

844
00:28:36,609 --> 00:28:39,410
to take seriously ARP, take seriously the 12

845
00:28:39,410 --> 00:28:42,070
steps, and do as that counselor had recommended

846
00:28:42,369 --> 00:28:44,454
so many years ago, only two ways to

847
00:28:44,454 --> 00:28:46,134
get rid of an addiction, either swap it

848
00:28:46,134 --> 00:28:48,294
for another or honestly work a 12 step

849
00:28:48,294 --> 00:28:49,994
program. So I began to work the program.

850
00:28:50,214 --> 00:28:51,815
And it probably took me a total of

851
00:28:51,815 --> 00:28:52,315
maybe,

852
00:28:53,255 --> 00:28:55,914
gosh, two years to actually achieve sobriety because

853
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,200
in that process, I wasn't after sobriety, I

854
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,119
was learning that what I was after was

855
00:29:01,119 --> 00:29:02,259
recovery and healing.

856
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:04,080
And I knew it wouldn't be enough to

857
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:04,400
just,

858
00:29:05,279 --> 00:29:07,440
attend and underline some good things in the

859
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:08,259
ARP book.

860
00:29:08,695 --> 00:29:10,615
But I began to really dig into 12

861
00:29:10,615 --> 00:29:12,295
steps in recovery. I read the AA big

862
00:29:12,295 --> 00:29:12,795
book,

863
00:29:13,174 --> 00:29:14,855
the the essay white book, the you know,

864
00:29:14,855 --> 00:29:15,914
I I read

865
00:29:16,375 --> 00:29:19,335
tales, stories of other people who have been

866
00:29:19,335 --> 00:29:21,414
in addiction and got out. An essay is

867
00:29:21,414 --> 00:29:25,140
sex sexual Sexoholic sounds. Sexoholic sounds. Yeah. Yeah.

868
00:29:25,140 --> 00:29:25,640
Yeah.

869
00:29:25,940 --> 00:29:28,259
And I got pretty regular with my ARP

870
00:29:28,259 --> 00:29:30,599
meetings and began doing the work, and

871
00:29:31,140 --> 00:29:32,840
and I realized there was truth there.

872
00:29:33,299 --> 00:29:35,335
And and I felt things that I hadn't

873
00:29:35,335 --> 00:29:37,015
felt for many, many years. But like I

874
00:29:37,015 --> 00:29:38,855
said, it wasn't instant, and and that was

875
00:29:38,855 --> 00:29:39,355
frustrating.

876
00:29:39,734 --> 00:29:41,894
I mean, in the LDS culture, we I

877
00:29:41,894 --> 00:29:42,394
repented.

878
00:29:43,015 --> 00:29:44,694
I'm done. I wanna move on. Yeah. I

879
00:29:44,694 --> 00:29:46,534
don't wanna be with the other people under

880
00:29:46,534 --> 00:29:48,294
the umbrella. I'm right. That's right. I wanna

881
00:29:48,294 --> 00:29:49,595
go get back in the umbrella.

882
00:29:50,009 --> 00:29:52,250
And and I don't wanna stay here in

883
00:29:52,250 --> 00:29:54,029
in trying to repent

884
00:29:54,490 --> 00:29:55,390
for very long.

885
00:29:55,849 --> 00:29:57,130
And that's what I see in the 12

886
00:29:57,130 --> 00:29:58,250
steps now is a lot of people will

887
00:29:58,250 --> 00:29:59,450
come in and they'll dip their toe and

888
00:29:59,450 --> 00:30:00,650
then they go, okay, that's good. I got

889
00:30:00,650 --> 00:30:02,089
that. I understand that. And then they leave

890
00:30:02,089 --> 00:30:05,284
and that's that's not recovery. It's not necessarily

891
00:30:05,284 --> 00:30:07,284
a class. It's really a lifestyle. Right? It

892
00:30:07,284 --> 00:30:08,884
should never be called a class. It should

893
00:30:08,884 --> 00:30:10,424
be called a lifestyle

894
00:30:10,804 --> 00:30:13,524
and it's not a twelve week program. It's

895
00:30:13,524 --> 00:30:15,444
not something you graduate from. It's a 12

896
00:30:15,444 --> 00:30:17,125
step program. And if you do it right,

897
00:30:17,125 --> 00:30:19,580
it'll probably take you years to really work

898
00:30:19,580 --> 00:30:22,220
the program. Yeah. Yeah. Did you, during this

899
00:30:22,220 --> 00:30:23,980
time, I mean, as you're sort of coming

900
00:30:23,980 --> 00:30:26,160
out and discovering this hope, were you receiving

901
00:30:26,220 --> 00:30:28,460
professional therapy in these I mean, because I

902
00:30:28,460 --> 00:30:30,700
had some counseling from all these social services.

903
00:30:30,700 --> 00:30:32,320
Some of it was very valuable.

904
00:30:33,055 --> 00:30:34,575
Some was less valuable, but part of that

905
00:30:34,575 --> 00:30:36,115
has to do with where I was at.

906
00:30:36,255 --> 00:30:37,695
One thing that I did notice during that

907
00:30:37,695 --> 00:30:39,134
time was all the attention was paid to

908
00:30:39,134 --> 00:30:41,555
me by the counselors and by the bishop.

909
00:30:41,934 --> 00:30:43,855
Not enough attention was paid to my wife,

910
00:30:43,855 --> 00:30:45,615
who really was the innocent victim in all

911
00:30:45,615 --> 00:30:47,820
this. So let's give Mike a blessing. Let's

912
00:30:47,820 --> 00:30:49,420
give Mike an interview. Let's have see how

913
00:30:49,420 --> 00:30:52,000
Mike's doing. And that's one thing I counsel

914
00:30:52,059 --> 00:30:54,380
other leaders now to please pay attention to

915
00:30:54,380 --> 00:30:56,700
the spouses and to the children. They are

916
00:30:56,700 --> 00:30:57,759
truly the innocents.

917
00:30:58,140 --> 00:31:00,914
And in a real way, the victim, excuse

918
00:31:00,914 --> 00:31:02,454
me, the addict is also

919
00:31:02,755 --> 00:31:03,894
an innocent victim

920
00:31:04,434 --> 00:31:06,515
of those wounds, etcetera. But but we don't

921
00:31:06,515 --> 00:31:08,115
pay enough attention, I don't think, to the

922
00:31:08,115 --> 00:31:08,615
spouse.

923
00:31:09,075 --> 00:31:10,515
So what's the next step? What do you

924
00:31:10,515 --> 00:31:13,234
start the start doing this years and years?

925
00:31:13,234 --> 00:31:14,375
Do the twist? Yeah.

926
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:16,599
I eventually got called as a group leader

927
00:31:16,599 --> 00:31:18,539
after I had about a year's sobriety or

928
00:31:18,759 --> 00:31:20,839
so. I used to mark my sobriety in

929
00:31:20,839 --> 00:31:22,279
days and weeks. Did I tell you that

930
00:31:22,279 --> 00:31:24,279
already? Not on the recording. So go for

931
00:31:24,279 --> 00:31:25,799
it. Yeah. You know, a twenty four hour

932
00:31:25,799 --> 00:31:27,765
coin like they do in AA and a

933
00:31:27,845 --> 00:31:29,045
and a one week and a month and

934
00:31:29,045 --> 00:31:30,484
a you know, and I'm buying myself these

935
00:31:30,484 --> 00:31:32,424
coins because we don't really have that tradition

936
00:31:32,484 --> 00:31:34,805
in the ARP world and and a one

937
00:31:34,805 --> 00:31:36,244
year and then a two year coin. And

938
00:31:36,244 --> 00:31:37,605
and they were valuable to me. They were

939
00:31:37,605 --> 00:31:38,105
important.

940
00:31:38,644 --> 00:31:39,144
But

941
00:31:39,445 --> 00:31:41,859
after several years, I quit carrying those coins

942
00:31:41,859 --> 00:31:43,460
and all I carry now is a one

943
00:31:43,460 --> 00:31:44,679
day at a time coin.

944
00:31:44,980 --> 00:31:46,419
Because while I was trying to mark my

945
00:31:46,419 --> 00:31:46,919
progress,

946
00:31:47,299 --> 00:31:49,539
I realized that kind of like stop doing

947
00:31:49,539 --> 00:31:51,059
it for thirty days and we'll ordain you

948
00:31:51,059 --> 00:31:53,059
a deacon. Stop doing it for ninety days

949
00:31:53,059 --> 00:31:54,519
and we'll ordain you an elder.

950
00:31:54,884 --> 00:31:58,085
I realized that marking time was less helpful

951
00:31:58,085 --> 00:32:00,005
than I wanted it to be. And that

952
00:32:00,005 --> 00:32:01,845
I was living in the future, when I

953
00:32:01,845 --> 00:32:02,964
get a year I can do this, when

954
00:32:02,964 --> 00:32:04,585
I get ten years I can do this.

955
00:32:04,644 --> 00:32:06,990
And in reality what I needed was to

956
00:32:06,990 --> 00:32:08,750
stay sober today. And I tell you in

957
00:32:08,750 --> 00:32:10,430
those early days, you know, we talk about

958
00:32:10,430 --> 00:32:11,809
seeking recovery and healing,

959
00:32:12,190 --> 00:32:14,369
but white knuckling and some of those

960
00:32:14,829 --> 00:32:16,130
tools are still important.

961
00:32:16,430 --> 00:32:18,430
There were days when I would say, you

962
00:32:18,430 --> 00:32:20,384
know what? Tomorrow I'm gonna look for the

963
00:32:20,384 --> 00:32:22,384
best and the greatest porn I've ever seen.

964
00:32:22,384 --> 00:32:24,305
Tomorrow, I will do that. I will act

965
00:32:24,305 --> 00:32:26,065
out tomorrow. I'll start early in the morning

966
00:32:26,065 --> 00:32:27,505
and I'll go till late at night and

967
00:32:27,505 --> 00:32:29,525
I won't stop till I'm satisfied.

968
00:32:30,065 --> 00:32:32,224
But for today, for right now, just gonna

969
00:32:32,224 --> 00:32:34,440
hang on right now. And so it's not

970
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,679
all, you know, puppies and and rainbows. I'm

971
00:32:36,679 --> 00:32:38,919
in recovery, and I'm learning new tools, and

972
00:32:38,919 --> 00:32:40,299
I'm never tempted again.

973
00:32:40,679 --> 00:32:42,299
That's not how it was for me.

974
00:32:42,599 --> 00:32:44,599
So you have to pick up every tool

975
00:32:44,599 --> 00:32:46,945
that you encounter along the way. If you

976
00:32:46,945 --> 00:32:48,545
listen to a podcast and some part of

977
00:32:48,545 --> 00:32:50,225
it applies, grab that, put that tool in

978
00:32:50,225 --> 00:32:51,924
your, you know, that arrow in your quiver.

979
00:32:52,305 --> 00:32:54,065
That wasn't helpful to me. That part, well,

980
00:32:54,065 --> 00:32:56,225
good. Great. Don't pick that up. But actually,

981
00:32:56,225 --> 00:32:57,585
you probably should pick it up because you

982
00:32:57,585 --> 00:32:59,365
may end up using it later. Yeah.

983
00:32:59,700 --> 00:33:01,779
So every single tool along the way was

984
00:33:01,779 --> 00:33:04,259
helpful, including sometimes you just have to white

985
00:33:04,259 --> 00:33:06,119
knuckle through it. That is not a solution,

986
00:33:06,419 --> 00:33:07,700
but it's a tool. Yeah. I'm glad you

987
00:33:07,700 --> 00:33:09,619
mentioned that because sometimes we sort of dismiss

988
00:33:09,619 --> 00:33:11,220
the white knuckling. It is definitely not a

989
00:33:11,220 --> 00:33:12,519
long term plan. Correct.

990
00:33:12,899 --> 00:33:15,274
It's it's not gonna work. But there are

991
00:33:15,274 --> 00:33:16,974
those moments where you think, you know, okay.

992
00:33:17,034 --> 00:33:18,714
I'll do that tomorrow, but today, I'm not

993
00:33:18,714 --> 00:33:20,875
gonna do that. Exactly. And I literally said

994
00:33:20,875 --> 00:33:22,714
that to myself tomorrow. Tool, right, not a

995
00:33:22,714 --> 00:33:25,194
strategy. That's right. Yeah. That's right. There are

996
00:33:25,194 --> 00:33:27,194
some other strategies I learned along the way.

997
00:33:27,515 --> 00:33:28,494
One fellow teaches

998
00:33:28,900 --> 00:33:30,679
face it, replace it, connect,

999
00:33:31,140 --> 00:33:32,359
where you instead

1000
00:33:32,819 --> 00:33:36,179
of cringing when you see a a billboard

1001
00:33:36,179 --> 00:33:38,740
that's tempting or something or a magazine article

1002
00:33:38,740 --> 00:33:41,775
that's a picture that's tempting, instead of turning

1003
00:33:41,775 --> 00:33:42,994
away and cringing,

1004
00:33:43,295 --> 00:33:44,515
just face it. Recognize,

1005
00:33:45,215 --> 00:33:47,615
oh, man. She's beautiful. I'm attracted to that.

1006
00:33:47,615 --> 00:33:49,615
And so you face it, and you're not

1007
00:33:49,615 --> 00:33:51,134
afraid of it. It has it it loses

1008
00:33:51,134 --> 00:33:52,975
some of its power over you. And then

1009
00:33:52,975 --> 00:33:54,434
you replace it with truth.

1010
00:33:54,815 --> 00:33:57,039
You know what? She's not mine. It's somebody's

1011
00:33:57,039 --> 00:33:58,019
daughter. It's somebody's

1012
00:33:58,559 --> 00:34:01,619
wife. It's somebody's sister. It's God's daughter.

1013
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:03,440
So I face it instead of running from

1014
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,359
it. I replace it with truth, and then

1015
00:34:05,359 --> 00:34:06,720
I connect, pick up the phone and call

1016
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,239
somebody. And when I have to talk about

1017
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,239
my temptation, hey, Kurt. It's killing me. I'm

1018
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,275
dying. I just say, hey, Kurt. How was

1019
00:34:12,275 --> 00:34:15,155
your fishing expedition this morning? Just connect with

1020
00:34:15,155 --> 00:34:16,994
somebody. Yeah. So that was a tool that

1021
00:34:16,994 --> 00:34:18,755
I learned that helped me too. Yeah. You

1022
00:34:18,755 --> 00:34:21,315
know, that connection part. Yeah. We always wanna

1023
00:34:21,315 --> 00:34:22,755
just take those first two and say, like,

1024
00:34:22,755 --> 00:34:24,269
okay. I'll do those, but because I can

1025
00:34:24,269 --> 00:34:25,489
do those on my own

1026
00:34:25,789 --> 00:34:27,949
and, you know, but to reach out, like,

1027
00:34:27,949 --> 00:34:29,710
that's hard. But man, when you do it,

1028
00:34:29,710 --> 00:34:32,429
it's just it's amazing how effective it is.

1029
00:34:32,429 --> 00:34:34,110
Right? It matters. And you don't have to

1030
00:34:34,110 --> 00:34:37,090
reach out and connect necessarily over the temptation.

1031
00:34:37,965 --> 00:34:39,724
I'm dying here. I just saw, you know,

1032
00:34:39,724 --> 00:34:41,644
this and that, and I can't take it.

1033
00:34:41,644 --> 00:34:43,085
I can see that. And you might. Right?

1034
00:34:43,085 --> 00:34:44,845
And I might. I might. But what I

1035
00:34:44,845 --> 00:34:46,845
really need to connect is just with another

1036
00:34:46,845 --> 00:34:48,364
person. It takes me out of the place

1037
00:34:48,364 --> 00:34:49,820
and it, you know. Right. And then, of

1038
00:34:49,820 --> 00:34:51,820
course, there were tools like avoiding places where

1039
00:34:51,820 --> 00:34:52,719
I'd been to buy

1040
00:34:53,099 --> 00:34:54,860
pornography or stolen it from or whatever I'd

1041
00:34:54,860 --> 00:34:56,059
done. You know? I mean, you just you

1042
00:34:56,059 --> 00:34:58,059
just can't go there. And so I I

1043
00:34:58,059 --> 00:34:59,980
had to change lots of things about me.

1044
00:34:59,980 --> 00:35:01,900
Yeah. Anything else as far as just the

1045
00:35:01,900 --> 00:35:03,900
recovery process that brings you up to the

1046
00:35:03,900 --> 00:35:06,425
point where maybe some leadership roles were starting

1047
00:35:06,425 --> 00:35:08,265
to come into your life? No. That was

1048
00:35:08,265 --> 00:35:10,025
kind of it. So now I've been serving

1049
00:35:10,025 --> 00:35:12,025
in ARP attended ARP for a long time,

1050
00:35:12,025 --> 00:35:14,025
served in ARP for a couple of years

1051
00:35:14,025 --> 00:35:17,085
as a group leader and slash facilitator. Mhmm.

1052
00:35:17,224 --> 00:35:17,625
And,

1053
00:35:18,590 --> 00:35:19,329
and then

1054
00:35:19,630 --> 00:35:21,389
was really surprised after a couple of years

1055
00:35:21,389 --> 00:35:23,150
of sobriety to get a a phone call

1056
00:35:23,150 --> 00:35:24,590
from the stake president, and he called me

1057
00:35:24,590 --> 00:35:26,829
to be a counselor to my bishop in

1058
00:35:26,829 --> 00:35:28,829
my home ward. K. And I would assume

1059
00:35:28,829 --> 00:35:31,230
being a a facilitator in the ARFP program,

1060
00:35:31,230 --> 00:35:33,135
he knew that you had some history there.

1061
00:35:33,135 --> 00:35:35,295
He was the stake president that well, he

1062
00:35:35,295 --> 00:35:37,775
he replaced the ring colonel that damned me

1063
00:35:37,775 --> 00:35:39,775
for ruining a perfectly good family, and I

1064
00:35:39,775 --> 00:35:41,454
love him for that. I do. I do.

1065
00:35:41,454 --> 00:35:44,035
But he replaced that stake president, and he,

1066
00:35:44,500 --> 00:35:45,800
yeah, he understood everything.

1067
00:35:46,180 --> 00:35:48,440
And in fact, he's the one that had

1068
00:35:48,579 --> 00:35:51,000
started the Passage Pornography

1069
00:35:51,380 --> 00:35:51,880
Assistance

1070
00:35:52,180 --> 00:35:54,739
excuse me, Pornography Addiction Support Group in our

1071
00:35:54,739 --> 00:35:56,500
stake Oh, okay. And put me as the

1072
00:35:56,500 --> 00:35:58,355
first group leader over that instead of just

1073
00:35:58,355 --> 00:36:00,434
a regular ARP. So so I've been serving

1074
00:36:00,434 --> 00:36:02,295
under him for years. He was fully aware

1075
00:36:02,594 --> 00:36:04,594
of my past and that I had, at

1076
00:36:04,594 --> 00:36:06,114
this point probably three or four years. So

1077
00:36:06,114 --> 00:36:07,954
give us a brief explanation how that worked

1078
00:36:07,954 --> 00:36:09,875
and how it differed from a traditional ARP

1079
00:36:09,875 --> 00:36:11,974
program. Traditional ARP group,

1080
00:36:12,369 --> 00:36:15,349
Addiction Recovery Program group will handle all addictions,

1081
00:36:15,409 --> 00:36:17,010
any and all. Doesn't doesn't matter what it

1082
00:36:17,010 --> 00:36:19,170
is. And it's open to males and females

1083
00:36:19,170 --> 00:36:19,670
too.

1084
00:36:20,210 --> 00:36:21,510
A Passage, PASG

1085
00:36:21,809 --> 00:36:25,255
pornography addiction support group, is organized strictly for,

1086
00:36:25,255 --> 00:36:27,414
in our case, men who suffer from pornography

1087
00:36:27,414 --> 00:36:28,315
addiction. Okay.

1088
00:36:28,614 --> 00:36:30,614
The guidelines are, as I understand them, where

1089
00:36:30,614 --> 00:36:32,534
there's a passage group, then there's supposed to

1090
00:36:32,534 --> 00:36:35,335
be a wives' support group too. And is

1091
00:36:35,335 --> 00:36:37,175
this coming from the church's program or is

1092
00:36:37,175 --> 00:36:38,614
this just Yes. Yes. It is. Yes. It

1093
00:36:38,614 --> 00:36:41,139
is. And where there's higher, you know, higher

1094
00:36:41,139 --> 00:36:43,460
density of Mormons, then there are some women's

1095
00:36:43,460 --> 00:36:45,380
passage groups too. But in our stake, we

1096
00:36:45,380 --> 00:36:47,480
had a men's passage group, men only,

1097
00:36:48,500 --> 00:36:50,340
and all porn or sex addicts, and then

1098
00:36:50,340 --> 00:36:52,820
a women a spouse's support group, which my

1099
00:36:52,820 --> 00:36:54,519
wife continues to lead

1100
00:36:54,994 --> 00:36:56,755
the women's support group to this day. Oh,

1101
00:36:56,755 --> 00:36:57,735
cool. And then

1102
00:36:58,035 --> 00:37:00,454
in conjunction, there's also this the the general

1103
00:37:00,515 --> 00:37:03,155
ARP meetings that's happening outside of those. That's

1104
00:37:03,155 --> 00:37:05,074
right. In our state, we have two general

1105
00:37:05,074 --> 00:37:07,599
ARP meetings, one passage for men and one

1106
00:37:07,599 --> 00:37:09,440
spouse support group. And so if a leader

1107
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,119
wants to know more about how these passage

1108
00:37:11,119 --> 00:37:13,539
groups work, they can go to the literature

1109
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,579
in ARP or Yes. I jokingly tell everybody

1110
00:37:16,639 --> 00:37:18,500
to go online and search for pornography.

1111
00:37:19,039 --> 00:37:20,880
And and what I mean by that is

1112
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,434
go to churchofjeschrist.org

1113
00:37:23,575 --> 00:37:24,875
and search for pornography.

1114
00:37:25,494 --> 00:37:27,335
And one of the links there will be

1115
00:37:27,335 --> 00:37:29,815
in the Provident Living and and Okay. As

1116
00:37:29,815 --> 00:37:31,575
it's organized, and I can find the groups.

1117
00:37:31,575 --> 00:37:32,555
Awesome. Awesome.

1118
00:37:32,934 --> 00:37:35,319
So you're called into a bishopric? Called into

1119
00:37:35,319 --> 00:37:37,159
a bishopric. And this is what, early two

1120
00:37:37,159 --> 00:37:38,119
thousand ten, sir?

1121
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:40,219
Yeah. Yeah. About that.

1122
00:37:40,519 --> 00:37:40,839
And,

1123
00:37:41,639 --> 00:37:43,639
it was kinda funny because the high councilor

1124
00:37:43,639 --> 00:37:45,480
that called me was new, and and I

1125
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,639
said, whom am I gonna be serving with?

1126
00:37:47,639 --> 00:37:48,760
He says, I don't know if I can

1127
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:50,234
tell you that or not because we were

1128
00:37:50,234 --> 00:37:51,914
getting a new bishop. Oh, gotcha. So for

1129
00:37:51,914 --> 00:37:53,275
three weeks, I had no idea. I said

1130
00:37:53,275 --> 00:37:54,394
yes, but I had no idea who the

1131
00:37:54,394 --> 00:37:55,534
new bishop would be.

1132
00:37:57,674 --> 00:37:59,994
But a great man, who also was already

1133
00:37:59,994 --> 00:38:00,974
aware of my story.

1134
00:38:01,275 --> 00:38:03,674
By this time, Andrea and I were starting

1135
00:38:03,674 --> 00:38:04,734
to talk

1136
00:38:05,059 --> 00:38:06,820
and be a little more public. We've been

1137
00:38:06,820 --> 00:38:08,980
in ARP, passage, and the spouse group. Like,

1138
00:38:08,980 --> 00:38:10,659
were you speaking in church? We were. We

1139
00:38:10,659 --> 00:38:13,059
were starting to Sunday school or Starting to

1140
00:38:13,059 --> 00:38:15,300
starting to be asked to speak in like

1141
00:38:15,300 --> 00:38:17,159
what was then the third hour meetings,

1142
00:38:17,780 --> 00:38:20,280
fifth Sunday meetings, gave a couple of firesides.

1143
00:38:21,035 --> 00:38:22,795
I did some youth only things all at

1144
00:38:22,795 --> 00:38:25,035
the invitation of the bishops or stake president.

1145
00:38:25,035 --> 00:38:26,875
And so we were beginning to be pretty

1146
00:38:26,875 --> 00:38:28,335
open about our story.

1147
00:38:28,795 --> 00:38:29,295
Initially,

1148
00:38:29,675 --> 00:38:31,275
they would ask me to come and speak

1149
00:38:31,275 --> 00:38:33,434
and tell my story. And then a smart

1150
00:38:33,434 --> 00:38:35,989
bishop, like we were talking, said, hey. Andrea

1151
00:38:35,989 --> 00:38:37,349
has a story too, and I'd like our

1152
00:38:37,349 --> 00:38:39,110
women to hear it. You think she'd be

1153
00:38:39,110 --> 00:38:40,650
willing? Oh, I know she would.

1154
00:38:41,030 --> 00:38:42,710
And so so we began to tell our

1155
00:38:42,710 --> 00:38:44,230
story. So this was this was this was

1156
00:38:44,230 --> 00:38:45,289
getting pretty public.

1157
00:38:45,590 --> 00:38:46,090
And

1158
00:38:46,464 --> 00:38:48,304
after serving a couple of years in, the

1159
00:38:48,304 --> 00:38:48,804
Bishopric,

1160
00:38:49,344 --> 00:38:51,105
then we were called for two years to

1161
00:38:51,105 --> 00:38:52,164
a Spanish branch

1162
00:38:52,545 --> 00:38:54,085
to serve in a Spanish branch.

1163
00:38:54,385 --> 00:38:56,224
Then I was called In the Bishopric or

1164
00:38:56,224 --> 00:38:58,085
just No. I was a young man's president

1165
00:38:58,144 --> 00:38:59,364
in the Spanish branch,

1166
00:38:59,664 --> 00:39:01,364
and, Andrew served in primary.

1167
00:39:01,869 --> 00:39:02,369
And

1168
00:39:03,309 --> 00:39:04,670
from there then, I was called to the

1169
00:39:04,670 --> 00:39:05,409
high council.

1170
00:39:06,030 --> 00:39:08,429
And, one of my duties in the high

1171
00:39:08,429 --> 00:39:11,089
council was to oversee the ARP program, which

1172
00:39:11,389 --> 00:39:14,109
good. It's my favorite thing. Yeah. ARP meetings

1173
00:39:14,109 --> 00:39:15,789
are the most honest places that I've ever

1174
00:39:15,789 --> 00:39:18,014
been anywhere in the church, you know, or

1175
00:39:18,074 --> 00:39:20,474
out. So high counselor, several years over the

1176
00:39:20,474 --> 00:39:22,335
ARP program. And then

1177
00:39:22,635 --> 00:39:24,394
about a year ago, get a call again

1178
00:39:24,394 --> 00:39:26,394
from the shake president asking me and Andrea

1179
00:39:26,394 --> 00:39:27,375
to come in, and

1180
00:39:27,675 --> 00:39:29,355
and he calls me to be the new

1181
00:39:29,355 --> 00:39:31,534
bishop of the Young Single Adult Ward.

1182
00:39:32,159 --> 00:39:34,000
And so one of the first things we

1183
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,239
did, and I love these kids, but one

1184
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:37,760
of the first things we did was organize

1185
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:38,819
this is in COVID.

1186
00:39:39,119 --> 00:39:41,839
It's in June of COVID. Uh-huh. When you

1187
00:39:41,839 --> 00:39:44,480
were called? Of 20 COVID. Yeah. Yeah. So,

1188
00:39:44,799 --> 00:39:46,335
yeah. So we called last June

1189
00:39:46,894 --> 00:39:47,695
2020.

1190
00:39:47,695 --> 00:39:49,295
And let let me ask, like, during that

1191
00:39:49,295 --> 00:39:50,034
call and

1192
00:39:50,335 --> 00:39:52,815
extension of it, was there any talk about,

1193
00:39:52,815 --> 00:39:54,655
you know, to encourage you to be open

1194
00:39:54,655 --> 00:39:56,994
about your past or not? Or

1195
00:39:57,295 --> 00:39:59,454
Not specific direction to do that. But this

1196
00:39:59,454 --> 00:40:01,440
stake president, which is now, you know, two

1197
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:02,659
away from the marine,

1198
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:05,440
this stake president also knew because I was

1199
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,280
on high council, so he's my stake president

1200
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:09,059
there. And he had facilitated

1201
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,280
training for me to come and talk to

1202
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:12,480
the bishop for more. I have to come

1203
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:13,539
and talk to the bishops

1204
00:40:13,994 --> 00:40:16,094
and encourage me to go to the wards.

1205
00:40:16,154 --> 00:40:18,634
So nothing explicit about the whole reason I'm

1206
00:40:18,634 --> 00:40:19,755
calling you is because I want you to

1207
00:40:19,755 --> 00:40:21,194
share your story with the kids in the

1208
00:40:21,194 --> 00:40:23,275
YSA ward, but he knew that that would

1209
00:40:23,275 --> 00:40:23,775
happen.

1210
00:40:24,234 --> 00:40:27,034
And he's super, super supportive, very loving, and

1211
00:40:27,034 --> 00:40:28,980
he he gets it. He gets addiction. He

1212
00:40:28,980 --> 00:40:29,800
gets AOP,

1213
00:40:30,099 --> 00:40:30,599
and

1214
00:40:30,980 --> 00:40:32,659
all three of them did, really. Yeah. So

1215
00:40:32,659 --> 00:40:34,500
starting that, I mean, how do you begin

1216
00:40:34,500 --> 00:40:36,659
to create a dialogue around that? Or, I

1217
00:40:36,659 --> 00:40:38,900
mean, is it Fifth Sunday type of Well

1218
00:40:39,139 --> 00:40:41,434
a sin or We just a few days

1219
00:40:41,434 --> 00:40:43,195
after I was called, then we set a

1220
00:40:43,195 --> 00:40:43,695
fireside.

1221
00:40:44,235 --> 00:40:46,074
I wanted to still catch these summer kids

1222
00:40:46,074 --> 00:40:47,775
before they went off to school. Mhmm.

1223
00:40:48,074 --> 00:40:50,094
And so the format was,

1224
00:40:50,635 --> 00:40:51,135
me

1225
00:40:51,755 --> 00:40:53,215
telling the kids my story.

1226
00:40:53,900 --> 00:40:55,820
And I put up on the screen a

1227
00:40:55,820 --> 00:40:58,140
a picture of a, you know, a crack

1228
00:40:58,140 --> 00:40:58,640
addict,

1229
00:40:59,340 --> 00:40:59,840
unrecognizable

1230
00:41:00,460 --> 00:41:02,960
with scars and missing teeth, and

1231
00:41:03,660 --> 00:41:05,820
and I said, that's what you think of

1232
00:41:05,820 --> 00:41:07,760
when you think of crack addict.

1233
00:41:08,264 --> 00:41:10,264
But and then I put this picture of

1234
00:41:10,264 --> 00:41:11,784
me 10 years old in a Cub Scout

1235
00:41:11,784 --> 00:41:12,284
uniform.

1236
00:41:12,904 --> 00:41:14,505
I said, I want you to know that

1237
00:41:14,505 --> 00:41:15,005
this

1238
00:41:15,385 --> 00:41:17,005
is what an addict looks like.

1239
00:41:17,385 --> 00:41:17,885
And

1240
00:41:18,344 --> 00:41:19,565
so I told my story.

1241
00:41:19,864 --> 00:41:21,069
Almost Just like just like you've told them.

1242
00:41:21,069 --> 00:41:23,150
Almost almost word for word like I've told

1243
00:41:23,150 --> 00:41:24,750
it to you. Mhmm. This is where I

1244
00:41:24,909 --> 00:41:26,449
you know, like they say in AA.

1245
00:41:26,750 --> 00:41:28,829
What was it like? What happened? What's it

1246
00:41:28,829 --> 00:41:29,489
like now?

1247
00:41:29,869 --> 00:41:31,469
And over the years, I'd say I've attended

1248
00:41:31,469 --> 00:41:34,929
many AA and NA meetings. Also, I heartily

1249
00:41:34,989 --> 00:41:36,894
endorse them. They are wonderful.

1250
00:41:37,434 --> 00:41:40,474
And AA, Alcohol's Anonymous. And Narcotics Anonymous. And

1251
00:41:40,474 --> 00:41:42,255
so you tend them as sort of finding

1252
00:41:42,474 --> 00:41:44,554
strength. Usually have a friend there. Yeah. Usually

1253
00:41:44,554 --> 00:41:46,394
have a friend going there. I'm not like

1254
00:41:46,394 --> 00:41:48,635
a regular attender and drugs and alcohol, thank

1255
00:41:48,635 --> 00:41:50,679
heavens, have not been my issue. Yeah. But

1256
00:41:50,679 --> 00:41:52,280
they are for many people and for for

1257
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,519
several friends, and so I've attended with them.

1258
00:41:54,519 --> 00:41:56,280
Yeah. That that's why I'm talking about the

1259
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,000
consequences. Right? The addiction's the same. The core

1260
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,719
problem is the same, and the resolution, the

1261
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:02,940
healing is the same.

1262
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:03,739
But

1263
00:42:04,199 --> 00:42:05,579
had I chosen a different

1264
00:42:06,195 --> 00:42:06,695
addiction,

1265
00:42:07,315 --> 00:42:09,235
I could be dead now. Yeah. You know?

1266
00:42:09,235 --> 00:42:11,235
Yeah. The the path I don't know what

1267
00:42:11,235 --> 00:42:13,414
would have happened. So you do this, Fireside,

1268
00:42:13,635 --> 00:42:15,795
and, what's the what's the response to it?

1269
00:42:15,795 --> 00:42:18,434
Or It was they loved it. They loved

1270
00:42:18,434 --> 00:42:18,934
getting

1271
00:42:19,820 --> 00:42:21,500
to know their bishop better. They loved to

1272
00:42:21,500 --> 00:42:23,280
get having a bishop they could trust.

1273
00:42:23,659 --> 00:42:25,039
And what do you mean by that trust?

1274
00:42:25,340 --> 00:42:27,739
Well, when I listen to general conference, every

1275
00:42:27,739 --> 00:42:29,099
once in a while, somebody will come and

1276
00:42:29,099 --> 00:42:31,545
talk about how he never heard his father

1277
00:42:31,545 --> 00:42:33,144
speak an ill word to his their mother

1278
00:42:33,144 --> 00:42:34,984
or or they never was a raised voice

1279
00:42:34,984 --> 00:42:36,344
in their house. And I'm going, I don't

1280
00:42:36,344 --> 00:42:38,184
even know what you're talking about. Yeah. You

1281
00:42:38,184 --> 00:42:40,364
just don't relate to You're untouchable. You're unrelatable

1282
00:42:40,425 --> 00:42:42,264
to me. And my whole point of telling

1283
00:42:42,264 --> 00:42:44,105
the kids my story, and they they say

1284
00:42:44,105 --> 00:42:45,730
it's okay to call my kids because some

1285
00:42:45,730 --> 00:42:47,750
of them could be my grandkids age wise.

1286
00:42:48,369 --> 00:42:50,450
So no disrespect to my young single adults,

1287
00:42:50,450 --> 00:42:51,269
but my kids.

1288
00:42:52,289 --> 00:42:53,730
So by telling them my story, it wasn't

1289
00:42:53,730 --> 00:42:55,250
to call attention to myself or say, you

1290
00:42:55,250 --> 00:42:56,610
know, hey. I was so bad, and now

1291
00:42:56,610 --> 00:42:58,050
I'm so good. It has nothing to do

1292
00:42:58,050 --> 00:43:00,005
with that. It has to do with, I'm

1293
00:43:00,005 --> 00:43:01,765
not afraid of you. I'm not afraid of

1294
00:43:01,765 --> 00:43:03,125
where you've been. I'm not afraid of what

1295
00:43:03,125 --> 00:43:04,505
you've done. I love you.

1296
00:43:04,885 --> 00:43:06,265
More important than that,

1297
00:43:06,644 --> 00:43:09,285
god loves you. And then I've I've done

1298
00:43:09,445 --> 00:43:11,469
worked really hard to teach him what I

1299
00:43:11,469 --> 00:43:12,989
I would call sort of this boot camp

1300
00:43:12,989 --> 00:43:15,309
message about how God's love is you know,

1301
00:43:15,309 --> 00:43:17,469
we create false gods, a God who judges

1302
00:43:17,469 --> 00:43:19,949
me and checklists me and punishes me and

1303
00:43:19,949 --> 00:43:21,630
is just waiting for me to do something

1304
00:43:21,630 --> 00:43:23,890
wrong. And and it's by grace we're saved

1305
00:43:24,030 --> 00:43:25,570
after all we can do.

1306
00:43:26,155 --> 00:43:28,954
I believe Stephen Robinson's explanation of what that

1307
00:43:28,954 --> 00:43:30,735
means after all we can do.

1308
00:43:31,115 --> 00:43:31,615
So

1309
00:43:32,315 --> 00:43:35,295
the atonement, God's love is not a

1310
00:43:35,595 --> 00:43:37,615
reward for doing something good.

1311
00:43:37,994 --> 00:43:40,219
It's not the, you know, the cherry on

1312
00:43:40,219 --> 00:43:42,699
top of the sundae as Robinson says. It's

1313
00:43:42,699 --> 00:43:44,940
everything. It's everything. He's not waiting for me

1314
00:43:44,940 --> 00:43:47,579
to meet him halfway. It's he's not waiting

1315
00:43:47,579 --> 00:43:49,579
for me to do my part. His love

1316
00:43:49,579 --> 00:43:50,320
is there.

1317
00:43:50,859 --> 00:43:52,859
And what changes isn't his love for me

1318
00:43:52,859 --> 00:43:55,434
as we know, but my ability to respond

1319
00:43:55,815 --> 00:43:58,054
to his love, my ability to accept his

1320
00:43:58,054 --> 00:43:59,494
love. What advice would you give to a

1321
00:43:59,494 --> 00:44:01,414
new bishop who maybe doesn't have that history,

1322
00:44:01,414 --> 00:44:03,255
but he wants to gain the same level

1323
00:44:03,255 --> 00:44:05,175
of trust that, maybe you've been able to

1324
00:44:05,175 --> 00:44:07,034
gain? How how would you coach them through

1325
00:44:07,500 --> 00:44:09,500
creating that same dynamic? I would hope that

1326
00:44:09,500 --> 00:44:11,519
their, Ward or Stake have,

1327
00:44:11,900 --> 00:44:14,460
has an ARP group. I would invite them

1328
00:44:14,460 --> 00:44:16,380
to attend. I would invite you know, when

1329
00:44:16,380 --> 00:44:17,820
you go to an ARP group and you

1330
00:44:17,820 --> 00:44:19,855
go, oh, there's six people here, you're going,

1331
00:44:19,855 --> 00:44:21,135
oh, this is good. We've got the only

1332
00:44:21,135 --> 00:44:22,974
six people in the entire stake that have

1333
00:44:22,974 --> 00:44:25,775
a pornography problem altogether. I'm glad everybody else

1334
00:44:25,775 --> 00:44:27,474
is safe, you know? Right.

1335
00:44:27,775 --> 00:44:30,335
So that's not true. But as a bishop,

1336
00:44:30,335 --> 00:44:32,914
they will have access to people with addictions.

1337
00:44:33,570 --> 00:44:36,130
Take them to an ARP meeting. Attend an

1338
00:44:36,130 --> 00:44:37,969
AA meeting with them. And when you go

1339
00:44:37,969 --> 00:44:40,289
lose the tie and and just be Curt,

1340
00:44:40,289 --> 00:44:42,930
don't be Bishop, Francom. Yeah. Just just go

1341
00:44:42,930 --> 00:44:45,329
and and try to understand. Like I did

1342
00:44:45,329 --> 00:44:47,030
early in my recovery, I read

1343
00:44:47,534 --> 00:44:48,275
20 books

1344
00:44:49,214 --> 00:44:51,614
about or by people who were addicted or

1345
00:44:51,614 --> 00:44:52,594
about addictions.

1346
00:44:53,295 --> 00:44:55,295
And you'll begin to understand and see the

1347
00:44:55,295 --> 00:44:56,974
patterns. You don't have to live it to

1348
00:44:56,974 --> 00:44:58,815
understand it, I don't think. But you do

1349
00:44:58,815 --> 00:45:00,414
have to try. You do have to want

1350
00:45:00,414 --> 00:45:02,940
to understand. Yeah. I think just, like, taking

1351
00:45:02,940 --> 00:45:04,780
the steps of at least trying to engage

1352
00:45:04,780 --> 00:45:06,380
in that dialogue, whether it's,

1353
00:45:07,099 --> 00:45:08,460
even if you mess up, it's like, you

1354
00:45:08,460 --> 00:45:10,059
know what? Alright. That didn't go well. I'm

1355
00:45:10,059 --> 00:45:12,139
gonna try again, and we'll regroup here and

1356
00:45:12,219 --> 00:45:14,295
Right. And try again and invite maybe a

1357
00:45:14,295 --> 00:45:15,894
speaker to come or Have you ever had

1358
00:45:15,894 --> 00:45:17,734
a friend with a parent or a spouse

1359
00:45:17,734 --> 00:45:19,815
or something pass away? Yeah. And you say

1360
00:45:19,815 --> 00:45:22,135
something stupid? Oh, I'm I'm you know, and

1361
00:45:22,135 --> 00:45:23,574
then you go, I didn't say that right.

1362
00:45:23,574 --> 00:45:25,414
Well, I'll never say anything ever again to

1363
00:45:25,414 --> 00:45:27,734
somebody who has a loved one pass away.

1364
00:45:27,734 --> 00:45:28,775
No. That's not the way you do it.

1365
00:45:28,775 --> 00:45:30,900
You just keep trying, and you keep showing

1366
00:45:30,900 --> 00:45:32,659
them that you're present, that you're there, that

1367
00:45:32,659 --> 00:45:33,159
you

1368
00:45:33,460 --> 00:45:35,460
care, and that whatever it is, we've worked

1369
00:45:35,460 --> 00:45:37,480
through this. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome.

1370
00:45:39,300 --> 00:45:41,460
And then just the I mean, the response,

1371
00:45:41,460 --> 00:45:43,565
did you feel like your schedule filled up

1372
00:45:43,565 --> 00:45:46,625
as as a bishop? Or some. Yeah. Some.

1373
00:45:47,085 --> 00:45:48,924
There's there's still some people out there that

1374
00:45:48,924 --> 00:45:50,924
think that I'm not talking to them or

1375
00:45:50,924 --> 00:45:53,085
about them or or that God's help isn't

1376
00:45:53,085 --> 00:45:54,304
available for them.

1377
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:56,659
Still a lot of fear around

1378
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:58,420
opening up and being honest.

1379
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:02,320
But, yes. Yes. I've had a great and

1380
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:04,340
and I've had again, it's not about me,

1381
00:46:04,639 --> 00:46:06,039
but I've had a couple of people say,

1382
00:46:06,039 --> 00:46:08,074
I sure am glad you're my bishop. I

1383
00:46:08,074 --> 00:46:09,514
sure am glad you get this. I'm glad

1384
00:46:09,514 --> 00:46:12,014
you've walked this path and recognized some of

1385
00:46:12,315 --> 00:46:13,914
the some of the Yeah. Stones along the

1386
00:46:13,914 --> 00:46:15,114
way. I'm glad you say that. You know,

1387
00:46:15,114 --> 00:46:16,875
it's not about me because it it'd probably

1388
00:46:16,875 --> 00:46:18,394
be really easy to make it about you

1389
00:46:18,394 --> 00:46:20,510
because it's your story, you know? But it's

1390
00:46:20,510 --> 00:46:22,269
more of like articulate it in the frame

1391
00:46:22,269 --> 00:46:24,670
of this is my inter this is my

1392
00:46:24,670 --> 00:46:27,569
interaction with the divine or with with Christ,

1393
00:46:27,630 --> 00:46:28,130
and

1394
00:46:28,510 --> 00:46:30,369
this is what he did for me. And

1395
00:46:30,909 --> 00:46:32,109
why don't you come to mind? He will

1396
00:46:32,109 --> 00:46:33,425
do it for you.

1397
00:46:33,724 --> 00:46:35,805
Exactly. This was my interaction. This is how

1398
00:46:35,805 --> 00:46:37,184
he changed my heart.

1399
00:46:37,485 --> 00:46:38,844
This is how he helped me heal and

1400
00:46:38,844 --> 00:46:39,344
recover.

1401
00:46:39,965 --> 00:46:41,985
And through healing and recovery, I eventually

1402
00:46:42,285 --> 00:46:44,844
chief sobriety over fourteen years now, but I

1403
00:46:44,844 --> 00:46:46,864
don't carry a fourteen year coin. Yeah.

1404
00:46:48,230 --> 00:46:50,309
And he will change your heart too. Yeah.

1405
00:46:50,309 --> 00:46:52,309
You are not beyond his help. You are

1406
00:46:52,309 --> 00:46:55,109
not beyond his reach. Yeah. That's awesome. Does

1407
00:46:55,109 --> 00:46:57,109
anything scare you, like, being a bishop with

1408
00:46:57,109 --> 00:46:59,210
with your story? I mean, do you do

1409
00:46:59,349 --> 00:47:01,109
you say yes yourself, or do you or

1410
00:47:01,109 --> 00:47:02,789
do you worry about relapse? I mean, any

1411
00:47:02,789 --> 00:47:05,074
of that? I literally still live one day

1412
00:47:05,074 --> 00:47:06,214
at a time. Yeah.

1413
00:47:06,514 --> 00:47:07,974
I feel like

1414
00:47:08,594 --> 00:47:10,514
Alma where he said that he could remember

1415
00:47:10,514 --> 00:47:12,454
the pain of his sins no more.

1416
00:47:12,755 --> 00:47:15,014
I still remember my sins, but the pain

1417
00:47:15,394 --> 00:47:16,534
part is gone.

1418
00:47:16,835 --> 00:47:18,599
And you remember when the when the Lamanites

1419
00:47:18,659 --> 00:47:20,280
had were pounding on the Nephites

1420
00:47:20,900 --> 00:47:24,359
and God made the Nephites burdens light,

1421
00:47:24,980 --> 00:47:26,519
but he did not remove them.

1422
00:47:26,980 --> 00:47:28,900
So I understand that I could fall again

1423
00:47:28,900 --> 00:47:29,400
tomorrow.

1424
00:47:29,699 --> 00:47:32,875
I understand that. I don't fear that because,

1425
00:47:33,255 --> 00:47:35,014
I have a lot of tools to help

1426
00:47:35,014 --> 00:47:36,234
me cope with it now.

1427
00:47:36,695 --> 00:47:38,775
My biggest fear as a bishop is blowing

1428
00:47:38,775 --> 00:47:41,014
it with these kids. But see, that's pride

1429
00:47:41,014 --> 00:47:43,949
based too because it's not about me, It's

1430
00:47:43,949 --> 00:47:45,710
about the savior. And so if I can

1431
00:47:45,710 --> 00:47:48,030
just keep pointing them that way, just keep

1432
00:47:48,030 --> 00:47:50,510
pointing them that way, that's the whole purpose

1433
00:47:50,510 --> 00:47:52,869
of sharing. You know, I heard this saying,

1434
00:47:52,869 --> 00:47:54,690
it it's not helpful

1435
00:47:54,989 --> 00:47:55,710
to share

1436
00:47:56,545 --> 00:47:59,125
to compare wounds most of the time.

1437
00:47:59,425 --> 00:48:02,244
It sometimes is helpful to share wounds.

1438
00:48:02,704 --> 00:48:04,885
So not comparing them, but sharing them sometimes.

1439
00:48:05,025 --> 00:48:07,025
And for them to know that, you know,

1440
00:48:07,025 --> 00:48:08,625
it can there's a place to go. Yeah.

1441
00:48:08,625 --> 00:48:10,304
There's a place to find healing. Yeah. So

1442
00:48:10,304 --> 00:48:12,730
true. What would you say to maybe some

1443
00:48:12,730 --> 00:48:14,969
stake presence listening that, well, let me back

1444
00:48:14,969 --> 00:48:15,549
up. And

1445
00:48:15,849 --> 00:48:17,769
I remember as a bishop, I'd have this,

1446
00:48:18,489 --> 00:48:20,650
this exercise I went through. I'd call it

1447
00:48:20,650 --> 00:48:23,449
the dark horse candidate where maybe we were

1448
00:48:23,449 --> 00:48:24,989
as a bishopric, we were together

1449
00:48:25,325 --> 00:48:27,244
trying to think of names or individuals to

1450
00:48:27,244 --> 00:48:29,825
call the different positions. And sometimes they were

1451
00:48:30,045 --> 00:48:32,125
suggesting a name as an elder corn president,

1452
00:48:32,125 --> 00:48:34,445
the stake president or whatever. Right. And I'd

1453
00:48:34,445 --> 00:48:36,125
often turn to my Bishop and say, okay,

1454
00:48:36,125 --> 00:48:37,885
I need a dark horse candidate. Like, who

1455
00:48:37,885 --> 00:48:40,670
is just that's crazy idea. Right. Because I

1456
00:48:40,670 --> 00:48:42,789
think there's this principle of, like, you sort

1457
00:48:42,789 --> 00:48:43,410
of have

1458
00:48:43,710 --> 00:48:45,869
to push against revelation in order for it

1459
00:48:45,869 --> 00:48:47,809
to push back. So I'm going to say,

1460
00:48:48,030 --> 00:48:49,489
what do you think about this, God?

1461
00:48:50,190 --> 00:48:51,730
Is this crazy enough that sometimes

1462
00:48:52,190 --> 00:48:53,765
you would come back and be like, I'm

1463
00:48:53,765 --> 00:48:56,005
glad you asked because I know you wouldn't

1464
00:48:56,005 --> 00:48:58,005
have picked that person, but I think that's

1465
00:48:58,005 --> 00:48:59,925
a good idea. And then I really like

1466
00:48:59,925 --> 00:49:02,405
that, Kurt. Some beautiful things happen. So what

1467
00:49:02,405 --> 00:49:04,565
would you say to state presidents who maybe

1468
00:49:04,565 --> 00:49:06,164
leave some of these individuals off the list

1469
00:49:06,164 --> 00:49:07,545
because they have that history?

1470
00:49:08,070 --> 00:49:10,150
Well, I really like the way you phrase

1471
00:49:10,150 --> 00:49:12,070
that because God's gonna respond to what you

1472
00:49:12,070 --> 00:49:12,969
take to God.

1473
00:49:13,430 --> 00:49:16,150
It's rare that he says, thou shalt call

1474
00:49:16,150 --> 00:49:18,230
this man or this woman. Yep. But he's

1475
00:49:18,230 --> 00:49:19,989
gonna respond to the candidates that you provide

1476
00:49:19,989 --> 00:49:20,650
to him

1477
00:49:21,054 --> 00:49:22,655
normally. So I would say to the state

1478
00:49:22,655 --> 00:49:25,295
president, take a chance. It's funny. You think

1479
00:49:25,295 --> 00:49:27,534
that you know the history of him and

1480
00:49:27,534 --> 00:49:29,795
him and him, and you're disqualifying

1481
00:49:30,094 --> 00:49:32,114
them because you think you know your history.

1482
00:49:32,494 --> 00:49:32,994
Well,

1483
00:49:33,420 --> 00:49:35,019
him and him and him and him over

1484
00:49:35,019 --> 00:49:37,739
there maybe haven't just fully disclosed all of

1485
00:49:37,739 --> 00:49:40,159
their history yet. Right. Right. And I would

1486
00:49:40,300 --> 00:49:42,940
always take the honest guy who's come out

1487
00:49:42,940 --> 00:49:45,375
and talked about it over the guy that

1488
00:49:45,534 --> 00:49:47,775
has not been able to confront it himself

1489
00:49:47,775 --> 00:49:49,534
because there's more out there than we know.

1490
00:49:49,534 --> 00:49:51,855
Yeah. And that's a I know that there

1491
00:49:51,855 --> 00:49:54,434
are probably bishops out there, relief site presidents,

1492
00:49:54,735 --> 00:49:57,554
individuals who are struggling with shame filled,

1493
00:49:57,909 --> 00:50:00,389
you know, transgressions that they don't know what

1494
00:50:00,389 --> 00:50:02,070
to do with. And so they sort of

1495
00:50:02,070 --> 00:50:03,989
put on that pose or that facade as

1496
00:50:03,989 --> 00:50:05,510
they just say, well, I'm just gonna carry

1497
00:50:05,510 --> 00:50:07,750
on and maybe I'm gonna keep trying. I'm

1498
00:50:07,750 --> 00:50:09,510
gonna I'm gonna keep trying. And that's not

1499
00:50:09,510 --> 00:50:11,510
an evil intent. Right. It's just that we

1500
00:50:11,510 --> 00:50:13,255
don't know another way to carry on. I

1501
00:50:13,255 --> 00:50:15,655
told you about my quilt idea that that

1502
00:50:15,655 --> 00:50:18,155
I lived my life with all these beautiful

1503
00:50:18,295 --> 00:50:20,775
squares to my quilt. But there was just

1504
00:50:20,775 --> 00:50:23,275
this one inky, black, tarry, filthy

1505
00:50:23,815 --> 00:50:25,414
square on my quilt. And as long as

1506
00:50:25,414 --> 00:50:26,934
I kept it in the shadows, then I

1507
00:50:26,934 --> 00:50:29,329
could live in this big, beautiful, bright

1508
00:50:29,710 --> 00:50:32,030
colored, wonderful quilt. And then when I hit

1509
00:50:32,030 --> 00:50:33,710
rock bottom, then somebody put my quilt in

1510
00:50:33,710 --> 00:50:35,309
the washer and all that ink and tar

1511
00:50:35,550 --> 00:50:38,110
Yeah. Contaminated the whole thing, and the savior

1512
00:50:38,110 --> 00:50:40,590
gave me a new quilt. Yeah. And a

1513
00:50:40,590 --> 00:50:42,530
few thoughts come to mind. Just the exercise

1514
00:50:42,829 --> 00:50:44,465
of, like, you know, maybe

1515
00:50:45,325 --> 00:50:46,605
you don't want to roll the dice on

1516
00:50:46,605 --> 00:50:48,364
this individual because you're not sure about his

1517
00:50:48,364 --> 00:50:50,045
history, then call him up, take him out

1518
00:50:50,045 --> 00:50:51,805
to lunch and sit down and say, tell

1519
00:50:51,805 --> 00:50:53,744
me the story. Tell me the story. Right.

1520
00:50:53,885 --> 00:50:56,045
It's important. I mean, just sitting here talking

1521
00:50:56,045 --> 00:50:57,485
with you and hearing you is like, I

1522
00:50:57,485 --> 00:51:00,460
have no worry with you know, Bishop Hotelling,

1523
00:51:00,519 --> 00:51:02,119
you know, running the show here. And like

1524
00:51:02,119 --> 00:51:04,119
you said, all of us could fall. Right?

1525
00:51:04,119 --> 00:51:06,440
It can happen. But what a great experience.

1526
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:07,920
And then the trust you're able to build,

1527
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:10,039
how you leverage some of that history and

1528
00:51:10,039 --> 00:51:13,324
the redemption you've you've shared. So that's awesome.

1529
00:51:13,545 --> 00:51:15,804
That's great. And, and just the idea of

1530
00:51:16,105 --> 00:51:18,264
recognizing these individuals who may have a history

1531
00:51:18,264 --> 00:51:20,264
but have overcome it to some extent through

1532
00:51:20,264 --> 00:51:22,585
the grace of Jesus Christ, like, they're practiced

1533
00:51:22,585 --> 00:51:24,045
in being open

1534
00:51:24,425 --> 00:51:26,344
and saying, like, maybe they'll be more like

1535
00:51:26,344 --> 00:51:27,269
to call it the steak bread and say,

1536
00:51:27,269 --> 00:51:28,710
you know what? This week's a tough week.

1537
00:51:28,710 --> 00:51:30,469
I have this history and I'm a little

1538
00:51:30,469 --> 00:51:32,550
more vulnerable right now. Can I connect with

1539
00:51:32,550 --> 00:51:34,230
you? Or I want you to know I'm

1540
00:51:34,230 --> 00:51:36,250
connecting with others or things like that. Right?

1541
00:51:36,309 --> 00:51:37,429
Well, you know, the thing about a porn

1542
00:51:37,429 --> 00:51:39,269
addiction too is that we directly associate it

1543
00:51:39,269 --> 00:51:40,650
with a sex addiction. So

1544
00:51:41,085 --> 00:51:42,445
we assume if a person has looked at

1545
00:51:42,445 --> 00:51:44,284
a Playboy, then he's also had affairs or

1546
00:51:44,284 --> 00:51:45,965
something like that. Yeah. Yeah. We go that

1547
00:51:45,965 --> 00:51:47,804
way. Well, the person that cuts, are you

1548
00:51:47,804 --> 00:51:50,045
gonna keep them from holding a calling? The

1549
00:51:50,045 --> 00:51:51,405
person that pulls their hair out, are you

1550
00:51:51,405 --> 00:51:53,644
gonna keep them from holding a calling? The

1551
00:51:53,644 --> 00:51:56,570
person that has an anger issue that always

1552
00:51:56,570 --> 00:51:58,890
has to be right that that gambles, is

1553
00:51:58,890 --> 00:52:02,510
that completely disqualifying them from serving anywhere? Mhmm.

1554
00:52:02,650 --> 00:52:03,390
And so

1555
00:52:03,849 --> 00:52:05,630
porn addiction isn't about sex.

1556
00:52:06,585 --> 00:52:07,965
There's lots of good

1557
00:52:08,344 --> 00:52:10,905
people who have a lot to offer that

1558
00:52:10,905 --> 00:52:14,264
are struggling and are overcoming. Yeah. Yeah. Try

1559
00:52:14,264 --> 00:52:16,744
them. Alright. I'm turning my studio audience. Any

1560
00:52:16,744 --> 00:52:19,385
questions I've missed or things I should ask,

1561
00:52:19,385 --> 00:52:21,164
or do we cover it?

1562
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:23,840
Do you still work the 12 step? I

1563
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:27,039
do. And, I've been to twelve step meetings

1564
00:52:27,039 --> 00:52:29,039
with some of my people. I don't attend

1565
00:52:29,039 --> 00:52:29,539
weekly,

1566
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:31,140
but especially

1567
00:52:31,519 --> 00:52:33,280
steps ten, eleven, and 12, kind of the

1568
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:34,340
maintenance steps.

1569
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:35,619
I bought

1570
00:52:35,945 --> 00:52:37,945
a couple of hundred one day at a

1571
00:52:37,945 --> 00:52:40,184
time coins, and at that fireside, the one

1572
00:52:40,184 --> 00:52:41,385
we have the end of this month, the

1573
00:52:41,385 --> 00:52:43,945
May Mhmm. I will give a one day

1574
00:52:43,945 --> 00:52:45,385
at a time coin to every single one

1575
00:52:45,385 --> 00:52:48,105
of my board members That's cool. Telling them

1576
00:52:48,105 --> 00:52:49,784
again the story and reminding them you only

1577
00:52:49,784 --> 00:52:51,260
live the gospel one day at a time.

1578
00:52:51,260 --> 00:52:52,539
You can only stay sober one day at

1579
00:52:52,539 --> 00:52:54,059
a time. You can only stay clean one

1580
00:52:54,059 --> 00:52:56,460
day. Everything that is important to do in

1581
00:52:56,460 --> 00:52:57,900
life can only be done one day at

1582
00:52:57,900 --> 00:53:00,239
a time. You cannot relitigate the past.

1583
00:53:00,539 --> 00:53:03,339
You cannot predict or or or yes, we

1584
00:53:03,339 --> 00:53:05,179
set goals, but you can't live in the

1585
00:53:05,179 --> 00:53:05,679
future.

1586
00:53:06,144 --> 00:53:09,204
You can only succeed today with God's help

1587
00:53:09,345 --> 00:53:10,704
today, one day at a time. And I

1588
00:53:10,704 --> 00:53:12,065
love that, you know, going back to your

1589
00:53:12,065 --> 00:53:14,305
umbrella analogy that you saw it as an

1590
00:53:14,305 --> 00:53:16,625
umbrella for everybody else, but then you discover

1591
00:53:16,625 --> 00:53:17,985
the umbrella was over you the whole time.

1592
00:53:17,985 --> 00:53:20,950
And now you're extending that addiction or that

1593
00:53:20,950 --> 00:53:23,430
brokenness umbrella to everybody because we all need

1594
00:53:23,430 --> 00:53:25,030
the savior. We all need to be under

1595
00:53:25,030 --> 00:53:26,789
his umbrella. So here's your coin. That's the

1596
00:53:26,789 --> 00:53:28,469
whole thing. That's right. And so remember this.

1597
00:53:28,469 --> 00:53:29,590
Yeah. And every time I get in my

1598
00:53:29,590 --> 00:53:31,590
pocket, it rattles, and I remember what I'm

1599
00:53:31,590 --> 00:53:33,190
trying to do and why and what the

1600
00:53:33,190 --> 00:53:34,550
source of the power is. So So where

1601
00:53:34,550 --> 00:53:36,764
do you get one day coin coins? Well,

1602
00:53:37,085 --> 00:53:37,585
from

1603
00:53:37,885 --> 00:53:39,644
recovery-world.com.

1604
00:53:39,644 --> 00:53:41,644
Nice. And you order them in both then.

1605
00:53:41,644 --> 00:53:42,684
I did. I get them about a hundred

1606
00:53:42,684 --> 00:53:44,204
at a time. Yeah. Oh, that's cool. That's

1607
00:53:44,204 --> 00:53:46,545
great. Any other questions I missed?

1608
00:53:47,164 --> 00:53:48,784
Come up here and talk in the mic.

1609
00:53:49,630 --> 00:53:50,989
You could tell who you are and where

1610
00:53:50,989 --> 00:53:52,289
you're from, but you don't have to.

1611
00:53:52,909 --> 00:53:54,530
Sean from Lehigh. Hi, Sean.

1612
00:53:55,150 --> 00:53:56,530
Quick question. What would

1613
00:53:56,989 --> 00:53:58,829
you say or advice would you give to

1614
00:53:58,829 --> 00:54:00,130
friends, family,

1615
00:54:00,670 --> 00:54:01,409
ward members

1616
00:54:02,364 --> 00:54:04,065
of those who are in the circle

1617
00:54:04,445 --> 00:54:05,905
of a recovering addict?

1618
00:54:06,445 --> 00:54:08,684
Oh, that is a great question, and really

1619
00:54:08,684 --> 00:54:10,625
the bottom line is to love them

1620
00:54:11,485 --> 00:54:14,045
and to continue to point them towards the

1621
00:54:14,045 --> 00:54:14,545
savior.

1622
00:54:14,925 --> 00:54:17,369
I realized as an addict that I was

1623
00:54:17,369 --> 00:54:18,969
talking to my wife about somebody was bugging

1624
00:54:18,969 --> 00:54:20,989
me, you know, as in in my addiction.

1625
00:54:21,210 --> 00:54:23,210
Somebody was bugging me in the ward one

1626
00:54:23,210 --> 00:54:24,650
day, and I said, I just I don't

1627
00:54:24,650 --> 00:54:26,170
understand why are they like that and blah

1628
00:54:26,170 --> 00:54:27,210
blah blah. And she says, you know what

1629
00:54:27,210 --> 00:54:28,809
your problem is? She says, you don't love

1630
00:54:28,809 --> 00:54:29,789
anybody because

1631
00:54:30,170 --> 00:54:31,230
you don't love yourself.

1632
00:54:31,734 --> 00:54:34,214
And I realized that that was eventually, not

1633
00:54:34,214 --> 00:54:36,375
not immediately, but realized that that was the

1634
00:54:36,375 --> 00:54:39,335
key. And so as I began to allow

1635
00:54:39,335 --> 00:54:41,655
God's love to come to me, this is

1636
00:54:41,655 --> 00:54:43,815
the order it happened for me, then I

1637
00:54:43,815 --> 00:54:44,875
was able to

1638
00:54:45,255 --> 00:54:46,394
eventually feel

1639
00:54:46,980 --> 00:54:48,920
love back for God,

1640
00:54:49,460 --> 00:54:51,780
and then the most incredible thing happened that

1641
00:54:51,780 --> 00:54:53,940
I never thought would. I began to love

1642
00:54:53,940 --> 00:54:54,440
myself,

1643
00:54:54,980 --> 00:54:56,739
but only in that order. I could never

1644
00:54:56,739 --> 00:54:58,659
love myself until I love God back, and

1645
00:54:58,659 --> 00:55:00,920
I could never love him until I accepted

1646
00:55:01,059 --> 00:55:03,244
his love for me. And then after I

1647
00:55:03,244 --> 00:55:05,405
began to love myself, then I was able

1648
00:55:05,405 --> 00:55:07,724
to begin to love God's other children. And

1649
00:55:07,724 --> 00:55:09,805
so the answer to those that are in

1650
00:55:09,805 --> 00:55:10,545
the circle

1651
00:55:11,085 --> 00:55:13,805
of living, family and friends circle of those

1652
00:55:13,805 --> 00:55:16,125
that are in addiction, is to continue loving

1653
00:55:16,125 --> 00:55:19,230
them, to continue showing grace for them,

1654
00:55:19,690 --> 00:55:21,150
to continue to

1655
00:55:21,529 --> 00:55:24,670
accept them, to continue to connect with them.

1656
00:55:24,730 --> 00:55:26,489
They do not need to be isolated. They

1657
00:55:26,489 --> 00:55:28,650
don't need to be told it's wrong. They

1658
00:55:28,650 --> 00:55:31,315
get that. They don't need to be rejected.

1659
00:55:31,694 --> 00:55:32,434
They need

1660
00:55:32,894 --> 00:55:34,914
to be embraced, loved, accepted,

1661
00:55:35,295 --> 00:55:35,795
held.

1662
00:55:36,255 --> 00:55:37,875
Yeah. Any other questions?

1663
00:55:38,414 --> 00:55:39,534
You mentioned that,

1664
00:55:40,094 --> 00:55:40,594
you

1665
00:55:41,295 --> 00:55:44,559
that bishops and, you know, the leadership shouldn't

1666
00:55:44,559 --> 00:55:46,019
forget about the victims,

1667
00:55:46,639 --> 00:55:47,619
the true victims.

1668
00:55:48,319 --> 00:55:49,539
What would you recommend?

1669
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:50,819
What suggestions

1670
00:55:51,199 --> 00:55:53,780
would you recommend to really help those victims?

1671
00:55:54,319 --> 00:55:56,079
Well, it should and by victims, I'm talking

1672
00:55:56,079 --> 00:55:58,244
about the spouse of the addict. Right? And

1673
00:55:58,244 --> 00:56:00,824
remember that I believe that the addict himself

1674
00:56:00,964 --> 00:56:02,824
or herself is a victim.

1675
00:56:03,125 --> 00:56:05,284
Okay? But when we're talking about the spouse

1676
00:56:05,284 --> 00:56:07,045
of the porn addict or the sex addict

1677
00:56:07,045 --> 00:56:07,545
specifically,

1678
00:56:08,085 --> 00:56:09,144
it starts with

1679
00:56:09,525 --> 00:56:12,690
interviewing them, offering them blessings, checking in with

1680
00:56:12,690 --> 00:56:15,329
them, making sure the Relief Society President's aware

1681
00:56:15,329 --> 00:56:18,390
that they, I see you. I see you.

1682
00:56:18,690 --> 00:56:21,090
Instead of, I'm gonna work on him, and

1683
00:56:21,090 --> 00:56:23,170
I hope you're okay too. It just gets

1684
00:56:23,170 --> 00:56:26,275
forgotten, not that they're intentionally being ignored, but

1685
00:56:26,275 --> 00:56:28,994
they are being ignored, that spouse. So it

1686
00:56:28,994 --> 00:56:31,974
starts with frequent if you're seeing the addict

1687
00:56:32,034 --> 00:56:32,775
once a week,

1688
00:56:33,155 --> 00:56:35,715
initially, you should be seeing the spouse once

1689
00:56:35,715 --> 00:56:37,954
a week, and you should talk to them

1690
00:56:37,954 --> 00:56:39,940
separately and find out where they're at and

1691
00:56:39,940 --> 00:56:41,940
where their heart is and what their feelings

1692
00:56:41,940 --> 00:56:42,440
are.

1693
00:56:42,739 --> 00:56:45,000
And, there should be a lot of dialogue

1694
00:56:45,219 --> 00:56:48,019
between the priesthood leader and the spouse. And

1695
00:56:48,019 --> 00:56:49,860
I remember from my experience as a bishop,

1696
00:56:49,860 --> 00:56:52,519
like, just how important that relationship was that

1697
00:56:52,704 --> 00:56:54,545
I remember Phoenix's is where I thought, okay,

1698
00:56:54,545 --> 00:56:55,664
I need to reach out to the wife.

1699
00:56:55,664 --> 00:56:57,184
And the wife was, like, you know, going

1700
00:56:57,184 --> 00:56:58,964
through all this betrayal trauma. I was like,

1701
00:56:59,105 --> 00:57:01,744
okay. Because of you, husband, now I have

1702
00:57:01,744 --> 00:57:03,105
to go talk with the bishop. I don't

1703
00:57:03,105 --> 00:57:04,784
even know him. It's so awkward. The last

1704
00:57:04,784 --> 00:57:05,984
thing I wanna do is walk in that

1705
00:57:05,984 --> 00:57:07,739
office. And so I would feel like they

1706
00:57:07,739 --> 00:57:09,019
would sort of be that I'm I'm fine.

1707
00:57:09,019 --> 00:57:10,940
I'm fine. Right? So sometimes it's a long

1708
00:57:10,940 --> 00:57:12,780
haul. You sort of have to keep connecting

1709
00:57:12,780 --> 00:57:15,260
and encouraging and building a relationship there. Hopefully,

1710
00:57:15,260 --> 00:57:16,940
you have it. You're already doing that. So

1711
00:57:16,940 --> 00:57:19,074
when these things blow up that those some

1712
00:57:19,074 --> 00:57:20,714
of these things come up as surprises and

1713
00:57:20,714 --> 00:57:22,954
maybe the Bishop hasn't established a relationship with

1714
00:57:22,954 --> 00:57:23,775
either one,

1715
00:57:24,155 --> 00:57:26,554
a deep relationship yet. The other thing is

1716
00:57:26,554 --> 00:57:28,554
for the Bishop or Stake President to offer

1717
00:57:28,554 --> 00:57:31,614
counseling services. Therapy is huge and all this.

1718
00:57:32,074 --> 00:57:34,655
It matters. It matters. 12 steps therapy.

1719
00:57:35,250 --> 00:57:37,489
And someone who's not just any therapist, but,

1720
00:57:37,489 --> 00:57:39,250
you know, really get someone who's maybe has

1721
00:57:39,250 --> 00:57:41,570
some experience with this type of situation. Betrayal

1722
00:57:41,570 --> 00:57:43,730
trauma, you mentioned that phrase, is a real

1723
00:57:43,730 --> 00:57:46,289
thing. It's real. And just like addiction is

1724
00:57:46,289 --> 00:57:47,969
real. And so, yeah, we need to we

1725
00:57:47,969 --> 00:57:49,250
need to be more aware of that, I

1726
00:57:49,250 --> 00:57:51,565
believe. Nice. Alright. I got one more question

1727
00:57:51,565 --> 00:57:52,625
for you, Mike.

1728
00:57:53,005 --> 00:57:54,305
Just reflecting back,

1729
00:57:54,684 --> 00:57:55,664
you know, in your

1730
00:57:56,045 --> 00:57:57,885
in your experience as a leader, you know,

1731
00:57:57,885 --> 00:58:00,844
obviously, more formal leadership, but your experience being

1732
00:58:00,844 --> 00:58:03,670
a leader in this addiction recovery world, how

1733
00:58:03,670 --> 00:58:05,190
has being a leader helped you become a

1734
00:58:05,190 --> 00:58:06,809
better follower of Jesus Christ?

1735
00:58:07,190 --> 00:58:08,570
Oh, that's important because

1736
00:58:08,869 --> 00:58:09,530
as I've

1737
00:58:09,989 --> 00:58:12,869
come to learn who he really is and

1738
00:58:12,869 --> 00:58:14,389
not who I thought he and the father

1739
00:58:14,389 --> 00:58:14,630
were

1740
00:58:15,190 --> 00:58:16,469
you know, Kurt, I'm not sure if that's

1741
00:58:16,469 --> 00:58:17,925
the order. I'm not sure if being a

1742
00:58:17,925 --> 00:58:19,625
leader helped me be a better follower.

1743
00:58:19,925 --> 00:58:22,325
I think that learning to be a true

1744
00:58:22,325 --> 00:58:24,485
follower of Him is what has helped me

1745
00:58:24,485 --> 00:58:25,765
to be. If I have any skills as

1746
00:58:25,765 --> 00:58:27,125
a leader, I think that's what's helped me

1747
00:58:27,125 --> 00:58:28,905
to be a good leader. Understanding

1748
00:58:29,204 --> 00:58:30,965
who He is. You know, Joseph Smith said

1749
00:58:30,965 --> 00:58:32,380
we have to know the true nature of

1750
00:58:32,380 --> 00:58:33,280
God in order

1751
00:58:33,579 --> 00:58:35,119
to have faith in him.

1752
00:58:35,420 --> 00:58:38,000
And most of my life, I didn't understand

1753
00:58:38,059 --> 00:58:40,219
who God was. I had a false God

1754
00:58:40,219 --> 00:58:42,380
placed up there, and that's who I thought

1755
00:58:42,380 --> 00:58:43,900
I worshiped and who was gonna punish me

1756
00:58:43,900 --> 00:58:45,045
and who was after me.

1757
00:58:45,444 --> 00:58:46,824
But entering recovery,

1758
00:58:47,204 --> 00:58:49,605
finding healing has allowed me to be a

1759
00:58:49,605 --> 00:58:52,804
better follower. And that has allowed me Just

1760
00:58:52,804 --> 00:58:55,364
sharing that testimony of who God is and

1761
00:58:55,364 --> 00:58:57,125
who the savior is has allowed me to

1762
00:58:57,125 --> 00:58:59,469
be for eleven months a decent leader, I

1763
00:58:59,469 --> 00:58:59,969
think.

1764
00:59:09,469 --> 00:59:11,789
That concludes this episode of the Leading Saints

1765
00:59:11,789 --> 00:59:13,630
podcast. We'd love to hear from you about

1766
00:59:13,630 --> 00:59:15,465
your questions or thoughts or comments. You can

1767
00:59:15,465 --> 00:59:17,865
either leave a comment on the, post related

1768
00:59:17,865 --> 00:59:20,345
to this episode at leadingsaints.org

1769
00:59:20,345 --> 00:59:22,605
or go to leadingsaints.org/contact

1770
00:59:22,905 --> 00:59:24,925
and send us your perspective or questions.

1771
00:59:25,224 --> 00:59:27,224
If there's other episodes or topics you'd like

1772
00:59:27,224 --> 00:59:28,969
to hear on the Leading Saints podcast, go

1773
00:59:28,969 --> 00:59:30,809
to leadingsaints.org/contact

1774
00:59:30,809 --> 00:59:33,130
and share with us the information there. And

1775
00:59:33,130 --> 00:59:34,889
we would love for you to share this

1776
00:59:34,889 --> 00:59:37,289
with any individual you think this would apply

1777
00:59:37,289 --> 00:59:39,690
to, especially maybe individuals in your ward council

1778
00:59:39,690 --> 00:59:41,869
or other leaders that you may know who

1779
00:59:41,925 --> 00:59:44,505
would really appreciate the perspectives that we discussed.

1780
00:59:45,125 --> 00:59:47,925
And that concludes this throwback episode of the

1781
00:59:47,925 --> 00:59:49,224
Leading Saints podcast.

1782
00:59:49,765 --> 00:59:52,565
Remember, learn more about disclosing betrayal from Jeff

1783
00:59:52,565 --> 00:59:55,864
Struer by visiting leadingsaints.org/fourteen.

1784
01:00:00,809 --> 01:00:03,449
It came as a result of the position

1785
01:00:03,449 --> 01:00:06,429
of leadership which was imposed upon us

1786
01:00:06,969 --> 01:00:09,554
by the god of heaven who brought forth

1787
01:00:09,554 --> 01:00:10,534
a restoration

1788
01:00:10,835 --> 01:00:13,175
of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

1789
01:00:13,714 --> 01:00:14,695
When the declaration

1790
01:00:15,074 --> 01:00:17,414
was made concerning the only

1791
01:00:18,114 --> 01:00:20,514
true and living Church upon the face of

1792
01:00:20,514 --> 01:00:21,175
the earth,

1793
01:00:21,590 --> 01:00:24,329
We were immediately put in a position of

1794
01:00:24,469 --> 01:00:24,969
loneliness,

1795
01:00:25,269 --> 01:00:26,890
the loneliness of leadership

1796
01:00:27,829 --> 01:00:30,890
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,

1797
01:00:31,829 --> 01:00:34,309
and to which we must face up with

1798
01:00:34,309 --> 01:00:35,769
boldness and courage

1799
01:00:36,641 --> 01:00:37,301
and ability.