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How's your teaching calling going? Have you ever

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asked a question during the second hour and

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suddenly everyone is looking at the carpet in

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silence?

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There are proven methods to stimulate class discussion

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that work like a charm. David Farnsworth does

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a masterful job presenting on this very subject

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in the Teaching Saints virtual library. What questions

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get people talking? How can you effectively listen

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to the answer they're saying without being distracted

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of where you wanna take the class next?

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These are crucial principles to consider, especially in

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this time of come follow me Sunday school.

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You can watch David Farnsworth's presentation by visiting

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leadingsaints.org/fourteen.

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There, you can gain free access for fourteen

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days to the Teaching Saints virtual library, where

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you'll find hours and hours of content to

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help you be a better prepared Sunday teacher.

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Hey. Hey. If you're a newbie to Leading

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Saints, it's important that you know what is

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this Leading Saints thing. Well, Leading Saints is

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a nonprofit organization

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dedicated to helping Latter day Saints be better

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prepared to lead. And the way we do

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that is through content creation. So we have

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this phenomenal podcast. We have a newsletter. We

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have virtual conferences, so much more. And articles

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on our website. I mean, I could go

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on and on. Right? And we encourage you

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to, jump in, check out Leading saints, go

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to the search bar at leadingsaints.org

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and type in some topics and see what

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pops up. We're just glad you're here to

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join us.

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I'm again excited to welcome back Gary Miller

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onto the leading saints podcast. I interviewed Gary

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back in August of twenty twenty one,

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and it's been a few years. He's been

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on a journey. If you're not familiar with

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Gary Miller story, I will definitely link to

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that original

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episode where we get into it and his

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stories online here and there. But Gary was

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a fundamentalist Baptist minister who

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was used to preaching, you know, hellfire damnation

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every year in his church that he planted.

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And then, through all sorts of events ended

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up being coming a member of the church

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of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints. And

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that was five years ago since that happened.

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And he has been on quite a journey

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of not necessarily a conversion of

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theology or belief, which did happen, you know,

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early on in his journey, but a conversion

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of culture of figuring our people out and

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our systems, our processes, how to do the

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membership thing. And, obviously led him to a

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path after four years of going through the

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temple, being sealed to a spouse. And,

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so to hear him talk about the temple

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and how he frames it and the messaging

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that really propelled him to the house of

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the Lord is a really inspiring and remarkable.

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And Gary and I were friends. And so

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this is more of a view just listening

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in on a conversation between two friends discussing

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different dynamics and struggles and blessings and the

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good, the bad, the ugly. And, I think

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you'll as always benefit from Gary. I hope

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to have him on more regularly

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and, to share some of our conversations. I

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need it has his own podcast feeds, a

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couple of them that we'll link to, which

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if you need more Gary Miller than his

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preaching, there's definitely out there for you. So

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let's get into it. Let's return back to

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our conversation

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with me and Gary Miller.

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Alright. Nobody said I could do it, but

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I got Gary Miller back in the leading

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Zanes world. How are you, Gary?

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I'm doing great. We need to find out

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who those people are. I know. I

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know. It's good to see you, man. We

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were just talking in the preshow that I

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was thrilled to just be back on, you

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know, live camera talking to your face instead

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of just texting. So nice to see you.

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I know it for sure. Now over the

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last since our first interview, I don't know.

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That was probably,

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I don't know, three years ago or something.

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I don't know. I should probably look it

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up for. Ever since then, I get emails

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from time to time. I'd say once or

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twice a year. Hey. What happened to that

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Gary guy?

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That's right. You know, what what's his story?

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Where's he ended up? Right? Because you you've

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had some great online

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content that you produce, and you've been active

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on social media here and there. But, you

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know, there's a season for all things. And

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so maybe just bring people up to speed.

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Like, what have you been up to? What's

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life like? Well, again, thanks for having me,

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first of all. Appreciate it. Yeah. So

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life is good. And,

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yes, I think a a common question that

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I get sometimes still

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with it'll come in the mailbox of either

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one of my podcasts now is, you know,

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well, are you still a member of the

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church? I'm like, well,

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I'm trying to figure out, like, what did

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I signal that gave you the impression that

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I wasn't? But, yes, that was still still

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obviously

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part of the church

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and very actively so.

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My wife and our and our family,

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has been through, like anybody else, a journey

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of our own, and it's it's ran at

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different paces spiritually throughout the last five years.

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We just celebrated

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our five year anniversary in the church about

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three days ago. Oh, wow.

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That's good. We crossed over half a decade

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officially. That sounds like legit when you say

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it that way. But,

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so

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but, no, we've we've certainly recently, I would

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say in the last, you know, probably four

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or five months,

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have been,

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you know, very involved and very active. And

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that's the sort of nature of our callings

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now and stuff like that. But, really, I

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I think

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our family is very

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solid and happy. I I still have, for

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those that don't remember, I have three daughters

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and a and a son. So basically, my

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life is controlled chaos most of the time,

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and

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none of that has changed. So, yeah, I'm

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just obviously, man, come on. It's the same

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stuff. I'm excited about Jesus. I talk about

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him all the time on, you know, two

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different podcasts and two kind of different niches

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and and always excited to talk to others

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who are into the same thing. So, yeah,

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I think it's good, man. That's great. That's

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awesome. So, obviously, we've had, like you know,

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we've been in touch here and there, you

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know, at various points and had phone calls.

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Some are kinda

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interesting phone calls, like, of struggle. I think

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a lot of people, we like to, you

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know, make a conversion process into our faith,

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like a story book. Right? You you get

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baptized, there's a moment and you get the

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baptism pictures and then, you know, you get

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a calling, you get the priesthood and then

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you, you know, a year later you're going

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through the temple and it's just like, isn't

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this awesome? Right? And we can make the

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the perfect, three minute video online of that.

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But there's a sometimes it just gets messy,

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especially someone with your background who has led

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churches and been involved on those top levels.

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Right? And then suddenly, you're trying to navigate

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this new path that maybe isn't as familiar

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to you. Right? I mean, how how would

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you describe just that journey of of ups

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and downs? I think one of the things

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I found myself telling Crystal,

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my wife, I you know, many times in

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the last five years was

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sometimes I thought our background was a real

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detriment.

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You know, it didn't really help. But some

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of the time, because you're coming from a,

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in many cases, a very different world.

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And Mhmm. I think probably more the differences

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are more sort of cultural, and they're also

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more in language.

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Just the way

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you talk about the faith. Yeah. Similar words,

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often very different definitions at times. And so

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that process of learning

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a new language of how we talk about

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faith, the new system of it, a new

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culture of it in terms of how it

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gathers, how it worships, what it looks like,

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sounds like, that kind of thing.

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Certainly,

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that has had its moments over the years

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where it's it's all the things that we

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would expect. There's been great moments. There's been

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plenty of frustrating ones, and there's been a

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lot of stuff that's, I think, been just

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kinda meh. Right? I think what you said

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about conversion stories conversion stories drive me a

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little bonkers.

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I I'm not really a fan of them

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because they're again, I love what you said

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about the three minute clip. I mean, there's

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so much stuff on the cutting room floor

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that you're missing. Yeah. And so it's easy

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to get sort of the cheap amens from

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the crowd when you go, you know, five

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years ago. I am a I was an

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independent fundamental baptist who became a Latter day

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Saint. Everybody's like, yay. You know, and and

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that's good, and I'm with it. But at

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the same time, there's so much that goes

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on behind the scenes in that when you're

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trying to kind of understand,

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okay, so now you're a Latter day Saint.

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Now what? You know, what does that mean?

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And how do you kinda walk in and

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out of that week over week? So a

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lot of it, once it's to your back

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to your example, if you get the baptism

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pictures and you're you know, now you're there,

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I think so much of it was,

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okay. Now we're just in normal practice week

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over week, and that is

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often,

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that's not

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some thrilling

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super spiritual experience

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week over week. And it's also not dramatically

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negative

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or

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positive either. It just a lot of time,

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we'll just kinda ride the middle of the

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road, and you have some ups and you

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have some downs.

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The equilibrium

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status of that is just, you know, you're

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kinda just getting in the rhythm of doing

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this week over week. And I think it

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just takes time to figure that out. And,

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you know, I tell people all the time,

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you know, everybody's gonna kinda run this race

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at their own pace

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regardless of how much you want them. I

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mean, it took me four years and months

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to get into the door of a temple.

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Everybody's gonna run this at a different pace.

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I mean but

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God sorts it out, and that's not up

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for you and I to kinda control the

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gas. We just try to stay in the

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car long enough to get where we're going.

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He's gonna take it, and Yeah. We'll figure

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it out. Yeah. I'm curious, like, you know,

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as we talk about conversion and commitment, I

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am sort of

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realizing this, and correct me if I'm wrong,

264
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maybe in the general Christian world, but we

265
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have a different way of emphasizing in our

266
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faith. I actually just interviewed yesterday, which I

267
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think this will release before this episode, but

268
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I interviewed the rabbi of the Jewish rabbi

269
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that lives in Utah County. Right? The most

270
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Latter day Saint County probably in the church

271
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or BYU is. And and I asked him

272
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this question of, like because we have such

273
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a tradition of, like, standing and bearing a

274
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testimony or articulating our commitment to our faith

275
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or why we are are committed. And I

276
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sort of asked him that, like, why do

277
00:09:52,325 --> 00:09:54,884
you or how do you, you know, process

278
00:09:54,884 --> 00:09:56,565
that, like, your commitment? Why do you believe?

279
00:09:56,565 --> 00:09:58,289
And he sort of looked at me like,

280
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I don't really know what you're saying. And

281
00:09:59,889 --> 00:10:01,329
it was really telling. I don't think I

282
00:10:01,329 --> 00:10:03,730
fully understand the dynamic happening there, but we

283
00:10:03,730 --> 00:10:05,889
sort of have this, tradition or a culture

284
00:10:05,889 --> 00:10:08,129
of, like, tell us the moment you were

285
00:10:08,129 --> 00:10:10,784
in. And then then sure there's often a

286
00:10:10,784 --> 00:10:12,865
moment or there's often stories behind that of

287
00:10:12,865 --> 00:10:15,664
faith development and commitment, but then it kinda

288
00:10:15,664 --> 00:10:18,225
gets fuzzy when we're because that's where people

289
00:10:18,225 --> 00:10:20,144
are at. Like, so are you still you

290
00:10:20,144 --> 00:10:21,825
still in? You still at? Are you are

291
00:10:21,825 --> 00:10:23,345
you out? You're in? Or, like, where are

292
00:10:23,345 --> 00:10:25,184
you at? We we kinda make it very

293
00:10:25,184 --> 00:10:27,487
binary. I don't know. What comes to mind?

294
00:10:27,487 --> 00:10:29,697
We do make it binary. I mean, I

295
00:10:29,697 --> 00:10:32,184
I I think so an old mentor of

296
00:10:32,184 --> 00:10:34,394
mine used to tell the story about when

297
00:10:34,394 --> 00:10:36,604
he was ordained. So in the in the

298
00:10:36,604 --> 00:10:38,814
Baptist world, you get ordained. Normally, depending on

299
00:10:38,814 --> 00:10:41,024
the the leg of Baptist you're in, you

300
00:10:41,184 --> 00:10:43,105
go before, like, an elders board or a

301
00:10:43,105 --> 00:10:44,865
board that's gonna kind of, like, run you

302
00:10:44,865 --> 00:10:47,684
through the paces of basics of the faith.

303
00:10:47,825 --> 00:10:50,085
Are you not you don't hold any kind

304
00:10:50,305 --> 00:10:53,024
of theologically crazy views? And and one of

305
00:10:53,024 --> 00:10:54,625
the questions that they ask him, he shares

306
00:10:54,625 --> 00:10:55,950
a story and I love it. You know,

307
00:10:55,950 --> 00:10:57,550
they're like, well, when was the moment that

308
00:10:57,550 --> 00:11:00,129
you knew that, you know, you were saved?

309
00:11:00,750 --> 00:11:03,730
And I love this. His answer was like,

310
00:11:03,790 --> 00:11:05,950
I'm not sure. I don't know if there

311
00:11:05,950 --> 00:11:06,769
was a moment.

312
00:11:07,309 --> 00:11:09,809
I'm literally working on this thing every day.

313
00:11:10,115 --> 00:11:12,454
So I I think that for me, when

314
00:11:12,674 --> 00:11:14,274
when I've had people say things to me

315
00:11:14,274 --> 00:11:16,774
about it or when we talk about

316
00:11:17,235 --> 00:11:17,735
conversion

317
00:11:18,274 --> 00:11:20,134
I think interestingly enough in our tradition,

318
00:11:20,674 --> 00:11:22,995
clearly, our leaders talk about conversion being an

319
00:11:22,995 --> 00:11:24,134
ongoing process,

320
00:11:24,610 --> 00:11:26,610
yet often members talk about it as this

321
00:11:26,610 --> 00:11:28,450
one time event. I think that's one of

322
00:11:28,450 --> 00:11:29,809
the one of those gaps that is a

323
00:11:29,809 --> 00:11:31,190
bit puzzling. But

324
00:11:31,570 --> 00:11:33,350
I am someone that thinks

325
00:11:33,809 --> 00:11:35,429
every morning I wake up,

326
00:11:35,730 --> 00:11:38,210
I'm trying to figure out, alright, how do

327
00:11:38,210 --> 00:11:40,149
I do this thing a little bit better

328
00:11:40,415 --> 00:11:41,315
than I did it yesterday?

329
00:11:42,254 --> 00:11:44,415
But I I think I don't ever

330
00:11:45,215 --> 00:11:47,695
I'm never under the and I this might

331
00:11:47,695 --> 00:11:49,295
sound strong, but I I'm never under the

332
00:11:49,295 --> 00:11:52,274
delusion that I found it. I'm always looking

333
00:11:52,769 --> 00:11:54,529
because as long as I'm looking, that means

334
00:11:54,529 --> 00:11:56,290
out of my mind's open, my heart's open,

335
00:11:56,290 --> 00:11:58,149
my eyes are open, my ears are open.

336
00:11:58,450 --> 00:12:01,410
Arrival theology concerns me. You know? So, yep,

337
00:12:01,410 --> 00:12:03,170
I've arrived. Yep. We've got it. We've got

338
00:12:03,170 --> 00:12:04,930
all the stuff. We've figured it out. I

339
00:12:04,930 --> 00:12:07,404
mean, that seems dangerously on the on the

340
00:12:07,404 --> 00:12:09,325
edge of pride and and all kinds of

341
00:12:09,325 --> 00:12:11,325
stuff happens from there. And then as a

342
00:12:11,325 --> 00:12:13,085
result, what you just said, then we sort

343
00:12:13,085 --> 00:12:15,164
of rack and stack ourselves and everybody else's

344
00:12:15,164 --> 00:12:16,924
the ins and the outs. And then we

345
00:12:16,924 --> 00:12:19,245
we sort of make weird distinctions, and we

346
00:12:19,245 --> 00:12:21,004
go, well, if someone's sitting in that pew

347
00:12:21,004 --> 00:12:22,850
every Sunday, well, they're active.

348
00:12:23,230 --> 00:12:25,470
No. They're not. That's attendance. That has nothing

349
00:12:25,470 --> 00:12:26,850
to do with being active

350
00:12:27,149 --> 00:12:29,649
versus also, you know, if someone's not there,

351
00:12:29,789 --> 00:12:31,629
we make these assumptions like, are they still

352
00:12:31,629 --> 00:12:33,549
in? Like, this in and out stuff, I

353
00:12:33,549 --> 00:12:35,845
think, is often antithetical to the gospel. I

354
00:12:35,845 --> 00:12:37,365
don't the gospel I read is not so

355
00:12:37,365 --> 00:12:39,125
much an ins and outs thing as it

356
00:12:39,125 --> 00:12:40,965
is a all of us are in this

357
00:12:40,965 --> 00:12:43,284
thing together. We're on different points in the

358
00:12:43,284 --> 00:12:45,445
journey, and give it long enough, you'll have

359
00:12:45,445 --> 00:12:47,625
high moments and low moments and middle moments.

360
00:12:48,085 --> 00:12:48,825
And so

361
00:12:49,279 --> 00:12:51,200
I conversion is a funny thing. I I

362
00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,360
get in our world of of reels and

363
00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:55,320
sixty second TikToks that, you know, you want

364
00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,779
a story that kinda hits, and I understand

365
00:12:58,000 --> 00:12:59,920
the utility in that from a marketing and

366
00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:00,899
messaging standpoint.

367
00:13:01,205 --> 00:13:03,445
But, again, there's so much more to it

368
00:13:03,445 --> 00:13:05,684
than just, you know one day I had

369
00:13:05,684 --> 00:13:07,764
it and I just knew that, you know,

370
00:13:07,764 --> 00:13:09,365
this was true or this or the other

371
00:13:09,365 --> 00:13:11,764
thing. I'm waking up every day hoping that

372
00:13:11,764 --> 00:13:14,404
I can understand why it is true or

373
00:13:14,404 --> 00:13:16,929
why it is working, but I I never

374
00:13:16,929 --> 00:13:19,669
get the sense that I found it. Yeah.

375
00:13:19,809 --> 00:13:23,090
No. I'm just, from my perception and the

376
00:13:23,090 --> 00:13:25,090
phone calls we've had and the connections and

377
00:13:25,090 --> 00:13:28,615
conversations we've we've had, I've never and correct

378
00:13:28,615 --> 00:13:29,975
me if I'm wrong, but I've never since

379
00:13:29,975 --> 00:13:31,894
this struggle as far as the conversion, you

380
00:13:31,894 --> 00:13:33,735
know, going back to that term, the conversion

381
00:13:33,735 --> 00:13:35,995
with the theology or the doctrine

382
00:13:36,295 --> 00:13:37,995
or even the book of Mormon,

383
00:13:38,375 --> 00:13:40,075
but there was definitely a

384
00:13:40,455 --> 00:13:42,875
struggle with the conversion to the culture. Right.

385
00:13:43,014 --> 00:13:43,470
Which

386
00:13:43,949 --> 00:13:46,449
we're really good at this. Not converted. So

387
00:13:46,750 --> 00:13:48,350
in that sense And and I wanna go

388
00:13:48,350 --> 00:13:50,029
there. Like, so I'm curious if we got

389
00:13:50,029 --> 00:13:51,789
a time machine, went back to, you know,

390
00:13:51,789 --> 00:13:54,350
Gary on year one or, you know, the

391
00:13:54,350 --> 00:13:57,134
first six months. And we're because, unfortunately, but

392
00:13:57,134 --> 00:13:58,735
fortunately, because I because I love hearing your

393
00:13:58,735 --> 00:14:00,254
story. I loved how you shared it so

394
00:14:00,254 --> 00:14:02,174
much. You even came on this podcast and

395
00:14:02,174 --> 00:14:03,774
shared a little bit. Like, you were kind

396
00:14:03,774 --> 00:14:05,934
of given celebrity status for a a blip

397
00:14:05,934 --> 00:14:08,034
of time. Mhmm. And that maybe

398
00:14:08,414 --> 00:14:08,914
really

399
00:14:09,339 --> 00:14:11,820
changed the experience and made it very unique

400
00:14:11,820 --> 00:14:13,820
than maybe other people's journey. So if you're

401
00:14:13,820 --> 00:14:15,899
to go back in time just to with

402
00:14:15,899 --> 00:14:17,659
the hindsight that you have and the the

403
00:14:17,659 --> 00:14:19,259
wisdom you have, like, what would you tell

404
00:14:19,259 --> 00:14:21,419
yourself in those first six months of of

405
00:14:21,419 --> 00:14:23,894
converting to this faith? Don't do

406
00:14:24,554 --> 00:14:25,054
podcasts.

407
00:14:25,714 --> 00:14:28,835
That's number one. Don't post anything about it.

408
00:14:28,835 --> 00:14:31,394
Don't say anything about it. Don't record about

409
00:14:31,394 --> 00:14:32,534
it. If you do,

410
00:14:32,914 --> 00:14:34,674
save it in a folder in Google Drive

411
00:14:34,674 --> 00:14:36,560
and about six to twelve months later, then

412
00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:37,920
go ahead and put it all up. If

413
00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:39,440
you relisten to it and you're happy with

414
00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,279
it, that's fair game. I think this goes

415
00:14:41,279 --> 00:14:43,200
back what is it? The the sort of

416
00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:43,700
famous

417
00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,800
reformed apologist James White was the first guy

418
00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:48,639
ever heard talk about the cage stage. Have

419
00:14:48,639 --> 00:14:49,840
you ever talked to you about the cage

420
00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,394
stage? So that I don't think so. Yeah.

421
00:14:52,394 --> 00:14:53,754
The so the cage stage is when you

422
00:14:53,754 --> 00:14:56,394
first in their community, when you first get

423
00:14:56,394 --> 00:14:59,195
a hold of proper reform doctrine like TULIP,

424
00:14:59,195 --> 00:15:02,075
like, you know, total depravity, unconditional election, whatever.

425
00:15:02,075 --> 00:15:04,429
And you you first learn that stuff, you

426
00:15:04,429 --> 00:15:05,950
tend to wanna go out and try to

427
00:15:05,950 --> 00:15:08,350
blast it all over everybody all the time.

428
00:15:08,350 --> 00:15:10,990
Right? Just tell the world. And you're so

429
00:15:10,990 --> 00:15:13,629
new that you're well intentioned, but you can

430
00:15:13,629 --> 00:15:15,870
kinda hurt yourself or hurt others or mess

431
00:15:15,870 --> 00:15:18,029
up the whole process because you're talking too

432
00:15:18,029 --> 00:15:20,845
soon, and it's kind of mucking everything up.

433
00:15:20,845 --> 00:15:22,845
And so I would say in my case,

434
00:15:22,845 --> 00:15:25,004
even though I think the reason I started

435
00:15:25,004 --> 00:15:27,565
recording early was because I came from a

436
00:15:27,565 --> 00:15:29,485
cadence of preaching three times a week, and

437
00:15:29,485 --> 00:15:30,925
I needed to teach. Like, I didn't know

438
00:15:30,925 --> 00:15:32,639
what it was like to not. Yeah. Like,

439
00:15:32,639 --> 00:15:34,800
this whole sit in the back, and you

440
00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:36,559
might get called on once every six months

441
00:15:36,559 --> 00:15:38,320
or something. Like, what is that? Like, I'm

442
00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,360
I'm used to Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday

443
00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,475
night, you're preaching fifty minutes a hit, like,

444
00:15:44,714 --> 00:15:45,214
every

445
00:15:45,674 --> 00:15:47,674
week, month over month. And so I was

446
00:15:47,674 --> 00:15:50,095
just used to that. So coming into the

447
00:15:50,235 --> 00:15:53,034
podcast space right away was really part of

448
00:15:53,034 --> 00:15:54,794
it was self preservation because I needed to

449
00:15:54,794 --> 00:15:56,899
keep my chops up. I mean, you you

450
00:15:56,899 --> 00:15:58,179
don't use it, you lose it. And so

451
00:15:58,179 --> 00:15:59,540
I wanted to make sure that I kept

452
00:15:59,540 --> 00:16:01,860
my preaching cadence up. But early on, I

453
00:16:01,860 --> 00:16:02,600
would say,

454
00:16:03,059 --> 00:16:04,980
stay out of the side of it that

455
00:16:04,980 --> 00:16:05,480
is,

456
00:16:06,019 --> 00:16:07,879
hey. We got this guy about his conversion

457
00:16:07,940 --> 00:16:08,440
story.

458
00:16:08,820 --> 00:16:11,605
Because as well intentioned as that is and

459
00:16:11,605 --> 00:16:13,445
I believe every show I was on and

460
00:16:13,445 --> 00:16:15,125
interviewed on, especially this one, you know I

461
00:16:15,125 --> 00:16:16,485
love your stuff, so that's easy. Yeah. Yeah.

462
00:16:16,485 --> 00:16:18,985
But, like, I think everyone was well intentioned,

463
00:16:19,044 --> 00:16:19,865
but I think

464
00:16:20,325 --> 00:16:21,065
it was

465
00:16:21,684 --> 00:16:22,184
makes

466
00:16:22,565 --> 00:16:24,884
the focus of what's happening on the wrong

467
00:16:24,884 --> 00:16:25,384
thing

468
00:16:25,764 --> 00:16:28,440
in some ways. And I just I think

469
00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,980
that is a ultimately, a pretty deeply personal

470
00:16:32,919 --> 00:16:35,659
experience that probably needs more solitude,

471
00:16:36,039 --> 00:16:37,340
reflection, and contemplation,

472
00:16:37,879 --> 00:16:38,620
and less

473
00:16:39,159 --> 00:16:39,659
syndication

474
00:16:40,039 --> 00:16:41,500
sharing and retweeting.

475
00:16:41,884 --> 00:16:43,884
You know? I Yeah. I think that's a

476
00:16:43,884 --> 00:16:45,664
that's a thing that you and, also,

477
00:16:46,125 --> 00:16:48,284
I've said it whether you were coming this

478
00:16:48,284 --> 00:16:50,365
way into, like, becoming a Latter day Saint

479
00:16:50,365 --> 00:16:53,164
or you were becoming a traditional Latin mass

480
00:16:53,164 --> 00:16:56,070
Catholic, whatever, like, you're gonna have to take

481
00:16:56,070 --> 00:16:58,070
some time to learn what that means to

482
00:16:58,070 --> 00:17:00,309
be that week over week. And so it's

483
00:17:00,309 --> 00:17:02,230
very hard and you you just have to

484
00:17:02,230 --> 00:17:03,590
kinda it's not that you need to sit

485
00:17:03,590 --> 00:17:05,109
in silence, but I I do think you

486
00:17:05,109 --> 00:17:06,950
need to you just kinda have to learn

487
00:17:06,950 --> 00:17:09,194
the rhythm so that you can assess it

488
00:17:09,274 --> 00:17:10,734
a little bit more accurately.

489
00:17:11,274 --> 00:17:13,994
I think early on, I was certainly more

490
00:17:13,994 --> 00:17:16,315
critical of some of the cultural stuff. I

491
00:17:16,315 --> 00:17:18,954
still have plenty of criticism about that, but

492
00:17:18,954 --> 00:17:21,994
I reserve that for different settings and for

493
00:17:21,994 --> 00:17:23,920
different kind of things. I reserve that for

494
00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:25,920
conversations with my wife or the secret place

495
00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:27,539
of prayer or reflection,

496
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,160
and then I start trying to figure out

497
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:32,240
what is the little difference or little wave

498
00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,100
that I can make in it positively.

499
00:17:34,804 --> 00:17:36,085
Part of it, I think, is some weird

500
00:17:36,085 --> 00:17:37,845
form of penance, frankly, that I have to

501
00:17:37,845 --> 00:17:39,444
deal with some of that stuff that drives

502
00:17:39,444 --> 00:17:41,204
me crazy, and somehow I've gotta navigate it

503
00:17:41,204 --> 00:17:43,845
without losing my mind. But, yeah, that's what

504
00:17:43,845 --> 00:17:45,444
I think. Early on, I what would I

505
00:17:45,444 --> 00:17:47,865
do differently? I would be a little quieter

506
00:17:48,164 --> 00:17:48,664
early

507
00:17:49,099 --> 00:17:51,359
to kind of assess and let it start

508
00:17:51,420 --> 00:17:53,039
sinking in what's happening

509
00:17:53,500 --> 00:17:55,339
because there's gonna be so much new that's

510
00:17:55,339 --> 00:17:57,580
going on. And part of that new is

511
00:17:57,580 --> 00:17:59,339
great, part of that new is weird, part

512
00:17:59,339 --> 00:18:01,599
of the new is just like, what? And

513
00:18:01,795 --> 00:18:05,575
I think those reactions, those experiences are better

514
00:18:05,714 --> 00:18:07,875
dealt with in the classroom of silence than

515
00:18:07,875 --> 00:18:10,914
in the echo chamber noise capital of social

516
00:18:10,914 --> 00:18:11,894
media or podcast.

517
00:18:12,515 --> 00:18:15,015
Yeah. And it's tricky because I would imagine

518
00:18:15,154 --> 00:18:17,829
on one side, you have the community that

519
00:18:17,829 --> 00:18:19,589
sort of feels like you're abandoning them or

520
00:18:19,589 --> 00:18:21,450
you're leaving them. Right. You're Baptist,

521
00:18:21,829 --> 00:18:24,390
traditional Christian community. And so don't want to

522
00:18:24,390 --> 00:18:26,309
keep them in the dark about what's happening,

523
00:18:26,309 --> 00:18:26,809
but,

524
00:18:27,109 --> 00:18:28,630
and then you have this new faith you're

525
00:18:28,630 --> 00:18:30,414
coming into where you're excited about. You wanna

526
00:18:30,414 --> 00:18:32,515
learn, you wanna make connections. And

527
00:18:33,055 --> 00:18:34,894
but what I'm picking up, what you're saying

528
00:18:34,894 --> 00:18:36,994
is like making it a little bit quieter

529
00:18:37,134 --> 00:18:38,914
or more private of an experience

530
00:18:39,455 --> 00:18:41,795
than I don't know. I mean,

531
00:18:42,099 --> 00:18:44,119
because I guess you don't wanna,

532
00:18:44,819 --> 00:18:46,819
you know, fool the people who who think

533
00:18:46,819 --> 00:18:48,740
you're still just, you know, going to the

534
00:18:48,740 --> 00:18:51,319
Baptist church and you're doing the thing. Right?

535
00:18:51,619 --> 00:18:53,859
So it's tricky though. Right? Because you can't

536
00:18:54,019 --> 00:18:55,700
it needs to be somewhat of a private,

537
00:18:55,700 --> 00:18:57,240
you know, paced experience.

538
00:18:57,755 --> 00:19:00,154
Yeah. I I think you everybody's gonna have

539
00:19:00,154 --> 00:19:02,335
to kinda find their own balance with that.

540
00:19:02,394 --> 00:19:02,894
And

541
00:19:03,195 --> 00:19:04,795
I don't think about it as much now

542
00:19:04,795 --> 00:19:06,414
because, obviously, I've got more

543
00:19:06,715 --> 00:19:08,475
foundation under me now after five years of

544
00:19:08,475 --> 00:19:10,315
this thing, and I think I've kind of

545
00:19:10,315 --> 00:19:12,769
at least got a basic sense of, you

546
00:19:12,769 --> 00:19:14,769
know, where to stand and where to sit

547
00:19:14,769 --> 00:19:15,269
and,

548
00:19:15,809 --> 00:19:17,329
you know, who's who and what's what. You

549
00:19:17,329 --> 00:19:18,849
know, I I've gotten most of the terms

550
00:19:18,849 --> 00:19:19,589
down. Right?

551
00:19:19,970 --> 00:19:22,769
But, yeah, I I just as I reflect

552
00:19:22,769 --> 00:19:25,089
back on it as if I'm being sort

553
00:19:25,089 --> 00:19:26,755
of in my trying to be in my

554
00:19:26,755 --> 00:19:27,494
best thinking,

555
00:19:27,954 --> 00:19:29,974
I would just say slow down

556
00:19:30,355 --> 00:19:32,674
and really kinda take all that in. I

557
00:19:32,674 --> 00:19:34,515
would also say that to anybody who's in

558
00:19:34,515 --> 00:19:36,694
investigator mode. I know that's counterintuitive

559
00:19:37,075 --> 00:19:38,855
advice. I would say slow down.

560
00:19:39,220 --> 00:19:41,140
You know, there's a natural inertia and a

561
00:19:41,140 --> 00:19:43,140
real seduction to kinda let's go, go, go,

562
00:19:43,140 --> 00:19:43,799
go, go.

563
00:19:44,180 --> 00:19:46,420
I think that the answer is to slow

564
00:19:46,420 --> 00:19:47,240
things down,

565
00:19:47,700 --> 00:19:49,320
not to delay or not

566
00:19:49,779 --> 00:19:52,180
to dabble, but I think to kind of

567
00:19:52,180 --> 00:19:53,880
take it in and be intentional.

568
00:19:54,684 --> 00:19:56,924
One of my concerns in my own life

569
00:19:56,924 --> 00:19:59,904
is that I I'm so kind of chronically

570
00:20:00,365 --> 00:20:02,445
fast moving and high strung and, you know,

571
00:20:02,445 --> 00:20:04,765
kind of always at it that I'm not

572
00:20:04,765 --> 00:20:06,720
as intentional as I would like to be.

573
00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,279
And I think in my best moments, I'm

574
00:20:09,279 --> 00:20:12,159
intentional. In my worst moments, I'm fast. Fast

575
00:20:12,159 --> 00:20:14,980
to react, fast to judge, fast to respond,

576
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,759
fast to, you know, whatever. And and so,

577
00:20:17,759 --> 00:20:19,519
yeah, in this conversion thing and how you

578
00:20:19,519 --> 00:20:21,625
do that early, I'm not suggesting we all

579
00:20:21,625 --> 00:20:23,305
need to go be monastics and, like, live

580
00:20:23,305 --> 00:20:25,625
out in a cabin and, you know, churn

581
00:20:25,625 --> 00:20:27,865
butter and, you know, go on silent retreats

582
00:20:27,865 --> 00:20:30,184
for months. But I do think there's something

583
00:20:30,184 --> 00:20:30,684
to

584
00:20:31,065 --> 00:20:32,664
let me just learn what it means to

585
00:20:32,664 --> 00:20:34,184
be part of this thing for better or

586
00:20:34,184 --> 00:20:37,019
worse. There's gonna be both. And then let

587
00:20:37,019 --> 00:20:39,419
me take stock six to twelve months later,

588
00:20:39,419 --> 00:20:41,019
and those are arbitrary numbers. I get it.

589
00:20:41,019 --> 00:20:42,619
But, you know, like, let me take some

590
00:20:42,619 --> 00:20:44,639
stock later and go, okay. Where are we?

591
00:20:44,700 --> 00:20:46,859
Alright. How do I feel about this? And

592
00:20:46,859 --> 00:20:49,075
kinda move on from there. Yeah. You know,

593
00:20:49,075 --> 00:20:50,195
the word that stood out to me as

594
00:20:50,195 --> 00:20:51,715
you you were talking there is is this

595
00:20:51,715 --> 00:20:54,275
concept of having a foundation where you had

596
00:20:54,275 --> 00:20:56,355
the conversion early on, but there maybe wasn't

597
00:20:56,355 --> 00:20:58,295
a foundation to really drill into.

598
00:20:58,674 --> 00:21:00,755
And so there's a lot maybe a lot

599
00:21:00,755 --> 00:21:02,994
of, whiplash going on. Like, wait a minute.

600
00:21:02,994 --> 00:21:04,434
What just happened? And you want me to

601
00:21:04,515 --> 00:21:06,490
I don't get it. Like and Yeah. You

602
00:21:06,490 --> 00:21:08,570
still have to sort of be perceived as,

603
00:21:08,570 --> 00:21:10,170
like, no. But you're in now. So this

604
00:21:10,170 --> 00:21:11,609
is should be you shouldn't have a problem

605
00:21:11,609 --> 00:21:13,529
with this. Right? So We should stop the

606
00:21:13,529 --> 00:21:15,690
notion that, oh, you're in now. So we

607
00:21:15,690 --> 00:21:17,210
believe all this stuff. Right? And we just

608
00:21:17,210 --> 00:21:19,849
not know that Yeah. I'm in now means

609
00:21:19,849 --> 00:21:23,204
that whatever in means. I don't even know

610
00:21:23,204 --> 00:21:24,884
what that means. I mean, that's so subjective,

611
00:21:24,884 --> 00:21:27,144
but people are gonna pick this stuff up

612
00:21:27,204 --> 00:21:29,044
at different paces. And the notion that there's

613
00:21:29,044 --> 00:21:30,325
any of us that are sitting here and

614
00:21:30,325 --> 00:21:32,549
go, yep. Oh, I've got it now. Like,

615
00:21:32,630 --> 00:21:34,230
all of it? Really? You've got all of

616
00:21:34,230 --> 00:21:35,670
it, and you love all of it, and

617
00:21:35,670 --> 00:21:38,309
you believe all of it? That's crazy. No.

618
00:21:38,309 --> 00:21:40,869
You don't. Be more reflective. Be more honest

619
00:21:40,869 --> 00:21:42,630
and say, no. There's a bunch of things

620
00:21:42,630 --> 00:21:44,070
I do believe. There's some things that I'll

621
00:21:44,070 --> 00:21:46,890
put on the the shelf of eventually, hopefully.

622
00:21:47,134 --> 00:21:48,335
And then there's some stuff that you go,

623
00:21:48,335 --> 00:21:50,015
no. I just I don't buy that, but

624
00:21:50,015 --> 00:21:52,015
I've got enough over here in the bank

625
00:21:52,015 --> 00:21:53,394
account balance of belief

626
00:21:53,775 --> 00:21:55,295
that it's bigger than the stuff that I

627
00:21:55,295 --> 00:21:56,894
go. I just don't buy that. There are

628
00:21:56,894 --> 00:21:58,255
things that I don't buy. I mean, I

629
00:21:58,255 --> 00:21:59,934
still don't sign off on, and and I

630
00:21:59,934 --> 00:22:03,119
haven't been particularly convinced theologically or otherwise to

631
00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:04,900
go, yeah. That's oh. Amen.

632
00:22:05,279 --> 00:22:07,440
But they're not so many or big that

633
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,400
it stops me from continuing to progress. And

634
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,080
I think that's something all of us can

635
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:13,440
kinda reflect on. Sorry. I didn't mean to

636
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:14,559
step on you there. I just No. That's

637
00:22:14,559 --> 00:22:16,000
great. And that's what I was getting after.

638
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:17,634
I'm just curious if they're, like, when you

639
00:22:17,634 --> 00:22:18,855
talk about that foundation

640
00:22:19,795 --> 00:22:22,194
or, like, maybe there's an a specific example

641
00:22:22,194 --> 00:22:24,115
of, like, that journey of, like, early on,

642
00:22:24,115 --> 00:22:25,714
you were like, man, I I have a

643
00:22:25,714 --> 00:22:27,154
hard time sitting with this or

644
00:22:27,875 --> 00:22:29,554
but now it's sort of like I'm I've

645
00:22:29,554 --> 00:22:31,795
gotten there. You know? Does anything specific come

646
00:22:31,795 --> 00:22:34,190
to mind that you'd wanna share? Well, I

647
00:22:34,509 --> 00:22:36,190
naturally, the first thing that comes to mind

648
00:22:36,190 --> 00:22:38,430
is any and all things temple, which, I

649
00:22:38,430 --> 00:22:39,630
mean, I don't wanna get to get on

650
00:22:39,630 --> 00:22:41,309
a big whole conversation about that. That's not

651
00:22:41,309 --> 00:22:43,309
the purpose of this. But I I think

652
00:22:43,309 --> 00:22:46,369
that what frustrated me for the longest time,

653
00:22:46,990 --> 00:22:48,930
early in the beginning of it, it was

654
00:22:49,195 --> 00:22:51,195
I couldn't make scriptural sense out of what

655
00:22:51,195 --> 00:22:53,695
these folks were talking about because I'm going

656
00:22:53,755 --> 00:22:55,115
chapter and verse people. I mean, I'm an

657
00:22:55,115 --> 00:22:57,195
I'm an independent fundamental baptist guy. Right? So

658
00:22:57,195 --> 00:22:58,955
we're chapter and verse on everything. It's very

659
00:22:58,955 --> 00:23:01,035
simple. Like Yeah. Chapter and verse. And they're

660
00:23:01,035 --> 00:23:02,595
like, well, you know, and I was getting

661
00:23:02,595 --> 00:23:03,535
a lot of ish.

662
00:23:03,910 --> 00:23:06,250
And then so that was ish was frustrating.

663
00:23:06,630 --> 00:23:08,490
Yeah. Then we moved from

664
00:23:08,789 --> 00:23:12,250
ish to the messaging was often kind of

665
00:23:12,710 --> 00:23:15,190
mysterious and woo. Right? So it was like,

666
00:23:15,190 --> 00:23:16,549
you know, when I go to the temple,

667
00:23:16,549 --> 00:23:18,265
I just feel, and there's a lot of

668
00:23:18,265 --> 00:23:20,664
feeling talk. And I'm like, okay. I have

669
00:23:20,664 --> 00:23:22,984
no doubt that you feel things, but this

670
00:23:22,984 --> 00:23:24,045
is a very large

671
00:23:24,424 --> 00:23:26,184
sort of chasm I'm trying to get across

672
00:23:26,184 --> 00:23:28,345
here, and feelings are not helping me get

673
00:23:28,345 --> 00:23:30,345
across the gap from where I'm going to

674
00:23:30,345 --> 00:23:32,070
where we wanna go. And

675
00:23:32,529 --> 00:23:34,789
then it finally I think what

676
00:23:35,170 --> 00:23:37,170
really pushed that over the the top for

677
00:23:37,170 --> 00:23:37,910
us foundationally

678
00:23:38,210 --> 00:23:41,090
was I remember I finished teaching something. It

679
00:23:41,090 --> 00:23:42,369
might have been on a podcast or might

680
00:23:42,369 --> 00:23:44,130
have just been a family home evening with

681
00:23:44,130 --> 00:23:45,490
with the kids and stuff. And I I

682
00:23:45,490 --> 00:23:47,144
remember saying to Crystal,

683
00:23:47,684 --> 00:23:49,924
you know, there's this huge percentage of the

684
00:23:49,924 --> 00:23:52,164
Latter day Saint experience that revolves around the

685
00:23:52,164 --> 00:23:54,424
temple that we still haven't even been in.

686
00:23:54,565 --> 00:23:56,644
And it would seem to me, if we're

687
00:23:56,644 --> 00:23:59,384
gonna make a bunch of sort of larger

688
00:23:59,525 --> 00:24:02,424
judgments or have some opinions about all this,

689
00:24:02,539 --> 00:24:04,140
I think we need all the data before

690
00:24:04,140 --> 00:24:06,220
we can really effectively do that. Like, when

691
00:24:06,220 --> 00:24:07,819
we're missing a whole ton of data because

692
00:24:07,819 --> 00:24:09,339
we've never been to this place and done

693
00:24:09,339 --> 00:24:12,059
all this stuff. And so it was much

694
00:24:12,059 --> 00:24:14,000
more then then when I made it practical

695
00:24:14,140 --> 00:24:16,654
like that, I was like, okay. Well, this

696
00:24:16,734 --> 00:24:18,674
I can make some logical sense of this.

697
00:24:18,894 --> 00:24:19,474
And then

698
00:24:20,095 --> 00:24:21,855
we the best thing someone did for me,

699
00:24:21,855 --> 00:24:23,695
so take notes anybody who's listening to this.

700
00:24:23,695 --> 00:24:25,934
If you got anybody that's either hesitant about

701
00:24:25,934 --> 00:24:27,455
temple stuff or hasn't been in a while

702
00:24:27,455 --> 00:24:29,859
or whatever, Like, this was the best thing.

703
00:24:29,859 --> 00:24:33,700
Our our area 70 took myself and my

704
00:24:33,700 --> 00:24:35,700
wife and his wife, and we went up

705
00:24:35,700 --> 00:24:37,619
to visit the temple. Because I had a

706
00:24:37,700 --> 00:24:39,539
I mean, I we obviously had a recommend.

707
00:24:39,539 --> 00:24:40,660
We could go in, but I mean, it

708
00:24:40,660 --> 00:24:43,215
was, you know, they took us in and

709
00:24:43,215 --> 00:24:45,134
we got to meet the temple president. We

710
00:24:45,134 --> 00:24:47,634
got to walk around and see, like, baptistry

711
00:24:47,695 --> 00:24:49,695
and the basic inside and, like, of the,

712
00:24:49,695 --> 00:24:52,095
like, the the lobby and, like, where things

713
00:24:52,095 --> 00:24:54,115
were, the basic stuff that we could see.

714
00:24:54,509 --> 00:24:56,450
And just having those conversations

715
00:24:57,150 --> 00:24:59,390
in the building in a little chapel off

716
00:24:59,390 --> 00:25:00,769
from the, you know, entrance,

717
00:25:01,309 --> 00:25:02,609
I was like, okay.

718
00:25:03,309 --> 00:25:04,529
Alright. A,

719
00:25:04,990 --> 00:25:07,089
someone's talking to me and it's not mysticism.

720
00:25:08,065 --> 00:25:08,565
B,

721
00:25:09,025 --> 00:25:11,025
somebody briefed them because they use some scripture

722
00:25:11,025 --> 00:25:12,785
when they talk to me. I'm like, alright.

723
00:25:12,785 --> 00:25:13,285
Excellent.

724
00:25:13,744 --> 00:25:16,244
And Yeah. There was a personal connection.

725
00:25:17,025 --> 00:25:19,445
And so now when you can marry

726
00:25:20,289 --> 00:25:20,789
theology

727
00:25:21,170 --> 00:25:24,049
and the more, you know, the scripture dense

728
00:25:24,049 --> 00:25:25,509
stuff and heavy topics

729
00:25:26,130 --> 00:25:28,869
with a personal connection with real people,

730
00:25:29,250 --> 00:25:31,730
then I think you formed an interesting foundation

731
00:25:31,730 --> 00:25:33,554
that you can do business on. And what?

732
00:25:33,554 --> 00:25:35,214
A week later, we were in the temple,

733
00:25:35,355 --> 00:25:37,595
and two weeks after that, we were sealed

734
00:25:37,595 --> 00:25:39,774
and then, you know, off and running. So

735
00:25:40,394 --> 00:25:40,894
foundationally,

736
00:25:41,274 --> 00:25:43,534
I think for us, what worked

737
00:25:43,994 --> 00:25:45,755
as an example, you you asked for one

738
00:25:45,755 --> 00:25:47,294
with the temple is just simply

739
00:25:48,029 --> 00:25:50,670
marrying together all the scripture stuff that we're

740
00:25:50,670 --> 00:25:53,390
so passionate about, but getting connected with people

741
00:25:53,390 --> 00:25:55,970
that were just speaking in a normal way.

742
00:25:56,750 --> 00:25:58,269
I mean, you know this. I mean, you've

743
00:25:58,269 --> 00:25:59,630
been around the block a lot longer than

744
00:25:59,630 --> 00:26:01,184
I have in this world.

745
00:26:01,565 --> 00:26:03,744
People have a funny way of just talking

746
00:26:04,605 --> 00:26:06,684
really just making things weird when they don't

747
00:26:06,684 --> 00:26:07,884
need to be weird. Are you with me?

748
00:26:07,884 --> 00:26:09,505
Do you know what I'm talking about? Sure.

749
00:26:09,565 --> 00:26:10,464
Sure. Yeah. I mean,

750
00:26:10,765 --> 00:26:11,984
don't make it weird.

751
00:26:12,285 --> 00:26:14,445
You could just have a normal conversation with

752
00:26:14,445 --> 00:26:16,809
somebody and man, what is it? I mean,

753
00:26:16,809 --> 00:26:18,329
one of the apostles for crying out loud

754
00:26:18,329 --> 00:26:20,250
was, you know, talks about what is it,

755
00:26:20,250 --> 00:26:22,889
normal and natural ways, right, when you're extending

756
00:26:22,889 --> 00:26:23,389
invitations.

757
00:26:24,009 --> 00:26:26,329
Right? We talk about, you know, inviting people.

758
00:26:26,329 --> 00:26:29,289
Well, just talk normal. Just talk natural, like,

759
00:26:29,289 --> 00:26:32,174
regular stuff. That will help build that foundation

760
00:26:32,174 --> 00:26:34,194
and and overcomes a lot of obstacles.

761
00:26:34,494 --> 00:26:36,174
You know what? Scripture says love covers a

762
00:26:36,174 --> 00:26:38,575
multitude of sins. Right? Love covers a multitude

763
00:26:38,575 --> 00:26:40,255
of weird. Like, you don't have to make

764
00:26:40,255 --> 00:26:43,055
it weird. Just have those conversations. They create

765
00:26:43,055 --> 00:26:45,619
a foundation and off you go. Yeah. And

766
00:26:45,619 --> 00:26:47,460
does it now that I expect you to

767
00:26:47,460 --> 00:26:49,460
sort of unpack a sermon on on temple

768
00:26:49,460 --> 00:26:52,100
with scripture and verse, but, sure, curious, like,

769
00:26:52,100 --> 00:26:54,500
how like, what did did dig in unpack

770
00:26:54,500 --> 00:26:55,860
that a little bit more for us as

771
00:26:55,860 --> 00:26:57,860
far as what were some of those connections

772
00:26:57,860 --> 00:26:59,400
that sort of made the temple,

773
00:26:59,779 --> 00:27:01,984
like, maybe more of a logical thing to

774
00:27:01,984 --> 00:27:04,484
do rather than just some mystical thing or

775
00:27:04,704 --> 00:27:06,304
getting into a place where you're like, okay.

776
00:27:06,304 --> 00:27:08,784
I can lean in. Yeah. I well, I

777
00:27:08,784 --> 00:27:09,284
think

778
00:27:09,664 --> 00:27:11,204
so I spent a lot of time

779
00:27:11,664 --> 00:27:13,799
back in the day in my, you know,

780
00:27:13,799 --> 00:27:14,859
academic pursuits

781
00:27:15,319 --> 00:27:17,720
as a guy starting a church plant studying

782
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:18,539
the old testament,

783
00:27:18,919 --> 00:27:21,419
like, sort of formally. Right? And

784
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,200
if you spend any time doing that and

785
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,599
then you wanna talk about something like the

786
00:27:26,599 --> 00:27:27,099
endowment,

787
00:27:27,775 --> 00:27:29,694
you're gonna be able to put some things

788
00:27:29,694 --> 00:27:32,255
together there in a way that is not

789
00:27:32,255 --> 00:27:33,795
some giant breach.

790
00:27:34,255 --> 00:27:36,414
So I would just say that it started

791
00:27:36,414 --> 00:27:38,815
clicking for me. Again, I think it started

792
00:27:38,815 --> 00:27:41,454
with people having a normal conversation with me

793
00:27:41,454 --> 00:27:43,960
about it. And it's, like, it's my passion

794
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:45,559
now, like, one of my hidden passions, I

795
00:27:45,559 --> 00:27:46,940
guess. Like, if I ever

796
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,079
get the opportunity to talk to somebody who's

797
00:27:49,079 --> 00:27:51,000
never been, who's, like, working to or, like,

798
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:52,920
trying to figure out how to go, like,

799
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:54,839
my mission is just to talk normal about

800
00:27:54,839 --> 00:27:57,545
it. Like, as normal and as simple as

801
00:27:57,545 --> 00:27:59,785
I can, that works so much better. But,

802
00:27:59,785 --> 00:28:02,045
yeah, I think my background in old testament

803
00:28:02,105 --> 00:28:05,065
stuff, super helpful. And then the people that

804
00:28:05,065 --> 00:28:06,605
I was doing this with,

805
00:28:06,985 --> 00:28:09,769
I'm an amazing temple president who every other

806
00:28:09,769 --> 00:28:11,049
word out of his mouth when I was

807
00:28:11,049 --> 00:28:13,069
meeting with him in his office was Jesus.

808
00:28:13,450 --> 00:28:15,450
I'm like, we're home. Like, you make this

809
00:28:15,450 --> 00:28:16,890
thing about Jesus, I'll call him to the

810
00:28:16,890 --> 00:28:18,409
top of the building and just do whatever

811
00:28:18,409 --> 00:28:20,409
you want me to do. Like, if you

812
00:28:20,409 --> 00:28:22,190
make it about a bunch of other things,

813
00:28:22,384 --> 00:28:24,705
you're probably gonna lose me if it doesn't

814
00:28:24,705 --> 00:28:26,945
bring us home. And, I mean, look, I

815
00:28:26,945 --> 00:28:29,424
just recently taught this at our Saturday session

816
00:28:29,424 --> 00:28:31,585
at a state conference, you know. Look, the

817
00:28:31,585 --> 00:28:33,585
Book of Mormon is a Jesus book. The

818
00:28:33,585 --> 00:28:35,125
temple is a Jesus place.

819
00:28:35,505 --> 00:28:37,440
That's it. Like, you're like, well, what well,

820
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:38,880
what about that? I'm like, no. No. No.

821
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:40,559
No. No. That's it. What's the Book of

822
00:28:40,559 --> 00:28:42,480
Mormon? It's a Jesus book. What's the temple?

823
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,319
It's a Jesus place. If you get that

824
00:28:44,319 --> 00:28:46,799
straight, you're good. Yeah. Yeah. Each is their

825
00:28:46,799 --> 00:28:48,960
own testament of of Jesus Christ. Right? One

826
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:50,355
says it on the from the front of

827
00:28:50,355 --> 00:28:52,035
the book. The other says it outside the

828
00:28:52,035 --> 00:28:54,434
building. The holiness to the Lord. Right? That's

829
00:28:54,434 --> 00:28:56,914
it. Yeah. That's powerful. That's really good. And

830
00:28:56,914 --> 00:28:58,055
I think I remember

831
00:28:58,434 --> 00:28:59,095
my nephew

832
00:28:59,555 --> 00:29:01,714
going through, you know, before his mission and

833
00:29:01,714 --> 00:29:03,555
greeting him in the sluster room. And I

834
00:29:03,555 --> 00:29:05,315
said this the simplest thing I could say

835
00:29:05,315 --> 00:29:07,869
was you're now married to Jesus. You know?

836
00:29:07,869 --> 00:29:09,650
This is you've had a ceremony

837
00:29:10,109 --> 00:29:11,630
that connects you to him on a more

838
00:29:11,630 --> 00:29:12,670
personal level and,

839
00:29:13,309 --> 00:29:15,150
on a more committed level. And just like

840
00:29:15,150 --> 00:29:16,850
I I did so with,

841
00:29:17,309 --> 00:29:18,944
you know, my marriage. Like, the reason I

842
00:29:18,944 --> 00:29:20,944
went through a marriage ceremony, you know, apart

843
00:29:20,944 --> 00:29:22,785
from the temple and ceiling was I wanted

844
00:29:22,785 --> 00:29:24,884
to show that I'm in a deeper relationship

845
00:29:25,105 --> 00:29:27,105
with my wife. And, now you are in

846
00:29:27,105 --> 00:29:30,224
a deeper relationship with Jesus. And, that's beautiful

847
00:29:30,224 --> 00:29:31,930
rather than and I get what you're saying.

848
00:29:31,930 --> 00:29:33,769
Sometimes we go to this place of, like,

849
00:29:33,769 --> 00:29:35,690
you get power from the temple and your

850
00:29:35,690 --> 00:29:37,210
life goes better. And it's like, well, what

851
00:29:37,369 --> 00:29:39,369
I don't what do you mean? Like, where

852
00:29:39,369 --> 00:29:41,210
do those points meet? You know, what does

853
00:29:41,210 --> 00:29:42,269
that look like? Or

854
00:29:42,570 --> 00:29:44,570
when there's maybe better ways to just talk

855
00:29:44,570 --> 00:29:47,404
straightforwardly about it? Absolutely. I think often we

856
00:29:47,724 --> 00:29:49,244
a lot of people I've talked to about

857
00:29:49,244 --> 00:29:52,045
it about the temple, it's just frankly, it's

858
00:29:52,045 --> 00:29:52,945
kind of oversold

859
00:29:53,565 --> 00:29:55,884
on the wrong benefits in my view. Like

860
00:29:55,884 --> 00:29:57,884
you were saying, it's it's and, again, I

861
00:29:57,884 --> 00:30:00,445
can't step into what someone's personal experience is,

862
00:30:00,445 --> 00:30:03,039
so maybe they did have seven angels visit

863
00:30:03,039 --> 00:30:04,579
them in the hallway or whatever.

864
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,279
That that's quite possible. I don't know. But

865
00:30:07,279 --> 00:30:09,679
what I can say is that yeah. I

866
00:30:09,679 --> 00:30:11,440
just think the way we message things is

867
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,679
a larger conversation that is important. And when

868
00:30:13,679 --> 00:30:15,679
I say message things, just how we talk

869
00:30:15,679 --> 00:30:16,659
about this stuff.

870
00:30:16,974 --> 00:30:18,994
I'm kind of secretly on this mission

871
00:30:19,375 --> 00:30:22,014
to if I'm talking to folks about the

872
00:30:22,014 --> 00:30:24,254
faith and about this stuff, I want it

873
00:30:24,254 --> 00:30:26,335
to be, a, focused on Jesus, b, I

874
00:30:26,335 --> 00:30:29,075
want it to be super simple. Mhmm. And

875
00:30:29,359 --> 00:30:32,080
and, c, I don't want to oversell it.

876
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:33,539
I think we need to allow

877
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:35,599
the Holy Spirit to do the work on

878
00:30:35,599 --> 00:30:38,000
people's hearts. Mhmm. We don't have to convince

879
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:39,759
or twist or embellish or

880
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,160
and again, when people may or may not

881
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:43,825
do that, I don't think they're doing it

882
00:30:43,825 --> 00:30:45,924
from a bad place. I just think that

883
00:30:46,065 --> 00:30:47,845
that it it's not helpful.

884
00:30:48,384 --> 00:30:50,704
It sometimes is part of that cultural language

885
00:30:50,704 --> 00:30:52,304
stuff. Right? It's sort of part of the

886
00:30:52,304 --> 00:30:54,005
tropes that we all say, you know,

887
00:30:54,464 --> 00:30:56,900
whatever the pat line is. And I get

888
00:30:56,900 --> 00:30:59,539
every cultural in every organization has its tropes.

889
00:30:59,539 --> 00:31:01,220
It's part of the script. Right? I understand.

890
00:31:01,220 --> 00:31:04,339
Yeah. But I don't think that's really helpful

891
00:31:04,339 --> 00:31:05,480
in the work of discipleship

892
00:31:05,940 --> 00:31:07,720
in house, and I don't think it's

893
00:31:08,019 --> 00:31:09,799
helpful at all in the work of evangelism.

894
00:31:10,035 --> 00:31:12,115
So I just I think if we really

895
00:31:12,115 --> 00:31:12,595
look at

896
00:31:13,154 --> 00:31:14,755
you know, if if we just take the

897
00:31:14,755 --> 00:31:16,595
New Testament, pop it out, and look at,

898
00:31:16,595 --> 00:31:18,934
you know, these very simple core messages,

899
00:31:19,634 --> 00:31:21,075
I think we can stick to that and

900
00:31:21,075 --> 00:31:22,755
we'll be fine in terms of how we

901
00:31:22,755 --> 00:31:24,980
message. But often, I think some of my

902
00:31:24,980 --> 00:31:26,740
biggest frustrations you're talking about, you know, going

903
00:31:26,740 --> 00:31:28,259
back to the beginning, you know, what what

904
00:31:28,259 --> 00:31:30,419
has been challenging or how would you change

905
00:31:30,419 --> 00:31:32,740
it? Well, I would say at least half

906
00:31:32,740 --> 00:31:34,899
of every frustration I've had has been about

907
00:31:34,899 --> 00:31:35,399
messaging.

908
00:31:35,700 --> 00:31:37,700
And so, you know, just how we're talking,

909
00:31:37,700 --> 00:31:39,414
I'm like, what are you talking about? Like

910
00:31:39,575 --> 00:31:41,735
and so I'm on this quest in my

911
00:31:41,735 --> 00:31:43,095
own life because that's the only life I

912
00:31:43,095 --> 00:31:44,455
can, you know, work on as that's, you

913
00:31:44,455 --> 00:31:45,835
know, just how do I message

914
00:31:46,375 --> 00:31:47,515
in a way that is

915
00:31:48,055 --> 00:31:51,609
authentic and simple and Jesus focused. Because, unfortunately,

916
00:31:51,609 --> 00:31:53,230
we're just talking about the temple. I mean,

917
00:31:53,849 --> 00:31:55,150
so often, well intentioned

918
00:31:55,529 --> 00:31:57,690
people who I know love the lord would

919
00:31:57,690 --> 00:31:59,849
talk to me about 17 things about the

920
00:31:59,849 --> 00:32:01,609
temple and nowhere out of their mouth did

921
00:32:01,609 --> 00:32:03,210
I hear Jesus. And I'm like, this is

922
00:32:03,210 --> 00:32:04,650
gonna be a problem for me. So, you

923
00:32:04,650 --> 00:32:06,089
know Yeah. I think we just need to

924
00:32:06,089 --> 00:32:07,984
be careful. Yeah. I often say it's one

925
00:32:07,984 --> 00:32:09,284
thing to believe the gospel,

926
00:32:09,825 --> 00:32:10,944
but it's a whole another thing to be

927
00:32:10,944 --> 00:32:12,944
able to articulate the gospel, right, in a

928
00:32:12,944 --> 00:32:14,484
way that's really Of course.

929
00:32:14,944 --> 00:32:17,345
Right? And you're you're right on that. It

930
00:32:17,345 --> 00:32:19,264
can be that messaging there. So, I mean,

931
00:32:19,264 --> 00:32:21,369
if, let's say, you run into one of

932
00:32:21,369 --> 00:32:23,849
your old Baptist friends and you're like, hey.

933
00:32:23,849 --> 00:32:25,609
Great that you're on this path, but, like,

934
00:32:25,609 --> 00:32:27,529
man, what's with the temple? Like, why so

935
00:32:27,529 --> 00:32:29,130
much focus on the temple? Like, is there

936
00:32:29,130 --> 00:32:30,170
a way not to put you on the

937
00:32:30,170 --> 00:32:31,769
spot here, but I am. I mean, how

938
00:32:31,769 --> 00:32:33,450
would you articulate that? How would you message

939
00:32:33,450 --> 00:32:35,384
that to maybe someone outside our faith that's,

940
00:32:35,785 --> 00:32:37,785
still Christian? Yeah. I mean, if if someone

941
00:32:37,785 --> 00:32:39,945
wanted to ask about, you know, what's up

942
00:32:39,945 --> 00:32:42,125
with the temple or why do you go,

943
00:32:42,424 --> 00:32:45,244
my answer would probably be super simple.

944
00:32:45,545 --> 00:32:48,204
I would just say I am always interested

945
00:32:48,424 --> 00:32:49,644
in getting an opportunity

946
00:32:50,349 --> 00:32:52,769
to visit with Jesus in a way

947
00:32:53,389 --> 00:32:56,190
that connects me not just to the person

948
00:32:56,190 --> 00:32:58,369
of Jesus, but to the principles of Jesus.

949
00:32:58,589 --> 00:32:59,869
Mhmm. Because I think those are two very

950
00:32:59,869 --> 00:33:02,289
different things. I think they're both really important.

951
00:33:02,484 --> 00:33:04,325
Where I come from, you know, a lot

952
00:33:04,325 --> 00:33:06,505
about the person of Jesus, work of salvation,

953
00:33:06,565 --> 00:33:09,625
eternal security of believer, etcetera. But the principles

954
00:33:09,684 --> 00:33:12,804
of Jesus are really, really important. If you

955
00:33:12,804 --> 00:33:14,724
love me, you'll do what? You'll believe in

956
00:33:14,724 --> 00:33:16,164
me. No. That's not what it says. It

957
00:33:16,164 --> 00:33:17,384
says you'll keep my commandments.

958
00:33:17,799 --> 00:33:19,640
Mhmm. And I'm you're gonna have to get

959
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,380
these principles right. So I'm very interested in

960
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,160
the person and the principles of Jesus. And

961
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,259
I can't if we're talking about

962
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:28,460
a physical

963
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:30,299
get up and go

964
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:32,984
and have sort of high church, the temple

965
00:33:32,984 --> 00:33:34,904
is the place to do that. This is

966
00:33:35,065 --> 00:33:36,984
the temple is really our I don't know

967
00:33:36,984 --> 00:33:38,845
if you've ever been to a proper

968
00:33:39,224 --> 00:33:40,904
Latin mass. Have you ever been to, like,

969
00:33:40,904 --> 00:33:42,984
a high mass, like, Latin mass? I've been

970
00:33:42,984 --> 00:33:45,160
to a few Catholic funerals where, you know,

971
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,000
there's some We we did in that a

972
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:48,119
little bit. Yeah. We need to get you

973
00:33:48,119 --> 00:33:50,279
to a Latin mass. It's impressive. But the

974
00:33:50,279 --> 00:33:52,220
point is is, like, you go there, that's

975
00:33:52,359 --> 00:33:54,839
that's high church for them. Right? Mhmm. This

976
00:33:54,839 --> 00:33:56,140
is, like, proper

977
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:58,140
ceremonial ritual.

978
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,654
Like, we're not messing around. Right?

979
00:34:01,115 --> 00:34:02,794
Yeah. This is kind of in our I'm

980
00:34:02,794 --> 00:34:04,714
not saying these things are equivalent. They're they're

981
00:34:04,714 --> 00:34:06,315
different and great in their own ways. The

982
00:34:06,315 --> 00:34:08,655
point is is that when we go there,

983
00:34:09,114 --> 00:34:11,434
we're moving from low church, and that's not

984
00:34:11,434 --> 00:34:13,755
a negative thing. That's, you know, week over

985
00:34:13,755 --> 00:34:16,180
week sitting in your ward, which is graphically

986
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,400
sort of vanilla. There's not a lot on

987
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,739
the walls. It's all very kind of simple.

988
00:34:21,039 --> 00:34:23,360
You're moving into a place that even visually,

989
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,220
the moment you walk up, you know

990
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,260
we're now entering into a different space,

991
00:34:28,764 --> 00:34:31,505
and your entire worship posture changes,

992
00:34:32,045 --> 00:34:34,605
your orientation changes. Nobody needs to tell you

993
00:34:34,605 --> 00:34:35,885
to whisper when you walk in there. You

994
00:34:35,885 --> 00:34:37,405
just know that you're in a different place.

995
00:34:37,405 --> 00:34:39,324
Right? Like, they're in a there's an assign.

996
00:34:39,324 --> 00:34:41,105
Like, you just you walk in, you know.

997
00:34:41,329 --> 00:34:42,929
And so I would just say to that

998
00:34:42,929 --> 00:34:44,610
person again, yeah, I wanna go to a

999
00:34:44,610 --> 00:34:45,969
place where I can learn about the principles

1000
00:34:45,969 --> 00:34:48,050
and the person of Jesus. I wanna do

1001
00:34:48,050 --> 00:34:49,329
that in a way that is sort of

1002
00:34:49,329 --> 00:34:51,730
high church. I wanna experience something that is

1003
00:34:51,730 --> 00:34:52,789
not every day.

1004
00:34:53,090 --> 00:34:54,530
And, you know, you don't go to the

1005
00:34:54,530 --> 00:34:55,905
temple every day, I guess, unless you work

1006
00:34:55,905 --> 00:34:56,864
there. I mean, I don't go to the

1007
00:34:56,864 --> 00:34:59,265
temple every day, but, like, it's something that

1008
00:34:59,265 --> 00:35:00,704
you go when you do and and you

1009
00:35:00,704 --> 00:35:02,385
know you're doing business with God in a

1010
00:35:02,385 --> 00:35:04,945
different way. And that's very interesting. Yeah. And

1011
00:35:04,945 --> 00:35:06,704
that really I feel like just from my

1012
00:35:06,704 --> 00:35:07,844
own experience in

1013
00:35:08,224 --> 00:35:10,465
observing human nature, like, that does something for

1014
00:35:10,465 --> 00:35:13,000
the human psyche of, you know, God could

1015
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:14,679
have come to Moses in a tent where

1016
00:35:14,679 --> 00:35:16,679
he sleeps and just says, hey, I've got

1017
00:35:16,679 --> 00:35:18,779
some things to teach you, but just that

1018
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,719
place of move, like physically going to a

1019
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:23,880
place that's closer to him. It shifts the

1020
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,059
dynamic in a way that's really important. Right?

1021
00:35:26,574 --> 00:35:28,815
To go to Ichurch. Yeah. It's an important

1022
00:35:28,815 --> 00:35:30,735
part of the the idea of worship. I

1023
00:35:30,735 --> 00:35:31,235
think

1024
00:35:31,535 --> 00:35:32,974
when you're going, you have to get in

1025
00:35:32,974 --> 00:35:33,875
the car, go.

1026
00:35:34,255 --> 00:35:35,855
You might wear some different things than you're

1027
00:35:35,855 --> 00:35:37,934
normally aware. You might do some things that

1028
00:35:37,934 --> 00:35:40,630
you don't normally do. Like, this is putting

1029
00:35:40,630 --> 00:35:42,890
us in an environment and in a posture

1030
00:35:43,030 --> 00:35:43,849
of worship

1031
00:35:44,309 --> 00:35:46,650
Mhmm. That is not a casual experience.

1032
00:35:47,190 --> 00:35:49,050
Yeah. Much of what we do as Christians

1033
00:35:49,349 --> 00:35:49,849
in

1034
00:35:50,230 --> 00:35:52,409
general can be remarkably casual,

1035
00:35:52,949 --> 00:35:54,489
can be sort of

1036
00:35:54,984 --> 00:35:57,385
redundant and day by day monotonous. You know,

1037
00:35:57,385 --> 00:35:59,224
just checking stuff, and we all can fall

1038
00:35:59,224 --> 00:35:59,964
into this.

1039
00:36:00,744 --> 00:36:02,984
When we have to go and kinda do

1040
00:36:03,065 --> 00:36:04,344
when we get to go and do this

1041
00:36:04,344 --> 00:36:04,844
thing,

1042
00:36:05,144 --> 00:36:07,804
it's a it's a different experience. We're moving

1043
00:36:08,219 --> 00:36:10,780
from a sort of casual or, hey. Yeah.

1044
00:36:10,780 --> 00:36:12,460
You know? And now we're moving into a

1045
00:36:12,460 --> 00:36:13,519
place where alright.

1046
00:36:14,059 --> 00:36:15,980
Like, we're not again, I use a very

1047
00:36:15,980 --> 00:36:17,820
simple thing. We're just we're not messing around

1048
00:36:17,820 --> 00:36:20,300
now. Like, you come out of the, and

1049
00:36:20,300 --> 00:36:22,139
I'm not revealing anything here that I shouldn't.

1050
00:36:22,139 --> 00:36:23,364
I mean, you you come out of the

1051
00:36:23,364 --> 00:36:25,285
changing room, it's on. Like Yeah. We're not

1052
00:36:25,285 --> 00:36:27,144
messing around. Yeah. Like, so

1053
00:36:27,445 --> 00:36:30,085
that's it. There's something to that. There's a

1054
00:36:30,085 --> 00:36:32,644
gravity to that that has some weight to

1055
00:36:32,644 --> 00:36:33,144
it

1056
00:36:33,605 --> 00:36:34,644
that gives our

1057
00:36:35,500 --> 00:36:38,300
frankly, gives our theology, gives our experience a

1058
00:36:38,300 --> 00:36:41,280
little bit more teeth. It's not so

1059
00:36:41,820 --> 00:36:42,320
just

1060
00:36:42,860 --> 00:36:43,840
vague or,

1061
00:36:44,219 --> 00:36:46,300
you know, just kind of, again, the normal

1062
00:36:46,300 --> 00:36:48,539
stuff. It gives it Yeah. It gives it

1063
00:36:48,539 --> 00:36:50,400
some heft that I think is

1064
00:36:50,844 --> 00:36:51,344
useful

1065
00:36:51,885 --> 00:36:53,485
in a walk every day and every week

1066
00:36:53,485 --> 00:36:55,565
where all of us are parents or married

1067
00:36:55,565 --> 00:36:57,485
or have kids or dogs or cats or

1068
00:36:57,485 --> 00:36:59,565
callings or whatever. You need all the help

1069
00:36:59,565 --> 00:37:01,885
that you can get, and sometimes you gotta

1070
00:37:01,885 --> 00:37:02,625
go to,

1071
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:04,639
you know, a a really serious place to

1072
00:37:04,639 --> 00:37:06,719
get serious help. And so that's a good

1073
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:08,559
place to go to get it. Anything else

1074
00:37:08,559 --> 00:37:10,559
about the temple that you wanna make sure

1075
00:37:10,559 --> 00:37:12,079
we mention? Or I mean, I'm I'm totally

1076
00:37:12,079 --> 00:37:13,759
the la I'm the least qualified person to

1077
00:37:13,759 --> 00:37:15,279
talk about the temple. I I it took

1078
00:37:15,279 --> 00:37:16,934
me four years to get there. So

1079
00:37:17,414 --> 00:37:19,735
every other guest that you've ever had knows

1080
00:37:19,735 --> 00:37:21,594
more. I just happen to

1081
00:37:21,894 --> 00:37:24,855
that it is centrally a Jesus place. And

1082
00:37:24,855 --> 00:37:26,074
if nothing else,

1083
00:37:26,535 --> 00:37:28,695
get in the door and find a place

1084
00:37:28,695 --> 00:37:31,414
to sit anywhere, and you're gonna encounter Jesus

1085
00:37:31,414 --> 00:37:33,059
in a very unique way. That would be

1086
00:37:33,059 --> 00:37:35,140
my best counsel. I love it. I love

1087
00:37:35,140 --> 00:37:37,300
it. You alluded to your to your calling.

1088
00:37:37,539 --> 00:37:39,460
What's your current calling right now? I'm on

1089
00:37:39,460 --> 00:37:41,619
part of the Stake High Council. Nice. How

1090
00:37:41,619 --> 00:37:43,079
long has that been going on?

1091
00:37:43,380 --> 00:37:44,280
Four months.

1092
00:37:44,739 --> 00:37:47,454
Oh, nice. Ish. So and maybe I haven't

1093
00:37:47,695 --> 00:37:49,375
I've got so many questions. Like, what has

1094
00:37:49,375 --> 00:37:50,894
been some of the different callings you've had

1095
00:37:50,894 --> 00:37:53,375
over the last five years? None that were

1096
00:37:53,375 --> 00:37:55,375
very I didn't have a lot of callings

1097
00:37:55,375 --> 00:37:56,914
at all. I mean, truthfully,

1098
00:37:57,695 --> 00:37:58,514
early on,

1099
00:37:58,894 --> 00:38:00,275
I did some stuff with

1100
00:38:00,819 --> 00:38:02,900
Super Young Men. So not primary, but somewhere

1101
00:38:02,900 --> 00:38:04,659
in between, call that? I don't know. Like

1102
00:38:04,659 --> 00:38:06,819
the nursery or No. Not the nursery. It

1103
00:38:06,819 --> 00:38:09,859
was, like, somewhere yeah. Like, it was well,

1104
00:38:09,859 --> 00:38:12,099
no. It was primary, I guess. But I

1105
00:38:12,099 --> 00:38:14,019
was teaching. I was co teaching, you know,

1106
00:38:14,019 --> 00:38:15,644
doing that kind of thing. And then I

1107
00:38:15,644 --> 00:38:16,785
was, like, an assistant

1108
00:38:17,164 --> 00:38:19,405
ward mission leader for about half a second,

1109
00:38:19,405 --> 00:38:21,585
and then I was a state high council.

1110
00:38:21,965 --> 00:38:24,204
Cool. And but I go back, like, early

1111
00:38:24,204 --> 00:38:25,804
on, like, I was you know, I I

1112
00:38:25,804 --> 00:38:28,285
love the different episodes and the content that

1113
00:38:28,285 --> 00:38:30,285
you created online, and and it was definitely,

1114
00:38:30,285 --> 00:38:31,319
like, an avenue

1115
00:38:31,859 --> 00:38:33,940
for you to release some of that pent

1116
00:38:33,940 --> 00:38:36,920
up, you know, pastoral energy that you had

1117
00:38:36,980 --> 00:38:38,980
to share the gospel Still does. Get into

1118
00:38:38,980 --> 00:38:40,980
the book. Right? Yep. And so I don't

1119
00:38:40,980 --> 00:38:42,260
know how else you would do that. Like,

1120
00:38:42,260 --> 00:38:44,434
right? I mean, it's hard to just put

1121
00:38:44,434 --> 00:38:45,015
that away

1122
00:38:45,474 --> 00:38:46,614
in this new journey.

1123
00:38:46,994 --> 00:38:48,755
So, I mean but would you still do

1124
00:38:48,755 --> 00:38:50,755
it that way? Or Well, I can tell

1125
00:38:50,755 --> 00:38:53,235
you. I mean, in the last two weeks,

1126
00:38:53,235 --> 00:38:54,695
I've probably produced

1127
00:38:55,155 --> 00:38:56,934
12 new episodes of preaching.

1128
00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:58,960
Okay. So, I mean, I preach at a

1129
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:00,740
very rapid cadence still.

1130
00:39:01,119 --> 00:39:02,500
And I do that because,

1131
00:39:03,519 --> 00:39:04,019
one,

1132
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,480
I think I've I have heard from a

1133
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:08,400
lot of people over the last five years

1134
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:08,900
that

1135
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:09,700
appreciate

1136
00:39:10,525 --> 00:39:14,045
a more maybe animated style of preaching the

1137
00:39:14,045 --> 00:39:15,804
bible. And all that is is just me

1138
00:39:15,804 --> 00:39:17,505
doing like, this isn't

1139
00:39:18,045 --> 00:39:20,204
horrible self promotion here. Here's the point. So,

1140
00:39:20,204 --> 00:39:20,704
like,

1141
00:39:21,085 --> 00:39:23,085
one line of my teaching is the hope

1142
00:39:23,085 --> 00:39:24,684
in him today podcast. Right? So you know

1143
00:39:24,684 --> 00:39:25,744
about that. And and

1144
00:39:26,099 --> 00:39:28,019
I just re put that back online, like,

1145
00:39:28,019 --> 00:39:30,340
three weeks ago. Oh, great. And that is

1146
00:39:30,340 --> 00:39:32,500
just line by line bible teaching. So if

1147
00:39:32,500 --> 00:39:33,720
you closed your eyes

1148
00:39:34,260 --> 00:39:35,860
and you didn't know about any of this,

1149
00:39:35,860 --> 00:39:37,460
you'd just be like, oh, yeah. Pastor Miller's

1150
00:39:37,460 --> 00:39:39,755
preaching. So it's cool. Like, anybody can come

1151
00:39:39,755 --> 00:39:41,434
there and it's safe place, and they're not

1152
00:39:41,434 --> 00:39:43,835
gonna hear anything weird. And it's you know,

1153
00:39:43,835 --> 00:39:46,155
that's just bible teaching all day long. Yeah.

1154
00:39:46,155 --> 00:39:47,355
I'll send you a link, Kurt. You should

1155
00:39:47,355 --> 00:39:48,974
leave me a review or something. Good grief.

1156
00:39:49,035 --> 00:39:49,535
So

1157
00:39:49,914 --> 00:39:52,139
so, yeah, that's that side. The other side

1158
00:39:52,139 --> 00:39:53,819
is I do a podcast called Outside the

1159
00:39:53,819 --> 00:39:55,900
Lane, which is, you know, faith beyond our

1160
00:39:55,900 --> 00:39:58,139
own kind of tradition. So I'm we're learning

1161
00:39:58,139 --> 00:40:01,659
from charismatics and Catholics and Muslims and all

1162
00:40:01,659 --> 00:40:03,659
kinds of people, and it's fantastic because I

1163
00:40:03,659 --> 00:40:04,639
love those conversations.

1164
00:40:05,184 --> 00:40:07,264
Because I'm I get very concerned when anything

1165
00:40:07,264 --> 00:40:08,704
of us think we own the franchise on

1166
00:40:08,704 --> 00:40:10,625
God. That makes me very, very nervous. Yeah.

1167
00:40:10,625 --> 00:40:11,125
Yeah.

1168
00:40:11,984 --> 00:40:13,605
So in either one of those,

1169
00:40:14,065 --> 00:40:16,545
I'm recording still three or four episodes a

1170
00:40:16,545 --> 00:40:17,924
week just because

1171
00:40:18,500 --> 00:40:19,940
people have reached out and have said, you

1172
00:40:19,940 --> 00:40:22,179
know, they appreciate the style and they appreciate

1173
00:40:22,179 --> 00:40:23,859
the sort of directness of that, and it

1174
00:40:23,859 --> 00:40:26,500
encourages them and motivates them. And but I've

1175
00:40:26,500 --> 00:40:27,940
had to I mean, I've certainly had to

1176
00:40:27,940 --> 00:40:29,539
refine that a bit over the years, and

1177
00:40:29,539 --> 00:40:31,619
I have a big old fat disclaimer obviously

1178
00:40:31,619 --> 00:40:33,704
on my podcast now that's like, look. I'm

1179
00:40:33,704 --> 00:40:35,164
I'm not endorsed by anybody.

1180
00:40:35,465 --> 00:40:37,305
I'm not endorsing anybody. This is just one

1181
00:40:37,305 --> 00:40:38,525
guy talking about Jesus.

1182
00:40:39,144 --> 00:40:40,905
Hit play at your own peril. I know,

1183
00:40:40,905 --> 00:40:42,445
you know, you're at risk. And

1184
00:40:42,905 --> 00:40:43,724
most importantly,

1185
00:40:44,105 --> 00:40:45,785
the scriptures, the secret place of prayer, and

1186
00:40:45,785 --> 00:40:47,545
being connected to a local church community is

1187
00:40:47,545 --> 00:40:49,160
much more important than a podcast. So use

1188
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:50,599
this as a supplement, not as the main

1189
00:40:50,599 --> 00:40:52,840
thing. I say it every single episode. And

1190
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:54,140
so that helps me

1191
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:55,260
kind

1192
00:40:55,720 --> 00:40:58,200
of balance it so that, you know, I

1193
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,440
don't confuse myself thinking I'm still the pastor

1194
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,295
of the Narragate Baptist Church. But it also

1195
00:41:03,295 --> 00:41:04,735
allows me to teach in a way that

1196
00:41:04,735 --> 00:41:06,815
keeps my chops up and I'm always excited

1197
00:41:06,815 --> 00:41:08,994
to talk about the scripture. So yeah. Yeah.

1198
00:41:09,135 --> 00:41:11,375
Do you find yourself more and more like

1199
00:41:11,535 --> 00:41:12,655
I mean, do you feel more and more

1200
00:41:12,655 --> 00:41:15,175
comfortable with, like, Book of Mormon scripture, Doctor

1201
00:41:15,175 --> 00:41:16,815
and Governance type of stuff that you work

1202
00:41:16,815 --> 00:41:18,230
that in or you try and just keep

1203
00:41:18,230 --> 00:41:20,730
this more just, traditional Christian?

1204
00:41:21,190 --> 00:41:21,690
Now

1205
00:41:22,309 --> 00:41:24,869
on Hope and Him, I just teach bible

1206
00:41:24,869 --> 00:41:26,630
stuff. I used to teach a ton of

1207
00:41:26,630 --> 00:41:28,089
Book of Mormon stuff,

1208
00:41:28,710 --> 00:41:29,210
but

1209
00:41:29,855 --> 00:41:32,514
I think for what I what is interesting

1210
00:41:32,655 --> 00:41:33,234
to me

1211
00:41:33,775 --> 00:41:35,534
over on outside the lane, obviously, I talk

1212
00:41:35,534 --> 00:41:36,734
about the Book of Mormon. I talk about

1213
00:41:36,734 --> 00:41:37,635
all kinds of scriptures.

1214
00:41:38,094 --> 00:41:40,034
I mean, I've spent the last

1215
00:41:40,335 --> 00:41:42,574
year and a half, for example, really studying

1216
00:41:42,574 --> 00:41:43,875
the Quran, for example.

1217
00:41:44,319 --> 00:41:46,719
And so I love talking about that stuff

1218
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,039
over there. So outside the lane, we you'll

1219
00:41:49,039 --> 00:41:50,739
hear about more of that kind of stuff.

1220
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:52,559
Over on Hope and Him, I just think

1221
00:41:52,559 --> 00:41:55,039
that it's I also it's weird, Kurt. So

1222
00:41:55,039 --> 00:41:58,019
here's the thing. If you start talking

1223
00:41:58,824 --> 00:42:01,224
Book of Mormon D and C, it's the

1224
00:42:01,224 --> 00:42:04,105
funniest thing. I've been preaching bible online, like,

1225
00:42:04,105 --> 00:42:06,585
podcasts and stuff since, like, the first days

1226
00:42:06,585 --> 00:42:08,445
of narrow gate, right, the church.

1227
00:42:08,824 --> 00:42:11,485
And I I never would hear from people,

1228
00:42:11,545 --> 00:42:13,304
like, much about like, I would never get

1229
00:42:13,304 --> 00:42:14,950
the but also emails. Oh, I heard you

1230
00:42:14,950 --> 00:42:16,469
preaching, but, you know, also, that verse could

1231
00:42:16,469 --> 00:42:18,390
be in this or whatever. The moment I

1232
00:42:18,390 --> 00:42:20,230
would put up Book of Mormon or DNC

1233
00:42:20,230 --> 00:42:20,730
stuff,

1234
00:42:21,030 --> 00:42:22,410
like, I would get

1235
00:42:22,789 --> 00:42:23,450
so many

1236
00:42:23,989 --> 00:42:26,410
emails and stuff about, like, well, you know,

1237
00:42:26,614 --> 00:42:28,375
this could also mean this, or you're bringing

1238
00:42:28,375 --> 00:42:29,974
a little too much of your Baptist into

1239
00:42:29,974 --> 00:42:31,414
this. I'm like, well, maybe you need some

1240
00:42:31,414 --> 00:42:32,775
more of my Baptist. You know? Like, I

1241
00:42:32,775 --> 00:42:35,494
mean so I just said, we're gonna kinda

1242
00:42:35,494 --> 00:42:37,114
partition these in a way

1243
00:42:37,655 --> 00:42:38,315
so that

1244
00:42:38,614 --> 00:42:40,875
it will make it easier. If people wanna

1245
00:42:41,094 --> 00:42:43,489
take in that stuff that's more, again, ditzy

1246
00:42:43,489 --> 00:42:45,570
or Book of Mormon particularly, which I have

1247
00:42:45,570 --> 00:42:48,210
a I just love and have been reading

1248
00:42:48,210 --> 00:42:50,449
every day for years. I have no problem

1249
00:42:50,449 --> 00:42:52,449
talking about that on Outside the Lane. Just

1250
00:42:52,449 --> 00:42:54,050
over an open hymn, I keep it more

1251
00:42:54,050 --> 00:42:56,449
biblically centric just to kinda divide those things

1252
00:42:56,449 --> 00:42:58,824
up a little bit, but it's not, You

1253
00:42:58,824 --> 00:43:00,344
know? You talk to me any day of

1254
00:43:00,344 --> 00:43:01,465
the week. If you want me to teach

1255
00:43:01,465 --> 00:43:02,744
Book of Mormon, you could drop me in

1256
00:43:02,744 --> 00:43:04,664
front of anybody. We'll we'll sling it. That's

1257
00:43:04,664 --> 00:43:05,405
not a problem.

1258
00:43:05,864 --> 00:43:07,625
And what what's the experience been like just

1259
00:43:07,625 --> 00:43:09,224
on the high council? I assume you you

1260
00:43:09,224 --> 00:43:10,744
speak a lot more in different words in

1261
00:43:10,744 --> 00:43:12,739
your stake? Yeah. I do, which I'm very

1262
00:43:12,739 --> 00:43:14,260
grateful for. I mean, I think that was

1263
00:43:14,260 --> 00:43:16,260
one of the things that I serve under

1264
00:43:16,260 --> 00:43:18,420
a really good stake president. And so he

1265
00:43:18,420 --> 00:43:20,659
was very understanding of the dilemma that I'm

1266
00:43:20,659 --> 00:43:22,420
like, man, I I'm used to preaching a

1267
00:43:22,420 --> 00:43:23,320
lot. So

1268
00:43:23,715 --> 00:43:24,375
he was

1269
00:43:24,675 --> 00:43:26,755
he got that, and so I do get

1270
00:43:26,755 --> 00:43:28,295
to speak a lot more.

1271
00:43:28,675 --> 00:43:29,175
And

1272
00:43:29,474 --> 00:43:32,195
so I'm, again, grateful for that. And it's

1273
00:43:32,195 --> 00:43:34,515
so interesting as you visit different wards to

1274
00:43:34,515 --> 00:43:36,835
see certainly how similar they are, but how

1275
00:43:36,835 --> 00:43:38,820
different they can be as well. The view

1276
00:43:38,820 --> 00:43:40,340
from up there when you're sitting there waiting

1277
00:43:40,340 --> 00:43:41,160
to go up,

1278
00:43:41,460 --> 00:43:42,900
I mean, just from the way people sing

1279
00:43:42,900 --> 00:43:45,219
hymns is so radically different word to word.

1280
00:43:45,219 --> 00:43:46,260
I don't know if that is in your

1281
00:43:46,260 --> 00:43:48,180
world out there. Maybe Utah or whatever is

1282
00:43:48,180 --> 00:43:50,260
different. But No. But something else in this.

1283
00:43:50,260 --> 00:43:52,304
Yeah. But it's wild.

1284
00:43:52,605 --> 00:43:54,625
Like, I'll be sitting in one and everybody's,

1285
00:43:54,684 --> 00:43:56,204
like, super reserved. And, like, I mean, you

1286
00:43:56,204 --> 00:43:57,485
could light a bomb off in the thing

1287
00:43:57,485 --> 00:43:59,324
and nobody would move. And then you got

1288
00:43:59,324 --> 00:44:01,965
others, man. I mean, literally, first word, first

1289
00:44:01,965 --> 00:44:04,349
verse, that organ kicks. And I mean, they're

1290
00:44:04,430 --> 00:44:06,690
full throated singing. I'm like, alright now.

1291
00:44:07,150 --> 00:44:09,390
Alright. Well, God's people said amen. And we're

1292
00:44:09,390 --> 00:44:11,230
preaching now. I mean, they're they're fired up.

1293
00:44:11,230 --> 00:44:13,570
And I love that. Because I mean, look,

1294
00:44:13,789 --> 00:44:16,190
if I look, this is preacher school one

1295
00:44:16,190 --> 00:44:16,930
on one.

1296
00:44:17,244 --> 00:44:19,405
Half of the effectiveness of your sermons and

1297
00:44:19,405 --> 00:44:21,005
your teaching has to do with how good

1298
00:44:21,005 --> 00:44:23,085
the crowd is. Like, if you're teaching to

1299
00:44:23,085 --> 00:44:24,605
a dead crowd, you can have the best

1300
00:44:24,605 --> 00:44:26,784
message in the world. It doesn't matter.

1301
00:44:27,164 --> 00:44:28,525
You can be in front of a crowd

1302
00:44:28,525 --> 00:44:31,005
that's really engaged and lit up and fired

1303
00:44:31,005 --> 00:44:33,199
up. You can preach a message that's not

1304
00:44:33,199 --> 00:44:34,880
even half as good, and, I mean, it'll

1305
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:35,699
just hit.

1306
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,800
And so, I mean, it's a cool experience

1307
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:40,559
for me because I have you know, I've

1308
00:44:40,559 --> 00:44:42,159
had the opportunity to teach in front of

1309
00:44:42,159 --> 00:44:44,019
rooms that are a little bit more subdued,

1310
00:44:44,079 --> 00:44:46,079
which is a struggle because I'm like, man,

1311
00:44:46,079 --> 00:44:47,934
shout it. But then there are others. It's

1312
00:44:47,934 --> 00:44:49,375
funny. I'll be up there and I'll be

1313
00:44:49,375 --> 00:44:50,815
in the middle of teaching. I'll be, you

1314
00:44:50,815 --> 00:44:53,534
know, because it's what every other paragraph I'll

1315
00:44:53,534 --> 00:44:55,135
be up there shouting, you know, amen. And

1316
00:44:55,135 --> 00:44:56,734
I'll have some I'll hear somebody to my

1317
00:44:56,734 --> 00:44:58,734
left and the bishop are going, amen. I'm

1318
00:44:58,734 --> 00:45:00,655
like, alright. That's right. So you can you

1319
00:45:00,655 --> 00:45:03,230
can tell there's there's just differences in different

1320
00:45:03,230 --> 00:45:05,389
places, and that's cool. I think this church

1321
00:45:05,389 --> 00:45:06,909
in general is a lot more diverse than

1322
00:45:06,909 --> 00:45:08,849
we like to admit or that we showcase.

1323
00:45:08,989 --> 00:45:10,670
There's a lot of different kind of believers

1324
00:45:10,670 --> 00:45:12,929
in this place, and I wish we could

1325
00:45:12,989 --> 00:45:14,750
could hear from more of them because I

1326
00:45:14,750 --> 00:45:16,190
think sometimes we all try to be the

1327
00:45:16,190 --> 00:45:18,105
same kind of believer. I don't think that's

1328
00:45:18,105 --> 00:45:20,184
what this where this church shines. I think

1329
00:45:20,184 --> 00:45:22,505
this church shines when you see the different

1330
00:45:22,505 --> 00:45:24,664
kind of believers and the people that are

1331
00:45:24,664 --> 00:45:25,945
in the back and the people that are

1332
00:45:25,945 --> 00:45:28,025
sitting out in the foyer and the man,

1333
00:45:28,025 --> 00:45:29,804
there's some really interesting

1334
00:45:30,344 --> 00:45:31,324
and talented

1335
00:45:32,105 --> 00:45:32,605
and

1336
00:45:33,119 --> 00:45:34,579
fired up Jesus people,

1337
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:36,019
but I think sometimes

1338
00:45:36,319 --> 00:45:38,239
they're trying so hard to conform to look

1339
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:40,079
like everybody else that they're missing their message

1340
00:45:40,079 --> 00:45:41,839
and all of us are missing their message.

1341
00:45:41,839 --> 00:45:43,359
We could learn a lot from those folks.

1342
00:45:43,359 --> 00:45:45,519
And so Yeah. Yeah. It's it's cool getting

1343
00:45:45,519 --> 00:45:47,199
the chance to go to different places because

1344
00:45:47,199 --> 00:45:49,605
you you definitely see not all wards are

1345
00:45:49,605 --> 00:45:50,265
the same

1346
00:45:50,724 --> 00:45:52,804
and, in terms of their energy and their

1347
00:45:52,804 --> 00:45:55,284
culture, but, you know, Jesus finds his way

1348
00:45:55,284 --> 00:45:56,644
to every one of them. So it's good.

1349
00:45:56,644 --> 00:45:58,565
Yeah. Do you feel like when you're speaking

1350
00:45:58,565 --> 00:46:00,905
and, you know, as as a high councilor,

1351
00:46:00,965 --> 00:46:02,420
like, do you feel like you're back in

1352
00:46:02,420 --> 00:46:04,339
the in the saddle of preaching, or do

1353
00:46:04,339 --> 00:46:05,699
you do you shift your cadence a little

1354
00:46:05,699 --> 00:46:07,940
bit just because of the the nature of

1355
00:46:07,940 --> 00:46:10,339
of that setting? Or I've had to really

1356
00:46:10,339 --> 00:46:12,579
tone it down. I mean, I I do

1357
00:46:12,579 --> 00:46:14,339
tone it down to a certain degree. I

1358
00:46:14,339 --> 00:46:16,094
mean, it depends on the room. I think,

1359
00:46:16,255 --> 00:46:18,094
you know, for those of us that have

1360
00:46:18,094 --> 00:46:19,695
had to sit you know, sat up there

1361
00:46:19,695 --> 00:46:21,135
and gotten up to preach every week for

1362
00:46:21,135 --> 00:46:22,494
a long time, you can kinda read a

1363
00:46:22,494 --> 00:46:24,815
room. I mean, you kinda know if, you

1364
00:46:24,815 --> 00:46:26,655
know, what you can kinda push and what

1365
00:46:26,655 --> 00:46:28,514
you can. And I would say,

1366
00:46:28,974 --> 00:46:31,280
yeah, I start my outlines, you know, let's

1367
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:33,199
say, on a Monday. I always wanna have

1368
00:46:33,199 --> 00:46:35,039
it done by Wednesday because then I'll just

1369
00:46:35,039 --> 00:46:36,559
rep it for the next three days. I'll

1370
00:46:36,559 --> 00:46:38,719
just practice it to make sure it's really,

1371
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:39,460
really solid

1372
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:41,940
by Sunday. And and so

1373
00:46:42,385 --> 00:46:44,704
my messages on Monday still start like pastor

1374
00:46:44,704 --> 00:46:47,265
Miller, and they end the week at, like,

1375
00:46:47,265 --> 00:46:49,925
sort of high council. So it's it downshifts

1376
00:46:50,144 --> 00:46:52,144
through the week because I'll I'll start it

1377
00:46:52,144 --> 00:46:54,325
and I'll preach it. Crystal's like, oh, man.

1378
00:46:54,385 --> 00:46:56,305
That's what I'm talking about. She's like, preach

1379
00:46:56,305 --> 00:46:58,420
that. And then I'll come off if she's

1380
00:46:58,420 --> 00:47:00,280
happens to be listening to me on Sunday,

1381
00:47:00,500 --> 00:47:01,400
and she'll go,

1382
00:47:01,780 --> 00:47:03,380
you cut out so much. She's like, you

1383
00:47:03,380 --> 00:47:04,280
were too cold.

1384
00:47:04,579 --> 00:47:05,320
And so,

1385
00:47:05,860 --> 00:47:08,019
you know, you wanna listen, I learned from

1386
00:47:08,019 --> 00:47:10,099
one of my favorite pastor's preachers, a guy

1387
00:47:10,099 --> 00:47:12,974
named Brian Branham. And I just, he's amazing.

1388
00:47:13,355 --> 00:47:15,355
I learned early on from him, listen, you

1389
00:47:15,355 --> 00:47:17,375
you preach to the room that you're in,

1390
00:47:17,434 --> 00:47:19,514
and you wanna honor where they are. And

1391
00:47:19,514 --> 00:47:20,335
so if they're

1392
00:47:20,795 --> 00:47:22,815
cooler and chill and not real,

1393
00:47:23,195 --> 00:47:23,775
you know,

1394
00:47:24,155 --> 00:47:25,835
boisterous, then don't go in there and try

1395
00:47:25,835 --> 00:47:27,840
to plow through them. You know, try to

1396
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:29,519
speak in a language they understand and at

1397
00:47:29,519 --> 00:47:31,140
a tempo and a pace they understand.

1398
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:32,099
But, conversely,

1399
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:33,840
if you're in a place where they are

1400
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:35,360
and I just I tell it by the

1401
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:37,680
hymns, man. I mean, if I'm getting knocked

1402
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:39,300
over by your first hymn,

1403
00:47:39,599 --> 00:47:41,039
I know we're in business. And I know

1404
00:47:41,039 --> 00:47:42,079
I can come up there and be a

1405
00:47:42,079 --> 00:47:43,674
lot looser with you, and I can hit

1406
00:47:43,674 --> 00:47:45,275
the pulpit a little harder, and I can

1407
00:47:45,275 --> 00:47:47,514
do that. And so but I think what's

1408
00:47:47,514 --> 00:47:49,355
been great and I really appreciate is no

1409
00:47:49,355 --> 00:47:51,054
one has asked me

1410
00:47:51,434 --> 00:47:53,914
to change my style or delivery or any

1411
00:47:53,914 --> 00:47:55,755
of that. I just think I always wanna

1412
00:47:55,914 --> 00:47:58,340
I always wanna be prayerful about, you know,

1413
00:47:58,340 --> 00:48:00,099
let me make sure that I'm preaching the

1414
00:48:00,099 --> 00:48:02,420
word. Let me make sure I'm not preaching

1415
00:48:02,420 --> 00:48:03,079
my flesh.

1416
00:48:03,380 --> 00:48:05,219
And, you know, as old another one of

1417
00:48:05,219 --> 00:48:07,059
my favorite preachers, Tony Hudson, used to say,

1418
00:48:07,059 --> 00:48:08,179
you know, every time he'd get up to

1419
00:48:08,179 --> 00:48:10,980
pray before he'd preach, he'd say, father, in

1420
00:48:10,980 --> 00:48:12,659
the name of Jesus, I stand where flesh

1421
00:48:12,659 --> 00:48:14,744
has failed me. And so I'm the same

1422
00:48:14,744 --> 00:48:16,585
way. My flesh will fail me if I'm

1423
00:48:16,585 --> 00:48:18,264
up there on my own. And so, you

1424
00:48:18,264 --> 00:48:19,625
know, I always wanna honor it, but I've

1425
00:48:19,625 --> 00:48:21,385
been very grateful no one's asked me to

1426
00:48:21,385 --> 00:48:22,905
to tone it down or anything because I,

1427
00:48:22,905 --> 00:48:24,424
you know, because I wanna make sure that

1428
00:48:24,424 --> 00:48:26,519
I I do honor what we're doing there.

1429
00:48:26,599 --> 00:48:28,440
I wish we preached harder, and I wish

1430
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:30,460
we would sling it harder, and that's true.

1431
00:48:30,599 --> 00:48:33,559
I've never hidden that. But at the same

1432
00:48:33,559 --> 00:48:35,420
time, you know, I've got an opportunity

1433
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:38,360
to to convey a message, and I pretty

1434
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:39,344
frequently will get messages

1435
00:48:44,144 --> 00:48:45,844
something that hit them that day, and then

1436
00:48:45,905 --> 00:48:47,505
then I'm fine with that. And then if

1437
00:48:47,505 --> 00:48:49,184
I wanna really shout and sling it, that's

1438
00:48:49,184 --> 00:48:50,704
why I have a podcast. So you can

1439
00:48:50,704 --> 00:48:52,644
go on there and go crazy. That's right.

1440
00:48:52,704 --> 00:48:54,065
But Yeah. I'm glad you have a a

1441
00:48:54,065 --> 00:48:56,000
venue there. You wanna honor where you are,

1442
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:57,940
and and I always wanna be real careful

1443
00:48:58,079 --> 00:49:00,320
with that. But at the same time, they

1444
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:02,800
didn't necessarily call me because I was quiet.

1445
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:04,239
They knew what they were getting when they

1446
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:05,760
called me, and I and I told them

1447
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:07,280
that. I remember Crystal and I sitting in

1448
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:09,760
that first conversation with our state president. I

1449
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:11,714
said, look. You do know what we're doing

1450
00:49:11,714 --> 00:49:13,875
here. Right? I mean, you you're familiar with

1451
00:49:13,875 --> 00:49:16,295
us and what we do. We're not disrespectful

1452
00:49:16,355 --> 00:49:18,275
by any means, but we're some of these

1453
00:49:18,275 --> 00:49:19,635
folks are a little bit more country. We're

1454
00:49:19,635 --> 00:49:21,074
a little bit more rock and roll. Right?

1455
00:49:21,074 --> 00:49:22,835
I mean, like, you just gotta know that,

1456
00:49:22,835 --> 00:49:24,835
and he did. And and so we just

1457
00:49:24,835 --> 00:49:26,529
always pray. I mean, I think the best

1458
00:49:26,529 --> 00:49:29,250
advice for anybody, obviously, be scripturally prepared, use

1459
00:49:29,250 --> 00:49:31,170
the word a lot, let the spirit guide.

1460
00:49:31,170 --> 00:49:33,170
But, man, just pray before you teach, you

1461
00:49:33,170 --> 00:49:34,529
know, just make sure you sit in your

1462
00:49:34,529 --> 00:49:36,049
car a few more extra minutes and go,

1463
00:49:36,049 --> 00:49:37,809
you know, look, Lord, if there's something I

1464
00:49:37,809 --> 00:49:39,250
need to stay away from today, would you

1465
00:49:39,250 --> 00:49:40,724
help me to see that? And if I

1466
00:49:40,724 --> 00:49:42,644
need to throttle it up, would you tell

1467
00:49:42,644 --> 00:49:43,785
me to do that too?

1468
00:49:44,244 --> 00:49:46,184
And he will. He's always faithful.

1469
00:49:46,724 --> 00:49:48,405
And I was just, man, I just think

1470
00:49:48,405 --> 00:49:50,244
if Jesus were on the front row or

1471
00:49:50,244 --> 00:49:52,260
if president Nelson were in the front row,

1472
00:49:52,260 --> 00:49:54,500
would I be comfortable sitting down after what

1473
00:49:54,500 --> 00:49:56,340
I preached? And I always have been. And

1474
00:49:56,340 --> 00:49:57,539
so if I can do that, I'm just

1475
00:49:57,539 --> 00:49:59,940
fine. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, Gary, this is

1476
00:49:59,940 --> 00:50:01,860
this is great. So fun to connect with

1477
00:50:01,860 --> 00:50:04,500
you like this, again and hear about your

1478
00:50:04,500 --> 00:50:06,295
journey and learn from it. Any other point

1479
00:50:06,295 --> 00:50:08,375
principle story that you wanna make sure we

1480
00:50:08,375 --> 00:50:09,974
squeeze in here? How do we do? I

1481
00:50:09,974 --> 00:50:11,735
think we did great. I mean, you're you're

1482
00:50:11,735 --> 00:50:13,494
awesome, man. And I I'm so grateful for

1483
00:50:13,494 --> 00:50:14,775
what you do. And I mean that. That's

1484
00:50:14,775 --> 00:50:17,195
not just podcast host to podcast host,

1485
00:50:17,655 --> 00:50:20,250
you know, giving you props. No. I've you've

1486
00:50:20,250 --> 00:50:22,010
been a good friend to me and and

1487
00:50:22,010 --> 00:50:23,369
have listened. And what and and I would

1488
00:50:23,369 --> 00:50:24,889
say the reason is because you just listened

1489
00:50:24,889 --> 00:50:26,969
to me over the years without Yeah. Will

1490
00:50:26,969 --> 00:50:28,650
listen and not judge, I guess, is the

1491
00:50:28,650 --> 00:50:30,590
trend on social media. So, yeah, you you

1492
00:50:30,889 --> 00:50:33,855
you've listened and and not judged. I would

1493
00:50:33,855 --> 00:50:34,355
just

1494
00:50:34,735 --> 00:50:37,375
leave this thing with a with sort of

1495
00:50:37,375 --> 00:50:38,114
my simple

1496
00:50:38,574 --> 00:50:40,815
testimony. Right? And that when I think about

1497
00:50:40,815 --> 00:50:42,815
stories in this journey, I always come back

1498
00:50:42,815 --> 00:50:44,735
to kind of the same three things. Number

1499
00:50:44,735 --> 00:50:45,235
one,

1500
00:50:45,590 --> 00:50:47,610
I believe we serve God in miracles.

1501
00:50:47,989 --> 00:50:50,070
I think the book of Mormon says it

1502
00:50:50,070 --> 00:50:50,570
beautifully.

1503
00:50:50,869 --> 00:50:53,190
I think it's all throughout scripture, but I

1504
00:50:53,190 --> 00:50:54,869
always love that you didn't go to what

1505
00:50:54,869 --> 00:50:57,849
Mormon nine eleven. So 911 is the emergency.

1506
00:50:57,909 --> 00:50:59,269
The verse is, you know, we serve a

1507
00:50:59,269 --> 00:51:01,324
God in miracles. So Yeah. That's cool. We

1508
00:51:01,324 --> 00:51:02,684
serve a God of miracles. And so if

1509
00:51:02,684 --> 00:51:05,484
anybody's listening to us, if God did something

1510
00:51:05,484 --> 00:51:07,804
in the scripture for somebody that really broke

1511
00:51:07,804 --> 00:51:09,565
through for them and created a miracle, if

1512
00:51:09,565 --> 00:51:10,844
he did it for somebody, he can do

1513
00:51:10,844 --> 00:51:12,364
it for you. He can do it for

1514
00:51:12,364 --> 00:51:13,644
me. How he does that and when he

1515
00:51:13,644 --> 00:51:15,449
does it, I don't know. But I believe

1516
00:51:15,449 --> 00:51:17,469
we serve a god of miracles. Two,

1517
00:51:18,090 --> 00:51:20,329
I'm convinced that Jesus knows your name. I

1518
00:51:20,329 --> 00:51:22,570
know he knows your name. So wherever you

1519
00:51:22,570 --> 00:51:24,670
are and whatever is happening,

1520
00:51:25,130 --> 00:51:27,369
I know he sees you and I know

1521
00:51:27,369 --> 00:51:29,369
that he is very aware of what's happening.

1522
00:51:29,369 --> 00:51:31,574
You are not alone. You might think you

1523
00:51:31,875 --> 00:51:34,355
are, but you're definitely, definitely not alone. And

1524
00:51:34,355 --> 00:51:35,474
the final thing is that we're on the

1525
00:51:35,474 --> 00:51:37,315
winning side, Kurt. There's that old song we

1526
00:51:37,315 --> 00:51:38,835
used to hymn and sing in the Baptist

1527
00:51:38,835 --> 00:51:40,835
word all the time, you know, that we're

1528
00:51:40,835 --> 00:51:43,460
on the winning side, and we are. Death,

1529
00:51:43,460 --> 00:51:45,400
hell, and the grave, we're conquered by Jesus,

1530
00:51:45,539 --> 00:51:48,659
so we ultimately, this story ends well. You

1531
00:51:48,659 --> 00:51:49,779
might be in a place right now where

1532
00:51:49,779 --> 00:51:51,460
the story is not well, and I get

1533
00:51:51,460 --> 00:51:53,299
it. There might be a lot more question

1534
00:51:53,299 --> 00:51:54,980
marks in your faith journey right now than

1535
00:51:54,980 --> 00:51:56,534
periods. I completely understand

1536
00:51:57,094 --> 00:51:58,694
that. But we serve a God of miracles.

1537
00:51:58,694 --> 00:51:59,914
He knows your name,

1538
00:52:00,295 --> 00:52:00,795
and,

1539
00:52:01,174 --> 00:52:01,994
and, and, and

1540
00:52:02,295 --> 00:52:04,214
we are on the winning side. That's the

1541
00:52:04,214 --> 00:52:05,674
best thing I could share with anybody.

1542
00:52:13,449 --> 00:52:15,849
The end. That's it for this Leading Saints

1543
00:52:15,849 --> 00:52:17,849
episode. I encourage you to check out some

1544
00:52:17,849 --> 00:52:20,010
of the most popular episodes of the podcast

1545
00:52:20,010 --> 00:52:21,530
that we list at the bottom of the

1546
00:52:21,530 --> 00:52:23,609
show notes. If you haven't listened to all

1547
00:52:23,609 --> 00:52:24,954
of those, do so

1548
00:52:25,255 --> 00:52:27,735
now. Remember, up your teaching game by listening

1549
00:52:27,735 --> 00:52:32,474
to the David Farnsworth presentation by visiting leadingsaints.org/fourteen.

1550
00:52:42,710 --> 00:52:45,210
It came as a result of the position

1551
00:52:45,269 --> 00:52:48,170
of leadership which was imposed upon us

1552
00:52:48,655 --> 00:52:50,675
by the God of heaven, who brought

1553
00:52:50,974 --> 00:52:54,275
forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus

1554
00:52:54,494 --> 00:52:54,994
Christ.

1555
00:52:55,695 --> 00:52:56,675
When the declaration

1556
00:52:57,055 --> 00:52:59,315
was made concerning the only

1557
00:53:00,015 --> 00:53:02,414
true and living Church upon the face of

1558
00:53:02,414 --> 00:53:03,155
the earth,

1559
00:53:03,690 --> 00:53:06,349
we were immediately put in a position of

1560
00:53:06,489 --> 00:53:06,989
loneliness,

1561
00:53:07,369 --> 00:53:08,989
the loneliness of leadership

1562
00:53:09,609 --> 00:53:12,589
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,

1563
00:53:13,369 --> 00:53:15,769
and to which we must face up with

1564
00:53:15,769 --> 00:53:17,309
boldness and courage

1565
00:53:17,849 --> 00:53:18,670
and ability.