Have you ever tried to help youth with
their mental health? That's a tricky road to
travel. I have to tell you about an
inspiring presentation we recorded with the one and
only Jody Moore. Yes. That life coaching Jody
Moore. A few years ago, she recorded a
fantastic presentation
covering topics like normalizing
tough feelings with youth, a more positive understanding
of stress, how to minimize shame, and mastering
the skill set of empathy and better understanding
anxiety. I want you to see this presentation
as soon as you finish this podcast episode.
You can go to leadingsaints.org/fourteen,
and this will get you access to the
entire video library at no cost for fourteen
days.
Jody's presentation is in the Mentally Healthy Saints
library, and you'll be a better leader or
parent when you finish it. Again, go to
leadingsaints.org/14
or check out the show notes for the
link.
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Welcome back to another episode of Leading Saints.
And today, I welcome in a good friend
named Braden Jensen, who is a therapist in
Sandy, Utah
and has a really unique background of being
a seminary teacher, a full time seminary teacher
in Utah, and then transitioning, filling this call
to help youth even more and more of
a a therapy realm and went back to
school, became a therapist, and now is, helping
youth. And so, obviously,
with so many youth leaders out there,
it's interesting to maybe better understand the psyche
of youth or what are experiences that youth
are having that would be helpful to us
and how to, you know, break through those
those brick walls they put up at times.
And so tying to a therapist who works
with youth and is doing this time and
time and time again, it can really be
helpful for church leaders. So we talk about
feelings. Right. But in a way of how
do we get youth to actually feel their
feelings or identify their feelings, you know, being
more, articulate
and aware of the feelings that they're going
through so that then they can get past
them or process them. And, and how do
we bring those into a church context? So
that's Sunday lesson or during activities. Cause the
more we can connect them with their feelings,
the more often we're connecting them to their
soul, to their spirit. And obviously that's a
phenomenal foundation to work from when talking about
religious,
concepts. Right? So, you're gonna appreciate
Braden's background, his, effort and bringing grace into
the lives of youth and helping him get
past the hyper focus on behaviors
and really just finding connection, authenticity,
and encouragement as a youth in, in these
latter days. Right? So here's my interview with
Braden Jensen.
Alright, Braden. So you made the career change
from being a seminary teacher. You taught mainly
at Skyline High in Salt Lake. Yeah. Exclusively
at at Skyline High. Oh, really? Okay. You're
all done. Nice. And you became a therapist.
Yes.
What were you thinking?
What's the story behind that? That's a good
quest it's a good question because I had
a lot of people
when you're a seminary teacher, you have so
like, basically, anyone that finds out you're a
seminary teacher is like, oh, man. That would
be the most amazing job ever. Yeah. We're
talking full time, like Yeah. Full time full
time. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. If you're if you're
outside the Utah bubble.
Here in Utah, it's release time. So students
come over
from the high school during class periods and,
man, we had, like, you know, 700 between
seven and eight hundred students there at Skyline.
So Yeah. It was super fun to get
to spend time with them and get to
know their hearts and, man, get to share
so many things with them. And so any
yeah. Anyone that talks to you is like,
man, being a seminary teacher, like, that's you're
living the dream, man. Like, it's it's great.
And it was. Like, it it it really
was. And so, yeah, making that transition,
like, puzzled me even a little bit sometimes.
And So was it just a calling from
God or, like, what was Yeah. It was,
it was really,
you know, getting into
seminary.
And the further I got in that seminary
journey, like, if you would have asked me,
I would have told you that. I'd be
like, hey. Like, thirty year seminary guy. Like,
that was the plan.
And got about five years into it and
just realized that there was some different ways
that I could help and dig in with
people. And I started to notice patterns of
what my students were experiencing.
And there were there's just some ways as
a seminary teacher that you're handcuffed a little
bit. You know, there's boundaries in place and
and things like that for good reason. Yeah.
You're not a therapist when you're therapist.
So You are now, but I would have
yeah. I would have, students that would come
and approach me, and and they'd bring up
hard things, you know, relationship problems or family
dynamics
and stuff like that that's, you know, can
be challenging and was challenging for them. Addiction
and things like that, like, you know, real
stuff that they're dealing with and wrestling with.
And
I just started to just man, I wish
I could help more or I wish I
could help differently. You know? Seminary,
you get really good at at helping them
understand the what and the why of the
gospel.
And, like, I was like, man, like, I
really wanna do the how part. Like, that's
the good stuff.
So
I started exploring that with some friends who
are therapists and
and just started asking the questions like, hey.
What what does this look like? What do
I gotta do? Because I want I wanna
be able to help this way just a
little bit more deeply. And so, yeah, started
that journey
and did kinda both as I was navigating
school. I was still teaching seminary,
and so did that for a couple of
years. And this is my my first school
year that I have not taught seminary
because I'm I'm doing therapy full time and
loving it. So I'm curious back in the
day when you're that seminary teacher, what were
the like, how did these issues usually come
up? Was it a kind of a comment
in class that was a little off? Did
someone hang out after and wanna talk? Or,
typically, how did that happen?
Yeah. Both of those are are very real
and normal experiences as a seminary teacher. Like,
hey. Oh, I'm I'm just hearing someone say
something that sounded like, man, something
there's something behind that comment that they didn't
bring all the way out. And so, you
know, that would be opportunities for me to
have conversations with students sometimes. It'd be opportunities
for me to have conversations with parents sometimes
and just say, hey. Heard this today and
just wanted to wanted to check-in on that
and just, you know, see what's happening there.
But, yeah, also students, you know, I I
definitely tried to as a seminary teacher, I
kind of prided myself on being able to
have a place where there was safety and
there was comfort. And, really, no matter what
your journey was looking like, I wanted you
to feel good in my class. I I
think everyone deserves
Jesus.
Mhmm. And, like, that's that's what I was
trying to do. So if your journey didn't
look perfect, then
you could come to my class and and
be there and be in it, and I
loved that.
And I think it created an environment where
people felt comfortable bringing up some of the
hard stuff. So, yeah, I would have students
that would, you know, hang out after class
sometimes and just say, hey. Wanna talk through
this, and and this is a this is
a big, hard, heavy thing. Another thing I
did with my students is every semester,
I started off this semester
asking them to write me a letter and
just having them be real in that. And,
like, whatever real looks like to you, that's
what I want you to put in this
letter. I would give them, you know, four
or five things they could include in that
letter if they wanted to. Like, you know,
tell me about your family. Tell me about
what you like to do outside of school
and stuff like that. But then my last
question would just be like, man, like, what
else do you want me to know about,
like, where you're at right now? Mhmm. You
know? Tell me about your relationship with Jesus,
and tell me about
what you're navigating right now and that and
and just, you know, give him an opportunity
to be real. And I would give them
about a half hour to write that letter
in class. Like, it was important to me
to give them time and let them feel
and have them approach me in that way.
And and it led to lots of cool
lots of cool opportunities to connect with those
kids for sure. Yeah. That's a, that's a
great idea. Even a church youth leader can
do that. And I think this is a
dynamic we be aware of. Like, obviously, you
know, you think of the typical youth experience
in the church. Obviously they have their parents,
their Bishop, their youth leaders, and the seminary
teachers. Part of that, even outside of, you
know,
release time seminary is, you know, every every
usually every, you know, teenager has a seminary
teacher that can be a mentor and someone
who's like, well, I'm I'm not comfortable to
open up my parents, my bishop, or my
youth leaders, but this guy kinda seems cool.
Maybe I could ask him a question, you
know, and create that safety. Yeah. Yeah. And
and, again, that that's really what I loved
about a lot of people, when they say,
hey. It must be awesome being a seminary
teacher. You just get to, like, study scriptures
all day. I'm like, oh, that's actually not
my favorite part.
But my favorite part is, just that connection.
Like, being able to be around, rub shoulders
with, you know, these awesome youth. Just have
fun with them. I I feel like sometimes
church and gospel and God, it can become
so serious so quickly that it's important to
remember
what we're doing and and why we're doing
it. Yeah. Is there anything else that comes
to mind? I love that letter ideas because
that that creates a lot of safety, trust,
things like that. Is there anything else as
far as if you were coaching youth leaders
about handling a classroom setting so that questions
come up, concerns come up, or they just
feel like, oh, I wanna be there? I
think something that I just also tried to
do was to
let students know that I'm actually super open
to learning from them.
Like, I'm your teacher. Yes. But I recognize
that my experience is super different from yours,
and I want to I wanna experience some
of what you're experiencing.
So I have to have my heart open
to empathy a little bit and to be
able to feel a little bit of what
they're what they're going through. But I love
this, especially with students who
were just trying to navigate,
you know,
LGBT journeys and and things like that and
and just wanting to understand them better. And
I would if they were willing, I had
students who would share that with me that
that, hey. I'm this is how I'm feeling,
and this is what I'm trying to I'm
trying to figure out. And I would just
say, hey. Like, I'm gonna do my absolute
best as your teacher to, again, help you
experience Jesus because everybody deserves that and and,
like, that's what he's there for.
If I do that in the wrong way,
will you help me, like, teach me? Yeah.
Help me understand. Like, I I know that
I have some things to learn from you.
And so
those were really sacred conversations to have with
people to just man. Like, I want you
to to teach me and help me grow
on that for sure. Yeah. Alright. Well, let's
jump forward to now you're in that therapist
chair.
Obviously,
different dynamics happening, but and and you primarily
work with youth. Is that fair to say?
Yeah. I work I work a lot with
youth. I work a little bit with everybody,
but I would say
that 75%
of of the clients that I see are
somewhere between fifteen and twenty five. So a
lot of high school and college age kids
that are just navigating life. Yeah. That's awesome.
And I always you know, someone who's coming
off the front lines of the battles of
mortality, especially in the context of youth, like,
I'd love to just ask, like, what generally
are you seeing? What themes, what
routines, you know, consistent issues that come to
the surface?
Man, there's a lot. I I feel like
there's obvious ones that everyone is expecting me
to say right now, and and those are
real. There's a reason that those are the
obvious ones. K? Pornography is a big it's
a big issue.
Feelings of anxiety, depression are are big issues.
I think there's some underlying
issues there that, you know, like,
just not understanding and being okay with emotion.
I think a lot of our our youth
are just
trying to figure out a lot of emotions
and trying to navigate that, and that can
be challenging.
And I think that one of the reasons
that that is so challenging is because there's
so many things these days that are encouraging
our youth to
not have to feel. When I'm feeling something
uncomfortable, I'm feeling something
not awesome, then I can fall into my
phone. Or Mhmm. I, you know, I don't
have to I don't have to sit in
the hard stuff. So I'm gonna distract myself
with just scrolling. I'm gonna distract myself with
pornography.
I'm gonna, you know, distract myself in some
other way. So a lot of it is
honestly just helping them understand
what they're feeling, what they need,
and how to navigate that in a healthy
way that aligns with their values and where
they want to be. Yeah. And it really
is those. I mean, they have the stigmatizes
things of, like, pornography and such, but, man,
I just I often think back as I
sort of witnessed my kids growing up and
interacting in their stage of the timeline that
when how you know, is is that age
and I was going through a bad day.
You just kinda sit in front of the
TV and channel surf even but it wasn't
that enjoyable. It's like this random talk show.
Here's a you know, they're selling something Or
this is, like, it is so easy to
numb these days. Like, even in numb games
and and, like, man, there there's
so many things and
and attention spans are are slower and different
and, like, man, like, it it's it's just
tough. Yeah. It's tough being it's tough navigating
that as
a teen as, you know, with just not
as much life experience. Like, man, this is
the first time I'm encountering some of these
feelings, and
I don't really
know how to go about it. Mhmm. I'm
curious, like, that initial visit you have with
youth that because I could be wrong, but
I imagine youth aren't generally telling their parents,
I think I need to see a therapist.
Or, you know,
usually it's like, well, my mom kinda told
me how to come. Come on, baby, be
here. And that's the same thing I heard
in seminary sometimes. Yeah. Right. You know, like,
I'm here because my mom,
you know The threats are Yeah. Take take
away my phone or or whatever. So here
I am. Yeah. And that's fine. Like, you
know, if that's where we're at, that's an
okay place to be. Yeah. Is that typically
how it it starts and then
or how do they how does that first,
like, ten minutes go? I actually think that
most people would be super surprised at how
willing youth are to lean into something like
that.
We assume
I think we as as adults, as parents,
as leaders, as, you know, whatever, we we
assume that, hey. Like,
these youth don't want don't wanna just jump
into the hard stuff right away,
but they do. Like, they largely are ready
for that and wanting that. I think it's
something that they're craving even if they don't
know that they're craving it. So
a lot of what I do
starting out with with youth is just getting
them feeling a little bit, like, giving them
some permission to feel. We'll often
invite some different emotions into the room and
let them interact with it a little bit.
That might sound kinda strange in, like, non
therapy land, but it makes sense. It fits.
And it's just like, oh, like, actually, yeah,
that that sadness that I just interacted with,
it feels really familiar. That's what I'm experiencing
a lot of the time. And just giving
them a chance to feel that and then
going, okay. Like, that's your like, now we're
really recognizing
these emotions. We're recognizing what's going on. And
where do we wanna go from there? And
I let them direct it a lot. You
know? They'll they'll tell you what they need
and what they want. Hey. I actually want
to I wanna be able to deal with
that in a different way when it comes
up. Instead of when I get sad, turning
to video games or scrolling or oversleeping or
whatever, I wanna be able to get what
I need there. Mhmm. And Yeah. Being okay
with it. And it's it's, it's pretty cool
to see them start to self direct that
journey a bit for sure. Yeah. Yeah. That's
cool. Anything else about your experience or just
those the the things you see that you
wanna mention before we move on? I think
something that I see with almost all youth
once we get into the nitty gritty and
we we sit with things,
you know, a session or two or three
is the presence of shame from different places.
You know, that really affects how they're feeling
their other emotions.
And I think helping them see that and
understand that is just a really cool thing,
and and it's interesting to see
how many different places that can come from.
And sometimes it's uncomfortable to acknowledge that for
these young people. Like, man, I might be
carrying some shame because of a family situation
or because of
how my parents have approached this in the
past. Like, that's a hard thing to say.
Like, oh, like, maybe maybe my parents aren't
perfect and they they make mistakes. Like, that's
that's hard. Or maybe, man, like, maybe I
feel shame because of how church has been
for me and to you know, because I've
had maybe not the best experience talking to
the bishop about something that was hard to
talk to the bishop about. Or maybe I've
had a poor experience sitting in a lesson
and having someone tell me that, you know
just just some of those things that that
are hard. And, you know, maybe someone
gave you the idea that that your worth
is tied to what you're wearing or how
you're presenting yourself. And, you know, some of
those those messages that can be subliminal messages
in church and and just seeing where
where that,
where that becomes a shame message that that
someone carries around and then how that also
interacts with the emotions that they're feeling and
what they're what they're trying to navigate. Yeah.
Emotions that they're feeling and what they're what
they're trying to navigate. Yeah. I mean, that
that shame is really and it's sort of
this,
abstract thing at times. It's like,
you know, you can't
you can't just take your body temperature and
say, oh, you've got this much shame. You
know? And it's something you're just swimming so
much. When it comes to, like and, you
know, as you mentioned earlier, like, having youth
just, like, feel their feelings, like, getting like,
at least be able to recognize them and
grasp them. Because I think sometimes, you know,
the
the age old frustration of you ask you
the youth how they're doing. They're like, fine
or I don't know or it's just a
shrug or whatever. And a lot of that
is probably
their
that part of their brain or just the
maturity of life, they haven't gotten to that
place where they can really articulate,
what what is it they're feeling even though
there's a lot that they are feeling. And
so helping them get to that place is
probably a big step. Right? It is. We
call that emotional literacy. Right? Just just being
able to
to express that a little bit. I do
an exercise kinda towards the beginning with most
of my clients that where I have them
write down 10 positive emotion words and 10
negative
emotion words.
Now, you know, it's kinda tricky because emotions
aren't really positive or negative. They're just emotions.
Yeah. But for for that exercise, we we
put them in positive and negative buckets. And
honestly, if I'm doing that with someone who's,
you know, 15, 16, 17, 18,
they start struggling after, like, three or four.
Mhmm. Like, I have I have enough words
to say
happy,
joyful
Yeah. Which is kinda like happy Yeah. You
know? And and and then it's like, oh,
but but what else what else can I
feel that's even positive?
And just reminding them that, hey. Like, confident
is a feeling Mhmm. And that,
safe is a feeling that people would like,
giving them some of the that language and
helping
them understand what that feels like in their
body,
you know, what that experience is like to
feel confident and what it feels like to
be safe. And the same thing on the
negative stuff. Now people,
honestly, they usually have a little bit of
an easier time coming up with 10 negative
emotion words. Those are the ones where we
we notice them more because they are more
uncomfortable.
And as, you know so most people will
get to five, six, seven of those and
go, okay. Like, I'm I'm doing a lot
better. But even five, six, or seven, like,
there's a lot of emotions that Yeah. Are
out there that generally feel negative. So just
adding to their vocabulary,
adding to their understanding of of what those
emotions feel like and how they can, again,
navigate them in a way that lines up
with their values and that gets them to
to where they wanna be is
an essential part of the journey for them.
Yeah. And that's I see that's really important
where, like maybe a high school basketball player
when he's on the court playing, he feels
really happy when in reality that's confidence, you
know, he feels confident I'm actually doing something
I'm good at. And so I feel confident.
So helping them
identify that sort of like, it's very empowering
and they're like, I'm starting it helps them
understand their world a little bit better. So
as they, like, as they become more emotionally
literate, I mean, what does that do? Does
it just help them articulate
their situation better or do they suddenly does
this just kinda break things up psychologically in
their mind? Or
Yeah. What that does is, man, when I'm
not emotionally literate, when something comes up that
feels uncomfortable,
I'm gonna find a way to deal with
it. Mhmm. You know? That's where those some
of those numbing behaviors or distracting behaviors come
in. You know, whether
that's, with the ones we've mentioned, scrolling, video
games, pornography, whatever. I don't have to feel
that anymore.
But becoming more
emotionally literate allows you to then go, okay.
Actually, what do I need here? What am
I in need of? Because it's probably not
six hours of video games. It's probably not
staying in bed till noon scrolling
TikTok. Like, that's probably not what my body
and my soul, my spirit need at this
moment. So if I if we can help
them
understand and feel,
then they get to choose.
It gives them more choice in how to
approach that
and approaching it in a way I think,
you know, most kids, young adults,
would agree that they they don't want to
be on their phones all the time. They
don't wanna be but they don't really know
how else to handle it. So Mhmm. Once
they once they understand those feelings a little
bit better and they have some ways that
that they can approach those needs in different
ways. What I'm actually lacking right now is
not a whole bunch of time scrolling TikTok.
What I'm lacking right now is connection. Yeah.
And I need that because right now, I'm
I'm not feeling comfortable. I'm not feeling confident.
I'm feeling
alone. That's one of the ones that I
think
most parents would be
jumping all the way back to the beginning
of our conversation and those letters that I
would get from students at the beginning of
of the semester. I think lonely is probably
the word that came up the most as
how youth describe themselves today. Yeah.
And I think the natural inclination is to
tell tell the youth, well, you wouldn't be
so lonely if you didn't have that phone
out.
You know, put your dang phone away and
and, you know, like, we kinda come at
it from just this logical,
you're doing it to yourself kind of way.
Go call a friend. Go go outside and
play. Figure it out. Go go ride your
bikes. Yeah. You know, like, but it because,
you know, that that's just what we're used
to. But being able to have them understand,
hey. I'm I'm lonely, and what I need
is connection. And for me, connection looks like
this.
This is when I feel connection. Mhmm. So
that's what I need right now. I need
to go to mom and dad. I need
to go to
friends. I need to reach out to somebody
and let them know that I I need
that connection.
So let's pause on this journey is is
what we're talking about. We're sort of on
the the therapist
route or context.
Let's shift all the all we're talking about
into
a church leadership context, whether it's youth leaders,
bishop's office.
Like, they could be listening. It's like, great.
I can see the value in this, and
that's why, you know, they should maybe see
a therapist. But, I mean, why should they
care? What what can they they do with
this on Sundays or during the youth activity?
Man, I think that it would be awesome
for church leaders
to really find ways where they can invite
some of that feeling
into their weekly stuff, their their lessons, their
And we're big feeling people, but we usually
like and I I would call it a
spiritual bypass. Like, it's a spirit. You know?
The fruits of the spirit are and we
kinda if you're feeling somewhat positive, that means
it's the spirit moving on. Right? But Yeah.
There's maybe more to that. Yeah. I I
think, you know, something that that
I also like to do with clients, it
could be something that you do in Sunday
to start off a lesson is and I
think I've seen you do this, Kurt, is
laying down a whole bunch of different pictures
on the ground. The floor checks. Yeah. Doing
some doing some floor checks. So easy,
but gives people an opportunity to check-in and
be like, oh, man. Like, you could throw
a bunch of emojis on the ground and
go, okay. What emoji feels the most relatable
to you right now? Go stand by it,
then tell the person closest to you why
you chose that one. And it's so easy.
And it just invites feeling. It invites a
little bit of vulnerability,
and it allows the youth to practice safety
with themselves a little bit there. Right? And
and to know, hey, I can actually
tell someone that I'm sad, and they'll receive
it and probably
not, like, you know, hurt me or shame
me or anything like that. Like, they'll they'll
be there for me, and it's a powerful
thing. And that's so easy to do. Yeah.
The floor check is especially, I've used this
with youth audiences.
Like, they can't help but talk. I mean,
can you imagine, like, a tactic that would
almost force you to to talk in a
good way. Right? And I'll plug, like, a
a really simple way to do this in
our context is I went to the distribution
center. You can get the I think it's
called the gospel lie gospel art library or
something. It's the book. It has all the
pictures of the old testament, new testament, book
of Mormon. It's all there. I think it's
spiral bound, but I just I bought that.
It's, like, 5 to $10 or something. I
took off the the
spine, just cut it off, and now I
have all these pictures of scripture stories.
And you lay those out
and you say, you know, maybe go stand
by the picture
that,
most misrepresents your week. Right? And, man, it's
amazing where they stand and just how vulnerable
they get so quick. Anyways, I I need
to do an episode with you and your
team
of all these different like, some
sort of beginning
beginning kit of
of some of these activities because they're so
effective, and they're so simple. Like, crazy simple
to do, and they're really effective. Yeah. It's
it's awesome. And, again, really, you're just looking
for an opportunity to let youth feel those
things for themselves,
but then, like, bonus points if you also
can help them express it. Right? If you
can help them to to say it out
loud and share it with someone
because then, again, they get to experience that
authenticity,
that vulnerability that's there, and then they also,
you know, fingers crossed, I think you can
you can help manage the experience a little
bit, but you want them to experience some
safety there too and making sure that,
like, help your youth understand what it looks
like to receive someone's emotions
Mhmm. When they're sharing them vulnerably
vulnerably
and, you know, how we can show up
for each other in that way. Yeah. And
so it sounds like you're just creating space
of
maybe sort of just checking in with those
in the class or those that you're leading.
Like, what are you feeling right now? Like,
did you get in a fight with your
mom that you don't wanna be here and
here you are and you're, you know, just
not willing to talk about it or, like
and just being willing to create hold space
for that, right, of being okay. Because, like,
when you
mentioned someone will tell you they're lonely, you
don't immediately jump to, like, well, let's look
in your, you know, contact list. Let's find
five friends you could call. Right? Like but
you're just taking more to be okay. Like,
well, in this office, you can be lonely,
and I'll and I'll just be here in
your loneliness with you, and let's explore that.
Right? Absolutely. I think that's where a lot
of shame comes from is when we're feeling
something like lonely and
the voice in our head, that inner critic
voice says, hey. Well, if you're lonely, just
figure it out. Do something different. You know?
The way you're doing things is wrong if
you're feeling lonely. And, like, what if that's
not the case? What if you're actually just
allowed to feel lonely sometimes? Yeah. And and,
like, what a game changer that is to
just be like, oh,
I'm okay to be sad. I'm okay to
feel betrayed.
I'm okay
to to be lonely and not have to
fix it immediately,
but to feel it enough to know this
is how I can fix it. Yeah. Right?
And so being able to to facilitate that
in in a Sunday setting is challenging and
it can be a little bit harder with
a group. Right? I'm doing a lot of
stuff one on one right now, but having
a group just also also just allows for
some additional magic to happen too if you
can just invite that in. And I know
that as leaders, we jump in and it's
like, hey. I prepared this lesson and, like,
trust me. I I have seven years
of teaching
20 lessons a week, probably, something like that,
15 lessons a week,
and not ever getting to the end of
the lesson. Right. Like, I would prepare every
lesson knowing
that I am going to
get to
anywhere from a third to half of that
lesson.
And so
we do the good stuff,
and then we bring that lesson in and
and have that lesson be more applicable now
rather than just this is the lesson I
prepared, and I'm so desperate to share it
with you. It becomes,
oh, we have people in here who are
feeling
lonely, who are feeling
stressed, who are feeling
happy. Like, how do we bring this lesson
in and have it actually
be meaningful for them? Mhmm. You know? And
that's when you get to pick, like, hey.
This third of the of the lesson that
I prepared
is the the third that my class needs
right now. Yeah. And I don't have to
get to everything.
They'll they'll get it all because, like you
said earlier,
they've got bishops, they have youth leaders, they
have parents, they have seminary teachers. Like, we're
all teaming up on this thing. If they
don't get the whole lesson on Sunday,
then,
you know, they'll get part of it in
seminary. They'll get part of it from other
places, and it'll be okay. And where my
mind goes, this may sound too abstract, and
I don't mean it that way. But oftentimes,
we,
as teachers or if we're engaging with youth,
you know, since we're in that context,
we come in with data points. Like,
whether it's, you know, we're we're in the
doctrine and covenants right now,
whether it's the translation process or this date
in this location. And
and our goal is to get to the
feeling point because
there's a change agent there, which is the
spirit. Right?
And so if I think if we just
sort of surrender that at times and just
saying, like, where's people at? And maybe I'll
put the data over here if I need
it. Like but if we can get them
a place of of feeling something,
like, the spirit will teach them all the
data points at some point in their life
of those things and that those are important
for context and to some extent. But and
I think that's kind of the theme we're
going with with this so far is this
concept of feelings that I mean, that's
why we have the fruits of the spirit,
you know, that there's it's important to tap
into those. So Yeah. And that just I
mean, that reminds you of an experience that
I just had relatively recently with my kids
at home. I'm trying to be a better
seminary teacher at home now that I'm not
doing it full time. A lot of people
assume that seminary teachers are great at come
follow me, but,
come to my house. I will prove you
otherwise.
And so we've wrestled with it. It's hard,
you know, trying to figure out the right
timing, all this stuff. But anyway, earlier this
year, as we're jumping into doctrine and covenants,
which for me as a seminary teacher has
been the hardest like, that that's kinda the
hardest chunk of scripture to teach, honestly. Mhmm.
If I mean, other people
would say otherwise, and that's fine. But this
one's hard. And because there is so much
content, you kinda get lost in all the
details. At least I I felt like that
way sometimes.
Earlier in probably January when we were talking
about Martin Harris and then the, you know,
the 16
pages
that were lost. I feel like you can
get into so much cool stuff about, you
know, here's what happened and here's why they
were lost. And here's Joseph asking a bunch
of times and and all the things and
where did those 16
pages go? And here's how Nephi actually kinda
like you know, this thing happened with Nephi
where he actually kinda copied a lot of
what was on there into his version. And
so, like, we didn't really meant you know,
there's tons of details.
And I just wanted to slow down with
my my kids on that. And we read
doctrine and covenants section three where
God is addressing Martin and
Joseph,
and all we looked for was,
what does this help us understand and learn
about God? Mhmm. Like, that's it. Yeah. You
know, all the details, all the dates,
this is how it happened, who took them,
what happened, you know, like all the
Yeah. The conspiracy.
It's fine. Like and and that's I I
feel like we just get lost, but it
was so cool to hear my kids express,
like, oh, man. Like, God loves second chances.
Mhmm. Like, that's what I want my kids
to know. I want them to know that
much more than where are these 16 pages
now. I want them to know that God
loves second chances. I want them to know
that God is understanding of, like, where we're
at and, like, he's willing to teach us
and willing to help us get better. And,
like, that's the kind of stuff when we're
just willing to feel
and concentrate on that part of things. I
I think just man, I think connection can
happen a lot more between us and God.
Yeah. That's powerful.
Something changed for you. Right? Like, what unpack
that for us.
Man, a lot of things have have changed
for me, and I I think that this
was all part of what led me from
seminary teacher into therapy.
But I feel like the way that I
approach the gospel has changed significantly
over the last
the last five to seven years of of
my life.
You know? And, again, this might feel like
kind of a shift, but stick with it,
and we'll we'll get back to how this
ties in with everything else. But growing up,
I put a lot of stock into all
the
checkbox things. Right? I wasn't even all that
great at them, but I knew they were
super important. Right? And whenever I was falling
short or perceived that I might be falling
short or I was frustrated with, you know,
not having answers to my prayers,
it always came back to, well, if you
followed the formula
Mhmm. Then it would be working better. Right?
If you were in your scriptures every day,
if you were praying every day, it would
work better.
And so the checkbox things for me just
became like, this is how I know I'm
doing the gospel well,
and this is how, you know, god's gonna
be proud of me and all the things.
And so,
man,
I would bargain a lot with God, and
I would, you know, just man, it's it's
a way that, honestly, shame was able to
invite itself into my life and
talk to me a lot about where I
was falling short, and and
it just made the gospel
kind of a miserable
experience in some ways.
Mhmm. But then
I had never planned on becoming a seminary
teacher. But when I got there, it was
like, hey. I won. Like You did it.
Like, I did it. This is now I'm
doing all the things. Like, it's my literal
job
to do the gospel things. Uh-huh.
Full time, like, forty hours a week, I'm
studying my scriptures. I'm saying so many prayers
a day, it's, like, goofy. Right? Like, it
it's man, I won. I I got the
ultimate,
like, poser prize
of
now I'm doing everything. Big fat star on
your forehead. Just Yeah. Yeah. And so God's
gonna be proud of me, and I'm gonna
feel different and all this stuff.
And it it didn't change things for me.
I thought, man, now I'm really gonna be
able to be
close with God, and now I'm gonna you
know? And and so it kinda hurt even
more to be like, man, now I'm doing
all the stuff. I'm following all the formulas
for forty hours a week or more. Right?
And it's still not working.
And I think something shifted in me a
little bit when COVID nineteen happened
back in 2020. That was a crazy time
to be a seminary teacher. I bet. Yeah.
One Friday, we're at school. The next week,
we are all online and teaching on Zoom,
and I didn't know what Zoom was before
then. You know, all this stuff. Yeah. And
I I got home
and when I was in seminary teacher mode,
I'm like, hey, man. Like, I'm I'm doing
again, I'm doing all the checklist stuff. I'm
reading the conference talks. I'm
kneeling and praying, and I'm doing all this
stuff. And and I would even look at
people around me and be like, man, you
know, I wish that they were doing more
of this stuff. Yeah. And It's so easy.
Just to
I hate admitting that I even
felt that way toward my wife sometimes. So
I'd be like, hey. Like, I'm I'm doing
all the all the things, and, like, I
don't see you doing as many things.
And, like,
I know that saying that out loud, everyone
listening to this is like, well, what a
jerk.
And
you would be right. That's fine.
I'll take that on. But I I think
coming home
and being at home,
like, literally from March to, like,
July, August of that year
was super eye opening for me
because
what I saw was me doing all the
things
and not having it strengthen my relationship with
god,
And I saw my wife not doing all
the things how I thought she should be
doing them
and walking her life with god in
a so much more effective way than I
was,
where she would turn to him
often throughout the day
and rely on him and be in constant
communication with him and
guess how many conference talks she read? Like,
none.
And and yet I was like, why why
is she better at this than me? Like,
this is you know, it kinda rocked my
world and, again, invited Shane in there. Like,
you you should be better. You gotta keep
up. You gotta and I'm like, crap. Like,
I'm already doing all the things, and it's
not working. And so, like, man, how much
more can I even do? I'm a seminary
teacher.
And
it just, like, I had to pause. I
had to figure that out because that was
something that was really, really messing with me.
And so
there were a lot of things that helped
me start to figure that out.
I think
experiencing Warrior Heart, which I know is if
people have listened to to your podcast, they
know about Warrior Heart.
Experiencing that just helped me to
just actually invite more authenticity
into the relationship that I had with god.
That, again, going back to what we're talking
about with youth, that I'm allowed to feel
feelings with God. I don't have to pray
and have it sound perfect and have it
sound
like everything's great all the time because sometimes
things aren't great. Mhmm. And I can go
to God and say, hey, God. Like, I'm
mad.
Hey, God. Like, this hurts. Mhmm. It hurts
that you're not answering me the way that
I want. Like, can we figure this out?
You know? And that that kinda conversation was
something that I'd never had with God
even,
you know, through thirty something years of my
life. It was like, man, like, this was
a new thing for me to just be
able to, like, break those walls down
and
start to trust him
with my real self.
And it's scary. That's a vulnerable thing to
do Mhmm.
Because
what if I do that and it still
feels the same? Mhmm. Right? And it still
feels
not
as authentic, not not as
I don't know. What if it lets me
down? What if he lets me down? Mhmm.
And so it was scary, but but being
able to jump into
that
has just changed things
immensely.
Some of the things that
that I changed were just, man, like,
I think just letting
God love all of me. Mhmm. Even the
parts that felt broken
was important for me. Something that helped me
with that, actually, that I mean, I was
worship music Mhmm. That just, like, fills your
soul with how God feels about you. Yeah.
And that that, you know, I started to
really dive into studying grace and wanting to
understand more about who Jesus Christ is on
that front. I think I love I feel
over the the last four or five years,
we've heard that a lot more from the
general church Mhmm. Just helping us understand grace
better and understanding how much we need it.
But just allowing that to be a part
of my my journey
was amazing. You know? And just kinda testing
God, not in
that that might sound sound bad, but testing
him in that, hey. Like, God, I feel
like you're inviting me to take a big
jump right here, and, like, I'm terrified.
Mhmm. I'm scared.
Right? My wife and I
felt that as we approached foster care Mhmm.
You know, a few years ago. It's like
felt like God was inviting us into foster
care,
and that journey we already had four kids.
Like, our our house is nuts, man. Like,
it's
on the outside, that that doesn't make a
lot of sense. But being able to
just being able to say, hey, God. Like,
we're scared to death.
Will you catch us if we jump here?
Mhmm. And
And you're still alive. And him and him
responding,
you'll never know unless you jump. Yeah. You
know? Like like, that's the thing is, like,
I really have come to know that that
god's not going to
he's not gonna
he's not gonna always give us the reassurance
that we want because he wants to see
us jump. He doesn't wanna direct every little
thing. He wants to see us jump, and
then he wants to show us how he
can show up for us. Mhmm. And the
way that he showed up for my family
is, you know, a beautiful four year old
boy that we have now that, you know,
is part of our family. And so now
we have five crazy kids, and
and has it been super hard?
Yeah. Is there a reason that it was
super scary? Yeah. And now I know more
about God. And so that continues to change
my relationship with him and change the conversations
that I'm having with him.
And
just so many things like that, jumping, you
know, jumping from seminary to therapy,
those are hard things to just trust and
and fall into God with. And that's you
know, I I think I wanna help people
experience that. Yeah. To change it from a
relationship of transaction,
a relationship that's driven by shame,
to something that
actually allows for
relationship with with God and Jesus Christ. And
as we experience that relationship with God and
Jesus Christ, the healing that can come from
that as we see who and how they
really are. Yeah. So what I'm hearing is,
like, there's sort of this moment
where
we have to step into a space of
surrender
and just say, oh, it turns out I
can't control it all with my habits and
routines and behaviors.
Though, you know, at the core, those things
are beautiful
things. And that pivot point into surrender is
often just sort of sitting with this concept
of how do I feel? Like, what emotions
are common in my life experience and why?
And often that leads to
some maybe deeper pain
or or shame. Right? And that that pivots
maybe someone into a a place of surrender.
And it's interesting. This is this been in
my life experience, and this sounds like it's
what you're articulating. When you're in this when
you're in a cadence of surrender, an invitation
usually comes to the surface. An invitation that
seems crazy, that seems risky,
and god wants you to step into that
because that stimulates that relationship between him and
you.
And he's got you in a state of
surrender, which he has so he has a
lot to work with.
And then sanctification
comes. And it's just and it it's beautiful
how that that happens. And through that sanctification
often, healing takes place. And that's really
I mean, let's hear what we're trying to
do in mortality is heal and progress and
become more like him, and that's a crucial
thing. So I appreciate how you articulated it
just that
because we often think, oh, feel your feelings
okay and, you know, trust god, have faith.
Okay. But,
you know, in that order and it sort
of makes it more,
pragmatic
with people that actually do that. Yeah. And
I I think it
it can help you just get away from
the formulaic
part of it. Right? Right? Like because, man,
if I'm
if I'm not getting answers to my prayers,
again,
shame comes in and says, hey. Well, just
because you're doing it wrong. Like, you're, you
know, you're not worthy or you're broken or
whatever.
And so you go back to the formulas
of, okay. Like, I have to make sure
I'm saying enough prayers of gratitude, and I,
you know, I have to make sure that
I'm is there anything that I need to
tell my bishop about that I haven't repented
about? Mhmm. You know, and all the all
the pieces have to be in place.
And I think,
like, all those are again, I'm not saying
that we should throw out all the stuff
and not do the things. But
Well, and that's the paradox. Right? Is that
and I hate to frame it that you
do the things more than ever in that
state, but it's you do the things in
a different place
because the things are important. The behaviors are
important,
but you have to be in kinda that
right state, right, to do those those things.
Yeah. Yeah. And when it's driven by, hey.
You're you're not doing this well enough or
I would answer your prayer if you were
different. Like, that's just not how God works.
Yeah. Like, it just can't be how God
works.
I've come to settle in a place where
when I'm not receiving answers to prayers, it's
likely because God just loves me and trusts
me and that he's he's ready for for
whatever
that journey looks like. And so
I feel like if we change our prayers
even a little bit, we're able to come
at them in a in a way where,
like, God almost has to answer our prayers
in that I'm going from I'll just use
this example because it's one that I experienced
a hundred times or more over the last
seven years of of teaching seminary.
Seniors would come up to me as they're
getting close to the end of their senior
year, you know, about this time in the
year where they're trying to figure out college
and missions and all the next things, and
they go, man, like, I'm I have two
or three options for college, and god's not
answering.
He's not telling me things. So what am
I doing wrong?
I'm like, well,
probably nothing. Like, he asked you to ask
him, and you're asking him, so you're not
doing anything wrong. What if he just wants
you to choose? And if you
instead make that choice and then
just invite him into that choice,
it's different. Right?
Your prayer changes from tell me what college
to go to, tell me what university to
go to, tell me whether I need to
go on a mission to,
god, this is this is what I'm feeling.
Again, going back to our feelings. This is
what I'm feeling right now.
This is the choice that that's leading me
to.
Will you just walk this with me? Mhmm.
Will you keep me safe? Will you help
me meet the people I need to meet?
Will you help me be the person that
I wanna be? And, like, is god ever
gonna not answer that prayer? Like like, he's
Yeah. He's gonna answer that prayer, like, a
% of the time. I'm pretty confident in
saying that, which, you know, we're not a
% confident in god's answers to prayers a
lot. But if we can change it, I
think we can be way more confident
in his answers to prayers because we're we're
just inviting him to be
a part of our story. All the pieces
all the parts of our story,
we're inviting him in and and letting him
be Yeah. That's really helpful, that example. Are
there any other touch points with that that
youth experience or as we discuss these principles
that would be with worth mentioning? Or
Again, I think just inviting as much authenticity
as we can into that relationship with him.
And I think as whether you are listening
to this and you're you're a parent, you're
a leader,
whoever you are,
I think modeling that authenticity is super important.
Mhmm.
Something that that we, like,
we try to show our kids when we're
in the struggle and especially when we're in
the struggle with God. And, like, this is
what it looks like, and this is what
it sounds like, and this is what it
feels like. It feels heavy and it feels,
like, wrestling. And and so, man, when we
have hard conversations or hard things that we're
approaching as a family, like,
we don't do that behind closed doors. You
know? I I want my kids to see
that we're allowed to cry to God and
Yeah. Let them know how it feels. And
we're allowed to be scared about the next
steps and
be terrified of them as I've you know,
a career change when you have five kids
is scary. Mhmm. And my kids know every
step of the way what that's been like.
Mhmm. You know? As I've made that transition
and I've I've been, you know, meeting with
more and more people, I go home and
my twelve year old asks me almost every
day, how many clients did you see today,
dad? How many people are you helping? And,
you know, it went it's gone from
two or three at the beginning of the
journey to, you know, six or seven every
day, and and it's so cool. And and
he he lights up and is is excited.
Like, you know, sometimes
at the beginning of that journey, I'd get
home and he'd say, how many people did
you see? And I'm, hey. Just just one
today, bud. And it's hard. And I'm scared.
I'm scared, you know Yeah. That this isn't
gonna work. And
I hate that you're asking me this question
every day,
but I'm gonna show up in that because
I want you to see that Yeah. That
this is hard and scary, and and I'm
just I'm real. Like Yeah. Like, you're real.
And, like, that way when you have your
thing
that you're walking into that's scary,
you feel like you can come to me
about it, and I'm gonna let you be
real with it. And and we can involve
God in the authenticity of it. Yeah. Yeah.
I appreciate that. And I think of, like,
you hear certain people describe their childhood of,
like, we were poor, but I never knew
I was poor, which, obviously, there's some good
things of that of, you know, there's more
than money that makes happiness. And when somebody
raises a child and then they don't know
they're poor, but they're still happy, that's a
beautiful thing. But at the same time,
sometimes
we we don't want our children to be
aware of the struggles of mortality.
And, of course, in all things, there's
extremes that are unhealthy to take them to.
But to invite the your whole family into
something like that,
that goes a long way when they then
what they it's less you know, when they
they grow up and suddenly they're facing similar
problems, they don't think, oh, I think I
broke it. Like, mom and dad didn't have
this problem or something. You know? Yeah. And
it really and and just help them witness
the wrestle and then be a part of
the wrestle and and witness the miracles. And
then the miracles are more obvious with that
contrast. You know? So And, honestly, that's what
a lot of the college age kids that
I meet with are wrestling with. They're, like,
20 years old, and they're like, why don't
I have everything figured out? Yeah. And I'm
like, you're 20.
Like like,
you need space for this. Like like, I'm
I'm
in the midst of a career change at
37.
Like, it's okay to not have it all
figured out at 20.
And because they've never seen the wrestle, they've
never seen the struggle,
they just figure, hey. My parents have had
it all figured out my whole life. And
so before I can
jump into a major or jump into a
career or jump into a relationship
or have children,
I have to have everything figured out where
I I think, man, like,
again, the more authenticity
we invite into that, the more we're inviting
shame to not be a part of that.
Yeah. Yeah. That's really inviting that to leave.
And I think, you know, in a going
back to that, like, a youth church setting
of having the leader again, this isn't about,
like, just bearing all your dirty laundry and
all the ugly dynamics, but for a youth
leader to say something, you know, the adult
youth leader, you know, I'm
my son's
away at college. I'm this weekend, I'm just
feeling really nervous about him and, you know,
he's not in the church or, you know,
I don't I pray for him, but I
just constantly worry that I'm gonna get that
phone call or, you know and so if
you if you all just pray for me,
I'm just sort of sitting in that. I'm
feeling that. Right? And that's okay. You know?
Yeah. Just feel it. Yeah. Totally okay. Right?
Like, there's
and, man, like, if we're not doing this
whole gospel thing for that,
then what are we doing it for? Yeah.
Right? Like like, that's where we need God
to show up. That's when we need God
to show up, and that's that's his whole
his whole thing. Like and so if we're
gonna pretend that we don't need it and
just to, you know like, we're kind of
inviting him not to be a part of
it Mhmm. Which, man, like, that's that's not
how I wanna that's not how I wanna
walk that thing Yeah. For sure. If somebody
wants
to learn more about you and and check
out what what you do and how you
help youth, where did you send them?
Yeah.
So I work
in Sandy, Utah at clinic called Accepted.
So you can find me there. The easiest
way to reach me
would be bradon jensen dot com.
We can probably Yeah. We'll link you. Get
you a link and and have you figure
it out. You can like, my phone number
is there. My contact info is there. Like,
you can get me there. You're welcome to
follow me on on Instagram. Yeah. You're active
on Instagram. I try to be I I
I go in waves, of being active on
Instagram,
but,
I try to be there and I I'd
love for you to follow me and and
I I share as as much as I
can there, but I also have a lot
of people reach out to me through Instagram
and say, hey. Like, this sounds awesome.
Please. I want more.
So you're welcome to reach out to me
there as well, and that that'd be great.
Yeah. That's how you can reach me. Well,
Brandon, this has been awesome. Any other point
principles, concept, story?
I feel pretty good about it. I think
just one of the I was giving a
talk
probably last year in my ward and just
had a thought come to me that's been
one of the my favorite things that I've
just kinda clung onto to help me continue
forward in this and not fall back into
those, you know, the shame inviting and then
the checkbox
checking
pattern. And that's
man, I feel like 95%
of what I know about heavenly father and
Jesus Christ,
I've learned in the last five years of
my life.
And before, that would maybe make me really
discouraged. Like, what on earth am I doing
for the first thirty something years of my
life where I I'm not learning about him?
But, really, that just gives me a ton
of hope because if I project that forward,
hopefully,
in five years from now,
what I know now about
God is only 5% of what I know
in five years, you know. And I and
I just want to continue to
experience him and his fullness and his,
you know, how he shows up and and
who he is and how he is. Like,
I wanna just continue
peeling back all the layers of that relationship
and allowing that to change me as I
go. And so I'm okay
that 95% of what I've learned about God
has happened in the last five years because
that means in the next five years, I
get to repeat that and do it again.
That concludes this episode of the Leading Saints
podcast. Hey. Listen. Would you do me a
favor? You know, everybody's got that friend who
listens to a ton of podcasts, and maybe
they aren't aware of Leading Saints. So would
you mind taking the link of this episode
or another episode of Leading Saints and just
texting it to that friend? You know who
I'm talking about, the friend who always listens
to podcasts and is always telling you about
different podcasts. Well, it's your turn to tell
that friend about Leading Saints.
So share it. We'd also love to hear
from you. If you have any perspective or
thought on this episode, you can go to
leadingsaints.org
and actually leave a comment on the, episode
page, or reach out to us at leading
saints dot org slash contact.
Remember, the Jody Moore presentation about youth and
mental health is waiting for you at leading
saints dot org slash fourteen.
It came as a result of the position
of leadership which was imposed upon us
by the God of heaven who brought forth
a restoration
of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
When the declaration
was made concerning the only
true and living Church upon the face of
the earth,
we were immediately put in a position of
loneliness,
the loneliness of leadership
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,
and to which we must face up with
boldness and courage
and ability.