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Hey. Hey. If you're a newbie to Leading
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join us.
I'm again excited to welcome back Gary Miller
onto the leading saints podcast. I interviewed Gary
back in August of twenty twenty one,
and it's been a few years. He's been
on a journey. If you're not familiar with
Gary Miller story, I will definitely link to
that original
episode where we get into it and his
stories online here and there. But Gary was
a fundamentalist Baptist minister who
was used to preaching, you know, hellfire damnation
every year in his church that he planted.
And then, through all sorts of events ended
up being coming a member of the church
of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints. And
that was five years ago since that happened.
And he has been on quite a journey
of not necessarily a conversion of
theology or belief, which did happen, you know,
early on in his journey, but a conversion
of culture of figuring our people out and
our systems, our processes, how to do the
membership thing. And, obviously led him to a
path after four years of going through the
temple, being sealed to a spouse. And,
so to hear him talk about the temple
and how he frames it and the messaging
that really propelled him to the house of
the Lord is a really inspiring and remarkable.
And Gary and I were friends. And so
this is more of a view just listening
in on a conversation between two friends discussing
different dynamics and struggles and blessings and the
good, the bad, the ugly. And, I think
you'll as always benefit from Gary. I hope
to have him on more regularly
and, to share some of our conversations. I
need it has his own podcast feeds, a
couple of them that we'll link to, which
if you need more Gary Miller than his
preaching, there's definitely out there for you. So
let's get into it. Let's return back to
our conversation
with me and Gary Miller.
Alright. Nobody said I could do it, but
I got Gary Miller back in the leading
Zanes world. How are you, Gary?
I'm doing great. We need to find out
who those people are. I know. I
know. It's good to see you, man. We
were just talking in the preshow that I
was thrilled to just be back on, you
know, live camera talking to your face instead
of just texting. So nice to see you.
I know it for sure. Now over the
last since our first interview, I don't know.
That was probably,
I don't know, three years ago or something.
I don't know. I should probably look it
up for. Ever since then, I get emails
from time to time. I'd say once or
twice a year. Hey. What happened to that
Gary guy?
That's right. You know, what what's his story?
Where's he ended up? Right? Because you you've
had some great online
content that you produce, and you've been active
on social media here and there. But, you
know, there's a season for all things. And
so maybe just bring people up to speed.
Like, what have you been up to? What's
life like? Well, again, thanks for having me,
first of all. Appreciate it. Yeah. So
life is good. And,
yes, I think a a common question that
I get sometimes still
with it'll come in the mailbox of either
one of my podcasts now is, you know,
well, are you still a member of the
church? I'm like, well,
I'm trying to figure out, like, what did
I signal that gave you the impression that
I wasn't? But, yes, that was still still
obviously
part of the church
and very actively so.
My wife and our and our family,
has been through, like anybody else, a journey
of our own, and it's it's ran at
different paces spiritually throughout the last five years.
We just celebrated
our five year anniversary in the church about
three days ago. Oh, wow.
That's good. We crossed over half a decade
officially. That sounds like legit when you say
it that way. But,
so
but, no, we've we've certainly recently, I would
say in the last, you know, probably four
or five months,
have been,
you know, very involved and very active. And
that's the sort of nature of our callings
now and stuff like that. But, really, I
I think
our family is very
solid and happy. I I still have, for
those that don't remember, I have three daughters
and a and a son. So basically, my
life is controlled chaos most of the time,
and
none of that has changed. So, yeah, I'm
just obviously, man, come on. It's the same
stuff. I'm excited about Jesus. I talk about
him all the time on, you know, two
different podcasts and two kind of different niches
and and always excited to talk to others
who are into the same thing. So, yeah,
I think it's good, man. That's great. That's
awesome. So, obviously, we've had, like you know,
we've been in touch here and there, you
know, at various points and had phone calls.
Some are kinda
interesting phone calls, like, of struggle. I think
a lot of people, we like to, you
know, make a conversion process into our faith,
like a story book. Right? You you get
baptized, there's a moment and you get the
baptism pictures and then, you know, you get
a calling, you get the priesthood and then
you, you know, a year later you're going
through the temple and it's just like, isn't
this awesome? Right? And we can make the
the perfect, three minute video online of that.
But there's a sometimes it just gets messy,
especially someone with your background who has led
churches and been involved on those top levels.
Right? And then suddenly, you're trying to navigate
this new path that maybe isn't as familiar
to you. Right? I mean, how how would
you describe just that journey of of ups
and downs? I think one of the things
I found myself telling Crystal,
my wife, I you know, many times in
the last five years was
sometimes I thought our background was a real
detriment.
You know, it didn't really help. But some
of the time, because you're coming from a,
in many cases, a very different world.
And Mhmm. I think probably more the differences
are more sort of cultural, and they're also
more in language.
Just the way
you talk about the faith. Yeah. Similar words,
often very different definitions at times. And so
that process of learning
a new language of how we talk about
faith, the new system of it, a new
culture of it in terms of how it
gathers, how it worships, what it looks like,
sounds like, that kind of thing.
Certainly,
that has had its moments over the years
where it's it's all the things that we
would expect. There's been great moments. There's been
plenty of frustrating ones, and there's been a
lot of stuff that's, I think, been just
kinda meh. Right? I think what you said
about conversion stories conversion stories drive me a
little bonkers.
I I'm not really a fan of them
because they're again, I love what you said
about the three minute clip. I mean, there's
so much stuff on the cutting room floor
that you're missing. Yeah. And so it's easy
to get sort of the cheap amens from
the crowd when you go, you know, five
years ago. I am a I was an
independent fundamental baptist who became a Latter day
Saint. Everybody's like, yay. You know, and and
that's good, and I'm with it. But at
the same time, there's so much that goes
on behind the scenes in that when you're
trying to kind of understand,
okay, so now you're a Latter day Saint.
Now what? You know, what does that mean?
And how do you kinda walk in and
out of that week over week? So a
lot of it, once it's to your back
to your example, if you get the baptism
pictures and you're you know, now you're there,
I think so much of it was,
okay. Now we're just in normal practice week
over week, and that is
often,
that's not
some thrilling
super spiritual experience
week over week. And it's also not dramatically
negative
or
positive either. It just a lot of time,
we'll just kinda ride the middle of the
road, and you have some ups and you
have some downs.
The equilibrium
status of that is just, you know, you're
kinda just getting in the rhythm of doing
this week over week. And I think it
just takes time to figure that out. And,
you know, I tell people all the time,
you know, everybody's gonna kinda run this race
at their own pace
regardless of how much you want them. I
mean, it took me four years and months
to get into the door of a temple.
Everybody's gonna run this at a different pace.
I mean but
God sorts it out, and that's not up
for you and I to kinda control the
gas. We just try to stay in the
car long enough to get where we're going.
He's gonna take it, and Yeah. We'll figure
it out. Yeah. I'm curious, like, you know,
as we talk about conversion and commitment, I
am sort of
realizing this, and correct me if I'm wrong,
maybe in the general Christian world, but we
have a different way of emphasizing in our
faith. I actually just interviewed yesterday, which I
think this will release before this episode, but
I interviewed the rabbi of the Jewish rabbi
that lives in Utah County. Right? The most
Latter day Saint County probably in the church
or BYU is. And and I asked him
this question of, like because we have such
a tradition of, like, standing and bearing a
testimony or articulating our commitment to our faith
or why we are are committed. And I
sort of asked him that, like, why do
you or how do you, you know, process
that, like, your commitment? Why do you believe?
And he sort of looked at me like,
I don't really know what you're saying. And
it was really telling. I don't think I
fully understand the dynamic happening there, but we
sort of have this, tradition or a culture
of, like, tell us the moment you were
in. And then then sure there's often a
moment or there's often stories behind that of
faith development and commitment, but then it kinda
gets fuzzy when we're because that's where people
are at. Like, so are you still you
still in? You still at? Are you are
you out? You're in? Or, like, where are
you at? We we kinda make it very
binary. I don't know. What comes to mind?
We do make it binary. I mean, I
I I think so an old mentor of
mine used to tell the story about when
he was ordained. So in the in the
Baptist world, you get ordained. Normally, depending on
the the leg of Baptist you're in, you
go before, like, an elders board or a
board that's gonna kind of, like, run you
through the paces of basics of the faith.
Are you not you don't hold any kind
of theologically crazy views? And and one of
the questions that they ask him, he shares
a story and I love it. You know,
they're like, well, when was the moment that
you knew that, you know, you were saved?
And I love this. His answer was like,
I'm not sure. I don't know if there
was a moment.
I'm literally working on this thing every day.
So I I think that for me, when
when I've had people say things to me
about it or when we talk about
conversion
I think interestingly enough in our tradition,
clearly, our leaders talk about conversion being an
ongoing process,
yet often members talk about it as this
one time event. I think that's one of
the one of those gaps that is a
bit puzzling. But
I am someone that thinks
every morning I wake up,
I'm trying to figure out, alright, how do
I do this thing a little bit better
than I did it yesterday?
But I I think I don't ever
I'm never under the and I this might
sound strong, but I I'm never under the
delusion that I found it. I'm always looking
because as long as I'm looking, that means
out of my mind's open, my heart's open,
my eyes are open, my ears are open.
Arrival theology concerns me. You know? So, yep,
I've arrived. Yep. We've got it. We've got
all the stuff. We've figured it out. I
mean, that seems dangerously on the on the
edge of pride and and all kinds of
stuff happens from there. And then as a
result, what you just said, then we sort
of rack and stack ourselves and everybody else's
the ins and the outs. And then we
we sort of make weird distinctions, and we
go, well, if someone's sitting in that pew
every Sunday, well, they're active.
No. They're not. That's attendance. That has nothing
to do with being active
versus also, you know, if someone's not there,
we make these assumptions like, are they still
in? Like, this in and out stuff, I
think, is often antithetical to the gospel. I
don't the gospel I read is not so
much an ins and outs thing as it
is a all of us are in this
thing together. We're on different points in the
journey, and give it long enough, you'll have
high moments and low moments and middle moments.
And so
I conversion is a funny thing. I I
get in our world of of reels and
sixty second TikToks that, you know, you want
a story that kinda hits, and I understand
the utility in that from a marketing and
messaging standpoint.
But, again, there's so much more to it
than just, you know one day I had
it and I just knew that, you know,
this was true or this or the other
thing. I'm waking up every day hoping that
I can understand why it is true or
why it is working, but I I never
get the sense that I found it. Yeah.
No. I'm just, from my perception and the
phone calls we've had and the connections and
conversations we've we've had, I've never and correct
me if I'm wrong, but I've never since
this struggle as far as the conversion, you
know, going back to that term, the conversion
with the theology or the doctrine
or even the book of Mormon,
but there was definitely a
struggle with the conversion to the culture. Right.
Which
we're really good at this. Not converted. So
in that sense And and I wanna go
there. Like, so I'm curious if we got
a time machine, went back to, you know,
Gary on year one or, you know, the
first six months. And we're because, unfortunately, but
fortunately, because I because I love hearing your
story. I loved how you shared it so
much. You even came on this podcast and
shared a little bit. Like, you were kind
of given celebrity status for a a blip
of time. Mhmm. And that maybe
really
changed the experience and made it very unique
than maybe other people's journey. So if you're
to go back in time just to with
the hindsight that you have and the the
wisdom you have, like, what would you tell
yourself in those first six months of of
converting to this faith? Don't do
podcasts.
That's number one. Don't post anything about it.
Don't say anything about it. Don't record about
it. If you do,
save it in a folder in Google Drive
and about six to twelve months later, then
go ahead and put it all up. If
you relisten to it and you're happy with
it, that's fair game. I think this goes
back what is it? The the sort of
famous
reformed apologist James White was the first guy
ever heard talk about the cage stage. Have
you ever talked to you about the cage
stage? So that I don't think so. Yeah.
The so the cage stage is when you
first in their community, when you first get
a hold of proper reform doctrine like TULIP,
like, you know, total depravity, unconditional election, whatever.
And you you first learn that stuff, you
tend to wanna go out and try to
blast it all over everybody all the time.
Right? Just tell the world. And you're so
new that you're well intentioned, but you can
kinda hurt yourself or hurt others or mess
up the whole process because you're talking too
soon, and it's kind of mucking everything up.
And so I would say in my case,
even though I think the reason I started
recording early was because I came from a
cadence of preaching three times a week, and
I needed to teach. Like, I didn't know
what it was like to not. Yeah. Like,
this whole sit in the back, and you
might get called on once every six months
or something. Like, what is that? Like, I'm
I'm used to Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday
night, you're preaching fifty minutes a hit, like,
every
week, month over month. And so I was
just used to that. So coming into the
podcast space right away was really part of
it was self preservation because I needed to
keep my chops up. I mean, you you
don't use it, you lose it. And so
I wanted to make sure that I kept
my preaching cadence up. But early on, I
would say,
stay out of the side of it that
is,
hey. We got this guy about his conversion
story.
Because as well intentioned as that is and
I believe every show I was on and
interviewed on, especially this one, you know I
love your stuff, so that's easy. Yeah. Yeah.
But, like, I think everyone was well intentioned,
but I think
it was
makes
the focus of what's happening on the wrong
thing
in some ways. And I just I think
that is a ultimately, a pretty deeply personal
experience that probably needs more solitude,
reflection, and contemplation,
and less
syndication
sharing and retweeting.
You know? I Yeah. I think that's a
that's a thing that you and, also,
I've said it whether you were coming this
way into, like, becoming a Latter day Saint
or you were becoming a traditional Latin mass
Catholic, whatever, like, you're gonna have to take
some time to learn what that means to
be that week over week. And so it's
very hard and you you just have to
kinda it's not that you need to sit
in silence, but I I do think you
need to you just kinda have to learn
the rhythm so that you can assess it
a little bit more accurately.
I think early on, I was certainly more
critical of some of the cultural stuff. I
still have plenty of criticism about that, but
I reserve that for different settings and for
different kind of things. I reserve that for
conversations with my wife or the secret place
of prayer or reflection,
and then I start trying to figure out
what is the little difference or little wave
that I can make in it positively.
Part of it, I think, is some weird
form of penance, frankly, that I have to
deal with some of that stuff that drives
me crazy, and somehow I've gotta navigate it
without losing my mind. But, yeah, that's what
I think. Early on, I what would I
do differently? I would be a little quieter
early
to kind of assess and let it start
sinking in what's happening
because there's gonna be so much new that's
going on. And part of that new is
great, part of that new is weird, part
of the new is just like, what? And
I think those reactions, those experiences are better
dealt with in the classroom of silence than
in the echo chamber noise capital of social
media or podcast.
Yeah. And it's tricky because I would imagine
on one side, you have the community that
sort of feels like you're abandoning them or
you're leaving them. Right. You're Baptist,
traditional Christian community. And so don't want to
keep them in the dark about what's happening,
but,
and then you have this new faith you're
coming into where you're excited about. You wanna
learn, you wanna make connections. And
but what I'm picking up, what you're saying
is like making it a little bit quieter
or more private of an experience
than I don't know. I mean,
because I guess you don't wanna,
you know, fool the people who who think
you're still just, you know, going to the
Baptist church and you're doing the thing. Right?
So it's tricky though. Right? Because you can't
it needs to be somewhat of a private,
you know, paced experience.
Yeah. I I think you everybody's gonna have
to kinda find their own balance with that.
And
I don't think about it as much now
because, obviously, I've got more
foundation under me now after five years of
this thing, and I think I've kind of
at least got a basic sense of, you
know, where to stand and where to sit
and,
you know, who's who and what's what. You
know, I I've gotten most of the terms
down. Right?
But, yeah, I I just as I reflect
back on it as if I'm being sort
of in my trying to be in my
best thinking,
I would just say slow down
and really kinda take all that in. I
would also say that to anybody who's in
investigator mode. I know that's counterintuitive
advice. I would say slow down.
You know, there's a natural inertia and a
real seduction to kinda let's go, go, go,
go, go.
I think that the answer is to slow
things down,
not to delay or not
to dabble, but I think to kind of
take it in and be intentional.
One of my concerns in my own life
is that I I'm so kind of chronically
fast moving and high strung and, you know,
kind of always at it that I'm not
as intentional as I would like to be.
And I think in my best moments, I'm
intentional. In my worst moments, I'm fast. Fast
to react, fast to judge, fast to respond,
fast to, you know, whatever. And and so,
yeah, in this conversion thing and how you
do that early, I'm not suggesting we all
need to go be monastics and, like, live
out in a cabin and, you know, churn
butter and, you know, go on silent retreats
for months. But I do think there's something
to
let me just learn what it means to
be part of this thing for better or
worse. There's gonna be both. And then let
me take stock six to twelve months later,
and those are arbitrary numbers. I get it.
But, you know, like, let me take some
stock later and go, okay. Where are we?
Alright. How do I feel about this? And
kinda move on from there. Yeah. You know,
the word that stood out to me as
you you were talking there is is this
concept of having a foundation where you had
the conversion early on, but there maybe wasn't
a foundation to really drill into.
And so there's a lot maybe a lot
of, whiplash going on. Like, wait a minute.
What just happened? And you want me to
I don't get it. Like and Yeah. You
still have to sort of be perceived as,
like, no. But you're in now. So this
is should be you shouldn't have a problem
with this. Right? So We should stop the
notion that, oh, you're in now. So we
believe all this stuff. Right? And we just
not know that Yeah. I'm in now means
that whatever in means. I don't even know
what that means. I mean, that's so subjective,
but people are gonna pick this stuff up
at different paces. And the notion that there's
any of us that are sitting here and
go, yep. Oh, I've got it now. Like,
all of it? Really? You've got all of
it, and you love all of it, and
you believe all of it? That's crazy. No.
You don't. Be more reflective. Be more honest
and say, no. There's a bunch of things
I do believe. There's some things that I'll
put on the the shelf of eventually, hopefully.
And then there's some stuff that you go,
no. I just I don't buy that, but
I've got enough over here in the bank
account balance of belief
that it's bigger than the stuff that I
go. I just don't buy that. There are
things that I don't buy. I mean, I
still don't sign off on, and and I
haven't been particularly convinced theologically or otherwise to
go, yeah. That's oh. Amen.
But they're not so many or big that
it stops me from continuing to progress. And
I think that's something all of us can
kinda reflect on. Sorry. I didn't mean to
step on you there. I just No. That's
great. And that's what I was getting after.
I'm just curious if they're, like, when you
talk about that foundation
or, like, maybe there's an a specific example
of, like, that journey of, like, early on,
you were like, man, I I have a
hard time sitting with this or
but now it's sort of like I'm I've
gotten there. You know? Does anything specific come
to mind that you'd wanna share? Well, I
naturally, the first thing that comes to mind
is any and all things temple, which, I
mean, I don't wanna get to get on
a big whole conversation about that. That's not
the purpose of this. But I I think
that what frustrated me for the longest time,
early in the beginning of it, it was
I couldn't make scriptural sense out of what
these folks were talking about because I'm going
chapter and verse people. I mean, I'm an
I'm an independent fundamental baptist guy. Right? So
we're chapter and verse on everything. It's very
simple. Like Yeah. Chapter and verse. And they're
like, well, you know, and I was getting
a lot of ish.
And then so that was ish was frustrating.
Yeah. Then we moved from
ish to the messaging was often kind of
mysterious and woo. Right? So it was like,
you know, when I go to the temple,
I just feel, and there's a lot of
feeling talk. And I'm like, okay. I have
no doubt that you feel things, but this
is a very large
sort of chasm I'm trying to get across
here, and feelings are not helping me get
across the gap from where I'm going to
where we wanna go. And
then it finally I think what
really pushed that over the the top for
us foundationally
was I remember I finished teaching something. It
might have been on a podcast or might
have just been a family home evening with
with the kids and stuff. And I I
remember saying to Crystal,
you know, there's this huge percentage of the
Latter day Saint experience that revolves around the
temple that we still haven't even been in.
And it would seem to me, if we're
gonna make a bunch of sort of larger
judgments or have some opinions about all this,
I think we need all the data before
we can really effectively do that. Like, when
we're missing a whole ton of data because
we've never been to this place and done
all this stuff. And so it was much
more then then when I made it practical
like that, I was like, okay. Well, this
I can make some logical sense of this.
And then
we the best thing someone did for me,
so take notes anybody who's listening to this.
If you got anybody that's either hesitant about
temple stuff or hasn't been in a while
or whatever, Like, this was the best thing.
Our our area 70 took myself and my
wife and his wife, and we went up
to visit the temple. Because I had a
I mean, I we obviously had a recommend.
We could go in, but I mean, it
was, you know, they took us in and
we got to meet the temple president. We
got to walk around and see, like, baptistry
and the basic inside and, like, of the,
like, the the lobby and, like, where things
were, the basic stuff that we could see.
And just having those conversations
in the building in a little chapel off
from the, you know, entrance,
I was like, okay.
Alright. A,
someone's talking to me and it's not mysticism.
B,
somebody briefed them because they use some scripture
when they talk to me. I'm like, alright.
Excellent.
And Yeah. There was a personal connection.
And so now when you can marry
theology
and the more, you know, the scripture dense
stuff and heavy topics
with a personal connection with real people,
then I think you formed an interesting foundation
that you can do business on. And what?
A week later, we were in the temple,
and two weeks after that, we were sealed
and then, you know, off and running. So
foundationally,
I think for us, what worked
as an example, you you asked for one
with the temple is just simply
marrying together all the scripture stuff that we're
so passionate about, but getting connected with people
that were just speaking in a normal way.
I mean, you know this. I mean, you've
been around the block a lot longer than
I have in this world.
People have a funny way of just talking
really just making things weird when they don't
need to be weird. Are you with me?
Do you know what I'm talking about? Sure.
Sure. Yeah. I mean,
don't make it weird.
You could just have a normal conversation with
somebody and man, what is it? I mean,
one of the apostles for crying out loud
was, you know, talks about what is it,
normal and natural ways, right, when you're extending
invitations.
Right? We talk about, you know, inviting people.
Well, just talk normal. Just talk natural, like,
regular stuff. That will help build that foundation
and and overcomes a lot of obstacles.
You know what? Scripture says love covers a
multitude of sins. Right? Love covers a multitude
of weird. Like, you don't have to make
it weird. Just have those conversations. They create
a foundation and off you go. Yeah. And
does it now that I expect you to
sort of unpack a sermon on on temple
with scripture and verse, but, sure, curious, like,
how like, what did did dig in unpack
that a little bit more for us as
far as what were some of those connections
that sort of made the temple,
like, maybe more of a logical thing to
do rather than just some mystical thing or
getting into a place where you're like, okay.
I can lean in. Yeah. I well, I
think
so I spent a lot of time
back in the day in my, you know,
academic pursuits
as a guy starting a church plant studying
the old testament,
like, sort of formally. Right? And
if you spend any time doing that and
then you wanna talk about something like the
endowment,
you're gonna be able to put some things
together there in a way that is not
some giant breach.
So I would just say that it started
clicking for me. Again, I think it started
with people having a normal conversation with me
about it. And it's, like, it's my passion
now, like, one of my hidden passions, I
guess. Like, if I ever
get the opportunity to talk to somebody who's
never been, who's, like, working to or, like,
trying to figure out how to go, like,
my mission is just to talk normal about
it. Like, as normal and as simple as
I can, that works so much better. But,
yeah, I think my background in old testament
stuff, super helpful. And then the people that
I was doing this with,
I'm an amazing temple president who every other
word out of his mouth when I was
meeting with him in his office was Jesus.
I'm like, we're home. Like, you make this
thing about Jesus, I'll call him to the
top of the building and just do whatever
you want me to do. Like, if you
make it about a bunch of other things,
you're probably gonna lose me if it doesn't
bring us home. And, I mean, look, I
just recently taught this at our Saturday session
at a state conference, you know. Look, the
Book of Mormon is a Jesus book. The
temple is a Jesus place.
That's it. Like, you're like, well, what well,
what about that? I'm like, no. No. No.
No. No. That's it. What's the Book of
Mormon? It's a Jesus book. What's the temple?
It's a Jesus place. If you get that
straight, you're good. Yeah. Yeah. Each is their
own testament of of Jesus Christ. Right? One
says it on the from the front of
the book. The other says it outside the
building. The holiness to the Lord. Right? That's
it. Yeah. That's powerful. That's really good. And
I think I remember
my nephew
going through, you know, before his mission and
greeting him in the sluster room. And I
said this the simplest thing I could say
was you're now married to Jesus. You know?
This is you've had a ceremony
that connects you to him on a more
personal level and,
on a more committed level. And just like
I I did so with,
you know, my marriage. Like, the reason I
went through a marriage ceremony, you know, apart
from the temple and ceiling was I wanted
to show that I'm in a deeper relationship
with my wife. And, now you are in
a deeper relationship with Jesus. And, that's beautiful
rather than and I get what you're saying.
Sometimes we go to this place of, like,
you get power from the temple and your
life goes better. And it's like, well, what
I don't what do you mean? Like, where
do those points meet? You know, what does
that look like? Or
when there's maybe better ways to just talk
straightforwardly about it? Absolutely. I think often we
a lot of people I've talked to about
it about the temple, it's just frankly, it's
kind of oversold
on the wrong benefits in my view. Like
you were saying, it's it's and, again, I
can't step into what someone's personal experience is,
so maybe they did have seven angels visit
them in the hallway or whatever.
That that's quite possible. I don't know. But
what I can say is that yeah. I
just think the way we message things is
a larger conversation that is important. And when
I say message things, just how we talk
about this stuff.
I'm kind of secretly on this mission
to if I'm talking to folks about the
faith and about this stuff, I want it
to be, a, focused on Jesus, b, I
want it to be super simple. Mhmm. And
and, c, I don't want to oversell it.
I think we need to allow
the Holy Spirit to do the work on
people's hearts. Mhmm. We don't have to convince
or twist or embellish or
and again, when people may or may not
do that, I don't think they're doing it
from a bad place. I just think that
that it it's not helpful.
It sometimes is part of that cultural language
stuff. Right? It's sort of part of the
tropes that we all say, you know,
whatever the pat line is. And I get
every cultural in every organization has its tropes.
It's part of the script. Right? I understand.
Yeah. But I don't think that's really helpful
in the work of discipleship
in house, and I don't think it's
helpful at all in the work of evangelism.
So I just I think if we really
look at
you know, if if we just take the
New Testament, pop it out, and look at,
you know, these very simple core messages,
I think we can stick to that and
we'll be fine in terms of how we
message. But often, I think some of my
biggest frustrations you're talking about, you know, going
back to the beginning, you know, what what
has been challenging or how would you change
it? Well, I would say at least half
of every frustration I've had has been about
messaging.
And so, you know, just how we're talking,
I'm like, what are you talking about? Like
and so I'm on this quest in my
own life because that's the only life I
can, you know, work on as that's, you
know, just how do I message
in a way that is
authentic and simple and Jesus focused. Because, unfortunately,
we're just talking about the temple. I mean,
so often, well intentioned
people who I know love the lord would
talk to me about 17 things about the
temple and nowhere out of their mouth did
I hear Jesus. And I'm like, this is
gonna be a problem for me. So, you
know Yeah. I think we just need to
be careful. Yeah. I often say it's one
thing to believe the gospel,
but it's a whole another thing to be
able to articulate the gospel, right, in a
way that's really Of course.
Right? And you're you're right on that. It
can be that messaging there. So, I mean,
if, let's say, you run into one of
your old Baptist friends and you're like, hey.
Great that you're on this path, but, like,
man, what's with the temple? Like, why so
much focus on the temple? Like, is there
a way not to put you on the
spot here, but I am. I mean, how
would you articulate that? How would you message
that to maybe someone outside our faith that's,
still Christian? Yeah. I mean, if if someone
wanted to ask about, you know, what's up
with the temple or why do you go,
my answer would probably be super simple.
I would just say I am always interested
in getting an opportunity
to visit with Jesus in a way
that connects me not just to the person
of Jesus, but to the principles of Jesus.
Mhmm. Because I think those are two very
different things. I think they're both really important.
Where I come from, you know, a lot
about the person of Jesus, work of salvation,
eternal security of believer, etcetera. But the principles
of Jesus are really, really important. If you
love me, you'll do what? You'll believe in
me. No. That's not what it says. It
says you'll keep my commandments.
Mhmm. And I'm you're gonna have to get
these principles right. So I'm very interested in
the person and the principles of Jesus. And
I can't if we're talking about
a physical
get up and go
and have sort of high church, the temple
is the place to do that. This is
the temple is really our I don't know
if you've ever been to a proper
Latin mass. Have you ever been to, like,
a high mass, like, Latin mass? I've been
to a few Catholic funerals where, you know,
there's some We we did in that a
little bit. Yeah. We need to get you
to a Latin mass. It's impressive. But the
point is is, like, you go there, that's
that's high church for them. Right? Mhmm. This
is, like, proper
ceremonial ritual.
Like, we're not messing around. Right?
Yeah. This is kind of in our I'm
not saying these things are equivalent. They're they're
different and great in their own ways. The
point is is that when we go there,
we're moving from low church, and that's not
a negative thing. That's, you know, week over
week sitting in your ward, which is graphically
sort of vanilla. There's not a lot on
the walls. It's all very kind of simple.
You're moving into a place that even visually,
the moment you walk up, you know
we're now entering into a different space,
and your entire worship posture changes,
your orientation changes. Nobody needs to tell you
to whisper when you walk in there. You
just know that you're in a different place.
Right? Like, they're in a there's an assign.
Like, you just you walk in, you know.
And so I would just say to that
person again, yeah, I wanna go to a
place where I can learn about the principles
and the person of Jesus. I wanna do
that in a way that is sort of
high church. I wanna experience something that is
not every day.
And, you know, you don't go to the
temple every day, I guess, unless you work
there. I mean, I don't go to the
temple every day, but, like, it's something that
you go when you do and and you
know you're doing business with God in a
different way. And that's very interesting. Yeah. And
that really I feel like just from my
own experience in
observing human nature, like, that does something for
the human psyche of, you know, God could
have come to Moses in a tent where
he sleeps and just says, hey, I've got
some things to teach you, but just that
place of move, like physically going to a
place that's closer to him. It shifts the
dynamic in a way that's really important. Right?
To go to Ichurch. Yeah. It's an important
part of the the idea of worship. I
think
when you're going, you have to get in
the car, go.
You might wear some different things than you're
normally aware. You might do some things that
you don't normally do. Like, this is putting
us in an environment and in a posture
of worship
Mhmm. That is not a casual experience.
Yeah. Much of what we do as Christians
in
general can be remarkably casual,
can be sort of
redundant and day by day monotonous. You know,
just checking stuff, and we all can fall
into this.
When we have to go and kinda do
when we get to go and do this
thing,
it's a it's a different experience. We're moving
from a sort of casual or, hey. Yeah.
You know? And now we're moving into a
place where alright.
Like, we're not again, I use a very
simple thing. We're just we're not messing around
now. Like, you come out of the, and
I'm not revealing anything here that I shouldn't.
I mean, you you come out of the
changing room, it's on. Like Yeah. We're not
messing around. Yeah. Like, so
that's it. There's something to that. There's a
gravity to that that has some weight to
it
that gives our
frankly, gives our theology, gives our experience a
little bit more teeth. It's not so
just
vague or,
you know, just kind of, again, the normal
stuff. It gives it Yeah. It gives it
some heft that I think is
useful
in a walk every day and every week
where all of us are parents or married
or have kids or dogs or cats or
callings or whatever. You need all the help
that you can get, and sometimes you gotta
go to,
you know, a a really serious place to
get serious help. And so that's a good
place to go to get it. Anything else
about the temple that you wanna make sure
we mention? Or I mean, I'm I'm totally
the la I'm the least qualified person to
talk about the temple. I I it took
me four years to get there. So
every other guest that you've ever had knows
more. I just happen to
that it is centrally a Jesus place. And
if nothing else,
get in the door and find a place
to sit anywhere, and you're gonna encounter Jesus
in a very unique way. That would be
my best counsel. I love it. I love
it. You alluded to your to your calling.
What's your current calling right now? I'm on
part of the Stake High Council. Nice. How
long has that been going on?
Four months.
Oh, nice. Ish. So and maybe I haven't
I've got so many questions. Like, what has
been some of the different callings you've had
over the last five years? None that were
very I didn't have a lot of callings
at all. I mean, truthfully,
early on,
I did some stuff with
Super Young Men. So not primary, but somewhere
in between, call that? I don't know. Like
the nursery or No. Not the nursery. It
was, like, somewhere yeah. Like, it was well,
no. It was primary, I guess. But I
was teaching. I was co teaching, you know,
doing that kind of thing. And then I
was, like, an assistant
ward mission leader for about half a second,
and then I was a state high council.
Cool. And but I go back, like, early
on, like, I was you know, I I
love the different episodes and the content that
you created online, and and it was definitely,
like, an avenue
for you to release some of that pent
up, you know, pastoral energy that you had
to share the gospel Still does. Get into
the book. Right? Yep. And so I don't
know how else you would do that. Like,
right? I mean, it's hard to just put
that away
in this new journey.
So, I mean but would you still do
it that way? Or Well, I can tell
you. I mean, in the last two weeks,
I've probably produced
12 new episodes of preaching.
Okay. So, I mean, I preach at a
very rapid cadence still.
And I do that because,
one,
I think I've I have heard from a
lot of people over the last five years
that
appreciate
a more maybe animated style of preaching the
bible. And all that is is just me
doing like, this isn't
horrible self promotion here. Here's the point. So,
like,
one line of my teaching is the hope
in him today podcast. Right? So you know
about that. And and
I just re put that back online, like,
three weeks ago. Oh, great. And that is
just line by line bible teaching. So if
you closed your eyes
and you didn't know about any of this,
you'd just be like, oh, yeah. Pastor Miller's
preaching. So it's cool. Like, anybody can come
there and it's safe place, and they're not
gonna hear anything weird. And it's you know,
that's just bible teaching all day long. Yeah.
I'll send you a link, Kurt. You should
leave me a review or something. Good grief.
So
so, yeah, that's that side. The other side
is I do a podcast called Outside the
Lane, which is, you know, faith beyond our
own kind of tradition. So I'm we're learning
from charismatics and Catholics and Muslims and all
kinds of people, and it's fantastic because I
love those conversations.
Because I'm I get very concerned when anything
of us think we own the franchise on
God. That makes me very, very nervous. Yeah.
Yeah.
So in either one of those,
I'm recording still three or four episodes a
week just because
people have reached out and have said, you
know, they appreciate the style and they appreciate
the sort of directness of that, and it
encourages them and motivates them. And but I've
had to I mean, I've certainly had to
refine that a bit over the years, and
I have a big old fat disclaimer obviously
on my podcast now that's like, look. I'm
I'm not endorsed by anybody.
I'm not endorsing anybody. This is just one
guy talking about Jesus.
Hit play at your own peril. I know,
you know, you're at risk. And
most importantly,
the scriptures, the secret place of prayer, and
being connected to a local church community is
much more important than a podcast. So use
this as a supplement, not as the main
thing. I say it every single episode. And
so that helps me
kind
of balance it so that, you know, I
don't confuse myself thinking I'm still the pastor
of the Narragate Baptist Church. But it also
allows me to teach in a way that
keeps my chops up and I'm always excited
to talk about the scripture. So yeah. Yeah.
Do you find yourself more and more like
I mean, do you feel more and more
comfortable with, like, Book of Mormon scripture, Doctor
and Governance type of stuff that you work
that in or you try and just keep
this more just, traditional Christian?
Now
on Hope and Him, I just teach bible
stuff. I used to teach a ton of
Book of Mormon stuff,
but
I think for what I what is interesting
to me
over on outside the lane, obviously, I talk
about the Book of Mormon. I talk about
all kinds of scriptures.
I mean, I've spent the last
year and a half, for example, really studying
the Quran, for example.
And so I love talking about that stuff
over there. So outside the lane, we you'll
hear about more of that kind of stuff.
Over on Hope and Him, I just think
that it's I also it's weird, Kurt. So
here's the thing. If you start talking
Book of Mormon D and C, it's the
funniest thing. I've been preaching bible online, like,
podcasts and stuff since, like, the first days
of narrow gate, right, the church.
And I I never would hear from people,
like, much about like, I would never get
the but also emails. Oh, I heard you
preaching, but, you know, also, that verse could
be in this or whatever. The moment I
would put up Book of Mormon or DNC
stuff,
like, I would get
so many
emails and stuff about, like, well, you know,
this could also mean this, or you're bringing
a little too much of your Baptist into
this. I'm like, well, maybe you need some
more of my Baptist. You know? Like, I
mean so I just said, we're gonna kinda
partition these in a way
so that
it will make it easier. If people wanna
take in that stuff that's more, again, ditzy
or Book of Mormon particularly, which I have
a I just love and have been reading
every day for years. I have no problem
talking about that on Outside the Lane. Just
over an open hymn, I keep it more
biblically centric just to kinda divide those things
up a little bit, but it's not, You
know? You talk to me any day of
the week. If you want me to teach
Book of Mormon, you could drop me in
front of anybody. We'll we'll sling it. That's
not a problem.
And what what's the experience been like just
on the high council? I assume you you
speak a lot more in different words in
your stake? Yeah. I do, which I'm very
grateful for. I mean, I think that was
one of the things that I serve under
a really good stake president. And so he
was very understanding of the dilemma that I'm
like, man, I I'm used to preaching a
lot. So
he was
he got that, and so I do get
to speak a lot more.
And
so I'm, again, grateful for that. And it's
so interesting as you visit different wards to
see certainly how similar they are, but how
different they can be as well. The view
from up there when you're sitting there waiting
to go up,
I mean, just from the way people sing
hymns is so radically different word to word.
I don't know if that is in your
world out there. Maybe Utah or whatever is
different. But No. But something else in this.
Yeah. But it's wild.
Like, I'll be sitting in one and everybody's,
like, super reserved. And, like, I mean, you
could light a bomb off in the thing
and nobody would move. And then you got
others, man. I mean, literally, first word, first
verse, that organ kicks. And I mean, they're
full throated singing. I'm like, alright now.
Alright. Well, God's people said amen. And we're
preaching now. I mean, they're they're fired up.
And I love that. Because I mean, look,
if I look, this is preacher school one
on one.
Half of the effectiveness of your sermons and
your teaching has to do with how good
the crowd is. Like, if you're teaching to
a dead crowd, you can have the best
message in the world. It doesn't matter.
You can be in front of a crowd
that's really engaged and lit up and fired
up. You can preach a message that's not
even half as good, and, I mean, it'll
just hit.
And so, I mean, it's a cool experience
for me because I have you know, I've
had the opportunity to teach in front of
rooms that are a little bit more subdued,
which is a struggle because I'm like, man,
shout it. But then there are others. It's
funny. I'll be up there and I'll be
in the middle of teaching. I'll be, you
know, because it's what every other paragraph I'll
be up there shouting, you know, amen. And
I'll have some I'll hear somebody to my
left and the bishop are going, amen. I'm
like, alright. That's right. So you can you
can tell there's there's just differences in different
places, and that's cool. I think this church
in general is a lot more diverse than
we like to admit or that we showcase.
There's a lot of different kind of believers
in this place, and I wish we could
could hear from more of them because I
think sometimes we all try to be the
same kind of believer. I don't think that's
what this where this church shines. I think
this church shines when you see the different
kind of believers and the people that are
in the back and the people that are
sitting out in the foyer and the man,
there's some really interesting
and talented
and
fired up Jesus people,
but I think sometimes
they're trying so hard to conform to look
like everybody else that they're missing their message
and all of us are missing their message.
We could learn a lot from those folks.
And so Yeah. Yeah. It's it's cool getting
the chance to go to different places because
you you definitely see not all wards are
the same
and, in terms of their energy and their
culture, but, you know, Jesus finds his way
to every one of them. So it's good.
Yeah. Do you feel like when you're speaking
and, you know, as as a high councilor,
like, do you feel like you're back in
the in the saddle of preaching, or do
you do you shift your cadence a little
bit just because of the the nature of
of that setting? Or I've had to really
tone it down. I mean, I I do
tone it down to a certain degree. I
mean, it depends on the room. I think,
you know, for those of us that have
had to sit you know, sat up there
and gotten up to preach every week for
a long time, you can kinda read a
room. I mean, you kinda know if, you
know, what you can kinda push and what
you can. And I would say,
yeah, I start my outlines, you know, let's
say, on a Monday. I always wanna have
it done by Wednesday because then I'll just
rep it for the next three days. I'll
just practice it to make sure it's really,
really solid
by Sunday. And and so
my messages on Monday still start like pastor
Miller, and they end the week at, like,
sort of high council. So it's it downshifts
through the week because I'll I'll start it
and I'll preach it. Crystal's like, oh, man.
That's what I'm talking about. She's like, preach
that. And then I'll come off if she's
happens to be listening to me on Sunday,
and she'll go,
you cut out so much. She's like, you
were too cold.
And so,
you know, you wanna listen, I learned from
one of my favorite pastor's preachers, a guy
named Brian Branham. And I just, he's amazing.
I learned early on from him, listen, you
you preach to the room that you're in,
and you wanna honor where they are. And
so if they're
cooler and chill and not real,
you know,
boisterous, then don't go in there and try
to plow through them. You know, try to
speak in a language they understand and at
a tempo and a pace they understand.
But, conversely,
if you're in a place where they are
and I just I tell it by the
hymns, man. I mean, if I'm getting knocked
over by your first hymn,
I know we're in business. And I know
I can come up there and be a
lot looser with you, and I can hit
the pulpit a little harder, and I can
do that. And so but I think what's
been great and I really appreciate is no
one has asked me
to change my style or delivery or any
of that. I just think I always wanna
I always wanna be prayerful about, you know,
let me make sure that I'm preaching the
word. Let me make sure I'm not preaching
my flesh.
And, you know, as old another one of
my favorite preachers, Tony Hudson, used to say,
you know, every time he'd get up to
pray before he'd preach, he'd say, father, in
the name of Jesus, I stand where flesh
has failed me. And so I'm the same
way. My flesh will fail me if I'm
up there on my own. And so, you
know, I always wanna honor it, but I've
been very grateful no one's asked me to
to tone it down or anything because I,
you know, because I wanna make sure that
I I do honor what we're doing there.
I wish we preached harder, and I wish
we would sling it harder, and that's true.
I've never hidden that. But at the same
time, you know, I've got an opportunity
to to convey a message, and I pretty
frequently will get messages
something that hit them that day, and then
then I'm fine with that. And then if
I wanna really shout and sling it, that's
why I have a podcast. So you can
go on there and go crazy. That's right.
But Yeah. I'm glad you have a a
venue there. You wanna honor where you are,
and and I always wanna be real careful
with that. But at the same time, they
didn't necessarily call me because I was quiet.
They knew what they were getting when they
called me, and I and I told them
that. I remember Crystal and I sitting in
that first conversation with our state president. I
said, look. You do know what we're doing
here. Right? I mean, you you're familiar with
us and what we do. We're not disrespectful
by any means, but we're some of these
folks are a little bit more country. We're
a little bit more rock and roll. Right?
I mean, like, you just gotta know that,
and he did. And and so we just
always pray. I mean, I think the best
advice for anybody, obviously, be scripturally prepared, use
the word a lot, let the spirit guide.
But, man, just pray before you teach, you
know, just make sure you sit in your
car a few more extra minutes and go,
you know, look, Lord, if there's something I
need to stay away from today, would you
help me to see that? And if I
need to throttle it up, would you tell
me to do that too?
And he will. He's always faithful.
And I was just, man, I just think
if Jesus were on the front row or
if president Nelson were in the front row,
would I be comfortable sitting down after what
I preached? And I always have been. And
so if I can do that, I'm just
fine. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, Gary, this is
this is great. So fun to connect with
you like this, again and hear about your
journey and learn from it. Any other point
principle story that you wanna make sure we
squeeze in here? How do we do? I
think we did great. I mean, you're you're
awesome, man. And I I'm so grateful for
what you do. And I mean that. That's
not just podcast host to podcast host,
you know, giving you props. No. I've you've
been a good friend to me and and
have listened. And what and and I would
say the reason is because you just listened
to me over the years without Yeah. Will
listen and not judge, I guess, is the
trend on social media. So, yeah, you you
you've listened and and not judged. I would
just
leave this thing with a with sort of
my simple
testimony. Right? And that when I think about
stories in this journey, I always come back
to kind of the same three things. Number
one,
I believe we serve God in miracles.
I think the book of Mormon says it
beautifully.
I think it's all throughout scripture, but I
always love that you didn't go to what
Mormon nine eleven. So 911 is the emergency.
The verse is, you know, we serve a
God in miracles. So Yeah. That's cool. We
serve a God of miracles. And so if
anybody's listening to us, if God did something
in the scripture for somebody that really broke
through for them and created a miracle, if
he did it for somebody, he can do
it for you. He can do it for
me. How he does that and when he
does it, I don't know. But I believe
we serve a god of miracles. Two,
I'm convinced that Jesus knows your name. I
know he knows your name. So wherever you
are and whatever is happening,
I know he sees you and I know
that he is very aware of what's happening.
You are not alone. You might think you
are, but you're definitely, definitely not alone. And
the final thing is that we're on the
winning side, Kurt. There's that old song we
used to hymn and sing in the Baptist
word all the time, you know, that we're
on the winning side, and we are. Death,
hell, and the grave, we're conquered by Jesus,
so we ultimately, this story ends well. You
might be in a place right now where
the story is not well, and I get
it. There might be a lot more question
marks in your faith journey right now than
periods. I completely understand
that. But we serve a God of miracles.
He knows your name,
and,
and, and, and
we are on the winning side. That's the
best thing I could share with anybody.
The end. That's it for this Leading Saints
episode. I encourage you to check out some
of the most popular episodes of the podcast
that we list at the bottom of the
show notes. If you haven't listened to all
of those, do so
now. Remember, up your teaching game by listening
to the David Farnsworth presentation by visiting leadingsaints.org/fourteen.
It came as a result of the position
of leadership which was imposed upon us
by the God of heaven, who brought
forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus
Christ.
When the declaration
was made concerning the only
true and living Church upon the face of
the earth,
we were immediately put in a position of
loneliness,
the loneliness of leadership
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,
and to which we must face up with
boldness and courage
and ability.