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It seems like struggles with pornography get most

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the airtime these days since it is so

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available in modern times. However,

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drug abuse and substance addiction is growing at

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shocking rates.

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As a church leader, we need to be

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prepared.

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We have a library full of resources focused

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on this topic.

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The presentation I would recommend you start with

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is Joseph Grenny's presentation about what we can

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learn from captain Moroni to help our loved

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ones overcome struggles with drugs and alcohol.

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His story of how he loved his son

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through his addiction is powerful and redemptive.

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You can listen to this presentation in the

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recovering saints library by going to leadingsaints.org/fourteen.

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Put your information in there and that will

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give you fourteen days at no cost. I

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made it easier for you and put the

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link in the show notes, or you can

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go to leadingsaints.org/1four.

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I would be rude if I didn't take

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the time to explain to the newer listeners

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what Leading Saints is. Here it goes. Leading

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Saints is an organization that started as a

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hobby blog in 02/2010

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and then really caught some traction in 02/2014

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when the podcast started. We talk about all

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things leadership in the context of the Church

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of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. We

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aren't owned by the church, but we have

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a great relationship with them and always aim

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to be faith promoting even though we talk

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about the tough topics.

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My name is Kurt Frankem. I'm generally the

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voice you hear as the host of the

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podcast. I've tried to get other hosts, but

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people demand my smooth tone and I really

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enjoy it. Check out leadingsaints.org

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to really get into the weeds of what

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Leading Saints is and learn all about our

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mission to help Latter day Saints be better

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prepared to lead.

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Welcome back to the Leading Saints podcast, and

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you're in for a treat again. I bring

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in one of my favorite, Christian authors,

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John Eldridge. This is actually my third interview

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with John Eldridge. We'll, link to some of

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those past interviews that they're really worth a

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listen. John is such a pure soul, someone

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I respect and appreciate so much, you know,

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not necessarily in our faith tradition, but he

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is, has a lot to offer it and

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a lot of perspective. And, so this may

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be kind of an interfaith discussion concept. He

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has a new book out called Experience Jesus

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Really. And then there are so many parallels

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to our theology,

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especially in the concept of how we worship

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God and connect with him and in spiritual

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realms or also known as the temple. So

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I really just invite you to sit back,

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enjoy this conversation, take it for what it

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is and check out John Eldridge book. I

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always tell people, if you haven't read wild

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to heart, especially men out there, it's a

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must read for some point in your life

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earlier than later,

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but a phenomenal

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transformational life changing book there. And then has

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so many other books and this is his

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most recent Experience Jesus, Really. So I wanted

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to help John get the word out, make

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sure you're aware of it and jump in.

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And again, there's so much that just jives

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so well with our religious tradition and, I

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think you'll appreciate it. So here is my

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interview with John Eldridge, the author of experience,

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Jesus, really.

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All right, John. Well, you know, I I

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remember the first time I got an interview,

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I was sort of pinching myself thinking, wow,

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this is a once in a lifetime

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moment here, but, now this is the third

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time and I just appreciate our conversation so

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much. So thank you for being here. Yeah.

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I've really enjoyed them, Kurt. Thanks for having

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me back.

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Yeah. And, you know, and I, I wanna

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orient people that maybe they don't like, who's

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this John Eldridge guy? And why should I

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be listening to this or hitting play on

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it? Maybe as people ask you, like, what's

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your background or what brings you to this

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place that, you have these type of conversations?

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Yeah. Sure. That's very fair. So I've been

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a therapist

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for

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about thirty five years.

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A lot of experience

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helping people

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grow, helping people heal,

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and

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began writing.

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I'm an author and

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found a lot of joy in that. And

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apparently,

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people

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enjoyed it as well because

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I think I've published about 17 books now.

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And you and I have talked about a

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few of those. Yeah. I know Wild at

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Heart has meant a lot to you. Mhmm.

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So therapist, author,

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and

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we have an organization called Wild at Heart.

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We do

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spiritual retreats for men and women,

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not only here in The US, but around

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the world.

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And, yeah, our work is helping people heal.

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Yeah. That's awesome. And, yeah, like you said,

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the Wild at Heart, book has impacted me

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with as well as thousands and tens of

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thousands of of men and, I guess, women

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across the world as well. I'm curious because

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it's been about twenty five years now since

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you published that. Is that right? Good memory.

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Yeah. I I knew it was around the

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turn of the century. Right? Yeah. I think

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we're at '24. I think we had the

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Okay. Twenty fifth anniversary is next year. And

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the wild part of that story, Kurt, is

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that it's still going. Yeah. It's still going.

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It's still helping men become good men

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and helping women understand the men in their

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lives, particularly

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raising boys.

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I've heard from so many moms

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who have just said thank you for helping

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me understand these little boys in my care.

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Yeah. So and we continue to do wild

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heart films and

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retreats.

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Yeah. Yeah. And I'm just curious, like,

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you know, I remember back in the day

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when, you know, Stephen Covey came out with

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the seven habits of highly effective people. Then

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years later, you know, he came out with

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the the eighth habit. Like, he had discovered

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one more habit. You know?

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Well, the heart you talk about, the three

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core desires of man's heart, you know, and

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the, battle to fight and to venture to

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live and a beauty to love. Do you

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feel like I mean, over these years, is

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there a fourth, John? Have you discovered more

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than Oh, that's good. To those things, or

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what do you think? Well, I we certainly

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learned a lot. And, obviously, culture has changed,

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Kirk. Yeah. Wow. Has culture changed.

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So I did add some content

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to the new book

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for

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men and families wrestling

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simply with gender identity

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because that's that's become a a source of

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a lot of heartache, particularly for young people.

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And when Wild at Heart came out twenty

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four years ago,

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that wasn't really on the table that this

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is a new emergent thing. So the culture

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has changed.

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There's almost nothing in Wild at Heart on

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men and technology.

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Mhmm. But technology

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has just

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devoured me. I mean, they're obsessed with it,

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spend tons of hours on it. So I

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would say those two things are probably big.

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And we've also learned a lot more about

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healing the human soul and how that works.

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So

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these ideas these two ideas are in the

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book, but let me say them out loud.

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Every boy has two core needs, not just

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one. They have two core needs.

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And the first is, do you love me?

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And do I have what it takes? So

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there's belovedness,

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am I beloved? And do I have what

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it takes?

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Do I have a strength,

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a genuine courage, a genuine,

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you know, just self that can make a

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difference in the world. I'm not gonna be

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overwhelmed by life. I'm actually gonna conquer life.

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And those he looks primarily to dad for

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the answers to those two questions. Now he

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absolutely looks to mom too. Yeah. And

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mother wounds can be some of the deepest

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wounds that we need to heal from.

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But those two needs, I don't know that

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I made those as clear twenty four years

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ago as I do when I teach now

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because you can just see men looking for

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love, looking for validation,

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you know, pornography

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and money and, you know, extreme sports and

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all that stuff.

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They're looking for it. They're looking for that

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sense of I'm loved. I have what it

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takes. So I think as we as parents,

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if we can really breathe that into our

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sons and our daughters when they're young,

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man, we set them up to succeed.

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Yeah. And I'm glad you brought that up

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because I'm seeing this in the last few

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years, sort of this movement, especially in, you

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know, Christian circles of sometimes

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we, we feel like, oh, I think it,

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the problem with men is the church has

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gone too soft on them and we just

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actually need them really hard things and really

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come at them with duty and, you know,

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responsibility and let's get to work, man. Right?

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And of course, in the right setting, and

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some may need that, you know, that I

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think that connects to like the battle to

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fight, right? That we do need

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that resistance. We need to come together in

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a tribe and march towards a goal. But

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sometimes we dismiss this, what I think is

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like a foundational

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concept of like, actually that little boy inside

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of each of us needs

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that validation from a God saying, no, you

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are loved. Like you Yes. You are precious

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to me. Right? And, and I don't know,

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sometimes we skip over that too quickly because

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it feels like that's too soft, you know?

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Any thoughts that come to that? Yeah. You

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know, this is interesting because we can talk

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about it right brain, left brain also.

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So we have had an overdeveloped

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left brain approach

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to men in particular. It's reason. It's, you

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know, critical thinking. It's decision making skills. It's

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discipline.

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Right? But you literally have two hemispheres

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to your brain. And the right hemisphere is

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intuition.

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It's music. And the interesting thing is the

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right brain is connection.

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It's relational.

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It doesn't think in terms of, you know,

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kind of rational propositions. It thinks in terms

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of connection.

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And so what we're just describing is men

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need to be whole. Yeah. Women as well

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need to be whole. You know? Yes to

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the left brain, and that we'll get into

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this, I'm sure, today. The left brain is

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like Internet life.

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Research, show me the facts, give me the

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latest science, you know, looking stuff up. But

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the right brain

269
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is play

270
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and joy and beauty and wonder.

271
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And I just think it's beautiful that God

272
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literally made us

273
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with two halves

274
00:10:10,065 --> 00:10:11,985
that are meant to be whole. You know,

275
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we're meant to live from both. And teaching

276
00:10:14,945 --> 00:10:16,464
men, you know, a lot of our work

277
00:10:16,464 --> 00:10:18,464
is teaching men, yeah, to be more in

278
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touch with their

279
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history, their woundedness,

280
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not to

281
00:10:24,529 --> 00:10:27,590
invite them to weakness, but instead to heal

282
00:10:28,210 --> 00:10:30,529
so that they can be stronger. Yeah. That's

283
00:10:30,529 --> 00:10:32,690
really helpful. And I'm just curious, maybe put

284
00:10:32,690 --> 00:10:34,034
you on the spot a little bit, but

285
00:10:34,194 --> 00:10:36,034
right now I'm in charge of the men's

286
00:10:36,034 --> 00:10:38,595
group in my, church. And, you know, in

287
00:10:38,595 --> 00:10:40,274
our faith tradition, we have, you know, about

288
00:10:40,274 --> 00:10:43,315
an hour more of a formal meeting. We

289
00:10:43,315 --> 00:10:45,554
call it sacramenting where we participate in the

290
00:10:45,554 --> 00:10:48,190
communion or sacrament. And then the next hour,

291
00:10:48,190 --> 00:10:49,950
at least every other week is, you know,

292
00:10:49,950 --> 00:10:51,710
the women go to their side of the

293
00:10:51,710 --> 00:10:53,070
building, men go to our side of the

294
00:10:53,070 --> 00:10:55,309
building and we try and engage in a

295
00:10:55,309 --> 00:10:55,809
spiritual,

296
00:10:56,830 --> 00:10:57,330
thoughtful

297
00:10:57,789 --> 00:10:59,549
interaction there. And usually, you know, we're in

298
00:10:59,549 --> 00:11:01,934
the scriptures or reading, you know, commentary or

299
00:11:02,074 --> 00:11:04,954
things about scripture. And sometimes we don't know

300
00:11:04,954 --> 00:11:06,394
how to approach that. So I'm just curious,

301
00:11:06,394 --> 00:11:07,914
like, if you were to give a a

302
00:11:07,914 --> 00:11:10,714
quick, like, training on, like, how can leaders

303
00:11:10,714 --> 00:11:13,034
walk into a room full of Christian men

304
00:11:13,034 --> 00:11:15,514
and engage with them on a weekly or

305
00:11:15,514 --> 00:11:16,815
every other week basis?

306
00:11:17,250 --> 00:11:20,210
Yeah. Because both are important. Right? Study is

307
00:11:20,210 --> 00:11:23,350
important. Growing, learning, wisdom is important.

308
00:11:23,730 --> 00:11:25,809
I think the simple practice of what we

309
00:11:25,809 --> 00:11:26,790
call a check-in,

310
00:11:27,250 --> 00:11:29,410
you could build that into your meeting and

311
00:11:29,410 --> 00:11:31,009
say, hey. Before we get started in our

312
00:11:31,009 --> 00:11:32,230
study or our conversation,

313
00:11:32,855 --> 00:11:34,235
let's all do a check-in.

314
00:11:34,615 --> 00:11:36,634
And first, you just have them check-in

315
00:11:37,014 --> 00:11:40,154
themselves. Right? How are you? Just tune in.

316
00:11:40,295 --> 00:11:42,295
Are you coming in anxious? Are you coming

317
00:11:42,295 --> 00:11:45,014
in mad? Like, how are you? What is

318
00:11:45,014 --> 00:11:47,639
the condition of your soul? You can build

319
00:11:47,639 --> 00:11:49,959
that in really comfortably. Hey, guys. Let's just

320
00:11:49,959 --> 00:11:50,860
do our check-in.

321
00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:53,079
And then depending on the size of the

322
00:11:53,079 --> 00:11:55,000
group, and you could even have a little

323
00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,079
bit of conversation around that. You go, well,

324
00:11:57,079 --> 00:11:59,159
how are you doing? How are you coming

325
00:11:59,159 --> 00:12:01,159
in here? And you have a little bit

326
00:12:01,159 --> 00:12:02,620
of dialogue around that

327
00:12:02,964 --> 00:12:06,004
would be again, that activates the right side

328
00:12:06,004 --> 00:12:08,644
of the brain and it engages the heart

329
00:12:08,644 --> 00:12:10,725
and it helps you to be more more

330
00:12:10,725 --> 00:12:11,544
fully human

331
00:12:12,004 --> 00:12:12,985
in our discipleship

332
00:12:13,684 --> 00:12:14,345
to Jesus.

333
00:12:14,964 --> 00:12:17,605
So simple practice like that, a check-in would

334
00:12:17,605 --> 00:12:19,879
be great. Yeah. I love that. That's really

335
00:12:19,879 --> 00:12:22,039
helpful. And it takes my mind to this

336
00:12:22,039 --> 00:12:23,959
instance. What I did one week is I

337
00:12:23,959 --> 00:12:25,559
I did a spectrogram. We were in the

338
00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:27,399
the gymnasium part of the church, so we

339
00:12:27,399 --> 00:12:29,159
kinda had a place to spread out there.

340
00:12:29,159 --> 00:12:31,095
And I did a spectrogram saying, hey. Alright,

341
00:12:31,095 --> 00:12:32,454
guys. On on this side of the room,

342
00:12:32,454 --> 00:12:34,375
you know, stand where on the scale where

343
00:12:34,375 --> 00:12:36,774
you feel most resonates. So on on this

344
00:12:36,774 --> 00:12:38,855
wall, you know, this far wall, that's like

345
00:12:38,855 --> 00:12:41,334
life is terrible, never been worse, you know,

346
00:12:41,334 --> 00:12:43,254
in the pits. The other side has never

347
00:12:43,254 --> 00:12:45,350
been better. Right? And it was interesting to

348
00:12:45,350 --> 00:12:47,669
see the bell curve, you know, form amongst

349
00:12:47,669 --> 00:12:49,669
that group. There are probably 35 to 40

350
00:12:49,669 --> 00:12:50,649
guys in the room

351
00:12:51,429 --> 00:12:53,429
and identifying. I resonate so much with this

352
00:12:53,429 --> 00:12:55,429
group as it's the I'm fine group. You

353
00:12:55,429 --> 00:12:56,789
know? It's like, no. No. Check-in. Like, how

354
00:12:56,789 --> 00:12:58,549
are you? Well Yeah. I don't know. I'm

355
00:12:58,549 --> 00:13:00,274
fine. You know? And cause I think there's

356
00:13:00,274 --> 00:13:01,555
a lot of, like, in my story, I

357
00:13:01,555 --> 00:13:03,955
don't have a story of, you know, tragic

358
00:13:03,955 --> 00:13:06,675
abandonment or abuse in my in my background.

359
00:13:06,675 --> 00:13:08,995
And so you kinda get going in life

360
00:13:08,995 --> 00:13:10,514
and you're doing the things, you got the

361
00:13:10,514 --> 00:13:11,795
job, you're trying to show up for the

362
00:13:11,795 --> 00:13:12,615
kids and

363
00:13:12,995 --> 00:13:14,730
I think I'm fine. Right? Is there and

364
00:13:14,809 --> 00:13:16,329
and sort of wanna be like, well, I

365
00:13:16,329 --> 00:13:18,169
mean, if you're fine, like, why do you

366
00:13:18,169 --> 00:13:19,850
need a healer? Why do you need a

367
00:13:19,850 --> 00:13:22,169
redeemer? You know, like, where's the entrance point

368
00:13:22,169 --> 00:13:24,649
into that wounding when they've kinda feel like

369
00:13:24,649 --> 00:13:25,769
I'm fine? Like, what do you do with

370
00:13:25,769 --> 00:13:27,945
the I'm fine guy? Yeah. Yeah. I would

371
00:13:27,945 --> 00:13:29,625
I would have a big place on the

372
00:13:29,625 --> 00:13:31,725
floor that says, I'm exhausted

373
00:13:32,424 --> 00:13:33,404
on that spectrum

374
00:13:33,865 --> 00:13:36,424
because most of the guys will go stand

375
00:13:36,424 --> 00:13:39,865
there. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the entry point.

376
00:13:39,865 --> 00:13:41,245
You see, such as woundedness,

377
00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:43,799
although every person gets wounded in this world,

378
00:13:43,799 --> 00:13:45,879
you know, we continue you know, your your

379
00:13:45,879 --> 00:13:48,139
spouse may leave you. Your child,

380
00:13:48,519 --> 00:13:50,540
my goodness, might be killed in an automobile

381
00:13:50,759 --> 00:13:52,679
accident. You know, it's not just that it's

382
00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:53,820
childhood things.

383
00:13:54,315 --> 00:13:57,195
But if we just take most people's daily

384
00:13:57,195 --> 00:13:59,774
experience, the world is just a draining place.

385
00:14:00,235 --> 00:14:01,455
Yeah. And

386
00:14:01,915 --> 00:14:03,915
you take Psalm 23,

387
00:14:03,915 --> 00:14:04,735
you restore

388
00:14:05,115 --> 00:14:07,695
my soul. The soul needs to be restored.

389
00:14:08,059 --> 00:14:09,980
And so just to allow guys to go,

390
00:14:09,980 --> 00:14:11,679
I'm okay, but I'm exhausted.

391
00:14:12,220 --> 00:14:14,399
I'm spun up. I'm depleted.

392
00:14:14,779 --> 00:14:16,720
I'm I'm running on fumes.

393
00:14:17,419 --> 00:14:19,659
That's the entry point. Yeah. Just those and

394
00:14:19,659 --> 00:14:21,100
I have to frame is, like, just the

395
00:14:21,100 --> 00:14:22,860
tensions of life. Like, where do you feel

396
00:14:22,860 --> 00:14:24,605
that tension? Because we all have it. Right?

397
00:14:24,605 --> 00:14:26,125
Where it's like, man, I can't stand that

398
00:14:26,125 --> 00:14:28,845
boss or, yeah, I'm fine, but we'd all

399
00:14:28,845 --> 00:14:29,585
know that

400
00:14:30,045 --> 00:14:31,644
you you hate going to work or, you

401
00:14:31,644 --> 00:14:33,245
know, the Yeah. You don't know how to

402
00:14:33,245 --> 00:14:34,925
connect with your kid or, you know, there's

403
00:14:34,925 --> 00:14:37,180
always something Yeah. Yeah. Or you can't figure

404
00:14:37,180 --> 00:14:38,560
out how you're gonna pay the bills.

405
00:14:39,019 --> 00:14:40,800
Yeah. You know, financial tensions,

406
00:14:41,420 --> 00:14:43,440
you know, one of the number one stressors

407
00:14:43,580 --> 00:14:44,399
in a marriage.

408
00:14:44,779 --> 00:14:47,019
And teenage kids and all that they get

409
00:14:47,019 --> 00:14:49,420
exposed to in the world now, like, yeah,

410
00:14:49,420 --> 00:14:51,995
just maybe giving guys a few more options

411
00:14:53,095 --> 00:14:54,235
of I'm tense.

412
00:14:55,735 --> 00:14:58,455
I'm exhausted. And and I would I would

413
00:14:58,455 --> 00:15:00,475
say something in the category of

414
00:15:00,934 --> 00:15:02,715
the future looks daunting.

415
00:15:03,254 --> 00:15:05,335
Yeah. That's really that resonates really well with

416
00:15:05,335 --> 00:15:07,329
men. Well, I appreciate it kinda

417
00:15:07,629 --> 00:15:10,190
entertaining that just the those concepts of men's

418
00:15:10,190 --> 00:15:12,029
work and faith because sometimes we lose so

419
00:15:12,029 --> 00:15:13,949
many men when we don't intend to. It's

420
00:15:13,949 --> 00:15:14,449
just

421
00:15:14,829 --> 00:15:16,669
we don't know how to connect at times

422
00:15:16,669 --> 00:15:19,230
or or create an experience that really draws

423
00:15:19,230 --> 00:15:21,404
them in. But when you do, it's amazing

424
00:15:21,404 --> 00:15:23,485
the transformation that can happen. And on that

425
00:15:23,485 --> 00:15:25,485
note, like, tell me about, like, obviously, you've

426
00:15:25,485 --> 00:15:27,805
been doing these Wildheart boot camps for years

427
00:15:27,805 --> 00:15:30,125
now, this experience type of thing. Because, you

428
00:15:30,125 --> 00:15:31,965
know, I've I've participated in some of these,

429
00:15:31,965 --> 00:15:34,524
at least the basic, you know, Wildheart basic

430
00:15:34,524 --> 00:15:36,949
type of experiences. And and to bring others

431
00:15:36,949 --> 00:15:38,809
there, it's sort of like, why I mean,

432
00:15:38,870 --> 00:15:40,389
I go to church. Like, why do I

433
00:15:40,389 --> 00:15:42,389
need to come to this gathering of men

434
00:15:42,389 --> 00:15:44,250
type of thing? How do you best approach

435
00:15:44,549 --> 00:15:46,309
men and and with who are who are

436
00:15:46,309 --> 00:15:48,309
not sure why they need to have this,

437
00:15:48,309 --> 00:15:50,294
you know, three, four day experience

438
00:15:51,074 --> 00:15:53,574
that you you offer. Yeah. And, again,

439
00:15:54,034 --> 00:15:56,674
as you were describing them, the entry points

440
00:15:56,674 --> 00:15:58,375
for men are so different.

441
00:15:58,754 --> 00:16:00,514
And so you you need to kinda listen

442
00:16:00,514 --> 00:16:02,514
for the entry points. And if he's just

443
00:16:02,514 --> 00:16:03,654
feeling like he's

444
00:16:04,090 --> 00:16:05,309
failing as a dad,

445
00:16:05,769 --> 00:16:08,250
that's the entry point. It's it's like, I'm

446
00:16:08,250 --> 00:16:10,669
missing my kids, man. I'm getting angry.

447
00:16:11,129 --> 00:16:13,210
I'm really busy right now at work. You

448
00:16:13,210 --> 00:16:16,029
go, okay. So, like, you need some encouragement

449
00:16:16,924 --> 00:16:17,424
and

450
00:16:17,804 --> 00:16:19,725
some guidance and some help as a dad.

451
00:16:19,725 --> 00:16:21,485
That's an entry point. And a lot of

452
00:16:21,485 --> 00:16:23,644
guys come to our work or read Wild

453
00:16:23,644 --> 00:16:25,245
at Heart because of that entry point. I

454
00:16:25,245 --> 00:16:27,164
just wanna be a better dad. I need

455
00:16:27,164 --> 00:16:30,120
some help. For other guys, it's the full

456
00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:32,120
blown addiction, man. I mean, come on. If

457
00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:33,559
you can get a guy to be honest

458
00:16:33,559 --> 00:16:37,420
with you, he's into porn. He's into fentanyl.

459
00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:40,279
He's he's got something going on the side.

460
00:16:40,279 --> 00:16:42,840
Let's just admit that. Right? And that can

461
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,554
be a phenomenal entry point. Come for your

462
00:16:45,554 --> 00:16:48,694
sexuality. Come for your addiction. Come for freedom.

463
00:16:48,995 --> 00:16:50,834
Come to break out of that that you're

464
00:16:50,834 --> 00:16:52,914
hiding from everyone, but, you know, it's tearing

465
00:16:52,914 --> 00:16:55,314
you up inside. See how there's different entry

466
00:16:55,314 --> 00:16:56,694
points for guys?

467
00:16:57,074 --> 00:16:58,914
Yeah. And then for a number of men,

468
00:16:58,914 --> 00:17:00,134
they just get lost.

469
00:17:00,629 --> 00:17:03,029
Like, what's my calling? What's my purpose in

470
00:17:03,029 --> 00:17:04,970
life? What am I supposed to be doing?

471
00:17:05,269 --> 00:17:07,509
I mean, I'm I'm earning a living and

472
00:17:07,509 --> 00:17:09,109
maybe I'm you know, maybe some guys are

473
00:17:09,109 --> 00:17:11,190
doing a great job with money, but, like

474
00:17:11,349 --> 00:17:13,609
yeah. And then what? Like, what's my purpose?

475
00:17:14,115 --> 00:17:16,694
That's a big entry point for men. Yeah.

476
00:17:16,755 --> 00:17:18,914
And to say, yep. That's we wanna talk

477
00:17:18,914 --> 00:17:21,494
to that. We wanna speak to purpose, meaning,

478
00:17:21,555 --> 00:17:22,055
identity.

479
00:17:22,755 --> 00:17:24,755
And all that stuff, as you know, goes

480
00:17:24,755 --> 00:17:26,115
on at a at a well at heart

481
00:17:26,115 --> 00:17:28,454
basic or or one of our live events.

482
00:17:28,515 --> 00:17:30,259
Yeah. Yeah. That for me, you know, as

483
00:17:30,259 --> 00:17:32,019
as president of the, you know, I'm fine

484
00:17:32,019 --> 00:17:34,339
club, you know, going to that experience and

485
00:17:34,339 --> 00:17:36,119
hearing the larger story,

486
00:17:36,500 --> 00:17:38,980
you know, sort of orientation meeting. Yes. Right?

487
00:17:38,980 --> 00:17:41,299
I've been like, oh, like, yeah. I'm fine,

488
00:17:41,299 --> 00:17:43,545
but look at the larger story that that

489
00:17:43,545 --> 00:17:45,865
I'm in, and there's actually more that God's

490
00:17:45,865 --> 00:17:47,384
inviting me into that I'm kind of putting

491
00:17:47,384 --> 00:17:49,065
off because, hey, you know, I'm fine. That'll

492
00:17:49,065 --> 00:17:51,644
come later. Yeah. So it was really transformational

493
00:17:51,704 --> 00:17:54,569
in that way. Yeah. Very good. Well, let's

494
00:17:54,730 --> 00:17:57,950
pivot towards your your latest book, Experience Jesus

495
00:17:58,250 --> 00:17:58,750
Really.

496
00:17:59,210 --> 00:18:00,970
And this is part of a, I guess,

497
00:18:00,970 --> 00:18:02,649
you would just call it a a trio,

498
00:18:02,649 --> 00:18:05,230
a trilogy here as the last trilogy. Yeah.

499
00:18:05,450 --> 00:18:07,369
Did you always anticipate it to be three

500
00:18:07,369 --> 00:18:08,970
books, or did it kinda lead in one

501
00:18:08,970 --> 00:18:10,914
or the other? No. No. And I didn't

502
00:18:10,914 --> 00:18:12,994
really even realize it was a trilogy until

503
00:18:12,994 --> 00:18:14,375
the third one came along.

504
00:18:15,075 --> 00:18:17,634
When the pandemic happened, literally, the month of

505
00:18:17,634 --> 00:18:19,474
the pandemic, we rolled out a book called

506
00:18:19,474 --> 00:18:22,035
Get Your Life Back, and the timing obviously

507
00:18:22,035 --> 00:18:23,875
could not have been better because everybody felt

508
00:18:23,875 --> 00:18:26,200
like they lost their life. Yeah. And then

509
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,279
a couple years into that, so 2022,

510
00:18:30,279 --> 00:18:32,119
'20 '20 '3, we rolled out a book

511
00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:32,940
called Resilient

512
00:18:33,799 --> 00:18:36,220
Mhmm. Because we were really trying to address,

513
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:37,974
you know, the thing I was saying, the

514
00:18:37,974 --> 00:18:39,815
world is just a draining place. I don't

515
00:18:39,815 --> 00:18:41,494
care who you are. I don't care how

516
00:18:41,494 --> 00:18:43,734
amazing your life is. The world is a

517
00:18:43,734 --> 00:18:45,034
very draining place.

518
00:18:45,575 --> 00:18:47,034
Chaos, the politics,

519
00:18:47,414 --> 00:18:49,115
you know, the constant changes,

520
00:18:49,815 --> 00:18:50,554
the tensions.

521
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:52,720
And so came out with a book called

522
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,279
Resilient, helping people, you know, learn the ways

523
00:18:55,279 --> 00:18:57,039
to come back to being a a truly

524
00:18:57,039 --> 00:18:59,759
resilient person and not just getting through your

525
00:18:59,759 --> 00:19:01,859
day. And then this last one

526
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,240
is the deep end of the pool. Like

527
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:06,825
and I'm really surprised, Kurt. When I wrote

528
00:19:06,825 --> 00:19:08,125
this book, I'm like, well,

529
00:19:08,505 --> 00:19:10,585
this might only appeal to a few you

530
00:19:10,585 --> 00:19:12,044
know, a certain kind of person.

531
00:19:12,505 --> 00:19:14,444
And, wow, we are getting

532
00:19:14,904 --> 00:19:15,724
just phenomenal

533
00:19:16,585 --> 00:19:19,679
responses to this all across the age groups

534
00:19:19,679 --> 00:19:21,679
and the gender, you know, man male and

535
00:19:21,679 --> 00:19:22,179
female.

536
00:19:22,559 --> 00:19:24,819
And, yeah, it's it's resonating with people.

537
00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:27,460
You may have been familiar with the Barna

538
00:19:27,519 --> 00:19:29,380
study they did on faith.

539
00:19:29,759 --> 00:19:30,740
They did a longitudinal

540
00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:31,619
study

541
00:19:32,224 --> 00:19:34,224
that all of us can point to someone

542
00:19:34,224 --> 00:19:34,965
we know.

543
00:19:35,585 --> 00:19:36,644
One and two

544
00:19:37,025 --> 00:19:39,025
people of faith have walked away in the

545
00:19:39,025 --> 00:19:41,744
last twenty years. Wow. They're just not interested

546
00:19:41,744 --> 00:19:43,825
anymore. Yeah. And we can all tell that

547
00:19:43,825 --> 00:19:46,720
story. It's like, oh, yeah. My brother-in-law or,

548
00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:48,960
oh, yeah. You know, my 22 year old

549
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:50,900
daughter or you know? And

550
00:19:51,519 --> 00:19:53,220
when I talk to those people,

551
00:19:53,519 --> 00:19:55,839
when I listen to their stories, most of

552
00:19:55,839 --> 00:19:56,980
it is disappointment

553
00:19:58,000 --> 00:19:59,539
that they didn't really experience

554
00:20:00,319 --> 00:20:00,819
God.

555
00:20:01,224 --> 00:20:02,904
Like, I went to church. I did the

556
00:20:02,904 --> 00:20:05,384
deal. You know? I didn't really have much

557
00:20:05,384 --> 00:20:08,105
of an experience there. And so this third

558
00:20:08,105 --> 00:20:10,524
book is, yeah, really written around

559
00:20:11,144 --> 00:20:13,884
the human soul is made

560
00:20:14,345 --> 00:20:15,164
for intimacy

561
00:20:16,024 --> 00:20:16,764
with God.

562
00:20:17,069 --> 00:20:19,710
Jesus gives the metaphor, I am the vine,

563
00:20:19,710 --> 00:20:20,769
you are the branches.

564
00:20:21,470 --> 00:20:21,970
And

565
00:20:22,589 --> 00:20:25,169
that the branches draw their life,

566
00:20:25,549 --> 00:20:26,450
their nourishment,

567
00:20:26,750 --> 00:20:29,890
their sustenance. You literally, like, get their immune

568
00:20:29,950 --> 00:20:30,450
system

569
00:20:31,974 --> 00:20:35,015
from the vine. And Internet life, and we

570
00:20:35,015 --> 00:20:37,335
can kinda talk about this, would be important

571
00:20:37,335 --> 00:20:38,554
today to talk about this.

572
00:20:38,855 --> 00:20:40,554
You know, we've literally been

573
00:20:40,855 --> 00:20:41,355
conditioned

574
00:20:42,134 --> 00:20:42,634
away

575
00:20:43,174 --> 00:20:45,115
from that vine branch union.

576
00:20:45,460 --> 00:20:48,019
Mhmm. We've been conditioned against it, which is

577
00:20:48,019 --> 00:20:50,820
really truly evil that people are being, like,

578
00:20:50,820 --> 00:20:54,580
hardened to it or can calloused away from

579
00:20:54,580 --> 00:20:56,580
it. You know, one, just the pace of

580
00:20:56,580 --> 00:20:57,080
life

581
00:20:57,744 --> 00:20:58,244
because

582
00:20:59,025 --> 00:21:01,684
enjoying God, being in the presence of Jesus,

583
00:21:02,065 --> 00:21:04,625
hearing his voice, you have to learn how

584
00:21:04,625 --> 00:21:05,284
to linger.

585
00:21:05,664 --> 00:21:07,505
Right? And if you're just going boom, boom,

586
00:21:07,505 --> 00:21:08,544
boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom,

587
00:21:08,544 --> 00:21:09,845
boom through your day,

588
00:21:10,210 --> 00:21:11,509
and then the Internet,

589
00:21:11,890 --> 00:21:13,650
you know, you're familiar with with what the

590
00:21:13,650 --> 00:21:15,570
content of the book is. But Yeah. In

591
00:21:15,570 --> 00:21:17,490
the early parts, I talk about we are

592
00:21:17,490 --> 00:21:19,970
all disciples of the Internet. And by that,

593
00:21:19,970 --> 00:21:21,269
I don't mean the content

594
00:21:21,650 --> 00:21:23,330
because people look up all kinds of different

595
00:21:23,330 --> 00:21:24,690
things. You say, no. I'm not I'm not

596
00:21:24,690 --> 00:21:26,174
a disciple. You go, yeah. But you're a

597
00:21:26,174 --> 00:21:27,554
disciple of the process.

598
00:21:28,015 --> 00:21:31,474
Yeah. Every day, we all look stuff up.

599
00:21:31,934 --> 00:21:32,434
Okay?

600
00:21:32,734 --> 00:21:35,054
Everybody. It's like, oh, yeah. Who was the

601
00:21:35,054 --> 00:21:37,554
fourteenth president of The United States? Or,

602
00:21:37,855 --> 00:21:39,869
oh, yeah. What you know, what is what

603
00:21:39,869 --> 00:21:41,869
is Putin doing today? Or, you know, just

604
00:21:41,869 --> 00:21:43,630
whatever. Right? We look this up. What's the

605
00:21:43,630 --> 00:21:45,710
proper temperature to bake a potato? I don't

606
00:21:45,710 --> 00:21:47,950
know. Let's look it up. But here's the

607
00:21:47,950 --> 00:21:48,450
thing.

608
00:21:48,750 --> 00:21:50,210
You get an immediate answer.

609
00:21:50,670 --> 00:21:52,609
I mean, boom. Talk about satisfaction.

610
00:21:52,990 --> 00:21:54,924
Boom. Yeah. Not only do you get one,

611
00:21:54,924 --> 00:21:56,144
you get, like, 3,000,000

612
00:21:56,684 --> 00:21:57,184
answers

613
00:21:57,644 --> 00:21:58,144
instantly.

614
00:21:58,605 --> 00:22:01,825
And and this has conditioned the human soul

615
00:22:01,965 --> 00:22:02,865
over time

616
00:22:03,485 --> 00:22:04,465
to be impatient.

617
00:22:05,164 --> 00:22:07,105
But learning to linger

618
00:22:07,660 --> 00:22:08,480
in the beautiful,

619
00:22:08,940 --> 00:22:10,720
wonderful presence of Jesus,

620
00:22:11,420 --> 00:22:13,119
you gotta be able to do that.

621
00:22:13,579 --> 00:22:15,839
Right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So

622
00:22:16,380 --> 00:22:19,039
modern life in all of its pressures, tensions,

623
00:22:19,180 --> 00:22:21,200
pace, but particularly Internet

624
00:22:21,724 --> 00:22:23,105
life, Internet discipleship,

625
00:22:23,644 --> 00:22:26,924
has conditioned the human soul against the vine

626
00:22:26,924 --> 00:22:28,144
and branch relationship,

627
00:22:29,085 --> 00:22:32,144
the very thing that's gonna save your life.

628
00:22:33,085 --> 00:22:35,740
Right? Yeah. That's where this third book comes

629
00:22:35,740 --> 00:22:37,820
in. Yeah. It's really powerful. And it I

630
00:22:37,820 --> 00:22:39,980
mean, your work and just being more mindful

631
00:22:39,980 --> 00:22:42,380
of that dynamic is really helped me. I

632
00:22:42,380 --> 00:22:44,539
remember and, you know, some days where like,

633
00:22:44,539 --> 00:22:46,315
here's the thing. They get like, for me,

634
00:22:46,315 --> 00:22:47,835
I don't have, like, people could follow me

635
00:22:47,835 --> 00:22:50,335
around all day. There's no, like, hidden stigmatized

636
00:22:50,715 --> 00:22:52,075
sin that I have. I mean, of course

637
00:22:52,075 --> 00:22:53,914
I have sin. I'm imperfect, but, but I

638
00:22:53,914 --> 00:22:55,434
mean, you're not gonna catch me doing anything

639
00:22:55,434 --> 00:22:56,255
that's completely,

640
00:22:56,634 --> 00:22:58,894
you know, that would be super embarrassing,

641
00:22:59,195 --> 00:23:00,920
whatever it is. But nonetheless,

642
00:23:01,220 --> 00:23:03,140
like, I noticed in, like, one day in

643
00:23:03,140 --> 00:23:06,019
particular, just a really busy day, long day,

644
00:23:06,019 --> 00:23:08,340
lots to do, focusing everywhere, traveling a little

645
00:23:08,340 --> 00:23:10,340
bit. And I get home and all I

646
00:23:10,340 --> 00:23:12,420
wanna do is lay on my bed, open

647
00:23:12,420 --> 00:23:14,414
a social media app, and look at funny

648
00:23:14,414 --> 00:23:16,515
memes that my brother sent me. Right? Yes.

649
00:23:16,575 --> 00:23:18,174
And so but it sort of stopped me

650
00:23:18,174 --> 00:23:20,894
like, woah. Like, I am turning to this

651
00:23:21,455 --> 00:23:23,215
you know, there's nothing wrong with a funny

652
00:23:23,215 --> 00:23:25,695
meme. There's nothing wrong with social media. I

653
00:23:25,695 --> 00:23:28,730
mean, basically speaking. But when I'm turning to

654
00:23:28,730 --> 00:23:30,029
it as an escape,

655
00:23:30,490 --> 00:23:32,730
as a place to just numb out, like,

656
00:23:32,730 --> 00:23:34,569
okay. Maybe there's a moment I can set

657
00:23:34,569 --> 00:23:36,730
that down and turn to prayer and just

658
00:23:36,730 --> 00:23:39,744
sit and recognize these feelings that I'm looking

659
00:23:39,744 --> 00:23:41,424
for peace, you know, as as you put

660
00:23:41,424 --> 00:23:44,005
it, I'm looking for Yes. The the garden,

661
00:23:44,065 --> 00:23:46,384
right? Yeah. To return to, you know, the

662
00:23:46,384 --> 00:23:47,605
Garden of Eden to

663
00:23:47,904 --> 00:23:49,585
the the something that's gonna fill my soul,

664
00:23:49,585 --> 00:23:51,345
like a relationship with God. And so Yes.

665
00:23:51,424 --> 00:23:53,105
It's really helped me just to kind of

666
00:23:53,105 --> 00:23:55,450
receive these knee jerk reactions that I have

667
00:23:55,690 --> 00:23:58,809
Yes. You know, just dealing with life. Yeah.

668
00:23:58,809 --> 00:24:00,730
That's good. That's good. Because we all do

669
00:24:00,730 --> 00:24:02,329
that. Like, we can all relate to that.

670
00:24:02,329 --> 00:24:04,429
Just let me scroll. Just let me veg.

671
00:24:04,490 --> 00:24:05,929
Let me let me get on YouTube and

672
00:24:05,929 --> 00:24:07,609
look up. You know, I wanna watch all

673
00:24:07,609 --> 00:24:10,304
those little shorts and Yeah. And then depending

674
00:24:10,304 --> 00:24:11,825
on what your flavor is. I wanna I

675
00:24:11,825 --> 00:24:12,565
wanna watch

676
00:24:12,865 --> 00:24:15,345
news. I wanna watch, you know, history of

677
00:24:15,345 --> 00:24:17,105
World War two. I want you know? Yeah.

678
00:24:17,105 --> 00:24:19,684
Well, that'll feed you, man. There's an unending

679
00:24:19,904 --> 00:24:22,224
well there that you can just get distracted

680
00:24:22,224 --> 00:24:24,224
and lost in this. But what you are

681
00:24:24,224 --> 00:24:25,524
tuning into is,

682
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:26,779
I'm just agitated.

683
00:24:27,799 --> 00:24:29,660
My soul is not at rest.

684
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,559
I'm looking for something to soothe that. Right?

685
00:24:33,559 --> 00:24:35,799
And some people turn to memes, and some

686
00:24:35,799 --> 00:24:37,720
people turn to alcohol, and some peep you

687
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:39,875
know, on and on you go. What

688
00:24:40,174 --> 00:24:42,894
Jesus says is come unto me all you

689
00:24:42,894 --> 00:24:44,734
who are weary and heavy laden, and I

690
00:24:44,734 --> 00:24:47,134
will give you rest. He he wants to

691
00:24:47,134 --> 00:24:48,195
be the solace,

692
00:24:48,894 --> 00:24:50,494
the care that we need. And it's not

693
00:24:50,494 --> 00:24:52,994
that we don't also enjoy these other things.

694
00:24:53,055 --> 00:24:54,195
Get out in the yard,

695
00:24:54,529 --> 00:24:57,490
play some hoops. You know? Yeah. It's not

696
00:24:57,569 --> 00:24:59,329
Jesus isn't saying, all I want you to

697
00:24:59,329 --> 00:25:02,130
do is have a spiritual life. Okay? He's

698
00:25:02,130 --> 00:25:03,889
just saying, yeah. But you're not turning to

699
00:25:03,889 --> 00:25:06,289
me at all. Yeah. I'm I am the

700
00:25:06,289 --> 00:25:07,349
rare occasion

701
00:25:08,049 --> 00:25:11,305
rather than your daily. Right? Yeah. And so

702
00:25:11,305 --> 00:25:12,664
often, at least in my experience, and I've

703
00:25:12,664 --> 00:25:14,424
seen others where it's like, well, I mean,

704
00:25:14,424 --> 00:25:16,105
come on. I'm I do the church thing

705
00:25:16,105 --> 00:25:18,424
every week and, yeah, our family gather for

706
00:25:18,424 --> 00:25:20,025
a quick prayer in the morning or whatever,

707
00:25:20,025 --> 00:25:22,424
but I really want I just, again, look

708
00:25:22,424 --> 00:25:25,240
at the life of Jesus of, like, that

709
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,720
full dependency on the father. Right? The way

710
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,839
that he really oriented himself time and time

711
00:25:30,839 --> 00:25:33,160
again to the father, you know, and, you

712
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:34,599
know, that's that's what I want. And so

713
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:36,440
but it's so dark. Like, well, this is

714
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,359
2025. This is different. Like, no, it's not

715
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,335
different. It doesn't have to be different. Yeah.

716
00:25:40,414 --> 00:25:42,494
To really be in that full dependency with

717
00:25:42,494 --> 00:25:44,494
God. Yeah. That's really good to go that

718
00:25:44,494 --> 00:25:46,095
direction for a minute. Because I was chatting

719
00:25:46,095 --> 00:25:48,015
with a guy the other day, and he

720
00:25:48,015 --> 00:25:50,015
was telling me about how he came to

721
00:25:50,015 --> 00:25:51,714
Christ. And he said,

722
00:25:52,174 --> 00:25:53,934
for him, he said it actually didn't begin

723
00:25:53,934 --> 00:25:55,474
with a conviction of sin.

724
00:25:55,980 --> 00:25:56,480
He

725
00:25:56,859 --> 00:25:58,319
was looking for life.

726
00:25:58,779 --> 00:25:59,920
He was chasing

727
00:26:00,299 --> 00:26:04,380
life hard and nothing was needing that emptiness

728
00:26:04,380 --> 00:26:05,440
in his soul.

729
00:26:05,740 --> 00:26:07,660
You know, the god shaped vacuum in the

730
00:26:07,660 --> 00:26:10,059
human soul. He came in through what he

731
00:26:10,059 --> 00:26:11,200
called desire.

732
00:26:11,934 --> 00:26:14,195
Right? Like, the desire of the soul.

733
00:26:14,575 --> 00:26:16,914
And we gotta keep that front and forward,

734
00:26:16,974 --> 00:26:19,394
folks. Like, your soul is made

735
00:26:19,855 --> 00:26:22,974
to feed on God. God is joy. God

736
00:26:22,974 --> 00:26:25,394
is life. God is awesome.

737
00:26:25,934 --> 00:26:26,434
Like,

738
00:26:26,849 --> 00:26:28,929
we're not being Debbie Downer here. If you

739
00:26:28,929 --> 00:26:30,309
need to say more prayers

740
00:26:31,009 --> 00:26:31,509
Right.

741
00:26:32,690 --> 00:26:33,829
That the apologetic

742
00:26:34,130 --> 00:26:36,210
of desire is one of the most powerful

743
00:26:36,210 --> 00:26:38,289
things in the universe is that we are

744
00:26:38,289 --> 00:26:40,869
drawn to things that bring us joy.

745
00:26:41,284 --> 00:26:43,444
We are drawn to things that bring us

746
00:26:43,444 --> 00:26:46,024
life. You know, if if opening your motorcycle

747
00:26:46,325 --> 00:26:47,944
wide open out on the highway,

748
00:26:48,244 --> 00:26:50,724
you know, you're looking for joy. Right? Yeah.

749
00:26:50,724 --> 00:26:52,345
Yeah. We're drawn to that.

750
00:26:52,724 --> 00:26:55,044
That's how God made us. And so I'll

751
00:26:55,044 --> 00:26:57,859
be honest. I would read, like, Psalms like

752
00:26:57,859 --> 00:27:01,059
Psalm 63. And and David says, your love

753
00:27:01,059 --> 00:27:03,220
is better than life. And I would I

754
00:27:03,220 --> 00:27:06,019
would respect that. I would say, well, I

755
00:27:06,019 --> 00:27:08,679
respect you. I believe you, David.

756
00:27:09,095 --> 00:27:11,355
I don't personally know that myself,

757
00:27:12,615 --> 00:27:14,535
but this is the scripture, and so I

758
00:27:14,535 --> 00:27:16,615
respect it. Right? But you go, no. No.

759
00:27:16,615 --> 00:27:18,295
No. No. No. He he's telling you that

760
00:27:18,295 --> 00:27:20,375
because he wants you to experience it too.

761
00:27:20,375 --> 00:27:22,394
It's the apologetic of desire.

762
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,600
Right? It's like bring your longings, bring your

763
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,080
search for love, bring your search for life

764
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,039
to God. Jesus wants to meet you in

765
00:27:31,039 --> 00:27:32,180
your desire.

766
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,940
And then here's the awesome thing is that

767
00:27:36,144 --> 00:27:38,565
you don't have to discipline yourself

768
00:27:39,184 --> 00:27:41,984
to pray. You don't have to discipline yourself

769
00:27:41,984 --> 00:27:43,744
to read the scriptures. Could or do all

770
00:27:43,744 --> 00:27:45,184
the things that you do that help you

771
00:27:45,184 --> 00:27:46,704
find God. You know, you take the dogs

772
00:27:46,704 --> 00:27:48,704
for a walk. You go sit on your

773
00:27:48,704 --> 00:27:50,384
back porch. You you know, all the things

774
00:27:50,384 --> 00:27:52,259
you do. You're not gonna have to be

775
00:27:52,259 --> 00:27:53,640
convinced to do this

776
00:27:54,019 --> 00:27:55,880
because your soul has found

777
00:27:56,180 --> 00:27:57,400
the source of life.

778
00:27:57,860 --> 00:27:59,860
Yeah. And you're talking about this concept of

779
00:27:59,860 --> 00:28:02,100
being an f a spiritual amphibian. I don't

780
00:28:02,100 --> 00:28:03,779
know the Yes. Exact way you frame it,

781
00:28:03,779 --> 00:28:05,914
but of, you know, being in the world,

782
00:28:05,914 --> 00:28:07,275
but not of the world type of thing,

783
00:28:07,275 --> 00:28:09,434
you know, that, yeah, we gotta we got

784
00:28:09,434 --> 00:28:11,115
the job, we gotta do the things, the

785
00:28:11,115 --> 00:28:14,075
soccer practice, whatever, but we can easily just

786
00:28:14,075 --> 00:28:16,394
orient ourselves back to that spiritual realm where

787
00:28:16,394 --> 00:28:18,315
we are from. Like, that's where our soul

788
00:28:18,555 --> 00:28:20,440
Yes. It was created. Right? And That's right.

789
00:28:20,559 --> 00:28:22,640
That's what our soul desires. So Yes. It

790
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:24,159
it is kind of that that dance at

791
00:28:24,159 --> 00:28:26,559
times. Yes. And what what we're trying to

792
00:28:26,559 --> 00:28:29,299
help people understand is it's both and. Yeah.

793
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,159
You were literally made to enjoy friends and

794
00:28:32,159 --> 00:28:34,575
laughter and the news and whatever it is

795
00:28:34,575 --> 00:28:35,394
you enjoy.

796
00:28:36,015 --> 00:28:38,595
And you are also created to

797
00:28:38,894 --> 00:28:42,255
feed on, be nourished by the presence of

798
00:28:42,255 --> 00:28:44,335
Jesus in your life. Jesus says, I'm the

799
00:28:44,335 --> 00:28:47,054
bread of life. What does that mean? So

800
00:28:47,054 --> 00:28:49,380
I want to nourish you. I wanna be

801
00:28:49,380 --> 00:28:52,099
a source of nourishment. It's both. K? And

802
00:28:52,099 --> 00:28:54,339
what's fascinating about a true amphibian, you take

803
00:28:54,339 --> 00:28:56,660
a frog, if you keep it only in

804
00:28:56,660 --> 00:28:57,160
water,

805
00:28:57,539 --> 00:28:58,359
it will die.

806
00:28:58,660 --> 00:29:00,900
If you put it only on dry land,

807
00:29:00,900 --> 00:29:03,299
it will die. It's gotta move back and

808
00:29:03,299 --> 00:29:05,684
forth, back and forth. Right?

809
00:29:05,984 --> 00:29:08,065
Yeah. And so I use the ideas of

810
00:29:08,065 --> 00:29:08,964
being amphibians

811
00:29:09,744 --> 00:29:11,984
that in God's great kingdom, there's part of

812
00:29:11,984 --> 00:29:13,605
the kingdom we can see,

813
00:29:13,984 --> 00:29:15,744
you know, and it's the morning, and it's

814
00:29:15,744 --> 00:29:19,210
the sunrise, and it's your breakfast, and your

815
00:29:19,210 --> 00:29:21,930
bike ride. Yep. All that's great. And it's

816
00:29:21,930 --> 00:29:23,609
also the world that you can't see, the

817
00:29:23,609 --> 00:29:25,849
unseen realm, which is partly the presence of

818
00:29:25,849 --> 00:29:27,710
God with you. And he's here.

819
00:29:28,009 --> 00:29:30,170
And learning to enjoy him and listen to

820
00:29:30,170 --> 00:29:32,009
him and invite him into your day. Let

821
00:29:32,009 --> 00:29:33,309
him guide you.

822
00:29:33,664 --> 00:29:36,144
Let him into the family decision making. Where

823
00:29:36,144 --> 00:29:38,544
are we gonna vacation this year? You know?

824
00:29:38,544 --> 00:29:40,784
What are we gonna do together? What's fun

825
00:29:40,784 --> 00:29:43,605
this weekend? Like, letting God into your life.

826
00:29:43,664 --> 00:29:45,825
You're moving back and forth like a true

827
00:29:45,825 --> 00:29:47,684
amphibian between the two realms.

828
00:29:48,079 --> 00:29:50,579
And that is the way human beings flourish.

829
00:29:51,039 --> 00:29:53,279
Yeah. And you've given several examples both in

830
00:29:53,279 --> 00:29:54,799
your podcast and in this book that I've

831
00:29:54,799 --> 00:29:57,200
really it's really helped me sort of stop

832
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,039
and and be more intentional in this way

833
00:29:59,039 --> 00:30:01,125
of, like, you know, it's so easy for

834
00:30:01,125 --> 00:30:02,965
us to be like, oh, yeah. We're taking

835
00:30:02,965 --> 00:30:05,365
the kids to, you know, to North Carolina

836
00:30:05,365 --> 00:30:06,724
this summer. Let's we gotta get on the

837
00:30:06,724 --> 00:30:08,404
plane tickets, gotta do this and this. But

838
00:30:08,404 --> 00:30:10,085
to be like, wait, wait, stop. Like, how

839
00:30:10,085 --> 00:30:12,750
can we invite God into this process? And,

840
00:30:12,750 --> 00:30:14,190
like, I don't know. Should we go to

841
00:30:14,349 --> 00:30:16,450
should we even go to North Carolina? Right?

842
00:30:16,750 --> 00:30:18,269
Like, I mean, we we haven't even considered.

843
00:30:18,269 --> 00:30:19,549
It's like, well, of course, it's summertime. That's

844
00:30:19,549 --> 00:30:20,990
what you do. Right? Like, no. No. Like,

845
00:30:20,990 --> 00:30:22,670
what what if there's something more there? Right?

846
00:30:22,670 --> 00:30:24,269
And so to just pause and say, why

847
00:30:24,269 --> 00:30:26,430
don't we pray over this? Yep. And really

848
00:30:26,430 --> 00:30:26,930
consider

849
00:30:27,445 --> 00:30:29,285
why we're doing this and the purpose in

850
00:30:29,285 --> 00:30:30,965
it. Right? And so, you've got so many

851
00:30:30,965 --> 00:30:33,605
examples of just being more intentional of of

852
00:30:33,605 --> 00:30:35,285
being that amphibian of being like, yeah, we're

853
00:30:35,285 --> 00:30:36,724
we're sort of in the world. We're doing

854
00:30:36,724 --> 00:30:39,045
the worldly things right now, but where's the

855
00:30:39,045 --> 00:30:40,965
entry point for God to actually guide us

856
00:30:40,965 --> 00:30:42,724
in this and Yeah. Make this a sanctifying

857
00:30:42,724 --> 00:30:45,420
process? There you go. Yeah. That's really good.

858
00:30:45,420 --> 00:30:46,880
And I most of my examples

859
00:30:47,900 --> 00:30:48,480
are negative.

860
00:30:49,019 --> 00:30:51,820
You know? Stuff we didn't invite him into,

861
00:30:51,820 --> 00:30:53,660
and then it blew up. And Yeah. And

862
00:30:53,660 --> 00:30:55,694
then you feel so disappointed because you're like,

863
00:30:55,694 --> 00:30:57,714
like, come on. That that was summer vacation.

864
00:30:57,855 --> 00:30:59,694
Like, that should have been refreshing, and it

865
00:30:59,694 --> 00:31:00,434
was exhausting.

866
00:31:01,134 --> 00:31:02,815
Yeah. I know. And it's like, yeah. You

867
00:31:02,815 --> 00:31:03,875
didn't even ask.

868
00:31:04,734 --> 00:31:06,335
You know? And I come back with God,

869
00:31:06,335 --> 00:31:08,575
and I'm all disappointed. And he's like, look.

870
00:31:08,575 --> 00:31:10,414
I love you, but you didn't even involve

871
00:31:10,414 --> 00:31:12,950
me in any of that. You know? It's

872
00:31:12,950 --> 00:31:15,429
like, oh, yeah. Sorry. And then on the

873
00:31:15,429 --> 00:31:18,009
positive side, as we learn to do that,

874
00:31:18,149 --> 00:31:20,089
the number of things he has

875
00:31:20,549 --> 00:31:21,769
encouraged us to do

876
00:31:22,230 --> 00:31:24,169
that ended up being so full of joy

877
00:31:24,484 --> 00:31:25,765
that I would never have done. Like, it

878
00:31:25,765 --> 00:31:28,025
didn't even cross my mind. He's like, hey.

879
00:31:28,085 --> 00:31:30,244
Why don't you guys, for this Christmas, you

880
00:31:30,244 --> 00:31:32,644
know, go see your uncle and and go,

881
00:31:32,644 --> 00:31:35,525
you know, tubing. Go snow tubing. It's like,

882
00:31:35,525 --> 00:31:37,940
oh, okay. And it ends up being this

883
00:31:37,940 --> 00:31:40,580
big joyful family thing that happens Yeah. Because

884
00:31:40,580 --> 00:31:42,900
we asked, because we invited him in. We

885
00:31:42,900 --> 00:31:43,960
acted like amphibians.

886
00:31:44,339 --> 00:31:46,740
Like, we acted like the spiritual beings we

887
00:31:46,740 --> 00:31:49,720
are in a physical world. Yeah. That's powerful.

888
00:31:49,859 --> 00:31:51,265
So So talk to me about this concept

889
00:31:51,265 --> 00:31:53,605
of being a mystic. You know, this term,

890
00:31:53,825 --> 00:31:55,365
you know, being a mystic or mysticism,

891
00:31:55,825 --> 00:31:57,585
I guess, I haven't really used in my

892
00:31:57,585 --> 00:31:59,585
faith tradition a lot. And it almost feel

893
00:31:59,585 --> 00:32:01,184
like even being unfamiliar with it at the

894
00:32:01,184 --> 00:32:02,945
beginning, I'm kinda like, that sounds almost like

895
00:32:02,945 --> 00:32:04,580
a is wasn't that in Harry Potter? Like,

896
00:32:04,580 --> 00:32:06,580
isn't that a wizard word or something? You

897
00:32:06,580 --> 00:32:08,420
know, it almost seems a little bit separate.

898
00:32:08,420 --> 00:32:10,259
Like, what what is a mystic exactly? Right?

899
00:32:10,259 --> 00:32:11,779
And you do a great job of unpacking

900
00:32:11,779 --> 00:32:13,860
this. So, I mean, what is the deal

901
00:32:13,860 --> 00:32:15,940
with being a mystic? Yeah. Sometimes you have

902
00:32:15,940 --> 00:32:17,799
to use words that startle

903
00:32:18,295 --> 00:32:20,634
to help people out of the white noise.

904
00:32:21,174 --> 00:32:21,674
So,

905
00:32:22,454 --> 00:32:24,134
again, you don't know what you don't know.

906
00:32:24,134 --> 00:32:26,795
You were born into an era, everybody,

907
00:32:27,335 --> 00:32:30,954
where left brain approach to life was highly

908
00:32:31,255 --> 00:32:34,080
esteemed. And then the Internet just baked this

909
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,259
into you. It's fact finding.

910
00:32:36,559 --> 00:32:39,600
And the left brain thrives on show me

911
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:40,340
the facts.

912
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:42,240
You know? And so if you're trying to

913
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,320
convince somebody to do anything these days, you've

914
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:45,940
gotta quote the latest research.

915
00:32:46,384 --> 00:32:48,384
Right? Like, hey. Did you hear, you know,

916
00:32:48,384 --> 00:32:50,544
that that if you do more vitamin b

917
00:32:50,544 --> 00:32:52,865
twelve, you actually have more endurance through the

918
00:32:52,865 --> 00:32:55,105
day. You know? Yeah. Like, you've gotta quote

919
00:32:55,105 --> 00:32:57,424
the reason. I mean, this is everybody's lingua

920
00:32:57,424 --> 00:32:59,284
franca now. It's left brain,

921
00:32:59,630 --> 00:33:00,450
give me the

922
00:33:00,910 --> 00:33:02,210
facts, make it pragmatic.

923
00:33:02,910 --> 00:33:05,309
But you actually have another hemisphere to your

924
00:33:05,309 --> 00:33:07,470
brain. You have a right brain. And the

925
00:33:07,470 --> 00:33:10,369
right brain is joy and connection and relationship.

926
00:33:10,910 --> 00:33:12,830
And the right brain literally looks at the

927
00:33:12,830 --> 00:33:14,610
world differently. It uses

928
00:33:15,404 --> 00:33:15,904
intuition

929
00:33:16,605 --> 00:33:17,505
and music

930
00:33:17,884 --> 00:33:18,945
and beauty.

931
00:33:19,565 --> 00:33:21,904
And when you fall in love, for example,

932
00:33:22,365 --> 00:33:23,664
it's not your left brain.

933
00:33:24,445 --> 00:33:25,884
You're not like, well, I made a pro

934
00:33:25,884 --> 00:33:27,585
and con list, Debbie, and

935
00:33:27,910 --> 00:33:30,069
the pros outweigh the cons, and so I

936
00:33:30,069 --> 00:33:31,990
think I like you. You know? It's not

937
00:33:31,990 --> 00:33:34,009
how it goes. Right? So

938
00:33:34,390 --> 00:33:35,529
the idea of

939
00:33:36,069 --> 00:33:39,349
being a mystic, quote, unquote, is everybody is.

940
00:33:39,349 --> 00:33:40,710
They just didn't know it. You know? Like,

941
00:33:40,710 --> 00:33:42,329
if you believe in God, you're a mystic

942
00:33:42,625 --> 00:33:44,164
because you can't see him.

943
00:33:44,464 --> 00:33:46,544
Mhmm. Right? He's not on the table there

944
00:33:46,544 --> 00:33:48,384
in front of you. It's different. It's a

945
00:33:48,384 --> 00:33:49,684
different way of knowing.

946
00:33:49,984 --> 00:33:51,765
It's a different way of relating.

947
00:33:52,384 --> 00:33:54,625
It's a different way of being in the

948
00:33:54,625 --> 00:33:55,125
world.

949
00:33:56,150 --> 00:33:58,169
And a lot of what we have lost

950
00:33:58,630 --> 00:34:00,169
in this hour of

951
00:34:00,470 --> 00:34:00,970
overdeveloped

952
00:34:01,269 --> 00:34:03,609
left brain, give me the facts, hardcore,

953
00:34:04,069 --> 00:34:05,929
we've actually lost wonder.

954
00:34:06,470 --> 00:34:07,289
We've lost

955
00:34:07,910 --> 00:34:10,489
mystery. By the way, the left brain hates

956
00:34:10,550 --> 00:34:11,050
mystery.

957
00:34:11,375 --> 00:34:12,755
And it it literally

958
00:34:13,135 --> 00:34:14,434
will take a hostile

959
00:34:14,815 --> 00:34:17,234
posture to anything it can't understand.

960
00:34:17,694 --> 00:34:19,855
K? But you look at little children, you

961
00:34:19,855 --> 00:34:22,194
know, they're watching a caterpillar

962
00:34:22,655 --> 00:34:23,714
build a chrysalis.

963
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,860
It's a 16 legged little furry thing.

964
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,000
It goes in this chrysalis. It comes out

965
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:29,660
this gorgeous

966
00:34:30,599 --> 00:34:31,099
flying

967
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:31,900
creature

968
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,539
that knows its way to Mexico.

969
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,465
And they're just filled with wonder. Right? It's

970
00:34:39,465 --> 00:34:41,625
like, oh, the world is a great place.

971
00:34:41,625 --> 00:34:44,765
It's filled with magic and beauty and awe.

972
00:34:44,825 --> 00:34:47,325
Right? But the critical left brain adult goes,

973
00:34:47,865 --> 00:34:49,785
I wonder what the science is behind that.

974
00:34:49,785 --> 00:34:51,750
I wonder how that actually you know? And

975
00:34:51,750 --> 00:34:53,829
we lose the mystery and the wonder in

976
00:34:53,829 --> 00:34:54,809
so much of life.

977
00:34:55,110 --> 00:34:57,210
I'm just gonna ask people, do you enjoy

978
00:34:57,670 --> 00:34:58,730
sunsets anymore?

979
00:34:59,349 --> 00:35:00,170
Do you enjoy

980
00:35:00,869 --> 00:35:01,369
snowfall?

981
00:35:02,070 --> 00:35:02,969
Do you play

982
00:35:03,429 --> 00:35:05,610
anymore? Like, do you just goof around?

983
00:35:06,614 --> 00:35:08,315
Because pace of life,

984
00:35:08,775 --> 00:35:10,235
overdeveloped left brain.

985
00:35:10,614 --> 00:35:13,355
I'm urging people back to become ordinary

986
00:35:13,735 --> 00:35:16,135
mystics. And I put the word ordinary in

987
00:35:16,135 --> 00:35:17,815
because people have may have heard of some

988
00:35:17,815 --> 00:35:19,815
of the, like, the famous saints or whatever.

989
00:35:19,815 --> 00:35:22,219
And I'm not talking about this isn't for

990
00:35:22,219 --> 00:35:24,559
special people. This is for ordinary

991
00:35:24,940 --> 00:35:27,280
folks. You're meant to have a

992
00:35:28,139 --> 00:35:28,639
childlike

993
00:35:29,340 --> 00:35:31,760
joy and wonder in this world

994
00:35:32,219 --> 00:35:34,644
and to experience God. I mean, you know,

995
00:35:34,644 --> 00:35:36,904
my cards are on the table. Experience Jesus

996
00:35:37,045 --> 00:35:39,444
period. Really period is on the cover of

997
00:35:39,444 --> 00:35:40,105
the book.

998
00:35:40,724 --> 00:35:41,545
Right? Because

999
00:35:42,005 --> 00:35:44,804
this beautiful life with Jesus Christ is meant

1000
00:35:44,804 --> 00:35:46,105
to be deeply

1001
00:35:46,964 --> 00:35:47,464
experiential.

1002
00:35:48,219 --> 00:35:49,599
Not just, like, occasionally.

1003
00:35:50,059 --> 00:35:52,320
Oh, yeah. No. I remember that time.

1004
00:35:52,780 --> 00:35:54,860
It was really comforting. Or, oh, yeah. I

1005
00:35:54,860 --> 00:35:57,340
remember that time. Remember once, I really felt

1006
00:35:57,340 --> 00:35:59,579
like he did guide us. You know? That's

1007
00:35:59,579 --> 00:36:01,119
that's supposed to be your daily.

1008
00:36:01,420 --> 00:36:03,125
Yeah. And that's you know, I I catch

1009
00:36:03,125 --> 00:36:04,244
myself in this, and I see it in

1010
00:36:04,244 --> 00:36:05,925
our in our faith community as well. You

1011
00:36:05,925 --> 00:36:07,364
know, especially in a time where there's so

1012
00:36:07,364 --> 00:36:10,905
many YouTube channels of, you know, scriptural scholars

1013
00:36:10,965 --> 00:36:14,140
and ancient biblical researchers. Right? Like and we

1014
00:36:14,260 --> 00:36:15,460
I get stuck in this thing of like,

1015
00:36:15,460 --> 00:36:17,300
oh, worshiping God is when you like sit

1016
00:36:17,300 --> 00:36:19,140
down and you like dig into the Hebrew,

1017
00:36:19,140 --> 00:36:21,059
the Greek translation, and you're tying this together.

1018
00:36:21,059 --> 00:36:24,099
It's a very intellectual left brain experience. Yep.

1019
00:36:24,099 --> 00:36:26,099
When I have to remind myself, actually, you

1020
00:36:26,099 --> 00:36:28,019
know, today I just need to sit and

1021
00:36:28,019 --> 00:36:30,545
listen to a worship song and just be

1022
00:36:30,545 --> 00:36:32,304
with God. Like, I don't need to learn

1023
00:36:32,304 --> 00:36:35,025
anything or, you know, have any deep, you

1024
00:36:35,025 --> 00:36:38,644
know, academic, you know, understanding of some scriptural

1025
00:36:38,864 --> 00:36:40,704
knowledge. I just need to be more of

1026
00:36:40,704 --> 00:36:42,944
a relational being in the presence of God

1027
00:36:42,944 --> 00:36:45,125
rather than an intellectual being. Right?

1028
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,039
Oh, that's so good, Kurt. That's so good.

1029
00:36:48,039 --> 00:36:50,440
Okay. Let's come in from that door. So

1030
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:52,380
we are highly relational

1031
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:53,340
beings.

1032
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,940
Why else would they have chosen solitary confinement

1033
00:36:57,559 --> 00:36:59,775
as a form of torture? I mean, it's

1034
00:36:59,775 --> 00:37:02,175
brutal on the human soul, like, to be

1035
00:37:02,175 --> 00:37:03,795
deprived of contact.

1036
00:37:04,175 --> 00:37:06,655
K? Because we are made in the image

1037
00:37:06,655 --> 00:37:09,054
of a highly relational God. I mean, he

1038
00:37:09,054 --> 00:37:09,795
calls himself

1039
00:37:10,175 --> 00:37:10,675
father.

1040
00:37:11,030 --> 00:37:14,389
Right? A very relational term. Right? And then

1041
00:37:14,389 --> 00:37:16,469
you look at where what brings people joy?

1042
00:37:16,469 --> 00:37:18,309
You know, it's the birth of a child.

1043
00:37:18,309 --> 00:37:21,269
It's hanging out with friends. It's that awesome

1044
00:37:21,269 --> 00:37:23,849
Christmas morning where everybody was just laughing.

1045
00:37:24,309 --> 00:37:25,849
It's relational connection.

1046
00:37:26,355 --> 00:37:28,835
Right? Some of our deepest joys are relational

1047
00:37:28,835 --> 00:37:29,335
connection.

1048
00:37:29,715 --> 00:37:31,715
Okay. Well, you gotta bring that into your

1049
00:37:31,715 --> 00:37:33,954
life with God. So what yeah. What you

1050
00:37:33,954 --> 00:37:36,275
were saying is the left brain has a

1051
00:37:36,275 --> 00:37:38,835
wonderful place in our life, but it was

1052
00:37:38,835 --> 00:37:41,655
actually never meant to be the master.

1053
00:37:42,250 --> 00:37:43,950
It was meant to serve

1054
00:37:44,570 --> 00:37:46,269
the right brain and the heart,

1055
00:37:46,650 --> 00:37:47,869
which is about relationship

1056
00:37:48,730 --> 00:37:50,430
and joy and love.

1057
00:37:50,969 --> 00:37:53,369
Right? Your kids don't wanna know how much

1058
00:37:53,369 --> 00:37:54,030
you know.

1059
00:37:54,329 --> 00:37:56,590
Your kids wanna hang out with you.

1060
00:37:57,289 --> 00:38:00,194
Yeah. It really is a a helpful framing

1061
00:38:00,194 --> 00:38:02,434
of that of how to approach God differently,

1062
00:38:02,434 --> 00:38:05,234
you know, rather than this intellectual heaviness of

1063
00:38:05,234 --> 00:38:07,954
this. So Yeah. Yeah. That's great. So this

1064
00:38:07,954 --> 00:38:09,635
concept of of being a mystic, as you

1065
00:38:09,635 --> 00:38:11,429
you don't unpack it, I'm like, okay. Good.

1066
00:38:11,429 --> 00:38:13,269
I'm more and more comfortable with this term,

1067
00:38:13,269 --> 00:38:14,789
you know, and and what it is. Is

1068
00:38:14,789 --> 00:38:16,710
it do you find just in the general

1069
00:38:16,710 --> 00:38:17,690
traditional Christian

1070
00:38:18,150 --> 00:38:20,069
circles, like, do a lot of Christians kinda

1071
00:38:20,069 --> 00:38:21,989
have an issue with sort of this concept

1072
00:38:21,989 --> 00:38:23,789
of being a mystic and and Oh, yeah.

1073
00:38:23,909 --> 00:38:25,954
What does that look like? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

1074
00:38:25,954 --> 00:38:28,434
Because it sounds woo woo. Right? Yeah. Woo

1075
00:38:28,434 --> 00:38:29,094
woo. Yeah.

1076
00:38:29,474 --> 00:38:32,835
And because wait. Weren't the heretics? Weren't those

1077
00:38:32,835 --> 00:38:35,235
guys heretics? Or now but the problem is

1078
00:38:35,235 --> 00:38:37,315
now. So, folks, we gotta we also need

1079
00:38:37,315 --> 00:38:38,775
to know something about our moment.

1080
00:38:39,150 --> 00:38:43,150
So the Internet life, overdeveloped left brain, give

1081
00:38:43,150 --> 00:38:43,969
me the pragmatic,

1082
00:38:44,589 --> 00:38:47,389
is not a satisfying life. So because you're

1083
00:38:47,389 --> 00:38:48,989
a whole human being. You're not half a

1084
00:38:48,989 --> 00:38:51,855
human being. Here's what's going on, Kurt. There

1085
00:38:51,855 --> 00:38:53,474
is the spiritual

1086
00:38:53,855 --> 00:38:54,355
world

1087
00:38:54,655 --> 00:38:57,855
is bursting out all over the place. The

1088
00:38:57,855 --> 00:39:00,014
fastest growing or one of the fastest growing

1089
00:39:00,014 --> 00:39:03,389
religions in America is Wicca. Right? Yeah.

1090
00:39:03,710 --> 00:39:07,170
Yeah, man. People are looking for something spiritual.

1091
00:39:07,230 --> 00:39:09,469
They're hungry for it because they've been deprived

1092
00:39:09,469 --> 00:39:10,769
of it so many years.

1093
00:39:11,069 --> 00:39:12,589
And so people are going down and doing,

1094
00:39:12,589 --> 00:39:13,409
you know, Ayahuasca

1095
00:39:13,710 --> 00:39:14,210
ceremonies

1096
00:39:14,909 --> 00:39:17,789
and trying to tap into the divine or

1097
00:39:17,789 --> 00:39:19,914
whatever, you know. That's mysticism

1098
00:39:20,375 --> 00:39:22,635
also. It's just the dark side.

1099
00:39:22,934 --> 00:39:25,655
Gotcha. Right? And so, yeah, people are concerned

1100
00:39:25,655 --> 00:39:27,355
about that, and I wanna say,

1101
00:39:27,655 --> 00:39:29,734
well done. You should be. And so that's

1102
00:39:29,734 --> 00:39:32,000
why I root it in the tradition

1103
00:39:32,780 --> 00:39:35,900
of Christian and even Hebrew, like David's life.

1104
00:39:35,900 --> 00:39:38,000
You know, when David says things like,

1105
00:39:38,460 --> 00:39:41,360
you satisfy me more than the riches feast.

1106
00:39:41,820 --> 00:39:44,380
Well, he's describing a personal encounter with the

1107
00:39:44,380 --> 00:39:46,559
living God that was so wonderful.

1108
00:39:47,394 --> 00:39:49,394
It's like better than the best banquet he

1109
00:39:49,394 --> 00:39:51,974
could have gone to. K? So that's experiential.

1110
00:39:52,595 --> 00:39:55,735
Yeah. That's right brain. Okay? That's mystical

1111
00:39:56,275 --> 00:39:58,914
in that sense. Right? But he's deeply grounded

1112
00:39:58,914 --> 00:40:01,219
in the scriptures. He's not winging off. He's

1113
00:40:01,219 --> 00:40:03,000
like, no. No. The one living God,

1114
00:40:03,539 --> 00:40:05,239
you, Lord. And so

1115
00:40:05,539 --> 00:40:07,639
we don't wanna take this off the rails

1116
00:40:07,940 --> 00:40:09,719
and say, all mysticism

1117
00:40:10,019 --> 00:40:10,679
is good.

1118
00:40:11,059 --> 00:40:11,559
No.

1119
00:40:11,945 --> 00:40:13,465
In the same way that we wouldn't say

1120
00:40:13,465 --> 00:40:16,425
all sexual expression is good. Yeah. Right? The

1121
00:40:16,425 --> 00:40:18,684
world does really terrible things with sexuality,

1122
00:40:19,224 --> 00:40:21,085
but we don't throw sexuality

1123
00:40:21,385 --> 00:40:22,284
out the window.

1124
00:40:22,905 --> 00:40:25,545
We redeem it. We make it holy. We

1125
00:40:25,545 --> 00:40:28,199
bring it back into the marriage covenant. Right?

1126
00:40:28,420 --> 00:40:30,500
Well, we do the same thing with the

1127
00:40:30,500 --> 00:40:32,180
experiential. So if you don't like the word

1128
00:40:32,180 --> 00:40:34,039
mystic, just use the word experiential.

1129
00:40:34,579 --> 00:40:36,900
Yeah. That we are meant to have a

1130
00:40:36,900 --> 00:40:37,800
very experiential

1131
00:40:38,260 --> 00:40:39,320
life with God,

1132
00:40:39,619 --> 00:40:42,224
not just know things about him, but know

1133
00:40:42,224 --> 00:40:44,545
him. K? So in the Old Testament, the

1134
00:40:44,545 --> 00:40:45,045
word

1135
00:40:45,585 --> 00:40:46,244
is yada.

1136
00:40:46,545 --> 00:40:48,865
The Hebrew word is yada for knowing. And

1137
00:40:48,865 --> 00:40:50,805
in the New Testament, the word is ginosko.

1138
00:40:51,345 --> 00:40:54,085
That's the Greek word. They are both deeply

1139
00:40:54,625 --> 00:40:55,125
experiential.

1140
00:40:56,059 --> 00:40:57,599
Deeply, deeply experiential

1141
00:40:58,699 --> 00:41:00,860
kinds of knowing. It's not that, you know,

1142
00:41:00,860 --> 00:41:03,260
the Internet, give me the facts, left brain.

1143
00:41:03,260 --> 00:41:04,239
It's a deeply

1144
00:41:05,420 --> 00:41:05,920
experiential

1145
00:41:06,300 --> 00:41:08,000
type of knowing. In fact, Ginosko

1146
00:41:08,744 --> 00:41:12,605
started getting used even for human intimate physical

1147
00:41:12,664 --> 00:41:13,164
relations.

1148
00:41:13,545 --> 00:41:15,565
And that shows you it's like, oh, woah.

1149
00:41:16,025 --> 00:41:17,565
Like, that's very experiential.

1150
00:41:17,864 --> 00:41:19,005
That's very intimate.

1151
00:41:19,384 --> 00:41:19,884
Yes.

1152
00:41:20,264 --> 00:41:22,204
That sort of experiential

1153
00:41:23,199 --> 00:41:23,699
intimacy

1154
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:26,480
is what we're designed for with God. And

1155
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,059
I've gotta use a word like ordinary mystic

1156
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,239
to yank people out of the Internet life

1157
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:33,539
and back into,

1158
00:41:34,079 --> 00:41:36,340
frankly, what was normal for agents.

1159
00:41:36,835 --> 00:41:38,114
And that I think is really effective in

1160
00:41:38,114 --> 00:41:39,715
doing that. And I appreciate just the you

1161
00:41:39,715 --> 00:41:42,035
know, you're talking about the some Christians singing

1162
00:41:42,035 --> 00:41:44,434
a very woo woo. I think in forgive

1163
00:41:44,434 --> 00:41:46,114
me for drawing this parallel, but is you

1164
00:41:46,114 --> 00:41:48,114
know, for our faith tradition as Latter day

1165
00:41:48,114 --> 00:41:50,230
Saints, you know, a lot of we get

1166
00:41:50,230 --> 00:41:51,670
a bad rap from a lot of Christians

1167
00:41:51,670 --> 00:41:53,989
because of these temples we build across the

1168
00:41:53,989 --> 00:41:56,309
globe. And, you know, the the list of

1169
00:41:56,309 --> 00:41:58,309
tropes of what the temple is and what

1170
00:41:58,309 --> 00:42:00,070
we do in there, in reality, all we're

1171
00:42:00,070 --> 00:42:02,070
saying is we are a mystic people, and

1172
00:42:02,070 --> 00:42:03,050
we build buildings

1173
00:42:03,444 --> 00:42:06,644
that represent Jesus, and we enter into his

1174
00:42:06,644 --> 00:42:07,144
realm

1175
00:42:07,525 --> 00:42:08,905
and have an experience

1176
00:42:09,444 --> 00:42:11,625
with him. And I encourage you we actually

1177
00:42:11,924 --> 00:42:14,244
the church, our church announced one going in

1178
00:42:14,244 --> 00:42:16,610
Colorado Springs. And, when they have the open

1179
00:42:16,610 --> 00:42:18,369
house, I encourage you to to walk through

1180
00:42:18,369 --> 00:42:20,230
that building and see the mysticism

1181
00:42:20,690 --> 00:42:22,930
Yes. Thank you. That we are trying to

1182
00:42:22,930 --> 00:42:24,450
reach for, that we are trying to reach

1183
00:42:24,450 --> 00:42:26,150
a different realm. And so Exactly.

1184
00:42:26,690 --> 00:42:29,890
We need to actually physically construct, like, God's

1185
00:42:29,890 --> 00:42:31,735
living room so we can go actually sit

1186
00:42:31,735 --> 00:42:33,175
in it. And that's the beauty of it

1187
00:42:33,175 --> 00:42:35,594
is that the vast majority of that experience

1188
00:42:35,735 --> 00:42:37,335
doesn't deal with a lot of talking. It's

1189
00:42:37,335 --> 00:42:38,454
a lot of sitting. It's a lot of

1190
00:42:38,454 --> 00:42:40,454
pondering. It's a lot of just connecting with

1191
00:42:40,454 --> 00:42:42,375
the divine. So as I was reading your

1192
00:42:42,375 --> 00:42:43,735
book, I'm like, oh, you know, this was

1193
00:42:43,815 --> 00:42:45,815
it was so validating to my faith experience

1194
00:42:45,815 --> 00:42:46,289
of

1195
00:42:46,690 --> 00:42:48,130
I need to get get there, get to

1196
00:42:48,130 --> 00:42:50,130
that realm as as often as possible. So

1197
00:42:50,289 --> 00:42:52,050
Yeah. There you go. It seemed woo woo,

1198
00:42:52,050 --> 00:42:54,130
but in the right framing and understanding, it's

1199
00:42:54,130 --> 00:42:56,390
like, oh, actually, you're just a amphibian

1200
00:42:57,170 --> 00:42:59,650
godly person. You know? That's right. That's right.

1201
00:42:59,650 --> 00:43:02,204
Yep. And then helping people live left brain

1202
00:43:02,204 --> 00:43:04,224
and right brain. Helping people live whole lives.

1203
00:43:04,605 --> 00:43:07,164
The scriptures say that the whole world is

1204
00:43:07,164 --> 00:43:08,704
filled with the glory of god.

1205
00:43:09,005 --> 00:43:11,405
Mhmm. So, like, when you're at the beach

1206
00:43:11,405 --> 00:43:13,164
and you're looking at the ocean and you

1207
00:43:13,164 --> 00:43:14,385
are in awe,

1208
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:16,519
you just love it. There's just something in

1209
00:43:16,519 --> 00:43:19,179
your soul. I just love being here right.

1210
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:21,260
That's right. Because God

1211
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,860
is present in his creation. Not because creation

1212
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,019
is God, but because God

1213
00:43:27,425 --> 00:43:28,885
loves creation too.

1214
00:43:29,184 --> 00:43:31,105
And he loves to meet you there in

1215
00:43:31,105 --> 00:43:33,184
things. You know, so you're watching the snow

1216
00:43:33,184 --> 00:43:35,025
out the window and you're just in awe

1217
00:43:35,025 --> 00:43:36,324
at the beauty of the world.

1218
00:43:36,784 --> 00:43:40,005
That is a kind of, quote, mystical communion.

1219
00:43:40,500 --> 00:43:42,920
Right? You're just allowing the transcendent

1220
00:43:43,940 --> 00:43:45,320
into your life again

1221
00:43:45,619 --> 00:43:47,159
and not being so pragmatic.

1222
00:43:47,539 --> 00:43:48,900
Yeah. That's good. And I and I appreciate

1223
00:43:48,900 --> 00:43:51,219
the how you reframe that of, like, of

1224
00:43:51,219 --> 00:43:53,619
it being experiential, where oftentimes we think, oh,

1225
00:43:53,619 --> 00:43:55,734
I need to go have scripture study. Like,

1226
00:43:55,734 --> 00:43:57,255
I'm supposed to do that. I'm supposed to

1227
00:43:57,255 --> 00:43:59,434
read the the scriptures, but instead of saying,

1228
00:43:59,494 --> 00:44:01,994
I'm actually gonna go have a godly experience.

1229
00:44:02,375 --> 00:44:04,054
Yep. And what does that look like today?

1230
00:44:04,054 --> 00:44:05,734
You know? And and asking God for maybe

1231
00:44:05,734 --> 00:44:08,070
that's how I'm gonna take my my dog

1232
00:44:08,070 --> 00:44:09,750
for a walk and and take a moment

1233
00:44:09,750 --> 00:44:11,510
by the pond down the street and and

1234
00:44:11,510 --> 00:44:14,150
just breathe into his essence or whatever it

1235
00:44:14,150 --> 00:44:15,910
is. Right? And just be present with him

1236
00:44:15,910 --> 00:44:17,670
or That's right. Yeah. Maybe I'm gonna spend

1237
00:44:17,670 --> 00:44:19,190
some time with some Psalms or, you know,

1238
00:44:19,190 --> 00:44:21,190
whatever it is. Yeah. Or I like your

1239
00:44:21,190 --> 00:44:22,469
thing of, I'm just gonna put on a

1240
00:44:22,469 --> 00:44:24,635
worship song. Yeah. And I'm just gonna sit

1241
00:44:24,635 --> 00:44:27,355
with it and just commune. Just let his

1242
00:44:27,355 --> 00:44:29,355
love be here and tell him yeah. I

1243
00:44:29,355 --> 00:44:30,795
just sit there and I go, Jesus, I

1244
00:44:30,795 --> 00:44:33,275
love you. Yeah. I just love you. I

1245
00:44:33,275 --> 00:44:35,355
love you, Lord Jesus. I love you. Because

1246
00:44:35,355 --> 00:44:36,954
it's the it's like the sea an enemy.

1247
00:44:36,954 --> 00:44:38,554
All the tension, all the pressure, all the

1248
00:44:38,554 --> 00:44:40,180
stress. The sea anemone closes

1249
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:42,400
up. That's your soul. But as you sit

1250
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:44,000
with Jesus and just say, I love you,

1251
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,400
turn a worship song on. Yeah. And I'll

1252
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,720
give a little tip here too. Put it

1253
00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:51,200
on a loop. Repeat the same song several

1254
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,900
times. Mhmm. Because your soul actually quiets down.

1255
00:44:55,144 --> 00:44:56,744
And then you become more aware of his

1256
00:44:56,744 --> 00:44:58,664
presence, and then you're gonna hear him saying,

1257
00:44:58,664 --> 00:45:01,065
I love you too. Yeah. And this is

1258
00:45:01,065 --> 00:45:02,585
a perfect place. If you don't mind, I

1259
00:45:02,585 --> 00:45:04,585
I wanna plug your Paws app, which I've

1260
00:45:04,585 --> 00:45:05,085
used,

1261
00:45:05,385 --> 00:45:07,800
if not daily, a a lot where it's

1262
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:09,480
just you can pick the amount of time

1263
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,079
you need to sit. It could be like,

1264
00:45:11,079 --> 00:45:13,019
okay. I'm about to just, you know, transition

1265
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:14,440
a point in my life. I'm done with

1266
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:16,199
my work day. I'm going back to, you

1267
00:45:16,199 --> 00:45:18,599
know, my family. Let's take five minutes. And

1268
00:45:18,599 --> 00:45:21,099
it's a simple you hit the the option

1269
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:23,025
and your voice is on there or you

1270
00:45:23,025 --> 00:45:24,464
can turn your voice off. You just want

1271
00:45:24,464 --> 00:45:26,625
the music. But I've appreciated just having a

1272
00:45:27,025 --> 00:45:29,505
like, I'm committing a specific time frame. Like,

1273
00:45:29,505 --> 00:45:31,184
okay, we're doing ten minutes. Like, I need

1274
00:45:31,184 --> 00:45:32,945
a good ten minutes and maybe I'll do

1275
00:45:32,945 --> 00:45:34,405
that twice over, right,

1276
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,599
of just sitting and and contemplating and and

1277
00:45:37,599 --> 00:45:39,360
connecting with God. It it really is a

1278
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:41,599
great free resource. Yeah. So it's called the

1279
00:45:41,599 --> 00:45:43,940
one minute pause or just pause.

1280
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,099
It's free in the App Store,

1281
00:45:46,559 --> 00:45:47,699
iPhone and Android.

1282
00:45:48,065 --> 00:45:49,825
And you can start with a sixty second

1283
00:45:49,825 --> 00:45:51,925
pause. You can just start with one minute,

1284
00:45:52,065 --> 00:45:53,925
and it's just learning to get quiet

1285
00:45:54,305 --> 00:45:55,684
and let go of things.

1286
00:45:55,985 --> 00:45:58,224
That's really lovely. Just kinda letting go of

1287
00:45:58,224 --> 00:46:00,305
it, all that you're carrying. And then there's

1288
00:46:00,305 --> 00:46:01,985
a three minute, and as Kurt was saying,

1289
00:46:01,985 --> 00:46:03,940
there's a five and a ten. And then

1290
00:46:03,940 --> 00:46:04,440
there's,

1291
00:46:04,820 --> 00:46:06,739
modules in there you can do. There's one

1292
00:46:06,739 --> 00:46:08,360
that's thirty days to resilience.

1293
00:46:08,980 --> 00:46:11,219
It's a lovely morning and evening practice, and

1294
00:46:11,219 --> 00:46:14,039
we're about to release in April a new

1295
00:46:14,099 --> 00:46:14,599
module

1296
00:46:14,980 --> 00:46:16,280
Oh, cool. Around

1297
00:46:16,724 --> 00:46:18,425
deeper experience of God,

1298
00:46:18,724 --> 00:46:19,864
more right brain

1299
00:46:20,325 --> 00:46:21,625
relational connectedness.

1300
00:46:22,085 --> 00:46:24,325
Yeah. That's powerful. I love it. As we

1301
00:46:24,325 --> 00:46:25,925
wrap up here, maybe talk to me just,

1302
00:46:25,925 --> 00:46:28,425
you know, speaking as a therapist as well.

1303
00:46:28,579 --> 00:46:30,260
Because this is oftentimes I feel like we

1304
00:46:30,260 --> 00:46:30,760
compartmentalize

1305
00:46:31,059 --> 00:46:32,579
these worlds a little bit. Like, yeah. You

1306
00:46:32,579 --> 00:46:34,340
know, you're having a hard time. Yeah. Maybe

1307
00:46:34,340 --> 00:46:36,500
go talk with your your bishop, your pastor,

1308
00:46:36,500 --> 00:46:39,059
whatever, and, you know, read some scriptures together.

1309
00:46:39,059 --> 00:46:40,420
And if but, oh, well, you know, you're

1310
00:46:40,420 --> 00:46:42,761
talking about anxiety, depression. Oh, well, let's bring

1311
00:46:42,761 --> 00:46:44,894
the in the professionals and do the therapy

1312
00:46:44,894 --> 00:46:45,855
thing. When you're in the

1313
00:46:46,575 --> 00:46:48,815
we wanna, like, merge these worlds because there's

1314
00:46:49,055 --> 00:46:51,215
you know, it's the right left brain thing

1315
00:46:51,215 --> 00:46:53,695
happening there too. Right? Where there is some

1316
00:46:53,695 --> 00:46:55,855
good science and research and understanding what we

1317
00:46:55,855 --> 00:46:58,070
need to approach. So speaking as a therapist,

1318
00:46:58,210 --> 00:47:00,450
how could you help church leaders better understand,

1319
00:47:00,450 --> 00:47:02,769
like, how do we bring those two worlds

1320
00:47:02,769 --> 00:47:04,869
together, the spiritual but also the therapy?

1321
00:47:05,250 --> 00:47:05,750
Yes.

1322
00:47:06,050 --> 00:47:06,550
Well,

1323
00:47:07,010 --> 00:47:07,570
so the,

1324
00:47:08,369 --> 00:47:10,470
famous therapist, Irving Yalom,

1325
00:47:11,250 --> 00:47:12,150
Jewish guy,

1326
00:47:12,505 --> 00:47:15,704
his kind of main point is after working,

1327
00:47:15,704 --> 00:47:17,864
like, sixty years in the field, he says

1328
00:47:17,864 --> 00:47:19,885
it's the relationship that heals.

1329
00:47:20,264 --> 00:47:22,505
Mhmm. It's the relationship. Now we have the

1330
00:47:22,505 --> 00:47:24,960
neuroscience, and you can look at, like, Dan

1331
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:27,619
Siegel's YouTube videos on this on the neuroscience

1332
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:29,519
of it. But to sit across from another

1333
00:47:29,519 --> 00:47:31,920
human being and look them in the eye

1334
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,260
and have them listen to you with compassion

1335
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:38,340
heals the human brain. Mhmm. It actually heals

1336
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:40,765
the brain. And so when we're offering

1337
00:47:41,065 --> 00:47:43,005
compassionate relational connection,

1338
00:47:43,625 --> 00:47:46,985
we're not rushing to fix people. That's really

1339
00:47:46,985 --> 00:47:48,445
important. People don't like

1340
00:47:48,985 --> 00:47:50,445
feeling like your project.

1341
00:47:50,744 --> 00:47:52,590
You're a disaster. I'm here to fix you.

1342
00:47:52,750 --> 00:47:54,510
Yeah. You are a son or a daughter

1343
00:47:54,510 --> 00:47:56,269
of the living God. I'm here to love

1344
00:47:56,269 --> 00:47:58,590
you and to sit with you. Anybody can

1345
00:47:58,590 --> 00:48:00,670
offer that. And there is a time and

1346
00:48:00,670 --> 00:48:01,809
a place for professionals.

1347
00:48:02,110 --> 00:48:02,930
No question.

1348
00:48:03,390 --> 00:48:06,704
But the beautiful thing is, like, again, this

1349
00:48:06,704 --> 00:48:08,485
is bringing in the experiential

1350
00:48:08,785 --> 00:48:11,744
life with God. This divine and branch. Let's

1351
00:48:11,744 --> 00:48:13,744
come back where we started. It's divine and

1352
00:48:13,744 --> 00:48:14,244
branch.

1353
00:48:14,625 --> 00:48:16,405
The soul is healed

1354
00:48:16,785 --> 00:48:17,684
through union

1355
00:48:17,985 --> 00:48:19,285
with Jesus Christ.

1356
00:48:19,690 --> 00:48:20,670
And that union

1357
00:48:21,530 --> 00:48:22,909
brings down your anxiety.

1358
00:48:23,369 --> 00:48:25,469
That union brings down your anger.

1359
00:48:25,769 --> 00:48:27,309
That union addresses

1360
00:48:28,010 --> 00:48:29,230
childhood wounds.

1361
00:48:29,530 --> 00:48:32,090
That you get that get union with Christ

1362
00:48:32,090 --> 00:48:33,150
into your sexuality.

1363
00:48:33,530 --> 00:48:36,215
I guarantee you, you're gonna get over your

1364
00:48:36,215 --> 00:48:39,574
addictions. Okay? Yeah. So that's the beautiful blending

1365
00:48:39,574 --> 00:48:40,715
of these two worlds.

1366
00:48:41,175 --> 00:48:43,015
Yeah. That's fantastic. And is is there any

1367
00:48:43,255 --> 00:48:44,954
because sometimes as we're referring

1368
00:48:45,335 --> 00:48:47,835
people out to get professional therapy, I mean,

1369
00:48:48,159 --> 00:48:50,000
is there anything to be aware of to

1370
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:51,840
make sure you kinda you have some of

1371
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:52,480
this it's,

1372
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:54,800
can help in this, you know, in that

1373
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,039
spiritual realm? Or I don't know. I would

1374
00:48:57,039 --> 00:48:59,139
ask your therapist what their spirituality

1375
00:48:59,519 --> 00:49:02,394
is. Mhmm. Now there are many, many, many,

1376
00:49:02,394 --> 00:49:03,135
many, many

1377
00:49:03,434 --> 00:49:06,714
excellent secular therapists, and I'm not dismissing them.

1378
00:49:06,714 --> 00:49:08,315
They can do great work. They are doing

1379
00:49:08,315 --> 00:49:10,875
great work. But you want someone who understands

1380
00:49:10,875 --> 00:49:12,094
your spiritual life.

1381
00:49:12,489 --> 00:49:14,570
Yeah. Right? So that that's an important I

1382
00:49:14,570 --> 00:49:16,829
mean, I'd say go get a Christian therapist

1383
00:49:16,890 --> 00:49:17,869
somewhere, please.

1384
00:49:18,250 --> 00:49:21,070
It makes a difference. Somebody that's gonna understand

1385
00:49:21,210 --> 00:49:24,170
what you're where you're coming from. Yeah. Really

1386
00:49:24,170 --> 00:49:24,670
helpful.

1387
00:49:24,994 --> 00:49:26,675
John, this has been great. I just always

1388
00:49:26,675 --> 00:49:29,074
appreciate our conversations and your writings and Yeah.

1389
00:49:29,074 --> 00:49:31,635
Thank you. Even going back, let's see. I've

1390
00:49:31,635 --> 00:49:33,175
I've read, this past year

1391
00:49:33,474 --> 00:49:35,574
Beautiful Outlaw. Right? Oh, yes.

1392
00:49:35,954 --> 00:49:37,235
That was a a good one. So I'm

1393
00:49:37,235 --> 00:49:39,235
slowly kinda going back, making sure I didn't

1394
00:49:39,235 --> 00:49:40,510
miss any of your books there, but there

1395
00:49:40,590 --> 00:49:42,510
there's a lot there, and I encourage people

1396
00:49:42,510 --> 00:49:44,190
to to jump in. Any any place that

1397
00:49:44,190 --> 00:49:46,030
you would send people if they're intrigued by

1398
00:49:46,030 --> 00:49:48,110
this conversation, wanna read the book, wanna get

1399
00:49:48,110 --> 00:49:51,150
into the resources that you offer? Yep. Well,

1400
00:49:51,150 --> 00:49:53,630
Experience Jesus, really, is the new book that's

1401
00:49:53,630 --> 00:49:55,170
out. You can get it on his Amazon.

1402
00:49:55,470 --> 00:49:57,065
If you wanna listen to our podcasts,

1403
00:49:57,525 --> 00:49:59,445
Wild at Heart podcast, you can get it

1404
00:49:59,445 --> 00:50:00,585
where you get your podcasts.

1405
00:50:01,204 --> 00:50:03,525
There's some beautiful free resources on our website.

1406
00:50:03,525 --> 00:50:05,844
There's some beautiful films that you can watch

1407
00:50:05,844 --> 00:50:07,224
for free on our website

1408
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:09,960
for men, for women, for the healing of

1409
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,420
the masculine and feminine soul. That's wild@heart.org.

1410
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:15,719
Yeah. And thanks for your generosity, Kurt. You've

1411
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:17,719
been so generous with your time over the

1412
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:19,579
years and so affirming,

1413
00:50:20,125 --> 00:50:21,805
and I'm really humbled by that. Thank you

1414
00:50:21,805 --> 00:50:24,125
so much. Well, I appreciate, you know, sometimes

1415
00:50:24,125 --> 00:50:26,844
our people get dismissed in in Christian communities,

1416
00:50:26,844 --> 00:50:28,445
so I appreciate you being willing to have

1417
00:50:28,445 --> 00:50:31,244
conversations and sharing your perspectives and things. So

1418
00:50:31,244 --> 00:50:33,429
it means a lot too. Thank you. Can

1419
00:50:33,429 --> 00:50:35,110
we just end maybe would you just pray

1420
00:50:35,110 --> 00:50:36,949
for for us and our people and Yeah.

1421
00:50:37,030 --> 00:50:39,030
And, we'll end there? Yeah. Because what I

1422
00:50:39,030 --> 00:50:40,489
wanna pray is the prayer

1423
00:50:40,789 --> 00:50:43,130
for the listener. And the prayer is,

1424
00:50:43,510 --> 00:50:44,010
Jesus,

1425
00:50:44,390 --> 00:50:46,650
I think I do need a deeper experience

1426
00:50:46,949 --> 00:50:48,795
of you. I think I need a deeper

1427
00:50:48,795 --> 00:50:49,295
life

1428
00:50:50,074 --> 00:50:52,494
with you. And so I'm asking you

1429
00:50:52,795 --> 00:50:55,114
to come to me and to open my

1430
00:50:55,114 --> 00:50:56,974
heart and my right brain.

1431
00:50:57,355 --> 00:50:59,295
Help me be more wholehearted

1432
00:51:00,119 --> 00:51:03,159
in left brain, right brain, heart and soul,

1433
00:51:03,159 --> 00:51:04,219
mind and strength.

1434
00:51:04,679 --> 00:51:06,139
I want to experience

1435
00:51:06,519 --> 00:51:07,659
more of your love

1436
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:09,900
and your presence with me.

1437
00:51:10,199 --> 00:51:11,019
And so

1438
00:51:11,319 --> 00:51:12,460
we ask this,

1439
00:51:13,135 --> 00:51:13,954
Lord Jesus,

1440
00:51:14,894 --> 00:51:15,875
in your name.

1441
00:51:17,215 --> 00:51:17,715
Amen.

1442
00:51:24,894 --> 00:51:26,255
Hey. You made it to the end of

1443
00:51:26,255 --> 00:51:26,914
the episode.

1444
00:51:27,260 --> 00:51:29,019
Wasn't that so good? You know, I tend

1445
00:51:29,019 --> 00:51:30,539
to pinch myself that this is what I

1446
00:51:30,539 --> 00:51:32,219
get to do. I get to sit down

1447
00:51:32,219 --> 00:51:35,599
with some remarkable people across the world, experts,

1448
00:51:35,739 --> 00:51:39,260
everyday leaders, PhDs, therapists, whatever it be, and

1449
00:51:39,260 --> 00:51:41,900
have such an impactful conversation. I hope you'll

1450
00:51:41,900 --> 00:51:43,964
share it. Drop it into text message and

1451
00:51:43,964 --> 00:51:45,724
email and share it to someone who maybe

1452
00:51:45,724 --> 00:51:48,284
came to mind during this episode. And if

1453
00:51:48,284 --> 00:51:49,644
you go to the show notes and scroll

1454
00:51:49,644 --> 00:51:51,244
to the bottom, there's actually a list of

1455
00:51:51,244 --> 00:51:53,724
some of our most popular episodes. So don't

1456
00:51:53,724 --> 00:51:55,405
stop with this episode. I mean, you're not

1457
00:51:55,405 --> 00:51:56,924
done with the dishes or mowing the lawn

1458
00:51:56,924 --> 00:51:58,539
or working out, so you might as well

1459
00:51:58,539 --> 00:52:00,300
keep it going at the bottom of those

1460
00:52:00,300 --> 00:52:02,619
show notes and, make sure you you listen

1461
00:52:02,619 --> 00:52:04,219
to each one, maybe a couple times on

1462
00:52:04,219 --> 00:52:06,859
a few of them. Quick reminder, go watch

1463
00:52:06,859 --> 00:52:10,139
Joseph Grenny's presentation on helping loved ones overcome

1464
00:52:10,139 --> 00:52:13,614
addiction by going to leadingsaints.org/fourteen.

1465
00:52:23,559 --> 00:52:26,119
It came as a result of the position

1466
00:52:26,119 --> 00:52:29,179
of leadership which was imposed upon us

1467
00:52:29,559 --> 00:52:31,579
by the God of heaven who brought

1468
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:35,179
forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus

1469
00:52:35,319 --> 00:52:35,819
Christ.

1470
00:52:36,644 --> 00:52:37,465
When the declaration

1471
00:52:37,925 --> 00:52:41,204
was made concerning the only and only true

1472
00:52:41,204 --> 00:52:43,525
and living church upon the face of the

1473
00:52:43,525 --> 00:52:44,025
earth,

1474
00:52:44,565 --> 00:52:47,364
we were immediately put in a position of

1475
00:52:47,364 --> 00:52:47,864
loneliness,

1476
00:52:48,324 --> 00:52:49,784
the loneliness of leadership

1477
00:52:50,559 --> 00:52:53,460
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,

1478
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:56,719
and to which we must face up with

1479
00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:58,179
boldness and courage

1480
00:52:58,719 --> 00:52:59,539
and ability.