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So my name is Kurt Frankem and I
am the founder and executive director of Leading
Saints and, obviously, the host of the Leading
Saints podcast. Now I started Leading Saints back
in 02/2010. It was just a hobby blog
and it grew from there. By the time,
02/2014
came around, we started the podcast and that's
really when it got some,
traction and took off, 02/2016.
We became a five zero one c three
nonprofit organization, and we've been growing ever since.
And now I get the opportunity
of interviewing and talking with remarkable people all
over the world. Now this is a segment
we do on the Leading Saints podcast called
How I Lead, and we reach out to
everyday leaders. They're not experts, gurus, authors,
PhDs. They're just everyday leaders who've been asked
to serve in a specific leadership calling, and
we simply ask them, how is it that
you lead? And they go through some remarkable
principles that should be in a book, that
should be behind a PhD.
They're usually that good, and, we just talk
about, sharing what the other guy is doing.
And I remember being a leader just simply
wanting to know, k. I know what I'm
trying to do, but what's the other guy
guy doing? What's working for him? And so
that's why every Wednesday or so, we publish
these how I lead segments
to share.
Alright. You're in for a treat on this
How I Lead interview. We talk with John
Holdaway, who is the president of the Seoul,
Korea Military
District.
And, boy, with that comes all sorts of
unique dynamics
and turnover and people moving and coming and,
you know, people serving as branch president for
six weeks and or shorter. Right? And there's
so much to learn here. And John just
himself with military background, and
he
he has so many phenomenal leadership principles. Big
shout out to Cash Hills
who, simply simply sent us an email and
said, hey. You had a talk with John.
I know he's on the other side of
the globe, but let's make it happen. And
so it was 7AM for him. It was
3PM for me, and we got it recorded
and, through the miracles of the Internet and
technology. So a few things to listen in
here. Just the concept of revelation
and making revelation a priority in your leadership
journey. I think it's just it feels so
elementary at times, but it's it's crucial. Sometimes
we forget about it in the hustle and
bustle.
His his motto to do something as a
leader, sometimes we can just get in the
rut of meetings, but, the way that he
inspires
individuals,
other leaders that he presides over to do
something is awesome. And then just ministering to
individual branch presidents, elders, corps presidents, relief study
presidents, making sure that they're okay. You know,
you have to make sure that,
sometimes people just lose themselves in this calling,
not not in a good way to find
themselves, but to lose themselves. And and it
really,
creates some some tension and some mental health
concerns. And so just the way that he
is always
mindful of of how to you know, the
the leaders that he is ministering to, I
think is powerful, especially when we talk about
these these district level level or these stake
level callings, is always be mindful of just
how the leaders are are doing are really
doing. Because if you ask them straight up
without digging further, they're just gonna say, oh,
I'm fine. No. Don't worry about me. We're
we'll handle it. We'll figure it out. Right?
But we gotta take care of our leaders.
Right? So there's so many more principles. We
go an hour. I was shooting for thirty
minutes, but, you know, there's no rules here
on leading safe. I'll go an hour if
I wanna go an hour, and you will
appreciate it. So here's my interview with John
Holdaway,
the president of the Seoul Korea Military District.
Alright. It's the afternoon for me, but it's
the wee hours of the morning in Seoul,
Korea. I'm talking with John Holdaway. How are
you? Doing great. You know, getting up early
is okay. I think, this is it's a
wonderful nightmare.
That's great. Now,
you're you're originally from Pleasant Grove, Utah. So
how how does a Pleasant Grove, Utah kid
end up in Seoul, Korea?
I have no idea. It's, it's been a
long trail that's involved Germany and Washington, DC,
and I've been trying now since 1998
to get back to Utah.
The The Lord just keeps throwing me further
and further away and said you need more
to learn. So,
yeah. Yeah. Here I am. So is it
a a military thing that takes you there
or a business? Or Yeah. I am a
a DOD civil actually, department of the army
civilian here in, Korea with US Forces Korea.
And so I I support, the the military
operations here.
Nice.
Awesome. Is but you're you said you're a
a a civilian, like a contractor type thing?
So you're not did did you ever do
time in the military? Or Yeah. So I
did eight years active duty military and, was
an army JAG officer. I originally actually started
with the Utah Army National Guard there in
Provo,
as an intelligence
specialist,
learning how to interrogate people and ask hard
questions. And so that made a a natural
fit to being a lawyer, and so I
spent eight years as a JAG officer and
finished up in Germany. And we were gonna
have our our family in Germany. It was
a wonderful experience.
And then,
spent a little bit of time in private
practice in Los Angeles, and then, realized I
wasn't very good at that. And so came
back into government service as a civilian,
and spent,
about fourteen years in Washington DC.
I originally served my mission here in Korea.
I met my wife here. She's from Los
Angeles. I'm from Utah County. We met in
Korea as missionaries, came back, dated, and and,
but our love is here in Korea. So
when this job I have I mean, now
opened up,
it was, a wonderful opportunity to come back
and and be here.
So I bet you're just having a, like,
a wonderful time with speaking Korean and and
reminiscing about your mission. And What's great is
is that, we met, their Seoul temple up
is up in Seoul, and, there's a church
building next to it, the Sinchon Ward.
And, we were both besides her district leader
in that ward.
And,
it was so we every time we go
to the temple, we had to kinda pinch
ourselves.
We may have gone up to the room,
which used to be our district meeting room.
We may have sneaked a kiss or two
now that we're married.
Nice. Yeah. But, we so we it's just
it's just wonderful to be back here after
thirty some odd years.
Kinda wander the same streets we used to
wander. Yeah. So how long have you been
there on this stint? Five years. Just the
my fifth anniversary.
And is there, do you know how long
you should be there, or is it just
Well, yeah. You've read the news. I think
for civilian employees in the federal government is
a little, a little shaky right now. Yeah.
You never know. But,
I I've always taken I you know, I'm
I I,
I love people who can plan their careers
out and say, this is what I wanna
do, and they go get it, and they
really plan their lives. I've never been that
way. I've I've I've tried to do that
and it's never worked out right. And so
at some point, I learned to, like, let
let literally, it's a revelatory process. Let the
lord lead you where you want to go
when you find that he'll put you in
places and to do things. And and then
when the next it's time to do the
next thing, you'll know when it's time to
move on and go do the next thing.
And if you're if you really are faithful
to that, let them already lead you. Your
life can be an adventure. You find yourself
in Korea, not I if you don't mind,
I tell a story about how we ended
up here. So
I was working as a civilian,
attorney at the Defense Intelligence Agency in DC.
Most of my career has been in the
intelligence field. And, I was pretty good at
what I did and and really enjoyed it
and was tracking to become the senior executive.
And my boss had created a position for
me in the agency, but you have to
apply for the job they want you to
do. So he says go online and apply
for this job. You'll be you're the candidate
for it. We really want you to to
take a shot at this.
I'm on the website that has all the
federal jobs, and I'm scrolling through it. And
right above, the job I was supposed to
apply for was this job in Korea called
the special adviser to the judge advocate, senior
civilian attorney.
It it you get you're in the thick
of everything here, Korean and United States relations
with Korea. And I thought, well, I don't
really know how how to do that job,
but I'll give it a shot. Come to
find out the the decision authority, the senior
attorney here, was an old friend from my
master's program. We were,
classmates at National Defense University.
And, when he saw my resume come across
the, his desk, he says that's the guy
I wanna hire right there. And here we
are. And it's interesting that, yeah, I've done
great work with with, with the military here
in Korea and involved in some wonderful things
and,
very, very high level things. But the opportunity
to come here and be a district president,
that's really the exciting part about being here.
Get to do some really good work here.
Yeah. So, yeah, you're currently serving as the
district president. What what's the story behind being
called to that?
Well, so,
middle of COVID and the previous district president,
a wonderful district president,
because of COVID and these issues, he couldn't
come back and and so they needed a
new district president and and the,
area presidency
by Zoom. And we we we embrace technology
here. So because the district area presidency couldn't
get here,
we had had to do all the interviews
for district president by Zoom. And so I
interviewed and, elder James Rasman of the '70,
felt it I guess, felt inspired
to call me and,
here we are. So and it's been a
it's been a great ride.
That's great. Now if I understand right from
what, I think one of your is is
Cash one of your counselors that recommended you?
Yeah. Cash Hill is one of my counselors.
Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Trouble.
Yeah. You know, he mentioned that, because I
think, typically, when you're a you're a district
president, you report to the mission president in
the area, but you you report to Area
70. Is that right? Or the Yeah. Yeah.
Area presidency? We are unique. There's only two
of us that I'm aware of in the
church where,
we're not a stake or a district, but
because of the way because of our our
mission and who we support and serve
and and the geography we sit in, we
don't answer to a mission presence. So,
we have I have stake by Keyes, our
stake
president keys for the most part. I'm not
the senior high priest. I don't have a
patriarch.
But every other respect, we operate as a
stake.
And,
at the time was, president Ballard had,
given special dispensation to my district and then
my counterpart in Okinawa, the Okinawa military district,
to function as a state president. So I
I call missionaries.
I we do, you know,
alive and down in temple records. We do
all the things that a state president does,
and have those keys, those special keys.
Just there's a few things we just are
we don't have to find because we're so
transient. People are moving so people are still
moving around so much in and out that
the kind of things that we don't have,
we really don't need because
we're just so fluid and and, everything just
moves so quick. So, yeah, when I got
called, my my dad says, well, you're not
quite a steak,
but you kinda look like a steak. He
says, I'm gonna call you a Salisbury steak.
Not quite a steak, but close enough. Yeah.
So,
so so we've been operating under those keys.
And and so because of that, we cover
the entire Peninsula Of Korea
from the DMZ
down to the the Southern Coast.
In fact, I I joke we have a
branch that borders the DMZ, and I joke
that branch president. Well, technically,
we cover all the way up to China
through up to North Korea. So if there
were any,
English speaking members of the church in North
Korea, we would have,
responsibility to minister to them as well.
And so,
so we really do cover the entire peninsula.
But from the EOC down to the down
to the the Southern Coast, there's every three
missions. So I work with three different mission
presidents,
and,
we have six branches. We have a serviceman's
group,
that cover all the way from the North
Of Seoul all the way down to to
Busan.
And, it's so it it's a challenge. It's
a logistical challenge to to oversee all that.
It's huge. It's not like a, you know,
a Utah County state where the state president
can walk
every reward in the in in the state.
It's a little bit different of a challenge
over here. Nice. Well, just for clickbait, I'm
gonna, like, title this episode the the district
president in North Korea and see he'll be
like, what? There's
The president may not like that, but yeah.
Yeah. Exactly. So so yeah. So as far
as priesthood lines of authority, I I I
answered directly to my my file leader is
elder John a McCune, the president of the
North Area agent North Area president presidency.
I've got a wonderful,
Area 70, elder Darwin Halverson, who's a church
employee in Japan,
who who who oversees me, gives me correction
and guidance when I need it.
My coordinating council is not in Korea. My
coordinating council is a special group. That's myself,
president Francis, the Okinawa military district president. And
then with the Guam and Micronesia
district and state presidents, which is just fascinating
to see that how the church is administered
in the islands,
and the challenges they have. And you really
are we get appreciative for the challenges that
we have here because it's nothing like the
challenge we have down there. We may not
have electricity or water or, you know, it's
just a different different, way of living life
down there. So it's it's great to to
to,
to associate with these brethren that are that
are leading the church in their areas and
see how they do things. Yeah. So this
is a a military district so that does
that
assumption come that all your units are are
English speaking? Yes. So so,
you know, the history of of the military
in Korea begins in in
'24, really nineteen fifty to fifty three during
the Korean War.
And with that, like anywhere else in the
world, with with military, you hit the church.
And so a lot of great faithful brother
had come over here during the war and
and the gospel seed started being planted. But
ever since that that mid fifties, we've had
a a district here that supports the the
large military presence.
That presence has dropped off over the last
twenty years or so, but we have, with
the rise of the Korean economy, a great
expat community. And so
we are,
we serve we serve and minister to,
basically, the way the area of presence, he
puts it, all non Korean speaking members of
the church. We really have a stewardship for
them
and and support and sustain them. So,
it's it's
I would say, you know, again, I I
haven't traveled a lot around the church, but
I would dare say we're probably one of
the most diverse
stakes or districts of the church.
We have our military members from The United
States. We have a United Nations command here,
so we'll have officers and members of the
church from
Australia, Canada,
United Kingdom, and all around the world to
come here. We have Korea has really,
reached out to
bring it in and and and,
have immigration immigrate into the country, foreign workers.
So we have a lot of Filipino saints
here who work in various factories.
We have, again, our our business folks up
in Seoul. We have English teachers, these young
folks that come to teach English, and they're
coming from Philippines and Canada and United States.
One of our branch presidents is from Mexico.
His predecessor is from Australia.
And then we have this really unique opportunity,
when
Liberia and West Africa had a civil war,
the international community was asked to take in
refugees from Liberia.
And Korea, this is something they really don't
do. It's a monoculture here that's really
the world to them is is,
it's been interesting as they they they increase
their presence on the world stage. And part
of that was is they accepted a handful
of Liberian refugees, and of those,
about 20 of them are members of the
church. And so we support and sustain these
African refugees from Liberia who have just
horrific stories about what happened,
and and, just the trauma they went through.
But it's really our blessing to be able
to to support and and help them. So
we really have this interesting, weird diversity
of members who have different issues, different challenges,
different backgrounds they come from, and it just
it it it enriches the our our service
here.
Yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome.
And so do you I I mean, do
you interact with the the traditional
Korean steaks Korean speaking steaks very much? Is
or is it pretty pretty separated as far
as, you know, interacting with them? We we
try. We try really hard. It it's,
is is I try to teach our folks
on on our side, not that there are
fences, but on ours from where we sit,
is we're yes. We're yes here. And we
we,
especially Americans, can tend to be a little
overwhelming.
And so,
so we have to remember we're guests here.
This is their
country, and and so we really wanna support
and sustain the members here.
But we do as much as we can.
I have great relationships with the temple presidency
because we're up there at the temple all
the time.
One of the stake presidents in Seoul is
actually a former mission companion of mine. Oh,
wow. And so,
and, I always joke with him because I
think of, you know, my wife was a
missionary there as well, and I I always
joke that I think he had a crush
on my my wife.
So,
and, the other area seventies here in Korea
have a wonderful relationship with them.
Our young single adults, we really are trying
hard to integrate our young single adults with
the Korean young single adults. So we have
these touch points
with the Korean states. They're they're just really
wonderful. When we have areas, authorities, general officers
of the church come, we all gather together
and and and get to that training together.
So, yeah, it's it's we we have a
small presence, but they're doing their thing. We're
doing ours, and we just try to support
each other as much as we can. Yeah.
That's awesome. That's great.
And then,
Cash also mentioned that your
there's the transient nature
of your district that, you've not had a
branch president stay longer than nine months. So
you're constantly,
changing some of those the the those callings
that are typically seen as very long term
callings. Right? What's
how how does that work, and what have
you learned just from managing a transient,
district? So, yeah, we we don't talk in
the church. We don't use the phrase talent
management. We don't we don't talk about that
very well. Right. I there's there's reasons for
that. I I I Yeah. There are reasons
for that. But but in a district where
we have people moving in and out so
quickly,
talent management, succession planning, those kind of principles
really become important because we have to develop
the next generation who's gonna be probably next
month. And so,
we really do an effort,
reach out to our young single adults and,
like, what what you know, we we haven't
have these leadership columns where we can train
them because they may need to step up
as people move out.
And so, it it becomes a challenge. Right?
Like, in the military, the summer, we have
the summer cycle
where,
it's called PCS, permanent change of station. I'll
use all these military terms on it. So
we get this PCS season, and we have
people just moving in and out, in and
out, in and out. And so right now,
it's February going into March,
and,
I'm, right now have up on my computer
what I call my projected loss list.
Of all the callings, I'm I'm losing five
members of my high council,
my executive secretary. I'm losing two branch presidents,
couple of elders quorum presidents, counselors, and all
of those organizations.
I've got one branch that the branch president,
the elders quorum president, and all the counselors
are going away. So so you have to
really think in advance. And then the other
key is and this is kinda like my
biggest leadership thing that I I I I
I just caught and learned that this is
so important, is you have to be revelatory.
My wife taught me this when we first
moved here. When we first moved here, we
moved in our branch. She was called as
the elite society president. She'd been here two
weeks, and she's the elite society president.
And COVID hit and we were in the
middle of this this summer cycle
and,
she learned very quickly. She had to figure
out how to how to how to fellowship
and administer to the sisters in her branch.
And the principle she learned was called love
quickly.
You just have to you don't have time
to be in a ward for five years,
ten years, and learn to get to know
people over time. You have to get to
know people very quickly.
And so,
on Zoom, she would sponsor these Zoom sort
of speed dating,
events with the sisters in her branch
where you get up and people kind of
move in rooms with each other and get
to know each other, and you just have
to move quickly.
And because of that as a leader,
when you're looking at callings,
you have to
get that calling completed very, very quickly. You
can't sit,
and wait for,
you know, something to come. You know, you
you have to go out and tell the
lord, I need revelation now, and and he
does it. I have great experiences
here.
One time, we had a branch president,
wonderful branch president. He was doing an amazing
job. He had very young children. In fact,
I knew when I extended the call to
him, this would be a challenge for his
family. But I knew he had the faith
and his wife had the faith to do
this. And they were doing great,
and the family was doing great, but then
she, had a difficult pregnancy and their baby
was born early and ended up in NICU
and and I could see the stress. But
I I went to him and I said,
no. This is how not to do it.
I said, said, you tell me when it's
time for you to be tell me when
when you need to ring the bell and
and you need to be released. That that
was the wrong answer. I was not taking
care of my branch president. Well, I should've
released him on the spot because he needed
to take care of his number one priority,
which was his family.
Yeah. But he he did. He's not not
present. I got it. I'm good. We'll we'll
work through this.
And then a couple months later,
I'm in the temple
and,
I literally was walking down the hallway
and I about fell over. The the the
impression
was so strong,
release
president Madsen
now
and then call
this other brother to be the branch president.
And I thought,
wow. This is just amazing. Like, literally and
so I walked out of the temple that
day, called my counselors.
We we had a, we, you know in
our next presidency meeting, we sat down and
prayed and, boy, we received that revelation very
quickly, and we moved out within a week.
As soon as the as soon as the
air presidency gave us the the heads up,
to to to make the change and gave
us the authority to do that, we moved
out very, very quickly. And so,
you have to be
constantly
revelatory and have faith that when you receive
that prompting,
you move out. Another another great example is,
I was a counselor to the previous district
president.
And so as I council, one of the
things he really wanted was a a a
social media specialist for the district.
And, and so okay. So we put it
on our tracker. This is where we're tracking.
We need to find somebody. And so he
says, okay. As you go out and visit
the branch the the the different branches, be
prayerful and let let's let's kinda find somebody
to fill out.
Month months went by, we just could never
find that person. If I'm in on the
district president, hey. This is a priority. I
agree. We need to have a social media
specialist.
And we prayed and kept thinking about it
and kept thinking about names. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing.
Eighteen months later, I'm walking into a branch
and there's this new brother and his family,
navy,
navy officer.
And, and I introduced myself to him and
I I felt inspired to ask him, what's
your experience with social media? He says, oh,
I was the social media specialist in the
world I just
came from. And,
I almost
called him on the spot. I thought, no.
It's a process. We'll do the process.
And, so we went through the process very
quickly and, yeah, he was called as our
social media specialist. The lord
provided the individual that we needed when we
needed it, and we just had to be
ready to receive that revelation
to know this is the individual you need
to call.
That is so key to how we do
leadership in the church. Yeah.
And with that process of being revelatory and
it sort of being in that state of
mind, is there anything else that comes to
mind if you were to coach or mentor
somebody who's sort of beginning to understand,
you know, or beginning to experience these leadership
experiences. Is there anything else comes to mind
of how to effectively do that?
I think, yeah, I think part of it
is is is,
you have to have faith
that it's gonna work. So revelation
is tied to faith. The
the the brother have always taught that, first
of all, is that still small? But if
if if if you have to really listen.
And then when you feel that that that
first inkling
of, hey. Maybe this is the direction to
go, You can't discount it. I I remember
stories that president Monge used to tell about,
you know, going and doing ministering to people.
And and when he get that prompting, it
could be a small prompting. He moved. He
executed.
And that's that where you have to move
and execute. Now have we been successful? We
we feel we received
a prompting to to take it for a
particular direction, go to a particular direction, extend
particular calling. Has that always worked out? No.
It hasn't.
Yeah. I don't know the mind and the
will of the Lord. I remember we extended
a call to a brother to serve on
the high council. We thought this is perfect.
This would be good for him, good for
us. He had some some special skills he
needs. And it just happened to be that
president Hill was in the room with me
when I extended the calling.
And,
shortly in extending that calling, it was pretty
clear
we should not be extending him this calling.
He had some other things
to to to to some other priorities in
his life that he needed to focus on.
And afterwards, I kinda had a little soul
struggle about, well, wait a minute. We felt
so comfortable. We prayed about this. We felt
this is the right way to go. And
so I don't know the reason why. I
can only surmise that maybe it's because he
just needed to know that he was
we loved him and that we considered him
worthy and and capable of his calling, but
it's just not the right time. But it
helps build his confidence and to help solve
the problems he had to know that, yeah,
I could have had this call, but I
I can't right now.
Who knows? But you have to go with
faith that that that that that that the
lord has a plan for for us and
for the members that we work with, that
whatever decision we make is the right answer.
Actually, it's it's not always gonna work.
But but let let the world react. Another
great example was when I was a state
government's president,
we had, planned this huge,
youth, weekend. We're gonna be renting buses and
we're gonna go up to New York. This
is where I was in Annapolis. And we
were gonna go up to New York City
and we're gonna go to the Statue Of
Liberty and do family history genealogy stuff, genealogy
thing.
And the night before we were supposed to
go and move 200 youth to some New
York City, the bus comp company canceled on
us. And Oh, wow.
It it was ugly. It might I I
switched from state government's president mode, lawyer mode,
and my kids still talk about me standing
in the parking lot of the church yelling
at the bus company in my lawyer voice,
Freddie.
Yep.
Yep. Sure. And, of course, the area,
area 70 says, well, we'll take a much
more,
you know, basically Christ like attitude for dollars.
Good lesson, Warner.
But, the next morning, we show up at
five in the morning. We're supposed to leave.
We have 200 youth, and we were supposed
to do something with them. We planned all
this. What do we do? And and we
as leaders, not with the state president and
and young men and women leaders, what do
we do? And we threw together a youth
conference
in ten minutes.
And, of course, the youth were disappointed, but
we we, you know, sister so and so
said I can do this, and brother so
and so I can do this. We did
a a scavenger hunt through the Downtown Annapolis
area,
just to get the kids out of the
building, and we ended by about noon or
01:00. We ordered some food in and and
and and while it was stressful for the
leaders and especially the poor sister that had
organized the whole thing, if everything had fallen
out, you know, it would have been pulled
out from under her. She felt like she
failed,
but she didn't. It the the youth walked
away with a massive spiritual experience. The the
testimony meeting afterwards
that were born by those youth that said,
oh, we can do hard things.
We can adapt and overcome
challenges. And that became then that they're going
from family history to
adapting
and overcoming challenges.
And and by example, showing that we could
do this youth conference, that it really touched
the lives of those youth.
So, you know, you get this you see
you see the Lord is taking you down
this path, and he'll go, no. No. No.
No. No. No. No. No. We're gonna go
this direction instead. Now walk with me. And
it's amazing what sort of experiences you can
have.
Yeah. For sure. And, you know, speaking more
about just that, revelation
and that process of receiving revelation, do you
feel like because, naturally, with the Transient District,
do you have certain constraints that are just
they're inconvenient, but they are what they are.
Right? Yeah. Someone gets transferred, you needed to,
you know, figure something out really quickly or
this youth conference example. Mhmm. Do you kinda
feel like sometimes
you know, I I guess, like, where I'm
good, you know, some I worry some leaders
walk around waiting for that temple experience like
you described that where revelation
over. And I've had similar experiences.
But do you feel like sometimes you just
gotta make the call?
Yeah. No. That's that's exactly right. Sometimes you
gotta make the call.
And you and that's why that's why revelation
is tied to faith is is that but
I will tell you in every instance where
we have needed to make a quick decision,
we've had taken it to the wall. We
don't just you know, we're not just making
off the cuff decisions. Hopefully, we're not.
And,
and so we do use pay time,
and you you you seek the will of
the lord. And and and, you know, every
time I've done that, I have felt the
confirming spirit that this is the right thing
to do. So you just have to do
it. You have to do it in time
and you have to give the Lord space
to talk to you. He will respond to
you or you'll get that super thought. You're
like, okay. Maybe we just need to wait.
It's rare, but from time to time, we've
just said, yeah. We'd like to move now,
but we just can't. And so,
you have to do that. That's revelatory as
well.
But,
yeah. The other challenge with this is that,
because a lot of the the you know,
again, we we kinda focus on calling, that's
kind of the big challenge,
is that most of the callings we deal
with are keyholder callings.
And because
it's two hours either direction, three, or train
ride, or yeah. You have to schedule things
out. So you have to think long term
planning
and build in space. That's why, like, I've
got my June
callings already mapped out because it it can
be key the, the question I always ask
my executive secretary is, where do the keys
need to be this weekend?
Where do I need to be to be
able to execute it and and exercise my
keys to bless or to do whatever it
is I need to be doing? And then
that's again, that's another revelatory process. It's just
to say, where do I need to be?
And,
and so, you know, I I there's an
elder corps president we need to call here
soon. And so,
he's a military soldier, and so he's off
in the field. And so we're trying to
time it when he gets back out of
the field. I can meet with him on
Zoom to access issue the call.
And then when do I have a weekend
that I can go up? There's about two
hour drive north of here to go then
and set him apart. And then he'll be
here for for four more months, and then
he's gone.
Just another reason we need to move quickly
so he has the keys to to
to to exercise in his column just for
that short period of time.
Yeah. Wow. That's fantastic. That's fantastic.
Is there anything to, like, with these, like,
you know, four months or whatever, the short
period of time, like,
a lot of these callings you know, I'm
serving as an eligible president right now, and,
you know, I think it's been six, seven,
eight months now where I'm, like, I'm still
kind of unfolding my vision. Right? Yeah. Is
there anything to, like,
just
getting finding momentum? Because I I hate the
feeling of that person has to feel like
they have to start from square one every
every time a new person's called. Any any
advice come to mind? Well, that's a that's
a loaded question. Momentum's hard. Yeah. Momentum is
really hard, especially where we do so much
turnover.
That so that's why we pick up some
some,
some principles from from from the world about,
you know, mark marketing yourself. What I'm really
into mission statements and vision statements.
So at least you can put a marker
on the wall to say, this is kinda
where we think we need to go. And
so we base it in,
you know, we start with the with the
work of salvation and exaltation. And so,
when I was a counselor,
in the district presidency, the district president wanted
a mission statement. So drafted a great mission
statement, still our mission statement today, and it
really talks about, you know, helping members along
the covenant path,
and helping them build a relationship with their
heavenly father and their spirit Jesus Christ.
And then from there, we went with that's
that's kind of the direction we wanna go.
And then we look at, okay, then how
do we do that within the work of
salvation and exaltation work? Are we focusing on
our youth,
the rising generation,
missionary work, temple work, you know, inspiring and
bringing joy to the saints and then helping
those who have needs? We focus on those
five areas. And then
from there, it's like, what are we what
are then the things we're doing? How are
we implementing that? Well, we have the gathering
place. We have, you know, YSA programs. Well,
you know, make sure we have youth camps.
All the different programmatic
aspects to support
back to that vision of of people on
the covenant path. And if if you keep
that organized in your mind,
then that will help help you okay. Am
I doing something that fits in that framework?
If not, then we're not gonna do that.
We're gonna strip that away with the time.
And so I think if you keep that
framework in your mind as a are we
moving forward? Is the covenant path is such
a great
metaphor. It's such a great image,
because it's you feel like, okay. Are we
moving
forward? As an elders quorum president, I I
teach branch presidents and elders quorum presidents is
we're always asking what's next,
in the lives of the member. It could
be enhancement. It could be going to the
temple, do renewing temple recommends or maybe they
haven't had a temple recommend in a while.
It could be a call in. It could
be just maybe they need to speak in
church or teach a lesson.
What is next in the life of that
individual, that one?
And so that's, I think, the high how
you build momentum. It's just that slow incremental
steps in the lives of individuals.
Yeah. No. I love that. Really helpful.
Speak to me about the principles as far
as how you go about following the profit
and kind of aligning
your your mission statement or your efforts with
with the profit.
Yeah. I I think it's and, again, I've
learned this over time. I I I don't
have any magic to do this, but but,
really, in the last couple of months, it's
really come clear to me that that we
need to have all of our planning and
discussions focused on
these priorities. So so, for example,
when we do our district presence meeting, we
have a slide chart that kinda guide us
through our agenda. And I'm changing all that
up so that every so we're gonna have
we call it the military court, and we'll
have, like, four different boxes on the slide.
Well, we're gonna have five boxes on the
slide, and those five boxes are gonna be
the rising generation,
missionary work, temple work,
welfare,
and and increasing joy in the in our
in the saints. And and everything we do,
we talk about it. It's gonna have to
fit in one of those things because it's
all about those priorities.
It's all about teaching how to make covenants.
It's all about,
focusing on
helping members down that path individually. So that
that path is a long spread out thing.
So you have to focus
on the the those priorities
so that we're all moving together,
at at the same pace. We're moving at
the pace that the Lord will have us
go. I think as long as we focus
on those, that work of salvation exaltation, the
the the brethren have. You go to if
you go to the leadership training from the
last couple of general conferences,
it's all focused on on those core principles,
on focusing on those simple basics
of where are we, where we headed to,
in those different five areas
of the church.
Yeah. And I imagine you really can customize
the needs of your area within those Yeah.
Those five areas. Right? Yeah. And every branch
I'll tell you, every one of our branches
has a different is a different culture. They
all have you think, well, we're all too
much of military people, but I've got one
branch. It's all mostly air force people, and
and they've got challenges and things that are
going on and they're kind of isolated and
they do their thing. I've got sole English
branch where I have very few military people,
and it's English teachers and and and foreign
workers and and they have a challenge. And
so as as we each branch, as we
focus on the one and the uniqueness of
the one within those branch,
these these different cultures arise and every branch
president, every elders horn president, leaf side president
has these wonderful challenges to figure out how
to implement
these principles in their branches. And the idea
of keeping it very,
very focused at a very high level allows
then you to to then delve into the
one
deeply with that one because how how the
gospel applies to the one might be a
little different how the gospel needs of of
the one Mexican.
And so you you give them that flexibility
to to do the one. I've been impressed
as I've gone to branch conferences. We do
branch conferences. I
we we have an hour long branch council,
and I'll take half an hour. If they
run me a half an hour, branch council,
I wanna see how you guys function.
Uh-huh. And I tell you that water is
getting the end of the row. I'm impressed
by these these leaders
because
it's about the one. It's like, okay. We'll
talk about calendar, blah blah blah blah blah,
and that's all done. And it's like, okay.
Sister so and so, she has this challenge.
What do we have to do? How can
we help them out? And it's like, well,
the primary can help out here. And we
decided, of course, is helping out over here.
Maybe the the elders form. And you see
and, of course, they ask the question, what's
next for this individual?
What do we need to do to help
them along the path? And and it's it's
it's a miracle to watch a branch council
just
move and and and and and and counsel
together
and and just to watch that magic of
of seeing lives change because of the efforts
of of a of a functioning
absolutely. Yeah. You can't
you you just can't you can't do that
anywhere else in the world except for these
very sacred spaces.
Yeah. For sure. So and do you find
yourself that you're kind of after that
that thirty minutes, you're
maybe giving feedback, coaching on how this was
done or that was done? Or Sometimes. I
I, earlier on, we had a branch that
was the branch council was struggling,
and there was some dysfunction on the branch
council.
And so we would we would take time
to address that. I think we've gotten through
that, and we and and we've improved our
training and our ability to minister to key
leaders in the branches.
And that helps out. So now when I
do my thirty minutes, we're talking about these
principles. I have I take we talk about
the the district mission. We talk about the
priorities, the prophetic priorities, and we talk about
the things we're gonna do to implement them.
The final piece, so I I want that
we we talk about and I I got
this,
so my my mother's a Swiss immigrant. Her
family immigrated from Switzerland in the fifties. Her
uncle was elder Hansby Ringer of the '70.
He stayed
and served the church there for many, many
years. And so she was saying, hey. Go
into the gospel library, into the
church history section, and there's this great area
called gospel story that they get where they
break down every country, and you can see
the lives of the saints in each country.
It's amazing. Every member should go there and
see where were their families from to to
go see that. She says, you gotta go
to the Switzerland section and see about your
families all sitting in there, about stories. And
so I'm reading this story, this this relief
society president. She's a state police society president,
and she's, doesn't know what to do with
her calling. She feels like, how do you
do this? And then state president Ringer taught
her this principle. He says, do something.
He says,
if it's wrong, you'll learn from that. If
it's right, you'll rejoice in it. He says,
never do nothing.
Do something.
And so
that statement has hit me like a ton
of bricks. That is now one of that
goes now into this overarching way we look
at the world. And the key for all
of you is is we don't have time.
Do
something.
And guess what? If you I've I've made
many at my leadership, various colleagues in the
church, I've done some dumb things. I says,
but I've learned from that. You've learned from
that. The lord teaches you. You look at
we're gonna do this in doctor covenants this
year where you see, you know, Joseph make
mistakes and you see Martin Harris, and we're
just going this right now with section 19,
is that the Lord gives leaders space
to make mistakes and to learn from them.
But if you're doing nothing,
then nothing is gonna happen. You must do
something. And so I think that's that, you
just gotta be in there. Just do something.
It's it might be five minutes a week
or something.
There might be something major where you're giving
a lot of time. Just do something, and,
you'll find that the Lord will walk you
through it, and and you'll have a great
experience.
Yeah. I love that, especially in a,
faith tradition with with a lot of meetings
at times. Right? Sometimes it feels like we're
doing something by counseling and talking. Of course,
that's all important, like, you've already articulated. But
sometimes it's like, alright. Well, we gotta come
to a decision. We gotta what are we
doing this week? You know, what how are
we gonna what's the next step type of
Yeah. Approach. Right? Yeah. No. I'll I'll I
will I will caveat my do something, like,
do something doesn't mean more meetings. And so
Right. Exactly.
I I, this is this is something that
I really
it it's just a me thing.
I I hate
presiding in a meeting where I feel like
we've just spun our wheels and I've not
given these leaders something. You know? Now now
here's how we do it here. Right? You
you were probably in a state
where the state president has a high council
meeting. Everybody shows up because they gotta get
their white shirt and tie, they got it
dressed, and, like, at seven in the morning
on a Sunday, they gotta go show up
somewhere.
We don't do that. We we do everything
on Zoom. I think, it's rare that my
district presidency will be in the room at
the same time. I've never been in the
room with the high council.
But two, three times a year, we'll get
the whole district council together,
because I just gotta have FaceTime with everybody.
We just have to do that for that
muscle memory. But it's rare that we do
that.
So,
so but even then, if they're just walking
out of their bedroom throwing on a white
shirt and their pajama bottoms on, I still
owe people a quality meeting
where they have to walk away or we've
done something. And so to me, that is
just so critical as a leader is if
you if you if you don't give people
something to walk away from and and to
inspire them and teach them, they don't have
the
meeting.
Yeah. We we can make decisions. We have
a chat room where if there's a decision
we need to make, we'll just talk about
it in the chat room, and we'll receive
inspiration in the chat room. I don't need
to have the meeting just to to figure
something out. So,
and I've got a great member of the
high council. He's a senior army leader, and
he's my he's my sounding board. He's my
feedback loop. And after every every district council
or high council, I look at him and
go, how do we do? And so Yeah.
Yeah. And, I you know, if he says,
hey. Look. You know? It kind of you
know? I get the feedback that, hey. That
was kind of a waste of time, and
we shift and we adjust and we learn
from that because I don't wanna waste people's
time. We just don't have that time to
do that.
Yeah. Yeah. And I I love that just
how you frame it in the context of
of presiding, which we use that word so
much in our in our faith,
you know, in meetings and things. And, you
know, I've been that stake presidency member where
it's like, I just showed up here. I
mean, I'm presiding, I guess, but I don't
feel like I'm doing anything. But to really
reframe that, like, no. You like, you you
own the meeting now. So this is up
to you to make sure quality is happening
here. And if there's a better way or,
you know, less of a burden for those
participating, well, then maybe you should consider that.
Right? I mean, we could still
involve the spirit and have revelation and move
move the work forward. Now now let me
tell you a a a a thing that
we've implemented here. I learned this from a
great bishop back at Fort Meade, Maryland. He
was a he's a army officer, and he
ran his bishopric like an army unit. And
in a
and, oh, no. It was good. It was
really good. And he taught me some In
a good way. Yes.
Yeah. So so in in a military unit,
let's say it's a brigade, you got an
army colonel, and he's got a staff meeting.
He doesn't run the staff. He presides at
the staff meeting. He doesn't run the staff
meeting. He has an executive officer
who walks people through and he looks at
everything and says, hey. What are you doing?
What are you doing? You know, he walked
through all the reports. The executive, the number
two
of the deputy commander runs the meeting so
that then that colonel, the boss,
can watch.
He can see, he can watch the dynamics,
and he can get
as much as army colonels receive revelation, he
can get that idea that he can let
the let the ideas flow so he can
lead. He's not spending his time on running
the meeting.
So this bishop used to do that. His
first counselor would run all the meetings and
the bishop would just sit there and watch.
And then when he spoke, it was that
he what he brought to the table because
he had he'd sat there and had had
digested everything and he was happy with his
laboratory experiences.
So when I became district president, I said,
we're gonna implement we're gonna do that.
So every meeting we run, one of my
counselors runs the meeting. The agenda is set
up by the executive secretary, and and that
gives me space as a leader
just to kinda watch. So that when I
have to say something or weigh in, now
it is, you know, I I'm now using
my keys rather than just spinning my wheels.
Yeah. That's fantastic. Well, if we need to
track down that bishop,
but and I love that just that, you
know and and Liz Wiseman, who I've interviewed
a few times, she's done a lot of
research,
just about, like, being an accidental diminisher and
running meetings. And and she talks a lot
about this where
a a leader can
lead out, you know, in a meeting, and
suddenly, it's sort of a vacuum in the
Yeah. You know, why don't you just make
the decision, and we'll just, you know, nod
our head and agree, and we'll move on.
But to really have that spirit of counsel
Yeah. To somehow,
you know, remove yourself from the meeting
while it unfolds and then reinsert yourself. Yeah.
That is critical.
Absolutely critical. I I I've told any any
presidency I've been in where I've been the
the the, you know, state young men's president
or a bishop or or now in this
calling, I've always told my counselors,
your job is to game up against me.
I want you two
to to work together, be a team
that counterbalances
me in any and and and and helps
me be a better president.
And I think and then I do the
same thing with the high council and and
the district council.
Your job is to help me,
you know,
help move me and and guide me. And,
of course, I'm just you know, I've got
the keys and and I'm presiding, but, you
know, you take whatever I'm supposed to do
and then it exponentially
grows by all these people that are kinda
helping this thing move along.
We had a wonderful district council just this
last Sunday, and we had a topic on
the table. I I I have to go
back in my notes and see what it
is, but but but it was just a
little issue we wanted to talk about. I
think it involved probably something with the youth
and and,
boy, people had opinions.
And it was great. And it was great
because then I just step back. I just
kept my mouth shut and watch people
kind of debate each other and have you
know, it was
it was wonderful. And I oh, I was
I was talking about an issue that involves
some people, and everybody had a a way
of, well, I can do this. I can
do this and this. I look at it
this way. I look at it this way.
And then I just stopped everybody. I said
stop.
I said,
watch what you're doing. This is a council.
Young women are giving input of what the
young women are thinking, and the release of
society is giving their input. And everybody's having
a voice, and it's wonderful.
This is how we should function as a
branch council. You, I enable you. You have
every authority to step in these meetings, and
you tell me what you think. If we're
just gonna sit around and,
you know, just listen to branch the district
president spout off, like,
I'll send you a video. I won't I
don't need it. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Meeting.
We have, we had a we we had
a challenge. We our leaders were starting we
have these slides and they put there what's
going on in their in their in their
stewardships.
And there's a military,
acronym called NSTR.
Nothing significant to report.
And, no leader wants to see that reported
back. I have nothing to report.
And so we said so so so that,
like, my counselors put out the words into
the district council. Don't don't you're not authorized
STR on there. In the spirit of do
something, put something in your heart. Since I
made a phone call or, you know, I
did this or whatever. Just that's part of
that spirit of do something. Like, there's you
know, you I know that there's things that
are significant to report. You may not think
they're significant,
but for somebody else on the council, it
could be significant. For me as as a
presiding authority, that could be significant to me.
So Yeah. Yeah. Speak up. Let us know
what you're doing. It this is these are
feedback loops for us as leaders in these
councils to help us to know how we
can do better. And and and great things
happen as we speak up in meetings. And
we as leaders
create the space, get get ourselves out of
the meeting, and create space for for those
people to speak up.
Yeah. That's great. That's great. And I think
a lot of us, you know, I it's
nice to be able to say to meetings
sometimes, like, oh, I have nothing to report
because you don't wanna, like, be a problem
or inter do some more problems. Right? Like
Yeah. Even I think of, like, the the
church and the tools app or something or
the you know, if there if you see
something broken in a building, you can you
can report it. And the way they frame
the button, it says create an issue. And
I, like, almost hesitate pushing that button. Like,
I don't wanna create an issue.
Like, I don't I I'll report a problem
or report something broke, but I don't wanna
create an issue. Right? So that's but to
to really push people past that, they're like,
no. Like, not not we don't need all
your problems, but, like, what do you have
to report? Good, bad, the ugly? Let's hear
it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's let's move the
work along forward. We we gotta do that.
We gotta do that council together and do
it together. So Yeah. Tell me about just
ministering to,
branch presidents, elders, quorum, relief study presidents. What
does that look like? Yeah. So it is,
I I think that that's really critical. We
had elder Cook out here last year. He
really he's just honed in for all of
the state presidents. Like, you've got to take
care of your bishops and branch presidents. It's
it's that is so when I look at,
you know, my ministering families,
I've got six branch presidents and their wives,
six elders, quorum presidents, their wives. I've got
a wonderful stake relief society, district police society
president. She's ministering to all the leading presidents.
And so, you know, I look at it
as as my job is to administer to
them.
When you're conducting any sort of a priesthood
interview with somebody, the most important question the
the first question out of your mouth is
not about your stewardship and not about people
in your in your you preside over. The
first question that in ministry interviews or or
priesthood interviews, the first question that should come
out of any leader's mouth is, how are
you doing?
And what can I do for you? And
what's going on? And it's amazing where
as I've done that, you know, branch presidents
have come into meetings thinking, well, I wanna
talk about x.
And I felt inspired, like, we're not gonna
talk about x. We're gonna talk about you.
And,
and, because really the purpose of these engagements
is I know what's going on with the
branch. I know the challenges they're having for
the most part.
And I have the things I need to
tell them that they need to know. But,
really, get the chance
to to one on one make sure they're
okay. And and and
the
you know, they're
struggling. It's they're busy. They've got their Yeah.
Everybody in Korea is here for a purpose.
The army brought them here. The air force
brought them here. Their corporation brought them here.
They're here to do one thing, and that's
the thing that they're paid to do.
And so, you know, it's a stress on
them for them. Okay. I've got this other
full time job as a branch president or
elder corps president. And so
we really have to make sure we're nurturing
them. And a lot of times it's, well,
are you using your counselor? How what can
you do? What can I do to help
you? What can we do to train
your counselors? What can I do to train?
I'm I'm really enabling a high council representative.
Like, you have to go in there and
make sure that that that those those those
challenges are dispersed. As you disperse the challenges,
it lowers the burdens on all the leaders.
And so,
so I think you just you have to
constantly be in keep in mind,
what are the needs of those leaders. I've
got a young branch president who's in a
very, very difficult job professionally.
He's under the gun, and this is like
a make or break time for him. And
here I am calling him as a branch
president.
So,
every time I'm with him, I put my
arms around him, I hug him, I'd be
you know, I've given him a piece of
blessings.
I wanna make sure
he is taken care of,
so he then can take care of the
branch and take care of his career, which
is a higher priority than his church call.
Yeah. Interesting. And this leads another question that
somewhat related I wanna ask. You know, when
I think of
military, I think of my my
naturally goes to deployments and deployments to, you
know, tough you know, experiencing tough situations that
maybe lead to PTSD,
to mental health concerns, and, you know, you
talk about the suicide rate of veterans. It's
just heartbreaking. And so do you do you
find, like and I know that's not, like,
every last person in military that's they're not
constantly experiencing trauma and those things. But do
you feel like there is an extra sense
of something you have to be aware of,
you know, serving in military units? Or
not necessary. I mean, you're always because we've
all been there.
So we're all we're all we all know
who each other. We all we all know
the triggers, and we all know the you
know, we we can see that. I'll I'll
be, you know,
not that in a % of cases it's
this way, but
to have the gospel of Jesus Christ in
your life, already that healing power of the
atonement
already is is is a balm to many
people who've gone through traumatic experiences.
And so I think,
the those who who I've worked with, that
they already have that foundation in their lives
that kinda helps ameliorate some of those problems.
But,
but
it's just the the just the whole just
the idea of stress in their lives is
you have to just be be cognizant of
the stress. You have to make sure you're
working through and and not just overloading and
be sent to, like, this this this brother
we released. Now he's not military. He's a
civilian employee here. But you just have as
as ministering to them, you have to be
cognizant of
what's going on in their lives. And you
can't just take this approach of God will
provide. It's okay. You've been called and set
apart and it'll gap. It's like, you you
can't do that. You have to be willing
to go say say assess and say, yeah.
I need to give you space
to work out some things. The other nice
thing is is that on the military side,
the military is so focused on these issues
is that they're taking care of that for
us. That we you know, if if one
of my members has a a mental health
or emotional health challenge, there's a whole network
that's there to support and sustain them. And
and I have great relationships with the chaplains
here. I've got one of one of our
brother here is a is a is a
is a fairly mid he's a mid career
chaplain, so he's got a great experience. And
he knows when to come in and have
out, whether it's a a marital issue or
or just an individual having a problem. He
speaks LDS.
So as a chaplain and a mental health
counselor, he's a great resource to say, okay.
Yes. You know, brother, I need you to
kinda help out here. And and and he's
got a, you know, whole wealth of resources
behind him in the army to help him
do that. Same with the air force and
and all of our other places. It it's,
I mean, we have an we have a
we have a a safety net for us
that that's built in. Now where we where
I don't have where nonmilitary members, it it's
a challenge.
It's a challenge. And and and and and
and this is where the Korean side of
the church and the non Korean side of
the church where we kinda have have have
difficulty working it up because how do you
provide
for example, you know, when you have somebody
that comes to you with a pornography problem
and you wanna get them into,
an LDS focused pornography addiction
process overcoming that. Well, I don't have anybody
here that speaks English.
And so they they have a great pornography
addiction program here, but this is all done
in Korean. And so,
that that's a challenge and how do we
how do we resolve it. If and I
don't have an easy answer for that. It's
just something we struggle with. Yeah. And I
guess now that I think about, like, all
things considered, they're almost better off being in
that military unit where there's so many around
them that have experienced similar things or they're
like, hey. Yeah. I know I know what
it's like to be deployed. I experienced something
similar. Or, yeah. I know what it's like
to, you know, live in a foreign country
with my family and just the natural struggles
that come with that rather than maybe just
returning to a typical, you know, ward in
The States where everybody seems like they're going
about their time, but you're struggling. Right? So
Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's interesting too. This
is another this is another lesson I learned
long ago.
Used to be a calling, if you remember,
high priest group leader, and I think I
I I've had colleagues in the church
that don't no longer exist. I think it's
I was so poor at it that that
Salt Lake says,
put the hold away broke the calling
in front of it. Again, I I used
to be a state commission president. No no
longer exists. I used to be a high
priest group. It no longer exists.
So, but at the high priest group leader,
one day we walked into our class and
and the previous people who use the room,
we had our chairs were set up in
rows. So teacher at the front, everybody in
a row, looked just like a classroom. One
day we come in and the chairs were
set up in a circle.
And, okay, we'll we'll do that.
That class ended up being a therapy session
for a bunch of old men.
And it was amazing because they're looking at
each other and tears were shed in that
in that class
because now we're looking at each other and
what it cost. Lesson wasn't about the lesson.
The lesson was about the experiences these brother
were having and some of the challenges they
were having. It it was a catalyst for
having
Relief Society,
you need to be in a circle
looking at each other. And so elders quorum
and Relief Society
become therapy sessions.
It's group therapy.
And and and and people can and and
I've encouraged elders quorum presence. Let people share
their feelings. That's what you need to be
a facilitator for people to kinda work things
out. And and you'll see a young brother
with, you know, he's there. They're young married,
first child, and he talks about the struggles
he's having. And you'll have in there somebody
who had four or five kids that are
now adults and they've got great counsel
and loving his support for them and they
start ministering to each other. And so elders
quorum really decided to become these great opportunities
where when you have people and then, of
course, our elders quorums is all military people.
So they talk about, yeah, man. My my
first sergeant's been getting out of here. I've
got these problems at work and these challenges
and yeah. I know what you're talking about,
and they can kinda help more do that
together. And I love it when when we
can be therapists to each other. Yeah. No.
It's it's powerful, and it seems so silly,
you know, that you know, some people resist
it so much that it's circling up in
in the classroom. So much easier to kinda
hide and let's just sit theater style and
have the person talk at us, and that's
great. You know? But there's something that shifts
when you get in a in a circle,
even smaller circles,
and you naturally just open up. It really
breaks down some walls. So Yeah. I I
agree. I agree.
Anything you haven't mentioned more about, like, delegation
and teaching leaders how to delegate?
Yeah. That's always a struggle. I mean, it's
a struggle from the, you know, from the
presiding authority
because Yeah. You just you just wanna hold
on to stuff. And and and it's it's
ego. Right? I've I've I've, you know, I'm
a lawyer. We we we're we're we're given
egos when we graduate from law school. And,
so you think I can do it better
than anybody else. Right? I can do that.
I'll just do it. It's easier if I
just do it.
And and
but how are you gonna teach people to
lead? How are you gonna teach them? I'm
have I'm feeling the spirit when I when
I serve in my class. I'm having a
great experience
and and and learning so much about that.
Why would I deny that to somebody else?
And so,
I think you have to delegate. And again,
it's it's a challenge as a leader
where I know what my my councils are
going through. I know what lives they lead.
It's like, oh, you know what? I'm an
empty nester. My kids are gone. I don't
have to you know, I've got extra time.
And, of course, my wife's like, no. You
don't.
And and so, like, instead of giving this
task to to president, you know, my counselor,
I'll say, oh, I'll just keep the task
myself.
And and that's,
you know, that's not how it works. And
then, of course, I've got 12 high councilmen.
Let's give them the task.
And and, you know, I I kind of
this is a bad habit I have is
I let members have direct access to me.
My phone number's in the directory,
and members it I I kinda keep things
flat.
Yeah. And then I'll get that challenge. It's
like, yeah. This is not a challenge. I
get it. Thank you for letting me know.
But let's have brother so and so on
the high council work through this issue. And
you guys if if you need me to
get engaged, I'll get engaged. So you you
just have to it's just the leadership thing
you have to be willing to delegate, and
you have to be willing to let people
do their callings.
And you you don't wanna be overbearing on
it, but let them figure the space out
for how they're gonna do their calling. Yeah.
That's powerful.
Well, before we wrap up,
maybe share with me the concept behind this
principle of connecting leaders to the blessings of
leadership.
Yeah. This is this is president Hill taught
me this. So if you go into,
it's actually four four one. It talks about
this principle of
as you lead,
you will the lives of others.
As you see their lives be blessed,
that the principles of the priesthood
and this is this is 84 as well,
is those blessings come back to you. And
president Hill calls this the cycle, the leadership
cycle,
that as we serve and lead and as
we do our best to bless others,
god will bless us back again. And Benjamin
talked about this, about our our eternal death
to god as as we are faithful and
obedient. God blesses us. That puts us in
debt, but that inspires us to to be
more obedient than god blesses us. We're always
constantly in debt to god.
That leadership cycle is just amazing because as
you serve,
then all of a sudden you see in
your own personal life,
you see alignment take place.
And and you see,
God working in your life, and you see
how grace works in your life as you
serve and help bless others. It it's this
principle of of you lose yourself to find
yourself.
If you lose yourself in the ministry,
it's amazing how that comes back in that
cycle. So you connect leaders to that cycle.
You want to connect to that idea that
they lose yourself in service,
and and you will find that that greater
capacity.
I teach branch presidents the the the principle
of the loaves and the fishes. You know,
when you call a branch president, they're like,
I have no loaves. I have no fishes.
How am I going to do this? And
if if you have faith, you look at
your time and your resources as loaves and
fishes.
Your calling as a branch president let me
step back real quick if you if you
don't mind. Is every leader I call, I
I walk them through their priorities. And I
say, your number of priority is your your
relationship with your heavenly father and savior Jesus
Christ. If you need to know what do
I need to spend time on, that's your
first priority, time priority. Your second priority is
your wife.
Your third priority is your children.
Your fourth priority is your job, and then
your fifth priority is your church calling. Now
we've all been there. I'm sure you're, as
an elder school president, have you, are thinking,
yeah. I'm not balancing that out very well.
I know I'm not.
And so but what I found is is
that as I go through this cycle of
serving the lord,
he creates loaves and fishes in my life.
And I find greater capacity to be have
a better relationship with my heavenly father and
savior Jesus Christ, a better relationship with my
wife, a better relationship with my children, a
better relationship with my employer
because
I'm doing what I can,
and I'm giving God the space to give
me those loaves and fishes. So that's that
cycle. That's what I like, we try to
work with with leaders about connecting you to
that to that cycle. And trust the lord
will give you those loves and fishes.
That's powerful. Love it. Really good. Well, John,
this has been so insightful and just so
interesting to learn,
about leadership, but more in the context of
maybe,
you know, the the in places that aren't
familiar to a lot of us, you know,
being in a military,
unit in in Seoul, Korea and and wow.
What a remarkable experience. And,
last question I have for you is just
as you reflect on your time as a
leader, how has being a leader helped you
become a better follower of Jesus Christ?
Yeah. So I'll I'll I'll tell you that
by telling a story that that has, blessed
me greatly. When I was in Germany,
this is at the beginning of the wars
in
Iraq, called Operation Iraqi Freedom, number '1, '2
thousand and '3. And most of the brethren
in our district had or our our,
our stake, our stake over there, had left.
And so I had several columns. I was,
I think, at that time, I was on
the high council and I was the gospel
doctor instructor and and every and, of course,
and and I was home teaching what we
called war widows
and happening with their families, which is a
very stressful time.
We were I was in Darmstadt, Germany, which
is just south of Frankfurt, and the area
presidency is in Frankfurt. And at the time,
elder Craig Zwick was in the area presidency.
His our elders quorum president,
was,
had been a missionary under when elders Zwick
was a mission president. And so elders Zwick,
whenever he had not no other assignment in
the church on the side, he'd come to
our branch.
And and I was teaching god. I taught
him gospel doctrine,
several times. And and it's intimidating in a
classroom and have on the front row a
member of the quorum of the seventies who
are trying to teach the doctrines of the
church. And so I stammered my way through
the lessons.
But after every lesson,
elders Wick would come up to me and
look me in the eye
with as
the face of Christ is all I can
say. That Christ like love. And he put
his hand on my shoulder and say, put
a hold away. That is the best lesson
to I I've ever had on that topic.
You did an amazing love. I love you.
Thank you so much.
How much was that? Ten seconds?
That ten seconds changed my life
every time you did that.
And I think as we serve and as
we remember
that we reflect
the love of our savior Jesus Christ. And
as we look people in the eye, we
we may not have the balm to heal
everything in their lives. But if we look
them in the eyes leaders and we, with
testimony and with power,
say,
I love you.
I'm grateful for what you do. The lord
loves you.
Keep driving on and do the best you
can do. Let me know how I can
help, and we will pray for you and
whatever I can do to help you.
Ten seconds. You do that as a leader,
you will change lives.
Connect them to heaven,
challenge them to pray,
and and and and you will see amazing
results. And again, like this leadership cycle, and
you will see amazing results in your personal
life. Do something.
If you screw it up, that's fine. The
lord will walk and help you through it.
If it goes well, boy, the blessings are
just amazing,
but never do nothing.
And that concludes this how I lead
interview. I hope you enjoyed it. And, I
would ask you, could you take a minute
and drop this link in an email, on
social media, in a text, wherever it makes
the most sense, and share it with somebody
who could relate to this experience. And this
is how we develop as leaders, just hearing
what the other guy's doing, trying some things
out, testing, adjusting
for your area. And,
that's where great leadership's discovered. Right? So we
would love to have you, share this with,
somebody in this calling or a related calling,
and that would be great. And also if
you know somebody,
any type of leader who would be a
fantastic guest on the how I lead segment,
reach out to us. Go to leadingsaints.org/contact.
Maybe send this in individual an email letting
them know that you're going to be suggesting
their name for this interview. We'll reach out
to them and, see see if we can
line them up. So, again, go to leadingsaints.org/contact,
and there you can submit all the information
and let us know. And maybe they will
be on a future How I Lead segment
on the Leading Saints podcast.
Remember,
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It came as a result of the position
of leadership which was imposed upon us
by the God of heaven who brought forth
a restoration
of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
And when the declaration was made
concerning the only and only true and living
church upon the face of the earth,
we were immediately put in a position of
loneliness,
the loneliness of leadership
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,
and to which we must face up with
boldness and courage
and ability.