- It is finally available.
I've been working on a manuscript for the past four years,
and it's finally a book I can hold in my hands.
It's titled, is God Disappointed In Me Removing Shame
From a Gospel of Grace?
This book has gotten so much attention
that it is already a number one Amazon bestseller.
I'm Beyond amazed in just a few words I wrote,
is God Disappointed in Me for Latter Day Saints
who often feel overwhelmed by the gospel
and who are constantly worrying if they are doing enough.
It's for the latter Day Saint
who have stepped away from the church is for the individuals
who appear to be living right
but still can't find peace and happiness.
And frankly, it's for everyone who enjoys listening
to the Leading Saints podcast.
You will love and cherish this book.
Now, warning, you might want
to consider purchasing multiple copies to share one Bishop
who got an advance copy, read it in one weekend,
and then literally purchased 100 additional copies.
You can order it on Amazon.
The link is in the show notes
or starting in March, you can find it in your local Costco
in Idaho, Utah, and Arizona.
It's called Is God Disappointed In Me?
And you can order it Now.
So you're checking us out
as maybe a potential podcast you could start listening to.
I know many of you have been listening for a long time,
but let me just talk to the newbies for a minute.
What is Leading Saints?
What are we trying to do here with this podcast?
Well, let me explain. Leading Saints is a nonprofit
organization, a 5 0 1 C3 is what they call it.
And we have a mission
to help Latter Day Saints be better prepared to lead.
Now, of course often means in the context of a calling,
it may mean in your local community, your work assignments.
We've heard about our content influencing all sorts
of leaders in all sorts of different contexts.
We invite you to listen to this episode
and maybe a few others of our 500 plus episodes
that we have out there, jump in and begin to learn
and begin to consider some
of these principles we talk about on
the Leading Saints podcast.
Here we go.
This past week we published a phenomenal discussion
between myself and Pastor Jeff, who's the creator
of Hello Saints, a YouTube channel where he
as a evangelical pastor explores all things in the church
of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
And Pastor Jeff's become a great friend
and I didn't realize it until I'm sort
of putting these final touches on these episodes,
but today I'm releasing an episode where I talk
with the other half of the McCullough clan,
which is Joy Pastor Jeff's wife.
Now my wife and I have become great friends with, uh, Jeff
and Joy as they've moved to Utah and we've hung out more
and more and I've had some great just casual conversations
with Joy about different topics, about therapy, trauma,
mental health, because Joy has some phenomenal perspectives,
especially with her evangelical background.
And I love bringing to the table different thoughts,
especially those from a different faith tradition talking
about similar concerns that all sorts
of Christians are wrestling with.
And so in this discussion we talk about the
concept of trauma.
How trauma impacts not only our wellbeing, our life,
but even in a religious context,
how does it impact the ways we sin or why we sin
and how we show up to church
and what we are looking for in the church experience.
And so just a fun discussion with me and Joy McCullough
and you will love her perspective as we talk through this.
So here's my interview with Joy McCullough.
Welcome back to another episode of Leading Saints.
And today we're bringing someone you,
you know, but you don't know.
And that's Joy McCullough. How are you? I'm good. .
Now you are the Mrs. Hello Saints. Is that okay?
- Is that what I am ?
- Yeah. You're the wife of Jeff McCullough who, uh,
produces Hello Saints. Right? This
- Is true. Yeah.
- Nice. And we've uh,
greater friendship 'cause Jeff and I have a friendship.
Yep. And so as we talk, we have geeked out on some therapy
concepts and things 'cause you're a therapist.
True. And, uh, and thought we should get you on the
podcast and explore these things.
So, and you don't, it's not a require
to be a latter day saint to be on Leading
Saint. So we welcome you.
- Thank you very much. I appreciate that. I'm glad
- To be here.
And, and we'll plug your, your husband's, he's got a,
obviously his YouTube channel,
but he's starting a podcast as well called Hello Saints.
Okay. Yeah. And you were the first guest on
that, so they want more joy.
- Best episode ever. That's right.
the only episode, but it's the best. Well,
- It's good stuff.
. So maybe just from a personal standpoint,
like what's that journey been like with you moving to Utah,
being more familiar with the latter Saint world?
- It has been an interesting journey
and I feel like I'm still very much at the beginning of it,
but it's been a couple
of years since Jeff has really been kind of interested.
Mm-Hmm. in talking
about moving, thinking about moving.
And I kind of pulled the reins back a little bit at first.
We love Utah, it's gorgeous,
like the mountains every day I have, I don't know,
all my pictures on my phone are of the same exact mountains.
Right? Yeah. Every day is beautiful.
And we're living among people that we are the minority
and it feels like a privilege to be a part of the community.
Yes. So, and everyone is super kind and welcoming
and we've loved it so far. So
- What was your, like, I assume Jeff brought up the idea
long ago about what if we moved to Utah?
Like do you remember your response to that or ?
- My response, I was very reluctant at first.
It actually is a little bit of a role reversal probably
for us because I'm pretty adventurous
and pretty much like Yolo, let's do whatever we wanna do,
uh, like let's adventure.
And so I think,
and he's usually a little bit more conservative, so I think
it scared me a little bit.
And I most was concerned about our kids
and just that transition
for them and what that would be like.
But they really, almost all of them for most
of the time we were talking about it,
were really actually wanting to move.
They were up for moving. Yeah.
So, and we had been out here to visit a few times
and so it really actually helped to make,
build some connections out here with you,
with other people that we know out here.
So I think over time kind of starting to build some of
that helped in our final decision
to actually make it happen.
- So. Well, we're glad you're here. Thank you.
- I'm glad too. - Yeah.
So let's maybe just put your faith in into context.
We, I think a lot of people in the leading Saints audience,
they've heard Jeff's story and you know, he is pastor
and his journey.
But, uh, how would you describe your faith
development or your faith journey?
- I grew up in a Christian home in an evangelical home
and went to a private Christian school K through 12.
My family, I actually am one of five kids
and we all went to the same school K through 12.
My family still is very much a part of that school.
So then we also went to the same church all our lives
and my family still is actually attending that church.
And so, and then I went to a, a Christian college
and then I went to a Christian university for my master's.
And so I really have been in kind of a Christian bubble.
Mm-Hmm. , evangelical bubble.
All my, all my life, my personal relationship with the Lord.
I would say probably in, I mean,
I would say at a young age I accepted Jesus into my heart.
And then obviously over time, mm-Hmm.
that became as I developed
and grew, that became more personal and more real for me.
And so obviously as you get older
and like, especially in high school, I felt like
that started to grow and I had a lot of, a lot
of opportunities to kind of practice my faith.
And then when I went away to college, I had to choose
to whether as to whether
or not I was gonna make that like continue, you know,
I'm leaving my parents and so I get the choice
to decide if this is how I want to walk,
if this faith is what I'm choosing.
And so for sure I chose that.
And yeah, I've just gradually continued to learn and grow
and had opportunities to serve and minister. So
- Yeah.
And then you end up marrying someone who becomes a pastor
and I'm just sort of putting it up to our faith tradition
where, you know, even my wife, you know, growing up wanting
to marry a return missionary, it sort of become a,
a stigma to some extent.
And it's unfortunate how it impacts our culture that way.
But it's sort of, you know,
it's been said like in our culture, like, hey,
let's make sure we date return missionaries.
'cause what does that mean? You know, that they,
they have like a foundation of faith or,
or you know, even being married to a bishop, it's sort
of like, oh wow.
They, yeah. So I mean, is that a thing? Like are
- There expectations for the wife of the bishop?
- I know that, but I, I guess I'm wondering like,
did you see yourself marrying a pastor
and then when, when Jeff ended up becoming a pastor, was,
did your mom like drop it into conversations
with friends like, oh and oh, joy.
Yeah. She married a pastor
and it's sort of like this, uh, you know,
- I don't know if my mom ever had that in conversation,
but I will say that when we were dating in college,
she was very set on being like a rockstar. So, I mean
- Like a literal rockstar, like a
- Literal - Rockstar like in a band. In
- A band, yeah.
Uhhuh. Yeah. He was in a band
and I felt like that was kind of what he was set on
and kind of what he was pursuing.
And I actually, I mean, rockstar
and pastor, like kind of close to one another,
but I actually really felt,
I remember actually having conversation
with the Jeff when we were dating about
how I could see us ministering together.
And I don't know if I specifically knew
that meant being a pastor.
I knew I wanted to probably go to school for counseling.
And so I didn't know what that would look like,
but I just felt that sense that we could do that together.
Yeah. So I do think that there's a stigma attached
with being a pastor's wife.
- Yeah. And I wanna go here
'cause there's a similar stigma for being a bishop's wife
- In our church.
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'm curious about that. And I, I would say
that I'm probably a little bit like I have an aversion
to that stigma
- I think most, most do. Right. I mean, okay.
- I don't know. - But
- I mean, some people might, - I guess I
hope most do. But yeah,
- I think in my experience so far, he pastored
for about 15 years in Illinois before we moved out here.
And I would say that some of my experience
was negative in the sense that people
viewed me differently than I'm,
I'm not super like self-conscious.
So like, I'm not always maybe like being mindful
or like being a people pleaser in terms of like, okay,
what is this person wanting from me?
What are they viewing me as? Whatever.
And so I felt like I was disappointing people a lot.
I felt like there were a lot of expectations on me
that people held me to that didn't maybe feel fair.
And I think also sometimes in relationship it felt maybe one
sided Mm-Hmm.
like in terms of like people wanting
and me giving versus the return. Yeah.
- Yeah. So what, like, what would be some pieces of advice
that you'd give to a new pastor wife
or even a, a bishop wife, like
as they're starting this journey?
Because I think the temptation is like, okay, now all right,
kids, we gotta take it up, uh, to another level here.
Yeah. Because people are looking at us
- Together.
- Yeah. And obviously that leads a lot of shame,
which we're gonna get into later.
Yeah. And you know, the, there's endless stories about the,
the pastor kids, right.
They're the, the bishop kids, you know,
that are really damaged from that church experience 'cause
- From the pressure Yeah.
Those expectations to have to kind of perform
and not be able to be real.
Right. I mean, I think some of that, unfortunately,
I don't always know how
to function real well if I'm not being genuine.
Mm-Hmm. . And so I do think that that kind
of like maybe rub people the wrong way
or can just make difficult then when I'm like in a role
where, where there is that pressure to kind
of be something mm-Hmm.
that maybe I'm not.
And so I don't know what my advice would be.
I mean, I think I do think it's really super important
to stay kind of in touch with yourself and who you are
and almost stay grounded in a sense.
Mm-Hmm. And
so there's probably multiple different ways. Yeah. Is
- There any specific thing you did to stay grounded
during that experience?
- I think developing relationships with people
that really know me and see me. And
- You were joy rather than the pastor's wife, right?
- Yeah. And people that Yeah.
Could be compassionate and understanding
and almost call me back to
and remind me of who I was in times where, you know,
maybe somebody over here is saying something different
and challenging certain things.
And so I think developing deep,
meaningful relationships is really important.
And then, I mean, I always, I'm always a,
an advocate for therapy.
Mm-Hmm. therapy and being honest Yeah.
Is really important. And sometimes, you know,
and this might be something we talk about in a little bit
too, but I think that can be difficult
to do at times when there's shame attached
to honesty. Yeah.
- Yeah. And I appreciate the, you know, doing,
just being willing to do your own work in those things
because I think the, the stigma
and the pressure is like, you know, like we, we've become
to this level because we've figured life out to some extent.
Mm-Hmm. . So I shouldn't need those things.
Mm-Hmm. like, so let's triple down on just
being in the church and being in the community
and rather than taking a breath
and saying, wow, this is really hard,
or I need to talk to somebody, or
- Yeah.
I would say for sure in the context of where we come from,
I think especially just pastors in general, I think one
of the things that we need to do better in terms
of our system, even
for pastors is almost integrating self-care.
Mm-Hmm. because yeah,
somehow we're like in this role, so now we're just going
to like endlessly, you know, care for other people
and be limitless in what we're providing and giving
and offering people as we minister,
which we want to be able to offer.
But it's really a challenge to do that when you're depleted
and when you're not taking care of yourself and your needs
and yeah.
So I think self-care is really super important. Cool.
- Mm-Hmm. Awesome. Alright, well let's, uh,
tell me about your journey becoming a therapist
and how would you describe being a therapist?
Right? Because you're not like clients or,
- I'm officially Yeah.
I'm not. I have a master's in professional counseling.
Okay. I got that about probably 12 years ago.
I think I finished that, it was
after my second kiddo was born
and he was a couple years old that I finished that.
And so I kind of always had in my mind like,
I'm gonna put this, you know, set this aside
for right now while I'm home with my kids.
Mm-Hmm. . And so I have four kids
and last year was the first year
that they finally all were in school.
And so I kind of had in my mind,
like once they're all in school,
I will start pursuing this more part-time even.
And so really any therapy
that I did over the last 15 years has been kind
of just volunteer like things.
And so I have definitely been learning a lot outside of,
you know, I have the masters,
but then the last few years have done a ton of personal work
because of some things that kind
of surfaced the need to do that.
Mm-Hmm. . And so I've actually been learning a
ton and I love learning,
like the information is really fascinating
to me, but I love learning.
So these last few years have spent a lot of time doing a lot
of personal healing and learning about a lot
of different counseling methods that I hadn't learned prior.
Some because they weren't that taught then. Yeah.
And so now that we are actually here in Utah,
that's something that I am wanting to pursue.
I can definitely do therapy without a license,
but I think I am planning
to look into licensure in this state. Yeah.
- So, so what, was there a moment where you thought,
I'm gonna be a therapist, or you're playing with your dolls
as a five-year-old thinking, when
I grow up I wanna be a therapist? Where did that
- Cover?
No, there actually was a moment where I really kind of felt
a call and it was in junior high
and I was at a, I don't know if we were having a bible study
or something, like several girls in the youth group
in the junior high youth group.
And we were sitting around talking
and talking kind of deeply about different things.
And we were reading, I don't remember
what scriptures we were reading,
but then there was a moment where I had actually,
I don't know, in a really like, gracious way kind of,
I don't to say confront,
but like challenged something really kind
of deep for someone.
And that person actually specifically said
to me like, you should be a counselor.
Like her response Oh wow.
Was really, she was really moved by whatever I had said.
And I actually felt like what kind of came out of me
and like my interaction with her in that moment felt like
really maybe natural.
It felt like something like, you know, I wasn't trying
to like impose something in that conversation,
but I felt like almost the spirit was moving in me.
And so I always kind of held onto that
and felt like something about
that just felt like it fit, it felt right.
And so I didn't get my undergrad in counseling
because I knew I would probably need licensure
and a master's anyway to practice.
And so my master's
or my, my bachelor's is in speech communication,
which is half psychology, half sociology.
So I still like, loved
that information that I was learning there.
But then I went on for professional counseling
and loved every second of That's cool
- School. So
- Awesome.
- Yeah. And it always helps when there's a part
of like feeling called by God to into
that world and Yeah. It
- Feels important.
Yeah. Especially in a, in a role that is difficult
and comes with challenges and where you're serving.
Like, it feels important to know that
that's something the Lord's wanting you to do. Yeah.
- Mm-Hmm. . And that's sort of led to some
of the conversations we've had, you know?
Mm-Hmm. , I've written the,
the book recently is God disappointed Me Removing shame from
a Gospel of grace And from my own experience,
the more I've talked with therapists,
the more I've understand these dynamics of shame,
the more I've been able to recognize it in my own life.
Like Oh wow. Like for several years I was just sort
of driven by shame and was God in that and or
'cause shame works as far as like Yes.
Motivating people. Right. It's effective. Yeah.
It's very effective. Mm-Hmm. And so the temptation, even
as a parent, I'm like, well,
I mean maybe sometimes I gotta pull out the shame and,
and get things going here.
But, but I wanted to really explore it in the context
of my faith, our theology.
Mm-Hmm. . And what I've,
what co the conclusion I came to is
that God doesn't use shame.
He's a god of love and a God of grace.
And, you know, shame and disappointment can coexist.
Or I'm sorry, shame and grace can't coexist.
Disappointment and grace can't coexist.
And so what does this look like in day-to-day life?
And so when you think of like shame, like just introduce us
to this world, like especially in the world of, of religion,
a Christian world Mm-Hmm.
Christian faith journey and shame.
Like, where do we begin to understand this concept or
- Of what shame is?
- Yeah. What shame is or what role it plays
and why we should desham things or
- Desham.
Okay. I would say I might need a second to kind
of think about this answer.
- Let, let me, uh, let me try this.
Like, like people, a lot of people especially
who leave faith Mm-Hmm.
, they look back at their experience
and they just feel a lot of shame.
Mm-Hmm. that, you know,
I was never good enough for my
parents, for my faith community.
And, uh, we've misused shame Mm-Hmm. In so many ways.
And so just des shaming
or the nons shame approach to things, right.
Because it's so easy to default to shame. Right.
So from a fate, like if you're talking to pastors,
'cause even pastors sometimes will rely on this concept
through their sermons, or one-on-one counseling of like,
well, let me write my use a little shame here
to make sure you get back on track. Right? Sure.
- To help control. Yeah.
- So why, why shouldn't we use that?
Why not? Mm-Hmm. go the,
the route of shame. Mm-Hmm. .
- Well, because I don't believe that that is
the love of God.
Mm-Hmm. , we don't experience his love
through shame, um, or his grace.
And I would say shame is, I think I'm right in saying this,
that shame you can't experience shame except in connection
to another person in connection to, it's a
- Relationship - Thing, right?
Yeah. It's a relational, what's the word?
Like experience, dynamic experience. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And shame not only like you can do something wrong
and you can ask the question like,
or feel the conviction of like, okay, I need to change this.
Like, this is sad, this isn't right, this isn't correct.
Without feeling like you can feel like I did something bad,
this was bad without feeling like I am bad.
Mm-Hmm. . So I think in your book too,
you talk about identity
and shame being an attack on our identity and Absolutely.
And I think through that, through shame, we often,
our response is often to hide.
Mm-Hmm. , right? Yeah.
So we become isolated
and disconnected from our communities. Yeah.
- Mm-Hmm. Yeah. And I appreciate you emphasizing that.
It's a, it's a relational thing
and that's that, you know, acceptance is at the court.
Like, if, if I'm experiencing shame,
that means I'm not accepted here
or I'm not accepted in this relationship.
And so, and, and from the moment we're born, right?
Like Mm-Hmm. , we come into the
world feeling accepted. Like, well, we're
- Yeah.
- When we cry, we expect to be fed when we,
or have our diaper changed or whatever. Right,
- Right.
Like the, we're designed to be connected and attached. Yeah.
And there's a lot of attachment theory.
- Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's a whole nother theory,
- Right?
Yeah. Which really is connected too to shame
as well. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Mm-Hmm.
- . And so from your experience,
or just in the context of faith, right?
Like how can we begin to approach
to helping people without relying on shame or,
or, I don't know, if a story comes to mind
where you felt shame, you know, in, in your life or,
and how you dealt with that?
Or when you meet with people as a therapist, like
how are you helping them through shame
and to live life without, because it's so fun with shame?
- I think there is something really super powerful about
being able to be present with someone,
even if it is in their shame, to hear someone, to make space
for someone, to allow someone to use their voice.
And to almost not hide, to allow someone to like show up.
There's something really powerful
and transformative that happens just even in our
presence with one another.
And to be able to do so.
And I think this is a little bit to connect it back
to even Hello Saints.
Like, I think this is a little bit the
approach with Hello Saints.
Like to be able to come
and allow space without there being judgment.
Mm-Hmm. , like, I know that part of healing
for me has looked like me being able to be honest
and say, say what I feel ashamed of, say
what I feel like is wrong, say and communicate
and express the feelings that I have about something
that I have like long buried,
because I have felt like, oh,
this is not okay, this is wrong.
And yet it's real for me
that I'm experiencing these bad feelings.
Mm-Hmm. . So sometimes I think,
even sometimes unintentionally I think sometimes our
religion, even for me personally,
for my own personal experience in reading scripture
and in wanting to do right, and in wanting to be obedient
and honor God, I would hear certain commands
or certain scriptures, certain rules, and I can try
and think of an example of one,
but something in wanting to honor the Lord.
Like I felt like, okay, well this is what is right.
And so behaviorally I'm choosing this even if my heart isn't
totally aligned with this Mm-Hmm.
because I know that this is right.
But then I would feel shame and bury
and kind of repress parts of me, parts of my heart that
that aren't, that I'm assuming are not correct
- Because your heart really wasn't there.
You're not being completely sincere just going through the
- Motion, but there's not this complete like transformation
in my heart that is aligned.
And so I'm hiding, I'm hiding these parts of me that
I think are sinful or wrong or disobedient,
and I'm really genuinely trying to honor the Lord.
But in so doing, I've disconnected from almost his love
and his grace and my brokenness.
Like I'm, you know, trying to just kind
of maintain this Yeah.
I'm in this place over here.
- Yeah. Now what you described is
extremely human experience, right?
Mm-Hmm. . And, and this leads to why
so much therapy is needed, because the authenticity
between our, who we think our true
self is and what we're doing.
Mm-Hmm. , there's a gap. Right? Right.
And, you know, we talk about like sin Mm-Hmm.
, this is often how, how we cope when there's
a, there's a dissonance there between
who we think we are and what we're doing.
Mm-Hmm. . And, you know, we're sort of hiding.
We, we can't, we can't reconcile that. So Mm-Hmm.
we'll turn to sin or we'll turn
to other ways to numb out.
Is that a fair way to say it?
Or how, where am I off there as far as what,
what do we do with that experience? Typically?
- What do we do? Meaning - When we fill that gap,
- When we feel that gap, yeah.
Sometimes people may not even realize that they're,
they're feeling that gap or why they're feeling that gap.
So I would say you're talking about sin,
and in my mind, as I've done some healing work, I've started
to kind of frame sin a little bit differently for myself
as I've done, as I've worked through trauma.
Mm-Hmm. . And instead of the ways
that I've kind of always regularly viewed myself as this,
like, just I'm this like terrible worm of a person,
which, which I am like , I'm, there's,
there's lots of grace for me.
Right. Um, and yet like I was created
by the Lord, and I am dearly loved
and beloved, and sometimes I have a little bit
of an aversion to the word beloved.
I feel like it's kind of trendy word right now.
Uh, but they're really in my healing that
that has happened in my heart.
Like that is actually, literally what I've experienced is,
is this sense
and this felt sense of knowing that I'm beloved.
Mm-Hmm. And sin oftentimes causes us to,
basically it's us trying to meet some sort of need.
Mm-Hmm. So I kind of always am now asking myself this
question, if I see myself sinning or feel tempted to sin
or see other people sinning and,
and see them entering into that, I'm, I'm wondering, okay,
what is, what is our need?
What is your need? What is my need?
When I am choosing to do something like that,
and instead of viewing myself as wrong and terrible
and horrible and kind of this shame-based response to that,
I am able to actually look
and see, oh wow, this is actually correct in the sense that
you were designed with a need Mm-Hmm.
. And your need is not
something to be ashamed of.
Right. I think that's a lot of
personal healing I've done is,
is realizing I grew up in a space
where I couldn't have a need,
and I had to oftentimes reign that in
and feel shame for things that were very natural
and for things that we were designed for.
And so, so recognizing the beauty
in our design in that there's no shame in having a need.
Right. Or even having a desire.
There's absolutely no shame in that,
but finding ways that are honoring to God
to ourselves, to others, to meet those needs,
and being able also to just be honest about those things
and confessing those things without shame attached to them.
- Yeah. You know, as I have a friend
who actually is a therapist,
and so maybe he knows these right things to say,
but as I've reached out to him going
through different tough times with different relationships,
one of the most powerful things he says he has said
to me is, you deserve to have your needs met.
Right. And I've used that
with other relationships when I'm giving counsel,
and it's so empowering,
and it's one of those things like on paper's, like,
well, yeah, duh, but it's simple.
Yeah. When you, when you hear that in that moment of shame,
you're like, oh, good.
So I can, I'm not crazy here. Like Right. You're right.
And even going back to never do we get mad
or frustrated with our newborn for needing to eat again.
Right. Or Mm-Hmm. Oh, you pooped your pants.
Like what really, like isn't about time you get a job.
Right. We're never frustrated the need. Right.
The newborn has Mm-Hmm. But then
as we progress in mortality, that somehow how
that message gets turned off of like,
I can't believe you, you need this.
You know? Right. And that's the shame just,
just flows in. Right.
- Right. Yeah. And we're created, we're absolutely created
with needs and with desires.
- Let, let me ask you this question before a quick thing.
You said that you said, you know, I'm just a,
a worm, but I am a worm.
Mm-Hmm. , and this is an important dynamic
that, that is really attached to shame is so often
we're afraid of letting people know
or admitting that we're broken.
Mm-Hmm. . But it's in
that state of brokenness Mm-Hmm.
That orients us towards Jesus. Yes. Right.
But it's, there's such a nuance in there
that when we feel broken Yes.
We can also shift to shame. Right. Which is away from Jesus.
Right. Right. And so I,
the debate comes up a lot in like addict circles.
Like there, there's like one camp
that says you should never say you're an addict.
Like, 'cause that's admitting to your weakness,
and that will just perpetuate the weakness.
Sure. But I feel like some people find it very empowering
to say, I'm an addict
because in a way they're saying,
I'm broken and I need Jesus.
Mm-Hmm. Right. But it's the people who
- Say they're acknowledging their need Yeah.
- The the need that, right. Yes.
And so this is where the, I feel like it's really valuable
for leaders to understand that when somebody's sinning
or somebody is under a lot of shame, they're screaming
that they need something.
Mm-Hmm. . And your j your job isn't necessarily
to fix their behavior, their sin,
but how can we figure out what do they need?
Yeah. And, and make sure they're getting that
- Right.
So you're asking how to figure out what people need?
Well, yeah. Or, or how people can identify for themselves.
- Yeah. Or, or what, how, how else would you articulate just
that dynamic that's happening as far as this need for Jesus?
'cause we need Jesus Mm-Hmm.
, but sometimes the having
the need feels so shameful.
How do we help people with that, that dynamic? Yeah.
- I mean, I think in my context
and what I've learned, like it really is
so attachment based Mm-Hmm.
to me. So I think someone over here could be
experiencing the same brokenness or level of brokenness,
but they're doing it in connection
and in relationship to people,
and they're sharing about that Mm-Hmm.
experience. And I think that there is a lot of
healing and wholeness
that can take place in connection with other people.
I think it gets really difficult when we are isolated
and alone, which is where the enemy would want us
to be in our brokenness, where we feel like we have
to be on our own in that, like
we are connected to one another.
And so our brokenness is really nothing
to be ashamed of.
There actually is kind of what you're saying.
Like, it's an opportunity to be
oriented towards the Lord and his grace.
Mm-Hmm. . And so I have come to realize like,
I don't need to be afraid of my brokenness.
Mm-Hmm. And I don't need to be afraid of your brokenness,
because this is how we, this is reality.
This is life. This is how we live and function.
And there is so much opportunity
for something really beautiful
and almost glorious in these like, crevices between
what we feel like we want to be what we are
and what we want to be.
And I think the Lord's grace meets us in
between those places and kind of holds all
of that together. Yeah.
- Mm-Hmm. Yeah. And this makes my mind goes
to often call it the cousin to shame, which is stigma.
Right. It's like, yeah, joy, I get it.
Like, we need to admit that we're broken,
and of course we need Jesus.
Yes. Yes. But I mean, dealing with a guy's,
he's looking at pornography several times a day.
Mm. That's the, the stigma's there, right? Mm-Hmm.
like, yeah, sure. I get mad at my kids
sometimes, but this guy, you know, he's,
he's really sinning in a way that's a problem.
Right? Mm-Hmm. And so, and
what comes to mind with that dynamic?
Like with the stigma of it, where, where that's why a lot
of people, they feel so much shame that their stigma
and then they definitely can't show this. Right?
- Yeah. I mean, I do think that in order to receive grace,
you, whether there's stigma
or not, it requires a certain degree of humility
and a certain degree of like acknowledging
wrongdoing or brokenness.
And so I guess I would say there's really no way
to like necessarily remove that stigma.
Yeah. I think it's more a matter of like allowing yourself
to be humbled and to be honest
and to need. Yeah.
- Yeah. So I'm curious,
just taking it a more practical level of, you know,
a bishop is there, he,
he doesn't want any shame in his
office as he's meeting with people.
Mm-Hmm. an individual comes in
and maybe there's moments, you know,
we all experience this as parents too.
I mean, kids feel shame all the time. Mm-Hmm.
Or especially adult kids.
But when that person comes in
and they're feeling, they're buried in that shame
and that stigma, and they're, they're acting out sinfully
of where do we begin there?
- I mean, where I would begin is to simply listen. Mm-Hmm.
and appreciate, I mean, the fact
that a person would be sharing with you Yeah.
That they're even stuck in their shame
is really a privilege.
And honoring their voice
and their willingness to share
whether they're stuck there or not.
And knowing that people are a process
that gets really right.
Mm-Hmm. that gets annoying,
but , it's just like, this is like, this is life.
Yeah. And this is people, and like
people don't walk in the door.
And I know, even in my own personal work, I have come back
to the same place.
And especially with trauma specifically,
like you end up kind of, you almost default back to a place.
And so I've had to rework and rework and keep untangling
and keep untangling the same thing
over and over and over again.
And so it takes time and it takes presence and it takes love
and it takes, I mean,
that person coming in the office needs just
as much grace as I do.
And so, but I do think that there is opportunity
to recognize like where someone maybe is acting out in
certain ways, like that can indicate, you know, places
where there has been harm.
Yeah. Before that, in my personal story,
which is actually very public, I had an experience
with a youth, pa youth pastor that was abusive.
And this was in high school.
And I didn't realize until a few years ago, I mean,
I think I knew all along that this was not right,
but I always took personal blame
and moved on with carrying the abuse,
and I carried it as shame.
I carried it as what's wrong with me.
And so I didn't realize until a few years ago,
whenever the church this happened at, reached out to me.
And we kind of began this journey of pursuing justice
and healing not just for me,
but other people involved as well, where
I'm acting out in one way.
Like, I didn't realize, especially
because some of the wounds that occurred
to me happened in my childhood.
I didn't connect some of my behaviors to those things.
And so I carried the, that as shame
and even my current behavior as shame.
Instead of saying what is wrong with me,
which was my whole life, I started saying what happened
to me and started seeing through ice of compassion,
being able to look at my story
and look at certain instances that were really
actually damaging and starting to discuss
and process those instead of burying those.
And then trying to like kind of just survive over that
and get my needs met, which now I have more needs.
Right. 'cause I've been wounded, but I don't realize it.
And so I'm trying to meet those needs in ways
that are counterproductive. Yeah.
- 'cause you're not just hungry and tired, like Right.
We, that words
- The baby, the natural, normal need. Right? Yeah.
- But now it's this other need.
'cause this wound is screaming deeper and
- Uglier. Yeah.
- So much appreciate that framing you give of,
of not what's wrong here, but what happened here.
Mm-Hmm. And, and for a, a bishop
or a church leader, like that's so helpful to walk into
because it's so the sin is screaming.
Mm-Hmm. Like, listen, you can't be looking
at pornography or Mm-Hmm.
You know, you're treating your family like this,
or I can't believe you did this.
We're we're focused on what's wrong. Mm-Hmm.
, you know, because sin is wrong. I mean,
I'll be the first to admit, sin will destroy you.
It will decay you from the inside out. Mm-Hmm.
. Like, we know that. And so it's easy
to be like, well, we gotta get the sin,
the behavior handled.
But it's so refreshing to maybe step back
and be like, what happened?
- But what does sin destroy in us?
Because I feel like I've always heard that I've grew,
grown up in a Christian circle, so I've always heard Yeah.
Like, sin will destroy you
and you need to, you know, we need
to not sin and we need to do this.
And there's this almost legalistic, like Yeah. Yeah.
I was very good at like, doing what I knew to be. Right.
Right. And I really genuinely felt like I wanted
to honor the Lord, but I wasn't, because I couldn't view
and understand my story through the eyes of compassion.
I wasn't able to wholly choose righteousness
because I was disconnecting from myself, my body,
my feelings, my emotions. And so,
- So this is where the rub is.
I, I'll interject here because this is where I,
why I bring up stigma a lot.
Like, 'cause me, if you look at my life,
like I've done all the things I, you know,
graduated from seminary, went on a mission,
I became a bishop, you know,
like somebody could look at my life and like, you're
- Writing a book about grace.
- Yeah. Right. I'm, I'm a I'm published author.
Like, and this is, this is The Rub.
Because someone would be like, well, Kurt,
and I use this analogy of like, if, if the savior came
to you right now and said, said, Kurt, I'm here to heal you.
What can I heal? I'd look at him and be like, I'm good.
I mean, my shoulder kind of slept on it wrong.
You, you know. Yeah. Or, and this is where I think a lot
of like church leaders that are like, I don't see
where my problem is, but
because there's not some stigmatized sin that we're hiding,
but we are turning to other things that aren't the savior.
Because there's this dissonance here.
It's nobody, as Brene Brown says, nobody writes for free.
Right. Like everybody's, everybody's got,
so this is why it's so important is
that even though you are doing all the things Mm-Hmm.
, like I was doing all the things. Mm-Hmm.
, like, I got the commandments down.
I do, you know, I read the scriptures, I do the things,
but that doesn't mean that you, you're proving
that there's not a brokenness in you.
- Yeah. Yeah. And I think what,
what we were talking about a minute ago about like,
the enemy is like destroying something
like sin will destroy.
Right. And I was asking, what is that destroying for me?
I've learned what it has destroyed is my identity. Mm-Hmm.
in terms of my belovedness. Yeah.
And not having to do anything. I have to do nothing.
Absolutely nothing. It is simply the pure grace of God
that allows me to experience that belovedness.
And I would say in my story, I knew, I knew the truth
that God loves me, but I hadn't felt it.
I hadn't allowed myself
to really deeply feel it and know it.
And I would say that my healing has restored the feeling
of being beloved.
Yeah. And knowing that.
- Yeah. And that's sort of the center of, of the book
that I want to get across is that oftentimes we say, we,
we get on, on paper.
Yeah. God loves you. Yeah. Yeah.
We learn, we learn that all the way, you know, from nursery
and primary, but man, he, he's kind
of disappointed in you, you know?
Mm. You're, you keep frustrating a little bit.
I mean, he loves you just like, I love my kids,
but my parents, my my kids kind of frustrated me
and you're kind of frustrating God.
And that's where we have, we've held off that grace
that completely loves us.
Like no, no, no. Like you're beloved. Mm-Hmm.
like completely mm-Hmm. Like right now.
Mm-Hmm. . Not if you
do all these things. Right.
- Right. Yeah. Yeah. - That's the power of grace.
- Absolutely. Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah. It's amazing.
Amazing grace. Do you know that song? Or
- Let's, let's let sing you start. No, I'm just kidding.
- Uh, okay. Just kidding. I mean, I would sing it
with you if you want it, but it's fine.
Even with grace, it doesn't mean
that our lives will be pain-free.
Mm-Hmm. that if we know our belovedness,
that our lives will be void of
- Pain, sunshine and butterflies from here on. Right.
- I know. It'd be great. - But,
and it feels that way in the moment you're like to be saved.
Like, to feel that is like Yeah.
When you think life is good for now, .
- Yeah. When you experience God's grace,
like in a really deep way and feel his love in that way.
Like we want to just stay in that Mm-Hmm.
place forever and always,
but there's going to be pain.
And so I think another thing that I've personally learned
and seen in the lives of other people too, that have had
to heal is that a lot of times in order to experience
and feel and know God's grace
and his love, we are going to,
we are going to walk through grief.
We're going to have to navigate grief and sorrow.
And that feels awful.
And yet on the other side of that Mm-Hmm.
and through that path is something
incredible and amazing.
And you almost can't achieve, you can't feel
and know in that way when you haven't allowed yourself to go
to those hard dark places to feel that pain. Yeah.
- Yeah. That's powerful. So a few terms I think
that are more readily used in the evangelical faith
tradition that I've sort of learned more about,
and it's really helped me sort of contextualize some
of these, these dynamics.
This is concept of healing of even woundedness.
Like I have a chapter in my book about wounding. Yes.
I've had several people approach me.
So I, I just don't quite get it yet.
Like, I don't, um, I don't know if we do as well of a job
as sort of articulating the brokenness that we experienced
because we, we want to sort of just hold up the expectation
of like, well, but just do the things
and you don't have to talk about your brokenness.
Right. And that's a, on the surface it feels like an
encouraging message, but it's not
because it gives more reason to hide.
Right. To hide. And even this,
and we'll, we'll touch on all these,
but spiritual warfare is another one. Mm-Hmm. That is very
- Foreign to us.
That's a new terminology for you. Yes.
What do you, what kind of terminology do you use?
- Well, here's the thing is we talk about the adversary
and we know, you know, he's tempting us.
He's coming after us. I worry sometimes,
and I don't think this is just a latter, a saint experience,
but we sort of categorize, he's sort of like a,
the bad guy on Saturday morning cartoons.
Like yeah, we know he is evil, but ah, you know,
but you don't think too much about it.
Where in reality, like no.
Like Satan will, like he will, he's coming
to destroy us. He's not like
- He's prowling around like a lion looking to this story.
Exactly. That to devour that
- Script, to devour.
I love that scripture Right. To devour. He's not like trying
- To, it's not the scripture you have up on your wall.
Yeah. Should be. You love that scripture.
- It should be. I love that scripture. It's cross stitched.
So . But so I, I sometimes we,
we talk about the adversary sort of
as this thing in the greater picture of our theology.
Hmm. But hearing it in spiritual warfare of like, wait,
I was born into a world at war, like,
and so that really helps me get my guard up a little bit
better rather than, 'cause Right.
When we sin, I think we blame ourselves
and we don't consider No, there's an adversary
that keeps coming after you.
Right. And take that into the calculation of it
- And what is he trying to attack?
Right. He's trying to attack your identity. Yeah.
- And our, through our wounding, I would imagine. Right,
- Right.
Yeah. Through our wounding, through our pain. Yeah.
I think our pain presents an opportunity to the enemy.
And I think a lot of times, and this is my own personal
theory, when it comes to like counseling
and people that come in with dysfunction in different ways,
I think oftentimes it's because of people's pain.
They're looking for ways, you know,
we end up choosing things that we're trying to alleviate,
relieve ourselves of pain, numb ourselves from pain,
and that can lead to problems.
And so it feels really important to be able to know
what it looks like to handle our pain in a way that
- Would you say where there's healing.
- Yeah. Learning to allow our pain to lead us to Jesus
as opposed to a away from Jesus. Yeah.
- Because I was saying, our faith tradition is like,
you recognize there's hurt, there's pain,
life isn't going well,
and we often default to the behaviors like, well, you know,
just really get into your scripture study.
- Accountability. - Yeah. Accountability. Yeah.
You know, really pray and get to the temple more often.
And, and again, these are all good things,
but we're trying to solve the problem the wrong way.
Mm-Hmm. . And that's where your question of
what happened is so powerful rather than what's wrong.
- Well, and I think one of the words I haven't really used
here that I like to use, 'cause I feel like it's
significant, is that a lot
of times our theology about certain things
or our belief that our behaviors should be the priority
causes us to bypass.
And this is kind of what we were talking about earlier,
but we bypass our hearts, we bypass our feelings,
our emotions, and try to just achieve this behavior
and what looks good on the outside, where on the
inside we're still a mess.
Mm-Hmm. . Right. There's like,
there's nothing substantial there in terms of healing.
And, and sometimes I've had to untangle some of my theology
in order to allow myself to feel without shame.
- Okay. Tell me more about that. Like what does
that look like as far as untangle theology?
Because you'd think the theology just leads you to
that place, but it can be cumbersome.
- Yeah. Yeah. Where, where sometimes, you know, our theology
or our religion can become a legalistic form
of like right and wrong
and do this, don't do this versus the gospel,
which is like transformative for us.
So I would say, I'm trying to think
of like actual scriptures that I know I like clung
to things like always be joyful, pray continually,
and give thanks for whatever happens.
This is like my life verse. Like this is the verse I love.
And at the same time, there, there is a demand in that verse
that has caused me often to not allow myself
to be honest about the times I'm not joyful
or the times that I'm not thankful,
or when it says, don't be anxious about anything.
Well, I'm over here anxious, trying to like,
meet this demand of don't be anxious. Mm.
- Or fear not. Right. - Fear not. Yeah.
And how do I look at Yeah.
How do I like try and like maintain this? Right? Right.
Like, oh, I'm not gonna be
anxious, I'm not gonna be worried.
I trust God. You know, whatever. Just in, in appearances.
Mm-Hmm. versus really deep internally,
like experiencing that.
Those are just a couple Yeah.
Examples of like ways I almost have felt forced
to bypass the reality of my
embodied existence, my humanness.
- Yeah. This is ing and I, I appreciate you bringing up,
'cause in our tradition it's like, we'll go to the temple
and we're in the temple and we're still like a mess.
Right? And it's like, no, no, no. You're in the temple.
Like, relax. Mm-Hmm. , you're here. Mm-Hmm.
Like, yeah, but I can't, I still have
to reconcile these feelings or Mm-Hmm.
You know, I can't get past them. Mm.
But and so that's where like almost the, the, you have to
separate all those things and lay 'em out
so you can see 'em all together rather than try
and solve it through that theology
- And where you're saying like, I have to get past this.
Like, I am uhhuh, whatever's going on
inside, I have to like, that's a problem.
- Fix - It. Yeah. I need to like do what's right
and be what's right and think about what's right
and take every thought captive
and like have it all pulled together.
Know like how to be living rightly right now.
And at the same time, I think really
what the Lord wants is like no, like bring me all of that.
Like I, that is the sacrifice he wants. Mm-Hmm.
, he wants like every last bit of your mess
that you feel internally, every last bit
of your shame that you're experiencing.
He wants that. He wants to see it.
- Yeah. And almost like suffer with you
through it. Right? Yes. That
- Be with you in it.
- Like, he wants you to feel that anxiety he
- Is with you in it, whether you know it or not.
Yeah, exactly. Even when you're feeling shame. Yeah.
And living in a place that is isolated and alone.
You, he is with you there too. Yeah.
Whether you feel it or know it, he is there.
- And that's the power of his suffering that he went through
with us is that he's the only person he's to be like,
I know, I know exactly where you're at.
I know exactly what you're feeling.
There's even an example, not necessarily scriptural
in the new chosen Yeah.
Where we want, like, you're the savior, fix it. Mm-Hmm.
Like, just heal it, make it go away. Mm-Hmm.
Like, isn't that your job? But instead he just says, I'm
so sorry you are
- There.
Yeah. And I remember in the chosen,
we just watched that the other night,
- Um, not biblical.
Okay, we get it. But anyways,
- .
But it was talking about how Jesus is the man of sorrows.
Yeah. They like brought that up. Yeah.
- That's powerful to see. It is
- Powerful to see.
And I, I was actually having a conversation
with Jeff on the way here
and kind of looking back at some like, different notes
that I had taken when I was in a really kind of like,
intense part of my processing and healing.
And like, one of the things
that I felt like the Lord kept kind of reminding me
of is like, if we don't know sorrow,
we don't know God if we haven't experienced grief,
like we haven't experienced, we haven't experienced
what God knows and what God is well acquainted with
and there's something we want to, we spend our lives trying
to like shy away from that and trying to run away from that.
Trying to not feel that pain.
So there's a difference between like feeling our grief
and being able to lament.
And I think that's actually something that our churches,
and I don't know, I don't know in the LDS context
how often there is conversation
or even services around the idea of lament.
But, and I, I have experienced
that in my context to a small degree.
But I think that it would be really powerful
and significant to practice as a community in connection
with one another to practice lamenting Mm-Hmm.
. And not practice like it's fake practice,
but like practice together
and just allow opportunities
for lamenting in a public communal way.
Because our ability to grieve if we know how
to grieve, I don't wanna say grieve.
Well I don't wanna put pressure on like,
you have to grieve the right way.
. And yet I think that
maybe even almost this like a shame-based grief would look
more like torment
and a god-honoring grief would look more like lament
and allowing, allowing our grief
to move towards lament.
And somehow in that there's transformation. Yeah.
- And when you say grief, you know, it's easy to default
to like the funeral or the loss or the cancer diagnosis.
And I think even getting in that space of lamenting with
that individual who's sinning
or who's obviously struggling with an addiction,
but come there with a heart of lamenting
and be like, wow, like this is so hard.
Rather than just doing it at the funeral.
- I think that people experience a lot
of times in isolation from other people, such deep pain
and such deep grief that where do we go with that?
Especially for the person that's isolated.
Like, what does this look like?
Like help me know how to handle my pain in a way
that I don't have to bypass it or dismiss it
or pretend like it's not there,
but allow me to connect with you in my brokenness
and allow space for me to feel really hard things.
And for that, not to mean that I'm a terrible human,
but really that I am human and that, that I am human. Yeah.
- And maybe, and I'm always drawn here as far as the,
the practicality of it all.
Like what does that look like? Because oftentimes I,
my heart breaks when I hear that
and I feel it myself sometimes when someone goes
through a tragedy or is needs that lamenting,
it's like I'm just, just give 'em space.
You know? They're going through a lot.
Let's just give 'em space.
And I don't, I don't wanna burden them
with showing up unexpected, but,
and that's, they need actually the opposite, right?
They need that community who's
willing to, to lament with them.
And so how do we do
that when maybe I've never lost a child or I've never had cancer.
Sure. And so I don't know how to show up for you,
and what if I say the wrong thing, joy,
and then I make it worse?
Or, you know, what comes to mind as far
as the practicality of doing that?
- I mean, I think it depends a little bit on the situation,
because I think that even outside of like a tragic loss
or something very clear to everyone
that you should be grieving or lamenting.
Mm-Hmm. . Like, I think that there are ways to
almost train ourselves to move towards a posture
of lament and allow ourselves just in our mindsets,
it feels bigger than just like, oh, I need to be
with you in your grief right now is you're like,
you've just tragically lost someone.
But like, almost systematically, like making space for
and valuing our grief not to run away from it,
but to discover something through it
and making it safe to move through that,
that I'm not gonna be outcast.
So I feel like it has to do with our attitudes
and our mindsets and sometimes the systems that we're in
that can kind of then practically
play out in what does this look like.
So, I mean, we just had a service at the church
that we attend recently.
There was a service called an Empty Chair service.
And it was kind of based on this idea of being able to come
and lament and it was around the holidays.
So it was really aimed towards people
that were experiencing grief or loss around that season.
And just literally having a service
and making space for you to feel those things
and express those things and bring them before the Lord
and do it within community.
And I mean, I think there's lots of opportunities
'cause yeah, grief can look like losing a loved one,
but it looks so many other ways as well.
Yeah. It can look like just needing to process abuse
that you experienced or some sort of other loss.
- My mind goes, I dunno if this is a,
this maybe too superficial way of framing it,
but just coming together as a community,
we're in a relationship
and recognizing the hurt, the pain, the loss,
whatever it is, without any intention of trying to fix it.
- Yeah. And not being afraid of it for one another.
Like I think sometimes we wanna pull people away
from their pain.
Yeah. And really that pain can be
such a transformative place.
We're doing each other a disservice to not actually be able
to be present for other people when they're in that place.
- And as a church leader, sometimes so much pressure of
that person coming in heartbroken for whatever reason.
And you feel like I am failing if they don't
walk out of this office.
Mm-Hmm. That upbeat back on top, you know? Mm-Hmm.
But there's so much power in just coming
and saying what happened and sitting with it.
Yes. With no intention of fixing it. 100%.
Saying like, let's do this again. Yeah. Wow.
I feel like because that,
that healing happens whether we re recognize it or not.
- Yeah. And healing takes a lot of time
and healing actually requires a lot
of feeling of discomfort.
So it is really super important to be able to a laugh space
and be present nonjudgmentally non pressuring for
recovery and for whatever,
but just genuinely meeting a person where they are. Yeah.
- Awesome. Any other point, principle concept
that you wanna explain before we wrap up? Or I
- Think maybe I would,
I don't know if we touched on this very much, but,
and I don't know exactly how I would say it.
I know in your book you're talking about like shame having
like, like you can't experience disappointment
and grace at the same time, that sort of thing.
But I almost would connect it also to compassion.
I don't know if you're familiar with Dan a I don't think
- So.
- He's a Christian therapist, author,
I believe he's a professor as well.
And he specifically specializes in like sexual
abuse and trauma.
But he has written a few really excellent books
and he talks a lot about the subject of shame.
And one of the things that I have kind
of taken from his book that I not only really resonate with
and have experienced, but I see,
and it really like makes sense the connection.
But a lot of times where there's shame,
there's also self-hatred.
So, and oftentimes it can actually look like self-hatred
or it can look like contempt for others.
And oftentimes we, you, I think he kind
of talks about it in terms of like, you will,
the contempt is almost a way
to keep someone away from your shame.
It's almost protecting you from other people seeing
- Yeah.
Because that person does not wanna get to know you. Right.
If you keep pushing them that way. Yeah. Or
- If you hate yourself and keep yourself hidden too.
But his books are really excellent
and really talk about the subject
of shame in a grace based way as well.
And I would just say, I think in some
of my last thoughts, like simply is that one thing
that transforms shame is compassion.
And I think where they're, you're experiencing pain
and disconnect
and isolation when there can be connection made
with other people and you experience other people moving
towards you and compassion.
In my own personal experience, I've experienced shame
as being very much connected to self contempt.
And the way that I've experienced
that being transformed in my life has been the experience
of not only the Lord's grace, but his compassion.
- Perfect. So if people want to listen to your, your episode
with, uh, Jeff on the Hello Saints podcast.
Yep. Where should they go to learn more about Hello Saints.
- Hello Saints channel on YouTube has his YouTube videos
and his podcast videos on there.
And then any, any podcasting platform has
his podcast available. Awesome.
- Mm-Hmm. . Okay. Last question I have
for you is, as just on your own
personal journey with Mm-Hmm.
wounding trauma healing, like,
how would you articulate the way that Jesus has shown up
for you and all that and offer healing? Are
- You trying to get me to cry at the end here?
I This is what you do. Okay. Oh wow.
I would say Jesus has held me together .
I would say I have experienced a depth,
I have allowed myself to kind of explore
and experience a depth of brokenness
that I have long avoided.
And then in the midst of trying to heal,
there have also been other really heartbreaking situations
or circumstances that have come up for me connected
to healing that have been even more deeply shattering.
And so it's even a little, I dunno,
shocking is the right word, but like to even be able to,
able to sit here and express God's love for me
that I've experienced and felt in the midst of some
of the deepest, darkest places in pain in my life.
I just simply would say like, there is something
under me just completely holding every single piece
of my brokenness and my shatteredness.
And I think being able to come and sit and talk
and not be ashamed of my brokenness
or afraid of my brokenness is the way that he's shown up
because I don't, I don't need to have it together.
And none of us really actually do.
And I long for what I find on the other side
of my brokenness and that is his grace and his love.
- Now that we've reached the end of the episode,
I quickly wanna thank you
for supporting the Leading Saints podcast.
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Okay. Maybe not that far, but seriously, thank you.
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- It came as a result of the position of leadership,
which was imposed upon us by the God of Heaven
who brought forth a restoration of the gospel
of Jesus Christ.
And when the Declaration was made concerning the own
and only true in living church upon the face of the earth,
we were immediately put in a position of loneliness.
The loneliness of leadership
from which we cannot shrink nor run away.
And to which we must face up with boldness and courage
and ability.