1 00:00:00,095 --> 00:00:00,135 - 2 00:00:03,925 --> 00:00:06,055 - Have you ever had a loved one leave the church 3 00:00:06,275 --> 00:00:08,695 and your relationship becomes awkward. 4 00:00:09,285 --> 00:00:11,455 This is so common and so sad. 5 00:00:12,215 --> 00:00:14,175 I got the chance to interview the Packard family 6 00:00:14,235 --> 00:00:15,575 who have been down this road. 7 00:00:16,065 --> 00:00:18,975 Cindy and Blair Packard are Orthodox believing parents 8 00:00:19,075 --> 00:00:22,455 and Josh, their son and his wife, have left the church. 9 00:00:23,035 --> 00:00:25,175 We came together to discuss their journey, 10 00:00:25,635 --> 00:00:27,455 and it was amazing what they taught. 11 00:00:27,845 --> 00:00:30,215 They talked about the communications they regretted, 12 00:00:30,475 --> 00:00:32,135 and how other siblings responded 13 00:00:32,135 --> 00:00:33,415 in positive and negative ways. 14 00:00:33,765 --> 00:00:35,415 They learned how to pick up the pieces. 15 00:00:35,465 --> 00:00:37,895 Again, expressed love, carry on, 16 00:00:38,195 --> 00:00:39,935 and build a beautiful relationship. 17 00:00:40,605 --> 00:00:42,455 This has become a favorite in the 18 00:00:42,655 --> 00:00:43,895 Questioning Saints Virtual Library. 19 00:00:44,475 --> 00:00:45,935 You can actually gain access 20 00:00:45,995 --> 00:00:48,975 to this interview@leadingsaints.org slash 14. 21 00:00:49,325 --> 00:00:52,335 This will give you 14 days to watch the Packards interview 22 00:00:52,475 --> 00:00:55,575 and many others related to helping individuals who begin 23 00:00:55,575 --> 00:00:56,735 to question their faith. 24 00:00:57,635 --> 00:01:00,775 Go to leading saints.org/fourteen and get access now. 25 00:01:25,595 --> 00:01:27,375 Hey, welcome to the Leading Saints podcast. 26 00:01:27,675 --> 00:01:29,615 Now, for many of you that are brand new, uh, 27 00:01:29,615 --> 00:01:31,735 to Leading Saints, it's important that you know 28 00:01:31,735 --> 00:01:35,575 that Leading Saints is a nonprofit organization, 5 0 1 C3, 29 00:01:36,045 --> 00:01:38,855 dedicated to helping Latterday Saints be 30 00:01:38,855 --> 00:01:40,135 better prepared to lead. 31 00:01:40,155 --> 00:01:42,815 And we do that through content creation. 32 00:01:43,115 --> 00:01:45,295 We get so much positive feedback on the podcast, 33 00:01:45,635 --> 00:01:48,055 our virtual conferences, the articles on our website, 34 00:01:48,715 --> 00:01:51,415 you definitely gotta check it out@leadingsaints.org 35 00:01:51,795 --> 00:01:53,935 and on their homepage@leadingsaints.org, 36 00:01:53,955 --> 00:01:55,935 you can actually find the top six most 37 00:01:55,935 --> 00:01:57,735 downloaded episodes to the podcast. 38 00:01:57,955 --> 00:02:01,055 So if you're new, like the content, want to jump into some 39 00:02:01,055 --> 00:02:02,495 of our most popular episodes? 40 00:02:02,845 --> 00:02:04,935 Head there after you listen to this episode. 41 00:02:05,195 --> 00:02:07,895 The following episode is the throwback episode one 42 00:02:07,895 --> 00:02:09,055 that was published previously 43 00:02:09,195 --> 00:02:11,895 and was extremely popular to see the details 44 00:02:11,915 --> 00:02:13,615 of when this was originally published. 45 00:02:13,795 --> 00:02:16,655 See the show notes. Enjoy this throwback episode. 46 00:02:46,085 --> 00:02:48,175 This episode is on more of a personal note. 47 00:02:48,355 --> 00:02:50,375 We talked with one of my counselors when I was a bishop, 48 00:02:50,665 --> 00:02:52,935 who's now no longer a member of the church. 49 00:02:53,315 --> 00:02:56,055 And so I encourage you to buckle up, listen closely, 50 00:02:56,475 --> 00:02:59,565 and I won't, uh, regurgitate the introduction that we do 51 00:02:59,565 --> 00:03:00,805 during the episode. 52 00:03:00,865 --> 00:03:03,525 But it's definitely a different type of episode 53 00:03:03,525 --> 00:03:06,285 that I generally do, but I feel like it articulates a 54 00:03:06,285 --> 00:03:07,885 crucial part of leadership, 55 00:03:08,145 --> 00:03:10,405 and that is relationships between leaders 56 00:03:10,545 --> 00:03:12,165 and those that doubt in the church 57 00:03:12,425 --> 00:03:14,045 and how we can help them stay. 58 00:03:14,425 --> 00:03:17,245 So here is my interview with Heath Becker. 59 00:03:27,675 --> 00:03:29,605 This is Heath Becker. How are you, Heath? 60 00:03:29,825 --> 00:03:31,165 - I'm doing great. Thanks, - Kurt. Yeah. 61 00:03:31,195 --> 00:03:34,085 Well, Heath and I go, I don't know if I'd say way back, 62 00:03:34,185 --> 00:03:39,045 but in, in the world of the Lee Ward, uh, we, we go back, I 63 00:03:39,565 --> 00:03:41,565 consider Heath a great friend, and he was my 64 00:03:42,115 --> 00:03:44,805 last second counselor when I served as Bishop. 65 00:03:45,425 --> 00:03:47,645 He was one of my counselors when I was, uh, released. 66 00:03:48,225 --> 00:03:51,525 And, uh, this episode I'm sort of just wrestling with where 67 00:03:51,525 --> 00:03:52,965 to start with it a little bit. 68 00:03:53,105 --> 00:03:56,045 But I would say, man, I mean, I 69 00:03:56,815 --> 00:03:57,845 we'll just stick with the facts. 70 00:03:57,845 --> 00:03:59,925 Yeah. So he was my, my second counselor. 71 00:03:59,985 --> 00:04:02,085 And you are no longer a member of the church. 72 00:04:02,235 --> 00:04:04,405 - Yeah, that's right. - And it isn't 73 00:04:04,405 --> 00:04:05,645 because you were excommunicated. 74 00:04:06,365 --> 00:04:07,365 I know. , 75 00:04:08,745 --> 00:04:10,245 but it was, uh, as my, I'm, 76 00:04:10,385 --> 00:04:12,005 you can tell I'm just nervous laughing here. 77 00:04:12,305 --> 00:04:14,405 You had your name removed from the records of the church. 78 00:04:14,595 --> 00:04:16,565 - Yeah. In, uh, in June of this year, 79 00:04:17,185 --> 00:04:18,185 - 2016. 80 00:04:18,185 --> 00:04:19,045 - Yeah, 2016. 81 00:04:19,385 --> 00:04:21,045 My wife and I and our three kids, 82 00:04:21,665 --> 00:04:23,605 we resigned Yeah. From the church. 83 00:04:24,065 --> 00:04:25,685 - And, uh, we're gonna get into that a little bit. 84 00:04:25,685 --> 00:04:27,325 And I first want to, uh, have, 85 00:04:27,475 --> 00:04:30,045 make some clarifications up upfront is one. 86 00:04:30,595 --> 00:04:33,685 This wasn't necessarily my idea though. 87 00:04:33,845 --> 00:04:35,565 I I may be provoked it a little bit. 88 00:04:35,625 --> 00:04:38,285 You know, I'm, I'm not, I don't want to, I didn't go 89 00:04:38,285 --> 00:04:40,285 to your house and say, Hey, you wanna talk about, 90 00:04:40,285 --> 00:04:42,445 let's have an interview about your, your, uh, 91 00:04:42,445 --> 00:04:44,165 experience leaving the church and these things. 92 00:04:44,665 --> 00:04:46,365 But obviously there's a friendship there. 93 00:04:46,425 --> 00:04:49,285 And so it's not like, because you're, you're relationship 94 00:04:49,285 --> 00:04:52,405 with the church ended that, uh, our relationship ended and, 95 00:04:52,405 --> 00:04:53,805 and we were, we weren't just, uh, 96 00:04:53,805 --> 00:04:55,285 friends on a, on a bishop level. 97 00:04:55,405 --> 00:04:57,245 I mean, our families have gone to Disneyland 98 00:04:57,245 --> 00:05:00,165 before with other, uh, mem, uh, other, uh, families 99 00:05:00,165 --> 00:05:01,365 that we served with in our ward. 100 00:05:01,425 --> 00:05:03,645 And, and we live practically next door to each other. 101 00:05:03,705 --> 00:05:05,485 We see each other. Our kids are similar ages. 102 00:05:05,505 --> 00:05:07,285 So it's definitely not just, uh, Hey, 103 00:05:07,285 --> 00:05:08,645 we are in the same calling. 104 00:05:08,785 --> 00:05:10,125 And you seem like a nice guy. 105 00:05:10,245 --> 00:05:12,285 I mean, it, it definitely goes, uh, deeper than that. 106 00:05:12,625 --> 00:05:14,805 It wasn't my, my request, but we've been talking and, 107 00:05:14,805 --> 00:05:16,085 and you've been, you've been helping, 108 00:05:16,385 --> 00:05:19,045 you've been helping us establish this file, all 109 00:05:19,045 --> 00:05:22,365 of our nonprofit 5 0 1 C3 paperwork. Right? 110 00:05:22,475 --> 00:05:23,765 - Yeah. I, you know, I'm an attorney 111 00:05:23,765 --> 00:05:25,725 and I started a nonprofit this year, 112 00:05:25,825 --> 00:05:27,925 and so I'm kind of helping you Yeah. 113 00:05:27,955 --> 00:05:29,445 With this nonprofit paperwork. 114 00:05:29,445 --> 00:05:30,685 - Yeah. And you've been a lifesaver. 115 00:05:30,685 --> 00:05:32,725 You know, I had a, another attorney that was helping me. 116 00:05:32,725 --> 00:05:34,765 He got busy, you know, no fault to him. 117 00:05:34,865 --> 00:05:37,485 He, uh, he just helped me as much as he could. 118 00:05:37,545 --> 00:05:39,685 And I was in need of knowing what to do 119 00:05:39,685 --> 00:05:40,925 to just get this filed so 120 00:05:40,925 --> 00:05:42,485 that we could be recognized as a nonprofit. 121 00:05:42,785 --> 00:05:45,325 And I know that you've recently set up your, uh, 122 00:05:45,325 --> 00:05:48,365 law firm is a nonprofit immigration law, law firm. 123 00:05:48,505 --> 00:05:51,685 And so you were more than happy to, to show me through this 124 00:05:52,025 --> 00:05:54,205 or walk me through this and help me figure out how to do it. 125 00:05:54,205 --> 00:05:56,325 And so I can't thank you enough for doing that. 126 00:05:56,465 --> 00:05:58,205 But, but during that process, you know, 127 00:05:58,205 --> 00:05:59,605 we've gotten a lunch a lot together 128 00:05:59,625 --> 00:06:00,925 and just talked, uh, some things 129 00:06:00,925 --> 00:06:02,205 through about your experience. 130 00:06:02,585 --> 00:06:04,525 And so, and, and I think we, you listened 131 00:06:04,525 --> 00:06:05,565 to various podcasts. 132 00:06:05,595 --> 00:06:08,125 Yeah. And we were talking about your experience. 133 00:06:08,145 --> 00:06:09,725 And I think at one point you said, Hey, 134 00:06:09,725 --> 00:06:11,725 you can interview me, sort of jokingly. 135 00:06:11,745 --> 00:06:14,205 And I said, Hey, man, I would totally love that. 136 00:06:14,325 --> 00:06:17,165 'cause the conversations we have are so insightful, 137 00:06:17,255 --> 00:06:18,325 especially for me. 138 00:06:18,525 --> 00:06:20,245 I think you've benefited from 'em 139 00:06:20,345 --> 00:06:22,645 and, uh, just, you know, as two friends talking. So, 140 00:06:22,755 --> 00:06:23,755 - Yeah. 141 00:06:23,755 --> 00:06:25,285 You know, and I, I thought this might be a good idea too, 142 00:06:25,285 --> 00:06:26,405 because, you know, 143 00:06:26,405 --> 00:06:28,005 we left the church about three months ago. 144 00:06:28,585 --> 00:06:29,965 We stopped going to church, 145 00:06:30,145 --> 00:06:31,205 you know, a few months before that. 146 00:06:31,265 --> 00:06:34,285 And it's just, you know, we've been completely open about it 147 00:06:34,395 --> 00:06:36,205 with like, family and friends and stuff, 148 00:06:36,305 --> 00:06:38,405 and, you know, we haven't tried to hide anything. 149 00:06:38,465 --> 00:06:39,485 And it's just, 150 00:06:39,945 --> 00:06:42,485 but nobody, like, nobody wants to like, talk 151 00:06:42,485 --> 00:06:43,725 to us about it, you know, like, yeah. 152 00:06:43,985 --> 00:06:45,485 - So it's like the big elephant in the room, 153 00:06:45,585 --> 00:06:46,765 and it's like, Hey, like, 154 00:06:46,765 --> 00:06:48,765 let's talk about anything but that. Right? Yeah, 155 00:06:48,765 --> 00:06:49,765 - Exactly. 156 00:06:49,765 --> 00:06:51,765 So I guess, you know, maybe like we had the expectation 157 00:06:51,765 --> 00:06:54,845 that maybe some people would maybe like ask us about it, 158 00:06:54,845 --> 00:06:56,445 you know, or wanna know like, why, 159 00:06:56,545 --> 00:06:58,525 or, you know, like, what's going on? 160 00:06:58,585 --> 00:07:00,845 Or, you know, but really, like, 161 00:07:00,995 --> 00:07:02,365 it's like, okay, you resigned. 162 00:07:02,395 --> 00:07:03,525 Okay. You know? Yeah. 163 00:07:03,625 --> 00:07:05,405 It just, there's been a few like, you know, 164 00:07:05,405 --> 00:07:06,805 very short conversations about it, 165 00:07:07,185 --> 00:07:08,485 but that, you know, like, not like, 166 00:07:08,945 --> 00:07:10,925 so I thought maybe this might be a good way, 167 00:07:11,385 --> 00:07:12,605 you know, to talk about it. 168 00:07:12,605 --> 00:07:15,005 And, and then maybe like a way for like, people that know me 169 00:07:15,005 --> 00:07:16,565 and my wife and, and our kids, 170 00:07:16,595 --> 00:07:19,445 like they could hear the story without having to, you know, 171 00:07:19,445 --> 00:07:20,485 it's an awkward conversation. 172 00:07:20,485 --> 00:07:22,085 Yeah. And it's something difficult to talk 173 00:07:22,085 --> 00:07:23,085 - About. 174 00:07:23,085 --> 00:07:24,325 And I'm the lucky one that gets to have it this gray heath. 175 00:07:24,545 --> 00:07:26,845 No, just kidding. And another thing I want to want, 176 00:07:26,845 --> 00:07:27,845 another point I want to make 177 00:07:27,845 --> 00:07:30,285 before we really dig into this is this isn't meant 178 00:07:30,285 --> 00:07:33,205 to be like a, a recorded counseling session. 179 00:07:33,385 --> 00:07:35,245 I'm not trying to counsel you, uh, 180 00:07:35,245 --> 00:07:36,805 you're not necessarily trying to counsel me. 181 00:07:36,975 --> 00:07:38,845 We're not trying to fix anything. Yeah. 182 00:07:38,845 --> 00:07:40,085 We're not hoping by the end of this 183 00:07:40,085 --> 00:07:41,965 that we change one another's minds. 184 00:07:42,305 --> 00:07:44,765 Um, and I think the one unique thing about this is 185 00:07:44,765 --> 00:07:49,215 that you're not, at least I haven't filled felt a whole, uh, 186 00:07:49,245 --> 00:07:52,055 that much, if any of bitterness from you 187 00:07:52,075 --> 00:07:53,455 as far as towards the church. 188 00:07:53,475 --> 00:07:55,775 You know, you're not like, like some people will leave the 189 00:07:55,775 --> 00:07:56,935 church and be like, all right, let's go 190 00:07:56,935 --> 00:07:57,975 burn it down, type thing. 191 00:07:57,975 --> 00:08:00,335 You know, like, yeah. What they're doing is horrible. What? 192 00:08:00,675 --> 00:08:02,615 And, and I've never felt that, you know? 193 00:08:02,615 --> 00:08:03,695 And so, and I think that goes into, 194 00:08:03,695 --> 00:08:04,775 and we'll get into the story of that, 195 00:08:04,775 --> 00:08:06,215 but, so one, uh, 196 00:08:06,215 --> 00:08:09,095 this isn't something I'm just chasing people down who have, 197 00:08:09,115 --> 00:08:11,495 uh, resigned from the church and trying to interview them. 198 00:08:11,835 --> 00:08:12,855 Uh, one, we're friends. 199 00:08:13,075 --> 00:08:16,095 Uh, two, I've, I've gained so much from our conversations, 200 00:08:16,095 --> 00:08:18,175 I've learned so much about myself as a leader. 201 00:08:18,275 --> 00:08:21,735 So if anything, this is not necessarily an analysis of you 202 00:08:21,735 --> 00:08:24,375 and your situation, but analysis of my situation 203 00:08:24,375 --> 00:08:25,655 as a leader, um, 204 00:08:25,695 --> 00:08:28,535 obviously leading LDS being a leadership podcast, I hope 205 00:08:28,535 --> 00:08:30,095 that individuals that listen 206 00:08:30,095 --> 00:08:31,775 to this are obviously mainly leaders. 207 00:08:32,155 --> 00:08:34,495 And that they walk away from this thinking, Hmm, 208 00:08:34,535 --> 00:08:36,855 I wonder if there's somebody like Heath in my ward, 209 00:08:36,875 --> 00:08:38,495 and how can I reach out to them and help them? 210 00:08:39,035 --> 00:08:42,865 Um, and the thing is, they, they, as I think about this is, 211 00:08:43,065 --> 00:08:45,385 I don't necessarily feel like I'm a horrible leader. 212 00:08:45,765 --> 00:08:47,225 And again, it's not my fault. 213 00:08:48,425 --> 00:08:50,345 I had, you know, it's not that I didn't, 214 00:08:50,425 --> 00:08:51,465 I should have done this, and, 215 00:08:51,685 --> 00:08:52,905 you know, you would've never left. 216 00:08:52,925 --> 00:08:54,625 Or I should have done that, and I could have, 217 00:08:54,765 --> 00:08:56,485 you know, sent you a different direction. 218 00:08:56,485 --> 00:08:58,285 But nonetheless, I learned things as far as 219 00:08:58,285 --> 00:09:00,085 how I perceive individuals in my ward, 220 00:09:00,315 --> 00:09:01,885 what they're struggling with and so forth. 221 00:09:01,985 --> 00:09:03,285 But, so let's just go back 222 00:09:03,285 --> 00:09:05,205 and maybe build some context around your story. 223 00:09:05,405 --> 00:09:07,965 'cause you, you have sort of unique story, a unique story 224 00:09:07,985 --> 00:09:09,645 as it is when you weren't raised in the 225 00:09:09,645 --> 00:09:11,445 traditional, uh, Mormon family. 226 00:09:11,445 --> 00:09:13,205 Maybe you give us in five minutes, kinda 227 00:09:13,445 --> 00:09:14,645 that background of your upbringing. 228 00:09:15,675 --> 00:09:19,925 - Yeah. I mean, you, my family are, are LDS, you know, 229 00:09:19,935 --> 00:09:21,725 going back a long ways, well, at least, 230 00:09:21,985 --> 00:09:23,085 you know, on my mom's side. 231 00:09:23,185 --> 00:09:27,085 But I was, um, raised like kind of halftime with my mom, 232 00:09:27,085 --> 00:09:28,165 halftime with my grandparents. 233 00:09:28,285 --> 00:09:29,725 I spent eight years with my grandparents. 234 00:09:30,585 --> 00:09:33,005 Um, and, and they were LDS, um, 235 00:09:33,955 --> 00:09:35,335 - And this was in Missouri, right? Yeah. 236 00:09:35,375 --> 00:09:38,135 - I grew up in Missouri. Um, my, you know, my mom, like, 237 00:09:38,155 --> 00:09:40,215 pretty much the entire time I was growing up, like, 238 00:09:40,295 --> 00:09:42,735 I think she was, you know, she didn't go to church. 239 00:09:43,155 --> 00:09:45,495 She started going to church when I was on my mission. Hmm. 240 00:09:45,675 --> 00:09:48,015 Um, but my grandparents were, were pretty active. 241 00:09:48,395 --> 00:09:52,255 Um, and me personally, I started going to church, um, 242 00:09:52,795 --> 00:09:54,615 you know, consistently on a regular basis 243 00:09:54,615 --> 00:09:55,895 when I was a junior in high school. 244 00:09:56,675 --> 00:09:59,215 Uh, I was living with my grandparents and, uh, 245 00:10:00,775 --> 00:10:04,235 and you know, like, um, I started dating a LDS girl 246 00:10:04,335 --> 00:10:05,555 and I started going to church, 247 00:10:05,615 --> 00:10:07,515 and then I started going to early morning seminary 248 00:10:07,515 --> 00:10:10,075 and, um, hanging out with the missionaries a lot. 249 00:10:10,175 --> 00:10:12,115 And, you know, it, it was, 250 00:10:12,175 --> 00:10:14,635 it was a great support network and great friends. 251 00:10:14,735 --> 00:10:17,155 And, you know, then it made me wanna serve a mission. 252 00:10:17,215 --> 00:10:19,195 And I served a mission after high school, 253 00:10:19,215 --> 00:10:21,225 and I went to Ecuador. Um, 254 00:10:21,725 --> 00:10:22,865 - And obviously learned Spanish. 255 00:10:22,925 --> 00:10:24,585 And that Spanish has blessed you in your career. Yeah. 256 00:10:24,585 --> 00:10:27,465 As an immigration attorney. You, you used it every day. 257 00:10:27,535 --> 00:10:31,425 - Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah. The, I, exactly. 258 00:10:31,765 --> 00:10:34,425 So, you know, Mormonism has definitely, you know, 259 00:10:34,425 --> 00:10:35,625 shaped my life and who I am. 260 00:10:35,625 --> 00:10:37,065 Yeah. And, and, and my family. 261 00:10:37,125 --> 00:10:39,145 And I went to undergrad at BYU Idaho, 262 00:10:39,405 --> 00:10:41,345 and I went to law school at BYU Law school, 263 00:10:41,925 --> 00:10:43,425 - You know, as, as you were serving 264 00:10:43,525 --> 00:10:46,785 as my counselor near the end of being released, it sort of, 265 00:10:47,455 --> 00:10:49,555 we had some conversations that sort of brought this 266 00:10:49,555 --> 00:10:53,595 to the surface that you had been, um, you'd been struggling 267 00:10:53,615 --> 00:10:56,035 for a while as far as, you know, the testimony goes, 268 00:10:56,035 --> 00:10:58,675 and I'm gonna use all the cliches that maybe don't, 269 00:10:58,975 --> 00:11:00,795 you know, I don't mean to put you in a certain box 270 00:11:00,795 --> 00:11:05,175 or whatever, but, um, you know, there's some concerns 271 00:11:05,175 --> 00:11:06,855 with the, the history of the church. 272 00:11:06,855 --> 00:11:09,655 Yeah. Would you say that that categorizes 273 00:11:09,655 --> 00:11:10,775 it well, broadly enough? 274 00:11:11,115 --> 00:11:13,655 Um, and that started in law school, right? 275 00:11:13,965 --> 00:11:16,255 - Well, you know, really it started, um, 276 00:11:16,285 --> 00:11:19,255 when I was an undergrad, um, about like 10 years ago, 277 00:11:19,335 --> 00:11:20,655 I think, like around 2006. 278 00:11:21,435 --> 00:11:24,135 Um, my father-in-Law gave me the book Rough Stone Rolling. 279 00:11:25,115 --> 00:11:29,335 Um, and, you know, I read, um, probably more than half 280 00:11:29,335 --> 00:11:30,855 of it, and I just like closed it 281 00:11:30,875 --> 00:11:34,045 and I had to like, not look at it anymore. 282 00:11:34,285 --> 00:11:38,035 'cause it was just bringing up so many things that, um, it, 283 00:11:38,055 --> 00:11:41,195 it was just, it wasn't the narrative, you know, that, um, 284 00:11:41,765 --> 00:11:43,575 that I knew about church history. 285 00:11:44,635 --> 00:11:47,335 Um, but then, you know, like I, I kind of, you know, 286 00:11:47,335 --> 00:11:49,615 they say the shelf, so I kind of just put it on the shelf. 287 00:11:49,635 --> 00:11:53,565 But then in law school, I took a class, um, since I went 288 00:11:53,565 --> 00:11:56,045 to BYU law school, there was a class on Joseph Smith in the 289 00:11:56,045 --> 00:11:59,795 law and kind of like, um, his legal battles, um, 290 00:11:59,905 --> 00:12:02,595 with like the Kirtland Safety Society and Mm-Hmm. 291 00:12:02,635 --> 00:12:04,875 , um, some things touching on like, uh, 292 00:12:05,075 --> 00:12:06,395 polygamy and, and some other things. 293 00:12:06,415 --> 00:12:08,475 So I took a whole class on Joseph Smith Mm-Hmm. 294 00:12:08,515 --> 00:12:10,875 . And, you know, lawsuits, trials, um, 295 00:12:11,215 --> 00:12:13,835 you know, it, it all kind of related back to the law. 296 00:12:13,855 --> 00:12:15,955 But, um, but yeah, there was some things 297 00:12:15,955 --> 00:12:17,315 that like were discussed in that class 298 00:12:17,315 --> 00:12:19,035 that I just had never heard before. 299 00:12:19,095 --> 00:12:20,515 And yeah, to me were shocking. 300 00:12:20,615 --> 00:12:23,195 And so those were other things that I kind of, you know, 301 00:12:24,115 --> 00:12:25,935 put on the shelf and, and tried not to think about. 302 00:12:26,205 --> 00:12:28,495 - Yeah. And those listening that may not be familiar with, 303 00:12:28,495 --> 00:12:30,975 uh, ref Stone Rolling, uh, it is a, 304 00:12:31,135 --> 00:12:33,735 a biography about Joseph Smith, written by Richard Bushman, 305 00:12:33,735 --> 00:12:36,135 who's probably the scholar on Joseph Smith. 306 00:12:36,135 --> 00:12:37,415 And he's a, he's a patriarch. 307 00:12:37,415 --> 00:12:39,815 This isn't like some, um, out, you know, 308 00:12:40,005 --> 00:12:42,215 outlier third party book that's written 309 00:12:42,215 --> 00:12:43,615 by somebody bitter towards the church. 310 00:12:43,615 --> 00:12:46,055 This is a historic book that is very historic. 311 00:12:46,115 --> 00:12:49,015 And, um, and so you do go into some of those details 312 00:12:49,015 --> 00:12:51,415 of Joseph Smith that, you know, weren't taught in primary 313 00:12:51,635 --> 00:12:53,575 or, or young men's young women's Yeah. 314 00:12:53,595 --> 00:12:56,295 - And, you know, and it's written by, um, like an active, 315 00:12:56,735 --> 00:12:58,455 faithful, believing member of the church. 316 00:12:58,515 --> 00:13:00,615 So it's not like anti-Mormon literature. 317 00:13:00,615 --> 00:13:02,935 - Yeah. And so it is not that you got, you know, 318 00:13:02,935 --> 00:13:04,455 engulfed in this literature 319 00:13:04,455 --> 00:13:06,175 that just wasn't seeing things right, 320 00:13:06,275 --> 00:13:07,655 or they were twisting the truth. 321 00:13:07,715 --> 00:13:10,735 You know, it was a, it's a strong historic book that, um, 322 00:13:10,915 --> 00:13:12,335 you know, that I, 323 00:13:12,495 --> 00:13:14,815 I would have no hesitation recommending the individuals. 324 00:13:14,815 --> 00:13:15,855 And I think, uh, I'm sure a lot 325 00:13:15,855 --> 00:13:17,615 of listeners have read it and found it. 326 00:13:17,635 --> 00:13:21,015 Uh, you know, there's a faith promoting as, uh, you know, 327 00:13:21,015 --> 00:13:23,695 helping you re-analyze your faith as well as far as 328 00:13:23,695 --> 00:13:25,735 how you built your faith in your testimony. Yeah. 329 00:13:25,735 --> 00:13:27,735 - Other people that have read it have told me like, oh, 330 00:13:27,915 --> 00:13:29,615 you know, that strengthened their testimony, 331 00:13:30,035 --> 00:13:31,615 but for me, it didn't, you know? 332 00:13:31,955 --> 00:13:34,815 - And would you say that was sort of the, the, the beginning 333 00:13:34,835 --> 00:13:37,215 of sort of, uh, these questions and, 334 00:13:37,515 --> 00:13:39,415 and, uh, re-analyzing your testimony? 335 00:13:39,445 --> 00:13:41,095 - Yeah, absolutely. You know, before, 336 00:13:41,155 --> 00:13:42,695 before I read that book, I, like, 337 00:13:42,695 --> 00:13:45,775 I don't think I'd ever doubted, ever, you know, 338 00:13:45,825 --> 00:13:47,695 about Joseph Smith or the church, 339 00:13:47,755 --> 00:13:49,415 or, you know, the church leaders. Yeah. 340 00:13:49,635 --> 00:13:51,775 - So you go through that class, and then, uh, 341 00:13:51,835 --> 00:13:52,895 you graduate law school 342 00:13:53,575 --> 00:13:54,575 - December, 2011. Yeah. 343 00:13:54,575 --> 00:13:55,695 - Okay. This in 2011. 344 00:13:55,695 --> 00:13:57,695 And at this point, you, you had been, you were married 345 00:13:57,695 --> 00:13:59,975 before, uh, law school, right? 346 00:14:00,045 --> 00:14:01,975 - Yeah, I got married in 2004. Okay. 347 00:14:02,355 --> 00:14:05,055 - And so you graduate law school, then you go off 348 00:14:05,055 --> 00:14:06,895 and start your career in law, and, and 349 00:14:06,895 --> 00:14:09,695 after that point, I mean, it's not like you sort of, 350 00:14:09,695 --> 00:14:11,135 you put it on the shelf at that point. 351 00:14:11,245 --> 00:14:13,735 - Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's not, I mean, I never, 352 00:14:13,795 --> 00:14:15,375 it never crossed my mind, you know, like, 353 00:14:15,375 --> 00:14:16,415 stop going to church or anything. 354 00:14:16,415 --> 00:14:18,375 It just, it was kind of one of those things where it's like, 355 00:14:18,375 --> 00:14:21,815 well, um, I guess we'll, we'll find out, you know, 356 00:14:21,815 --> 00:14:23,615 after this life, what those answers are. 357 00:14:24,035 --> 00:14:25,575 - So from there, you sort of, it's on the shelf. 358 00:14:25,595 --> 00:14:28,095 And then when did that shelf start to, uh, break down? 359 00:14:28,445 --> 00:14:31,255 When, when was the next, I mean, you really had to reanalyze 360 00:14:31,255 --> 00:14:32,815 and take a hard look at things again. 361 00:14:33,115 --> 00:14:36,375 - So, you know, um, after law school, I, I moved a, 362 00:14:36,375 --> 00:14:39,495 I got a job in Salt Lake City, um, at a nonprofit, um, 363 00:14:39,595 --> 00:14:40,775 as an immigration attorney. 364 00:14:41,555 --> 00:14:42,975 And I moved into the Lee Ward. 365 00:14:43,635 --> 00:14:46,695 And, um, you know, I was, I was, uh, 366 00:14:46,695 --> 00:14:48,455 after, I don't know, like maybe a year or so 367 00:14:48,455 --> 00:14:50,775 or whatever, I was called as the elders current president. 368 00:14:50,775 --> 00:14:53,165 Yeah. You know, that, I guess that was, you know, 369 00:14:53,165 --> 00:14:54,165 it was a leadership calling. 370 00:14:54,505 --> 00:14:56,725 Um, you, you know, like, 371 00:14:56,825 --> 00:14:57,885 - And that was really your first 372 00:14:58,485 --> 00:14:59,645 official leadership calling, right? 373 00:14:59,755 --> 00:15:01,725 - Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, like, I, 374 00:15:01,845 --> 00:15:03,645 I had taught in like Sunday school 375 00:15:03,745 --> 00:15:05,485 or like priesthood lessons and stuff before, 376 00:15:05,545 --> 00:15:07,685 but, um, now like a leader, you know, 377 00:15:07,785 --> 00:15:12,285 and so I felt like, um, yeah, you, 378 00:15:12,525 --> 00:15:14,085 I just felt like, you know, like a leader needs 379 00:15:14,085 --> 00:15:15,085 to have a strong testimony. 380 00:15:15,085 --> 00:15:16,205 Like they can't have doubts. 381 00:15:16,385 --> 00:15:20,605 Um, and so like really it became my goal to like kind 382 00:15:20,605 --> 00:15:23,445 of extinguish all doubts, um, and, 383 00:15:23,445 --> 00:15:27,885 and just like have like a, I don't know how to describe it, 384 00:15:27,885 --> 00:15:31,895 just like a unbreakable testimony kind of thing, you know, 385 00:15:31,895 --> 00:15:33,735 like strengthen my testimony, like get, get rid 386 00:15:33,735 --> 00:15:35,855 of any lingering doubts or anything that I had in my mind. 387 00:15:35,855 --> 00:15:38,335 And, and so that was my mission, you know? Um, 388 00:15:38,875 --> 00:15:40,495 - So it seems like was that call, 389 00:15:40,495 --> 00:15:42,015 and I remember when, uh, you, you know, 390 00:15:42,055 --> 00:15:44,055 I submitted your name to the state presidency, you had 391 00:15:44,055 --> 00:15:46,255 to be the elders quo president, so that for you, you just, 392 00:15:46,435 --> 00:15:47,895 you sort of had to go back to the shelf 393 00:15:47,895 --> 00:15:50,055 and you had to say, if I'm gonna be a leader in this church, 394 00:15:50,235 --> 00:15:51,855 I'm going to have to get rid of the shelf. 395 00:15:52,025 --> 00:15:53,975 Right? Yeah. Whether that was right or wrong. 396 00:15:54,035 --> 00:15:57,975 And, and as we go through this, it, again, this isn't some, 397 00:15:58,025 --> 00:16:00,055 we're just telling the story whether I'm right 398 00:16:00,055 --> 00:16:01,055 or wrong, whether you're right or wrong 399 00:16:01,055 --> 00:16:02,335 doesn't matter. Yeah. This is your story. 400 00:16:02,635 --> 00:16:04,815 - And, and I would say like, you know, I, like, even today, 401 00:16:04,815 --> 00:16:07,735 like, I mean, I, I don't claim to know any of the answers, 402 00:16:08,475 --> 00:16:10,095 you know, like I, I still don't know 403 00:16:10,095 --> 00:16:11,615 what the answers are. Um, 404 00:16:11,965 --> 00:16:12,965 - Yeah. 405 00:16:12,965 --> 00:16:14,175 And this is what the part, and we'll maybe get to it, 406 00:16:14,175 --> 00:16:15,455 that was as we talked 407 00:16:15,455 --> 00:16:18,495 after, um, you resigned from the church that really, 408 00:16:19,525 --> 00:16:23,335 that really surprised me is it wasn't a, it wasn't 409 00:16:23,335 --> 00:16:27,415 that you had now, um, arrive to a determination. 410 00:16:27,675 --> 00:16:29,175 You now have the answers. And I'm, 411 00:16:29,175 --> 00:16:31,175 and it's not in the church, it's out of the church. 412 00:16:31,695 --> 00:16:33,735 - I, and I don't know if we're like jumping too far ahead 413 00:16:33,735 --> 00:16:37,815 here, but really, like, um, the decision to resign was 414 00:16:37,815 --> 00:16:41,845 because, um, it just, I don't know, 415 00:16:41,845 --> 00:16:43,325 like may maybe why I need, maybe we need 416 00:16:43,325 --> 00:16:44,685 to talk more about the backstory, 417 00:16:44,745 --> 00:16:47,765 but like, you know, like, so I was Elders Quorum president, 418 00:16:47,945 --> 00:16:51,125 um, really trying to just like, figure out, um, 419 00:16:51,425 --> 00:16:52,565 you know, grow my testimony. 420 00:16:52,585 --> 00:16:55,925 So every prayer, um, every day became, you know, part 421 00:16:55,925 --> 00:16:58,765 of it is like, help me, um, to not doubt 422 00:16:58,785 --> 00:17:01,005 and help me to strengthen my testimony and, 423 00:17:01,105 --> 00:17:03,925 and to know without a doubt that, that the church is true. 424 00:17:04,305 --> 00:17:05,965 And it, you know, it never crossed my 425 00:17:05,965 --> 00:17:07,045 mind that the church wasn't true. 426 00:17:07,795 --> 00:17:09,645 It's just, I, you know, I knew 427 00:17:09,645 --> 00:17:12,565 that I didn't have like this super, you know, like 428 00:17:13,255 --> 00:17:15,645 unwavering No, without a shot of a doubt testimony 429 00:17:15,645 --> 00:17:17,325 that I wanted to have, but I 430 00:17:17,325 --> 00:17:18,845 never thought like it wasn't true. Yeah. 431 00:17:18,875 --> 00:17:21,125 - Because in your mind, uh, being a leader in the church, 432 00:17:21,355 --> 00:17:23,125 leaders in the church don't have that shelf. 433 00:17:23,435 --> 00:17:26,085 Yeah. It's, and if they do, it's empty, right? Yeah. 434 00:17:26,385 --> 00:17:28,725 And so now, now I'm a leader in the church, 435 00:17:28,725 --> 00:17:29,805 and so I need to get rid 436 00:17:29,805 --> 00:17:31,445 of the shelf in order to be an effective leader. 437 00:17:31,655 --> 00:17:33,325 - Right? Yeah. And, and really, I mean, 438 00:17:33,325 --> 00:17:36,285 like when I got called into the Bishop Rick as the, 439 00:17:36,385 --> 00:17:39,285 the second counselor, it, it was basically the same thing, 440 00:17:39,585 --> 00:17:41,615 but just intensified, you know, 441 00:17:41,615 --> 00:17:45,215 because like, you gotta, um, you know, every, you know, 442 00:17:45,215 --> 00:17:47,575 on a regular basis kind of like direct, um, 443 00:17:47,645 --> 00:17:50,935 sacrament meeting, um, you have 444 00:17:50,935 --> 00:17:52,935 to like bear your testimony in sacrament meeting Yeah. 445 00:17:53,115 --> 00:17:54,415 - During fast and testimony meeting, 446 00:17:54,415 --> 00:17:55,415 - Right? 447 00:17:55,415 --> 00:17:56,415 Yeah, exactly. When you're conducting those meetings. 448 00:17:56,875 --> 00:17:59,695 Um, and then like, more than that, just like when you go 449 00:17:59,695 --> 00:18:02,455 to Sunday school or like, you know, you're attending like, 450 00:18:02,595 --> 00:18:04,695 um, you know, the priesthood meeting 451 00:18:04,695 --> 00:18:06,695 or something, like, people, people will look to you, 452 00:18:06,755 --> 00:18:09,535 you know, like when there's like questions in the class, 453 00:18:09,535 --> 00:18:11,095 like, oh, well, what do you think Brother Becker? 454 00:18:11,095 --> 00:18:12,375 You know, you're, remember the bishoprick? 455 00:18:12,375 --> 00:18:13,735 Like, you're supposed to know the answers. 456 00:18:13,735 --> 00:18:15,535 You're supposed to, like, you know, 457 00:18:15,535 --> 00:18:16,895 like be a spiritual leader and, 458 00:18:16,915 --> 00:18:18,895 and have like real insightful things to say. 459 00:18:18,955 --> 00:18:23,615 And, um, it just, I just, you know, like, 460 00:18:23,615 --> 00:18:26,815 it just, I, I, I got to the point when, 461 00:18:26,845 --> 00:18:28,935 when I was in the bishop, and I wasn't in the Bishoprick 462 00:18:28,935 --> 00:18:31,455 for more than a year, I think like total, it was maybe, 463 00:18:31,655 --> 00:18:32,655 - I think it was about a year, but 464 00:18:32,655 --> 00:18:33,545 - About a year. 465 00:18:33,545 --> 00:18:37,655 Okay. But like, it just, it got, it just got increasingly 466 00:18:37,665 --> 00:18:41,335 where like, I, um, I didn't, you know, 467 00:18:41,495 --> 00:18:42,695 I didn't think the church wasn't true, 468 00:18:43,195 --> 00:18:45,415 but like, I, I got to the point where I, like, 469 00:18:45,455 --> 00:18:47,975 I couldn't say that I knew that Joseph Smith was a prophet. 470 00:18:49,005 --> 00:18:50,025 And, and I, you know, 471 00:18:50,915 --> 00:18:53,575 - And that in your mind, that just didn't line up with 472 00:18:54,405 --> 00:18:56,385 how a leader's supposed to lead in the church. 473 00:18:56,455 --> 00:18:58,825 - Exactly. So, like, when I would like bear my testimony 474 00:18:58,885 --> 00:19:01,145 and I, it would only be Christ, I thought like, come man, 475 00:19:01,145 --> 00:19:03,265 people are gonna be like, you know, I, 476 00:19:03,405 --> 00:19:05,505 it was just like these unfounded fears, I think, you know, 477 00:19:05,505 --> 00:19:07,905 like, people were gonna think like, well, how, you know? 478 00:19:07,975 --> 00:19:09,585 Yeah. It's, that's a weak testimony. 479 00:19:09,645 --> 00:19:11,825 But like, it was just, it, you know, just 'cause, 480 00:19:12,485 --> 00:19:13,825 but I just, I don't know. 481 00:19:13,905 --> 00:19:15,345 I just couldn't say, you know, like 482 00:19:15,345 --> 00:19:17,385 that I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet. Yeah. 483 00:19:17,725 --> 00:19:19,785 - And this is such an interesting concept of, 484 00:19:20,245 --> 00:19:22,305 of church culture that comes up 485 00:19:22,305 --> 00:19:26,735 because, you know, we we're coming upon a general conference 486 00:19:26,795 --> 00:19:29,375 and, uh, you know, we're gonna hear some incredible talks, 487 00:19:29,375 --> 00:19:30,575 some incredible testimonies. 488 00:19:30,595 --> 00:19:34,575 And man, you look at somebody like Elder Holland, uh, 489 00:19:34,915 --> 00:19:36,175 you know, president Udo, 490 00:19:36,195 --> 00:19:39,215 and you just know you, you know, that they know, you know, 491 00:19:39,215 --> 00:19:41,615 they're not, not once have I felt like, oh, come on. 492 00:19:41,615 --> 00:19:43,895 Like, you're kind of, uh, going overboard there. 493 00:19:43,895 --> 00:19:46,415 They're, you know, they always seem sincere. Yeah. 494 00:19:46,555 --> 00:19:49,135 And so, and we idolize these individuals Yeah. 495 00:19:49,185 --> 00:19:51,415 Which, which we should. They're incredible leaders, right? 496 00:19:51,685 --> 00:19:54,655 Yeah. Um, I mean, not idolize in the, in the, 497 00:19:54,655 --> 00:19:55,935 the wrong fashion, but you know what I mean? 498 00:19:56,235 --> 00:19:57,695 And, uh, and, 499 00:19:57,695 --> 00:20:00,215 and we wanna be that leader that can stand and testify. 500 00:20:00,445 --> 00:20:04,895 - Yeah. - But sometimes if, if we create a culture 501 00:20:05,205 --> 00:20:08,935 that only leaders, the only effective leaders are the ones 502 00:20:08,935 --> 00:20:10,415 with the testimony that can do that, 503 00:20:10,895 --> 00:20:12,295 I think we're sort of hurting ourselves. 504 00:20:12,305 --> 00:20:13,775 We're making it very, uh, 505 00:20:13,775 --> 00:20:15,335 and we're not making, we're making the tent 506 00:20:15,335 --> 00:20:16,495 even smaller. Yeah. 507 00:20:16,515 --> 00:20:18,095 - And, and I don't think like you were creating 508 00:20:18,095 --> 00:20:20,015 that culture, but like right. 509 00:20:20,315 --> 00:20:21,975 As, as you're mentioning that, like, I, 510 00:20:22,115 --> 00:20:23,535 I'm having this flashback to one 511 00:20:23,535 --> 00:20:24,615 of our Bishop Prick meetings. 512 00:20:25,075 --> 00:20:27,015 Um, and like you would played a clip 513 00:20:27,075 --> 00:20:28,695 and it was a great clip, like, you know, 514 00:20:28,695 --> 00:20:31,495 but it was Elder Holland giving a talk about, you know, 515 00:20:31,815 --> 00:20:35,165 testimony and how like, we shouldn't have like a weak, 516 00:20:35,265 --> 00:20:36,885 you know, testimony, but it should be a testimony 517 00:20:36,885 --> 00:20:38,885 where people could like, kind of like warm their hands 518 00:20:39,425 --> 00:20:40,885 by the fire of our testimony. 519 00:20:41,705 --> 00:20:43,405 Um, I wanted that. 520 00:20:43,405 --> 00:20:45,405 Like, I, I thought, like I needed to have that. 521 00:20:45,405 --> 00:20:48,805 Like, if I'm gonna, if I'm gonna be a leader, like I need 522 00:20:48,805 --> 00:20:51,085 to have that testimony that Elder Holland was talking about. 523 00:20:51,765 --> 00:20:53,385 Um, and, and, and I've told you this, 524 00:20:53,405 --> 00:20:58,265 but I, um, you know, like I, I fasted, um, you know, 525 00:20:58,265 --> 00:21:01,025 on a regular basis to increase my testimony to know 526 00:21:01,025 --> 00:21:02,025 that Joseph Smith was a prophet. 527 00:21:02,525 --> 00:21:05,425 You know, I went to the temple, um, I prayed in the temple, 528 00:21:05,685 --> 00:21:06,985 you know, I read my scriptures. 529 00:21:07,005 --> 00:21:09,865 It just, it became, it became my quest, you know, to know. 530 00:21:10,085 --> 00:21:12,065 And, and part of that too was like the Book of Mormon, 531 00:21:12,185 --> 00:21:13,225 'cause they go hand in hand, you know? 532 00:21:13,945 --> 00:21:15,385 'cause if the Book of Mormon's true, you know, 533 00:21:15,385 --> 00:21:16,905 Joseph Smith must have been a prophet. 534 00:21:17,135 --> 00:21:21,065 Yeah. Um, and so it just, it was just a lot of, a lot 535 00:21:21,065 --> 00:21:22,985 of prayer, um, to, to, you know 536 00:21:23,935 --> 00:21:24,935 - Yeah. 537 00:21:24,935 --> 00:21:26,105 - To find out that that was, you know, 538 00:21:26,455 --> 00:21:27,455 - True. 539 00:21:27,455 --> 00:21:29,465 And just to create some context for those 540 00:21:29,465 --> 00:21:32,505 that are listening, I, I want individuals to know that 541 00:21:32,925 --> 00:21:34,345 as I saw you serve, I mean, 542 00:21:34,355 --> 00:21:36,545 Heath is an incredible individual when it comes 543 00:21:36,545 --> 00:21:37,825 to just purely serving. 544 00:21:38,525 --> 00:21:40,105 Um, and he is looking very 545 00:21:40,105 --> 00:21:41,345 uncomfortable right now as I say this. 546 00:21:41,405 --> 00:21:44,145 But the reality is, is like, I, 547 00:21:44,225 --> 00:21:46,465 I don't think you ever really enjoyed the administrative 548 00:21:46,575 --> 00:21:47,745 side of these callings. 549 00:21:47,745 --> 00:21:50,345 You know, like, again, go collect your nu the home teaching 550 00:21:50,345 --> 00:21:51,825 numbers, or you gotta meet. 551 00:21:51,845 --> 00:21:54,745 But when it came to like, visiting, like I think of, uh, 552 00:21:55,605 --> 00:21:58,065 you know, Lance and the Ward, and, and I would see you 553 00:21:58,065 --> 00:22:00,025 and invite him over for dinner and things like that. 554 00:22:00,095 --> 00:22:02,385 Like, I just always idolize that. 555 00:22:02,385 --> 00:22:03,745 And I always thought, you know, I wanna be 556 00:22:03,745 --> 00:22:05,025 that type of saint that does that. 557 00:22:05,025 --> 00:22:07,645 And so, one miscon, 558 00:22:07,745 --> 00:22:10,885 and the reason I say that is one misconception that, uh, uh, 559 00:22:10,885 --> 00:22:11,885 many individuals, and, 560 00:22:11,905 --> 00:22:14,925 and I think it only takes about a few months in leadership 561 00:22:14,925 --> 00:22:17,205 when, when you, you can get rid of this misconception, 562 00:22:17,265 --> 00:22:19,645 but it's individuals that have doubts. 563 00:22:20,075 --> 00:22:21,765 It's not about because they're sinning 564 00:22:21,945 --> 00:22:23,125 or that they're doing something wrong, 565 00:22:23,185 --> 00:22:24,885 or they, they just really want to sin. 566 00:22:24,905 --> 00:22:27,765 And so they, they, these, uh, these doubts are just sort 567 00:22:27,765 --> 00:22:29,005 of a smokescreen to that. 568 00:22:29,205 --> 00:22:31,235 I mean, and, 569 00:22:31,235 --> 00:22:34,795 and this what breaks my heart is that, you know, 570 00:22:34,795 --> 00:22:37,195 you were really, were striving to be better. 571 00:22:37,215 --> 00:22:38,595 You were fasting, you were going the temple, 572 00:22:38,595 --> 00:22:41,675 and you were, you were, um, you know, just craving 573 00:22:42,585 --> 00:22:46,665 that certainty, but for whatever reason, 574 00:22:46,765 --> 00:22:49,945 it didn't come in the way that you expected it to, 575 00:22:50,045 --> 00:22:51,185 or if it came at all. 576 00:22:51,455 --> 00:22:53,255 Yeah. Right. Um, 577 00:22:54,125 --> 00:22:56,415 - Well, and I, I mean, like, that's the thing. 578 00:22:56,415 --> 00:22:59,415 Like, I look back on it and like, I mean, like, I, 579 00:22:59,695 --> 00:23:01,855 I don't know, like maybe God was trying to gimme an answer 580 00:23:01,855 --> 00:23:04,455 and I just couldn't hear it, or I wouldn't hear it. 581 00:23:04,535 --> 00:23:05,535 I don't know. That's the thing. 582 00:23:05,535 --> 00:23:09,095 Like, I still, I just don't know, you know? Yeah. 583 00:23:09,815 --> 00:23:13,225 - Yeah. So, and as, as we've had these conversations in, 584 00:23:13,225 --> 00:23:17,525 in your office and such, um, at one point you said that, uh, 585 00:23:18,065 --> 00:23:21,365 you don't think you would've left if you weren't putting the 586 00:23:21,365 --> 00:23:22,405 bishop brick . 587 00:23:22,505 --> 00:23:24,525 And I'm like, great. He thanks for blaming it on me, 588 00:23:24,625 --> 00:23:26,245 you know, but, and, and, um, 589 00:23:27,065 --> 00:23:29,325 but what you mean by that is it just turned up the, 590 00:23:29,345 --> 00:23:32,405 the dial on that pressure to be that leader who could stand 591 00:23:32,425 --> 00:23:33,485 and, and say, I know. 592 00:23:33,685 --> 00:23:34,765 I know. I know. Yeah, 593 00:23:34,765 --> 00:23:35,765 - Exactly. 594 00:23:35,865 --> 00:23:37,525 - You know, during that time we served together, 595 00:23:38,425 --> 00:23:40,085 before you even let me know, you were struggling 596 00:23:40,085 --> 00:23:41,085 with something, you seemed like 597 00:23:41,085 --> 00:23:42,245 there was a struggle going on. 598 00:23:42,275 --> 00:23:45,205 Yeah. And, and you're not , you weren't, you, 599 00:23:45,265 --> 00:23:48,205 you aren't the type that necessarily is just gonna open up 600 00:23:48,225 --> 00:23:49,565 and let these things pour out. 601 00:23:49,705 --> 00:23:51,365 And, and I think a lot of people are like that. 602 00:23:51,625 --> 00:23:54,485 But I, looking back, you know, with hindsight, it, 603 00:23:54,875 --> 00:23:56,725 it's more obvious that this was going on, 604 00:23:56,835 --> 00:23:58,045 that you were struggling with this. 605 00:23:58,395 --> 00:24:01,395 Yeah. Um, so, and, 606 00:24:01,415 --> 00:24:03,995 and let's, uh, just kind of finish up the timeline here 607 00:24:04,015 --> 00:24:05,395 and we'll come back. 608 00:24:05,395 --> 00:24:06,715 And it came, basically, 609 00:24:06,915 --> 00:24:08,275 I was called to the stake presidency. 610 00:24:08,735 --> 00:24:11,515 And, uh, so a release was, a release was coming. 611 00:24:12,095 --> 00:24:15,355 Um, we called the first counselor as the new bishop. Yeah. 612 00:24:15,375 --> 00:24:19,135 Um, and, uh, I remember that. 613 00:24:19,515 --> 00:24:21,335 And, and this, would you say near the end there, 614 00:24:21,335 --> 00:24:23,895 this is sort of the pinnacle of, of 615 00:24:23,895 --> 00:24:24,935 what you were going through, right? 616 00:24:25,165 --> 00:24:27,975 - Yeah. Well, and, and like, right before, um, yeah. 617 00:24:28,075 --> 00:24:30,545 So, um, yeah. 618 00:24:30,745 --> 00:24:32,585 'cause I mean, the, the Bishop read got dissolved, 619 00:24:33,055 --> 00:24:34,465 like you said, because you got called 620 00:24:34,495 --> 00:24:35,705 into the stick presidency. 621 00:24:35,725 --> 00:24:39,705 But, um, probably just like a few weeks, um, before that. 622 00:24:40,375 --> 00:24:41,585 Yeah. Things just, I don't 623 00:24:41,585 --> 00:24:43,225 know, do you want me to talk about it? I mean, 624 00:24:43,225 --> 00:24:45,065 - Yeah, let's do it. I mean, if you're comfortable with it. 625 00:24:45,295 --> 00:24:46,545 - Yeah. I mean, like, I just, 626 00:24:47,285 --> 00:24:48,465 it was such a struggle with me. 627 00:24:48,465 --> 00:24:52,225 Like I wanted so bad just to like, um, you know, like 628 00:24:52,225 --> 00:24:53,865 that burning in the bosom or, you know, 629 00:24:53,865 --> 00:24:54,905 however you want to describe it. 630 00:24:54,905 --> 00:24:56,945 Like, I just want it so bad, like 631 00:24:56,945 --> 00:25:01,305 that just like undeniable answer when you pray to know, 632 00:25:01,685 --> 00:25:03,745 you know, about the Book of Mormon or Joseph Smith. 633 00:25:03,745 --> 00:25:06,585 And I just, I, I couldn't get it, you know? 634 00:25:06,845 --> 00:25:10,205 Um, or I just, I couldn't recognize it 635 00:25:10,205 --> 00:25:11,245 or whatever the answer is. 636 00:25:11,505 --> 00:25:14,125 Um, but I, you know, I, I became like increasingly like, 637 00:25:14,125 --> 00:25:15,325 just depressed, um, 638 00:25:15,905 --> 00:25:17,805 and just incredibly just, um, 639 00:25:19,615 --> 00:25:21,115 um, I don't know, just, yeah. 640 00:25:21,115 --> 00:25:22,995 Depressed is, is, is the word for 641 00:25:22,995 --> 00:25:23,995 - It. 642 00:25:23,995 --> 00:25:24,595 And how, how did that manifest itself? 643 00:25:24,715 --> 00:25:28,755 I mean, were you, you'd take days off work, would you Yeah. 644 00:25:28,755 --> 00:25:29,795 Sleep in what? I mean, 645 00:25:29,795 --> 00:25:32,995 - What, so I mean, yeah, like, I just, I just, yeah. 646 00:25:33,075 --> 00:25:35,595 I mean, it, it was like I was consumed by this. 647 00:25:35,665 --> 00:25:37,835 Like, is this true or is this not true? 648 00:25:38,095 --> 00:25:40,515 You know, I was consumed with like, getting the answer, 649 00:25:40,615 --> 00:25:42,075 and I, I couldn't get the answer. 650 00:25:42,215 --> 00:25:45,315 And is the problem me, you know, um, 651 00:25:45,735 --> 00:25:47,475 am am I just not like, good enough? 652 00:25:47,495 --> 00:25:48,555 Or like, I, I don't know. 653 00:25:48,655 --> 00:25:53,565 But, um, it, it just, I like, I was, it, 654 00:25:53,705 --> 00:25:54,925 you know, it, it, it was hard. 655 00:25:55,025 --> 00:25:59,625 And, and the thing is, it's like, um, like, uh, 656 00:25:59,685 --> 00:26:02,785 so it was a Sunday, and this was just a few weeks, you know, 657 00:26:02,785 --> 00:26:06,025 before the, like, they changed the, the bishop brick. 658 00:26:06,025 --> 00:26:07,865 But, um, it was a Sunday. 659 00:26:08,565 --> 00:26:11,145 Uh, I, I had taken like a late nap and, 660 00:26:11,245 --> 00:26:12,345 and I woke up for my nap. 661 00:26:12,365 --> 00:26:14,825 And, and like, for the first time, like, in my life, 662 00:26:15,015 --> 00:26:19,465 it's just like, I had thought like, it's not true, you know? 663 00:26:20,085 --> 00:26:24,705 And, uh, it was just like, you'd have to understand like, 664 00:26:25,275 --> 00:26:27,385 where I was at, and like the depression I was feeling 665 00:26:27,485 --> 00:26:29,305 and like struggling so hard to get an answer. 666 00:26:29,305 --> 00:26:30,545 Like, I felt relieved. 667 00:26:30,575 --> 00:26:33,425 Like, I felt like this, like incredible relief. 668 00:26:34,125 --> 00:26:35,645 Um, you know, 669 00:26:35,645 --> 00:26:37,525 because like, well, if it's not true, then 670 00:26:37,595 --> 00:26:38,645 that kind of answers it. 671 00:26:38,645 --> 00:26:40,965 You know? Like, that's why there's all these things 672 00:26:41,475 --> 00:26:42,925 that don't make sense, you know? 673 00:26:43,025 --> 00:26:45,845 And that, um, you know, and I, 674 00:26:45,845 --> 00:26:48,005 and I remember like, like I woke up from the nap, 675 00:26:48,005 --> 00:26:49,205 and I just had that thought. 676 00:26:49,225 --> 00:26:53,085 And I remember telling my wife, you know, like, I, 677 00:26:53,245 --> 00:26:54,805 I think the answer might be that it's not true. 678 00:26:55,625 --> 00:27:00,125 Um, but then like, it's like that, like, I, I felt relief 679 00:27:00,125 --> 00:27:01,565 for a little bit, right? 680 00:27:02,585 --> 00:27:06,825 Um, but it's like after, it wasn't long, 681 00:27:06,825 --> 00:27:09,545 but like, the relief kind of like replaced itself with like, 682 00:27:10,205 --> 00:27:14,125 um, like thoughts that like, we'll shoot, 683 00:27:14,125 --> 00:27:16,605 like if the church isn't true, like, what's the point? 684 00:27:17,205 --> 00:27:20,005 Hmm. Um, and like, I think I, you know, I told you like, um, 685 00:27:21,155 --> 00:27:22,725 like I would've, like, I, 686 00:27:23,045 --> 00:27:24,605 I felt relieved to have an answer, you know? 687 00:27:24,605 --> 00:27:25,645 But then I thought like, well, 688 00:27:25,645 --> 00:27:26,845 if it's not true, there's no point. 689 00:27:27,305 --> 00:27:28,365 Um, and, uh, 690 00:27:30,365 --> 00:27:32,505 and so like that last sun, like the Sunday 691 00:27:32,515 --> 00:27:33,905 where they changed the bishoprick, 692 00:27:34,425 --> 00:27:36,025 I just couldn't bring myself to go to church. 693 00:27:36,055 --> 00:27:37,305 Yeah. And it's like Rachel 694 00:27:37,365 --> 00:27:39,945 and I, um, my wife, you know, we tried to come up with like, 695 00:27:39,945 --> 00:27:42,745 something to do that day, like an excuse to be outta town, 696 00:27:42,805 --> 00:27:45,745 but we, we just, like, we stayed at home 697 00:27:46,045 --> 00:27:47,585 and I just like stayed in bed 698 00:27:47,605 --> 00:27:50,945 and we didn't go to church to be released, but it's just 699 00:27:50,945 --> 00:27:52,065 because I couldn't bring myself 700 00:27:52,085 --> 00:27:53,585 to stand, you know, in front of the ward. 701 00:27:53,605 --> 00:27:55,105 And like, I don't know. Yeah. 702 00:27:55,365 --> 00:27:57,505 - And, and going on from my perspective, you know, 703 00:27:57,505 --> 00:27:59,505 I was there and I, I remember sitting that s meeting like, 704 00:27:59,725 --> 00:28:00,745 now, where's Heath 705 00:28:01,105 --> 00:28:02,105 - ? 706 00:28:02,105 --> 00:28:02,545 Yeah. I didn't tell anyone. Yeah. 707 00:28:02,615 --> 00:28:04,145 - Yeah. And, and I knew, 708 00:28:04,445 --> 00:28:06,465 and at this point, we'd had some of these conversations. 709 00:28:06,545 --> 00:28:08,025 I knew you were sort of going through this process, 710 00:28:08,205 --> 00:28:12,885 but yeah, I was just like, man, like he's my friend. 711 00:28:12,885 --> 00:28:14,725 Like, I want him here. Like we've, we've sort 712 00:28:14,725 --> 00:28:16,765 of been in the, in the ditches together. 713 00:28:16,905 --> 00:28:19,005 We, we've been in this Bishop Rick, and, and it's ending, 714 00:28:19,065 --> 00:28:21,685 and it's kind of a, a reflective meeting, you know, as, 715 00:28:21,705 --> 00:28:24,245 as they generally are, as those changes are happening. 716 00:28:24,825 --> 00:28:28,985 Um, but now knowing what I know, I I, 717 00:28:28,985 --> 00:28:30,545 because we would've had just had, 718 00:28:30,545 --> 00:28:32,825 would've had you stand with your wife and Yeah. 719 00:28:32,925 --> 00:28:35,145 And share your testimony, right? Yeah. Yeah. 720 00:28:35,285 --> 00:28:37,985 Um, and so I can understand going through that, 721 00:28:38,165 --> 00:28:39,265 why you wouldn't wanna be there. 722 00:28:39,805 --> 00:28:42,525 Um, so let's just pause for a minute here. 723 00:28:43,185 --> 00:28:47,605 And, and again, 724 00:28:50,615 --> 00:28:52,715 man, this is, this is, this is a tough episode 725 00:28:52,745 --> 00:28:55,275 because , it's a little personal for me, I guess. 726 00:28:55,275 --> 00:28:56,515 Yeah. Um, but 727 00:28:56,515 --> 00:29:00,515 nonetheless, I've, I've been so blessed from our, 728 00:29:01,685 --> 00:29:05,215 our interactions that I've got to share this. 729 00:29:06,715 --> 00:29:09,555 Um, and so 730 00:29:11,665 --> 00:29:13,745 I don't want this to seem like, okay, 731 00:29:13,745 --> 00:29:16,625 I've brought this guy on the, the, the, the podcast 732 00:29:16,925 --> 00:29:19,345 and he has received this answer. 733 00:29:19,525 --> 00:29:20,945 The church isn't true. Yeah. 734 00:29:21,225 --> 00:29:22,945 - I know. I'm not trying to make it sound that way either. 735 00:29:23,075 --> 00:29:24,075 Right. 736 00:29:24,445 --> 00:29:27,065 - And I wanna just make sure people listening that that is, 737 00:29:27,245 --> 00:29:29,265 that's just what your experience, what you were going 738 00:29:29,265 --> 00:29:33,425 through, you were in such a, such a race to, to get that, 739 00:29:33,695 --> 00:29:35,185 that confirmation Yeah. 740 00:29:35,325 --> 00:29:38,465 To, to gain that certitude, that when the thought, 741 00:29:39,245 --> 00:29:41,310 who I would claim where the thought would come from, 742 00:29:41,310 --> 00:29:42,230 maybe different, where you would 743 00:29:42,230 --> 00:29:43,270 claim the thought would Yeah. 744 00:29:43,275 --> 00:29:47,355 Come from when that thought came across your mind of, well, 745 00:29:47,355 --> 00:29:48,635 maybe it just isn't true. 746 00:29:49,295 --> 00:29:52,355 And suddenly that stress lifts Yeah. 747 00:29:53,345 --> 00:29:56,725 Nobody can blame you for entertaining that. Yeah. Right? 748 00:29:56,875 --> 00:29:58,405 Yeah. I mean, you were depressed. 749 00:29:58,905 --> 00:30:01,045 You had been fasting, you'd been going to temple, 750 00:30:01,055 --> 00:30:02,405 you'd been begging for this answer. 751 00:30:02,435 --> 00:30:05,285 Yeah. Right. And way back in primary, 752 00:30:05,455 --> 00:30:08,165 we've had those lessons of, okay, you just, you know, 753 00:30:08,185 --> 00:30:10,965 you read Marna and then you pray, and the answer come, and, 754 00:30:11,665 --> 00:30:13,605 and absolutely. 755 00:30:13,605 --> 00:30:16,485 That has been, uh, uh, uh, that's a very simplified 756 00:30:17,015 --> 00:30:19,685 experience of what mine had my experience have been. 757 00:30:19,845 --> 00:30:21,565 I have received that witness. Yeah. 758 00:30:21,625 --> 00:30:24,925 And, and I am, I mean, I'm giving my life 759 00:30:24,985 --> 00:30:26,685 to this church through my service. 760 00:30:26,685 --> 00:30:28,245 Yeah. I mean, the time, the things I've given, I, 761 00:30:28,285 --> 00:30:30,045 I really feel like I've, I've received that, 762 00:30:31,865 --> 00:30:33,125 but my heart just breaks 763 00:30:34,855 --> 00:30:36,105 that when you're going through that. 764 00:30:36,265 --> 00:30:39,615 I wish, again, this isn't about what I could have done 765 00:30:39,635 --> 00:30:41,495 or couldn't have done, but I wish I could have done 766 00:30:41,495 --> 00:30:43,325 something, you know? 767 00:30:43,755 --> 00:30:46,525 Yeah. And, and I don't know if we'll discover through this, 768 00:30:46,665 --> 00:30:48,845 uh, through this interaction, what that thing is. 769 00:30:48,845 --> 00:30:51,405 But again, this is the pur this comes to the, the, 770 00:30:51,465 --> 00:30:53,645 the purpose of this interview, as a, 771 00:30:53,645 --> 00:30:58,025 as leaders are listening, they need to stop 772 00:30:58,045 --> 00:30:59,265 and just ask themselves, 773 00:30:59,965 --> 00:31:02,865 do I have any heaths in my ward? 774 00:31:04,195 --> 00:31:05,415 And what are you gonna do about it? 775 00:31:05,665 --> 00:31:09,115 Right Now, we had, and, 776 00:31:09,255 --> 00:31:12,075 and going back to when we were still serving, 777 00:31:12,175 --> 00:31:13,755 we had these interactions where you just said, 778 00:31:13,755 --> 00:31:14,835 you know, I'm struggling with this. 779 00:31:14,945 --> 00:31:18,115 Yeah. And I, and we had some good discussions and, and, 780 00:31:18,375 --> 00:31:19,835 and I validated what you're saying. 781 00:31:19,835 --> 00:31:21,755 Yeah. I didn't say, oh, Heath, come on. Like, yeah. 782 00:31:21,755 --> 00:31:23,995 You know, forget about it. I, I really tried to validate it. 783 00:31:23,995 --> 00:31:25,715 Yeah. And to be honest, I walked away from those 784 00:31:26,235 --> 00:31:28,875 interactions feeling like, you know, Heath's Okay. 785 00:31:29,145 --> 00:31:31,555 Yeah. You know, like, he's struggling and that's cool. 786 00:31:31,655 --> 00:31:35,275 But I, I wasn't, I wasn't worried about you, you know, 787 00:31:36,155 --> 00:31:38,195 I I thought you were sort of coming out of it. 788 00:31:38,715 --> 00:31:40,515 - Y Yeah. I, and yeah. 789 00:31:40,895 --> 00:31:43,275 And, and, and just to say something on what you said, like, 790 00:31:43,305 --> 00:31:44,595 I've never claimed that, like, 791 00:31:44,705 --> 00:31:46,195 that thought that the church wasn't true. 792 00:31:46,505 --> 00:31:48,715 I've never claimed that that was revelation. Yeah. 793 00:31:48,935 --> 00:31:50,035 Um, but the thought was there. 794 00:31:50,035 --> 00:31:51,155 It's the first time I'd ever thought it. 795 00:31:51,155 --> 00:31:53,955 And I did feel relief, but I don't, I don't know. Yeah. 796 00:31:54,585 --> 00:31:55,915 - Yeah. And that's why I go back to, 797 00:31:55,915 --> 00:31:58,835 nobody can blame you if, if in that moment that, 798 00:31:58,835 --> 00:32:01,435 that you entertained that idea and the stress went away. 799 00:32:01,665 --> 00:32:04,395 Yeah. Um, to me, I look back 800 00:32:04,395 --> 00:32:08,085 and that was, how can I, how can I raise my kid to, 801 00:32:08,185 --> 00:32:09,645 to believe in these principles and, 802 00:32:09,665 --> 00:32:11,605 and understand the process of getting a testimony 803 00:32:12,305 --> 00:32:14,925 and No, without building that stress 804 00:32:15,025 --> 00:32:16,165 as they go through that process. 805 00:32:16,215 --> 00:32:17,325 Right. Yeah. Absolutely. 806 00:32:17,345 --> 00:32:19,205 And as we interact with members, how can we, 807 00:32:19,305 --> 00:32:20,645 how can we interact with these members 808 00:32:20,745 --> 00:32:22,405 and encourage them towards testimony 809 00:32:22,435 --> 00:32:24,525 without building that stress? Yeah. 810 00:32:24,945 --> 00:32:28,925 - And yeah. And, and as like, you know, about like, 811 00:32:29,085 --> 00:32:30,685 'cause me and you had, like you mentioned, we had talked, 812 00:32:30,685 --> 00:32:34,885 like, I'd, you know, I told you, you know, like, you know, 813 00:32:35,945 --> 00:32:37,875 that like, I was struggling, you know, like 814 00:32:38,225 --> 00:32:39,885 with doubts and with my testimony. 815 00:32:40,545 --> 00:32:44,455 Um, and I remember like, you had made the comment, like, not 816 00:32:44,455 --> 00:32:45,615 that you were gonna release me, 817 00:32:45,635 --> 00:32:46,935 but that maybe like, you should 818 00:32:46,935 --> 00:32:48,135 release me from the Bishop Rick. 819 00:32:48,435 --> 00:32:49,695 And this was before, you know, like, 820 00:32:49,695 --> 00:32:51,655 we knew you were gonna get called into the state presidency. 821 00:32:51,655 --> 00:32:54,845 Mm-Hmm. . And I mean, I don't know. 822 00:32:54,845 --> 00:32:59,745 Like, I, I don't know that like, um, it's, 823 00:32:59,745 --> 00:33:01,385 it's hard to know what I was thinking back then, 824 00:33:01,405 --> 00:33:05,865 but I mean, like, I, you know, like, I was probably trying 825 00:33:05,865 --> 00:33:08,025 to like, act like maybe like things were more like 826 00:33:08,165 --> 00:33:09,305 better than they actually were. 827 00:33:09,585 --> 00:33:10,745 Hmm. I didn't want to be released. 828 00:33:10,775 --> 00:33:13,345 Like, I didn't think I needed to be released. Um, 829 00:33:13,765 --> 00:33:16,505 - And, and I think I, and just to clarify, I, 830 00:33:16,545 --> 00:33:17,865 I wasn't necessarily saying, well, 831 00:33:17,865 --> 00:33:19,225 maybe we should release you 'cause Wow, 832 00:33:19,365 --> 00:33:21,625 we can't have somebody with doubts in, in the bishoprick. 833 00:33:21,625 --> 00:33:24,735 Yeah. But more, I just like, listen, you, you're, 834 00:33:24,735 --> 00:33:26,895 and you were starting your, your law practice at this time. 835 00:33:26,895 --> 00:33:28,055 Yeah. You had a lot coming at you. 836 00:33:28,055 --> 00:33:29,815 You were sleeping in your office sometimes . 837 00:33:29,815 --> 00:33:30,935 - No. Yeah, that's right. I - Was, you 838 00:33:30,935 --> 00:33:31,975 were, you were just very stressed there. 839 00:33:31,995 --> 00:33:32,895 So I kind of approached that 840 00:33:32,895 --> 00:33:34,095 like, Heath, like, listen, yeah. 841 00:33:34,195 --> 00:33:36,335 If we need to release you Yeah. 842 00:33:36,595 --> 00:33:39,175 I'm not gonna, it's not because you failed, or Yeah. 843 00:33:39,355 --> 00:33:41,415 I'm not gonna be as disappointed in that. So, no, 844 00:33:41,415 --> 00:33:42,415 - And, and you're absolutely right. 845 00:33:42,415 --> 00:33:44,295 And that, and that's, that's the way I, I remember it too. 846 00:33:44,375 --> 00:33:46,215 I mean, you were definitely, it was coming from a place 847 00:33:46,215 --> 00:33:49,495 of love and, and you know, like, you know, we're friends 848 00:33:49,555 --> 00:33:51,455 and, and I didn't, that's, that's the way I took it too. 849 00:33:51,475 --> 00:33:55,055 But like, I honestly thought like that I was just like, 850 00:33:55,235 --> 00:33:56,815 it was just, it was a struggle. 851 00:33:57,075 --> 00:33:58,215 And there was a, you know, 852 00:33:58,295 --> 00:34:00,695 I was gonna come out the other end with, you know, 853 00:34:00,695 --> 00:34:02,375 this perfect knowledge that it was all true. 854 00:34:02,525 --> 00:34:03,855 Like, I really thought that. Yeah. 855 00:34:04,435 --> 00:34:05,655 - And you were in the struggle. And 856 00:34:05,655 --> 00:34:06,815 the struggle is gonna be worth it. 857 00:34:06,925 --> 00:34:08,415 - Yeah. Right. - I guess. Yeah. 858 00:34:08,915 --> 00:34:10,895 So let's kind of finish the story to bring us up to, 859 00:34:10,895 --> 00:34:13,655 because this was a year ago that the change happened. 860 00:34:13,815 --> 00:34:18,255 Yeah. And, uh, so, and I remember, um, after, soon 861 00:34:18,255 --> 00:34:20,415 after we released you sort of, you met with the bishop 862 00:34:20,835 --> 00:34:23,695 and the new bishop and just said, listen, I'm, I'm out. 863 00:34:23,695 --> 00:34:24,775 Like, not, not out, 864 00:34:24,795 --> 00:34:26,935 but I'm just gonna step away from 865 00:34:26,935 --> 00:34:28,775 being involved in the church. Like, 866 00:34:28,775 --> 00:34:29,775 - At that point. 867 00:34:29,775 --> 00:34:32,895 So when, when they called the new Bishop break, um, at 868 00:34:32,935 --> 00:34:36,295 that point, like I, I had completely like lost my testimony 869 00:34:36,295 --> 00:34:38,495 of Joseph Smith or, you know, the Book 870 00:34:38,495 --> 00:34:39,615 of Mormon and, and stuff. 871 00:34:39,675 --> 00:34:43,515 So, um, I think it, you know, um, 872 00:34:44,295 --> 00:34:46,355 my brother-in-Law was getting married around that, 873 00:34:46,695 --> 00:34:47,715 around that same time. 874 00:34:48,375 --> 00:34:51,275 Um, and my temple recommend was expired. 875 00:34:51,535 --> 00:34:53,955 So, um, like I, I had, like, 876 00:34:53,995 --> 00:34:55,995 I re I renewed my temple recommend, you know, 877 00:34:56,095 --> 00:34:57,195 and I felt guilty for it 878 00:34:57,195 --> 00:34:58,515 because, um, 879 00:34:59,835 --> 00:35:01,755 I don't know the que I think the question is like, you know, 880 00:35:01,755 --> 00:35:04,315 do you have a testimony of, which is very vague. 881 00:35:04,815 --> 00:35:06,635 So I think I kind of justify like, well, yeah, 882 00:35:06,785 --> 00:35:08,035 - Yeah, sure. All right. Yeah. 883 00:35:08,035 --> 00:35:09,475 - Like a testimony I can go either way. 884 00:35:09,635 --> 00:35:10,995 - Right? Yeah. 'cause you weren't, I mean, you, 885 00:35:11,835 --> 00:35:14,275 - I, I really wanted to like, go to that, the wedding. 886 00:35:14,305 --> 00:35:16,675 Like, I didn't wanna like be excluded from my 887 00:35:16,675 --> 00:35:18,435 brother-in-law's wedding, you know, my Mm-Hmm. 888 00:35:18,475 --> 00:35:19,955 . And, and so I ended up not, 889 00:35:19,955 --> 00:35:21,355 - And your family and that family knew nothing 890 00:35:21,415 --> 00:35:23,075 of what you were going through. Exactly. 891 00:35:23,075 --> 00:35:24,555 - Like, I hadn't shared anything with them 892 00:35:24,655 --> 00:35:25,875 or anybody, and not 893 00:35:26,095 --> 00:35:27,875 - Doubts to being, I mean, yeah. 894 00:35:27,875 --> 00:35:29,795 Like, oh, come on man. You just let your temple recommend 895 00:35:29,795 --> 00:35:30,595 expire, like, get the temple 896 00:35:30,595 --> 00:35:32,155 recommended so you can come to my wedding. Right. 897 00:35:32,155 --> 00:35:33,715 - Exactly. You know, I ended up not 898 00:35:33,715 --> 00:35:34,835 going to the wedding anyways. 899 00:35:35,255 --> 00:35:38,685 Um, but it's because like, um, I've had a client come 900 00:35:38,685 --> 00:35:41,765 to my office that had like a very urgent, like, case 901 00:35:41,865 --> 00:35:44,965 and, you know, I slept in my office for like three days, 902 00:35:45,075 --> 00:35:47,085 like, and worked around the clock to do that case, 903 00:35:47,085 --> 00:35:48,845 and I missed my brother-in-law's wedding anyways. 904 00:35:48,985 --> 00:35:50,685 Um, but then like right 905 00:35:50,685 --> 00:35:53,725 after the wedding, um, I came into the new Bishop's office 906 00:35:53,905 --> 00:35:57,205 and, and, uh, you know, I gave him my temper recommend just 907 00:35:57,205 --> 00:36:00,325 because I felt like it would be dishonest for me to have it, 908 00:36:00,325 --> 00:36:03,375 because I, I couldn't say I believed, you know? Mm-Hmm. 909 00:36:03,415 --> 00:36:06,695 - . Yeah. And then what transpired from, 910 00:36:07,015 --> 00:36:08,695 'cause from there, I think you really, 911 00:36:09,165 --> 00:36:11,015 your family wasn't really at church Yeah. 912 00:36:11,395 --> 00:36:12,455 - Or - Regular after that. 913 00:36:13,075 --> 00:36:15,495 Um, what, what transpired between that 914 00:36:15,495 --> 00:36:16,615 and then the resignation? 915 00:36:17,035 --> 00:36:18,655 - You know, we just, we stopped coming to church. 916 00:36:18,895 --> 00:36:21,695 I think I, um, you know, we, we have a good mutual friend 917 00:36:21,695 --> 00:36:24,055 that was in the ward, and it was like their last Sunday. 918 00:36:24,115 --> 00:36:26,815 And I think that was like the only time that we had gone 919 00:36:26,815 --> 00:36:28,495 to church in like, the last, I don't know. 920 00:36:30,005 --> 00:36:31,645 I, you know, I think that's the only time I've come 921 00:36:31,645 --> 00:36:32,845 to the Ward in like, the last year. 922 00:36:33,155 --> 00:36:36,445 Yeah. So, I mean, like, really, we just, we stopped coming 923 00:36:36,465 --> 00:36:40,855 to church, you know, I started, I started listening to some, 924 00:36:40,855 --> 00:36:42,815 like, to a lot of podcasts, you know, that deal 925 00:36:42,815 --> 00:36:45,855 with like Mormon LDS topics, you know, 926 00:36:45,935 --> 00:36:48,575 I really was searching for something that like, kind 927 00:36:48,575 --> 00:36:51,535 of talked about all these issues with church history, um, 928 00:36:52,425 --> 00:36:53,965 but, and like recognized 929 00:36:53,965 --> 00:36:55,885 that like maybe there were some problems there, you know, 930 00:36:55,945 --> 00:36:57,565 and, and kind of validated it. 931 00:36:57,765 --> 00:36:59,725 I think that if I would've like found something like that, 932 00:36:59,725 --> 00:37:01,725 like early on, I don't know. 933 00:37:01,725 --> 00:37:03,885 It's, it's hard to know like what I would've done. 934 00:37:03,905 --> 00:37:07,835 But I mean, I think I've come to like, like a place, like 935 00:37:07,835 --> 00:37:09,475 where I'm at currently, where like I feel like I could 936 00:37:09,475 --> 00:37:10,555 start going to church again. 937 00:37:11,495 --> 00:37:15,715 Um, but like my testimony is just, I don't know that it'll, 938 00:37:16,135 --> 00:37:17,275 you know, be what it was before. 939 00:37:17,355 --> 00:37:19,155 I don't know. I don't know if any of this makes sense, but 940 00:37:19,305 --> 00:37:20,305 - Sure. 941 00:37:20,305 --> 00:37:22,395 Um, actually that the bishop that replaced me, um, 942 00:37:22,775 --> 00:37:25,435 he was only in for six months and had to move and, uh, 943 00:37:25,675 --> 00:37:26,675 'cause of family situations. 944 00:37:26,695 --> 00:37:29,035 And, um, and then a new bishop was called. 945 00:37:29,035 --> 00:37:31,835 And, and I remember coming to church, uh, one Sunday 946 00:37:31,975 --> 00:37:35,675 and the bishop, uh, mentioning to me that, uh, 947 00:37:35,825 --> 00:37:36,955 they had gotten these, 948 00:37:37,415 --> 00:37:38,955 the resignation letters from your family. 949 00:37:38,955 --> 00:37:41,815 Yeah. And I was like, blown away, like, like, and, 950 00:37:41,835 --> 00:37:44,175 and to, to be honest, it completely broke my heart. 951 00:37:44,325 --> 00:37:47,335 Yeah. Because I, you know, I, I served with you 952 00:37:47,395 --> 00:37:48,575 so long, I knew your family. 953 00:37:48,675 --> 00:37:50,895 And it's like, well, you know, it's, it's fine 954 00:37:50,925 --> 00:37:52,735 that they separate, but I don't, you know, 955 00:37:52,815 --> 00:37:54,615 I hope they don't feel like they have to resign. 956 00:37:54,645 --> 00:37:55,735 Like, and, and so it, 957 00:37:55,915 --> 00:37:57,095 and it almost made thought, man, 958 00:37:57,095 --> 00:37:59,055 maybe they're more bitter than I thought, you know? 959 00:37:59,125 --> 00:38:01,695 Yeah. And, and you've mentioned that you just found 960 00:38:01,695 --> 00:38:04,135 that letter that's online and Yeah. 961 00:38:04,135 --> 00:38:07,455 It says all the right legal things and, and, and sent it in. 962 00:38:07,575 --> 00:38:08,815 And that letter sounds pretty bitter. 963 00:38:08,845 --> 00:38:11,215 Like if anybody read, he'd be like, man, this guy's problem. 964 00:38:11,215 --> 00:38:12,255 - Right? Yeah. I mean, yeah. I 965 00:38:12,255 --> 00:38:13,335 told you like, there's a website. 966 00:38:13,495 --> 00:38:15,935 I, and I kind of told you like, it's almost as easy 967 00:38:15,955 --> 00:38:19,095 as buying something on Amazon where, oops, I . 968 00:38:19,175 --> 00:38:21,335 - I, I - Didn't mean to take it that far, but, 969 00:38:21,355 --> 00:38:24,095 but the thing is, is like, like the decision, so like, 970 00:38:24,195 --> 00:38:26,575 to resign, like, it's just, there's a website, 971 00:38:26,645 --> 00:38:27,655 it's just like, yeah. 972 00:38:27,755 --> 00:38:29,695 You don't have to write up anything. I mean, it's just, 973 00:38:30,005 --> 00:38:31,895 - It's, you get print and then fill your names in, or 974 00:38:32,045 --> 00:38:33,045 - Yeah, exactly. 975 00:38:33,045 --> 00:38:34,495 So it's just putting your name on a form letter 976 00:38:34,495 --> 00:38:36,445 that gets sent to the church from this website. 977 00:38:36,505 --> 00:38:37,565 So, I mean, it only takes a couple 978 00:38:37,565 --> 00:38:38,765 minutes and then it's done. 979 00:38:38,765 --> 00:38:41,005 Right. And so, um, and, 980 00:38:41,065 --> 00:38:43,245 and it was kind of, I guess like a rash decision. 981 00:38:43,385 --> 00:38:47,485 But, um, you know, I, I just, the thing is like, with me, 982 00:38:47,485 --> 00:38:51,005 it's like, um, like I, like, I've always kind 983 00:38:51,005 --> 00:38:54,205 of been like all or nothing, you know, like no half efforts. 984 00:38:54,425 --> 00:38:56,205 And it's, I wasn't going to church 985 00:38:56,225 --> 00:38:58,765 and I, I didn't want to be, you know, like a Jack Mormon 986 00:38:58,785 --> 00:39:01,005 or, you know, if I was gonna have a religion, I didn't want 987 00:39:01,005 --> 00:39:03,165 to like half live it, you know? 988 00:39:03,385 --> 00:39:05,365 And plus like, I had this thought, you know, like, well, 989 00:39:05,365 --> 00:39:06,885 this is, this doesn't mean this is like forever. 990 00:39:07,425 --> 00:39:08,965 It just means that, you know, 991 00:39:08,965 --> 00:39:10,005 this is where I'm at right now. 992 00:39:10,155 --> 00:39:13,765 Like, you know, as far as resigning, um, 'cause you know, 993 00:39:13,765 --> 00:39:15,125 and plus like, I don't wanna pretend 994 00:39:15,125 --> 00:39:17,165 to be somebody that I'm not. 995 00:39:18,215 --> 00:39:22,445 And I, you know, I get asked, like, at work, you know, 996 00:39:22,445 --> 00:39:23,965 like if I'm LDS, you know, I, yeah. 997 00:39:24,025 --> 00:39:25,965 You know, we live in Salt Lake, you know, at Utah. 998 00:39:26,025 --> 00:39:28,925 So it's, it's a common question, you know, oh, are you LDS? 999 00:39:28,925 --> 00:39:32,365 So for those months like that we weren't going to church 1000 00:39:32,385 --> 00:39:33,485 and like that I, you know, 1001 00:39:33,485 --> 00:39:35,645 stopped believing in Joe Smith and the Book of Mormon. 1002 00:39:35,645 --> 00:39:38,045 Like, I just, it was so hard to answer that question. 1003 00:39:38,245 --> 00:39:40,925 'cause I felt like if I said yes, I was being like, 1004 00:39:41,345 --> 00:39:43,645 not honest, but like, what other answer was there? 1005 00:39:44,375 --> 00:39:46,915 And so I, I don't know, I, part 1006 00:39:46,915 --> 00:39:48,235 of me thought I would just make it be easier. 1007 00:39:48,475 --> 00:39:50,635 'cause then I could just truthfully tell people like, no, 1008 00:39:50,635 --> 00:39:51,675 I'm not LDS, you know? 1009 00:39:51,675 --> 00:39:52,995 Mm-Hmm. . But like, honestly, 1010 00:39:52,995 --> 00:39:54,035 like, it hasn't gotten any easier. 1011 00:39:54,035 --> 00:39:56,435 Like, it's still , it's still like, you know, 1012 00:39:56,675 --> 00:39:57,795 probably even just more awkward. 1013 00:39:57,795 --> 00:40:00,475 Yeah. And, and I don't know, probably like, 1014 00:40:00,475 --> 00:40:02,475 maybe once a week, like, I just like, man, 1015 00:40:02,475 --> 00:40:04,235 like maybe a little bit regret resigning 1016 00:40:04,235 --> 00:40:07,395 and think like it was, I don't know, you know, like, was 1017 00:40:07,395 --> 00:40:08,395 that the right thing to do? 1018 00:40:08,865 --> 00:40:11,235 - Yeah. So where, how would you describe what, what, 1019 00:40:11,235 --> 00:40:13,435 where are you at right now with, with it all? 1020 00:40:13,555 --> 00:40:15,035 I mean, emotionally with, 1021 00:40:15,105 --> 00:40:16,755 with your perspective on it all? With, 1022 00:40:17,095 --> 00:40:19,155 - So, I mean, here, here's the good part. 1023 00:40:19,155 --> 00:40:21,315 Like, I feel like I'm happier than I've been 1024 00:40:21,335 --> 00:40:22,355 in like, a really long time. 1025 00:40:22,455 --> 00:40:26,235 And, and it's not just like, you know, and, and, 1026 00:40:26,235 --> 00:40:27,755 and it's not just like the ups and downs 1027 00:40:27,755 --> 00:40:29,115 and I'm just on an up, you know, like, 1028 00:40:29,745 --> 00:40:31,715 like I really feel like overall, you know, like, 1029 00:40:32,265 --> 00:40:33,915 like I just feel like more at peace 1030 00:40:33,935 --> 00:40:36,995 and I just feel like I don't have this inner turmoil inside 1031 00:40:36,995 --> 00:40:38,795 of me, like, killing me like that. 1032 00:40:38,835 --> 00:40:41,235 I have to find out like that it's all true. You know? 1033 00:40:41,355 --> 00:40:42,995 'cause I, I guess I've just kind of like, let that go. 1034 00:40:43,175 --> 00:40:45,515 Mm-Hmm. . Um, and, 1035 00:40:45,575 --> 00:40:47,435 and I told you that like, um, 1036 00:40:48,485 --> 00:40:50,505 so the thing is when I was going through all this, like, 1037 00:40:50,525 --> 00:40:52,585 you know, I, I did what I thought I was supposed to. 1038 00:40:52,585 --> 00:40:55,265 Like, I stayed away from anything that, like websites 1039 00:40:55,265 --> 00:40:56,985 or podcasts or anything that would be like, 1040 00:40:57,785 --> 00:40:59,065 considered like, against the church, you know? 1041 00:40:59,065 --> 00:41:00,105 Mm-Hmm. . And it wasn't until like 1042 00:41:00,105 --> 00:41:01,465 after we stopped going, you know, 1043 00:41:01,485 --> 00:41:03,305 and like a few months later that like, maybe that, 1044 00:41:03,305 --> 00:41:05,105 that I started listening to some of that stuff. 1045 00:41:05,925 --> 00:41:08,345 But honestly, like, I feel like some of that stuff has kind 1046 00:41:08,345 --> 00:41:10,985 of like helped me because I didn't know that there was like, 1047 00:41:11,805 --> 00:41:13,745 um, like people like me that doubted, and I, 1048 00:41:13,745 --> 00:41:15,225 and honestly, I, um, 1049 00:41:15,325 --> 00:41:17,465 people at church don't talk about that they have doubts. 1050 00:41:17,465 --> 00:41:20,225 So like, I just thought that maybe everybody like had these, 1051 00:41:20,965 --> 00:41:24,105 you know, strong testimonies or like, I, I don't know. 1052 00:41:24,105 --> 00:41:25,585 Like, I just, I didn't know like anyone 1053 00:41:25,585 --> 00:41:26,665 that was in my position. 1054 00:41:27,325 --> 00:41:31,025 And so I think that, um, you know, now, now that I've kind 1055 00:41:31,025 --> 00:41:32,345 of like found some of these podcasts 1056 00:41:32,345 --> 00:41:33,685 and like listened some people and, 1057 00:41:33,685 --> 00:41:36,125 and I've listened to some things where like, um, 1058 00:41:36,895 --> 00:41:39,085 where people have issues about church history, 1059 00:41:39,185 --> 00:41:41,325 yet they still find like they, they, 1060 00:41:41,325 --> 00:41:42,605 they still believe in the church 1061 00:41:42,625 --> 00:41:43,885 or like come to church, you know, 1062 00:41:44,225 --> 00:41:45,645 and they still serve in the church and stuff. 1063 00:41:45,665 --> 00:41:50,325 And honestly, like, I feel like, um, like I, I feel like 1064 00:41:51,285 --> 00:41:53,765 I, I could find my place in the, you know, in the church 1065 00:41:53,765 --> 00:41:55,565 that way where it's like, there's 1066 00:41:55,565 --> 00:41:56,685 so many good things about the church, 1067 00:41:57,425 --> 00:42:00,165 but for some reason, like, in my mind at least, like, it, 1068 00:42:00,185 --> 00:42:01,445 it all kind of came down 1069 00:42:01,445 --> 00:42:03,045 to Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon. 1070 00:42:03,045 --> 00:42:04,805 Mm-Hmm. . But I feel like I'm at a place in my 1071 00:42:04,805 --> 00:42:06,485 life now where it's like, I could just say like, you know, 1072 00:42:06,605 --> 00:42:07,925 I don't care about church history anymore. 1073 00:42:08,755 --> 00:42:10,845 It's just like, it is what it is. Yeah. 1074 00:42:10,845 --> 00:42:14,515 Um, but like, there's still like good things about church. 1075 00:42:14,515 --> 00:42:16,035 And I think, like, I could come to church 1076 00:42:16,055 --> 00:42:19,765 and I think I could like, um, you know, like I, 1077 00:42:19,825 --> 00:42:21,125 I'm at a point in my life, I guess, 1078 00:42:21,125 --> 00:42:22,965 where I could just kind of let that stuff go. 1079 00:42:23,115 --> 00:42:25,525 Yeah. But I wasn't before, you know, 1080 00:42:26,425 --> 00:42:28,485 - And when you say that I'm, I'm thinking, 1081 00:42:28,585 --> 00:42:30,565 and when you said it initially in, in our, uh, 1082 00:42:31,645 --> 00:42:36,315 in our conversations off, off the, the recording here, um, 1083 00:42:37,975 --> 00:42:40,595 as a leader and as a bishop, I ask myself, 1084 00:42:42,875 --> 00:42:45,135 how can I, how can I have people 1085 00:42:45,135 --> 00:42:46,695 that are struggling with this? 1086 00:42:46,695 --> 00:42:49,895 How can I get them to that point before the resignation? 1087 00:42:49,895 --> 00:42:52,975 Because I don't think, and I mean, you'd agree 1088 00:42:52,975 --> 00:42:55,135 that the resignation didn't help you get there. 1089 00:42:55,155 --> 00:42:57,655 It was just sort of part of that timeline. Yeah, exactly. 1090 00:42:57,915 --> 00:43:00,055 It wasn't like, oh, I needed to resign 1091 00:43:00,055 --> 00:43:01,255 so I could step back and look. 1092 00:43:01,315 --> 00:43:04,055 But you said it was done sort of hastily. Yeah. 1093 00:43:04,275 --> 00:43:08,455 And then, um, and then you decompressed a little bit. Yeah. 1094 00:43:08,455 --> 00:43:09,495 And were able to look back 1095 00:43:09,495 --> 00:43:11,455 and think, you know what, you know, 1096 00:43:11,455 --> 00:43:13,375 and you looked, you discovered others like you. 1097 00:43:13,445 --> 00:43:15,655 Yeah. Um, and thought, wow, you know, 1098 00:43:15,655 --> 00:43:16,655 other people are doing it. 1099 00:43:16,705 --> 00:43:18,495 Other people. I'm not the only person in the world 1100 00:43:18,495 --> 00:43:19,695 that have, have this concern. 1101 00:43:20,165 --> 00:43:22,695 Yeah. And so what would you say to a bishop, like how, 1102 00:43:22,815 --> 00:43:24,695 I mean, if we could turn back time a little bit, 1103 00:43:24,695 --> 00:43:29,195 like is there anything that could have been done to help you 1104 00:43:29,905 --> 00:43:31,075 have that decompression? 1105 00:43:31,835 --> 00:43:33,875 - I don't know. 'cause like I was in a bad spot. 1106 00:43:33,875 --> 00:43:35,915 Like I was in like, the darkest point of my life. 1107 00:43:36,035 --> 00:43:39,075 I mean, it, it was, I don't know. 1108 00:43:39,315 --> 00:43:43,515 I, you know, yeah. I, I, that's a good question. 1109 00:43:43,595 --> 00:43:44,835 I mean, like, yeah. 1110 00:43:44,835 --> 00:43:47,835 - And that then that's, these are the, the things I love 1111 00:43:47,835 --> 00:43:49,115 to ponder over and think about 1112 00:43:49,115 --> 00:43:50,755 because this is such a crucial, 1113 00:43:53,535 --> 00:43:54,575 a crucial turning point. 1114 00:43:54,685 --> 00:43:59,475 Yeah. Because I don't, though, you're not a member on paper, 1115 00:44:00,175 --> 00:44:03,435 you're being the truest to yourself and many members are. 1116 00:44:04,035 --> 00:44:05,225 Right. I, I think a lot 1117 00:44:05,225 --> 00:44:06,945 of people get caught up in the culture of the church 1118 00:44:07,005 --> 00:44:09,465 and they think, well, every, everybody goes to church 1119 00:44:09,485 --> 00:44:12,225 and , but, you know, in their private lives, 1120 00:44:12,225 --> 00:44:13,265 they're not reading the scriptures. 1121 00:44:13,265 --> 00:44:15,745 They're not, you know, really focused there, 1122 00:44:15,765 --> 00:44:17,505 but it fits into their day-to-day culture. 1123 00:44:17,505 --> 00:44:19,545 Right. And I don't mean to make a general statement about 1124 00:44:19,685 --> 00:44:21,545 the membership of the church, but, um, 1125 00:44:23,175 --> 00:44:25,555 but you recognized what you believed and where you're at, 1126 00:44:25,575 --> 00:44:27,155 and you made, you took a decision. 1127 00:44:27,255 --> 00:44:30,475 And now maybe some of those decisions were more has hastily, 1128 00:44:31,665 --> 00:44:32,665 - You know? 1129 00:44:33,025 --> 00:44:34,755 Yeah. And I'm just thinking about, you know, 1130 00:44:34,755 --> 00:44:36,715 like your question, like, maybe, maybe it would've been a 1131 00:44:36,715 --> 00:44:38,555 good thing to be released from the bishop brick. 1132 00:44:39,215 --> 00:44:40,275 But then again, I mean, like, 1133 00:44:40,275 --> 00:44:41,675 there's such a stigma with that. 1134 00:44:41,835 --> 00:44:43,675 I mean, it's like, oh, like what did he do ? 1135 00:44:43,675 --> 00:44:44,795 You know? But that's the thing. 1136 00:44:44,795 --> 00:44:47,715 Like when, when I was, I don't know that there was anything 1137 00:44:47,715 --> 00:44:50,635 that could've taken that pressure off Yeah. 1138 00:44:50,865 --> 00:44:53,155 Once it, once it built up, you know? But I, I don't know. 1139 00:44:53,185 --> 00:44:54,675 It's hard to, yeah. 1140 00:44:54,855 --> 00:44:59,595 You know, I, 'cause honestly like stepping away, um, for, 1141 00:44:59,695 --> 00:45:02,475 for, you know, a few months, um, like I just, 1142 00:45:02,635 --> 00:45:05,555 I feel just better, you know, like, and I'm not, and 1143 00:45:05,875 --> 00:45:08,075 - Stepping away, you don't mean resigning. 1144 00:45:08,195 --> 00:45:09,835 I don't want people to think like, no, you know, 1145 00:45:09,835 --> 00:45:11,475 resigning helped because it helped me step away. 1146 00:45:11,615 --> 00:45:13,835 But you've just, it's been a way 1147 00:45:13,855 --> 00:45:15,355 that's forced you to step away. 1148 00:45:15,385 --> 00:45:16,435 - Yeah, exactly. I mean, like, 1149 00:45:16,675 --> 00:45:18,515 'cause you know, like when you're struggling with doubts 1150 00:45:18,515 --> 00:45:20,515 and you're in the bishoprick, I mean, I, I don't know 1151 00:45:20,515 --> 00:45:22,835 what other words are like, but in the leeward, I mean, like, 1152 00:45:22,835 --> 00:45:24,515 you're getting called multiple times a week 1153 00:45:24,575 --> 00:45:27,235 during the week to give blessings. Um, you're 1154 00:45:27,375 --> 00:45:28,515 - To give rides to - Yeah. 1155 00:45:28,515 --> 00:45:29,475 To give rides. Like, there's just 1156 00:45:29,475 --> 00:45:30,515 a lot of needs and Yeah. Or 1157 00:45:30,515 --> 00:45:32,635 - In the inner city, it's, it's, there's a lot going 1158 00:45:32,635 --> 00:45:33,635 - On. 1159 00:45:33,635 --> 00:45:34,995 Yeah. And, and so like, you're, you're giving blessings 1160 00:45:34,995 --> 00:45:37,155 or you're like, you're, you're going over to people's homes 1161 00:45:37,155 --> 00:45:38,435 that are really struggling and like, 1162 00:45:38,435 --> 00:45:39,475 you're like, man, I'm struggling too. 1163 00:45:39,495 --> 00:45:40,795 You know, but you're trying to like, 1164 00:45:40,795 --> 00:45:42,275 build them up and like Yeah. 1165 00:45:42,345 --> 00:45:45,155 Help people. And it was just, that was difficult for me. 1166 00:45:45,635 --> 00:45:46,755 'cause I was, you know, like 1167 00:45:46,795 --> 00:45:47,835 I didn't want to be inauthentic. 1168 00:45:48,035 --> 00:45:51,985 I didn't want to like, pretend it, it was important to me 1169 00:45:51,985 --> 00:45:54,145 to not pretend that like I was a 1170 00:45:54,145 --> 00:45:55,225 strong believer if I wasn't. 1171 00:45:55,285 --> 00:45:56,585 So, yeah. You know, 1172 00:45:56,965 --> 00:46:00,585 - You know, there's this, uh, there's this, uh, 1173 00:46:00,695 --> 00:46:02,305 this book, I had never, I haven't read it. 1174 00:46:02,305 --> 00:46:05,905 It's above my pay grade, uh, called Anti-Fragile. 1175 00:46:06,165 --> 00:46:08,505 And it's this concept of being anti-fragile, you know? 1176 00:46:08,725 --> 00:46:10,145 Uh, you have to, you have 1177 00:46:10,145 --> 00:46:12,505 to tear your muscle in order to build muscle. 1178 00:46:12,505 --> 00:46:14,145 Right? Yeah. And, and, 1179 00:46:14,995 --> 00:46:16,415 and all goes back to this balance 1180 00:46:16,465 --> 00:46:18,335 where I feel like sometimes we try 1181 00:46:18,335 --> 00:46:22,095 and be so strong, we try to be so convinced 1182 00:46:22,975 --> 00:46:25,675 of the gospel that we got kind of go down the path. 1183 00:46:25,695 --> 00:46:28,475 You do, I'm gonna fast, fast more, I'm gonna pray more. 1184 00:46:28,475 --> 00:46:29,475 I'm gonna go to the temple more. 1185 00:46:29,855 --> 00:46:34,075 And in reality, pushing that way, rather than stepping back, 1186 00:46:35,195 --> 00:46:36,835 actually, man, 1187 00:46:37,575 --> 00:46:39,275 and I don't, I'm not trying to sound controversial. 1188 00:46:39,505 --> 00:46:41,555 Yeah. I'm saying like, well, maybe you should just go out 1189 00:46:41,755 --> 00:46:43,475 and tell people to stop coming to church, whatever. 1190 00:46:43,535 --> 00:46:47,005 But how can we get, as leaders, how can we get members 1191 00:46:47,005 --> 00:46:50,245 that are in this state to just step back 1192 00:46:50,245 --> 00:46:51,405 and take a break for a minute? 1193 00:46:51,715 --> 00:46:53,845 Yeah. And that, and that doesn't mean like, you ask them, 1194 00:46:53,845 --> 00:46:55,805 okay, we need you to not come to church for six weeks. 1195 00:46:56,315 --> 00:46:59,895 - Yeah. - But if I was to go back again, we're, 1196 00:46:59,895 --> 00:47:01,655 this is more of analysis of me and, 1197 00:47:01,655 --> 00:47:03,575 and my leadership style and how I approach it. 1198 00:47:03,575 --> 00:47:06,375 Because hopefully, uh, leaders listening can analyze this. 1199 00:47:06,395 --> 00:47:09,535 But how can we approach these, these members that are going 1200 00:47:09,535 --> 00:47:12,215 through this doubt and just saying, I just want you 1201 00:47:12,215 --> 00:47:13,815 to stop praying about it for a minute. 1202 00:47:14,655 --> 00:47:16,025 Give certitude a rest. 1203 00:47:16,575 --> 00:47:21,445 - Yeah. - And just come to church, like, do nothing else, 1204 00:47:21,585 --> 00:47:24,605 but just come to church, sit in the back. 1205 00:47:25,155 --> 00:47:28,125 Yeah. And just take it in. Yeah. Right. Yeah. 1206 00:47:28,125 --> 00:47:30,050 Don't, don't try to be a a hundred percent home teacher. 1207 00:47:30,215 --> 00:47:31,405 Don't try to to go. 1208 00:47:31,405 --> 00:47:32,245 If you don't wanna go to the second 1209 00:47:32,245 --> 00:47:33,085 hour, don't go to the second hour. 1210 00:47:33,085 --> 00:47:33,925 If you don't wanna go to the third hour, 1211 00:47:33,925 --> 00:47:34,645 don't go to third hour. 1212 00:47:34,795 --> 00:47:37,565 Yeah. Just come to church. Take in what you can. 1213 00:47:38,185 --> 00:47:40,205 Go home and just love your family. Yeah, 1214 00:47:40,555 --> 00:47:41,555 - Yeah, yeah. 1215 00:47:41,555 --> 00:47:42,725 I mean, yeah. 1216 00:47:42,925 --> 00:47:45,525 'cause I mean, I, I, I was driving myself crazy 1217 00:47:45,705 --> 00:47:48,085 and I was making myself incredibly depressed, 1218 00:47:48,835 --> 00:47:52,035 just trying to let you know Yeah. 1219 00:47:52,035 --> 00:47:53,115 Like, I, I have to get the 1220 00:47:53,115 --> 00:47:54,355 answer and I need it now, you know? Yeah. 1221 00:47:54,355 --> 00:47:55,675 - And you're pushing, pushing, pushing. Yeah. 1222 00:47:55,675 --> 00:47:57,195 And then that thought came through your mind, 1223 00:47:57,425 --> 00:47:58,675 well, maybe it isn't true. 1224 00:47:59,105 --> 00:48:02,315 Yeah. And that was suddenly the easier path. Yeah. 1225 00:48:02,935 --> 00:48:04,195 And that was the answer. 1226 00:48:04,345 --> 00:48:06,475 That was, that was the only answer coming at that point. 1227 00:48:06,475 --> 00:48:07,835 So I'm gonna take it. Right. 1228 00:48:07,835 --> 00:48:09,555 - Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, I, 1229 00:48:09,995 --> 00:48:12,235 I was not comfortable then at all with uncertainty. 1230 00:48:13,315 --> 00:48:15,805 Yeah. But I really believed that, like, 1231 00:48:16,105 --> 00:48:17,205 - Man, that's such a powerful 1232 00:48:17,205 --> 00:48:18,405 statement, Heath, listen to that. 1233 00:48:18,805 --> 00:48:20,845 I was not comfortable with uncertainty. Yeah. 1234 00:48:20,985 --> 00:48:24,565 And I think if, if members can cannot say 1235 00:48:24,565 --> 00:48:26,245 that there's a problem. 1236 00:48:26,875 --> 00:48:30,365 Yeah. Because Heath, I, I promise you right now, I'm, 1237 00:48:30,385 --> 00:48:34,065 I'm pretty certain I, I've had such remarkable experiences 1238 00:48:34,165 --> 00:48:37,845 as a leader, and when I stand up in state conference, and, 1239 00:48:37,865 --> 00:48:41,875 and I, I bear my testimony, there's, 1240 00:48:41,875 --> 00:48:44,955 there's some statements of certitude there of, of hyperbole. 1241 00:48:45,105 --> 00:48:48,695 Yeah. But 1242 00:48:49,665 --> 00:48:52,875 that doesn't mean everybody's experience has to, has to be 1243 00:48:52,875 --> 00:48:55,315 that, or everybody's path to certitude needs to be there, 1244 00:48:55,495 --> 00:48:57,115 nor is the goal certitude. 1245 00:48:57,385 --> 00:48:58,395 Yeah. And I, 1246 00:48:58,395 --> 00:49:01,475 and I feel so much that we, we blind ourselves by thinking, 1247 00:49:02,075 --> 00:49:03,795 I need to be able to the standup 1248 00:49:03,795 --> 00:49:05,035 and sacra meaning, and say, I know. 1249 00:49:05,155 --> 00:49:08,075 I know, I know. And then I get a, a star on my forehead 1250 00:49:08,075 --> 00:49:09,555 and I sit down and I say, I'm one of you. 1251 00:49:09,765 --> 00:49:13,185 Right? Yeah. And so, going back that, 1252 00:49:13,775 --> 00:49:15,185 what was it? What was the statement that 1253 00:49:15,465 --> 00:49:17,305 - I I wasn't comfortable with uncertainty. 1254 00:49:17,585 --> 00:49:19,705 - I wasn't, we have to be un we have 1255 00:49:19,705 --> 00:49:21,145 to be comfortable with uncertainty. 1256 00:49:21,145 --> 00:49:23,785 Yeah. We have to be that as leaders, we have 1257 00:49:23,785 --> 00:49:26,305 to be uncomfortable with a gospel doctrine teacher 1258 00:49:26,305 --> 00:49:28,145 that stands up, that is uncertain about things. 1259 00:49:28,565 --> 00:49:32,025 We have to be, we have to be comfortable with a, 1260 00:49:32,305 --> 00:49:33,665 a counselor in the bishoprick 1261 00:49:33,665 --> 00:49:34,745 that is uncertain about things. 1262 00:49:34,935 --> 00:49:37,425 - Yeah. You know, um, um, I've told you, you know, one 1263 00:49:37,425 --> 00:49:40,665 of the podcasts I listened to is, um, secular Buddhism. 1264 00:49:41,205 --> 00:49:43,985 Um, and the guy that does the podcast was actually, um, 1265 00:49:44,495 --> 00:49:46,065 like a AP in my mission. 1266 00:49:46,405 --> 00:49:47,505 Um, oh, and e 1267 00:49:47,505 --> 00:49:48,745 - Ecuador, is he still a member of the church? Or 1268 00:49:48,805 --> 00:49:49,945 - He, he says he is, um, 1269 00:49:50,125 --> 00:49:51,785 he put on a workshop here in Salt Lake, 1270 00:49:51,805 --> 00:49:53,785 and I went to it, um, like last December. 1271 00:49:54,485 --> 00:49:59,355 Um, and, uh, it honestly, like, it was, it was amazing 1272 00:49:59,415 --> 00:50:00,915 and it brought so much peace to me. 1273 00:50:00,915 --> 00:50:02,875 Like after the workshop, like I just, 1274 00:50:03,095 --> 00:50:04,755 for a couple days I couldn't talk about anything else, 1275 00:50:04,775 --> 00:50:06,075 you know, like with my wife, just, 1276 00:50:06,215 --> 00:50:07,555 but one, like one thing 1277 00:50:07,555 --> 00:50:10,915 that I've learned from like the secular Buddhism, um, is 1278 00:50:10,915 --> 00:50:13,995 that like, you know, like what's important is like the here 1279 00:50:14,055 --> 00:50:15,275 and the now, like this life. 1280 00:50:15,275 --> 00:50:17,255 Like, and, and, you know, 1281 00:50:17,375 --> 00:50:19,735 'cause I think I, I don't know anything about Buddhism, 1282 00:50:19,795 --> 00:50:21,815 but like I've, you know, I've listened to this podcast 1283 00:50:22,075 --> 00:50:24,215 and, you know, and I, I've tried to learn, and, 1284 00:50:24,315 --> 00:50:25,855 and one of my clients is Buddhist temple. 1285 00:50:25,915 --> 00:50:26,935 And so I've spent hours 1286 00:50:26,985 --> 00:50:30,445 and hours talking, um, with my client, you know, 1287 00:50:30,445 --> 00:50:31,605 about Buddhism and stuff. 1288 00:50:31,625 --> 00:50:33,285 And one of the, one of the things 1289 00:50:33,285 --> 00:50:34,685 that I've taken away from Buddhism 1290 00:50:34,705 --> 00:50:36,685 and, um, you know, not that this is like their core 1291 00:50:36,885 --> 00:50:38,645 teaching, but like, to be okay, 1292 00:50:38,645 --> 00:50:39,805 they're okay with uncertainty. 1293 00:50:39,805 --> 00:50:41,685 Like, they're not so worried about, like, 1294 00:50:41,785 --> 00:50:44,805 at least from my point of view, like, um, you know, 1295 00:50:44,805 --> 00:50:45,845 having all the answers. 1296 00:50:46,555 --> 00:50:48,805 It's just like you can't control what the truth is. 1297 00:50:48,905 --> 00:50:51,165 You can't control what is after this life 1298 00:50:51,425 --> 00:50:52,805 and what isn't after this life. 1299 00:50:53,185 --> 00:50:54,645 You, you can't control any of it. 1300 00:50:54,745 --> 00:50:58,725 So, you know, like, kind of like, and that's okay. 1301 00:50:58,725 --> 00:51:00,925 And like, you know, and, and like, all you know, is like, 1302 00:51:01,235 --> 00:51:02,325 this is what you have and, 1303 00:51:02,465 --> 00:51:04,645 and, you know, kind of cherish the present moment 1304 00:51:04,745 --> 00:51:06,045 and don't get yourself 1305 00:51:06,065 --> 00:51:08,085 so worked up about like, what's coming next. 1306 00:51:08,195 --> 00:51:10,005 Yeah. And, and that really helped me. 1307 00:51:10,425 --> 00:51:13,655 Um, you know, just, yeah. 1308 00:51:13,855 --> 00:51:16,655 'cause I, I think that, you know, like Yeah. 1309 00:51:16,655 --> 00:51:17,695 It's, it's about, you know, 1310 00:51:17,925 --> 00:51:19,895 it's okay to not have all the answers. Yeah. 1311 00:51:20,475 --> 00:51:21,775 - In the cur culture of the church. 1312 00:51:21,855 --> 00:51:25,095 I feel like we sometimes almost brag about that certitude, 1313 00:51:25,385 --> 00:51:26,385 - Right? 1314 00:51:26,385 --> 00:51:28,695 Yeah. Well, the one true church, right. Um, 1315 00:51:29,475 --> 00:51:31,015 - And I'm, again, I'm not trying 1316 00:51:31,015 --> 00:51:32,135 to make this controversial podcast. 1317 00:51:32,495 --> 00:51:33,655 I am here to believe, I, 1318 00:51:33,735 --> 00:51:35,775 I truly believe this is the one true church, 1319 00:51:35,875 --> 00:51:36,935 but how do we define that? 1320 00:51:37,165 --> 00:51:38,735 Yeah. And sometimes we define a way that 1321 00:51:38,735 --> 00:51:40,415 that means nobody else is true. 1322 00:51:40,595 --> 00:51:42,535 Church is true at all. Right? Yeah. 1323 00:51:42,995 --> 00:51:44,895 And so it's, it's, 1324 00:51:44,895 --> 00:51:47,055 and it's, these statements as leaders is similar to the, 1325 00:51:47,055 --> 00:51:49,735 the article I wrote about the, your, um, 1326 00:51:50,325 --> 00:51:51,535 your without a shadow of, 1327 00:51:51,535 --> 00:51:53,335 without testimonies hurting your leadership. 1328 00:51:53,355 --> 00:51:55,615 And this is what I'm talking about is when we stand there 1329 00:51:56,195 --> 00:51:59,055 and we, we, we talk with such conviction 1330 00:51:59,075 --> 00:52:01,615 and certitude, those without conviction 1331 00:52:01,615 --> 00:52:03,655 and certitude think that they haven't, 1332 00:52:03,655 --> 00:52:04,775 they've done something wrong and they 1333 00:52:04,775 --> 00:52:05,935 haven't ri arrived, right? 1334 00:52:06,045 --> 00:52:08,335 Yeah. And so, but if we stand there 1335 00:52:08,355 --> 00:52:10,215 and let the board members know that we're okay 1336 00:52:10,215 --> 00:52:13,135 with our own uncertainty, they'll be okay 1337 00:52:13,135 --> 00:52:15,135 with their uncertainty, and then they'll come back. 1338 00:52:15,345 --> 00:52:17,575 Right? Yeah. And I would be foolish to say 1339 00:52:17,575 --> 00:52:20,055 that I'm certain about every last principle of the gospel, 1340 00:52:20,145 --> 00:52:22,815 every last, uh, part of history that's happened because, 1341 00:52:23,135 --> 00:52:24,895 'cause I'm not, I don't, I, I mean, I'm not a, 1342 00:52:24,995 --> 00:52:26,615 I'm not a scholar, I'm not an intellectual. 1343 00:52:27,175 --> 00:52:30,495 I, I can't talk myself out of any, any question, but 1344 00:52:30,495 --> 00:52:33,095 nonetheless, something is calling me Yeah. 1345 00:52:33,195 --> 00:52:36,615 To this, to this church, to this gospel to Joseph Smith 1346 00:52:36,615 --> 00:52:37,855 and who he was and Yeah. 1347 00:52:39,135 --> 00:52:42,515 But, um, but sometimes that, that posture of, of, 1348 00:52:42,655 --> 00:52:44,275 of the one true church sometimes 1349 00:52:45,005 --> 00:52:48,515 hurts other individuals trying to, to arrive there. 1350 00:52:48,595 --> 00:52:49,795 I I hope I'm making sense. 1351 00:52:49,825 --> 00:52:52,435 - Yeah, no, you are. You know, and I, I've I've told you, 1352 00:52:52,435 --> 00:52:54,315 you know, like, I haven't forgotten about like, 1353 00:52:54,415 --> 00:52:56,715 the spiritual experiences I had, you know, 1354 00:52:56,715 --> 00:52:59,875 like in the church, like my mission was amazing. 1355 00:52:59,905 --> 00:53:02,195 Like, I, it was, it really was the best two years. 1356 00:53:02,455 --> 00:53:05,495 You know, like I, um, you know, 1357 00:53:05,495 --> 00:53:07,375 and I, there's so many good memories of the church 1358 00:53:07,475 --> 00:53:09,305 and, you know, that I, 1359 00:53:09,305 --> 00:53:10,545 that I hold onto, like, you really do. 1360 00:53:10,545 --> 00:53:13,185 Like, I, you feel good going to church, you know, 1361 00:53:13,185 --> 00:53:14,665 like if I, yeah. 1362 00:53:14,745 --> 00:53:16,305 I mean, there's a good feeling there for sure. 1363 00:53:16,565 --> 00:53:19,145 And like the good people, like, I, you know, like I love, 1364 00:53:19,805 --> 00:53:21,225 you know, members of the church. 1365 00:53:21,965 --> 00:53:24,175 Um, and that's the thing, like, 1366 00:53:24,175 --> 00:53:25,685 I miss it, you know, know, like, Mm-Hmm. 1367 00:53:25,725 --> 00:53:28,725 , the, the, like, the times, you know, 1368 00:53:28,725 --> 00:53:29,925 in the last few months where like, 1369 00:53:29,925 --> 00:53:31,885 I've really regretted like resigning is 1370 00:53:31,885 --> 00:53:34,645 because like, you know, somebody that I really respect 1371 00:53:34,665 --> 00:53:37,245 or, you know, like a peer, um, has like invited me 1372 00:53:37,245 --> 00:53:39,325 to dinner, you know, and they're LDS 1373 00:53:39,325 --> 00:53:42,865 and, um, you know, like, it's just, they, you know, 1374 00:53:42,865 --> 00:53:44,065 nobody knows I resigned. 1375 00:53:44,265 --> 00:53:45,345 'cause it's not like I don't, yeah. 1376 00:53:45,545 --> 00:53:46,825 I just don't talk about it, you know? Right. 1377 00:53:46,885 --> 00:53:48,025 And I'm not trying to hide it, 1378 00:53:48,565 --> 00:53:51,145 but, um, you know, like I've gone to dinner 1379 00:53:51,145 --> 00:53:52,225 with people I really respect 1380 00:53:52,225 --> 00:53:54,525 and they're, you know, they're, you know, 1381 00:53:54,525 --> 00:53:56,405 leaders in their wards and stakes and stuff. 1382 00:53:56,405 --> 00:53:59,445 And I just like, man, like, you know, I, I regret, 1383 00:54:00,105 --> 00:54:03,005 or I, I don't know, like, I just, I don't know. 1384 00:54:03,005 --> 00:54:04,965 It's like I'm not trying to hide the fact that I resigned, 1385 00:54:04,965 --> 00:54:06,485 and I would totally openly tell them 1386 00:54:06,515 --> 00:54:07,845 that I resigned if they asked me 1387 00:54:07,875 --> 00:54:09,005 like, oh, what's your calling now? 1388 00:54:09,005 --> 00:54:10,725 You know, like, I would not try to hide it at all, 1389 00:54:10,725 --> 00:54:12,485 but like, I'm just kind 1390 00:54:12,485 --> 00:54:13,845 of secretly hoping it doesn't come up, 1391 00:54:13,845 --> 00:54:15,205 because I think like, if they found out, 1392 00:54:15,205 --> 00:54:16,605 like their opinion on me would change, 1393 00:54:16,605 --> 00:54:17,885 and like, I'd lose that relationship. 1394 00:54:17,905 --> 00:54:20,925 And I don't, I just, I miss those relationships, you know? 1395 00:54:20,925 --> 00:54:22,565 And like, I, I miss coming to church 1396 00:54:22,665 --> 00:54:24,565 and I miss being with people 1397 00:54:24,665 --> 00:54:26,365 and having that connection. Yeah. 1398 00:54:26,915 --> 00:54:29,525 - Yeah. That's awesome. I remember one, uh, during one 1399 00:54:29,525 --> 00:54:32,235 of our lunches, you said something that really, 1400 00:54:32,415 --> 00:54:35,955 really stood out to me is, you know, as you've sort 1401 00:54:35,955 --> 00:54:37,195 of gotten to a better place 1402 00:54:37,255 --> 00:54:39,595 and you've been struggling still with some 1403 00:54:39,595 --> 00:54:42,985 of these historical facts that still bother you and things, 1404 00:54:43,045 --> 00:54:45,225 but you've kind of discovered, 1405 00:54:45,625 --> 00:54:47,465 discovered other people have put them them aside and, 1406 00:54:47,465 --> 00:54:49,265 and are still believing and Yeah. 1407 00:54:49,525 --> 00:54:52,785 Um, and you said to me, what if, well, what if it's just a, 1408 00:54:52,815 --> 00:54:54,425 what if it really is just about Christ? 1409 00:54:54,775 --> 00:54:58,365 Yeah. And when you said that kinda stopped you, 1410 00:54:58,385 --> 00:55:02,325 and I said, Heath, it is just about Christ, you know, 1411 00:55:02,425 --> 00:55:03,965 and Sure. 1412 00:55:04,085 --> 00:55:06,365 I mean, the Lord has its way his, his his, uh, 1413 00:55:07,255 --> 00:55:08,995 his pattern th through prophets. 1414 00:55:09,065 --> 00:55:10,955 Yeah. And by saying 1415 00:55:10,955 --> 00:55:12,995 that it doesn't diminish Joseph Smith's role 1416 00:55:13,015 --> 00:55:16,645 or brig Young's role, or, but it truly is about Christ. 1417 00:55:17,315 --> 00:55:19,605 Yeah. And, uh, his grace and, 1418 00:55:19,945 --> 00:55:24,195 and that I'm no father further along the path than you are. 1419 00:55:24,625 --> 00:55:27,035 Yeah. Though, on paper, I have some ordinances, 1420 00:55:27,035 --> 00:55:29,755 and those ordinances are helping me, uh, progress. 1421 00:55:29,855 --> 00:55:31,875 But we're, we're all in this together. 1422 00:55:31,875 --> 00:55:33,155 We're all learning in our different paths. 1423 00:55:33,175 --> 00:55:36,115 And, and you know, I think right now, the, some 1424 00:55:36,115 --> 00:55:37,755 of these decisions you've made, um, 1425 00:55:39,105 --> 00:55:40,405 or they've been done in haste, but, 1426 00:55:40,585 --> 00:55:42,125 but I think we can always go back to like, 1427 00:55:42,125 --> 00:55:43,205 Christ is still there and his, 1428 00:55:43,465 --> 00:55:44,725 his atonement still works for you. 1429 00:55:45,075 --> 00:55:47,125 Yeah. You know, you, you always have that option of, 1430 00:55:47,265 --> 00:55:50,125 of coming back and returning to the church, right? 1431 00:55:50,515 --> 00:55:54,965 - Yeah. Well, yeah, I honestly, like, I I told you, um, 1432 00:55:55,785 --> 00:55:57,565 uh, when we were out to lunch like that, uh, 1433 00:55:57,755 --> 00:56:00,365 like I'd read this story of somebody that had resigned 1434 00:56:00,385 --> 00:56:03,045 and came back and it was like two and a half year process 1435 00:56:03,225 --> 00:56:04,885 or something, and I was just like, oh, man. 1436 00:56:04,885 --> 00:56:06,525 Like, I didn't know. I didn't know. 1437 00:56:06,525 --> 00:56:08,165 Like that's what it was. And I, I don't 1438 00:56:08,225 --> 00:56:10,085 - You expect to be shorter or, or longer, or 1439 00:56:10,285 --> 00:56:11,405 - I thought, I thought like when I was ready 1440 00:56:11,405 --> 00:56:12,605 to come back, I'd just come talk to you. 1441 00:56:12,625 --> 00:56:14,045 Or, you know, like my bishop like, 1442 00:56:14,045 --> 00:56:15,365 all right, you know, let's do this. 1443 00:56:15,455 --> 00:56:16,845 - Build the font. They're like, okay. 1444 00:56:16,845 --> 00:56:18,645 - Like, yep, you're ready to go. Let's baptize you. 1445 00:56:18,645 --> 00:56:20,045 But it's not like, I mean, I get, I, 1446 00:56:20,045 --> 00:56:23,165 and honestly, like all I did, I read one person's story and, 1447 00:56:23,225 --> 00:56:25,125 and I don't know if it's, you know, really how it is 1448 00:56:25,145 --> 00:56:26,565 or if it's changed or whatnot, 1449 00:56:26,585 --> 00:56:29,675 but from what I understand, like it takes like a year. 1450 00:56:29,865 --> 00:56:31,595 Yeah. You gotta come to church for like a year 1451 00:56:31,615 --> 00:56:33,195 and like keep all the commandments and everything, 1452 00:56:33,215 --> 00:56:35,945 and then like, um, you know, 1453 00:56:35,945 --> 00:56:38,025 confess all your sins while you resigned and everything. 1454 00:56:38,025 --> 00:56:40,425 And then after a year you can get rebaptized, and then 1455 00:56:40,425 --> 00:56:43,745 after another year, um, you can get like your temple, 1456 00:56:44,405 --> 00:56:45,665 - The temple blessings - Restored. 1457 00:56:45,865 --> 00:56:47,185 Restored. Yeah. And, and I think it, you know, 1458 00:56:47,215 --> 00:56:49,625 what I read was it involves some letters to like, you know, 1459 00:56:49,625 --> 00:56:51,865 church headquarters and like the first presidency, you know? 1460 00:56:51,865 --> 00:56:53,505 Mm-Hmm. of all your sins and stuff. 1461 00:56:53,525 --> 00:56:55,345 And they make a determination whether you can come back 1462 00:56:55,365 --> 00:56:57,385 and that's pretty serious. 1463 00:56:57,445 --> 00:56:58,465 You know, like, I don't know. 1464 00:56:58,505 --> 00:57:00,425 I didn't know that that's what it was. Yeah. 1465 00:57:00,965 --> 00:57:04,255 - And when you said that to me, I'm just so, I'm 1466 00:57:04,255 --> 00:57:06,535 so happy you're thinking about it, , , 1467 00:57:07,075 --> 00:57:08,615 and again, not that you're, you know, 1468 00:57:08,615 --> 00:57:09,735 thinking about it every day or whatever, 1469 00:57:09,755 --> 00:57:12,015 but you know, it's an option, man. 1470 00:57:12,015 --> 00:57:16,075 And, and, uh, and like we talked about at our, 1471 00:57:16,075 --> 00:57:17,275 at our lunches, that, um, 1472 00:57:18,445 --> 00:57:20,785 and you're always welcome here, you know, and, 1473 00:57:20,845 --> 00:57:24,065 and I don't think anybody, especially our ward, uh, 1474 00:57:24,565 --> 00:57:26,345 it turns over every six months, 1475 00:57:26,405 --> 00:57:28,505 so nobody really knows either of us anymore. 1476 00:57:28,605 --> 00:57:32,445 But, um, man, I hope you do just come and gain 1477 00:57:32,945 --> 00:57:34,965 and just be that person that this sit there and, 1478 00:57:34,985 --> 00:57:37,205 and absorb what comes and, 1479 00:57:37,265 --> 00:57:39,645 and, uh, don't worry about the, the, the stress 1480 00:57:39,745 --> 00:57:41,885 of the pressure Yeah. 1481 00:57:42,225 --> 00:57:44,445 Of being that perfect member, right? 1482 00:57:44,755 --> 00:57:47,285 - Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, and it's already been mentioned, 1483 00:57:47,285 --> 00:57:50,375 but like, really, like, it sticks out in my mind. 1484 00:57:50,375 --> 00:57:52,615 Like, you know, there's a person that has a blog, you know, 1485 00:57:52,615 --> 00:57:54,335 and they said that, you know, really, 1486 00:57:54,335 --> 00:57:55,615 they don't care about church history. 1487 00:57:56,005 --> 00:57:57,495 Like they just, they care 1488 00:57:57,495 --> 00:57:58,535 about the good parts of the church. 1489 00:57:58,555 --> 00:58:01,775 And like, I really feel like, like after hearing that, 1490 00:58:01,775 --> 00:58:03,895 and of course I just recently heard that, you know, yeah, 1491 00:58:03,915 --> 00:58:05,095 I'm already resigned, but I was like, huh. 1492 00:58:05,095 --> 00:58:06,895 Like, I could do that now. You know? 1493 00:58:07,055 --> 00:58:08,055 I could be, I could be that more, 1494 00:58:08,195 --> 00:58:12,215 but then I think like, man, like, like a few years ago, 1495 00:58:12,215 --> 00:58:16,495 like if I, I don't know, like, you know, like if I came back 1496 00:58:16,495 --> 00:58:18,535 to church, I might be like the type 1497 00:58:18,535 --> 00:58:20,495 of Mormon I would've hated a couple years ago, you know? 1498 00:58:20,635 --> 00:58:22,945 But, but I dunno. 1499 00:58:23,695 --> 00:58:24,435 - But that's okay. 1500 00:58:24,715 --> 00:58:25,875 , I mean, because that's the thing. 1501 00:58:25,875 --> 00:58:29,555 Like, we, we've gotta be okay with those, those Mormons. 1502 00:58:29,555 --> 00:58:32,435 Like, there's not a Mormon that nobody has Fit Box Yeah. 1503 00:58:32,435 --> 00:58:34,355 To come to church. They just, anybody's welcome here, 1504 00:58:34,405 --> 00:58:35,635 right? Yeah. 1505 00:58:35,865 --> 00:58:39,155 - Yeah. Like when people have like certain, like attitudes 1506 00:58:39,155 --> 00:58:41,115 or things that like, you know, like that problems 1507 00:58:41,115 --> 00:58:42,115 with the church, you know, people are like, 1508 00:58:42,115 --> 00:58:43,195 well, go find another church. 1509 00:58:43,265 --> 00:58:45,035 That was my attitude a couple years ago, 1510 00:58:45,135 --> 00:58:47,545 but I would have a different attitude now. 1511 00:58:47,545 --> 00:58:50,185 You know, like, I think it's good to like, invite people 1512 00:58:50,185 --> 00:58:52,065 to have different perspectives, and that's okay. 1513 00:58:52,085 --> 00:58:54,385 You know? 'cause I don't know. I don't know. 1514 00:58:54,385 --> 00:58:55,385 I don't have any of the answers. 1515 00:58:56,055 --> 00:58:57,985 - Okay. My last question's a tough one. Okay. Yeah. 1516 00:58:58,445 --> 00:59:02,545 Um, will you just share with us like your testimony, 1517 00:59:02,615 --> 00:59:03,665 like where it's at? 1518 00:59:03,685 --> 00:59:05,225 And you, you can say whatever you want, 1519 00:59:05,295 --> 00:59:07,585 even if it's something I would disagree with. Yeah, 1520 00:59:07,825 --> 00:59:08,825 - Absolutely. 1521 00:59:08,825 --> 00:59:11,465 I mean, so I still pray. I, I can't not pray, you know? 1522 00:59:12,165 --> 00:59:15,945 Um, and I pray, um, like somebody's listening, 1523 00:59:16,055 --> 00:59:18,745 even though now I'm not sure somebody is or not, you know? 1524 00:59:19,005 --> 00:59:22,205 And that's the thing. Like, I, I hope there's a God 1525 00:59:22,385 --> 00:59:23,525 and I hope he loves us. 1526 00:59:23,785 --> 00:59:27,525 Um, I, I hope that families, you know, are forever. 1527 00:59:27,985 --> 00:59:31,005 Um, I, you know, I, I hope 1528 00:59:31,005 --> 00:59:32,245 that there's something after this life. 1529 00:59:32,245 --> 00:59:33,645 Like I really want there to be. 1530 00:59:34,225 --> 00:59:35,685 Um, but I just don't know anymore. 1531 00:59:36,225 --> 00:59:38,885 Um, but I, I've come to a point where I'm okay, like, 1532 00:59:38,885 --> 00:59:39,885 I'm okay not knowing. 1533 00:59:40,035 --> 00:59:42,685 Like, I love my family. Um, I love my job. 1534 00:59:43,425 --> 00:59:46,325 Um, you know, like, I, like, 1535 00:59:46,365 --> 00:59:50,005 I really care about being a good person, um, if, you know, 1536 00:59:50,005 --> 00:59:52,205 and like raising my kids to like, be good people 1537 00:59:52,745 --> 00:59:53,885 and to just love others. 1538 00:59:54,625 --> 00:59:58,125 And so, um, I don't know, that's pretty weak. 1539 00:59:58,305 --> 01:00:00,605 But, um, I, you know, like I just, 1540 01:00:00,685 --> 01:00:02,005 I hope, I hope God exists. 1541 01:00:02,165 --> 01:00:04,285 I hope, you know, Christ is there. 1542 01:00:04,365 --> 01:00:06,085 I hope he's listening to my prayers. 1543 01:00:06,225 --> 01:00:08,765 Um, and I hope I can be like, you know, with, 1544 01:00:08,875 --> 01:00:10,565 with my friends and family after this life. 1545 01:00:10,645 --> 01:00:11,725 I really want that to be true. 1546 01:00:20,915 --> 01:00:23,285 - That concludes my interview with Heath Becker. 1547 01:00:23,765 --> 01:00:25,565 I hope many of you that have sat here 1548 01:00:25,565 --> 01:00:27,405 and listened to this episode have thought 1549 01:00:27,405 --> 01:00:28,965 of an individual in your ward, 1550 01:00:29,385 --> 01:00:31,405 or maybe the counselors in your presidency, 1551 01:00:31,865 --> 01:00:34,965 or maybe you've been inspired to reassess 1552 01:00:35,515 --> 01:00:37,245 your perspective on individuals 1553 01:00:37,425 --> 01:00:41,245 who you think have the strongest testimony of certitude. 1554 01:00:41,505 --> 01:00:44,125 And just to conclude this episode, I just want 1555 01:00:44,125 --> 01:00:46,245 to expound a little bit on what I've learned 1556 01:00:46,245 --> 01:00:47,965 through my relationship with Heath. 1557 01:00:48,425 --> 01:00:51,165 And as you can listen, I'm encouraged by 1558 01:00:51,165 --> 01:00:52,245 how he talks about things. 1559 01:00:53,025 --> 01:00:56,005 I'm encouraged that he's actually interested in the process 1560 01:00:56,105 --> 01:00:58,965 of what it takes to become, again, a member 1561 01:00:58,985 --> 01:01:00,605 of the church of Jesus Christ. 1562 01:01:00,945 --> 01:01:03,325 And I hope in the future, there can be a second part 1563 01:01:03,325 --> 01:01:05,765 to this episode talking about his return. 1564 01:01:06,305 --> 01:01:08,205 And if he doesn't, you know, I'll still love Heath 1565 01:01:08,205 --> 01:01:09,605 and his family always. 1566 01:01:10,145 --> 01:01:12,245 And it's obvious that, you know, 1567 01:01:12,245 --> 01:01:14,965 membership in the church is, is not what defines 1568 01:01:15,475 --> 01:01:16,565 love for anybody. 1569 01:01:16,625 --> 01:01:18,365 And, and I think most members of the church would, 1570 01:01:18,365 --> 01:01:21,125 would feel the same way, but consider this quest 1571 01:01:21,265 --> 01:01:23,965 for certitude that we encourage in the church. 1572 01:01:24,465 --> 01:01:25,885 And it's a good quest. 1573 01:01:26,565 --> 01:01:28,445 I feel like I've gone through my own version of 1574 01:01:28,445 --> 01:01:29,925 that quest for certitude. 1575 01:01:30,385 --> 01:01:32,125 And I've had remarkable experiences. 1576 01:01:32,675 --> 01:01:34,205 I've had spiritual experiences. 1577 01:01:34,795 --> 01:01:36,485 I've stood at the lecterns of the church 1578 01:01:36,505 --> 01:01:39,165 and testified in my own way about things 1579 01:01:39,165 --> 01:01:41,085 that I feel pretty certain about. 1580 01:01:41,505 --> 01:01:42,725 Now, I've never seen an angel. 1581 01:01:43,235 --> 01:01:46,285 I've never heard a voice from heaven tell me these things. 1582 01:01:46,545 --> 01:01:50,005 But I have had experiences that in my own way testified 1583 01:01:50,005 --> 01:01:52,605 to my heart that Joseph Smith was in fact, a prophet. 1584 01:01:53,065 --> 01:01:54,085 And that what he did and, 1585 01:01:54,085 --> 01:01:56,045 and translated was the word of God. 1586 01:01:56,505 --> 01:02:00,165 I'm aware of the sticky history, the messy facts that 1587 01:02:00,165 --> 01:02:01,605 for some make that more difficult 1588 01:02:01,605 --> 01:02:04,085 to believe even when they've had a spiritual witness of, 1589 01:02:04,185 --> 01:02:06,845 in some form, in some way, whether strong or weak. 1590 01:02:07,345 --> 01:02:10,005 And I don't think anybody, any leader in the church, 1591 01:02:10,065 --> 01:02:12,925 as they stand and testify boldly are meaning 1592 01:02:12,945 --> 01:02:16,165 to diminish others, when in fact, those words 1593 01:02:16,225 --> 01:02:19,340 of power sometime build up others and testify to, to others. 1594 01:02:19,985 --> 01:02:22,085 And for me personally, I've sort of just discovered 1595 01:02:22,085 --> 01:02:24,805 through this relationship with Heath, this paradox 1596 01:02:24,805 --> 01:02:27,205 that happens with a bold testimony. 1597 01:02:27,665 --> 01:02:32,085 It can build some, but at the same time alienate others. 1598 01:02:32,665 --> 01:02:35,165 And in no way am I calling that across the board, 1599 01:02:35,165 --> 01:02:38,565 we water down testimony so that they don't alienate anybody. 1600 01:02:38,725 --> 01:02:41,245 I, I think they definitely do more good than, than bad. 1601 01:02:41,265 --> 01:02:43,205 And it's not about testimony per se, 1602 01:02:43,205 --> 01:02:45,565 but it's about being aware of individuals 1603 01:02:45,565 --> 01:02:46,885 who hear those testimonies 1604 01:02:47,105 --> 01:02:51,325 and crave to own one themselves, that crave the certitude 1605 01:02:51,595 --> 01:02:53,285 that people like myself experience. 1606 01:02:53,825 --> 01:02:54,885 And I'd be foolish to say 1607 01:02:54,885 --> 01:02:56,365 that I'm a hundred percent certain, 1608 01:02:56,785 --> 01:02:58,925 but boy, am I certainly convinced. 1609 01:02:59,345 --> 01:03:00,725 So consider the individuals 1610 01:03:00,725 --> 01:03:03,085 that are doubting in your ward or in your group. 1611 01:03:03,725 --> 01:03:05,285 Consider the relationship you have with them. 1612 01:03:05,705 --> 01:03:07,685 And when they're begging from their knees, from a, 1613 01:03:07,785 --> 01:03:11,085 for a spiritual witness above all other witnesses 1614 01:03:11,085 --> 01:03:12,605 that will convince their heart that 1615 01:03:12,605 --> 01:03:14,125 of the truthfulness of this gospel. 1616 01:03:14,665 --> 01:03:16,445 And for some reason it hasn't come in 1617 01:03:16,445 --> 01:03:17,565 the way that they've thought. 1618 01:03:17,565 --> 01:03:20,245 Maybe it has come, but not in the way that they expected. 1619 01:03:20,305 --> 01:03:21,845 And so they're, they're not ready 1620 01:03:21,905 --> 01:03:24,885 to accept maybe those messages, those spiritual witnesses 1621 01:03:24,885 --> 01:03:27,805 that come, or maybe it hasn't come yet for some reason. 1622 01:03:28,225 --> 01:03:31,165 How can we help them just step back for a minute 1623 01:03:31,785 --> 01:03:34,005 and give their quest for certitude a break? 1624 01:03:34,195 --> 01:03:37,605 Because that very quest of certitude is what is leading them 1625 01:03:38,025 --> 01:03:39,045 to uncertainty. 1626 01:03:39,595 --> 01:03:43,205 This is the great paradox of leadership, is to encourage 1627 01:03:43,305 --> 01:03:46,645 and challenge and push, push, push to become greater 1628 01:03:46,665 --> 01:03:48,765 and become more, and to accomplish things 1629 01:03:48,975 --> 01:03:50,125 above our capacity, 1630 01:03:50,585 --> 01:03:53,805 but at the same time, not diminishing them 1631 01:03:54,025 --> 01:03:56,285 and discouraging them and giving them more 1632 01:03:56,345 --> 01:03:58,645 and more examples of why they don't measure up. 1633 01:03:59,165 --> 01:04:00,765 I don't have the answer to that. 1634 01:04:00,865 --> 01:04:03,565 And, and I don't think this episode was meant to give 1635 01:04:03,565 --> 01:04:06,685 that answer, but maybe spend some time pondering over 1636 01:04:07,145 --> 01:04:09,485 how can we encourage individuals to try the quest 1637 01:04:09,545 --> 01:04:12,325 for certainty without discouraging them 1638 01:04:12,625 --> 01:04:15,605 and putting too much stress on them to get there today. 1639 01:04:16,265 --> 01:04:18,005 I'd love your feedback. I'd love your thoughts 1640 01:04:18,185 --> 01:04:19,485 and perspectives that you've had 1641 01:04:19,485 --> 01:04:20,685 during this, this interview. 1642 01:04:21,165 --> 01:04:23,605 I know I've been, been blessed by my relationship with Heath 1643 01:04:23,605 --> 01:04:24,645 and his family and, and 1644 01:04:24,645 --> 01:04:26,045 understanding what they're going through. 1645 01:04:26,585 --> 01:04:27,685 And I hope now 1646 01:04:27,685 --> 01:04:29,565 that you've heard his story, you've been blessed as well. 1647 01:04:30,465 --> 01:04:32,885 And that concludes this throwback episode 1648 01:04:32,905 --> 01:04:34,285 of the Leading Saints Podcast. 1649 01:04:35,025 --> 01:04:36,965 Now that we've reached the end of the episode, 1650 01:04:37,285 --> 01:04:38,325 I quickly wanna thank you 1651 01:04:38,345 --> 01:04:40,285 for supporting the Leading Saints podcast. 1652 01:04:40,675 --> 01:04:42,725 There's so much content out there to consider, 1653 01:04:42,745 --> 01:04:44,005 and you picked this one. 1654 01:04:44,185 --> 01:04:46,725 If Leading Saints has made an impact in your life, 1655 01:04:46,865 --> 01:04:48,205 we would sure like 1656 01:04:48,205 --> 01:04:50,805 to hear about it at leading saints.org/contact. 1657 01:04:51,265 --> 01:04:52,845 And if you could quickly text 1658 01:04:52,905 --> 01:04:55,525 or email this episode to a leader, you know, 1659 01:04:55,765 --> 01:04:56,845 I bet it will bless their life. 1660 01:04:56,985 --> 01:04:58,605 You can mark off your good turn daily, 1661 01:04:58,865 --> 01:05:00,325 and let's even call it ministering. 1662 01:05:00,595 --> 01:05:02,965 Okay? Maybe not that far, but seriously, thank you. 1663 01:05:03,385 --> 01:05:04,685 And help us share this content. 1664 01:05:05,605 --> 01:05:07,965 Remember, go to leading saints.org/fourteen 1665 01:05:08,305 --> 01:05:10,125 to hear the Packard family's experience 1666 01:05:10,125 --> 01:05:11,765 of when loved ones leave the church. 1667 01:05:18,025 --> 01:05:21,285 - It came as a result of the position of leadership, 1668 01:05:21,295 --> 01:05:25,205 which was imposed upon us by the God of Heaven, 1669 01:05:25,385 --> 01:05:28,485 who brought forth a restoration of the gospel 1670 01:05:28,705 --> 01:05:30,005 of Jesus Christ. 1671 01:05:30,505 --> 01:05:34,085 And when the Declaration was made concerning the own 1672 01:05:34,145 --> 01:05:35,205 and only true 1673 01:05:35,265 --> 01:05:37,965 and living church upon the face of the earth, 1674 01:05:38,705 --> 01:05:42,085 we were immediately put in a position of loneliness. 1675 01:05:42,345 --> 01:05:44,045 The loneliness of leadership 1676 01:05:44,795 --> 01:05:47,645 from which we cannot shrink nor run away. 1677 01:05:48,825 --> 01:05:52,525 And to which we must face up with boldness and courage 1678 01:05:53,425 --> 01:05:54,245 and ability.