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- How do you help
someone tell their spouse

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that they have secretly
been viewing pornography?

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Wow. These are tough situations.

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Thankfully, one of my favorite

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and most effective therapists, Jeff Reer,

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put together a presentation
about disclosing betrayal.

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Jeff explains how disclosing
betrayal can make recovery

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and repentance so much
more difficult if it

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isn't handled correctly.

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This isn't a rip the bandaid
off quickly type of situation.

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With a better understanding of betrayal,

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church leaders can be a strong
resource in helping couples

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navigate the awful effects
of pornography usage.

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You can watch Jeff's entire
presentation at no cost in the

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Liberating Saints virtual library.

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Simply go to leading saints.org/fourteen,

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and you can sign up for
14 days of free access

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to Jeff's presentation
and the entire library.

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It's one of my favorite interviews.

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Hey, if you're newbie to
Leading Saints, it's important

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that you know, what is
this Leading Saints thing?

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Well, leading Saints is a
nonprofit organization dedicated,

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helping latter day saints
be better prepared to lead.

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And the way we do that is
through content creation.

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So we have this phenomenal podcast.

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We have a newsletter, we
have virtual conferences.

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So much more at articles on our website.

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I mean, I could go on and on, right?

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<laugh>, and we encourage
you to, uh, jump in,

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check out Leading Saints, uh, go

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to the search bar@leadingsaints.org

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and type in some topics
and see what pops up.

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We're just glad you're here to join us.

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Hey everyone. Welcome back to
the Leading Saints podcast.

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I'm excited to introduce
you to an old friend

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of mine named Joe Spirit,

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and we just happened to go
to high school together.

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Uh, he was a year older than
me, just an awesome guy.

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Uh, and we were reconnected a
few decades after high school.

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And, uh, to see the work he's
doing with men and masculinity

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and helping gather men
specifically in Utah is inspiring.

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And so we explore more of this concept,

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and we've been talking more

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and more on leading saints about

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men at church, men in elders form.

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What do we need to understand?

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And, and I hope you feel
a little bit overwhelmed

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by the amount of content we've
been producing in relation to

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men in at church, because
this is a big problem.

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We often don't know how
to approach these things,

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so I'd rather overwhelm you

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with information rather
than not give you enough.

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And so Joe brings a really
unique perspective on

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what is toxic masculinity?

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Where does it come from? Why
do men feel like they have

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to carry the blame for a lot of things?

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Why do a lot of men,
even young men, just seem

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to struggle in life.

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They just can't seem to get a
hold of the next step in life

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and show up with strength and purpose.

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And so phenomenal
discussion, especially, uh,

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this would be one to share with the elders

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cie, you know, in your life.

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How can we stimulate a sense
of brotherhood in elders?

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And Joe discusses it all. It's phenomenal.

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So here's my interview with Joe

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today.

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I'm welcome in an old friend,
Joe Spiritan. How are you?

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I'm good. Good to be here. Now we,

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we happened to go to high school together.

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I think you were age older.

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You were class of 99, class
of nine. Nine. I was 2000.

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And, uh, you were the, the big scary guy

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that walked the roam the halls.

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Right. Uh, but then we connected
just a few years ago again,

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and then we're, we have such
a passion for men's work

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and, uh, helping, helping men that,

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that led to this interview. So

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- It's awesome.

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- Nice. It's
- Cool to see if things go full circle.

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- That's right. So how do you
put yourself into perspective?

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Who's Joe Spearin?

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- Joe Spearin grew up in West Valley.

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Yeah. Obviously same. And,

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- And we weren't, we were never
part of a gang. I mean, we

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- Never part of any gangs.

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- <laugh> probably, I guess
I used to speak by myself,

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- Missed out on that opportunity.

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<laugh>. Yeah. Granger High School,

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served a mission to Brazil.

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Cool. Uh, port Brazil,
came home, got married

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to another Granger alumni.

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That's right. And have four children now.

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I have three sons and a
daughter who are all teenagers.

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So that obviously
occupies a lot of my time

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and focus outside of men's work
and other things that I do.

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And they've been pretty
solely dedicated to men's work

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for the past five years or so.

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Really feeling called to
that space first for myself

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and then being able to
share that with others

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- As well.

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Yeah. And where did that start?

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Where did that come from, you think?

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- Man, like so many people,
you know, going into 2020,

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I found myself in that kind
of cliche, existential crisis,

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midlife crisis thing,

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and found myself in the middle
of a lot of panic, a lot

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of fear, a lot of anxiety.

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And covid just fast forward,
expedited all of that greatly.

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And, uh, it got pretty dark.

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It got pretty hard and
got to a point to where

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I felt like I had done all the

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things that I was supposed to do.

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And it still didn't feel like I had a lot

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of alleviation from any of
those negative feelings.

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So, as kind of a Hail Mary,
I went to an event in October

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of 2020 with an organization
called Sacred Sons.

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And the guys in the marketing pitchers

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do not look like me at all.

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<laugh>. It didn't feel
like it was my people,

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quote unquote, but it changed my life.

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And there was this massive catalyst for

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awareness, for accountability.

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And from that place, it, it kind

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of was the springboard
into the work for me.

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- Yeah. Yeah.

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And, and these type of
experience can, you know,

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they can awaken the heart
of a man in unique ways.

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And, and, and that's what I,

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because if we had more
Joe spirits in, in all

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of our quorums, it's like, wow,

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we're gonna do something cool here.

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Like, there's a healthy energy
coming from you. Really.

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There's like, again, that

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because men are really good
at like, suffering in silence,

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secluding, like, especially
through 2020 things like,

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oh yeah, okay, I, I don't
wanna show weakness.

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Right. Like these natural things.

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And so by helping men really connect and

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and awakening to that, there can

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be a lot of strength that's offered.

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- Well, yeah, that was really
one of my first introductions.

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As I went to this retreat,

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they lined us up across from each other.

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And obviously in the midst
of everything with masks,

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they had us put on
these bandanas as masks.

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And they lined us up and
they said, all right,

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this man across from you, remove your mask

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and tell him what you're struggling with.

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Tell him who you are
and who you really are.

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And the guy across from me went first.

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And the dang guy took my answers, <laugh>,

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he said the exact same things
that I was going through,

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the same things that I was feeling.

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And then I got to go and share with him.

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And then they moved everybody
down one down the down,

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and the next guy said the same things.

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And I realized, yes, we are
expert at suffering in silence,

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and we're expert at convincing ourselves

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that we're the only ones
feeling certain things.

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And the reality is, is

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that's couldn't be further from the truth.

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- Yeah. Was it hard for you

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to go into a situation like that?

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'cause you know, men have an
aversion to therapy Right.

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Or to go to a place

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and talk about their feelings,
especially with other men.

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So like, what got you to that place

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where you felt comfortable doing that?

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- You know, one of my biggest
focuses over the past couple

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of years has been shifting
the culture of you have

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to be broken or like
this close to breaking

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before you ask for help.

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Hmm. And it, it's very much in line

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with our healthcare system

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where everything is pretty reactive

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and it's about a cure
rather than prevention

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- Addressing the symptoms.

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- Yeah, exactly. And so
I had done a lot of that,

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and I, I got to that place
where I was just so desperate

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that my pride didn't matter anymore.

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I was so desperate that the mask

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that I had been maintaining
couldn't be maintained anymore.

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And I believe it's important
for us to start shifting

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that very much like our physical
health rather than waiting

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until the heart attack just
saying like, oh, hey, I,

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I might have a little bit here that I need

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to do something about and do it now.

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It's so much easier when we
address those things in the

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beginning stages rather than
waiting tele a crisis. Yeah.

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- And, and we, I would
hope that like the idea

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of elder's core is like beautiful.

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Like on paper it's like,
that is cool. Yeah.

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Like you guys have a men's
group, you get together

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and you, you know, it
used to be every week,

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but I was like every
other week, like, wow.

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But sometimes we like have the engine,

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but we just don't know how to turn it on.

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Right. Or create that place where men who

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need help can speak up,

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and oftentimes they don't
speak up at others quorum.

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They'll like, you know, schedule a point

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with the bishop maybe, or
let's do this behind doors.

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Right. And so that's,

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it's hopefully something we can figure

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out to stimulate more.

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Like, is there hope there? I mean, how,

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tell me about just like
elders quorum and approach.

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Like what should men be looking for

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or what can we consider about Elders

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- Quorum?

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You know, elders Quorum obviously
is this very interesting

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thing in and of itself to study.

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Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And
the cliche idea there is

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that the guy shows up, he
hasn't prepared for his lesson,

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he reads it, you know, word
for word from the book.

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However many men are there
all on their phone, you know,

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watching a game or just
completely disconnected.

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The elder president is desperately trying,

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and like, he's gonna be the one

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that comments and says things.

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And every one of those men
is suffering in some way,

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at least at some point in time.

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Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And
with the, the men's circles

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that I've done many times with men

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that aren't in elder
quorums, you'll get somebody

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that's courageous enough to
be the first one to say, Hey,

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I'm struggling with pornography,

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or my financial situation is not good,

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or I'm not sure how I feel
about the church even.

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Mm-Hmm. And if you'll get
somebody in another school

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that's courageous enough to
save some of these things,

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you'll see all these heads poke up.

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Like, wait, what? Yeah. We're
talking about those things.

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Oh yeah, me too. You know, whatever it is.

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I'm struggling with that too. I just

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wasn't gonna be the first one to say.

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So. Absolutely. There is hope there.

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And part of that culture
shift is finding men

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that are courageous enough to say that,

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to give everybody else the
subconscious permission they're

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looking for to do the same. Yeah.

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- As far as like, just talk
to me about like, the concept

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of brotherhood, which for me,

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like I always thought I had brotherhood.

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00:09:55,205 --> 00:09:57,205
Like I'm generally, you
do, there's sort of,

247
00:09:57,405 --> 00:09:58,405
I think most men have sort

248
00:09:58,405 --> 00:10:00,125
of these superficial
relationships, you know,

249
00:10:00,125 --> 00:10:02,285
the guys at work, maybe you know,

250
00:10:02,905 --> 00:10:04,405
the literal blood brothers, right.

251
00:10:04,405 --> 00:10:06,205
That you see the family dinner, whatever.

252
00:10:06,265 --> 00:10:07,845
But what does brotherhood

253
00:10:07,845 --> 00:10:09,085
like, what does that really look like?

254
00:10:09,545 --> 00:10:13,645
- You know, if you go back
over time, even 60 years ago,

255
00:10:14,105 --> 00:10:16,085
if you've seen the show, the
Flintstones, for example,

256
00:10:16,085 --> 00:10:17,965
Uhhuh <laugh>, you had Barney and Fred

257
00:10:17,965 --> 00:10:19,845
and they'd go to the water
Buffalo Lodge <laugh>.

258
00:10:19,845 --> 00:10:21,365
That's right. Right. And
they'd go do these things,

259
00:10:21,365 --> 00:10:23,045
wear those hat together,
they'd wear the big hats.

260
00:10:23,065 --> 00:10:25,125
And obviously it's referring
to like the Shriners

261
00:10:25,125 --> 00:10:26,485
and some of these other brotherhoods

262
00:10:26,485 --> 00:10:29,605
and organizations,
fraternities, brotherhoods,

263
00:10:29,855 --> 00:10:31,365
these are not new concepts.

264
00:10:31,905 --> 00:10:34,005
If you look back into tribes and villages

265
00:10:34,005 --> 00:10:36,965
and the ways that so many people
interacted in those smaller

266
00:10:37,045 --> 00:10:40,445
settings, even, you know,
old towns men were going

267
00:10:40,445 --> 00:10:42,725
to work together, their
sons were going with them,

268
00:10:42,725 --> 00:10:43,925
they were going hunting together.

269
00:10:43,995 --> 00:10:46,685
They were in life together.

270
00:10:47,425 --> 00:10:50,365
And what 2020 did in a horrible,

271
00:10:50,425 --> 00:10:54,085
and also really important
way is it fast forwarded

272
00:10:54,545 --> 00:10:56,325
how isolated we've become as men.

273
00:10:56,385 --> 00:10:58,845
Mm. And so, you know, people say, so

274
00:10:58,995 --> 00:11:00,405
what you, it's it's brotherhood.

275
00:11:00,595 --> 00:11:05,285
Yeah. It's an opportunity for
men to connect outside sports

276
00:11:05,355 --> 00:11:07,085
outside, outside of work.

277
00:11:07,825 --> 00:11:09,845
And generally that's about it. Mm-Hmm.

278
00:11:09,965 --> 00:11:12,765
A younger generation, there
might be like the bar scene

279
00:11:12,765 --> 00:11:14,765
or the dance club scene, or,
you know, whatever that is.

280
00:11:14,875 --> 00:11:18,005
Yeah, yeah. But there are
just very few pa places

281
00:11:18,015 --> 00:11:21,205
where men connect, especially
in any kind of authentic way.

282
00:11:21,715 --> 00:11:24,245
- Yeah. And then there's
this feeling of like,

283
00:11:24,505 --> 00:11:27,085
the idea brotherhood's cool,
like, you know, I'm good.

284
00:11:27,115 --> 00:11:30,325
Like, yeah, I've got problems,
but like, I'm good. Right.

285
00:11:30,385 --> 00:11:35,045
And then there's this sort of
heavy presence of the family.

286
00:11:35,435 --> 00:11:37,645
Like, Joe, listen, you gotta
be home with your family.

287
00:11:37,745 --> 00:11:38,765
You gotta be present there.

288
00:11:38,865 --> 00:11:40,485
You know, the kids are
going through a tough time

289
00:11:40,545 --> 00:11:41,685
or really tough years.

290
00:11:41,945 --> 00:11:45,005
So then there's this overwhelm
of the, the man feeling like,

291
00:11:45,185 --> 00:11:46,965
no, I don't have time for brotherhood.

292
00:11:47,325 --> 00:11:48,525
I need to be with my family.

293
00:11:48,715 --> 00:11:50,245
What, what comes to
mind with that dynamic?

294
00:11:50,715 --> 00:11:53,645
- Yeah. Well, two things.
One, our culture, again,

295
00:11:53,645 --> 00:11:55,725
over the past century has
really shifted into this

296
00:11:55,725 --> 00:11:57,485
idea of the lone wolf.

297
00:11:57,965 --> 00:11:59,765
Hmm. And you remember
growing up in the eighties

298
00:11:59,765 --> 00:12:01,605
and nineties, it was pretty like, cool.

299
00:12:01,935 --> 00:12:04,085
You'd have the T-shirt with
the wolf on it, Uhhuh <laugh>,

300
00:12:04,135 --> 00:12:05,525
you'd have maybe the poster in the room.

301
00:12:05,585 --> 00:12:06,845
And it was like, I'm a lone wolf.

302
00:12:07,305 --> 00:12:08,725
And we convinced men

303
00:12:08,725 --> 00:12:10,245
that not only did they not need anybody,

304
00:12:11,025 --> 00:12:12,885
but that needing somebody
meant you were weak.

305
00:12:12,905 --> 00:12:15,845
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And
so we glorified this idea of,

306
00:12:15,845 --> 00:12:16,925
I can do it all on my own.

307
00:12:17,385 --> 00:12:18,445
And then as you get older

308
00:12:18,865 --> 00:12:21,645
and your responsibilities
are increased with a family,

309
00:12:22,355 --> 00:12:25,405
with jobs, with different
things that you have, we took

310
00:12:25,405 --> 00:12:26,885
that mindset of lone wolf with us.

311
00:12:27,585 --> 00:12:30,645
And we have even less time for ourselves.

312
00:12:31,065 --> 00:12:33,165
We have even less time for
connection and brotherhood.

313
00:12:33,505 --> 00:12:35,405
And that is by far, the number one thing

314
00:12:35,405 --> 00:12:38,205
that men tell me is their
obstacle to connecting

315
00:12:38,205 --> 00:12:39,685
with each other is, well,
I just don't have time.

316
00:12:39,865 --> 00:12:43,085
Mm. And we've developed this
really kind of glorification

317
00:12:43,085 --> 00:12:45,445
of the masochist where
if I'm not suffering,

318
00:12:45,795 --> 00:12:47,365
that must mean I'm not doing enough.

319
00:12:47,625 --> 00:12:50,565
Mm. And you know, we can
go further into that,

320
00:12:50,745 --> 00:12:52,405
but that's really a lot
of what that's about.

321
00:12:53,005 --> 00:12:56,085
I have to bleed myself
dry for other people,

322
00:12:56,305 --> 00:12:57,725
and if I'm not, well,

323
00:12:57,725 --> 00:12:59,205
then I'm not just doing,
I'm not doing enough.

324
00:12:59,315 --> 00:13:02,005
- Yeah. And so I don't
get time for brotherhood

325
00:13:02,005 --> 00:13:03,525
because I got too busy bleeding dry.

326
00:13:03,635 --> 00:13:06,445
Yeah. You know, you talk about like our,

327
00:13:06,465 --> 00:13:08,325
our ancestors, the way villages worked.

328
00:13:08,325 --> 00:13:09,765
Right. Or even, you know, we think

329
00:13:09,765 --> 00:13:11,005
of the greatest generation

330
00:13:11,215 --> 00:13:12,805
where these are men who went to war.

331
00:13:12,975 --> 00:13:16,165
Right. And I just finished
watching, um, I know it took me

332
00:13:16,165 --> 00:13:18,725
so long to watch this, but the,
the Band of Brothers series,

333
00:13:19,305 --> 00:13:20,525
and I mean, so inspiring.

334
00:13:20,585 --> 00:13:21,765
See these men coming together and,

335
00:13:22,105 --> 00:13:23,285
and the connection they build,

336
00:13:23,625 --> 00:13:25,925
and there's literally sitting
in foxholes, you know,

337
00:13:26,165 --> 00:13:28,885
fighting the enemy and we're in 2024.

338
00:13:28,955 --> 00:13:32,085
Like, I really, I know
we live in a crazy world,

339
00:13:32,085 --> 00:13:33,525
but it's like a different crazy, right.

340
00:13:33,645 --> 00:13:35,405
I don't expect like all of our young men

341
00:13:35,405 --> 00:13:37,205
to be drafted into the
army and sent overseas

342
00:13:37,265 --> 00:13:38,325
and fight the sea power.

343
00:13:38,325 --> 00:13:39,565
And even if they were drafted, they'd

344
00:13:39,565 --> 00:13:40,645
just be flying drones or something.

345
00:13:40,645 --> 00:13:44,365
Right. Where at the same
time, like, we need like

346
00:13:44,405 --> 00:13:46,845
that connection with men to
like go to war with them, go

347
00:13:46,845 --> 00:13:48,645
to battle, because there is a battle.

348
00:13:48,785 --> 00:13:50,765
We, we were born into a world at war,

349
00:13:51,305 --> 00:13:52,605
but we often don't realize that.

350
00:13:52,625 --> 00:13:54,525
So we think like, well, why
don't I need brotherhood?

351
00:13:54,525 --> 00:13:56,205
Like, it's not like we're
gonna go to war together.

352
00:13:56,205 --> 00:13:57,965
Like you're at war together. Right.

353
00:13:58,345 --> 00:13:59,525
And so just that need of,

354
00:13:59,945 --> 00:14:02,085
and that's why I'm, I'm
really wrestling with trying

355
00:14:02,085 --> 00:14:04,925
to help men understand like,
you know, you need brotherhood.

356
00:14:04,925 --> 00:14:07,245
Yeah. Family's great and yeah,
you need to be there for 'em.

357
00:14:07,245 --> 00:14:11,205
But it's the brotherhood where
you almost like can re renew

358
00:14:11,225 --> 00:14:13,845
and strength so that you can
return to the family Yeah.

359
00:14:13,845 --> 00:14:15,765
And predict the family and
be present with the family

360
00:14:15,825 --> 00:14:18,685
and be you rather than
like a dad pass out again.

361
00:14:18,685 --> 00:14:21,685
He just has nothing left to
give, you know? Yeah. It's

362
00:14:21,685 --> 00:14:22,685
- Tough.

363
00:14:22,685 --> 00:14:25,285
You know, the idea of the
warrior is one of those things

364
00:14:25,305 --> 00:14:27,485
that's, I believe needs to be reframed

365
00:14:27,985 --> 00:14:29,085
and kind of redefined.

366
00:14:29,585 --> 00:14:31,845
Not to say that there aren't conflicts.

367
00:14:32,345 --> 00:14:34,605
Not to say that there
aren't opposing forces,

368
00:14:35,465 --> 00:14:38,965
but generally speaking, the
war that we fight, the battle

369
00:14:38,965 --> 00:14:41,845
that we fight, fight is
mostly against ourselves.

370
00:14:42,705 --> 00:14:44,525
And that's one of the
things that's important

371
00:14:44,525 --> 00:14:46,285
to me in brotherhood and in the

372
00:14:46,285 --> 00:14:47,445
brotherhoods that I've created.

373
00:14:48,145 --> 00:14:49,405
We need to come gather together

374
00:14:49,465 --> 00:14:51,845
as Republicans against
the Democrats, <laugh>,

375
00:14:51,945 --> 00:14:55,005
or we need to gather together
as X group against this group.

376
00:14:55,465 --> 00:14:58,485
And a lot of people drive
fidelity towards their

377
00:14:58,485 --> 00:15:01,205
organization by saying
it's us against them.

378
00:15:01,825 --> 00:15:04,485
And for me, the idea of
brotherhood is it's me against me

379
00:15:04,905 --> 00:15:06,805
and I want to be the
best version of myself,

380
00:15:07,505 --> 00:15:10,925
and will you help me be
the best version of myself?

381
00:15:11,345 --> 00:15:13,765
So when we go to war together
every day, when we have this,

382
00:15:13,765 --> 00:15:15,205
this cause that we're fighting for,

383
00:15:15,835 --> 00:15:17,245
it's still personal evolution,

384
00:15:17,945 --> 00:15:19,165
but we're doing that together.

385
00:15:19,625 --> 00:15:22,005
And so when I help you be
a better version of you,

386
00:15:22,005 --> 00:15:24,925
and you help you, you help
me be a better version of me,

387
00:15:25,675 --> 00:15:27,005
that creates connection.

388
00:15:27,075 --> 00:15:30,525
Yeah. And that's exciting,
that's sustainable for me.

389
00:15:30,595 --> 00:15:31,765
- Yeah. That's really helpful.

390
00:15:32,515 --> 00:15:35,765
What would you say, like if
an elders corps presidency's

391
00:15:35,765 --> 00:15:37,725
listening, it's like, okay, I
get it, Joe, like brotherhood,

392
00:15:37,755 --> 00:15:40,125
like how would you coach them on?

393
00:15:40,125 --> 00:15:41,565
Just like, how, how can we stimulate

394
00:15:41,565 --> 00:15:43,045
that more in the setting of Elders Corps?

395
00:15:43,045 --> 00:15:44,565
Because we sort of have
this model of like,

396
00:15:44,955 --> 00:15:47,765
this guy stands up, calls
em, some say prayer,

397
00:15:47,765 --> 00:15:49,845
there's announcements, then
we jump into the general

398
00:15:49,845 --> 00:15:52,085
conference talk, and then we go

399
00:15:52,085 --> 00:15:53,205
pick our kids up and go home.

400
00:15:53,205 --> 00:15:54,685
Like, that's like the general model.

401
00:15:54,745 --> 00:15:57,325
So how would you coach
a elder presidency to

402
00:15:58,045 --> 00:16:00,685
reunite this sense of
brotherhood in a quorum setting?

403
00:16:01,345 --> 00:16:02,645
- So, as actually spoken

404
00:16:02,645 --> 00:16:04,805
with a few other squirm
presidents about this,

405
00:16:05,305 --> 00:16:06,725
the first piece of advice I've given

406
00:16:06,825 --> 00:16:08,045
is take off your own mask.

407
00:16:08,305 --> 00:16:11,445
Mm. Which as a leader is a
really scary thing to do.

408
00:16:11,985 --> 00:16:14,085
So well, I'm the one that's
supposed to have it all together

409
00:16:14,105 --> 00:16:16,005
so I can help everybody
else keep it all together.

410
00:16:16,425 --> 00:16:18,565
And that's exactly what's
kind of killing this. Mm.

411
00:16:18,945 --> 00:16:20,925
So if I am the elders
president and I get up

412
00:16:20,925 --> 00:16:22,645
and I'm authentic and I'm honest,

413
00:16:22,645 --> 00:16:24,925
and they say, guys, I
don't wanna be here today.

414
00:16:25,425 --> 00:16:27,605
I'm really struggling.
I'm struggling with this.

415
00:16:27,985 --> 00:16:29,365
Or I'm not enthused about this,

416
00:16:30,025 --> 00:16:31,845
or I'm really upset with my wife,

417
00:16:32,185 --> 00:16:33,925
or I'm really worried about these things

418
00:16:33,925 --> 00:16:35,885
with my kids, whatever it is.

419
00:16:35,945 --> 00:16:38,885
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, if
you'll be the first one to lead

420
00:16:38,885 --> 00:16:41,885
with that authenticity,
inevitably others will follow.

421
00:16:42,265 --> 00:16:44,365
And that doesn't mean you
have to throw away the script

422
00:16:44,625 --> 00:16:47,325
as far as how we do classes
and some of those things,

423
00:16:47,785 --> 00:16:49,685
but I would in instruct the instructors

424
00:16:49,685 --> 00:16:53,405
to do the same thing, what
you're teaching here, use this

425
00:16:53,405 --> 00:16:56,325
as your, your format and then
talk about it in real life.

426
00:16:56,345 --> 00:16:58,085
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
talk about your own life

427
00:16:58,085 --> 00:17:01,085
and what this is and how you
are dealing with this thing,

428
00:17:01,145 --> 00:17:02,485
how you're struggling

429
00:17:02,485 --> 00:17:04,685
or how you've overcome
whatever thing that's there.

430
00:17:05,125 --> 00:17:07,445
Hmm. And if we can start just, just

431
00:17:07,475 --> 00:17:10,925
with authentic conversation
that has a huge impact

432
00:17:11,745 --> 00:17:16,045
and the connection that I
feel to you when I know, wait,

433
00:17:16,045 --> 00:17:19,645
you're not perfect either,
man, that changes everything.

434
00:17:19,795 --> 00:17:21,765
Yeah. That's the first place. That's

435
00:17:21,765 --> 00:17:22,765
- Cool.

436
00:17:22,765 --> 00:17:24,605
That's cool. Now you,
this journey of yours sort

437
00:17:24,605 --> 00:17:26,245
of led you into creating, is it Utah

438
00:17:26,255 --> 00:17:27,485
Men's Circle? Is that what it's

439
00:17:27,485 --> 00:17:28,485
- Called?

440
00:17:28,485 --> 00:17:29,605
Yeah. It started with Utah Men's Circle

441
00:17:30,305 --> 00:17:31,605
and Utah Men's Circle.

442
00:17:32,235 --> 00:17:35,005
It's a, a free gathering
that we do twice a month.

443
00:17:35,315 --> 00:17:37,925
It's the first Monday of every
month in the third Wednesday.

444
00:17:38,505 --> 00:17:40,205
And we've just, we've
been all over the valley.

445
00:17:40,625 --> 00:17:42,805
Uh, we find libraries or parks

446
00:17:42,825 --> 00:17:44,525
or backyards or whatever it is.

447
00:17:45,105 --> 00:17:48,765
And we'll get anywhere
from 40 to 80 men together.

448
00:17:49,545 --> 00:17:50,965
And it's an opportunity for two

449
00:17:50,965 --> 00:17:53,365
and a half hours to talk about real life.

450
00:17:53,725 --> 00:17:56,885
Hmm. And we'll start with
a check-in what's my name

451
00:17:57,065 --> 00:17:58,165
and what's present for me?

452
00:17:58,165 --> 00:18:00,605
What am I feeling? Because
many men haven't thought about

453
00:18:00,605 --> 00:18:02,085
that in months <laugh>.

454
00:18:02,085 --> 00:18:03,965
That's so true. So you, you'll
see it so, so many times

455
00:18:03,985 --> 00:18:05,405
and it's someone's turned to speak.

456
00:18:05,875 --> 00:18:09,645
Well, my name is Bill and,
and what am I feeling? Mm-Hmm.

457
00:18:09,685 --> 00:18:11,965
<affirmative>. And they have
to, I think I'm feeling kind

458
00:18:11,965 --> 00:18:14,685
of sad or I think there's some fear

459
00:18:15,185 --> 00:18:16,565
and just seeing them do that.

460
00:18:16,745 --> 00:18:19,885
Mm. And then I don't say,
aha. See you're weak.

461
00:18:19,905 --> 00:18:21,965
You're feeling fear <laugh>.
I'm actually saying.

462
00:18:22,105 --> 00:18:23,645
Oh, me too. Yeah.

463
00:18:23,715 --> 00:18:25,205
It's not just you and it's not just me,

464
00:18:25,745 --> 00:18:28,125
but it's this opportunity that
we have to get together in,

465
00:18:28,145 --> 00:18:30,485
in those ways a couple
times a month. Yeah.

466
00:18:30,655 --> 00:18:31,965
- Those times. I really appreciate that

467
00:18:31,965 --> 00:18:34,045
because sometimes there's
this feeling of like, okay,

468
00:18:34,065 --> 00:18:36,165
so an elders corps may
have to be like, alright,

469
00:18:36,165 --> 00:18:37,365
everybody turn to your neighbor and tell

470
00:18:37,365 --> 00:18:38,405
them you're struggling with.

471
00:18:38,405 --> 00:18:39,845
And it's like, I don't wanna do that.

472
00:18:40,065 --> 00:18:42,125
But even just inviting the men to like,

473
00:18:42,155 --> 00:18:43,325
just be going a place,

474
00:18:43,675 --> 00:18:45,405
even in your own mind,
like, what are you feeling?

475
00:18:45,405 --> 00:18:47,885
What are you struggling with?
Like that exercise alone sort

476
00:18:47,885 --> 00:18:51,285
of shakes 'em out of their,
you know, their the haziness

477
00:18:51,285 --> 00:18:54,165
and their, their brain and
thinking like, oh yeah, I am kind

478
00:18:54,165 --> 00:18:55,405
of feeling sort of weighed down.

479
00:18:55,405 --> 00:18:56,725
Like it has been a tough week.

480
00:18:57,225 --> 00:18:58,165
And I just, I just came

481
00:18:58,165 --> 00:18:59,165
to church 'cause that's just what I do.

482
00:18:59,265 --> 00:19:01,925
And, but now I'm thinking about
it like, wow, that's heavy.

483
00:19:01,985 --> 00:19:04,405
You know? And then not that
everybody needs to share,

484
00:19:04,425 --> 00:19:06,245
but there, I've seen it time

485
00:19:06,245 --> 00:19:08,245
and time again, you're,
you can invite them.

486
00:19:08,275 --> 00:19:09,285
Does anybody wanna share?

487
00:19:09,385 --> 00:19:12,085
And there'll be that one
brave soul that raises hand

488
00:19:12,265 --> 00:19:14,725
and then that guy's like, well,
if he did it, I could share.

489
00:19:14,745 --> 00:19:17,645
And then it's amazing what
men will do to open up

490
00:19:17,745 --> 00:19:18,965
and you just invite them.

491
00:19:18,965 --> 00:19:22,205
You don't force them. Right.
Yeah. But it's, it's amazing.

492
00:19:22,465 --> 00:19:23,845
So in this, these men's circles,

493
00:19:24,265 --> 00:19:25,685
you sort of sort of start there.

494
00:19:25,885 --> 00:19:28,605
Anything else with the structure
of, of these gatherings?

495
00:19:29,015 --> 00:19:31,165
- We'll generally try to
break out into groups of three

496
00:19:31,165 --> 00:19:34,405
or four so that men have
a, a deeper opportunity

497
00:19:34,465 --> 00:19:35,685
to connect with a few other men.

498
00:19:35,685 --> 00:19:37,605
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And again, it,

499
00:19:37,675 --> 00:19:41,045
it's always very quiet,
very standoffish at first.

500
00:19:41,465 --> 00:19:43,285
And then as we introduce
these smaller groups

501
00:19:43,385 --> 00:19:47,005
and they start talking about
just life, okay, each one

502
00:19:47,005 --> 00:19:48,845
of you has two minutes
to talk about this thing.

503
00:19:49,185 --> 00:19:51,445
You're always like, okay,
like, let's stop. Mm-Hmm.

504
00:19:51,485 --> 00:19:52,525
<affirmative> because, oh man,

505
00:19:52,525 --> 00:19:53,685
the, the door has finally opened.

506
00:19:53,845 --> 00:19:55,445
I can talk about this stuff. And

507
00:19:55,445 --> 00:19:56,685
it's really beautiful to witness.

508
00:19:57,225 --> 00:19:59,205
And then we've had lots
of different kind of

509
00:20:00,005 --> 00:20:01,085
exercises and things we'll do.

510
00:20:01,085 --> 00:20:02,525
There might be a guided meditation

511
00:20:03,105 --> 00:20:05,125
or, you know, a lot of different things

512
00:20:05,125 --> 00:20:06,405
that we'll do like that Mm-Hmm.

513
00:20:06,445 --> 00:20:08,805
<affirmative> that just give
men a chance to slow down

514
00:20:09,265 --> 00:20:11,405
and to think and to feel in a way

515
00:20:11,405 --> 00:20:12,925
that we're not accustomed to doing. Yeah.

516
00:20:13,145 --> 00:20:15,885
- Now these are concerns, just
general gatherings. Mm-Hmm.

517
00:20:15,925 --> 00:20:18,165
<affirmative>. Is there
a, a god component to it

518
00:20:18,305 --> 00:20:20,485
or do you just invite men
to show up where they're at?

519
00:20:21,035 --> 00:20:24,525
- Yeah. There's not really
any kind of ideology or dogma.

520
00:20:24,745 --> 00:20:26,685
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> within the Utah men

521
00:20:26,685 --> 00:20:28,325
circle, you come as you are.

522
00:20:28,325 --> 00:20:30,685
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
And so as they're in Utah,

523
00:20:30,785 --> 00:20:33,445
we have people from all ranges
within the church Mm-Hmm.

524
00:20:33,485 --> 00:20:35,765
<affirmative> those that
are highly active to those

525
00:20:35,845 --> 00:20:37,165
that have never even heard of it.

526
00:20:37,865 --> 00:20:40,365
And it's the beautiful thing
that they get to come together

527
00:20:40,555 --> 00:20:42,925
because you'll have people
that have, have left the church

528
00:20:43,355 --> 00:20:45,405
that are having these deep
conversations with somebody

529
00:20:45,405 --> 00:20:46,965
that's very devout to it.

530
00:20:47,045 --> 00:20:49,405
It Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And they get

531
00:20:49,405 --> 00:20:50,765
to talk and they get to share.

532
00:20:51,305 --> 00:20:52,725
And we created an environment

533
00:20:52,725 --> 00:20:54,725
that I don't think really
exists in the world today

534
00:20:54,935 --> 00:20:56,645
where we don't have to have to agree

535
00:20:56,905 --> 00:20:59,045
and we can still love each
other and respect each other.

536
00:20:59,585 --> 00:21:01,285
And it's one of the things
that I think really makes

537
00:21:01,285 --> 00:21:05,925
that a unique space for
myself, I believe for,

538
00:21:05,985 --> 00:21:09,765
for anybody some sort of belief
in a higher power serves you

539
00:21:09,985 --> 00:21:11,605
as you do that type of work.

540
00:21:11,745 --> 00:21:13,885
Mm. Embodying healthy masculinity,

541
00:21:14,425 --> 00:21:17,645
but it's not something that
we require, you know, to be x,

542
00:21:17,765 --> 00:21:19,245
y, z to come join us. Yeah.

543
00:21:19,245 --> 00:21:21,445
- That makes sense. And
then is last about an

544
00:21:21,445 --> 00:21:23,045
hour or what, what would you say? No,

545
00:21:23,055 --> 00:21:24,445
- We'll start at about six 30

546
00:21:24,945 --> 00:21:27,445
and at nine o'clock we kind
of end the official thing.

547
00:21:27,585 --> 00:21:31,005
Oh, cool. And then wherever we're at, 30

548
00:21:31,025 --> 00:21:32,965
or 40 minutes, the guys can kind of Yeah.

549
00:21:32,965 --> 00:21:34,325
Hang out and chat a little bit more after

550
00:21:34,325 --> 00:21:35,325
- That.

551
00:21:35,325 --> 00:21:35,645
Yeah. And so, and again,

552
00:21:35,645 --> 00:21:36,885
it's twice a month that you did this.

553
00:21:36,885 --> 00:21:38,885
Right? Yeah. And this
is something, I mean,

554
00:21:39,305 --> 00:21:41,725
and this is sort of sometimes
we feel like there's this

555
00:21:41,885 --> 00:21:43,605
pressure as elders quorum ies, like,

556
00:21:43,605 --> 00:21:45,925
we gotta solve the problem
within Elders quorum like

557
00:21:45,925 --> 00:21:47,765
that 45 minutes or so.

558
00:21:47,895 --> 00:21:51,565
Right. But sometimes it's
even easier, you know, go

559
00:21:51,565 --> 00:21:53,445
to Elders Quorum, talk about
the general conference talk,

560
00:21:53,505 --> 00:21:56,845
get into it, but even
having a secondary location

561
00:21:56,845 --> 00:21:59,085
that's be more casual
that make, I can show up

562
00:21:59,425 --> 00:22:01,565
how they most comfortable
maybe without the tie.

563
00:22:01,675 --> 00:22:02,725
Yeah. And sure. And,

564
00:22:02,785 --> 00:22:05,045
and just have that type of experience too.

565
00:22:05,045 --> 00:22:08,125
Right. They, and it's just gathering

566
00:22:08,285 --> 00:22:09,845
'em and starting the
conversation. Right. Yeah.

567
00:22:10,185 --> 00:22:11,645
- And I, I believe that that existed

568
00:22:12,595 --> 00:22:14,805
more than it does today,
where we would even

569
00:22:14,805 --> 00:22:17,725
during the week, have more
kind of activities Yeah.

570
00:22:17,725 --> 00:22:20,885
For the elders quorum, whether
that was skeet shooting

571
00:22:21,145 --> 00:22:23,485
or, you know, go watch the game together,

572
00:22:23,885 --> 00:22:26,365
whatever the thing was, the
thing doesn't matter so much

573
00:22:26,365 --> 00:22:28,445
as the fact that we get to
get together and talk Yeah.

574
00:22:28,625 --> 00:22:29,965
And be connected. Yeah.

575
00:22:30,425 --> 00:22:32,885
And I think that there are
still some other swarms that do

576
00:22:32,885 --> 00:22:34,525
that, but I know for a lot of them

577
00:22:35,225 --> 00:22:38,525
it becomes about the activity
more than let's have the

578
00:22:38,525 --> 00:22:39,645
conversation during the activity.

579
00:22:39,675 --> 00:22:41,005
- Yeah. Right. We were more worried

580
00:22:41,005 --> 00:22:43,085
that someone brought the treats or Yeah.

581
00:22:43,105 --> 00:22:45,445
Rather than just having
the experience. Right.

582
00:22:45,445 --> 00:22:46,885
And, and that's the thing is that like,

583
00:22:47,025 --> 00:22:50,005
remove the responsibility
of, you know, like you said,

584
00:22:50,005 --> 00:22:51,565
just show up at a park or you don't have

585
00:22:51,565 --> 00:22:54,285
to like clean your house and
threaten your kids to be quiet,

586
00:22:54,585 --> 00:22:57,125
you know, all these things
just like, just make it as easy

587
00:22:57,125 --> 00:22:58,845
as possible, but get those men together.

588
00:22:59,365 --> 00:23:02,005
- Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
- Anything else worth mentioning

589
00:23:02,005 --> 00:23:04,005
as far as the, the need for brotherhood

590
00:23:04,025 --> 00:23:05,285
beyond Elders Quorum?

591
00:23:05,735 --> 00:23:09,485
- Again, having done this work
really all over the world,

592
00:23:09,985 --> 00:23:12,005
and then for the past
couple of years, focusing

593
00:23:12,565 --> 00:23:15,205
specifically in Utah,
outside of the Elders quorum,

594
00:23:15,365 --> 00:23:17,645
there are a lot of members
of the church that,

595
00:23:17,795 --> 00:23:20,245
that aren't going, that
aren't actively engaged there.

596
00:23:20,865 --> 00:23:22,485
And when you can create the environment

597
00:23:22,485 --> 00:23:24,285
to still get together and just talk,

598
00:23:24,785 --> 00:23:28,405
not necessarily even having to
preach that falls into place

599
00:23:28,905 --> 00:23:30,725
for those that want to go there.

600
00:23:30,725 --> 00:23:33,485
For those that want understand
that those that want

601
00:23:33,485 --> 00:23:35,925
to reengage in that aspect
of life that happens.

602
00:23:36,625 --> 00:23:37,685
But just creating a place

603
00:23:37,745 --> 00:23:41,045
for everybody in your work
boundary to get together

604
00:23:41,105 --> 00:23:43,605
and say, I don't care if you are active,

605
00:23:43,725 --> 00:23:45,765
I don't care if you're
even a member, come here

606
00:23:45,765 --> 00:23:46,925
and experience brotherhood.

607
00:23:47,025 --> 00:23:51,885
Mm. And if you do that, the
connection is inevitable.

608
00:23:52,385 --> 00:23:54,645
And in that connection
then there's opportunities,

609
00:23:54,845 --> 00:23:58,845
I believe, for nurturing
a lot more personal belief

610
00:23:58,845 --> 00:24:00,885
or bearing testimony or, you
know, things like that as well.

611
00:24:01,225 --> 00:24:03,725
And not that that's ever even the motive,

612
00:24:04,425 --> 00:24:06,085
but I think when we start with that,

613
00:24:06,535 --> 00:24:08,085
we're gonna do this activity so

614
00:24:08,085 --> 00:24:12,285
that we can bring people back
to church that's felt if it's,

615
00:24:12,285 --> 00:24:13,565
we're gonna do this activity so

616
00:24:13,565 --> 00:24:14,965
that we can unite and connect.

617
00:24:15,425 --> 00:24:18,405
And then inevitably,
some people will realize

618
00:24:18,405 --> 00:24:19,445
that they want this more often.

619
00:24:19,445 --> 00:24:23,045
They, they wanna reconnect
to other men, to God,

620
00:24:23,105 --> 00:24:26,045
to themselves, to their
testimony that that will happen.

621
00:24:26,275 --> 00:24:27,285
- Yeah. Yeah.

622
00:24:27,285 --> 00:24:28,765
And that's the thing, like sometimes we,

623
00:24:28,865 --> 00:24:29,925
we have such a tradition

624
00:24:29,925 --> 00:24:31,925
of formalizing meetings
or gatherings, right.

625
00:24:32,065 --> 00:24:33,685
Who has the opening
prayer, the closing prayer,

626
00:24:33,715 --> 00:24:34,965
like who's presiding, right?

627
00:24:34,965 --> 00:24:38,965
Like, having these more casual
gatherings can really be

628
00:24:38,975 --> 00:24:42,845
frank for people, even to the
point of like, uh, you know,

629
00:24:42,845 --> 00:24:44,845
there, there's me and this
other brother in my ward.

630
00:24:45,015 --> 00:24:47,445
We've been doing these
like guys movie nights

631
00:24:47,745 --> 00:24:50,725
during the week, but we do
it like we're not, neither

632
00:24:50,725 --> 00:24:52,485
of us are in the elders
court presidency or,

633
00:24:52,485 --> 00:24:54,445
but we're just doing 'em
and inviting men to come.

634
00:24:54,985 --> 00:24:57,125
But there's almost, that's
almost like an advantage to us

635
00:24:57,225 --> 00:24:59,485
of like, no, we're just like gathering

636
00:24:59,625 --> 00:25:02,205
and there's no, like,
obviously we're in Utah,

637
00:25:02,225 --> 00:25:04,005
so it's like everybody in
the neighborhood, so it goes

638
00:25:04,005 --> 00:25:06,325
to church, but, but
there's no feeling of like,

639
00:25:06,325 --> 00:25:08,165
this is a churchy thing
or a spiritual thing.

640
00:25:08,165 --> 00:25:09,165
We're just gathering men.

641
00:25:09,625 --> 00:25:11,885
And even this past week we
thought, well, why don't we like,

642
00:25:11,885 --> 00:25:15,205
because we always felt like
there's this more energy

643
00:25:15,205 --> 00:25:17,845
around connecting as men rather
than getting to the movie.

644
00:25:17,915 --> 00:25:20,285
Yeah. Even though it's a cool
guy movie or whatever. Right.

645
00:25:20,345 --> 00:25:22,165
And so we thought, Hey, why
don't this week we just,

646
00:25:22,505 --> 00:25:24,045
he had the idea, let's have like a,

647
00:25:24,165 --> 00:25:26,245
a hot sauce gathering every,

648
00:25:26,245 --> 00:25:28,245
we bring in our favorite hot
sauce, we get some wings going

649
00:25:28,245 --> 00:25:30,765
or whatever, but let's not worry
about getting to the movie.

650
00:25:30,775 --> 00:25:32,645
Let's just chat. Maybe it's
an hour, maybe it's longer,

651
00:25:32,665 --> 00:25:34,365
but we're just gathering,
we're just chatting.

652
00:25:34,665 --> 00:25:36,325
And I've even had the thought

653
00:25:36,325 --> 00:25:38,245
of inviting non-members in the area.

654
00:25:38,445 --> 00:25:40,645
'cause it's, there's
not this worry of like,

655
00:25:40,995 --> 00:25:43,725
then they're like, they'll
turn on the spiritual thing

656
00:25:43,745 --> 00:25:45,845
or like, you know, there'll
be a testimony meeting.

657
00:25:45,995 --> 00:25:47,445
It's just no, we're just gathering. Right.

658
00:25:47,545 --> 00:25:49,645
And that, that's the
beginning of maybe some

659
00:25:49,645 --> 00:25:50,805
of those men will be
like, you know, I kind

660
00:25:50,805 --> 00:25:51,885
of feel like I need more God in my life.

661
00:25:51,885 --> 00:25:54,005
Well join us on Sunday. You know? Yeah.

662
00:25:54,105 --> 00:25:56,245
And, but it's just that,
that simple gathering of,

663
00:25:56,315 --> 00:25:57,485
it's not so formalized,

664
00:25:57,545 --> 00:25:58,005
- You know? Yeah.

665
00:25:58,395 --> 00:26:00,445
- Talk to me about, and you've
touched on this a little bit,

666
00:26:00,445 --> 00:26:02,525
this, this feeling of vilification of men,

667
00:26:02,525 --> 00:26:04,805
and this is maybe a
broader society discussion,

668
00:26:04,825 --> 00:26:06,285
or how would you unpack it?

669
00:26:06,715 --> 00:26:08,005
- Yeah. And this is one of those places

670
00:26:08,005 --> 00:26:10,365
where I feel like even
talking about it is kind

671
00:26:10,365 --> 00:26:12,485
of painting a target
on your back. <laugh>,

672
00:26:13,225 --> 00:26:15,085
- You're gonna get
canceled, Joe. Yeah. Right.

673
00:26:15,985 --> 00:26:18,445
- As I'm a white heterosexual Christian,

674
00:26:18,445 --> 00:26:19,565
middle-aged man, <laugh>.

675
00:26:19,565 --> 00:26:23,045
Like, I'm all the things
that is wrong with the world

676
00:26:23,715 --> 00:26:25,005
according to a lot of the world.

677
00:26:25,115 --> 00:26:27,205
Yeah. Yeah. It's really been interesting

678
00:26:27,305 --> 00:26:29,205
to step into different organizations

679
00:26:29,295 --> 00:26:32,685
where there is more
diversity within masculinity,

680
00:26:33,105 --> 00:26:36,525
and whether that's skin
color or personal belief

681
00:26:36,625 --> 00:26:40,285
or orientation or social
class or economic class,

682
00:26:41,065 --> 00:26:45,125
and getting these men
together, inevitably, one

683
00:26:45,125 --> 00:26:48,285
of the biggest stressors
on men is this feeling

684
00:26:48,585 --> 00:26:50,205
of blame.

685
00:26:51,385 --> 00:26:52,565
And that anything

686
00:26:52,565 --> 00:26:54,965
and everything that is
experienced in the world

687
00:26:55,545 --> 00:26:56,725
is somehow my fault.

688
00:26:57,405 --> 00:26:59,945
And I'm really trying hard
to do all the right things.

689
00:27:00,085 --> 00:27:02,385
And I'm really trying hard
to show up in good ways.

690
00:27:02,605 --> 00:27:05,385
And I'm really trying
hard to love my family

691
00:27:05,445 --> 00:27:06,945
and love my neighbor and do these things.

692
00:27:07,805 --> 00:27:09,025
And it still feels like

693
00:27:09,265 --> 00:27:11,425
whenever anything goes wrong, it's on me.

694
00:27:11,845 --> 00:27:15,265
And I kind of get lumped
into this big group that is,

695
00:27:15,325 --> 00:27:16,505
is the problem of society.

696
00:27:17,125 --> 00:27:20,745
And we know why, we know how
men have shown up in the past,

697
00:27:21,145 --> 00:27:24,505
historically, we know where
men have been misaligned.

698
00:27:25,125 --> 00:27:26,825
We know the problems that we've caused.

699
00:27:27,645 --> 00:27:31,825
And there are so many men that
are doing things differently,

700
00:27:32,445 --> 00:27:35,865
but are still feeling like not
only am I accountable for all

701
00:27:35,865 --> 00:27:39,745
of my actions, but I'm accountable
for how everybody feels.

702
00:27:40,205 --> 00:27:42,985
Mm. And you know, we
can dive into that kind

703
00:27:42,985 --> 00:27:44,145
of redefining accountability

704
00:27:44,285 --> 00:27:46,785
and this idea of the
nice guy where I'm trying

705
00:27:46,785 --> 00:27:48,585
to manage everything outside of myself.

706
00:27:48,585 --> 00:27:52,745
Right. But in this vilification
of the masculine, a lot

707
00:27:52,745 --> 00:27:54,185
of men that I talk to are like, you know,

708
00:27:54,225 --> 00:27:56,465
I just wanna go live in a cabin
in the middle of the woods

709
00:27:56,605 --> 00:27:57,985
and not talk to anybody ever.

710
00:27:58,495 --> 00:28:00,185
Yeah. And there are a
lot of men that do that.

711
00:28:00,925 --> 00:28:03,145
And so rather than doing that

712
00:28:03,165 --> 00:28:06,145
and isolating further,
we're gathering together

713
00:28:06,205 --> 00:28:08,785
and saying, what can we
look at in ourselves?

714
00:28:08,785 --> 00:28:09,905
What can we improve on?

715
00:28:10,165 --> 00:28:12,625
And also, what aren't we going
to take accountability for

716
00:28:12,625 --> 00:28:14,785
that exists outside of ourselves?

717
00:28:14,885 --> 00:28:17,465
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But
it's exhausting a lot of men.

718
00:28:17,925 --> 00:28:19,065
And I believe this is one

719
00:28:19,065 --> 00:28:22,065
of the primary reasons
why the suicide rate is

720
00:28:22,525 --> 00:28:24,025
so much higher in men

721
00:28:24,025 --> 00:28:25,945
and so much higher in men, 30

722
00:28:25,965 --> 00:28:28,705
to 50 years old than
really any other large

723
00:28:28,705 --> 00:28:30,345
demographic like that in the world. Yeah.

724
00:28:30,775 --> 00:28:31,545
- Yeah. You know, that's,

725
00:28:32,095 --> 00:28:33,545
it's interesting how you bring up blame.

726
00:28:33,575 --> 00:28:34,825
I've never really thought of it that way.

727
00:28:34,965 --> 00:28:38,185
We, like, there's just this innate sense

728
00:28:38,185 --> 00:28:39,425
of like carrying it.

729
00:28:39,505 --> 00:28:41,985
I think it's part of like
the, the protector in us.

730
00:28:42,095 --> 00:28:44,225
It's like, oh, you need, you need safety,

731
00:28:44,285 --> 00:28:46,505
you need protection, and you
need me to carry that blame.

732
00:28:46,655 --> 00:28:47,905
Okay, I'll carry the blame.

733
00:28:48,085 --> 00:28:49,825
You know, when a man is broken, a lot

734
00:28:49,825 --> 00:28:54,225
of the coping mechanisms
turn into a, to a, some form

735
00:28:54,225 --> 00:28:57,025
of abuse, you know, where
men cope through pornography,

736
00:28:57,165 --> 00:28:58,825
men cope through seclusion

737
00:28:58,825 --> 00:29:00,505
and reject, you know,
abandoning the family.

738
00:29:00,685 --> 00:29:03,945
Men, you know, a really
broken men will be physically

739
00:29:03,945 --> 00:29:05,705
abusive or go out and get drunk and,

740
00:29:05,765 --> 00:29:07,225
and just cause all sorts of headaches.

741
00:29:07,225 --> 00:29:09,065
And then we, we carry that thinking, well,

742
00:29:09,125 --> 00:29:10,825
the problem in the world is me.

743
00:29:11,045 --> 00:29:12,865
And that's not a healthy
place to be in. Right.

744
00:29:13,165 --> 00:29:14,265
That's, that's fascinating.

745
00:29:14,765 --> 00:29:17,785
And, you know, you talk
about, here's another, like a,

746
00:29:18,465 --> 00:29:20,585
a charged term of toxic masculinity.

747
00:29:20,585 --> 00:29:22,705
Right. And I think a lot

748
00:29:22,705 --> 00:29:24,665
of us don't realize it's on a spectrum

749
00:29:24,875 --> 00:29:29,385
where on one side you have
that mean, you know, the guy

750
00:29:29,385 --> 00:29:31,425
who cuts you off and swears

751
00:29:31,445 --> 00:29:33,505
and is just a vile person to be around.

752
00:29:33,965 --> 00:29:36,505
But oftentimes you don't see
the other spectrum where it's

753
00:29:36,505 --> 00:29:39,105
that nice guy, it's like,
I'm just gonna be nice.

754
00:29:39,325 --> 00:29:41,685
And that, that's a toxic place to be in

755
00:29:41,745 --> 00:29:43,525
as well when they're overly nice

756
00:29:43,525 --> 00:29:46,085
and trying to control you
through their behaviors.

757
00:29:46,105 --> 00:29:48,365
And no, we want the real person. Right.

758
00:29:48,425 --> 00:29:49,885
You know, in, in the middle. And, and,

759
00:29:50,185 --> 00:29:52,365
and so it's really easy to vilify

760
00:29:53,205 --> 00:29:55,925
masculinity when we see
it in these unhealthy,

761
00:29:56,055 --> 00:29:57,125
toxic places. Right,

762
00:29:57,215 --> 00:29:58,215
- Right.

763
00:29:58,215 --> 00:30:00,725
Well, we've, as a society,
we've kind of come up

764
00:30:00,725 --> 00:30:03,165
with two terms to throw at anything

765
00:30:03,395 --> 00:30:04,965
that a man is doing that we don't like.

766
00:30:05,345 --> 00:30:06,965
One of them is toxic masculinity,

767
00:30:07,265 --> 00:30:08,525
the other is the patriarchy.

768
00:30:08,805 --> 00:30:10,885
Hmm. If there's anything
that happens that,

769
00:30:10,885 --> 00:30:12,965
that I'm not a fan of, it's pretty easy

770
00:30:12,965 --> 00:30:15,325
to blame toxic masculinity
or the patriarchy.

771
00:30:15,665 --> 00:30:18,325
And that requires no logical explanation.

772
00:30:18,765 --> 00:30:20,245
<laugh>, that requires no definition.

773
00:30:20,685 --> 00:30:21,765
I just, oh, that it's just toxic.

774
00:30:21,955 --> 00:30:24,765
It's just toxic masculinity.
And I'd be like, oh, okay.

775
00:30:25,085 --> 00:30:28,245
I, I, I guess. Right. But you're
right, it is on a spectrum.

776
00:30:28,625 --> 00:30:31,205
And that's one of the things
that I've taught a lot about

777
00:30:31,355 --> 00:30:34,005
with men is, again, going
back to the warrior,

778
00:30:34,005 --> 00:30:35,965
there are these different,
like masculine archetypes

779
00:30:36,785 --> 00:30:39,725
and the warrior in his
fullness, he gets things done.

780
00:30:40,265 --> 00:30:41,765
He is driven, he's ambitious,

781
00:30:42,385 --> 00:30:43,885
he is moving forward in his life

782
00:30:43,885 --> 00:30:46,365
and moving community society forward in

783
00:30:46,365 --> 00:30:47,485
real beautiful ways as well.

784
00:30:48,265 --> 00:30:49,765
And then because we are mortal,

785
00:30:49,765 --> 00:30:51,445
because we've experienced wound

786
00:30:51,465 --> 00:30:54,405
and conditioning in so many
things, we'll either go into

787
00:30:54,405 --> 00:30:56,685
that sadist, which is, I'm going

788
00:30:56,685 --> 00:30:58,085
to hurt you before you can hurt me.

789
00:30:58,225 --> 00:31:00,845
Oh, yeah. Or the masochist,
which is, I'm going

790
00:31:00,845 --> 00:31:02,445
to hurt me before you can hurt me. Mm.

791
00:31:03,005 --> 00:31:04,805
- Interesting.
- And neither of those are healthy.

792
00:31:05,265 --> 00:31:07,085
That's the closest is we get to this term

793
00:31:07,085 --> 00:31:10,125
of toxic masculinity in
that particular archetype.

794
00:31:10,665 --> 00:31:13,965
And so when we are there,
it's not a matter of like, oh,

795
00:31:14,065 --> 00:31:15,085
you're bad.

796
00:31:15,515 --> 00:31:18,925
It's a matter of you need
to realign with healthy.

797
00:31:19,585 --> 00:31:22,285
So I've, I've moved a lot
away from this idea of right

798
00:31:22,285 --> 00:31:24,685
and wrong and more to realigning.

799
00:31:25,145 --> 00:31:27,245
And if you'll, you know, if
you go back into the etymology

800
00:31:27,245 --> 00:31:29,125
of even the word sin in Greek,

801
00:31:29,225 --> 00:31:31,005
the word sin means to miss the mark.

802
00:31:31,105 --> 00:31:33,645
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And
so if I'm missing the mark,

803
00:31:33,715 --> 00:31:34,925
well then what do I need to do?

804
00:31:35,045 --> 00:31:37,085
I need to realign to the mark.

805
00:31:37,665 --> 00:31:40,125
And whether that's in this king energy

806
00:31:40,145 --> 00:31:42,445
or a warrior, you know, these
different terms that we have.

807
00:31:43,145 --> 00:31:46,445
Am I in alignment? Am I
aligned with a higher purpose?

808
00:31:46,465 --> 00:31:49,445
Am I aligned with God? Am I
aligned with who I want to be?

809
00:31:50,065 --> 00:31:51,205
Or am I out of alignment?

810
00:31:51,265 --> 00:31:53,565
And if I'm out of alignment, it's not,

811
00:31:53,755 --> 00:31:56,685
well I guess then it's, you
know, get down on myself

812
00:31:56,685 --> 00:31:58,085
and self deprecate and stuff.

813
00:31:58,635 --> 00:32:01,005
It's just the recognition
and getting back on track.

814
00:32:01,075 --> 00:32:03,405
- Yeah. And with that
alignment, like it's so easy

815
00:32:03,405 --> 00:32:06,165
to default to behaviors,
they're out of line.

816
00:32:06,165 --> 00:32:07,805
Like, is there, what more can you teach us

817
00:32:07,805 --> 00:32:08,925
about this concept of alignment?

818
00:32:10,005 --> 00:32:13,005
I think it, we sometimes go
to church with a sense of,

819
00:32:13,705 --> 00:32:16,685
or engage in re a religious
tradition with a sense of, well,

820
00:32:16,685 --> 00:32:18,485
it's gotta get my behaviors in check.

821
00:32:18,485 --> 00:32:20,085
Right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,
if I can just stop the porn,

822
00:32:20,495 --> 00:32:21,925
maybe that will get me in alignment,

823
00:32:22,025 --> 00:32:24,725
but is there more to alignment
or how would you describe it?

824
00:32:25,485 --> 00:32:28,885
- Absolutely. So much of
alignment to me has to do

825
00:32:28,885 --> 00:32:30,165
with you knowing where you're going.

826
00:32:30,745 --> 00:32:34,285
And the commandments are
great benchmarks. Mm-Hmm.

827
00:32:34,325 --> 00:32:36,765
<affirmative> really for
anybody, a lot of the things

828
00:32:36,765 --> 00:32:38,845
that are taught there,
it's really important.

829
00:32:39,515 --> 00:32:43,255
But if you don't know why you
are doing it, your tendency

830
00:32:43,255 --> 00:32:45,415
to get out of alignment
with it comes very quickly

831
00:32:46,115 --> 00:32:48,255
and very, uh, subconsciously at times.

832
00:32:49,075 --> 00:32:52,095
So if the only reason, for
example, I don't drink alcohol is

833
00:32:52,095 --> 00:32:54,855
because I can't, is because
I'm told I'm not supposed to.

834
00:32:55,525 --> 00:32:57,815
Well then that's not a very sustainable

835
00:32:57,815 --> 00:32:58,975
reason to be doing that <laugh>.

836
00:32:58,975 --> 00:33:01,175
Right. If the reason I
study the scriptures is

837
00:33:01,175 --> 00:33:02,855
because, well then I
can check it off the box

838
00:33:02,875 --> 00:33:04,215
and say, I did that during the day,

839
00:33:04,715 --> 00:33:06,615
that's not gonna be a
very sustainable reason.

840
00:33:07,075 --> 00:33:09,015
So one of the things that
I encourage a lot of men

841
00:33:09,015 --> 00:33:11,415
to do is not just look
at what you're doing

842
00:33:11,435 --> 00:33:14,655
or how you're doing it, but
to get clear as to why Mm-Hmm.

843
00:33:14,695 --> 00:33:17,095
<affirmative>. And that to
me has so much more to do

844
00:33:17,095 --> 00:33:18,135
with staying in alignment.

845
00:33:18,755 --> 00:33:19,775
If I wake up in the morning

846
00:33:19,795 --> 00:33:23,135
and I have a reason why to
be awake, the reason why

847
00:33:23,155 --> 00:33:25,215
to do things, then it's easier for me

848
00:33:25,215 --> 00:33:27,295
to recognize when I'm
getting off the path.

849
00:33:27,485 --> 00:33:29,255
- Yeah. And then that purpose, that

850
00:33:29,255 --> 00:33:30,855
that why rather than just, well,

851
00:33:31,395 --> 00:33:34,095
I'm only accepted if I do
these behaviors, so I better

852
00:33:34,625 --> 00:33:36,815
align these behaviors when
a reality is the purpose

853
00:33:36,915 --> 00:33:38,375
of an identity of it.

854
00:33:38,375 --> 00:33:41,655
Right. That I'm like, like
God knows me, he created me.

855
00:33:41,655 --> 00:33:42,775
Like he has a purpose for me.

856
00:33:42,775 --> 00:33:44,255
Like that, that's where the,

857
00:33:44,315 --> 00:33:46,175
the healthy masculinist pours out of a

858
00:33:46,175 --> 00:33:47,175
- Man.

859
00:33:47,175 --> 00:33:48,615
Absolutely. Yeah. One
of the other archetypes

860
00:33:49,085 --> 00:33:51,855
that gets thrown around
a lot in masculinity

861
00:33:52,275 --> 00:33:54,455
and in what you could
term toxic masculinity.

862
00:33:54,455 --> 00:33:55,575
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> is king.

863
00:33:55,875 --> 00:33:57,935
You get these organizations
that everybody's a king.

864
00:33:57,935 --> 00:33:59,895
We call each other king.
I call myself a king.

865
00:34:00,075 --> 00:34:02,255
And the whole organization's
not being a king.

866
00:34:02,795 --> 00:34:06,535
But the idea of a king
usually comes from more

867
00:34:06,535 --> 00:34:08,655
of the unrighteous idea
of a king, which is,

868
00:34:08,925 --> 00:34:10,855
this is about my personal glorification

869
00:34:11,395 --> 00:34:13,655
and this is about how amazing I'm mm-Hmm.

870
00:34:13,755 --> 00:34:15,655
And about how many
people are worshiping me

871
00:34:16,075 --> 00:34:17,655
and how much land I have.

872
00:34:17,675 --> 00:34:18,855
And, you know, all these different things.

873
00:34:19,595 --> 00:34:22,855
As I talk with men about
kind of claiming your kingdom

874
00:34:23,355 --> 00:34:24,735
and being a king in alignment,

875
00:34:25,485 --> 00:34:27,935
it's again, identifying who I am.

876
00:34:27,995 --> 00:34:30,735
Mm-Hmm. What is the standard
that I hold myself to,

877
00:34:31,235 --> 00:34:32,935
and that I hold myself to that first.

878
00:34:33,515 --> 00:34:34,775
So a lot of the men that I talk

879
00:34:34,775 --> 00:34:37,055
with are single looking to date.

880
00:34:37,515 --> 00:34:40,175
And a lot of lot of conversations
that I have are actually

881
00:34:40,175 --> 00:34:42,455
with women who say, where
are all the good guys?

882
00:34:42,895 --> 00:34:44,535
Hmm. Where are all the men that, you know,

883
00:34:45,055 --> 00:34:46,695
I can date, that I can trust?

884
00:34:47,195 --> 00:34:49,215
And one of the first things
I say is, when you're talking

885
00:34:49,215 --> 00:34:51,415
to him, say, what standard
do you hold yourself to?

886
00:34:51,725 --> 00:34:53,855
What is your code of conduct for yourself?

887
00:34:54,395 --> 00:34:57,055
If a man can say, this is who I'm, this is

888
00:34:57,055 --> 00:34:59,175
what I'm about, that is your kingdom.

889
00:35:00,155 --> 00:35:01,255
And as you live that,

890
00:35:01,845 --> 00:35:03,495
then you can invite other people into it.

891
00:35:03,915 --> 00:35:05,455
So King Benjamin is a great example.

892
00:35:05,965 --> 00:35:08,135
King Benjamin knew exactly who he was.

893
00:35:08,675 --> 00:35:09,935
He knew what his kingdom was about.

894
00:35:09,995 --> 00:35:12,495
He knew how he was gonna
show up in his kingdom.

895
00:35:13,035 --> 00:35:15,535
And so when it was time for
him to not be king anymore,

896
00:35:15,995 --> 00:35:17,935
it wasn't this mad grasp for power

897
00:35:18,435 --> 00:35:20,815
and no, I, I need to keep
this for as long as possible

898
00:35:20,915 --> 00:35:22,815
and tyranny and all
these different things.

899
00:35:22,915 --> 00:35:24,615
It was, yeah. I have done the thing

900
00:35:24,615 --> 00:35:25,815
that I have been here to do.

901
00:35:26,375 --> 00:35:29,335
I have served, I have led and
those were the same thing.

902
00:35:29,635 --> 00:35:31,935
And I've done that from a
motivation of love Yeah.

903
00:35:32,115 --> 00:35:33,375
And provision and,

904
00:35:33,435 --> 00:35:35,895
and ordering that to me is so much of

905
00:35:36,435 --> 00:35:38,495
the king energy within masculinity

906
00:35:39,235 --> 00:35:41,175
and not really the way that we've come

907
00:35:41,175 --> 00:35:42,815
to define it in the world today.

908
00:35:43,115 --> 00:35:44,295
So if you're looking at yourself saying,

909
00:35:44,335 --> 00:35:46,295
I wanna be a king, it starts with you.

910
00:35:46,835 --> 00:35:48,055
How do you live your own life? What

911
00:35:48,215 --> 00:35:49,295
standard do you hold yourself to?

912
00:35:49,565 --> 00:35:51,975
Because you, you can't rule over

913
00:35:52,075 --> 00:35:54,975
or lead anybody if you
can't yourself first.

914
00:35:55,525 --> 00:35:57,335
- Yeah. That's powerful, that framing.

915
00:35:57,615 --> 00:35:59,375
'cause I think every young man, I mean,

916
00:35:59,535 --> 00:36:02,415
I <laugh> I think everybody
goes to this space decided,

917
00:36:02,515 --> 00:36:04,975
you know, like maybe
after the mission or or

918
00:36:04,975 --> 00:36:07,215
after high school where
you're like, I'm gonna be rich

919
00:36:07,595 --> 00:36:09,095
and I'm gonna be super rich

920
00:36:09,275 --> 00:36:12,135
and I'm gonna like lead
corporations and, you know,

921
00:36:12,135 --> 00:36:14,975
and then, and that can lead
down these paths of like,

922
00:36:14,995 --> 00:36:18,255
I'm gonna be king and people
are gonna worship what I do.

923
00:36:18,355 --> 00:36:20,855
And, and, uh, even though we
may not frame it that way, like

924
00:36:20,855 --> 00:36:22,775
that's sort of the, the
seed of masculinity.

925
00:36:22,775 --> 00:36:25,095
But again, it's in these
alignment in these paths

926
00:36:25,095 --> 00:36:28,655
where we find what true
royalty is, you know, as we,

927
00:36:28,655 --> 00:36:31,695
especially as we've all
ducking Jesus Christ. Right.

928
00:36:32,095 --> 00:36:33,895
- Absolutely.
- That he's always,

929
00:36:34,875 --> 00:36:36,575
he is always the one we're,
we're reaching towards,

930
00:36:36,635 --> 00:36:39,055
not necessarily, you know,
our manifestation of it.

931
00:36:39,055 --> 00:36:40,255
- So certainly.
- Yeah. Yeah.

932
00:36:40,565 --> 00:36:42,535
Tell me about like, rites
of passage, you know,

933
00:36:42,655 --> 00:36:45,055
'cause I think we have
a beautiful tradition of

934
00:36:45,085 --> 00:36:47,295
what many could say rites
of passage you think of,

935
00:36:47,555 --> 00:36:48,695
uh, the young deacons.

936
00:36:48,695 --> 00:36:51,375
You know, it's like, like
that's sort of the bestow of,

937
00:36:51,635 --> 00:36:52,775
of manhood a little bit.

938
00:36:52,885 --> 00:36:55,015
Like you have the priesthood now, like,

939
00:36:55,235 --> 00:36:58,015
and you know, we grandma and
grandpa come to the church

940
00:36:58,075 --> 00:36:59,855
and you get ordained and that's great.

941
00:36:59,855 --> 00:37:02,615
But, uh, anything else that we
should understand about rites

942
00:37:02,615 --> 00:37:04,575
of passages in terms of manhood?

943
00:37:05,065 --> 00:37:07,135
- Again, as you go back
a hundred years or,

944
00:37:07,155 --> 00:37:10,505
or further rites of passage were

945
00:37:11,225 --> 00:37:15,305
a lot more clearly defined
for men now serving a mission

946
00:37:15,845 --> 00:37:17,985
serves as, as somewhat
of a rite of passage.

947
00:37:18,045 --> 00:37:20,425
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,
obviously you leave your

948
00:37:20,425 --> 00:37:21,545
family, you leave your home.

949
00:37:21,915 --> 00:37:24,225
Oftentimes you go into
this strange foreign land,

950
00:37:24,415 --> 00:37:26,425
sometimes even speaking another language.

951
00:37:26,965 --> 00:37:28,865
And you're there in the name of service,

952
00:37:29,005 --> 00:37:31,385
you're there in the name of
Christ to, to serve and to love.

953
00:37:31,765 --> 00:37:34,345
And that is beautiful and
it's really important.

954
00:37:35,085 --> 00:37:38,705
But what we see so much
in the world today is

955
00:37:38,805 --> 00:37:41,105
so many young men in
this failure to launch

956
00:37:41,595 --> 00:37:44,185
where I'm 26, 27, 28,

957
00:37:44,725 --> 00:37:46,745
and I, I still kinda
live in mom's basement.

958
00:37:46,845 --> 00:37:49,385
Not that there's something
inherently wrong with that. Sure.

959
00:37:49,725 --> 00:37:51,825
But that I'm still kind of
acting like I was when I

960
00:37:51,825 --> 00:37:52,865
was 16 and 17.

961
00:37:53,465 --> 00:37:55,185
I do the bare minimum, the, you know,

962
00:37:55,185 --> 00:37:56,945
four hours a day part-time job.

963
00:37:57,365 --> 00:37:59,065
And then I come home and I'm on my Xbox

964
00:37:59,165 --> 00:38:00,985
for 8, 9, 10 hours a day.

965
00:38:01,045 --> 00:38:04,185
You know? And as a society,
we've lost a lot of these rites

966
00:38:04,185 --> 00:38:06,545
of passage for young men.

967
00:38:06,965 --> 00:38:10,065
And so, again, so much of the
conversations that I have are

968
00:38:10,065 --> 00:38:11,585
with women that are saying,

969
00:38:11,705 --> 00:38:13,305
I wish my husband would just step up.

970
00:38:13,365 --> 00:38:15,825
Mm-Hmm. I wish my partner would just like,

971
00:38:15,965 --> 00:38:17,225
be a man and lead our family.

972
00:38:17,925 --> 00:38:21,145
And the men are telling me,
I don't know what that means.

973
00:38:21,545 --> 00:38:22,545
I don't know what that looks like.

974
00:38:23,245 --> 00:38:25,305
So I think as parents,
it's an important thing.

975
00:38:25,325 --> 00:38:29,225
And for myself, I've realized
having four teenagers,

976
00:38:29,225 --> 00:38:32,105
three teenage sons, I
came to the realization

977
00:38:32,105 --> 00:38:33,585
that I'd been enabling them too much.

978
00:38:34,325 --> 00:38:37,085
And I'd done it from a place
of love. I cared about them.

979
00:38:37,105 --> 00:38:41,165
And I saw the ways that I
was so unfairly treated as a,

980
00:38:41,165 --> 00:38:43,005
as a teenager by my parents

981
00:38:43,025 --> 00:38:44,645
and feel, well, I'm not
gonna do it that way.

982
00:38:44,745 --> 00:38:46,005
I'm gonna do it this way instead.

983
00:38:46,385 --> 00:38:47,965
And again, the pendulum sometimes goes

984
00:38:47,965 --> 00:38:49,005
too far the other direction.

985
00:38:49,055 --> 00:38:53,485
Where are we giving our young
men these opportunities really

986
00:38:53,485 --> 00:38:57,245
beyond just like the token
moment of, yeah, hey,

987
00:38:57,245 --> 00:38:58,845
now you're a deacon or
now you're a teacher,

988
00:38:59,265 --> 00:39:00,565
but what does that actually mean?

989
00:39:01,145 --> 00:39:02,925
And what are you going to do with that?

990
00:39:03,435 --> 00:39:05,005
What are your responsibilities here?

991
00:39:05,005 --> 00:39:08,005
What are you going to step into
so that when a young man is

992
00:39:08,565 --> 00:39:12,045
18, 19, 20, 21, he's willing to step from

993
00:39:12,045 --> 00:39:15,885
that boyhood into the
manhood. Yeah. Mindset.

994
00:39:16,305 --> 00:39:18,285
- And, and there's
really, you know, we sort

995
00:39:18,285 --> 00:39:19,605
of have these events
like you mentioned like

996
00:39:20,225 --> 00:39:21,365
you just turned 11,

997
00:39:21,505 --> 00:39:23,445
or it's January and you're gonna turn 12.

998
00:39:23,455 --> 00:39:25,765
Right. This is that
you're right of passage.

999
00:39:25,945 --> 00:39:27,845
But there's on these little nuances

1000
00:39:27,845 --> 00:39:30,565
as you're raising men or young men.

1001
00:39:30,905 --> 00:39:33,405
And have you read the
Intentional Father? I have.

1002
00:39:33,795 --> 00:39:35,045
It's by, uh, John Tyson.

1003
00:39:35,485 --> 00:39:37,445
Actually, someone I
interviewed turned me onto it

1004
00:39:37,445 --> 00:39:39,245
and I read it and it's just phenomenal.

1005
00:39:39,305 --> 00:39:40,645
He actually, he's a Christian Guy.

1006
00:39:40,745 --> 00:39:43,485
He actually shouts out
the Latterday Saints

1007
00:39:43,485 --> 00:39:44,525
for 'cause of our mission program.

1008
00:39:44,805 --> 00:39:45,845
'cause it is such a rite of passage.

1009
00:39:45,945 --> 00:39:49,605
But there's all these other
like mini steps that you can do

1010
00:39:49,675 --> 00:39:52,885
with, with young men so
that they feel that enabling

1011
00:39:52,885 --> 00:39:55,045
of like, oh, I'm stepping
in the manhood here.

1012
00:39:55,045 --> 00:39:56,965
So that when that time
comes, they're not like,

1013
00:39:57,425 --> 00:39:58,445
Joe, what does that even mean?

1014
00:39:58,805 --> 00:39:59,805
I don't know how to step up.

1015
00:39:59,885 --> 00:40:01,245
I wanna step up, but what do I do?

1016
00:40:01,245 --> 00:40:02,605
You know, where's the step? Yeah.

1017
00:40:03,105 --> 00:40:04,765
So there's a lot of tools

1018
00:40:04,765 --> 00:40:06,605
to think, resources you can
look to for that. Right.

1019
00:40:07,205 --> 00:40:09,165
- Absolutely.
- So tell me about resources as far

1020
00:40:09,165 --> 00:40:12,085
as if like people like they
want to either be that father

1021
00:40:12,185 --> 00:40:13,805
or they don't know how to step up.

1022
00:40:13,805 --> 00:40:15,085
They don't know how to
answer that question

1023
00:40:15,085 --> 00:40:16,605
themselves as a man.

1024
00:40:17,105 --> 00:40:18,325
Any resources you turn 'em to.

1025
00:40:18,715 --> 00:40:20,725
- Yeah. I love the idea of retreats.

1026
00:40:21,065 --> 00:40:23,325
And retreats are, are very
popular in the world today.

1027
00:40:23,385 --> 00:40:25,045
You go into these three
to four day events.

1028
00:40:25,845 --> 00:40:28,005
I serve with this organization
for a number of years

1029
00:40:28,015 --> 00:40:31,765
where I was at many of these
and facilitated quite a few.

1030
00:40:32,145 --> 00:40:33,405
And they're really important.

1031
00:40:33,875 --> 00:40:36,645
They can be really great
catalysts towards change.

1032
00:40:37,185 --> 00:40:39,645
But just like anything
else in life, a three

1033
00:40:39,645 --> 00:40:41,845
or four day experience does not create

1034
00:40:41,995 --> 00:40:43,205
something sustainable.

1035
00:40:43,205 --> 00:40:46,325
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So
what I've created with this,

1036
00:40:46,545 --> 00:40:48,445
the Alies guard is what it's called.

1037
00:40:48,475 --> 00:40:52,445
It's this group of men that is
consistently, not constantly

1038
00:40:52,505 --> 00:40:55,085
but consistently gathering,
checking ourselves,

1039
00:40:55,365 --> 00:40:58,645
checking each other, finding
men, finding resources

1040
00:40:58,645 --> 00:41:00,365
that have done some of
these things Mm-hmm.

1041
00:41:00,445 --> 00:41:02,005
<affirmative> that have
been in many of these places

1042
00:41:02,055 --> 00:41:05,085
where you are, are you
willing to look at yourself

1043
00:41:05,085 --> 00:41:07,965
and say, there is something
about me that I would like

1044
00:41:07,965 --> 00:41:09,805
to shift and there's somebody out there

1045
00:41:09,995 --> 00:41:11,445
that can probably help me do that.

1046
00:41:12,105 --> 00:41:14,045
That's not the, the current male culture.

1047
00:41:14,665 --> 00:41:15,885
So when we're willing to do that

1048
00:41:16,105 --> 00:41:20,085
and we find a, a coach,
we find a group of men,

1049
00:41:20,085 --> 00:41:22,405
we find a brother, we
find an organization,

1050
00:41:22,805 --> 00:41:25,125
whatever it might be
that can help us in that.

1051
00:41:25,265 --> 00:41:27,405
And at the very least just hold us in the

1052
00:41:27,405 --> 00:41:28,805
realization that we don't have it.

1053
00:41:28,875 --> 00:41:31,405
Because that's a, a
hard thing to navigate.

1054
00:41:31,405 --> 00:41:34,005
Sometimes there's a lot of
self-judgment, there's a lot

1055
00:41:34,005 --> 00:41:36,245
of blame and shame that comes with that.

1056
00:41:36,635 --> 00:41:37,885
Generally self-imposed.

1057
00:41:37,905 --> 00:41:41,885
But sometimes externally as
well, there are resources,

1058
00:41:41,885 --> 00:41:44,285
there are places that you can go to start

1059
00:41:44,285 --> 00:41:46,405
to level up in your life to start

1060
00:41:46,405 --> 00:41:48,565
to really step into the capacity
of who you know you are.

1061
00:41:49,105 --> 00:41:50,805
And you're right, it has very little to do

1062
00:41:51,045 --> 00:41:52,205
with leading organizations

1063
00:41:52,305 --> 00:41:53,885
and having the millions of dollars

1064
00:41:54,025 --> 00:41:56,365
and having a six pack is awesome.

1065
00:41:56,845 --> 00:41:58,445
<laugh> driving a Lamborghini is awesome,

1066
00:41:59,065 --> 00:42:01,285
but those are the things
that we've been sold Yeah.

1067
00:42:01,285 --> 00:42:02,445
Equal masculinity.

1068
00:42:02,785 --> 00:42:03,765
And very rarely does

1069
00:42:03,765 --> 00:42:05,285
this actually have anything
to do with it. Yeah.

1070
00:42:05,635 --> 00:42:07,005
- Talk to me about unrighteous dominion.

1071
00:42:07,035 --> 00:42:10,685
This is, uh, this may be
the, the term we use instead

1072
00:42:10,685 --> 00:42:12,085
of toxic masculinity Yeah.

1073
00:42:12,265 --> 00:42:13,365
Is unrighteous dominion.

1074
00:42:13,945 --> 00:42:15,445
It usually gets pinned to a,

1075
00:42:15,645 --> 00:42:17,125
a male figure rather than a female.

1076
00:42:17,305 --> 00:42:19,485
But, you know, anything else
that we haven't mentioned

1077
00:42:19,485 --> 00:42:20,525
with unrighteous dominion?

1078
00:42:20,955 --> 00:42:23,925
- Yeah, I think that's
important to, again, be able

1079
00:42:23,925 --> 00:42:27,565
to define clearly what
that actually means.

1080
00:42:28,115 --> 00:42:31,725
Because if it's anything
that a man is doing, whether

1081
00:42:31,725 --> 00:42:35,605
that is my brother, my
dad, my spouse, my bishop,

1082
00:42:36,185 --> 00:42:37,925
my stake president that I don't like,

1083
00:42:38,555 --> 00:42:40,485
that doesn't equal unrighteous dominion.

1084
00:42:40,875 --> 00:42:43,045
That doesn't always equal
unrighteous dominion

1085
00:42:43,385 --> 00:42:44,765
or toxic masculinity.

1086
00:42:44,765 --> 00:42:46,365
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> or this patriarchy.

1087
00:42:46,865 --> 00:42:50,485
And so coming up with a clearly
defined definition of that

1088
00:42:50,745 --> 00:42:54,605
to then be able to talk about
it is what allows us to evolve

1089
00:42:55,105 --> 00:42:56,885
and allows us to
communicate in a good way.

1090
00:42:57,465 --> 00:42:59,885
But that's not what most
people are experiencing.

1091
00:43:00,235 --> 00:43:03,085
Most people are experiencing
why just was told this.

1092
00:43:03,085 --> 00:43:04,405
And so I need to shift that.

1093
00:43:04,565 --> 00:43:05,645
I need to change that,

1094
00:43:06,145 --> 00:43:07,925
but without definitions of

1095
00:43:07,925 --> 00:43:09,725
what it is, I dunno what to do about it.

1096
00:43:10,075 --> 00:43:13,445
- Yeah. And then we, we just
like toxic patriarchy, we sort

1097
00:43:13,445 --> 00:43:14,685
of throw these terms around,

1098
00:43:14,825 --> 00:43:16,445
but there's, there's more going on.

1099
00:43:16,445 --> 00:43:18,125
Right. That we should consider. Yeah.

1100
00:43:18,745 --> 00:43:21,765
Any other, any other point
principle story concept as

1101
00:43:21,765 --> 00:43:22,845
- I've gone through this work,

1102
00:43:23,605 --> 00:43:26,285
I had a realization a couple
years ago about an experience

1103
00:43:26,285 --> 00:43:28,645
that I had when I was like 10 years old.

1104
00:43:29,105 --> 00:43:32,725
And it was 10 years old and
there's a Harmons on 35th South

1105
00:43:32,825 --> 00:43:34,365
and 40th west right there.

1106
00:43:34,455 --> 00:43:36,805
Uhhuh <affirmative>.
That was like the Harmons

1107
00:43:36,805 --> 00:43:37,845
that my family always went to.

1108
00:43:38,265 --> 00:43:40,245
So was there It was a grocery
store. Yeah. Grocery store.

1109
00:43:40,715 --> 00:43:44,645
Yeah. Was there with my
father and I stole a candy bar

1110
00:43:45,145 --> 00:43:47,365
and I got caught stealing the candy bar.

1111
00:43:47,945 --> 00:43:50,445
So there was an awkward rest
of the trip with my dad,

1112
00:43:50,545 --> 00:43:53,845
you know, gave the candy bar
back, but very, very silent.

1113
00:43:54,345 --> 00:43:58,285
And we got home. And what I
learned in that experience in

1114
00:43:58,285 --> 00:44:02,125
that moment was, well,
my mother was very sad

1115
00:44:02,355 --> 00:44:04,125
because, you know, my
dad told her about it.

1116
00:44:04,545 --> 00:44:07,485
My dad was very upset,
the store was very upset,

1117
00:44:07,865 --> 00:44:10,165
and God was very upset with me.

1118
00:44:10,665 --> 00:44:13,165
And I learned in that moment
that the thing that I needed

1119
00:44:13,185 --> 00:44:16,325
to do to continue to be
accepted, to continue to be part

1120
00:44:16,325 --> 00:44:18,485
of my family and part of the,
you know, people around me,

1121
00:44:19,145 --> 00:44:20,965
is I needed to make
sure my mom felt better

1122
00:44:21,345 --> 00:44:22,925
and I needed to make
sure my dad felt better

1123
00:44:23,025 --> 00:44:26,525
and that God felt better and
that the store felt better.

1124
00:44:27,335 --> 00:44:29,755
No one really ever asked me
why I stole the candy bar.

1125
00:44:30,615 --> 00:44:33,165
And if, if I was asked, it
wasn't asked in a very like,

1126
00:44:33,445 --> 00:44:34,845
<laugh> inviting way, you know?

1127
00:44:34,845 --> 00:44:37,565
Yeah. Yeah. That was one
of the first experiences

1128
00:44:37,565 --> 00:44:41,605
that points to me, the ways
that we teach really everyone.

1129
00:44:41,605 --> 00:44:43,085
But I know young men specifically,

1130
00:44:43,915 --> 00:44:45,925
what you do is not so much the problem.

1131
00:44:46,395 --> 00:44:47,725
It's how everybody else feels

1132
00:44:47,725 --> 00:44:48,925
about the thing that you're doing.

1133
00:44:49,865 --> 00:44:52,685
And that is, I believe
one of the biggest thing

1134
00:44:52,685 --> 00:44:54,045
that's hurting men in our day

1135
00:44:54,045 --> 00:44:58,965
and age is it's this idea
that everything that I do is

1136
00:44:58,985 --> 00:45:01,205
to maintain somebody
else's emotional state,

1137
00:45:01,625 --> 00:45:03,325
to maintain somebody's perception of me.

1138
00:45:03,905 --> 00:45:05,605
And if I actually just
get to consider like,

1139
00:45:05,605 --> 00:45:07,005
why did I sell that candy bar?

1140
00:45:07,545 --> 00:45:10,885
Why does that matter?
Why should I not do that?

1141
00:45:11,505 --> 00:45:14,525
And then I have that realization,
I can still hold space

1142
00:45:14,545 --> 00:45:16,085
for everybody's emotions around it,

1143
00:45:16,465 --> 00:45:18,725
but when you make someone else
responsible for your emotion,

1144
00:45:19,355 --> 00:45:20,365
it's not sustainable.

1145
00:45:20,865 --> 00:45:22,405
One, because your emotion
might change the next

1146
00:45:22,405 --> 00:45:23,685
day how you feel about something.

1147
00:45:23,685 --> 00:45:25,925
Right. So I, I use that story quite often

1148
00:45:26,115 --> 00:45:27,605
because men will come to me

1149
00:45:27,605 --> 00:45:28,965
and say, here's where I'm at in life.

1150
00:45:29,465 --> 00:45:31,885
And I'm miserable because
this person is miserable.

1151
00:45:32,185 --> 00:45:34,205
And I'm miserable because
this person isn't happy

1152
00:45:34,625 --> 00:45:36,925
and I'm miserable because what
I do here is never enough.

1153
00:45:37,605 --> 00:45:39,885
Hmm. So, okay, why do you
do all of those things?

1154
00:45:40,425 --> 00:45:44,205
And so when we go inward and
we develop self-awareness

1155
00:45:44,385 --> 00:45:46,485
and we develop our
relationship more with God,

1156
00:45:47,025 --> 00:45:50,925
and that higher awareness,
higher power, then we're able

1157
00:45:50,925 --> 00:45:53,125
to orient ourselves to the reasons

1158
00:45:53,185 --> 00:45:54,325
we do the things that we do.

1159
00:45:54,705 --> 00:45:57,765
And the way that everybody else
feels about it becomes a lot

1160
00:45:57,765 --> 00:46:00,645
more sustainable as well, because
we're, we're in alignment.

1161
00:46:00,985 --> 00:46:03,285
So that feels important to me. Yeah.

1162
00:46:03,765 --> 00:46:05,725
'cause that is, so much of
brotherhood is giving permission

1163
00:46:05,725 --> 00:46:07,405
to say, I can be here for you

1164
00:46:07,945 --> 00:46:10,605
and what you tell me,
I'm not gonna shame you.

1165
00:46:11,065 --> 00:46:12,885
I'm not gonna blame you,
I'm not gonna judge you.

1166
00:46:13,345 --> 00:46:16,005
I'm here for it. And if it's
not something you wanna do

1167
00:46:16,005 --> 00:46:17,085
anymore, let's figure that out.

1168
00:46:17,595 --> 00:46:20,325
Game changer. Yeah.
Everything changes. Yeah.

1169
00:46:20,585 --> 00:46:22,645
And it feels really good
to operate from that place.

1170
00:46:22,915 --> 00:46:25,485
- Yeah. You know, and I've
just found that every man has

1171
00:46:25,485 --> 00:46:27,805
that candy bar or a
candy bar story, right.

1172
00:46:28,265 --> 00:46:30,125
Or a moment in their past where they go to

1173
00:46:30,125 --> 00:46:32,325
and it's like, I received
a certain message here

1174
00:46:32,715 --> 00:46:35,845
that impacted how I show, how
I've revealed my masculinity

1175
00:46:36,025 --> 00:46:37,085
for the rest of my life.

1176
00:46:37,585 --> 00:46:39,365
And it's, and through this
brotherhood and things where,

1177
00:46:39,745 --> 00:46:41,485
and come together and recognize that

1178
00:46:41,485 --> 00:46:43,285
and be like, oh, you mean <laugh>?

1179
00:46:43,365 --> 00:46:45,765
I don't have to carry these
chains anymore. You know?

1180
00:46:45,825 --> 00:46:48,165
And a lot of times it
leads to further behavior

1181
00:46:48,265 --> 00:46:49,845
of these things that don't make sense.

1182
00:46:49,845 --> 00:46:50,925
Like, why would you look at the porn?

1183
00:46:51,025 --> 00:46:52,045
Why would you do this or that?

1184
00:46:52,075 --> 00:46:54,565
Like, it's, you know, but
nobody asks why you do it.

1185
00:46:54,595 --> 00:46:56,245
It's more of like, you did it.

1186
00:46:56,355 --> 00:46:58,165
Like, that's ter like it makes me

1187
00:46:58,165 --> 00:46:59,325
feel bad when you did that.

1188
00:46:59,615 --> 00:47:02,005
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Powerful, powerful concept.

1189
00:47:02,305 --> 00:47:05,165
So if people want know more
about your Utah Men circle

1190
00:47:05,265 --> 00:47:06,765
or resources you provide, where,

1191
00:47:06,835 --> 00:47:08,045
where's a good starting point?

1192
00:47:08,465 --> 00:47:11,125
- So there's the typical
Instagram, Facebook,

1193
00:47:11,305 --> 00:47:12,645
you can search Utah Men Circle.

1194
00:47:12,785 --> 00:47:13,965
You can search Joe Spearin,

1195
00:47:14,225 --> 00:47:15,925
you can search Alga, alies guard.

1196
00:47:16,465 --> 00:47:20,965
You can also go to guard com,
Utah mend circle com and,

1197
00:47:20,965 --> 00:47:22,325
and find all the information there as

1198
00:47:22,325 --> 00:47:23,325
- Well.

1199
00:47:23,325 --> 00:47:24,365
And like you said, the men
circles are free, like, uh,

1200
00:47:24,625 --> 00:47:25,805
um, twice a month, just show up,

1201
00:47:25,915 --> 00:47:27,205
- Mend circles free, give it a go.

1202
00:47:27,485 --> 00:47:29,085
I did that intentionally because,

1203
00:47:29,285 --> 00:47:30,965
'cause I, I didn't want
any man to say, well,

1204
00:47:31,025 --> 00:47:32,645
the only reason you
care about me being here

1205
00:47:32,645 --> 00:47:33,685
is because I paid money.

1206
00:47:33,715 --> 00:47:36,525
Yeah, yeah. Got rid of that
excuse. Yeah. So, yeah,

1207
00:47:36,845 --> 00:47:38,285
- I encourage people to
check it out and try.

1208
00:47:38,465 --> 00:47:41,405
So last question I have for
you is, I mean, you're in this,

1209
00:47:41,825 --> 00:47:45,205
on this journey of, it's
in one form leadership of

1210
00:47:45,805 --> 00:47:48,365
Stepping Up and, you know,
nobody sat you down in office

1211
00:47:48,545 --> 00:47:50,045
and bat in an oak desk

1212
00:47:50,065 --> 00:47:51,165
and said, we'd like to call you

1213
00:47:51,185 --> 00:47:53,685
as the Young Utah Men's
Circle guy <laugh>.

1214
00:47:54,145 --> 00:47:55,765
But you, you stepped up into this role.

1215
00:47:55,785 --> 00:47:57,645
So how has this journey
helped you become a better

1216
00:47:57,645 --> 00:47:58,845
follower of Jesus Christ?

1217
00:47:59,395 --> 00:48:00,765
- There's a beautiful story.

1218
00:48:00,915 --> 00:48:05,045
President Udo, elder Udo
tells about this group of men

1219
00:48:05,045 --> 00:48:07,445
that are trying to move
a piano from a general

1220
00:48:07,445 --> 00:48:08,485
conference from years ago.

1221
00:48:08,945 --> 00:48:10,005
And they can't move it. They

1222
00:48:10,005 --> 00:48:11,125
can't move it, they can't move it.

1223
00:48:11,625 --> 00:48:14,365
And eventually one guy says,
everybody stand close together

1224
00:48:14,365 --> 00:48:15,485
and lift where you stand.

1225
00:48:16,025 --> 00:48:19,845
And that has been a
huge inspiration for me.

1226
00:48:19,845 --> 00:48:23,085
When I heard that saying,
one, the, the calling

1227
00:48:23,085 --> 00:48:26,605
that I hold is not the thing
that defines my ability to lift

1228
00:48:26,605 --> 00:48:29,845
where I stand, nor do I need
to be commanded in all things.

1229
00:48:30,485 --> 00:48:32,805
I can just be anxiously
engaged in a good cause.

1230
00:48:33,265 --> 00:48:36,045
And as I do that, I feel God's love.

1231
00:48:36,645 --> 00:48:40,005
I feel inspiration and support
in the thing that I do.

1232
00:48:40,505 --> 00:48:43,085
And as I continue to seek that direction

1233
00:48:43,205 --> 00:48:46,565
and that inspiration, I
have drawn closer to Christ.

1234
00:48:46,635 --> 00:48:49,325
I've Drawn, drawn closer
to my Heavenly Father

1235
00:48:49,705 --> 00:48:51,605
and feels good to continue

1236
00:48:51,605 --> 00:48:52,925
to move in that direction for myself.

1237
00:49:00,345 --> 00:49:02,405
- Now that we've reached
the end of the episode,

1238
00:49:02,845 --> 00:49:03,885
I quickly wanna thank you

1239
00:49:03,905 --> 00:49:05,845
for supporting the Leading Saints podcast.

1240
00:49:06,315 --> 00:49:08,485
There's so much content
out there to consider,

1241
00:49:08,545 --> 00:49:09,925
and you picked this one.

1242
00:49:10,225 --> 00:49:12,565
If Leading Saints has made
an impact in your life,

1243
00:49:12,905 --> 00:49:14,165
we would sure like

1244
00:49:14,165 --> 00:49:16,605
to hear about it at
leading saints.org/contact.

1245
00:49:17,145 --> 00:49:18,725
And if you could quickly text

1246
00:49:18,745 --> 00:49:21,765
or email this episode
to a leader, you know,

1247
00:49:22,085 --> 00:49:23,165
I bet it will bless their life.

1248
00:49:23,505 --> 00:49:25,125
You can mark off your good turn daily

1249
00:49:25,385 --> 00:49:26,885
and let's even call it ministering.

1250
00:49:27,155 --> 00:49:29,765
Okay? Maybe not that far,
but seriously. Thank you.

1251
00:49:30,065 --> 00:49:31,285
And help us share this content.

1252
00:49:32,205 --> 00:49:34,405
Remember, learn more about
disclosing betrayal from Jeff

1253
00:49:34,405 --> 00:49:37,765
Streger by visiting leading
saints.org/fourteen.

1254
00:49:48,545 --> 00:49:51,765
- It came as a result of
the position of leadership,

1255
00:49:51,775 --> 00:49:55,445
which was imposed upon
us by the God of Heaven,

1256
00:49:55,625 --> 00:49:59,085
who brought forth a
restoration of the gospel

1257
00:49:59,265 --> 00:50:00,605
of Jesus Christ.

1258
00:50:01,305 --> 00:50:04,885
And when the Declaration
was made concerning the own

1259
00:50:04,985 --> 00:50:06,085
and only true

1260
00:50:06,085 --> 00:50:08,645
and living church upon
the face of the earth,

1261
00:50:09,425 --> 00:50:12,645
we were immediately put in
a position of loneliness.

1262
00:50:12,825 --> 00:50:17,165
The loneliness of leadership
from which we cannot shrink

1263
00:50:17,345 --> 00:50:22,085
nor run away, and to which
we must face up with boldness

1264
00:50:22,265 --> 00:50:24,245
and courage and ability.