Have you ever had a loved one leave
the church and your relationship
becomes awkward?
This is so common and so sad.
I got the chance to interview the Packard
family who have been down this road. Cindy
and Blair Packard are Orthodox believing parents and
Josh, their son, and his wife have left
the church.
We came together to discuss their journey and
it was amazing
what they taught. They talked about the communications
they regretted and how other siblings responded in
positive and negative ways. They learned how to
pick up the pieces again, express love, carry
on, and build a beautiful relationship.
This has become a favorite in the Questioning
Saints virtual library.
You can actually gain access to this interview
at leadingsaints.org/fourteen.
This will give you fourteen days to watch
the Packard's interview and many others related to
helping individuals
who begin to question their faith.
Go to leadingsafes.org/14
and get access now.
So my name is Kurt Frankem, and I
am the founder and executive director of Leading
Saints and, obviously, the host of the Leading
Saints podcast. Now I started Leading Saints back
in 02/2010. It was just a hobby blog
and it grew from there. By the time,
02/2014
came around, we started the podcast and that's
really when it got some,
traction and took off, 02/2016.
We became a five zero one c three
nonprofit organization, and we've been growing ever since.
And now I get the opportunity
of interviewing and talking with remarkable people all
over the world. Now this is a segment
we do on the Leading Saints podcast called
How I Lead, and we reach out to
everyday leaders. They're not experts, gurus, authors,
PhDs. They're just everyday leaders who've been asked
to serve in a specific leadership calling, and
we simply ask them, how is it that
you lead? And they go through some remarkable
principles that should be in a book, that
should be behind a PhD. They're usually that
good, and, we just talk about, sharing what
the other guy is doing. And I remember
being a leader just simply wanting to know,
okay. I know what I'm trying to do,
but what's the other guy doing? What's working
for him? And so that's why every Wednesday
or so, we publish these how I lead
segments
to share.
Hello, and welcome to this episode of Leading
Saints Today. I'm welcoming in Christy Wilwright Taylor
who, wrote this book,
Prepare Me for Thy Use. This is all
about the mission years of Wilford
Woodruff.
As you know, there is a phenomenal
organization called the Wilford Woodruff Papers who are
taking all things Wilford Woodruff. Everything he wrote,
received, sent, mailed, all of it, just like,
you know, the Joseph Smith papers project,
and they're compiling it. They're making it, searchable,
and and so you can really dive into
these,
points of history. And part of that are
books like this that Christie,
so awesomely wrote, and it's published by Deseret
Book, and you can find it there. And
so I wanna bring Christy in. Of course,
I love all things Wilford Woodruff. I actually
interviewed her dad, Steven,
Will Wright, and so we'll link to that.
We tell some great leadership stories,
from the life of Wilford Woodruff.
And so,
we we definitely talk about Wilford Woodruff here.
This is kind of a bipolar
episode, and that's my fault. Sometimes I wanna
talk about Wilford Woodruff, and then Christy does
a great job weaving in some Wilford Woodruff
stories into her leadership journey as a stake
relief society president. And that was, I mean,
that's worth a listen itself,
how she leads in Texas as a stake
relief society president. And,
just some, I mean, we, we get into,
you know, talking to women about garments and
temple recommends and talking about the tough issues
in relief society and and why we should
do that rather than just avoid it. And
so really, really inspiring stuff. You're gonna love
it. Here's my interview
with Christy Wilwright Taylor.
Alright. Christy Taylor, welcome to the Leading Saints
podcast. Thank you. I'm glad to be here.
Now you're, I have your book here that
you sent me. Preparing Me or Prepare
Me for Thy Use,
Lessons from Wilford Woodruff's
Mission Years. And,
your maiden name is Will Wright, and I
actually interviewed your dad, Stephen Will Wright, about
Wilford Woodruff as well. That's right. And, I
guess,
what what's the connection to your family in
Wilford Woodruff?
Well,
I mean, I'm not a I am not
in Utah. I'm in Texas, but my parents
are in Utah now, and so my dad.
The Wolford order of papers started five years
ago, and my dad started to get involved
at the beginning.
And so he was kinda pushing me
from his end to get involved as well.
And then our bishop here in Texas,
he and his brother were involved, so I
got I was I was getting some pressure
from both sides.
So I joined the project at its at
the beginning, five years ago, and, my dad
and I have both been on it ever
since. He said he was only gonna be
on it for six months. But
Yeah. Yeah. So I think most people are
familiar with the Joseph Smith papers, obviously, basically
taking
everything that Joseph Smith touched or wrote at,
and, you know,
organizing in a way that can be studied.
Yep. And the same thing is being done
through the Wilford Woodruff
papers. Right? That's right. So, yeah, the Joseph
Smith papers are obviously the gold standard of,
you know, church historical documents like that. But,
Wilford Woodruff, he's got about we've got about
45,000
pages on the website. You can see them
all on gopherwoodruffpapers.org,
and they're all searchable by
people and places. And it's your the people
are linked to FamilySearch, and you can
find your own relatives,
and you can search by topic and
scripture reference and all sorts of things. It's
really great.
Because he really was the gold standard for
journal keeping. Is that right? Absolutely. I mean,
he had 31
journals and daybooks. He kept records for about
sixty four years.
He's got about 30,000
letters sent and received.
Wow. Yeah. And I was, just reading in
the introduction.
Let's see. He was born in eighteen o
seven. '18 o '7 and he died in
1898.
So he really
his span
really was the all of early church history.
Yeah. And it just made me think, like,
oh, he was just about the age of
of Joseph Smith. And so if Joseph Smith
would have lived his full life, you know,
he would have maybe died around the same
time that Wilford Woodruff died. Yeah. And so
that's a lot a lot happened during those
years. It's a lot of years. Yeah. Yeah.
And I mean Wilford wrote a lot, but
it wasn't really about him. It was about
everything. I mean, he really cataloged just everything.
Yeah. It's good stuff. And, so this is
this book obviously about the lessons from Wilfred
Woodruff mission years is are should we expect
more and more of these types of books
coming out?
I I don't I don't know about that.
You don't have to write them all, but,
you know. But, yeah, this is his he
served about seven missions in his first twelve
years,
before they
the Saints headed west.
So this is yeah. There's a lot of
England in here and the United Brethren and
all the discipleship
that he learned, you know, in in training
for his tenure as president
during these mission years.
So was there anything specific that led to
a book specifically about the mission years? Or
my my dad
I helped my dad prepare a a conference
talk for Wilfrid Ordiff,
conference that we did a couple of years
ago,
about
lessons in leadership, and that's what he talked
about on your podcast when he was on.
And,
then I helped him write the article for
Meridian Magazine, and that's on our website as
well. And he kept saying stuff like, somebody
should really write a book about this. And
I was like, who are you talking to,
dad?
Yeah. So now there's a book.
That's cool. And you're just trying to highlight
as many of the fascinating stories from his
his missionaries. Yeah. And if you read the
book, it's mostly his words. There's a lot
of his he's a great storyteller, very colorful,
funny,
really engaging. So it's it's a lot in
his words.
Yeah. That's awesome. Kind of an adventure story.
And this is published by Deseret Book, and
so it is for a general audience. Right?
It's not just for Yeah. Geeky story. Center
and Deseret Book. So, yeah, I think anybody
it's not just for grand grandmas,
or academics.
Yeah. Yeah. And it'll be out on, May
12.
Awesome. Very good. Well, well, I definitely have
to explore various ways we can continue to
to talk about, Wilfred Woodrow's life and show
the stories, but obviously, you know, there's so
many that the book is a good place
to go and to check out.
But I also wanna invite you on to,
talk about some of your time as you're
currently serving as a stake relief society president.
That is correct. Here in Texas North I'm
in North Fort Worth. Yeah.
Great. And is there a story behind you
being called this to that to that role?
I was released site president in our ward,
and got, you know,
borrowed from The ward. Into the stake
about two years ago.
Nice. And, do you do you remember anything
from the beginning of that, like, just getting
started in that role? I mean, sometimes we
have these preconceived
notions as far as what a stake, you
know, stake leadership is like and what you
do. But, what do you remember about just
getting started? People live in fear of the
stake calling. Right?
Yeah.
But,
I remember being a little overwhelmed,
but we've got a great state president,
really supportive especially of the women. And,
my sister's also a state courtly side president
and one of my best friends, and so
I had some I had some help.
Yeah. Love it. So when you say your
state president is supportive, I mean, what does
that look like?
He's well, he's always available to talk things
through, and
he's,
very
he's very interested in what
I have to say in the women leaders,
so the Stake Young Women's Stake Primary and
Stake Relief Society.
He gets us really involved in all the
decision making and the meetings, and
we really feel like we have a voice.
And
if we wanna
enact some change, you know, you open up
the handbook. And if it doesn't say it
in the handbook, then we run with it.
Nice. Love it. Is there anything specific as
far as, like, change or adjustments you've made
that, stand out over others?
Well, we don't do stake high council speaking
Sundays anymore. We do stake leadership Sundays. So
Okay. We travel with the high councilors to
speak,
and we've
trade off who speaks last so that it's
not always the, you know, the high councilor
speaking last.
And I think that kind of visibility
is
great, and I think, the sisters in the
stake appreciate seeing the sister leaders
up there,
getting to know us better. Yeah. That's awesome.
That's great.
And then how would you just describe the
the church in in that area? What's the
stake like as far as the the geographics
of it and the different demographics? And we've
got 10 wards in our stake.
We
go about
thirty minutes either direction from where I am.
So it's not I mean, it's not
Utah, but it's not terrible.
So we can get around to all of
our wards and it's you know, there are
there are a lot of Texans and a
lot of Utahans really is probably the makeup
of our
people.
Lot of families
and,
just growing really fast. I mean, we've got
a temple going up in South Fort Worth
and,
hopefully, another one in McKinney coming soon. So
that'll be three in the area.
Wow. Yeah. So will it be just a
a short ten, fifteen minute drive?
No. Sadly, no. It'll still be about forty
five minutes. Yeah. Okay. That's doable. Right?
Awesome. Then maybe just talk to me about
the, like, getting around to the different 10
wards. Is that do you have a a
routine? Is that something you do try and
make visits there? Or what how do you
engage with the wards? Yes. We're on a
constant rotation. So I'd say,
you know, part of the our
I I talked to my presidency about, like,
you know, what do what do we even
do? Like, remind me what we do. It's
a good place to start.
And, you know, we really are want to
minister to the leaders to and the Relief
Society
presidencies. So we are just on a constant
rotation of visiting
these wards. So we've got
four buildings
in our stake. Two of them are, like,
quote unquote owned by our stake. So we've
got,
we can hit
three wards in a Sunday.
Mhmm. We have one building that has four
wards, but I've never made it to four
wards in a row. That's just that's like
one of them I can handle.
But we really are on a constant rotation
to just
be in as many war as war as
in as many wards as we can all
the time. And we feel like
we've made it when they stop introducing us
as a visitor in their ward, you know.
Yeah. That's that's when we know that they're
comfortable with us coming. Because we want them
to feel like
we're there we're not there to babysit them
or to check up on them, but we're
there to support them.
And if they get to know us, the
presidencies get to know us, and the sisters,
then they're gonna be a lot more comfortable
coming to us with questions and,
you know, help letting us help them when
they're stuck or
need support or we try to tell them
that we're their we wanna be their biggest
cheerleaders.
But to do that you just have to
be everywhere all the time.
Yeah. And then as you show up in
an award, is there a certain game plan
or something you try to accomplish? Is it
mainly just being present, being their cheerleader? Do
you try and meet with them after? Well,
if we're doing a word conference, yeah, we
meet with them after.
But if we're just there on a regular
Sunday, we just wanna visit.
And it's a great way to see kinda
what their strengths and weaknesses are, and it
gives us a good picture of
the pattern
of the, you know, the health of the
spiritual health of the sisters and the wards
across the stake.
And when we go to all of these
wards, we can really see that pattern, and
I think that helps the all of the
relief sided presidencies
to know that, you know, they're not alone.
They're not the only one with this problem.
Or let me tell you what this other
ward is doing. Maybe this will help you,
give you some ideas of, you know, how
you can
come get over this hurdle that you're facing,
that kind of thing. And you just you
don't know their strengths and weaknesses and their
needs unless
you're always there.
Yeah. And this may be may be too
on the spot of a question to just
spring this on you, but let's see where
it goes.
Do do you tend to get sense, like,
what are what are the different reliefsiding presence
struggling with in their their role? Like, what
are the issues that seem to come to
the surface? Does anything come to mind?
Well, we've got some issues with Unity.
They want their sisters to feel more like
a, you know, a ward family. And part
of that is because our ward we changed
our stake boundaries about eight eight or ten
months ago.
So some wards are still feeling that.
So we talk about that a lot. I
mean, there's always ministering, you know,
ministering is working, it's not working. The interviews
are working, they're not working.
And just,
and then there's always some teaching issues.
And usually, the teacher the the really sighted
presidencies don't
bring up the teaching issues. That's something we
notice just by being there. And we can
pull them aside afterwards and say, did did
you see how this kinda went off track?
And
you might think about, you know, you could
address this or
let me remind them about what it means
to preside. You know, we talk about being
a plant in the audience. You're you you
don't get to just sit back. You are
not off the clock once the lesson starts.
You know?
So if you're presiding, you need to preside
and you need to right the ship or,
you know, stick your hand up if it's
going awry, and
so we can see things like that also.
Yeah. That that's great. And I imagine even
if the the maybe the teacher is struggling
or to get some participation and Yeah. You
know, the teacher can help facilitate that. Yeah.
For sure. Yeah. Anything else around the concept
of unity? This is one of the principles
you put on your on your list, because
this is something that's on top minds of
a lot of leaders. They're just
stimulating unity. We want people to feel comfortable,
but, you know, we want some authenticity there
as well and Exactly. Anything comes to mind.
Well, if I can tell a little Wilford
Woodruff story, if that would be okay. Oh,
I like it. I'm looking to leave it
in here.
In, 1887
in the spring of eighteen eighty seven, it
was clear that John Taylor, the third president
of the church wasn't gonna be around much
longer.
And, you know, succession in the presidency hadn't
gone very smoothly. Previously, it was three and
a half years between Joseph Smith and Brigham
Young and then three years between Brigham Young
and John Taylor. And
Wilford Woodruff was the president of the Quorum
of the Twelve by this point, and,
Heber j Grant was the a junior member
of the quorum of the twelve.
And Wilford knew Heber because
Heber's dad, Jedediah Grant, was one of his
friends from Zion's camp and all of these
years.
And so Heber j Grant came in and
asked Wilford Woodruff in March of eighteen eighty
seven,
do we do you have to be the
next prophet or could we just jump ahead
to Joseph f Smith?
And like, oh, that's kind of a question.
Right? Like, you wanna skip me entirely?
And he
Wilford Woodruff was so gracious about the thing
and his response. He wrote him a 10
page letter in response,
and he started off with, you asked me
a question last time
we met, which I was not prepared to
answer at the time it was given. I've
given the subject some thought and reflection, and
now I feel prepared to answer the question.
And then he goes on for 10 pages,
and then he signs it, I remain your
brother in the gospel.
And And it's just
so patient
and gracious and sincere
and just a real desire
to help him understand.
And so I I think of that a
lot when we're talking about unity
with
our, you know, in the wards and with
our presidents and in our presidencies
about just being gracious and sincere and taking
the time to really
listen to what's going on.
And I think that makes a big difference
because
nobody's gonna listen to you if you're not
being sincere, if they think you're just in
there to tell them what to do. Nobody
wants that. Right? Right. Yeah. It doesn't get
you anywhere.
So, I mean, I think that
those qualities
can make a big difference.
Yeah. I love that story. And and, I
mean, Wilford Woodruff was just, an I I
don't know if the expert's the right term,
but he just he navigated some really tricky
dynamics. Yeah. It was almost like as he
was coming in, the church was sort of
institutionalizing,
right? It was it was becoming this
this large moving organization.
Yeah.
And,
you know, I just just the the stories,
I I thoroughly enjoyed, you know, Saints volume
two where it talks about just the the
dynamics he had to deal with with the
the polygamy issue and and, man, just some
tough situations.
Yeah. And you look back and, you know,
his influence is obviously
still with us and, you know, as as
far as how we run and function and
but even that succession those succession dynamics was
Yeah. Was something that had to be figured
out. And, he he did it, you know,
I mean, with the help of others, but
he had it he threaded that needle. But
he was really clear that it was the
unity with the other brethren that made all
of that possible.
Yeah. And now even today, that's a huge
part of our leadership culture is that unity.
Right? Yeah. Yeah. That's powerful.
Awesome. Anything else around unity that, we would
mention? Well, I think
I don't I don't know if the sisters
in the wards notice this quite as much,
but I think the relief society presidents
notice that we're on their team when we
see it as our goal to make their
job easier.
So Yeah.
We really try hard to
help them find effective strategies and do some
creative problem solving, you know, and,
just make everything we do with them convenient
for them. You know, we wanna do your
training at your location on your timetable. We
wanna come to you. We don't wanna make
this
harder for you, you know. The difference between
a stake for the study president and ward
for the study president really is how
how many hours you're just in the trenches
really. Mhmm. Yeah. That's true. With all of
all of the
little not they're not little, but I don't
know so many problems and issues in the
ward with so many people and the stake
Relief Society presidency doesn't really get their hands
quite that into everything else. But if we
can make their job easier,
and, you
know, kind of anticipate their needs
and
get ahead of their needs really, then I
think we're we're doing our job right. No.
That's great. That's great. And and, you know,
just communicating that that you're on their team.
Right? Yeah. And and I think I I
would imagine that, you know, there's there's a
relationship there. Even if there's those moments like,
hey. I I noticed something that they can
you know, I'll give some feedback here. Like,
they're more open to that when they know
that you're rooting for them. Right? Yeah.
And part of that is, like, I mean,
advocating for their needs. So whatever
whatever their needs are,
I want them to know that our presidency
is gonna speak up for them in state
council or
with their high councilor in their ward or
with their bishop if I need to intervene
or whatever it is that
that I'm gonna follow through on what they
need and then I'll report back so they
know that I didn't just drop them. Yeah.
That's really good.
This next one's, I'm I'm intrigued. The foster
doctrinal confidence.
Tell me more.
We talk about this a lot lately in
our stake,
and I think there are a few parts
to it. First of all, I think it's
under and I think
this is important for everybody, but for women
especially,
understanding
Christ's doctrine and your
priesthood authority. I think that gives you the
confidence to act as a leader, a woman
leader in the church.
And I think we actually talk about it
more than we think we do, we just
don't call it
priesthood authority. You know, you're delegated priesthood authority
from your calling and you're sustained in your
calling,
and we talk a lot about, you know,
you have a stewardship or you are sustained
to do this. But if we actually label
it as
this is your delegated priesthood authority,
it gives the sisters
a lot more confidence to feel like, oh,
well then, in that case, I think I
can do this. I mean, and and even
with ministering assignments, you know, in the handbook,
it says priesthood authority is delegated to members
to serve as ministering brothers and sisters.
And so we bring that up a lot
with
in our training and when we visit wards
and stuff when they say, well, we're having
a problem with sisters who, you know, they're
nervous to go and knock on a strange
door or to get to know someone that
they haven't met before.
And we remind them, well, remind them that
this is their
they have they have priesthood authority to do
this. And and usually,
they think, oh oh I never thought about
it like that, you know.
And if they can
verbalize it kind of in those terms,
I think it really gives them the confidence
to do that.
And then I you know, the other part
of that is just that understanding
Christ doctrine
is a protection to the sisters.
Mhmm. You know, people at least around here,
the people that we talk to that have
doubts or a faith crisis,
they don't have a problem with Jesus so
much. They have a problem with the people
or the practices or the policies. You know,
Jesus is good.
It's everything else.
So if we can focus more on
Christ doctrine,
that really acts as greater protection
for them. And if they can realize, oh,
this is culture this part's culture, this part's
doctrine. And if I can separate those a
little bit, then I'm okay with some of
the
the sticky parts of the doctrine or I
mean, the sticky parts of the practice or
the people that are bothering me because I'm
good with I'm good with Jesus.
Yeah. And does that typically come out through,
like, lesson plans or, like, they're
focusing more on the those core doctrines
in in the lesson setting or Yeah. So
we try to,
emphasize
a couple of things. Well, first of all,
that when you're studying the scriptures
or
church history,
figure out how it applies to you. You
know, where are you in this story? And
we get it all through church history, you
know, Joseph in,
the Sacred Grove, you know, he calls him
Joseph my son. I mean, all throughout the
scriptures, Alma, Enos, they call him by name.
And this here in the Doctrine and Covenants,
you know, Oliver, Peter, John, everybody, call him
by name. So figure out where you are
in the story because if
if Christ is speaking to them, he's also
speaking to you.
So we point, you know, be a little
bit more intentional about pointing that out. But
in general, just
get to Jesus faster in the lesson or
in your testimony or in your talk. You
know? Don't spend
half the lesson
on the other stories and stuff. But if
you hit them hit hit straight from the
start, you know, with the scripture or
this is what president Nelson has to say
about this or this is
straight to straight to the Jesus part,
it kinda colors the rest of the lesson
and you don't
get quite as distracted by the other stuff.
Yeah. And this is good practice especially in
a doctrine covenants here, right, where, you know,
there's a lot of stories there. There's a
lot of history there, and there's a lot
to discuss and share and people and characters,
you know, in the eighteen hundreds to talk
about. Yeah. But you can also get to
those those core
Christ
centered doctrines. Right? And well and and Doctrine
and Covenants can sometimes feel a little bit
administrative. You know? Mhmm. There's a lot of
these sound like meetings of my last, you
know, minutes from my last meeting or whatever.
But if you can
focus in on, you know, what what this
actually meant to them and what it means
to me and
and
it make it more personal and applicable to
you.
Really good. Really good. Anything else as as
far as the
the fostering doctrinal confidence?
Well, this goes back to the unity a
little bit,
that, you know, you think
how do you build unity in award? Is
it from get to know you games and
socializing?
And, sure, you want everybody to
get to know each other and things like
that, but
when you're in a lesson on Sunday,
what really is gonna bring them together is
sincere testimonies and witnessing
of the savior in the lesson.
So if you can open up the discussion
like that and get some real
honest and vulnerable and
sincere
testimonies and love of the savior,
the sisters
really
responded that well. And they they love the
sister who shares something like that. And it
really brings
that Relief Society
lesson, the people in that lesson together. Yeah.
That's that's great. Because we do kinda default
there. Right? So the socializing
to to build unity. Like, oh, we just
need to get together and talk more.
But I think when we get together and
witness more, you know, there's a natural bonding
element
in that ex in that exercise. Yeah. I
mean, you can't really argue with someone's testimony.
You know? I mean, you can argue with
lots of other things that they might have
to say, but you can't really argue with
the sincerity of their witness of the savior.
Yeah. That's fantastic.
Yeah. Anything else we're missing as far as
the the confidence part?
Well, I do really appreciate this quote from,
elder Uchtdorf in his last conference talk.
He says, if you are uncertain about a
particular doctrine or practice or element of church
history, seek clarity with faith in Jesus Christ.
Seek to understand
his sacrifice for you, his love for you,
his will for you.
And I love that he points out doctrine
and practice
and church history
and that all of those things apply to
you. Yeah. Not,
you know,
understanding
church history
and the scriptures and Christ doctrine can only
make you stronger. You know, you sometimes worry
that
you're gonna get into the weeds or you're
gonna find out stuff that you don't really
wanna know, But it it's really just the
opposite. It it it can only strengthen your
testimony.
Yeah. That's true. He doesn't disappoint.
Yeah. For sure. Yeah. And that leads into
the next principle, don't be afraid of of
hard questions and discussions. Is that is that
what you're you're getting at there? Yeah. We
we talk about we talk about that a
lot in the in our stake, and we
really want as stake leaders, you know, because
like you were asking earlier, what is really
the role of a stake leader? Well, we
don't wanna seem like we're inaccessible
or we just
do things, you know, behind the curtain like
the great and powerful Oz or whatever.
So Yeah. They're just there are a lot
of hard questions out there and hard problems.
And, you know, I learned this when I
had teenagers. I mean, I had my brother
made me a t shirt one year for
Christmas that says hashtag no more hard
conversations. Like, I was just so tired of
it all the time.
Every
but
when you have some
unity in this in your presidency and you're
with your leaders and when you feel confident
in the doctrine,
those hard questions and those hard discussions
are totally worth it,
you know, because
that's where the growth is. I mean, if
we believe in ongoing restoration
Yeah. That's the whole point is the questions
and
bringing up those hard topics that you know
other people are thinking about that. So, I
mean, sometimes they'll come to you with those
topics,
but other times you just hear rumblings and
you're like, oh, this is something we need
to address.
Right? Yeah. So for example,
when they change
the question in the temple recommend interview about
garments
and what they read about the garments, like,
we brought it up in state council
and some of the
state presidency said, oh, isn't this so great?
And I was like, actually, and I raised
my hand,
we've got a few women who are having
a problem with this because they're not quite
sure how to interpret what this really means.
And so we talked about it in state
council, and then we went back and we
the same week, we gathered all the Relief
Society presidents together,
and we said, you know, tell us what
you're hearing about this.
Tell us, you know, how you're addressing this.
And
these are then then I brought in, you
know, I looked up
the previous
question in this in the temple recommend and
the current one, and, you know, these are
actually kinda the same. And,
here's what the policy is, and here's what
Albert Oaks had to say about it So
that they were kind
of armed with what they needed when these
questions came up in their ward.
And I think it'll happen again when we
get,
you know, new garments coming out at the
end of the year. That's right. You know?
Yeah. More questions. Right? Yeah. More clarification. More
questions.
Yeah. I I really appreciate it because I'm
I mean, you could say
maybe a really sunny president could maybe dodge
some of those
circumstances because, you know, they're not giving the
temple recommend interview. So maybe, you know, that
they don't have to worry about that, you
know, a more direct conversation.
And and maybe if it comes up in
release, I think it may quickly change the
subject or go a different direction. But I
just love this approach of saying, no. Let's,
like, let's talk about it as you know,
all the early side presidencies and
process it here. And then when you when
you walk into that situation and, yeah, maybe
nobody brings it up, but at least you're
prepared Yeah. When they do. There's no point
there's no benefit to being blindsided.
Yeah.
You know? And I think we do that
we we shy away from that for a
few reasons. Like, there's some fear with those
hard topics. And one of them is that
if you're acknowledging
people's questions or people's doubts that you're at
the same time propagating some doubts.
Yeah. Right. But that's not the case at
all. I mean, these people
are, you know, they're gonna have questions
and that's all that's all good. If we
can talk about it more like,
don't be afraid of your questions.
Your questions is how you grow and how
you learn
more about the things you need to learn
about.
Sister
Tracy Browning in her,
last conference talk seeking answers to spiritual questions
said,
asking questions and searching for meaning are a
natural and normal part of our mortal experience.
At times, not readily having complete answers
can bring us to the edge of our
understanding,
and those limitations can feel frustrating or overwhelming.
Wondrously, heavenly father's plan of happiness for all
of us is designed to help us progress
despite our limitations and accomplish what we cannot
accomplish on our own, even without a complete
knowledge of all things. God's plan is merciful
towards the limitations of our humanity.
And I think if we can normalize
having questions
and bringing them up and let's talk through
them, let's sort them out,
you know, and
the answers are good, you know. God's answers
are good. So as long as you're getting
them from
reliable sources, you know,
the scriptures and the words of the prophets
and everything, you're gonna be happy with those
answers. It's when
you don't bring up the questions, the hard
topics,
and you take so you take them somewhere
else instead. You know, that's when you really
run into trouble, I think. Is there any
other way that you encourage the the other
release site press said to bring bring up
topics? Or do you want me to wanna
prepare it or you want a more proactive
to bring it up? I mean, because I
mean, there's a lot to talk about and,
obviously, you know, we wanna get like you
said, let's get to Jesus
as quickly as possible. Not maybe some of
the every question that's out there, but Yeah.
I mean, how do you navigate that? Do
do you encourage them to bring it up
or just make sure they're prepared? Or Well,
we want yeah. We make sure that they're
prepared and that they're not afraid to to
have those conversations.
But, you know, now that the,
the handbook is clear that you're supposed to
have a counseling
section at the beginning of your lessons in
recite in elders quorum, you know, we talk
about that. We talk about that as a
good time. If you are hearing
rumblings
in your ward that need to be addressed,
that is a great time to bring them
up. So,
you know, in Texas, we'll go back to
the garment thing, it is so hot here
in the summer, you know. So
one question we said maybe you wanna bring
up, what do you do when it's a
hundred and five degrees out and it is
so gross and you just
it's hard to wear your garments? Let's talk
about that for a few minutes, you know.
And that's your counseling
topic.
So, you know, maybe bring up some of
those because the more you just let people
think, oh, I'm not the only one who
thinks that, like, these are really hot and
sticky
in the Texas summer. Yeah. Right. You know,
they feel better. And Yeah. They're even if
you don't solve the problem,
they're,
you know, they're being heard.
Yeah. I love that. And and just again,
not that because anybody has the answer, but
or or everybody's gonna agree, but how do
you deal with that? You know, I'm not
the only one that's, you know, sweating like
crazy in July.
So, yeah, I think part of that is
with the hard topics,
you know, issue
is getting to the root of what they're
really asking or what the misunderstanding is. So
if you go back to the Wilford Woodruff
example with this letter,
that he wrote back to Heber J Grant.
Heber j Grant thought his question was,
I don't like George q Cannon very much,
and I don't want him to be in
the next presidency, so let's jump ahead to
Joseph f Smith. Like and you're kind of
old Wilfred, so let's just skip ahead.
But what, you know, Wilford figured out was
no. The question he's really asking is where
are the keys
of administrating the church kept?
And so that was the question he answered,
you know.
And
that is actually what they needed to know,
you know, that and that set up the
succession of all the future,
you know, his explanations sets up succession of
all the next presidents of the church
by spelling that out. But then he also
realized, well, I do need to address
this issue of
what's his problem with George Buchanan and how
are we gonna
get unified behind my presidency that includes George
Buchanan. You know. So he spent almost two
years
talking to his presidency
and the quorum of the 12 about how
do I how do how do we get
you guys comfortable enough that you'll sustain my
presidency.
And
and I mean, that's a great lesson and
it was hard, you know. I mean, he
he writes in his journal a lot, like,
this was a painful day, or we had
a hard day, or I couldn't sleep thinking
about this.
And he did it great. I mean, one
time he records in his journal, I think
I done wrong and I took the matter
too far. You know? He, like, maybe lost
his cool.
But other than that, he's very patient and
he lets them all get out their issues
and they just talk it out until everybody
feels better.
And, you know, he still he still had
the presidency he wanted. I mean, he still
it it was the same result, but
with all of the backing that he needed
and the understanding that the quorum of the
12 needed to make that work.
Yeah.
You know, in leadership, it rarely is about
it rarely is about the
about the answer, whether it's right or wrong.
It's more of, like, do we have a
culture here that we can wrestle towards an
answer and disagree and and understand, right, that,
wait, it's not just about the succession, it's
about how you feel about Josh Buchanan. Right?
Like, it's not just about
about the the the the garment or just
about following the prophet. Like, there's there's other
dynamics here that we could explore to better
understand and
and and, you know, find paths to be
faithful,
you know, in covenant people the best the
best way as possible. Yeah. So So I
think getting to the root of the problem,
figuring out what Yeah. What is the actual,
you know or does this person just need
to be heard?
Mhmm. You know? I mean, just this week,
our stake president got a got a letter
from a sister in the stake who wanted
to talk to him about something and so
it was a stake presidency and me because
she was a sister and we went just
sat down with her for forty five minutes
just just yesterday.
And, you know, part of it was she
wanted to be heard and she felt so
much better that we were gonna listen to
her. But part of it was some problem
solving. So, you know, come in with your
notebook. I never go anywhere without my notebook.
You know, write figure it out. Be the
problem solver that they need.
And I learned that right at the beginning
when I was a ward relief society president.
I when I was like two weeks in
and we had a really horrible death in
our ward and the bishop called and said,
you know, you're up. I need you here.
And I I was nervous and I showed
up with my with my notebook and I
was
I was where I needed to be and
I was taking notes the whole time and
then we got into solving all the rest
of the problems after that. But
you just have to
maybe think outside the box a little bit
and figure out how to be the problem
solver that they need. Yeah.
That's powerful. That's powerful.
Anything else,
around tough questions? Do we cover that pretty
well? Well, I mean, the last part I'd
say is for women especially,
and I mean for men, you know, get
the other side of the table involved. So
a lot of these questions,
I maybe can't solve, but I know who
can,
you know, or I can encourage this Relief
Society president to
call call your elders quorum president. This guy
should be your new best friend.
So get him on board, you know, see
if there's some stuff you guys can do
together
or, you know, let me call the high
councilor over your ward or let me call
your bishop and see if he has any
insight into this, or let me take this
to state council
so that you're getting,
you know, not just the women trying to
solve it from our side, but the men
involved. And then I think the more you
can
show that, you know,
that visibility of the women and the men
working together,
that that helps
that helps the women feel better about a
lot of the issues that they have. Is
that, well, this isn't just, you know, the
women doing this around the kitchen table. This
is all of the leaders working together
to help me solve this problem.
Yeah. That's powerful. That's powerful. I love that.
Well, Christy, this has been great. I mean,
so much to learn, so many dynamics and
things to consider, I I think has been
really helpful. And and then, you know, throwing
in some Wilford Woodruff as well in there.
So story for everything. I know. Right? He
I mean, he was around so long and
wrote so much. So,
he he, I'm excited for his podcast in
the next life. I know.
So it's gonna be a lot.
And, obviously, if people wanna check it out,
I've just Desert Book is publishing it, so
you can get it, there. Desert Bookstore. Yep.
Or the RSC website, you know, the religious
studies center website.
Oh, cool. Yeah. The Desert Book website, I
I assume it will be on Amazon.
Yeah. I haven't seen it there yet, but
yeah. I'm sure it will be. And, you
know, now that I've written a book, I
get everybody
asked this question. Is it will it is
there an audio version?
There is not an audio version. Alright. Alright.
We'll have to deal with that. You're gonna
have to have, you know, someone sit and
read it to you. Yeah. And, you know,
I'll mention this sort of the online here
that if if you, if there's some stories
or concepts, especially this book specifically, I'd love
to,
continue to put that out there either through
like our our YouTube channel and getting information
out there. Because I just I love good
early church history story and especially Wilford Woodruff,
and so I'd love to promote more of
that as as much as possible. I was
I was surprised that there wasn't more written
about him. Considering as much as he's written,
I mean, there's a great book by the,
Wilfrid Ordiff's written as developing,
Wilf the development of temple doctrine written by
our executive director, Jennifer Mackley.
Oh, okay. And then there's a big, big
fat biography of him.
But
it there you know, especially considering what a
great missionary he was. I mean, what a
powerful missionary and
how many great stories he had. I was
I was surprised that there was kind of
a a hole in the market there. Yeah.
For sure. Well, I'm I'm glad you're contributing
and and writing more books like this and
encourage people to check it out. So last
question I have for you, Christy,
is as you can see your time as
a leader, how has being a leader helped
you become a better follower of Jesus Christ?
I think I've just learned a lot about
how
just beautiful and
merciful and joyful
the plan of salvation is.
And
I I
I can't I never get tired of
teaching that and helping our sisters understand
just just how beautiful the plan is. I
mean, you know, now I'm 42. He talks
about it as, you know, the plan of
mercy, the plan of salvation, the plan of
happiness, the plan of redemption. And it's
it's
the more you study it, the more I
study it,
the the more
I appreciate that. And, you know, there's a
lot of there's a lot of noise around
the gospel, but
the the plan of salvation is just beautiful
and amazing and
brings a lot of joy. And I love
that I love when we get to focus
on that.
And that concludes this how I lead interview.
I hope you enjoyed it. And, I would
ask you, could you take a minute and
drop this link in an email, on social
media, in a text, wherever it makes the
most sense, and share it with somebody who
could relate to this experience. And this is
how we develop as leaders, just hearing what
the other guy's doing, trying some things out,
testing, adjusting
for your area. And,
that's where great leadership's discovered. Right? So we
would love to have you, share this with,
somebody in this calling or a related calling,
and that would be great. And, also, if
you know somebody,
any type of leader who would be a
fantastic guest on the how I lead segment,
reach out to us. Go to leadingsaints.org/contact.
Maybe send this in individual an email letting
them know that you're going to be suggesting
their name for this interview. We'll reach out
to them and,
see if we can line them up. So,
again, go to leadingsaints.org/contact,
and there you can submit all the information
and let us know. And maybe they will
be on a future how I lead segment
on the Leading Saints podcast.
Remember, go to leadingsaints.org/14
to hear the Packard family's experience of when
loved ones leave the church.
It came as a result of the position
of leadership which was imposed upon us
by the God of heaven who brought forth
a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
And when the declaration was made concerning the
own and only true and living Church upon
the face of the earth,
We were immediately put in a position of
loneliness,
the loneliness of leadership
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,
and to which we must face up with
boldness and courage
and ability.