1 00:00:02,235 --> 00:00:04,325 - Have you ever had a loved one leave the church 2 00:00:04,585 --> 00:00:06,965 and your relationship becomes awkward. 3 00:00:07,395 --> 00:00:09,525 This is so common and so sad. 4 00:00:10,045 --> 00:00:12,045 I got the chance to interview the Packard family 5 00:00:12,105 --> 00:00:13,565 who have been down this road. 6 00:00:13,975 --> 00:00:16,685 Cindy and Blair Packard are Orthodox believing parents 7 00:00:16,785 --> 00:00:20,245 and Josh, their son and his wife, have left the church. 8 00:00:20,585 --> 00:00:22,685 We came together to discuss their journey, 9 00:00:22,985 --> 00:00:24,845 and it was amazing what they taught. 10 00:00:25,075 --> 00:00:27,445 They talked about the communications that you regretted 11 00:00:27,625 --> 00:00:29,245 and how other siblings responded 12 00:00:29,245 --> 00:00:30,605 in positive and negative ways. 13 00:00:31,035 --> 00:00:32,525 They learned how to pick up the pieces. 14 00:00:32,615 --> 00:00:34,805 Again, express love, carry on, 15 00:00:34,985 --> 00:00:36,685 and build a beautiful relationship. 16 00:00:37,075 --> 00:00:39,045 This has become a favorite in the 17 00:00:39,205 --> 00:00:40,445 Questioning Saints Virtual Library. 18 00:00:40,905 --> 00:00:42,325 You can actually gain access 19 00:00:42,345 --> 00:00:45,325 to this interview@leadingsaints.org slash 14. 20 00:00:45,595 --> 00:00:48,685 This will give you 14 days to watch the Packards interview 21 00:00:48,865 --> 00:00:51,165 and many others related to helping individuals 22 00:00:51,345 --> 00:00:52,685 who begin to question their faith. 23 00:00:53,185 --> 00:00:56,565 Go to leading saints.org/fourteen and get access now. 24 00:01:01,325 --> 00:01:03,845 I would be rude if I didn't take the time to explain 25 00:01:03,845 --> 00:01:06,365 to the newer listeners what Leading Saints is. 26 00:01:06,715 --> 00:01:09,845 Here goes. Leading Saints is an organization that started 27 00:01:09,905 --> 00:01:11,805 as a hobby blog in 2010, 28 00:01:12,145 --> 00:01:14,965 and then really caught some traction in 2014 29 00:01:15,275 --> 00:01:16,445 when the podcast started. 30 00:01:16,785 --> 00:01:19,045 We talk about all things leadership in the context 31 00:01:19,185 --> 00:01:21,405 of the Church of Jesus Christ, of Latterday Saints. 32 00:01:21,625 --> 00:01:22,965 We aren't owned by the church, 33 00:01:22,985 --> 00:01:24,765 but we have a great relationship with them 34 00:01:24,785 --> 00:01:27,765 and always aimed to be faith promoting even though we talk 35 00:01:27,765 --> 00:01:28,805 about the tough topics. 36 00:01:29,305 --> 00:01:30,365 My name is Kurt Frankham. 37 00:01:30,465 --> 00:01:33,365 I'm generally the voice you hear as the host of the podcast. 38 00:01:34,035 --> 00:01:35,325 I've tried to get other hosts, 39 00:01:35,325 --> 00:01:38,765 but people demand my smooth tone and I really enjoy it. 40 00:01:39,055 --> 00:01:42,205 Check out leading saints.org to really get into the weeds of 41 00:01:42,205 --> 00:01:43,365 what Leading Saints is 42 00:01:43,425 --> 00:01:45,045 and learn all about our mission 43 00:01:45,105 --> 00:01:47,525 to help Latter Day Saints be better prepared to lead. 44 00:01:56,465 --> 00:01:57,965 You know, when I have a return guest 45 00:01:57,965 --> 00:01:59,805 that it's gonna be a phenomenal episode, 46 00:01:59,905 --> 00:02:03,805 and today I welcome back Thomas wlan McConkey, who is, uh, 47 00:02:03,825 --> 00:02:06,445 the author of a new book called At one Mint, 48 00:02:06,685 --> 00:02:08,885 embodying the Fullness of Human Divinity. 49 00:02:08,885 --> 00:02:11,925 And I always love my conversations with Thomas. 50 00:02:12,225 --> 00:02:15,365 Uh, we approach leadership in definitely a unique way. 51 00:02:15,545 --> 00:02:17,645 And I mean, really Thomas's faith and, 52 00:02:17,865 --> 00:02:20,245 and witness of the gospel is unique, uh, 53 00:02:20,245 --> 00:02:22,165 because it's not really how you hear it often 54 00:02:22,185 --> 00:02:24,365 or in a, in a sacra meeting or a Sunday school class, 55 00:02:24,505 --> 00:02:28,365 but it is so informative, it is so pure and enriching. 56 00:02:28,845 --> 00:02:32,565 I just love stepping into this mindfulness space with Thomas 57 00:02:32,745 --> 00:02:34,805 and exploring concepts of, of the gospel. 58 00:02:35,285 --> 00:02:36,285 I loved reading his book 59 00:02:36,305 --> 00:02:39,245 and it really got me thinking in a, in a new way about some 60 00:02:39,245 --> 00:02:42,685 of these concepts of love, light, heart, repentance. 61 00:02:42,985 --> 00:02:45,085 And it, I I recommend it for all leaders 62 00:02:45,225 --> 00:02:46,485 to check out and read. 63 00:02:46,545 --> 00:02:49,245 And especially for, you know, Thomas mentions this in the, 64 00:02:49,585 --> 00:02:51,285 our conversation is that, you know, 65 00:02:51,285 --> 00:02:54,325 that younger audience out there, the, the millennials and 66 00:02:54,325 --> 00:02:56,845 and younger, they may need a sort of a, 67 00:02:56,925 --> 00:02:59,285 a different voice as it comes to the gospel. 68 00:02:59,505 --> 00:03:01,805 The same gospel may be just articulated differently, 69 00:03:01,865 --> 00:03:03,885 and Thomas's work does such a remarkable 70 00:03:04,275 --> 00:03:05,845 service at providing that. 71 00:03:05,945 --> 00:03:08,605 And so maybe you can point into other individuals 72 00:03:08,605 --> 00:03:11,285 that you counsel with as leaders to some of Thomas's 73 00:03:11,965 --> 00:03:13,445 resources and, uh, I think they'll 74 00:03:13,445 --> 00:03:14,725 find, uh, enrichment there. 75 00:03:14,725 --> 00:03:17,445 They'll find a deeper thought, uh, deeper faith 76 00:03:17,625 --> 00:03:19,245 and encouragement in the gospel. 77 00:03:19,765 --> 00:03:22,325 I encourage you in this episode to definitely listen in 78 00:03:22,325 --> 00:03:25,005 for his story of going to general conference 79 00:03:25,025 --> 00:03:28,725 as a inactive young man and sitting and, 80 00:03:28,945 --> 00:03:29,965 and feeling the love 81 00:03:30,025 --> 00:03:33,485 and the long game love that he felt from his grandfather, 82 00:03:33,485 --> 00:03:37,165 who was an apostle, who had maybe every reason to be worried 83 00:03:37,185 --> 00:03:39,045 and anxious about his, his grandson 84 00:03:39,045 --> 00:03:40,725 that was maybe veering off the path, 85 00:03:40,725 --> 00:03:43,405 but how, uh, his love was one of many things 86 00:03:43,405 --> 00:03:45,725 that drew him back to the restored gospel 87 00:03:46,025 --> 00:03:48,445 and, uh, engaging with it in, in a different way. 88 00:03:48,585 --> 00:03:49,725 So you're gonna love this interview 89 00:03:49,755 --> 00:03:52,205 with Thomas Orland McConkey, and here it is. 90 00:04:03,525 --> 00:04:05,645 I am excited to welcome back Thomas McConkey 91 00:04:05,645 --> 00:04:07,645 to the Leading Saints Podcast. Thomas, how are you? 92 00:04:07,785 --> 00:04:08,965 - Hey, I'm good. Good to see you, 93 00:04:08,965 --> 00:04:10,005 Kurt. Thanks for having me here. 94 00:04:10,025 --> 00:04:12,325 - And you are back east now doing some, uh, 95 00:04:12,335 --> 00:04:13,805 doing some schooling. Yeah, 96 00:04:13,805 --> 00:04:14,805 - That's right. 97 00:04:14,805 --> 00:04:16,965 I've been in Massachusetts, Boston area 98 00:04:17,265 --> 00:04:18,445 for about a year and a half. 99 00:04:18,745 --> 00:04:21,325 I'm halfway through a three years master's degree, 100 00:04:21,465 --> 00:04:22,485 so it's That's fantastic. 101 00:04:22,485 --> 00:04:24,525 It's been really interesting. I'm looking into human 102 00:04:24,595 --> 00:04:27,485 development, spiritual flourishing, all the stuff 103 00:04:27,485 --> 00:04:29,165 that I think Latter Day Saints tend 104 00:04:29,165 --> 00:04:31,685 to be curious about and engaged in. Yeah. 105 00:04:32,065 --> 00:04:34,205 - In all your spare time, you've recently put a book 106 00:04:34,365 --> 00:04:35,685 together called At One Mint. 107 00:04:36,105 --> 00:04:38,925 Yes. The Embodying The Fullness of Human Divinity. 108 00:04:38,965 --> 00:04:40,605 I lost the subtitle there, . 109 00:04:40,605 --> 00:04:43,525 And this, this is sort of as a spinoff of your, 110 00:04:43,945 --> 00:04:46,085 was it Transformations of Faith series that you did? 111 00:04:46,085 --> 00:04:48,285 It was a video series, almost like a masterclass, right? 112 00:04:48,515 --> 00:04:50,085 - Yeah, that's right. Faith Matters. 113 00:04:50,305 --> 00:04:53,245 The foundation asked me to put together an online course, 114 00:04:53,425 --> 00:04:56,525 so, you know, video presentation that was pretty sizable. 115 00:04:56,525 --> 00:04:58,725 It was probably, I can't remember, it might have been 10 116 00:04:58,725 --> 00:05:02,485 to 12 hours of lecture or, you know, video. 117 00:05:02,625 --> 00:05:05,365 Mm-Hmm. . And later on Bill Turnbull said, 118 00:05:05,385 --> 00:05:07,405 you know, these transcripts read a lot like a book. 119 00:05:07,555 --> 00:05:09,685 What do you think about, you think he got a book in you? 120 00:05:09,705 --> 00:05:12,205 And I worked with it for a couple years, 121 00:05:12,465 --> 00:05:14,045 and at one that came out of it, 122 00:05:14,165 --> 00:05:17,165 I think took the video presentation in new directions, 123 00:05:17,185 --> 00:05:20,205 and I'm still exploring what it all means. Yeah. 124 00:05:20,315 --> 00:05:22,685 - Well, I think I'm so glad you put it in book form. 125 00:05:22,765 --> 00:05:25,485 I think this is the, your perspective, your experience. 126 00:05:25,675 --> 00:05:28,365 It's so insightful that I think it just needs to have sort 127 00:05:28,365 --> 00:05:32,085 of that immortality of the written word and, and j McConkey 128 00:05:32,085 --> 00:05:33,725 and McConkey write books, right? . 129 00:05:33,915 --> 00:05:35,085 - Yeah. We must, you know, 130 00:05:35,235 --> 00:05:37,205 they kick you outta the family if you don't publish 131 00:05:37,425 --> 00:05:39,725 by the time you're 35. I think 132 00:05:40,315 --> 00:05:41,315 - Nice. 133 00:05:41,315 --> 00:05:41,965 I love it. I love it. 134 00:05:42,225 --> 00:05:44,925 And I had to the privilege of, of reading the book, 135 00:05:45,185 --> 00:05:46,205 and, you know, I do a lot 136 00:05:46,205 --> 00:05:48,245 of reading on my exercise bike in the morning, 137 00:05:48,385 --> 00:05:49,485 and, uh, there's this moment 138 00:05:49,505 --> 00:05:52,205 and I usually put like, some instrumental music on, 139 00:05:52,205 --> 00:05:55,165 and sometimes the, the music is, you know, from a movie 140 00:05:55,465 --> 00:05:58,645 or other things, but getting into this book, I'm like, okay, 141 00:05:58,645 --> 00:05:59,685 this music is not working. 142 00:05:59,825 --> 00:06:02,845 And so I went over to like a, a spa meditative playlist. 143 00:06:03,105 --> 00:06:05,245 I'm like, yep, there it is. There it's, there it is. 144 00:06:05,565 --> 00:06:07,365 - . So Cool. Maybe you could share that 145 00:06:07,365 --> 00:06:09,485 with your listeners, the ideal soundtrack 146 00:06:09,545 --> 00:06:10,605 to read this book too. 147 00:06:11,125 --> 00:06:13,005 - . Yeah. Because I mean, you're obviously 148 00:06:13,005 --> 00:06:14,925 so thoughtful and meditative. 149 00:06:15,085 --> 00:06:16,725 I mean, obviously. 150 00:06:16,825 --> 00:06:18,685 And so just like, just sitting with some 151 00:06:18,685 --> 00:06:20,565 of these concepts I sort of needed, I needed 152 00:06:20,585 --> 00:06:22,885 to clear my mind of any other noise 153 00:06:22,885 --> 00:06:24,845 unless it was sort of more calming and, 154 00:06:24,905 --> 00:06:26,685 and, uh, focusing so Well, 155 00:06:26,765 --> 00:06:28,765 - I I'm happy to hear it had that effect on you. 156 00:06:28,885 --> 00:06:30,645 I, I hope it was edifying. So 157 00:06:30,885 --> 00:06:33,205 - I love the title, obviously, uh, you know, it's a, 158 00:06:33,245 --> 00:06:36,165 a playoff of atonement and we've heard this, I think any, 159 00:06:36,565 --> 00:06:38,605 - I heard this when I was, I heard this in Sunday 160 00:06:38,605 --> 00:06:39,845 school when I was seven. 161 00:06:39,915 --> 00:06:40,925 - Yeah. You break the word up. 162 00:06:41,075 --> 00:06:43,405 - Even at the time, I remember even when I heard it 163 00:06:43,405 --> 00:06:45,285 as a young kid, I'm like, wow, . 164 00:06:45,645 --> 00:06:46,645 I was blown away by that. 165 00:06:47,075 --> 00:06:48,485 - Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, 166 00:06:48,505 --> 00:06:51,765 and atonement is very much a latter day saint word, 167 00:06:51,825 --> 00:06:54,565 you know, I think if you said it to an evangelical 168 00:06:54,565 --> 00:06:56,485 or a Catholic, they sort of get what you're saying. 169 00:06:56,545 --> 00:06:57,965 But we've definitely sort 170 00:06:57,965 --> 00:07:00,885 of owned this word in our theology is, is that how you feel? 171 00:07:01,485 --> 00:07:03,765 - I feel a lot of ways. I don't know. Okay. Alright. 172 00:07:03,765 --> 00:07:04,765 Let hear it. , how much time you 173 00:07:04,765 --> 00:07:05,605 want me to spend on this? 174 00:07:05,925 --> 00:07:09,045 I mean, atonement, this is theological reflection 175 00:07:09,045 --> 00:07:12,605 that came many centuries after Christ's life. 176 00:07:12,625 --> 00:07:14,525 People, the early Christians 177 00:07:14,625 --> 00:07:17,645 and Jews didn't talk about atonement the way we do, 178 00:07:18,145 --> 00:07:19,285 but I don't think that should 179 00:07:19,285 --> 00:07:20,565 discourage us from talking about it. 180 00:07:20,565 --> 00:07:22,485 They didn't talk about golden plates either, right? 181 00:07:22,485 --> 00:07:24,205 Yeah, exactly. Or at least not the, uh, 182 00:07:24,405 --> 00:07:25,765 not the mainstream even at the time. 183 00:07:26,185 --> 00:07:29,245 So I don't think we should shy away from new words 184 00:07:29,265 --> 00:07:30,805 and innovations in the tradition. 185 00:07:30,825 --> 00:07:33,645 And for me, atonement is, it's where I take it in the book. 186 00:07:33,675 --> 00:07:37,525 It's a really powerful invitation to join ourselves fully 187 00:07:38,035 --> 00:07:39,925 with God and with the divine life. 188 00:07:40,355 --> 00:07:41,445 - Yeah. Yeah. - That's it. 189 00:07:41,625 --> 00:07:43,925 And that's, that's really been a north star 190 00:07:43,925 --> 00:07:45,325 for me in my life of faith. 191 00:07:45,475 --> 00:07:48,045 It's been, it's a very meaningful experience for me 192 00:07:48,225 --> 00:07:51,805 to notice when I feel at one with the divine 193 00:07:51,905 --> 00:07:55,045 and when I don't and when I don't, what can I do 194 00:07:55,155 --> 00:07:58,245 that would align myself more with the privilege 195 00:07:58,505 --> 00:07:59,885 of being a child of God? 196 00:08:00,145 --> 00:08:01,525 So it, it's very meaningful to me, 197 00:08:01,525 --> 00:08:03,645 and I hope it's meaningful for other people to explore. 198 00:08:04,035 --> 00:08:06,565 - Yeah. So, you know, I, whenever I, we chat 199 00:08:06,645 --> 00:08:09,565 and do interviews, I realize it's always a fool's errand 200 00:08:09,585 --> 00:08:11,685 for me to, to prepare a list of questions 201 00:08:11,685 --> 00:08:13,005 that I'm gonna go point by point 202 00:08:13,005 --> 00:08:14,685 with Thomas about all these questions, 203 00:08:14,685 --> 00:08:17,205 because we always find unique places to go. 204 00:08:17,225 --> 00:08:20,085 And, and your insights are always so intriguing. 205 00:08:20,265 --> 00:08:23,325 And so I just, I wanna maybe try this mental exercises. 206 00:08:23,345 --> 00:08:26,925 If you were walking into a room full of latterday, 207 00:08:26,925 --> 00:08:29,045 Saint Lay leaders, bishops, state presidents, 208 00:08:29,045 --> 00:08:30,285 relief society presidents, 209 00:08:30,665 --> 00:08:33,085 and the whole room is full, maybe a thousand of, 210 00:08:33,105 --> 00:08:35,405 of these leaders, and they're all looking at you like, 211 00:08:35,595 --> 00:08:37,925 just from your background, your perspective, like 212 00:08:38,155 --> 00:08:41,725 what message would you wanna start with as you, as you see 213 00:08:41,725 --> 00:08:43,085 that, that crowd of leaders? 214 00:08:43,675 --> 00:08:45,725 - Yeah, thanks for that question. 215 00:08:45,915 --> 00:08:47,765 It's, it's something I love about you 216 00:08:47,825 --> 00:08:49,245 and your body of work, just 217 00:08:49,245 --> 00:08:51,885 how focused it is on leadership in the church 218 00:08:51,885 --> 00:08:54,405 and what a difference a, a sensitive, 219 00:08:54,805 --> 00:08:56,645 inspired leader can make to all of us. 220 00:08:56,825 --> 00:08:58,845 And we're all leaders, right? Yeah. We're all in that role. 221 00:08:58,915 --> 00:09:01,245 Yeah. To an extent, room full of leaders. 222 00:09:01,685 --> 00:09:04,765 I come in, well, I would start with any 223 00:09:05,515 --> 00:09:08,965 variation on the theme of how do we really 224 00:09:09,515 --> 00:09:10,725 come back into the body, 225 00:09:11,195 --> 00:09:14,125 come back into our divine embodiment, 226 00:09:14,625 --> 00:09:16,845 and how do we start to 227 00:09:17,545 --> 00:09:22,485 notice when we're lost in our thoughts, lost in kind 228 00:09:22,485 --> 00:09:24,845 of daydreams and anywhere, 229 00:09:25,025 --> 00:09:26,605 but the fullness of what's right here? 230 00:09:26,985 --> 00:09:29,325 I'm gonna talk a little bit, but as, as you listen 231 00:09:29,465 --> 00:09:32,325 and as people listen to this conversation, 232 00:09:32,565 --> 00:09:34,685 I hope they'll start by doing something as simple 233 00:09:34,745 --> 00:09:36,085 as like, finding their feet. 234 00:09:36,275 --> 00:09:38,325 It's like when I tell you to find your feet, it's like, 235 00:09:38,325 --> 00:09:40,325 okay, I know where my feet, I can feel them now. 236 00:09:40,425 --> 00:09:42,165 And oh, it's, it's kind of warm 237 00:09:42,185 --> 00:09:44,565 and tingly when I bring my awareness to my feet 238 00:09:44,585 --> 00:09:46,285 and I can, can feel my feet on the ground 239 00:09:46,345 --> 00:09:48,445 and I'm, whether I'm sitting or walking 240 00:09:48,585 --> 00:09:50,565 or whatever, you know, I feel the sense 241 00:09:50,565 --> 00:09:52,005 of being supported by the ground. 242 00:09:52,145 --> 00:09:54,685 And oh, then I can relax in my body a little bit. 243 00:09:54,825 --> 00:09:57,845 And, oh, when my body's relaxed, my heart starts to soften. 244 00:09:57,965 --> 00:10:01,045 I can kind of open my heart a little bit when my body's 245 00:10:01,045 --> 00:10:04,165 relaxed, when my heart is open, my mind is lucid. 246 00:10:04,235 --> 00:10:06,645 It's, it's even more alert than it was a few moments ago, 247 00:10:06,645 --> 00:10:08,285 but it might be more silent. 248 00:10:08,795 --> 00:10:10,285 What I hear from a lot of students, 249 00:10:10,715 --> 00:10:13,645 because I teach a lot of, I teach this, you know, 250 00:10:13,815 --> 00:10:16,325 human development, contemplation for a living. 251 00:10:16,755 --> 00:10:19,165 What I hear from students is the more they're just present 252 00:10:19,465 --> 00:10:20,685 in and through their body, 253 00:10:20,695 --> 00:10:22,805 their divine vessel in their heart, 254 00:10:23,145 --> 00:10:26,205 the mind becomes more sharp, becomes more keen, 255 00:10:26,265 --> 00:10:27,805 but it also becomes more silent. 256 00:10:28,185 --> 00:10:29,805 And when the mind needs to boot up 257 00:10:29,945 --> 00:10:33,085 and be brilliant, well, that's what minds are good for. 258 00:10:33,585 --> 00:10:37,085 But we can learn to feel and think 259 00:10:37,585 --> 00:10:39,845 and know more through all of our faculties. 260 00:10:40,185 --> 00:10:42,445 And I think we're at a great advantage living in the 261 00:10:42,445 --> 00:10:44,445 fullness of times, and we're at a great disadvantage. 262 00:10:44,665 --> 00:10:47,205 The disadvantage is that someone 263 00:10:47,305 --> 00:10:50,005 or something is almost always trying to capture attention 264 00:10:50,425 --> 00:10:51,805 and get us to think about something 265 00:10:51,805 --> 00:10:52,885 and get us to do something. 266 00:10:53,395 --> 00:10:56,365 It's much less common in my experience, to be invited 267 00:10:56,505 --> 00:10:59,605 to like, just take a slow breath and to ground 268 00:11:00,225 --> 00:11:03,485 and to be still and know that God is God. 269 00:11:04,105 --> 00:11:08,765 So a lot of my adventure, my exploration 270 00:11:08,825 --> 00:11:12,285 and the gospel has been in that territory 271 00:11:12,665 --> 00:11:15,405 of really coming to know stillness at a deep level. 272 00:11:15,825 --> 00:11:18,005 And I've found that as I come to know stillness, 273 00:11:18,065 --> 00:11:19,925 my body feels more vibrant and alive. 274 00:11:20,305 --> 00:11:22,805 My heart feels more open and compassionate, 275 00:11:23,105 --> 00:11:26,605 and my mind works better when my mind is working. 276 00:11:26,715 --> 00:11:28,245 It's working better than it's ever worked. 277 00:11:28,265 --> 00:11:30,405 And when it's not working, it's, it's resting 278 00:11:30,405 --> 00:11:32,925 and it's getting ready to work when it's, when it needs to. 279 00:11:33,385 --> 00:11:36,165 So I would say to a coming back full circle to a room full 280 00:11:36,165 --> 00:11:38,005 of leaders, I would say that, you know, 281 00:11:38,005 --> 00:11:41,605 I'm serious about the subtitle of the book that the fullness 282 00:11:41,905 --> 00:11:43,205 to embody the fullness 283 00:11:43,205 --> 00:11:46,845 of our divinity is not even just a lifelong practice, 284 00:11:46,985 --> 00:11:51,205 but it's a, I believe it's something we'll be doing into the 285 00:11:51,475 --> 00:11:53,525 eons as divine beings. 286 00:11:53,905 --> 00:11:55,245 So why not start right now 287 00:11:55,625 --> 00:11:59,925 and like, really draw from the wisdom, the intelligence 288 00:11:59,925 --> 00:12:02,325 and divinity of the body and the heart, 289 00:12:03,025 --> 00:12:04,845 and not just make the mind the 290 00:12:04,845 --> 00:12:06,125 thinking mind of all the heavy lifting. 291 00:12:06,545 --> 00:12:08,165 So that's a big theme in the book. Yeah, yeah. 292 00:12:08,345 --> 00:12:10,485 - You know, that concept of fullness is really intriguing. 293 00:12:10,555 --> 00:12:11,645 It's in the subtitle, right? 294 00:12:11,885 --> 00:12:14,845 Embodying the fullness of human divinity. Right. 295 00:12:14,865 --> 00:12:16,405 And, you know, I just, as I step back 296 00:12:16,405 --> 00:12:20,525 and just observe the, the theology that we have, 297 00:12:20,585 --> 00:12:22,685 and even, you know, the pinnacle of that theology being, 298 00:12:22,685 --> 00:12:25,885 the temple experience of being endowed from on high, 299 00:12:26,155 --> 00:12:28,525 from a divine being given identity. 300 00:12:29,165 --> 00:12:31,845 I mean, I mean, talk about fullness, like right. 301 00:12:31,985 --> 00:12:34,445 Not only do we, we may assume walking into that building 302 00:12:34,445 --> 00:12:36,365 that we're, that we're in a state of fullness, 303 00:12:36,385 --> 00:12:38,645 but then he'll say, oh, there's so much more space 304 00:12:38,745 --> 00:12:39,845 to make it more full. 305 00:12:40,025 --> 00:12:43,085 And it's a remarkable to, to just realize this, 306 00:12:43,115 --> 00:12:44,965 this is a theology of fullness, and, 307 00:12:44,965 --> 00:12:47,205 and God is offering us fullness. Right. Yeah. 308 00:12:47,205 --> 00:12:49,165 - Thank you. Amazing. Absolutely. 309 00:12:49,745 --> 00:12:51,325 And as you say that it occurs to me, 310 00:12:51,385 --> 00:12:52,885 we could do like just a little, 311 00:12:53,155 --> 00:12:55,125 like play a quick game kind of. 312 00:12:55,125 --> 00:12:59,005 Okay. And by game, I mean this book, I'm not pronouncing 313 00:12:59,845 --> 00:13:01,645 doctrines per se, that's not my intention in the book. 314 00:13:01,645 --> 00:13:04,565 It's not my business or my mantle my calling to do that. 315 00:13:04,865 --> 00:13:06,445 Mm-Hmm. . But I'm inviting people 316 00:13:06,445 --> 00:13:07,965 to pay attention in a new way 317 00:13:08,425 --> 00:13:09,725 and to just see 318 00:13:10,155 --> 00:13:13,605 what divine realities reveal themselves when we 319 00:13:13,605 --> 00:13:14,765 pay attention in a new way. 320 00:13:14,835 --> 00:13:18,245 Yeah. That's it. So as a game, I would invite you to, just 321 00:13:18,245 --> 00:13:22,885 for a moment, anyone listening to just call to mind, call 322 00:13:22,905 --> 00:13:25,605 to heart, call to presence, somebody 323 00:13:25,605 --> 00:13:26,885 that you love very deeply. 324 00:13:27,265 --> 00:13:28,445 It can be more than one person, 325 00:13:28,585 --> 00:13:30,645 but one person helps us focus a little bit. 326 00:13:30,675 --> 00:13:33,485 Just any person. It can be a pet too. 327 00:13:33,485 --> 00:13:36,925 If it's a dog, an animal, just give yourself a moment 328 00:13:36,945 --> 00:13:39,885 to really call this, this being to presence 329 00:13:40,545 --> 00:13:44,285 and feel how unique your bond is with this being. 330 00:13:44,755 --> 00:13:47,805 It's one of a kind. There's no relationship like it in the 331 00:13:47,805 --> 00:13:49,365 whole created universe. 332 00:13:49,945 --> 00:13:51,245 And in the uniqueness of this 333 00:13:51,245 --> 00:13:52,725 relationship, feel how much you love them. 334 00:13:52,835 --> 00:13:56,965 Just like no holding back. All the love you have is theirs. 335 00:13:57,315 --> 00:13:59,605 It's everything you, every good thing you have to give 336 00:13:59,605 --> 00:14:01,205 to them is forthcoming. 337 00:14:01,705 --> 00:14:04,205 And just feel how big, feel how immense that love is 338 00:14:04,205 --> 00:14:05,285 that you have for this being. 339 00:14:05,985 --> 00:14:09,245 And then as if it were coming from behind you 340 00:14:09,345 --> 00:14:13,965 as a support feel, the unsearchable, the infinite love 341 00:14:13,965 --> 00:14:16,045 of God that's actually moving 342 00:14:16,045 --> 00:14:19,125 through your unique vessel to love this being. 343 00:14:20,025 --> 00:14:23,685 In other words, it is by God's love that we love. 344 00:14:24,145 --> 00:14:26,525 And is there any boundary to that? 345 00:14:26,745 --> 00:14:28,085 Can we find the boundaries 346 00:14:28,105 --> 00:14:30,685 or the limits of God's immensity and love? 347 00:14:31,065 --> 00:14:34,365 And so for a moment to just open ourselves to the immensity 348 00:14:34,365 --> 00:14:37,245 of love, that my experiences, 349 00:14:37,795 --> 00:14:39,365 it's pouring through us right now. 350 00:14:40,065 --> 00:14:44,405 And in our unique way, we're offering this love to everyone 351 00:14:44,405 --> 00:14:47,565 and everything that we love and serve and take care of. 352 00:14:48,305 --> 00:14:52,165 And in just that little exercise, you start to get a taste. 353 00:14:52,485 --> 00:14:56,125 I start to get a taste of how full fullness is. Fullness is. 354 00:14:56,275 --> 00:14:58,085 It's bigger than I can say. Yeah. 355 00:14:58,195 --> 00:14:59,485 It's bigger than I can think. 356 00:15:00,025 --> 00:15:02,525 And I find it's an appropriate place. 357 00:15:02,755 --> 00:15:06,805 Many people find it a natural place to deepen their faith 358 00:15:07,385 --> 00:15:10,645 and their inquiry into the gospel from this 359 00:15:10,645 --> 00:15:11,725 place, not from a place. 360 00:15:12,035 --> 00:15:14,605 Some people orient to ideas more and theologies 361 00:15:14,745 --> 00:15:15,965 and doctrines, and that's great. 362 00:15:16,145 --> 00:15:17,805 And others like myself, maybe it's 363 00:15:17,845 --> 00:15:19,965 'cause I'm left-handed, who knows? like, 364 00:15:20,105 --> 00:15:21,645 - Hey, me too. So there we go. Hey, 365 00:15:21,645 --> 00:15:22,645 - There you go. 366 00:15:22,645 --> 00:15:23,965 So two lefties, but you know, we're all wired differently. 367 00:15:23,965 --> 00:15:27,565 And I find like, I actually quite like, like the intuitive 368 00:15:28,115 --> 00:15:29,805 open space of Yeah. 369 00:15:30,105 --> 00:15:32,285 You know, the, the exploration of sacred beauty, 370 00:15:32,415 --> 00:15:34,645 which I feel when I slow down a little bit. 371 00:15:34,955 --> 00:15:37,325 - Yeah. You know, just like the thoughts that come 372 00:15:37,325 --> 00:15:39,565 to my mind just going through that exercise is that, 373 00:15:39,565 --> 00:15:41,525 like you said earlier, like there's this moment 374 00:15:41,525 --> 00:15:43,765 where like when we show up in life in diff different 375 00:15:43,765 --> 00:15:46,205 contexts, even in leadership context, we sort of, 376 00:15:46,225 --> 00:15:47,405 we turn on our brain, right? 377 00:15:47,475 --> 00:15:49,685 It's like, let's make sure we get a good breakfast 378 00:15:49,865 --> 00:15:52,525 and we're gonna fire our brain up on all cylinders. 379 00:15:52,535 --> 00:15:53,925 We're gonna handle problems 380 00:15:54,065 --> 00:15:55,645 and answer questions and do these things. 381 00:15:55,985 --> 00:15:57,285 But just going through that, and it's almost 382 00:15:57,285 --> 00:15:58,605 that grounding experience. 383 00:15:58,795 --> 00:16:01,085 It's almost like you, instead of turning on your brain, 384 00:16:01,465 --> 00:16:03,445 you turn on like that divine identity. 385 00:16:03,835 --> 00:16:06,405 Yeah. And it is, it's, you know, the fullness is, 386 00:16:06,425 --> 00:16:08,605 is such a great word because it's, it feels, 387 00:16:08,715 --> 00:16:09,725 it's not just my brain 388 00:16:09,725 --> 00:16:12,325 and my cognitive, you know, function that's happening, 389 00:16:12,385 --> 00:16:14,325 but it's my spirit, you know, it's 390 00:16:14,925 --> 00:16:17,165 suddenly God's light has opportunity to, to come 391 00:16:17,165 --> 00:16:18,245 through me and, and in. 392 00:16:18,305 --> 00:16:19,605 So it's very, it's, I mean, 393 00:16:19,605 --> 00:16:21,725 fullness is a great way to perceive it. Yeah. 394 00:16:21,725 --> 00:16:22,845 - Thanks for articulating that. 395 00:16:23,285 --> 00:16:26,365 I, as you speak, I get the image of a fire, you know? Yeah. 396 00:16:26,365 --> 00:16:29,245 If you've ever built a fire camping in the woods, 397 00:16:29,305 --> 00:16:31,925 in your backyard, wherever, you figure out pretty quickly, 398 00:16:32,385 --> 00:16:34,765 you need to find the balance between how much flame 399 00:16:34,825 --> 00:16:36,365 and how much wood, how much fuel. 400 00:16:36,785 --> 00:16:38,445 And you can quickly choke off a fire 401 00:16:38,505 --> 00:16:41,125 by throwing like too big a log too soon onto it. 402 00:16:41,465 --> 00:16:43,805 And I think many of us in this day 403 00:16:43,805 --> 00:16:47,965 and age have that relationship to the spirit, to 404 00:16:48,495 --> 00:16:51,765 God's immensity of love with our thinking about it. 405 00:16:51,995 --> 00:16:53,085 It's like, we feel some love 406 00:16:53,085 --> 00:16:54,365 and boom, we start to think about it. 407 00:16:54,525 --> 00:16:55,805 'cause it, oh wow, this gives me 408 00:16:55,805 --> 00:16:56,885 so many ideas about so many things. 409 00:16:56,945 --> 00:16:59,605 And when I'm sitting, when I'm counseling with somebody 410 00:16:59,605 --> 00:17:01,205 that I, let's say I'm their leader 411 00:17:01,505 --> 00:17:04,045 and they look to me in my leadership position, 412 00:17:04,595 --> 00:17:07,645 it's a real discipline to like, let those flames 413 00:17:07,665 --> 00:17:10,845 of love really grow and become vivid 414 00:17:10,865 --> 00:17:13,525 before we throw just like a twig on just to like, 415 00:17:13,525 --> 00:17:15,045 give it a little, little kindling. 416 00:17:15,095 --> 00:17:18,485 Right? Yeah. So in, in general, most people I meet say like, 417 00:17:18,505 --> 00:17:20,005 oh, I think too much. 418 00:17:20,205 --> 00:17:23,205 I didn't realize that. I think a thousand percent more than 419 00:17:23,245 --> 00:17:25,005 I actually need to, than is useful. 420 00:17:25,505 --> 00:17:27,125 And a lot of the book is just hope. 421 00:17:27,635 --> 00:17:30,885 It's to draw from scripture, from revealed doctrine, 422 00:17:31,265 --> 00:17:33,085 the ways in which we're encouraged in the gospel 423 00:17:33,185 --> 00:17:34,925 to embody our fullness. Yeah. 424 00:17:35,305 --> 00:17:37,445 - So I want to sort of pause and, 425 00:17:37,605 --> 00:17:40,085 and just consider maybe the type of people 426 00:17:40,115 --> 00:17:41,445 that are listening to this, uh, yeah. 427 00:17:41,445 --> 00:17:43,045 You know, in the leadership audience there we are in 428 00:17:43,045 --> 00:17:45,165 that room full of leaders and somebody raises their hand 429 00:17:45,165 --> 00:17:46,285 and says, all right, Kurt 430 00:17:46,385 --> 00:17:47,405 Tom was like, what are we doing here? 431 00:17:47,475 --> 00:17:48,805 Like this, come on. 432 00:17:48,995 --> 00:17:50,765 Like, this sounds a little bit too woo woo. 433 00:17:50,965 --> 00:17:52,685 I mean Yeah, yeah, mindfulness. Sure. 434 00:17:52,745 --> 00:17:54,605 But like, at the end of the day, like, we got the gospel, 435 00:17:54,745 --> 00:17:56,645 we got the things like, what are we doing here? 436 00:17:56,675 --> 00:17:57,965 Like, what's the point of all this? 437 00:17:57,985 --> 00:18:01,245 It just sound, I get lost in all the terms and right things. 438 00:18:01,305 --> 00:18:02,645 So I mean, how would you respond to that? 439 00:18:02,645 --> 00:18:03,685 And I'm just sort of considering 440 00:18:03,685 --> 00:18:05,365 that the potential audience that's out there, 441 00:18:05,835 --> 00:18:08,765 - It's so happens that I get this question all the time 442 00:18:08,875 --> 00:18:09,885 from different people. 443 00:18:09,905 --> 00:18:11,765 Oh, cool. Think about, I'm, 444 00:18:12,025 --> 00:18:14,085 I'm in an image based mood today, apparently. 445 00:18:14,245 --> 00:18:15,765 'cause I keep seeing images as you're 446 00:18:15,765 --> 00:18:16,885 talking, so I'll just trust it. 447 00:18:17,025 --> 00:18:20,205 But, um, nice. I think about my grandparents 448 00:18:20,505 --> 00:18:21,885 who spent a whole lifetime together 449 00:18:21,905 --> 00:18:24,205 and just how deeply they loved each other. 450 00:18:24,705 --> 00:18:26,125 - And you have pictures of them behind you, 451 00:18:26,135 --> 00:18:27,605 isn't it? They're a little small 452 00:18:27,605 --> 00:18:28,605 - On my screen. 453 00:18:28,605 --> 00:18:29,405 It's those, I do have pictures 454 00:18:29,425 --> 00:18:31,125 of my grandparents hanging over my 455 00:18:31,125 --> 00:18:32,165 head, just, you know, that's great. 456 00:18:32,165 --> 00:18:36,405 Inspiring me. And their love was very quiet, right? 457 00:18:36,475 --> 00:18:39,005 Like, when they had all the grandchildren over 458 00:18:39,585 --> 00:18:42,125 for a Sunday dinner or when I just like kind 459 00:18:42,125 --> 00:18:44,885 of caught a glimpse of 'em just together 460 00:18:45,545 --> 00:18:48,405 off in a corner somewhere in the house, the love 461 00:18:48,595 --> 00:18:49,765 that flowed between them. 462 00:18:50,265 --> 00:18:52,325 It was very silent. It's as if, it's as if 463 00:18:52,325 --> 00:18:54,805 after 50 years of marriage, you don't need a ton 464 00:18:54,805 --> 00:18:57,085 of commentary on like, are you feeling this right now? 465 00:18:57,105 --> 00:18:59,085 Are you feeling what I'm saying? They just know it. 466 00:18:59,235 --> 00:19:00,725 They embody the same space. 467 00:19:00,845 --> 00:19:02,005 'cause they love is so deep, 468 00:19:02,005 --> 00:19:04,165 they've become one in their union. 469 00:19:04,985 --> 00:19:07,885 So, you know, to the, to the person in the crowd 470 00:19:07,885 --> 00:19:09,045 who says, what are we doing here? 471 00:19:09,325 --> 00:19:11,885 I would say we're allowing love to do love's work, 472 00:19:12,105 --> 00:19:15,565 to actually open our hearts and deepen us in my life. 473 00:19:15,665 --> 00:19:19,405 The most powerful gospel teachings have not come in the 474 00:19:19,635 --> 00:19:22,845 eloquence of what the person is saying. 475 00:19:23,755 --> 00:19:25,805 It's come from an intuition I have, like 476 00:19:25,855 --> 00:19:29,205 where they're saying that from the place, 477 00:19:29,395 --> 00:19:30,965 from their divine being, 478 00:19:31,985 --> 00:19:34,605 the place those words are coming from is what's moving me. 479 00:19:34,605 --> 00:19:36,845 And the words are just helping me notice that better. 480 00:19:37,585 --> 00:19:42,005 But I, I would suggest the more intimate we can become 481 00:19:42,005 --> 00:19:43,645 with this love 482 00:19:44,585 --> 00:19:46,485 and this quality of silence, the, 483 00:19:46,665 --> 00:19:48,965 the more force our testimony our 484 00:19:48,965 --> 00:19:50,325 witness has for other people. 485 00:19:50,945 --> 00:19:52,165 That's been my experience. 486 00:19:52,385 --> 00:19:54,085 You know, that's been a moving experience for me 487 00:19:54,085 --> 00:19:55,805 that I, I like to share with others. 488 00:19:56,155 --> 00:19:57,845 Yeah. Of course. We can use our words. Right. 489 00:19:57,905 --> 00:20:00,165 And of course, sometimes, you know, in a room of a thousand, 490 00:20:00,405 --> 00:20:01,485 a hundred of them are gonna be like, 491 00:20:01,765 --> 00:20:03,205 I still think I'm in the wrong room. 492 00:20:03,625 --> 00:20:06,925 You know, I, I dislike you a little bit less than I did 10 493 00:20:06,925 --> 00:20:08,325 minutes ago, but I'm still in the wrong room. 494 00:20:08,325 --> 00:20:10,125 That's fine. You know, it's not, yeah. 495 00:20:10,425 --> 00:20:12,045 You know, we all have our own approaches. 496 00:20:12,075 --> 00:20:15,085 It's, this is not supposed to be some universal new approach 497 00:20:15,265 --> 00:20:18,805 to just like the, the wisdom of the gospel. Right? 498 00:20:18,995 --> 00:20:21,365 - Yeah. You know, when you say allowing love 499 00:20:21,365 --> 00:20:23,725 to do love's work, like, so profound. 500 00:20:23,725 --> 00:20:25,725 And, and really, you know, we, we know 501 00:20:26,345 --> 00:20:28,685 we can encapsulate the concept of, 502 00:20:28,745 --> 00:20:30,245 of love in doctrine, right? 503 00:20:30,245 --> 00:20:31,565 We know the doctrine of love, the power 504 00:20:31,565 --> 00:20:33,405 of love love's all over in the scriptures. 505 00:20:33,985 --> 00:20:35,445 And so many times as leaders, 506 00:20:35,505 --> 00:20:36,965 we think, I gotta love my people. 507 00:20:37,045 --> 00:20:37,965 I mean, that's something we hear a 508 00:20:37,965 --> 00:20:39,085 lot on the Leading Saints podcast. 509 00:20:39,155 --> 00:20:40,485 When I ask people, how do you lead? 510 00:20:40,485 --> 00:20:42,725 And they always say, just love the people, right. 511 00:20:42,725 --> 00:20:45,085 In the song. Yeah. But that seems so fleeting. 512 00:20:45,085 --> 00:20:48,005 Like, okay, what, like, like you hug them a lot, or 513 00:20:48,185 --> 00:20:49,185 - You like Exactly. 514 00:20:49,185 --> 00:20:51,045 - What do you, and oftentimes leaders will default 515 00:20:51,045 --> 00:20:53,685 to this cadence of, well, no, I stand up in front 516 00:20:53,685 --> 00:20:56,045 of relief society and say, I just love you. 517 00:20:56,095 --> 00:20:58,885 Right. But I think what you're illustrating is just this 518 00:20:58,885 --> 00:21:01,125 process of like, no, actually this is like this 519 00:21:01,125 --> 00:21:02,445 grounding experience. 520 00:21:02,995 --> 00:21:04,605 Then, then, then love does the work. 521 00:21:04,675 --> 00:21:06,685 It's not you articulating the words 522 00:21:06,685 --> 00:21:08,205 that Yeah. That does the work. 523 00:21:08,515 --> 00:21:09,725 - Yeah. No, thank you for that. 524 00:21:09,825 --> 00:21:12,005 Um, I, I explore this a lot in the book, 525 00:21:12,635 --> 00:21:14,925 what gets in the way of love, you could say. 526 00:21:15,505 --> 00:21:17,485 And what I find, like, yes, 527 00:21:17,555 --> 00:21:18,845 I've heard that response a lot too. 528 00:21:18,845 --> 00:21:20,245 Just love the people and tell me love them. 529 00:21:20,245 --> 00:21:24,325 But like, we also all have the experience when someone says, 530 00:21:24,365 --> 00:21:27,285 I love you, and it kind of registers a little shallow, like, 531 00:21:27,285 --> 00:21:29,565 oh, you're saying that 'cause I know you love me. 532 00:21:29,665 --> 00:21:31,605 I'm, you're not lying, but I'm not feeling it. 533 00:21:31,605 --> 00:21:34,005 It's not like bringing me to tears right now. Right, right. 534 00:21:34,035 --> 00:21:36,725 Yeah. And I think the difference is like when people 535 00:21:37,305 --> 00:21:39,845 are willing to be very vulnerable 536 00:21:39,875 --> 00:21:42,725 with themselves at the deepest level, when they're willing 537 00:21:42,745 --> 00:21:45,765 to lay themselves bare to divine love 538 00:21:46,305 --> 00:21:47,605 and to let that move through them. 539 00:21:47,835 --> 00:21:49,125 Because when we do that, 540 00:21:49,345 --> 00:21:50,885 we don't get to control the message. 541 00:21:51,385 --> 00:21:53,405 We don't get to dictate what we say 542 00:21:53,425 --> 00:21:54,725 or who we even say it to. 543 00:21:54,895 --> 00:21:57,965 Right. Love, love recruits us to do its work. 544 00:21:58,665 --> 00:22:00,965 So it's a very vulnerable thing. 545 00:22:01,315 --> 00:22:04,485 It's actually what I explore in the book is it's a very 546 00:22:04,595 --> 00:22:07,325 intense and vulnerable experience in the body 547 00:22:07,825 --> 00:22:11,005 to let ourselves be moved more by divine light and love. 548 00:22:11,025 --> 00:22:14,045 And certainly, I'm, I guess by some standards, 549 00:22:14,145 --> 00:22:15,525 I'm young by some, I'm old. 550 00:22:15,545 --> 00:22:17,605 But at my ripe age of 43, I'm, 551 00:22:17,725 --> 00:22:20,285 I look back on my life now and I think, wow. 552 00:22:20,475 --> 00:22:22,645 Like, I had no idea 553 00:22:22,945 --> 00:22:25,485 how defended against God's love. 554 00:22:25,565 --> 00:22:28,525 I was like, I thought I was doing the loving work, 555 00:22:28,625 --> 00:22:32,325 and I see all the ways I kind of tried to keep myself safe 556 00:22:32,545 --> 00:22:34,085 and control the message. 557 00:22:34,705 --> 00:22:38,205 So this is a path of infinite exploration, 558 00:22:38,765 --> 00:22:40,445 I think will never be done with it. 559 00:22:40,915 --> 00:22:43,925 - Yeah. You know, where my mind goes is I'm just thinking 560 00:22:43,925 --> 00:22:44,925 of the leader who's like, 561 00:22:45,045 --> 00:22:46,845 I love who's listening to this thinking. 562 00:22:46,885 --> 00:22:48,485 I love everything that Thomas just said there. 563 00:22:48,625 --> 00:22:50,485 And I mean, this afternoon 564 00:22:50,585 --> 00:22:52,645 or this evening at seven o'clock, I got, 565 00:22:53,205 --> 00:22:54,925 I got an appointment with Sister Jones. 566 00:22:55,185 --> 00:22:57,845 And I don't know, like, I want her to feel that. 567 00:22:58,115 --> 00:22:59,445 Like, is there any like a, 568 00:22:59,485 --> 00:23:01,205 a crash course you can give us on just like, 569 00:23:01,845 --> 00:23:03,925 approaching these relationships, 570 00:23:04,275 --> 00:23:08,245 sometimes leadership relationships with that love or Yeah. 571 00:23:08,245 --> 00:23:09,805 Making space for it, what comes to mind? 572 00:23:10,485 --> 00:23:13,815 - Totally. Well, like, um, a number of 573 00:23:15,255 --> 00:23:18,415 examples of vulnerability that I avoid, 574 00:23:18,595 --> 00:23:20,815 and I've learned from experience doing this work 575 00:23:20,815 --> 00:23:24,855 that other people avoid going 5% slower. 576 00:23:25,825 --> 00:23:27,375 Right. Just it, what is it? 577 00:23:27,595 --> 00:23:29,375 Why should it be vulnerable for me 578 00:23:29,375 --> 00:23:30,735 to slow down and say less? 579 00:23:31,575 --> 00:23:32,655 I don't know why, but it is, 580 00:23:33,455 --> 00:23:36,615 whenever I go slower, it's as if like, 581 00:23:37,175 --> 00:23:38,935 whatever we were trying to protect 582 00:23:39,115 --> 00:23:40,535 and defend by going faster 583 00:23:40,595 --> 00:23:43,505 and having all the right things to say it, they come 584 00:23:43,505 --> 00:23:44,985 to the surfaces, it's exposed. 585 00:23:45,465 --> 00:23:48,485 Do you notice, like, this is a random example, 586 00:23:48,585 --> 00:23:50,365 but directly related to your question. 587 00:23:50,525 --> 00:23:53,685 I think when someone says a prayer to, 588 00:23:53,695 --> 00:23:55,645 let's say close the sacrament meeting, 589 00:23:56,345 --> 00:23:58,765 and we all do this, it's not a kind of person, 590 00:23:58,795 --> 00:23:59,925 it's something that we all do. 591 00:23:59,925 --> 00:24:02,125 There are moments when like, we're willing 592 00:24:02,145 --> 00:24:04,925 to be more vulnerable, vulnerable and undefended. 593 00:24:05,425 --> 00:24:07,005 We run out things to say, 594 00:24:07,585 --> 00:24:09,445 but we have enough faith to just pause. 595 00:24:10,115 --> 00:24:11,725 It's like, I don't know what I'm gonna say next. 596 00:24:12,105 --> 00:24:13,765 And I'm in front, I'm at the pulpit. 597 00:24:13,765 --> 00:24:16,325 All these people are listening, I wanna sound good. Right. 598 00:24:16,545 --> 00:24:19,005 We get nervous. So, you know, there's a choice point there. 599 00:24:19,105 --> 00:24:20,765 We either keep talking and, you know, 600 00:24:21,355 --> 00:24:24,445 pray we rattle off some cliche just to break the silence. 601 00:24:24,595 --> 00:24:25,965 Yeah. Or in our better moments, 602 00:24:26,325 --> 00:24:28,005 I think we like realize like, oh, 603 00:24:28,005 --> 00:24:29,765 there's something powerful here. 604 00:24:29,765 --> 00:24:31,285 And I, I don't have words for it, 605 00:24:31,505 --> 00:24:33,445 but I'm gonna just give it an extra beat 606 00:24:33,865 --> 00:24:35,125 and see what comes through me. 607 00:24:35,185 --> 00:24:36,245 It, it's as simple as that. 608 00:24:36,245 --> 00:24:37,365 Like just slowing down 609 00:24:38,265 --> 00:24:41,245 and like letting silence make us a little nervous 610 00:24:41,705 --> 00:24:43,605 and uncomfortable and taking a breath. 611 00:24:44,225 --> 00:24:45,925 And maybe with, what was the sister you 612 00:24:45,925 --> 00:24:47,005 named? Sister, sister 613 00:24:47,055 --> 00:24:48,055 - Jones. 614 00:24:48,055 --> 00:24:50,005 - Sister Jones. How did I forget? Was Sister Jones? 615 00:24:50,005 --> 00:24:51,365 Even naming a moment of like, 616 00:24:51,705 --> 00:24:53,005 you know, I'm a little nervous right now. 617 00:24:53,005 --> 00:24:55,525 I don't even know what to say, but I want to say something 618 00:24:55,525 --> 00:24:56,805 that's true and honest. 619 00:24:57,425 --> 00:24:59,445 So instead of just saying something, 620 00:24:59,905 --> 00:25:01,965 I'm gonna just wait if that's okay. 621 00:25:02,475 --> 00:25:04,285 Something like that. And it, yeah. 622 00:25:04,475 --> 00:25:07,245 Anytime any gospel teacher has done that for me, 623 00:25:07,245 --> 00:25:09,165 and there have been many and they've changed my life, 624 00:25:09,955 --> 00:25:12,525 it's like the whole conversation, the whole room kind 625 00:25:12,525 --> 00:25:15,765 of goes chunk and it drops down to this deeper space 626 00:25:15,765 --> 00:25:16,845 of like, oh wow. 627 00:25:17,395 --> 00:25:21,245 Like, I feel like the quality of presence in this room 628 00:25:21,245 --> 00:25:23,085 between us just changed entirely 629 00:25:23,085 --> 00:25:25,205 because we took a risk to be a little bit more 630 00:25:25,835 --> 00:25:27,165 open towards one another. 631 00:25:27,285 --> 00:25:28,285 A little less offended. 632 00:25:28,915 --> 00:25:30,125 - Yeah. That's really helpful. Just 633 00:25:30,125 --> 00:25:31,725 that slowing down 5% more 634 00:25:32,145 --> 00:25:33,965 and that can, can show up in, in many ways 635 00:25:33,965 --> 00:25:35,605 where you can reach for that in different ways 636 00:25:35,625 --> 00:25:38,445 of even I remember as a bishop, I, for whatever reason, 637 00:25:38,925 --> 00:25:41,965 I would set up my appointments at, at 30 minute increments. 638 00:25:41,965 --> 00:25:43,205 Right. And not, 639 00:25:43,205 --> 00:25:46,485 because, you know, usually that's just how long it takes. 640 00:25:46,585 --> 00:25:49,365 But, but sometimes there's this pressure of like, I have 641 00:25:49,365 --> 00:25:51,365 to take this person to the top of Mount Sinai and back down 642 00:25:51,385 --> 00:25:52,805 and solve their problem and read 643 00:25:52,805 --> 00:25:54,085 the scripture and do all these things. 644 00:25:54,465 --> 00:25:56,685 But even to just say, maybe I'm gonna space 645 00:25:56,685 --> 00:25:58,085 that out a little bit more and then, 646 00:25:58,185 --> 00:26:01,525 and then that'll gimme a little more confidence in slowing 647 00:26:01,525 --> 00:26:02,525 down 5% more. 648 00:26:02,525 --> 00:26:05,165 Right. So, but yeah. Any other thoughts or come to mind? 649 00:26:05,515 --> 00:26:08,565 - Well, just, you know, another, another vulnerable thing 650 00:26:08,565 --> 00:26:10,325 to say is when we admit to someone like, 651 00:26:10,485 --> 00:26:11,725 I don't know the answer to this. 652 00:26:12,155 --> 00:26:14,325 Yeah. I don't know how to comfort you right now. 653 00:26:14,685 --> 00:26:15,965 I don't know how to lead you right now, 654 00:26:16,625 --> 00:26:19,645 but I have faith that God knows how to lead both of us. 655 00:26:20,185 --> 00:26:22,805 And then we, we wait and watch, you know? 656 00:26:23,315 --> 00:26:26,565 - Yeah. - So those come to mind. Yeah. 657 00:26:26,665 --> 00:26:27,925 And this is not, that's really helpful. You know, 658 00:26:27,925 --> 00:26:28,925 this is not one size fits all. 659 00:26:28,925 --> 00:26:30,685 Not just telling people to slow down 660 00:26:30,945 --> 00:26:33,765 and chew slower and talk slower. 661 00:26:33,915 --> 00:26:36,045 It's not , it's not that, it's to, it's 662 00:26:36,045 --> 00:26:37,205 to be honest with ourselves. 663 00:26:37,275 --> 00:26:40,405 Like when I'm with other people, am I willing 664 00:26:40,585 --> 00:26:42,165 to be vulnerable? 665 00:26:42,305 --> 00:26:43,725 Am I willing to be seen? 666 00:26:43,865 --> 00:26:46,485 Am I willing to be confused and lost, et cetera? 667 00:26:46,485 --> 00:26:48,205 Like all these experiences, we, 668 00:26:48,305 --> 00:26:50,765 we all are experts at avoiding Mm-Hmm. 669 00:26:50,805 --> 00:26:53,125 , how willing am I to go up to the edge 670 00:26:53,125 --> 00:26:54,245 of my known world? 671 00:26:54,785 --> 00:26:57,245 And when I'm willing, in my experience, when I'm willing 672 00:26:57,245 --> 00:26:58,845 to go up to the edge of my known world, 673 00:26:59,475 --> 00:27:02,445 like something deeper takes over, takes, you know, 674 00:27:02,445 --> 00:27:06,805 once I'm completely out of my, you know, I'm into terror, 675 00:27:07,275 --> 00:27:09,885 incognito, is that the word ? 676 00:27:10,035 --> 00:27:13,005 Like all of a sudden something deeper comes through. Yeah. 677 00:27:13,435 --> 00:27:14,765 - Yeah. And, and, and it takes a bit 678 00:27:14,765 --> 00:27:15,925 of faith to do that, to slow down. 679 00:27:16,125 --> 00:27:19,325 'cause know you wanna be the leader that is just fast 680 00:27:19,355 --> 00:27:20,885 with response in this scripture, 681 00:27:20,945 --> 00:27:22,605 and let's go here and, and there you go. 682 00:27:22,605 --> 00:27:24,285 Right. A, B, and C. That's the, the, you know, 683 00:27:24,285 --> 00:27:25,725 we'll see you next week or whatever . 684 00:27:25,755 --> 00:27:27,365 Yeah, exactly. And then off the go. Yeah, 685 00:27:27,715 --> 00:27:28,715 - Exactly. 686 00:27:28,715 --> 00:27:33,125 It's difficult. So sometimes knowing this experience 687 00:27:33,125 --> 00:27:35,845 of like saying, I know what to do, sometimes we just do, 688 00:27:35,845 --> 00:27:36,925 sometimes we just know. 689 00:27:37,705 --> 00:27:41,525 And sometimes we realize that knowing has been masquerading 690 00:27:42,145 --> 00:27:44,645 as knowing and actually that knowing is insecurity 691 00:27:44,705 --> 00:27:46,405 and it's fear and it's anxiety. 692 00:27:46,465 --> 00:27:48,005 And it's, I'm not willing to slow down 693 00:27:48,005 --> 00:27:50,405 because it's actually too intense to realize that 694 00:27:51,035 --> 00:27:53,725 I've been pretending to know more than I actually know. 695 00:27:54,465 --> 00:27:55,885 - You know, there's digs my mind, 696 00:27:55,885 --> 00:27:57,765 and I'll just mention this, maybe it's meant to be, 697 00:27:57,765 --> 00:27:59,125 but the, an exercise I do, 698 00:27:59,125 --> 00:28:01,165 and I got it from a, a different author, 699 00:28:01,705 --> 00:28:05,045 he talks about this, the power of, uh, a list of 10 ideas. 700 00:28:05,105 --> 00:28:06,725 So whenever I'm facing a problem 701 00:28:06,865 --> 00:28:10,125 or I have a question, I, I force myself to sit down and, 702 00:28:10,125 --> 00:28:13,005 and write out 10 ideas as far as the next step 703 00:28:13,065 --> 00:28:15,165 or how I can approach it or whatever it be. 704 00:28:15,505 --> 00:28:17,845 And it's interesting to see what unfolds in that, 705 00:28:17,845 --> 00:28:21,725 because by idea number three or four, I, I actually have one 706 00:28:21,725 --> 00:28:23,085 or two ideas that are pretty solid 707 00:28:23,085 --> 00:28:24,885 that I can actually move, move forward with. 708 00:28:25,035 --> 00:28:27,125 Yeah. But by forcing myself to now, 709 00:28:27,265 --> 00:28:28,485 no, no, no, I'm not done yet. 710 00:28:28,675 --> 00:28:31,245 Yeah. I'm going to finish the list of 10 711 00:28:31,245 --> 00:28:33,205 and maybe there's 12, 15, 20. 712 00:28:33,555 --> 00:28:34,925 Yeah. I'm just gonna let that do that. 713 00:28:34,985 --> 00:28:36,845 And it's remarkable by the ninth 714 00:28:36,865 --> 00:28:38,685 or 10th line that I get to, 715 00:28:39,225 --> 00:28:41,085 not only is it a great next step, 716 00:28:41,145 --> 00:28:44,365 but I mean, there, it's sort of laced with revelation 717 00:28:44,365 --> 00:28:46,125 because it just opens up 718 00:28:46,145 --> 00:28:48,445 and like, wow, that is a phenomenal next step 719 00:28:48,465 --> 00:28:49,605 or a phenomenal idea. 720 00:28:49,665 --> 00:28:53,165 But if I didn't give the space of just slowing down and, 721 00:28:53,165 --> 00:28:55,325 and going through the whole process, I never would've gotten 722 00:28:55,325 --> 00:28:56,885 to that deeper revelation. 723 00:28:57,355 --> 00:28:59,845 - Yeah. No, that's a beautiful example. I love that. Yeah. 724 00:29:00,425 --> 00:29:02,925 - You know, you, you mentioned your grandparents in the 725 00:29:02,925 --> 00:29:04,885 book, you'd tell a story about going to conference 726 00:29:04,885 --> 00:29:07,005 to hear your, your grandfather speaking conference. 727 00:29:07,005 --> 00:29:09,045 Yeah. Will you give us the, the circumstance of that and, 728 00:29:09,105 --> 00:29:10,605 and what you learned from that experience? 729 00:29:11,355 --> 00:29:15,645 - Just 2008, I remember kind of being in between tours, 730 00:29:15,675 --> 00:29:17,045 like, you know, I was between Europe 731 00:29:17,105 --> 00:29:19,245 and China, my whole, the whole of my twenties. 732 00:29:19,995 --> 00:29:23,445 Yeah. I went to conference and my granddad spoke. 733 00:29:24,065 --> 00:29:25,925 It became a pretty wellknown talk come what may 734 00:29:25,925 --> 00:29:28,045 and love at least for the, you know, wir offic, 735 00:29:28,235 --> 00:29:29,405 certainly for our family. 736 00:29:29,465 --> 00:29:30,765 It became a well known dog. 737 00:29:30,965 --> 00:29:32,045 - . Yes, - Absolutely. But, um, 738 00:29:32,125 --> 00:29:34,125 - I was, and you were in the church at this time, right? 739 00:29:34,145 --> 00:29:35,845 Or you weren't active, quote unquote active, 740 00:29:36,125 --> 00:29:37,365 - Hadn't, hadn't been in the church 741 00:29:37,465 --> 00:29:39,485 for 15 years at that point, a long time. 742 00:29:39,745 --> 00:29:42,325 And was really what really struck me, 743 00:29:42,325 --> 00:29:43,725 what touched my heart about 744 00:29:43,725 --> 00:29:45,405 that talk is it felt so familiar. 745 00:29:46,245 --> 00:29:50,405 Actually, I had a rare experience at that time in my life 746 00:29:50,405 --> 00:29:53,285 of feeling like I was at home when I was 747 00:29:53,285 --> 00:29:54,525 like at a church function. 748 00:29:54,525 --> 00:29:56,325 In this case it was general conference. Mm-Hmm. 749 00:29:56,365 --> 00:29:57,565 , uh, everything. 750 00:29:57,665 --> 00:30:00,245 My granddad said it, it spoke to my heart. 751 00:30:00,385 --> 00:30:04,805 And my heart told me that I, I know this what he's saying. 752 00:30:04,925 --> 00:30:07,445 I love, I love what this man loves. 753 00:30:08,465 --> 00:30:10,965 And that was one of those moments to, to have the experience 754 00:30:10,965 --> 00:30:13,885 of loving what a dear family member of mine loved. 755 00:30:14,645 --> 00:30:16,085 I was back home, you know, 756 00:30:16,495 --> 00:30:18,085 after all those years of being away 757 00:30:18,245 --> 00:30:19,525 and not feeling like I had a home. 758 00:30:19,905 --> 00:30:20,925 It really changed me. 759 00:30:21,105 --> 00:30:24,565 And, uh, it also evoked, I think, some of the deepest wisdom 760 00:30:25,105 --> 00:30:27,085 of Christ's teachings. 761 00:30:27,425 --> 00:30:29,485 You know, like, come what may 762 00:30:29,485 --> 00:30:32,565 and love it is a kind of, it's some kind of 763 00:30:33,645 --> 00:30:37,125 parallel phrase with thy will be done. 764 00:30:37,615 --> 00:30:39,725 Right. It's like, whatever comes up, 765 00:30:40,025 --> 00:30:41,365 I'm gonna just give it my whole heart 766 00:30:41,385 --> 00:30:43,005 and I'm gonna love it, even if it's not 767 00:30:43,395 --> 00:30:45,605 what I would've chosen for myself in this moment. 768 00:30:46,195 --> 00:30:49,165 Yeah. So there was the homecoming for me, there's 769 00:30:49,165 --> 00:30:51,685 that element, but then there was also just being laid bare 770 00:30:51,825 --> 00:30:56,445 by Christ's depth and his love that I felt in that talk. 771 00:30:56,505 --> 00:30:59,005 So that was, yeah, it was a special experience for me 772 00:30:59,005 --> 00:31:00,445 that I share about a little in the book. 773 00:31:01,025 --> 00:31:03,645 - And, you know, as you, as you talk about your grandfather, 774 00:31:03,665 --> 00:31:05,285 and not only in this book, in other context, 775 00:31:05,425 --> 00:31:08,645 as we've had conversations that, I mean, as an individual 776 00:31:08,705 --> 00:31:11,325 who maybe had, you know, stepped away from the gospel 777 00:31:11,945 --> 00:31:13,845 and not the traditional route 778 00:31:13,965 --> 00:31:16,285 and sort of got on this, uh, you know, this journey 779 00:31:16,285 --> 00:31:18,325 around the world and learning about their mindfulness 780 00:31:18,505 --> 00:31:20,125 and Buddhism and all these things. 781 00:31:20,805 --> 00:31:23,205 I think there were probably many opportunities to 782 00:31:23,925 --> 00:31:25,805 classify your grandfather as far as, 783 00:31:25,805 --> 00:31:27,005 you know, especially an apostle. 784 00:31:27,005 --> 00:31:28,005 I mean, talk about Orthodox 785 00:31:28,025 --> 00:31:30,405 and, you know, he just doesn't get it or, but, 786 00:31:30,865 --> 00:31:35,525 but just these examples of you capturing like these moments 787 00:31:35,585 --> 00:31:38,885 of love and that, I mean, he really was just this being 788 00:31:38,885 --> 00:31:41,285 of love that when there was probably many, 789 00:31:41,715 --> 00:31:43,325 many ways you could maybe stretch it 790 00:31:43,325 --> 00:31:45,165 and fit him into the box of like, ah, you know, 791 00:31:45,165 --> 00:31:46,285 just roll your eyes at Grandfather. 792 00:31:46,305 --> 00:31:47,445 He goes again, you know, Mr. 793 00:31:47,555 --> 00:31:51,005 Apostle, or, you know, I mean he did really did was just a, 794 00:31:51,365 --> 00:31:54,045 a loving man that in hindsight you look back, that, 795 00:31:54,045 --> 00:31:55,645 that God was just showing up for you 796 00:31:55,875 --> 00:31:57,885 through him in unique ways. Yeah. 797 00:31:58,335 --> 00:32:01,645 - Thank you. Yeah. That rings true to my experience. 798 00:32:02,065 --> 00:32:03,525 You know, sometimes when we call, 799 00:32:04,135 --> 00:32:07,685 often I think when we call someone simple in modern English, 800 00:32:07,685 --> 00:32:08,685 it's pejorative. 801 00:32:08,785 --> 00:32:12,125 We mean that that person's like kind of slow or Right. 802 00:32:12,515 --> 00:32:15,685 Dimwitted, my granddad was a very simple man, 803 00:32:16,305 --> 00:32:19,165 and it was, it was actually in his willingness to be simple 804 00:32:19,355 --> 00:32:21,245 that I felt the deepest love. 805 00:32:21,905 --> 00:32:23,965 So I think just his influence really 806 00:32:24,905 --> 00:32:26,925 shaped the way I experienced the gospel 807 00:32:27,465 --> 00:32:29,445 and that that was a real juxtaposition. 808 00:32:29,605 --> 00:32:32,925 I admire many McConkey are gifted 809 00:32:32,925 --> 00:32:36,205 with quite keen intellects, um, Bruce r McConkey. 810 00:32:36,635 --> 00:32:38,485 Many know he had a very keen intellect, 811 00:32:38,485 --> 00:32:40,125 and I admire that gift very much. 812 00:32:40,225 --> 00:32:43,445 But it was interesting to see in my family those two kinds 813 00:32:43,445 --> 00:32:46,965 of gifts playing out like very keen intellects, like 814 00:32:47,595 --> 00:32:50,805 doctrinally very sharp mind scripts 815 00:32:51,345 --> 00:32:53,805 and that kind of tradition in the McConkey family. 816 00:32:54,465 --> 00:32:56,365 And I think, uh, a tradition 817 00:32:56,365 --> 00:32:59,565 of simple virtue in the Wirthlin family. 818 00:32:59,585 --> 00:33:01,925 And we need both, obviously they're both, you know, 819 00:33:02,175 --> 00:33:04,125 equal gifts in God's eyes. 820 00:33:04,785 --> 00:33:07,565 And to me, like what really changed my heart was my 821 00:33:07,565 --> 00:33:08,765 grandparents' simplicity. 822 00:33:09,355 --> 00:33:11,445 - Yeah. And, uh, I love reading about your story 823 00:33:11,445 --> 00:33:12,925 of just being, you know, 824 00:33:13,435 --> 00:33:15,325 what was the experience talking about? 825 00:33:15,325 --> 00:33:16,605 Like, you just wake up one day 826 00:33:16,605 --> 00:33:18,405 and you think I'm going to church, you know, 827 00:33:18,405 --> 00:33:20,485 and Yeah, you walk into this, this Yeah. 828 00:33:20,685 --> 00:33:22,245 LDS chapel, like here I am. 829 00:33:22,365 --> 00:33:24,325 I don't know why I'm here, but, uh, yeah. 830 00:33:24,745 --> 00:33:26,245 But I just love that that draw 831 00:33:26,765 --> 00:33:27,765 - I was blown away. 832 00:33:27,765 --> 00:33:30,205 Yeah. No, and that's very much in the spirit of simplicity. 833 00:33:30,205 --> 00:33:31,285 Like it that was, 834 00:33:31,425 --> 00:33:34,605 and I, you know, for people listening, Kurt's referring 835 00:33:34,605 --> 00:33:37,285 to a moment, just a little vignette from the book where 836 00:33:37,865 --> 00:33:39,645 it was an utterly simple moment. 837 00:33:40,325 --> 00:33:42,205 I literally had no thought about it. 838 00:33:42,245 --> 00:33:44,565 I hadn't been to church in 20 years, and I woke up 839 00:33:44,625 --> 00:33:47,965 and I thought, wow, I'm, I'm surprised as anybody, 840 00:33:47,985 --> 00:33:51,845 but I, only thing I wanna do is go to church today, . 841 00:33:52,185 --> 00:33:55,005 And that was the simplicity of God's love. 842 00:33:55,105 --> 00:33:57,605 It was too simple for even a thought. Yeah. 843 00:33:57,825 --> 00:33:59,325 Had I started to think about it, 844 00:33:59,485 --> 00:34:01,085 I wouldn't have made it halfway to church 845 00:34:01,085 --> 00:34:02,605 because it wouldn't have made any sense. 846 00:34:03,225 --> 00:34:07,005 So in that way, I think God blesses us with a, a love that's 847 00:34:07,005 --> 00:34:09,925 so simple, we can't formulate it in the mind. 848 00:34:10,275 --> 00:34:12,525 - Yeah. And you know, going back to 849 00:34:12,525 --> 00:34:13,765 that leadership perspective, I mean, 850 00:34:13,845 --> 00:34:15,605 I think some leaders hear that like, alright, Thomas, 851 00:34:15,635 --> 00:34:17,245 tell us how we, how do we can that? 852 00:34:17,345 --> 00:34:19,645 And so that I can give, there's a lot of people in my ward 853 00:34:19,645 --> 00:34:20,805 that they just need to just, 854 00:34:20,905 --> 00:34:22,125 you know, wake up and come to church. 855 00:34:22,265 --> 00:34:24,885 So how do I do that? Yeah. There's like a deeper relational 856 00:34:24,915 --> 00:34:26,005 dynamic happening there. 857 00:34:26,085 --> 00:34:27,365 I mean, what comes to mind for leaders 858 00:34:27,385 --> 00:34:29,605 who are just desperate for, I mean, 859 00:34:29,605 --> 00:34:32,125 obviously we want individuals to just show up to church 860 00:34:32,125 --> 00:34:33,125 and fill his love and, 861 00:34:33,225 --> 00:34:35,605 and have that that ping in their heart, you know? 862 00:34:35,995 --> 00:34:39,165 - Yeah. No, I, and what a, what a difficult job. 863 00:34:39,625 --> 00:34:43,285 So many leaders have to love their congregants, 864 00:34:43,285 --> 00:34:45,405 love the people and their ward families and their stakes. 865 00:34:45,425 --> 00:34:48,125 And, and to genuinely want them 866 00:34:48,185 --> 00:34:50,125 to be in the fold in the congregation 867 00:34:50,265 --> 00:34:52,365 and have no idea how that's gonna happen 868 00:34:52,425 --> 00:34:54,125 or what they can do to affect that. 869 00:34:54,885 --> 00:34:57,685 I can say, you know, not to get on too much of a, you know, 870 00:34:57,685 --> 00:34:59,885 my worth on grandparents and that whole kick. 871 00:35:00,065 --> 00:35:04,245 But, um, another lesson I learned from my grandparents was 872 00:35:04,675 --> 00:35:06,045 what I've called in the past, 873 00:35:06,225 --> 00:35:07,925 the way they played the long game. 874 00:35:08,805 --> 00:35:12,805 I did not feel a shred of anxiety from them about 875 00:35:12,835 --> 00:35:14,125 what was going on in my life. 876 00:35:14,455 --> 00:35:17,005 Maybe they felt anxiety about me, maybe they didn't. 877 00:35:17,185 --> 00:35:19,565 But when I was with them, I sure didn't feel it. 878 00:35:20,265 --> 00:35:22,765 It was as if they had so much faith, 879 00:35:23,545 --> 00:35:25,405 and faith being, you know, 880 00:35:26,105 --> 00:35:28,085 in some ways a synonym of patience. 881 00:35:28,435 --> 00:35:30,605 When we have infinite faith, we have infinite patience. 882 00:35:30,845 --> 00:35:32,605 'cause I, I already know what's gonna happen. 883 00:35:32,725 --> 00:35:33,765 I don't know when it's gonna happen 884 00:35:33,785 --> 00:35:35,005 or how, but I know what's gonna happen. 885 00:35:35,165 --> 00:35:38,695 I have faith. So I felt that that coupling of faith 886 00:35:38,875 --> 00:35:40,815 and patience with my grandparents 887 00:35:41,435 --> 00:35:43,335 and in that sense, like, you know, 888 00:35:43,365 --> 00:35:45,135 what was 20 years away from church, 889 00:35:45,235 --> 00:35:48,415 I'm not recommending people take 20 years away from the 890 00:35:48,415 --> 00:35:49,495 church or not, or don't, 891 00:35:49,675 --> 00:35:52,855 but what was 20 years in the eternal scheme of things. 892 00:35:53,735 --> 00:35:57,415 I think my grandparents better than most people I ever met 893 00:35:57,415 --> 00:35:59,975 on the planet, I think they had an idea of 894 00:35:59,975 --> 00:36:02,575 what 20 years was in the eternal scheme of things. 895 00:36:02,635 --> 00:36:05,175 Mm-Hmm. , I think more than I do 896 00:36:05,175 --> 00:36:09,495 and more than many of us, they could see years and centuries 897 00:36:09,495 --> 00:36:12,055 and millennia in the way that God sees years 898 00:36:12,235 --> 00:36:13,615 and centuries in millennia. 899 00:36:13,995 --> 00:36:16,735 And so they, they gave me a lot of grace and a lot of space. 900 00:36:16,875 --> 00:36:20,255 And paradoxically that changed my heart instantaneously. 901 00:36:20,805 --> 00:36:22,855 Yeah. Yeah. It took no time for that 902 00:36:22,955 --> 00:36:25,055 to bring about a mighty change of heart. 903 00:36:25,565 --> 00:36:27,615 Yeah. So, I don't know how it works, Kurt . 904 00:36:27,655 --> 00:36:28,695 I don't know how it works. That's cool. 905 00:36:29,095 --> 00:36:32,175 I just, yeah, exactly. But it does work something very, 906 00:36:32,445 --> 00:36:33,455 very deep Yeah. 907 00:36:33,595 --> 00:36:36,655 Is working right now, working in US and through us 908 00:36:37,395 --> 00:36:39,135 and we, we call him Christ. 909 00:36:39,725 --> 00:36:44,135 Yeah. And my faith is deeper and more settled 910 00:36:44,275 --> 00:36:48,095 and more powerful when I take time to just slow down here 911 00:36:48,095 --> 00:36:49,655 and there and like reconnect. 912 00:36:49,805 --> 00:36:50,855 Like, oh yeah. 913 00:36:51,935 --> 00:36:55,255 I get so busy, you know, buzzing up here with all my ideas 914 00:36:55,435 --> 00:36:56,495 and everything I gotta do. 915 00:36:57,295 --> 00:36:58,455 'cause everything I do is so important 916 00:36:58,555 --> 00:36:59,575 and it's all gotta get done. 917 00:37:00,045 --> 00:37:01,495 Yeah. When I just drop down 918 00:37:02,235 --> 00:37:04,255 and remember that it's like, oh, yeah. 919 00:37:04,835 --> 00:37:07,615 You know, like, I, I need to remember to play the long game. 920 00:37:08,295 --> 00:37:10,335 I had good teachers that showed me that. 921 00:37:10,805 --> 00:37:11,895 Yeah. . Yeah. 922 00:37:12,315 --> 00:37:14,135 - You know, you mentioned, uh, slowing down again and, 923 00:37:14,235 --> 00:37:16,415 and, you know, going back even further in our conversation 924 00:37:16,435 --> 00:37:18,455 as far as, you know, slowing down by 5% 925 00:37:18,995 --> 00:37:20,815 and another thought experiment that I, I'd love 926 00:37:20,815 --> 00:37:22,935 to like step into and just see what we could learn here 927 00:37:22,935 --> 00:37:25,135 because, you know, leadership can be such an, 928 00:37:25,155 --> 00:37:28,175 an administrative heavy experience I had Sunday morning. 929 00:37:28,185 --> 00:37:30,375 Gotta make sure the doors are unlocked, the lights are on, 930 00:37:30,395 --> 00:37:31,775 you know, chapel's ready to go. 931 00:37:31,875 --> 00:37:33,055 All right. Someone playing the, the 932 00:37:33,135 --> 00:37:34,215 hymns like, all right, we're good. 933 00:37:34,335 --> 00:37:35,695 I think, you know, here we go. Right. 934 00:37:36,115 --> 00:37:38,855 And when you sort get caught up in these steps. Right. 935 00:37:39,275 --> 00:37:41,695 And I would just be interested, like, what comes to mind, 936 00:37:41,715 --> 00:37:43,095 and I mean, I, I hope 937 00:37:43,095 --> 00:37:47,335 and pray there's a, a moment in time where, you know, 938 00:37:47,335 --> 00:37:50,695 Bishop McConkey exists as far as like you as a bishop. 939 00:37:50,725 --> 00:37:52,615 Like what would that board look 940 00:37:52,615 --> 00:37:53,615 - Like? 941 00:37:53,615 --> 00:37:56,055 I'd, I'd be honored. I'd be honored someday. Kurt . 942 00:37:56,115 --> 00:37:59,015 - Yes. Well, if, if, uh, there's an application process, 943 00:37:59,275 --> 00:38:02,135 I'm gonna send an endorsement letter with a, but, uh, 944 00:38:03,435 --> 00:38:05,975 but I'm just curious, like what would that look like 945 00:38:06,035 --> 00:38:07,575 or what perspective could you give 946 00:38:07,595 --> 00:38:09,575 to a leader walking into a typical Sunday 947 00:38:09,575 --> 00:38:12,615 where they're about to facilitate a sa meeting, 948 00:38:12,825 --> 00:38:15,375 where the most sacred emblems of that week are gonna be, 949 00:38:15,715 --> 00:38:18,015 you know, given to that, that congregation? 950 00:38:18,275 --> 00:38:20,335 And how do we slow down 5% there? 951 00:38:20,335 --> 00:38:22,575 Or how, I mean, what or what other concepts could we think 952 00:38:22,575 --> 00:38:26,375 about just sort of being the administrator of the gospel, 953 00:38:27,195 --> 00:38:29,215 - The response that's coming up right now? 954 00:38:29,495 --> 00:38:30,495 I have a feeling you 955 00:38:30,495 --> 00:38:33,735 and the listeners might not like, oh, never even better. 956 00:38:33,735 --> 00:38:35,600 That's, nevertheless, nevertheless, 957 00:38:35,755 --> 00:38:38,405 this is the genuine response coming up that love it. 958 00:38:39,205 --> 00:38:42,125 I do not want to offer some formula of 959 00:38:42,125 --> 00:38:45,605 what some like future version of myself might do 960 00:38:45,665 --> 00:38:47,445 to open up a sacrament meeting. 961 00:38:47,715 --> 00:38:49,085 That would be just some idea 962 00:38:49,585 --> 00:38:52,245 and it would be some formula i, I appeal to. 963 00:38:52,245 --> 00:38:54,165 And like, once I have the formula, then I can finally 964 00:38:54,165 --> 00:38:55,325 just, then I just know. 965 00:38:55,325 --> 00:38:56,485 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 966 00:38:56,485 --> 00:39:00,245 And like part of this vulnerability is saying like, 967 00:39:00,465 --> 00:39:02,045 I'm not gonna know till I get there. 968 00:39:02,595 --> 00:39:04,325 It's when Nephi says, I was led 969 00:39:04,345 --> 00:39:07,205 by the spirit not knowing beforehand the things which I 970 00:39:07,205 --> 00:39:08,445 would do, or something to that effect. 971 00:39:08,835 --> 00:39:12,285 Yeah. It's very, it's naked, it's vulnerable. 972 00:39:12,365 --> 00:39:13,445 It's like, what am I doing here? 973 00:39:13,675 --> 00:39:15,805 It's like, why I'm bishop, are you kidding me? 974 00:39:16,625 --> 00:39:21,245 But to like actually relax into that intensity and anxiety, 975 00:39:21,505 --> 00:39:23,845 and again, this faith of, 976 00:39:24,385 --> 00:39:26,325 but I know something deeper is gonna come 977 00:39:26,325 --> 00:39:30,445 through me if I don't allow myself to be moved by anxiety 978 00:39:30,785 --> 00:39:34,685 and restlessness and my own vanity to try to be, to try 979 00:39:34,685 --> 00:39:36,485 to appear to others to be more 980 00:39:36,485 --> 00:39:37,645 put together than I actually am. 981 00:39:37,705 --> 00:39:40,285 If I can just let something deeper come through, 982 00:39:40,285 --> 00:39:41,605 it wants to come through. 983 00:39:42,465 --> 00:39:44,685 And let me add to maybe you guys, maybe this is the part 984 00:39:44,685 --> 00:39:46,045 of the response you might like. 985 00:39:46,345 --> 00:39:48,485 Um, okay. Yeah. Slow, slow down. Fine. 986 00:39:48,605 --> 00:39:49,885 - I appreciate what you said. That's 987 00:39:49,885 --> 00:39:50,885 - Good. 988 00:39:50,885 --> 00:39:53,605 Slow down, 5%, slow down, 50%, 989 00:39:54,225 --> 00:39:55,285 but then speed up. 990 00:39:56,065 --> 00:39:57,205 I'm not just here 991 00:39:57,265 --> 00:39:59,445 to offer some formula about we're all going too 992 00:39:59,445 --> 00:40:00,485 fast, we should slow down. 993 00:40:00,575 --> 00:40:02,045 Maybe that's true, maybe it's not. 994 00:40:02,785 --> 00:40:05,885 But I think it, from my experience, when I'm willing 995 00:40:05,985 --> 00:40:08,485 to go slow and feel something new 996 00:40:08,665 --> 00:40:12,925 and be moved in a new way, well, when I'm inspired, boom, 997 00:40:13,005 --> 00:40:14,005 I get up and I serve 998 00:40:14,065 --> 00:40:16,885 and I do something that's surprising to even me. 999 00:40:17,305 --> 00:40:19,205 And that might ask me to go really fast. 1000 00:40:19,875 --> 00:40:23,485 This is not some like formulaic conversation about 1001 00:40:24,075 --> 00:40:26,165 slowing down in the modern age that, I mean, 1002 00:40:26,165 --> 00:40:27,365 just kill me right now. 1003 00:40:27,365 --> 00:40:28,765 If that's what we're talking about, . 1004 00:40:28,765 --> 00:40:31,285 It's, it's deeper. It's, if we slow down, 1005 00:40:31,345 --> 00:40:34,125 it will allow the spirit to speed us up in the moments 1006 00:40:34,275 --> 00:40:35,405 that we need to speed up. 1007 00:40:35,405 --> 00:40:36,445 And it'll allow the spirit 1008 00:40:36,465 --> 00:40:39,445 to slow us down in the moments when we're going fast, just 1009 00:40:39,565 --> 00:40:41,005 'cause we're in that habit of going fast. 1010 00:40:41,745 --> 00:40:44,965 So there's something about that, like, it's this dynamic 1011 00:40:45,515 --> 00:40:50,125 equilibrium of life and the spirit being willing to go slow 1012 00:40:50,425 --> 00:40:51,725 and willing to go fast. 1013 00:40:52,385 --> 00:40:55,805 And I think proving those contraries, if you'll to borrow, 1014 00:40:56,025 --> 00:40:59,125 you know, a phrase from Joseph Smith, when we prove both 1015 00:40:59,125 --> 00:41:01,565 of those Aries, when we show our willingness to do both 1016 00:41:01,565 --> 00:41:03,685 of them, that's in my experience, 1017 00:41:03,685 --> 00:41:05,845 when the spirit can like really live 1018 00:41:05,845 --> 00:41:08,045 through us in new and surprising ways. 1019 00:41:08,595 --> 00:41:10,645 - Yeah. You know, as, as you go through all that, 1020 00:41:10,645 --> 00:41:12,645 and I'm not sure if this is what you're articulating, 1021 00:41:12,645 --> 00:41:15,005 but this is what came up for me, is this, this sense 1022 00:41:15,005 --> 00:41:16,405 of authenticity as, 1023 00:41:16,665 --> 00:41:18,485 as a leader shows up on a Sunday morning. 1024 00:41:18,955 --> 00:41:21,605 It's not about being prescriptive about this, 1025 00:41:21,605 --> 00:41:23,685 how you handle it, and this is what you say or do, 1026 00:41:24,065 --> 00:41:26,925 but, uh, to just be, be real in that moment 1027 00:41:26,985 --> 00:41:29,285 and just be who you are presently. 1028 00:41:29,285 --> 00:41:32,565 Yeah. And, and that's who the, you can offer to the ward. 1029 00:41:32,665 --> 00:41:35,005 It reminds me of an experience when I was bishop 1030 00:41:35,265 --> 00:41:38,245 and, uh, we had just had our, our son that week, 1031 00:41:38,385 --> 00:41:41,645 and it led to, uh, he had some complications 1032 00:41:41,665 --> 00:41:44,685 and he was, it led to 26 days in the nicu. 1033 00:41:44,685 --> 00:41:48,285 Right. And that Sunday was ward conference where I was 1034 00:41:48,885 --> 00:41:51,685 planning to speak, and I remember I stood up at the lectern 1035 00:41:51,845 --> 00:41:54,565 and there I am, like, I'm just like overwhelmed by the worry 1036 00:41:54,665 --> 00:41:57,365 of my little newborn son in the hospital. 1037 00:41:57,505 --> 00:41:59,565 And, and here I am, you know, as the bishop 1038 00:41:59,785 --> 00:42:01,005 and gotta give this talk. 1039 00:42:01,005 --> 00:42:03,725 And I remember, uh, saying to the congregation, 1040 00:42:04,165 --> 00:42:05,805 I have no business in talking right now 1041 00:42:05,805 --> 00:42:08,485 because I am so broken and I'm so fearful 1042 00:42:08,705 --> 00:42:10,445 and I'm, so, I don't know what to do. 1043 00:42:10,445 --> 00:42:13,245 Yeah. Yeah. And that sort of became the launchpad of this, 1044 00:42:13,555 --> 00:42:17,325 this talk where I articulated how the savior was showing up 1045 00:42:17,325 --> 00:42:19,045 for me in that moment and, and Right. 1046 00:42:19,185 --> 00:42:22,565 So, and it was such a healing, unifying experience 1047 00:42:22,565 --> 00:42:25,085 for the war to see, to be the bishop that 1048 00:42:25,155 --> 00:42:27,525 that was worried just as many, just as much as many 1049 00:42:27,525 --> 00:42:29,565 of them in the, the congregation were 1050 00:42:29,565 --> 00:42:30,885 worried about their own self, you know? 1051 00:42:30,985 --> 00:42:32,645 So. Yeah. Exactly. Anyways, that's what came to mind, 1052 00:42:32,675 --> 00:42:34,165 that authenticity of 1053 00:42:34,205 --> 00:42:35,205 - A leader. 1054 00:42:35,205 --> 00:42:36,165 Yeah. Ex you know, I love that. 1055 00:42:36,185 --> 00:42:38,165 That's such a moving story to me. 1056 00:42:38,945 --> 00:42:41,485 And it reminds me of, you know, 1057 00:42:41,745 --> 00:42:45,325 in some ways authenticity is a bit of a battle cry 1058 00:42:45,465 --> 00:42:46,485 for the millennials. 1059 00:42:46,485 --> 00:42:47,685 That's a word. , 1060 00:42:48,045 --> 00:42:52,085 I think its incident has increased 10000% this generation. 1061 00:42:52,085 --> 00:42:56,045 Yeah. And that can evoke some eyerolling, some of it Mm-Hmm. 1062 00:42:56,085 --> 00:42:57,845 narrative. Mm-Hmm. . But it's 1063 00:42:57,845 --> 00:42:59,685 also pointing to something deeply powerful 1064 00:42:59,685 --> 00:43:02,165 that I think you're pointing to, like, to be authentic is 1065 00:43:02,165 --> 00:43:04,085 to be, it's another way of saying honest, 1066 00:43:04,675 --> 00:43:06,445 just being honest, not being a phony. 1067 00:43:06,705 --> 00:43:09,125 And I think, I think that does matter, . 1068 00:43:09,315 --> 00:43:10,365 - Yeah. That's really powerful. 1069 00:43:10,785 --> 00:43:12,445 So in this book, I'm trying to remember 1070 00:43:13,145 --> 00:43:15,965 how old your kids were when you did the first, you know, 1071 00:43:15,965 --> 00:43:17,485 the online series, but in this book, 1072 00:43:17,485 --> 00:43:20,045 there's parenting moments that you recorded Yeah. 1073 00:43:20,165 --> 00:43:22,245 totally. And how your, this fullness 1074 00:43:22,905 --> 00:43:26,125 of mortality was showing up in, in your role as a parent. 1075 00:43:26,545 --> 00:43:27,685 Uh, yeah. What, what comes to mind? 1076 00:43:27,685 --> 00:43:29,205 Like if you were speak to a group of parents 1077 00:43:29,345 --> 00:43:33,285 and just sort of having that fullness in terms of parenting. 1078 00:43:33,285 --> 00:43:34,365 Oh man. What, what comes to mind? 1079 00:43:34,755 --> 00:43:39,165 - What comes to mind when you ask this very tired dad 1080 00:43:39,675 --> 00:43:41,165 with a three and a half year old 1081 00:43:41,185 --> 00:43:43,005 and a 1-year-old daughter now? 1082 00:43:43,785 --> 00:43:47,005 The fullness of exhaustion, the fullness of frustration, 1083 00:43:47,145 --> 00:43:48,805 the fullness of, you know, like uhhuh , 1084 00:43:49,035 --> 00:43:50,685 it's super intense right now. 1085 00:43:51,785 --> 00:43:54,725 You know, my kids, they show me right where I break, 1086 00:43:55,315 --> 00:43:58,845 like every day they show me the, the upper limits 1087 00:43:58,845 --> 00:44:00,805 of my patience and my love. 1088 00:44:00,965 --> 00:44:03,485 Mm-Hmm. and all that stuff. 1089 00:44:04,305 --> 00:44:07,045 So parenting is a recovery practice for me. 1090 00:44:07,235 --> 00:44:10,125 It's, it's noticing like I run out of patience 1091 00:44:10,385 --> 00:44:13,485 and noticing, like, hopefully I don't spend too much time in 1092 00:44:13,485 --> 00:44:15,085 that space where I've run out of patience 1093 00:44:15,625 --> 00:44:18,605 and then realizing like, oh yeah, I need to learn to bring, 1094 00:44:18,905 --> 00:44:20,325 you know, more grace 1095 00:44:20,385 --> 00:44:23,285 and more love to this moment to myself, to my kids. 1096 00:44:24,185 --> 00:44:27,165 So, you know, , if I'm totally honest, uh, 1097 00:44:27,435 --> 00:44:32,005 parenting right now is like just showing me, you know, 1098 00:44:32,145 --> 00:44:34,245 moment after moment holding up a mirror 1099 00:44:34,265 --> 00:44:37,525 to me in all the places I need to grow, all the ways 1100 00:44:37,525 --> 00:44:40,045 that life, all the ways that God is asking me to grow. 1101 00:44:40,185 --> 00:44:42,325 And it's, it's painful. Yeah. 1102 00:44:42,355 --> 00:44:44,165 It's sweet growth. It's painful growth. 1103 00:44:44,635 --> 00:44:46,285 - Yeah. My experience, you know, 1104 00:44:46,285 --> 00:44:47,845 and I, I resonated with a lot 1105 00:44:47,845 --> 00:44:49,485 of the examples you gave in the, the book, 1106 00:44:49,545 --> 00:44:53,125 but just this, this new perspective of, you know, we, we go, 1107 00:44:53,185 --> 00:44:55,765 we started in our life sort of in this, I'm the child, 1108 00:44:55,975 --> 00:44:58,725 God's the parent, and then suddenly you're the parent 1109 00:44:58,785 --> 00:45:01,645 to the child, and you gain a different level of empathy 1110 00:45:01,645 --> 00:45:04,725 and understanding of God because you're in that role 1111 00:45:05,025 --> 00:45:07,045 and that fullness is, is interpreted differently. 1112 00:45:07,265 --> 00:45:08,965 That's been my experience, so 1113 00:45:09,155 --> 00:45:10,155 - Yeah. 1114 00:45:10,155 --> 00:45:11,885 I love that. No, it's, it's really powerful. Yeah. 1115 00:45:11,965 --> 00:45:13,805 I think being a parent is, you know, 1116 00:45:13,835 --> 00:45:17,045 it's changed my ideas about what parenting 1117 00:45:17,045 --> 00:45:19,205 and what divine parenting is, so Yeah. 1118 00:45:19,225 --> 00:45:22,165 For, for those of us who are lucky to have our own children 1119 00:45:22,425 --> 00:45:25,605 or adopt or to raise anybody in anything 1120 00:45:25,825 --> 00:45:28,205 as a divine experience, I think. Yeah. 1121 00:45:28,465 --> 00:45:30,405 - And in terms of relationship, 1122 00:45:30,965 --> 00:45:32,645 I wanna maybe spend a few minutes on this 1123 00:45:32,795 --> 00:45:35,605 because in the book you talk about it's a vulnerable moment 1124 00:45:35,665 --> 00:45:37,245 of you talking about some 1125 00:45:37,245 --> 00:45:38,725 counseling you and your wife received. 1126 00:45:38,875 --> 00:45:40,885 Yeah. , uh, just in the dynamics of being married. 1127 00:45:40,895 --> 00:45:42,125 Right. Like, and that 1128 00:45:42,125 --> 00:45:44,685 - Was such a millennial moment when I read the, uh, galleys. 1129 00:45:44,825 --> 00:45:46,405 I'm like, the first page of 1130 00:45:46,405 --> 00:45:48,685 that chapter is like a transcript from a therapy session. 1131 00:45:48,685 --> 00:45:50,445 That's such a millennial thing to do, like 1132 00:45:50,745 --> 00:45:52,885 to just like tell everybody about my therapy session. 1133 00:45:53,145 --> 00:45:54,165 - That's right. Well, therapy's cool, 1134 00:45:54,185 --> 00:45:55,925 - But then I thought it was for the greater good 1135 00:45:57,725 --> 00:45:59,365 - , it is for the greater good. 1136 00:45:59,565 --> 00:46:02,045 I appreciate it. And I don't know if you need to, uh, tell 1137 00:46:02,045 --> 00:46:03,045 that story to put it in the context, 1138 00:46:03,045 --> 00:46:06,205 but I'm just thinking in terms of as leaders, 1139 00:46:06,495 --> 00:46:09,805 we're in the business of relationships, whether it's, uh, 1140 00:46:09,805 --> 00:46:12,925 relationships with those that we lead in our, in our ward. 1141 00:46:12,985 --> 00:46:15,925 Or another thing that came to mind is helping individuals 1142 00:46:16,145 --> 00:46:18,085 who are really struggling with their relationship 1143 00:46:18,085 --> 00:46:19,405 with the church right there. 1144 00:46:19,405 --> 00:46:22,325 There's that, that dissonance, that discontent that, 1145 00:46:22,795 --> 00:46:24,485 that they feel of like, I don't know if I can 1146 00:46:24,485 --> 00:46:25,645 show up here on Sundays. 1147 00:46:25,645 --> 00:46:27,165 Right. And I guess you Right, that was similar 1148 00:46:27,165 --> 00:46:28,485 to your story as, uh, yeah. 1149 00:46:28,485 --> 00:46:30,285 As you, uh, in those teenage years. Right. 1150 00:46:30,345 --> 00:46:32,405 But what comes to mind as far as relationship 1151 00:46:32,545 --> 00:46:34,005 and the fullness or, 1152 00:46:34,065 --> 00:46:36,005 or mindfulness that we can understand in that context? 1153 00:46:36,675 --> 00:46:40,325 - Yeah, so, you know, I moved 1154 00:46:40,425 --> 00:46:43,205 to the United States from China in 2011 1155 00:46:43,625 --> 00:46:47,485 and just, you know, spontaneously got involved in this, 1156 00:46:47,905 --> 00:46:52,165 you know, informal ministry work of spending all my time 1157 00:46:52,475 --> 00:46:55,445 with people who had troubled relationships with the church. 1158 00:46:55,465 --> 00:46:57,845 And I think that happened because that was so much my story. 1159 00:46:58,145 --> 00:47:02,085 It was very easy for me to identify with 1160 00:47:02,085 --> 00:47:03,485 and empath, empathize with. 1161 00:47:04,195 --> 00:47:05,325 I'll bring this full circle. 1162 00:47:05,585 --> 00:47:07,365 You know, we're talking about the fullness 1163 00:47:07,425 --> 00:47:09,885 of our human divinity embodiment. 1164 00:47:10,755 --> 00:47:12,525 Certainly what I realized 1165 00:47:12,525 --> 00:47:16,165 after having hundreds, maybe thousands of conversations 1166 00:47:16,165 --> 00:47:21,005 with people who are struggling in faith, struggling 1167 00:47:21,005 --> 00:47:22,525 with their relationship to the church, 1168 00:47:23,445 --> 00:47:27,125 I realized at a fundamental level, if I did nothing 1169 00:47:27,385 --> 00:47:31,125 but just resonate with them, I mean, at the level 1170 00:47:31,145 --> 00:47:32,405 of our physical bodies 1171 00:47:32,585 --> 00:47:35,005 and an image I like when you push, I don't, 1172 00:47:35,025 --> 00:47:38,205 I'm not a musician, but if you push the left pedal on a 1173 00:47:38,205 --> 00:47:39,885 piano down, is it the left pedal 1174 00:47:39,885 --> 00:47:41,965 that lifts all of the pedals? Or is that the right pedal? 1175 00:47:42,185 --> 00:47:43,685 - Uh, I think the left pedal's the soft 1176 00:47:43,815 --> 00:47:44,965 pedal. Right. . 1177 00:47:44,985 --> 00:47:47,085 - Oh, thank you. We got someone more 1178 00:47:47,085 --> 00:47:48,325 accomplished than me at the piano. 1179 00:47:48,625 --> 00:47:50,045 - I'm a piano lessons drop out, so 1180 00:47:50,235 --> 00:47:51,235 - Okay. 1181 00:47:51,235 --> 00:47:51,885 Same. Okay. We've revealed ourselves, 1182 00:47:51,905 --> 00:47:53,125 but there's a pedal on a piano. 1183 00:47:53,225 --> 00:47:55,845 It lifts all the hammers off the strings uhhuh. 1184 00:47:55,945 --> 00:47:58,045 So that like, once those hammers are lifted up, 1185 00:47:58,265 --> 00:48:00,325 the strings are sensitive to any sound in the room, 1186 00:48:00,385 --> 00:48:01,885 if you like, kind of sing into them, 1187 00:48:02,235 --> 00:48:03,405 they'll start to vibrate. 1188 00:48:03,575 --> 00:48:04,605 Right. Yeah. 1189 00:48:04,665 --> 00:48:07,685 So what I realized after doing hundreds of conversations 1190 00:48:07,715 --> 00:48:10,365 with people who were thinking about leaving the church, 1191 00:48:10,555 --> 00:48:12,925 have left the church, have left the church, 1192 00:48:12,985 --> 00:48:15,285 but are contemplating coming back the whole spectrum, 1193 00:48:16,005 --> 00:48:18,405 I realized like a piano, if I just kind of lift those 1194 00:48:19,195 --> 00:48:20,685 dampeners off the strings 1195 00:48:20,685 --> 00:48:23,205 and I just let anything they're sensing, 1196 00:48:23,565 --> 00:48:26,325 anything they're feeling just vibrate through me, 1197 00:48:26,915 --> 00:48:28,765 that they will feel that accompaniment 1198 00:48:29,505 --> 00:48:32,085 and that God will take care of the rest of that. 1199 00:48:32,775 --> 00:48:34,805 Maybe God will give me something to say. 1200 00:48:35,415 --> 00:48:37,485 Maybe God won't give me something to say, 1201 00:48:37,485 --> 00:48:40,005 but just the accompaniment, the the experience 1202 00:48:40,145 --> 00:48:44,325 of feeling felt was actually healing for people. 1203 00:48:44,625 --> 00:48:49,285 Mm. And I learned to let go of any claim 1204 00:48:49,305 --> 00:48:50,565 to the results after that. 1205 00:48:50,725 --> 00:48:54,045 I just, I could feel something divine working through us 1206 00:48:54,185 --> 00:48:57,765 and edifying us both if I was willing to just be so open 1207 00:48:58,465 --> 00:48:59,525 and without answers, 1208 00:49:00,305 --> 00:49:01,645 unless an answer came 1209 00:49:02,555 --> 00:49:04,845 that they would actually have the experience of like, wow. 1210 00:49:04,915 --> 00:49:07,245 Like I am felt I'm known. 1211 00:49:08,065 --> 00:49:10,525 And of course, the experience of feeling felt 1212 00:49:10,785 --> 00:49:12,965 and knowing that we're known is the experience 1213 00:49:12,965 --> 00:49:14,045 of being loved by God. 1214 00:49:14,625 --> 00:49:18,325 So what could possibly go wrong if, you know, I'm able 1215 00:49:18,325 --> 00:49:23,165 to just like, give people a thimble full of that experience 1216 00:49:23,165 --> 00:49:24,565 of like, wow, I really feel, felt 1217 00:49:24,585 --> 00:49:26,725 and known again, maybe there's more 1218 00:49:26,725 --> 00:49:29,005 to this whole divine love thing than I thought. 1219 00:49:29,645 --> 00:49:32,525 Hmm. That was an experience I had just over many years. 1220 00:49:32,765 --> 00:49:34,885 I mean, I've been doing this work for 13 years now, 1221 00:49:34,945 --> 00:49:38,005 and it really strikes me how, how profound it is 1222 00:49:38,005 --> 00:49:40,525 and how much action is not occurring 1223 00:49:40,525 --> 00:49:42,885 at the level of what we're saying. Right. Yeah. 1224 00:49:43,395 --> 00:49:45,445 - Yeah. And, and again, going back to what you said earlier, 1225 00:49:45,515 --> 00:49:47,565 just allowing love to do love's work and, 1226 00:49:47,745 --> 00:49:50,285 and it really does the heavy lifting, you know, that's the, 1227 00:49:50,285 --> 00:49:51,525 the beauty of it is Yeah. 1228 00:49:51,525 --> 00:49:53,725 And that's the savior is the one doing the lifting, right. 1229 00:49:53,725 --> 00:49:56,565 That Yeah. It's his, it's his yoke 1230 00:49:56,565 --> 00:49:57,925 that we're in and thank you. 1231 00:49:57,925 --> 00:49:58,925 And he's the one carrying us. Right. 1232 00:49:59,195 --> 00:50:01,045 - Yeah. No, you said it, that's the tagline 1233 00:50:01,045 --> 00:50:02,245 for this whole conversation. 1234 00:50:02,555 --> 00:50:04,445 Yeah. You know, to let love, 1235 00:50:04,515 --> 00:50:06,485 love do the heavy lifting. Yeah. 1236 00:50:06,875 --> 00:50:09,085 - Yeah. - And that's scary, you know? Mm-Hmm, 1237 00:50:09,125 --> 00:50:10,125 - . 1238 00:50:10,125 --> 00:50:10,605 Yeah. Because we don't have control, right? 1239 00:50:10,605 --> 00:50:12,045 We don't know , we don't know how to 1240 00:50:12,235 --> 00:50:13,235 - Love. 1241 00:50:13,235 --> 00:50:14,645 Love has very different ideas about how 1242 00:50:14,645 --> 00:50:16,725 to get things done than I do often. 1243 00:50:16,875 --> 00:50:20,645 It's scary. Like in theory, my ideas should be very similar 1244 00:50:20,665 --> 00:50:22,045 to love's Ideas , 1245 00:50:22,045 --> 00:50:23,685 but in practice they're very different. 1246 00:50:23,965 --> 00:50:25,885 . Yeah. Right. That's disturbing to me. 1247 00:50:25,885 --> 00:50:29,885 Like, how could love make that call? It's, you know. 1248 00:50:30,195 --> 00:50:32,645 - Yeah. And that's why I find , I find 1249 00:50:32,645 --> 00:50:34,805 - That I think we can all relate to that as leaders . 1250 00:50:34,945 --> 00:50:36,005 - Yes, absolutely. 1251 00:50:36,425 --> 00:50:38,845 And, uh, I love that part about your story 1252 00:50:38,945 --> 00:50:40,725 and, you know, putting, you know, 1253 00:50:40,725 --> 00:50:42,725 contemplating the perspective of your grandfather 1254 00:50:42,785 --> 00:50:44,445 and your story of, you know, 1255 00:50:44,445 --> 00:50:46,405 there were probably those scary moments of like, 1256 00:50:46,405 --> 00:50:47,445 okay, what's Thomas doing? 1257 00:50:47,545 --> 00:50:49,325 Oh, he's moving overseas. Yeah. 1258 00:50:49,325 --> 00:50:50,645 Like now we've really lost him. 1259 00:50:50,645 --> 00:50:53,245 Like, and when we're scared, that requires faith. 1260 00:50:53,465 --> 00:50:56,805 And to see that long game, that faith that came in there, 1261 00:50:57,385 --> 00:50:58,725 but then it worked. 1262 00:50:58,905 --> 00:51:01,245 But I can see, you know, lots 1263 00:51:01,245 --> 00:51:03,765 of people can look at your journey, be like, no, no, no, no. 1264 00:51:03,885 --> 00:51:06,805 Thomas life was not that did not, that was not 1265 00:51:06,805 --> 00:51:08,325 what you should have done, you know, but it's like, 1266 00:51:08,465 --> 00:51:10,045 but look, like, look at the result. 1267 00:51:10,045 --> 00:51:11,125 Like, look what God has done. 1268 00:51:11,145 --> 00:51:12,525 And, and his queries may 1269 00:51:12,765 --> 00:51:13,885 manifest through that. It's beautiful. 1270 00:51:14,425 --> 00:51:16,285 - And I think, yeah. And I think, you know, 1271 00:51:16,525 --> 00:51:18,205 I think both those perspectives are valid. 1272 00:51:18,325 --> 00:51:20,965 I, I did some things I shouldn't do and Sure. 1273 00:51:20,965 --> 00:51:22,645 And love is so awesome 1274 00:51:22,905 --> 00:51:25,725 and forgiving that, you know, if, if we can reflect 1275 00:51:25,725 --> 00:51:27,365 that just a little bit more to each other. 1276 00:51:27,795 --> 00:51:29,125 Yeah. I think we all end up, 1277 00:51:29,245 --> 00:51:31,525 I think we're all doing better than we fear . 1278 00:51:31,525 --> 00:51:35,445 - Yeah. Yeah. I, I think so. I hope so. That's, 1279 00:51:39,605 --> 00:51:42,245 - I I have, so that's, that's my feeling about it. 1280 00:51:42,585 --> 00:51:46,005 - That's cool. Any other principle concept story that we, 1281 00:51:46,075 --> 00:51:48,965 that you wanna make sure as we consider this, uh, you know, 1282 00:51:48,965 --> 00:51:51,325 this audience of leaders in front of us, uh, anything else 1283 00:51:51,355 --> 00:51:53,365 that comes to mind that we wanna make sure we, 1284 00:51:53,545 --> 00:51:54,765 we share before we wrap up? 1285 00:51:54,765 --> 00:51:55,885 Or what do you think? Well, 1286 00:51:55,955 --> 00:51:58,005 - Same question to you two, Kurt. 1287 00:51:58,065 --> 00:52:00,245 I'm just feeling the richness of the conversation. 1288 00:52:00,445 --> 00:52:02,605 I love the notes you've hit and I love this conversation. 1289 00:52:02,605 --> 00:52:05,245 You're one of, this is one of my, you know, 1290 00:52:05,625 --> 00:52:07,325 unique opportunities to speak 1291 00:52:07,345 --> 00:52:09,685 to a leader about church leadership. 1292 00:52:09,945 --> 00:52:11,845 Mm-Hmm. , I really appreciate it. 1293 00:52:11,885 --> 00:52:14,085 I, I appreciate so much what leadership does 1294 00:52:14,465 --> 00:52:15,845 and how unique the challenges are 1295 00:52:15,855 --> 00:52:17,045 right now in this generation. 1296 00:52:17,045 --> 00:52:19,445 There. I think it's a new order 1297 00:52:19,465 --> 00:52:21,285 of challenge than we've ever seen. 1298 00:52:21,595 --> 00:52:24,365 Yeah. And that comes with a new order of opportunity. 1299 00:52:24,945 --> 00:52:26,885 So it's, it, I feel really blessed 1300 00:52:27,025 --> 00:52:28,645 to just be in the questions with you 1301 00:52:28,645 --> 00:52:30,685 because I, I just feel in my heart right now 1302 00:52:30,745 --> 00:52:33,645 how much I care about these same questions. 1303 00:52:34,065 --> 00:52:36,005 So I'm grateful for your company in that. 1304 00:52:36,315 --> 00:52:37,925 - Awesome. Well, thank you. 1305 00:52:39,005 --> 00:52:41,245 I guess the, well, I, I'll ask one more question, 1306 00:52:41,345 --> 00:52:43,365 but if people do wanna check out the 1307 00:52:43,365 --> 00:52:44,525 book and, and really jump in. 1308 00:52:44,685 --> 00:52:47,445 'cause I mean, we've not even scratched the surface on some 1309 00:52:47,445 --> 00:52:49,125 of the points and principles that, that you talk with. 1310 00:52:49,165 --> 00:52:51,045 I think it's, it's time well spent for people to check out 1311 00:52:51,105 --> 00:52:54,365 and, and, uh, contemplate, uh, yeah. 1312 00:52:54,385 --> 00:52:57,365 The words about this, you know, fullness of human divinity, 1313 00:52:57,855 --> 00:52:59,445 where would you send people or if the people 1314 00:52:59,445 --> 00:53:00,565 wanna learn more about you and 1315 00:53:00,915 --> 00:53:01,915 - Yeah, thank you. 1316 00:53:02,045 --> 00:53:04,725 I mean, I would absolutely send people to DT book. 1317 00:53:05,045 --> 00:53:07,005 I got news from the publisher a few weeks ago 1318 00:53:07,005 --> 00:53:08,885 that Desiree book has picked up at one minute, 1319 00:53:08,885 --> 00:53:11,485 and I'm thrilled because it's, it's a new kind of book, 1320 00:53:12,145 --> 00:53:13,925 you know, like you said at the beginning 1321 00:53:13,925 --> 00:53:17,325 of the conversation, like, Hey, this feels a little woo. 1322 00:53:17,465 --> 00:53:18,725 And, you know, there 1323 00:53:19,025 --> 00:53:22,885 and you know, I agree, it can get confused with that. 1324 00:53:23,265 --> 00:53:27,965 But to me, like it's my authentic expression of 1325 00:53:28,075 --> 00:53:29,445 what Christ's love 1326 00:53:29,625 --> 00:53:32,125 and gospel is doing on the planet right now. 1327 00:53:32,185 --> 00:53:33,685 And I've found this language 1328 00:53:33,785 --> 00:53:37,765 and this approach to be especially resonant with millennial, 1329 00:53:38,305 --> 00:53:42,445 gen z, gen Alpha coming up quick on the heels of Gen Z. 1330 00:53:42,555 --> 00:53:45,725 It's, uh, I found it to be a very powerful 1331 00:53:46,245 --> 00:53:49,845 pastoral toolkit to engage upcoming generations. 1332 00:53:50,065 --> 00:53:52,045 So I would check out Desert Book 1333 00:53:52,045 --> 00:53:55,365 and send them a message like, yeah, this is different, 1334 00:53:55,385 --> 00:53:57,485 but it's good different, and it's helping us do what we do. 1335 00:53:57,915 --> 00:54:00,805 Yeah. I hope that's the case. It has been for me. Awesome. 1336 00:54:01,155 --> 00:54:02,845 - Well, the last question I have for you, 1337 00:54:02,865 --> 00:54:04,685 and maybe I wanna put you in a context 1338 00:54:04,905 --> 00:54:07,645 of if your great grandchildren were listening to this 1339 00:54:07,745 --> 00:54:09,205 and Oh, listen to, to 1340 00:54:09,995 --> 00:54:11,125 - They are McConkey Yes. 1341 00:54:11,265 --> 00:54:12,525 And they're in a meaning in a 1342 00:54:12,525 --> 00:54:13,925 meaningful way. They are. Yeah. 1343 00:54:13,955 --> 00:54:15,765 - Yeah. I mean, and you were to respond 1344 00:54:15,765 --> 00:54:18,525 to the question like, what does at One Mint mean 1345 00:54:18,545 --> 00:54:20,765 to you? How would you respond to that? 1346 00:54:21,385 --> 00:54:25,285 - Oh man, no one. That's such a lovely question. 1347 00:54:25,335 --> 00:54:27,765 Thank you for invoking my, did you say great grandchildren? 1348 00:54:27,995 --> 00:54:29,565 - Yeah, sure. Or great, great or great great 1349 00:54:30,165 --> 00:54:31,165 - . 1350 00:54:31,165 --> 00:54:33,325 Keep going. I mean, that's such a beautiful thing to ask 1351 00:54:33,465 --> 00:54:35,245 and it tunes me into them in a way that I 1352 00:54:35,755 --> 00:54:37,125 haven't tuned into before. 1353 00:54:38,605 --> 00:54:43,415 Love is such that love is so awesome that in love, 1354 00:54:43,765 --> 00:54:45,655 past, present, and future are gathered. 1355 00:54:46,635 --> 00:54:49,135 So when, when we're really in love 1356 00:54:50,075 --> 00:54:52,055 and letting love do love's work, 1357 00:54:52,545 --> 00:54:54,855 everything we've ever loved is already right here. 1358 00:54:55,475 --> 00:54:59,255 The fullness of everything, the fullness of times, 1359 00:54:59,315 --> 00:55:00,655 the fullness of the gospel, the 1360 00:55:00,655 --> 00:55:01,935 fullness of love is right here. 1361 00:55:02,715 --> 00:55:04,215 And we can draw from it. 1362 00:55:04,755 --> 00:55:07,375 We can actually live our way, our lives in a way 1363 00:55:07,375 --> 00:55:10,015 that draws from this inexhaustible source. 1364 00:55:10,835 --> 00:55:13,575 And I believe it's this divine love that's building 1365 00:55:14,145 --> 00:55:16,655 God's kingdom, that's building Zion. 1366 00:55:17,275 --> 00:55:18,375 And somehow, 1367 00:55:19,155 --> 00:55:22,615 and this is hard to believe, like love needs us. 1368 00:55:23,245 --> 00:55:24,855 It's not just that we need to love more 1369 00:55:24,855 --> 00:55:26,975 and we need to love each other as a command. 1370 00:55:26,975 --> 00:55:29,415 It's that love needs us to be love's means. 1371 00:55:29,915 --> 00:55:33,135 And that is a stunning reality in Christ's gospel. 1372 00:55:41,595 --> 00:55:43,535 - Now that we've reached the end of the episode, 1373 00:55:44,015 --> 00:55:45,055 I quickly wanna thank you 1374 00:55:45,075 --> 00:55:46,975 for supporting the Leading Saints podcast. 1375 00:55:47,445 --> 00:55:49,415 There's so much content out there to consider, 1376 00:55:49,435 --> 00:55:50,775 and you picked this one. 1377 00:55:51,155 --> 00:55:53,735 If Leading Saints has made an impact in your life, 1378 00:55:54,075 --> 00:55:55,335 we would sure like 1379 00:55:55,335 --> 00:55:57,935 to hear about it at leading saints.org/contact. 1380 00:55:58,555 --> 00:56:00,095 And if you could quickly text 1381 00:56:00,195 --> 00:56:02,895 or email this episode to a leader, you know, 1382 00:56:03,215 --> 00:56:04,335 I bet it will bless their life. 1383 00:56:04,635 --> 00:56:06,255 You can mark off your good turn daily 1384 00:56:06,515 --> 00:56:07,855 and let's even call it ministering. 1385 00:56:08,125 --> 00:56:10,695 Okay. Maybe not that far, but seriously, thank you. 1386 00:56:11,155 --> 00:56:12,455 And help us share this content. 1387 00:56:13,455 --> 00:56:15,735 Remember, go to leading saints.org/fourteen 1388 00:56:15,995 --> 00:56:17,815 to hear the Packard family's experience 1389 00:56:17,815 --> 00:56:19,455 of when loved ones leave the church. 1390 00:56:29,905 --> 00:56:33,165 - It came as a result of the position of leadership, 1391 00:56:33,175 --> 00:56:36,805 which was imposed upon us by the God of Heaven, 1392 00:56:36,905 --> 00:56:40,325 who brought forth a restoration of the gospel 1393 00:56:40,545 --> 00:56:42,005 of Jesus Christ. 1394 00:56:42,665 --> 00:56:46,245 And when the Declaration was made concerning, the only 1395 00:56:46,345 --> 00:56:47,445 and only true 1396 00:56:47,445 --> 00:56:50,005 and living church upon the face of the earth, 1397 00:56:50,785 --> 00:56:54,165 we were immediately put in a position of loneliness. 1398 00:56:54,385 --> 00:56:57,725 The loneliness of leadership from which we cannot 1399 00:56:58,025 --> 00:56:59,405 shrink nor run away. 1400 00:57:00,505 --> 00:57:04,325 And to which we must face up with boldness and courage 1401 00:57:05,025 --> 00:57:05,645 and ability.