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Hello. Welcome to the leading sayings podcast.

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Now if you're not aware something pretty awesome

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is happening. The weekend of this release of

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this episode you're listening to right now. We

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are in the middle of a virtual conference

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that we are helping out Hello saints,

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pastor Jeff Mc,

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really pull off and execute and make it

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awesome. And so I wanted to feature

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a session that I was involved in that

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was... That is part of this, Hello saints

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virtual summit, and it was such a fun

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discussion. I wanted to give you an early

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glimpse at it, and then encourage you to

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go sign up for free. There's still an

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opportunity to see all the sessions that have

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happened. So we'll sign up for free at

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hello saints. I'll put the the link and

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everything in the description to this episode and

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you're gonna love. So this episode,

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I sit down to the magic of the

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Internet. With 4

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evangelical pastors. You see we did, an interview

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on the flip side where Jeff, pastor jeff

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sits down with 3

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bishop, me being 1 of those bishop. And

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so we wanted to do the same thing

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by the other way around. Does that make

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sense? Where I sit down with evangelical capacitors,

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and we talk about general leadership What's it

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like being a pastor? What's the day in

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the life like?

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What has your most concern? What... What's burnout

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like for a pastor? And just these little

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things that we could learn from maybe a

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different faith experience,

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and and maybe gather what we can and

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and improve our own leadership.

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So here is a sneak peek.

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Of the full interview that I had with

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4 evangelical pastors, and you're gonna love it

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and be sure to go to the the

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notes with this with this episode and help

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head on over to Hello Saints and sign

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up for free and enjoy the rest of

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the summit, And so here is my interview

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with 4 evangelical pastors.

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Everyone, my name is Kurt Frank with leading

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saints, and I have the opportunity to host

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this session of the Hello Saints virtual summit.

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Even though Jeff is is on stage with

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me, I'm I'm taking control and leading out

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here. Because before, Jeff and I, with 2

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other

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lottery Saint Bishop. We had a panel discussion

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that Jeff led as a as a pastor.

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And we talked about, some of those dynamics

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that

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Latter, Saint. Church leaders experience. So we're kind

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of turning on the tables on that dynamic

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where I'm the the Latter Saint Bishop who

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is talking with for fantastic

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evangelical protestant pastors.

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And we're gonna just have a good casual

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friendly conversation who what we learn Discover, and

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have there... They seem like a a group

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of of great guys. So there may be

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some laughter here and there, and I I

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welcome that. So,

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just by wave of introduction. Maybe, Jeff, Let's

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start with you. I'd love to just go

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around the And just maybe give a a

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paragraph introduction, put yourself into context

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if how long you've been past where you're

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from those types of things? Yeah.

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So as far as I'm concerned, I, pastor

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in Be, Illinois,

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for

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many years and pass it alongside Curtis, not

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at the same church, but we... Our church

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has partnered quite a bit. Yep. And

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yeah, I I have been

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in various roles in ministry, which is a

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pretty common thing. I think all

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all 4 of us are gonna start nodding

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our heads when I talk about the typical

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path that a lot of pastors take where,

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you you kinda have an interest in student

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ministry slash youth. You dabble in that for

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a while then maybe go and get some

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more education or coordination. And

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Kyle, I don't know if you... If you

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were in there, but

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I didn't I did music for a while

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as well, but

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you know, eventually, after moving beyond, what was

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more of a volunteer

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type of situation for me,

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became full time at a church.

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Almost 15 years ago and pastor

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up until a couple years ago whenever I

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stepped aside to focus more on Hello. And

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relocating the Utah.

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Awesome. Curtis. Let's go with to you next.

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Hey, hey. Yeah. I am Curtis Gilbert, and

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like, Jeff mentioned,

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I was able and been brief to pass

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alongside of him, and what call Metro East,

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which is

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kinda the Illinois suburbs of Saint louis,

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and, been pastor during for many years. Started

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as the youth ministry you've pastor, at... Even

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at the the church that I'm leading at

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now was used pastor to left for about

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a decade to lead another the church and

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And,

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I'm a year and I have back into

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leading as a senior pastor,

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of this church in a community called Shiloh,

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Illinois.

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Awesome. Kyle, let's jump to you next.

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I'm a I'm a pastor mobile, Alabama, who

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I've been serving at a non denomination church

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for 11 years and

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I've run the ga of responsibilities. Ryan, anything

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from

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facilities to preaching and teaching. Mainly what I

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do now is preaching and teaching and counseling.

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Married, we have a little girl,

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originally, from Indiana, so not from

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Mobile, Alabama, you're wondering what's wrong with the

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accent.

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But I also have AAA keen interest in,

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in,

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studying the Latter Saint Faith and tradition. So

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when I did my Phd, southern seminary in

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religious studies,

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I'd looked at us, a history of Within,

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the d.

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History,

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and I have a book coming out as

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an introduction to

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L phase and practice and traditions for a

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traditional Christian audience.

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Awesome.

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Then we'll end with introductions my fellow Utah,

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Nate. Yeah. My name is Dave Fox. I'm

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a pastor in Here, Utah, and

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my

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story of becoming to pastor pretty

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pretty un timely. Like, I I went to

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Bible school in Chicago, Moody Bub institute, my

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my wife there.

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And then I was working in kind of

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the sports apparel industry, kinda launched my career

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into that, but kinda dabbling in what's called

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church planting.

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Where I was hanging out with

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you know, other guys who were starting brand

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new churches did that in the Seattle Tacoma

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area and then

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wasn't really a full time

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as a pass, but just just

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you know, helping out as I could. And

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then

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my career took me to a sports apparel

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company in Pro Utah. Moved here 22 years

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ago as a marketing director,

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product development direct.

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And then, in 2010,

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after crew in that, I ended up becoming

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the youth pastor at a church called Center

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point Norm.

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And I was there for about a decade.

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And

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now I'm lead pastor at a church called

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West church in Here Utah. So

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little bit different pathway than a lot of

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guys, but

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I'm, I'm here in Utah and I'm a

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love data pass.

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Awesome. Well, and,

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this kinda will launch us into the first

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question I have, just from the... My my

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own context, you know, here I was living

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in a condo in South Salt Lake, sort

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of the inner city, newly wed,

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just a few years, and

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and had no attention of, you know, going

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into

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ministry as as you may may call it

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or being asked to to be the lead

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pass or a bishop of a congregation. But

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as you know, we we function by a

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ministry. And

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just the nature of that ward with a

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bunch of

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with our condominium complex, A bunch of apartments.

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Leadership was generally called on an in a

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younger age. So I'm got 28 year old

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marketing grad,

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I get the phone call to come meet

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with our our stake pet president, and the

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the the invitation is extended to me to

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serve as the bishop of the Lee Ward.

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Or the lee ward congregation for

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about 5 years. And so there it was

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thrust into that,

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trying to to to swim more than I

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I think and and learning all sorts of

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things. And so I'm curious just about that

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dynamic of the calling. You know, in our

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our faith tradition. The calling is almost overly

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formalized where it's sort of like your assignments,

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what you've been asked to do to help

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out around the church. But

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if someone asked you, like, where did this

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calling of service come or start,

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what how would you... Tell that story in

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in in a... Or sunrise that story. I'll

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go ahead.

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So I grew up in a pastor family.

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We moved credit quite a bit all over,

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the country into Canada

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did a did a little

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missionary stint

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for 3 years in Cameron in West Africa.

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So pastor missionary kid, and we call it

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MKPK.

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In the evangelical world. And I was also

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homeschool school. So I homeschool kid, pastor kid,

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missionary kid. I got all the strengths against

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me. There's no reason I should be okay.

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I don't know if that's a Joke. That

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anybody else give, but I I it's it's

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the joke of the even evangelical community. That

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being said,

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along the way, even as a kid, you

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know, we you would grow up and in

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church and

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back in the, probably the eighties and nineties.

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This was more prevalent Sunday school. And I

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know that was... That's a thing in the

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the L community, But we've go to Sunday

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school. And I just... I remember

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Sunday school teachers going.

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You're gonna be a pastor someday. You know,

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it's just that

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affirmation,

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you're gonna be a pastor someday. And

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it was always... I took it as a

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compliment because I really do lock my dad.

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You know, It's was like, a hey

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I could be like dad someday.

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Back, that that was just a little kid

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dreaming of kinda going. Okay. I'll like my

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dad I could be like that. But then

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later in high school. I was like, now,

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I don't wanna I don't wanna be a

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pastor. But this sounds terrible.

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And

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really started to look into other things and

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but that same messaging from my fellowship of

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Christian athletes leader,

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other other people in ministry going

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hey. I really think you... You might wanna

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pursue that. And so that came to a

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head after graduating

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for me,

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right around my senior year of high school

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praying about this a lot more.

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00:10:20,176 --> 00:10:22,504
Crazy enough, to high school is inquire

273
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and I had a choir teacher that had

274
00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:27,509
graduated from the Moody Bible institute in Chicago,

275
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and he was amazing, great mentor wonderful man.

276
00:10:31,269 --> 00:10:33,666
And and he he he poured into me

277
00:10:33,666 --> 00:10:34,945
a ton and I was like, I'm gonna

278
00:10:34,945 --> 00:10:36,383
go to Moody. I'm gonna go figure it

279
00:10:36,383 --> 00:10:38,860
out. And sure enough right before going to

280
00:10:39,020 --> 00:10:39,520
Moody

281
00:10:40,634 --> 00:10:42,791
I just really sense, God was laying on

282
00:10:42,791 --> 00:10:44,789
my heart to go into ministry.

283
00:10:45,988 --> 00:10:47,826
And then it didn't happen. Like I said,

284
00:10:47,986 --> 00:10:49,025
before my introduction,

285
00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:51,274
I wasn't an in full time ministry for,

286
00:10:51,354 --> 00:10:53,429
like, another 14 years.

287
00:10:54,226 --> 00:10:55,583
And so it was, like, god was, like,

288
00:10:56,062 --> 00:10:56,381
pause,

289
00:10:57,192 --> 00:10:58,304
you know, and and,

290
00:10:59,575 --> 00:11:02,196
the coolest thing about it is sensing not

291
00:11:02,196 --> 00:11:05,056
just a call ministry, but a call the

292
00:11:05,056 --> 00:11:06,407
ministry here in Utah.

293
00:11:07,299 --> 00:11:07,799
And

294
00:11:08,259 --> 00:11:10,340
all of the nuances that that kinda of

295
00:11:10,340 --> 00:11:12,259
flow in and out of what it's like

296
00:11:12,259 --> 00:11:13,480
to do ministry

297
00:11:14,500 --> 00:11:15,879
with L mds people

298
00:11:16,274 --> 00:11:18,768
and with people in this culture, and

299
00:11:19,225 --> 00:11:20,522
I love it. And

300
00:11:21,219 --> 00:11:22,256
I feel called to this.

301
00:11:22,974 --> 00:11:25,765
And I had an experience moving out here.

302
00:11:26,338 --> 00:11:28,013
And this wasn't for ministry. Like I said,

303
00:11:28,172 --> 00:11:29,549
I moved out here for marketing

304
00:11:30,245 --> 00:11:30,564
and,

305
00:11:32,558 --> 00:11:34,471
product development of a sports company.

306
00:11:35,124 --> 00:11:37,111
But I remember having in this experience,

307
00:11:37,986 --> 00:11:39,655
right as we were about to cross the

308
00:11:39,814 --> 00:11:41,506
Columbia river from Washington

309
00:11:41,881 --> 00:11:44,186
into Oregon right there by Vancouver and Portland,

310
00:11:45,236 --> 00:11:48,262
and we were moving to Pro Utah. Didn't

311
00:11:48,262 --> 00:11:50,890
know anybody except all the guys that I

312
00:11:50,890 --> 00:11:51,708
worked with

313
00:11:52,483 --> 00:11:52,983
at

314
00:11:53,534 --> 00:11:56,168
a, company called Pro Sports, and they were

315
00:11:56,168 --> 00:11:56,668
all

316
00:11:57,206 --> 00:11:59,302
really devout return missionaries,

317
00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:01,936
buddies from Southern Utah University,

318
00:12:02,489 --> 00:12:04,484
And I... And I didn't know anybody else,

319
00:12:04,564 --> 00:12:06,421
and I said, I feel

320
00:12:06,879 --> 00:12:09,992
like we're going to Utah. And we... I

321
00:12:10,151 --> 00:12:11,921
Thought... I said, I told my wife. This

322
00:12:11,921 --> 00:12:13,298
is I I feel like

323
00:12:13,835 --> 00:12:15,907
this is more than just a job.

324
00:12:16,545 --> 00:12:18,459
This is a ministry. This is a calling.

325
00:12:18,698 --> 00:12:21,606
This is a mission. And deeply sensed it

326
00:12:21,824 --> 00:12:24,218
in that moment, you know, in a parking

327
00:12:24,218 --> 00:12:26,851
lot at a at a Fred meyer.

328
00:12:27,823 --> 00:12:29,837
And and then they're crossing the river

329
00:12:31,011 --> 00:12:33,722
into into, oregon and driving the rest of

330
00:12:33,722 --> 00:12:35,316
way of the Utah going. K.

331
00:12:35,969 --> 00:12:37,087
This is where god wants me to be,

332
00:12:37,326 --> 00:12:39,162
and I've been here for 22 years. For

333
00:12:39,162 --> 00:12:41,478
a guy who's only lived about 2 and

334
00:12:41,478 --> 00:12:44,192
a half, 3 years everywhere during the course

335
00:12:44,192 --> 00:12:45,524
of my entire life to

336
00:12:46,042 --> 00:12:47,951
For god to kinda plant me here for

337
00:12:47,951 --> 00:12:50,894
22 years straight is a little odd. It

338
00:12:50,894 --> 00:12:54,016
feels weird. But my wife and I've raised

339
00:12:54,016 --> 00:12:56,012
our family here, we'd love it here. But

340
00:12:56,172 --> 00:12:58,348
I don't think we would have stuck

341
00:12:58,966 --> 00:13:00,882
if there wasn't a profound sense of calling

342
00:13:00,882 --> 00:13:02,733
from the holy spirit. To be here. Yeah.

343
00:13:03,532 --> 00:13:05,929
Yeah. That's awesome. Curtis, what about you? Did

344
00:13:05,929 --> 00:13:06,328
god

345
00:13:06,808 --> 00:13:07,926
put this calling on your heart?

346
00:13:09,378 --> 00:13:10,094
Yeah. He did.

347
00:13:10,730 --> 00:13:12,820
You know, I think, my story,

348
00:13:13,353 --> 00:13:14,863
you know, bit different in,

349
00:13:16,135 --> 00:13:18,654
much of my younger years was was not

350
00:13:20,769 --> 00:13:22,525
what I would what would call walking with

351
00:13:22,525 --> 00:13:24,360
the lord in any way or Christian in

352
00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:24,759
any way.

353
00:13:25,637 --> 00:13:26,809
I lived life for myself

354
00:13:27,485 --> 00:13:27,985
and

355
00:13:28,915 --> 00:13:30,584
passionately did so. And so,

356
00:13:31,617 --> 00:13:33,548
I went off to college

357
00:13:34,319 --> 00:13:35,376
at our State University,

358
00:13:35,924 --> 00:13:37,365
to study business. It was a number 1

359
00:13:37,365 --> 00:13:37,865
business

360
00:13:38,245 --> 00:13:39,365
school at the time of the area that

361
00:13:39,445 --> 00:13:41,605
I was folks again, and I went there

362
00:13:41,605 --> 00:13:42,884
because I just wanted to make a lot

363
00:13:42,884 --> 00:13:45,365
of money and live the leave the East.

364
00:13:46,889 --> 00:13:47,366
And,

365
00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,303
that's actually was my plan for this my

366
00:13:50,303 --> 00:13:52,208
life. To just be either vice president of

367
00:13:52,208 --> 00:13:53,026
sales and marketing.

368
00:13:53,732 --> 00:13:56,198
Or Ceo or whatever case may be, where

369
00:13:56,198 --> 00:13:57,551
year after college,

370
00:13:58,823 --> 00:13:59,619
that's when I

371
00:14:00,746 --> 00:14:03,306
that's when Jesus just invaded my life, and

372
00:14:04,074 --> 00:14:06,768
it was in... It was soon after that

373
00:14:06,768 --> 00:14:07,268
where

374
00:14:08,695 --> 00:14:11,095
Christianity Jesus christ became real to me that

375
00:14:11,254 --> 00:14:13,654
I sense kinda that call. Like, I think

376
00:14:13,654 --> 00:14:15,254
there is something else he's gonna do in

377
00:14:15,254 --> 00:14:15,575
my life.

378
00:14:16,388 --> 00:14:18,063
To be honest, I didn't want that, but

379
00:14:18,063 --> 00:14:21,095
to be to... I I love business... Still

380
00:14:21,095 --> 00:14:22,371
do love business. In fact,

381
00:14:23,024 --> 00:14:24,376
have been looking for a way out of

382
00:14:24,376 --> 00:14:25,649
ministry for a long time. The lord was

383
00:14:25,649 --> 00:14:27,558
like, nah. This is what you're gonna do

384
00:14:27,558 --> 00:14:28,751
fool, quit asking.

385
00:14:31,236 --> 00:14:33,310
It's so and so and so, you know,

386
00:14:33,470 --> 00:14:35,704
soon after that, you know, my... I just

387
00:14:35,704 --> 00:14:37,355
was surrounded with community that

388
00:14:38,034 --> 00:14:40,195
1, I knew enough that he was calling

389
00:14:40,195 --> 00:14:41,174
me to do something

390
00:14:42,195 --> 00:14:43,014
just to

391
00:14:43,714 --> 00:14:45,154
help people and had a love for his

392
00:14:45,154 --> 00:14:46,850
word. I thought it was just on the

393
00:14:46,850 --> 00:14:47,669
side as volunteer,

394
00:14:48,450 --> 00:14:49,990
but just do circumstances,

395
00:14:51,409 --> 00:14:53,330
into the encouragement and my wife and friends,

396
00:14:54,144 --> 00:14:56,141
I stepped into youth ministry, and that's when

397
00:14:56,301 --> 00:14:58,618
I realized. Okay. I think I think it's

398
00:14:58,618 --> 00:15:00,936
more than just a hobby or a side

399
00:15:00,936 --> 00:15:03,102
activity that I think it's actually supposed to

400
00:15:03,102 --> 00:15:03,978
be my whole life.

401
00:15:04,614 --> 00:15:05,114
And

402
00:15:05,728 --> 00:15:07,797
and I've been doing it ever since. That

403
00:15:07,797 --> 00:15:09,722
was 2006

404
00:15:09,722 --> 00:15:11,072
or 7 that I stepped in,

405
00:15:11,788 --> 00:15:14,251
and here I am, still at,

406
00:15:15,522 --> 00:15:17,523
and and the best I could say. It's

407
00:15:17,523 --> 00:15:19,110
been the calling Like, what the scripture says,

408
00:15:19,269 --> 00:15:20,857
the the word of the lord came. It's,

409
00:15:20,936 --> 00:15:22,365
like, the... That's that's kinda how it came.

410
00:15:22,524 --> 00:15:24,270
And, you know, It's, like, as mysterious and

411
00:15:24,270 --> 00:15:26,269
weird does that sounds, like, Man, I wouldn't

412
00:15:26,269 --> 00:15:28,332
be here, Jesus didn't call me, I had

413
00:15:28,332 --> 00:15:30,396
other options. He just over overrule those. And

414
00:15:30,396 --> 00:15:32,141
so and and and I said that with

415
00:15:32,221 --> 00:15:33,014
Joy as in,

416
00:15:33,649 --> 00:15:36,070
I get to be a part of serving

417
00:15:36,523 --> 00:15:39,143
god's people. So that's my story. Awesome. And

418
00:15:39,302 --> 00:15:41,072
I would imagine. I mean, I'm I'm sure,

419
00:15:41,208 --> 00:15:43,534
you know, God puts the, you know, some

420
00:15:44,485 --> 00:15:46,985
puts an invitation of service or calling on

421
00:15:47,125 --> 00:15:48,804
individual's harp... That doesn't necessarily mean. They have

422
00:15:48,804 --> 00:15:50,245
go full time or maybe it's just a

423
00:15:50,245 --> 00:15:52,811
volunteer effort or I mean, it's probably although

424
00:15:52,811 --> 00:15:55,197
those most people. Yeah. Yes. I would say

425
00:15:55,197 --> 00:15:56,015
most people

426
00:15:57,186 --> 00:15:59,016
functioning in that way, and and I and

427
00:15:59,095 --> 00:16:00,383
I think that's a good thing. You know,

428
00:16:00,621 --> 00:16:02,053
Right. Just give you... The goal just give

429
00:16:02,053 --> 00:16:03,644
you a life away and whatever,

430
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:06,508
capacity that it calls you to. Yeah.

431
00:16:07,639 --> 00:16:09,477
Let's go to Kyle, what tell the brief

432
00:16:09,477 --> 00:16:10,995
story of how how you were called in

433
00:16:10,995 --> 00:16:13,392
this in the ministry? Yeah. It sounds my

434
00:16:13,392 --> 00:16:13,892
story

435
00:16:14,591 --> 00:16:15,605
sounds like it

436
00:16:16,043 --> 00:16:17,879
parallels a bit with Curtis story.

437
00:16:18,917 --> 00:16:19,955
If you were to tell me,

438
00:16:20,833 --> 00:16:22,350
when I was, you know, in my early

439
00:16:22,350 --> 00:16:23,787
twenties, I was gonna be a pastor, I

440
00:16:23,787 --> 00:16:24,265
would laugh.

441
00:16:24,918 --> 00:16:25,736
Out loud

442
00:16:26,189 --> 00:16:27,404
at you. Like there's

443
00:16:27,778 --> 00:16:30,240
no way that that would be who I

444
00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:32,703
would become. But, in, the Lord has other

445
00:16:32,703 --> 00:16:33,021
plans,

446
00:16:34,150 --> 00:16:35,366
in evangelical

447
00:16:35,822 --> 00:16:36,800
calling to

448
00:16:37,494 --> 00:16:39,029
become a pastor is

449
00:16:39,404 --> 00:16:41,076
typically slow and informal.

450
00:16:41,649 --> 00:16:43,327
And there's kind of a lot of streams

451
00:16:43,327 --> 00:16:45,165
that pull into it. There is this kind

452
00:16:45,165 --> 00:16:46,524
of inner subjective,

453
00:16:47,243 --> 00:16:50,140
tag to ministry. There's a very famous

454
00:16:51,568 --> 00:16:52,068
Baptist

455
00:16:52,603 --> 00:16:55,626
London pastor Charles Spur who basically is, like,

456
00:16:55,706 --> 00:16:57,298
look, if if you can see yourself doing

457
00:16:57,298 --> 00:16:59,740
anything else besides preaching, go do it. But

458
00:17:00,259 --> 00:17:02,500
if you can and and god has fixed

459
00:17:02,500 --> 00:17:04,339
you in this certain white pursue it and

460
00:17:04,339 --> 00:17:05,319
pursue it relentlessly.

461
00:17:06,179 --> 00:17:07,700
So there is that kind of, like, inner

462
00:17:07,700 --> 00:17:10,130
tag, and then there is kind of external

463
00:17:10,425 --> 00:17:10,585
affirmation,

464
00:17:11,699 --> 00:17:12,199
people

465
00:17:12,971 --> 00:17:14,881
out of nowhere. So have you ever considered

466
00:17:14,881 --> 00:17:16,049
being a pastor or

467
00:17:16,490 --> 00:17:19,210
you know, your natural talents in the spiritual

468
00:17:19,210 --> 00:17:21,610
gifting that the holy spirit have given you

469
00:17:21,610 --> 00:17:23,450
are kind of pointing in a certain direction.

470
00:17:23,690 --> 00:17:25,289
I don't know if you have noticed that

471
00:17:25,289 --> 00:17:25,610
or not.

472
00:17:26,657 --> 00:17:28,165
And then and then just like, looking back

473
00:17:28,165 --> 00:17:30,863
at your life in in how the lord

474
00:17:30,863 --> 00:17:33,639
orchestrate certain seasons of your life to prepare

475
00:17:33,639 --> 00:17:33,798
you.

476
00:17:35,168 --> 00:17:37,565
To to to enter into local ministry.

477
00:17:38,684 --> 00:17:40,841
I... We've had incredible opportunities.

478
00:17:42,612 --> 00:17:44,761
I... We... We're... We've got to live overseas

479
00:17:44,761 --> 00:17:46,911
for for a season in Germany and England

480
00:17:46,911 --> 00:17:49,299
and in those times, in Germany because we're

481
00:17:49,458 --> 00:17:50,016
English speakers.

482
00:17:50,746 --> 00:17:52,970
We were, like, quickly promoted to teaching English

483
00:17:52,970 --> 00:17:54,003
speaking bible studies.

484
00:17:54,718 --> 00:17:57,022
So, like, like minister administering to people,

485
00:17:58,073 --> 00:18:00,807
by teaching in disciples ship 1 on 1

486
00:18:00,866 --> 00:18:02,941
in evan that was kind of our our

487
00:18:02,941 --> 00:18:03,420
first stop.

488
00:18:04,457 --> 00:18:06,706
We moved to England to Cambridge and we

489
00:18:06,706 --> 00:18:08,461
lived there for 3 years and we were

490
00:18:08,461 --> 00:18:09,520
given the opportunity,

491
00:18:10,296 --> 00:18:13,497
to to lead and to oversee a cluster

492
00:18:13,497 --> 00:18:15,796
of community groups, disciples ship groups, so that

493
00:18:15,796 --> 00:18:17,247
kind of, you know, got our

494
00:18:18,094 --> 00:18:19,759
our our appetite wet for ministry.

495
00:18:20,409 --> 00:18:21,047
And then

496
00:18:22,243 --> 00:18:25,035
that a church in mobile, Alabama that we

497
00:18:25,035 --> 00:18:27,428
had been associated with before we left the

498
00:18:27,587 --> 00:18:29,262
United States called, and they said, like, this

499
00:18:29,262 --> 00:18:30,194
is a long shot

500
00:18:30,950 --> 00:18:33,018
would you ever wanna come back to the

501
00:18:33,018 --> 00:18:33,814
to the Gulf Coast?

502
00:18:34,769 --> 00:18:37,075
We have a position for you. It's gonna

503
00:18:37,075 --> 00:18:38,666
be like the pastor of Miscellaneous,

504
00:18:39,716 --> 00:18:41,785
long story short, the church that I'm a

505
00:18:41,785 --> 00:18:44,014
part of, like, accidentally planted a second church.

506
00:18:44,173 --> 00:18:45,924
It started as a a bible study and

507
00:18:45,924 --> 00:18:46,560
just blew up.

508
00:18:47,213 --> 00:18:48,887
And so they said, like, we we know

509
00:18:48,887 --> 00:18:50,880
you, we we sense, like god's calling in

510
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:52,793
a ministry, would you ever come back, that

511
00:18:52,793 --> 00:18:54,706
was a really big step of faith for

512
00:18:54,706 --> 00:18:54,865
us.

513
00:18:55,834 --> 00:18:57,900
Moving from Cambridge to Movie, Alabama.

514
00:18:58,853 --> 00:19:00,760
But the Lord blessed that and honored it

515
00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:01,260
and

516
00:19:02,841 --> 00:19:05,786
there's not quite an instruction manual for ministry,

517
00:19:06,104 --> 00:19:08,332
but what I've noticed is, there are other

518
00:19:08,332 --> 00:19:10,162
men and women around you that that got

519
00:19:10,162 --> 00:19:13,204
that got intentionally. Places around you to to

520
00:19:13,204 --> 00:19:13,523
help you.

521
00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:16,713
And so I've I've been personally enriched by

522
00:19:16,713 --> 00:19:16,872
ministry,

523
00:19:17,989 --> 00:19:20,323
by being in this role, it's it's difficult

524
00:19:21,674 --> 00:19:23,774
it... The burnout rate is very, very high

525
00:19:23,914 --> 00:19:24,954
for for pastors.

526
00:19:25,515 --> 00:19:27,434
So if you don't have that calling. Like,

527
00:19:27,595 --> 00:19:28,154
some days,

528
00:19:29,434 --> 00:19:30,234
when I come home,

529
00:19:30,888 --> 00:19:33,439
it's just because the calling is still there

530
00:19:33,439 --> 00:19:35,750
that I wanna keep going, like, that that

531
00:19:35,829 --> 00:19:36,547
I wanna return,

532
00:19:37,264 --> 00:19:38,061
that next Sunday.

533
00:19:38,955 --> 00:19:41,275
So, yeah, that's a great question. And probably

534
00:19:41,275 --> 00:19:42,335
a pretty mysterious

535
00:19:43,355 --> 00:19:46,049
opaque process from the L perspective looking in

536
00:19:46,409 --> 00:19:46,728
Awesome.

537
00:19:47,526 --> 00:19:49,123
Jeff, what about you? What the what's your

538
00:19:49,123 --> 00:19:51,358
story? Yeah. It seems like I articulate quite

539
00:19:51,358 --> 00:19:53,753
often how I ended up in Utah being

540
00:19:53,753 --> 00:19:56,104
a Youtube pastor, but there's so much backstory

541
00:19:56,162 --> 00:19:58,897
there. I grew up in Christian family, and

542
00:20:00,472 --> 00:20:01,132
it was,

543
00:20:02,069 --> 00:20:04,476
you know, probably junior high camp that I

544
00:20:04,476 --> 00:20:06,485
went to in 19 93

545
00:20:06,699 --> 00:20:08,287
that I was like, I'm gonna... I wanna

546
00:20:08,287 --> 00:20:09,398
go into a ministry. I wanna be a

547
00:20:09,398 --> 00:20:09,716
pastor.

548
00:20:10,669 --> 00:20:12,574
And then never thought about it again. Every

549
00:20:12,574 --> 00:20:14,019
kid that goes wants to be a pastor

550
00:20:14,019 --> 00:20:14,814
when they get back from you.

551
00:20:15,927 --> 00:20:17,357
They wanna be uc caps. That what happens

552
00:20:17,357 --> 00:20:18,016
like what

553
00:20:18,867 --> 00:20:19,980
That would be a you they either wanna

554
00:20:19,980 --> 00:20:21,252
be uc pastor or be a cam counselor,

555
00:20:21,332 --> 00:20:21,967
so that's what it is.

556
00:20:23,655 --> 00:20:24,155
So,

557
00:20:24,851 --> 00:20:26,924
yeah. I I pretty much went into college.

558
00:20:27,721 --> 00:20:28,997
My mom telling me you're gonna be a

559
00:20:28,997 --> 00:20:30,671
pastor 1 day and me saying, no. Thank

560
00:20:30,671 --> 00:20:33,871
you. But, I started leading worship. I was

561
00:20:33,871 --> 00:20:34,985
really involved in the music at the church.

562
00:20:35,701 --> 00:20:36,917
And in 2000

563
00:20:37,054 --> 00:20:39,441
pretty much took the position as the main

564
00:20:39,441 --> 00:20:41,762
worship leader at the church I grew up

565
00:20:41,762 --> 00:20:42,580
at, and

566
00:20:43,350 --> 00:20:45,177
that was when I was graduating high school

567
00:20:45,177 --> 00:20:45,812
going into college.

568
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,623
And and intern at that church,

569
00:20:50,353 --> 00:20:52,422
for summer during college, and it was after

570
00:20:52,422 --> 00:20:54,331
that internship that I was like, no thanks.

571
00:20:54,649 --> 00:20:55,467
I don't think

572
00:20:56,081 --> 00:20:56,717
ministry is for me.

573
00:20:58,323 --> 00:20:59,993
Internships Would do that. Didn't money. Just say

574
00:20:59,993 --> 00:21:01,266
that to you think it did an internship,

575
00:21:01,425 --> 00:21:02,300
and it was like no, thanks.

576
00:21:04,542 --> 00:21:06,050
So, yeah. The long the short of it

577
00:21:06,050 --> 00:21:08,114
is, I, you know, got the degree in

578
00:21:08,114 --> 00:21:10,337
audio video production went into radio Tv,

579
00:21:11,131 --> 00:21:11,528
marketing,

580
00:21:12,416 --> 00:21:14,244
I was working at a company called Network

581
00:21:14,562 --> 00:21:17,581
Solutions in Swan, Illinois, and I was standing

582
00:21:17,581 --> 00:21:17,899
outside of,

583
00:21:18,932 --> 00:21:20,362
Hr after I just fired a guy.

584
00:21:21,013 --> 00:21:21,491
And

585
00:21:21,969 --> 00:21:24,120
it was like, it was almost a the

586
00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:26,111
damascus road type of experience almost. I just

587
00:21:26,111 --> 00:21:28,262
thought the lord quite clearly say.

588
00:21:28,899 --> 00:21:31,299
This isn't it. Missing ain't it. Like, I

589
00:21:31,299 --> 00:21:32,276
want you to

590
00:21:33,126 --> 00:21:34,341
take all of these

591
00:21:35,588 --> 00:21:37,415
desires, passions, gifting things I've given you and

592
00:21:37,415 --> 00:21:39,823
use them for something that's more directly tied

593
00:21:39,823 --> 00:21:40,382
to eternity.

594
00:21:41,182 --> 00:21:42,700
So that was probably 2007,

595
00:21:43,659 --> 00:21:44,058
and,

596
00:21:45,337 --> 00:21:47,575
contacted, you know, the the church that I

597
00:21:47,575 --> 00:21:49,343
was associated with at the time,

598
00:21:50,537 --> 00:21:52,846
started helping out with student because my wife

599
00:21:52,846 --> 00:21:53,881
and I did that when we were in

600
00:21:53,881 --> 00:21:54,120
college,

601
00:21:54,916 --> 00:21:57,557
we did some college ministry. And so, yeah,

602
00:21:57,716 --> 00:22:00,680
2008 was technically when I really started pressing

603
00:22:00,736 --> 00:22:01,236
into

604
00:22:01,611 --> 00:22:03,121
ministry while I was still in the corporate

605
00:22:03,121 --> 00:22:05,450
world. And here's the deal. And and

606
00:22:06,159 --> 00:22:07,598
it's it's crazy how this works out. It

607
00:22:07,598 --> 00:22:09,596
was a big decision for us because we're

608
00:22:09,596 --> 00:22:11,594
stepping out of... I was flying up the

609
00:22:11,594 --> 00:22:14,471
corporate ladder, with secure job, insurance. We're getting

610
00:22:14,471 --> 00:22:15,190
ready to have kids.

611
00:22:16,959 --> 00:22:18,869
It it didn't really make sense. I mean,

612
00:22:19,188 --> 00:22:21,257
contrary to the stigma was attached to it.

613
00:22:21,735 --> 00:22:23,646
Pastors do not make money. Okay? We make

614
00:22:23,646 --> 00:22:25,961
a We we... We're vocational, a lot of

615
00:22:25,961 --> 00:22:28,498
us. We get paid to do our ministry,

616
00:22:28,815 --> 00:22:30,955
but it ain't didn't ain't that much. So

617
00:22:32,005 --> 00:22:33,285
we were looking at a paid cut. We

618
00:22:33,285 --> 00:22:35,445
were looking at, you know, worse insurance all

619
00:22:35,445 --> 00:22:35,845
that stuff.

620
00:22:36,565 --> 00:22:38,244
And I met with this church. I met

621
00:22:38,244 --> 00:22:40,005
with church leadership. There was a desire to

622
00:22:40,005 --> 00:22:40,984
bring me on

623
00:22:41,699 --> 00:22:43,214
in an administrative role that would be sort

624
00:22:43,214 --> 00:22:44,969
of an under study role to move into

625
00:22:44,969 --> 00:22:46,086
more of a pastor role.

626
00:22:46,963 --> 00:22:48,877
And when we join and I prayed about

627
00:22:48,877 --> 00:22:50,472
it for a couple years and finally said

628
00:22:50,472 --> 00:22:50,791
yes.

629
00:22:52,805 --> 00:22:54,505
A softball size

630
00:22:54,965 --> 00:22:57,224
growth was discovered in my wife's abdomen

631
00:22:57,525 --> 00:22:58,884
right after 1 of our kids was born.

632
00:22:59,445 --> 00:23:00,265
Our house

633
00:23:01,219 --> 00:23:02,038
that same,

634
00:23:02,973 --> 00:23:03,473
summer

635
00:23:03,851 --> 00:23:05,924
was falling into a coal mine. That was

636
00:23:05,924 --> 00:23:07,360
our first house we ever built. So bricks

637
00:23:07,360 --> 00:23:08,716
are falling away from the house. We couldn't

638
00:23:08,716 --> 00:23:09,195
open doors.

639
00:23:11,123 --> 00:23:11,623
And

640
00:23:13,030 --> 00:23:15,016
our our our it seems like everything tied

641
00:23:15,016 --> 00:23:15,834
to our livelihood

642
00:23:16,366 --> 00:23:17,558
was crumbling around us.

643
00:23:18,926 --> 00:23:20,359
We could not find the doctor that was

644
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:21,178
willing to

645
00:23:21,792 --> 00:23:22,589
operate on joy.

646
00:23:23,226 --> 00:23:24,659
We went to the best abdominal surgeon to

647
00:23:24,659 --> 00:23:26,093
wash you and they he's like I'm not

648
00:23:26,093 --> 00:23:26,491
touching this.

649
00:23:27,460 --> 00:23:28,732
And it was about a year long process

650
00:23:28,732 --> 00:23:30,004
of us being like, lord, you've called us

651
00:23:30,004 --> 00:23:32,707
in the ministry. We're stepping out, and it

652
00:23:32,707 --> 00:23:34,058
seems like everything's falling apart.

653
00:23:35,426 --> 00:23:37,895
And it was a matter... It it took

654
00:23:37,895 --> 00:23:38,714
about a year

655
00:23:39,169 --> 00:23:42,138
before the lord brought the right physicians in

656
00:23:42,196 --> 00:23:43,072
and he'll joy.

657
00:23:44,439 --> 00:23:45,711
It was over a year for us to

658
00:23:45,711 --> 00:23:47,857
get our house situation figured out. We're were

659
00:23:47,857 --> 00:23:48,596
able to

660
00:23:49,050 --> 00:23:51,117
sell it, take insurance money, get out of

661
00:23:51,117 --> 00:23:53,044
the what we call the crack house because

662
00:23:53,044 --> 00:23:53,920
it were cracks all over it.

663
00:23:56,152 --> 00:23:57,586
As a as a pastor when you write

664
00:23:57,586 --> 00:24:00,068
that book, the title from crack house to.

665
00:24:00,941 --> 00:24:01,441
From

666
00:24:01,972 --> 00:24:04,749
from Crack house Yeah. Yep. That's it. Good

667
00:24:04,749 --> 00:24:04,829
stuff.

668
00:24:05,860 --> 00:24:06,019
Yeah.

669
00:24:07,209 --> 00:24:07,709
So

670
00:24:08,419 --> 00:24:09,697
right when all that stuff started to get

671
00:24:09,697 --> 00:24:12,035
resolved, we've we said yes. We

672
00:24:13,452 --> 00:24:14,971
we notified the church that we were gonna

673
00:24:14,971 --> 00:24:16,741
come on staff. I was gonna start a

674
00:24:16,741 --> 00:24:18,972
sort of a coordination role with the idea

675
00:24:18,972 --> 00:24:21,465
of stepping into into greater pastor roll responsibilities.

676
00:24:22,081 --> 00:24:23,697
And the week that I

677
00:24:24,247 --> 00:24:25,521
said yes, to that church.

678
00:24:26,237 --> 00:24:27,294
I was promoted

679
00:24:27,670 --> 00:24:30,137
to director of design services at Network solutions.

680
00:24:30,455 --> 00:24:31,171
Oh, wow.

681
00:24:32,065 --> 00:24:34,144
And here we are again. The lord just

682
00:24:34,144 --> 00:24:35,424
like, wave after wave,

683
00:24:36,065 --> 00:24:38,065
being like, you sure about this? You sure

684
00:24:38,065 --> 00:24:38,384
about this.

685
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:40,660
And

686
00:24:41,599 --> 00:24:42,960
we were sure about it. I didn't wanna

687
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:44,559
bang the Hollow drum of the corporate world

688
00:24:44,559 --> 00:24:46,720
anymore. I wanted to go into ministry. So

689
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,128
yeah. I said yes to the position because

690
00:24:49,208 --> 00:24:50,404
I wasn't ready to put in my 2

691
00:24:50,404 --> 00:24:52,477
weeks and a couple months later, we we

692
00:24:52,477 --> 00:24:54,869
stepped away and and launched in the, and

693
00:24:54,869 --> 00:24:56,639
we've been doing it ever since. Yeah. Yeah.

694
00:24:56,799 --> 00:24:58,477
That the the that those are awesome stories.

695
00:24:58,637 --> 00:25:00,315
And I don't think maybe you don't realize

696
00:25:00,315 --> 00:25:00,875
just how

697
00:25:02,153 --> 00:25:03,752
how much we... At least me is a

698
00:25:03,912 --> 00:25:06,163
Latter day saint. How much I appreciate those

699
00:25:06,163 --> 00:25:07,596
type of stories because in our faith with

700
00:25:07,596 --> 00:25:09,826
the Lame ministry, you know, if somebody feel...

701
00:25:09,986 --> 00:25:11,659
If somebody shows up to church on Sunday,

702
00:25:12,057 --> 00:25:13,889
and it mentions someone, you, wow. I just

703
00:25:13,889 --> 00:25:15,179
feel the lord on my heart. I like

704
00:25:15,259 --> 00:25:17,177
I'm being called it to to be the

705
00:25:17,177 --> 00:25:19,015
next bishop of this ward. They would look

706
00:25:19,015 --> 00:25:19,654
at you like,

707
00:25:20,293 --> 00:25:22,051
dude. Like, you gotta pump the brakes. Like,

708
00:25:22,211 --> 00:25:24,304
what gives you the rides do those things

709
00:25:24,304 --> 00:25:25,742
that it seems might be upside down or

710
00:25:25,742 --> 00:25:27,979
backwards when you compare those things. And and

711
00:25:27,979 --> 00:25:29,977
this is part of our, culture, I'm I'm

712
00:25:29,977 --> 00:25:32,149
hoping to to help shift where you know,

713
00:25:32,309 --> 00:25:34,147
because as we read Timothy. Like, if you

714
00:25:34,147 --> 00:25:35,905
desire the office of a bishop, you desire

715
00:25:35,905 --> 00:25:37,823
good work, you know? And and and I

716
00:25:37,823 --> 00:25:39,421
want people to feel like, yeah, You have

717
00:25:39,421 --> 00:25:41,114
purpose here. Like God's calling you into this,

718
00:25:41,194 --> 00:25:43,911
and sometimes we get overly formalized with our...

719
00:25:44,070 --> 00:25:45,828
Well, you know, well, we're gonna ask you

720
00:25:45,828 --> 00:25:47,746
to just teach sunday school and just don't,

721
00:25:47,826 --> 00:25:49,319
you know, just do that for now. We're

722
00:25:49,439 --> 00:25:51,766
where there's maybe more potential to really

723
00:25:52,220 --> 00:25:55,342
allow people to feel a calling in their

724
00:25:55,477 --> 00:25:56,216
in their

725
00:25:56,828 --> 00:25:58,353
congregation and and lean into that. See what

726
00:25:58,353 --> 00:25:59,867
the lord has for them, and and these

727
00:25:59,867 --> 00:26:02,417
stories are just example of example of how

728
00:26:02,417 --> 00:26:04,170
that can bless your life even when that

729
00:26:04,170 --> 00:26:06,177
opposition comes. So it's really really powerful.

730
00:26:07,055 --> 00:26:09,048
So I'm curious know, like, what... How would

731
00:26:09,048 --> 00:26:09,867
you explain

732
00:26:10,404 --> 00:26:12,797
your your typical week as a pastor? Because,

733
00:26:13,036 --> 00:26:15,131
obviously, this is your your full time focus

734
00:26:15,999 --> 00:26:17,905
And so, I mean, how would you summarize

735
00:26:17,905 --> 00:26:19,573
a a typical week in the life of

736
00:26:19,573 --> 00:26:21,162
you as a pastor? So,

737
00:26:22,512 --> 00:26:23,783
Monday's is is my

738
00:26:24,419 --> 00:26:26,824
dev rest my day off and and so

739
00:26:26,824 --> 00:26:28,499
that's at home with family.

740
00:26:29,775 --> 00:26:31,450
And then the the rest of the day

741
00:26:31,450 --> 00:26:33,285
are pretty much broken up, and the but...

742
00:26:33,604 --> 00:26:36,352
The first part of today I am either

743
00:26:36,490 --> 00:26:39,123
sermon prepping or doing some sort of strategic

744
00:26:39,123 --> 00:26:41,277
work of sometime time in the in the

745
00:26:41,277 --> 00:26:41,777
afternoons

746
00:26:42,489 --> 00:26:44,406
their meetings. So their meetings with, you know,

747
00:26:44,646 --> 00:26:47,043
advisor team, staff meetings, 1 0 one's,

748
00:26:48,481 --> 00:26:49,280
counseling meetings.

749
00:26:50,566 --> 00:26:51,304
And then

750
00:26:52,868 --> 00:26:55,170
outside of what we call community group, I

751
00:26:55,170 --> 00:26:57,257
don't have regular evening

752
00:26:57,631 --> 00:26:58,107
requirements.

753
00:26:59,313 --> 00:27:01,298
Outside of Computer group and then,

754
00:27:01,933 --> 00:27:03,918
counseling here and there, but they're they're they're

755
00:27:03,918 --> 00:27:04,554
not standing.

756
00:27:05,745 --> 00:27:08,149
And then Saturday morning some finals from my

757
00:27:08,149 --> 00:27:10,303
prep, and then sunday morning and some a

758
00:27:10,303 --> 00:27:11,499
little bit more on my prep, and then

759
00:27:11,579 --> 00:27:13,812
I'm preaching, and then I'm done, and I'm

760
00:27:13,812 --> 00:27:15,168
eating Chinese. That's my.

761
00:27:17,256 --> 00:27:19,009
And and I just wanna point something out

762
00:27:19,009 --> 00:27:19,509
to

763
00:27:20,522 --> 00:27:23,525
that the the whole concept here of

764
00:27:24,437 --> 00:27:26,580
that that Monday being a day off or

765
00:27:26,659 --> 00:27:28,270
Friday being a day. If that's pretty common

766
00:27:28,881 --> 00:27:30,786
for pastors for people who are likely to

767
00:27:30,786 --> 00:27:31,738
be saying who might not know that.

768
00:27:32,628 --> 00:27:34,780
Because Sundays are... They're they're draining for us.

769
00:27:35,019 --> 00:27:37,171
And also, lot of these saints might not

770
00:27:37,171 --> 00:27:39,802
know this whole concept of community groups or

771
00:27:39,802 --> 00:27:40,121
home groups,

772
00:27:40,932 --> 00:27:42,762
it's something that... Probably over the last 20,

773
00:27:42,921 --> 00:27:44,989
25 years has really taken root, and it's...

774
00:27:45,387 --> 00:27:47,239
You you probably are hard pressed to finding

775
00:27:47,708 --> 00:27:49,534
a prada church that doesn't have some form

776
00:27:49,534 --> 00:27:51,200
of home groups where... Yeah. We go to

777
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:52,471
church with each other on Sundays.

778
00:27:53,026 --> 00:27:54,614
But then, you know, either once a week

779
00:27:54,614 --> 00:27:55,963
once every couple of weeks, maybe once a

780
00:27:55,963 --> 00:27:57,971
month, you're assigned to a a home group

781
00:27:57,971 --> 00:27:59,568
or community where you meet each other's homes.

782
00:28:00,126 --> 00:28:01,324
You have a meal. You might do a

783
00:28:01,324 --> 00:28:02,521
bible study. You might have a prayer time.

784
00:28:02,681 --> 00:28:04,916
You might, Don't know, play washers out back.

785
00:28:05,155 --> 00:28:07,002
But it's just the time to to get

786
00:28:07,002 --> 00:28:08,355
people together. So... Yep. Yep.

787
00:28:09,151 --> 00:28:11,698
I I think maybe Kyle mentioned something alluded

788
00:28:11,698 --> 00:28:12,812
to this. As far as that,

789
00:28:13,608 --> 00:28:15,302
you know, I... Obviously, there's some

790
00:28:15,694 --> 00:28:17,450
there's some pluses and minuses of being a

791
00:28:17,450 --> 00:28:20,403
pastor and the livelihood and and the demands

792
00:28:20,403 --> 00:28:22,000
you have and, you know, the burnout that

793
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:23,596
comes from these things. Like I remember feeling

794
00:28:23,596 --> 00:28:25,287
that as a bishop, But at least I

795
00:28:25,287 --> 00:28:27,682
knew that there was a sunset to this

796
00:28:27,682 --> 00:28:29,996
calling. You know, it was generally A56 year

797
00:28:29,996 --> 00:28:31,751
thing, and I knew that, Right, you know,

798
00:28:31,911 --> 00:28:33,363
there was life after this type of thing.

799
00:28:33,523 --> 00:28:34,161
And and I...

800
00:28:35,039 --> 00:28:36,476
I'm just curious as far as not only

801
00:28:36,476 --> 00:28:39,132
the burnout dynamic, but also the... Sometimes the

802
00:28:39,271 --> 00:28:41,905
validation that can coax people into these roles

803
00:28:41,905 --> 00:28:45,276
that maybe they're mis mis misinterpreted that validation

804
00:28:45,276 --> 00:28:47,114
for a calling for as a calling from

805
00:28:47,193 --> 00:28:49,271
God I mean, what... And what thoughts coming

806
00:28:49,271 --> 00:28:50,330
to mind as far as

807
00:28:51,832 --> 00:28:54,449
reconciling that that validation that comes as being

808
00:28:54,449 --> 00:28:56,194
the lead pastor or the guy on the

809
00:28:56,194 --> 00:28:57,542
stage on on Sundays.

810
00:28:58,589 --> 00:28:59,710
I'm gonna let 1 of these other guys

811
00:28:59,710 --> 00:29:01,150
sit talk more than me, but I... I'm

812
00:29:01,150 --> 00:29:02,190
just gonna say right off the bat.

813
00:29:02,990 --> 00:29:03,490
Burnout

814
00:29:03,950 --> 00:29:07,089
is a real thing. It is a problem

815
00:29:07,563 --> 00:29:10,028
with pretty much every pastor. I mean, it's

816
00:29:10,028 --> 00:29:11,460
it's it's a it's an issue. It's a

817
00:29:11,460 --> 00:29:12,733
it's a problem. And every guy on this

818
00:29:12,733 --> 00:29:13,449
call, I guarantee,

819
00:29:13,926 --> 00:29:15,358
we've reached points where we're like, I got

820
00:29:15,358 --> 00:29:17,758
nothing left. There's nothing left in me. And

821
00:29:17,758 --> 00:29:19,744
the demands that are on us from so

822
00:29:19,744 --> 00:29:20,482
many different

823
00:29:21,651 --> 00:29:24,591
directions, people's personal situations running the corporate side

824
00:29:24,591 --> 00:29:27,319
of church, preaching sermon every week, making sure

825
00:29:27,319 --> 00:29:29,155
that, you know, you're pressing forward, keeping people...

826
00:29:29,394 --> 00:29:31,651
I mean, it's running a family. Like, it's

827
00:29:31,789 --> 00:29:33,306
it's quite a bit. It's and it's it's

828
00:29:33,306 --> 00:29:33,806
a

829
00:29:34,516 --> 00:29:35,732
a pretty serious

830
00:29:37,539 --> 00:29:38,039
m

831
00:29:38,414 --> 00:29:40,403
for anybody that that serves in a pastor

832
00:29:40,403 --> 00:29:42,649
role. Yeah. We we have a phrase around

833
00:29:42,649 --> 00:29:45,202
this. It's called Sunday is always coming.

834
00:29:46,159 --> 00:29:48,073
You know, as as soon as you... And

835
00:29:48,153 --> 00:29:50,806
I think there's a there's an extra level

836
00:29:51,516 --> 00:29:54,638
when you are coming up with the talks

837
00:29:54,853 --> 00:29:57,396
from scratch, You know, like, you're you're you're

838
00:29:57,396 --> 00:29:58,325
coming up with

839
00:29:58,840 --> 00:29:59,078
these,

840
00:30:00,268 --> 00:30:02,965
these sermon or messages as we call them.

841
00:30:04,313 --> 00:30:06,950
There's an extra level of pressure because you

842
00:30:06,950 --> 00:30:08,070
get out you get out of,

843
00:30:09,029 --> 00:30:11,349
service on a Sunday, and then Sunday night

844
00:30:11,349 --> 00:30:12,710
kinda hits and you're, like,

845
00:30:13,990 --> 00:30:14,230
alright?

846
00:30:15,603 --> 00:30:16,557
Sunday's coming again.

847
00:30:18,147 --> 00:30:20,794
I gotta re up. It it's that feeling

848
00:30:20,930 --> 00:30:22,679
that you had in college where it's like,

849
00:30:23,886 --> 00:30:24,839
Okay. This is

850
00:30:25,633 --> 00:30:28,491
you know, another 10 page paper. Gotta I

851
00:30:28,491 --> 00:30:30,634
gotta come up with... It I got a

852
00:30:30,634 --> 00:30:32,478
study I got I got... You know, and

853
00:30:32,558 --> 00:30:35,184
Got... I got I gotta do the passage

854
00:30:35,184 --> 00:30:36,617
of scripture justice.

855
00:30:37,094 --> 00:30:38,549
You know, we firmly

856
00:30:39,179 --> 00:30:41,509
hold to this at that we wanna rightly

857
00:30:41,566 --> 00:30:44,431
handle the word of truth as Paul instruct

858
00:30:44,590 --> 00:30:45,068
Timothy.

859
00:30:45,705 --> 00:30:46,205
And

860
00:30:46,993 --> 00:30:49,460
and that that carries weight with it. But

861
00:30:49,460 --> 00:30:51,688
then you don't wanna get out there and

862
00:30:51,688 --> 00:30:53,836
bore everybody for 35 minutes.

863
00:30:55,125 --> 00:30:56,421
So being interesting

864
00:30:56,797 --> 00:30:58,788
carries a lot of weight weight to it.

865
00:30:59,664 --> 00:31:00,699
And they knowing,

866
00:31:01,256 --> 00:31:03,340
like, what season you're in, are we gonna

867
00:31:03,340 --> 00:31:05,167
go through a book of the bible? Are

868
00:31:05,167 --> 00:31:07,471
we gonna do a topical series? Are we

869
00:31:07,471 --> 00:31:09,220
gonna, you know, try to try to be

870
00:31:09,220 --> 00:31:09,720
very?

871
00:31:10,332 --> 00:31:13,124
Or is there you know, marriages that need

872
00:31:13,124 --> 00:31:15,843
help in the congregation. How do we assess

873
00:31:16,294 --> 00:31:18,592
what needs to be taught from God's word?

874
00:31:19,164 --> 00:31:21,662
That carries another level of weight to it

875
00:31:21,882 --> 00:31:23,160
as well And so you're, like,

876
00:31:24,279 --> 00:31:24,599
you know,

877
00:31:25,398 --> 00:31:28,115
it it... Once what's interesting to me is

878
00:31:28,115 --> 00:31:28,569
as

879
00:31:29,246 --> 00:31:31,393
being being a lead costume that that's only

880
00:31:31,393 --> 00:31:32,905
been true for me for a little while,

881
00:31:34,019 --> 00:31:35,848
7, 8 months now where I'm carrying more

882
00:31:35,848 --> 00:31:37,121
of the weight of preaching.

883
00:31:39,292 --> 00:31:39,792
That

884
00:31:40,651 --> 00:31:41,769
that whole role,

885
00:31:43,288 --> 00:31:45,765
there's very few people who can speak into.

886
00:31:46,339 --> 00:31:49,131
Like what you're going through. You... Unless you

887
00:31:49,131 --> 00:31:52,161
walk through that and and carry that yourself.

888
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:54,315
You don't have a lot of people around

889
00:31:54,315 --> 00:31:57,303
you. I can't run to you know, someone

890
00:31:58,001 --> 00:32:00,635
who's in youth ministry, or kids ministry or

891
00:32:00,635 --> 00:32:03,190
our welcome team and say, hey, you... Are

892
00:32:03,190 --> 00:32:04,946
you feeling this? Because They're gonna, no. I'm

893
00:32:04,946 --> 00:32:05,745
not feeling that.

894
00:32:06,713 --> 00:32:08,221
But, you know, that's where it's, like,

895
00:32:08,935 --> 00:32:10,839
it's like, really important. Like, I... I've got

896
00:32:10,839 --> 00:32:14,092
a an an unbelievable open door with Jeff.

897
00:32:14,504 --> 00:32:16,103
To just go and, hey, man.

898
00:32:16,981 --> 00:32:18,979
I'm wrestling with some stuff. I'm not feeling

899
00:32:18,979 --> 00:32:21,537
it today. And he goes, I get it.

900
00:32:21,776 --> 00:32:24,185
He actually does get it. It's hard to

901
00:32:24,185 --> 00:32:26,730
get that from anybody else I imagine bishop

902
00:32:26,730 --> 00:32:29,276
are in the same same boat. Like, if

903
00:32:29,276 --> 00:32:30,151
you've never been a bishop,

904
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,507
you know what that other bishop is is

905
00:32:33,507 --> 00:32:36,053
going through the weight of running the family.

906
00:32:36,451 --> 00:32:37,406
Well, that's the other way.

907
00:32:38,057 --> 00:32:40,284
Is, like, if your family, you know, your

908
00:32:40,284 --> 00:32:42,828
kids aren't doing well or or you have

909
00:32:42,828 --> 00:32:45,134
any sort of strain... I mean from time

910
00:32:45,134 --> 00:32:47,138
to time, we even those of us who

911
00:32:47,138 --> 00:32:49,605
have really good solid mirrors, we get strain

912
00:32:49,605 --> 00:32:51,435
with our spouse, and then you gotta get

913
00:32:51,435 --> 00:32:53,504
up and preach. It's like,

914
00:32:55,509 --> 00:32:56,705
how do you... How do you do that?

915
00:32:57,024 --> 00:32:58,539
Yeah. I think all of those things are

916
00:32:58,539 --> 00:33:00,372
the weights that kinda a lead to burnout

917
00:33:00,372 --> 00:33:00,872
out

918
00:33:01,409 --> 00:33:03,003
over the course of time that I know

919
00:33:03,083 --> 00:33:03,800
I've experienced.

920
00:33:04,374 --> 00:33:06,447
And echo everything that Nate said,

921
00:33:07,165 --> 00:33:10,196
I would add 2, like, relationship dynamics within

922
00:33:10,196 --> 00:33:11,574
the church. So

923
00:33:12,429 --> 00:33:14,079
the church is filled with a lot of

924
00:33:14,278 --> 00:33:15,176
hurt people

925
00:33:16,506 --> 00:33:17,006
that

926
00:33:17,937 --> 00:33:20,006
they might not even be believers in the

927
00:33:20,006 --> 00:33:20,642
gospel yet.

928
00:33:21,693 --> 00:33:23,609
So you you navigate that. There are a

929
00:33:23,609 --> 00:33:25,205
lot of people that have been burned out

930
00:33:25,205 --> 00:33:26,323
by church themselves,

931
00:33:27,121 --> 00:33:29,537
and they're they're seeking respite. There are people

932
00:33:30,169 --> 00:33:32,160
that, you said at the prestige of being

933
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:33,991
the pastor. Right? This is just a reality

934
00:33:33,991 --> 00:33:35,664
of ministry. There are people in the church

935
00:33:35,664 --> 00:33:38,133
that intentionally Are trying to manipulate you for

936
00:33:38,133 --> 00:33:40,055
some kind of for some kind of gain.

937
00:33:41,166 --> 00:33:43,071
And then once you kinda sense that, it's

938
00:33:43,071 --> 00:33:45,769
really difficult to continue to minister to them

939
00:33:45,769 --> 00:33:47,356
because you feel a little bit of resentment.

940
00:33:48,723 --> 00:33:50,791
Add all that, so what Nate said, plus

941
00:33:50,791 --> 00:33:53,893
the the relationship dynamics plus like the emotional

942
00:33:53,893 --> 00:33:54,132
drain.

943
00:33:54,704 --> 00:33:57,018
Of ministry. Right? So on the outside, it

944
00:33:57,018 --> 00:33:58,693
looks like pastors just work for 2 and

945
00:33:58,693 --> 00:33:59,810
a half hours on Sunday.

946
00:34:00,768 --> 00:34:01,566
That absolutely.

947
00:34:02,218 --> 00:34:04,127
That's not true. Right? So I had 1

948
00:34:04,127 --> 00:34:07,071
1 particularly difficult week where I did the

949
00:34:07,071 --> 00:34:10,014
funeral for, a child who was a drowning

950
00:34:10,014 --> 00:34:10,333
victim.

951
00:34:11,380 --> 00:34:14,476
And then I did marriage counseling for, couple

952
00:34:14,476 --> 00:34:16,858
that was on the pre of divorce.

953
00:34:18,048 --> 00:34:19,397
And then I have my own family,

954
00:34:20,449 --> 00:34:22,449
to care for. And then you have to

955
00:34:22,449 --> 00:34:24,150
get up on Sunday and preach to

956
00:34:24,449 --> 00:34:26,449
to this to to these people. Right?

957
00:34:27,501 --> 00:34:29,649
So it's it's all... It's it's a pressure

958
00:34:29,649 --> 00:34:30,149
cooker

959
00:34:30,524 --> 00:34:33,228
that it's really difficult to understand until you're

960
00:34:33,228 --> 00:34:33,467
in it.

961
00:34:34,518 --> 00:34:37,949
But the pressure is relieved through kind of

962
00:34:37,949 --> 00:34:40,922
what Nate just alluded to. Like, real godly

963
00:34:41,875 --> 00:34:42,375
fellowship

964
00:34:42,994 --> 00:34:45,155
with people that have been through it or

965
00:34:45,155 --> 00:34:46,675
people that are going through it with you.

966
00:34:47,155 --> 00:34:48,994
Like, I... The the church that I passed

967
00:34:48,994 --> 00:34:50,889
her has a wonderful staff that

968
00:34:51,489 --> 00:34:53,166
parent practically, any any of them I could

969
00:34:53,166 --> 00:34:55,323
walk into their office and and just unload

970
00:34:55,323 --> 00:34:57,980
and say, like, let please sit with me

971
00:34:58,374 --> 00:35:00,450
in this for a minute. And, like, I

972
00:35:00,450 --> 00:35:02,605
need a pastor for a second. Right? And

973
00:35:02,605 --> 00:35:05,479
vice versa, it's such, you know, I have

974
00:35:05,479 --> 00:35:07,155
2 doors in my office, and both of

975
00:35:07,155 --> 00:35:08,999
them are that's my open door policy. It's

976
00:35:08,999 --> 00:35:11,778
super. Right? 2 2 open doors. Anyone can

977
00:35:11,778 --> 00:35:13,288
come in and and kind of, like, d

978
00:35:13,288 --> 00:35:15,353
decompress and process through through that kind of

979
00:35:15,353 --> 00:35:15,512
stuff.

980
00:35:16,564 --> 00:35:18,722
And that's what keeps me going. I I

981
00:35:18,722 --> 00:35:20,320
promise I would have burned out years ago.

982
00:35:20,559 --> 00:35:21,779
If it wasn't for

983
00:35:22,158 --> 00:35:24,635
the the fellowship that I have with other

984
00:35:24,635 --> 00:35:25,355
leaders in the church.

985
00:35:27,518 --> 00:35:30,007
Anything about as far as sort of on

986
00:35:30,063 --> 00:35:31,972
another side of that. Just as far as

987
00:35:31,972 --> 00:35:32,211
that,

988
00:35:32,942 --> 00:35:35,250
being the the main guy, you know, at

989
00:35:35,250 --> 00:35:37,717
the church and the validation, the glory and

990
00:35:37,717 --> 00:35:39,467
make sure we're we're, you know,

991
00:35:40,199 --> 00:35:42,516
pointing that towards the source of of glory.

992
00:35:43,556 --> 00:35:45,473
And anything as far as making sure that

993
00:35:45,793 --> 00:35:47,471
you know, get drunk on that validation?

994
00:35:49,959 --> 00:35:51,154
Yeah. You know, I think,

995
00:35:52,986 --> 00:35:53,225
oh,

996
00:35:54,101 --> 00:35:55,853
I would say for for me,

997
00:35:56,491 --> 00:35:57,900
you know, I've seen this

998
00:35:58,575 --> 00:35:59,552
acutely close

999
00:36:00,165 --> 00:36:02,811
in so many levels. And so I think

1000
00:36:03,106 --> 00:36:05,332
I think it's good when you are in

1001
00:36:05,332 --> 00:36:07,081
any kind of leadership floats role.

1002
00:36:07,972 --> 00:36:10,121
To stay sober about that reality,

1003
00:36:11,077 --> 00:36:11,975
to to

1004
00:36:12,988 --> 00:36:14,978
to be reminded that, like you said, like,

1005
00:36:15,138 --> 00:36:15,829
that that

1006
00:36:16,829 --> 00:36:18,849
burnout out and not just burnout out, but

1007
00:36:18,989 --> 00:36:20,989
all the... There's a lot of things that

1008
00:36:20,989 --> 00:36:21,869
can come through that.

1009
00:36:23,150 --> 00:36:26,034
And that's the That's that's all... That's always

1010
00:36:26,034 --> 00:36:27,864
a half a step away if I'm not

1011
00:36:27,864 --> 00:36:30,250
walking with Jesus to... This just be a

1012
00:36:30,250 --> 00:36:30,886
flat out on this.

1013
00:36:32,012 --> 00:36:34,152
That's that's not... I'm not talking miles away.

1014
00:36:34,311 --> 00:36:36,689
I'm I'm talking. It's a it's a it's

1015
00:36:36,689 --> 00:36:37,482
a half a step.

1016
00:36:39,084 --> 00:36:42,201
And and so remaining sober about that reality,

1017
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:44,539
engaging in deep

1018
00:36:44,998 --> 00:36:46,915
relationship. And like I said,

1019
00:36:47,809 --> 00:36:49,026
I think I think

1020
00:36:50,359 --> 00:36:53,468
walking with Jesus, the way Jesus walks. Right?

1021
00:36:53,707 --> 00:36:55,163
I think... And not to overly

1022
00:36:56,272 --> 00:36:58,182
simplify because it's actually not simple at all,

1023
00:36:58,422 --> 00:36:58,740
but,

1024
00:36:59,695 --> 00:37:01,288
it's... I I think it's okay to be

1025
00:37:01,288 --> 00:37:03,380
a creature. Right? And I say those words

1026
00:37:03,438 --> 00:37:06,005
intentionally like, I think think we can get

1027
00:37:06,005 --> 00:37:07,281
intoxicated with ourselves.

1028
00:37:08,638 --> 00:37:11,191
And and I think it's... It... We can

1029
00:37:11,191 --> 00:37:11,691
become

1030
00:37:12,242 --> 00:37:13,356
messiah is in our own mind,

1031
00:37:14,391 --> 00:37:17,097
and we believe we'll never verbally say this,

1032
00:37:17,177 --> 00:37:19,246
but we believe we are beyond creature,

1033
00:37:19,659 --> 00:37:21,036
and we become creator.

1034
00:37:21,414 --> 00:37:24,285
And I think remaining as creature, someone who

1035
00:37:24,285 --> 00:37:25,321
is dependent.

1036
00:37:26,438 --> 00:37:29,045
Someone whose value is from someone else

1037
00:37:29,403 --> 00:37:32,612
someone who's energy and ability and wisdom is

1038
00:37:32,988 --> 00:37:36,573
from someone else that then make means, I

1039
00:37:36,573 --> 00:37:39,319
gotta stay connected with whoever that's from

1040
00:37:39,774 --> 00:37:41,924
and and walk in the rhythms and ways

1041
00:37:41,924 --> 00:37:43,994
that that that bear fruit in my own

1042
00:37:43,994 --> 00:37:45,904
soul. And so so there's a lot I

1043
00:37:45,904 --> 00:37:47,352
can say that. But... You those are the

1044
00:37:47,352 --> 00:37:49,100
things that I would say, like, as you're

1045
00:37:49,100 --> 00:37:51,485
wrestling with validation. That's a real wrestler. And

1046
00:37:51,485 --> 00:37:54,130
let's be clear, every human being wants that

1047
00:37:54,266 --> 00:37:56,840
validation. Every human being wants to be celebrated.

1048
00:37:57,079 --> 00:38:00,039
Like every human being does. So the question

1049
00:38:00,039 --> 00:38:00,539
isn't

1050
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:02,655
whether you like it or wanna it it

1051
00:38:02,854 --> 00:38:05,751
your... You do. Now what will you do

1052
00:38:05,971 --> 00:38:08,767
to guard your soul from being drunk in

1053
00:38:08,767 --> 00:38:11,259
that desire? Like, what will you do to

1054
00:38:11,259 --> 00:38:14,132
put things in your life and then to

1055
00:38:14,132 --> 00:38:15,808
not, like, nothing I think many leaders do

1056
00:38:15,808 --> 00:38:16,926
they lie to themselves,

1057
00:38:17,884 --> 00:38:20,054
and it's easy to do so. So I

1058
00:38:20,054 --> 00:38:21,750
just think those are things that are helpful

1059
00:38:21,808 --> 00:38:24,381
as you are walking with the weight of

1060
00:38:24,679 --> 00:38:26,135
leadership in any capacity

1061
00:38:26,752 --> 00:38:28,745
that can guard your soul in your life.

1062
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:29,480
Yeah.

1063
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:30,760
Awesome.

1064
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:32,679
Any other the thoughts around that topic because...

1065
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:34,679
Yeah. Real real quick. I would say, I

1066
00:38:34,679 --> 00:38:36,679
think it's important to build a culture to

1067
00:38:36,679 --> 00:38:37,179
where

1068
00:38:37,974 --> 00:38:39,410
the number 1 guy in your church's is

1069
00:38:39,569 --> 00:38:41,882
Jesus, and it's and it's not yet. And

1070
00:38:41,882 --> 00:38:44,275
and and that starts with you. It starts

1071
00:38:44,275 --> 00:38:45,791
with then it starts with the little the

1072
00:38:45,791 --> 00:38:47,840
little subtle things too you. Right? So

1073
00:38:48,277 --> 00:38:50,606
you know, people people tell me

1074
00:38:51,537 --> 00:38:53,843
every single Sunday, whether or not they're good

1075
00:38:53,923 --> 00:38:55,513
Sermon. I don't know. But they'll come up

1076
00:38:55,513 --> 00:38:56,706
to me and So like, that was a

1077
00:38:56,706 --> 00:38:57,422
really good word.

1078
00:38:58,074 --> 00:39:00,070
Really great sermon pastor, and I'm like, praise

1079
00:39:00,150 --> 00:39:02,385
God. Praise God. Like, that I'm I'm glad

1080
00:39:02,385 --> 00:39:04,859
that that God used me a broken vessel

1081
00:39:04,859 --> 00:39:05,817
to communicate to you.

1082
00:39:07,268 --> 00:39:08,778
But there's a there's a danger in swing

1083
00:39:08,778 --> 00:39:10,527
that pendulum too far the other way. Right?

1084
00:39:11,242 --> 00:39:13,228
And you do need encouragement. And so what

1085
00:39:13,387 --> 00:39:14,992
I... What I've done, is

1086
00:39:15,866 --> 00:39:18,671
over the years, I I collect the

1087
00:39:19,046 --> 00:39:20,636
the... I call them, like, the greatest hits

1088
00:39:20,636 --> 00:39:21,431
of encouragement.

1089
00:39:22,559 --> 00:39:24,557
So these are handwritten notes or cards or

1090
00:39:24,557 --> 00:39:26,235
things like that from people in the church,

1091
00:39:26,875 --> 00:39:28,633
and and this is part of what keeps

1092
00:39:28,633 --> 00:39:30,391
me going. Right? When I'm when I'm down,

1093
00:39:30,471 --> 00:39:32,400
and I need encouragement, I'll go back and

1094
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,704
like, Kyle is almost a decade worth of

1095
00:39:34,704 --> 00:39:37,246
of encouragement. Read read how the lord used

1096
00:39:37,246 --> 00:39:37,485
you.

1097
00:39:38,597 --> 00:39:40,202
And then and then it fills me back

1098
00:39:40,202 --> 00:39:42,031
up, and it's a really humbling experience of,

1099
00:39:42,110 --> 00:39:43,224
like, well, if you use me in the

1100
00:39:43,224 --> 00:39:45,052
past 10 years, maybe he'll continue to use

1101
00:39:45,052 --> 00:39:45,848
me for another 10.

1102
00:39:47,853 --> 00:39:50,166
Yeah. That's great. I that's great. Yeah. I

1103
00:39:50,166 --> 00:39:51,761
think I would just speak to

1104
00:39:53,117 --> 00:39:55,190
what Kyle was saying there about culture.

1105
00:39:57,437 --> 00:39:59,978
The culture is is what in what I'm

1106
00:39:59,978 --> 00:40:02,597
learning. There's language around this of if we

1107
00:40:02,597 --> 00:40:03,550
create a soil,

1108
00:40:05,153 --> 00:40:06,762
which allows humility

1109
00:40:07,134 --> 00:40:07,634
and

1110
00:40:09,195 --> 00:40:12,152
enjoy and delight to sprout or it allows

1111
00:40:12,858 --> 00:40:15,728
kinda some selfish dark links to sprout depending

1112
00:40:15,728 --> 00:40:16,445
on the soil.

1113
00:40:17,322 --> 00:40:17,800
And

1114
00:40:19,235 --> 00:40:21,958
that's very... That's very much a role that,

1115
00:40:22,435 --> 00:40:24,445
a lead pastor has to take

1116
00:40:25,137 --> 00:40:27,601
with the other leaders around him. That's a

1117
00:40:27,601 --> 00:40:28,498
discussion that

1118
00:40:28,808 --> 00:40:30,499
that I'm in with my board

1119
00:40:30,952 --> 00:40:31,904
right now of, like,

1120
00:40:32,539 --> 00:40:35,476
how do we create that proper soil in

1121
00:40:35,476 --> 00:40:35,976
order

1122
00:40:36,844 --> 00:40:39,078
to not allow the dark things to rise

1123
00:40:39,078 --> 00:40:40,775
whether it's ego

1124
00:40:41,233 --> 00:40:42,371
or or

1125
00:40:42,748 --> 00:40:44,025
na ism or whatever,

1126
00:40:44,518 --> 00:40:46,907
and and let's be let's be real. It's

1127
00:40:46,907 --> 00:40:49,476
a big problem. That's 1 of the the

1128
00:40:49,534 --> 00:40:51,205
epidemics in the evangelical church.

1129
00:40:53,054 --> 00:40:55,795
We have... We have had our fair share

1130
00:40:56,174 --> 00:40:57,074
of narcissistic

1131
00:40:57,375 --> 00:40:58,434
leaders rise

1132
00:40:58,815 --> 00:40:59,375
and fall.

1133
00:41:00,506 --> 00:41:04,170
And and it it happens in very big

1134
00:41:04,170 --> 00:41:06,640
churches and it happens in very small churches,

1135
00:41:07,197 --> 00:41:08,733
and it and it's an incredibly

1136
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:12,493
sad and destructive thing and and

1137
00:41:13,666 --> 00:41:15,101
you know, as a pastor, I think,

1138
00:41:16,869 --> 00:41:19,280
in this climate when we've seen that happen

1139
00:41:19,815 --> 00:41:21,270
a fair amount recently.

1140
00:41:21,964 --> 00:41:23,738
We we just gotta to be real careful

1141
00:41:23,796 --> 00:41:24,534
about how

1142
00:41:26,043 --> 00:41:28,438
we look inward, and we'd be real honest

1143
00:41:28,438 --> 00:41:30,215
with their own stuff. Yeah

1144
00:41:30,832 --> 00:41:33,408
And then there's there's safe people to let

1145
00:41:33,467 --> 00:41:34,185
let in on that.

1146
00:41:35,076 --> 00:41:37,008
And and making sure that that

1147
00:41:37,383 --> 00:41:40,008
that we're not setting ourself up as as

1148
00:41:40,008 --> 00:41:40,963
something that we're not.

1149
00:41:42,409 --> 00:41:44,955
Which which can be super tempting to do.

1150
00:41:45,193 --> 00:41:46,864
Yeah. And and, I'll just add to that.

1151
00:41:47,023 --> 00:41:49,267
The thing is that, I'm I don't know

1152
00:41:49,267 --> 00:41:50,623
as much about with Kyle, but I I've

1153
00:41:50,623 --> 00:41:52,298
got a guess just from a statistical standpoint,

1154
00:41:52,458 --> 00:41:54,611
but I know for a fact that nate,

1155
00:41:55,170 --> 00:41:56,765
and I know for a fact that Curtis,

1156
00:41:57,243 --> 00:41:58,774
and I know for a fact me. We

1157
00:41:58,774 --> 00:42:01,406
haven't tied to multiple people who have functioned

1158
00:42:01,406 --> 00:42:03,501
in ministry who have had very

1159
00:42:03,958 --> 00:42:04,458
serious.

1160
00:42:05,394 --> 00:42:07,547
In whatever capacity whether be moral failure whether

1161
00:42:07,547 --> 00:42:09,392
it it'd be mental health you, whether it

1162
00:42:09,392 --> 00:42:11,059
be, you know, family blow out or stuff

1163
00:42:11,059 --> 00:42:12,353
like that. Yep. So

1164
00:42:13,917 --> 00:42:15,131
a healthy pastor

1165
00:42:15,504 --> 00:42:17,171
is not a pastor who has it altogether.

1166
00:42:17,583 --> 00:42:19,890
A healthy pastor like Curtis said that knows.

1167
00:42:20,049 --> 00:42:21,481
It's... It reminds what Billy Graham said 1

1168
00:42:21,481 --> 00:42:23,390
time. He he had this whole thing where

1169
00:42:23,390 --> 00:42:24,367
obviously, he would never

1170
00:42:24,678 --> 00:42:26,429
be in a in a, a room with

1171
00:42:26,429 --> 00:42:28,179
another woman with the door closed. And the

1172
00:42:28,179 --> 00:42:29,554
the quote behind it always

1173
00:42:30,089 --> 00:42:31,919
sticks with me. And he said, it'll only

1174
00:42:31,919 --> 00:42:34,639
take 5 seconds of ind discretion to obliterate

1175
00:42:34,639 --> 00:42:35,592
50 years of ministry.

1176
00:42:36,466 --> 00:42:37,975
And, I mean, that's how close we are,

1177
00:42:38,134 --> 00:42:39,985
which is what Curtis is getting at. And

1178
00:42:40,438 --> 00:42:41,869
that that... There's the other side of that

1179
00:42:41,869 --> 00:42:42,266
too. Like,

1180
00:42:43,393 --> 00:42:43,893
we

1181
00:42:44,585 --> 00:42:47,231
we can get drunk on that affirmation, and

1182
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:49,773
it's 1 of the reasons why

1183
00:42:50,084 --> 00:42:51,840
you know, people people have been saying, oh,

1184
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:53,437
yeah. Pastor Jeff. You're in you're... You're in

1185
00:42:53,597 --> 00:42:54,794
Utah so you can plan a church, so

1186
00:42:54,794 --> 00:42:56,790
you can just, you know. And and I've

1187
00:42:56,790 --> 00:42:58,786
told multiple people. And my wife and I

1188
00:42:58,786 --> 00:43:01,275
have talked about this. At nausea. As long

1189
00:43:01,275 --> 00:43:03,190
as Hello Saints is was it is it's

1190
00:43:03,190 --> 00:43:05,264
what it is, and people are recognizing passenger

1191
00:43:05,344 --> 00:43:07,274
Jeff and what I'm doing on Youtube. You're

1192
00:43:07,274 --> 00:43:08,550
not gonna I mean rec close to plan

1193
00:43:08,550 --> 00:43:10,226
in the church because people are gonna be

1194
00:43:10,226 --> 00:43:11,663
coming to the church see pastor Jeff, and

1195
00:43:11,822 --> 00:43:14,536
I'm I'm not interested in that. So, I'll

1196
00:43:14,536 --> 00:43:16,223
serve it other, I'll preach at other churches,

1197
00:43:16,382 --> 00:43:18,690
but even whenever I preach, I don't announce

1198
00:43:18,690 --> 00:43:20,042
it. Like, people be like, hey, You put

1199
00:43:20,042 --> 00:43:21,633
out a schedule when you're preaching? I'm like,

1200
00:43:21,793 --> 00:43:21,952
no.

1201
00:43:22,603 --> 00:43:24,198
Because I don't want you to come see

1202
00:43:24,198 --> 00:43:25,554
in pastor, Jeff. If you wanna try to

1203
00:43:25,554 --> 00:43:27,706
find it. Mine somewhere that's fine. But that's

1204
00:43:27,706 --> 00:43:29,939
how close all of us are Yeah. To

1205
00:43:29,939 --> 00:43:32,267
wanting to just, like, grab put our sails

1206
00:43:32,267 --> 00:43:33,943
in the wind of that affirmation and and

1207
00:43:33,943 --> 00:43:34,741
let it take us away...

1208
00:43:36,018 --> 00:43:38,093
And often oftentimes I frame, you know, when

1209
00:43:38,093 --> 00:43:39,130
when a bishop is called,

1210
00:43:39,783 --> 00:43:42,728
it's it's not just a calling for AA1

1211
00:43:42,728 --> 00:43:44,559
man, but it's a calling for a family,

1212
00:43:45,195 --> 00:43:46,867
and and that you alluded to a lot

1213
00:43:46,867 --> 00:43:49,197
of this. I'm curious just from the perspective

1214
00:43:49,509 --> 00:43:50,009
of

1215
00:43:50,706 --> 00:43:54,059
of your spouse, Your wife involving her or

1216
00:43:54,059 --> 00:43:55,896
helping her feel a part of the ministry

1217
00:43:55,896 --> 00:43:57,412
and those types of things Like, what have

1218
00:43:57,412 --> 00:43:58,391
you done to

1219
00:43:59,738 --> 00:44:01,885
make sure that her... The calling is nurturing

1220
00:44:01,885 --> 00:44:03,794
her heart as much as it is your

1221
00:44:03,794 --> 00:44:05,464
heart. Yeah. I think that's a... That's something

1222
00:44:05,464 --> 00:44:06,202
that that,

1223
00:44:07,707 --> 00:44:09,701
I think most pastors who are trying to

1224
00:44:09,701 --> 00:44:11,158
be healthy have an awareness

1225
00:44:11,535 --> 00:44:12,891
of the importance to be,

1226
00:44:13,608 --> 00:44:15,283
you know, first first line of ministries is

1227
00:44:15,283 --> 00:44:17,853
a family. Right? And that relationship with your

1228
00:44:17,853 --> 00:44:20,090
wife is so important. We understand that in

1229
00:44:20,090 --> 00:44:21,209
principle. I think a lot of us,

1230
00:44:22,168 --> 00:44:23,766
aspire to that, and we try to hold

1231
00:44:23,766 --> 00:44:24,565
each other accountable to that.

1232
00:44:25,537 --> 00:44:27,452
But it's hard. I mean, it's it's it's

1233
00:44:27,452 --> 00:44:29,606
very difficult to times because ministry comes in

1234
00:44:29,606 --> 00:44:29,846
waves.

1235
00:44:31,042 --> 00:44:31,542
Inevitably,

1236
00:44:32,334 --> 00:44:34,888
pastor ministry does put a strain on marriages,

1237
00:44:36,244 --> 00:44:38,320
and it can be very frustrating for a

1238
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:39,916
wife, especially depending on the season of life

1239
00:44:39,916 --> 00:44:40,315
that you're in.

1240
00:44:41,050 --> 00:44:41,789
If you're,

1241
00:44:42,410 --> 00:44:44,090
you know, full on, you know, full time

1242
00:44:44,090 --> 00:44:45,450
minutes rep passing, especially if you're in a

1243
00:44:45,450 --> 00:44:47,450
higher role, like a lead role, while you're

1244
00:44:47,450 --> 00:44:49,703
having babies, and you got young kids, That

1245
00:44:49,703 --> 00:44:51,617
can be super lonely for a wife. She's

1246
00:44:51,617 --> 00:44:52,175
feeling like,

1247
00:44:52,893 --> 00:44:54,967
pastors pass her husband's off doing his thing

1248
00:44:54,967 --> 00:44:57,280
while I'm at home, trying to, like, deal

1249
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:58,955
with sleep deprivation and changing diapers.

1250
00:44:59,846 --> 00:45:01,197
I think that can change a season of

1251
00:45:01,197 --> 00:45:03,685
life changes for for people where you can

1252
00:45:03,981 --> 00:45:05,492
join In a place right now where I

1253
00:45:05,492 --> 00:45:06,923
think we're partnering more in ministry than we

1254
00:45:06,923 --> 00:45:09,010
ever have. But it's also because our youngest

1255
00:45:09,010 --> 00:45:10,366
is 7, so we're, like, we're starting to

1256
00:45:10,366 --> 00:45:11,961
get out of that phase. But

1257
00:45:13,476 --> 00:45:14,992
I know that it's been really... It's been

1258
00:45:14,992 --> 00:45:16,507
a learning process for you. So if I'm

1259
00:45:16,507 --> 00:45:18,835
going to be honest, about understanding how to

1260
00:45:18,835 --> 00:45:19,335
truly

1261
00:45:19,872 --> 00:45:22,105
care for, pour to invest and love my

1262
00:45:22,105 --> 00:45:23,141
wife first and foremost,

1263
00:45:24,098 --> 00:45:26,751
and and att to what she's needing

1264
00:45:27,063 --> 00:45:28,737
and not only that, but att to her

1265
00:45:28,737 --> 00:45:30,172
gifting and what she has to offer.

1266
00:45:30,810 --> 00:45:31,310
And,

1267
00:45:32,086 --> 00:45:34,318
you know, just, like, doing what you can

1268
00:45:34,318 --> 00:45:35,115
to get behind that,

1269
00:45:35,767 --> 00:45:36,165
and,

1270
00:45:37,039 --> 00:45:38,789
allow the holy spirit to utilize her how

1271
00:45:38,789 --> 00:45:41,255
she's been called, which is super important.

1272
00:45:42,130 --> 00:45:44,452
I I wanna speak to that, Jeff, Wanna

1273
00:45:44,452 --> 00:45:45,725
figure piggyback off of that. I think,

1274
00:45:47,795 --> 00:45:48,670
a lot of times,

1275
00:45:49,466 --> 00:45:51,775
especially because this is a vocational full time

1276
00:45:51,775 --> 00:45:52,172
calling.

1277
00:45:54,653 --> 00:45:57,117
Within the even evangelical world, the the the

1278
00:45:57,117 --> 00:45:59,661
wife can get swept into that... Well, the

1279
00:45:59,661 --> 00:46:01,410
church did not hire the wife. You know,

1280
00:46:01,568 --> 00:46:02,545
Like, the

1281
00:46:03,254 --> 00:46:05,428
So Yeah. So there's a there's a

1282
00:46:05,964 --> 00:46:06,602
there's a

1283
00:46:07,559 --> 00:46:08,117
kind of a,

1284
00:46:09,472 --> 00:46:11,328
an issue with that because

1285
00:46:12,756 --> 00:46:14,053
pastor wives

1286
00:46:14,510 --> 00:46:17,539
are not created the same. They're all different,

1287
00:46:18,257 --> 00:46:20,664
and their gifting is way different with Jeff

1288
00:46:20,664 --> 00:46:21,943
is speaking to. It's like,

1289
00:46:22,582 --> 00:46:25,080
you know, you're gonna have the pastor wife

1290
00:46:25,459 --> 00:46:27,936
who is just really amazing with 1 on

1291
00:46:27,936 --> 00:46:31,387
1 conversations with other ladies. That's and that's

1292
00:46:31,387 --> 00:46:32,027
her thing.

1293
00:46:32,826 --> 00:46:34,902
And and then you know, you're gonna have

1294
00:46:34,902 --> 00:46:37,632
a pastor wife who's incredibly musical. And so,

1295
00:46:37,792 --> 00:46:39,547
you know, if she she'll serve on on

1296
00:46:39,547 --> 00:46:42,338
on the worship team, and and and that's

1297
00:46:42,338 --> 00:46:42,897
her thing.

1298
00:46:43,934 --> 00:46:45,848
My wife happens to be amazing with kids,

1299
00:46:46,007 --> 00:46:47,019
and she serves

1300
00:46:47,538 --> 00:46:49,052
in our in our kids in the industry.

1301
00:46:49,291 --> 00:46:50,965
She doesn't run it. She's not the director

1302
00:46:50,965 --> 00:46:53,139
of it. She just serves in it, teaches

1303
00:46:53,515 --> 00:46:54,472
weekend and week out.

1304
00:46:55,363 --> 00:46:57,113
The thing that I think we have to

1305
00:46:57,113 --> 00:46:59,182
do with our lives more than anything is

1306
00:46:59,182 --> 00:47:00,239
make sure

1307
00:47:00,853 --> 00:47:01,909
that they're feeling

1308
00:47:02,937 --> 00:47:05,567
loved and valued within the calling,

1309
00:47:06,523 --> 00:47:08,992
and and the spiritual gifts that they've been

1310
00:47:08,992 --> 00:47:09,311
given.

1311
00:47:09,883 --> 00:47:12,848
And not becoming all things to all people

1312
00:47:13,382 --> 00:47:13,882
because

1313
00:47:14,336 --> 00:47:17,619
the natural inclination is for people to have

1314
00:47:18,888 --> 00:47:19,388
Unwritten

1315
00:47:19,847 --> 00:47:21,545
expectation, un unspoken

1316
00:47:22,164 --> 00:47:24,880
expectations of our wives. And sometimes spoken.

1317
00:47:25,849 --> 00:47:26,349
Sometimes.

1318
00:47:27,039 --> 00:47:29,421
Yeah, there would be when it gets when

1319
00:47:29,421 --> 00:47:30,318
it gets really

1320
00:47:31,247 --> 00:47:33,311
hurtful, it gets sometimes it it it gets

1321
00:47:33,311 --> 00:47:33,629
spoken.

1322
00:47:34,438 --> 00:47:35,950
And and then they feel the weight of

1323
00:47:35,950 --> 00:47:38,257
those those expectations from time to time. But

1324
00:47:38,416 --> 00:47:38,996
I think

1325
00:47:40,087 --> 00:47:42,410
that's a careful dynamic I I know there's

1326
00:47:42,410 --> 00:47:44,580
been seasons of my life where my wife

1327
00:47:44,956 --> 00:47:47,581
has felt like she's thriving. She's currently in

1328
00:47:47,581 --> 00:47:49,968
a season like that where she's thriving in

1329
00:47:49,968 --> 00:47:50,206
ministry.

1330
00:47:50,779 --> 00:47:52,374
And we're partnering in ministry,

1331
00:47:53,251 --> 00:47:54,549
but I'm letting her

1332
00:47:54,926 --> 00:47:56,760
not not that I'm letting her, but I'm

1333
00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:59,313
I'm saying, go do that ministry that you

1334
00:47:59,313 --> 00:48:00,132
feel best

1335
00:48:01,398 --> 00:48:03,149
equipped to do most gifted to do,

1336
00:48:03,945 --> 00:48:06,331
but not me expecting her to be something

1337
00:48:06,331 --> 00:48:08,980
that she's not either, which I think sometimes

1338
00:48:09,609 --> 00:48:11,530
you know, can be hurtful as well. As

1339
00:48:11,530 --> 00:48:13,369
if I'm like, hey, you really need to

1340
00:48:13,369 --> 00:48:15,049
be really great with all these 1 on

1341
00:48:15,049 --> 00:48:17,369
1 conversations. And my wife like, no, I'm

1342
00:48:17,369 --> 00:48:18,089
really good with kids.

1343
00:48:19,064 --> 00:48:21,141
Yeah. That's not that's not my that's not

1344
00:48:21,141 --> 00:48:22,980
my thing. So I'm here that many of

1345
00:48:22,980 --> 00:48:24,658
you are probably familiar with sort of the

1346
00:48:24,658 --> 00:48:26,416
structure of our church. Like, we're... We have

1347
00:48:26,416 --> 00:48:29,384
such rigid boundaries and you know, when you

1348
00:48:29,384 --> 00:48:31,056
move to an area, you have, you know,

1349
00:48:31,136 --> 00:48:33,126
a a award or a congregation assigned to

1350
00:48:33,126 --> 00:48:35,356
you, that's sort of the expectation. When when

1351
00:48:35,356 --> 00:48:37,202
you'll go to the church and and and

1352
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:39,346
on Sundays and and who you'll be with

1353
00:48:39,346 --> 00:48:41,753
and those types of things. There's... Sometimes this

1354
00:48:42,126 --> 00:48:43,817
perception it's maybe a miss mis

1355
00:48:44,429 --> 00:48:44,747
misconception,

1356
00:48:45,796 --> 00:48:47,331
that there's this constant

1357
00:48:47,706 --> 00:48:48,684
tension of

1358
00:48:49,059 --> 00:48:51,766
of increasing membership. And I'm curious especially with

1359
00:48:51,845 --> 00:48:53,597
Jeff and Curtis, you're dynamic. You're in the

1360
00:48:53,597 --> 00:48:54,552
same area.

1361
00:48:55,204 --> 00:48:57,697
And, like, how do you reconcile that tension

1362
00:48:57,834 --> 00:49:00,704
where, you know, you you you want more

1363
00:49:00,704 --> 00:49:02,857
people showing up on Sunday, but you also

1364
00:49:02,857 --> 00:49:03,436
don't wanna

1365
00:49:03,907 --> 00:49:05,659
hurt... Curtis is church down and down the

1366
00:49:05,659 --> 00:49:07,729
way if, you know, take from his his,

1367
00:49:07,889 --> 00:49:08,923
his flock s.

1368
00:49:10,197 --> 00:49:11,631
But really, anybody... I mean,

1369
00:49:13,243 --> 00:49:15,241
evangelical can go anywhere he wants if whether

1370
00:49:15,241 --> 00:49:17,079
it's 2 hours away or 5 minute walk

1371
00:49:17,079 --> 00:49:19,717
or wherever it is. Anything come to mind

1372
00:49:19,717 --> 00:49:22,048
with that tension? Is that misconception? Is really

1373
00:49:22,048 --> 00:49:23,166
AAAA

1374
00:49:23,166 --> 00:49:25,559
huge pressure on you? Well, for me, I

1375
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:26,277
I would say,

1376
00:49:27,554 --> 00:49:30,123
it it's it's not it It's it's not

1377
00:49:30,123 --> 00:49:32,760
right now. Right? I think I think prior

1378
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:34,996
see... 1, just like the c whole validation.

1379
00:49:35,236 --> 00:49:36,535
I think any of these things

1380
00:49:37,244 --> 00:49:39,149
can become a thing in your own soul

1381
00:49:39,149 --> 00:49:39,704
in your mind.

1382
00:49:42,324 --> 00:49:44,125
I would say that it's something that

1383
00:49:44,641 --> 00:49:47,579
the reason why it's not is because I'm

1384
00:49:47,579 --> 00:49:49,326
always preaching against it in my own mind.

1385
00:49:50,199 --> 00:49:52,159
You know, like, I have to re I

1386
00:49:52,358 --> 00:49:54,347
I'm preaching against their the reality like,

1387
00:49:55,142 --> 00:49:56,892
man, the Lord is in the the lord

1388
00:49:56,892 --> 00:49:58,960
is in control of who walks in when.

1389
00:49:59,850 --> 00:50:01,440
He just calls me to steward the gift

1390
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:03,030
of the the spear that he's given me

1391
00:50:03,030 --> 00:50:05,096
the gifts he's given me. And what he

1392
00:50:05,096 --> 00:50:06,924
does with that gifting thing. Is on him.

1393
00:50:07,083 --> 00:50:08,196
He the owner. I'm just steward.

1394
00:50:09,248 --> 00:50:11,006
And so... But and I'm not saying that

1395
00:50:11,006 --> 00:50:12,204
because I got all again. I'm saying that,

1396
00:50:12,284 --> 00:50:14,122
because I gotta tell myself that, so I

1397
00:50:14,122 --> 00:50:16,135
don't get to grab after things. Right? And

1398
00:50:16,215 --> 00:50:18,055
I think part of also has helped is,

1399
00:50:18,215 --> 00:50:20,855
like, you named of the partnership that that

1400
00:50:20,934 --> 00:50:22,555
Jeff and I am had. Like, I've

1401
00:50:23,015 --> 00:50:24,954
I've been blessed in ministry

1402
00:50:26,630 --> 00:50:29,349
to always have partners who we really are

1403
00:50:29,349 --> 00:50:32,230
not... We don't talk about numbers. We... That's

1404
00:50:32,230 --> 00:50:34,820
not a conversation Jeff and I were never

1405
00:50:35,117 --> 00:50:36,870
legitimately talked a lot.

1406
00:50:37,746 --> 00:50:40,296
That's not the conversation we've ever had. You

1407
00:50:40,296 --> 00:50:40,455
know?

1408
00:50:41,108 --> 00:50:43,102
So you you need people... And be... And

1409
00:50:43,102 --> 00:50:45,357
when you had those kind of relationships, that

1410
00:50:45,575 --> 00:50:46,075
detox

1411
00:50:46,532 --> 00:50:49,084
anything around that as well when it was

1412
00:50:49,084 --> 00:50:51,171
just purely, our partners was, like, Man, we

1413
00:50:51,171 --> 00:50:53,557
just wanna support people and pointed to Jesus.

1414
00:50:54,034 --> 00:50:55,624
What he does with that? That's between M

1415
00:50:55,624 --> 00:50:57,929
and I, and we were always speak you

1416
00:50:57,929 --> 00:50:58,668
know, of

1417
00:50:59,043 --> 00:51:01,369
affirmation about each other's church we would send

1418
00:51:01,369 --> 00:51:02,967
people to each other other's charge, we're like,

1419
00:51:03,206 --> 00:51:04,565
you should go today charge.

1420
00:51:05,444 --> 00:51:08,161
You know? So because that was our partnership

1421
00:51:08,161 --> 00:51:10,010
and relationship, and I've been blessed to have

1422
00:51:10,010 --> 00:51:10,807
that over the years,

1423
00:51:11,364 --> 00:51:13,196
that's allowed it to not be a deep

1424
00:51:13,196 --> 00:51:13,594
struggle,

1425
00:51:14,550 --> 00:51:17,019
but it constantly can be if I let

1426
00:51:17,019 --> 00:51:17,258
it be.

1427
00:51:18,230 --> 00:51:20,390
Yeah. In in in the Midwest, man, it

1428
00:51:20,390 --> 00:51:22,409
it it can get pretty bad with that

1429
00:51:22,469 --> 00:51:23,829
where it's a competition thing.

1430
00:51:24,390 --> 00:51:25,885
And, you know, the stuff that

1431
00:51:26,484 --> 00:51:28,561
you know, we were doing with Curtis Church.

1432
00:51:28,801 --> 00:51:30,400
There's another... There's a Lutheran church right down

1433
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:33,356
the road, Zion Lutheran. Yep. Yep. There's another

1434
00:51:33,356 --> 00:51:36,403
church across town. That we were almost... I,

1435
00:51:36,642 --> 00:51:37,996
I was doing this in Kurt Curtis, and

1436
00:51:38,076 --> 00:51:39,748
I we would get together once every few

1437
00:51:39,748 --> 00:51:41,739
weeks and have lunch just to build that.

1438
00:51:41,899 --> 00:51:43,173
I mean, 10 years ago, we started doing

1439
00:51:43,173 --> 00:51:46,131
that just because we wanted to have that

1440
00:51:46,131 --> 00:51:48,993
type of relationship because both of us... I

1441
00:51:48,993 --> 00:51:50,526
think we shared a vision for

1442
00:51:50,901 --> 00:51:52,669
the church of of,

1443
00:51:53,388 --> 00:51:55,785
Belle. Like, we we we want people to

1444
00:51:55,785 --> 00:51:57,384
see a reputation of Jesus in the church

1445
00:51:57,384 --> 00:51:59,061
of Belle. Yeah. Just like you have the

1446
00:51:59,061 --> 00:52:00,340
church in ethic emphasis in the church in

1447
00:52:00,340 --> 00:52:02,820
cor. Right? Maybe maybe I can unpack a

1448
00:52:02,820 --> 00:52:04,646
little bit of a utah thing. It's... I've

1449
00:52:04,646 --> 00:52:07,581
been here 22 years. I think this, like

1450
00:52:07,581 --> 00:52:08,081
your

1451
00:52:09,906 --> 00:52:10,406
14

1452
00:52:11,023 --> 00:52:12,300
in full time ministry.

1453
00:52:13,098 --> 00:52:15,275
I've been on both sides of it where

1454
00:52:16,131 --> 00:52:16,824
my first

1455
00:52:17,184 --> 00:52:19,737
Student ministry was at Center point Church.

1456
00:52:20,456 --> 00:52:22,131
When I went there was a church of

1457
00:52:22,131 --> 00:52:22,849
about 400.

1458
00:52:23,488 --> 00:52:24,980
When I left there was a church of

1459
00:52:25,179 --> 00:52:25,815
1000.

1460
00:52:26,213 --> 00:52:27,907
I never ever sensed

1461
00:52:28,442 --> 00:52:28,942
anything

1462
00:52:29,636 --> 00:52:30,829
internal there of, like,

1463
00:52:31,546 --> 00:52:34,570
self preservation because we were a growing thriving

1464
00:52:34,570 --> 00:52:37,547
to if that makes sense. Yep. And

1465
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:39,668
and now being a part of a church

1466
00:52:39,668 --> 00:52:41,256
that's about a hundred and 60 people.

1467
00:52:41,891 --> 00:52:42,391
And

1468
00:52:43,420 --> 00:52:43,920
and

1469
00:52:44,460 --> 00:52:45,760
understanding more of the dynamic

1470
00:52:46,380 --> 00:52:47,680
of, like, what

1471
00:52:48,219 --> 00:52:51,420
church planter who come to utah experience. Church

1472
00:52:51,420 --> 00:52:54,724
planter are people are starting brand new churches

1473
00:52:55,179 --> 00:52:57,112
and they're sent by emissions

1474
00:52:57,487 --> 00:52:59,658
agency, and they're usually given

1475
00:53:00,368 --> 00:53:01,983
2 to 3 years

1476
00:53:02,599 --> 00:53:03,795
to start a church,

1477
00:53:04,352 --> 00:53:05,787
and they come to Utah,

1478
00:53:06,584 --> 00:53:08,434
and it's a lot more like, a 10

1479
00:53:08,434 --> 00:53:10,272
year challenge, than a 2 year challenge.

1480
00:53:11,311 --> 00:53:11,811
Really

1481
00:53:12,669 --> 00:53:13,708
establishing a church,

1482
00:53:14,507 --> 00:53:16,505
and you know that your livelihood is on

1483
00:53:16,505 --> 00:53:16,905
the line.

1484
00:53:17,720 --> 00:53:17,960
And if...

1485
00:53:18,599 --> 00:53:19,099
So

1486
00:53:19,720 --> 00:53:21,240
that's. Let me just say that is a

1487
00:53:21,240 --> 00:53:23,960
full time work. Yeah. Get that off the

1488
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:25,640
ground. Like, I mean,

1489
00:53:26,454 --> 00:53:29,015
anybody who's entrepreneurial and has started their own

1490
00:53:29,015 --> 00:53:29,994
business knows

1491
00:53:30,535 --> 00:53:33,015
the the grit that it takes to start

1492
00:53:33,015 --> 00:53:35,748
something. Well, when you're starting a church, And,

1493
00:53:35,827 --> 00:53:37,494
you know, you... You've gotta have all that

1494
00:53:37,494 --> 00:53:38,710
grit and and

1495
00:53:39,242 --> 00:53:41,625
I... I'll say it. There's a competitiveness there.

1496
00:53:42,101 --> 00:53:44,643
You can't be gritty and competitive. You can't

1497
00:53:44,643 --> 00:53:45,094
be

1498
00:53:45,531 --> 00:53:47,435
gritty without being competitive in in a in

1499
00:53:47,435 --> 00:53:48,173
a certain

1500
00:53:48,626 --> 00:53:51,664
lane. But then you gotta be spiritually real

1501
00:53:51,720 --> 00:53:52,409
and go

1502
00:53:52,767 --> 00:53:55,074
God has not called me to build a

1503
00:53:55,074 --> 00:53:55,472
kingdom.

1504
00:53:55,949 --> 00:53:57,460
He's called me to be a part of

1505
00:53:57,460 --> 00:54:00,108
his kingdom, and we are just a small

1506
00:54:00,244 --> 00:54:00,744
expression

1507
00:54:01,294 --> 00:54:04,168
And so you... You're wrestling with this, I

1508
00:54:04,168 --> 00:54:06,402
belong to this big c church and the

1509
00:54:06,402 --> 00:54:08,717
little c church. And if I don't do

1510
00:54:08,717 --> 00:54:09,675
the little c church,

1511
00:54:10,249 --> 00:54:12,559
and it doesn't grow enough. I don't get

1512
00:54:12,559 --> 00:54:15,904
paid. So that... That is a whole different

1513
00:54:15,904 --> 00:54:16,404
dynamic

1514
00:54:17,179 --> 00:54:19,033
than than most people probably

1515
00:54:19,584 --> 00:54:22,297
realize they just think, oh, that person came

1516
00:54:22,297 --> 00:54:25,808
and their headquarters in Minneapolis is is paying

1517
00:54:25,808 --> 00:54:27,820
their way to do this. And made me

1518
00:54:27,820 --> 00:54:28,460
for 2 years.

1519
00:54:29,099 --> 00:54:31,019
You know? And that's not enough in Utah.

1520
00:54:31,739 --> 00:54:33,739
It's not. You know, in that spirit of

1521
00:54:33,739 --> 00:54:34,960
partnership, I'm just curious

1522
00:54:35,912 --> 00:54:37,827
because this is such a a tricky thing.

1523
00:54:38,945 --> 00:54:40,700
You know, just pivoting back to maybe the

1524
00:54:40,700 --> 00:54:42,775
crux of this this virtual summit.

1525
00:54:43,428 --> 00:54:44,885
Of that inner faith

1526
00:54:45,262 --> 00:54:48,054
effort with the the Church jesus Christ Saturday

1527
00:54:48,054 --> 00:54:49,808
saints. So I'm curious like, if if 1

1528
00:54:49,888 --> 00:54:51,823
Sunday or 1 day, you're in your office

1529
00:54:51,961 --> 00:54:55,407
and 5 local Latter, Saint. Bishop like show

1530
00:54:55,407 --> 00:54:57,323
up, and they're like, hey. We're just... We

1531
00:54:57,323 --> 00:54:59,557
wanna partner. We wanna we wanna help. We

1532
00:54:59,557 --> 00:55:02,125
wanna, like, we wanna healthy inner faith effort

1533
00:55:02,125 --> 00:55:03,799
here? Like, how can we do that? Like,

1534
00:55:03,959 --> 00:55:05,793
what would you say to? I think... I

1535
00:55:05,793 --> 00:55:07,946
mean, we're already starting to to kinda have

1536
00:55:07,946 --> 00:55:08,424
that

1537
00:55:08,902 --> 00:55:09,620
here in Utah.

1538
00:55:10,353 --> 00:55:13,224
Obviously, it's it's if it's happened happening anywhere,

1539
00:55:13,384 --> 00:55:14,501
it's gonna happen to hear first.

1540
00:55:16,893 --> 00:55:18,351
We have a I have an awesome

1541
00:55:18,808 --> 00:55:19,866
relationship with

1542
00:55:20,578 --> 00:55:23,370
Gary and Laura Griffith. They they walked into

1543
00:55:23,370 --> 00:55:24,487
a church. They are...

1544
00:55:25,524 --> 00:55:26,902
They're not missionaries

1545
00:55:28,172 --> 00:55:29,767
pretty money even know what they are,

1546
00:55:30,565 --> 00:55:33,675
what their their technical calling is, but they

1547
00:55:33,675 --> 00:55:33,755
are...

1548
00:55:34,632 --> 00:55:36,887
There an older couple. They probably served,

1549
00:55:37,994 --> 00:55:40,610
a couple missions already in their life, but

1550
00:55:40,610 --> 00:55:42,617
they're they're assigned regionally

1551
00:55:43,148 --> 00:55:44,838
to a number of evangelical

1552
00:55:45,463 --> 00:55:46,813
Not not just evangelical,

1553
00:55:48,322 --> 00:55:50,307
other Christian churches. I think they attend the

1554
00:55:50,465 --> 00:55:52,530
Catholic Parish and all that. Yeah. They're probably

1555
00:55:52,530 --> 00:55:53,300
on the... Mean

1556
00:55:53,896 --> 00:55:56,603
communications, the area Communications council, but is that

1557
00:55:56,603 --> 00:55:57,797
what it? We would call. Yeah.

1558
00:56:00,025 --> 00:56:01,878
I just think it's is a real strategic

1559
00:56:02,015 --> 00:56:02,493
opportunity.

1560
00:56:03,224 --> 00:56:05,864
To to connect with some wonderful people. There's

1561
00:56:05,864 --> 00:56:06,605
they're incredibly

1562
00:56:06,905 --> 00:56:07,704
supportive. I know,

1563
00:56:09,864 --> 00:56:12,264
we said, hey. You're welcome to participant here.

1564
00:56:13,958 --> 00:56:15,796
We we kind of have shared some things

1565
00:56:15,796 --> 00:56:16,935
about, a local,

1566
00:56:17,953 --> 00:56:20,190
thing up here called the Columbus center where

1567
00:56:20,190 --> 00:56:22,864
we wanna we wanna express some,

1568
00:56:24,764 --> 00:56:27,085
you know, you know, just some some focus

1569
00:56:27,085 --> 00:56:29,085
on because they're they're doing a lot of

1570
00:56:29,085 --> 00:56:29,585
things

1571
00:56:30,295 --> 00:56:32,701
with people who are coming to to Har

1572
00:56:32,757 --> 00:56:34,583
moving in and don't know English and so

1573
00:56:34,583 --> 00:56:36,092
we wanna partner with them in that way.

1574
00:56:36,727 --> 00:56:36,886
But,

1575
00:56:38,411 --> 00:56:41,222
they they had made the initiation and

1576
00:56:41,916 --> 00:56:44,726
I've I've really enjoyed the relationship I've had

1577
00:56:45,103 --> 00:56:46,297
with them, and

1578
00:56:47,824 --> 00:56:48,063
exact,

1579
00:56:48,938 --> 00:56:51,484
I didn't... I was pretty new when Gary

1580
00:56:51,484 --> 00:56:54,030
could start Gary Lars coming. I was pretty

1581
00:56:54,030 --> 00:56:55,701
new to the lead pastor position.

1582
00:56:56,591 --> 00:56:58,659
And I hadn't met the mayor Her yet.

1583
00:56:58,818 --> 00:57:01,205
And Gary made the made the connection, so

1584
00:57:01,205 --> 00:57:03,449
we wouldn't met the mayor together and So

1585
00:57:03,449 --> 00:57:05,867
it's been a really cool, cool friendship and

1586
00:57:06,005 --> 00:57:06,165
relationship.

1587
00:57:07,523 --> 00:57:09,760
I I'm both open to that. And and,

1588
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:12,264
of course, there are gonna be times when

1589
00:57:12,954 --> 00:57:14,779
in the course of those relationships, we might

1590
00:57:14,779 --> 00:57:15,279
have

1591
00:57:15,890 --> 00:57:16,786
more defining

1592
00:57:17,239 --> 00:57:18,453
conversations around

1593
00:57:19,079 --> 00:57:21,713
you know, doctor and belize, but they're wonderful

1594
00:57:21,713 --> 00:57:22,213
people

1595
00:57:23,308 --> 00:57:26,123
that that we just... We really enjoy and

1596
00:57:26,261 --> 00:57:26,761
they're

1597
00:57:27,074 --> 00:57:28,850
they're very sermon hearted. So

1598
00:57:30,106 --> 00:57:32,339
I guess, on my response is... Let's be

1599
00:57:32,339 --> 00:57:33,695
open to that. Yeah.

1600
00:57:34,349 --> 00:57:35,943
Yeah. When you first asked that question,

1601
00:57:36,979 --> 00:57:39,052
I mean, I did my answer that what

1602
00:57:39,052 --> 00:57:40,726
still is as... Actually, I I don't know

1603
00:57:40,726 --> 00:57:42,002
what I would say. I I can I

1604
00:57:42,002 --> 00:57:43,847
can tell you that the tone, at least

1605
00:57:43,847 --> 00:57:46,231
the heart behind what I would wanna say

1606
00:57:46,231 --> 00:57:48,775
is curiosity and hospitality? Like, that's... So I

1607
00:57:48,775 --> 00:57:50,126
can tell you I say, okay. I would

1608
00:57:50,126 --> 00:57:50,943
pursue curiosity

1609
00:57:51,398 --> 00:57:51,636
hospitality.

1610
00:57:52,209 --> 00:57:53,725
What I would say, I actually don't know.

1611
00:57:54,922 --> 00:57:58,115
You know, I, you know, Jeff's Ministry with

1612
00:57:58,115 --> 00:58:00,683
jose sense actually has been very impactful. Searching

1613
00:58:00,683 --> 00:58:02,199
for the area that I'm in where I

1614
00:58:02,199 --> 00:58:04,512
grew up, where it's like, actually, that overlap

1615
00:58:04,512 --> 00:58:06,346
has never happened at least in my context.

1616
00:58:07,941 --> 00:58:08,441
And

1617
00:58:09,137 --> 00:58:09,855
and so,

1618
00:58:10,188 --> 00:58:11,143
when you asked I was like,

1619
00:58:12,257 --> 00:58:12,416
well,

1620
00:58:13,451 --> 00:58:14,962
I wonder if they even would show up.

1621
00:58:15,201 --> 00:58:15,360
Like,

1622
00:58:16,871 --> 00:58:17,244
I

1623
00:58:17,761 --> 00:58:20,222
The show, I'm interested in showing

1624
00:58:21,255 --> 00:58:23,319
So Mean sound like, I don't even know.

1625
00:58:23,557 --> 00:58:25,463
Like, I don't have they actual what day.

1626
00:58:25,702 --> 00:58:27,544
I don't even know. Will now. Now that

1627
00:58:27,544 --> 00:58:29,930
we've talked about. I know. That's I'm like

1628
00:58:30,009 --> 00:58:32,236
I'm searching the asking that. I was like,

1629
00:58:32,474 --> 00:58:34,701
I I know they're around. I don't know.

1630
00:58:35,592 --> 00:58:38,139
But I just know enough where my heart

1631
00:58:38,139 --> 00:58:40,447
will be lean that with curiosity and hospitality.

1632
00:58:40,686 --> 00:58:42,277
Well, you're well, you're welcome walking to our

1633
00:58:42,277 --> 00:58:44,427
offices as well. You'll be very welcome if

1634
00:58:44,427 --> 00:58:47,075
you walk. Good. Okay. It's very helpful. Thank

1635
00:58:47,075 --> 00:58:48,112
you. Yeah. I think,

1636
00:58:48,831 --> 00:58:50,667
just because of who I am and my

1637
00:58:50,667 --> 00:58:52,844
background, I mean we have been doing inner

1638
00:58:53,302 --> 00:58:54,394
religious dialogues with

1639
00:58:54,833 --> 00:58:57,468
Latter saints for, like, 10 years. So if

1640
00:58:57,468 --> 00:58:58,745
if I went to my elders and I

1641
00:58:58,745 --> 00:59:00,581
said, hey, I'd like to partner with some

1642
00:59:00,661 --> 00:59:02,817
L bishop, they'd be like, okay.

1643
00:59:04,190 --> 00:59:05,469
Just because yeah, that's...

1644
00:59:06,829 --> 00:59:08,510
I don't know. They'd be like, no, Kyle

1645
00:59:08,510 --> 00:59:10,190
wants to hang out with more mormons, whatever.

1646
00:59:11,644 --> 00:59:13,244
I, and I think it depends, like, somebody

1647
00:59:13,244 --> 00:59:15,565
said, like, define partnership. Right? If if the

1648
00:59:15,565 --> 00:59:17,824
bishop are, like, hey, we we would love

1649
00:59:17,965 --> 00:59:19,085
we would love to, like,

1650
00:59:19,738 --> 00:59:21,489
preach on a Sunday morning, and I'd be

1651
00:59:21,489 --> 00:59:23,320
like, and I would love to talk at

1652
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:25,391
general conference. If you can make that work,

1653
00:59:25,630 --> 00:59:27,142
I'll give you 1 of our Sundays. Right?

1654
00:59:27,794 --> 00:59:30,268
So this there's probably... We found the wall.

1655
00:59:30,507 --> 00:59:32,980
Right? Or the limit. But, emma, we live

1656
00:59:32,980 --> 00:59:34,576
on the Gulf Coast. I've been through 2

1657
00:59:34,576 --> 00:59:37,224
hurricanes in the past 10 years and inevitably

1658
00:59:37,224 --> 00:59:38,740
one's gonna come. And you know who's gonna

1659
00:59:38,740 --> 00:59:39,139
show up,

1660
00:59:40,336 --> 00:59:42,570
L disaster relief from the Bishop Store.

1661
00:59:43,301 --> 00:59:44,892
I've seen it before we're gonna see him

1662
00:59:44,892 --> 00:59:46,108
again. And so there's.

1663
00:59:46,482 --> 00:59:47,300
There's clearly

1664
00:59:47,755 --> 00:59:49,902
like, what we would in the protestant world

1665
00:59:49,902 --> 00:59:50,856
called common grace.

1666
00:59:51,908 --> 00:59:55,659
Ways that god commonly bless people. There's clearly

1667
00:59:55,659 --> 00:59:57,117
ways that we can partner with

1668
00:59:57,655 --> 00:59:59,810
there, and those are really interesting to me.

1669
01:00:00,304 --> 01:00:02,621
Awesome. Really great. Great suggestions and thoughts.

1670
01:00:03,420 --> 01:00:04,858
And this... I mean, this is discussion. Just

1671
01:00:04,858 --> 01:00:07,675
been great. I, hopefully, it inspires others that

1672
01:00:07,909 --> 01:00:09,023
You see that they they don't bite it.

1673
01:00:09,261 --> 01:00:10,454
I didn't bite it No, at least I

1674
01:00:10,454 --> 01:00:11,193
hope. But

1675
01:00:11,886 --> 01:00:13,795
we can have you gonna have conversations. You

1676
01:00:13,795 --> 01:00:15,961
walk in each other's church or, sit down

1677
01:00:15,961 --> 01:00:17,636
at in in the coffee shop and get

1678
01:00:17,636 --> 01:00:19,630
yourself a nice warm cup of of hot

1679
01:00:19,630 --> 01:00:21,327
chocolate and and share with

1680
01:00:22,262 --> 01:00:23,400
sharing the schedule.

1681
01:00:24,176 --> 01:00:24,416
No.

1682
01:00:25,467 --> 01:00:27,459
But so I really appreciate this. I really

1683
01:00:27,459 --> 01:00:29,132
appreciate this. Last question I have. This is

1684
01:00:29,132 --> 01:00:29,929
a question that's,

1685
01:00:30,567 --> 01:00:33,131
a traditional question. I ask on the leading

1686
01:00:33,290 --> 01:00:35,441
Saints podcast at the end of the episode.

1687
01:00:36,635 --> 01:00:38,865
Because I think there is a unique dynamic

1688
01:00:38,865 --> 01:00:41,669
that happens as you lead a flock, And

1689
01:00:41,829 --> 01:00:43,667
I also wanna give you opportunity to to

1690
01:00:43,667 --> 01:00:45,605
share a little bit of your witness of

1691
01:00:45,824 --> 01:00:49,021
of your savior, Jesus Christ. And so maybe

1692
01:00:49,181 --> 01:00:51,771
I'll start with Nate. And everybody else can

1693
01:00:51,829 --> 01:00:53,902
start thinking of of your response as well.

1694
01:00:54,062 --> 01:00:55,258
But my the question is this,

1695
01:00:55,976 --> 01:00:57,969
as you reflect on your time as a

1696
01:00:57,969 --> 01:00:59,245
leader in the church,

1697
01:00:59,817 --> 01:01:01,723
how is being a leader helped you become

1698
01:01:01,723 --> 01:01:03,470
a better follower of Jesus Christ?

1699
01:01:04,185 --> 01:01:06,090
That's a that's a great question.

1700
01:01:07,932 --> 01:01:09,362
1 of ways that, you know,

1701
01:01:10,394 --> 01:01:12,539
especially as I become a a lead pastor

1702
01:01:12,539 --> 01:01:14,208
and I start to see things from kind

1703
01:01:14,208 --> 01:01:14,867
of a

1704
01:01:15,399 --> 01:01:18,207
more of a 30000 foot view of of

1705
01:01:18,207 --> 01:01:19,405
what's going on in the church.

1706
01:01:21,403 --> 01:01:22,302
I've been g

1707
01:01:22,761 --> 01:01:23,261
towards

1708
01:01:24,690 --> 01:01:27,737
seeing those people who are gifted in

1709
01:01:28,113 --> 01:01:31,535
service. Like, they're they're they're... We we call

1710
01:01:31,535 --> 01:01:33,150
it service and helps

1711
01:01:34,259 --> 01:01:36,437
is a as a spiritual gifting

1712
01:01:36,976 --> 01:01:40,512
and how they... They're they're constantly looking for

1713
01:01:42,423 --> 01:01:45,286
an opportunity to do something for someone else.

1714
01:01:46,321 --> 01:01:48,230
That is not my gifting.

1715
01:01:51,507 --> 01:01:54,396
But that is still my calling. And so

1716
01:01:55,090 --> 01:01:57,002
I've been thinking a lot about that recently.

1717
01:01:57,161 --> 01:01:57,719
It's like,

1718
01:01:58,594 --> 01:01:59,413
even though

1719
01:02:00,682 --> 01:02:03,393
My gifting is probably more relational and 1

1720
01:02:03,393 --> 01:02:04,133
on 1

1721
01:02:04,749 --> 01:02:07,461
conversations or 1 on 5 conversations doesn't matter.

1722
01:02:07,621 --> 01:02:09,216
It's, like, very highly relational.

1723
01:02:10,505 --> 01:02:11,005
My

1724
01:02:12,096 --> 01:02:14,164
my calling is to set an example like

1725
01:02:14,402 --> 01:02:15,755
Jesus with washing feet.

1726
01:02:18,315 --> 01:02:18,815
And

1727
01:02:19,348 --> 01:02:21,495
so we're... We don't have a building right

1728
01:02:21,495 --> 01:02:21,654
now,

1729
01:02:22,608 --> 01:02:23,108
and

1730
01:02:24,119 --> 01:02:26,288
I kinda even hesitate saying this, but

1731
01:02:27,237 --> 01:02:27,716
my wife,

1732
01:02:28,514 --> 01:02:30,269
we we made at a charter school and

1733
01:02:30,269 --> 01:02:32,264
the and the bathrooms are not great.

1734
01:02:33,061 --> 01:02:33,561
And

1735
01:02:34,353 --> 01:02:36,370
my wife is a servant,

1736
01:02:37,945 --> 01:02:38,983
and she's like,

1737
01:02:39,622 --> 01:02:41,878
we gotta make sure these bathrooms are,

1738
01:02:42,256 --> 01:02:42,575
you know,

1739
01:02:43,707 --> 01:02:45,781
usable and and clean,

1740
01:02:46,738 --> 01:02:49,290
and and I wanna do that for everybody

1741
01:02:49,290 --> 01:02:50,567
who walks in the door of the church,

1742
01:02:50,885 --> 01:02:52,742
our members, the people who

1743
01:02:53,054 --> 01:02:55,123
who may coming for the first time that

1744
01:02:55,362 --> 01:02:56,874
I don't want them to have... It's at

1745
01:02:56,874 --> 01:02:59,739
the spirit of hospitality to just make sure

1746
01:02:59,739 --> 01:03:00,239
everything

1747
01:03:00,853 --> 01:03:02,206
is is okay.

1748
01:03:02,937 --> 01:03:05,083
For for everybody. And so she... She'd been

1749
01:03:05,083 --> 01:03:06,672
cleaning the bathroom. She's got a team of

1750
01:03:06,672 --> 01:03:06,990
ladies.

1751
01:03:08,023 --> 01:03:08,523
And

1752
01:03:09,215 --> 01:03:10,985
I get there you know, we get there

1753
01:03:10,985 --> 01:03:12,505
at the same time we get their own,

1754
01:03:12,585 --> 01:03:14,265
you know, 2 and a half hours before

1755
01:03:14,265 --> 01:03:15,144
our service starts.

1756
01:03:15,704 --> 01:03:17,784
And we're setting up, and we have to

1757
01:03:17,784 --> 01:03:19,556
tear down it's the kinda of church we

1758
01:03:19,556 --> 01:03:21,550
are right now because we're we're meeting in

1759
01:03:21,550 --> 01:03:22,029
a school.

1760
01:03:23,066 --> 01:03:23,566
And

1761
01:03:24,820 --> 01:03:26,894
I, over the last couple of weeks, I've

1762
01:03:26,894 --> 01:03:28,090
been including the men's factor.

1763
01:03:30,339 --> 01:03:32,253
That is not something that I had Eyes

1764
01:03:32,253 --> 01:03:34,487
zone. That's not something I signed up to

1765
01:03:34,487 --> 01:03:36,959
do. That's not something that I enjoy.

1766
01:03:38,807 --> 01:03:39,307
But

1767
01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:41,137
but it's it's

1768
01:03:41,591 --> 01:03:42,091
necessary

1769
01:03:43,023 --> 01:03:44,216
for me to, like,

1770
01:03:44,852 --> 01:03:45,352
really

1771
01:03:45,966 --> 01:03:46,466
understand

1772
01:03:47,255 --> 01:03:49,255
what Jesus means with being a leader.

1773
01:03:50,614 --> 01:03:51,114
And

1774
01:03:51,494 --> 01:03:52,954
so I... I'm

1775
01:03:53,574 --> 01:03:54,614
starting to clean toilets.

1776
01:03:55,504 --> 01:03:57,010
My wife does a women's bathroom.

1777
01:03:57,565 --> 01:03:58,912
I'm doing the men's bathroom.

1778
01:04:00,180 --> 01:04:01,527
There's a lot of times where she's way

1779
01:04:01,527 --> 01:04:03,453
better and fast her and so she gets

1780
01:04:03,453 --> 01:04:05,931
further along and and finishes some stuff before

1781
01:04:06,090 --> 01:04:07,869
I even get in there. But

1782
01:04:08,568 --> 01:04:10,406
but it's just this idea of, like,

1783
01:04:11,779 --> 01:04:14,097
when when Jesus calls us into leadership, he

1784
01:04:14,097 --> 01:04:15,316
calls us into servant

1785
01:04:15,855 --> 01:04:16,094
leadership.

1786
01:04:17,293 --> 01:04:19,071
It's not it's not about,

1787
01:04:19,530 --> 01:04:19,770
you know,

1788
01:04:20,585 --> 01:04:21,304
Hey. Look at me.

1789
01:04:22,184 --> 01:04:22,844
I'm this

1790
01:04:23,385 --> 01:04:24,925
amazing leader, gifted

1791
01:04:25,545 --> 01:04:26,844
communicator, whatever. It's

1792
01:04:27,876 --> 01:04:28,376
it's

1793
01:04:29,149 --> 01:04:31,001
showing the kind of love that jesus

1794
01:04:31,615 --> 01:04:32,172
shows us.

1795
01:04:32,809 --> 01:04:34,241
He lays down his life for us. And

1796
01:04:34,241 --> 01:04:35,673
that's really what Love is. I mean,

1797
01:04:36,403 --> 01:04:37,063
the word

1798
01:04:37,755 --> 01:04:40,956
is sac love. And if we're not exhibiting

1799
01:04:41,171 --> 01:04:42,998
exhibiting you that as leaders, we're not leading

1800
01:04:42,998 --> 01:04:44,508
late Jesus. Jesus said.

1801
01:04:45,239 --> 01:04:46,114
Yeah. Yeah.

1802
01:04:46,829 --> 01:04:48,421
Kyle. What about you? How's being a leader

1803
01:04:48,421 --> 01:04:50,092
helps you become a better follower of Jesus

1804
01:04:50,171 --> 01:04:52,081
Christ? Yeah. I I think probably 1 of

1805
01:04:52,081 --> 01:04:53,933
the biggest lessons I've I've learned

1806
01:04:54,721 --> 01:04:57,346
with just over a decade of, like, ministry

1807
01:04:57,346 --> 01:04:58,699
leadership experience is

1808
01:05:00,050 --> 01:05:00,869
that leaders

1809
01:05:01,420 --> 01:05:01,920
often...

1810
01:05:02,460 --> 01:05:04,639
Or say like this, leaders more often

1811
01:05:05,019 --> 01:05:06,799
operate out of character

1812
01:05:07,179 --> 01:05:08,719
than they do competency.

1813
01:05:09,754 --> 01:05:12,384
Like, your your ministry training does not prepare

1814
01:05:12,384 --> 01:05:13,818
you for every single scenario.

1815
01:05:15,572 --> 01:05:18,219
There's... There's not like a playbook or or

1816
01:05:18,219 --> 01:05:19,817
necessarily rule book for,

1817
01:05:20,936 --> 01:05:23,573
pastor a flock of of God's people.

1818
01:05:24,132 --> 01:05:25,571
And so what I've what I've learned is

1819
01:05:25,571 --> 01:05:26,950
that spiritual leadership

1820
01:05:27,822 --> 01:05:29,758
has pushed me into

1821
01:05:30,454 --> 01:05:33,267
cultivating in myself, the Christian virtue

1822
01:05:33,804 --> 01:05:36,117
so that when when scenarios happen that I

1823
01:05:36,117 --> 01:05:38,518
that I can't couldn't have foresee or or

1824
01:05:38,518 --> 01:05:40,423
wouldn't have expected or even welcomed.

1825
01:05:41,773 --> 01:05:43,757
My default is to operate out of a

1826
01:05:43,757 --> 01:05:45,663
god on or in character rather than anything

1827
01:05:45,663 --> 01:05:45,901
else.

1828
01:05:46,792 --> 01:05:48,945
And that's been a really san process for

1829
01:05:48,945 --> 01:05:49,424
me too.

1830
01:05:50,062 --> 01:05:51,736
As Nate said, like, humility is 1 of

1831
01:05:51,736 --> 01:05:55,005
those. Right? But also love, gentleness, kindness, respect,

1832
01:05:57,414 --> 01:05:59,967
all of the Christian Virtue. Right? I've been

1833
01:05:59,967 --> 01:06:02,121
really, really pressed into. I'm not perfect. I've

1834
01:06:02,121 --> 01:06:04,763
got I've got hundreds of thousands of miles

1835
01:06:04,763 --> 01:06:06,673
to go. But 1 of the blessings things

1836
01:06:06,753 --> 01:06:08,663
I've I've received from being a christian leader

1837
01:06:08,663 --> 01:06:11,209
is is god is using the position to

1838
01:06:11,209 --> 01:06:13,216
sync. Me to to look more like his

1839
01:06:13,216 --> 01:06:14,333
son. Awesome.

1840
01:06:14,811 --> 01:06:15,689
Curtis, what about you?

1841
01:06:16,566 --> 01:06:17,125
Yeah, man.

1842
01:06:17,922 --> 01:06:19,119
You know, when I think with the question

1843
01:06:19,119 --> 01:06:21,033
you said, how did leading... How does the

1844
01:06:21,033 --> 01:06:22,091
leading help me

1845
01:06:22,724 --> 01:06:23,543
and following.

1846
01:06:24,801 --> 01:06:25,839
And when it's all said and done,

1847
01:06:27,277 --> 01:06:28,976
you know, III

1848
01:06:29,449 --> 01:06:30,988
I'm in this Christian thing

1849
01:06:31,527 --> 01:06:34,963
because Jesus invited me into a lifelong long

1850
01:06:34,963 --> 01:06:35,523
walk with him.

1851
01:06:36,482 --> 01:06:37,521
And so at the end of the day,

1852
01:06:37,681 --> 01:06:38,181
whatever

1853
01:06:39,050 --> 01:06:41,373
he calls me to guess me to do

1854
01:06:41,587 --> 01:06:44,202
invites me into... It's to the end of

1855
01:06:44,202 --> 01:06:45,867
knowing him and being known by him.

1856
01:06:46,675 --> 01:06:49,056
And so so leadership isn't...

1857
01:06:51,436 --> 01:06:53,500
What I've learned over the over the decades

1858
01:06:53,500 --> 01:06:55,978
is leadership, is it really merely what I

1859
01:06:55,978 --> 01:06:56,695
do for him.

1860
01:06:57,730 --> 01:07:00,119
Actually, I think I think it's primarily a

1861
01:07:00,119 --> 01:07:02,268
means of knowing him deeply and being known

1862
01:07:02,268 --> 01:07:02,666
by him.

1863
01:07:03,957 --> 01:07:06,670
And to then then he uses me to

1864
01:07:06,670 --> 01:07:08,985
bless other people, but it's a source of

1865
01:07:08,985 --> 01:07:10,900
san certification and relationship building.

1866
01:07:11,869 --> 01:07:13,719
With my savior. And so

1867
01:07:14,252 --> 01:07:16,475
every opportunity of leadership is opportunity,

1868
01:07:17,032 --> 01:07:19,255
when I'm in a counseling appointment when I'm

1869
01:07:19,255 --> 01:07:21,415
scheduling a meeting, When I'm when I'm with

1870
01:07:21,415 --> 01:07:23,721
my staff. That is an opportunity to invite

1871
01:07:23,721 --> 01:07:24,221
him

1872
01:07:24,675 --> 01:07:27,718
into that moment into that space and experience

1873
01:07:27,934 --> 01:07:28,434
him

1874
01:07:28,744 --> 01:07:30,820
and whatever comes when I'm... If I'm overwhelmed.

1875
01:07:31,059 --> 01:07:32,735
If I'm scared if I'm nervous if I'm

1876
01:07:32,735 --> 01:07:33,215
joyful,

1877
01:07:33,773 --> 01:07:35,849
it's an opportunity just to walk with him

1878
01:07:35,849 --> 01:07:37,366
in that moment because at the end of

1879
01:07:37,366 --> 01:07:37,685
the day,

1880
01:07:38,815 --> 01:07:40,008
we're not gonna be in heaven time of

1881
01:07:40,008 --> 01:07:40,565
what we leading.

1882
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:42,713
We we're gonna be in heaven demo who

1883
01:07:42,793 --> 01:07:45,021
I'm walking with. I'm, and and so at

1884
01:07:45,021 --> 01:07:46,612
the end of the day, in leadership or

1885
01:07:46,612 --> 01:07:49,172
or what ever capacity, he's calling us to

1886
01:07:49,172 --> 01:07:51,080
the function with Leadership business or whatever.

1887
01:07:51,796 --> 01:07:53,625
It's it's in the lens of how is

1888
01:07:53,625 --> 01:07:56,249
that helping me know and walk with him

1889
01:07:56,249 --> 01:07:56,749
more

1890
01:07:57,858 --> 01:08:01,373
and leadership gives prime opportunity for him to

1891
01:08:01,373 --> 01:08:03,610
be invited to so many aspects of my

1892
01:08:03,610 --> 01:08:05,937
life. And I get to just see him

1893
01:08:05,937 --> 01:08:07,690
more and see him active in my life

1894
01:08:07,690 --> 01:08:08,885
and get to know his heart a bit

1895
01:08:08,885 --> 01:08:09,442
more every day.

1896
01:08:10,239 --> 01:08:10,558
Love it.

1897
01:08:11,529 --> 01:08:12,963
Jeff, what about you? He can lead us

1898
01:08:12,963 --> 01:08:13,920
out here. Yeah.

1899
01:08:14,557 --> 01:08:16,311
For me, you know, there's this grown up

1900
01:08:16,311 --> 01:08:17,268
in a Christian church,

1901
01:08:18,145 --> 01:08:19,021
in a Christian home.

1902
01:08:19,991 --> 01:08:22,218
A sanitize Christian environment. There's a lot of

1903
01:08:22,218 --> 01:08:24,285
sentimental mentality that can get infused with a

1904
01:08:24,285 --> 01:08:25,819
faith walk. And

1905
01:08:26,273 --> 01:08:28,199
maybe even a bit of romance tied to,

1906
01:08:28,280 --> 01:08:29,880
you know, this whole idea following Jesus,

1907
01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:32,439
especially for someone in my position, which I

1908
01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:33,899
I just grew up at a pretty,

1909
01:08:34,199 --> 01:08:37,014
you know, even ke privileged life. And then

1910
01:08:37,014 --> 01:08:38,532
so when you get an ministry though, you

1911
01:08:38,532 --> 01:08:40,230
realize really quick that

1912
01:08:40,850 --> 01:08:43,726
symptom mentality isn't gonna carry you. The romance

1913
01:08:43,726 --> 01:08:45,645
of ministry, the romance have even following Jesus.

1914
01:08:46,457 --> 01:08:48,471
Really starts to experience dissonance

1915
01:08:49,087 --> 01:08:51,796
when you start to recognize, oh, okay. I

1916
01:08:51,796 --> 01:08:53,881
get it. So when Jesus says, you follow

1917
01:08:53,881 --> 01:08:55,390
me, you're gonna suffer. When he says you

1918
01:08:55,390 --> 01:08:56,740
follow me, you're gonna have to, like sacrifice.

1919
01:08:57,217 --> 01:08:58,726
Oh, this is kind of what he's talking

1920
01:08:58,726 --> 01:08:59,759
about because,

1921
01:09:01,188 --> 01:09:02,697
people let you down, You're betrayed.

1922
01:09:03,989 --> 01:09:04,229
You...

1923
01:09:05,189 --> 01:09:07,510
The... Your your best efforts don't always produce

1924
01:09:07,510 --> 01:09:07,750
fruit.

1925
01:09:08,789 --> 01:09:10,710
You do feel burnt out. Your family does

1926
01:09:10,710 --> 01:09:11,770
get hit. So

1927
01:09:12,483 --> 01:09:13,278
I think for me,

1928
01:09:15,026 --> 01:09:16,298
what's helped me most of my relationship with

1929
01:09:16,377 --> 01:09:18,842
Jesus by being in in ministry is him

1930
01:09:18,842 --> 01:09:21,475
helping me understand that following him is not

1931
01:09:21,475 --> 01:09:23,773
just about sentimental mentality, but it is about

1932
01:09:23,773 --> 01:09:24,273
sacrifice.

1933
01:09:25,358 --> 01:09:26,729
He came to sacrifice.

1934
01:09:27,432 --> 01:09:29,096
Now it was a sacrifice driven by love,

1935
01:09:29,255 --> 01:09:31,552
but it it it it can't be this

1936
01:09:31,552 --> 01:09:34,429
whole romantic sentimental like deal, and I think

1937
01:09:34,658 --> 01:09:37,131
that's why so many pastors get disillusioned and

1938
01:09:37,131 --> 01:09:38,408
dis enchanted. I think that's why a lot

1939
01:09:38,408 --> 01:09:40,322
of christians get so disillusioned and just enchanted.

1940
01:09:40,641 --> 01:09:42,156
So I've just been really grateful, and it's

1941
01:09:42,156 --> 01:09:43,353
really hard for me to say because Walked

1942
01:09:43,353 --> 01:09:45,443
through some... I've walked through some Hell. Curtis

1943
01:09:45,443 --> 01:09:47,440
can attest. He's walked alongside me as I

1944
01:09:47,440 --> 01:09:48,799
walked through hell. Curtis has walked through hell.

1945
01:09:48,958 --> 01:09:49,917
I've seen him walk through a lot of

1946
01:09:49,917 --> 01:09:51,196
stuff being in pastor ministry.

1947
01:09:51,915 --> 01:09:52,415
But

1948
01:09:52,728 --> 01:09:54,791
why are we still doing it? Well because

1949
01:09:54,791 --> 01:09:55,426
he's showing us,

1950
01:09:56,854 --> 01:09:57,354
his

1951
01:09:57,728 --> 01:09:59,712
his mission and his ministry to us.

1952
01:10:00,364 --> 01:10:04,199
Yes By Yes. Allowing us to experience the

1953
01:10:04,199 --> 01:10:05,179
loss of vacancy

1954
01:10:05,798 --> 01:10:07,475
and and the need to to call in

1955
01:10:07,475 --> 01:10:09,245
the father. So that's that's what I've learned.

1956
01:10:09,404 --> 01:10:09,958
That's buddy.

1957
01:10:17,514 --> 01:10:19,914
Alright. That concludes my interview. With these phenomenal

1958
01:10:19,914 --> 01:10:22,715
pastors really appreciate their time entertaining my questions.

1959
01:10:22,954 --> 01:10:24,154
I learned a lot. I hope you did

1960
01:10:24,154 --> 01:10:26,890
as well. Again, remember to go sign up

1961
01:10:26,890 --> 01:10:28,890
for the Hello saints virtual summit that's happening

1962
01:10:28,890 --> 01:10:31,210
right now. There's still time to see all

1963
01:10:31,210 --> 01:10:33,610
the videos. And if you are listening to

1964
01:10:33,610 --> 01:10:35,864
this far into the future, and just wanna

1965
01:10:35,864 --> 01:10:38,185
still access the content. Just visit hello saints

1966
01:10:38,185 --> 01:10:40,265
dot com, and you'll find all the information

1967
01:10:40,265 --> 01:10:42,585
you need there to access to content.