Have you ever heard of scrupulosity?
This is a mental health concern that is
impacting more Latter day Saints than you think.
Scrupulosity
is religious obsessive compulsive disorder
where individuals are hyper obsessed about their worthiness
and repentance.
Sam Baxter, a former bishop, sat down with
me to talk about his lifelong struggle with
scrupulosity
and how he got treatment. You can watch
this interview for free in the Mentally Healthy
Saints library by going to leadingsaints.org/fourteen.
This gets you fourteen days free access to
Sam Baxter's interview about scrupulosity
and 25 plus other interviews about ministering to
those who struggle with mental health. The content
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for free access.
So my name is Kurt Frankem, and I
am the founder and executive director of Leading
Saints and, obviously, the host of the Leading
Saints podcast. Now I started Leading Saints back
in 02/2010. It was just a hobby blog
and it grew from there. By the time,
02/2014
came around, we started the podcast and that's
really when it got some,
traction and took off, 02/2016.
We became a five zero one c three
nonprofit organization, and we've been growing ever since.
And now I get the opportunity
of interviewing and talking with remarkable people all
over the world. Now this is a segment
we do on the Leading Saints podcast called
How I Lead, and we reach out to
everyday leaders. They're not experts, gurus, authors, PhDs.
They're just everyday leaders who've been asked to
serve in a specific leadership calling, and we
simply ask them, how is it that you
lead? And they go through some remarkable principles
that should be in a book, that should
be behind a PhD. They're usually that good,
and, we just talk about, sharing what the
other guy is doing. And I remember being
a leader just simply wanting to know, k.
I know what I'm trying to do, but
what's the other guy doing? What's working for
him? And so that's why every Wednesday or
so, we publish these how I lead segments
to share.
Hey. Good news. This is the how I
lead episode where you get to meet Brenda
Engel.
A long story of how I got connected
to Brenda, but I'm so glad I did.
And we wanted to rush this episode because
it is time sensitive. There's some cool things
happening that Brenda's involved with.
But obviously, first of all, in this episode,
we talk about
being a leader in the church who has
been divorced and what that's like and how
do you reconcile
some of those feelings when you feel sidelined,
whether it's because of a divorce or other
things. And a really fascinating discussion, I think
many will benefit. This is almost like two
episodes in one that we have here because,
that first part we talk about her leadership
experience or her journey through being divorced and
but also then later serving in some leadership
callings and having more of a a full
heart for those who have had a similar
life experience.
And then we talk about Brenda's humanitarian
efforts,
and she's been involved in Africa, in, Eastern
Africa in so many ways. And many of
you know, whether you remember it or not,
but president Nelson has announced the temple in
Nairobi, Kenya that's,
actually done and and about to be go
have the open house and things.
And Brenda talks about this interesting dynamic of
how members in Africa sometimes don't have you
know, they're so far away from temples at
times. They don't really have a full concept
of what the temple is and how to
why they should be excited about it and
those things. And so she's organizing a really
cool trip,
where she's getting as many Latter day Saints
as possible just to get to the dedication
and the open house of the Nairobi Temple.
Now you may think, well, wait wait a
minute, Curt. Why don't you just wait and
have them go when they're ready to take
out their endowments. Right? Well, the church has
funding and things to actually get the members
there for their endowment, but this is kind
of the step before that where we help
members kinda shift that paradigm of really understanding
the holiness of the temple, what the temple
is. We want them to touch and feel
and walk through the temple, and then that
propels them on the this path of actually
going through the temple for their own endowment.
So really big deal that this part of
the world is is getting a temple like
like everywhere else. And,
so there, listen to the end and look
for links in the show notes about ways
that we're going to kind of do a,
a flash, fundraiser
for this group that Brenda is putting together
in order to, get Latter day Saints in
Eastern Africa to experience the temple. So it's
gonna be awesome. And let's jump into this
interview. Here we go. My interview with Brenda
Engel.
Brenda Engel, welcome to the Leading Saints podcast.
Thank you. So good to be here.
Yeah. This is a a quick one. We're
hoping to turn around,
pretty fast. We'll we'll explain why. But,
through various networks and connections, we were able
to to connect. And you're just one of
those people I come across from time to
time. I'm just so intrigued by your background
and experience on on so many other facets.
And I think you put it well in
before I hit record that you how did
you put it? You you exist to help
struggling saints. Is that a a fair way
to put it? I do. That's what I
spend my life
doing. I love it. And yes.
Nice. I call it making my mess my
message and helping other people to take theirs
and doing something good with it. So Nice.
And so that's led to you being a
life coach, to being an author, and and
any other, realms that we should mention?
Oh, man. Being a mom of
nine kids and 40 grand kids and just
life. Life is the greatest teacher. That's been
my greatest tutor
besides the savior. Yes.
And what are you seeing? Like, just speaking
generally, when I talk with individuals like you
or therapists or, you know, people who interact
with with Latter day Saints sort of on
that on that real,
you know, just the the the real level.
Right? The authentic level. Like, what are you
seeing out there? What what are people struggling
with? What are the typical concerns you run
into? Just just generally speaking.
I would say
number one is just knowing who we are,
and I know president Nelson's asked this. So
when we can find out who we are,
it resolves a lot of
of issues. And trust, just trusting. There's a
lot of anxiety, which means we're struggling with
just trusting, and we're trying to fix things.
We're trying to make things work. We're trying
to figure them out, but we're we're forgetting
to trust. And it's hard when you've been
through hard things. So I think
those two components are
maybe the biggest that I see.
Yeah. Because, I mean, we often I mean,
just like any group of humans, we we
set we point towards ideals of life, and
we set point towards frameworks in life that
that help, like the gospel. I mean, it's
a phenomenal
framework. Now is it, you know, a %
as far as giving you all your wish
and dreams and taking all problems out of
your life? I think all of us, you
know, chuckle if if if anybody said that.
And so life gets messy, like you said.
Right? And and so how do we navigate
that? That mess is often where people struggle.
And that struggle is where we get strong.
So it's like we knew we were gonna
have that.
It's part of life, but, man, when it
hits us, we're like, wah wah. I don't
know what to do with this now. Even
though I supposedly have all the textbook answers,
it's like, okay. Now it's real. What am
I gonna do? So
Tell tell me a little bit about, having
a chance to read your book. Is it
have you published more than one book? Or
I I have two books. Why Not Me
and then Breaking the Yokes That Bind Us.
That's,
like, 64
simple little things to help break out and
move forward, and I love those. Those are
assignments I give people,
usually what I speak on when I speak.
Just lots of just simple tools, doctrine principles,
some really fun things, some deep things that
just like if you're in a rut, here
we go. Try some of these. Yeah. So
And, obviously, the the why not me is
sort of playing off of the question that
a lot of us ask is why me?
Why why am I suffering all these these
struggles and adversities? And so you kinda can
flip that and find deeper meaning.
That's right. That's exactly right. We we're usually
all brought to our knees
and asked that question at one point, which
I have definitely done myself. And,
we gotta find a bigger perspective, a bigger
purpose to the pain and the struggle, and
that can open up our life force and
get us going. So
Yeah. Good. You mentioned as we were talking
about this interview, just some left turns that
maybe your life has have taken as far
as, you know, things you didn't expect.
You found yourself single later on in life.
You know, you mentioned nine kids, and and,
that
what what do you remember from that as
far as just your relationship with the church
and what that what that meant for you
going forward? What what what points should be
highlighted there?
Well, I remember thinking during that that if
I wasn't a member of church, this would
be so much easier because
I had had a lot of callings. I
knew everybody. Our home was the gathering place.
Like,
we were sort of, like, you know, my
kids were amazing kids, and,
yeah. It got it got really hard. So
the
the gospel part of it and
navigating through
what,
even priesthood leaders thought and
how, you know, all of that got tough,
like really, really, really tough. And I'm so
grateful for it because I'll have people say,
oh my goodness, Brenda. Look what's going on.
Like, I'm not believed. I'm being sidelined. I'm
being this. I'm like, hey.
I can probably top your story. But you
know what?
We get this is our this is where
we get to show where
where we're at and we're gonna get through
this and move through it. And I know
how you feel and I understand, and so
let's get going. Let's hold on because if
you don't hold on, where are you gonna
be at? And so that's my my biggest
thing was, like, singles that,
really
get kicked in the gut. And
it's so common
and very
seems to be getting more common and which
is sad and tragic, but
yeah. Yeah. So, correct me if I'm wrong,
but did you kinda feel like you were
on this path, like, the storybook path of,
like, you know, are you doing all the
things? You had the great family, the the
gathering place. You were the family that maybe
a lot of people looked up to, and
then suddenly Yes. You're not. And so people
in our community, whether they intend this or
not, they kinda don't know
how to
how to approach you, how to engage with
you anymore, how to talk about, you know,
members of your family, or I don't know.
Like, is that is that a fair way
to frame that? What to do. They don't
know what to do. Like, I remember going
to church for at least six months and
having people just
avoid me. And here I I'm like miss
social. Like, I have served everybody there. I'm
like and all of a sudden, boom. And
it's not because they're
bad people or anything. It's because they don't
know how to handle.
And in my case, they'd heard a lot
of things that maybe they, you know, maybe
that's what they believed or it's all they
knew. And so
I had a man come up to me
one time and just this is after months
of being there alone
and just put his arm around me. He
didn't say anything. He just put his arm
around me, and he hugged me, and he
walked away.
And I was in such a rough place,
and I spent all day making that man
of strawberry pie. I just wanted to thank
him for reaching out. But I decided if
I know somebody struggle, I'm not gonna let
him go through it alone. I I can't.
I wanna be there with them. Yeah. And
I and I guess it's and I feel
like we all know this stuff, but it's
just a good reminder and to to talk
with somebody who's maybe you've been through it
where it's just the simple moments of, like,
oh, there they are at church. They're sitting
by themselves, or I'm gonna make sure I,
you know, just say hello for thirty seconds
and chat and check-in and and let them
know that we love them type type of
thing. Right?
Absolutely. It's priceless. I I can't even emphasize
that. Just be present with them, and the
details don't matter. Sometimes we wanna know, like,
what happened? Like, this family, like, what's it?
And and, you know,
most people still don't know, and it doesn't
even matter. It's it matters that that we
mourn with people that mourn, that we keep
our baptismal covenants, that
we we are there to help sucker them,
and that's what matters. And there are some
people who are so good at it, and
I wanna get good at that. I just
wanna be good at at,
you know, being present with them and,
you know, helping them move through it. So
Yeah. And I think there is a I
don't know. I don't wanna make something that's
not there, but I I've thought about
somehow creating some episodes, some content around this
dynamic of,
you know, like, for example, the the stake
president who called me as bishop is is
now divorced. And Yeah. You know, we're we're
in touch and,
you know, I've run another stake president's bishops
who,
either, you know, end up divorced or they
just have this complete
life changing dynamic.
And before, it was sort of so easy
to approach these people. They're you know, we
can put them in a box. They are
the church leader. They they've sort of figured
it out. Like, they're they're the sage. Like,
they they have some good advice. And then
when they're not, we're sorta like, ah. And
and I know a lot of people can
sometimes approach those past leaders, those past,
you know,
respectable
people that, you know, that's sort of where
where we've classified them in a way of
like,
maybe you did something wrong. You know, if
you only did more of that, they're you
know, you must have broke this, you know,
when in reality, it's just mortality a lot
of the time. Right?
Absolutely.
Yes. And it it can be a
a faith crisis. Like, when we hold people
up so high, it's our expectations of them,
and I think we've gotta be really careful
of that,
that it can it can help,
like, hurt our own
testimony, which our testimony shouldn't be in that.
But sometimes we just put some even even
apostles or, you know, we've gone through things
where people find, you know, fault with a
prophet or whatever, and it's like,
it's it's really,
you know, our relationship to God and ourselves
and and
getting back on our lane and living in
our lane and not letting that take us
out. But it it is very difficult to
see. And we have a lot of pain
with that. We hate to see really good
people,
go through those kinda tragic things. It's it's
it's awful
Yeah. For us. But but the Lord sees
a different
path and plan, and we're all here for
experience, and we've gotta leave it to him.
So how long has it been now since
you've been, single?
Ten years. I'm thinking around that. Yeah. Wow.
Okay. And you mentioned to me, like, you
sort of it sounds like you went through
a period where you weren't sure where you
fit and do it all in in all
the church and then, you know, the community
wasn't sure where you fit. Right? But then
there suddenly, there were some callings that came
your way, and you did you kinda feel
like you found that place again?
I I did. I was just I I
believe the lord compensates us for our losses.
That's, Yeah. You know, like, great quote of,
and he promised me that when I was
at my lowest that he would compensate me,
and he has. And you gotta hold on
for that too. And all of it hasn't,
happened, but much of it has. So I
moved out of the area that I was
in, which was really,
needful,
and,
moved to another place and
and was immediately giving a pretty good
church calling as far as busy and leadership.
And
I cried for, like, a month because I
just I'd already done that.
I just I don't know. I just
it was direction for me on what the
Lord wanted me to do for the next
little bit. So that was So you cried
in a way of you cried in a
way of, like, you did not wanna do
this type of thing? I didn't
want to do it, but I knew I
knew it was, and it was it helped
save me. Like, I service saves us. Like,
I am the biggest proponent of service and
Yeah. And getting in there and loving people
and losing yourself in that. And what I
noticed is this this place that I was
in,
nobody judged me. They're like, oh,
did your husband die or something? You know?
And I'd have to say, well, like, I
couldn't say the d word for five years.
Like, I couldn't even say it. I was
so embarrassed.
But
people, they they were so good, and they
took me anyway. I was able to serve
and love, and then I got another calling.
And and that one,
and just just for reference, I'll just tell
you that it was a stake early study
president because when I got that and I
was coaching a lot of singles that a
lot of people had been divorced, and they
thought
they were sidelined by the church with callings.
They're like, I don't even have a calling
or I've been
one guy told me, I've been the door
greeter for five years. And I said, well,
be a good one. And he
he said, I am the best one. I
said, okay. I want you to move up
front in church. And so he moved up
front
and was called to be Sunday school friend.
Anyway, so there's a part of us that
have gotta not hang back and get in
there. Right? So he anyway, I'm talking to
singles, and I'll and they're like, so what
do you do? And I said, well, I
just got called to be a stick release
type person. I know it's, like, kind of,
like, strange. And they're like, what?
We didn't know you could do that. Like,
is this a new policy? And I'm like,
I don't think so.
I'm I I mean, even my dad okay.
So this is funny. He's a bishop twice,
stake presidency for nine year, ten years. And
he's like, Brenda,
I didn't know they could do that. So
anyway,
I blew people's minds. It's like but I
love that because I had people come out
and say, that makes me feel good that
we aren't
we aren't just, like, damaged and can't ever
be. And it's like, no. We're still the
same people. We're gonna still serve, and we're
still gonna do what God and my favorite
place is just being a ministering sister. Like,
that's my favorite. And I don't care where
where I'm at, but that was that was
interesting that
that it did help people to know that
that was a possibility, which I know that
happens all over the church. But yeah.
You know, you you've said this word a
few times as far as being feeling sidelined.
That's an interesting concept to me. And I
remember even in my own experience where I
went through this, like, decade of, like,
various, like, you know, church leadership assignments from
bishop break to being the bishop to being
in the stake presidency, and then it was
all over. We moved and, you know, it
was sort of over. And
for years, it kinda had this feeling, not
that I would frame it this way, but
I kinda felt like I was being sidelined.
Like, don't they know, like, the experience I
bring to this place? And I could just
help out so much if they just put
me in that chair and and I could
you know? And and and it wasn't so
much I was being sidelined. It was just
like, no. That season is just over for
now. You know? And, you know, now I'm
serving as elders' corn president. Kinda feel like
I'm gonna reintroduce for this season as long
as it'll last.
But it is like I think the adversary
really works on that. Like, isn't it isn't
it awful now that you're sitting in the
bench? You know?
Like like like, they don't want you in
these things. Yeah. Why do we make something
out of these callings? Because we're all people
just serving, and it it can be tough
when you when you don't have that, you
know, responsibility anymore, but sometimes it's just the
really cool experience of being close to people
and serving people. And while I've never missed
getting changed from a calling, really, I do
miss that connection with people. And so that
that's a great
great blessing. But you can get that nursery.
Oh my goodness. I love
that. Sure. So Yeah. And and reframing that
really helped me of sitting, like, you know,
with my experience, like, the things I've I've
been able to experience up to this point,
the callings I've had, it really makes me
a different kind of member. And so I'm
gonna reengage. I'm gonna be a leader without
that formal calling and reach out to maybe
those that are literally on the sidelines or
those that, you know, that need more administering.
I can actually do that, where when I
was a bishop, I I was too busy.
You know? I couldn't take time to sit
with that person in the foyer or or
do this or that. Now I can. And
so
to me, I just so, you know, this
isn't this is a asset that I have,
my experience, that I can be a better
regular,
you know, Joe Schmo,
church member. You know? Absolutely.
Well, on the other side of that, I've
had I've had a lot of people coaching
them that say, you know, I've never
had a calling of any significance. And I'm
like, well, what does that mean? But, you
know, it's like in you know, they always
it it's like they've they've always wanted to
have something never have. And I think we
just put
so much on that, and that's it goes
back again to having high expectations for for
those people and those
callings as well. We just have to be
so careful about. And some of the greatest
people ever were just scout leaders for, like,
thirty years. I know a guy just thirty
years just serving these kids. Like, what is
better than that? Like,
really? But why do we do this? I
don't know. Yeah. It's human nature. Right? And,
and I think sometimes in these more, saturated
areas of the church,
you know, there's just a lot of people
a lot of people who can serve, and
so these seasons come and go. And and
I have to remind myself that a lot
of you know, it's just I'm because I'm
not in that season. That's okay. And but
others get the opportunity because, you know, if
I was called as bishop again, my heart
would almost hesitate and break. Be like, wait.
Like, there's others that need this opportunity. Like
Yeah. I I've had my goal. Like, give
it to someone else. You know? So Yeah.
It's interesting. For sure. That's right.
Anything else about
that time as, being
a single,
divorcee, you know, in as a stake
relief study present
that that comes to mind? Well, I
I feel like that
I I
I feel like the best part of that
was
having people
get hope in the fact that I I
knew their pain and I knew their struggles,
and it was a really highly,
leadership stake. People have been leaders all over
the world and just Mhmm. A really,
anyway and so
I I really did feel like that that
was one of the purposes for me to
be there was to really have empathy, which
is what our trials teach us, to have
empathy for those who are struggling and to
be able to put my arm around them.
And they would just say,
it means something because you know
what I'm going through.
And and that's
that's a great opportunity. That's why I tell
people, whatever your struggle is, reach out to
those that have the same one because they'd
rather hear from
someone who had to send,
you know, a child die or someone who
commits suicide talk to them than Mhmm. Someone
like me that has not gone through that.
And
so
I think that was that was great. But
I got to rub shoulders with some of
the most amazing leaders. And what the Lord
did was he compensated me completely with,
I remember sitting down in in
the first stake,
meeting with our stake president, and he got
out a pencil and paper,
and he just said, tell me what the
women need.
Tell me what you want us to do.
And that had not been my experience before
when I was stake really site president. It
had really come a long ways, and I
I just I didn't know what to even
say. I'm like, woah. But it was just
such a great experience to see how we're
we're growing and coming, and we're we're
we're just moving in a in a great
direction there. So I love that. I loved
Yeah.
That experience.
So I gotta ask that maybe you don't
remember, but what did you say, when you
pulled out that pen and paper? Oh, I
had stuff. Oh, I had so much stuff.
Yes.
I I did. I I
the first thing that I told him was
that,
I want the bishops to connect with the
Relief Society presidents on a weekly, if not
couple times a month basis. Most of my
Relief Society presidents were not meeting with their
bishops and things like that. So it's like
that's why we're in there is to help
bring in this other side and say, oh,
yes. And we,
yeah, I I have a good list.
That's cool. And I I just love that
exercise of, like, you know, not that the
state president has to do everything that you
mentioned, but No. That would be great. You
know, you you probably felt very heard by
the time you left that that office that
day.
Any any other advice that comes to mind?
I'm just thinking of those maybe who've gone
through a divorce and because I think a
lot of leaders go to a place of
like, well, let's give them space. Let's not,
you know, let's not give them a calling.
They have so much stress already.
You know, they're trying to do that with
a big heart when in reality, the the
the member
going through all that can interpret it like,
oh, now I'm kinda being
alienated in in my ward. You know? Any
advice you give to church leaders as far
as, like, those individuals are sort of fresh
off a divorce?
I just,
helped a a guy in the state presidency
back in Georgia. He's he's assigned over the
single adults, and it it is so tough
because
you've got such a wide variety in every
spectrum. And, you know, some
some want to be invited over for Thanksgiving
dinner, and some feel dumb and don't want
to. And so I think it's just,
approaching it very careful, find out what what
what what could I do to help bless
your life. Like, would you love to be,
involved with our family?
Would you love for how could we best
serve you? And that's where ministering brothers and
sisters could really come into play, but,
it just finding out what because some wanna
come to the
activities and some are like, I will not
cross that threshold. Like, it's so scary. And
so you just got all over widows, divorce,
some have never had been married, some never
have children. Like, everyone is just so unique,
and it really takes a spirit to,
to and and to be present with them
and figure out what it is that's important
for them. But I everyone
needs to feel loved and wanted
and,
valued
in in callings or in,
as a ward member. Like, they really need
to be a part of that family. Yeah.
I bet it's tricky just because those individuals
probably don't know exactly what they need. You
know? They're kinda just Exactly. Trying to find
their footing
as it is.
And and so I would always say, I
think,
you know, what I typically see just in
general when somebody goes through a difficult time
is, like, maybe the the church leader reaches
out early in the process and but then
they kinda get busy or distracted, and then,
you know, know, six, seven, eight months go
by and that person think, man, they haven't
even checked back in or you know? So
just that that touch point is, you know,
on a regular basis saying, I'm just checking
in. Such a good point. It's
it's
just some consistency there especially with leadership
means a lot because we often
see the bishop or,
stake president
maybe
kind how we might see the savior in
there is like like, trying to connect to
him and feeling his love through them and
because they are in that place in the
church. And while it's not a % the
right way to do it, but there is
there is definitely something because they do have
stewardship over us. And and it's hard to
feel like you're floundering and,
like Yeah. And and kinda pushed aside, Sonia.
Yeah. For sure.
Really good. Alright. Like I mentioned, there's so
many, angles and and topics that, we can
talk about in in with your background of
things.
Tell me about your your humanitarian work in
in Africa. What what how did that all
get started?
Well, I
like I said, service is
is just
something that
works every time. If we if we
are in a tough place and we can
find somewhere, it could be next door neighbor,
it could be your ministering sisters and brothers,
it could be anything.
I love all of those, but for some
reason, I just had this, draw to
to humanitarian
in Africa and was very blessed to be
able to go down with the group and
and get involved in that. As I got
in it, I started,
you know, branching out. I loved working with
church members. This little branch, it was, like,
10 members, and now it's, like, got a
50 in. And every time we go, there's
baptisms. These people are just coming and going.
It just fills your soul. It's so
so exciting to see the,
the saints in Africa
so happy and joyful and they just love
God. And
what started me off when when we'd go
down, we'd do Days for Girls Kits, and
we'd talk to the girls about how special
they are and how much God loves them
because they aren't often treated that way. And
in fact, they're they're
devalued as a person, seen more as something
God gave the man to be used. And
so we would talk to girls. So when
I went down there, I said, I'm gonna
talk to the boys.
And they're like, oh, no. We don't talk
to the boys. And I'm like, well, I'm
going to. Because I can't tell the girls
how special they are without teaching the, you
know, the boys. And I just taught them
the proclamation that God wants you to be
to protect the women. And they're like, God
wants us to? I'm like, yes, he does.
And they love God. So it was just
like, oh my goodness. I'd leave I leave
these groups and these boys put their fist
in there, and I'm like, what is your
responsibility to women? And they're like, we are
their protectors.
And they took it literally walking by my
side, like, to I'm like, okay. You know,
just protecting.
It was just so fun because they love
God. These people
love God. And so I can talk about
it anywhere I go. And anyway. So
so we got into this branch, a couple
of the branches down there and helping them.
And I had a young man that I
gave a Book of Mormon to, and he
and I just so connected. And he joined
the church, baptized
15 people right off, and he's just this
awesome kid.
Wow.
What a miracle and a blessing. So, anyway,
that's Africa. I love it. I've been there
probably about fourteen times. I've connected up with
Molly who
tell all of you out there listening, watch
his movie,
Samuel, l l y, Molly from
Kenya. He was just the guest speaker, guest,
the guest at the
Christmas concert for
Oh, cool. I keep saying Tabernacle Choir, and
that's not how you say it. But No.
That's a Tabernacle Choir at Temple Square. Right?
He's
a good man. He's adopted 32,000 children. He'll
be so we're we're getting this temple trip
together. We had this great idea of
of inviting the saints to go to the
temple. They don't know much about the temple.
They didn't grow up with knowing about it.
They've never seen one. It's not like us
who just is surrounded by it and we're
taught since we're little. They have no idea.
So we're like, let's take them to the
open house in Nairobi, this is out of
Tanzania,
And let them see it and experience, and
then they can go home and get their
recommends and and go back and get endowed
because that would be our main goal. And
so,
we invited Molly to come from Kenya. He's
wanting to come and bring 70 of his
people, and we
put this sign up out there to see
who would come from Tanzania. And we thought
we might get 30 people. I think we're
probably gonna have a good 50 to 200
of these early, early fresh
saints,
get on buses and go with us over.
So it sort of grew into this big
undertaking. So That's cool. It's it's like a
good problem, but well
yeah. Yeah. So primary, have you, focused on
a certain part of Africa with a lot
of your humanitarian work, or is you've been
all over? We
this group I'm with, we drill wells mostly
in Tanzania, and then we've gone into Uganda
and Malawi. We've done a lot of wells
in Malawi really, really
needed
and some in Kenya. So we we branched
out a bit, but most of our work
has been in Tanzania.
And that so a lot of that, that's
mainly Eastern Africa. Right? Yeah. Eastern Africa. Gotcha.
And has it always been through a specific,
like, a humanitarian organization?
Or
Yes. Yes. I go with, Hearts and Hands
for Humanity is
the organization that I went with. I'm also
involved with some other humanitarian
groups that go down as well.
So I've got
my feet in a few different pots down
there, but hearts and hands is,
is
how we're doing this temple trip. And Yeah.
And then so how many years collectively have
you been involved with humanitarian work there?
Probably about eight years.
Oh, wow. Great. And it like, maybe just
give us more of a general you know,
you talk about this this, temple dynamic with
how people are they're familiar with the temple,
but they don't kinda have that experience with
it. How else would you describe just your
observation of the church in Africa currently? I
I just
see
humble
people who love god,
and they don't make it crazy
complicated. They're very simple.
They're
they feel they feel deeply, and they love
deeply. And,
you know, when I was talking just two
weeks ago, I was there talking to them
about the temple and this experience, and
they they want what God wants them to
have.
It's it's very, very sweet. And there's there's
gonna be all kinds and people who they're
so poor and they're so struggling that there
are gonna be those who
might see it as a vehicle to something
better, which it is, but more in a
monetary sense. But, you know, I I took
some money from,
Sister Oaks actually gave me a hundred dollars
when I was going and said, just do
something, you know, with the branch. She's like,
just just do something. And so I went
there and asked the branch president, like, is
there something you could do with people here?
Is there somebody that really need need something?
He goes, no. We we're doing pretty good.
I'm like, these people have one meal a
day. They have to walk, you know, six
hours to get water or
whatever. Like, their life is so hard, but
he
he just said, I can't think of anything.
And so that's who they are. They're most
of the ones I see are are just
they want a better life for their families,
and they love god.
Yeah.
Yeah. And and they just, are attracted to
the gospel. Right? Just that Yes. They're
just
drawn.
Yeah.
And what are you seeing as far as
just the,
like, the institutional church there as far as
area presidencies or what the church is doing?
You know, obviously, they have their own humanitarian
efforts and things like that or, you know,
ways that the church is helping, you know,
move people towards the temple or anything else
coming to mind as far as what the
actual institutional church is is doing.
Well,
we, you know, got a 70 over Kenya,
and they just made their first stake in
in
Dar Es Salaam, which is in Tanzania.
And so we're we've spent a lot of
time with, like, a couple of last mission
presence there. They're both natives of Africa.
And,
you know, these guys
are pretty new and pretty in there. Just
it it's just fascinating to watch. They have
the dedication
and they have, you know, what what I
see,
being very respectful is there are a lot
of rough edges that have to be,
you know, taken off. And
and they're just they're just try so hard,
but there's just there's some things, like,
that are just,
okay. One quick little story. This this my
African son that is trying to get to
his his
mission papers and has had every problem. He
had them submitted three times, and they never
came back. So they didn't even know why
they didn't really get submitted. So I said,
well, go into the mission president because he's
like your stake president. So he makes eleven
hour bus ride
into Dar Es Salaam,
goes to the mission president, knocks on the
door, and he he won't see him because
he doesn't have any church clothes.
And Oh, no.
He doesn't have any money. He doesn't have
any food. He doesn't have any clothes.
He's gotta either go all the way back
eleven hours to get his church clothes
or try to find some there and go.
And that's just it's just little things like
that. That could really frustrate us. If we
did that to American missionaries, they'd probably like,
what would they do? But this kid's so
obedient.
I said, did that hurt you, Job? And
he said, no. He said, I
I wanna do it right. I wanna do
the right thing.
And so it just makes me a better
person to watch it, but there's a lot
of lot of rough edges
happening. And like this poor branch president had
been a member a year trying to send
a kid out on a mission,
they don't know what,
they don't they just they just need help.
They need help, but they don't need so
much help that we enable them and that
we take away that sweet purity that they
have because
they have a lot of good things we
don't have here that we're missing. And
their simpleness and their simple life and their
just
not being offended and so,
loving
and willing
to do what God asked them to do
and just all kinds of stuff. Not that
we're not, but our life is busy and
fast paced, and we're we have all this
culture stuff going on, and we have we
have a lot that
I learned from them. Yeah. Yeah. Just those
little nuances we take for granted. Right? That,
you know, of course, you just go to
the State President's office, and there is an
office, and they know how to use it.
They know how to log in. They, you
know, can just move that process forward. And
sometimes there's maybe,
cultural hiccups there that confuse members or make
it more difficult than it has to be.
Right?
There's a lady there that had been a
member for quite a while and and they're
without any church, but she had joined a
long time ago. She's really old and sick.
And she said, Brenda, I just want
a patriarchal blessing before I die,
which she's not gonna get because you have
to have a stake and you have to
have all this stuff. And so
all of that is just it's
it's it's hard stuff, but it's the the
newness and the freshness and the
the devotion
is just so inspiring.
Yeah. So it's wonderful.
What was the feeling when
when
a temple was announced there in in Nairobi?
I mean, was that something what what what
how do they
interpret that? I mean, are they excited, like,
we're excited here, or are they maybe still
not understanding the
the the accomplishment that that is or that
that step?
I I suspect those that have been in
the church a while are just elated and,
you know, overjoyed.
The ones that
I've been working with, they they just don't
know
what
to be excited about. Like,
you know, and so we're we're trying to
teach them. And actually, this little branch started
doing temple prep classes just for them to
take this trip in there so they understand
more. But,
they just not understanding. Not not ever you
know, we just we just take for granted
all of that that they they know the
scriptures. They know that there was Solomon's temple
and all that. So,
it's it's exciting to them, but they don't
really know how excited to get about that
because in download, sealing your family together forever.
I tried to teach them that when I
was there a couple weeks ago. What does
that mean to them? And how does that
word even translate when they were translating it?
The missionaries were translating it to them. I
don't even know.
So
it we got a long ways to go.
And so that's kinda why we thought, well,
let's let's get them over there and let
them be there physically. It's only a six
hour drive,
and let them feel the spirit. These peep
they can feel the spirit. Right? So Yeah.
That's interesting because, you know, we hear these
stories about members across the world,
you know, maybe in
less than first world countries who make significant
sacrifice
to to travel to to do their temple
work. And
and and so we often hyperfocus on that
of how can we get temples closer to
people or how can we get people closer
to temples so they could do their work.
But we often maybe miss that step, especially
in these countries that are so new to
the church or members that are so new
to the church. They don't even maybe understand
the significance in order to reach for it.
And so by giving them an experience
with the temple, like the the open house
or the dedication,
that can maybe shift that,
paradigm. And then they're like, okay. I can't
wait to come back and do my work
now that I have a deeper understanding of
just how holy this place is.
That's what we're hoping. That's that's kind of
our idea of that, and
it it it will it will work. Like,
they're so excited. We can't believe that we
had I mean, they're they're very, very excited
to go. And I don't even know if
they know what they're so excited about, but
they're excited.
Well, it's a it's a good field trip.
I mean, I'm I'm always game for a
field trip. You don't just go see something.
That's true.
That's true. And we're we're having them put
some skin in the game. Like, they've gotta
get,
it's called an emergency passport for just a
little bit. They have to get a yellow
fever shot. They have to do some stuff
to to be able to go. So we
want them to participate in it. We don't
wanna hand things to them. That's probably one
of the toughest stuff all over in these
countries is
is don't go in and ruin them. Let's
don't go in and enable them. Let's give
them some fish and teach them how to,
and let's give them things that will help
them improve their country, but not
not hurt them. And I see a lot
of do gooders hurting
hurting people there for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
The whole humanitarian charitable
industry, you know, there's a lot of good
happening, but there's sometimes some some shady stuff
that that happens far too much, unfortunately.
Absolutely.
Maybe break down the dynamics because I think
this is something that where we as a
leading Saints organization would love to figure out
ways we can help. And
so, essentially, you are
you need funds to pay for the buses
and maybe, like, you know,
meals or, you know, room and board type
of thing once they get there, or what
what's what's the, dynamic of actually getting people
to the Nairobi Temple?
Well, it's it's not real expensive,
but we probably should have raised the money
before we invited them.
We we just did not expect this.
And, and like I say, the the
a lot of,
United States Missionaries are there, and they are
so excited. Oh my goodness. These guys are
so excited that they can't cross into another
country, so they can't even go. And they're
so bummed, but they're they're really working
with these people. They're just so excited. So,
yes, we've gotta bus them in,
six hour bus drive into Nairobi.
We'll have to stay the night,
because of of the drive. Get up the
next morning, go through the temple, and then
bring them home, and we'll feed them,
feed them and give them water. Although they
could do the whole trip without anything because
they're
probably used to that.
So,
that that will be very expensive. We figured
out it would be probably about a hundred
dollars a person
to get them there and back and
including helping them if they if they need
help with emergency passport or
the whatever so that they're not because some
of them are so poor that that would
never happen. So,
anyway, we're,
that's what we're looking at right now. So
it's not a lot. It it'll be a
pretty simple trip. And then
if they come back and get their endowments
or their temple recommend to do their endowments
or,
get families and then get families sealed, whatever,
the church actually has a fund that helps
them go,
get their their first time endowment. So that
was really cool to find that out that
they they they have that, which is great.
So Yeah. So, hopefully, this trip will sort
of put them on that path or in
that mindset of of getting to the temple.
It will speed it up for sure. There's
no doubt.
So is there a specific number of, like,
people that you're trying to get there or
a number of buses or I mean, there's
are a lot of people aware of it
wanna join or I give us the numbers
as far as what you're aiming for.
They're they're aware. The missionaries are working
in in both these,
towns where we have the the branches, Arusha
and Moshi.
And
they
we have
investigators
signed up. We have,
you know, mostly members, but a lot of
investigators, we invite told them to invite their
their neighbors if they're interested in the gospel.
So it's helping the missionaries with work. It's
just put a little bit of energy into
the whole thing.
And,
is there a certain like,
I imagine each bus, I don't know, the
typical bus here holds about 40 people. I
mean, is that what you're looking at? That's
probably about it.
Well, when I was there two weeks ago,
this bus passed me, and there was three
people in the one bucket seat of the
passing Jira upfront. You know, three people setting
us.
So these guys are used to loading in.
We're we don't wanna do that to them,
but we're probably looking at
10 buses or so. We get a 50
people. We could have 200.
We could put
most of these bus sizes, you could probably
put 25 comfortably on it.
So,
we may have to get a little more
cramped, and then we'll have one of us
on each of the buses. And, you know,
we'll do some teaching. We'll let them teach
us. We'll sing a lot of songs, and
it'll be kind of fun. So if anybody
wants to come and go, you can. That'd
be great. Nice. Awesome. And then and then
we'll we'll go into
there and meet Molly with his,
family, and the 70 will,
help us go through there
with him. And
he's bringing his choir who are unbelievable. If
you wanna look up the Mollies choir, and
we're gonna have them sing out on the
temple grounds.
It's gonna be kinda cool. So Awesome. Well,
that's exciting. I I hope you'll send and
share some pictures of of the event things.
And like I said, I think,
we this is why I wanna get the
episode out as soon as possible is we
as a Leading Saints organization would love to
facilitate some of that. So we're going to
put a link in the show notes that'll,
point to a specific form. And,
obviously, all donations through there is coming through
Leading Saints, so it's tax deductible. And then
we will pass all each one of those
dollars onto this effort of getting
as as many of these
awesome Latter day Saints to experience the temple
and get in the mindset of of, engaging
further with the the doctor there and the
temple and the their own,
ordinances that can happen there. So,
yeah, this is would be fun to to
partner on and Yeah. And make happen.
That is very exciting and very we're very,
very grateful.
Awesome. Very cool. Well, I think I think
this is great. I think it,
there there's
some good energy behind this and that we
can maybe help some saints in in Africa,
and and what a wonderful effort that that
will be. Well, let me first ask you
this question before I ask my last question
is if people wanted to learn more about
you, about your coaching, about if they if
they're they feel like a sideline, single adult
that just need someone to talk to, where
would you where would you send them? I,
I'm a life coach and a trainer. So
faithbasedlifecoachingacademy.com
is the website for my life coaching.
And the,
books that I wrote
are on Amazon, Why Not Me and Breaking
the Oaks That Bind Us.
Hearts and Hands for Humanity
is the
organization that we're doing this temple trip with.
Awesome. Perfect. And last question I have for
you is as you reflect on your time
as a leader, how has being a leader
helped you become a better follower of Jesus
Christ?
I
in so many ways, and I'm so grateful
for the leadership opportunities so that I could
be
a better follower. I,
even if they
pass around something for a Relief Society activity,
I know
the time they put in, I know,
their hopes for this and
I'm in. Like, I wanna be in.
And I think
recognizing that people can look really good at
at church
and really good
when you see them out and that
being a leader, you you've got to see
that so many people
well, everyone
bears
burdens and struggles.
And so I look at people
in,
in a different way,
like not
not having expectations of them in their life,
knowing that
they've they've all got a story
and
they all could use an arm around them.
And,
so yes, I'm grateful. I'm grateful that I
was able to be a leader so that
I can be a better follower and
be a better support, and be,
the person that looks around
for
something to do to help.
Just is so appreciated as a leader to
have those, you know, they say this STP,
same 10 people, and it's like, I want
to be one of those
that can show up for them, to support
them.
And that concludes this How I Lead interview.
I hope you enjoyed it. And, I would
ask you, could you take a minute and
drop this link in an email, on social
media, in a text, wherever it makes the
most sense, and share it with somebody who
could relate to this experience. And this is
how we develop as leaders, just hearing what
the other guy's doing, trying some things out,
testing, adjusting
for your area. And,
that's where great leadership's discovered. Right? So we
would love to have you, share this with,
somebody in this calling or a related calling.
And that would be great. And also if
you know somebody,
any type of leader who would be a
fantastic guest on the, how I lead segment,
reach out to us. Go to leadingsaints.org/contact.
Maybe send this in individual an email letting
them know that you're going to be suggesting
their name for this interview. We'll reach out
to them and,
see if we can line them up. So,
again, go to leadingsaints.org/contact,
and there you can submit all the information
and let us know. And maybe they will
be on a future how I lead segment
on the Leading Saints podcast.
Remember, to watch the interview about scrupulosity,
go to leadingsaints.org/14
for free access to the Mentally Healthy Saints
virtual
library.
It came as a result of the position
of leadership which was imposed upon us
by the God of heaven who brought forth
a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
And when the declaration was made concerning the
own and only true and living church upon
the face of the earth,
We were immediately put in a position of
loneliness,
the loneliness of leadership
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,
and to which we must face up with
boldness and courage
and
ability.