Hello. I'm Rhonda Morris, vice president and Chief
human Resources officer at Chevron.
Chevron is proud to sponsor the lead from
the heart podcast.
Today, my colleague, Frank Mount, Vice President of
Corporate business development will share a brief. Story
about a leader who's simple and kind act
had a long lasting influence on his career
and how he leads others
Thanks, Rhonda. I'm looking forward to share my
experience with great leadership.
I've been blessed to work with many very
strong leaders during my career at Chevron.
And some that I've noticed,
leader's care.
They take the time to get to know
the whole you.
They understand that it's a marathon,
versus a sprint.
1 story that really stands out for me.
In a prior role, I led investor Relations
for Chevron and was responsible for successful quarterly
earnings calls.
Mike Worth, our current Ceo
took over in 20 18 and his first
earnings call after assuming the rains was the
last Friday in January in 20 18.
With a big prep day being the Thursday
before that call in California.
And as my bad luck would have it,
I had a big conflict.
My daughter, who was an Avid soccer player
was being honored on Senior night for her
last high school soccer game on a very
same night. The problem was it was in
Dallas.
Mike knew how important the event was to
our family,
He agreed to a plan that had me
working from Dallas on the prep day and
taking the 10PM flight after the game back
to California
to make it for the Friday morning call.
I won't forget he understood the important to
our family and his vision a long term
made me even more committed to Chevron.
Now, let's get on with the show.
Hello, everyone. This is Mark Crowley, and you're
listening to the lead from the hard podcast.
Welcome.
You know, 4 years ago when we were
all dispensed to our homes to work during
Covid. We lost a massive amount of our
routine connection with other human beings. And when
offices reopened a year later and remote working
became more normalized, vip for many people.
Very few of us ever really regained the
number of face to face interactions that we
had, we used to have with people
before the pandemic hit us.
So something that I've been thinking about a
lot lately, and it's probably come through in
certain threads in previous episodes. Is this question,
how is this working for us? In other
words, what might we be losing by not
running into colleagues in the hallways as often
as we used to? How might working alone
even a few days a week be affecting
our well being long term?
And are people getting any meaningful sense of
connection from all the Zoom calls that we
attend,
particularly from people who say that they just
assume never returned to working in an office.
There's a belief that We really don't need
to have any more than a transactional
relationship with our work colleagues. We have plenty
of connection with our friends and family already.
We're.
Heading into today's podcast, I can honestly say
I've never accepted this assertion. I know too
much about the human heart and what it
needs in order to thrive to accept the
idea that we're not being meaningfully harmed by
having fewer and fewer face to face interactions.
A survey published by the American Psychological
Association recently caught my eye. It found that
listen up 45 percent of workers aged 18
to 25
feel lonely
while they're working.
And this surprised me because this is the
same generation that as the most would take
technology and has also said that working in
an office has become archaic.
Long came, David Rob,
Science writer who recently did a deep dive
into the very questions that I was asking,
and he just published a book called the
laws of connection. The scientific secrets of building
a strong social network. A book not only
recently spotlight in the Wall Street Journal, but
was just named a next big idea must
read pick by Adam Brandt, Malcolm Glad well,
Susan Cain and Daniel Pink.
So we picked this well.
In his research, David tap recent studies in
psychology and neuroscience that fully confirm something we
might have already guessed.
Social connection,
proves to be vital to our mental health,
our well being and our longevity, and we
should be as committed to cultivating
relationships as we are exercising or watching our
diets.
There's simply no sign that hybrid work schedules
will end and that all of us will
once again return to offices 5 days a
week.
So if we're not all getting the connection
that we used to get and still need
what's the remedy?
In our conversation with David, we're gonna explore
ways that we can all reestablish and form
robust social ties.
In his book key explores evidence based strategies
for enhancing our own social connections
and explains why workplace managers
are now very wise to actively help their
people reg grow their personal network as well.
So what's the upside for doing all this.
Well, let me welcome our guests to the
pie guest, and we'll find out together. And
with that, welcome to you, sir, mister David
Rob. It's my pleasure Thanks for helping me
on. Well, thanks for coming across the pond
to join us
through the ether,
I like to just get right into it.
So at a time when study show that
we have fewer close friends in our lives.
Weaker personal connections with the people we work
with every day. And
the constant temptation to use technology to communicate
instead of meet face to face,
What does your research suggest needs to happen
next? Like, are we needing a significant pivot
in our collective behavior
is that we're where we're heading in this
conversation? Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, we... Basically, we
know that social connection is important for pretty
much anything that we value in life. So
to give some examples.
There's just a huge body of research now
showing that social connection it's fundamental to our
physical health. That's actually the best research area
when it comes to looking at the consequences
of social connection and loneliness.
It's seems almost forever disease you're looking at
where that is whether you catch the common
colds to
your likelihood of developing type 2 diabetes,
alzheimer's disease, cardiovascular
disease, how likely you are to have a
stroke or a heart attack All of this
seems to be exacerbated
by loneliness. And
as to a certain extent, the risk is
mitigated
by having lots of social connection. That's really
solid evidence now. It's a bit like exercise.
In fact. You know, having good social connection
is just is a very good form of
medicine, and that's why scientists talk about the
social cure. But if you look beyond health,
there's
that having good social connection with our colleagues
can improve our well being at work is
1 of the best predictor of who's happiest
who has the best job satisfaction,
and also conversely
a lack of social connection, a lack of
appreciation. Is 1 of the biggest predictor of
burnout.
When we look at our actual performance in
the workplace, we know that having more social
connection seems to be involved in creativity so
people with more varied social networks tend to
come up with more original ideas because they're
exposed to different perspectives, which they can then
incorporate and their work.
So we might have been the past Think
often seen socializing
as something that was a bit of an
optional extra in the workplace. I know that,
you know, I've been to infuse where I
was told it wasn't the kind of office
where you have water cooler alert conversations. Well,
you know, that was a creative agency, and
they were missing out on a really big
and important factor.
The success of the individual end of the
company.
You've just done a great job of setting
this hot, and in fact, it stood out
to me that when you talk about
I'm gonna ask you for the scientific
explanation for this that our physical health is
actually
amended and supported and reinforced.
By building connections. And that not only is
that in fact, well, Longevity, but I found
it interesting because of the theme of our
podcast,
that it directly affects heart health.
And so my interpretation is that nature almost
wants to punish us for not building
connection or the reciprocal, which is it rewards
us for building connection. And so as I'm
listening to you I'm thinking well, why. Like,
what's the scientific
explanation for this? What's going on inside of
us when we connect with people? Right. I
mean, so that's something that... Makes me so
convinced about this research because when you look
at the connections between social connection and health,
you know, a lot of those are correlation
studies that
observational studies that follow people
through their lives and you can see that
people who feel lonely at time 1,
then develop these illnesses,
you know, years later. So there does seem
to be this temporal link, but then they...
The scientists eventually looked at the potential mechanisms,
what it really boils down to
is that in our revolutionary history,
having social connection was just really fundamental
to our physical safety,
we depended on others for the pooled resources
of the group, all of that food that
we might be hoarding over the winter, for
example,
to offset famine, and then we depended on
on the other group members to protect from
predators or from other groups who might be
hostile towards our own.
Now what their brain evolved to do then
was to trigger this kind of warning when
we noticed that we're being socially excluded so
that we we will try to tend to
those relationships and repair them in much the
same way that when we have physical pain,
it tells us to look after our bodies
and to protect our wounds,
while social pain is really helping us to
do the same with our relationships.
But more than that then it's also changing
the physiology of the body.
And that's because if you were being socially
excluded and sidelined from your grave or maybe
kicked out of the group altogether,
the nature of the threats that you're gonna
face changed.
In a group, you're more likely to face
viral infections that kind of contagious disease.
Out of the group, you're more likely to
be wounded by a predator.
So you're more likely to develop an a
bacterial infection within that wound.
So the body when you feel socially excluded
it it pre that danger, and it starts
to release inflammatory molecules that act as the
First line of defense against bacterial infection. It
also releases blood clotting factor,
which can help the wounds to heal more
quickly and can prevent blood loss.
And Both of those were great short term
evolutionary
adaptations that would have helped us to survive
in those. Days or weeks after we had
been excluded.
But the problem is that what works in
the short term isn't always good for our
health in the long term,
So in modern society, if we are feeling
isolated and lonely, we don't feel that we've
got the support that we have.
We have low grade inflammation, and we have
elevated levels of blood clotting factor for, you
know, months or years.
And what we know is that both of
those when they become these chronic problems
are big risk factors for a whole host
of diseases
and that includes things like alzheimer's disease is
very closely linked to
inflammation. Same with type 2 diabetes.
And the blood clotting factor when your blood
is becoming thicker because it's causing more easily,
will that pre you to things like heart
attack or stroke.
So what served us an evolution isn't necessarily
serving as well now. And that's why this
intimate link between social connection and health exists.
So going back to your creative agency that
said that we don't have water cooler discussions
here, which strikes me as ridiculous.
But that was their belief system. Right. I'm
also kind of interpreting that they're,
another assumption that they made was that we
don't need work friendships. Yeah. What do you
say to people like this? Because there's a
lot of this right now? There's an an
idea that
in justifying
why I should work from home most of
the time or all of the time that
your argument that I need connection is false
because I'm getting it from my partner, or
I'm getting it from my spouse, or, I'm
getting it from my friends, my neighbors.
So I don't really needed it at work.
What do you say?
So I guess this creative agency I'm talking
about. That was way before
Covid before people started working from home, but
they still had this belief that it seemed
they saw social interaction at work as a
waste of time.
And I find that quite bizarre because I
mean, it's really missing a huge priority. It's
missing the point of what really
fuels creativity team at work. That's what the
research shows is that, you know, the more
the people
have those casual discussions. The more likely they
are to get an interesting perspective on their
their problems that might actually help them to
to find an original solution. And you can't
predict that. It's not like you can just
schedule 1 meeting a week to make the
magic happen. Actually, you need you need lots
of these conversations. You need to feel free
to be able to pick someone's brain when
you need the help. So I do think
that's a really
a really big error on their part to
have taken that attitude. And I think it's
very common attitude, but it's very misguided.
I'd say we'd promote working as well. I
think like there are lots of benefits of
remote working to employees, but then it's difficult
to recreate the same kind of
creative
collaborations that you would have had sitting in
the same room as another person. And maybe
some hybrid setups to
provide the best of both worlds. Like maybe
that can work. And, you know, we can...
Some uses of technology like video calls can
help to to mitigate some of the damage
that we have without physical presence, but I
do think
ultimately,
bumping into people day after day after day
is what's really needed to
to foster that social connection. And in terms
of the economic benefits, for social connection is
means that when people get on with their
colleagues, they're much more likely to stick in
a job. When people don't feel that social
connection, they're much more likely to and move
on and leave. And so that's a big
financial penalty that these companies are facing. If
they don't allow their their colleagues their employees
to have those conversations that can make you
feel that you're part of a community.
That's great. Obviously, this with working from home
environment that we're living in right now, may
be the future. It may be adjusted,
but there are certain camps working some that
say, it works perfectly, and we shouldn't be
concerned about connection. There are others that say
that we thrive when we're together,
But I think companies are struggling right now
to decide what's best because they're hearing so
many different opinions.
And
So it's hard to tell a whole company
that we're a in office company 5 days
a week and not get... So major rejection
from a lot of people that are you.
I just spent the last 4 years working
from home, and I did a pretty good
job. So I don't understand the restrictions,
what's your opinion in terms of where this
is gonna go? In other words, what are
we gonna learn based on the science that
you've already tapped into?
Where do you think companies would be optimally
informed in terms of how many days in
the office, how many days working from home?
What's your opinion as of right now?
So I have just seen some very recent
research that suggests that, I guess it's hybrid
working rather than fully remote working, but they
don't see a huge
loss in productivity, and they do see that
employees are much more likely to stick in
their job if they do have that flexibility,
And it does have an advantage as well
for gender equality in the workplace because what
they found was naturally, there a better retention
of female staff when
there's an option of flexibility.
So I think we have to keep all
of that in mind. But I think the
issue is like, how are you then ensuring
and encouraging that people is still having the
conversations that will help to improve people's well
being and their creativity
in other ways. And so still you know,
when I worked with the Bbc and afterwards,
you know, my boss was really good actually,
even when we had to work remotely for
setting up different.
Different initiatives to just encourage socializing
amongst colleagues even if you couldn't do it
face to face. So, you know, 1 of
the activities that I really enjoyed was being
part of a book club that you could
join online or you could join it face
to face. But the fact is, it was
a way for people to feel connected to
each other, not purely in the in their
data activities, but also in, you know, having
this kind of project that was unrelated to
work. So I think that kind of initiative
can be really helpful.
You know, providing the technological tools for people
to be able to have good discussions and
providing guidelines for how to do that. There
are certain things practices that are much better
than others for maintaining
connection during creative projects. For example,
it can be good to schedule
brainstorming
sessions. So their runs on board rather than
having that trickle of emails as people are...
You know, each feeding in their their idea
remotely. Actually it's much better to say we'll
have a slack discussion
on this for the next hour or 2,
where we're all gonna be contributing together because
what you want is that burst of of
information exchange that's what's really conducive to better
the collective decision making. Whereas if you just
have a kind of slow stream of these
emails, some of them getting ignored, people aren't
really engaging so closely
with the task at hand. So I think
there's lots that can be done. It does
depend on the particular
situation of the company of the particular projects.
But, yeah, I think we do have to
look for a new way of working that
prioritizes
connection
even if we can't all be in the
same argument at the same time as we
were previously. So 2 questions, one's a statement
and the others is the question. The question
is do you have a recommended number of
days in the office where people can bump
into people as you suggested?
And the other is is just the suggestion
that a book club appeal to you. But
there could be other clubs, you know, other
themes or other focuses,
you know, gardening
discussions and, you know, you name it. Right?
So it doesn't necessarily have to be a
book club, which will attract a certain group.
But if organizations create...
Different kinds of online clubs to bring people
together if they're spending a lot of time
working remotely, that could work just as effectively.
Yeah. Yep. That's exactly it. I mean, the
book club was just 1 that did seem
to work quite well with a group of
journalists, but, you know, there's plenty of other
options. That's you know, it could be discussing
like, what spots are happening at at moment.
Mh. Or but it's just giving people the
option. I'll letting them know that it's something
that the company,
or organization values that it actually wants you
to have those conversations as opposed to an
institution like that creative agency that I spoke
about or her where it was actively
discouraged.
And to return to your first question about
the optimum
number of days
I mean, I think that will depend on
the company.
I think most companies in the Uk, are
essentially settling on 2 days minimum.
You know, 3 days optimal 4 days is
kind of the maximum of what people are
willing to accept it seems.
Know, and it can depend on the employee's
circumstances
as well. But I think you do want
some
chunk of time, you know, 2 days, I
think is a good amount where you can
get your fit, you of the connection, but
also then have the other benefits that come
from remote working
in terms of, you know, not having the
long commute for lots of people having more
time with your family
more time focus on your well being in
other ways. Like, like working out as instead
of spending all your time in the car
or in the train?
I really appreciate the fact that you're not
stride saying it has to be 1 way
or the other
and as we're gonna dig into this, that
your book is really about.
Here's how we do it? Like, in the
new world that we're living in, here's how
you can create
connection in ways that we've never thought of
before or needed before.
And so I wanna dig into that. So
I'm particularly interested and how your research can
be used to elevate
leadership effectiveness
of vis vis building deeper connection with people.
But do you wanna strike out like, and
give us an overview of, you know, the
practical side of connection before I get into
some of my more detailed questions.
Yeah. Sure. So I guess, like, I think
all of my kind of book is divided
into these 13 laws of connection. And I
think... All of them are relevant for people
in leadership roles because even if they've always
applied to some of those themselves. It can
still be useful, to know what behavior you
should be encouraging in others. And I'll give
1 example.
Essentially, we know that people
underestimate their capacity for connection They underestimate have
positively other people will respond to them. And
then that can prevent them from having the
useful creative
conversations that would... Enhance their work, but also
bring them greater happiness in their personal lives.
And 1, you know, my favorite example of
this really and the 1 that
inspired me to dig deeper and to to
look through all of this scientific research on
this was a phenomenon called the liking gap.
And put simply, this is the fact that
people
when you meet someone for the first or
second time. You can both have a really
good
conversation in that moment.
But then when you go away, you both
start to underestimate how the other person felt
about you. So each person is assuming that
they liked the other person
more than the other person liked them. And
there are lots of reasons for that, but...
Seems that people really get very caught up
in
some of those slight moments of awkward in
a conversation, they might kind of replay a
faux pas that they said or a mistake,
a moment where the other person was distracted
for the idea that that person was bored
And so they go away feeling quite uncertain
they have a lot of doubts about how
authentic in them and meaningful their sense of
connection really was in that conversation. That's not
good for well being, but more important it's
a major discourage to building on that connection
and having more.
Discussions,
conversations,
collaborations in the future.
So
I think that's really important for people to
bear in mind personally by being aware of
phenomenon
like the liking gap, we can just make
sure that actually we account for this. So
even if you you do have those doubts,
you're still just make the effort to actually
reach out. Can I ask you, don't lose
your chain of thought, but I was blown
away by that that in reading your book
Yeah? And I remember thinking,
I've had conversations with people were on like,
oh, man, did I blow that? Like, that
didn't go well. Right. And then I hear
later... Oh, they really enjoyed meeting you in
the... And, like, how is that possible that
I could have such a...
A different view of how an interaction went.
And, by the way, there are times where
it's the opposite too. Right? In other words,
Right. Right. We think it went really well
and it didn't.
So what's the explanation? Why are we also
self doubting? Yeah. I mean, so, absolutely. It
could go in the other direction like you
say. But in general, that just doesn't happen
as much as we fear. Like it's much
more likely
on average to go well than it was,
to have gone badly. So, yeah, our
expectations are just needlessly
pessimistic
in most cases
you know, is a real shame. I think
there is a benefit in being a little
bit cautious
because you don't want to take people for
granted. You know, we have... To be sensitive
to other people.
The repairs, like breaks in the
conversation at, you know, we all do make
some
some mistakes occasionally, that could
disrupt the sense of connection, and we we
do have to be aware of that fact.
But I think we just over compensate for
this. That's the real problem is that we're
just too negative. We could afford to be
more confident less doubtful, but we we just
don't do that
I think 1 of the problems with this
is that we're maybe just not vocal enough
with each other to show exactly how much.
We liked each other. We're maybe a bit
too reserved with this,
and that creates this liking gap barrier. That
can prevent? Is that a British thing or
a human thing? It's a human thing. I
mean, this research was performed in the Us
that. So I can I can imagine it
would be more pronounced in the Uk, But
I imagine it is a universal
human universal, actually because there are similar psychological
phenomena that I discussed in the book that
have been tested say
China in the Us and in Europe and
people aren't pretty similarly? So I'm not saying
we're necessarily
hardwired with this, but I think most of
our cultures
have encouraged us to be sensitive when we
sometimes take that too far were overly cautious.
So what's your prescription? Mh. Yeah. So I
think like, 1 of the best things we
can do to prevent the other person from
feeling the liking gap and encouraging them to
have more confidence is just to end our
conversations by, you know, only if it's honest
and we're being authentic. But to tell them
how much we really appreciated them to really
make that
explicit rather than just expecting them to have...
Somehow worked it out from the general tone
of the conversation. But actually just just tell
them that to a swag some of their
doubts. That's wonderful. It's actually really wonderful advice
because it makes people feel safe and supported
and and encouraged to wanna continue the relationship.
So you can actually... Steer the relationship in
a very positive way. And so that's the
last thing. You know, the rec effect is
their a last thing to remembering about the
interaction was how kind it was for you
to reinforce that you really enjoy being with
them, meeting them, getting to know them. That's
what you're saying. Yeah. Exactly. And, again, I'm
not saying that we should do this. If
we didn't go on with someone. I don't
think we should be dishonest about that. But
most of the time we do, and it's
just is much better like you say it
just verbal that to actually
not leave them to doubt that, but to
actually say it because it puts the
relationship immediately on a much better footing. Very
thoughtful. You could also send a follow up
message. I think that's also very beneficial. And
I guess that's my second piece of for
advice is putting knowing that we do have
the liking gap. Just try to account for
that. And to think well, I enjoyed the
conversation. I'd say I would like to meet
this person again, or I'd like to invite
them to collaborate with my team, and to
just be a bit brave about saying those
things.
We have to respect people's boundaries and not
everyone you meet is gonna want to be
your best friend or your closest collaborators. So
respect to those boundaries. But when you make
these tact offers to continue and build on
that and rapport. But a bit brave, just
recognize that they probably did like you as
much as you liked them and and by
giving them the opportunity to have further
conversations.
You're just allowing what might have been the
seed of of a good relationship to really
blossom them and grow into into something that
could be potentially a lifelong friendship. Thank you.
Transitioning, I wanna ask you why do you
advise workplace leaders to become masters of connection?
Mh Well, I think partly this is because
we know that... With many psychological
qualities,
people naturally mimic and imitate the people around
them, and especially those that they look up
to. We know this, for example, when our
leader is humble and is more willing to
acknowledge their errors,
the people who are following them. End up
being much more humble too. So, you know,
there's a kind of element of social contagion
here, and I think it should come from
the person
who's
leading the
organization to do that.
They should be encouraging it in the the
team of executives beneath them as well,
and the reasons are that it's beneficial to
everyone. I mean, it's beneficial for financially, but
it's also beneficial just for the...
The overall well being the culture of the
company.
So let me parse this a little bit
more with greater definition, I suppose.
You know, 1 of the things that you
say in the book that I totally agree
with is that
the broader
your network,
the greater access you're having to diverse thought,
and that that's broadening your view of the
world, which obviously is gonna enhance the decision
making. You you put into play every every
everyday.
And there's the other aspect of this, which
is that as a leader,
I have a responsibility
to foster connection knowing how it aids and
supports well being.
So
maybe this is the time to say,
tell us about the different ways that
your 13 principles for building a, building connection.
But let me just ask you to clarify
those first 2 points, and then we'll go
from there.
Yeah. I mean, you've got exactly right. That's
exactly how I see it. It is a
leader's responsibility to ensure the well being.
Of the people within their workforce. And we
know that when people have better social connection,
they're less likely
to suffer from emotional like exhaustion or burnout.
You know, it's really serious problems that can
completely derail someone's career.
So from a moral perspective, I think, absolutely,
there's imperative to to encourage connection in an
organization.
And then, you know, like you say, it
comes with those benefits for decision making for
creativity.
It's really...
You know, I feel like...
There's so many measures that you can take
to improve a company. We know that company
culture, corporate culture can really have a huge
impact on the overall. The long term health
of an
organization.
Social connection is just so fundamental to all
of that. I think if you're neglecting it,
your... You're not really thinking about the long
term benefits to your employees or to your
to your overall corporate goal. So you have
13 principles for building drugs. Social ties. And
we don't have time to go through all
of them, but you could be very selective,
David in saying,
these social 345,
whichever 1 you wanna call out are the
most relevant in the workplace context that you're
just describing,
So I'll just ask you to select which
ones you think you'd like to emphasize
and tell us a little bit about them.
Okay. Yeah. That's quite a few that. I
think car relevant.
The first I think is showing
appreciation. I mean, I think this should be
pretty obvious. Right. You tell people when you're
grateful for the work they've done. You complement
them for the things they're doing well.
The research shows that despite knowing that we
should be doing that. We don't do it
nearly enough. We actually
bite back a lot of the positive things
that we're thinking about other people. And it's
a great shame.
There are lots of reasons for that I
think it's actually worse than that that we
actually think we're doing it more than we
are. So, yeah, the research shows that when
you ask leaders, How often do you thank
people and appreciate them and recognize them, it's
a very high number. And then when you
go to employees and you say, you know,
almost the last time somebody thank you or
applauded you for your work. They're like, I
can't remember. And so. It... Right. It's even
worse than that. I'm sorry. I didn't mean
Yeah. No. Not all. I mean, that's totally
right. And I think 1 of the reasons
is that we we assume that people know.
We're quite ego centric thinkers. So we... Feel
appreciative of someone. We just assume that they
know that. We think that maybe we've shown
it in our nonverbal gestures, for example, or
we assume that they'll remember, you know, when
we complemented someone 3 months ago about their
work, we assume that they'll remember that rather
than thinking maybe we need to show that
appreciation again. So that's 1 of the big
problems is this ego centric thinking. And we
just don't recognize how much they're gonna actually
appreciate those words as well. We underestimate that.
And then we have some doubts about how
good we are it's actually
phrasing these compliments.
Strangely people
tend to get quite self conscious when they
have to praise people. They worry that they're
gonna come across
quite clumsy or that is gonna be a
bit kinda cringe worthy when they do say
something positive. They worry they'll be too gus.
The people receiving the compliments really aren't judging
the compliments on the way they're worded. What
they really
like Care about is just feeling
appreciated. They look at the sentiment,
not the particular wording behind what's being said.
So for all these reasons, we just don't
do it enough. It's a big loss because
without showing that appreciation to people,
they... Tend to feel much more negative about
their own work. We know that in
organizations,
I lack of appreciation. It's kind of it's
as bad as actually feeling that you're not
being adequately
rewarded financially for what you're doing. In general,
people,
often say they would rather have just more
verbal
appreciation than they would to receive a bonus
or a gift from their boss, for example.
Can I ask you about something you just
said, which is this
really stood out to me that managers have
a fear?
In giving
appreciation of coming across too gus. Mh. What's
our fear? In other words, I'm gonna say
that what I have found personally
is that, let's say that you work for
me, David, and I'm your editor.
And
I've just read your book for the first
time hasn't been published yet, and I need
to give you some feedback on it. And
I read it, and I'm gonna give you
my honest reaction. I thought, this is so
well done and so thought out,
And it's clear to me that there were
times when you were doing the research
that you had to pause and diagnose deeper
in order to get the information you got.
So you made a decision.
I'm not going to be superficial here and
give people pla dudes. I'm gonna give people
the science and then the practices that they
need to use tied to it. And I
just wanna compliment you and tell you that
came through loud and clear, and as your
editor,
I think you did remarkable work.
As opposed to
think this is a really good book, and
I think people are gonna like it. So
the gus part is actually what I think
people respond to. It's like, wow.
Thank you so much for saying that. That's
the impact. If I just say he did
a good book here, and I think this
is gonna sell well. It accomplishes the same
thing on 1 level, but on the gus
level, it doesn't have the impact that that
we're afraid of having. Yep. So tell me
about that. What have you learned? Yeah. I
mean, the such shows people don't recognize
that fact. I mean,
again, I think it's part of this kind
of general caution and pessimism that we have
about our own social potential. That we tend
to just not say enough often.
And that is especially true with giving compliments
or showing gratitude is also true in our
first situations, which I'll come to in a
minute like when we give bad feedback as
well, but we just tend to hold back.
We we stick a very surface
level approach to our interactions rather than just
going deeper.
And what you say is absolutely true about
compliments is that the The research shows any
compliment or any thank you. However, brief is
valued,
but the problem is that often people just
don't give enough.
Information. And what's really predictive of a a
good relationship is when you show that you're
very responsive
by which I mean, you show all the
qualities that you just showed, where you pick
out very precise particular things that you appreciated,
So you avoid the general and you actually
look at the details. That's what really makes
people feel that they've been seen and heard.
And recognized, and we don't do that enough.
So that's 1 of my laws of connection
is just to do that more when we
when we feel positively
towards someone to be explicit about that and
to go into more detail and what particular
qualities
we like.
That's wonderful. What's another? K. And another 1
is you might think it's the opposite of
this is actually very much a similar principle
just the other side of a coin,
and that is
we should be more honest with people even
when we're bringing bad news or negative feedback.
We underestimate the how much people really want
to hear our honest opinion. And so we
engage in those
pros socialize lives or, you know, how they're
normally
referred to as white lies. And we've been
quit doing this kind of act that we're
saving people's feelings, but actually
we're hurting them in the long run because
we're preventing their growth.
And people really want to be able to
grow and improve. That's passes of something called
self determination theory in psychology,
which really proposes that for most people,
learning and growth and development is a fundamental,
intrinsic, human
motivation. But we just neglect that often when
we're giving
bad feedback to someone. Now you can be
tact in how you give feedback. You know,
the worst kind of bad feedback is actually
to be over general, to just say that's
absolutely awful for work. Without explaining why it
was bad, what could be improved, the steps
that someone could go through to improve their
work. So be very, very
precise of people will appreciate the feedback much
more. In general, people know when they're being
lied to. And it feels quite offensive quite
insulting. So it's not gonna enhance your connection.
It's not gonna improve your relationship and it's
just depriving the other person of their chance
to develop.
So what's our hesitation, we're feeling that we're
gonna hurt their feelings or
in other words, if in the same context,
I'm reading your book. And I give you
that positive feedback and then I said, 1
thing that I would like to suggest that
you do in your book is to be
a little bit more clear about XYZ.
Mh.
So you're open to that. Like, you wanna
make your book better, and I didn't hurt
your feelings by doing that. Right? So what's
our resistance? Giving feedback like that or are
you saying that it's much more critical feedback
that we're reluctant to give? Yeah. I mean,
some people I think are to pretty reluctant
even to give such mild feedback as the
kind you just described. But, you know, sometimes
you'd you have to deliver worst news,
and I think it's in those situations, you
know, when you're telling someone, their book has
to be
substantially
rewritten. For example. Now what a lot of
people do is they won't exactly
verbal that entirely. They'll just be very vague,
in the feedback that they give, which isn't
very helpful.
Know, I've had this in my journalist career
where someone is kind of pulling their punches
too much see you in you get the
impression that they
maybe don't like it as much as you
would hoped, but they don't really tell you
what specifically could be...
Needs to be changed or improved. And so
you might try to take on board some
of their comments, but it's just very difficult
to do so when they are kind of
couch the criticism
in these terms. It's much better for them
to just be much more precise and
even if that is making the criticism more,
it's explicit and potentially more hurtful. In the
long run, people would rather hear that than
be told a half truth that then leads
them to produce something that is un in
the long term. I'll share what this is
at some point. But I wrote something recently.
And I gave it to 2 different people,
people that, like, have been very much involved
in my world and my life and
have, you know, seen my writing over the
years and have given me very good feedback
that I've used.
And so I gave them both the same
document
And the first person said, and this was
the first draft. So the first person said,
this isn't up to your standards.
This is not as good as you needed
to be. Mh. And was like, clear on,
you need to make it more. Personal, you
need to include more information about your own
assessment, it can't just be tied to the
research link, that was the feedback. Personal So
it kind of was, like, wow. Like, okay.
I'm not living up to my own standards.
So then I gave it to another person,
And the feedback was essentially the same, David
where he said,
this could be better if you make it
more personal, you know, less leveraging the research.
And here are ways that I think you
could make this great.
And I think anybody listening to this is
probably going to respond by thinking
that guy gave me the feedback that's gonna
be the most helpful.
Because what he implied was. It's not good
yet, but here's how we make it great.
Yeah. And my my, I can make this
great. Like, wow. Like, okay. How.
So, you know, I'm having to go back
and rewrite the whole thing. Really, But I'm
I'm rewriting it with guidance that's based on
what I've already done and where I need
to go. So I was completely,
grateful for that kind of feedback, but the
difference was, 1 left me feeling like, oh,
man. Like, this is really not very good.
And another person gave me identical feedback in
terms of what to do, but framed it
in a way of, hey, let me give
you some guidance on how you can make
this thing great.
Yeah. I mean I think that's the crucial
difference. And that's why just by being totally
honest with people.
It doesn't mean that you have to be
tact.
I think when you can frame the feedback
constructively to really emphasize
how it's gonna help people to achieve their
goals, and how it's gonna help them to
grow and blend. That's when it's really
appreciated. But either of those scenarios in my
opinion,
would be better than someone who
shi away from giving the specific
feedback at all or any negative criticism and
and just told you, you know, quite bland,
oh, this is great. I think it's gonna
go down well with readers. And yet, that
happens too often. That's what the research shows
is that people
really do shy away from telling those home
truths that need to be heard. Well, you've
made that point really clear, and I appreciate
it. Is there a third? Or even a
fourth that you wanna add to the list
here because these are very powerful. The way
you've dissect them is really
you're adding nuance that I've never heard before.
So I appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah. There's
a couple. I mean, 1 is again it's
related to Honesty Steve. But specifically how we
talk about our...
Failures and vulnerabilities.
And what the research shows on this phenomenon,
which is called the beautiful mess effect
S. Is the fact that people are just
very
shy of revealing any cracks in this polished
for near that they might have constructed
It's like we have this kind of messy
life behind us, but we put up this
v in front of it, and we don't
want to show that there might be cracks
in the v or to allow people to
see
what's behind that. And that's especially true I
believe it's so very reluctant to to up
to their anxieties
to failures in their past to errors of
judgment. And now what the research shows is
that people
perceive
those vulnerabilities
much better than we expect
we believe that they'll see it as a
sign of weakness, and they'll find it alien
and judge us harshly,
but what actually occurs is that people,
see you as being brave and more honest,
and they respond really well to those 2
things. When you're looking
relationships in general, honesty and authenticity.
That's so hugely important. They the foundation of
any good social bond.
And then for a leader actually being seen
as being strong and brave. That's an added
bonus. And that's what it occurs. Is true
in all areas of life, but there have
been
studies that specifically looked at leaders and how
how their followers is responded when they admitted
to anxieties like being scared of public speaking
or being scared of are flying. And what
they found was that those
disclosures actually increased their followers loyalty
to them. So rather than
seeing this person is being weak. That actually
saw this person is having more merit as
being worth more of their time and dedication.
You know, it's interesting because it's in the
conversation, you pointed out that
we have this
incorrect fear the people we meet didn't like
us or didn't like us as well. We
wanted them to, which wasn't true. We have
a fear of going overboard our
appreciation When in fact, being more generous and
being more descriptive is more powerful and impactful.
Now you're saying that we have a fear
of showing people who we really are
and that we think we have to put
up, you know, some sort of power driven
facade in order for people to take us
seriously and yet
it's just the opposite. The more vulnerable we
can be. And that's not just saying, oh,
I blew it again, you know, made another
error it's not,
you know,
I'm a really bad leader. It's not bad.
It's just like, hey, I don't know everything,
and I'm gonna have to figure this out.
Maybe you can help me, You know, I'm
gonna make some mistakes along the way. People
really appreciate that. Yeah. Exactly.
And what it does is a consequence is
it also means that the
the alpha members of staff are gonna be
happier to be honest about their own errors
of judgment all their own anxieties. So they're
gonna be more willing ask for help when
they need it rather than struggling alone, And
they're more likely to make better decisions because
a lot of the worst
corporate disasters that we've seen in America, things
like the deep water horizon,
oil style, for example, a lot of those
kinds of big catastrophes occur because people are
trying to cover up their errors they're not
willing to be open about the mistakes they've
made. And so if you have a leader
who's willing to be open in this way,
it just creates a, a more open culture
generally, and that tends to produce better decision
making. I mean, you're describing psychological and emotional
safety aren't you? Yeah. Exactly. It is and,
you know,
embracing the beautiful mass effect is 1 way
encouraging
psychological safety.
And the important thing there is you can
encourage the psychological safety
without any cost to your own reputation, that
you're only enhancing your own reputation by doing
that. Great.
I wanna change gears here before you go,
I have a question unrelated to your book,
and then I'm gonna give you an opportunity
to sort of summarize anything that you'd like
for our audience to hear. You just happened
to have an article in the Wall Street
Journal just this week.
And
I thought it was really kind of fascinating.
So I wanna talk about that. You refute
this idea that toot one's own horn, meaning,
You know, playing up one's accomplishments to letting
people know what you're up to is an
un unrealized move. And what I was so
pleased about in reading this,
was that I did... I used to just
believe that I don't have to be telling
people what I'm doing. Let people judge me
on what I accomplished
And what I found is that in as
you grow in your career, and and particularly
if you're working in a larger organization.
That there are people that have... They're not
really paying close enough attention to what you're
doing to really know unless you do to
your own horn. So
tell us a little bit about what the
research shows and also some guidance on how
to do some successful bragging. Yeah. I mean,
I'm really glad that you brought this up
because it's actually my eighth floor, and I
think it
relates very closely to what we've spoken about,
you know, all of what we've spoken about.
And the fact is we're just we benefit
from being more open whether that is
about just being honest in general, giving negative
feedback, showing
appreciation.
Talking about our vulnerabilities,
but also we benefit from being open about
our successes
much more than we expect. And again, this
is a psychological barrier
that's caused by an un compounded fear, and
that is that people
will feel alienate by our success that they'll
resent it that they'll feel
malicious envy mv and that will be punished
as a result. And the research
really shows those fears are un unfairly that
it doesn't happen this way, And actually, what
really damages the relationship is when you hide
your success because that scene has being very
pate
and condescending to, to hide your access to
someone suggest you don't hold them in very
high esteem because you kind of think, well,
their success hasn't matched jaws, so they're gonna
they're gonna crumble or you're treating them as
if there's some kind of, you know, spoil
Brat child is gonna have a tantrum when
they don't win every board game. So people
pretty much find it very expensive when they
find there's someone that they know even someone
that they know Vaguely has hidden a success
from them. So It's just a big no
no and that absolutely applies in the office
as well. And so we should be more
open, but again, like you said, we don't
want tutor to own horn. At every opportunity
too loudly.
And so there are some rules for effective
bragging. And they are number 1, just be
honest about what you've achieved. If you start
exaggerating what you've achieved. That's when people do
tend to judge you very negatively because that
looks manipulative.
Who reduces the perceptions of since,
which is destroying that foundation of any relationship,
which is that you're telling the truth
The second rule is to avoid social comparison.
Don't try to drag other people into your
brag to make you
look even better. So if you're talking about
promotion,
sales performance,
you know, personal best at the gym even,
don't start talking about other people and how
you compared to them because it suggest that
you're drawing up this kind of mental hierarchy.
And that is very off putting because even
if you're not drawing the the listener
specifically
into that bag,
There's always left open the possibility
that if you are so concerned about hierarchy
and status that you're judging them negatively to
in some other way.
Very off putting, it's not likely to build
a good relationship. And finally, just be open
about the challenges that you faced on the
way. To your success. Only if it's appropriate.
Sometimes we do just have a wonderful stroke
of good luck offerings just go our way.
We don't have to make up challenges to
please offer people. But if you have faced
disappointment from failures
or just some hurdles that you overcame creatively,
it's just worth mentioning that people
like to know that if there's been a
bumpy rocky road to success because that ultimately
makes what you say more inspiring.
It shows the person that you that if
you've achieved it well they might be able
to achieve what you've you've managed as well.
There was a study that looked specifically at
entrepreneurs
who were making
pitches to receive funding who spoke about the
previous track record.
Entrepreneurs who brag about their successes, but also
spoke a bit about the challenges. They were
just perceived much better than those who only
spoke about the success without talking about the
journey that got them to where they were.
I mean, I think we do have a
fantasy that other people's successes are easier than
our own Right? So Right. When somebody's excel
and they're like, yeah. I failed 3 times.
You're like, oh, like, oh, son and I.
You know? So, yeah. Think that's why that
goes better with the Vc group because that
they know that they're investing in a lot
of businesses that don't make it and it'd
be better to have a leader that was
honest about that than to say everything I've
touched is gone to gold. It's like, oh,
yeah,
that's not who we wanna go with. Hey,
David. We're gonna stop here for a moment
and move into what we call the heartbeat
round. I think I've got 12 or 13
questions,
more personal in nature that I wanna ask
you, and I'd like to have you answer
these more instinctively,
in a heartbeat in other words. Are you
up for that? Absolutely. Alright. Great.
Something you specifically learned in the process of
writing your book on connection.
Yeah. I mean, the thing that I learned
really was to practice why I preach suffered
from
social anxiety in the past and learning about
all of these laws of connections just really
opened me out and help me to just
feel much more confident in my own interactions,
which helped personally and professionally.
Great. That's piece of advice you've ever been
given.
This cassandra writing but I think it applies
to any skill, and it's just to recognize
when you're learning something new, it's a journey,
and you can't always produce your best result,
but you have to just look at the
kind of mean of your results so far
and where you're going in the future. So
just try to make sure that on average,
your performance is a little bit better than
it was previously.
What I found with that was that it
helped to take away a lot of the
performance anxiety I had, when I I was
starting out journalists trying to write, you know,
each time I wanted to write my best
piece ever, and that just isn't statistically
possible to do. But what you can do
is to try to look at the the
long time journey there and to
to just make sure that you're making incremental
process,
2 steps forward for every 1 step back.
I like the word journey.
The healthy perspective? What's the worst piece of
advice you've ever break given.
Okay. That was right when I was an
intern at new scientist, which is and magazine
in the Uk.
My editor told me to leave behind neuroscience
and psychology and told me to focus on
technology.
And our technology just wasn't a subject that
especially fascinated me the human mind was. And
so I ignored his advice
I followed my instincts financially, I've never looked
back. It's really... Is where my passion is.
Well the
cultural value every team should have.
Humility without a doubt.
1 call you consider most essential to your
personal success. Curiosity,
I think it's so hugely important for any
writer. But fundamentally, I think it's important for
all kinds of careers because when we're curious
we're more likely to make better decisions.
Subject you believe all managers would be wise
to bone up on.
Oh my. Yeah. That's a difficult 1.
I think cognitive bias, which I know lots
of managers are burning up on, but I
think you can ever be too aware of
the, of your potential for error.
Quote that best captures your life philosophy.
Okay. This is from Shakespeare from hamlet,
and it is that there is neither a
good or bad, but thinking makes it so.
Mh. And there's a superficial interpretation of that,
which
you could take us the suggesting you should
have this poly
attitude and always just see the best in
everything. But the way I perceive it is
just
recognizing that there are multiple
interpretations of an event
even a very bad,
disappointing stressful event. And that if you can
manage to
to see some potential for growth in those
events, it's gonna make you much more psychologically
resilient. Brilliant.
1 thing you can't live without. I have
to say it's food, and I just couldn't
live about cheese. I'm afraid.
That's great. Life lesson you wish you'd weren't
earlier.
So I'm afraid it's gonna have to go
back to my book and it's
the existence of the liking gap. I just
think I would have formed
so many more friendships early on in my
life if I heard recognize recognized that people
probably liked me as much as I like
them. And so I hadn't turned down
invitations to parties for example imagining that I
was only invited down to politeness, but I
had really just followed in the sense that
actually, you know, people appreciated my company.
What should be required reading for every human
alive?
I apart for my foot obviously.
You're not the first way Who tried that.
A tough 1.
I mean, I read Anna Karen last year,
and I have to say, I think it's
the most profound piece of interest
hybrid bread, and it's so rich. I think
especially on the topic of, of,
relationships, and there's many different flavors of relationships
that we have. So, yeah. I'm gonna go
to full story. That's great. And very few
people have ever given me fiction. So that's
interesting that Prediction about the future, you're pretty
certain will come true.
I think there's, like, so little doubt the
Ai is gonna completely disrupt.
So many industries, including my own, but I
don't think we can predict exactly what will
happen, but we have to be prepared to
be flexible.
Honestly, these were very provocative answers and very
thoughtful. So thank you for going through that
with me. No I I really enjoyed it.
Yeah. Thanks for the questions.
As I said, before we go here, David,
what's single most actionable and specific piece of
advice that you can give us all...
For the purpose of cultivating and sustaining greater
connection in our lives
and in the lives of the people that
we manage.
So I think like the common theme and
all of this is just
that we we do have the psychological barriers
that
often based on these un unwanted fears, and
it's just to be willing to push yourself
out of your comfort zone a little bit
and to to recognize that you can afford
to be
brave in your interactions. You can afford to
be more open. You can afford to be
more gus
you might feel that you're exposing yourself that
you're making yourself vulnerable with all of this.
But what the research shows that's this the
relationships really thrive on that. It's only by
engaging in self disclosure that you can build
a meaningful
bond with another person,
and it might feel a little bit scary
to do so, but you're gonna benefit so
much from that process. And the more you
do it, the more comfortable you'll feel with
this. There's another big take home message of
this research is that practicing our social skills
is the only way to build them. If
they're like a muscle that can atrophy quite
easily
with use, but you can build that social
confidence
by just putting them into practice every day.
And so we can apply that to ourselves,
we can also just look to provide those
opportunities for the people around us the people
that we're mentoring the people that we're managing
or leading. Just bear in mind it's gonna
create a better community within an organization where
people feel more belonging and it's gonna improve
the culture. You could not have done a
better job in this podcast, David. So thank
you very much in terms of what I
was hoping what we'd accomplish here. I'm gus.
I'm really, really happy. So it's fascinating. And
it's enlighten, and it's timely.
So on behalf of myself and my audience.
Thank you so very much for joining me.
I'm really am very grateful.
Thank you. I'm really grateful for having being
invited. Well, best to you, sir, Thank you.
Nice meeting you. Bye bye. You too. Can
you take care out. Bye?
Before Go, I wanna quickly mention that I
just had a new article published in fast
company magazine title. Leaders don't really care about
employee engagement here's why.
I posted this on Linkedin and you can
find it on my website or you can
also Google it. The big picture is that
employee engagement as a metric has never really
influenced the positive change in management behavior.
And we've been in for well over a
decade.
But new research proves. It's time we stop
concerning ourselves with engagement because there's another far
more effective and simple measure that will indeed
force an elevation and workplace leadership behavior.
Find out what it is when you read
the peace. Again, it's called leaders don't really
care about employee engagement with here's why. I
wanna thank my exceptional team miss Ken Boy,
Carrie Finn, Rad anna Boy, and my rather
talented an engineer and producer, mister Eric Oz,
who makes every show. Sounds so wonderful.
And I also wanna thank all the employees
and managers at Chevron. And finally, I leave
you with my 2 consistent reminders
when you leave from the heart, your people
will follow
and love your people. This is Mark Crowley.
Thanking you so much for listening, and I'm
signing off for now.