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Welcome back to the leading saints podcast. This
is a really this is a fun discussion
to have, and I'm glad you you'd experienced
it. I hope you'll share it, but maybe
more of an interfaith type of approach where
I talk with rabbi Haim, who is the
rabbi for the Chabad, the Jewish Chabad here
in Utah County.
Obviously, a place that is
very Latter day Saint and what is it
like being Jewish here as far as leading
the Jewish people in this part of the
world,
the experience
like and there there's so many similarities, right,
between our faith and their faith, from health
codes to it seems like there's a lot
of laws and commandments and covenants and all
those things. Right? It was just fun to
sit down with Rabbi Chaim and and go
through these things as far as he is
processing the world of religion from how he
lives his faith, why he does conversion, testimony,
all those things and man, I could have
gone on for four hours so we'll definitely
get him back in the studio at a
future day and continue our discussion but you'll
enjoy it. Here's my interview with rabbi Chaim.
Alright. A little I don't know what the
best term is. Unorthodox,
but very orthodox,
interview to have is with the rabbi of
Utah County, Rabbi Chaim. Did I say that
right? Said it perfectly.
What's your full name? How do you like?
My name is Chaim Zippel. No middle name.
Zippel. Is is middle name not a middle
name is not a Jewish thing or just
not a I'm the only one in my
family without a middle name. Oh, wow. Nice.
I like to tell people we are a
poor family. We can only afford one name.
Nice.
And you are I I mean, how do
you describe your position and what you run
and
all those things?
So my wife and I are co directors
of Chabad of Utah County,
which is a grassroots nonprofit
that works with establishing
a home for Jewish experiences in Utah County,
which means first and foremost, a place where
Jewish people that are moving in. We know
that people are moving in from all over
California,
everywhere
for jobs, for the beautiful
family life here. Yeah. So the Jewish folks
that are heading in and we wanna have
a place to gather together as a community
or to learn more about their faith, to
to try to grow, to try to learn
first and foremost, but also to be a
presence of Judaism for everybody. Yeah. I shared
with you. I just came a minute ago
from speaking at BYU.
Zero people, as far as I know, in
that class were Jewish. Mhmm. But people wanna
learn. They wanna be educated, and we try
to fill that need. Nice. So if you're
a Jewish person in Utah County, like, do
you run the synagogue and things like that?
Or is that that's all encompassed in that?
Yeah. So I think where Judaism
might be a little bit different than some
other faiths in Utah is that prayer
is the thing services,
synagogue, words like that are the things that
you'll tend to see will have the least
attendance. Because
as much as everybody prays, that could be
more of a personal
thing that you do on your own.
The prayers, like on Sabbath and daily, that's
often one of the things that you end
up doing last. Just because it's not the
most pleasant thing in the world. Right? No
one's like, I'm dying to go pray in
synagogue today. Mhmm. Maybe if the rabbi had
a better cantorial voice.
But it's because
you wanna do the social things. Right? It's
like, oh, there's a holiday going on. So
let me go learn about the holiday while
dressing up in costumes, while doing fun activities,
while having fun entertainment.
Those are like, the events are always the
biggest. And then as people continue to grow,
continue to learn more, continue to come for
classes, so it's like, okay. I would love
to come for services. Mhmm. But yeah. So
we have we don't yet have just it's
a funding thing. Eventually, we'll get there. I
don't yet have a full time building, so
everything's out of our home. But every or
I would say most Friday nights, our basement
gets transformed into a synagogue. We have men
and women that come for Friday night services
and whenever else Saturday morning, sometimes whenever else
appropriate. Yeah. So, like, as a Latter day
Saint or as a Christian, I may move
to a new area and that's sort of
where my mind goes. I need to find
a church to attend, but that may not
be the the first thing that they're looking
for. They're more looking for the community of
of Jews. Is that Yeah. Just
because being all in with Judaism,
keeping everything is very challenging, which is why,
like, very often you'll meet people in town
here that are not Jewish, and they'll say,
like, oh, what's your community? Is your community
Orthodox? Is your community reforms different, like, labels
in Judaism? And I say, our community is
everything. Like, if you wanna know how many
people look crazy like I do, it's just
me. It's a party of one,
a family of one.
But people are on all different levels of
their Jewish experience.
The one thing that I think that we
all try to have in common is that
we're all on an upwards trajectory. We're trying
to be doing more and growing.
So
while I pray three times a day, not
everybody's holding there yet. Yet. Mhmm. But even
if you're not holding there yet, you absolutely
wanna come experience the holidays. You wanna experience
community. You wanna you wanna grow together. Yeah.
And so with the maybe ask you, what's
your background as far as coming to Utah
and where you're at now? How did how
did this journey lead here? So I grew
up in Salt Lake. My dad is Italian,
originally from Milan. My mom is Canadian, originally
from Toronto.
They got married and naturally decided that a
fair middle ground normal place to live is
Utah.
Naturally. Sure. There's a the movement that we're
part of is called Chabad.
The Rebbe, who was the leader of the
Chabad movement, started this initiative
of sending couples
to every place possible
so that no matter where a Jewish person
might find themselves, they have an outlet. They
have a place where they can go and
experience meaningful Jewish experiences.
Yeah. So when my parents moved out in
1992,
it was a lot saturated.
So because, like, there were not only states,
like, there were chunks of the country that
were not yet represented. So they were going
through a few different options. They were looking
at Puerto Rico. They were looking at Denmark,
and they were looking at looking at Utah.
And different things fell into place, and Utah
was what was decided. So they got a
blessing from the Rebbe, from the leader of
the Chabad movement to come and launch Chabad
in Salt Lake City, Chabad in Utah, which
didn't only serve the whole state. Like, it
was serving
Montana, Idaho, Wyoming. Like, there was no one
in any of these states.
And they built a it's still not, New
York or Brooklyn or Miami or Los Angeles
here or Israel, but there's a nice amount
of Jewish infrastructure. There's some synagogues. There's Chabad
centers. There's a couple of eateries.
My parents built all that from scratch. So
I grew up here. I grew up in
Salt Lake City in Sugar
House. And and there there are six of
us. I have five siblings. Each of us
sort of took a different
perspective.
Like, I had a couple siblings
that were, like, absolutely no matter what, like,
I'm moving back here to do this. Like,
I want to continue this mission. This is
where I wanna be. This is what I
gotta do. I had some some things that
were, like, absolutely not. And they're I like
to say some of us are normal. They
went out and they got jobs. They're living
in regular places like,
Atlanta, Georgia and Miami, Florida,
going to work every day of nine to
five. I was sort of in between where
I was like, I appreciated and I always
felt good about the work that was being
done and I loved being part of it.
But I was like, if there's an like,
when my parents moved, I looked at it
like there was a real need.
Now a lot of communities, a lot of
the bigger communities are spoken for, and there's
a lot of people looking to go. So
I was like, if there's a need, count
me in. But for me to be eager
to go and to force an opportunity based
off my desire to go, no. Not necessarily.
Mhmm. When I left, I left when I
was 13, 14 to go to get education
in Jewish schools. I was in California. I
was in Pennsylvania. I was in Brooklyn. I
ended up
working in my, low twenties in schools in
Jewish schools. My role was as a program,
like, extracurricular programs. And I saw,
like, how much
energy and how impactful, like, these extra programs
were that you add in these schools that
I didn't grow up with. So I was
like, even if my wife and I are
crazy enough to decide to move somewhere that
doesn't have necessarily the kosher op the food
options and the
entertainment options and the schooling options. Like, maybe
we're crazy enough, but can we make that
decision for our kids?
Because I knew that I grew up without
any other Jewish kids. I mean, I would
say, any other orthodox kids, like, kids like
me to hang out with. Yeah. Like minded
kids.
So it wasn't something that I was, like,
absolutely gonna happen, but the opportunity
continued to it was just showing that there
was a need here repeatedly. Like, my father
has been coming down to Utah County since
almost the first year he opened just because
there's a large amount of treatment centers here
in Provo, in Spanish Fork, and Utah County
for kids from all around the world Mhmm.
Literally
that have all different types of therapy that
they need. Kids at risk mostly. So my
dad's been serviced servicing these centers for years.
And as he Wednesday, which is today, is
his day. I know that my dad is
not in the office on Wednesday. Mhmm. Wednesday
is the one day every single week for
I don't know how many years now that
my dad travels down to Utah County, and
he literally just drives from center to center
to center to center. Mhmm. So And he's
looking for, like, Jewish individuals who he can
minister to or connect with? Or So he
gets the first time you got a call,
someone calls, they're like, is this the rabbi?
Yeah. This is a Jewish kid in Provo,
Utah. Jewish kid doing in Provo, Utah. And
he drives down to the center to go
visit this child, to speak, to be a
friendly face, to be a an ear, to
listen to this child, teenager. And my dad
says, like, I couldn't believe there's Jewish kids
here. And the kid's like, what are you
talking about? Jewish, Jewish, Jewish, Jewish, just pointing
around. Unfortunately, the kids come from all over.
So
he tries as much as possible to be
able to visit these children and to provide
for them, to teach them a little bit,
to learn with them, to to be a
friendly face and and someone that cares. Yeah.
So he's doing these weekly trips, and he's
seeing how the need here is growing. There's,
like, more and more and more people calling
me, like, hey. I live there. And by
the way, I could just well, skip ahead
a minute. I could tell you being here,
like, how many people we find now that
are like, oh, yeah. I moved here four
years ago, five years ago from California.
When I got here, I looked. I know
there's a center in Salt Lake. It was
too far, so I just went to hiding.
Like, I just Mhmm. You know, it was
too far, too much of commitment. So my
dad started seeing that need and it kept
presenting itself to us. And we felt that
this was the move that was necessary for
us. I'll mention my wife was really the
driving factor in that one, and she didn't
grow up crazy like I did. She was
born in Israel and she lived in Brooklyn.
She went to a Jewish school every single
day that was a block from her house.
She grew up with a kosher bodega. For
those who are not from Brooklyn, a bodega
is just a store that they decided to
give a new word to for no reason.
But
the kosher bodega on one block and and
another one on the next block, And she
was like, absolutely. We gotta do this. So
she grew up in a place that you'd
say wasn't as orthodox as what your your
background. Is that what you're saying? Way more.
Oh, way more. Okay. She grew up every
inch of her life was there were couple
hundred Jewish kids in her class alone. Thousands
of You'd expected her to wanna go back
that kind of a area. Right? Yeah. Wow.
You mentioned this, the Haban movement.
Is that because, you know, we come from
a very institutionalized
church where there's, you know, a next layer.
You can talk to this guy, and if
you don't know, talk to the next guys.
But, is that similar to I mean, how
would you describe that movement, or what is
it? Is it more institutionalized or more
more open that way? If I'm understanding your
question correctly, let let me know based on
the answer if I understood
you.
It's not really one large organization like you
might compare to have the way the church
functions. Like, very often, my dad had this,
and I have this, and people will say,
like, oh, it's so nice. Like, as if,
like, corporate in New York gave you a
seed money to go get started and they
pay your salary and you're you're representing the
company.
Like, there is a centralized organization. So, like,
you have to, you know, abide by certain
rules to represent this organization
and keep true to the mission. But, like,
financially, you're a % on your own, and
they're not, like, calling you being, like, hey,
this month, we're all gonna do this. Mhmm.
They're getting better at the sense that they're
offering more resources
just because common experiences are being had in
5,000 different centers around the world. And everybody
needs an idea for a holiday
theme and that type of thing, some professional
development,
but each center sort of functions on their
own. Mhmm. Now in every state, it works
differently. Meaning, like, there's a head Chabad rabbi
in every state. That's my dad in Utah.
I always say, by the way, the rabbi
in Park City, not related.
Okay. Which is just reminding us Uh-huh. That
it's not a family business. It's my dad
always was looking for the most qualified person.
It happened to be in a couple of
experiences
that was a relative. But, the rabbi in
Park City is a reminder that it's not
always about that. My point is, I never
so in some states, like, the rabbi in
charge has, hey, we don't do x y
z. When you wanna do x y z,
these are the rules. And, like, there's also
sometimes, like, very often we're we're fortunate, like,
sometimes the main center will help a little
bit with funding and definitely help get you
off the off the ground. But in every
state, it sort of works differently, but it's
definitely not, like,
system
in such a way. Yeah.
So when you say, you know, we don't
do x y z, what are some examples
of things that people would be looking for
from you that maybe you you don't do?
Or I don't know about that. It's more
so first of all, we don't deal with
that in
Utah. My dad is is pretty understanding and
and helpful and in in all those ways.
I know in one state where they have
a lot of centers, it's a very Jewish
populated state. The Lee Chabad rabbi there has
different rules
for events
that correspond with Jewish law. Okay. Which means
basically he has the the option where he
could create policies
or he could just let each center because
they're self funded make their own decisions and
they'll all eventually,
at least we assume, end up abiding by
Jewish law.
But
the rabbi in the state decided, no. I'm
creating certain rules that we have to abide
by even if they're a little bit beyond
or in some very often, it's like, no.
You guys just everyone has their
rabbi rabbinical leadership that they'll speak with and
make sure that they're falling in line with
that. Yeah. And then just growing up in
Utah, like, being in such a high density
Latter day Saint world, like, what comes to
mind? Like, what was that like, or was
it hard to find that community? Did you
find yourselves at, you know, youth nights at
our churches or anything like that? Like, what
what was it like growing up as a
Jew, a very orthodox Jew in this area?
So I three thoughts flew into my head.
I'll see how many of them I remember
to say. Alright. Number one, we did an
event here. It was actually in Park City.
I was helping arrange it. It was in
Park City on December 25. There was a
Hanukkah event. And the singer, who's a friend
of mine, lands here, and he says
he's like, I'm like he's like, I'm like,
hey. What do you need? He's like, I'm
a coffee snob. So I was like, so
you're saying you don't want my Keurig? He's
like, no. I don't first, I don't do
foam cups. And second of all, I don't
in a nice way, not in a good
way. We're actually close. So he said I
was just with him a couple days ago.
So he says, let's find a coffee shop.
So I said, Ellie, that's his first name.
You're in Utah,
and it's December 25.
You have
0% chance of finding an open coffee shop
today.
Especially without bone cups. Right? So okay. Bone
cups.
So he says, let's see. And he goes
and he googles, and we find ourselves in
the heart of Salt Lake City at a
coffee shop that's bustling on December 25. I
use that to lead into my second point,
and that is I'm all the time asked
for as long as I can remember, like,
what's it like living in Utah? Like, do
you see Mormon people around? And I'm like,
you know that they don't, like, have like,
they they're not like us. They don't walk
around with, like, these identifiers on their hats.
So you know, like, that's a Mormon. Like
Uh-huh. It's just it's regular people. So they're
like or like, okay. I'm coming to Utah.
Let's see how many we can find. I'm
like, what what are you looking for?
Average people. So in that regard,
it never was something that ever felt funny
or felt different to me. I will say
and I successfully remembered all three points. Nice.
So I mentioned I just came from BYU.
So one of the students asked
he's like, have you ever had
any antisemitism
you had to deal with and how did
you respond?
So what I shared with this person, with
a student,
was that
I always say, and this is true. I'm
gonna make a disclaimer here. You might get
some hate in your comments. Okay. This is
true of Utah County. I wouldn't say this
is true of all of Utah. This is
true of Utah County. Sali County is their
own their own rules. But Utah County, because
of the the high density of religious people
and religious families, it is probably the least
antisemitic
place on Earth. Wow. Like, everybody is loving
and caring. Mhmm.
Actually
so after October 7, we did an event
here for the whole community, not just for
the Jewish community, but in support of Israel.
And we we had these signs that say,
Utah stands with Israel. I think it's what
it said, something to that extent. And
I put one in my lawn. I know
a lot of it, like, politicians did, and
a lot of friends did. I put one
in my lawn. And we had, like, a
crazy windstorm,
and the leg on it snapped. And I
didn't get a chance to fix it right
away. Just, oh, it's not the biggest deal.
It's not like the top of my priority
list as the rabbis have a lawn sign
that lets people know I stand with Israel.
Yeah. And I wake up the next morning,
and someone had come during the night and
reinforced it with, like, the steel rod. Like
like, not like an easy fix. Like, put
it in the ground Wow. And zip tied
it so that it's standing. No idea who.
Couple weeks later, the other leg
knocks out. And next morning, exact same thing.
Woke up, steel rod, took a picture of
it, actually.
Steel rod zip tied in the ground. That's
Utah County. Even the wind can't be anti
Semitic.
The wind was mildly anti Semitic,
but Utah County picked up the pieces. Wow.
Wow. That's incredible.
Sorry. What I shared was my family was
in Israel on October 7. We were in
the South Of Israel. It was crazy.
We did not have our phones on because
it was on a Saturday. We don't use
our phones on on the Sabbath. Mhmm.
And when I turned my phone on Saturday
night, one of the things that, like, really
struck me, like, it really, like like, hit
me deep
was someone shared it ended up on my
Twitter feed, x, sorry,
a video
from downtown Salt Lake City. There was, like,
a couple of I don't know if there's
university students or somebody, like, dancing,
celebrating what happened. And I'll remind you, this
was on October 7, not even October 8.
This was before
Israel responded, and people had all different types
of opinions and that it's a different story
a little bit after that. This was raw.
It was terrorist attack happens. So if this
was in New York, I wouldn't have thought
twice. Like, I would even be like, why
is this news? Because we're familiar. We're used
to this. But when I see this in
Utah,
it was, like, shocking to me because I
think that illustrates that reaction, that feeling illustrates
the the constant feeling of support, again, at
least in Utah County Mhmm. That we are
subject to. It's just a division that I
make. Yeah. I still think Salt Lake City
in comparison to many other places in this
country, we're a lot better off. But there's
there's a from my experience, there's a clear
difference between Salt Lake and Lehi, New Smythe
County. Yeah. Interesting.
Take me just is your role as a
rabbi, like, is that something
that any anybody can have ambitions for and
become? Or what's the process like? Or
So the word rabbi can mean a lot
of things, first of all. Mhmm.
My term rabbi here means that I am
the the spiritual leader of our community here.
Then there's rabbis that are like rabbinic experts,
meaning that
Jewish law is is deeply complicated.
And at any point, very confusing questions can
come up. So basic questions, yeah, I can
answer those. I I went through rabbinical ordination.
I learned in Yeshiva in school for years.
But too often, like, a question like, a
complicated question comes up or more than that.
Sometimes it's not even like a like a
doubt. Like, what do I do here? Sometimes
it's like, I need to know if I
can get authorization to do x y z.
And in that case, you need a rabbinic
expert.
So I have a rabbi in California that
I call for all all these type of
questions. Interesting. Okay. So I'll call him for
guidance. But rabbi can mean different things in
that regard. But, yeah, there are stories
which are deeply inspiring. There's one that comes
to mind of a rabbi that moved to
a college in Texas,
and he worked as a Chabad rabbi trying
to reconnect Jews there with their roots and
and help them grow and bring them back
to a life of Torah, life of Judaism,
even those that didn't grow up with it.
And there was a particular student at Texas,
I think I remember exactly which university it
was, became close with this rabbi, ended up
putting his university education aside. Maybe he graduated,
maybe not, I don't remember. But ended up,
like,
deciding he wants to go to Yeshiva. He
wants to go to school and learn a
% of his time, became
religious for the first time in his life.
His team did not grow up with it,
got married, and moved to become a Chabad
rabbi in that same university working working for
that rabbi that turned his life around. Interesting.
So is it something that everyone can aspire
to? Absolutely. Do you have the the to
put your head done to get it done?
I don't even know if I would in
that in that circumstance. But aspire, absolutely. Yeah.
It's a it's a long road, and it
might be easier to become a brain surgeon
at times, right,
with with what's required there. But
do you find, like, with Latter day Saints
I mean, you know, we have a deep
belief in the children of Israel, and we
sometimes you know, we we have beliefs that
sort of connect us to the house of
house of Israel and things as do you
kinda feel like there's this
overemphasis of Latter day Saints sort of wanting
to connect with your people? I mean, does
that make sense? I mean, what comes to
mind when or what have you seen? Yeah.
Absolutely.
I can't say this on theirs. We'll edit
this part out. We have a couple in
this room.
It's alright. We have a studio audience here.
Studio audience.
Yeah. That's why if you hear if you
heard the laughs in the back, it's not
a laugh track. Leading Saints podcast does not
use a laugh track. That's right. We're very
serious people.
We have a studio audience with us. That's
right. And I did not bring them.
I invited them. So they're not they're not
being paid. Unless I'm sorry.
Absolutely.
I mentioned that we don't have
yet a full time center. We're based out
of our home. So all the time all
the time when we put a flyer out
there, when you put an event out there,
to put a class, when you put whatever
it is, we're getting requests like, hey. I
wanna learn about your faith. I wanna come
pop in. Can I do that? And it's
tough. It really is tough, but too often
we find that we have to say, like,
while we're absolutely okay and we appreciate the
support, like, we're just, like, maxed with capacity.
Mhmm. I was like, if we had a
center, it would likely be filled all the
time because you have all different type like,
types of people. Yeah. Very often, Latter day
Saints that wanna come and experience,
and it's just a space restriction. But, yeah,
absolutely, the desire is there. Yeah. Yeah. And
then I mean, there's
some similarities, but they can maybe panel comparison.
Like, we say, oh, you've got a, you
know, a a health code, a diet code.
Like, well, so do we. Right? And but
they're very different. I mean I mean, as
far as the you've talked about the complexities
of of these things. I started my talk
at BYU three with a confession that I
had just had a coffee. Okay. I apologized.
And others in the room had had bacon
and, you know, it's like Yeah. I mentioned
it. So so, Kurt, you and I met
at the comedy show that our community posted
a couple weeks ago. And I I'm not
gonna succeed at saying this even with 30%
of the delivery the comedian did. But I
believe that what he opened with was that
when he was on campus at BYU filming
content, he had a disagreement with one of
the students
over what tastes better or what is more
important or what someone's missing out on more,
whether that's coffee or I believe he said
shellfish.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That he said. Uh-huh.
And he had to bring in a third
party to settle it because either obviously, neither
of them could could comment. And the third
party said it was coffee. So Yeah. Again,
I I don't say this to provoke. So
Yeah. I'm sorry. Confessions. Sure.
And, you know, as I've had interactions with,
like, some of my evangelical friends, they look
at me like, what's the deal with coffee?
And I'm like, don't find reason behind it.
It is what it is. Right? I can
maybe come up with some reasons why. But
is that do you kinda feel that way
a lot with some of your restrictions or
is like, it's not worth trying to explain
why we do this? It's just the law.
So first of all, I love that you
guys don't drink coffee
for the simple reason that I'll all the
time be, like, speaking at interfaith events, and
I'll start talking about some of our practices
or kosher or something like that. And, like,
you start to feel when the room is,
like like, raising an eyebrow, like, is this
guy is this guy serious? And then it's,
like, right at that moment where I pop
in and I'm like, but you guys don't
drink coffee.
And it's like, okay.
Fine. Fair. Fair play.
Yeah. So I love that. Yeah. It's exactly
like you're saying, and it's also not exactly
like you're saying. Okay. It's not it's just
what we do because I don't have the
patience to explain it. It's the Torah has
613
mitzvahs,
613
do's and don'ts. Mhmm. Every single one of
the 613 do's and don'ts fits into one
of three boxes.
K? Box number one is called in Hebrew
Mishpatim. Those are the laws that make a
ton of sense. So had the Torah not
told us to do that, we'd probably not
do it. Does the I don't know if
there's a I'm blanking on the exact word
for it, but does the the code of
laws and rules in LDS faith tell you
not to kill? I mean, other than, like,
the 10 commandments or, you know, but My
point is no. And if it doesn't, you
still don't because Right. Right. A, that's a
law, and you don't wanna go to prison.
But, b, it makes a lot of sense
because homicide is a bad idea. Right. Right.
Theft is a bad idea.
Being immoral is a bad idea. Mhmm. So
you could try this out. If you go
home, you Google the list go and find
on Wikipedia, list of the 613
mitzvahs, 613 do's and don'ts in in Judaism,
and then start going through them. See, let
me let me try this. So one box
is the ones that make a ton of
sense. Had the Torah not told us, we
might do them anyways because that's logical.
Box number two are ones that remind us
of something called Eidos in Hebrew, such as
Shabbat.
God created the world in six days. On
the seventh day, he rested. So for us,
every seventh day, we rest. If the Torah
didn't tell us to do so, we wouldn't
do that on our own. Right. But we
understand why. Mhmm. Then you have the the
third and the least popular box. The least
popular box, the ones that people like the
least. In Hebrew, it's called.
Is a decree, is a literal translation. There
are mitzvahs that we are given,
and the reason why we do it is
because I said so, because god said so.
Mhmm. There are a couple of examples. One
of those is kosher. There actually
is no reason
why pig, why bacon, why pork is not
kosher and steak is kosher. There is not.
This is always the thing that people spend
the most time on, meaning, I'll say, of
other faiths, especially trying to get to the
bottom of it. The first time I spoke
at BYU about Kosher, their the professor sent
me who's who's become a close friend at
this point, sent me the curriculum that they're
working on. He's like, here, if you wanna
prepare, this is this is what we're what
we're basing our lesson off of. So if
you can, like yeah. If you wanna, you
know, sync up. And the entire curriculum was
like, so here's
one reason why, and here's the second reason
why. And I I walked in and I'm
like, guys,
there only is one reason why. And the
reason why is because God said so, and
it's not based off human logic. God is
way beyond human logic. And if you're an
employee at any company and you opt to
only do the
work that you feel like doing or you
understand or you only wanna show up on
the days that you feel like showing up,
you're gonna be fired. You're a bad employee.
Same thing in class. If you're a student
and you only take the tests that for
the classes that you like, you're gonna fail.
With God even more so. And that is
becoming, by the way, harder and harder as
the generations go on because in 2025, we
wanna we wanna be intellectual. We wanna do
what we understand and what we feel like
and what we connect with. And while that's
important,
you can't lose
that aspect of your life, especially in religion,
but in relationships that will help you in
every way of life. You can't lose that
notion of doing something, even if you don't
understand it. Yeah. Kosher is because God said
so. Will you find
explanations in different books that could try after
the fact to explain what may be the
underlying reason? Yeah. Mhmm. Nachmanides deals with it.
My monadides deals with it. There's plenty of
people that deal with that back and forth,
but none of those are the reason why.
The reason why is because god said so.
Yeah. Like, human nature, we wanna put it
in that first box of, like, well, obviously,
there's logic behind this, and let's find it,
and then we'll all understand. Right? But then
you discover there's there's no logic or there's
things we we don't do that feels like
maybe we should do that because the logic's
there. But no. No. No. It all comes
back to the, well, god said so. And
Cannot yeah. And we cannot lose. Like, that's
Yeah.
That is something that, like, I think that,
like, our kids need to be reminded and
reminded and reminded of. Like, as a generations
go on, it's more about like, Hey, like
don't be such a rough, don't speak so
roughly with your kids. It's all about like,
you know, like don't tell them no, let
them make their own decisions. It's all about
like, no, like let the kids make.
Some things we have to instill that there's
authority.
And if the generation,
if the next generation grows up where everything
is about what I feel like, and everything's
about my understanding,
they're going to struggle and they're going to
have a hard time with religion and they're
going to have a hard time with holding
down a job. And I think that we're
we're even seeing that a little bit. Mhmm.
While it's important that we understand things, because
that enables us to be a lot more
passionate when we do it, we cannot lose
the
notion of some things are beyond our understanding.
Yeah. Yeah. I I think that's powerful, and
and we lose that like like you mentioned.
You know, in our faith tradition, there's such
a strong foundation or a principle I'd I'd
say better said is as far as, like,
conversion or testimony, you know, oftentimes as we
articulate our faith, we go to a place
of, like, maybe an experience we had that
was hyper
spiritual that really shifted our understanding and feelings
towards God.
Is that similar
in your world as far as, like I
mean, why why are you so committed? You
know, was there experience or a moment or
is it do you frame it differently?
It's all about experience. Everybody I think for
everybody, it's about experiences. But some people everybody
has their journey in life. Let's say it
like that. So some people, it's all about
like, it took an experience to shake you
up. Trying to find the right the right
words on yours because I actually spoke with
a professor at BYU about this. Something that
I think the LDS faith and the Jewish
faith have in common is there's a lot
of
rules. Right? It's not about, like, some faiths
are literally just, like, not to put it
down, but, like, as long as you show
up on Sunday and you do your thing,
like, that is your religion. Mhmm. And then
everything else is your personal life. Mhmm.
Judaism is the opposite extreme. Like, Judaism is
the strongest religion in the sense that there
are rules that pertain to everywhere all the
time. But I think the LDS faith is
somewhere in between on that one. There's definitely
a lot more active involvement and active rules.
Correct? Yeah. I'd agree. Mhmm. So I think
it's something that both faiths share is that
people will tend
to, in their teenage years, rebel a little
bit if it's being shoved down your throat.
It's like push back. Let me let me
try. Let me I'm gonna go sneak I'm
joking on this one. Just expressing the point.
Yeah. I'll sneak a coffee in my room.
Uh-huh. Right? Or the Torah wants me to
not be I wouldn't say the Torah. It's
customary in my faith not to be in
a coed school. I'm gonna go talk to
a girl without my parents talking about it.
So now some people
will rebel to the extreme,
and that experience will eventually lead them back
to a drastic turnaround. And some people never
really step out of line to such an
extreme. They're, like, just constantly, like, pushing back
a little bit, and then they're saying, like,
no. This is what I want. This is
what I like. So everybody's different. Everybody's different.
Sometimes it's very much guided by our experiences,
and some people just it's small things that
keep us appreciating all along the way without
stepping out of line and without you know
what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. And and sort
of some people are okay with that or
can sit with that. Like, yes, the teenagers
sort of wavering, but maybe it's to the
greater good, the greater story that leads them
back to faith. Is that fair to say?
I mean and some are more comfortable with
that than others. So something, no. No. This
is terrible. This should never happen. The challenge
is keeping objective when it's someone that that
you love and, like, you want them to
do what you're doing, but you also want
them to make their own decisions.
It's just about, I think, remaining objective.
Yeah. Like we talked about these children, our
youth in Utah. Right? So when a child
is struggling and then then it comes to
the point that they have to go to
therapy, they have to go get better.
Sometimes the parents will be like, what do
you mean send them to Utah? How can
you keep Kosher in Utah? How could you
how could they pray three times a day
with a minyan, which means with a quorum
of 10 people in Utah? How could they
do daily Torah study in Utah? And my
father very often has to step in and
remind them or or if we're speaking to
one of these families because we're starting to
step into that role a little bit. Like,
right now, you're talking about life or death.
Right now, you're talking about your child's health.
And sometimes what's necessary
is to just
understand that that all has to go on
pause for a minute so that the child
could be healthy. The Torah says,
is
a Hebrew word means you should live by
them, which means
health comes first. I'm diabetic.
Okay? Which means I wear an insulin pump,
which is electric, even on Shabbat. Right?
There's no concept of being fanatics
of saying no. On Shabbat, I'm just gonna
take my chances. Yeah.
No. On the contrary, actually,
I remember there's a certain diabetic product that
was invented a few years ago, maybe at
this point, ten years ago, maybe a little
less, that could check your blood sugar constantly.
I used to prick my finger Mhmm. And
now it's it's electric. It's on my phone,
and it checks your blood sugar constantly.
And there was, like, an article written from
a Halakhic expert, from a rabbi that that's
an expert in Torah law that was saying
that while we might not
be eager to go switch because it's me
feel weird being on your phone on Sabbath,
but, actually, this is a much better option
than pricking your finger. Mhmm. Right? Now pricking
your finger causing yourself to bleed on the
Shabbat is also an issue. And, also, you're
in better control if you're constantly being checked
versus checking once in a while. So, yeah,
Torah says be healthy. So I, first of
all, have completely lost sight of your question,
I think.
But now that I'm on a tangent,
health comes first. Yeah. So also in these
cases where your child is struggling,
health comes first. So you have to just
be okay with you know, obviously, you try
to create a system in which if the
child is holding there and they want that,
that you could try to have as much
as as much Jewish infrastructure as possible while
they're here. But you can't shove it down
their throats while they're struggling with other things.
Maybe that is even what's causing them to
struggle. Mhmm. You gotta first focus on health,
and then you get back to the rest.
Yeah. And, obviously, consult with rabbinic experts before
doing this and not off a one off
thing you heard from a rabbi in a
podcast in a basement in I can't tell
you where we are. We're we're in Orem.
Undisclosed
location. That's right.
So along the lines as far as conversion,
like, obviously, in our faith tradition, we literally
send people out to go proselytize
and, you know, gather Israel as we we
say it. Is that is that a tension
point in your faith? Like, is your desire
that more and more even
Latter day Saints or Christians or atheists will
become Jewish?
Or how do you frame just that, like,
gathering people and and converting them to the
the law that you follow?
There's a fantastic piece. I'm a comedian on
this. But, like, I I almost wanna, like,
play the sound bite into the microphone, but
I won't, and I can't. Just because anyways,
logistics. But I think that Judaism is different
from any other faith and especially different from
the LDS faith in the sense that we
don't pursue conversion
at all at all. Meaning, I say this
all the time. If somebody came over to
me and they're like, rabbi, I'm really craving
bacon right now. Should I go eat bacon?
And they were not Jewish. Uh-huh. I'll be
like, absolutely. Like, I hear it's fantastic.
Like, I can't, so don't offer me any.
Wish I could, but I can't.
But you absolutely should because it's not our
view that the whole world should be Jewish.
It's also not our view that the whole
world should do what we do. Like,
we are descendants of Abraham and Isaac and
Jacob and and 12 tribes and from there
and, like, continues to go down Moses.
So these are the rules that we have
to live by,
and some people in the world are normal.
I say it as a joke, but my
point is others do not have to do
what we do, and it's not our desire
that everybody should be Jewish.
There's something called the seven laws of Noah,
the seven Noahide laws.
That is the one initiative we take that
these were laws that God did not give
to the Jewish people. These are laws that
God gives the children of Noah, which the
entire population, the entire world are descendants of.
And these are seven laws. I don't I
don't think I'm gonna list them here. You
people could Google them. They're very easily accessible.
These are laws that everybody should live by.
And these are laws that if everybody lived
by the world, be a lot more of
a godly place, and they're not too hard.
So that is one thing that we're like,
okay. Let's spread that message. Let's spread the
the message of the seven laws of Noah.
But as far as making the whole world
Jewish, absolutely not. And this is where that
comedian's piece comes in. Actually, like, we'll get
calls from people that are like, oh, I
wanna convert to Judaism.
Very often, it's like people that, like, try
every faith, and we're like, I don't know
if that's for you. Yeah. It's literally the
comedian says, like, the comedian says, you wanna
convert to to this faith? Oh, dog. You're
in. You convert to that faith? You're in.
You wanna convert to Judaism? I don't know
if you're a good fit. Meaning
Yeah.
The reason why it's a challenge is, first
of all, it's super challenging
living as a fully Torah observant Jew in
Utah. It's very hard. Mhmm. So very often,
we've had plenty of conversions, by the way,
that have happened over the years and people
that were very passionate about it. And the
next step always was that they moved away.
Mhmm. I don't know of. There are no
Jewish
converts through Chabad,
through Orthodox conversion that are still living in
Utah.
Interesting. Because it's not a thriving
Jewish community. It's a growing Jewish community. It's
not a thriving. It's not there's not a
hundred restaurants and 50 synagogues.
Every town
needs to have multiple synagogues because there's all
the ones that I don't go to. Mhmm.
Right? If there's one synagogue, it's boring. That's
the one I go to. You need all
the ones you don't go to. You need
to have classes, like, lots going on, and
we don't have the infrastructure for that. Yeah.
And so very often, there's a process to
it too where there's, like, courts. There's rabbinic
courts in bigger Jewish communities that process conversions.
I can't process a conversion. You need rabbinic
court. And very often, they'll be like, how
far do you live from synagogue? How are
you gonna walk there on Saturday when you
can't drive? Oh, yeah. Like, what are you
doing for Kosher? What do you need to
educate your children?
So very often, like, we'll be the first
ones to discourage it just because of the
challenges they're within. Yeah. And, like, I have
never had a piece of pork in my
life, a piece of bacon in my life.
Right? I don't know what I'm missing, so
I'm okay with it. Right. Same with coffee
for me, but I mean, it smells pretty
good. But Sorry. I hope I'm not tempting
you here today.
Somebody that grew up eating it all the
time, like, I wanna be Jewish. So, like,
that thing that was a %
acceptable today. I again, I just said, I
would encourage you to eat it. Just went
overnight. Let's say you you you process your
conversion at 12:01,
daylight savings time. That today, that's a %
allowed. No problem. You did enjoy yourself. And
tomorrow, all of a sudden, it's a sin.
It's a problem.
But we're humans, and we have desires.
So now you're gonna let's say, maybe you're
firm enough to not have it, but maybe
you're not. So now you just, for no
reason at all, just switched from making this
activity a % okay to making this something
that you're filled with guilt over and something
that you're not supposed to be doing. For
what reason? Yeah.
So, I mean, a big tension point in,
like, Christianity,
including Latter day Saints, is this feeling of,
like, the decline in of faith or people
leaving
our faith or our children, you know, not
remaining as active.
Is that a tension point in your perspective
that you see, or how do you frame
that? That's something that I devoted my wife
and I devoted our life to helping support.
I wouldn't say it's a tension point. Mhmm.
It happens. So let's find ways to I
guess that this goes to the core of
how would you define a tension point. Mhmm.
But it's something that we're that is what
exactly what we are committed to, to helping
people that have
grown up without any
Jewish
experience, whether that's because
two generations ago or three generations ago, however
long ago, somebody left the faith. But now
let's just be there and be supportive
and be a place where they can come
and learn without judgment and on their own
level. Yeah. And so at least that you're
you're gonna make a space where that can
happen. You're not necessarily
worried or going out there and making sure,
like, you don't lose people. But you It
goes hand in hand. But, like, our community
is not filled with people that look like
me that I'm worried we might lose.
Right? Because they don't tend to live in
Utah. Yeah. Our community is filled with people
that are on the upwards trajectory, people that
are making their way back, people that are
learning, and they're looking to grow.
But, yeah, I think as as a nation
again, I don't live in Brooklyn, so I'm
I'm not that's not something that I struggle
with. But as a nation, like, yeah, we
we're trying to just make sure that it's
something that is positive. Yeah. Something that people
want to stick to. Yeah. So as a
faith leader, what would you say? Like, what
keeps you up at night? Like, what worries
you the most? My kids screaming,
mostly.
At least that was last night. Okay.
But generally speaking
What keeps me up at night? What do
you worry about as a faith leader? Ah,
okay. Your your phrase get fucked because I
Is that better? I know how to put
it out. I go to sleep.
The honestly, just because you're you're over that
that can of worms, like, there's a book
called the Tanya.
Beautiful book. I learned it with a lot
of people. It's it's Kabbalah.
And a lot of what the Tanya discusses
is, like, the struggle a lot of people
have between, like, their desire to do good
and their and their desire for self indulgence.
Mhmm. And, like, one of the principles I
laid out, I was just learning with somebody
recently. And this person I was learning with
has been a physician for a number of
years, and I learned this with him, and
he's like, I wanna try that. And he
came back to me. He's like, that worked.
And I'm like, but this is, like, one
zero one. Like but the Tanya
opened his eyes to it. The Tanya's point
was every person has the ability easily
to not sin.
Easily.
How?
Because your brain is a lot stronger than
your desires.
So if you
use your brain
to actively push out of your mind
any thought of sin, you could just not
do it. Meaning, even if it's we don't
have the ability to stop thinking about something.
If I tell you right now, stop thinking
about my hat. You can't stop thinking about
my hat. Sure. What you could do is
you could easily force yourself
to think about something else. Mhmm. I'm going
to sit here right now, and the way
that I'm gonna stop again, the more you're
feeding your brain, don't think about the hat,
don't think about the hat. You're gonna think
about that. Mhmm. But I'm going to think
about what I ate for breakfast. And I
want to think about what I could eat
for breakfast tomorrow. If you force yourself
with a mental toughness to think about that,
then the the thought of my hat or
in the context of sin
leaves your mind. Mhmm. So I use that
all the time when I have to sleep.
If I need to go to sleep and
have a humongous event the next day and,
like, that's the type of thing you read
that people lose sleep over, like, again,
what is in your control is the ability
to fall asleep. If it's gonna continue to
overtake you while you're sleeping, that you would
get you can't control yourself so deeply, but
you just put on your brain It happens
all the time. I'm going to think about
something else. I'm gonna think about anything
besides
whatever is giving me anxiety right now. So
what keeps me up at night? Hopefully, nothing.
I try for nothing.
What keeps me up because I'm still working
and working and working and not ready to
go to sleep, that all the time. But
what are my concerns? I wouldn't say that
I I have
things that are giving me anxiety. It's more
just we're trying to proactively find as much
as possible as we could do to make
an impact on the community. Yeah. Are there
communal
nightmares given no. It's just what like, there
are bigger people for that. Yeah. There are
bigger, more important, more powerful people that are
tasked with those positions. For me, it's what
can we do to continue to make an
impact.
And when you say impact, like, to what
end would you say? To what end?
To make someone's life better, to make the
world a better place, to make the world
a more religious place Mhmm. To help I'm
not talking about on a global scale because
a global scale, by the way, it's very
hard to feel on a small scale to
make an impact on someone's life. Yeah. It's
much easier to fill and do within your
community, right, rather than And and that ultimately
is how you do on a bigger scale.
Yeah. Some people excuse themselves from doing on
a small scale because you're busy with global
aspirations, and it's it's hard to do it
like that. There are some people that can
pull it off. But Yeah. Well, we're about
out of time, and I feel bad we
went through this whole interview. And I haven't
even mentioned the name Jake Ratzliff,
until now. Ratzlaff. Ratzlaff.
There's our first step of correction, Ratzlaff.
Is that right?
It's not it's come on. It's the BYU
starting quarterback. Right? Put some respect on that,
Namjoon. No. They're let us all be corrected.
Retsloff. You don't you don't watch enough ESPN,
do you? I'm sure. As well.
Do they do they do a terrible job
as well? The national media? Do they do
better? These guys have especially, like, as American
sports are becoming more and more like an
international thing, like, these guys have to practice
those names. Yeah. Yeah. Are you a basketball
guy? Oh, sure. Giannis Antetokounmpo. Oh, okay. That
one I haven't got. How many people trip
over that? I still hear people like Luca
Don
Donkic. Don Donsic.
You gotta practice these things in sports. I'm
doing it. So what's the I mean, you're
you're his rabbi. Is that a fair way
to frame it? I think at this point,
now that he's been enough headlines, he has
a lot of different rabbis that will,
but, yeah, here in Utah at least. The
closest one if he needs to. I just
spoke to him half an hour ago. Nice.
Awesome.
Any story there? I mean, what what is
what is that how's that shift to the
dynamic in Utah County with having our starting
quarterback Jewish or any anything comes to mind?
I think that Jake is doing Jake has
the opportunity to do what your podcast aims
to do just so quickly.
Mhmm. And that is that Jake is able
to build bridges. Like, antisemitism
or or lack of respect between faiths comes
from
a lack of familiarity
with a person, I think. Like, when you're
looking at something as an abstract topic, an
abstract thing, because you have no experience with
people from that faith. Right? But I'll never
forget my first couple times driving into Provo
after we moved here. I was like, what
is going on? Like, I grew up as
a jazz fan. You don't drive through Salt
Lake City or anywhere and see people's, like,
porches, like, decked out with with Utah Jazz
flags. Yeah. When you drive into Provo, like,
you see BYU
everywhere, BYU decals, BYU license plates, BYU flags,
BYU everything BYU.
I was, like, amazed by it. And the
leading quarterback
of that team that you love is Jewish.
It's like, okay, like, you're getting all this
exposure
to somebody so quickly because
they share what you should like. He loves
football. I love football. He loves BYU. I
love BYU. It's like building that bridge so
quickly. Yeah. That's cool. Anything else we haven't
covered or important to squeeze in here? For
the two point o. It's part two. You'll
do two part two with me?
Of course, please. You bring our studio audience
like this here? Yes. Couple of diet Cokes
for my friend over here.
Maybe a coffee for you without without a
phone cup. Never drink a coffee here.
Hey. I with no offense, they can hear
you. So
awesome. Well, last question I have for you.
Well, I We'll put some vague mugs, and
we could pretend it's water. There there we
go. There we go. Oh, you need you
need your branded like, that's podcast one zero
one. Please cut this out. I forget. Branson.
Branson, please cut this out of the podcast.
Podcast one zero one before the mics because,
like, some people will make do with, like,
ho these are fancy. The swag. Homemade mics
is the the branded
so if so there's two ways to do
it. There's, like, the branded mugs Uh-huh. With
your logo, or there's, like, the mugs that
have, like, product placement, like an advertisement. Yes.
Yes. Yes. But But we just have to
be very clear that it's not coffee in
the mug. I need a The judgment. A
Swig mug right here. Swig needs to sponsor
this podcast. Okay. Let's go ahead. I'm just
gonna resume. Alright. Right. Right. I'm joking. You
can put that. I just don't wanna be,
like, putting down the podcast that has invited
me here. That's great. So two questions to
finish off. One, if people do want more
information, whether in Utah County or elsewhere, I
mean, is there anywhere you'd send them? Do
you want them calling? Maybe you just want
them to leave you alone on on the
Sabbath? I don't know.
They they will not be able to reach
me on the Sabbath. I assure you. Yes.
Yes. My phone is off. Jewishutahcounty.com
or we're we try to be pretty active
on Instagram and Facebook. Yeah. I just this
morning, I posted I told you we're trying
to document our day. We'll post from here
too. I posted, oh, we're at BYU, and
I I went and gave the class, and
I pulled my phone out after because we're
not huge. We're a few hundred followers. Pull
my phone out, and I had a text
from someone. Hey. What class are you speaking
in? Like, can I come join? Oh, wow.
I was like, sorry. Tomorrow. We're back tomorrow.
But Cool. So Instagram and Facebook, Jewish Utah
County. Nice. Last question I have, and it's
sort of modified from the one I typically
ask is, as you reflect on your time
as a spiritual
leader, how has being a leader helped you
become a better follower of your faith? Oh,
it's
so easy.
Some people,
like, have a really hard time
focusing on themselves,
on, like, when you reach moments of intensity
that you have to observe. Some people want
that, and it's like, I need my moment
to focus.
For some people, like, you're just wired
to work. You're wired to be busy. You're
wired to help people. When you have to
stop and, like, focus on yourself, it's like
it's hard. And as far as I've seen,
like, there are people on each extreme. So,
like, what I'm describing, some people are like,
yeah. That's me. And some people are gonna
be like, what are you talking about? Like,
I wish I had the time to focus
on myself more. But, like, when you are
let's say, when it comes to a holiday
observance
or an initiative that you're pushing and you're
you're helping others,
it just makes an impact on you, like,
accidentally.
So, like, it's just yeah. I've always been
a person that had a much easier time
feeling the intensity of a day, whether it's,
like, with the high holidays or or Hanukkah
or anything else in between. Right? Hanukkah.
When you're with your family, you might not
even feel it as much, even though that's
the way it should be, as much as
when you're doing it on no sleep, throwing
crazy programs and running in circles, like, you
end up with a lot deeper of a
feeling for it that way. That's how my
brain is wired.
That concludes this episode of the Leading Saints
podcast. Hey. Listen. Would you do me a
favor? You know, everybody's got that friend who
listens to a ton of podcasts,
and maybe they aren't aware of Leading Saints.
So would you mind taking the link of
this episode or another episode of Leading Saints
and just texting it to that friend? You
know who you I'm talking about, the friend
who always listens to podcasts and is always
telling you about different podcasts. Well, it's your
turn to tell that friend about Leading Saints.
So share it. We'd also love to hear
from you. If you have any perspective or
thought on this episode, you can go to
leadingsaints.org
and actually leave a comment on the, episode
page, or reach out to us at leading
saints dot org slash contact. And remember, to
get on the email newsletter list, simply go
to leadingsaints.org/fourteen.
It came as a result of the position
of leadership which was imposed upon us
by the God of heaven who brought
forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus
Christ.
And when the declaration
was made concerning the own and only true
and living Church upon the face of the
earth,
We were immediately put in a position of
loneliness,
the loneliness of leadership
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,
and to which we must face up with
boldness and courage
and ability.