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Have you ever tried to help youth with

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their mental health? That's a tricky road to

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travel. I have to tell you about an

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inspiring presentation we recorded with the one and

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only Jody Moore. Yes. That life coaching Jody

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Moore. A few years ago, she recorded a

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fantastic presentation

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covering topics like normalizing

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tough feelings with youth, a more positive understanding

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of stress, how to minimize shame, and mastering

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the skill set of empathy and better understanding

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anxiety.

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I want you to see this presentation as

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soon as you finish this podcast episode. You

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can go to leadingsaints.org/fourteen,

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and this will get you access to the

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entire video library at no cost for fourteen

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days.

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Jody's presentation is in the Mentally Healthy Saints

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library, and you'll be a better leader or

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parent when you finish it. Again, go to

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leadingsaints.org/14

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or check out the show notes for the

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link.

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Hey. Welcome to the Leading Saints podcast. Now

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for many of you that are brand new,

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to Leading Saints, it's important that you know

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that Leading Saints is a nonprofit organization,

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five zero one c three, dedicated to helping

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Latter day Saints be better prepared to lead,

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and we do that through

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content creation. We get so much positive feedback

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on the podcast, our virtual conferences, the articles

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on our website.

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You definitely gotta check it out at leadingsaints.org.

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And on their homepage at leadingsaints that are,

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you can actually find the top six most

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downloaded episodes to the podcast. So if you're

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new, like the content, want to jump in

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to some of our most popular episodes

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head there after you listened to this.

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We are welcoming back Justin Dyer into the

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studio. Justin's a BYU professor

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of, professor of religion. Now BYU teaches the

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eternal family courses, but also does phenomenal research

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with a fantastic team with Sam Hardy and

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Mike Goodman who we've had on the podcast

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before.

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And and I just love the questions these

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guys ask, the research they dig into because

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they validate the Latter day Saint experience

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to a whole another level. And sometimes you

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wonder, I don't know, like, I I appreciate

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the church and we teach good things, but

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I don't know. Is it damaging to some?

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Do some get overwhelmed by this message and

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maybe we need to water it down a

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little or soften it? But, no, like, this

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the research that they do has been so

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encouraging and, so that's why I'm excited to

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have a conversation today about toxic perfectionism

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because that could be the the assumption, right,

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that that being a Latter day Saint, having

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all these rules, commandments, covenants, doesn't that stimulate

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toxic perfectionism that we're constantly living in a

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place of not being good enough? Now I

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realize my heart goes out to those who

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have lived that, who have had those feelings

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come from some gospel

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behaviors and traditions, and we talk about that,

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Justin and I, as we explore how can

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we offer the gospel to individuals, especially in

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a leadership context that will stimulate good mental

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health, encouragement, hope, grace, all those things. So

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you're gonna love this discussion. So here's my

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interview with Justin Dyer.

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Alright, Justin. You're back with some more research,

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so this is cool. Great to be here.

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Thanks so much for having me. And I

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I so much appreciate the research, you and

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and to Mike Goodman. And who else is

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there? Sam? Sam Hardy as well and Mark

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Ogletree are the ones that have been working

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on the research with me. And now recently,

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you've been talking about the research around perfectionism

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and toxic perfectionism.

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That's right. Where's a good, like, launching off

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point? Like, what explain the the intent of

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that type of research. So the research actually

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started when I was sitting in a meeting,

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and somebody just happened to mention that, well,

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Latter day Saints are really high in toxic

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perfectionism.

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And

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I happened to have my laptop at that

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moment. Then I thought to myself, I've been

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doing research on Latter day Saints and mental

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health for the last eight years or so.

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And

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there actually is no research on that. And

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so we'd been collecting data on

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Latter day Saint youth and youth of other

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religions as well. Got up about 2,000 of

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them. We followed them for eight years.

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And so I decided to open my laptop

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right there and crunch some numbers

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and found that that narrative is inaccurate, that

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Latter day Saints are higher in perfectionism than

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those of other religions. And so, and I'd

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heard that before. And I think many people

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have heard that, that, well, Latter day Saints

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must be really perfectionistic

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in a negative way, you know, be therefore

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perfect. We have all these high standards. So

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we must have all of this angst over

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these things more so than other people.

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And so it was really just

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by conversations and what I've heard that I

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decided, oh, we actually need to look at

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these data. We've been collecting them for many

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years, but we hadn't actually crunched the numbers

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on that. Yeah. And off you went with

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and then so what what type of questions

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are you trying to ask? Or how do

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you get at the core of that? Because

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I'd like you said, that's the the assumption

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that people think, well, yeah, of course, you

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know, there's some toxic perfection. It's because we

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have so much focus on it. Right? So

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where how do you start to formulate those

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questions? Yeah. So what we do is we

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have these standardized measures of toxic perfectionism.

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Actually, researchers have been looking at this for

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a long time. And so what we did

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is we just included those questions in our

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overall survey that we've been asking people for

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a number of years. And so we can

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see different types of toxic perfectionism.

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There's what's called discrepancy, which I feel like

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I'm not meeting these standards and that causes

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me feelings of shame and those kinds of

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things. And then there's what's called

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social perfectionism,

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which is where I feel like I have

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to be perfect for other people. Otherwise,

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I'm not lovable.

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And my value comes from being perfect. That's

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really what toxic perfectionism

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is about. And so we ask these standardized

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questions

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to these kids over the years. And then

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what we're able to do is say, alright,

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how do Latter day Saints differ in their

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toxic perfectionism

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from those of other religions or those of

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no religion?

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And it's important to recognize what toxic perfectionism

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is. Again, it's not necessarily about having high

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standards. That's a really good thing. It's not

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necessarily about not meeting those standards because that's

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a daily occurrence for human beings is to

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not meet, you know, what we'd hoped to

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meet. It's how we feel about ourselves when

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we do when we don't meet our standards,

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when we make mistakes. Do we feel like

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that we're no longer of worth, that we're

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no longer valued, that we're no longer lovable

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if we don't meet those standards?

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And so that's kind of the

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outline of how we went about that

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and how we measure toxic perfectionism.

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Yeah. And I just my mind goes to,

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like, obviously, with perfectionism, it's usually tied to

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behaviors.

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Right? And in a religious tradition, there's often

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behaviors mentioned. Right? As far over sin that's

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mentioned, that's sort of negative behaviors that we

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wanna stay away from. And so that toxic

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nature, I guess some people can interpret it

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like, it's toxic if it's kinda makes you

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uncomfortable or or hurts. When in reality, it's

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like, well, it's good to sort of be

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uncomfortable at times or be like, oh, that's

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a high standard. I don't know if I

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can do it, you know, and and to

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reach for that. But then I I appreciate

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the concept of toxic because something's toxic. It's

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like it will perpetually get you more and

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more sick or worse and worse. Right? Where

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just because something's hard doesn't necessarily mean it's

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toxic. Is that fair to say? That's exactly

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right. So, yes, there are some standards that

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are difficult. You know, you have that youth

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that goes to the party and everybody else

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is drinking. And, oh my goodness, I would

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feel ashamed if I didn't drink and it

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would feel bad and all that. And so

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they have this conflict and they think to

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themselves,

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well, it would just be so much easier

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Mhmm. If I could drink.

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When in fact, we find and well, number

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one, it would be illegal for them to

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do that. Right. And we find that,

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drinking does relate to more mental health problems.

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Mhmm. And that's not a

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theological statement. That's a very well researched statement.

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In fact, now the surgeon general is wants

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to put on all alcohol

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a notice that it could cause cancer. It's

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now a known cause of cancer and we're

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aware of that now. And so, yes, there's

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this discomfort but

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sometimes

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because we have these standards, yes, it's uncomfortable

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but guess what? Those are actually

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better for us. It's better for us to

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keep those standards

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than to

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not keep those standards. Yeah. Sometimes I say,

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you know, for me, it would be a

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good standard to do 50 push ups. I

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can't do 50 push ups, but that would

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be a good goal for me to have.

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If I said, okay, that's a good goal.

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So I'm going to get down right here,

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right now and do 50 push ups. I'm

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not going to make it. And I could

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get up and I could say, oh, I'm

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such a terrible person. Oh, you know, that

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guy on TV can do 50 pushups. I'm

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not as good as him. Well, that's a

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good goal. I'm going to do it again.

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And so I get down. I tried to

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50 pushups. I'm going to do fewer pushups

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the second time than I did the first

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time. If I get up, oh, no, that's

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I'm so terrible and all that. And it's

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a good goal. I'm going to keep doing

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it. I get down and try it again.

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I'm going to do fewer pushups the third

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time. And so healthy perfectionism

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is about making really good high standards,

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but recognizing that we are going to make

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mistakes along the way, that we're not going

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to be perfect at it, and then we

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can adjust

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as needed that, oh, that standard of 50

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pushups, that's a long term goal. What are

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kind of the short term goals in the

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middle that I can

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make so that I can get there? And

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then if I don't make it, I don't

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feel like I'm worthless. Yeah. I hold my

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head high and I move forward in order

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to try and achieve that goal eventually. Yeah.

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So it sounds like

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bad or toxic perfectionism

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has a negative impact on our identity or

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how we see or interpret ourselves as a

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person or a being. Is that fair? You

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just said that perfectly.

263
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It actually does do that. Right? We start

264
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to view ourselves, ourselves, you know, who I

265
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am as negative and bad.

266
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Right? If we sin,

267
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then we can say, Absolutely. Yeah. What I

268
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did was bad. And that's actually a good

269
00:10:03,955 --> 00:10:06,915
thing. It's healthy. It's really mentally healthy for

270
00:10:06,915 --> 00:10:08,835
us to acknowledge when we do wrong things.

271
00:10:08,835 --> 00:10:10,434
Yeah. That's a good thing for us. It's

272
00:10:10,434 --> 00:10:12,514
actually a big problem when people don't acknowledge

273
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when they make mistakes.

274
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It's very healthy when we do that. So

275
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healthy to recognize I did

276
00:10:18,649 --> 00:10:19,629
a wrong thing.

277
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Unhealthy to say, therefore,

278
00:10:22,089 --> 00:10:24,570
God doesn't love me. Other people can't love

279
00:10:24,570 --> 00:10:26,570
me. I shouldn't love me. Mhmm. And it's

280
00:10:26,570 --> 00:10:28,029
when we go to that location,

281
00:10:28,409 --> 00:10:30,169
other people shouldn't love me. God won't love

282
00:10:30,169 --> 00:10:32,285
me. That's when we get into the toxic

283
00:10:32,345 --> 00:10:34,184
area. Yeah. And so it's this tough balance

284
00:10:34,184 --> 00:10:35,004
of time because

285
00:10:35,384 --> 00:10:37,644
oftentimes in my own life, I

286
00:10:38,105 --> 00:10:40,264
interpret things different than maybe somebody else does.

287
00:10:40,264 --> 00:10:41,785
Right? Alright. And that you see this in

288
00:10:41,785 --> 00:10:43,225
in youth, and I wanna get there with

289
00:10:43,225 --> 00:10:45,550
youth, you know, generally. But, you know, they

290
00:10:45,550 --> 00:10:47,230
may interpret a bad day of, like, what's

291
00:10:47,230 --> 00:10:48,509
wrong with me? I can't get right where

292
00:10:48,509 --> 00:10:50,509
I'm kinda may maybe matured to a place

293
00:10:50,509 --> 00:10:51,950
of being like, you know, just some days

294
00:10:51,950 --> 00:10:54,110
are tough, and there's always tomorrow type of

295
00:10:54,110 --> 00:10:57,230
thing. Right? And so sometimes you just because

296
00:10:57,230 --> 00:10:59,330
it you can shift to the healthy

297
00:10:59,804 --> 00:11:00,304
perfectionism,

298
00:11:00,924 --> 00:11:02,225
there are the healthy striving.

299
00:11:02,524 --> 00:11:04,365
Others can't. So you just have to be

300
00:11:04,365 --> 00:11:06,605
aware of that. Right? Oh, absolutely. We all

301
00:11:06,605 --> 00:11:08,924
are probably at some degree to some point

302
00:11:08,924 --> 00:11:10,764
in our lives, a bit of a toxic

303
00:11:10,764 --> 00:11:13,004
perfectionist. Mhmm. Right? Some people have it to

304
00:11:13,004 --> 00:11:15,669
a greater degree than others. And so, yeah,

305
00:11:15,669 --> 00:11:17,750
when we're working with youth, when we're working

306
00:11:17,750 --> 00:11:20,389
with other individuals, we do have to realize

307
00:11:20,389 --> 00:11:22,950
that just because I'm interpreting something a particular

308
00:11:22,950 --> 00:11:25,429
way doesn't mean that everybody's interpreting it that

309
00:11:25,429 --> 00:11:27,764
same way. Yeah. So, I mean, what about

310
00:11:27,764 --> 00:11:28,904
just the word perfectionism

311
00:11:29,365 --> 00:11:32,085
in general? Like, obviously, be there for perfect.

312
00:11:32,085 --> 00:11:34,965
Right? And, I mean, the biblical scholars can

313
00:11:34,965 --> 00:11:37,125
take you down all sorts of wormholes with

314
00:11:37,125 --> 00:11:38,965
just that word. What's it mean? The translation.

315
00:11:38,965 --> 00:11:41,009
And, you know, I think of, elder Holland's

316
00:11:41,009 --> 00:11:43,809
talk of be therefore perfect eventually. Right? And

317
00:11:43,809 --> 00:11:45,889
so sometimes the interpretation of these things and

318
00:11:45,889 --> 00:11:48,070
I don't think, you know, generally,

319
00:11:48,610 --> 00:11:50,529
I don't think Christ was saying be therefore

320
00:11:50,529 --> 00:11:53,090
perfect or man, am I disappointed in you

321
00:11:53,090 --> 00:11:53,830
or, like,

322
00:11:54,795 --> 00:11:57,115
like, there's a a deeper dynamic going on.

323
00:11:57,115 --> 00:11:59,774
Right? So I think some people just avoid

324
00:11:59,915 --> 00:12:03,355
the concept of perfectionism in general, but in

325
00:12:03,355 --> 00:12:05,115
religious context, some of the times you can't

326
00:12:05,115 --> 00:12:07,339
get away from it. Right? Yeah. Absolutely.

327
00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:09,659
I think we really do have this

328
00:12:10,039 --> 00:12:12,759
conflicted relationship with that because we know that

329
00:12:12,759 --> 00:12:14,120
we should strive for good things and we

330
00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:16,059
know that we should have high standards.

331
00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:17,179
And yet,

332
00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:19,725
we have this sense that, well, if we

333
00:12:19,725 --> 00:12:22,125
have these high standards and isn't that bad,

334
00:12:22,125 --> 00:12:24,144
and aren't we gonna make people feel bad?

335
00:12:24,205 --> 00:12:26,144
Right? And so we're kind of conflicted about

336
00:12:26,365 --> 00:12:28,384
whether or not we should hold on to

337
00:12:28,445 --> 00:12:31,485
perfection or as an ideal, or whether or

338
00:12:31,485 --> 00:12:33,485
not we should hold to these standards as

339
00:12:33,485 --> 00:12:33,985
ideals.

340
00:12:34,790 --> 00:12:37,269
But when we're able to separate out the

341
00:12:37,269 --> 00:12:37,769
standard

342
00:12:38,470 --> 00:12:40,809
from our own self worth, from our identity,

343
00:12:41,190 --> 00:12:42,950
if we can say to ourselves, as President

344
00:12:42,950 --> 00:12:44,950
Nelson has taught us, that we are children

345
00:12:44,950 --> 00:12:46,710
of God, child of the covenant, disciple of

346
00:12:46,710 --> 00:12:48,070
Christ. If we can hold on to those

347
00:12:48,070 --> 00:12:48,570
things

348
00:12:49,065 --> 00:12:50,924
as identities, then

349
00:12:52,105 --> 00:12:54,585
we can strive for good things while at

350
00:12:54,585 --> 00:12:55,884
the same time thinking,

351
00:12:56,264 --> 00:12:58,044
I am still loved infinitely.

352
00:12:58,504 --> 00:12:59,865
And so we can do both of those

353
00:12:59,865 --> 00:13:01,565
at the same time. We can hold perfection

354
00:13:01,959 --> 00:13:03,879
as an ideal while at the same time

355
00:13:03,879 --> 00:13:04,379
holding

356
00:13:04,759 --> 00:13:07,480
within ourselves, I am loved infinitely. And there's

357
00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:09,480
there's nothing that's gonna take me outside the

358
00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:13,080
bounds of Christ's love and his help. Yeah.

359
00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:14,600
I don't know exactly where this will take

360
00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:16,440
us, but I'm I'm just thinking of the

361
00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:16,940
typical

362
00:13:17,754 --> 00:13:19,934
scenario that maybe a church leader experiences

363
00:13:20,634 --> 00:13:22,475
where, you know, we've been to many of

364
00:13:22,475 --> 00:13:25,115
those state conferences or, you know, the bishop

365
00:13:25,115 --> 00:13:27,195
speaks in sacrament or even speaking to youth

366
00:13:27,195 --> 00:13:29,434
where there's this feeling of, like, you know,

367
00:13:29,434 --> 00:13:31,589
you all are great people, but you could

368
00:13:31,589 --> 00:13:33,909
be doing a little bit more. I mean,

369
00:13:33,909 --> 00:13:36,709
I've seen the temple attendance numbers and yeah.

370
00:13:36,709 --> 00:13:38,230
It's come on. You know, you're sort of

371
00:13:38,230 --> 00:13:39,829
this feeling of rallying the troops. And so

372
00:13:39,829 --> 00:13:42,230
then leaders get this perception of feeling of,

373
00:13:42,230 --> 00:13:44,470
like, I think I'm just always supposed to,

374
00:13:44,470 --> 00:13:46,904
like, once they maybe touch the standard, I

375
00:13:46,904 --> 00:13:48,345
gotta lift it a little bit more because

376
00:13:48,345 --> 00:13:51,404
we're reaching for perfection. But then that

377
00:13:51,865 --> 00:13:55,245
experience just becomes like, oh, like, I can't

378
00:13:55,464 --> 00:13:56,904
I can't do it. I can't listen to

379
00:13:56,904 --> 00:13:58,919
one more talk about I'm not doing enough

380
00:13:59,079 --> 00:14:01,240
when I'm just trying to survive most days.

381
00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:02,919
Right? What what comes to mind with with

382
00:14:02,919 --> 00:14:03,419
that?

383
00:14:03,799 --> 00:14:04,459
Yeah. That's,

384
00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:06,940
we are so good.

385
00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:09,720
Many of us are just so good at

386
00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:10,620
saying anything

387
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:12,139
my leader says

388
00:14:12,674 --> 00:14:14,914
that is about improvement or anything like that

389
00:14:15,875 --> 00:14:17,735
applies directly to

390
00:14:18,195 --> 00:14:20,995
me. Right? Leaders are speaking to people in

391
00:14:20,995 --> 00:14:22,215
lots of different circumstances.

392
00:14:22,995 --> 00:14:23,894
And sometimes

393
00:14:24,355 --> 00:14:25,014
when we

394
00:14:25,529 --> 00:14:27,929
hear a leader and there are certainly sometimes

395
00:14:28,009 --> 00:14:29,769
and I know I've I've had this at

396
00:14:29,769 --> 00:14:31,850
times, perhaps as a missionary, maybe many people

397
00:14:31,850 --> 00:14:33,769
can relate to this as a missionary. Yeah.

398
00:14:33,769 --> 00:14:35,209
This is these are good examples. You are

399
00:14:35,209 --> 00:14:36,570
you are 100%

400
00:14:36,570 --> 00:14:38,829
obedient, like, and you're you're moving along.

401
00:14:39,284 --> 00:14:39,784
And

402
00:14:40,164 --> 00:14:41,845
then the mission president says we need to

403
00:14:41,845 --> 00:14:44,985
do better. And honestly, he's really not talking

404
00:14:45,204 --> 00:14:47,865
to you. Right. He's talking to the other

405
00:14:48,325 --> 00:14:50,424
elders or sisters who

406
00:14:51,044 --> 00:14:51,544
are

407
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:53,779
perhaps not quite in the patterns,

408
00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:56,879
if you will, of missionary service. And so

409
00:14:56,879 --> 00:14:58,100
it does take some maturity

410
00:14:58,639 --> 00:15:01,059
for us to take what a leader says

411
00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:02,179
and then

412
00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:04,100
apply it in our own situation

413
00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:06,420
and to examine ourselves with the Lord.

414
00:15:06,825 --> 00:15:08,785
Right? Am I doing all that I need

415
00:15:08,785 --> 00:15:10,445
to be doing in this area?

416
00:15:10,825 --> 00:15:12,745
And we can say to ourselves, leader, thank

417
00:15:12,745 --> 00:15:14,585
you so much for bringing that up. I

418
00:15:14,585 --> 00:15:16,425
really appreciate it. It was a point for

419
00:15:16,425 --> 00:15:17,565
me to self examine.

420
00:15:17,945 --> 00:15:20,184
And you know what? I feel like between

421
00:15:20,184 --> 00:15:22,289
me and the Lord, we're doing great in

422
00:15:22,289 --> 00:15:24,370
that particular area. Yeah. So we can take

423
00:15:24,370 --> 00:15:25,750
some ownership for it.

424
00:15:26,129 --> 00:15:27,589
For the advice

425
00:15:27,889 --> 00:15:29,429
and the counsel given

426
00:15:29,970 --> 00:15:32,049
by our leaders. And of course, you know,

427
00:15:32,049 --> 00:15:34,049
if they say there are those times when

428
00:15:34,049 --> 00:15:35,570
we say, you know what? I'm actually not

429
00:15:35,570 --> 00:15:37,664
doing that as well and I need to

430
00:15:37,664 --> 00:15:40,144
adjust what I'm doing. And so we need

431
00:15:40,144 --> 00:15:43,345
to be, if you will, spiritually mature enough

432
00:15:43,345 --> 00:15:45,585
to take what the leaders say and take

433
00:15:45,585 --> 00:15:46,245
it seriously

434
00:15:46,865 --> 00:15:49,105
and evaluate to what degree do I need

435
00:15:49,105 --> 00:15:51,879
to change something in my life. Yep. Yeah.

436
00:15:51,879 --> 00:15:53,320
And on the you know, like and this

437
00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,079
is the like, from the leader standpoint as

438
00:15:55,079 --> 00:15:57,320
leaders are listening. I think the paradox is

439
00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:59,320
that, you know, I I always go back

440
00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:01,879
to Carl Rogers, American psychologist, who said, you

441
00:16:01,879 --> 00:16:03,480
know, the curious paradox is that when I

442
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:05,799
accept myself just as I am, then I

443
00:16:05,799 --> 00:16:08,544
can change. Right? And that dynamic is happening

444
00:16:08,544 --> 00:16:10,644
when when you help the people feel

445
00:16:11,024 --> 00:16:13,105
they're accepted just as they are. It's this

446
00:16:13,105 --> 00:16:15,504
weird thing happens. They wanna do more. They

447
00:16:15,504 --> 00:16:17,424
wanna be better. They wanna lean into the

448
00:16:17,424 --> 00:16:19,949
gospel. Right? And so I'm just thinking, like,

449
00:16:19,949 --> 00:16:22,110
the more we can offer redemption in the

450
00:16:22,110 --> 00:16:24,269
context of a state conference of, you know,

451
00:16:24,269 --> 00:16:26,589
let isn't it beautiful that Christ's, like, what

452
00:16:26,589 --> 00:16:27,949
he did for us? Not so much of

453
00:16:27,949 --> 00:16:30,029
what you didn't do this past week. Right?

454
00:16:30,029 --> 00:16:33,254
Anyways, I I I'm kind of veering off

455
00:16:33,495 --> 00:16:35,095
the focus here. But going back to the

456
00:16:35,095 --> 00:16:37,654
data Mhmm. That so the data, as far

457
00:16:37,654 --> 00:16:39,414
as you can tell, is telling us that

458
00:16:39,414 --> 00:16:43,035
there's nothing about our religious experience is stimulating

459
00:16:43,095 --> 00:16:45,335
more toxic perfectionism. Is that a fair way

460
00:16:45,335 --> 00:16:47,589
to frame it? So toxic perfectionism

461
00:16:47,970 --> 00:16:50,230
seems to be a natural human tendency

462
00:16:50,769 --> 00:16:53,009
that would exist whether they're religious or non

463
00:16:53,009 --> 00:16:53,990
religious. So

464
00:16:54,850 --> 00:16:56,929
what we found is that twelve percent of

465
00:16:56,929 --> 00:16:58,690
Latter day Saint youth were high in toxic

466
00:16:58,690 --> 00:17:01,514
perfectionism, which isn't a good number, right? We

467
00:17:01,514 --> 00:17:02,954
need to look at that and say, okay,

468
00:17:02,954 --> 00:17:04,875
what can we do better? The same time,

469
00:17:04,875 --> 00:17:07,674
atheists and agnostics, twenty percent of them were

470
00:17:07,674 --> 00:17:08,894
high in toxic perfectionism.

471
00:17:09,674 --> 00:17:10,414
And so

472
00:17:11,034 --> 00:17:12,894
because it's a natural human tendency

473
00:17:13,549 --> 00:17:16,269
to be toxic perfectionist, there might be, if

474
00:17:16,269 --> 00:17:16,929
you will,

475
00:17:17,470 --> 00:17:20,910
messages that some youth or adult receives in

476
00:17:20,910 --> 00:17:22,529
church that may indicate,

477
00:17:22,990 --> 00:17:25,710
you know, you really aren't of worth if

478
00:17:25,710 --> 00:17:28,765
you are not perfect. Mhmm. But the thing

479
00:17:28,765 --> 00:17:30,224
is, is that those messages

480
00:17:30,924 --> 00:17:33,484
exist in all of society. Right. It's a

481
00:17:33,484 --> 00:17:36,445
human tendency to feel toxic perfectionism, but it's

482
00:17:36,445 --> 00:17:37,585
also a human tendency

483
00:17:37,884 --> 00:17:40,384
to indicate that somebody is not as good

484
00:17:40,845 --> 00:17:42,144
or not very worthwhile

485
00:17:42,859 --> 00:17:44,859
if they are not perfect or make mistakes

486
00:17:44,859 --> 00:17:46,539
or any of those things. Right? You just

487
00:17:46,539 --> 00:17:48,380
think of social media, all the images that

488
00:17:48,380 --> 00:17:50,880
you receive about all these people are

489
00:17:51,259 --> 00:17:54,160
are doing so well. It is very profitable

490
00:17:54,619 --> 00:17:55,840
for companies

491
00:17:56,815 --> 00:17:58,515
to make you feel bad about yourself

492
00:17:58,974 --> 00:18:00,894
if you do not have their product, if

493
00:18:00,894 --> 00:18:03,375
you don't subscribe to whatever it is. And

494
00:18:03,375 --> 00:18:06,035
so they are really, really good at that

495
00:18:06,174 --> 00:18:09,215
and therefore that's probably why you see outside

496
00:18:09,215 --> 00:18:12,115
of religion higher levels of toxic perfectionism

497
00:18:12,679 --> 00:18:15,559
because at least within religion, particularly the Church

498
00:18:15,559 --> 00:18:17,240
of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, we

499
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,079
are taught that we are children of God,

500
00:18:19,079 --> 00:18:20,539
that you are loved infinitely.

501
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:22,759
There's nothing you can do to take yourself

502
00:18:22,759 --> 00:18:24,460
outside the circle of God's love.

503
00:18:24,845 --> 00:18:26,305
That you are infinite

504
00:18:26,684 --> 00:18:29,484
value and so within religion you can bypass

505
00:18:29,484 --> 00:18:29,984
that.

506
00:18:30,605 --> 00:18:33,085
It's not just about the worldly things that

507
00:18:33,085 --> 00:18:35,005
no matter what happens to me, no matter

508
00:18:35,005 --> 00:18:37,164
what the circumstances that occur in my life

509
00:18:37,164 --> 00:18:39,269
or what mistakes I made, I can go

510
00:18:39,269 --> 00:18:41,910
to church and guess what? 99

511
00:18:41,910 --> 00:18:44,710
times out of a hundred, I'm told God

512
00:18:44,710 --> 00:18:46,789
loves you no matter what. Yeah. I'm told

513
00:18:46,789 --> 00:18:48,330
that if you make mistakes,

514
00:18:48,710 --> 00:18:50,710
those sins though they be a scarlet can

515
00:18:50,710 --> 00:18:52,170
be made white as

516
00:18:52,470 --> 00:18:54,570
wool, snow, all those things

517
00:18:54,924 --> 00:18:57,244
that you don't just have this life. If

518
00:18:57,244 --> 00:18:58,924
I messed up my youth or my young

519
00:18:58,924 --> 00:18:59,424
adulthood,

520
00:19:00,045 --> 00:19:02,045
well, guess what? You have a chance to

521
00:19:02,045 --> 00:19:04,224
change and there's a life after this

522
00:19:04,605 --> 00:19:06,545
that you can have infinite

523
00:19:07,325 --> 00:19:07,825
possibilities

524
00:19:08,285 --> 00:19:10,559
ahead of you and joy. For For somebody

525
00:19:10,559 --> 00:19:11,919
who doesn't believe that, boy, if I mess

526
00:19:11,919 --> 00:19:13,940
up this life, that's kind of it. Yeah.

527
00:19:14,159 --> 00:19:15,919
And so there's even more of a sense

528
00:19:15,919 --> 00:19:16,419
that

529
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:18,339
if I don't do well,

530
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:20,419
boy, this wasn't worthwhile

531
00:19:21,599 --> 00:19:22,099
versus,

532
00:19:22,444 --> 00:19:23,964
hey, if I don't do well, I can

533
00:19:23,964 --> 00:19:26,444
change, I can repent. I'm always loved and

534
00:19:26,444 --> 00:19:27,825
there's an infinite beauty

535
00:19:28,125 --> 00:19:30,384
ahead of me. So certainly there are

536
00:19:30,845 --> 00:19:33,724
tendencies of religious people because we are people,

537
00:19:33,724 --> 00:19:34,785
we're human beings

538
00:19:35,779 --> 00:19:38,259
that say a kid in Sunday school or

539
00:19:38,259 --> 00:19:40,359
seminary might feel the message

540
00:19:41,059 --> 00:19:42,440
that, Oh, I'm not worthwhile.

541
00:19:42,980 --> 00:19:44,759
But that is anti gospel,

542
00:19:45,140 --> 00:19:47,460
right? That is pro consumerism if you will,

543
00:19:47,460 --> 00:19:49,380
because that's what the consumerism culture wants you

544
00:19:49,380 --> 00:19:49,960
to believe.

545
00:19:50,554 --> 00:19:52,095
But that's anti gospel.

546
00:19:52,394 --> 00:19:54,954
And so within the gospel of Jesus Christ,

547
00:19:54,954 --> 00:19:57,194
we get the messages that can help us

548
00:19:57,194 --> 00:19:59,115
avoid it. We still have issues with it

549
00:19:59,115 --> 00:20:00,875
in the gospel, but that's more because of

550
00:20:00,875 --> 00:20:02,015
the natural man

551
00:20:02,394 --> 00:20:04,714
and other worldly emphasis, not because of the

552
00:20:04,714 --> 00:20:06,460
pure doctrine of Jesus Christ. Yeah. And I

553
00:20:06,460 --> 00:20:08,559
really wanna underscore that. That's a really helpful

554
00:20:08,860 --> 00:20:10,880
framing that it's mortality

555
00:20:11,420 --> 00:20:13,980
that stimulates the toxic perfectionism where you, you

556
00:20:13,980 --> 00:20:15,340
know, in a religious frame, you can say

557
00:20:15,340 --> 00:20:16,160
it's the adversary

558
00:20:16,620 --> 00:20:18,320
that does that even to the atheist

559
00:20:18,694 --> 00:20:20,934
when he gets on social media and he

560
00:20:20,934 --> 00:20:23,015
sees someone that has something more than he

561
00:20:23,015 --> 00:20:25,095
does, and when he gets that, there's always

562
00:20:25,095 --> 00:20:26,934
gonna be somebody else who has something more.

563
00:20:26,934 --> 00:20:29,575
Right? And that dynamic can plays into it

564
00:20:29,575 --> 00:20:30,954
where if that same individual

565
00:20:31,369 --> 00:20:33,150
had a place he could go every

566
00:20:33,450 --> 00:20:35,289
seven days or so or a community he

567
00:20:35,289 --> 00:20:37,450
was in reminding him, no. No. You gotta

568
00:20:37,450 --> 00:20:39,529
remember. You are a child of god of

569
00:20:39,529 --> 00:20:40,029
infinite

570
00:20:40,570 --> 00:20:42,570
worth. Like, that sort of that can reset

571
00:20:42,570 --> 00:20:44,445
the system to then face mortality

572
00:20:44,904 --> 00:20:46,924
again and again. Right? Oh, absolutely.

573
00:20:47,384 --> 00:20:49,005
You see an image of somebody

574
00:20:49,785 --> 00:20:50,285
online

575
00:20:50,825 --> 00:20:52,605
and they have this perfect body

576
00:20:52,985 --> 00:20:53,485
and,

577
00:20:54,025 --> 00:20:55,565
you know, for the religious individual,

578
00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:56,900
Oh boy,

579
00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,359
I guess I'm not worth something because I

580
00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:01,279
don't have that body. Oh wait, but my

581
00:21:01,279 --> 00:21:03,380
body is a temple of the spirit.

582
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,160
And oh, I'm still of infinite worth even

583
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,180
though I don't have that. Right? We have

584
00:21:08,515 --> 00:21:09,335
a way

585
00:21:09,714 --> 00:21:10,535
to frame

586
00:21:11,075 --> 00:21:12,214
ourselves, our identity

587
00:21:13,154 --> 00:21:15,095
that is not tied to,

588
00:21:15,714 --> 00:21:16,934
if you will, the world

589
00:21:17,634 --> 00:21:19,015
and material possessions

590
00:21:19,474 --> 00:21:21,974
and success in a worldly sense

591
00:21:22,369 --> 00:21:24,130
or even in a spiritual sense. Right? Even

592
00:21:24,130 --> 00:21:25,809
if somebody I see them as more righteous

593
00:21:25,809 --> 00:21:27,650
than me, guess what? They're not more loved

594
00:21:27,650 --> 00:21:30,609
by God than me. And, they're not more

595
00:21:30,769 --> 00:21:32,369
God doesn't care about them more than he

596
00:21:32,369 --> 00:21:34,769
cares about me. And so we have all

597
00:21:34,769 --> 00:21:36,369
the hope in the universe to move forward

598
00:21:36,369 --> 00:21:38,105
even if we don't even if we make

599
00:21:38,105 --> 00:21:38,605
mistakes

600
00:21:39,144 --> 00:21:41,625
or, don't have what others have. Yeah. And,

601
00:21:41,625 --> 00:21:43,384
Esa, this is why I love interviewing you

602
00:21:43,384 --> 00:21:45,465
and some of your research partners of because

603
00:21:45,465 --> 00:21:47,465
I want leaders to feel like they can

604
00:21:47,465 --> 00:21:49,565
lean in and have permission

605
00:21:49,865 --> 00:21:53,609
of proposing the gospel lifestyle saying this is

606
00:21:53,609 --> 00:21:57,470
a valid lifestyle that promotes very healthy experiences

607
00:21:57,529 --> 00:21:59,369
and mental health dynamics and all those things.

608
00:21:59,369 --> 00:22:02,250
Right? And, of course, we're not saying we're

609
00:22:02,250 --> 00:22:05,595
perfect at fighting toxic perfectionism. Right? Like, sure.

610
00:22:05,595 --> 00:22:06,875
We could go through and be like, well,

611
00:22:06,875 --> 00:22:08,954
you know, what about the temple recommend thing?

612
00:22:08,954 --> 00:22:10,234
Like, is that the best way to do

613
00:22:10,234 --> 00:22:10,974
it? Like, well,

614
00:22:11,275 --> 00:22:12,875
maybe there's a better way, but we're just

615
00:22:12,875 --> 00:22:14,174
doing our best to saying

616
00:22:14,554 --> 00:22:17,214
we need some level of standard to gauge

617
00:22:17,609 --> 00:22:19,930
whether people are ready for that next step

618
00:22:19,930 --> 00:22:22,009
of covenants or renewing those covenants type of

619
00:22:22,009 --> 00:22:24,089
thing. Right? So I don't say the system

620
00:22:24,089 --> 00:22:24,589
is

621
00:22:24,890 --> 00:22:28,809
perfect to every, you know, detail. However, generally

622
00:22:28,809 --> 00:22:29,309
speaking,

623
00:22:29,944 --> 00:22:31,724
the gospel of Jesus Christ

624
00:22:32,025 --> 00:22:33,565
is a beautiful framework

625
00:22:34,105 --> 00:22:36,505
that I highly recommend that every leader should

626
00:22:36,505 --> 00:22:39,325
feel like you can recommend this with passion

627
00:22:39,785 --> 00:22:42,345
and yeah. With that passion of saying, no,

628
00:22:42,345 --> 00:22:44,640
this is valid. Lean into this. Right? That's

629
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:45,700
exactly right.

630
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:47,539
The standards of the gospel

631
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:49,539
are beautiful and fantastic.

632
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:51,140
And it's actually,

633
00:22:51,519 --> 00:22:53,140
you know, I have benefited

634
00:22:53,599 --> 00:22:55,920
from those throughout my life, but I don't

635
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,160
think I realized how much I benefited throughout

636
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,474
my life until I started doing this research

637
00:23:00,615 --> 00:23:02,855
and looking at these various standards and religious

638
00:23:02,855 --> 00:23:03,674
people and

639
00:23:03,974 --> 00:23:06,774
finding that they actually do better in their

640
00:23:06,774 --> 00:23:08,934
mental health and family life and in all

641
00:23:08,934 --> 00:23:09,755
these ways.

642
00:23:10,134 --> 00:23:12,554
And it's those standards that are helping us.

643
00:23:13,109 --> 00:23:15,509
Now, are there instances where there's, you know,

644
00:23:15,509 --> 00:23:17,210
one out of ten of our youth

645
00:23:17,509 --> 00:23:19,049
who have high toxic perfectionism

646
00:23:19,670 --> 00:23:22,250
and maybe sometimes when we indicate these things,

647
00:23:22,309 --> 00:23:25,029
they are putting themselves down and that's creating

648
00:23:25,029 --> 00:23:26,329
problems? Yes, absolutely.

649
00:23:26,704 --> 00:23:28,224
Which is why we need to be dialed

650
00:23:28,224 --> 00:23:29,365
into the individual,

651
00:23:29,825 --> 00:23:32,325
which is why it's wonderful that you have

652
00:23:32,785 --> 00:23:34,005
youth that have

653
00:23:34,545 --> 00:23:37,444
their adult youth presidencies, the young women

654
00:23:38,305 --> 00:23:38,805
presidencies.

655
00:23:39,424 --> 00:23:41,809
You have four women there and the bishopric

656
00:23:42,029 --> 00:23:44,349
and they're all dialed into these youth at

657
00:23:44,349 --> 00:23:46,109
a close level that we can try to

658
00:23:46,109 --> 00:23:47,649
monitor. Okay, how are they

659
00:23:48,029 --> 00:23:49,169
receiving these messages?

660
00:23:49,789 --> 00:23:51,169
Let's teach the standards

661
00:23:51,549 --> 00:23:54,109
that will bless them so much in their

662
00:23:54,109 --> 00:23:54,609
lives.

663
00:23:54,984 --> 00:23:57,085
Their life here and in eternal life,

664
00:23:57,464 --> 00:23:59,384
we are going off the rails unfortunately in

665
00:23:59,384 --> 00:24:02,744
society in terms of mental health problems, deaths

666
00:24:02,744 --> 00:24:04,204
of despair like suicide.

667
00:24:04,904 --> 00:24:06,664
And part of it is because we're losing

668
00:24:06,664 --> 00:24:07,164
religion.

669
00:24:07,464 --> 00:24:10,044
And the wonderful blessing that religion provides

670
00:24:10,529 --> 00:24:12,930
for us in our lives. Please teach that.

671
00:24:12,930 --> 00:24:15,430
It's such a blessing. You're literally saving lives

672
00:24:15,809 --> 00:24:18,049
from doing that, but also be aware that,

673
00:24:18,049 --> 00:24:19,730
alright, there might be people who are interpreting

674
00:24:19,730 --> 00:24:20,470
these messages

675
00:24:20,930 --> 00:24:23,650
who have experienced this toxic perfectionism, so just

676
00:24:23,650 --> 00:24:25,434
be aware of that. Yeah. And dial in

677
00:24:25,434 --> 00:24:26,634
with each one of them to make sure

678
00:24:26,634 --> 00:24:27,994
that they know that they're loved no matter

679
00:24:27,994 --> 00:24:30,235
what and that these standards are there to

680
00:24:30,235 --> 00:24:31,755
support and to help and to lead them

681
00:24:31,755 --> 00:24:33,055
closer to god. Yeah.

682
00:24:33,355 --> 00:24:35,795
Let's talk about just the youth demographic for

683
00:24:35,795 --> 00:24:37,434
a minute because it does feel like and

684
00:24:37,434 --> 00:24:39,195
I have a variety of theories on this

685
00:24:39,195 --> 00:24:39,695
where

686
00:24:40,090 --> 00:24:42,430
all things related to youth feels heavier

687
00:24:42,890 --> 00:24:45,450
in general. And I would probably and this

688
00:24:45,450 --> 00:24:47,529
is probably controversial, but I'd say it's probably

689
00:24:47,529 --> 00:24:49,690
not as heavy as you think. However, from

690
00:24:49,690 --> 00:24:51,769
a parent's standpoint, you're like, man, I remember

691
00:24:51,769 --> 00:24:53,930
little Johnny. When he was eight getting baptized,

692
00:24:53,930 --> 00:24:56,224
he was so precious up here, and now

693
00:24:56,224 --> 00:24:58,625
he's 14 and, like, what is happening? Right?

694
00:24:58,625 --> 00:25:01,265
Like, the contrast is there. And so you

695
00:25:01,265 --> 00:25:03,265
feel like we gotta triple down our effort.

696
00:25:03,265 --> 00:25:05,684
We gotta make sure that, you know, testimonies

697
00:25:05,744 --> 00:25:07,664
get established, that we're doing the youth activity,

698
00:25:07,664 --> 00:25:09,744
that, you know, that we're developing this person.

699
00:25:09,744 --> 00:25:12,220
Then we sorta overplay it to the point

700
00:25:12,220 --> 00:25:14,059
of, like, alright. Now I think we overwhelmed

701
00:25:14,059 --> 00:25:16,059
the the kid or not. You know? So

702
00:25:16,140 --> 00:25:18,619
but what does the data show or what

703
00:25:18,619 --> 00:25:20,880
can we learn just about how is this

704
00:25:21,019 --> 00:25:24,460
perfectionism, toxic perfectionism unique for youth the youth

705
00:25:24,460 --> 00:25:24,960
experience?

706
00:25:25,894 --> 00:25:27,274
Youth are just

707
00:25:27,654 --> 00:25:30,134
in that process of discovering who they are.

708
00:25:30,134 --> 00:25:32,774
Yeah. Right? They're an identity discovery in so

709
00:25:32,774 --> 00:25:33,434
many ways.

710
00:25:33,894 --> 00:25:36,294
And so what they're trying to figure out

711
00:25:36,294 --> 00:25:38,315
is where does my worth

712
00:25:38,615 --> 00:25:39,355
come from?

713
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,359
If I don't play basketball as well as

714
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:43,980
my dad wants me to play basketball,

715
00:25:44,519 --> 00:25:45,819
am I still loved?

716
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,000
If I don't get on the particular team

717
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:49,740
or whatever,

718
00:25:50,279 --> 00:25:51,259
am I still

719
00:25:51,799 --> 00:25:53,960
good and okay? And so they're trying to

720
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:55,500
figure all of that out.

721
00:25:55,904 --> 00:25:57,825
So it is a perfect time to try

722
00:25:57,825 --> 00:26:00,625
and instill in them, again, exactly what President

723
00:26:00,625 --> 00:26:02,384
Nelson is trying to do. Give us our

724
00:26:02,384 --> 00:26:05,105
true identities. Yeah. Help us to understand who

725
00:26:05,105 --> 00:26:06,384
we are and where we come from. That

726
00:26:06,384 --> 00:26:08,005
is going to be the very best

727
00:26:08,465 --> 00:26:10,484
combat against toxic perfectionism.

728
00:26:11,029 --> 00:26:12,649
Now what we found in our research

729
00:26:13,190 --> 00:26:16,009
is that parents who use what we call

730
00:26:16,149 --> 00:26:16,649
authoritarian

731
00:26:17,029 --> 00:26:20,950
parenting Mhmm. And that's high expectations but low

732
00:26:20,950 --> 00:26:23,130
love Mhmm. And low care and concern

733
00:26:23,515 --> 00:26:25,914
and often a lot of shaming Mhmm. For

734
00:26:25,914 --> 00:26:27,434
the kid doing the wrong thing where we

735
00:26:27,434 --> 00:26:29,275
would indicate to the kid that, you know

736
00:26:29,275 --> 00:26:31,595
what, mom, dad doesn't love you. Right? We

737
00:26:31,595 --> 00:26:33,515
give them the silent treatment. We use love

738
00:26:33,515 --> 00:26:34,015
withdrawal.

739
00:26:34,634 --> 00:26:37,035
Well, I'm gonna just kinda be cold shoulder

740
00:26:37,035 --> 00:26:37,775
over here

741
00:26:38,339 --> 00:26:38,839
because

742
00:26:39,140 --> 00:26:41,460
they're not doing the right thing. Mhmm. When

743
00:26:41,460 --> 00:26:43,059
in fact, when they're not doing the right

744
00:26:43,059 --> 00:26:44,679
thing, they probably need more

745
00:26:44,980 --> 00:26:47,299
of mom and dad. Mhmm. They probably need

746
00:26:47,299 --> 00:26:50,019
more love from us and more care and

747
00:26:50,019 --> 00:26:51,720
concern. Not that we drop standards,

748
00:26:52,414 --> 00:26:53,315
but that we

749
00:26:53,615 --> 00:26:55,794
are dialed into what they need

750
00:26:56,335 --> 00:26:58,355
because then that calls them

751
00:26:58,734 --> 00:26:59,234
to

752
00:26:59,615 --> 00:27:00,674
a higher standard

753
00:27:01,134 --> 00:27:01,954
rather than

754
00:27:02,414 --> 00:27:04,034
giving them, you know,

755
00:27:04,589 --> 00:27:05,250
icy fire

756
00:27:06,990 --> 00:27:09,869
to punish them to a higher standard. Right?

757
00:27:09,869 --> 00:27:12,109
We don't whip them to get along the

758
00:27:12,109 --> 00:27:15,230
path, we call them through our love. We

759
00:27:15,230 --> 00:27:15,970
found that

760
00:27:16,269 --> 00:27:17,730
when both mom and dad

761
00:27:18,164 --> 00:27:20,105
were authoritarian in their parenting,

762
00:27:20,485 --> 00:27:21,785
fifty percent of girls

763
00:27:22,085 --> 00:27:23,625
were high in toxic perfectionism,

764
00:27:23,924 --> 00:27:26,164
forty nine percent it was. I mean, it

765
00:27:26,164 --> 00:27:28,325
just goes off the charts as soon as

766
00:27:28,325 --> 00:27:30,485
mom and dad use this kind of love

767
00:27:30,485 --> 00:27:30,985
withdrawal

768
00:27:31,819 --> 00:27:34,059
and shame their children for doing the wrong

769
00:27:34,059 --> 00:27:37,099
thing versus if they do something wrong, it's

770
00:27:37,099 --> 00:27:38,880
so important for us to point that out

771
00:27:39,099 --> 00:27:40,480
and to work with them

772
00:27:40,859 --> 00:27:42,480
on that. But there's,

773
00:27:42,779 --> 00:27:44,640
you know, if a child comes home late,

774
00:27:44,944 --> 00:27:46,704
it's not written in the stars that the

775
00:27:46,704 --> 00:27:48,065
first thing you have to do is get

776
00:27:48,065 --> 00:27:49,424
really mad at them and say, Why were

777
00:27:49,424 --> 00:27:51,424
you late? You could start with, Well, how

778
00:27:51,424 --> 00:27:53,025
was your evening? Then, you know, talk about

779
00:27:53,025 --> 00:27:53,525
that.

780
00:27:53,904 --> 00:27:55,664
And guess what? With that, they'll probably talk

781
00:27:55,664 --> 00:27:57,265
about them being late. But if they don't,

782
00:27:57,265 --> 00:27:59,025
then eventually you say, Okay. Well, you came

783
00:27:59,025 --> 00:28:00,740
home late. Can you tell me about that?

784
00:28:00,740 --> 00:28:02,419
Alright. Well, we have a standard and we

785
00:28:02,419 --> 00:28:03,940
have this pattern. You know that these are

786
00:28:03,940 --> 00:28:06,819
the consequences gonna happen. Alright? And and we

787
00:28:06,819 --> 00:28:08,839
just have those standards and those patterns,

788
00:28:09,220 --> 00:28:10,679
but they're not enforced with

789
00:28:11,059 --> 00:28:14,305
hate. They're enforced with love. Yeah. And the

790
00:28:14,465 --> 00:28:16,384
man, there's so many things to consider, but

791
00:28:16,384 --> 00:28:17,765
the most tragic

792
00:28:18,305 --> 00:28:20,225
thing that comes from this is that often

793
00:28:20,225 --> 00:28:22,644
in those in those adolescence years,

794
00:28:22,945 --> 00:28:25,664
the experience they have with earthly parents is

795
00:28:25,664 --> 00:28:29,210
often what they project on our eternal father

796
00:28:29,269 --> 00:28:31,589
about, oh, you know, if my dad was

797
00:28:31,589 --> 00:28:33,269
angry pacing in the living room when I

798
00:28:33,269 --> 00:28:34,650
was five minutes past curfew,

799
00:28:35,190 --> 00:28:36,950
god must be pacing in his living room

800
00:28:36,950 --> 00:28:39,190
just so frustrated with these stupid mistakes I

801
00:28:39,190 --> 00:28:40,950
make. Right? And then they would not only

802
00:28:40,950 --> 00:28:43,755
withdraw from those earthly relationships but from those

803
00:28:43,755 --> 00:28:46,234
eternal relationships, that godly relationship where they're so

804
00:28:46,234 --> 00:28:49,295
powerful and and what's so needed in mortality.

805
00:28:49,355 --> 00:28:51,674
You know? It's tough. It's tough. Yeah. That

806
00:28:51,755 --> 00:28:54,714
that's absolutely the case. You tell a five

807
00:28:54,714 --> 00:28:57,210
year old your heavenly father loves you. That

808
00:28:57,210 --> 00:28:59,769
is so abstract for them. Right. Right? Your

809
00:28:59,769 --> 00:29:01,710
heavenly I I don't know what that is.

810
00:29:02,169 --> 00:29:05,390
Love, love is pretty abstract concept. Yeah. Father.

811
00:29:05,450 --> 00:29:07,529
Oh, father. Okay. I got one of those.

812
00:29:07,529 --> 00:29:09,690
Yeah. And so when the father says I

813
00:29:09,690 --> 00:29:11,049
love you and all that, okay. They're kinda

814
00:29:11,049 --> 00:29:13,994
getting this idea. And so, well, I guess

815
00:29:13,994 --> 00:29:16,234
how my father loves me here is how

816
00:29:16,234 --> 00:29:18,554
my heavenly father loves me. Yeah. And so,

817
00:29:18,554 --> 00:29:19,054
again,

818
00:29:19,434 --> 00:29:21,914
heavenly father loves you is actually pretty extract

819
00:29:21,914 --> 00:29:23,434
for, like, a four or five year old.

820
00:29:23,434 --> 00:29:25,115
Mhmm. And what do they do? They latch

821
00:29:25,115 --> 00:29:26,910
on to the words that they're familiar with.

822
00:29:26,990 --> 00:29:28,590
Yeah. And, oh, this is how this works

823
00:29:28,590 --> 00:29:30,830
then. This is how my dad Yeah. Works

824
00:29:30,830 --> 00:29:32,590
with me. And so if you're like me,

825
00:29:32,590 --> 00:29:34,190
you've made all kinds of mistakes along the

826
00:29:34,190 --> 00:29:35,710
way. Right? And so you try to explain

827
00:29:35,710 --> 00:29:37,390
to your child that your heavenly father is

828
00:29:37,390 --> 00:29:39,230
different from me, but then you also do

829
00:29:39,230 --> 00:29:40,970
try to apologize when you make mistakes to

830
00:29:40,970 --> 00:29:41,809
the parents. Right. That's powerful.

831
00:29:42,184 --> 00:29:42,684
And

832
00:29:43,144 --> 00:29:43,644
you

833
00:29:44,345 --> 00:29:46,105
do try to love them as their heavenly

834
00:29:46,105 --> 00:29:48,184
father would. Yeah. Yeah. And I just think

835
00:29:48,184 --> 00:29:50,664
with then maybe, you know, there's smarter people

836
00:29:50,664 --> 00:29:53,704
that could articulate this more accurately. But another

837
00:29:53,704 --> 00:29:55,785
dynamic that happens in those adolescents years is

838
00:29:55,785 --> 00:29:57,720
that they're just like that you'd mentioned, like,

839
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,640
they're just sort of becoming aware of their

840
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,200
identity. Right? Like, suddenly, they're really aware of

841
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,119
how they dress to school, the groups they're

842
00:30:04,119 --> 00:30:06,039
in. And and I think a lot of

843
00:30:06,039 --> 00:30:07,375
this stuff just works its way out of

844
00:30:07,375 --> 00:30:07,523
the, you know, out of the system as

845
00:30:07,523 --> 00:30:08,309
they mature and their

846
00:30:10,694 --> 00:30:12,423
mature and their brain develops, and then they're

847
00:30:12,423 --> 00:30:13,974
25 and they're like, oh, suddenly they're in

848
00:30:13,974 --> 00:30:16,295
grad school. Like and you can't really tie

849
00:30:16,295 --> 00:30:18,054
it back to like, oh, that's because I

850
00:30:18,054 --> 00:30:20,535
I shamed them enough at 14 that, you

851
00:30:20,535 --> 00:30:21,035
know

852
00:30:21,575 --> 00:30:23,255
even though we kinda wanna take that credit,

853
00:30:23,255 --> 00:30:24,569
you know, I think it's just a natural

854
00:30:24,569 --> 00:30:26,250
process. And I get like, my heart goes

855
00:30:26,250 --> 00:30:28,569
out to those, and I'm just stepping into

856
00:30:28,569 --> 00:30:30,970
the teenage years. But, like, the but, Kurt,

857
00:30:30,970 --> 00:30:33,529
what about those serious mistakes they can make?

858
00:30:33,529 --> 00:30:35,289
Like, what about, like oh, no. That's the

859
00:30:35,289 --> 00:30:37,369
atonement covers those two, and, you know, it'll

860
00:30:37,369 --> 00:30:38,984
be okay. But I my heart goes out.

861
00:30:39,065 --> 00:30:40,984
These are tough years. Right? And so but

862
00:30:40,984 --> 00:30:42,744
what I'm learning from you in this and

863
00:30:42,744 --> 00:30:44,605
what you're learning from the data is that

864
00:30:44,904 --> 00:30:46,505
the more we default to a place of

865
00:30:46,505 --> 00:30:47,005
identity,

866
00:30:47,704 --> 00:30:50,184
like, reminding them, hey. I know you didn't

867
00:30:50,184 --> 00:30:51,544
make that school team. I just want you

868
00:30:51,544 --> 00:30:53,220
to know, like, you could never make a

869
00:30:53,220 --> 00:30:55,140
school team again, and, like, I'd be here

870
00:30:55,140 --> 00:30:57,299
for you. Like, I'll still shoot hoops with

871
00:30:57,299 --> 00:30:59,619
you. I'll still we'll still do the things

872
00:30:59,619 --> 00:31:02,419
together. Right? And and, sir, reassuring that identity,

873
00:31:02,419 --> 00:31:05,539
which, again, our theology is just packed with

874
00:31:05,539 --> 00:31:08,204
this stuff. Right? President Nelson just

875
00:31:08,585 --> 00:31:10,904
been pounding the lectern for, you know, so

876
00:31:10,904 --> 00:31:12,825
many years now about remember who you are.

877
00:31:12,825 --> 00:31:14,664
Like, this is your identity, drawing people to

878
00:31:14,664 --> 00:31:16,845
the temple. What's what's the temple about? Identity.

879
00:31:16,904 --> 00:31:19,384
Right? So I'm just thinking, like, to enable

880
00:31:19,384 --> 00:31:21,710
those youth leaders out there, those parents of,

881
00:31:21,710 --> 00:31:22,909
like, if you don't know what to do,

882
00:31:22,909 --> 00:31:25,710
just default to divine identity and remind them

883
00:31:25,710 --> 00:31:27,630
again and again, and that will give you

884
00:31:27,630 --> 00:31:29,730
a foundation to build from. Absolutely.

885
00:31:30,190 --> 00:31:32,669
That is such the critical foundation upon which

886
00:31:32,669 --> 00:31:36,095
everything else builds. Yeah. Awesome. What about this

887
00:31:36,095 --> 00:31:37,455
is something I worry about. So I have

888
00:31:37,455 --> 00:31:39,455
a 13 year old, Devry. Just so sweet.

889
00:31:39,455 --> 00:31:40,115
Just like

890
00:31:40,494 --> 00:31:42,654
growing up, you know, she's in young women's

891
00:31:42,654 --> 00:31:45,634
now just and she's so good. Like,

892
00:31:46,095 --> 00:31:47,215
you know, and and I try and have

893
00:31:47,215 --> 00:31:49,200
these conversations with their ITs. They're like, don't

894
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:50,880
turn into a mean ager. Like, hope you

895
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:52,559
still like me throughout your teens. Like, of

896
00:31:52,559 --> 00:31:54,480
course, dad, I will. Right? But I also

897
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:56,400
worry that, you know, there's this I don't

898
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:57,759
know what they would call it, like, the

899
00:31:57,759 --> 00:31:58,740
the good student

900
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,500
syndrome where it's like somebody's sort of quietly

901
00:32:03,345 --> 00:32:06,544
suffering in toxic perfectionism. And so they're getting

902
00:32:06,544 --> 00:32:08,704
the straight a's. They're doing all the things.

903
00:32:08,704 --> 00:32:10,244
And then suddenly it snaps

904
00:32:10,785 --> 00:32:13,105
the more tragic scenarios of, you know, teen

905
00:32:13,105 --> 00:32:15,684
suicides and things of, like, wow. What happened?

906
00:32:16,065 --> 00:32:17,765
They were so good when in reality,

907
00:32:18,169 --> 00:32:19,609
they were interpreting it like, well, yeah, I

908
00:32:19,609 --> 00:32:20,970
have to be this good or that they

909
00:32:20,970 --> 00:32:23,450
would reject me. Right? Is there any, like

910
00:32:23,769 --> 00:32:25,369
I don't know if any that anything came

911
00:32:25,369 --> 00:32:26,650
out in the data or is it does

912
00:32:26,650 --> 00:32:27,549
that lead you anywhere?

913
00:32:27,849 --> 00:32:28,750
Oh, absolutely.

914
00:32:29,210 --> 00:32:30,894
There are many that are just suffering in

915
00:32:30,894 --> 00:32:32,575
silence and they look like they're doing good.

916
00:32:32,575 --> 00:32:34,494
They look like they're doing okay because they're

917
00:32:34,494 --> 00:32:36,515
succeeding in all these things.

918
00:32:36,974 --> 00:32:38,575
Honestly, it's a good thing every now and

919
00:32:38,575 --> 00:32:39,075
again,

920
00:32:39,375 --> 00:32:41,134
because you can kind of see if you're

921
00:32:41,134 --> 00:32:43,134
paying attention, you can kind of see perhaps

922
00:32:43,134 --> 00:32:46,160
some signs of and again, there are some

923
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,240
times where parents generally there there really weren't

924
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:49,920
signs, so I don't wanna say that. Right.

925
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,320
But if we can pay attention and say,

926
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,099
you know what? Are they doing okay?

927
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:56,080
I have expressed to one of my children

928
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:57,920
before. I said, you know, that if you

929
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,384
failed out of school, you'd still be okay.

930
00:33:00,384 --> 00:33:01,525
And I would love you.

931
00:33:01,825 --> 00:33:03,825
Right? And your life wouldn't be over if

932
00:33:03,825 --> 00:33:05,825
that happened. And it's like, Why is my

933
00:33:05,825 --> 00:33:07,825
dad giving me permission to fail out of

934
00:33:07,825 --> 00:33:09,265
school? And I say, No. Now let's try

935
00:33:09,265 --> 00:33:10,404
not to do that.

936
00:33:10,945 --> 00:33:12,625
But this is by far not the most

937
00:33:12,625 --> 00:33:14,005
important thing in your life.

938
00:33:14,390 --> 00:33:16,470
The most important thing in your life, right,

939
00:33:16,470 --> 00:33:18,309
are gonna be the relationships that you build

940
00:33:18,309 --> 00:33:20,970
with those around you, with your heavenly father.

941
00:33:21,110 --> 00:33:23,590
That's what's really most important. Yeah. I mean,

942
00:33:23,590 --> 00:33:25,269
a person could be a failure in so

943
00:33:25,269 --> 00:33:29,049
many ways in life, but still 100%

944
00:33:29,644 --> 00:33:30,144
succeed.

945
00:33:30,605 --> 00:33:33,505
There are people who are in total poverty

946
00:33:33,884 --> 00:33:35,184
that in the next life

947
00:33:35,484 --> 00:33:37,264
are gonna be so much better

948
00:33:37,644 --> 00:33:40,704
off than me who has a good job,

949
00:33:41,244 --> 00:33:42,224
right stability,

950
00:33:42,845 --> 00:33:43,984
all these things

951
00:33:44,380 --> 00:33:46,559
because they have managed to achieve

952
00:33:47,419 --> 00:33:51,179
those heavenly qualities. Mhmm. And so as we

953
00:33:51,179 --> 00:33:53,500
work with our kids, the more that we

954
00:33:53,500 --> 00:33:56,799
can acknowledge to them what really matters

955
00:33:57,259 --> 00:33:58,000
in life

956
00:33:58,539 --> 00:33:59,279
and that

957
00:34:00,115 --> 00:34:02,134
those successes that they have

958
00:34:02,595 --> 00:34:05,095
are fantastic, they're wonderful. We should

959
00:34:05,554 --> 00:34:06,054
applaud

960
00:34:06,434 --> 00:34:07,734
and praise those successes

961
00:34:08,195 --> 00:34:10,835
but also remember, you know what? That's not

962
00:34:10,835 --> 00:34:13,529
the end all be all Yeah. Of life.

963
00:34:13,829 --> 00:34:15,989
And reminding my kids that, Hey, I failed

964
00:34:15,989 --> 00:34:17,289
at a lot of things

965
00:34:17,750 --> 00:34:20,170
in my life. And helping them to

966
00:34:21,029 --> 00:34:23,529
recognize that failure is a part of life.

967
00:34:23,750 --> 00:34:24,250
And

968
00:34:25,074 --> 00:34:27,394
we naturally identify with those things that we're

969
00:34:27,394 --> 00:34:28,375
very good at.

970
00:34:28,755 --> 00:34:29,974
And so very naturally,

971
00:34:30,434 --> 00:34:31,335
say at BYU,

972
00:34:32,035 --> 00:34:34,275
you have people that have The students have

973
00:34:34,275 --> 00:34:36,454
done very, very well in high school.

974
00:34:36,835 --> 00:34:37,335
And

975
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:39,640
I talk to them about that and say,

976
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:41,180
Well, what if you were to,

977
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,380
again, naturally make one of your primary identities

978
00:34:45,079 --> 00:34:45,820
good student?

979
00:34:46,119 --> 00:34:47,719
What happens when you get that first B

980
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:48,380
at BYU?

981
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:50,750
And a lot of heads are like, Yeah,

982
00:34:50,750 --> 00:34:51,500
I remember

983
00:34:52,519 --> 00:34:54,755
that. Your whole world falls apart. Yeah. But

984
00:34:54,755 --> 00:34:56,694
it's a natural thing to have that develop

985
00:34:56,835 --> 00:34:58,194
because, Oh, I'm a really good student, and

986
00:34:58,194 --> 00:34:59,954
you're told you're a good student. Uh-huh. But

987
00:34:59,954 --> 00:35:01,795
we need to just continue to remind them

988
00:35:01,795 --> 00:35:03,734
that, you know what? That's a temporal thing.

989
00:35:03,795 --> 00:35:05,394
It's a wonderful thing. It's a great thing.

990
00:35:05,394 --> 00:35:06,835
Please do well on it because that can

991
00:35:06,835 --> 00:35:08,614
help you be a better disciple of Christ.

992
00:35:08,670 --> 00:35:09,809
But at the end of the day, that's

993
00:35:09,869 --> 00:35:12,349
what we're striving for. Yeah. And I appreciate

994
00:35:12,349 --> 00:35:14,510
that story you shared. Again, that paradox of,

995
00:35:14,510 --> 00:35:17,069
like, you're not telling your center daughter, like,

996
00:35:17,069 --> 00:35:18,670
you can actually flunk out of school and

997
00:35:18,670 --> 00:35:21,069
whatever. You know? But you're just it's an

998
00:35:21,069 --> 00:35:21,569
identity

999
00:35:21,949 --> 00:35:24,505
discussion. You're like, let's set behaviors aside for

1000
00:35:24,505 --> 00:35:26,505
men just so you know, like, we're good.

1001
00:35:26,505 --> 00:35:29,144
Like, whatever happens. And sometimes, as, you know,

1002
00:35:29,144 --> 00:35:31,065
taking back to the church context, I worry

1003
00:35:31,065 --> 00:35:32,364
we sometimes oversell

1004
00:35:33,065 --> 00:35:35,699
the gospel tradition and behaviors where it's like

1005
00:35:35,699 --> 00:35:37,219
in a priest quorum, you can't help but

1006
00:35:37,219 --> 00:35:38,659
talk about your mission. Let me show you

1007
00:35:38,659 --> 00:35:40,260
pictures. You guys are gonna love it. Like,

1008
00:35:40,260 --> 00:35:41,300
I'm gonna come to each one of your

1009
00:35:41,300 --> 00:35:43,219
mission call openings. It's gonna be great. Right?

1010
00:35:43,219 --> 00:35:44,980
And and then the the the young man

1011
00:35:44,980 --> 00:35:46,980
sitting there thinking, like, I don't wanna go

1012
00:35:46,980 --> 00:35:48,339
on a mission. So is this guy gonna

1013
00:35:48,339 --> 00:35:50,099
reject me the minute he finds out I

1014
00:35:50,099 --> 00:35:51,954
don't wanna go on a mission? Right? Or

1015
00:35:51,954 --> 00:35:53,914
we know we we hype up the temple.

1016
00:35:53,914 --> 00:35:56,074
Temple's awesome. It's like, actually, I'm kinda bored

1017
00:35:56,074 --> 00:35:57,594
when I go to the temple. You know?

1018
00:35:57,594 --> 00:35:59,594
Like, what does that mean about me? Right?

1019
00:35:59,594 --> 00:36:01,135
So the the more we can just

1020
00:36:01,434 --> 00:36:03,675
take it back to these identity discussions. But

1021
00:36:03,675 --> 00:36:05,355
at the same time, like, I've noticed just

1022
00:36:05,355 --> 00:36:08,159
in my parenting or relationships, when I make

1023
00:36:08,159 --> 00:36:08,900
sure that

1024
00:36:09,359 --> 00:36:09,859
identity

1025
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,460
conversation and foundation is set, then I can

1026
00:36:13,599 --> 00:36:15,199
approach my son or daughter and be like,

1027
00:36:15,199 --> 00:36:17,440
listen, I know you have it in you

1028
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,494
to take this on. Like, you can be

1029
00:36:19,494 --> 00:36:21,414
a missionary. Like, you got it. You have

1030
00:36:21,414 --> 00:36:22,315
what it takes.

1031
00:36:22,695 --> 00:36:24,614
Go do it. I'll be right here. Like,

1032
00:36:24,614 --> 00:36:26,534
I'll be writing the letters every week or

1033
00:36:26,534 --> 00:36:28,614
whatever. Right? Like, you have support. You can

1034
00:36:28,614 --> 00:36:30,054
do this. And then they're like, okay. I'm

1035
00:36:30,054 --> 00:36:32,054
I'm I know my identity. I can lean

1036
00:36:32,054 --> 00:36:33,610
in. And then that positive

1037
00:36:33,910 --> 00:36:35,050
perfectionism, like, just

1038
00:36:36,150 --> 00:36:39,349
drives them. Yeah. Amen. It's so good for

1039
00:36:39,349 --> 00:36:41,269
us to push our kids. Mhmm. My wife

1040
00:36:41,269 --> 00:36:43,030
is very good at this. You know, if

1041
00:36:43,030 --> 00:36:44,469
they go my kids go to the doctor's

1042
00:36:44,469 --> 00:36:46,390
office, even the little kids, go check yourself

1043
00:36:46,390 --> 00:36:48,230
in. Go talk to the receptionist. That's right.

1044
00:36:48,230 --> 00:36:50,525
Right? You make that phone call. Mhmm. Right?

1045
00:36:50,525 --> 00:36:52,364
Pushing these kids out of their comfort zone

1046
00:36:52,364 --> 00:36:54,764
to do things that, hey, I have confidence

1047
00:36:54,764 --> 00:36:56,684
in you. And when they perceive that we

1048
00:36:56,684 --> 00:36:57,424
have confidence

1049
00:36:57,804 --> 00:37:00,364
in them, like you just expressed, then they

1050
00:37:00,364 --> 00:37:01,744
can pick up that confidence

1051
00:37:02,125 --> 00:37:04,829
as well. And it's a great thing. Again,

1052
00:37:04,829 --> 00:37:06,750
it is great to have high standards. That's

1053
00:37:06,750 --> 00:37:08,989
a wonderful thing. It's an incredibly mentally healthy

1054
00:37:08,989 --> 00:37:10,849
thing Yeah. To have high standards.

1055
00:37:11,309 --> 00:37:13,230
And you can hold both of those things

1056
00:37:13,230 --> 00:37:15,789
in your hands. You can hold, I am

1057
00:37:15,789 --> 00:37:18,394
a child of God and no matter what

1058
00:37:18,535 --> 00:37:19,275
my mistakes

1059
00:37:20,055 --> 00:37:21,894
are, I can come back, and you can

1060
00:37:21,894 --> 00:37:23,815
hold in the other hand as well, I

1061
00:37:23,815 --> 00:37:25,335
need to have high standards. And in fact,

1062
00:37:25,335 --> 00:37:26,155
those are reinforcing

1063
00:37:26,454 --> 00:37:29,335
things. They're not mutually exclusive. They're things that

1064
00:37:29,335 --> 00:37:29,835
actually

1065
00:37:30,135 --> 00:37:32,309
boost each other. Yeah. And that takes me

1066
00:37:32,309 --> 00:37:35,349
to this conversation of, like, sometimes leaders are

1067
00:37:35,349 --> 00:37:36,250
really hesitant

1068
00:37:36,630 --> 00:37:38,489
because you think about, like, the LGBT

1069
00:37:39,190 --> 00:37:39,690
dynamics

1070
00:37:40,150 --> 00:37:41,210
and, being a

1071
00:37:41,510 --> 00:37:42,010
LGBTQ

1072
00:37:42,469 --> 00:37:44,570
Latter day Saint and wow. Like, that's

1073
00:37:44,945 --> 00:37:46,324
complex. It's complicated.

1074
00:37:46,625 --> 00:37:49,025
And so maybe let's not talk about the

1075
00:37:49,025 --> 00:37:51,105
temple so much or about these commandments, and

1076
00:37:51,105 --> 00:37:52,945
let's just make sure that, you know, they're

1077
00:37:52,945 --> 00:37:55,344
in a a mental health state that's actually

1078
00:37:55,344 --> 00:37:57,219
pause you know, we we kinda try and

1079
00:37:57,219 --> 00:37:59,239
control these dynamics to the point of

1080
00:37:59,539 --> 00:38:01,539
not having permission to lean in and say,

1081
00:38:01,539 --> 00:38:03,699
no. This is a valid thing. So anything

1082
00:38:03,699 --> 00:38:05,140
come to mind as far as, like, when

1083
00:38:05,380 --> 00:38:07,960
sometimes we wanna kinda downplay the the gospel.

1084
00:38:08,260 --> 00:38:09,885
I mean, and maybe we've already covered it.

1085
00:38:09,885 --> 00:38:11,485
Though. No, no, no. That's a really great

1086
00:38:11,485 --> 00:38:13,344
point, especially when we're thinking about

1087
00:38:13,804 --> 00:38:16,045
kids who might not fit the typical mold.

1088
00:38:16,045 --> 00:38:18,704
Right? Your LGBTQ individuals. And okay, well,

1089
00:38:19,164 --> 00:38:21,644
we might not quite know how to approach

1090
00:38:21,644 --> 00:38:23,519
that. Obviously, the best way to approach that

1091
00:38:23,519 --> 00:38:25,119
is a one on one Yeah. Sort of

1092
00:38:25,119 --> 00:38:26,880
a thing where we're trying to understand where

1093
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:28,019
they're coming from

1094
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,559
and see where they're at and then bring

1095
00:38:30,559 --> 00:38:32,079
them along in a in a one by

1096
00:38:32,079 --> 00:38:34,719
one on one thing. But the research is

1097
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:36,775
actually pretty clear and not just from our

1098
00:38:36,775 --> 00:38:38,775
research but other research studies that the more

1099
00:38:38,775 --> 00:38:42,054
religious LGBTQ individuals are, the better their mental

1100
00:38:42,054 --> 00:38:45,735
health. Yeah. And they also derive benefit from

1101
00:38:45,735 --> 00:38:48,295
religion. And so actually if we, if you

1102
00:38:48,295 --> 00:38:50,295
will, soft pedal it and say that some

1103
00:38:50,295 --> 00:38:52,880
people are gonna be exempt from some commandments,

1104
00:38:53,500 --> 00:38:55,359
what you've done is you've just taken away

1105
00:38:55,579 --> 00:38:58,380
supports. Mhmm. In an effort to be kind

1106
00:38:58,380 --> 00:39:00,699
and loving and supportive, we've actually just removed

1107
00:39:00,699 --> 00:39:01,440
some supports

1108
00:39:01,900 --> 00:39:04,940
from those individuals because the commandments are a

1109
00:39:04,940 --> 00:39:07,074
support. They're so good for us

1110
00:39:07,534 --> 00:39:08,434
in our lives.

1111
00:39:09,295 --> 00:39:10,894
And if we decide to remove some of

1112
00:39:10,894 --> 00:39:12,034
those for some people,

1113
00:39:12,335 --> 00:39:15,375
then we've actually done them a disservice. Right.

1114
00:39:15,375 --> 00:39:18,194
And again, we need to make sure that

1115
00:39:18,849 --> 00:39:19,909
particularly with individuals

1116
00:39:21,010 --> 00:39:23,489
whose experiences might be well outside the norm,

1117
00:39:23,489 --> 00:39:25,030
we need to be able to

1118
00:39:25,409 --> 00:39:27,170
engage with them on a one on one

1119
00:39:27,170 --> 00:39:28,869
basis. And again, that's why

1120
00:39:29,170 --> 00:39:31,109
the local leaders are so important

1121
00:39:31,565 --> 00:39:33,325
to be right there and dialed in with

1122
00:39:33,325 --> 00:39:34,785
what the youth are experiencing.

1123
00:39:35,244 --> 00:39:35,905
My parents

1124
00:39:36,364 --> 00:39:38,605
can be dialed in with their kids' experiences

1125
00:39:38,605 --> 00:39:40,644
as much as they can. I remember as

1126
00:39:40,644 --> 00:39:41,805
a kid there were some things I was

1127
00:39:41,805 --> 00:39:44,045
far more comfortable talking to a youth leader

1128
00:39:44,045 --> 00:39:45,389
about than my own parents. My parents are

1129
00:39:45,389 --> 00:39:46,315
fantastic people, but

1130
00:39:46,769 --> 00:39:49,090
people, but just for whatever reason, I just

1131
00:39:49,090 --> 00:39:50,929
felt like, oh, I need to would talk

1132
00:39:50,929 --> 00:39:52,690
with some somebody else. And that's that's a

1133
00:39:52,690 --> 00:39:55,570
natural thing. Right. Yeah. Is there anything that

1134
00:39:55,570 --> 00:39:57,010
came out of the data that,

1135
00:39:57,409 --> 00:39:58,949
for the adult demographic,

1136
00:39:59,585 --> 00:40:01,424
not just, you know, after you've matured out

1137
00:40:01,424 --> 00:40:04,464
of, teenage years, anything that's unique about adults

1138
00:40:04,464 --> 00:40:05,924
and toxic perfectionism?

1139
00:40:06,384 --> 00:40:07,904
You know, what we found is that lower

1140
00:40:07,904 --> 00:40:10,085
levels of toxic perfectionism in adults.

1141
00:40:10,545 --> 00:40:13,570
So it seems like you got toxic perfectionism

1142
00:40:13,710 --> 00:40:15,650
that kind of grows throughout

1143
00:40:16,269 --> 00:40:18,590
the teenage years and adolescence and early adulthood.

1144
00:40:18,590 --> 00:40:20,349
You kind of have that increase there. But

1145
00:40:20,349 --> 00:40:22,130
it looks like a little later in life,

1146
00:40:22,349 --> 00:40:23,710
you know, you kind of settle down a

1147
00:40:23,710 --> 00:40:25,809
little bit. You make enough mistakes to realize

1148
00:40:25,869 --> 00:40:27,565
you're probably not gonna figure it out. Right?

1149
00:40:27,565 --> 00:40:29,164
That's right. That's right. That's right. You just

1150
00:40:29,164 --> 00:40:30,605
gotta give up. You're just tired. It was

1151
00:40:30,605 --> 00:40:31,505
like, you know, and

1152
00:40:32,285 --> 00:40:34,224
I'm imperfect. And so be it. Perfect. Yeah.

1153
00:40:34,765 --> 00:40:37,325
But what we did find actually even more

1154
00:40:37,325 --> 00:40:40,190
with the youth that religion helps to dial

1155
00:40:40,190 --> 00:40:41,409
down toxic perfectionism.

1156
00:40:42,269 --> 00:40:45,230
Mhmm. For youth, toxic perfectionism leads to less

1157
00:40:45,230 --> 00:40:47,869
religious behaviors. Mhmm. In some instances, you had

1158
00:40:47,869 --> 00:40:48,769
religious behaviors

1159
00:40:49,150 --> 00:40:50,609
decreasing toxic perfectionism,

1160
00:40:51,224 --> 00:40:53,305
but you really found a big negative effect

1161
00:40:53,305 --> 00:40:54,364
of toxic perfectionism

1162
00:40:54,664 --> 00:40:57,065
on religion. So kids who experience that, they're

1163
00:40:57,065 --> 00:40:58,445
more likely to back away.

1164
00:40:58,744 --> 00:40:59,644
And in fact,

1165
00:40:59,945 --> 00:41:01,644
you know, we think of the toxic perfectionist

1166
00:41:01,864 --> 00:41:04,184
kid as being that kid who is super

1167
00:41:04,184 --> 00:41:04,925
high achieving,

1168
00:41:05,460 --> 00:41:07,800
But it's actually can also be the kid

1169
00:41:08,099 --> 00:41:10,920
that decides, I'm going to do nothing. Mhmm.

1170
00:41:11,059 --> 00:41:12,760
Because it's just so dangerous.

1171
00:41:13,059 --> 00:41:14,199
If I make a mistake,

1172
00:41:14,739 --> 00:41:17,539
then I'm worthless. Yeah. And so it's easier

1173
00:41:17,539 --> 00:41:18,679
not to try.

1174
00:41:19,055 --> 00:41:20,575
And so it can be the kid that

1175
00:41:20,575 --> 00:41:22,275
just spends all their day on video games

1176
00:41:22,735 --> 00:41:25,215
because they're just so scared of trying. Yeah.

1177
00:41:25,215 --> 00:41:26,894
Like this is a safe place and I

1178
00:41:26,894 --> 00:41:28,414
can achieve whatever I can here in this

1179
00:41:28,414 --> 00:41:30,974
video game, but if I try outside of

1180
00:41:30,974 --> 00:41:33,075
this, in school, in church,

1181
00:41:33,380 --> 00:41:35,380
it's just too painful. Yeah. And so I'm

1182
00:41:35,380 --> 00:41:37,160
just going to back away from it all.

1183
00:41:37,380 --> 00:41:39,380
So we found that a lot that kids

1184
00:41:39,380 --> 00:41:40,519
who were toxic perfectionists

1185
00:41:40,820 --> 00:41:42,920
tended to shy away from religion.

1186
00:41:43,300 --> 00:41:45,539
And the opposite was also true in some

1187
00:41:45,539 --> 00:41:48,325
instances where the more religious you were that

1188
00:41:48,325 --> 00:41:50,405
dialed down the toxic perfectionism, but that was

1189
00:41:50,405 --> 00:41:52,105
actually particularly true in adults.

1190
00:41:53,125 --> 00:41:55,684
That the more secure relationship they had with

1191
00:41:55,684 --> 00:41:56,184
God,

1192
00:41:56,485 --> 00:41:58,244
that I feel like God's trustworthy and all

1193
00:41:58,244 --> 00:42:00,664
that, the less they experienced toxic perfectionism.

1194
00:42:01,130 --> 00:42:03,150
And that behavior such as

1195
00:42:03,929 --> 00:42:05,309
scripture reading and

1196
00:42:05,769 --> 00:42:08,590
church attendance, that helped to translate into

1197
00:42:09,130 --> 00:42:11,849
that secure attachment to God and then less

1198
00:42:11,849 --> 00:42:12,750
toxic perfectionism.

1199
00:42:13,545 --> 00:42:16,744
So the behaviors really only mattered in as

1200
00:42:16,744 --> 00:42:18,905
much as they were helping the adults and

1201
00:42:18,905 --> 00:42:20,684
the youth, but more so even the adults,

1202
00:42:20,824 --> 00:42:23,385
create that healthy relationship with God. Like I

1203
00:42:23,385 --> 00:42:25,385
can trust God, he's going to be there

1204
00:42:25,385 --> 00:42:27,519
for me and we call that a secure

1205
00:42:27,519 --> 00:42:29,139
attachment with God. Yeah.

1206
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:30,880
And and, you know, I wanna remind myself,

1207
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:32,319
and correct me if I'm wrong, like like,

1208
00:42:32,319 --> 00:42:34,319
you're the researcher. You're the data guy. You

1209
00:42:34,319 --> 00:42:35,679
didn't say I did the day, and now

1210
00:42:35,679 --> 00:42:37,599
I have all the solutions. But just for

1211
00:42:37,599 --> 00:42:40,525
conversation's sake, I'm curious. Like, I'm just thinking

1212
00:42:40,525 --> 00:42:42,364
of that person, and we've all heard this

1213
00:42:42,364 --> 00:42:44,844
story where someone is sort of propelled into

1214
00:42:44,844 --> 00:42:47,164
a faith crisis because they're just like, I

1215
00:42:47,164 --> 00:42:47,664
just

1216
00:42:48,045 --> 00:42:50,605
can't do it all anymore. Because somewhere along

1217
00:42:50,605 --> 00:42:52,299
the path, they got this idea that if

1218
00:42:52,299 --> 00:42:53,500
you're not going to the temple once a

1219
00:42:53,500 --> 00:42:55,739
week or studying your scriptures sixty minutes a

1220
00:42:55,739 --> 00:42:57,980
day, like, doing all the things, then you're

1221
00:42:57,980 --> 00:42:59,579
not a good Latter Saint. Right? There's the

1222
00:42:59,579 --> 00:43:02,059
identity battle. Right? I mean, is there anything

1223
00:43:02,059 --> 00:43:03,819
comes to mind for an adult who's in

1224
00:43:03,819 --> 00:43:06,355
that state, like, or a Bishop who sees

1225
00:43:06,355 --> 00:43:08,434
someone in that state that, I mean, what

1226
00:43:08,434 --> 00:43:09,175
do we do?

1227
00:43:09,555 --> 00:43:10,994
I think one thing, of course we deal

1228
00:43:10,994 --> 00:43:12,535
with them as we weep with them

1229
00:43:12,994 --> 00:43:14,775
and we recognize the struggle

1230
00:43:15,075 --> 00:43:16,135
and we see ourselves

1231
00:43:17,315 --> 00:43:18,980
in that, in that individual.

1232
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:20,340
And

1233
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,400
we going back to, you know, what I

1234
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:25,460
mentioned just earlier,

1235
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:29,300
these things are designed to help us build

1236
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,880
a good relationship with God. Right. And make

1237
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:33,780
us more godly.

1238
00:43:34,135 --> 00:43:35,434
We talk about the checklist,

1239
00:43:35,735 --> 00:43:37,494
you know, all the time and that this

1240
00:43:37,494 --> 00:43:38,875
isn't a checklist gospel

1241
00:43:39,335 --> 00:43:41,595
and that if you're reading your scriptures

1242
00:43:41,974 --> 00:43:42,715
every day,

1243
00:43:43,095 --> 00:43:45,815
but it's just stressing you out, right, and

1244
00:43:45,815 --> 00:43:48,215
and it's just so heavy on you. Mhmm.

1245
00:43:48,215 --> 00:43:50,269
You know what? Maybe what you say is

1246
00:43:50,269 --> 00:43:52,530
instead of reading it, I need to listen

1247
00:43:52,989 --> 00:43:54,590
to some song that's going to be very

1248
00:43:54,590 --> 00:43:56,590
uplifting to me. That's going to help me

1249
00:43:56,590 --> 00:43:57,650
connect with deity.

1250
00:43:58,030 --> 00:43:59,949
And that's going to be part of my

1251
00:43:59,949 --> 00:44:03,010
deep connection with God today. What really matters

1252
00:44:03,309 --> 00:44:05,364
almost at the end of the day is

1253
00:44:05,364 --> 00:44:07,844
that these patterns are helping us to create

1254
00:44:07,844 --> 00:44:09,305
deep connections with God

1255
00:44:09,765 --> 00:44:12,265
in ways that help to sustain our faith

1256
00:44:12,325 --> 00:44:12,985
in Christ

1257
00:44:13,605 --> 00:44:15,864
and sustain us along the covenant path.

1258
00:44:16,164 --> 00:44:16,905
And so

1259
00:44:17,285 --> 00:44:19,144
what are those things for

1260
00:44:19,849 --> 00:44:22,269
you that help you, that enable

1261
00:44:23,210 --> 00:44:24,349
you to do that?

1262
00:44:24,730 --> 00:44:26,570
Is there a moment where, you know what,

1263
00:44:26,570 --> 00:44:28,890
this is just so stressful and maybe I

1264
00:44:28,890 --> 00:44:31,050
need to do something a little bit different

1265
00:44:31,050 --> 00:44:32,510
and find refreshment

1266
00:44:33,835 --> 00:44:35,775
in what we're doing. So I,

1267
00:44:36,235 --> 00:44:38,235
you know, for a living, I teach about

1268
00:44:38,235 --> 00:44:38,894
the gospel.

1269
00:44:39,434 --> 00:44:41,355
And I was talking with another person who

1270
00:44:41,355 --> 00:44:43,434
was do who who also teaches the gospel

1271
00:44:43,434 --> 00:44:44,175
for a living

1272
00:44:44,635 --> 00:44:46,750
and they were super stressed out with things.

1273
00:44:46,750 --> 00:44:48,430
And they're like, you know, I know all

1274
00:44:48,430 --> 00:44:50,829
the gospel answers. You know, I do this.

1275
00:44:50,829 --> 00:44:52,430
I read the scriptures all the time. I'm

1276
00:44:52,430 --> 00:44:53,490
studying the scriptures

1277
00:44:53,950 --> 00:44:55,010
like I should,

1278
00:44:55,309 --> 00:44:56,930
because I know all this stuff,

1279
00:44:57,230 --> 00:44:58,450
be able to do that.

1280
00:44:58,815 --> 00:45:01,054
Well, and as we got into discussion, you

1281
00:45:01,054 --> 00:45:02,594
know, some of their realization

1282
00:45:03,454 --> 00:45:03,954
was,

1283
00:45:04,255 --> 00:45:06,675
you know what? I'm doing this intellectually

1284
00:45:07,614 --> 00:45:09,155
and I know these things intellectually,

1285
00:45:10,094 --> 00:45:11,234
but my relationship

1286
00:45:11,534 --> 00:45:12,434
might be suffering.

1287
00:45:13,219 --> 00:45:14,980
You know, I could know everything there was

1288
00:45:14,980 --> 00:45:16,900
to know about my mother. And I could

1289
00:45:16,900 --> 00:45:18,659
tell you everything there was to know about

1290
00:45:18,659 --> 00:45:20,339
my mother and you would know all these

1291
00:45:20,339 --> 00:45:22,019
things. I could write books about, you know,

1292
00:45:22,019 --> 00:45:24,579
my mother and then But that doesn't mean

1293
00:45:24,579 --> 00:45:26,579
that I or you have a relationship with

1294
00:45:26,579 --> 00:45:29,675
her. Right. It's about the actual connection

1295
00:45:30,454 --> 00:45:31,355
with the divine

1296
00:45:32,055 --> 00:45:33,434
that makes the big difference.

1297
00:45:33,735 --> 00:45:35,575
And it's us working for it. If we're

1298
00:45:35,575 --> 00:45:37,255
not feeling it right now, we recognize that

1299
00:45:37,255 --> 00:45:38,614
there are periods in our lives that we

1300
00:45:38,614 --> 00:45:40,315
might not feel that as strongly.

1301
00:45:40,700 --> 00:45:43,039
So we keep on keeping on, you know,

1302
00:45:43,420 --> 00:45:46,059
but we're working for those moments, those quiet

1303
00:45:46,059 --> 00:45:47,840
moments, those moments of pondering

1304
00:45:48,700 --> 00:45:49,200
where

1305
00:45:50,059 --> 00:45:51,440
actually having that

1306
00:45:51,740 --> 00:45:53,519
deep connection with the divine.

1307
00:45:53,934 --> 00:45:56,255
We're going to the temple to try to

1308
00:45:56,255 --> 00:45:59,135
enable deep connections with the divine. We're reading

1309
00:45:59,135 --> 00:45:59,795
our scriptures

1310
00:46:00,335 --> 00:46:00,835
to

1311
00:46:01,454 --> 00:46:03,694
have deep connections with the divine, to have

1312
00:46:03,694 --> 00:46:05,474
those moments of touching the divine

1313
00:46:05,980 --> 00:46:08,079
so that we can get that relationship.

1314
00:46:08,539 --> 00:46:10,940
Right? It's not just this intellectual exercise that

1315
00:46:10,940 --> 00:46:11,440
sometimes

1316
00:46:11,900 --> 00:46:13,360
And it's not just these behaviors

1317
00:46:13,900 --> 00:46:16,140
that we do that we sometimes think are

1318
00:46:16,140 --> 00:46:18,505
it. The behaviors are important and they can

1319
00:46:18,505 --> 00:46:20,824
facilitate that connection, but that's really where it's

1320
00:46:20,824 --> 00:46:21,324
at.

1321
00:46:21,625 --> 00:46:23,864
And us transmitting that to the person and

1322
00:46:23,864 --> 00:46:26,525
us feeling that for ourselves is really where

1323
00:46:27,144 --> 00:46:27,885
the refreshment.

1324
00:46:28,505 --> 00:46:31,304
Yeah. That's where the refreshment comes is in

1325
00:46:31,304 --> 00:46:33,724
those moments. Yeah. I love that. Just that,

1326
00:46:33,969 --> 00:46:36,309
know, the obviously, the temple is an intellectual

1327
00:46:36,369 --> 00:46:38,130
experience from time to time and, you know,

1328
00:46:38,130 --> 00:46:41,349
information's being discussed and principles are are there.

1329
00:46:41,570 --> 00:46:43,489
But some parts you think like, well, what

1330
00:46:43,489 --> 00:46:45,349
about the celestial room? Nothing intellectual

1331
00:46:45,650 --> 00:46:47,489
is going on there. I'm not, like, listening

1332
00:46:47,489 --> 00:46:49,429
to something. I'm just, like, sitting. Like, why

1333
00:46:49,429 --> 00:46:51,863
are we wasting our time here? Right? When

1334
00:46:51,863 --> 00:46:54,297
in reality, it's so relational to sit in

1335
00:46:54,297 --> 00:46:56,731
God's house on his sofa and just be

1336
00:46:56,731 --> 00:46:59,164
there. Like, with that moment of the spirit

1337
00:46:59,164 --> 00:47:01,598
that's there, not to learn something, but to

1338
00:47:01,598 --> 00:47:03,760
be there. Right? And so sometimes I think

1339
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:05,039
there is those moments where you have to

1340
00:47:05,039 --> 00:47:06,720
think, okay, I'm doing a lot of stuff.

1341
00:47:06,720 --> 00:47:08,640
I'm learning a lot of stuff. I just

1342
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:10,160
need to take a breath and lean into

1343
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:12,579
that relationship that you talk about. That's awesome.

1344
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:14,640
I remember as a missionary, it was then

1345
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:16,974
Elder Oaks came to our mission and, he

1346
00:47:16,974 --> 00:47:19,695
says, we read scriptures differently than anybody else.

1347
00:47:19,695 --> 00:47:22,094
I'm paraphrasing him. He says, because we have

1348
00:47:22,094 --> 00:47:23,715
the Holy Ghost with us,

1349
00:47:24,255 --> 00:47:26,574
we can then get this conduit, kind of

1350
00:47:26,574 --> 00:47:27,074
this

1351
00:47:27,769 --> 00:47:29,309
conduit to us to heaven

1352
00:47:29,769 --> 00:47:30,510
and that

1353
00:47:30,889 --> 00:47:33,929
the scriptures then become a mechanism to create

1354
00:47:33,929 --> 00:47:34,750
that conduit

1355
00:47:35,369 --> 00:47:37,289
to heaven and to feel the Holy Spirit

1356
00:47:37,289 --> 00:47:38,030
with us.

1357
00:47:38,409 --> 00:47:40,489
And if we think about our scripture study

1358
00:47:40,489 --> 00:47:42,864
as, oh, this is helping me to

1359
00:47:43,324 --> 00:47:44,464
access that conduit,

1360
00:47:44,925 --> 00:47:46,204
that is going to be so much more

1361
00:47:46,204 --> 00:47:48,764
healthy than thinking, if I do my scriptures

1362
00:47:48,764 --> 00:47:51,085
today, I'm going to score 10 points lower

1363
00:47:51,085 --> 00:47:52,545
on my depression scale, whatever.

1364
00:47:53,085 --> 00:47:54,445
Like that's Yeah. Somehow that's going to be

1365
00:47:54,445 --> 00:47:56,069
it. Like because I did that,

1366
00:47:56,449 --> 00:47:57,730
am I doing this so that I can

1367
00:47:57,730 --> 00:47:58,630
be in a place

1368
00:47:59,089 --> 00:48:01,089
where conduits to heaven can be open? And

1369
00:48:01,089 --> 00:48:03,089
it's not gonna happen every day. Right. But

1370
00:48:03,089 --> 00:48:03,829
we regularly

1371
00:48:04,289 --> 00:48:05,889
be in that place where those moments can

1372
00:48:05,889 --> 00:48:08,710
happen. Yeah. Yeah. Reaching for it. That's powerful.

1373
00:48:08,974 --> 00:48:10,574
Well, before wrap up, what what are the

1374
00:48:10,574 --> 00:48:13,135
next big questions or other things you're you're

1375
00:48:13,135 --> 00:48:14,815
discussing that maybe we'll have you back on

1376
00:48:14,815 --> 00:48:16,494
for? I mean, are there big questions in

1377
00:48:16,494 --> 00:48:19,074
your research that you're leaning towards? You know,

1378
00:48:19,215 --> 00:48:20,655
one thing that we have been looking a

1379
00:48:20,655 --> 00:48:21,795
lot about is

1380
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:24,480
women in the church. Oh, cool. We have

1381
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:24,980
had

1382
00:48:25,519 --> 00:48:26,019
for

1383
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:28,960
ever since we've been collecting data, not just

1384
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:32,079
us, but data and historical data, women are

1385
00:48:32,079 --> 00:48:34,239
more religious than men. And what we're finding

1386
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:35,460
is that might be starting

1387
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,664
to flip. And so we're really interested in

1388
00:48:38,664 --> 00:48:39,644
women's experiences

1389
00:48:40,264 --> 00:48:42,744
today. And this is in Christianity in general.

1390
00:48:42,744 --> 00:48:44,984
We're seeing a worldwide thing, not a worldwide

1391
00:48:44,984 --> 00:48:46,605
thing, I should say, more in the West,

1392
00:48:46,664 --> 00:48:49,224
that's starting to change. And so we're wondering

1393
00:48:49,224 --> 00:48:51,309
a little bit about, okay, well, how are

1394
00:48:51,309 --> 00:48:52,750
women doing in the church and what can

1395
00:48:52,750 --> 00:48:54,510
we do there to better serve them? So

1396
00:48:54,510 --> 00:48:55,409
we're actually starting

1397
00:48:55,710 --> 00:48:57,710
a project to look at that now. Cool.

1398
00:48:57,710 --> 00:49:00,349
Alright. There's your tease. So Jez will be

1399
00:49:00,349 --> 00:49:02,109
back. Well, just to end, what what final

1400
00:49:02,109 --> 00:49:04,049
encouragement would you give to church leaders?

1401
00:49:04,405 --> 00:49:05,144
I would

1402
00:49:05,445 --> 00:49:07,765
say thank you for what you're doing. You

1403
00:49:07,765 --> 00:49:09,305
literally are saving lives

1404
00:49:09,765 --> 00:49:11,144
by what you're teaching.

1405
00:49:11,525 --> 00:49:13,625
And then of course, minister to the one.

1406
00:49:14,085 --> 00:49:16,885
Find those that are having a difficulty with

1407
00:49:16,885 --> 00:49:18,265
the teachings of the church

1408
00:49:18,690 --> 00:49:21,650
in any way, right? Are they experiencing toxic

1409
00:49:21,650 --> 00:49:24,130
perfectionism when they hear these kinds of, when

1410
00:49:24,130 --> 00:49:26,609
they hear about standards, right? Again, it's a

1411
00:49:26,609 --> 00:49:27,510
natural inclination.

1412
00:49:27,809 --> 00:49:29,969
We shouldn't back away from the standards. We

1413
00:49:29,969 --> 00:49:32,130
should talk about them, but then also make

1414
00:49:32,130 --> 00:49:32,630
sure

1415
00:49:33,089 --> 00:49:35,635
that we're understanding how people are interpreting these

1416
00:49:35,635 --> 00:49:37,315
things and that they're not interpreting it in

1417
00:49:37,315 --> 00:49:39,155
a way that would indicate that God doesn't

1418
00:49:39,155 --> 00:49:41,315
love them or that there's not infinite hope

1419
00:49:41,315 --> 00:49:42,614
for them if they make mistakes.

1420
00:49:43,074 --> 00:49:44,835
It's a beautiful thing to be able to

1421
00:49:44,835 --> 00:49:46,375
teach the Lord's standards

1422
00:49:47,039 --> 00:49:47,539
and

1423
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:50,000
at the same time communicate the love that

1424
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:51,599
God has for them, that you have for

1425
00:49:51,599 --> 00:49:53,199
them, and that you can be that conduit

1426
00:49:53,199 --> 00:49:54,180
of God's love

1427
00:49:54,559 --> 00:49:57,360
to them, to call them to greater and

1428
00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:58,180
greater heights.

1429
00:50:05,704 --> 00:50:07,224
Now that we've reached the end of the

1430
00:50:07,224 --> 00:50:07,724
episode,

1431
00:50:08,025 --> 00:50:10,105
I quickly want to thank you for supporting

1432
00:50:10,105 --> 00:50:11,404
the leading saints podcast.

1433
00:50:11,784 --> 00:50:13,864
There's so much content out there to consider

1434
00:50:13,864 --> 00:50:16,344
and you picked this one. If leading saints

1435
00:50:16,344 --> 00:50:18,480
has made an impact in your life, we

1436
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:20,480
would sure like to hear about it at

1437
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:22,420
leadingsaints.org/contact.

1438
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,039
And if you could quickly text or email

1439
00:50:25,039 --> 00:50:27,519
this episode to a leader, you know, I

1440
00:50:27,519 --> 00:50:29,199
bet it will bless their life. You can

1441
00:50:29,199 --> 00:50:31,119
mark off your good turn daily and let's

1442
00:50:31,119 --> 00:50:33,599
even call it ministering. Okay. Maybe not that

1443
00:50:33,599 --> 00:50:35,965
far, But seriously, thank you, and help us

1444
00:50:35,965 --> 00:50:36,945
share this content.

1445
00:50:37,324 --> 00:50:40,045
Remember, the Jody Moore presentation about youth and

1446
00:50:40,045 --> 00:50:43,905
mental health is waiting for you at leadingsaints.org/fourteen.

1447
00:50:53,710 --> 00:50:56,190
It came as a result of the position

1448
00:50:56,190 --> 00:50:59,250
of leadership which was imposed upon us

1449
00:50:59,630 --> 00:51:01,730
by the God of heaven who brought

1450
00:51:02,105 --> 00:51:05,405
forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus

1451
00:51:05,545 --> 00:51:06,045
Christ.

1452
00:51:06,585 --> 00:51:07,724
And when the declaration

1453
00:51:08,025 --> 00:51:11,304
was made concerning the own and only true

1454
00:51:11,304 --> 00:51:13,704
and living Church upon the face of the

1455
00:51:13,704 --> 00:51:14,159
earth,

1456
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:17,380
We were immediately put in a position of

1457
00:51:17,519 --> 00:51:18,019
loneliness,

1458
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:19,940
the loneliness of leadership

1459
00:51:20,639 --> 00:51:23,619
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,

1460
00:51:24,319 --> 00:51:26,799
and to which we must face up with

1461
00:51:26,799 --> 00:51:28,339
boldness and courage

1462
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:29,619
and ability.