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How do you help someone tell their spouse

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that they have secretly been viewing pornography?

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Wow. These are tough situations.

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Thankfully, one of my favorite and most effective

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therapist, Jeff Strewer, put together a presentation about

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disclosing betrayal.

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Jeff explains how disclosing betrayal can make recovery

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and repentance

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so much more difficult if it isn't handled

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correctly.

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This isn't a rip the band aid off

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quickly type of situation.

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With a better understanding of betrayal, church leaders

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can be a strong resource

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in helping couples navigate the awful effects of

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pornography usage.

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You can watch Jeff's entire presentation at no

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cost in the Liberating Saints virtual library. Simply

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go to leadingsaints.org/fourteen,

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and you can sign up for fourteen days

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of free access to Jeff's presentation

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and the entire library. It's one of my

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favorite interviews.

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If you wanted further insight into a come

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follow me lesson, you'd probably search in YouTube

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or get the We Believe app. Tough church

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history questions? You'd reach out to the BH

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Roberts Foundation. But what if you wanted to

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learn to be a better leader? Well, I'm

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glad you asked. You'd come to Leading Saints.

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That's why we exist, to help Latter day

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Saints be better prepared to lead by being

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familiar with others' leadership experiences,

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understand the latest leadership research, and finding a

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community to share ideas. That's why I'm glad

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you found the Leading Saints podcast. We hope

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you will dive into the archives and visit

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leadingsaints.org

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to find out what are the top most

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listened to episodes on the podcast.

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Welcome. You're gonna love it.

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Alright. We're back for another leading saints episode.

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And today we bring the big brains into

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the room with Brian Willoughby, who is a

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BYU professor in the family sciences and does

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a ton of research

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about

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pornography and the impact of pornography, both in

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the religious context and outside the religious context.

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I actually heard Brian on an episode of

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The Art of Manliness

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done by Brett McKay, former guest of of

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Leading Saints. And they have this conversation in

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a more secular context. And they talked a

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lot about this, the dynamics that sometimes the

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ways that religion help individuals overcome pornography and

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actually the ways that religion can be a

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negative impact on, you know, people overcoming pornography.

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So we jump into it, everything talking about

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what do we need to understand with the

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youth experience

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when it comes to pornography? How do they

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experience it in a way that can be

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detrimental? How can we instill hope, get them

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past the shame on missions

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into life and into adulthood

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and, all the science

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of pornography, what it does to our brains,

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the concept of addiction. Is that a thing?

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Is science moving towards a world where actually

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sexual addiction will be a diagnosis

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that's used? It's so really good topics. This

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is one to just get a 2025

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update on the science and understanding

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of pornography and its detrimental impacts. And what

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do we do with it in a religious

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context? How can we encourage people and avoid

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those negative experiences that some fill in a

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religious context? So you're gonna appreciate the episode

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for sure. So here's my interview with BYU

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professor Brian

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Willoughby.

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Alright, Brian. So you are I don't know.

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Are you the expert, like, researcher when it

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comes to all things

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pornography, you know, the good, the bad, the

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ugly? Or how do you how do you

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frame it? I I wouldn't say all things.

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Okay. But, yeah, it is is one of

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my areas that I spent a lot of

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time researching,

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particularly in the context of young adults and

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close relationships that it's actually where my research

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kind of, originates and and where a lot

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of my focus has been is what happens

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in young adulthood and adolescence

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that's leading people to successful families and successful

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relationships. And just over the last two decades,

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as I was studying that, it became really

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clear,

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you know, post smartphone that pornography was a

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huge part of how

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young adults were having to navigate that time

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in life and then into their adult relationships.

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And so it's been something that's been a

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strong focal point of LAME research, just trying

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to understand it, trying to understand how to

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help people, try to help them

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understand it individually, understand it in relationships. Yeah.

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And you're at BYU

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as a professor. What department are you in?

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What type of classes do you teach? Yeah.

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So I'm a professor in the school of

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family life, which is where we have our

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marriage family therapy, family studies, child development majors.

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Then I'm also a Wheatley Fellow at the

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Wheatley Institute,

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which is, BYU's kind of policy

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oriented

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institution that does research on core institutions, family

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being one of them. Okay. So the Wheatley

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Institute, that's officially under the BYU umbrella. Yes.

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Right? Mhmm. And so they make sure we're

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getting good research on

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things like pornography

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or other family related issues so that, hopefully,

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that's influencing our broader culture. Yeah. Exactly. Like

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like I said, Wheatley is is focused on

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on core institutions in our society. And so

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we do family based research as a core

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institution, research on religion

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as a core institution, and, research on, constitutional

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law is another kind of core foundational

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piece of society. And so how does that

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work? I mean, just generally speaking, like, you

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do the Wheatley Institute does research, and then

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are you meeting with politicians or lobbyists? Or,

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like, how does it make it further down

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the road? Yeah. So we do a bunch

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of different things. We try to interface with

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a a lot of leaders, thought leaders across

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the the country and internationally that

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are talking and doing work in relevant areas.

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And then we also do do research. And

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typically, when we do research, we aim that

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research towards more public consumption.

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And so we do report,

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research reports.

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We do media interactions

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so that people can actually see what the

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the latest research is and not just bury

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it in an empirical journal that 10 people

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in my field might read. Nice. Interesting. That's

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very good. And so with your teaching, you

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see a lot of, like, future therapists come

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through. Is that who you're teaching? Yeah. I'm

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I'm on the family study side. And so,

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a lot of my students go all sorts

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of different directions. Some do become therapists.

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Some like to work with families and children,

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do educational work. We also get a lot

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of pre professional people that wanna go into

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medical school or law school that wanna work

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with families in those different professions too. And

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so I primarily teach our big introduction to

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family class, where you can just talk about

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family relationships.

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And then I also teach our preparation for

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marriage class. Nice. So it's a good undergrad

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degree where it has all sorts of options

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after that. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of cool

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things. So, I mean, obviously,

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the stigma of pornography is big. I mean,

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especially in a religious context. And you've looked

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at, like, things both in the context of

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religion and outside. Right? And as a Latter

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day Saint, that's probably an interesting perspective to

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have as well. So Yeah. I mean, where's

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a good launching off point with that context?

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Well, I I think there's a lot to

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say about the religious context that we can

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probably get into in a lot of depth

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because you're right. That is a really important

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conversation to have, both from a research standpoint

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because being in a religious culture does change

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a lot of the dynamics

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in terms of how people feel about their

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pornography use, how it affects their relationships,

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how much they are open with their spouses

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and with with, other people about their pornography

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use. And so there's that piece. And then

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there's also a lot of research that suggests

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that being religious tends to exaggerate some of

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the negative effects of of pornography

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simply because of some of those interesting kind

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of moral incongruence.

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I'm doing something that's not only bad for

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me, but I feel bad about. And so

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it kinda adds a whole another layer to

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it. My spouse spouse isn't the only one

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mad at me, but now God's mad at

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me. Right? Exactly.

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So there is a lot to talk about

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there too. Although I always hesitate jumping right

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into the religion piece because sometimes that gives

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the false impression that it's just a religious

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issue or it's just an issue if you're

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a religious person. When in reality, we have

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all this research has come out in the

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last couple decades that shows that pornography use

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is problematic

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and does influence

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influence people in a lot of negative ways.

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And I think that's another really important topic

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to have discussions about to help people

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understand what the real effects are of pornography

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are, to understand how those effects

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differ based on what kind of use you're

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dealing with and what that frequency is because

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there's a lot of myths and misunderstandings

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about thinking that pornography is just kind of

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one thing. You either use or have a

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problem with pornography or you don't. And the

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reality is that there's a whole spectrum of

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abuse. President Oaks has talked about that, before

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on this topic. And so I think understanding

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kind of each pieces of those contexts kinda

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help give a full picture to help people

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understand both what's happening and then more importantly,

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what do I do about it and and

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how do I get help? Yeah. So it's

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fair to say, like, stepping back out of

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the religious context to a broader society, like

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because you'll hear it sometimes in in the

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secular world of, like, you know, pornography is

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not a big deal. If everybody's, you know,

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everybody's consensual in the process of the making

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it. And, you you know, it actually might

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enhance your your sexual life and your marriage

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and all these things. And so that's safe

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to say that that's been proven that I

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mean, generally speaking, pornography is a negative thing.

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Yeah. Yeah. As as much as we can

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prove anything Yeah. In the social sciences, what's

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interesting about the pornography area is that we've

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had in the last couple years what are

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called meta analysis, which is where we take

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a whole bunch of studies that have been

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done on the same topic, and we do

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kind of a study of those studies to

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try to, as close as we can in

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social science, come to a conclusion about what

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is true, what's actually going on. And as

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we've done the those meta analyses, there's been

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three key things that have come from them.

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One is that pornography tends to be associated

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with lower relationship satisfaction.

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Two, pornography tends to be associated with lower

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sexual satisfaction,

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which is a key thing because like you

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said, a lot of people have, outside of

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religious cultures, oftentimes have the misunderstanding

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that pornography could enhance your sex life or

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help with things. A lot of sex therapists

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sometimes think that and will even prescribe pornography

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to a couple and say, hey. This might

267
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be something to help you communicate better about

268
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your wants and desires. But now we have,

269
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like you said, a lot of studies that

270
00:10:02,129 --> 00:10:04,610
show that pornography use is linked to lower

271
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sexual satisfaction.

272
00:10:06,035 --> 00:10:07,154
And the other thing that's come out of

273
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those meta analysis

274
00:10:08,514 --> 00:10:11,095
is linking pornography with aggressive behavior.

275
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Aggressive behavior, particularly towards women. And so we

276
00:10:14,274 --> 00:10:16,595
have kind of those three pillars now in

277
00:10:16,595 --> 00:10:19,415
the research. And obviously, there's nuance, there's complexity,

278
00:10:19,850 --> 00:10:21,629
but there's enough there with adults

279
00:10:22,009 --> 00:10:24,730
to show, I think, that there's fairly compelling

280
00:10:24,730 --> 00:10:26,649
evidence that this is a kind of universal

281
00:10:26,649 --> 00:10:28,490
negative. The one other thing I'll add to,

282
00:10:28,490 --> 00:10:30,250
we don't have meta analysis on these things

283
00:10:30,250 --> 00:10:31,769
yet, but it's been based on some of

284
00:10:31,769 --> 00:10:34,174
my work, that goes past just satisfaction

285
00:10:34,794 --> 00:10:37,694
and looks at things like relationship commitment, relationship

286
00:10:37,834 --> 00:10:38,334
stability.

287
00:10:38,794 --> 00:10:40,634
What's been interesting about that research in the

288
00:10:40,634 --> 00:10:42,714
last couple years is that that's actually where

289
00:10:42,714 --> 00:10:44,495
we've we've seen in early research

290
00:10:44,949 --> 00:10:47,429
some of the strongest negative effects of pornography

291
00:10:47,429 --> 00:10:49,589
that that people adults that use pornography on

292
00:10:49,589 --> 00:10:50,570
a regular basis

293
00:10:50,949 --> 00:10:52,889
have much less stable relationships,

294
00:10:53,190 --> 00:10:55,589
much less commitment. There's a couple studies that

295
00:10:55,589 --> 00:10:57,909
have now come out that suggest that, divorce

296
00:10:57,909 --> 00:10:58,409
proneness

297
00:10:58,875 --> 00:11:00,975
goes way up with people that view pornography.

298
00:11:01,514 --> 00:11:03,355
And so in particular, when it comes to

299
00:11:03,355 --> 00:11:03,855
relationships,

300
00:11:04,394 --> 00:11:06,794
you've got pornography linked to all these negative

301
00:11:06,794 --> 00:11:07,855
relationship outcomes.

302
00:11:08,315 --> 00:11:10,095
And that would be on top of then

303
00:11:10,315 --> 00:11:13,509
the concern of pornography creating compulsive and addictive

304
00:11:13,509 --> 00:11:15,110
behavior, which is also a new thing we

305
00:11:15,110 --> 00:11:17,190
have in the research. Not necessarily new, but

306
00:11:17,190 --> 00:11:18,870
we did have the World Health Organization a

307
00:11:18,870 --> 00:11:22,250
couple years ago officially designate compulsive pornography,

308
00:11:22,789 --> 00:11:24,014
behavior as a

309
00:11:24,415 --> 00:11:24,915
classifiable

310
00:11:25,695 --> 00:11:27,455
mental health disorder. And so they were the

311
00:11:27,455 --> 00:11:30,095
first organization in the world to identify pornography

312
00:11:30,095 --> 00:11:31,934
use as an addictive behavior. So we're we're

313
00:11:31,934 --> 00:11:34,174
kind of getting all these things now across

314
00:11:34,174 --> 00:11:36,014
the last couple decades of research that all

315
00:11:36,014 --> 00:11:37,875
kind of point in the negative direction.

316
00:11:38,220 --> 00:11:39,740
You think is are we a step closer

317
00:11:39,740 --> 00:11:42,299
to because I know what's the, the therapy

318
00:11:42,299 --> 00:11:45,019
book? The diagnosis? The DSM. Yeah. DSM. Like

319
00:11:45,179 --> 00:11:46,480
because right now, the

320
00:11:46,940 --> 00:11:48,799
generally, you know, therapists, you know,

321
00:11:49,339 --> 00:11:52,294
outside of religious therapists are saying, well, it's

322
00:11:52,294 --> 00:11:54,534
not in the DSM that classify pornography as

323
00:11:54,534 --> 00:11:56,214
an addiction. Do you feel like we're getting

324
00:11:56,214 --> 00:11:58,714
a step closer to the DSM reckon recognizing

325
00:11:58,774 --> 00:12:00,934
that? Yeah. It would be very surprising to

326
00:12:00,934 --> 00:12:03,254
me if in the next version, or the

327
00:12:03,254 --> 00:12:04,075
next revision,

328
00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:06,879
if hypersexual disorder, which which this is kind

329
00:12:06,879 --> 00:12:08,799
of an offshoot of because that's the interesting

330
00:12:08,799 --> 00:12:11,120
thing about this is sex addiction still isn't

331
00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,600
in the DSM. You can't be diagnosed with

332
00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,605
sex addiction, hypersexual disorder. So I think with

333
00:12:16,605 --> 00:12:18,304
the World Health Organization identifying

334
00:12:18,845 --> 00:12:20,845
these types of behaviors is problematic with all

335
00:12:20,845 --> 00:12:23,745
the clinical research that's come out that suggests

336
00:12:24,125 --> 00:12:26,605
that this does act like a behavioral addictive

337
00:12:26,605 --> 00:12:29,549
compulsive disorder like gambling and other things. I'd

338
00:12:29,549 --> 00:12:31,710
be surprised if if we weren't moving in

339
00:12:31,710 --> 00:12:33,309
that direction in the next five years. Oh,

340
00:12:33,309 --> 00:12:36,129
that's interesting. And so on that note, like,

341
00:12:36,269 --> 00:12:37,950
in your research, like, you you talk about

342
00:12:37,950 --> 00:12:40,190
that, obviously, there's clear signs of it being

343
00:12:40,190 --> 00:12:42,975
negative for relationships and mental health. But, like,

344
00:12:42,975 --> 00:12:44,894
is there more and more indication of this

345
00:12:44,894 --> 00:12:46,735
actually doing something to the brain in a

346
00:12:46,735 --> 00:12:49,134
negative way? Like like a drug would like

347
00:12:49,134 --> 00:12:50,735
a hard drug would. So this this is,

348
00:12:50,735 --> 00:12:52,414
I think, where it's really important to talk

349
00:12:52,414 --> 00:12:54,735
about that continuum of use. Because a lot

350
00:12:54,735 --> 00:12:56,654
of people, again, talk about pornography use as

351
00:12:56,654 --> 00:12:58,679
kind of this black or white issue. And

352
00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:01,159
if you struggle with pornography, it's addiction. And

353
00:13:01,159 --> 00:13:03,100
in reality, there's actually two

354
00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,440
designations we talk about in the research. There

355
00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:08,860
is that kind of clear, addictive, compulsive

356
00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:11,575
pornography use. Right? There that people are having

357
00:13:11,575 --> 00:13:13,214
a hard time sleeping. They have, you know,

358
00:13:13,214 --> 00:13:15,455
what's called functional impairment, which is they're having

359
00:13:15,455 --> 00:13:18,174
a hard time with their job, with their

360
00:13:18,174 --> 00:13:18,674
relationships

361
00:13:19,375 --> 00:13:22,434
because they have oftentimes not just the behavior,

362
00:13:22,735 --> 00:13:24,750
but the compulsive thinking. The kind of obsessive

363
00:13:24,750 --> 00:13:26,350
thinking about it kind of interferes with their

364
00:13:26,350 --> 00:13:27,710
daily life. And and they almost need it

365
00:13:27,710 --> 00:13:29,629
in order to function? Almost like an alcoholic

366
00:13:29,629 --> 00:13:31,070
where it's like, well, I kind of just

367
00:13:31,070 --> 00:13:32,509
need to be slightly drunk. Most of the

368
00:13:32,509 --> 00:13:34,110
data function. Right? So we do have that

369
00:13:34,110 --> 00:13:35,950
group and I think it's important to recognize

370
00:13:35,950 --> 00:13:38,034
that that group is is fairly smaller. Our

371
00:13:38,034 --> 00:13:39,634
best estimates in fact, I was I was

372
00:13:39,634 --> 00:13:41,794
just reviewing an article that that will probably

373
00:13:41,794 --> 00:13:43,794
come out in the next six months or

374
00:13:43,794 --> 00:13:45,954
so that was, again, trying to collect as

375
00:13:45,954 --> 00:13:48,195
another meta analysis. And it was saying their

376
00:13:48,195 --> 00:13:51,089
best estimate was about ten percent of pornography

377
00:13:51,089 --> 00:13:53,490
users probably fall under this definition. So it's

378
00:13:53,490 --> 00:13:55,110
not a huge percent of it. But addicted.

379
00:13:55,809 --> 00:13:57,889
Ten percent of users fall under that addicted

380
00:13:57,889 --> 00:14:00,470
label. Right. That kind of compulsive use group.

381
00:14:00,610 --> 00:14:02,450
And so we have that group, but then

382
00:14:02,450 --> 00:14:03,809
we also have what a lot of my

383
00:14:03,809 --> 00:14:07,014
colleagues are calling PPU, which is problematic pornographies.

384
00:14:07,634 --> 00:14:09,075
And the idea of of that is that

385
00:14:09,075 --> 00:14:11,875
it's not quite rising to the level of

386
00:14:11,875 --> 00:14:15,555
clinical impairment and addiction and compulsive thinking, but

387
00:14:15,555 --> 00:14:18,670
it's someone who is wanting to stop the

388
00:14:18,670 --> 00:14:21,070
behavior. It's causing distress in their life, whether

389
00:14:21,070 --> 00:14:23,470
that's for religiously reasons or other reasons. You

390
00:14:23,470 --> 00:14:25,950
know, my spouse, my partner's unhappy with it.

391
00:14:25,950 --> 00:14:28,029
They're having a hard time. They can't stop.

392
00:14:28,029 --> 00:14:30,830
They keep coming back to it. And it's,

393
00:14:30,830 --> 00:14:33,284
again, creating problems in their life. And so

394
00:14:33,284 --> 00:14:35,205
we kinda separate those two things. You know,

395
00:14:35,205 --> 00:14:37,684
one is is that full blown kind of

396
00:14:37,684 --> 00:14:40,404
compulsive addiction behavior. One is kinda more the

397
00:14:40,404 --> 00:14:42,804
bad habit causing distress in my life. And

398
00:14:42,804 --> 00:14:44,725
the reason why that distinction is important to

399
00:14:44,725 --> 00:14:46,804
your question is that when we start talking

400
00:14:46,804 --> 00:14:48,585
about brain chemistry changes,

401
00:14:48,940 --> 00:14:51,019
we do have some research that does suggest

402
00:14:51,019 --> 00:14:52,879
that pornography can influence

403
00:14:53,180 --> 00:14:55,200
some of the the connections in our brain

404
00:14:55,340 --> 00:14:57,180
that are tied to dopamine and tied to

405
00:14:57,180 --> 00:15:00,139
to pleasure centers. But that evidence is is

406
00:15:00,139 --> 00:15:02,875
very focused on that group of ten percent.

407
00:15:02,875 --> 00:15:05,215
Right? The true addictive behavior

408
00:15:05,595 --> 00:15:07,274
can have an effect on your brain. Now

409
00:15:07,274 --> 00:15:08,715
it's not the same thing as meth. It's

410
00:15:08,715 --> 00:15:10,795
not the same thing as cocaine. I do

411
00:15:10,795 --> 00:15:13,835
hear those comparisons sometimes. I think the comparison

412
00:15:13,835 --> 00:15:15,355
you brought up is the one I like

413
00:15:15,355 --> 00:15:16,495
a lot, which is alcohol.

414
00:15:17,259 --> 00:15:19,259
Because we see, again, kind of that same

415
00:15:19,259 --> 00:15:21,759
continuum of use with alcohol, where we have

416
00:15:21,819 --> 00:15:24,620
alcoholics that are really struggling and and their

417
00:15:24,620 --> 00:15:27,419
brain chemistry is shifting because they have this

418
00:15:27,419 --> 00:15:29,875
compulsive need to engage in that behavior. And

419
00:15:29,875 --> 00:15:31,235
we see a lot of people that maybe

420
00:15:31,235 --> 00:15:33,955
aren't full blown alcoholics, but struggle with their

421
00:15:33,955 --> 00:15:35,795
drinking. And then they turn to drinking for

422
00:15:35,795 --> 00:15:37,795
emotional relief. They turn to it when their

423
00:15:37,795 --> 00:15:40,195
relationships are struggling. They wanna drink less, but

424
00:15:40,195 --> 00:15:42,675
they can't stop. Right? It's that kind of

425
00:15:42,675 --> 00:15:44,470
pattern that we tend to see. You know,

426
00:15:44,470 --> 00:15:46,870
hard drugs, meth, cocaine, you don't get this

427
00:15:46,870 --> 00:15:48,629
nice gradient. You don't get the person that's

428
00:15:48,629 --> 00:15:50,710
like, yeah, you know, I'd like to stop

429
00:15:50,710 --> 00:15:52,389
using meth as much, but, you know, every

430
00:15:52,389 --> 00:15:53,990
couple months, I kind of fall back into

431
00:15:53,990 --> 00:15:55,850
it. That that's not what this is. Interesting.

432
00:15:56,070 --> 00:15:57,965
And so you get the brain piece with

433
00:15:57,965 --> 00:16:00,125
the addicts, but then with the group that's

434
00:16:00,125 --> 00:16:03,085
struggling, kind of that problematic use, what you

435
00:16:03,085 --> 00:16:04,304
get is less

436
00:16:04,684 --> 00:16:05,184
physiological

437
00:16:05,725 --> 00:16:08,285
in the brain, and it's more cognitive in

438
00:16:08,285 --> 00:16:09,644
the brain. And what I mean by that

439
00:16:09,644 --> 00:16:11,850
is that most of these negative effects of

440
00:16:11,850 --> 00:16:14,089
pornography, we know are based on what's called

441
00:16:14,089 --> 00:16:14,589
scripting,

442
00:16:14,970 --> 00:16:17,450
which is when you consume media, when you

443
00:16:17,450 --> 00:16:20,089
watch something, or when you have interactions in

444
00:16:20,089 --> 00:16:22,730
your life, you learn things. You learn what

445
00:16:22,730 --> 00:16:25,149
to expect in certain situations. And pornography

446
00:16:25,794 --> 00:16:27,174
as a form of media

447
00:16:27,554 --> 00:16:29,174
is feeding you expectations

448
00:16:29,475 --> 00:16:31,794
and scripts about what intimacy is supposed to

449
00:16:31,794 --> 00:16:32,855
be like in relationships.

450
00:16:33,235 --> 00:16:34,915
And what we clearly know from a lot

451
00:16:34,915 --> 00:16:36,595
of research on content and and other things

452
00:16:36,595 --> 00:16:37,815
in mainstream pornography

453
00:16:38,210 --> 00:16:40,370
is that most of the scripts and most

454
00:16:40,370 --> 00:16:42,070
of the expectations I'm getting

455
00:16:42,450 --> 00:16:45,110
are not very conducive to a healthy relationship.

456
00:16:45,570 --> 00:16:47,570
And so now what's happening is that my

457
00:16:47,570 --> 00:16:49,669
expectations about my partner are changing,

458
00:16:49,970 --> 00:16:53,035
my expectations about intimacy are changing, and that

459
00:16:53,035 --> 00:16:53,934
is creating

460
00:16:54,554 --> 00:16:56,875
a difficulty in my relationship to have healthy

461
00:16:56,875 --> 00:16:57,375
relationships.

462
00:16:57,754 --> 00:16:59,615
And then the cycle that can happen is

463
00:16:59,675 --> 00:17:00,575
now I'm frustrated,

464
00:17:01,274 --> 00:17:01,774
unhappy

465
00:17:02,154 --> 00:17:03,535
in my real life relationships.

466
00:17:04,075 --> 00:17:06,190
I'm not feeling good. I now turn to

467
00:17:06,190 --> 00:17:08,269
pornography to feel better is kind of an

468
00:17:08,269 --> 00:17:09,570
emotional coping mechanism

469
00:17:09,870 --> 00:17:12,130
that reinforces all these negative expectations.

470
00:17:12,590 --> 00:17:14,430
I get even more frustrated in my relationship.

471
00:17:14,430 --> 00:17:16,110
And that's the cycle that can happen that

472
00:17:16,110 --> 00:17:17,950
can become really problematic, which is one of

473
00:17:17,950 --> 00:17:19,585
the reasons why we think we see a

474
00:17:19,585 --> 00:17:21,525
lot of these negative relationship outcomes.

475
00:17:21,904 --> 00:17:24,945
Even when someone's not engaging with pornography in

476
00:17:24,945 --> 00:17:27,585
an addictive pattern, there's, you know, couple times

477
00:17:27,585 --> 00:17:29,745
a month, couple times a year, we still

478
00:17:29,745 --> 00:17:32,519
see these negative relationship effects because of that

479
00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,799
scripting expectation issue. Yeah. And that scripting expectations

480
00:17:35,799 --> 00:17:37,180
like that because obviously,

481
00:17:37,559 --> 00:17:41,080
explicit pornography content, hardcore pornography goes zero to

482
00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:41,980
a hundred in

483
00:17:42,279 --> 00:17:44,859
a second. So they go really extreme with

484
00:17:44,974 --> 00:17:47,455
the behaviors and and the way they express

485
00:17:47,455 --> 00:17:48,994
sexuality. And so then

486
00:17:49,295 --> 00:17:50,115
that programs

487
00:17:50,414 --> 00:17:51,934
our brain to think, well, that's how it

488
00:17:51,934 --> 00:17:54,095
should be. Like, that's the full fulfillment of

489
00:17:54,095 --> 00:17:56,255
this relationship when it's actually could be very

490
00:17:56,255 --> 00:17:58,414
negative. Yeah. Full fulfillment. Right? Exactly. The way

491
00:17:58,414 --> 00:18:00,670
I kinda describe it to people is that

492
00:18:00,670 --> 00:18:03,470
there's three non normative pieces to mainstream pornography.

493
00:18:03,470 --> 00:18:05,789
It's it's non normative people. They don't look

494
00:18:05,789 --> 00:18:08,930
like most people. Right? It's non normative behavior.

495
00:18:08,990 --> 00:18:12,049
It's engaging in intimate behavior that most people

496
00:18:12,109 --> 00:18:13,490
don't do or don't enjoy

497
00:18:13,924 --> 00:18:15,544
in their normal healthy relationships.

498
00:18:15,845 --> 00:18:18,085
And it's non normative context. It's not a

499
00:18:18,085 --> 00:18:20,085
normal context for intimacy. And when you put

500
00:18:20,085 --> 00:18:21,304
those three things together,

501
00:18:21,605 --> 00:18:23,605
then, yeah, I I'm being fed a lot

502
00:18:23,605 --> 00:18:26,484
of unhealthy expectations. And and particularly when you

503
00:18:26,484 --> 00:18:28,345
put it in the context that most people

504
00:18:28,549 --> 00:18:29,849
get introduced to pornography

505
00:18:30,309 --> 00:18:32,169
in their youth, in their kind of preteen,

506
00:18:32,390 --> 00:18:33,450
early teen years,

507
00:18:33,750 --> 00:18:35,349
which means that for most people, this is

508
00:18:35,349 --> 00:18:37,589
their first experience with intimacy and what they

509
00:18:37,589 --> 00:18:39,609
think intimacy is like. And if I go,

510
00:18:39,750 --> 00:18:41,369
you know, a decade of my life,

511
00:18:41,684 --> 00:18:44,325
maybe without real human interaction when it comes

512
00:18:44,325 --> 00:18:45,224
to sexual intimacy,

513
00:18:45,605 --> 00:18:47,365
and I've been fed for ten years, this

514
00:18:47,365 --> 00:18:48,804
is what it's supposed to look like, this

515
00:18:48,804 --> 00:18:50,404
is what it's supposed to be. And then

516
00:18:50,404 --> 00:18:51,865
I try to be in a real relationship,

517
00:18:51,924 --> 00:18:54,325
you can immediately see how the challenge would

518
00:18:54,325 --> 00:18:56,779
be. Yeah. And I think I mean, a

519
00:18:56,779 --> 00:18:58,539
little bit of left turn here, but you

520
00:18:58,539 --> 00:19:01,420
use the concept of nonnormative of even social

521
00:19:01,420 --> 00:19:03,920
media in general, even it's obviously less stigmatized

522
00:19:04,220 --> 00:19:05,980
of of porn. And, you know, that's the

523
00:19:05,980 --> 00:19:08,140
problem. I'm just looking at cool recipes and

524
00:19:08,140 --> 00:19:10,894
lifestyle bloggers, but feeding your brain of like,

525
00:19:10,894 --> 00:19:13,075
oh, that family goes on vacation every month.

526
00:19:13,134 --> 00:19:14,974
They have a big house. Like, it can

527
00:19:14,974 --> 00:19:16,974
really mess with your mental health that you

528
00:19:17,134 --> 00:19:18,974
and I'm often remind myself of that. Like,

529
00:19:18,974 --> 00:19:20,575
yeah. There's nothing wrong with what you're looking

530
00:19:20,575 --> 00:19:22,599
at, but it is doing something when you're

531
00:19:22,599 --> 00:19:24,679
feeding your brain that. Right? Yes. Yeah. And

532
00:19:24,679 --> 00:19:26,759
especially when it comes to pornography where you're

533
00:19:26,759 --> 00:19:29,559
tying it to sexual expression. Yeah. And, you

534
00:19:29,559 --> 00:19:30,919
know, back to to the brain. A lot

535
00:19:30,919 --> 00:19:32,919
of powerful brain chemicals that that tend to

536
00:19:32,919 --> 00:19:35,335
reinforce some of those things. And really, again,

537
00:19:35,335 --> 00:19:36,615
when you take a step back and you

538
00:19:36,615 --> 00:19:38,954
say, okay, so we've got this relationship piece

539
00:19:39,174 --> 00:19:41,494
and the unhealthy expectations that come from it,

540
00:19:41,494 --> 00:19:43,414
we have the personal distress that it can

541
00:19:43,414 --> 00:19:46,214
cause and the relationship dynamics of just, you

542
00:19:46,214 --> 00:19:48,394
know, hiding and deceit and honesty

543
00:19:48,799 --> 00:19:51,519
and then the addictive components, the potential for

544
00:19:51,519 --> 00:19:52,579
it to become compulsive.

545
00:19:53,039 --> 00:19:54,400
Like I said, that's when you put all

546
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:55,599
those things together and kind of lay it

547
00:19:55,599 --> 00:19:57,359
out on the table, and sometimes what I

548
00:19:57,359 --> 00:19:59,119
have to remind my colleagues is you have

549
00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:00,819
all these potential issues

550
00:20:01,304 --> 00:20:01,804
and

551
00:20:02,105 --> 00:20:04,304
basically nothing that points in the other direction.

552
00:20:04,304 --> 00:20:06,585
Mhmm. Right? There's no meta analysis out there

553
00:20:06,585 --> 00:20:08,904
that says, here's the good thing that porn

554
00:20:08,904 --> 00:20:10,365
does for you or your relationship.

555
00:20:11,065 --> 00:20:12,504
It's one of the reasons why me and

556
00:20:12,504 --> 00:20:14,345
others, you know, try to talk so much

557
00:20:14,345 --> 00:20:15,944
about it and try to, you know, outside

558
00:20:15,944 --> 00:20:18,720
of religious cultures like ours, where most people

559
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:20,400
already have this kind of innate sense that

560
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,340
this is a problem and something to avoid,

561
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:24,080
trying to get that message out, like you

562
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,000
said, to people that say, is this really

563
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,480
a big deal? Does it really matter? Helping

564
00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,200
them understand that pornography and for anyone in

565
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,295
any context is a risk. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah.

566
00:20:34,295 --> 00:20:34,954
It's fascinating.

567
00:20:35,255 --> 00:20:37,734
So as I've, like obviously, I've done hundreds

568
00:20:37,734 --> 00:20:39,974
of interviews about this topic to help church

569
00:20:39,974 --> 00:20:42,695
leaders better understand these dynamics, and I've been

570
00:20:42,695 --> 00:20:46,234
really surprised about the stigma around the word

571
00:20:46,295 --> 00:20:48,589
addiction. Mhmm. I mean, I think it's

572
00:20:48,890 --> 00:20:50,650
best practice. Like, you never want someone to

573
00:20:50,650 --> 00:20:52,269
label themselves. I am an addict.

574
00:20:52,650 --> 00:20:55,609
Just, you know, any identity statement is maybe

575
00:20:55,609 --> 00:20:57,049
more powerful than we want it to be.

576
00:20:57,049 --> 00:20:59,369
But, I mean and you said, like, it's

577
00:20:59,369 --> 00:21:01,244
a ten percent. It's if if they're you

578
00:21:01,244 --> 00:21:03,644
know, addiction is happening, it's a ten percent

579
00:21:03,644 --> 00:21:05,805
of of those. Is there anything else we

580
00:21:05,805 --> 00:21:07,325
should be aware of of just this concept

581
00:21:07,325 --> 00:21:10,445
of addiction? Yeah. I think you're right. Is

582
00:21:10,445 --> 00:21:13,244
is I do think there has been kind

583
00:21:13,244 --> 00:21:15,630
of a a pendulum swing in the last

584
00:21:15,630 --> 00:21:17,630
ten years in church culture, at kind of

585
00:21:17,630 --> 00:21:19,950
all levels. That's been kind of a a

586
00:21:19,950 --> 00:21:21,170
reaction understanding

587
00:21:22,029 --> 00:21:24,109
that for a while, we were probably too

588
00:21:24,109 --> 00:21:25,350
far on one side. Right? We're kind of

589
00:21:25,390 --> 00:21:27,704
everything was addiction. Mhmm. And, you know, every

590
00:21:27,865 --> 00:21:29,784
bishop and every stake president that was meeting

591
00:21:29,784 --> 00:21:31,944
with a a young man was going, k.

592
00:21:31,944 --> 00:21:33,804
12 step program, go see a therapist.

593
00:21:34,184 --> 00:21:36,024
And as, again, as research has kind of

594
00:21:36,024 --> 00:21:37,784
matured and as some of the clinical work

595
00:21:37,784 --> 00:21:38,444
has matured,

596
00:21:38,744 --> 00:21:41,065
we do understand on the one hand that,

597
00:21:41,065 --> 00:21:43,005
like you said, the labeling of addiction

598
00:21:43,429 --> 00:21:44,869
is something we need to be careful about.

599
00:21:44,869 --> 00:21:47,109
There was a really influential study that came

600
00:21:47,109 --> 00:21:49,109
out about seven or eight years ago that

601
00:21:49,109 --> 00:21:49,769
was showing

602
00:21:50,150 --> 00:21:52,710
that the label of labeling myself as a

603
00:21:52,710 --> 00:21:53,210
pornography

604
00:21:53,509 --> 00:21:56,549
addict was actually more predictive for most people

605
00:21:56,549 --> 00:21:57,210
of depression

606
00:21:57,589 --> 00:21:59,049
than the actual porn use.

607
00:21:59,424 --> 00:22:00,244
And so,

608
00:22:00,545 --> 00:22:01,825
again, I don't think we get rid of

609
00:22:01,825 --> 00:22:03,924
it. Right? There's we don't need to pendulum

610
00:22:04,065 --> 00:22:05,365
swing the other direction.

611
00:22:05,664 --> 00:22:07,904
But I think the appropriate use is important.

612
00:22:07,904 --> 00:22:09,365
And and as church leaders

613
00:22:09,744 --> 00:22:11,445
are working with youth and adults,

614
00:22:11,970 --> 00:22:14,230
one is understanding that that is a clinical

615
00:22:14,289 --> 00:22:16,289
designation and that they should probably be careful

616
00:22:16,289 --> 00:22:18,529
about labeling someone one way or the other.

617
00:22:18,529 --> 00:22:20,130
But then two, I think, like I said,

618
00:22:20,130 --> 00:22:22,289
is recognizing that even if someone isn't in

619
00:22:22,289 --> 00:22:25,184
this ten percent of compulsive addictive use, they're

620
00:22:25,184 --> 00:22:27,585
in, you know, what my estimate is about

621
00:22:27,585 --> 00:22:29,664
thirty or forty percent of of porn users

622
00:22:29,664 --> 00:22:32,005
that have that problematic distressing use,

623
00:22:32,384 --> 00:22:34,625
that there's still a lot of resources in

624
00:22:34,625 --> 00:22:36,784
need for intervention for that group too. So

625
00:22:36,784 --> 00:22:38,730
it's not that you're either an addict and

626
00:22:38,730 --> 00:22:40,490
you need help or you're not and deal

627
00:22:40,490 --> 00:22:42,570
with it. There's resources that need to be

628
00:22:42,570 --> 00:22:43,070
happening

629
00:22:43,529 --> 00:22:45,849
on all levels and and sometimes things like

630
00:22:45,849 --> 00:22:48,410
12 step programs, group therapy, even a therapist

631
00:22:48,410 --> 00:22:49,070
can help

632
00:22:49,450 --> 00:22:50,590
across that spectrum.

633
00:22:50,914 --> 00:22:52,914
But I think understanding that there is a

634
00:22:52,914 --> 00:22:53,414
spectrum

635
00:22:53,714 --> 00:22:55,154
can help. And I think particularly in a

636
00:22:55,154 --> 00:22:58,294
church context, as a church leader, it's helping

637
00:22:58,355 --> 00:23:01,714
people or helping be, aware of when people

638
00:23:01,714 --> 00:23:03,734
are using the label to be defeatist.

639
00:23:04,059 --> 00:23:05,820
Mhmm. Right? That when I'm working with a

640
00:23:05,820 --> 00:23:07,900
youth or working with an adult, and I'm

641
00:23:07,900 --> 00:23:10,539
I'm sensing that they've labeled themselves as an

642
00:23:10,539 --> 00:23:13,119
addict, and they're using that label to say,

643
00:23:13,339 --> 00:23:15,740
what's the point? Mhmm. Why should I bother

644
00:23:15,740 --> 00:23:18,240
moving forward? I'm never gonna get past that.

645
00:23:18,255 --> 00:23:20,015
You know, obviously, in the context of of

646
00:23:20,015 --> 00:23:22,434
the gospel, we know nothing can't be overcome

647
00:23:22,815 --> 00:23:25,295
with the atonement. But I think being very

648
00:23:25,295 --> 00:23:28,494
vigilant about that and working with whether it's

649
00:23:28,494 --> 00:23:31,295
LDS Family Services or other resources with someone

650
00:23:31,295 --> 00:23:33,840
you're working with to help them understand that

651
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,320
that's a clinical designation. It's not something a

652
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,039
bishop decides. It's not something they decide. They

653
00:23:39,039 --> 00:23:41,039
should be working with mental health professionals to

654
00:23:41,039 --> 00:23:43,279
decide what this looks like. And then, like

655
00:23:43,279 --> 00:23:45,359
I said, being aware of where that label

656
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,785
might be interfering with someone's ability to grow.

657
00:23:47,785 --> 00:23:49,865
Yeah. And sort of the way I've sort

658
00:23:49,865 --> 00:23:51,545
of tried to frame it is that if

659
00:23:51,545 --> 00:23:53,384
someone goes to that, you know, labeling that

660
00:23:53,384 --> 00:23:56,184
life experience as an addiction, like, just pivoting

661
00:23:56,184 --> 00:23:57,085
as sounds like

662
00:23:57,384 --> 00:23:58,984
what you're saying is that you need Jesus

663
00:23:58,984 --> 00:24:00,825
Christ to overcome this. Right? And if you're

664
00:24:00,825 --> 00:24:02,500
like, no. It's even beyond that. Well, maybe

665
00:24:02,500 --> 00:24:04,740
you're misunderstanding what Jesus Christ can do for

666
00:24:04,740 --> 00:24:05,559
you. Right? And

667
00:24:05,940 --> 00:24:06,980
because we all need to come to a

668
00:24:06,980 --> 00:24:09,220
place where, like, I'm broken and helpless without

669
00:24:09,220 --> 00:24:11,220
Jesus Christ. And if you if you need

670
00:24:11,220 --> 00:24:13,059
to label that experience that this is an

671
00:24:13,059 --> 00:24:15,644
addiction I'm struggling with, then great. But if

672
00:24:15,724 --> 00:24:16,924
if it serves you well, but to be

673
00:24:16,924 --> 00:24:18,765
trapped by it, I think that's the the

674
00:24:18,765 --> 00:24:20,765
red flag. Right? Yeah. Because because either way,

675
00:24:20,765 --> 00:24:22,445
like I said, if we get right down

676
00:24:22,445 --> 00:24:24,205
to the science for a second, is that

677
00:24:24,205 --> 00:24:26,684
a compulsion is tied to brain chemistry. Right?

678
00:24:26,684 --> 00:24:27,505
Is that my

679
00:24:27,805 --> 00:24:30,045
neurons in my brain have wired in a

680
00:24:30,045 --> 00:24:32,309
way where where basically my brain's decided,

681
00:24:32,849 --> 00:24:35,169
don't worry about making this decision. I'll make

682
00:24:35,169 --> 00:24:36,609
it for you. Right? It's the same thing

683
00:24:36,609 --> 00:24:37,889
that happens when we get hungry, when we

684
00:24:37,889 --> 00:24:40,210
get thirsty. That's where a compulsive thought comes

685
00:24:40,210 --> 00:24:42,210
from. I get this obsessive thinking because my

686
00:24:42,210 --> 00:24:44,289
brain's trying to be like, don't think about

687
00:24:44,289 --> 00:24:46,285
it. Just do it. And so there's a

688
00:24:46,285 --> 00:24:46,785
physiological

689
00:24:47,244 --> 00:24:49,244
component to it, but that doesn't mean, like

690
00:24:49,244 --> 00:24:51,265
you said, that I don't need the savior.

691
00:24:51,404 --> 00:24:53,265
You know, just like if I was overcoming

692
00:24:53,884 --> 00:24:54,945
a chronic illness,

693
00:24:55,325 --> 00:24:58,065
chronic pain, right, is that the atonement

694
00:24:58,445 --> 00:24:59,345
is all encompassing.

695
00:24:59,859 --> 00:25:03,639
It's about mental struggles, emotional struggles, sin,

696
00:25:03,940 --> 00:25:06,740
physical pain. Right? The savior experienced all of

697
00:25:06,740 --> 00:25:09,059
our physical pain in that moment in a

698
00:25:09,059 --> 00:25:10,279
way that we can't comprehend.

699
00:25:10,740 --> 00:25:12,440
And so even for the addict

700
00:25:12,784 --> 00:25:15,024
with that brain chemistry piece, there is an

701
00:25:15,024 --> 00:25:17,664
element where the atonement in Jesus Christ can

702
00:25:17,664 --> 00:25:20,224
help through that and help the healing process.

703
00:25:20,224 --> 00:25:22,065
And part of that is helping with the

704
00:25:22,065 --> 00:25:24,464
hope that my brain can change because we

705
00:25:24,464 --> 00:25:26,144
also have research on that, by the way.

706
00:25:26,144 --> 00:25:28,769
That with behavioral addictions, with the right intervention,

707
00:25:29,230 --> 00:25:31,069
with a lot of behavioral therapy and other

708
00:25:31,069 --> 00:25:33,170
things, that the brain is a

709
00:25:33,549 --> 00:25:34,049
marvelous

710
00:25:34,589 --> 00:25:36,049
organism. Right? Or an organ.

711
00:25:36,670 --> 00:25:38,349
God created it that way. That it can

712
00:25:38,349 --> 00:25:39,789
change one way. It can change the other

713
00:25:39,789 --> 00:25:42,515
way. And so having that hope via the

714
00:25:42,515 --> 00:25:45,154
atonement in Jesus Christ that, hey. My brain

715
00:25:45,154 --> 00:25:46,835
can get better. Yeah. And I can get

716
00:25:46,835 --> 00:25:48,595
better if I'm an addict. And if I'm

717
00:25:48,595 --> 00:25:51,394
not quite there and it's more of, like

718
00:25:51,394 --> 00:25:54,115
I said, the distress and the bad habit,

719
00:25:54,115 --> 00:25:56,099
and I'm having a hard time coping with

720
00:25:56,099 --> 00:25:57,619
stress in my life, and I keep turning

721
00:25:57,619 --> 00:25:59,940
to this. It's the same thing is that

722
00:25:59,940 --> 00:26:01,539
I'm turning to Christ, and I'm turning to

723
00:26:01,539 --> 00:26:02,200
the savior

724
00:26:02,579 --> 00:26:05,059
to give me hope that I can find

725
00:26:05,059 --> 00:26:05,880
other outlets

726
00:26:06,259 --> 00:26:08,599
rather than pornography, that I can use resources

727
00:26:08,660 --> 00:26:11,454
and social resources around me to find love

728
00:26:11,454 --> 00:26:13,375
and connection and build that love and connection

729
00:26:13,375 --> 00:26:15,694
with my heavenly father and with Jesus Christ.

730
00:26:15,694 --> 00:26:17,634
And that that can give me the strength

731
00:26:18,095 --> 00:26:20,014
to turn right when maybe I keep turning

732
00:26:20,014 --> 00:26:22,494
left. Yeah. Let's shift into the context with,

733
00:26:22,494 --> 00:26:23,234
like, youth,

734
00:26:23,615 --> 00:26:26,220
especially, you know, along these lines of using

735
00:26:26,220 --> 00:26:27,519
terms like addiction.

736
00:26:27,900 --> 00:26:29,740
I mean, in the youth context, I just

737
00:26:29,740 --> 00:26:32,220
can't especially with the immature brain that's still

738
00:26:32,220 --> 00:26:34,220
developing and it's, like, it's going through, like,

739
00:26:34,220 --> 00:26:36,319
daily identity crises, right,

740
00:26:36,779 --> 00:26:38,794
where it's just never helpful

741
00:26:39,575 --> 00:26:41,434
to put a youth in that context

742
00:26:41,734 --> 00:26:43,974
immediately of, like, oh, this is an addiction.

743
00:26:43,974 --> 00:26:45,754
We need to address this as an addiction

744
00:26:45,974 --> 00:26:47,974
when in reality, it's just adolescence. And, I

745
00:26:47,974 --> 00:26:50,534
mean, the mortality they live in in 2025

746
00:26:50,534 --> 00:26:53,140
is overwhelming. You know? So what what else

747
00:26:53,140 --> 00:26:54,980
come to mind as far as understanding is

748
00:26:54,980 --> 00:26:57,539
the context of youth? Yeah. Is I think

749
00:26:57,539 --> 00:26:59,700
there's a couple key things there. And and

750
00:26:59,700 --> 00:27:01,619
and one is, I think you're alluding to

751
00:27:01,619 --> 00:27:04,099
that when it comes to pornography, there's two,

752
00:27:04,099 --> 00:27:06,039
I think, things for church leaders to understand

753
00:27:06,339 --> 00:27:07,640
when they're working with youth.

754
00:27:08,075 --> 00:27:10,474
One is the normative context of this. And

755
00:27:10,474 --> 00:27:12,734
and what I mean is even in LDS

756
00:27:13,115 --> 00:27:14,255
context and cultures,

757
00:27:14,875 --> 00:27:17,275
exposure rates to pornography by the time someone's

758
00:27:17,275 --> 00:27:19,914
18 are almost a %, particularly for our

759
00:27:19,914 --> 00:27:21,609
our young men. And so what that means

760
00:27:21,609 --> 00:27:23,250
as a bishop or a state president or

761
00:27:23,250 --> 00:27:25,769
a young men's leader is that most of

762
00:27:25,769 --> 00:27:28,509
my young men are gonna come across pornography

763
00:27:28,809 --> 00:27:30,730
at some point while I'm over them as

764
00:27:30,730 --> 00:27:31,309
a stewardship.

765
00:27:31,609 --> 00:27:33,049
And I think that changes a little bit

766
00:27:33,049 --> 00:27:35,035
of the context because instead of as a

767
00:27:35,035 --> 00:27:37,434
church leader, kind of crossing my fingers and

768
00:27:37,434 --> 00:27:39,134
hoping I can get them all through it,

769
00:27:39,275 --> 00:27:41,134
it says I have to be proactive.

770
00:27:41,515 --> 00:27:43,535
I have to be proactive in the lessons,

771
00:27:43,595 --> 00:27:44,575
in the conversations.

772
00:27:45,195 --> 00:27:46,795
And again, that doesn't mean in every youth

773
00:27:46,795 --> 00:27:49,115
interview, I'm drilling every single young man like,

774
00:27:49,115 --> 00:27:51,269
hey. Here's the 10 porn questions I'm gonna

775
00:27:51,269 --> 00:27:53,029
ask you. That's that's a it's not a

776
00:27:53,029 --> 00:27:54,869
good recipe to be on friendly terms with

777
00:27:54,869 --> 00:27:56,710
all the parents. Right. But again, if I

778
00:27:56,710 --> 00:27:58,710
just have that context that, hey, even if

779
00:27:58,710 --> 00:28:00,630
they're not talking to me, even if they

780
00:28:00,630 --> 00:28:02,724
haven't come to me, you know, when I'm

781
00:28:02,724 --> 00:28:04,244
dealing with my priests, when I'm dealing with

782
00:28:04,244 --> 00:28:06,804
my 17, 18 year old young women, most

783
00:28:06,804 --> 00:28:09,204
of them have seen porn. Many of them

784
00:28:09,204 --> 00:28:11,525
are probably using porn on a regular basis.

785
00:28:11,525 --> 00:28:12,744
So what am I doing

786
00:28:13,204 --> 00:28:14,265
to help them

787
00:28:14,789 --> 00:28:17,509
shape their lives, turn to Christ, make sure

788
00:28:17,509 --> 00:28:19,990
it doesn't become a lifelong habit? I think

789
00:28:19,990 --> 00:28:21,990
that's one important context. And the other important

790
00:28:21,990 --> 00:28:24,630
context is recognizing that porn is a very

791
00:28:24,630 --> 00:28:27,210
scary thing in all religious cultures because

792
00:28:27,615 --> 00:28:28,595
sex and chastity

793
00:28:28,894 --> 00:28:30,815
is a scary thing. Mhmm. And so anything

794
00:28:30,815 --> 00:28:32,894
kind of connected to that. Right? And we

795
00:28:32,894 --> 00:28:34,974
understand in a gospel context, and this is,

796
00:28:34,974 --> 00:28:37,295
I think, an appropriate thing we teach our

797
00:28:37,295 --> 00:28:39,535
youth that violations of the law of chastity

798
00:28:39,535 --> 00:28:41,339
are a really serious thing. I do think,

799
00:28:41,339 --> 00:28:42,779
and this is another topic we can get

800
00:28:42,779 --> 00:28:45,179
into at some point, sometimes we forget the

801
00:28:45,179 --> 00:28:47,339
other side of that equation, which is it's

802
00:28:47,339 --> 00:28:48,779
a really serious thing so that you can

803
00:28:48,779 --> 00:28:49,759
have this beautiful,

804
00:28:50,299 --> 00:28:53,599
wonderful, bonding, connective sexual relationship with your spouse

805
00:28:53,660 --> 00:28:55,599
someday. We forget the positive message.

806
00:28:55,945 --> 00:28:57,465
But when we understand that there's a lot

807
00:28:57,465 --> 00:28:58,684
of fear and anxiety,

808
00:28:59,305 --> 00:29:01,705
we understand that when I'm dealing with or

809
00:29:01,705 --> 00:29:03,545
talking to a youth about this topic and

810
00:29:03,545 --> 00:29:05,085
they've come to me and they've confessed,

811
00:29:05,625 --> 00:29:06,125
that

812
00:29:06,505 --> 00:29:09,144
there is already going to be a lot

813
00:29:09,144 --> 00:29:10,730
of fear in that conversation.

814
00:29:11,109 --> 00:29:12,630
Not just fear of talking to a bishop

815
00:29:12,630 --> 00:29:14,549
about something or a stake president or another,

816
00:29:14,869 --> 00:29:17,269
leader, but fear of what does this mean

817
00:29:17,269 --> 00:29:18,869
for my future? What does this mean for

818
00:29:18,869 --> 00:29:20,630
my family? What does this mean for my

819
00:29:20,630 --> 00:29:22,924
even ability to anyone wanna date me someday?

820
00:29:22,924 --> 00:29:24,204
There's Or go on a mission. Right? Or

821
00:29:24,204 --> 00:29:25,484
go on a mission. There's gonna be all

822
00:29:25,484 --> 00:29:28,464
this fear. And so I think understanding that

823
00:29:28,765 --> 00:29:30,464
should help a lot of church leaders

824
00:29:30,845 --> 00:29:33,325
as they're having these conversations with youth, make

825
00:29:33,325 --> 00:29:36,119
sure that the conversation is always positive. And

826
00:29:36,119 --> 00:29:37,720
this is a thing I talk to parents

827
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:39,160
about as well because I think it goes

828
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:40,779
both ways, is that

829
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,579
conversations about pornography should not be

830
00:29:44,039 --> 00:29:46,119
scary conversations. I mean, they're going to be

831
00:29:46,119 --> 00:29:47,880
innately Mhmm. With the kids because of the

832
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,744
anxiety they're gonna feel. But what can I

833
00:29:50,744 --> 00:29:53,085
do as an adult leader, as a parent,

834
00:29:53,304 --> 00:29:54,365
to make the conversation

835
00:29:54,825 --> 00:29:56,984
positive, to make them walk out of that

836
00:29:56,984 --> 00:29:57,484
conversation

837
00:29:57,944 --> 00:30:00,825
feeling better about themselves, better about the relationship

838
00:30:00,825 --> 00:30:01,884
they have with me,

839
00:30:02,380 --> 00:30:04,619
particularly when it comes to pornography? Because there's

840
00:30:04,619 --> 00:30:06,299
not a lot of topics that are scarier

841
00:30:06,299 --> 00:30:08,000
for you to talk to a leader about

842
00:30:08,220 --> 00:30:10,299
than that. And so if and I talk

843
00:30:10,299 --> 00:30:11,980
to bishops and and other church leaders about

844
00:30:11,980 --> 00:30:13,740
this sometimes that, you know, in that first

845
00:30:13,740 --> 00:30:14,240
conversation

846
00:30:14,644 --> 00:30:16,085
where maybe the youth kind of drops the

847
00:30:16,085 --> 00:30:18,164
bomb in an interview and other contacts of

848
00:30:18,164 --> 00:30:19,865
like, hey. Yeah. I've looked at porn.

849
00:30:20,325 --> 00:30:22,565
Recognize they're testing you. Right? They wanna see

850
00:30:22,565 --> 00:30:23,384
how you react.

851
00:30:23,764 --> 00:30:25,444
And, really, the main thing you want them

852
00:30:25,444 --> 00:30:27,859
to walk away with is not this wonderful

853
00:30:27,859 --> 00:30:29,619
plan you've laid out to them about how

854
00:30:29,619 --> 00:30:31,139
to avoid it in the future and have

855
00:30:31,139 --> 00:30:32,819
all the answers, but you want them to

856
00:30:32,819 --> 00:30:34,579
walk away saying, I could talk to that

857
00:30:34,579 --> 00:30:36,500
person again. Yeah. I could come back to

858
00:30:36,500 --> 00:30:38,179
that person again about that. If you've done

859
00:30:38,179 --> 00:30:39,700
that, you've done your job in the first

860
00:30:39,700 --> 00:30:41,865
conversation. Yeah. Yeah. And almost this feeling of

861
00:30:42,025 --> 00:30:43,225
I I made this a wrong way to

862
00:30:43,225 --> 00:30:44,505
say it, but almost like a shrug like,

863
00:30:44,505 --> 00:30:46,424
oh, yeah. So what? Like, almost like this

864
00:30:46,424 --> 00:30:48,345
isn't a big this isn't a hard thing

865
00:30:48,345 --> 00:30:49,625
to talk about. I can talk about it.

866
00:30:49,625 --> 00:30:51,484
Like, tell me more about that. Right? And

867
00:30:51,545 --> 00:30:53,465
and I think that creates that safety that's

868
00:30:53,465 --> 00:30:56,049
that's needed. And it it's finding that balance.

869
00:30:56,049 --> 00:30:57,569
You know, when I do firesides and other

870
00:30:57,569 --> 00:31:00,210
things with youth or with church leaders, I

871
00:31:00,210 --> 00:31:01,809
always start with I tend to I like

872
00:31:01,809 --> 00:31:03,169
to throw out a lot of quotes from

873
00:31:03,169 --> 00:31:05,009
our church leader, our general church leaders about

874
00:31:05,009 --> 00:31:05,509
pornography

875
00:31:05,970 --> 00:31:08,275
that are no holds barred, no question asked.

876
00:31:08,275 --> 00:31:09,955
This is really bad. Yeah. You lose the

877
00:31:09,955 --> 00:31:12,375
Holy Ghost, you lose access to priesthood power,

878
00:31:12,434 --> 00:31:14,434
you lose your connection with God. It is

879
00:31:14,434 --> 00:31:16,995
really, really, really bad. Right? And I start

880
00:31:16,995 --> 00:31:19,250
that way to then say and we talk

881
00:31:19,250 --> 00:31:21,329
about a lot of things like that. Right?

882
00:31:21,329 --> 00:31:23,970
And if I watch certain movies, I lose

883
00:31:23,970 --> 00:31:25,889
connection to God and the Holy Ghost. If

884
00:31:25,889 --> 00:31:27,730
I start swearing, I lose connection to the

885
00:31:27,730 --> 00:31:30,130
Holy Ghost. I lose priesthood power. If I,

886
00:31:30,130 --> 00:31:31,734
you know, have a little sip of coffee

887
00:31:31,734 --> 00:31:33,095
because my friend is bugging me, hey. I

888
00:31:33,095 --> 00:31:34,934
wanna know what a what a frappuccino tastes

889
00:31:34,934 --> 00:31:36,694
like. I lose the Holy Ghost. I I

890
00:31:36,855 --> 00:31:39,194
there's all these things, but with pornography,

891
00:31:39,494 --> 00:31:41,414
it feels so much heavier. And so we

892
00:31:41,414 --> 00:31:43,575
have to find that balance between, yes, it's

893
00:31:43,575 --> 00:31:45,980
a sin. It's good that if if I'm

894
00:31:45,980 --> 00:31:47,179
your bishop, it's good that you came and

895
00:31:47,179 --> 00:31:48,460
talk to me about this so I can

896
00:31:48,460 --> 00:31:50,079
help you with the repentance process

897
00:31:50,460 --> 00:31:51,839
because you need to repent.

898
00:31:52,140 --> 00:31:53,740
And you need to come back to God

899
00:31:53,740 --> 00:31:55,359
and reestablish that connection.

900
00:31:55,980 --> 00:31:57,599
But to your point,

901
00:31:58,054 --> 00:31:59,615
we should be doing that about all sorts

902
00:31:59,615 --> 00:32:02,855
of things. Right. This shouldn't feel like it's

903
00:32:02,855 --> 00:32:06,694
five times heavier or harder or bigger to

904
00:32:06,694 --> 00:32:07,755
our youth because

905
00:32:08,134 --> 00:32:10,535
the reality is this is the most likely

906
00:32:10,535 --> 00:32:12,794
thing that our youth are gonna do

907
00:32:13,250 --> 00:32:15,650
that are sinful. It it is the you

908
00:32:15,650 --> 00:32:17,410
know, unless you wanna kinda go into, like,

909
00:32:17,410 --> 00:32:19,090
the where is that line with swearing and

910
00:32:19,090 --> 00:32:20,769
some of those kind of things. Yeah. But

911
00:32:20,769 --> 00:32:22,549
in terms of their baptismal

912
00:32:22,850 --> 00:32:25,184
and priesthood covenants that our youth have made,

913
00:32:25,345 --> 00:32:27,985
this is by far the most likely thing

914
00:32:27,985 --> 00:32:29,125
that they're gonna do

915
00:32:29,424 --> 00:32:31,424
that they need to repent of. Mhmm. And

916
00:32:31,424 --> 00:32:33,265
so, again, I get back to being normative.

917
00:32:33,265 --> 00:32:35,184
Right? Normative doesn't mean healthy. It doesn't mean

918
00:32:35,184 --> 00:32:35,924
you diminish

919
00:32:36,384 --> 00:32:38,144
that this is a a big deal when

920
00:32:38,144 --> 00:32:40,325
it comes to my spirituality and my covenants,

921
00:32:40,779 --> 00:32:42,940
but it it needs to be done in

922
00:32:42,940 --> 00:32:44,619
a context that this is just like all

923
00:32:44,619 --> 00:32:47,019
these other mistakes that we make. And what

924
00:32:47,019 --> 00:32:49,500
that does on this topic is it helps

925
00:32:49,500 --> 00:32:51,759
youth not hide because when they hide,

926
00:32:52,299 --> 00:32:54,940
that's when they're much more likely to develop

927
00:32:54,940 --> 00:32:58,394
that negative compulsive pattern over a decade into

928
00:32:58,394 --> 00:32:58,894
adulthood.

929
00:32:59,275 --> 00:33:01,275
And now this isn't just something that, you

930
00:33:01,275 --> 00:33:02,875
know, had a couple issues with when I

931
00:33:02,875 --> 00:33:04,075
was a youth and I talked to my

932
00:33:04,075 --> 00:33:06,394
bishop, talked to my parents, got past it,

933
00:33:06,394 --> 00:33:07,535
was never an issue.

934
00:33:08,039 --> 00:33:10,519
Now instead, I'm a 20, 30 year old

935
00:33:10,519 --> 00:33:12,600
with two decades of struggling with this trying

936
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:14,440
to decide, do I tell my spouse? Do

937
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,360
I not? We just moved. Do I wanna

938
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:17,960
talk to this bishop about it because the

939
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:19,480
last guy took my temple recommend? You know?

940
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:21,494
So you get this whole kind of thing

941
00:33:21,494 --> 00:33:23,095
that I think we we're not gonna avoid

942
00:33:23,095 --> 00:33:24,694
all of that. There's still gonna be a

943
00:33:24,694 --> 00:33:26,534
group that struggles with it. But I do

944
00:33:26,534 --> 00:33:28,214
think we can avoid a lot of it

945
00:33:28,214 --> 00:33:30,474
if we just try to keep those conversations,

946
00:33:30,615 --> 00:33:32,394
like you said, light, positive,

947
00:33:32,694 --> 00:33:35,649
connected to core gospel principles. Yeah. Like, the

948
00:33:35,649 --> 00:33:37,589
the buzzword that keeps coming is that normalization

949
00:33:37,730 --> 00:33:40,769
of things. Like, we're not normalizing necessarily, like,

950
00:33:40,769 --> 00:33:42,289
pornography use or that it's not a big

951
00:33:42,289 --> 00:33:44,869
deal, but we're normalizing sin, which hopefully normalizes

952
00:33:45,009 --> 00:33:47,170
repentance. Right? Mhmm. We're all sinning. We're all

953
00:33:47,170 --> 00:33:49,434
repenting. Yeah. So what does that look like

954
00:33:49,434 --> 00:33:51,355
for you? Let's talk about that. Right? Yeah.

955
00:33:51,355 --> 00:33:53,835
Yeah. That's powerful. Anything about, like because, you

956
00:33:53,835 --> 00:33:54,575
know, shame

957
00:33:54,954 --> 00:33:56,875
is a big component in this, and but

958
00:33:56,875 --> 00:33:58,634
shame can feel very abstract at times. I

959
00:33:58,634 --> 00:34:00,394
mean, how how do you articulate the concept

960
00:34:00,394 --> 00:34:02,720
of shame or or what's what's happening there?

961
00:34:02,799 --> 00:34:04,240
So it's I I like talking about this

962
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,119
concept because we we've got every once in

963
00:34:06,119 --> 00:34:07,039
a while, like, I know I think a

964
00:34:07,039 --> 00:34:08,639
lot of research is cool that other people

965
00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:10,320
don't. But I I do think this is

966
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:11,839
a topic. Such a professor. I know. Well,

967
00:34:11,839 --> 00:34:13,280
we have some research that I think most

968
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,039
people will think is cool. Okay. So we

969
00:34:15,039 --> 00:34:17,385
actually have some social science research now on

970
00:34:17,385 --> 00:34:19,005
this topic and a couple others

971
00:34:20,105 --> 00:34:22,684
that separates the idea of guilt and shame.

972
00:34:22,744 --> 00:34:25,724
Mhmm. And the idea is is that guilt

973
00:34:25,784 --> 00:34:27,324
is when I feel bad

974
00:34:27,704 --> 00:34:29,565
in a way that motivates me.

975
00:34:29,930 --> 00:34:31,849
Shame is when I feel bad in a

976
00:34:31,849 --> 00:34:34,329
way that demotivates me. That's great. And I

977
00:34:34,329 --> 00:34:36,730
really like that distinction in the gospel context

978
00:34:36,730 --> 00:34:39,289
because we do talk a lot about avoiding

979
00:34:39,289 --> 00:34:41,050
shame and don't shame people and don't shame.

980
00:34:41,050 --> 00:34:42,730
But then sometimes there's a pushback and said,

981
00:34:42,730 --> 00:34:45,125
but aren't we supposed to feel bad about

982
00:34:45,125 --> 00:34:46,644
sin? Aren't we supposed to feel bad about

983
00:34:46,644 --> 00:34:48,565
things? And so I think this is actually

984
00:34:48,565 --> 00:34:50,485
a a great lesson that a bishop or

985
00:34:50,485 --> 00:34:52,644
other, you you know, woman's president could do

986
00:34:52,644 --> 00:34:53,784
is the difference between

987
00:34:54,085 --> 00:34:55,065
godly guilt

988
00:34:55,445 --> 00:34:58,744
and earthly shame. And help youth understand

989
00:34:59,260 --> 00:35:01,660
that when we make mistakes, what Satan wants

990
00:35:01,660 --> 00:35:03,579
you to feel is shame. He wants you

991
00:35:03,579 --> 00:35:05,739
to feel like you're not good enough for

992
00:35:05,739 --> 00:35:07,980
God. That you can't be fixed. That you

993
00:35:07,980 --> 00:35:10,000
shouldn't come to Christ and use the atonement

994
00:35:10,300 --> 00:35:12,264
because what's the point? That's what shame does.

995
00:35:12,264 --> 00:35:14,505
Like I said, it demotivates us. It makes

996
00:35:14,505 --> 00:35:16,844
us feel like we are just bad people.

997
00:35:16,985 --> 00:35:19,065
And we know that's what the adversary wants

998
00:35:19,065 --> 00:35:21,304
us to feel. God wants us to feel

999
00:35:21,304 --> 00:35:23,704
guilt when we do something bad because we

1000
00:35:23,704 --> 00:35:25,144
want to be better. We want to live

1001
00:35:25,144 --> 00:35:27,059
up to our covenants. We want to be

1002
00:35:27,140 --> 00:35:28,820
like Christ asked us to be. We want

1003
00:35:28,820 --> 00:35:30,500
to be perfect even though we know we

1004
00:35:30,500 --> 00:35:33,539
can't. And so when we feel bad with

1005
00:35:33,539 --> 00:35:34,760
an eternal perspective

1006
00:35:35,219 --> 00:35:38,019
and understand that because of the atonement, because

1007
00:35:38,019 --> 00:35:40,980
God and Christ make up any deficiency that

1008
00:35:40,980 --> 00:35:41,640
I have,

1009
00:35:42,174 --> 00:35:43,855
that even though I feel bad and I've

1010
00:35:43,855 --> 00:35:46,014
made a mistake, I can get better. I

1011
00:35:46,014 --> 00:35:48,335
can change. I can become more like God.

1012
00:35:48,335 --> 00:35:50,574
I can do better next time. When we

1013
00:35:50,574 --> 00:35:52,734
feel guilt in that way, like I said,

1014
00:35:52,734 --> 00:35:54,654
it motivates us. I I think it helps

1015
00:35:54,654 --> 00:35:56,974
us understand the sacrament better and engage with

1016
00:35:56,974 --> 00:35:59,110
the sacrament as an ordinance in in a

1017
00:35:59,110 --> 00:36:01,449
stronger and healthier way, and it helps

1018
00:36:01,909 --> 00:36:03,909
us build that relationship with Christ and build

1019
00:36:03,909 --> 00:36:06,070
that relationship with God. And so I I

1020
00:36:06,070 --> 00:36:06,889
think that

1021
00:36:07,190 --> 00:36:08,250
doctrinal distinction

1022
00:36:08,550 --> 00:36:09,989
is a really helpful way to think about

1023
00:36:09,989 --> 00:36:12,144
it from a church leader perspective in terms

1024
00:36:12,144 --> 00:36:14,224
of lessons and firesides and even one on

1025
00:36:14,224 --> 00:36:14,885
one conversations

1026
00:36:15,345 --> 00:36:18,224
is to help people understand that and really

1027
00:36:18,224 --> 00:36:19,744
ask a key question, I think, in a

1028
00:36:19,744 --> 00:36:22,144
lot of youth discussions is when you feel

1029
00:36:22,144 --> 00:36:23,664
really bad. Right? When I've got a youth

1030
00:36:23,664 --> 00:36:25,825
that might be in tears and coming to

1031
00:36:25,825 --> 00:36:27,619
me with this is to ask the follow-up

1032
00:36:27,619 --> 00:36:29,940
question of, k. I you know, you're feeling

1033
00:36:29,940 --> 00:36:32,760
really sad. You're feeling all these negative feelings.

1034
00:36:33,140 --> 00:36:34,680
What does it make you want to do

1035
00:36:35,059 --> 00:36:37,140
next? What's the next step for you? And

1036
00:36:37,140 --> 00:36:38,739
if you get a youth that's saying, I

1037
00:36:38,739 --> 00:36:40,119
don't know. I feel helpless.

1038
00:36:40,875 --> 00:36:43,135
Then let's have a conversation about the adversary

1039
00:36:43,275 --> 00:36:44,795
and how he wants you to feel this

1040
00:36:44,795 --> 00:36:46,474
way and how he can feel different. If

1041
00:36:46,474 --> 00:36:48,155
it's it makes me want to do better.

1042
00:36:48,155 --> 00:36:49,994
It makes me frustrated because I I'm I'm

1043
00:36:49,994 --> 00:36:51,275
mad at myself and I want to do

1044
00:36:51,275 --> 00:36:52,795
better next time. Great. That's how you should

1045
00:36:52,795 --> 00:36:54,635
feel. Yeah. Let's talk about how that can

1046
00:36:54,635 --> 00:36:57,239
be part of a healthy repentance process. That's

1047
00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,000
cool. I like that. My mind just goes

1048
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,000
to, like, you go throughout the scriptures and

1049
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,800
find stories where in one instance, where did

1050
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,079
an individual actually become motivated after that mistake,

1051
00:37:07,079 --> 00:37:10,025
whether it was Nephi or, you know, Alma

1052
00:37:10,025 --> 00:37:12,265
the younger where, like, actually, that shifted them

1053
00:37:12,265 --> 00:37:14,425
into a direction where they motivated them in

1054
00:37:14,425 --> 00:37:16,985
a positive direction that that was maybe there

1055
00:37:17,065 --> 00:37:18,825
there's no shame there or, you know, it'd

1056
00:37:18,825 --> 00:37:19,805
be worth exploring

1057
00:37:20,265 --> 00:37:22,345
that. Anything about, like, as as as a

1058
00:37:22,345 --> 00:37:23,644
church leader, it's easy

1059
00:37:23,989 --> 00:37:25,849
to get hyper focused on the behavior,

1060
00:37:26,150 --> 00:37:28,710
like, when we're talking about about going on

1061
00:37:28,710 --> 00:37:31,190
a mission. Right? And sometimes leaders will default

1062
00:37:31,190 --> 00:37:33,429
to this, like, we want six months of

1063
00:37:33,429 --> 00:37:35,849
sobriety before we even begin to talk about

1064
00:37:36,069 --> 00:37:37,695
you considering a mission and things like that.

1065
00:37:37,695 --> 00:37:38,815
And there's a lot of shame in that

1066
00:37:38,815 --> 00:37:40,494
as well. Anything come to mind as far

1067
00:37:40,494 --> 00:37:42,434
as helping people overcome it?

1068
00:37:42,894 --> 00:37:44,914
Because, you know, we want them to be

1069
00:37:45,295 --> 00:37:47,614
prepared, but we also know, like, it's a

1070
00:37:47,614 --> 00:37:49,055
tough world we live in, and we kinda

1071
00:37:49,055 --> 00:37:50,255
just need to move on with these good

1072
00:37:50,255 --> 00:37:51,715
things. And sometimes the mission

1073
00:37:52,019 --> 00:37:53,940
is just the context of that mission. Being

1074
00:37:53,940 --> 00:37:56,260
in the service, daily service can pull them

1075
00:37:56,260 --> 00:37:57,800
out of this compulsivity.

1076
00:37:58,260 --> 00:38:00,260
Yeah. Two things come to mind that are

1077
00:38:00,260 --> 00:38:01,000
kinda connected.

1078
00:38:01,380 --> 00:38:03,559
One is, I I think, a really critical

1079
00:38:04,135 --> 00:38:06,295
question or series of questions that church leaders

1080
00:38:06,295 --> 00:38:07,755
can ask in these kind of situations

1081
00:38:08,295 --> 00:38:10,695
is to not fixate, like you said, on

1082
00:38:10,695 --> 00:38:12,454
the behavior in terms of, okay. Like, give

1083
00:38:12,454 --> 00:38:14,215
me this list of, like, every video you

1084
00:38:14,215 --> 00:38:16,055
watched and every time it's happened. You know,

1085
00:38:16,055 --> 00:38:17,894
sometimes that context can be helpful in terms

1086
00:38:17,894 --> 00:38:20,010
of understanding the continuum, like we said, of

1087
00:38:20,010 --> 00:38:20,750
of behavior.

1088
00:38:21,050 --> 00:38:23,610
But getting more into the why and understanding

1089
00:38:23,610 --> 00:38:24,110
that

1090
00:38:24,969 --> 00:38:27,210
there's a lot of reasons why youth and

1091
00:38:27,210 --> 00:38:29,849
adults turn to pornography. And and sometimes it

1092
00:38:29,849 --> 00:38:32,500
is just sexual attraction, and I was on

1093
00:38:32,500 --> 00:38:34,640
social media, and I saw this, and it

1094
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:36,780
led here and led here and led there.

1095
00:38:36,780 --> 00:38:38,921
But there's a lot of other reasons. Sometimes

1096
00:38:38,921 --> 00:38:41,061
it's very emotional. Right? As I was I

1097
00:38:41,061 --> 00:38:43,202
was sad, I was frustrated. This is a

1098
00:38:43,202 --> 00:38:45,342
coping mechanism. Sometimes it can be anxiety based.

1099
00:38:45,342 --> 00:38:48,139
It can be stress relief. Sometimes, you know,

1100
00:38:48,359 --> 00:38:50,440
particularly with adults, but sometimes with with young

1101
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,679
adults too and and and youth, it can

1102
00:38:52,679 --> 00:38:54,519
be relationship based. Like, hey. I've, you know,

1103
00:38:54,519 --> 00:38:56,359
been dating my girlfriend for a year and

1104
00:38:56,359 --> 00:38:58,839
then, you know, we started kissing and and

1105
00:38:58,839 --> 00:39:00,280
I got frustrated with her. And so then

1106
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:01,655
I turned this direction, or even we got

1107
00:39:01,655 --> 00:39:03,195
in a fight, and I turned this direction.

1108
00:39:03,655 --> 00:39:06,554
And asking that that question of why

1109
00:39:07,014 --> 00:39:09,494
can help the next piece, which is what

1110
00:39:09,494 --> 00:39:12,375
do we do? Right? And, obviously, bishops and

1111
00:39:12,375 --> 00:39:15,114
state presidents have that mantle to receive

1112
00:39:15,549 --> 00:39:18,589
spiritual godly revelation about things like how long

1113
00:39:18,589 --> 00:39:19,569
till this happens.

1114
00:39:20,029 --> 00:39:22,369
But in the context then of giving counsel

1115
00:39:22,909 --> 00:39:25,710
of here's some advice in the meantime of

1116
00:39:25,710 --> 00:39:27,389
things that I think will help you avoid

1117
00:39:27,389 --> 00:39:28,130
this behavior,

1118
00:39:28,614 --> 00:39:31,094
that can really differ based on the motivation

1119
00:39:31,094 --> 00:39:32,614
and the why. Right? And if I have

1120
00:39:32,614 --> 00:39:34,934
a youth that as I'm talking to them

1121
00:39:34,934 --> 00:39:36,855
about this, it becomes really clear that, like,

1122
00:39:36,855 --> 00:39:38,715
yeah, like, when I'm having a bad day

1123
00:39:38,934 --> 00:39:40,775
at work or with my parents, that's when

1124
00:39:40,775 --> 00:39:41,755
these thoughts come

1125
00:39:42,090 --> 00:39:44,489
is great. Now let's talk about what counsel

1126
00:39:44,489 --> 00:39:46,809
I can give you to find other outlets

1127
00:39:46,809 --> 00:39:49,210
for those negative thoughts or some of the

1128
00:39:49,210 --> 00:39:51,530
mood stuff. If it's stress, how can we

1129
00:39:51,530 --> 00:39:53,450
get better stress relief? If it is sexual

1130
00:39:53,450 --> 00:39:55,824
attraction, let's talk about that. Right? Because each

1131
00:39:55,824 --> 00:39:57,265
one of those, we're really starting to talk

1132
00:39:57,265 --> 00:39:58,324
about what are called triggers.

1133
00:39:58,864 --> 00:40:00,085
Right? What are the triggers

1134
00:40:00,545 --> 00:40:03,105
that starts my mind on this loop? And

1135
00:40:03,105 --> 00:40:05,605
and then this is similar for compulsive use

1136
00:40:05,824 --> 00:40:08,144
or problematic use or really any use. Like,

1137
00:40:08,144 --> 00:40:10,005
even a youth that's like, hey. It happened

1138
00:40:10,065 --> 00:40:12,700
three times last year. It happened twice last

1139
00:40:12,700 --> 00:40:14,619
year. You know, that that's even further along

1140
00:40:14,619 --> 00:40:15,360
that continuum.

1141
00:40:15,820 --> 00:40:17,660
You know, we have this very basic principle

1142
00:40:17,660 --> 00:40:20,940
in social science that thought precedes behavior. That

1143
00:40:20,940 --> 00:40:23,260
before you do something, you're almost always thinking

1144
00:40:23,260 --> 00:40:24,775
about it. Like I said, it's one that's

1145
00:40:24,775 --> 00:40:27,114
kind of unique about addiction is it's kind

1146
00:40:27,175 --> 00:40:29,574
of short wires that thinking process. You start

1147
00:40:29,574 --> 00:40:31,335
doing stuff, which is why it feels so

1148
00:40:31,335 --> 00:40:33,755
helpless as an addict. But for most youth,

1149
00:40:33,974 --> 00:40:34,795
like I said,

1150
00:40:35,094 --> 00:40:37,335
they oftentimes and if you talk to anyone

1151
00:40:37,335 --> 00:40:39,335
that that struggle with pornography will tell you

1152
00:40:39,335 --> 00:40:41,650
that, yeah, like, what happened is this was

1153
00:40:41,650 --> 00:40:43,890
the trigger for me. I started thinking about

1154
00:40:43,890 --> 00:40:45,570
this. I started thinking about this. And then

1155
00:40:45,570 --> 00:40:47,010
over the course of an hour or two

1156
00:40:47,010 --> 00:40:47,989
or six hours,

1157
00:40:48,449 --> 00:40:50,849
I ended up here. And so a lot

1158
00:40:50,849 --> 00:40:53,204
of times, the best advice, church leaders, and

1159
00:40:53,204 --> 00:40:54,644
it's the same sort of advice that a

1160
00:40:54,644 --> 00:40:56,885
lot of commissions will be giving people, is,

1161
00:40:56,885 --> 00:40:58,885
like I said, identify what the triggers are

1162
00:40:58,885 --> 00:40:59,704
and then redirect.

1163
00:41:00,085 --> 00:41:01,305
And so helping

1164
00:41:01,765 --> 00:41:03,224
understand the why

1165
00:41:03,525 --> 00:41:06,579
can help give more specific counsel on the

1166
00:41:06,579 --> 00:41:08,420
what to do in the future. And then,

1167
00:41:08,420 --> 00:41:10,500
like you said, that can also help them

1168
00:41:10,500 --> 00:41:13,539
put some parameters and some more context to

1169
00:41:13,780 --> 00:41:15,460
k. You know, here's what I wanna do

1170
00:41:15,460 --> 00:41:17,300
with temple attendants. Here's what I wanna do

1171
00:41:17,300 --> 00:41:19,525
with your mission to help give people some

1172
00:41:19,525 --> 00:41:21,385
clear skills. Because I think what that avoids

1173
00:41:21,844 --> 00:41:23,844
is the what what I sometimes call the

1174
00:41:23,844 --> 00:41:26,405
holding our breath remedy, which is, k. I've

1175
00:41:26,405 --> 00:41:28,485
got a youth. I've got a 17, 18

1176
00:41:28,485 --> 00:41:30,164
year old young man. He wants to go

1177
00:41:30,164 --> 00:41:31,765
on a mission. We had our first interview.

1178
00:41:31,765 --> 00:41:34,119
He disclosed porn. So I said, okay. Like,

1179
00:41:34,119 --> 00:41:35,659
let's go through six months

1180
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:37,719
before we submit papers and see how we

1181
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,199
go. If there's nothing attached to that of

1182
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:41,800
and then here's how we're gonna try to

1183
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:43,960
change things. Mhmm. All I'm doing is telling

1184
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:45,480
that young man to, like I said, hold

1185
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:47,480
your breath. Hold your breath and try to

1186
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:48,885
get to your mission. And then there's a

1187
00:41:48,885 --> 00:41:50,565
whole another thing, I think, with mission sometimes

1188
00:41:50,565 --> 00:41:51,605
of like and then you're gonna be on

1189
00:41:51,605 --> 00:41:53,284
your mission, and your phone's gonna be locked

1190
00:41:53,284 --> 00:41:54,885
down, and it's not gonna be an issue,

1191
00:41:54,885 --> 00:41:56,565
which we know is not the case at

1192
00:41:56,565 --> 00:41:58,804
all. Instead of, like I said, having the

1193
00:41:58,804 --> 00:42:00,965
mentality of I've got this 17, 18 year

1194
00:42:00,965 --> 00:42:03,440
old, I can be an instrument in God's

1195
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:03,940
hands

1196
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,039
to help them build better coping skills. That's

1197
00:42:07,039 --> 00:42:08,639
not even just gonna help when it comes

1198
00:42:08,639 --> 00:42:09,300
to pornography.

1199
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:10,420
It's gonna

1200
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:12,319
help with their marriage. It's gonna help them

1201
00:42:12,319 --> 00:42:14,079
as a father or a mother. It's gonna

1202
00:42:14,079 --> 00:42:16,019
help them with their work and their job

1203
00:42:16,255 --> 00:42:17,855
because there's gonna be a lot of situations

1204
00:42:17,855 --> 00:42:20,335
where they're gonna be stressed or depressed or,

1205
00:42:20,335 --> 00:42:21,934
you know, whatever it is, and they're gonna

1206
00:42:21,934 --> 00:42:23,394
need good coping skills.

1207
00:42:23,695 --> 00:42:25,775
Yeah. That's really helpful. And then because there

1208
00:42:25,855 --> 00:42:28,094
there's and so what I'm learning is just

1209
00:42:28,094 --> 00:42:30,469
being a don't jump to too many conclusions

1210
00:42:30,469 --> 00:42:32,150
as far as what that means when they

1211
00:42:32,150 --> 00:42:35,109
disclose pornography use. Ask more questions of why

1212
00:42:35,109 --> 00:42:36,710
because there's probably on one side of the

1213
00:42:36,710 --> 00:42:39,109
spectrum of, you know, kids are just curious

1214
00:42:39,109 --> 00:42:40,949
and they had to have a computer at

1215
00:42:40,949 --> 00:42:43,864
their hand to just maybe ask questions and,

1216
00:42:44,005 --> 00:42:46,724
again, not the ideal scenario or form in

1217
00:42:46,724 --> 00:42:49,204
which to learn about sexuality. But and then

1218
00:42:49,204 --> 00:42:50,405
it's, you know, here and there, it was

1219
00:42:50,485 --> 00:42:51,844
but it was more of just, like, on

1220
00:42:51,844 --> 00:42:53,765
a more curiosity scale. And then there's others

1221
00:42:53,765 --> 00:42:55,110
who are like, wait a minute. You're like,

1222
00:42:55,190 --> 00:42:56,950
you're using this to cope with life to

1223
00:42:56,950 --> 00:42:57,930
survive another

1224
00:42:58,390 --> 00:43:00,390
day. Like, that's a that's a much different

1225
00:43:00,390 --> 00:43:00,890
circumstance.

1226
00:43:01,590 --> 00:43:04,010
And often, like, as I'm raising kids

1227
00:43:04,390 --> 00:43:06,170
and my kids will watch these

1228
00:43:06,470 --> 00:43:08,250
in the future and be like, wow. This

1229
00:43:08,309 --> 00:43:09,989
this guy really messed up. But part of

1230
00:43:09,989 --> 00:43:11,835
me is like, you know, we it's so

1231
00:43:11,835 --> 00:43:14,074
easy to get worried about kids, about mistakes,

1232
00:43:14,074 --> 00:43:15,914
and even, you know, I don't quite yet

1233
00:43:15,914 --> 00:43:18,394
have teenagers, but it's like, you know, screen

1234
00:43:18,394 --> 00:43:20,315
time, which, you know, isn't ideal and but

1235
00:43:20,315 --> 00:43:22,635
it happens. And I should probably I probably

1236
00:43:22,635 --> 00:43:24,394
allow it too much or whatever, but I

1237
00:43:24,394 --> 00:43:26,929
kinda feel like just the nature of them

1238
00:43:26,929 --> 00:43:29,829
doing it isn't necessarily gonna perpetuate this terrible

1239
00:43:29,969 --> 00:43:32,449
habit in the future. Just the nature of

1240
00:43:32,449 --> 00:43:34,849
maturing into adulthood, our brains develop and then

1241
00:43:34,849 --> 00:43:37,010
become more aware of, like, actually, I don't

1242
00:43:37,010 --> 00:43:38,609
feel good when I'm just looking at a

1243
00:43:38,609 --> 00:43:40,130
screen all day. I'm gonna go for a

1244
00:43:40,130 --> 00:43:42,125
walk more. You know, I'd like, it kinda

1245
00:43:42,344 --> 00:43:44,184
fixes itself a little bit. And so as

1246
00:43:44,184 --> 00:43:45,824
a father, I'm sort of taking a lot

1247
00:43:46,025 --> 00:43:47,385
some of the remove some of that shame

1248
00:43:47,385 --> 00:43:48,985
saying, like, you know what? This will probably

1249
00:43:48,985 --> 00:43:51,465
work out. Of course, I'm gonna, you know,

1250
00:43:51,465 --> 00:43:53,385
reach for the ideal, but it's not all

1251
00:43:53,385 --> 00:43:54,824
gonna be on me if this doesn't work

1252
00:43:54,824 --> 00:43:56,670
out. And so with those youth, it's like,

1253
00:43:56,829 --> 00:43:58,609
a lot of this just kinda goes away

1254
00:43:58,989 --> 00:44:00,429
as they age or they get a better

1255
00:44:00,429 --> 00:44:03,309
grip on it unless there's this extreme coping

1256
00:44:03,309 --> 00:44:04,909
mechanism. It's like, sounds like you need some

1257
00:44:04,909 --> 00:44:07,069
more resources here. Right? Is that fair? Yeah.

1258
00:44:07,069 --> 00:44:08,510
And it it it like you said, is

1259
00:44:08,589 --> 00:44:10,449
it can change the context of the conversation

1260
00:44:10,510 --> 00:44:12,614
and I think allow the conversation to have

1261
00:44:12,614 --> 00:44:15,094
a lot of really positive effects. Like like

1262
00:44:15,094 --> 00:44:16,394
you said, as as a parent,

1263
00:44:16,695 --> 00:44:18,295
you know, as I'm talking to my kids

1264
00:44:18,295 --> 00:44:20,235
about this, which parents should be doing too,

1265
00:44:20,454 --> 00:44:23,035
is I'm gonna get all that same variation

1266
00:44:23,639 --> 00:44:25,639
and understanding the context. So I've got two

1267
00:44:25,639 --> 00:44:28,199
young adults and two teenagers now. Mhmm. And,

1268
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:30,139
like, for one of my kids, for example,

1269
00:44:30,199 --> 00:44:31,719
and I guess a little bit of context

1270
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:33,000
here back to what I was saying before

1271
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,000
is one thing I tell parents is when

1272
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:36,864
you're talking to your kids about this, don't

1273
00:44:36,864 --> 00:44:37,364
ever

1274
00:44:37,744 --> 00:44:39,905
ask, have you seen porn? It's more when

1275
00:44:39,905 --> 00:44:41,905
you see porn. Yeah. Like, it's gonna happen.

1276
00:44:41,905 --> 00:44:43,184
And so that's the message I've given to

1277
00:44:43,184 --> 00:44:44,385
all my kids. And and one of my

1278
00:44:44,385 --> 00:44:46,144
kids came to me at one point and

1279
00:44:46,144 --> 00:44:48,065
said, hey, you know, dad, I was scrolling

1280
00:44:48,065 --> 00:44:50,470
through social media. I clicked on this ad.

1281
00:44:50,470 --> 00:44:52,230
It looked like a cool product and, oh,

1282
00:44:52,230 --> 00:44:53,750
I was on a porn site. Uh-huh. And

1283
00:44:53,750 --> 00:44:55,110
that led to about a week and a

1284
00:44:55,110 --> 00:44:56,730
half of kind of curiosity.

1285
00:44:57,510 --> 00:44:58,010
And

1286
00:44:58,390 --> 00:45:00,410
what I was able to do, one, is

1287
00:45:00,630 --> 00:45:03,255
I was able to kind of intervene very

1288
00:45:03,255 --> 00:45:05,815
quickly because my kids had this context of

1289
00:45:05,815 --> 00:45:08,295
this isn't something to necessarily hide and something

1290
00:45:08,295 --> 00:45:09,914
I can go talk to my parents about.

1291
00:45:10,054 --> 00:45:11,894
But two, because it was more of an

1292
00:45:11,894 --> 00:45:12,394
accidental

1293
00:45:12,855 --> 00:45:15,590
curiosity thing, it led to to what I

1294
00:45:15,590 --> 00:45:18,809
hope was a really good conversation about attraction

1295
00:45:18,869 --> 00:45:21,590
first Mhmm. And how, hey, God has designed

1296
00:45:21,590 --> 00:45:24,309
our bodies to have sexual attraction, and that

1297
00:45:24,309 --> 00:45:26,550
is a God given thing that is meant

1298
00:45:26,550 --> 00:45:28,090
to help you in your marriage

1299
00:45:28,485 --> 00:45:30,485
connect with your spouse in these very powerful

1300
00:45:30,485 --> 00:45:32,405
ways. So that's a good thing. You're not

1301
00:45:32,405 --> 00:45:34,724
understanding kinda what that is and that it

1302
00:45:34,724 --> 00:45:36,664
doesn't have to be a scary thing. But

1303
00:45:36,724 --> 00:45:38,724
now let's talk about what Satan wants you

1304
00:45:38,724 --> 00:45:40,405
to do with that. And now let's talk

1305
00:45:40,405 --> 00:45:42,005
about the context of what you've seen in

1306
00:45:42,005 --> 00:45:44,630
pornography and how that's not connected to this

1307
00:45:44,630 --> 00:45:47,210
view of intimacy and sexual connectedness

1308
00:45:47,829 --> 00:45:50,469
that is sacred and special and symbolic of

1309
00:45:50,469 --> 00:45:52,469
the the sealing ordinance that you can have

1310
00:45:52,469 --> 00:45:54,230
with a spouse. And so so now I'm

1311
00:45:54,230 --> 00:45:55,690
using that as an opportunity

1312
00:45:56,070 --> 00:45:58,070
to teach these other principles. And I think

1313
00:45:58,070 --> 00:46:00,034
back in a youth leadership context,

1314
00:46:00,574 --> 00:46:02,734
you know, to put that in a different

1315
00:46:02,734 --> 00:46:05,375
way, as a bishop, I think sometimes when

1316
00:46:05,375 --> 00:46:07,295
a when a bishop or another church leader

1317
00:46:07,295 --> 00:46:09,375
gets a youth that confesses pornography, there's this,

1318
00:46:09,375 --> 00:46:11,829
like, oh, no. Like, oh, no. You know,

1319
00:46:11,829 --> 00:46:14,409
you're you're one of those now. Instead of

1320
00:46:14,550 --> 00:46:17,269
having the mindset of great, think about all

1321
00:46:17,269 --> 00:46:19,989
the youth that a bishop interacts with that

1322
00:46:19,989 --> 00:46:22,150
will never tell that bishop really anything. Like

1323
00:46:22,150 --> 00:46:24,309
every interview and semi annual interview is like,

1324
00:46:24,309 --> 00:46:26,784
yep. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. Now

1325
00:46:26,784 --> 00:46:27,925
I've got this youth

1326
00:46:28,224 --> 00:46:30,164
that we can use this as an opportunity

1327
00:46:30,304 --> 00:46:31,525
to really understand

1328
00:46:31,824 --> 00:46:35,045
the gospel, understand Jesus Christ in your relationship

1329
00:46:35,184 --> 00:46:35,844
with him,

1330
00:46:36,224 --> 00:46:38,644
understand in a very real way the atonement.

1331
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:40,840
This is a great opportunity for me as

1332
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,559
a youth leader to help this youth have

1333
00:46:43,559 --> 00:46:44,539
a very real

1334
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,800
experience with God. That's amazing. That's great. I

1335
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:49,639
wanna seize on the opportunity to have those

1336
00:46:49,639 --> 00:46:50,460
kind of discussions.

1337
00:46:51,014 --> 00:46:54,135
Use this as an opportunity to reinforce those

1338
00:46:54,135 --> 00:46:56,074
principles, to build their testimony,

1339
00:46:56,534 --> 00:46:59,014
and then point out, you know, the, hey.

1340
00:46:59,014 --> 00:47:00,934
You know? Yeah. We're not it's not great

1341
00:47:00,934 --> 00:47:02,534
that you looked at porn, but now that

1342
00:47:02,534 --> 00:47:04,135
we've gone through this process, aren't we kinda

1343
00:47:04,135 --> 00:47:06,295
happy that you have this experience? Journal about

1344
00:47:06,295 --> 00:47:08,909
it. Learn. Teach your other youth about this.

1345
00:47:08,909 --> 00:47:10,429
You know? And and and I think we're

1346
00:47:10,429 --> 00:47:12,269
not quite there. I'd love to get in

1347
00:47:12,269 --> 00:47:13,969
the context in a culture

1348
00:47:14,269 --> 00:47:16,829
where, you know, in a youth lesson or

1349
00:47:16,829 --> 00:47:19,070
in a fast and testimony meeting, a youth

1350
00:47:19,070 --> 00:47:20,590
can get up in front of other youth

1351
00:47:20,590 --> 00:47:22,664
and say, yeah. I struggle with porn for

1352
00:47:22,664 --> 00:47:24,105
the last six months, but I used the

1353
00:47:24,105 --> 00:47:26,184
atonement and I got past it, and I

1354
00:47:26,184 --> 00:47:28,265
just wanna testify of the reality of the

1355
00:47:28,265 --> 00:47:30,585
savior. Mhmm. Think about how powerful that would

1356
00:47:30,585 --> 00:47:31,965
be to the other youth in the room.

1357
00:47:32,025 --> 00:47:34,265
Again, we're not there yet. I haven't seen

1358
00:47:34,265 --> 00:47:36,010
it, but it'd be a really powerful thing

1359
00:47:36,010 --> 00:47:37,849
if we can get there. Yeah. And I

1360
00:47:37,849 --> 00:47:40,730
I really appreciate that that reframing of because

1361
00:47:40,730 --> 00:47:42,170
there is, like, as a from a parent

1362
00:47:42,170 --> 00:47:43,849
context, you know, you're not I know I'm

1363
00:47:43,849 --> 00:47:44,829
supposed to be talking

1364
00:47:45,289 --> 00:47:47,529
about, you know, sex with my kids and

1365
00:47:47,529 --> 00:47:50,010
getting them educated and healthy conversations on and

1366
00:47:50,010 --> 00:47:52,155
on. It's often just hard to, like, broach

1367
00:47:52,155 --> 00:47:54,394
that topic at times. It's like, well, you

1368
00:47:54,394 --> 00:47:55,994
know, that and we all remember. I mean,

1369
00:47:55,994 --> 00:47:57,434
some of us had that awkward, you know,

1370
00:47:57,434 --> 00:48:00,075
drive to wherever where the dad suddenly brings

1371
00:48:00,075 --> 00:48:01,515
up this, you know, like, oh, man. This

1372
00:48:01,515 --> 00:48:03,279
is what we're talking about. But to see

1373
00:48:03,279 --> 00:48:04,719
it like, oh, great. They've come to me.

1374
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,139
Now this is we have a stage to

1375
00:48:07,279 --> 00:48:09,440
talk about this and lean in. And even

1376
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:12,079
whether that's a church leader or a youth

1377
00:48:12,079 --> 00:48:13,139
leader or a parent,

1378
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:15,279
great. Jump at that opportunity. It's a it's

1379
00:48:15,279 --> 00:48:17,704
a great opportunity. Yeah. And like I said

1380
00:48:18,244 --> 00:48:20,085
earlier, I think the really important context for

1381
00:48:20,085 --> 00:48:22,664
church leaders and parents is to understand that

1382
00:48:22,965 --> 00:48:24,485
the way the world has changed in the

1383
00:48:24,485 --> 00:48:26,664
last two decades makes this conversation

1384
00:48:27,525 --> 00:48:28,345
a necessity.

1385
00:48:28,805 --> 00:48:30,244
And it makes it one that has to

1386
00:48:30,244 --> 00:48:32,260
be different than than, like you said, how

1387
00:48:32,260 --> 00:48:34,260
it's been done in generations past, which is

1388
00:48:34,260 --> 00:48:35,000
that awkward,

1389
00:48:35,380 --> 00:48:36,599
gonna have a quick conversation.

1390
00:48:37,140 --> 00:48:39,460
And get everything else. Never talk about it

1391
00:48:39,460 --> 00:48:41,460
again. Like I said, if you look at

1392
00:48:41,460 --> 00:48:43,940
just our stats on our kids, that the

1393
00:48:43,940 --> 00:48:45,700
average age that kids see porn for the

1394
00:48:45,700 --> 00:48:48,054
first time is 10, 11, 12. That's way

1395
00:48:48,054 --> 00:48:50,775
sooner than most parents understand and certainly earlier

1396
00:48:50,775 --> 00:48:52,315
than most people are having conversations.

1397
00:48:52,695 --> 00:48:54,614
And then like I said, almost all youth

1398
00:48:54,614 --> 00:48:55,114
will

1399
00:48:55,574 --> 00:48:57,655
see or start to use porn regularly by

1400
00:48:57,655 --> 00:48:59,815
the time they're 18 even in a religious

1401
00:48:59,815 --> 00:49:01,869
context. It just has to do with how

1402
00:49:01,869 --> 00:49:04,190
accessible it is. That our kids have phones,

1403
00:49:04,190 --> 00:49:06,130
they have the Internet, they have social media,

1404
00:49:06,269 --> 00:49:08,449
they will see porn. It's just inevitable.

1405
00:49:08,909 --> 00:49:11,710
And so parenting today, one of the shifts

1406
00:49:11,710 --> 00:49:13,630
I think of modern parenting is that I

1407
00:49:13,630 --> 00:49:14,690
have to now have

1408
00:49:15,045 --> 00:49:15,944
regular conversations

1409
00:49:16,244 --> 00:49:17,925
with my kids about this. It's just part

1410
00:49:17,925 --> 00:49:20,484
of being a healthy parent who monitors their

1411
00:49:20,484 --> 00:49:21,304
kids' behavior

1412
00:49:21,684 --> 00:49:22,425
is understanding

1413
00:49:23,125 --> 00:49:25,204
that this is gonna happen. And if I

1414
00:49:25,204 --> 00:49:25,704
don't,

1415
00:49:26,005 --> 00:49:26,744
I'm allowing

1416
00:49:27,339 --> 00:49:28,159
the world

1417
00:49:28,460 --> 00:49:30,880
and social media and the Internet to dictate

1418
00:49:31,339 --> 00:49:33,839
the messages that my kids get around intimacy.

1419
00:49:34,139 --> 00:49:35,519
Yeah. That's really helpful.

1420
00:49:36,059 --> 00:49:38,139
Some random questions as far as research shows

1421
00:49:38,139 --> 00:49:41,014
is is there any evidence that consuming

1422
00:49:41,474 --> 00:49:44,034
pornography, you know, just like, drugs. Right? You

1423
00:49:44,034 --> 00:49:45,875
want more and more of a hit type

1424
00:49:45,875 --> 00:49:47,394
of thing. Like, is it does is it

1425
00:49:47,394 --> 00:49:49,894
progressive as far as the severity of

1426
00:49:50,275 --> 00:49:51,894
of, you know,

1427
00:49:52,275 --> 00:49:53,795
the the type of porn and even into

1428
00:49:53,795 --> 00:49:56,570
illegal types of porn? Yeah. So we do

1429
00:49:56,570 --> 00:49:58,570
have some research on this and it goes

1430
00:49:58,570 --> 00:50:00,090
back to a term I used before about

1431
00:50:00,090 --> 00:50:02,190
risk, that pornography is a risk behavior.

1432
00:50:02,489 --> 00:50:02,989
And

1433
00:50:03,289 --> 00:50:04,969
because of that, when we look at this,

1434
00:50:05,210 --> 00:50:06,030
kind of trajectory,

1435
00:50:06,570 --> 00:50:08,875
we see different trajectories. Right? So like most

1436
00:50:08,875 --> 00:50:10,635
things, it's not one thing for every person.

1437
00:50:10,635 --> 00:50:11,994
So it's not that every person that looks

1438
00:50:11,994 --> 00:50:13,755
at porn is going to have this kind

1439
00:50:13,755 --> 00:50:16,474
of escalating pattern. We tend to see three

1440
00:50:16,474 --> 00:50:18,394
groups. One group is what we kind of

1441
00:50:18,394 --> 00:50:20,394
call our dabbler group, which is kind of

1442
00:50:20,394 --> 00:50:22,789
the, like, on and off again pattern. Like,

1443
00:50:22,789 --> 00:50:24,550
I look at porn. I'm curious. I do

1444
00:50:24,550 --> 00:50:25,909
it for a week or two, and then

1445
00:50:25,909 --> 00:50:26,570
I stop.

1446
00:50:26,949 --> 00:50:28,469
That is kinda one group that kind of

1447
00:50:28,469 --> 00:50:31,349
just dabbles and it becomes either a a

1448
00:50:31,349 --> 00:50:33,769
pattern of dabbling or something that they maybe

1449
00:50:33,909 --> 00:50:36,115
experiment with in in their adolescent years, and

1450
00:50:36,115 --> 00:50:37,315
then it goes away. So we didn't know

1451
00:50:37,315 --> 00:50:39,155
there's a group that's like that. There's what

1452
00:50:39,155 --> 00:50:41,555
we call an experimenter group where it follows

1453
00:50:41,555 --> 00:50:43,494
a very similar trajectory as other

1454
00:50:43,875 --> 00:50:46,115
risk taking behaviors in adolescence where we see

1455
00:50:46,115 --> 00:50:48,855
this kind of quick escalation through teenage years,

1456
00:50:49,190 --> 00:50:52,010
peaks around early young adulthood twenty twenty three,

1457
00:50:52,550 --> 00:50:54,630
kind of early twenties, and then it starts

1458
00:50:54,630 --> 00:50:56,150
to come down. So we see that group.

1459
00:50:56,150 --> 00:50:57,590
And then we see a group that is

1460
00:50:57,590 --> 00:51:00,230
this kind of escalating quick and they stay

1461
00:51:00,230 --> 00:51:02,175
high. I mean, that's typically our group that's

1462
00:51:02,255 --> 00:51:04,655
kind of in that problematic use, compulsive use

1463
00:51:04,655 --> 00:51:07,295
group. You know, those three groups are the

1464
00:51:07,295 --> 00:51:09,295
most common patterns we see. Obviously, there's a

1465
00:51:09,295 --> 00:51:10,914
lot of individual trajectories.

1466
00:51:11,295 --> 00:51:13,215
But I think there's two key conclusions from

1467
00:51:13,215 --> 00:51:15,119
that. One is is that

1468
00:51:15,579 --> 00:51:17,099
no. Not everyone that looks at porn is

1469
00:51:17,099 --> 00:51:18,859
gonna become an addict. There's not a lot

1470
00:51:18,859 --> 00:51:20,780
of research to suggest that. But the better

1471
00:51:20,780 --> 00:51:22,780
way to say that is anyone that looks

1472
00:51:22,780 --> 00:51:25,019
at porn has the risk of becoming an

1473
00:51:25,019 --> 00:51:26,400
addict. Mhmm. Because

1474
00:51:26,835 --> 00:51:28,914
whether you end up in that escalating group

1475
00:51:28,914 --> 00:51:30,434
that now struggles with this rest of your

1476
00:51:30,434 --> 00:51:32,355
life is gonna be based on a combination

1477
00:51:32,355 --> 00:51:33,014
of personality,

1478
00:51:33,554 --> 00:51:34,375
brain chemistry,

1479
00:51:34,675 --> 00:51:35,655
social environment,

1480
00:51:36,034 --> 00:51:37,715
things that you're never gonna be able to

1481
00:51:37,715 --> 00:51:39,155
look at yourself and say, k. I know

1482
00:51:39,155 --> 00:51:40,914
for sure I'm not gonna be that person.

1483
00:51:40,914 --> 00:51:43,050
Mhmm. You don't know, which is why it's

1484
00:51:43,050 --> 00:51:44,809
a risk and and and why there should

1485
00:51:44,809 --> 00:51:46,910
be, you know, getting in the policy side,

1486
00:51:46,970 --> 00:51:49,289
I think a lot of efforts to help

1487
00:51:49,289 --> 00:51:51,869
filter pornographic material away from kids

1488
00:51:52,170 --> 00:51:54,250
because we don't know how many kids could

1489
00:51:54,250 --> 00:51:56,010
fall into that trap and really affect their

1490
00:51:56,010 --> 00:51:56,829
adult relationships.

1491
00:51:57,505 --> 00:51:59,605
That's one side. In terms of content,

1492
00:51:59,905 --> 00:52:01,344
again, kind of two things that come from

1493
00:52:01,344 --> 00:52:02,005
the research.

1494
00:52:02,304 --> 00:52:04,405
There's not a lot of evidence that suggests

1495
00:52:04,465 --> 00:52:07,025
that when someone gets into and and heavily

1496
00:52:07,025 --> 00:52:07,844
uses pornography

1497
00:52:08,465 --> 00:52:11,909
that, eventually, they'll fall into illegal child porn.

1498
00:52:11,909 --> 00:52:13,109
Yeah. I hear that a lot. Like, you

1499
00:52:13,109 --> 00:52:14,389
know, if you watch porn enough, you're gonna

1500
00:52:14,389 --> 00:52:16,469
end up being a child abuser or things

1501
00:52:16,469 --> 00:52:18,710
like that. There's very little research that suggests

1502
00:52:18,710 --> 00:52:20,730
that's the case. Having said that,

1503
00:52:21,030 --> 00:52:21,849
what is

1504
00:52:22,230 --> 00:52:23,130
another important

1505
00:52:23,715 --> 00:52:25,795
fact in that research though, is that part

1506
00:52:25,795 --> 00:52:27,175
of that I think is because

1507
00:52:27,474 --> 00:52:28,775
most mainstream pornography

1508
00:52:29,155 --> 00:52:31,894
in terms of content is already super problematic.

1509
00:52:32,275 --> 00:52:34,135
So yes, I might not be falling into

1510
00:52:34,434 --> 00:52:37,075
underage child porn or other forms of illegal

1511
00:52:37,075 --> 00:52:39,510
porn, But we know that the vast majority

1512
00:52:39,510 --> 00:52:41,910
of pornography out there in in these mainstream

1513
00:52:41,910 --> 00:52:45,190
sites oftentimes show high aggression towards women, like

1514
00:52:45,190 --> 00:52:47,450
I said earlier. Mhmm. A lack of consent,

1515
00:52:47,750 --> 00:52:50,410
a lot of problematic behavior and abusive behavior.

1516
00:52:50,675 --> 00:52:52,755
So it's it's less about how it doesn't

1517
00:52:52,755 --> 00:52:54,675
escalate. It's more just as soon as you're

1518
00:52:54,675 --> 00:52:57,155
there, it's there. Yeah. And you're already consuming

1519
00:52:57,155 --> 00:52:59,234
a lot of really problematic content. You know,

1520
00:52:59,234 --> 00:53:01,635
this idea of, you know I'm gonna go

1521
00:53:01,635 --> 00:53:03,074
back to the eighties and nineties because I

1522
00:53:03,074 --> 00:53:04,578
I think there's some interesting, important historical context

1523
00:53:04,578 --> 00:53:04,749
to understand. Right? Is that you go back

1524
00:53:04,749 --> 00:53:05,840
kind of pre Internet and pre Is

1525
00:53:07,180 --> 00:53:09,019
that you go back kind of pre Internet

1526
00:53:09,019 --> 00:53:09,920
and pre smartphone.

1527
00:53:10,380 --> 00:53:11,400
There was a little bit more of this

1528
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:13,280
sense of kind of this escalation

1529
00:53:13,579 --> 00:53:15,980
from my friend found this magazine in a

1530
00:53:15,980 --> 00:53:18,219
gutter under my dad's bed, and we're passing

1531
00:53:18,219 --> 00:53:20,385
it around to, Okay now I'm now I'm

1532
00:53:20,385 --> 00:53:22,965
watching Cinemax late at night kind of softcore

1533
00:53:23,025 --> 00:53:24,864
stuff and now I'm getting into the hardcore

1534
00:53:24,864 --> 00:53:26,144
stuff there was a little bit more of

1535
00:53:26,144 --> 00:53:28,785
that escalation because you had to seek it

1536
00:53:28,785 --> 00:53:31,599
out now it's presented to you And like

1537
00:53:31,599 --> 00:53:33,699
I said, immediately when I'm on a pornographic

1538
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:35,619
website, these two base sites,

1539
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:38,900
I'm immediately presented with all this very violent,

1540
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:39,460
nonconsensual,

1541
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:43,359
problematic content. It's just kind of there. And

1542
00:53:43,359 --> 00:53:45,599
so even when I say it doesn't escalate

1543
00:53:45,599 --> 00:53:47,655
into a lot of illegal stuff, that doesn't

1544
00:53:47,655 --> 00:53:50,235
mean that it's all nice soft core consensual,

1545
00:53:50,855 --> 00:53:54,074
you know, romantic porn. It's very much problematic

1546
00:53:54,135 --> 00:53:56,554
content. Yeah. And we just it

1547
00:53:57,094 --> 00:53:59,594
accelerates a lot quicker because, I mean, finding,

1548
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:02,179
you know, the magazine back in the day,

1549
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:04,320
it wasn't a video, you know, and, and

1550
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:06,659
the video, I had just a whole nother

1551
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:08,719
layer to it that it makes them even

1552
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:10,800
more problematic. So, and it just, and that's

1553
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:12,480
the interesting thing. You know, you talk about,

1554
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:14,695
you know, the old boomers talk about, oh,

1555
00:54:14,695 --> 00:54:15,815
back in my day, I had to go

1556
00:54:15,815 --> 00:54:18,135
seek it out. And then our demographic is

1557
00:54:18,135 --> 00:54:19,894
kinda like, well, yeah, now anybody can get

1558
00:54:19,894 --> 00:54:21,414
it. But now we're in this phase of,

1559
00:54:21,414 --> 00:54:23,815
like, no. It is aggressively coming for you,

1560
00:54:23,815 --> 00:54:25,195
and it it will

1561
00:54:25,574 --> 00:54:27,014
put itself in front of you. And so

1562
00:54:27,014 --> 00:54:28,299
how are you gonna respond type of thing?

1563
00:54:28,299 --> 00:54:30,059
Yeah. And again, from a parent and church

1564
00:54:30,059 --> 00:54:30,880
leader perspective

1565
00:54:31,420 --> 00:54:32,319
is understanding,

1566
00:54:32,699 --> 00:54:34,460
you know, everything you just said, but then

1567
00:54:34,460 --> 00:54:37,359
understand it. Like I said, most pornographic websites

1568
00:54:37,420 --> 00:54:40,014
are tube based sites just like YouTube, and

1569
00:54:40,014 --> 00:54:42,335
they're based on algorithms, which means that not

1570
00:54:42,335 --> 00:54:44,114
only is it right there in my face,

1571
00:54:44,335 --> 00:54:46,094
as soon as I start clicking around once

1572
00:54:46,094 --> 00:54:48,655
or twice, it knows who I am, it

1573
00:54:48,655 --> 00:54:50,755
knows what I'm clicking on, and it starts

1574
00:54:50,894 --> 00:54:51,394
feeding

1575
00:54:51,855 --> 00:54:53,775
more and more of the same stuff. Yeah.

1576
00:54:53,775 --> 00:54:54,275
Interesting.

1577
00:54:54,739 --> 00:54:56,199
Any other with your,

1578
00:54:56,980 --> 00:54:59,380
the, you know, research you geek out on,

1579
00:54:59,460 --> 00:55:01,619
is there any other factoid or concept or

1580
00:55:01,619 --> 00:55:03,799
dynamic Evan asked about that we were mentioning

1581
00:55:03,859 --> 00:55:04,599
to this audience?

1582
00:55:04,980 --> 00:55:07,215
I think this is slightly off tangent but

1583
00:55:07,215 --> 00:55:09,055
related, and it's it's something I'm talking more

1584
00:55:09,055 --> 00:55:11,215
and more about, and and elder Bednar just

1585
00:55:11,215 --> 00:55:12,815
mentioned it in a youth devotional. And so

1586
00:55:12,815 --> 00:55:14,414
I I think it's it's relevant to bring

1587
00:55:14,414 --> 00:55:16,275
up. We talk a lot about AI

1588
00:55:16,655 --> 00:55:19,695
changing our world, and we're just starting to

1589
00:55:19,695 --> 00:55:21,934
see a big shift in our youth and

1590
00:55:21,934 --> 00:55:22,595
young adults

1591
00:55:22,929 --> 00:55:24,769
in this area around AI. You know, we

1592
00:55:24,769 --> 00:55:26,550
talk a lot about how AI changes technology

1593
00:55:26,610 --> 00:55:28,289
and and things, but one of the things

1594
00:55:28,289 --> 00:55:30,210
that's really started to happen in the last

1595
00:55:30,210 --> 00:55:31,349
two to five years

1596
00:55:31,730 --> 00:55:33,890
is a huge uptick in how youth and

1597
00:55:33,890 --> 00:55:36,550
young adults and adults are using AI companion

1598
00:55:36,610 --> 00:55:37,110
platforms.

1599
00:55:37,695 --> 00:55:39,635
So these are generative AI platforms

1600
00:55:40,175 --> 00:55:42,755
that are meant to simulate romantic partners that

1601
00:55:42,894 --> 00:55:45,614
almost always have an explicit sexual component to

1602
00:55:45,614 --> 00:55:46,114
them.

1603
00:55:46,655 --> 00:55:48,335
Where where now and the reason I bring

1604
00:55:48,335 --> 00:55:50,094
it up is because it's it's kind of

1605
00:55:50,094 --> 00:55:52,239
the next iteration, the next step in these

1606
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:54,079
things we've talked about that we were just

1607
00:55:54,079 --> 00:55:56,339
talking about about personalized pornography.

1608
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:57,699
That now

1609
00:55:58,079 --> 00:56:00,019
I'm not just getting sucked into an algorithm.

1610
00:56:00,559 --> 00:56:01,619
Now I have a platform

1611
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:04,255
where I can customize the content. I can

1612
00:56:04,255 --> 00:56:06,094
tell it exactly what I want this person

1613
00:56:06,094 --> 00:56:06,914
to look like.

1614
00:56:07,215 --> 00:56:08,735
They talk to me in a very real

1615
00:56:08,735 --> 00:56:11,135
way. What is kind of brought back is,

1616
00:56:11,135 --> 00:56:13,695
again, back to those generational differences is that,

1617
00:56:13,695 --> 00:56:16,469
you know, a a lot of sexual content

1618
00:56:16,789 --> 00:56:19,269
inappropriate sexual content for youth twenty, thirty, forty

1619
00:56:19,269 --> 00:56:22,150
years ago was very imaginative, which means, like

1620
00:56:22,150 --> 00:56:23,510
you said, I got a picture. I got

1621
00:56:23,590 --> 00:56:25,269
kind of put the story in my mind

1622
00:56:25,269 --> 00:56:26,710
to it. And then we kind of move

1623
00:56:26,710 --> 00:56:28,385
to it's just in my face. I'm just

1624
00:56:28,385 --> 00:56:30,304
watching the video. It's there. This the, you

1625
00:56:30,304 --> 00:56:32,724
know, the whatever content is in my face.

1626
00:56:32,945 --> 00:56:35,105
Now AI is bringing and merging those two

1627
00:56:35,105 --> 00:56:37,585
worlds together where now I can have a

1628
00:56:37,664 --> 00:56:40,065
what feels like a very real conversation, even

1629
00:56:40,065 --> 00:56:40,965
a phone conversation,

1630
00:56:41,670 --> 00:56:44,389
sexual conversation on the phone with someone that's

1631
00:56:44,389 --> 00:56:46,949
whatever I want. Whatever fantasy I want, I

1632
00:56:46,949 --> 00:56:48,789
can tell it. And now I can also

1633
00:56:48,789 --> 00:56:50,550
get the pictures and the videos to go

1634
00:56:50,550 --> 00:56:52,869
along with that. And so between these AI

1635
00:56:52,869 --> 00:56:55,609
companion platforms and AI generated pornography,

1636
00:56:56,184 --> 00:56:57,704
I think this is something, like I said,

1637
00:56:57,704 --> 00:56:59,625
elder Bednar just kind of sent the first

1638
00:56:59,625 --> 00:57:01,385
warning sign a couple months ago to youth

1639
00:57:01,385 --> 00:57:03,224
to say, be aware and be wary of

1640
00:57:03,224 --> 00:57:05,224
this. I think church leaders also need to

1641
00:57:05,224 --> 00:57:05,724
start

1642
00:57:06,025 --> 00:57:07,864
being aware of this, that this is the

1643
00:57:07,864 --> 00:57:10,450
next thing that's gonna come after our youth

1644
00:57:10,450 --> 00:57:12,930
is these AI generative platforms that are just

1645
00:57:12,930 --> 00:57:15,090
gonna make everything we've talked about today a

1646
00:57:15,090 --> 00:57:17,010
lot more challenging to cope with and probably

1647
00:57:17,010 --> 00:57:20,450
the effects a lot more, negative. Wow. Coming

1648
00:57:20,450 --> 00:57:22,930
to a bishop's office near you, unfortunately. Yeah.

1649
00:57:22,930 --> 00:57:25,175
Oh, wow. And I'm sure it's it's already

1650
00:57:25,394 --> 00:57:27,795
manifested of and it starts so innocent. Right?

1651
00:57:27,795 --> 00:57:30,355
I'm like, no. I just find friendship in

1652
00:57:30,355 --> 00:57:30,855
this

1653
00:57:31,635 --> 00:57:32,135
artificial,

1654
00:57:32,755 --> 00:57:34,675
you know, being out there and and that

1655
00:57:34,675 --> 00:57:37,309
they're progressive. So well, this has been really

1656
00:57:37,309 --> 00:57:39,550
good and helpful. Any other point you wanna

1657
00:57:39,550 --> 00:57:41,469
hit before we wrap up? No. I don't

1658
00:57:41,469 --> 00:57:43,550
think so. Yeah. Yeah. Well, cool. I appreciate

1659
00:57:43,550 --> 00:57:45,230
your time. And is there any place you

1660
00:57:45,309 --> 00:57:47,230
if someone wants to geek out with the

1661
00:57:47,230 --> 00:57:49,630
the data or learn more about what you

1662
00:57:49,630 --> 00:57:51,324
do and anywhere you'd send them? Well, two

1663
00:57:51,324 --> 00:57:52,765
two things I I'd say is is back

1664
00:57:52,765 --> 00:57:54,204
to the Wheatley Institute. If you go to

1665
00:57:54,204 --> 00:57:56,465
the the Wheatley Institute site of BYU,

1666
00:57:56,844 --> 00:57:58,765
there's a a place that has research reports.

1667
00:57:58,925 --> 00:58:00,045
And so you can click on that. You

1668
00:58:00,045 --> 00:58:02,285
can click on family. There's several things. Actually,

1669
00:58:02,285 --> 00:58:04,260
we just did one on AI. You can

1670
00:58:04,260 --> 00:58:05,860
see, you know and it it's like I

1671
00:58:05,860 --> 00:58:07,539
said, it's meant for public consumption, so it's

1672
00:58:07,539 --> 00:58:09,699
a lot of bar graphs and and other

1673
00:58:09,699 --> 00:58:11,320
kinda easily. It's not a lot of stats,

1674
00:58:11,460 --> 00:58:12,900
but there's one on AI. There's a couple

1675
00:58:12,900 --> 00:58:14,659
we've done in pornography, a couple other ones

1676
00:58:14,659 --> 00:58:16,260
just on other family stuff. So it's a

1677
00:58:16,260 --> 00:58:18,565
really good resource, I think, for members of

1678
00:58:18,565 --> 00:58:20,244
the church and leaders of the church that

1679
00:58:20,244 --> 00:58:22,565
are interested in family topics to go get

1680
00:58:22,565 --> 00:58:23,065
some

1681
00:58:23,364 --> 00:58:26,265
accessible research that's connected to gospel principles.

1682
00:58:26,724 --> 00:58:28,244
And then the other thing the other plug

1683
00:58:28,244 --> 00:58:30,905
I'll give is the church's website on pornography.

1684
00:58:31,285 --> 00:58:33,305
I've had the privilege of being involved

1685
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:34,880
in the creation of a lot of that

1686
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:35,380
content.

1687
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:38,000
And it's I don't wanna say it's so

1688
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:39,599
much better because I would imply the old

1689
00:58:39,599 --> 00:58:40,660
content was bad,

1690
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:42,340
but it's so much

1691
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:43,700
more expansive.

1692
00:58:44,239 --> 00:58:46,160
That that if you go to the church's

1693
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:47,059
site on pornography,

1694
00:58:47,494 --> 00:58:49,574
there's stuff for spouses, there's stuff for church

1695
00:58:49,574 --> 00:58:52,375
leaders and bishops and and stake presidents, there's

1696
00:58:52,375 --> 00:58:54,875
stuff for friends. There's just so much more

1697
00:58:54,934 --> 00:58:56,855
content there that I think a lot of

1698
00:58:56,855 --> 00:58:58,855
church members don't even realize it's there. That

1699
00:58:58,855 --> 00:59:00,375
that if you go on your gospel library

1700
00:59:00,375 --> 00:59:01,755
and you go to gospel topics,

1701
00:59:02,219 --> 00:59:04,059
pornography is one of those topics and there's

1702
00:59:04,059 --> 00:59:07,340
tons of resources there. Awesome. Perfect. Well, just

1703
00:59:07,340 --> 00:59:09,179
to conclude, if you're in front of a

1704
00:59:09,179 --> 00:59:11,659
room full of church leaders, what final encouragement

1705
00:59:11,659 --> 00:59:13,980
would you give them? Yeah. I think the

1706
00:59:13,980 --> 00:59:15,980
two things I'd say is like we said

1707
00:59:15,980 --> 00:59:17,599
before is be positive.

1708
00:59:18,355 --> 00:59:19,335
Be the example

1709
00:59:19,635 --> 00:59:21,795
of the joy that can come from the

1710
00:59:21,795 --> 00:59:24,434
gospel of Jesus Christ in all topics but

1711
00:59:24,434 --> 00:59:26,614
particularly for this one and then two

1712
00:59:27,155 --> 00:59:30,035
understand that like I said before this is

1713
00:59:30,035 --> 00:59:32,349
the most common issue that your youth are

1714
00:59:32,349 --> 00:59:33,789
dealing with. Whether they're talking to you or

1715
00:59:33,789 --> 00:59:35,789
not, whether you think it is, it is

1716
00:59:35,789 --> 00:59:37,869
the most common thing that they're struggling with.

1717
00:59:37,869 --> 00:59:39,710
And so, even if that means they're not

1718
00:59:39,710 --> 00:59:42,130
directly talking to me, again, lessons,

1719
00:59:42,510 --> 00:59:43,010
firesides,

1720
00:59:43,309 --> 00:59:45,250
other things that can address this topic

1721
00:59:45,565 --> 00:59:47,324
to hopefully encourage them to come talk to

1722
00:59:47,324 --> 00:59:49,405
church leaders. But then even if they don't,

1723
00:59:49,405 --> 00:59:51,105
that they're still getting good information,

1724
00:59:51,724 --> 00:59:52,545
good principles,

1725
00:59:52,925 --> 00:59:53,905
and good resources.

1726
01:00:01,389 --> 01:00:03,630
That concludes this episode of the Leading Saints

1727
01:00:03,630 --> 01:00:05,469
podcast. We'd love to hear from you about

1728
01:00:05,469 --> 01:00:07,309
your questions or thoughts or comments. You can

1729
01:00:07,309 --> 01:00:09,710
either leave a comment on the, post related

1730
01:00:09,710 --> 01:00:12,269
to this episode at leadingsaints.org

1731
01:00:12,269 --> 01:00:14,530
or go to leadingsaints.org/contact

1732
01:00:14,784 --> 01:00:17,025
and send us your perspective or questions. If

1733
01:00:17,025 --> 01:00:18,864
there's other episodes or topics you'd like to

1734
01:00:18,864 --> 01:00:20,704
hear on the Leading Saints podcast, go to

1735
01:00:20,704 --> 01:00:22,485
leadingsaints.org/contact

1736
01:00:22,545 --> 01:00:24,784
and share with us the information there. And

1737
01:00:24,784 --> 01:00:26,545
we would love for you to share this

1738
01:00:26,545 --> 01:00:28,619
with any individual you think this would apply

1739
01:00:28,619 --> 01:00:31,099
to, especially maybe individuals in your ward council

1740
01:00:31,099 --> 01:00:33,260
or other leaders that you may know who

1741
01:00:33,260 --> 01:00:35,839
would really appreciate the perspectives that we discussed.

1742
01:00:36,139 --> 01:00:38,940
Remember, learn more about disclosing betrayal from Jeff

1743
01:00:38,940 --> 01:00:42,264
Struer by visiting leadingsaints.org/fourteen.

1744
01:00:51,769 --> 01:00:54,250
It came as a result of the position

1745
01:00:54,250 --> 01:00:57,230
of leadership which was imposed upon us

1746
01:00:57,690 --> 01:00:59,710
by the God of heaven who brought

1747
01:01:00,010 --> 01:01:01,389
forth a restoration

1748
01:01:01,690 --> 01:01:04,030
of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

1749
01:01:04,734 --> 01:01:05,714
When the declaration

1750
01:01:06,094 --> 01:01:08,434
was made concerning the only

1751
01:01:09,054 --> 01:01:11,454
true and living Church upon the face of

1752
01:01:11,454 --> 01:01:12,195
the earth,

1753
01:01:12,734 --> 01:01:15,474
we were immediately put in a position of

1754
01:01:15,534 --> 01:01:16,034
loneliness,

1755
01:01:16,414 --> 01:01:16,994
the loneliness

1756
01:01:17,295 --> 01:01:17,954
of leadership

1757
01:01:18,699 --> 01:01:21,599
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,

1758
01:01:22,380 --> 01:01:24,860
and to which we must face up with

1759
01:01:24,860 --> 01:01:26,320
boldness and courage

1760
01:01:26,860 --> 01:01:27,679
and ability.