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Hello. I'm Rhonda Morris, vice president and Chief

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human Resources officer at Chevron.

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Chevron is proud to sponsor the lead from

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the heart podcast.

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Today, my colleague, Frank Mount, Vice President of

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Corporate business development will share a brief. Story

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about a leader who's simple and kind act

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had a long lasting influence on his career

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and how he leads others

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Thanks, Rhonda. I'm looking forward to share my

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experience with great leadership.

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I've been blessed to work with many very

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strong leaders during my career at Chevron.

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And some that I've noticed,

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leader's care.

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They take the time to get to know

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the whole you.

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They understand that it's a marathon,

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versus a sprint.

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1 story that really stands out for me.

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In a prior role, I led investor Relations

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for Chevron and was responsible for successful quarterly

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earnings calls.

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Mike Worth, our current Ceo

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took over in 20 18 and his first

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earnings call after assuming the rains was the

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last Friday in January in 20 18.

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With a big prep day being the Thursday

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before that call in California.

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And as my bad luck would have it,

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I had a big conflict.

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My daughter, who was an Avid soccer player

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was being honored on Senior night for her

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last high school soccer game on a very

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same night. The problem was it was in

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Dallas.

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Mike knew how important the event was to

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our family,

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He agreed to a plan that had me

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working from Dallas on the prep day and

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taking the 10PM flight after the game back

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to California

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to make it for the Friday morning call.

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I won't forget he understood the important to

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our family and his vision a long term

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made me even more committed to Chevron.

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Now, let's get on with the show.

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Hello, everyone. This is Mark Crowley, and you're

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listening to the lead from the hard podcast.

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Welcome.

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You know, 4 years ago when we were

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all dispensed to our homes to work during

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Covid. We lost a massive amount of our

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routine connection with other human beings. And when

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offices reopened a year later and remote working

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became more normalized, vip for many people.

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Very few of us ever really regained the

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number of face to face interactions that we

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had, we used to have with people

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before the pandemic hit us.

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So something that I've been thinking about a

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lot lately, and it's probably come through in

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certain threads in previous episodes. Is this question,

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how is this working for us? In other

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words, what might we be losing by not

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running into colleagues in the hallways as often

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as we used to? How might working alone

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even a few days a week be affecting

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our well being long term?

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And are people getting any meaningful sense of

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connection from all the Zoom calls that we

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attend,

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particularly from people who say that they just

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assume never returned to working in an office.

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There's a belief that We really don't need

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to have any more than a transactional

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relationship with our work colleagues. We have plenty

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of connection with our friends and family already.

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We're.

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Heading into today's podcast, I can honestly say

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I've never accepted this assertion. I know too

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much about the human heart and what it

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needs in order to thrive to accept the

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idea that we're not being meaningfully harmed by

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having fewer and fewer face to face interactions.

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A survey published by the American Psychological

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Association recently caught my eye. It found that

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listen up 45 percent of workers aged 18

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to 25

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feel lonely

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while they're working.

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And this surprised me because this is the

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same generation that as the most would take

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technology and has also said that working in

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an office has become archaic.

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Long came, David Rob,

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Science writer who recently did a deep dive

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into the very questions that I was asking,

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and he just published a book called the

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laws of connection. The scientific secrets of building

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a strong social network. A book not only

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recently spotlight in the Wall Street Journal, but

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was just named a next big idea must

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read pick by Adam Brandt, Malcolm Glad well,

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Susan Cain and Daniel Pink.

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So we picked this well.

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In his research, David tap recent studies in

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psychology and neuroscience that fully confirm something we

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might have already guessed.

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Social connection,

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proves to be vital to our mental health,

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our well being and our longevity, and we

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should be as committed to cultivating

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relationships as we are exercising or watching our

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diets.

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There's simply no sign that hybrid work schedules

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will end and that all of us will

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once again return to offices 5 days a

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week.

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So if we're not all getting the connection

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that we used to get and still need

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what's the remedy?

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In our conversation with David, we're gonna explore

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ways that we can all reestablish and form

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robust social ties.

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In his book key explores evidence based strategies

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for enhancing our own social connections

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and explains why workplace managers

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are now very wise to actively help their

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people reg grow their personal network as well.

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So what's the upside for doing all this.

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Well, let me welcome our guests to the

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pie guest, and we'll find out together. And

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with that, welcome to you, sir, mister David

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Rob. It's my pleasure Thanks for helping me

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on. Well, thanks for coming across the pond

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to join us

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through the ether,

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I like to just get right into it.

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So at a time when study show that

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we have fewer close friends in our lives.

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Weaker personal connections with the people we work

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with every day. And

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the constant temptation to use technology to communicate

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instead of meet face to face,

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What does your research suggest needs to happen

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next? Like, are we needing a significant pivot

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in our collective behavior

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is that we're where we're heading in this

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conversation? Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, we... Basically, we

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know that social connection is important for pretty

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much anything that we value in life. So

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to give some examples.

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There's just a huge body of research now

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showing that social connection it's fundamental to our

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physical health. That's actually the best research area

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when it comes to looking at the consequences

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of social connection and loneliness.

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It's seems almost forever disease you're looking at

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where that is whether you catch the common

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colds to

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your likelihood of developing type 2 diabetes,

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alzheimer's disease, cardiovascular

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disease, how likely you are to have a

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stroke or a heart attack All of this

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seems to be exacerbated

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by loneliness. And

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as to a certain extent, the risk is

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mitigated

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by having lots of social connection. That's really

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solid evidence now. It's a bit like exercise.

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In fact. You know, having good social connection

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is just is a very good form of

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medicine, and that's why scientists talk about the

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social cure. But if you look beyond health,

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there's

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that having good social connection with our colleagues

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can improve our well being at work is

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1 of the best predictor of who's happiest

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who has the best job satisfaction,

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and also conversely

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a lack of social connection, a lack of

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appreciation. Is 1 of the biggest predictor of

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burnout.

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When we look at our actual performance in

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the workplace, we know that having more social

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connection seems to be involved in creativity so

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people with more varied social networks tend to

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come up with more original ideas because they're

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exposed to different perspectives, which they can then

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incorporate and their work.

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So we might have been the past Think

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often seen socializing

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as something that was a bit of an

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optional extra in the workplace. I know that,

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you know, I've been to infuse where I

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was told it wasn't the kind of office

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where you have water cooler alert conversations. Well,

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you know, that was a creative agency, and

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they were missing out on a really big

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and important factor.

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The success of the individual end of the

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company.

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You've just done a great job of setting

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this hot, and in fact, it stood out

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to me that when you talk about

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I'm gonna ask you for the scientific

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explanation for this that our physical health is

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actually

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amended and supported and reinforced.

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By building connections. And that not only is

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that in fact, well, Longevity, but I found

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it interesting because of the theme of our

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podcast,

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that it directly affects heart health.

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And so my interpretation is that nature almost

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wants to punish us for not building

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connection or the reciprocal, which is it rewards

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us for building connection. And so as I'm

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listening to you I'm thinking well, why. Like,

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what's the scientific

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explanation for this? What's going on inside of

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us when we connect with people? Right. I

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mean, so that's something that... Makes me so

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convinced about this research because when you look

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at the connections between social connection and health,

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you know, a lot of those are correlation

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studies that

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observational studies that follow people

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through their lives and you can see that

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people who feel lonely at time 1,

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then develop these illnesses,

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you know, years later. So there does seem

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to be this temporal link, but then they...

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The scientists eventually looked at the potential mechanisms,

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what it really boils down to

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is that in our revolutionary history,

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having social connection was just really fundamental

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to our physical safety,

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we depended on others for the pooled resources

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of the group, all of that food that

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we might be hoarding over the winter, for

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example,

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to offset famine, and then we depended on

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on the other group members to protect from

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predators or from other groups who might be

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hostile towards our own.

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Now what their brain evolved to do then

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was to trigger this kind of warning when

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we noticed that we're being socially excluded so

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that we we will try to tend to

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those relationships and repair them in much the

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same way that when we have physical pain,

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it tells us to look after our bodies

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and to protect our wounds,

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while social pain is really helping us to

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do the same with our relationships.

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But more than that then it's also changing

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the physiology of the body.

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And that's because if you were being socially

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excluded and sidelined from your grave or maybe

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kicked out of the group altogether,

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the nature of the threats that you're gonna

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face changed.

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In a group, you're more likely to face

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viral infections that kind of contagious disease.

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Out of the group, you're more likely to

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be wounded by a predator.

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So you're more likely to develop an a

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bacterial infection within that wound.

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So the body when you feel socially excluded

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it it pre that danger, and it starts

273
00:10:42,059 --> 00:10:45,347
to release inflammatory molecules that act as the

274
00:10:45,578 --> 00:10:48,834
First line of defense against bacterial infection. It

275
00:10:48,834 --> 00:10:50,899
also releases blood clotting factor,

276
00:10:51,296 --> 00:10:53,282
which can help the wounds to heal more

277
00:10:53,282 --> 00:10:54,712
quickly and can prevent blood loss.

278
00:10:55,364 --> 00:10:57,861
And Both of those were great short term

279
00:10:58,320 --> 00:10:58,820
evolutionary

280
00:10:59,358 --> 00:11:01,355
adaptations that would have helped us to survive

281
00:11:01,355 --> 00:11:03,925
in those. Days or weeks after we had

282
00:11:03,925 --> 00:11:04,803
been excluded.

283
00:11:05,361 --> 00:11:07,436
But the problem is that what works in

284
00:11:07,436 --> 00:11:09,032
the short term isn't always good for our

285
00:11:09,032 --> 00:11:09,990
health in the long term,

286
00:11:10,644 --> 00:11:13,061
So in modern society, if we are feeling

287
00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,677
isolated and lonely, we don't feel that we've

288
00:11:15,677 --> 00:11:16,875
got the support that we have.

289
00:11:17,448 --> 00:11:20,542
We have low grade inflammation, and we have

290
00:11:20,542 --> 00:11:24,112
elevated levels of blood clotting factor for, you

291
00:11:24,112 --> 00:11:25,382
know, months or years.

292
00:11:26,033 --> 00:11:27,944
And what we know is that both of

293
00:11:27,944 --> 00:11:30,834
those when they become these chronic problems

294
00:11:31,449 --> 00:11:33,599
are big risk factors for a whole host

295
00:11:33,599 --> 00:11:34,497
of diseases

296
00:11:34,888 --> 00:11:37,996
and that includes things like alzheimer's disease is

297
00:11:37,996 --> 00:11:39,612
very closely linked to

298
00:11:40,387 --> 00:11:42,162
inflammation. Same with type 2 diabetes.

299
00:11:42,633 --> 00:11:44,463
And the blood clotting factor when your blood

300
00:11:44,463 --> 00:11:47,327
is becoming thicker because it's causing more easily,

301
00:11:47,487 --> 00:11:50,192
will that pre you to things like heart

302
00:11:50,192 --> 00:11:51,226
attack or stroke.

303
00:11:51,798 --> 00:11:54,449
So what served us an evolution isn't necessarily

304
00:11:54,666 --> 00:11:57,294
serving as well now. And that's why this

305
00:11:57,294 --> 00:12:00,401
intimate link between social connection and health exists.

306
00:12:01,211 --> 00:12:03,911
So going back to your creative agency that

307
00:12:03,911 --> 00:12:06,135
said that we don't have water cooler discussions

308
00:12:06,135 --> 00:12:08,677
here, which strikes me as ridiculous.

309
00:12:09,089 --> 00:12:11,712
But that was their belief system. Right. I'm

310
00:12:11,712 --> 00:12:14,358
also kind of interpreting that they're,

311
00:12:15,051 --> 00:12:17,529
another assumption that they made was that we

312
00:12:17,529 --> 00:12:20,386
don't need work friendships. Yeah. What do you

313
00:12:20,386 --> 00:12:22,449
say to people like this? Because there's a

314
00:12:22,449 --> 00:12:24,433
lot of this right now? There's an an

315
00:12:24,433 --> 00:12:25,489
idea that

316
00:12:25,878 --> 00:12:26,696
in justifying

317
00:12:27,230 --> 00:12:29,379
why I should work from home most of

318
00:12:29,379 --> 00:12:31,766
the time or all of the time that

319
00:12:31,766 --> 00:12:35,146
your argument that I need connection is false

320
00:12:35,362 --> 00:12:38,306
because I'm getting it from my partner, or

321
00:12:38,386 --> 00:12:40,057
I'm getting it from my spouse, or, I'm

322
00:12:40,057 --> 00:12:42,046
getting it from my friends, my neighbors.

323
00:12:42,459 --> 00:12:44,049
So I don't really needed it at work.

324
00:12:44,447 --> 00:12:45,242
What do you say?

325
00:12:46,196 --> 00:12:48,900
So I guess this creative agency I'm talking

326
00:12:48,900 --> 00:12:50,593
about. That was way before

327
00:12:50,982 --> 00:12:53,441
Covid before people started working from home, but

328
00:12:53,441 --> 00:12:55,583
they still had this belief that it seemed

329
00:12:55,583 --> 00:12:57,804
they saw social interaction at work as a

330
00:12:57,804 --> 00:12:58,597
waste of time.

331
00:12:59,247 --> 00:13:02,184
And I find that quite bizarre because I

332
00:13:02,184 --> 00:13:05,598
mean, it's really missing a huge priority. It's

333
00:13:05,598 --> 00:13:07,686
missing the point of what really

334
00:13:08,233 --> 00:13:10,779
fuels creativity team at work. That's what the

335
00:13:10,779 --> 00:13:13,086
research shows is that, you know, the more

336
00:13:13,086 --> 00:13:13,824
the people

337
00:13:14,358 --> 00:13:17,317
have those casual discussions. The more likely they

338
00:13:17,317 --> 00:13:19,567
are to get an interesting perspective on their

339
00:13:19,782 --> 00:13:22,065
their problems that might actually help them to

340
00:13:22,184 --> 00:13:25,052
to find an original solution. And you can't

341
00:13:25,052 --> 00:13:27,602
predict that. It's not like you can just

342
00:13:27,602 --> 00:13:29,912
schedule 1 meeting a week to make the

343
00:13:29,912 --> 00:13:32,397
magic happen. Actually, you need you need lots

344
00:13:32,397 --> 00:13:34,549
of these conversations. You need to feel free

345
00:13:34,549 --> 00:13:36,701
to be able to pick someone's brain when

346
00:13:36,701 --> 00:13:38,614
you need the help. So I do think

347
00:13:38,614 --> 00:13:39,512
that's a really

348
00:13:39,984 --> 00:13:42,062
a really big error on their part to

349
00:13:42,062 --> 00:13:43,980
have taken that attitude. And I think it's

350
00:13:43,980 --> 00:13:46,137
very common attitude, but it's very misguided.

351
00:13:46,697 --> 00:13:49,028
I'd say we'd promote working as well. I

352
00:13:49,028 --> 00:13:50,778
think like there are lots of benefits of

353
00:13:50,778 --> 00:13:53,880
remote working to employees, but then it's difficult

354
00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:55,653
to recreate the same kind of

355
00:13:56,044 --> 00:13:56,544
creative

356
00:13:57,161 --> 00:13:58,757
collaborations that you would have had sitting in

357
00:13:58,757 --> 00:14:01,549
the same room as another person. And maybe

358
00:14:01,549 --> 00:14:03,326
some hybrid setups to

359
00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:05,899
provide the best of both worlds. Like maybe

360
00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:07,799
that can work. And, you know, we can...

361
00:14:08,279 --> 00:14:11,000
Some uses of technology like video calls can

362
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,402
help to to mitigate some of the damage

363
00:14:13,402 --> 00:14:15,467
that we have without physical presence, but I

364
00:14:15,467 --> 00:14:16,126
do think

365
00:14:16,499 --> 00:14:16,999
ultimately,

366
00:14:17,532 --> 00:14:19,778
bumping into people day after day after day

367
00:14:20,009 --> 00:14:22,267
is what's really needed to

368
00:14:22,726 --> 00:14:25,843
to foster that social connection. And in terms

369
00:14:25,843 --> 00:14:29,254
of the economic benefits, for social connection is

370
00:14:29,453 --> 00:14:30,963
means that when people get on with their

371
00:14:30,963 --> 00:14:32,552
colleagues, they're much more likely to stick in

372
00:14:32,552 --> 00:14:34,936
a job. When people don't feel that social

373
00:14:34,936 --> 00:14:37,175
connection, they're much more likely to and move

374
00:14:37,175 --> 00:14:39,397
on and leave. And so that's a big

375
00:14:39,397 --> 00:14:41,857
financial penalty that these companies are facing. If

376
00:14:41,857 --> 00:14:44,810
they don't allow their their colleagues their employees

377
00:14:44,810 --> 00:14:46,878
to have those conversations that can make you

378
00:14:46,878 --> 00:14:48,412
feel that you're part of a community.

379
00:14:48,866 --> 00:14:52,008
That's great. Obviously, this with working from home

380
00:14:52,305 --> 00:14:54,457
environment that we're living in right now, may

381
00:14:54,457 --> 00:14:57,007
be the future. It may be adjusted,

382
00:14:57,645 --> 00:14:59,729
but there are certain camps working some that

383
00:14:59,729 --> 00:15:02,270
say, it works perfectly, and we shouldn't be

384
00:15:02,270 --> 00:15:05,548
concerned about connection. There are others that say

385
00:15:05,604 --> 00:15:07,748
that we thrive when we're together,

386
00:15:08,399 --> 00:15:10,556
But I think companies are struggling right now

387
00:15:10,556 --> 00:15:12,953
to decide what's best because they're hearing so

388
00:15:12,953 --> 00:15:14,231
many different opinions.

389
00:15:14,951 --> 00:15:15,451
And

390
00:15:15,844 --> 00:15:17,931
So it's hard to tell a whole company

391
00:15:18,066 --> 00:15:21,558
that we're a in office company 5 days

392
00:15:21,558 --> 00:15:24,437
a week and not get... So major rejection

393
00:15:24,437 --> 00:15:26,512
from a lot of people that are you.

394
00:15:26,832 --> 00:15:28,269
I just spent the last 4 years working

395
00:15:28,269 --> 00:15:29,546
from home, and I did a pretty good

396
00:15:29,546 --> 00:15:32,100
job. So I don't understand the restrictions,

397
00:15:32,833 --> 00:15:35,226
what's your opinion in terms of where this

398
00:15:35,226 --> 00:15:37,857
is gonna go? In other words, what are

399
00:15:37,857 --> 00:15:39,931
we gonna learn based on the science that

400
00:15:39,931 --> 00:15:41,605
you've already tapped into?

401
00:15:42,178 --> 00:15:44,666
Where do you think companies would be optimally

402
00:15:45,041 --> 00:15:47,267
informed in terms of how many days in

403
00:15:47,267 --> 00:15:49,414
the office, how many days working from home?

404
00:15:49,812 --> 00:15:51,402
What's your opinion as of right now?

405
00:15:52,294 --> 00:15:54,472
So I have just seen some very recent

406
00:15:54,612 --> 00:15:57,249
research that suggests that, I guess it's hybrid

407
00:15:57,249 --> 00:15:59,886
working rather than fully remote working, but they

408
00:15:59,886 --> 00:16:01,345
don't see a huge

409
00:16:01,739 --> 00:16:04,297
loss in productivity, and they do see that

410
00:16:04,297 --> 00:16:05,975
employees are much more likely to stick in

411
00:16:05,975 --> 00:16:08,313
their job if they do have that flexibility,

412
00:16:08,692 --> 00:16:10,290
And it does have an advantage as well

413
00:16:10,290 --> 00:16:12,935
for gender equality in the workplace because what

414
00:16:12,935 --> 00:16:15,723
they found was naturally, there a better retention

415
00:16:15,723 --> 00:16:17,657
of female staff when

416
00:16:17,969 --> 00:16:19,343
there's an option of flexibility.

417
00:16:19,877 --> 00:16:21,388
So I think we have to keep all

418
00:16:21,388 --> 00:16:23,852
of that in mind. But I think the

419
00:16:23,852 --> 00:16:26,079
issue is like, how are you then ensuring

420
00:16:26,079 --> 00:16:28,659
and encouraging that people is still having the

421
00:16:28,714 --> 00:16:31,488
conversations that will help to improve people's well

422
00:16:31,488 --> 00:16:32,463
being and their creativity

423
00:16:32,994 --> 00:16:35,467
in other ways. And so still you know,

424
00:16:35,706 --> 00:16:37,956
when I worked with the Bbc and afterwards,

425
00:16:38,729 --> 00:16:40,400
you know, my boss was really good actually,

426
00:16:40,639 --> 00:16:42,707
even when we had to work remotely for

427
00:16:42,707 --> 00:16:43,662
setting up different.

428
00:16:44,313 --> 00:16:46,956
Different initiatives to just encourage socializing

429
00:16:47,488 --> 00:16:49,313
amongst colleagues even if you couldn't do it

430
00:16:49,313 --> 00:16:50,901
face to face. So, you know, 1 of

431
00:16:50,901 --> 00:16:53,457
the activities that I really enjoyed was being

432
00:16:53,457 --> 00:16:55,443
part of a book club that you could

433
00:16:55,443 --> 00:16:57,191
join online or you could join it face

434
00:16:57,191 --> 00:16:59,018
to face. But the fact is, it was

435
00:16:59,018 --> 00:17:01,164
a way for people to feel connected to

436
00:17:01,164 --> 00:17:04,134
each other, not purely in the in their

437
00:17:04,134 --> 00:17:06,934
data activities, but also in, you know, having

438
00:17:06,934 --> 00:17:09,095
this kind of project that was unrelated to

439
00:17:09,095 --> 00:17:11,069
work. So I think that kind of initiative

440
00:17:11,349 --> 00:17:12,467
can be really helpful.

441
00:17:13,265 --> 00:17:15,899
You know, providing the technological tools for people

442
00:17:15,899 --> 00:17:18,454
to be able to have good discussions and

443
00:17:18,454 --> 00:17:21,022
providing guidelines for how to do that. There

444
00:17:21,022 --> 00:17:23,431
are certain things practices that are much better

445
00:17:23,567 --> 00:17:25,021
than others for maintaining

446
00:17:25,554 --> 00:17:28,337
connection during creative projects. For example,

447
00:17:28,909 --> 00:17:30,287
it can be good to schedule

448
00:17:30,665 --> 00:17:31,165
brainstorming

449
00:17:31,542 --> 00:17:33,537
sessions. So their runs on board rather than

450
00:17:33,537 --> 00:17:36,011
having that trickle of emails as people are...

451
00:17:36,664 --> 00:17:39,298
You know, each feeding in their their idea

452
00:17:39,298 --> 00:17:41,452
remotely. Actually it's much better to say we'll

453
00:17:41,452 --> 00:17:42,910
have a slack discussion

454
00:17:43,288 --> 00:17:45,858
on this for the next hour or 2,

455
00:17:46,178 --> 00:17:48,495
where we're all gonna be contributing together because

456
00:17:48,495 --> 00:17:50,992
what you want is that burst of of

457
00:17:51,131 --> 00:17:54,335
information exchange that's what's really conducive to better

458
00:17:54,335 --> 00:17:57,122
the collective decision making. Whereas if you just

459
00:17:57,122 --> 00:17:59,113
have a kind of slow stream of these

460
00:17:59,113 --> 00:18:01,516
emails, some of them getting ignored, people aren't

461
00:18:01,516 --> 00:18:03,609
really engaging so closely

462
00:18:04,304 --> 00:18:06,374
with the task at hand. So I think

463
00:18:06,374 --> 00:18:08,126
there's lots that can be done. It does

464
00:18:08,126 --> 00:18:09,104
depend on the particular

465
00:18:10,053 --> 00:18:12,445
situation of the company of the particular projects.

466
00:18:12,924 --> 00:18:14,518
But, yeah, I think we do have to

467
00:18:14,518 --> 00:18:16,911
look for a new way of working that

468
00:18:16,911 --> 00:18:17,411
prioritizes

469
00:18:18,107 --> 00:18:18,607
connection

470
00:18:18,999 --> 00:18:20,757
even if we can't all be in the

471
00:18:20,757 --> 00:18:22,515
same argument at the same time as we

472
00:18:22,515 --> 00:18:25,552
were previously. So 2 questions, one's a statement

473
00:18:25,552 --> 00:18:27,150
and the others is the question. The question

474
00:18:27,150 --> 00:18:30,667
is do you have a recommended number of

475
00:18:30,667 --> 00:18:32,735
days in the office where people can bump

476
00:18:32,735 --> 00:18:34,167
into people as you suggested?

477
00:18:34,899 --> 00:18:37,296
And the other is is just the suggestion

478
00:18:37,296 --> 00:18:40,252
that a book club appeal to you. But

479
00:18:40,252 --> 00:18:42,744
there could be other clubs, you know, other

480
00:18:42,744 --> 00:18:44,284
themes or other focuses,

481
00:18:44,664 --> 00:18:45,884
you know, gardening

482
00:18:46,505 --> 00:18:48,984
discussions and, you know, you name it. Right?

483
00:18:49,319 --> 00:18:51,547
So it doesn't necessarily have to be a

484
00:18:51,547 --> 00:18:53,855
book club, which will attract a certain group.

485
00:18:54,253 --> 00:18:56,504
But if organizations create...

486
00:18:57,454 --> 00:19:00,410
Different kinds of online clubs to bring people

487
00:19:00,410 --> 00:19:01,928
together if they're spending a lot of time

488
00:19:01,928 --> 00:19:04,086
working remotely, that could work just as effectively.

489
00:19:04,325 --> 00:19:06,256
Yeah. Yep. That's exactly it. I mean, the

490
00:19:06,256 --> 00:19:07,613
book club was just 1 that did seem

491
00:19:07,613 --> 00:19:09,289
to work quite well with a group of

492
00:19:09,289 --> 00:19:12,321
journalists, but, you know, there's plenty of other

493
00:19:12,321 --> 00:19:14,646
options. That's you know, it could be discussing

494
00:19:14,646 --> 00:19:17,033
like, what spots are happening at at moment.

495
00:19:17,192 --> 00:19:19,579
Mh. Or but it's just giving people the

496
00:19:19,579 --> 00:19:21,090
option. I'll letting them know that it's something

497
00:19:21,090 --> 00:19:21,806
that the company,

498
00:19:22,299 --> 00:19:25,420
or organization values that it actually wants you

499
00:19:25,420 --> 00:19:28,400
to have those conversations as opposed to an

500
00:19:28,539 --> 00:19:30,779
institution like that creative agency that I spoke

501
00:19:30,779 --> 00:19:32,575
about or her where it was actively

502
00:19:33,035 --> 00:19:33,434
discouraged.

503
00:19:34,234 --> 00:19:36,875
And to return to your first question about

504
00:19:36,875 --> 00:19:37,535
the optimum

505
00:19:37,914 --> 00:19:38,894
number of days

506
00:19:39,209 --> 00:19:41,280
I mean, I think that will depend on

507
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:41,917
the company.

508
00:19:42,475 --> 00:19:45,183
I think most companies in the Uk, are

509
00:19:45,183 --> 00:19:47,891
essentially settling on 2 days minimum.

510
00:19:48,384 --> 00:19:50,770
You know, 3 days optimal 4 days is

511
00:19:50,770 --> 00:19:52,997
kind of the maximum of what people are

512
00:19:52,997 --> 00:19:54,509
willing to accept it seems.

513
00:19:55,399 --> 00:19:56,994
Know, and it can depend on the employee's

514
00:19:56,994 --> 00:19:57,494
circumstances

515
00:19:57,872 --> 00:19:59,648
as well. But I think you do want

516
00:19:59,945 --> 00:20:00,445
some

517
00:20:00,823 --> 00:20:02,976
chunk of time, you know, 2 days, I

518
00:20:02,976 --> 00:20:04,332
think is a good amount where you can

519
00:20:04,332 --> 00:20:06,343
get your fit, you of the connection, but

520
00:20:06,343 --> 00:20:08,819
also then have the other benefits that come

521
00:20:08,819 --> 00:20:09,879
from remote working

522
00:20:10,337 --> 00:20:12,549
in terms of, you know, not having the

523
00:20:12,828 --> 00:20:14,980
long commute for lots of people having more

524
00:20:14,980 --> 00:20:15,958
time with your family

525
00:20:16,335 --> 00:20:18,168
more time focus on your well being in

526
00:20:18,168 --> 00:20:20,574
other ways. Like, like working out as instead

527
00:20:20,574 --> 00:20:22,172
of spending all your time in the car

528
00:20:22,172 --> 00:20:22,892
or in the train?

529
00:20:23,531 --> 00:20:25,688
I really appreciate the fact that you're not

530
00:20:25,688 --> 00:20:27,846
stride saying it has to be 1 way

531
00:20:27,846 --> 00:20:28,665
or the other

532
00:20:29,058 --> 00:20:31,125
and as we're gonna dig into this, that

533
00:20:31,125 --> 00:20:32,397
your book is really about.

534
00:20:33,271 --> 00:20:35,497
Here's how we do it? Like, in the

535
00:20:35,497 --> 00:20:37,485
new world that we're living in, here's how

536
00:20:37,485 --> 00:20:38,335
you can create

537
00:20:38,694 --> 00:20:40,451
connection in ways that we've never thought of

538
00:20:40,451 --> 00:20:41,650
before or needed before.

539
00:20:42,289 --> 00:20:44,446
And so I wanna dig into that. So

540
00:20:44,526 --> 00:20:46,455
I'm particularly interested and how your research can

541
00:20:46,455 --> 00:20:47,831
be used to elevate

542
00:20:48,207 --> 00:20:49,026
leadership effectiveness

543
00:20:49,402 --> 00:20:52,030
of vis vis building deeper connection with people.

544
00:20:52,588 --> 00:20:55,314
But do you wanna strike out like, and

545
00:20:55,314 --> 00:20:58,270
give us an overview of, you know, the

546
00:20:58,270 --> 00:21:01,067
practical side of connection before I get into

547
00:21:01,067 --> 00:21:02,745
some of my more detailed questions.

548
00:21:03,159 --> 00:21:05,148
Yeah. Sure. So I guess, like, I think

549
00:21:05,148 --> 00:21:07,216
all of my kind of book is divided

550
00:21:07,216 --> 00:21:09,922
into these 13 laws of connection. And I

551
00:21:09,922 --> 00:21:12,086
think... All of them are relevant for people

552
00:21:12,086 --> 00:21:15,292
in leadership roles because even if they've always

553
00:21:15,429 --> 00:21:17,419
applied to some of those themselves. It can

554
00:21:17,419 --> 00:21:19,739
still be useful, to know what behavior you

555
00:21:19,739 --> 00:21:21,883
should be encouraging in others. And I'll give

556
00:21:21,883 --> 00:21:22,597
1 example.

557
00:21:23,312 --> 00:21:24,924
Essentially, we know that people

558
00:21:25,535 --> 00:21:28,974
underestimate their capacity for connection They underestimate have

559
00:21:28,974 --> 00:21:32,015
positively other people will respond to them. And

560
00:21:32,015 --> 00:21:34,174
then that can prevent them from having the

561
00:21:34,174 --> 00:21:35,315
useful creative

562
00:21:35,934 --> 00:21:38,585
conversations that would... Enhance their work, but also

563
00:21:38,585 --> 00:21:40,740
bring them greater happiness in their personal lives.

564
00:21:41,298 --> 00:21:43,852
And 1, you know, my favorite example of

565
00:21:43,852 --> 00:21:45,105
this really and the 1 that

566
00:21:45,543 --> 00:21:47,376
inspired me to dig deeper and to to

567
00:21:47,376 --> 00:21:49,368
look through all of this scientific research on

568
00:21:49,368 --> 00:21:52,715
this was a phenomenon called the liking gap.

569
00:21:53,129 --> 00:21:55,203
And put simply, this is the fact that

570
00:21:55,203 --> 00:21:55,703
people

571
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,074
when you meet someone for the first or

572
00:21:58,074 --> 00:22:00,626
second time. You can both have a really

573
00:22:00,626 --> 00:22:01,126
good

574
00:22:01,584 --> 00:22:02,700
conversation in that moment.

575
00:22:03,589 --> 00:22:07,004
But then when you go away, you both

576
00:22:07,004 --> 00:22:10,260
start to underestimate how the other person felt

577
00:22:10,260 --> 00:22:12,743
about you. So each person is assuming that

578
00:22:12,743 --> 00:22:14,439
they liked the other person

579
00:22:14,816 --> 00:22:17,926
more than the other person liked them. And

580
00:22:17,926 --> 00:22:19,520
there are lots of reasons for that, but...

581
00:22:19,934 --> 00:22:22,244
Seems that people really get very caught up

582
00:22:22,244 --> 00:22:22,744
in

583
00:22:23,121 --> 00:22:25,112
some of those slight moments of awkward in

584
00:22:25,112 --> 00:22:28,392
a conversation, they might kind of replay a

585
00:22:28,392 --> 00:22:30,778
faux pas that they said or a mistake,

586
00:22:30,937 --> 00:22:33,482
a moment where the other person was distracted

587
00:22:33,482 --> 00:22:35,684
for the idea that that person was bored

588
00:22:35,804 --> 00:22:37,556
And so they go away feeling quite uncertain

589
00:22:37,556 --> 00:22:39,148
they have a lot of doubts about how

590
00:22:39,148 --> 00:22:42,015
authentic in them and meaningful their sense of

591
00:22:42,015 --> 00:22:44,655
connection really was in that conversation. That's not

592
00:22:44,655 --> 00:22:46,877
good for well being, but more important it's

593
00:22:46,877 --> 00:22:50,289
a major discourage to building on that connection

594
00:22:50,289 --> 00:22:51,083
and having more.

595
00:22:51,973 --> 00:22:52,292
Discussions,

596
00:22:52,930 --> 00:22:53,169
conversations,

597
00:22:53,887 --> 00:22:55,403
collaborations in the future.

598
00:22:56,121 --> 00:22:56,621
So

599
00:22:56,998 --> 00:22:59,391
I think that's really important for people to

600
00:22:59,391 --> 00:23:02,519
bear in mind personally by being aware of

601
00:23:02,519 --> 00:23:03,019
phenomenon

602
00:23:03,399 --> 00:23:05,480
like the liking gap, we can just make

603
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,799
sure that actually we account for this. So

604
00:23:07,799 --> 00:23:09,799
even if you you do have those doubts,

605
00:23:10,039 --> 00:23:13,012
you're still just make the effort to actually

606
00:23:13,012 --> 00:23:15,409
reach out. Can I ask you, don't lose

607
00:23:15,409 --> 00:23:17,247
your chain of thought, but I was blown

608
00:23:17,247 --> 00:23:19,220
away by that that in reading your book

609
00:23:19,339 --> 00:23:20,776
Yeah? And I remember thinking,

610
00:23:21,414 --> 00:23:23,249
I've had conversations with people were on like,

611
00:23:23,489 --> 00:23:26,122
oh, man, did I blow that? Like, that

612
00:23:26,122 --> 00:23:28,134
didn't go well. Right. And then I hear

613
00:23:28,134 --> 00:23:30,775
later... Oh, they really enjoyed meeting you in

614
00:23:30,775 --> 00:23:32,695
the... And, like, how is that possible that

615
00:23:32,775 --> 00:23:34,295
I could have such a...

616
00:23:35,108 --> 00:23:37,820
A different view of how an interaction went.

617
00:23:38,059 --> 00:23:39,575
And, by the way, there are times where

618
00:23:39,575 --> 00:23:41,569
it's the opposite too. Right? In other words,

619
00:23:41,888 --> 00:23:43,882
Right. Right. We think it went really well

620
00:23:43,882 --> 00:23:44,520
and it didn't.

621
00:23:45,331 --> 00:23:47,878
So what's the explanation? Why are we also

622
00:23:47,878 --> 00:23:50,186
self doubting? Yeah. I mean, so, absolutely. It

623
00:23:50,186 --> 00:23:52,470
could go in the other direction like you

624
00:23:52,589 --> 00:23:54,812
say. But in general, that just doesn't happen

625
00:23:54,812 --> 00:23:57,115
as much as we fear. Like it's much

626
00:23:57,115 --> 00:23:57,853
more likely

627
00:23:58,226 --> 00:24:00,291
on average to go well than it was,

628
00:24:00,624 --> 00:24:02,953
to have gone badly. So, yeah, our

629
00:24:03,328 --> 00:24:04,465
expectations are just needlessly

630
00:24:05,158 --> 00:24:05,658
pessimistic

631
00:24:06,112 --> 00:24:07,090
in most cases

632
00:24:07,638 --> 00:24:09,304
you know, is a real shame. I think

633
00:24:09,304 --> 00:24:10,969
there is a benefit in being a little

634
00:24:10,969 --> 00:24:11,707
bit cautious

635
00:24:12,476 --> 00:24:14,220
because you don't want to take people for

636
00:24:14,220 --> 00:24:16,561
granted. You know, we have... To be sensitive

637
00:24:16,699 --> 00:24:17,495
to other people.

638
00:24:18,132 --> 00:24:20,462
The repairs, like breaks in the

639
00:24:21,157 --> 00:24:22,988
conversation at, you know, we all do make

640
00:24:22,988 --> 00:24:23,488
some

641
00:24:23,798 --> 00:24:25,884
some mistakes occasionally, that could

642
00:24:26,336 --> 00:24:28,239
disrupt the sense of connection, and we we

643
00:24:28,239 --> 00:24:29,984
do have to be aware of that fact.

644
00:24:30,618 --> 00:24:32,858
But I think we just over compensate for

645
00:24:32,858 --> 00:24:34,608
this. That's the real problem is that we're

646
00:24:34,608 --> 00:24:37,314
just too negative. We could afford to be

647
00:24:37,314 --> 00:24:40,019
more confident less doubtful, but we we just

648
00:24:40,019 --> 00:24:40,950
don't do that

649
00:24:41,467 --> 00:24:43,141
I think 1 of the problems with this

650
00:24:43,141 --> 00:24:45,531
is that we're maybe just not vocal enough

651
00:24:45,531 --> 00:24:48,080
with each other to show exactly how much.

652
00:24:48,573 --> 00:24:50,641
We liked each other. We're maybe a bit

653
00:24:50,641 --> 00:24:51,834
too reserved with this,

654
00:24:52,550 --> 00:24:55,669
and that creates this liking gap barrier. That

655
00:24:55,669 --> 00:24:57,507
can prevent? Is that a British thing or

656
00:24:57,507 --> 00:24:59,424
a human thing? It's a human thing. I

657
00:24:59,424 --> 00:25:02,700
mean, this research was performed in the Us

658
00:25:02,700 --> 00:25:04,554
that. So I can I can imagine it

659
00:25:04,554 --> 00:25:07,115
would be more pronounced in the Uk, But

660
00:25:07,274 --> 00:25:08,974
I imagine it is a universal

661
00:25:09,515 --> 00:25:13,625
human universal, actually because there are similar psychological

662
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:15,988
phenomena that I discussed in the book that

663
00:25:15,988 --> 00:25:17,283
have been tested say

664
00:25:17,737 --> 00:25:19,964
China in the Us and in Europe and

665
00:25:19,964 --> 00:25:23,087
people aren't pretty similarly? So I'm not saying

666
00:25:23,087 --> 00:25:24,066
we're necessarily

667
00:25:24,443 --> 00:25:25,720
hardwired with this, but I think most of

668
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:26,459
our cultures

669
00:25:27,075 --> 00:25:29,708
have encouraged us to be sensitive when we

670
00:25:29,708 --> 00:25:32,827
sometimes take that too far were overly cautious.

671
00:25:33,066 --> 00:25:35,691
So what's your prescription? Mh. Yeah. So I

672
00:25:35,691 --> 00:25:37,043
think like, 1 of the best things we

673
00:25:37,043 --> 00:25:39,369
can do to prevent the other person from

674
00:25:39,369 --> 00:25:41,601
feeling the liking gap and encouraging them to

675
00:25:41,601 --> 00:25:44,174
have more confidence is just to end our

676
00:25:44,311 --> 00:25:47,037
conversations by, you know, only if it's honest

677
00:25:47,037 --> 00:25:49,509
and we're being authentic. But to tell them

678
00:25:49,509 --> 00:25:51,821
how much we really appreciated them to really

679
00:25:51,821 --> 00:25:52,560
make that

680
00:25:52,937 --> 00:25:55,090
explicit rather than just expecting them to have...

681
00:25:55,504 --> 00:25:57,501
Somehow worked it out from the general tone

682
00:25:57,501 --> 00:25:59,898
of the conversation. But actually just just tell

683
00:25:59,898 --> 00:26:02,135
them that to a swag some of their

684
00:26:02,135 --> 00:26:05,092
doubts. That's wonderful. It's actually really wonderful advice

685
00:26:05,092 --> 00:26:07,715
because it makes people feel safe and supported

686
00:26:07,715 --> 00:26:10,657
and and encouraged to wanna continue the relationship.

687
00:26:10,895 --> 00:26:13,138
So you can actually... Steer the relationship in

688
00:26:13,138 --> 00:26:14,890
a very positive way. And so that's the

689
00:26:14,890 --> 00:26:17,757
last thing. You know, the rec effect is

690
00:26:17,757 --> 00:26:19,828
their a last thing to remembering about the

691
00:26:19,828 --> 00:26:21,995
interaction was how kind it was for you

692
00:26:21,995 --> 00:26:24,468
to reinforce that you really enjoy being with

693
00:26:24,468 --> 00:26:26,621
them, meeting them, getting to know them. That's

694
00:26:26,621 --> 00:26:28,934
what you're saying. Yeah. Exactly. And, again, I'm

695
00:26:28,934 --> 00:26:30,210
not saying that we should do this. If

696
00:26:30,210 --> 00:26:31,817
we didn't go on with someone. I don't

697
00:26:31,817 --> 00:26:34,601
think we should be dishonest about that. But

698
00:26:34,601 --> 00:26:36,669
most of the time we do, and it's

699
00:26:36,669 --> 00:26:38,737
just is much better like you say it

700
00:26:38,737 --> 00:26:41,009
just verbal that to actually

701
00:26:41,390 --> 00:26:43,230
not leave them to doubt that, but to

702
00:26:43,230 --> 00:26:45,089
actually say it because it puts the

703
00:26:45,710 --> 00:26:47,884
relationship immediately on a much better footing. Very

704
00:26:47,884 --> 00:26:49,724
thoughtful. You could also send a follow up

705
00:26:49,724 --> 00:26:52,924
message. I think that's also very beneficial. And

706
00:26:53,085 --> 00:26:54,444
I guess that's my second piece of for

707
00:26:54,444 --> 00:26:57,174
advice is putting knowing that we do have

708
00:26:57,174 --> 00:26:59,328
the liking gap. Just try to account for

709
00:26:59,328 --> 00:27:01,721
that. And to think well, I enjoyed the

710
00:27:01,721 --> 00:27:03,156
conversation. I'd say I would like to meet

711
00:27:03,156 --> 00:27:04,990
this person again, or I'd like to invite

712
00:27:04,990 --> 00:27:07,071
them to collaborate with my team, and to

713
00:27:07,071 --> 00:27:09,453
just be a bit brave about saying those

714
00:27:09,453 --> 00:27:09,770
things.

715
00:27:10,485 --> 00:27:12,708
We have to respect people's boundaries and not

716
00:27:12,708 --> 00:27:14,430
everyone you meet is gonna want to be

717
00:27:14,628 --> 00:27:17,516
your best friend or your closest collaborators. So

718
00:27:17,892 --> 00:27:20,597
respect to those boundaries. But when you make

719
00:27:20,597 --> 00:27:23,542
these tact offers to continue and build on

720
00:27:23,542 --> 00:27:26,341
that and rapport. But a bit brave, just

721
00:27:26,341 --> 00:27:28,966
recognize that they probably did like you as

722
00:27:28,966 --> 00:27:31,369
much as you liked them and and by

723
00:27:31,369 --> 00:27:34,026
giving them the opportunity to have further

724
00:27:34,405 --> 00:27:34,644
conversations.

725
00:27:35,283 --> 00:27:37,361
You're just allowing what might have been the

726
00:27:37,361 --> 00:27:39,841
seed of of a good relationship to really

727
00:27:39,841 --> 00:27:41,985
blossom them and grow into into something that

728
00:27:41,985 --> 00:27:45,162
could be potentially a lifelong friendship. Thank you.

729
00:27:45,717 --> 00:27:48,279
Transitioning, I wanna ask you why do you

730
00:27:48,279 --> 00:27:51,240
advise workplace leaders to become masters of connection?

731
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,220
Mh Well, I think partly this is because

732
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,388
we know that... With many psychological

733
00:27:56,921 --> 00:27:57,421
qualities,

734
00:27:58,430 --> 00:28:02,083
people naturally mimic and imitate the people around

735
00:28:02,083 --> 00:28:04,228
them, and especially those that they look up

736
00:28:04,228 --> 00:28:06,787
to. We know this, for example, when our

737
00:28:06,787 --> 00:28:09,594
leader is humble and is more willing to

738
00:28:09,889 --> 00:28:10,764
acknowledge their errors,

739
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,800
the people who are following them. End up

740
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,260
being much more humble too. So, you know,

741
00:28:16,419 --> 00:28:18,640
there's a kind of element of social contagion

742
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:19,989
here, and I think it should come from

743
00:28:19,989 --> 00:28:20,647
the person

744
00:28:21,020 --> 00:28:21,520
who's

745
00:28:21,908 --> 00:28:22,807
leading the

746
00:28:23,182 --> 00:28:23,978
organization to do that.

747
00:28:24,775 --> 00:28:26,845
They should be encouraging it in the the

748
00:28:26,845 --> 00:28:29,312
team of executives beneath them as well,

749
00:28:30,362 --> 00:28:32,750
and the reasons are that it's beneficial to

750
00:28:32,750 --> 00:28:35,296
everyone. I mean, it's beneficial for financially, but

751
00:28:35,296 --> 00:28:36,887
it's also beneficial just for the...

752
00:28:37,539 --> 00:28:40,576
The overall well being the culture of the

753
00:28:40,576 --> 00:28:40,976
company.

754
00:28:41,855 --> 00:28:43,773
So let me parse this a little bit

755
00:28:43,773 --> 00:28:46,090
more with greater definition, I suppose.

756
00:28:46,824 --> 00:28:48,101
You know, 1 of the things that you

757
00:28:48,101 --> 00:28:50,815
say in the book that I totally agree

758
00:28:50,815 --> 00:28:51,873
with is that

759
00:28:52,251 --> 00:28:52,990
the broader

760
00:28:53,368 --> 00:28:54,486
your network,

761
00:28:55,299 --> 00:28:57,697
the greater access you're having to diverse thought,

762
00:28:58,496 --> 00:29:00,574
and that that's broadening your view of the

763
00:29:00,574 --> 00:29:03,051
world, which obviously is gonna enhance the decision

764
00:29:03,051 --> 00:29:04,904
making. You you put into play every every

765
00:29:04,904 --> 00:29:05,063
everyday.

766
00:29:05,860 --> 00:29:07,694
And there's the other aspect of this, which

767
00:29:07,694 --> 00:29:09,129
is that as a leader,

768
00:29:09,687 --> 00:29:10,745
I have a responsibility

769
00:29:11,122 --> 00:29:14,187
to foster connection knowing how it aids and

770
00:29:14,244 --> 00:29:15,198
supports well being.

771
00:29:16,073 --> 00:29:16,573
So

772
00:29:17,028 --> 00:29:18,698
maybe this is the time to say,

773
00:29:19,414 --> 00:29:21,823
tell us about the different ways that

774
00:29:22,134 --> 00:29:25,482
your 13 principles for building a, building connection.

775
00:29:25,961 --> 00:29:28,693
But let me just ask you to clarify

776
00:29:28,752 --> 00:29:30,267
those first 2 points, and then we'll go

777
00:29:30,267 --> 00:29:30,665
from there.

778
00:29:31,474 --> 00:29:33,694
Yeah. I mean, you've got exactly right. That's

779
00:29:33,694 --> 00:29:35,676
exactly how I see it. It is a

780
00:29:35,676 --> 00:29:38,054
leader's responsibility to ensure the well being.

781
00:29:38,784 --> 00:29:42,299
Of the people within their workforce. And we

782
00:29:42,299 --> 00:29:44,296
know that when people have better social connection,

783
00:29:44,456 --> 00:29:45,356
they're less likely

784
00:29:45,829 --> 00:29:49,260
to suffer from emotional like exhaustion or burnout.

785
00:29:49,499 --> 00:29:51,914
You know, it's really serious problems that can

786
00:29:52,133 --> 00:29:54,380
completely derail someone's career.

787
00:29:55,018 --> 00:29:57,806
So from a moral perspective, I think, absolutely,

788
00:29:58,045 --> 00:30:01,811
there's imperative to to encourage connection in an

789
00:30:02,108 --> 00:30:02,347
organization.

790
00:30:03,159 --> 00:30:04,679
And then, you know, like you say, it

791
00:30:04,679 --> 00:30:07,480
comes with those benefits for decision making for

792
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:07,980
creativity.

793
00:30:08,759 --> 00:30:09,399
It's really...

794
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:11,159
You know, I feel like...

795
00:30:11,734 --> 00:30:13,809
There's so many measures that you can take

796
00:30:13,809 --> 00:30:16,444
to improve a company. We know that company

797
00:30:16,444 --> 00:30:19,477
culture, corporate culture can really have a huge

798
00:30:19,477 --> 00:30:21,970
impact on the overall. The long term health

799
00:30:21,970 --> 00:30:22,630
of an

800
00:30:22,930 --> 00:30:23,089
organization.

801
00:30:23,809 --> 00:30:26,210
Social connection is just so fundamental to all

802
00:30:26,210 --> 00:30:27,730
of that. I think if you're neglecting it,

803
00:30:27,970 --> 00:30:30,299
your... You're not really thinking about the long

804
00:30:30,299 --> 00:30:33,192
term benefits to your employees or to your

805
00:30:33,330 --> 00:30:36,520
to your overall corporate goal. So you have

806
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,309
13 principles for building drugs. Social ties. And

807
00:30:40,450 --> 00:30:41,809
we don't have time to go through all

808
00:30:41,809 --> 00:30:44,130
of them, but you could be very selective,

809
00:30:44,849 --> 00:30:45,730
David in saying,

810
00:30:46,529 --> 00:30:48,697
these social 345,

811
00:30:49,095 --> 00:30:50,846
whichever 1 you wanna call out are the

812
00:30:50,846 --> 00:30:53,791
most relevant in the workplace context that you're

813
00:30:53,791 --> 00:30:54,507
just describing,

814
00:30:55,238 --> 00:30:57,703
So I'll just ask you to select which

815
00:30:57,703 --> 00:30:59,714
ones you think you'd like to emphasize

816
00:31:00,088 --> 00:31:01,361
and tell us a little bit about them.

817
00:31:01,758 --> 00:31:03,348
Okay. Yeah. That's quite a few that. I

818
00:31:03,348 --> 00:31:04,064
think car relevant.

819
00:31:04,953 --> 00:31:07,125
The first I think is showing

820
00:31:07,739 --> 00:31:09,331
appreciation. I mean, I think this should be

821
00:31:09,331 --> 00:31:11,878
pretty obvious. Right. You tell people when you're

822
00:31:11,878 --> 00:31:13,709
grateful for the work they've done. You complement

823
00:31:13,709 --> 00:31:15,314
them for the things they're doing well.

824
00:31:16,029 --> 00:31:18,651
The research shows that despite knowing that we

825
00:31:18,651 --> 00:31:20,081
should be doing that. We don't do it

826
00:31:20,081 --> 00:31:21,614
nearly enough. We actually

827
00:31:22,003 --> 00:31:24,152
bite back a lot of the positive things

828
00:31:24,152 --> 00:31:26,540
that we're thinking about other people. And it's

829
00:31:26,540 --> 00:31:27,257
a great shame.

830
00:31:28,132 --> 00:31:29,980
There are lots of reasons for that I

831
00:31:29,980 --> 00:31:31,819
think it's actually worse than that that we

832
00:31:31,819 --> 00:31:33,500
actually think we're doing it more than we

833
00:31:33,500 --> 00:31:36,619
are. So, yeah, the research shows that when

834
00:31:36,619 --> 00:31:39,033
you ask leaders, How often do you thank

835
00:31:39,033 --> 00:31:41,670
people and appreciate them and recognize them, it's

836
00:31:41,670 --> 00:31:43,429
a very high number. And then when you

837
00:31:43,429 --> 00:31:44,947
go to employees and you say, you know,

838
00:31:45,106 --> 00:31:47,000
almost the last time somebody thank you or

839
00:31:47,199 --> 00:31:49,436
applauded you for your work. They're like, I

840
00:31:49,436 --> 00:31:52,472
can't remember. And so. It... Right. It's even

841
00:31:52,472 --> 00:31:54,070
worse than that. I'm sorry. I didn't mean

842
00:31:54,404 --> 00:31:56,160
Yeah. No. Not all. I mean, that's totally

843
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:57,916
right. And I think 1 of the reasons

844
00:31:57,916 --> 00:32:00,631
is that we we assume that people know.

845
00:32:00,790 --> 00:32:04,099
We're quite ego centric thinkers. So we... Feel

846
00:32:04,156 --> 00:32:06,465
appreciative of someone. We just assume that they

847
00:32:06,465 --> 00:32:08,217
know that. We think that maybe we've shown

848
00:32:08,217 --> 00:32:11,823
it in our nonverbal gestures, for example, or

849
00:32:12,373 --> 00:32:14,200
we assume that they'll remember, you know, when

850
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,663
we complemented someone 3 months ago about their

851
00:32:16,663 --> 00:32:18,887
work, we assume that they'll remember that rather

852
00:32:18,887 --> 00:32:21,320
than thinking maybe we need to show that

853
00:32:21,460 --> 00:32:23,700
appreciation again. So that's 1 of the big

854
00:32:23,700 --> 00:32:26,339
problems is this ego centric thinking. And we

855
00:32:26,339 --> 00:32:28,795
just don't recognize how much they're gonna actually

856
00:32:29,393 --> 00:32:31,626
appreciate those words as well. We underestimate that.

857
00:32:31,786 --> 00:32:33,779
And then we have some doubts about how

858
00:32:33,779 --> 00:32:35,157
good we are it's actually

859
00:32:35,773 --> 00:32:37,209
phrasing these compliments.

860
00:32:37,608 --> 00:32:38,666
Strangely people

861
00:32:38,978 --> 00:32:40,570
tend to get quite self conscious when they

862
00:32:40,570 --> 00:32:42,240
have to praise people. They worry that they're

863
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:43,297
gonna come across

864
00:32:43,673 --> 00:32:45,741
quite clumsy or that is gonna be a

865
00:32:45,741 --> 00:32:47,865
bit kinda cringe worthy when they do say

866
00:32:48,063 --> 00:32:50,523
something positive. They worry they'll be too gus.

867
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,643
The people receiving the compliments really aren't judging

868
00:32:53,857 --> 00:32:56,000
the compliments on the way they're worded. What

869
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:56,659
they really

870
00:32:56,968 --> 00:32:58,740
like Care about is just feeling

871
00:32:59,432 --> 00:33:01,045
appreciated. They look at the sentiment,

872
00:33:01,737 --> 00:33:05,314
not the particular wording behind what's being said.

873
00:33:05,632 --> 00:33:07,644
So for all these reasons, we just don't

874
00:33:07,644 --> 00:33:10,065
do it enough. It's a big loss because

875
00:33:10,285 --> 00:33:12,204
without showing that appreciation to people,

876
00:33:12,845 --> 00:33:15,252
they... Tend to feel much more negative about

877
00:33:15,252 --> 00:33:16,947
their own work. We know that in

878
00:33:17,403 --> 00:33:17,643
organizations,

879
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,964
I lack of appreciation. It's kind of it's

880
00:33:21,164 --> 00:33:23,076
as bad as actually feeling that you're not

881
00:33:23,076 --> 00:33:24,292
being adequately

882
00:33:24,748 --> 00:33:27,298
rewarded financially for what you're doing. In general,

883
00:33:27,457 --> 00:33:27,776
people,

884
00:33:28,269 --> 00:33:30,109
often say they would rather have just more

885
00:33:30,109 --> 00:33:30,609
verbal

886
00:33:30,990 --> 00:33:33,230
appreciation than they would to receive a bonus

887
00:33:33,230 --> 00:33:34,990
or a gift from their boss, for example.

888
00:33:35,325 --> 00:33:37,164
Can I ask you about something you just

889
00:33:37,164 --> 00:33:38,544
said, which is this

890
00:33:38,924 --> 00:33:41,884
really stood out to me that managers have

891
00:33:41,884 --> 00:33:42,444
a fear?

892
00:33:43,019 --> 00:33:43,679
In giving

893
00:33:44,057 --> 00:33:48,288
appreciation of coming across too gus. Mh. What's

894
00:33:48,288 --> 00:33:50,763
our fear? In other words, I'm gonna say

895
00:33:50,763 --> 00:33:52,381
that what I have found personally

896
00:33:53,091 --> 00:33:54,759
is that, let's say that you work for

897
00:33:54,759 --> 00:33:56,506
me, David, and I'm your editor.

898
00:33:57,459 --> 00:33:57,959
And

899
00:33:58,491 --> 00:34:00,238
I've just read your book for the first

900
00:34:00,238 --> 00:34:02,639
time hasn't been published yet, and I need

901
00:34:02,639 --> 00:34:04,637
to give you some feedback on it. And

902
00:34:04,717 --> 00:34:05,995
I read it, and I'm gonna give you

903
00:34:05,995 --> 00:34:09,032
my honest reaction. I thought, this is so

904
00:34:09,032 --> 00:34:10,790
well done and so thought out,

905
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,703
And it's clear to me that there were

906
00:34:14,703 --> 00:34:16,715
times when you were doing the research

907
00:34:17,170 --> 00:34:20,526
that you had to pause and diagnose deeper

908
00:34:20,526 --> 00:34:22,355
in order to get the information you got.

909
00:34:22,514 --> 00:34:23,946
So you made a decision.

910
00:34:24,662 --> 00:34:27,302
I'm not going to be superficial here and

911
00:34:27,302 --> 00:34:29,373
give people pla dudes. I'm gonna give people

912
00:34:29,373 --> 00:34:31,922
the science and then the practices that they

913
00:34:31,922 --> 00:34:34,152
need to use tied to it. And I

914
00:34:34,152 --> 00:34:36,477
just wanna compliment you and tell you that

915
00:34:36,477 --> 00:34:39,021
came through loud and clear, and as your

916
00:34:39,021 --> 00:34:39,418
editor,

917
00:34:39,895 --> 00:34:41,246
I think you did remarkable work.

918
00:34:42,677 --> 00:34:43,893
As opposed to

919
00:34:44,204 --> 00:34:45,481
think this is a really good book, and

920
00:34:45,641 --> 00:34:47,876
I think people are gonna like it. So

921
00:34:47,876 --> 00:34:50,750
the gus part is actually what I think

922
00:34:50,750 --> 00:34:52,985
people respond to. It's like, wow.

923
00:34:53,478 --> 00:34:55,705
Thank you so much for saying that. That's

924
00:34:55,705 --> 00:34:57,454
the impact. If I just say he did

925
00:34:57,454 --> 00:34:58,806
a good book here, and I think this

926
00:34:58,806 --> 00:35:01,510
is gonna sell well. It accomplishes the same

927
00:35:01,510 --> 00:35:03,751
thing on 1 level, but on the gus

928
00:35:03,751 --> 00:35:06,134
level, it doesn't have the impact that that

929
00:35:06,134 --> 00:35:08,358
we're afraid of having. Yep. So tell me

930
00:35:08,358 --> 00:35:10,503
about that. What have you learned? Yeah. I

931
00:35:10,503 --> 00:35:12,751
mean, the such shows people don't recognize

932
00:35:13,457 --> 00:35:14,729
that fact. I mean,

933
00:35:15,444 --> 00:35:17,034
again, I think it's part of this kind

934
00:35:17,034 --> 00:35:20,132
of general caution and pessimism that we have

935
00:35:20,132 --> 00:35:22,851
about our own social potential. That we tend

936
00:35:22,851 --> 00:35:25,163
to just not say enough often.

937
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,612
And that is especially true with giving compliments

938
00:35:28,909 --> 00:35:31,470
or showing gratitude is also true in our

939
00:35:31,470 --> 00:35:32,899
first situations, which I'll come to in a

940
00:35:32,899 --> 00:35:34,646
minute like when we give bad feedback as

941
00:35:34,646 --> 00:35:36,552
well, but we just tend to hold back.

942
00:35:36,710 --> 00:35:39,037
We we stick a very surface

943
00:35:39,903 --> 00:35:42,937
level approach to our interactions rather than just

944
00:35:42,937 --> 00:35:43,655
going deeper.

945
00:35:44,294 --> 00:35:47,007
And what you say is absolutely true about

946
00:35:47,007 --> 00:35:49,731
compliments is that the The research shows any

947
00:35:49,731 --> 00:35:53,385
compliment or any thank you. However, brief is

948
00:35:53,385 --> 00:35:53,862
valued,

949
00:35:54,259 --> 00:35:56,246
but the problem is that often people just

950
00:35:56,246 --> 00:35:57,040
don't give enough.

951
00:35:57,772 --> 00:36:00,720
Information. And what's really predictive of a a

952
00:36:00,720 --> 00:36:02,871
good relationship is when you show that you're

953
00:36:02,871 --> 00:36:04,168
very responsive

954
00:36:04,639 --> 00:36:06,545
by which I mean, you show all the

955
00:36:06,545 --> 00:36:09,085
qualities that you just showed, where you pick

956
00:36:09,085 --> 00:36:12,262
out very precise particular things that you appreciated,

957
00:36:12,673 --> 00:36:15,054
So you avoid the general and you actually

958
00:36:15,054 --> 00:36:17,593
look at the details. That's what really makes

959
00:36:17,593 --> 00:36:19,497
people feel that they've been seen and heard.

960
00:36:20,227 --> 00:36:23,248
And recognized, and we don't do that enough.

961
00:36:23,407 --> 00:36:25,257
So that's 1 of my laws of connection

962
00:36:25,473 --> 00:36:27,514
is just to do that more when we

963
00:36:27,634 --> 00:36:29,008
when we feel positively

964
00:36:29,383 --> 00:36:32,245
towards someone to be explicit about that and

965
00:36:32,245 --> 00:36:35,585
to go into more detail and what particular

966
00:36:35,585 --> 00:36:36,085
qualities

967
00:36:36,459 --> 00:36:36,936
we like.

968
00:36:37,429 --> 00:36:40,539
That's wonderful. What's another? K. And another 1

969
00:36:40,539 --> 00:36:43,251
is you might think it's the opposite of

970
00:36:43,251 --> 00:36:46,065
this is actually very much a similar principle

971
00:36:46,123 --> 00:36:47,653
just the other side of a coin,

972
00:36:48,292 --> 00:36:49,192
and that is

973
00:36:49,570 --> 00:36:52,124
we should be more honest with people even

974
00:36:52,124 --> 00:36:55,158
when we're bringing bad news or negative feedback.

975
00:36:55,477 --> 00:36:58,445
We underestimate the how much people really want

976
00:36:58,445 --> 00:37:01,635
to hear our honest opinion. And so we

977
00:37:01,635 --> 00:37:02,534
engage in those

978
00:37:02,911 --> 00:37:05,942
pros socialize lives or, you know, how they're

979
00:37:05,942 --> 00:37:06,442
normally

980
00:37:07,154 --> 00:37:08,991
referred to as white lies. And we've been

981
00:37:08,991 --> 00:37:11,708
quit doing this kind of act that we're

982
00:37:11,708 --> 00:37:13,840
saving people's feelings, but actually

983
00:37:14,198 --> 00:37:16,032
we're hurting them in the long run because

984
00:37:16,032 --> 00:37:17,387
we're preventing their growth.

985
00:37:17,945 --> 00:37:20,735
And people really want to be able to

986
00:37:20,735 --> 00:37:23,699
grow and improve. That's passes of something called

987
00:37:23,699 --> 00:37:26,032
self determination theory in psychology,

988
00:37:26,568 --> 00:37:29,755
which really proposes that for most people,

989
00:37:30,249 --> 00:37:32,747
learning and growth and development is a fundamental,

990
00:37:33,685 --> 00:37:34,904
intrinsic, human

991
00:37:35,283 --> 00:37:37,440
motivation. But we just neglect that often when

992
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:38,100
we're giving

993
00:37:38,413 --> 00:37:41,277
bad feedback to someone. Now you can be

994
00:37:41,277 --> 00:37:43,583
tact in how you give feedback. You know,

995
00:37:43,742 --> 00:37:45,572
the worst kind of bad feedback is actually

996
00:37:45,572 --> 00:37:47,972
to be over general, to just say that's

997
00:37:47,972 --> 00:37:50,914
absolutely awful for work. Without explaining why it

998
00:37:50,914 --> 00:37:53,934
was bad, what could be improved, the steps

999
00:37:53,934 --> 00:37:56,001
that someone could go through to improve their

1000
00:37:56,001 --> 00:37:57,789
work. So be very, very

1001
00:37:58,244 --> 00:38:00,950
precise of people will appreciate the feedback much

1002
00:38:00,950 --> 00:38:03,258
more. In general, people know when they're being

1003
00:38:03,258 --> 00:38:06,143
lied to. And it feels quite offensive quite

1004
00:38:06,143 --> 00:38:08,297
insulting. So it's not gonna enhance your connection.

1005
00:38:08,616 --> 00:38:10,849
It's not gonna improve your relationship and it's

1006
00:38:10,849 --> 00:38:13,322
just depriving the other person of their chance

1007
00:38:13,322 --> 00:38:13,880
to develop.

1008
00:38:14,453 --> 00:38:17,324
So what's our hesitation, we're feeling that we're

1009
00:38:17,324 --> 00:38:19,259
gonna hurt their feelings or

1010
00:38:19,796 --> 00:38:22,188
in other words, if in the same context,

1011
00:38:22,427 --> 00:38:24,034
I'm reading your book. And I give you

1012
00:38:24,034 --> 00:38:26,019
that positive feedback and then I said, 1

1013
00:38:26,019 --> 00:38:28,004
thing that I would like to suggest that

1014
00:38:28,004 --> 00:38:29,434
you do in your book is to be

1015
00:38:29,434 --> 00:38:31,657
a little bit more clear about XYZ.

1016
00:38:31,974 --> 00:38:32,213
Mh.

1017
00:38:32,943 --> 00:38:35,414
So you're open to that. Like, you wanna

1018
00:38:35,414 --> 00:38:37,247
make your book better, and I didn't hurt

1019
00:38:37,247 --> 00:38:39,638
your feelings by doing that. Right? So what's

1020
00:38:39,638 --> 00:38:42,125
our resistance? Giving feedback like that or are

1021
00:38:42,125 --> 00:38:44,360
you saying that it's much more critical feedback

1022
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,594
that we're reluctant to give? Yeah. I mean,

1023
00:38:47,152 --> 00:38:49,402
some people I think are to pretty reluctant

1024
00:38:49,402 --> 00:38:51,476
even to give such mild feedback as the

1025
00:38:51,476 --> 00:38:53,791
kind you just described. But, you know, sometimes

1026
00:38:53,791 --> 00:38:55,785
you'd you have to deliver worst news,

1027
00:38:56,597 --> 00:38:58,506
and I think it's in those situations, you

1028
00:38:58,506 --> 00:39:00,734
know, when you're telling someone, their book has

1029
00:39:00,734 --> 00:39:01,393
to be

1030
00:39:01,848 --> 00:39:02,348
substantially

1031
00:39:02,723 --> 00:39:05,128
rewritten. For example. Now what a lot of

1032
00:39:05,128 --> 00:39:07,062
people do is they won't exactly

1033
00:39:07,518 --> 00:39:10,705
verbal that entirely. They'll just be very vague,

1034
00:39:11,039 --> 00:39:12,705
in the feedback that they give, which isn't

1035
00:39:12,705 --> 00:39:13,340
very helpful.

1036
00:39:13,816 --> 00:39:16,117
Know, I've had this in my journalist career

1037
00:39:16,117 --> 00:39:18,498
where someone is kind of pulling their punches

1038
00:39:18,498 --> 00:39:20,259
too much see you in you get the

1039
00:39:20,259 --> 00:39:21,314
impression that they

1040
00:39:21,686 --> 00:39:23,193
maybe don't like it as much as you

1041
00:39:23,193 --> 00:39:25,516
would hoped, but they don't really tell you

1042
00:39:25,572 --> 00:39:27,078
what specifically could be...

1043
00:39:27,809 --> 00:39:30,469
Needs to be changed or improved. And so

1044
00:39:30,690 --> 00:39:32,289
you might try to take on board some

1045
00:39:32,289 --> 00:39:34,449
of their comments, but it's just very difficult

1046
00:39:34,449 --> 00:39:36,221
to do so when they are kind of

1047
00:39:36,221 --> 00:39:37,754
couch the criticism

1048
00:39:38,128 --> 00:39:40,115
in these terms. It's much better for them

1049
00:39:40,115 --> 00:39:43,159
to just be much more precise and

1050
00:39:43,469 --> 00:39:46,019
even if that is making the criticism more,

1051
00:39:46,099 --> 00:39:48,889
it's explicit and potentially more hurtful. In the

1052
00:39:48,889 --> 00:39:51,541
long run, people would rather hear that than

1053
00:39:52,013 --> 00:39:54,565
be told a half truth that then leads

1054
00:39:54,565 --> 00:39:56,798
them to produce something that is un in

1055
00:39:56,798 --> 00:39:59,350
the long term. I'll share what this is

1056
00:39:59,350 --> 00:40:02,258
at some point. But I wrote something recently.

1057
00:40:03,115 --> 00:40:05,190
And I gave it to 2 different people,

1058
00:40:05,430 --> 00:40:07,585
people that, like, have been very much involved

1059
00:40:07,585 --> 00:40:09,841
in my world and my life and

1060
00:40:10,233 --> 00:40:12,774
have, you know, seen my writing over the

1061
00:40:12,774 --> 00:40:14,998
years and have given me very good feedback

1062
00:40:14,998 --> 00:40:15,951
that I've used.

1063
00:40:16,666 --> 00:40:18,675
And so I gave them both the same

1064
00:40:18,731 --> 00:40:19,231
document

1065
00:40:20,259 --> 00:40:22,896
And the first person said, and this was

1066
00:40:22,896 --> 00:40:25,453
the first draft. So the first person said,

1067
00:40:26,812 --> 00:40:28,810
this isn't up to your standards.

1068
00:40:29,223 --> 00:40:32,239
This is not as good as you needed

1069
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,334
to be. Mh. And was like, clear on,

1070
00:40:35,652 --> 00:40:37,255
you need to make it more. Personal, you

1071
00:40:37,255 --> 00:40:39,801
need to include more information about your own

1072
00:40:39,801 --> 00:40:41,710
assessment, it can't just be tied to the

1073
00:40:41,710 --> 00:40:44,690
research link, that was the feedback. Personal So

1074
00:40:44,904 --> 00:40:47,443
it kind of was, like, wow. Like, okay.

1075
00:40:47,761 --> 00:40:49,744
I'm not living up to my own standards.

1076
00:40:50,141 --> 00:40:51,808
So then I gave it to another person,

1077
00:40:52,459 --> 00:40:55,250
And the feedback was essentially the same, David

1078
00:40:55,250 --> 00:40:56,445
where he said,

1079
00:40:57,243 --> 00:40:59,795
this could be better if you make it

1080
00:40:59,795 --> 00:41:03,072
more personal, you know, less leveraging the research.

1081
00:41:03,787 --> 00:41:06,409
And here are ways that I think you

1082
00:41:06,409 --> 00:41:07,442
could make this great.

1083
00:41:08,729 --> 00:41:11,286
And I think anybody listening to this is

1084
00:41:11,286 --> 00:41:13,545
probably going to respond by thinking

1085
00:41:13,923 --> 00:41:16,641
that guy gave me the feedback that's gonna

1086
00:41:16,641 --> 00:41:17,600
be the most helpful.

1087
00:41:18,334 --> 00:41:21,290
Because what he implied was. It's not good

1088
00:41:21,290 --> 00:41:23,447
yet, but here's how we make it great.

1089
00:41:23,766 --> 00:41:25,940
Yeah. And my my, I can make this

1090
00:41:25,940 --> 00:41:28,819
great. Like, wow. Like, okay. How.

1091
00:41:29,619 --> 00:41:31,139
So, you know, I'm having to go back

1092
00:41:31,139 --> 00:41:33,312
and rewrite the whole thing. Really, But I'm

1093
00:41:33,471 --> 00:41:35,938
I'm rewriting it with guidance that's based on

1094
00:41:35,938 --> 00:41:37,927
what I've already done and where I need

1095
00:41:37,927 --> 00:41:39,916
to go. So I was completely,

1096
00:41:40,489 --> 00:41:43,046
grateful for that kind of feedback, but the

1097
00:41:43,046 --> 00:41:45,843
difference was, 1 left me feeling like, oh,

1098
00:41:46,003 --> 00:41:48,240
man. Like, this is really not very good.

1099
00:41:48,733 --> 00:41:51,672
And another person gave me identical feedback in

1100
00:41:51,672 --> 00:41:53,737
terms of what to do, but framed it

1101
00:41:53,737 --> 00:41:55,802
in a way of, hey, let me give

1102
00:41:55,802 --> 00:41:57,231
you some guidance on how you can make

1103
00:41:57,231 --> 00:41:57,867
this thing great.

1104
00:41:58,597 --> 00:42:00,424
Yeah. I mean I think that's the crucial

1105
00:42:00,424 --> 00:42:03,125
difference. And that's why just by being totally

1106
00:42:03,125 --> 00:42:04,158
honest with people.

1107
00:42:04,635 --> 00:42:05,827
It doesn't mean that you have to be

1108
00:42:05,827 --> 00:42:06,304
tact.

1109
00:42:07,273 --> 00:42:09,687
I think when you can frame the feedback

1110
00:42:09,984 --> 00:42:12,079
constructively to really emphasize

1111
00:42:12,456 --> 00:42:15,166
how it's gonna help people to achieve their

1112
00:42:15,166 --> 00:42:17,500
goals, and how it's gonna help them to

1113
00:42:17,500 --> 00:42:20,239
grow and blend. That's when it's really

1114
00:42:20,539 --> 00:42:23,500
appreciated. But either of those scenarios in my

1115
00:42:23,500 --> 00:42:23,739
opinion,

1116
00:42:24,313 --> 00:42:26,322
would be better than someone who

1117
00:42:26,854 --> 00:42:29,340
shi away from giving the specific

1118
00:42:29,713 --> 00:42:32,309
feedback at all or any negative criticism and

1119
00:42:32,509 --> 00:42:34,660
and just told you, you know, quite bland,

1120
00:42:34,978 --> 00:42:36,412
oh, this is great. I think it's gonna

1121
00:42:36,412 --> 00:42:38,403
go down well with readers. And yet, that

1122
00:42:38,403 --> 00:42:40,554
happens too often. That's what the research shows

1123
00:42:40,554 --> 00:42:41,532
is that people

1124
00:42:42,005 --> 00:42:44,644
really do shy away from telling those home

1125
00:42:44,644 --> 00:42:46,885
truths that need to be heard. Well, you've

1126
00:42:46,885 --> 00:42:48,885
made that point really clear, and I appreciate

1127
00:42:48,885 --> 00:42:51,137
it. Is there a third? Or even a

1128
00:42:51,137 --> 00:42:52,812
fourth that you wanna add to the list

1129
00:42:52,812 --> 00:42:54,567
here because these are very powerful. The way

1130
00:42:54,567 --> 00:42:56,343
you've dissect them is really

1131
00:42:57,199 --> 00:42:59,033
you're adding nuance that I've never heard before.

1132
00:42:59,193 --> 00:43:01,676
So I appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah. There's

1133
00:43:01,676 --> 00:43:04,300
a couple. I mean, 1 is again it's

1134
00:43:04,300 --> 00:43:07,402
related to Honesty Steve. But specifically how we

1135
00:43:07,402 --> 00:43:08,356
talk about our...

1136
00:43:08,848 --> 00:43:10,539
Failures and vulnerabilities.

1137
00:43:11,231 --> 00:43:13,773
And what the research shows on this phenomenon,

1138
00:43:14,170 --> 00:43:17,054
which is called the beautiful mess effect

1139
00:43:18,157 --> 00:43:20,141
S. Is the fact that people are just

1140
00:43:20,141 --> 00:43:20,641
very

1141
00:43:21,014 --> 00:43:23,793
shy of revealing any cracks in this polished

1142
00:43:23,793 --> 00:43:25,800
for near that they might have constructed

1143
00:43:26,509 --> 00:43:28,744
It's like we have this kind of messy

1144
00:43:28,744 --> 00:43:31,219
life behind us, but we put up this

1145
00:43:31,219 --> 00:43:32,815
v in front of it, and we don't

1146
00:43:32,815 --> 00:43:34,651
want to show that there might be cracks

1147
00:43:34,651 --> 00:43:36,900
in the v or to allow people to

1148
00:43:36,900 --> 00:43:37,400
see

1149
00:43:37,777 --> 00:43:40,410
what's behind that. And that's especially true I

1150
00:43:40,410 --> 00:43:43,121
believe it's so very reluctant to to up

1151
00:43:43,121 --> 00:43:44,339
to their anxieties

1152
00:43:44,796 --> 00:43:47,210
to failures in their past to errors of

1153
00:43:47,210 --> 00:43:49,289
judgment. And now what the research shows is

1154
00:43:49,289 --> 00:43:49,949
that people

1155
00:43:50,569 --> 00:43:51,069
perceive

1156
00:43:51,609 --> 00:43:52,349
those vulnerabilities

1157
00:43:52,809 --> 00:43:54,829
much better than we expect

1158
00:43:55,463 --> 00:43:57,614
we believe that they'll see it as a

1159
00:43:57,614 --> 00:43:59,866
sign of weakness, and they'll find it alien

1160
00:44:00,003 --> 00:44:01,038
and judge us harshly,

1161
00:44:01,516 --> 00:44:03,746
but what actually occurs is that people,

1162
00:44:04,318 --> 00:44:07,503
see you as being brave and more honest,

1163
00:44:08,139 --> 00:44:10,766
and they respond really well to those 2

1164
00:44:10,766 --> 00:44:12,380
things. When you're looking

1165
00:44:12,994 --> 00:44:15,642
relationships in general, honesty and authenticity.

1166
00:44:16,121 --> 00:44:19,237
That's so hugely important. They the foundation of

1167
00:44:19,237 --> 00:44:20,835
any good social bond.

1168
00:44:21,488 --> 00:44:23,480
And then for a leader actually being seen

1169
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,189
as being strong and brave. That's an added

1170
00:44:26,189 --> 00:44:28,579
bonus. And that's what it occurs. Is true

1171
00:44:28,579 --> 00:44:30,252
in all areas of life, but there have

1172
00:44:30,252 --> 00:44:30,752
been

1173
00:44:31,143 --> 00:44:34,276
studies that specifically looked at leaders and how

1174
00:44:34,573 --> 00:44:36,887
how their followers is responded when they admitted

1175
00:44:36,887 --> 00:44:39,758
to anxieties like being scared of public speaking

1176
00:44:39,758 --> 00:44:42,483
or being scared of are flying. And what

1177
00:44:42,483 --> 00:44:44,177
they found was that those

1178
00:44:44,554 --> 00:44:47,922
disclosures actually increased their followers loyalty

1179
00:44:48,298 --> 00:44:50,152
to them. So rather than

1180
00:44:50,543 --> 00:44:52,768
seeing this person is being weak. That actually

1181
00:44:52,768 --> 00:44:54,595
saw this person is having more merit as

1182
00:44:54,595 --> 00:44:57,376
being worth more of their time and dedication.

1183
00:44:57,789 --> 00:44:59,648
You know, it's interesting because it's in the

1184
00:44:59,786 --> 00:45:01,405
conversation, you pointed out that

1185
00:45:01,784 --> 00:45:02,683
we have this

1186
00:45:03,222 --> 00:45:05,634
incorrect fear the people we meet didn't like

1187
00:45:05,634 --> 00:45:07,791
us or didn't like us as well. We

1188
00:45:07,791 --> 00:45:10,188
wanted them to, which wasn't true. We have

1189
00:45:10,188 --> 00:45:12,367
a fear of going overboard our

1190
00:45:12,746 --> 00:45:14,917
appreciation When in fact, being more generous and

1191
00:45:14,917 --> 00:45:17,870
being more descriptive is more powerful and impactful.

1192
00:45:18,588 --> 00:45:20,744
Now you're saying that we have a fear

1193
00:45:20,744 --> 00:45:22,760
of showing people who we really are

1194
00:45:23,153 --> 00:45:24,507
and that we think we have to put

1195
00:45:24,507 --> 00:45:26,920
up, you know, some sort of power driven

1196
00:45:27,137 --> 00:45:28,890
facade in order for people to take us

1197
00:45:28,890 --> 00:45:30,347
seriously and yet

1198
00:45:30,657 --> 00:45:32,960
it's just the opposite. The more vulnerable we

1199
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:34,468
can be. And that's not just saying, oh,

1200
00:45:34,627 --> 00:45:37,088
I blew it again, you know, made another

1201
00:45:37,088 --> 00:45:38,302
error it's not,

1202
00:45:38,755 --> 00:45:39,073
you know,

1203
00:45:39,882 --> 00:45:41,790
I'm a really bad leader. It's not bad.

1204
00:45:42,028 --> 00:45:43,857
It's just like, hey, I don't know everything,

1205
00:45:44,096 --> 00:45:45,447
and I'm gonna have to figure this out.

1206
00:45:45,685 --> 00:45:47,116
Maybe you can help me, You know, I'm

1207
00:45:47,116 --> 00:45:49,000
gonna make some mistakes along the way. People

1208
00:45:49,119 --> 00:45:51,032
really appreciate that. Yeah. Exactly.

1209
00:45:51,749 --> 00:45:53,901
And what it does is a consequence is

1210
00:45:53,901 --> 00:45:55,437
it also means that the

1211
00:45:55,893 --> 00:45:58,061
the alpha members of staff are gonna be

1212
00:45:58,061 --> 00:46:00,534
happier to be honest about their own errors

1213
00:46:00,534 --> 00:46:03,246
of judgment all their own anxieties. So they're

1214
00:46:03,246 --> 00:46:05,408
gonna be more willing ask for help when

1215
00:46:05,408 --> 00:46:07,550
they need it rather than struggling alone, And

1216
00:46:07,550 --> 00:46:10,009
they're more likely to make better decisions because

1217
00:46:10,009 --> 00:46:11,064
a lot of the worst

1218
00:46:11,531 --> 00:46:13,912
corporate disasters that we've seen in America, things

1219
00:46:13,912 --> 00:46:15,579
like the deep water horizon,

1220
00:46:16,055 --> 00:46:18,650
oil style, for example, a lot of those

1221
00:46:18,768 --> 00:46:21,391
kinds of big catastrophes occur because people are

1222
00:46:21,391 --> 00:46:23,537
trying to cover up their errors they're not

1223
00:46:23,537 --> 00:46:25,842
willing to be open about the mistakes they've

1224
00:46:25,842 --> 00:46:27,614
made. And so if you have a leader

1225
00:46:27,614 --> 00:46:29,534
who's willing to be open in this way,

1226
00:46:29,855 --> 00:46:31,934
it just creates a, a more open culture

1227
00:46:31,934 --> 00:46:34,666
generally, and that tends to produce better decision

1228
00:46:34,666 --> 00:46:37,614
making. I mean, you're describing psychological and emotional

1229
00:46:37,614 --> 00:46:40,403
safety aren't you? Yeah. Exactly. It is and,

1230
00:46:40,483 --> 00:46:40,801
you know,

1231
00:46:41,693 --> 00:46:44,743
embracing the beautiful mass effect is 1 way

1232
00:46:45,119 --> 00:46:45,619
encouraging

1233
00:46:45,996 --> 00:46:47,112
psychological safety.

1234
00:46:47,590 --> 00:46:49,677
And the important thing there is you can

1235
00:46:49,677 --> 00:46:51,452
encourage the psychological safety

1236
00:46:52,146 --> 00:46:54,536
without any cost to your own reputation, that

1237
00:46:54,536 --> 00:46:57,403
you're only enhancing your own reputation by doing

1238
00:46:57,403 --> 00:46:57,961
that. Great.

1239
00:46:59,010 --> 00:47:00,999
I wanna change gears here before you go,

1240
00:47:01,317 --> 00:47:03,306
I have a question unrelated to your book,

1241
00:47:03,703 --> 00:47:06,187
and then I'm gonna give you an opportunity

1242
00:47:06,187 --> 00:47:08,659
to sort of summarize anything that you'd like

1243
00:47:08,659 --> 00:47:10,893
for our audience to hear. You just happened

1244
00:47:10,893 --> 00:47:12,169
to have an article in the Wall Street

1245
00:47:12,328 --> 00:47:13,844
Journal just this week.

1246
00:47:14,482 --> 00:47:14,982
And

1247
00:47:15,373 --> 00:47:17,143
I thought it was really kind of fascinating.

1248
00:47:17,436 --> 00:47:20,053
So I wanna talk about that. You refute

1249
00:47:20,053 --> 00:47:23,067
this idea that toot one's own horn, meaning,

1250
00:47:23,559 --> 00:47:25,861
You know, playing up one's accomplishments to letting

1251
00:47:25,861 --> 00:47:28,005
people know what you're up to is an

1252
00:47:28,005 --> 00:47:30,149
un unrealized move. And what I was so

1253
00:47:30,149 --> 00:47:31,261
pleased about in reading this,

1254
00:47:31,913 --> 00:47:33,905
was that I did... I used to just

1255
00:47:33,905 --> 00:47:35,817
believe that I don't have to be telling

1256
00:47:35,817 --> 00:47:37,730
people what I'm doing. Let people judge me

1257
00:47:37,730 --> 00:47:38,947
on what I accomplished

1258
00:47:39,416 --> 00:47:41,477
And what I found is that in as

1259
00:47:41,477 --> 00:47:44,251
you grow in your career, and and particularly

1260
00:47:44,251 --> 00:47:46,074
if you're working in a larger organization.

1261
00:47:46,804 --> 00:47:49,121
That there are people that have... They're not

1262
00:47:49,121 --> 00:47:50,960
really paying close enough attention to what you're

1263
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:53,677
doing to really know unless you do to

1264
00:47:53,677 --> 00:47:55,375
your own horn. So

1265
00:47:55,688 --> 00:47:57,438
tell us a little bit about what the

1266
00:47:57,438 --> 00:47:59,744
research shows and also some guidance on how

1267
00:47:59,744 --> 00:48:02,289
to do some successful bragging. Yeah. I mean,

1268
00:48:02,447 --> 00:48:04,038
I'm really glad that you brought this up

1269
00:48:04,038 --> 00:48:06,439
because it's actually my eighth floor, and I

1270
00:48:06,439 --> 00:48:07,177
think it

1271
00:48:07,553 --> 00:48:10,337
relates very closely to what we've spoken about,

1272
00:48:11,053 --> 00:48:12,644
you know, all of what we've spoken about.

1273
00:48:12,882 --> 00:48:15,206
And the fact is we're just we benefit

1274
00:48:15,206 --> 00:48:17,777
from being more open whether that is

1275
00:48:18,472 --> 00:48:21,442
about just being honest in general, giving negative

1276
00:48:21,659 --> 00:48:22,876
feedback, showing

1277
00:48:23,253 --> 00:48:23,492
appreciation.

1278
00:48:24,144 --> 00:48:25,363
Talking about our vulnerabilities,

1279
00:48:25,741 --> 00:48:28,216
but also we benefit from being open about

1280
00:48:28,216 --> 00:48:29,115
our successes

1281
00:48:29,493 --> 00:48:32,048
much more than we expect. And again, this

1282
00:48:32,048 --> 00:48:33,666
is a psychological barrier

1283
00:48:33,979 --> 00:48:36,776
that's caused by an un compounded fear, and

1284
00:48:36,776 --> 00:48:37,995
that is that people

1285
00:48:38,534 --> 00:48:41,411
will feel alienate by our success that they'll

1286
00:48:41,411 --> 00:48:42,744
resent it that they'll feel

1287
00:48:43,264 --> 00:48:45,578
malicious envy mv and that will be punished

1288
00:48:45,578 --> 00:48:47,515
as a result. And the research

1289
00:48:47,893 --> 00:48:50,448
really shows those fears are un unfairly that

1290
00:48:50,448 --> 00:48:52,934
it doesn't happen this way, And actually, what

1291
00:48:52,934 --> 00:48:55,085
really damages the relationship is when you hide

1292
00:48:55,085 --> 00:48:57,974
your success because that scene has being very

1293
00:48:58,190 --> 00:48:58,690
pate

1294
00:48:59,067 --> 00:49:01,705
and condescending to, to hide your access to

1295
00:49:01,705 --> 00:49:03,768
someone suggest you don't hold them in very

1296
00:49:03,768 --> 00:49:06,546
high esteem because you kind of think, well,

1297
00:49:06,784 --> 00:49:09,189
their success hasn't matched jaws, so they're gonna

1298
00:49:09,418 --> 00:49:11,482
they're gonna crumble or you're treating them as

1299
00:49:11,482 --> 00:49:13,887
if there's some kind of, you know, spoil

1300
00:49:14,102 --> 00:49:16,325
Brat child is gonna have a tantrum when

1301
00:49:16,325 --> 00:49:18,961
they don't win every board game. So people

1302
00:49:18,961 --> 00:49:20,869
pretty much find it very expensive when they

1303
00:49:20,869 --> 00:49:23,255
find there's someone that they know even someone

1304
00:49:23,255 --> 00:49:25,959
that they know Vaguely has hidden a success

1305
00:49:25,959 --> 00:49:27,648
from them. So It's just a big no

1306
00:49:27,648 --> 00:49:29,723
no and that absolutely applies in the office

1307
00:49:29,723 --> 00:49:31,478
as well. And so we should be more

1308
00:49:31,478 --> 00:49:33,793
open, but again, like you said, we don't

1309
00:49:33,793 --> 00:49:36,784
want tutor to own horn. At every opportunity

1310
00:49:37,083 --> 00:49:38,062
too loudly.

1311
00:49:38,441 --> 00:49:40,518
And so there are some rules for effective

1312
00:49:40,518 --> 00:49:43,395
bragging. And they are number 1, just be

1313
00:49:43,395 --> 00:49:45,805
honest about what you've achieved. If you start

1314
00:49:45,805 --> 00:49:48,439
exaggerating what you've achieved. That's when people do

1315
00:49:48,439 --> 00:49:51,233
tend to judge you very negatively because that

1316
00:49:51,233 --> 00:49:52,212
looks manipulative.

1317
00:49:52,844 --> 00:49:55,175
Who reduces the perceptions of since,

1318
00:49:55,710 --> 00:49:58,736
which is destroying that foundation of any relationship,

1319
00:49:58,895 --> 00:50:00,988
which is that you're telling the truth

1320
00:50:01,378 --> 00:50:04,801
The second rule is to avoid social comparison.

1321
00:50:05,278 --> 00:50:07,586
Don't try to drag other people into your

1322
00:50:07,586 --> 00:50:08,882
brag to make you

1323
00:50:09,192 --> 00:50:12,075
look even better. So if you're talking about

1324
00:50:12,210 --> 00:50:12,369
promotion,

1325
00:50:13,163 --> 00:50:14,195
sales performance,

1326
00:50:14,751 --> 00:50:16,657
you know, personal best at the gym even,

1327
00:50:17,149 --> 00:50:19,141
don't start talking about other people and how

1328
00:50:19,141 --> 00:50:21,770
you compared to them because it suggest that

1329
00:50:21,770 --> 00:50:24,023
you're drawing up this kind of mental hierarchy.

1330
00:50:24,734 --> 00:50:27,124
And that is very off putting because even

1331
00:50:27,124 --> 00:50:28,978
if you're not drawing the the listener

1332
00:50:29,514 --> 00:50:30,014
specifically

1333
00:50:30,630 --> 00:50:31,347
into that bag,

1334
00:50:32,079 --> 00:50:34,019
There's always left open the possibility

1335
00:50:34,319 --> 00:50:36,739
that if you are so concerned about hierarchy

1336
00:50:37,199 --> 00:50:40,239
and status that you're judging them negatively to

1337
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:41,119
in some other way.

1338
00:50:41,772 --> 00:50:43,860
Very off putting, it's not likely to build

1339
00:50:43,996 --> 00:50:47,411
a good relationship. And finally, just be open

1340
00:50:47,411 --> 00:50:49,238
about the challenges that you faced on the

1341
00:50:49,238 --> 00:50:51,642
way. To your success. Only if it's appropriate.

1342
00:50:51,881 --> 00:50:54,273
Sometimes we do just have a wonderful stroke

1343
00:50:54,273 --> 00:50:56,265
of good luck offerings just go our way.

1344
00:50:56,504 --> 00:50:58,672
We don't have to make up challenges to

1345
00:50:58,672 --> 00:51:01,407
please offer people. But if you have faced

1346
00:51:01,546 --> 00:51:02,764
disappointment from failures

1347
00:51:03,222 --> 00:51:05,877
or just some hurdles that you overcame creatively,

1348
00:51:06,589 --> 00:51:08,526
it's just worth mentioning that people

1349
00:51:08,984 --> 00:51:10,979
like to know that if there's been a

1350
00:51:10,979 --> 00:51:14,353
bumpy rocky road to success because that ultimately

1351
00:51:14,412 --> 00:51:16,505
makes what you say more inspiring.

1352
00:51:16,984 --> 00:51:19,384
It shows the person that you that if

1353
00:51:19,384 --> 00:51:21,144
you've achieved it well they might be able

1354
00:51:21,144 --> 00:51:23,384
to achieve what you've you've managed as well.

1355
00:51:23,959 --> 00:51:26,603
There was a study that looked specifically at

1356
00:51:26,817 --> 00:51:27,317
entrepreneurs

1357
00:51:27,691 --> 00:51:28,961
who were making

1358
00:51:29,517 --> 00:51:31,661
pitches to receive funding who spoke about the

1359
00:51:31,661 --> 00:51:32,693
previous track record.

1360
00:51:33,424 --> 00:51:37,041
Entrepreneurs who brag about their successes, but also

1361
00:51:37,420 --> 00:51:39,658
spoke a bit about the challenges. They were

1362
00:51:39,658 --> 00:51:41,976
just perceived much better than those who only

1363
00:51:41,976 --> 00:51:44,459
spoke about the success without talking about the

1364
00:51:44,459 --> 00:51:45,968
journey that got them to where they were.

1365
00:51:46,285 --> 00:51:47,556
I mean, I think we do have a

1366
00:51:47,556 --> 00:51:50,096
fantasy that other people's successes are easier than

1367
00:51:50,096 --> 00:51:53,609
our own Right? So Right. When somebody's excel

1368
00:51:53,609 --> 00:51:55,518
and they're like, yeah. I failed 3 times.

1369
00:51:55,757 --> 00:51:58,222
You're like, oh, like, oh, son and I.

1370
00:51:58,540 --> 00:52:00,469
You know? So, yeah. Think that's why that

1371
00:52:00,469 --> 00:52:02,630
goes better with the Vc group because that

1372
00:52:02,630 --> 00:52:04,070
they know that they're investing in a lot

1373
00:52:04,070 --> 00:52:06,309
of businesses that don't make it and it'd

1374
00:52:06,309 --> 00:52:07,750
be better to have a leader that was

1375
00:52:07,750 --> 00:52:09,831
honest about that than to say everything I've

1376
00:52:09,831 --> 00:52:11,973
touched is gone to gold. It's like, oh,

1377
00:52:12,369 --> 00:52:12,528
yeah,

1378
00:52:13,242 --> 00:52:15,065
that's not who we wanna go with. Hey,

1379
00:52:15,303 --> 00:52:17,701
David. We're gonna stop here for a moment

1380
00:52:17,701 --> 00:52:19,608
and move into what we call the heartbeat

1381
00:52:19,608 --> 00:52:21,834
round. I think I've got 12 or 13

1382
00:52:21,834 --> 00:52:22,231
questions,

1383
00:52:22,867 --> 00:52:24,615
more personal in nature that I wanna ask

1384
00:52:24,615 --> 00:52:26,538
you, and I'd like to have you answer

1385
00:52:26,538 --> 00:52:28,309
these more instinctively,

1386
00:52:29,240 --> 00:52:31,545
in a heartbeat in other words. Are you

1387
00:52:31,545 --> 00:52:34,008
up for that? Absolutely. Alright. Great.

1388
00:52:34,739 --> 00:52:36,897
Something you specifically learned in the process of

1389
00:52:36,897 --> 00:52:38,176
writing your book on connection.

1390
00:52:39,055 --> 00:52:40,653
Yeah. I mean, the thing that I learned

1391
00:52:40,653 --> 00:52:43,610
really was to practice why I preach suffered

1392
00:52:43,610 --> 00:52:44,110
from

1393
00:52:44,424 --> 00:52:47,455
social anxiety in the past and learning about

1394
00:52:47,455 --> 00:52:49,210
all of these laws of connections just really

1395
00:52:49,210 --> 00:52:51,523
opened me out and help me to just

1396
00:52:51,523 --> 00:52:53,836
feel much more confident in my own interactions,

1397
00:52:53,995 --> 00:52:56,079
which helped personally and professionally.

1398
00:52:56,635 --> 00:52:58,862
Great. That's piece of advice you've ever been

1399
00:52:58,862 --> 00:52:59,101
given.

1400
00:52:59,817 --> 00:53:01,964
This cassandra writing but I think it applies

1401
00:53:01,964 --> 00:53:04,547
to any skill, and it's just to recognize

1402
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:08,261
when you're learning something new, it's a journey,

1403
00:53:08,579 --> 00:53:11,934
and you can't always produce your best result,

1404
00:53:12,093 --> 00:53:13,445
but you have to just look at the

1405
00:53:13,445 --> 00:53:15,911
kind of mean of your results so far

1406
00:53:15,911 --> 00:53:17,954
and where you're going in the future. So

1407
00:53:18,074 --> 00:53:19,825
just try to make sure that on average,

1408
00:53:20,063 --> 00:53:21,893
your performance is a little bit better than

1409
00:53:21,893 --> 00:53:22,871
it was previously.

1410
00:53:23,485 --> 00:53:25,417
What I found with that was that it

1411
00:53:25,886 --> 00:53:27,235
helped to take away a lot of the

1412
00:53:27,235 --> 00:53:29,854
performance anxiety I had, when I I was

1413
00:53:29,854 --> 00:53:32,076
starting out journalists trying to write, you know,

1414
00:53:32,235 --> 00:53:33,742
each time I wanted to write my best

1415
00:53:33,742 --> 00:53:36,242
piece ever, and that just isn't statistically

1416
00:53:36,614 --> 00:53:38,836
possible to do. But what you can do

1417
00:53:38,836 --> 00:53:40,661
is to try to look at the the

1418
00:53:40,661 --> 00:53:42,590
long time journey there and to

1419
00:53:42,978 --> 00:53:45,206
to just make sure that you're making incremental

1420
00:53:45,206 --> 00:53:45,603
process,

1421
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:48,069
2 steps forward for every 1 step back.

1422
00:53:48,467 --> 00:53:49,581
I like the word journey.

1423
00:53:50,074 --> 00:53:52,865
The healthy perspective? What's the worst piece of

1424
00:53:52,865 --> 00:53:54,061
advice you've ever break given.

1425
00:53:55,737 --> 00:53:57,731
Okay. That was right when I was an

1426
00:53:57,731 --> 00:54:00,454
intern at new scientist, which is and magazine

1427
00:54:00,454 --> 00:54:01,168
in the Uk.

1428
00:54:02,358 --> 00:54:05,610
My editor told me to leave behind neuroscience

1429
00:54:05,610 --> 00:54:07,855
and psychology and told me to focus on

1430
00:54:08,164 --> 00:54:08,664
technology.

1431
00:54:09,045 --> 00:54:11,385
And our technology just wasn't a subject that

1432
00:54:11,684 --> 00:54:14,325
especially fascinated me the human mind was. And

1433
00:54:14,325 --> 00:54:16,184
so I ignored his advice

1434
00:54:16,578 --> 00:54:18,804
I followed my instincts financially, I've never looked

1435
00:54:18,804 --> 00:54:20,872
back. It's really... Is where my passion is.

1436
00:54:21,111 --> 00:54:21,849
Well the

1437
00:54:22,224 --> 00:54:24,371
cultural value every team should have.

1438
00:54:25,736 --> 00:54:26,927
Humility without a doubt.

1439
00:54:27,561 --> 00:54:29,784
1 call you consider most essential to your

1440
00:54:29,784 --> 00:54:31,633
personal success. Curiosity,

1441
00:54:32,339 --> 00:54:34,333
I think it's so hugely important for any

1442
00:54:34,333 --> 00:54:37,067
writer. But fundamentally, I think it's important for

1443
00:54:37,284 --> 00:54:39,996
all kinds of careers because when we're curious

1444
00:54:39,996 --> 00:54:41,911
we're more likely to make better decisions.

1445
00:54:42,722 --> 00:54:44,794
Subject you believe all managers would be wise

1446
00:54:44,794 --> 00:54:45,591
to bone up on.

1447
00:54:46,547 --> 00:54:48,698
Oh my. Yeah. That's a difficult 1.

1448
00:54:49,907 --> 00:54:51,971
I think cognitive bias, which I know lots

1449
00:54:51,971 --> 00:54:54,432
of managers are burning up on, but I

1450
00:54:54,432 --> 00:54:56,655
think you can ever be too aware of

1451
00:54:56,655 --> 00:54:58,402
the, of your potential for error.

1452
00:54:59,213 --> 00:55:01,369
Quote that best captures your life philosophy.

1453
00:55:02,167 --> 00:55:05,440
Okay. This is from Shakespeare from hamlet,

1454
00:55:06,079 --> 00:55:08,570
and it is that there is neither a

1455
00:55:08,570 --> 00:55:10,730
good or bad, but thinking makes it so.

1456
00:55:10,969 --> 00:55:13,769
Mh. And there's a superficial interpretation of that,

1457
00:55:13,929 --> 00:55:14,429
which

1458
00:55:14,730 --> 00:55:16,969
you could take us the suggesting you should

1459
00:55:16,969 --> 00:55:17,964
have this poly

1460
00:55:18,743 --> 00:55:20,261
attitude and always just see the best in

1461
00:55:20,261 --> 00:55:22,499
everything. But the way I perceive it is

1462
00:55:22,499 --> 00:55:22,999
just

1463
00:55:23,378 --> 00:55:24,677
recognizing that there are multiple

1464
00:55:25,296 --> 00:55:26,550
interpretations of an event

1465
00:55:26,987 --> 00:55:28,020
even a very bad,

1466
00:55:28,655 --> 00:55:31,596
disappointing stressful event. And that if you can

1467
00:55:31,596 --> 00:55:32,573
manage to

1468
00:55:32,947 --> 00:55:35,172
to see some potential for growth in those

1469
00:55:35,172 --> 00:55:37,358
events, it's gonna make you much more psychologically

1470
00:55:37,892 --> 00:55:39,006
resilient. Brilliant.

1471
00:55:39,723 --> 00:55:41,792
1 thing you can't live without. I have

1472
00:55:41,792 --> 00:55:43,543
to say it's food, and I just couldn't

1473
00:55:43,543 --> 00:55:44,896
live about cheese. I'm afraid.

1474
00:55:45,943 --> 00:55:48,084
That's great. Life lesson you wish you'd weren't

1475
00:55:48,084 --> 00:55:48,481
earlier.

1476
00:55:49,036 --> 00:55:50,623
So I'm afraid it's gonna have to go

1477
00:55:50,623 --> 00:55:52,075
back to my book and it's

1478
00:55:52,384 --> 00:55:55,341
the existence of the liking gap. I just

1479
00:55:55,341 --> 00:55:56,480
think I would have formed

1480
00:55:57,019 --> 00:55:59,336
so many more friendships early on in my

1481
00:55:59,336 --> 00:56:01,985
life if I heard recognize recognized that people

1482
00:56:01,985 --> 00:56:03,977
probably liked me as much as I like

1483
00:56:03,977 --> 00:56:06,789
them. And so I hadn't turned down

1484
00:56:07,643 --> 00:56:10,364
invitations to parties for example imagining that I

1485
00:56:10,364 --> 00:56:12,510
was only invited down to politeness, but I

1486
00:56:12,510 --> 00:56:15,133
had really just followed in the sense that

1487
00:56:15,133 --> 00:56:17,677
actually, you know, people appreciated my company.

1488
00:56:18,327 --> 00:56:20,471
What should be required reading for every human

1489
00:56:20,471 --> 00:56:20,710
alive?

1490
00:56:22,139 --> 00:56:23,807
I apart for my foot obviously.

1491
00:56:24,681 --> 00:56:26,190
You're not the first way Who tried that.

1492
00:56:29,863 --> 00:56:30,500
A tough 1.

1493
00:56:31,216 --> 00:56:34,002
I mean, I read Anna Karen last year,

1494
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:35,833
and I have to say, I think it's

1495
00:56:35,833 --> 00:56:37,400
the most profound piece of interest

1496
00:56:38,079 --> 00:56:40,079
hybrid bread, and it's so rich. I think

1497
00:56:40,079 --> 00:56:41,839
especially on the topic of, of,

1498
00:56:42,559 --> 00:56:45,735
relationships, and there's many different flavors of relationships

1499
00:56:45,855 --> 00:56:47,612
that we have. So, yeah. I'm gonna go

1500
00:56:47,612 --> 00:56:49,849
to full story. That's great. And very few

1501
00:56:49,849 --> 00:56:52,405
people have ever given me fiction. So that's

1502
00:56:52,405 --> 00:56:54,568
interesting that Prediction about the future, you're pretty

1503
00:56:54,568 --> 00:56:55,521
certain will come true.

1504
00:56:56,316 --> 00:56:58,777
I think there's, like, so little doubt the

1505
00:56:58,857 --> 00:57:01,001
Ai is gonna completely disrupt.

1506
00:57:01,652 --> 00:57:04,829
So many industries, including my own, but I

1507
00:57:04,829 --> 00:57:06,894
don't think we can predict exactly what will

1508
00:57:06,894 --> 00:57:08,641
happen, but we have to be prepared to

1509
00:57:08,641 --> 00:57:09,356
be flexible.

1510
00:57:09,928 --> 00:57:12,476
Honestly, these were very provocative answers and very

1511
00:57:12,476 --> 00:57:14,307
thoughtful. So thank you for going through that

1512
00:57:14,307 --> 00:57:16,377
with me. No I I really enjoyed it.

1513
00:57:16,536 --> 00:57:17,731
Yeah. Thanks for the questions.

1514
00:57:18,544 --> 00:57:20,941
As I said, before we go here, David,

1515
00:57:21,100 --> 00:57:23,817
what's single most actionable and specific piece of

1516
00:57:23,817 --> 00:57:25,335
advice that you can give us all...

1517
00:57:25,909 --> 00:57:28,799
For the purpose of cultivating and sustaining greater

1518
00:57:28,857 --> 00:57:29,915
connection in our lives

1519
00:57:30,371 --> 00:57:32,283
and in the lives of the people that

1520
00:57:32,283 --> 00:57:32,761
we manage.

1521
00:57:33,652 --> 00:57:36,124
So I think like the common theme and

1522
00:57:36,124 --> 00:57:37,661
all of this is just

1523
00:57:38,117 --> 00:57:41,067
that we we do have the psychological barriers

1524
00:57:41,067 --> 00:57:41,226
that

1525
00:57:42,039 --> 00:57:44,836
often based on these un unwanted fears, and

1526
00:57:44,836 --> 00:57:47,313
it's just to be willing to push yourself

1527
00:57:47,313 --> 00:57:49,630
out of your comfort zone a little bit

1528
00:57:49,630 --> 00:57:52,114
and to to recognize that you can afford

1529
00:57:52,114 --> 00:57:52,773
to be

1530
00:57:53,147 --> 00:57:55,532
brave in your interactions. You can afford to

1531
00:57:55,532 --> 00:57:57,122
be more open. You can afford to be

1532
00:57:57,122 --> 00:57:57,860
more gus

1533
00:57:58,489 --> 00:58:00,804
you might feel that you're exposing yourself that

1534
00:58:00,804 --> 00:58:02,639
you're making yourself vulnerable with all of this.

1535
00:58:02,879 --> 00:58:05,693
But what the research shows that's this the

1536
00:58:05,831 --> 00:58:08,811
relationships really thrive on that. It's only by

1537
00:58:08,947 --> 00:58:11,407
engaging in self disclosure that you can build

1538
00:58:11,407 --> 00:58:12,145
a meaningful

1539
00:58:12,518 --> 00:58:13,788
bond with another person,

1540
00:58:14,518 --> 00:58:16,747
and it might feel a little bit scary

1541
00:58:16,747 --> 00:58:19,851
to do so, but you're gonna benefit so

1542
00:58:19,851 --> 00:58:21,682
much from that process. And the more you

1543
00:58:21,682 --> 00:58:24,407
do it, the more comfortable you'll feel with

1544
00:58:24,407 --> 00:58:27,038
this. There's another big take home message of

1545
00:58:27,038 --> 00:58:29,829
this research is that practicing our social skills

1546
00:58:29,829 --> 00:58:32,074
is the only way to build them. If

1547
00:58:32,074 --> 00:58:34,062
they're like a muscle that can atrophy quite

1548
00:58:34,062 --> 00:58:34,562
easily

1549
00:58:34,937 --> 00:58:37,164
with use, but you can build that social

1550
00:58:37,164 --> 00:58:37,664
confidence

1551
00:58:38,213 --> 00:58:39,959
by just putting them into practice every day.

1552
00:58:40,277 --> 00:58:42,023
And so we can apply that to ourselves,

1553
00:58:42,499 --> 00:58:44,960
we can also just look to provide those

1554
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:47,438
opportunities for the people around us the people

1555
00:58:47,438 --> 00:58:49,613
that we're mentoring the people that we're managing

1556
00:58:49,911 --> 00:58:52,303
or leading. Just bear in mind it's gonna

1557
00:58:52,303 --> 00:58:55,334
create a better community within an organization where

1558
00:58:55,334 --> 00:58:57,902
people feel more belonging and it's gonna improve

1559
00:58:57,902 --> 00:58:59,896
the culture. You could not have done a

1560
00:58:59,896 --> 00:59:02,049
better job in this podcast, David. So thank

1561
00:59:02,049 --> 00:59:03,565
you very much in terms of what I

1562
00:59:03,565 --> 00:59:06,276
was hoping what we'd accomplish here. I'm gus.

1563
00:59:07,168 --> 00:59:10,276
I'm really, really happy. So it's fascinating. And

1564
00:59:10,276 --> 00:59:12,347
it's enlighten, and it's timely.

1565
00:59:12,984 --> 00:59:15,473
So on behalf of myself and my audience.

1566
00:59:15,713 --> 00:59:17,231
Thank you so very much for joining me.

1567
00:59:17,391 --> 00:59:18,670
I'm really am very grateful.

1568
00:59:19,149 --> 00:59:20,987
Thank you. I'm really grateful for having being

1569
00:59:20,987 --> 00:59:23,156
invited. Well, best to you, sir, Thank you.

1570
00:59:23,473 --> 00:59:25,616
Nice meeting you. Bye bye. You too. Can

1571
00:59:25,616 --> 00:59:26,330
you take care out. Bye?

1572
00:59:32,309 --> 00:59:34,303
Before Go, I wanna quickly mention that I

1573
00:59:34,303 --> 00:59:36,218
just had a new article published in fast

1574
00:59:36,218 --> 00:59:39,499
company magazine title. Leaders don't really care about

1575
00:59:39,499 --> 00:59:41,089
employee engagement here's why.

1576
00:59:41,725 --> 00:59:43,475
I posted this on Linkedin and you can

1577
00:59:43,475 --> 00:59:44,986
find it on my website or you can

1578
00:59:44,986 --> 00:59:47,887
also Google it. The big picture is that

1579
00:59:47,944 --> 00:59:50,330
employee engagement as a metric has never really

1580
00:59:50,330 --> 00:59:52,796
influenced the positive change in management behavior.

1581
00:59:53,527 --> 00:59:55,436
And we've been in for well over a

1582
00:59:55,436 --> 00:59:55,754
decade.

1583
00:59:56,311 --> 00:59:58,617
But new research proves. It's time we stop

1584
00:59:58,617 --> 01:00:01,401
concerning ourselves with engagement because there's another far

1585
01:00:01,401 --> 01:00:04,673
more effective and simple measure that will indeed

1586
01:00:04,673 --> 01:00:07,294
force an elevation and workplace leadership behavior.

1587
01:00:08,009 --> 01:00:09,438
Find out what it is when you read

1588
01:00:09,438 --> 01:00:12,329
the peace. Again, it's called leaders don't really

1589
01:00:12,329 --> 01:00:15,050
care about employee engagement with here's why. I

1590
01:00:15,050 --> 01:00:17,784
wanna thank my exceptional team miss Ken Boy,

1591
01:00:18,023 --> 01:00:21,460
Carrie Finn, Rad anna Boy, and my rather

1592
01:00:21,460 --> 01:00:23,777
talented an engineer and producer, mister Eric Oz,

1593
01:00:23,938 --> 01:00:26,655
who makes every show. Sounds so wonderful.

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01:00:27,387 --> 01:00:29,061
And I also wanna thank all the employees

1595
01:00:29,061 --> 01:00:31,771
and managers at Chevron. And finally, I leave

1596
01:00:31,771 --> 01:00:33,786
you with my 2 consistent reminders

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01:00:34,243 --> 01:00:36,012
when you leave from the heart, your people

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01:00:36,012 --> 01:00:36,752
will follow

1599
01:00:37,290 --> 01:00:39,765
and love your people. This is Mark Crowley.

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Thanking you so much for listening, and I'm

1601
01:00:42,319 --> 01:00:43,357
signing off for now.