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Hello. I'm Rhonda Morris, vice president and Chief

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human Resources officer at Chevron.

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Chevron is proud to sponsor the lead from

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the heart podcast.

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Today, my colleague, Jose rosetta Jones,

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our chief diversity and inclusion officer

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will share a brief story about a leader

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whose simple and kind act had a long

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lasting influence on her career and how she

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needs others.

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Thank you, Rhonda,

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This summer before my senior year in college,

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I was an environmental engineer intern at a

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petrochemical company when I first met Berkeley C.

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Affectionately known as dock.

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Doc was a former of Virginia state police

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officer and Us navy veteran who served in

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the Korean war,

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and was now a member of the safety

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team.

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He had many safety related responsibilities,

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including leading our safety meetings,

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I noticed early on that doc was a

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caring empathetic person, which were qualities that were

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sometimes hard to find. And a male dominated

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petrochemical plant in the nineties.

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And as the summer progress, I observed that

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doc did something that I remembered to this

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day

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He told

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everyone around him that he loved them.

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He told his peers. He told visitors to

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the site. He told his boss. His boss's

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boss, the plant manager,

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everyone.

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He told us that he wanted us to

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be safe and that he loved us.

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Doc knew that we were engaged in a

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high risk business, and he wanted us to

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know that we mattered to at least 1

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person,

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him.

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Doc demonstrated

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empathy long before empathy was a hot topic.

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And quite frankly, people in the workplace,

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especially at an industrial site, We're not openly

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telling their colleagues that they loved him. But

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for doc, it worked like many people after

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interacting with doc, I left with a smile

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and a lighter disposition.

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Doc passed many years ago, but his legacy

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of leadership with a heart was ahead of

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its time.

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His leadership lesson on showing care and empathy

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at work is now so important in helping

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people reach their full potential.

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Thank you, Doc. You taught me well.

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And now onto the show.

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Hello everyone. This is Mark Crowley, and you're

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listening to the lead from the hard podcast.

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You ever received an email and reacted angrily

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because you perceived an aggressive tone from the

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center.

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Have you ever assumed a friend was up.

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Out with you because they didn't invite you

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to an event.

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Have you ever left a meeting convinced that

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everyone had agreed with your proposal because they

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were nodding their heads when you were speaking,

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I'm hoping you said yes to some or

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all of these scenarios and quickly recall how

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badly your assumptions worked out.

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You later discovered the person sending the email,

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meant you know will will at all. The

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friend didn't invite you only because they didn't

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think you'd be interested.

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And by not confirming that you had your

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teams and bosses green light in the meeting,

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you went and took an action you shouldn't

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have and then had to go unwind it.

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The sad truth is that we get souls

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into painful predicament like this because we tend

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to believe we're really good at making act

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your inferences

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about what other people are thinking and feeling.

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But here's the truth.

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Research proves our success in reading other people,

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is actually no better than a coin flip.

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My guest today is Jeff Wet, and he

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brings an invaluable remedy.

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He urges us to stop making assumptions

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and ask people directly what they're thinking and

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feeling.

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In his new book as Tap into the

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hidden wisdom of people around you for unexpected

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breakthroughs and leadership in life. A book by

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the way that's been highly praised by Harvard

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Business school professor Amy Evans. In.

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Jeff offers a rather effective approach at finding

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out what other people really think.

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And using his methodologies will ensure we go

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on to make smarter decisions and maintain far

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healthier

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relationships.

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You're getting hear, Jeff introduce 5 practices that

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can lead you to knowing what other people

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or truly thinking feeling and knowing.

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And just so that you're immediately grounded in

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the conversation, I thought I would just quickly

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mention them here. The first 1 is choose

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curiosity.

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How can we increase our authentic interest in

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learning from others?

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Make it safe is number 2. How can

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we make it comfortable easy and appealing for

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others to share with us. Number 3, pose

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quality questions.

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How may I ask questions the best happen

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to the experiences perspectives and wisdom in those

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around us?

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4 is listen to learn.

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How can we maximize the chances that will

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hear what others have to say? And finally,

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is reflect in return. How do we process

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at all? How do we process what we

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heard in ways to create here actionable insights

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and encourage ongoing learning.

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So the skills and messages of ask,

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I believe could not be any time layer.

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It's almost as if we've all just stopped

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listening 1 another and have begun making choices

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and decisions, not based upon reality, but By

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what we assumed to be true instead.

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So as you're about to hear, asking people

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to tell you what's going on with them

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is much more nuanced and sophisticated in action.

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But Jeff has a brilliant understanding of the

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process and is here to thoughtfully explain it

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to all of us,

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And with that, let me welcome him to

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the podcast.

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Welcome Jeff Wet.

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Thank you so much for having me. It's

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great to be with you. Well, thank you

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for coming.

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Let's hit this right out of the gate

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here this research that you signed in your

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book that says that people consistently overestimate their

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ability to make accurate inferences.

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About what other people are feeling and thinking

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in a given moment. And so much though

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that our inferences, I love this are generally

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no better than a coin flip, Most of

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us probably would never believe that until they

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heard it here or read in your book.

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So to get us started, I have 2

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questions for you. Why do we believe we're

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omniscient to begin with? Where do we think

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that power came from? And then tell us

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why making assumptions about people's thinking and what

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may be motivating their behavior is a huge

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leadership miss. Yeah.

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Why we think we're omniscient. I think is

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a... It's probably tied back to a whole

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set of

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Biases that we have that you could put

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under the category of over confidence biases. You

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know, we see something we make meeting of

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it, and we as assume that our meaning

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is reality. Would forget that we're even making

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assumptions or inferences in the first place. But

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furthermore,

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there's conventional wisdom around how to read other

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people's minds, how to make inferences, things like

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pay attention to their nonverbal cues or put

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yourself in their shoes And this is obviously

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research findings on averages and so people might

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vary. But on average, neither of those strategies

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actually works. In fact, tsa agents who've been

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trained to read body language. Get it right

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less than 1 percent of the time. Did

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you say 1 percent of the time? Yes.

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Isn't that crazy?

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We assume that we can do things, and

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then we get these extra strategies and maybe

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we even get trained on it. But in

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reality, we're not inside other people. And so

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there's nothing that can help us to know

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other than, you know, 1 single strategy that

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has been shown reliably

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to let us know what's going on inside

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someone, of course, which is to ask them

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which we'll get to but it doesn't work

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on average. And to your question about what

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are people missing out on why is it

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such a huge miss. Basically, it's a huge

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miss because so often, we don't know. They

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don't tell us. Unless we ask them the

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right ways. And even I think if our

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intuition could say, hey, There's something off here,

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there's something going on or this person's

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not really kind of, you know, vi with

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me or reacting.

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That doesn't tell us how... Why? How come?

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What experience have they had in life? What's

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going on, what of a c that we

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don't see.

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I know you're not in charge at the

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Tsa,

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but

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I don't remember reading the statistic you just

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gave us that 1 percent of the time

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you... Tsa agents are able to read body

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language. Which means they're not able to read

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body language, which makes me wonder why a,

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we're teaching them to read body language.

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Pen b, why we're not teaching it to

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be more in?

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All good questions. All very good questions. So

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are you gonna make a recommendation to the

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Tsa that they change their behaviors or what?

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Well, I might send in the book and

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see what happened there. I think that's a

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good idea. Think about if you're online and

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you're up to no good. If you're being

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asked questions, that might be more revel than,

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you know, trying to observe people's behaviors. I'm

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just curious if you've given any thought to

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that. I mean, I think in general, that

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is the thing if we can actually ask

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people, and we can do it in the

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right ways meaning that in ways that enable

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them to feel safe enough. Actually share their

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truth with us, which might be hard in

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the Tsa case. We send a much greater

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chance of actually learning what's going on and

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where they're coming from. Alright. Well, that's where

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we're gonna go. So now that we know

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that making assumptions about all the people know

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think and feel is fraught with downside,

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tell us what proves to be the most

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effective way,

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of truly understanding what's going on with everyone

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around us. Yeah. This is essentially the heart

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of the question. I'm obsessed with and that

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this book is trying to tackle. Which is

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to basically say, how can we really tap

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into what others around us, no think, feel

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what their ideas are what their perspective is,

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what their experience are, And to get it,

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I brought together a set of practices

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that any 1 of them can be helpful,

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but when they are put together, and I

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call the methodology, the ask approach. When they're

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put together, they really give us the greatest

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chance of understanding and tapping into that. So

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would it be helpful if I just walk

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through at a high level? Sure.

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Okay. So it starts with curiosity.

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Because if we ask people questions,

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and we're not genuinely curious to know their

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answers. They're gonna see through that, it's gonna

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feel ina.

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But on the flip side,

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if we're coming from a place of truly

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being interested in the other person.

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Truly being wanting to connect. And by the

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way, the Latin root of the word curious

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is care. So this is a type of

270
00:09:51,932 --> 00:09:54,083
curiosity that is not about... You know, I

271
00:09:54,083 --> 00:09:56,087
wonder why trees grow the way they do

272
00:09:56,087 --> 00:09:57,519
or what's the history of Russia. This is

273
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what I call in the book connective curiosity.

274
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It's the kind of curiosity

275
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that connects us to other people. When we

276
00:10:04,054 --> 00:10:06,512
genuinely feel that, that radiates and energy that

277
00:10:06,512 --> 00:10:08,177
people can sense, and it leads other people

278
00:10:08,177 --> 00:10:09,683
to actually wanna share with us as well.

279
00:10:10,159 --> 00:10:12,102
And I talk about this... Kind of curiosity

280
00:10:12,159 --> 00:10:14,308
as something that we can choose. It's not

281
00:10:14,308 --> 00:10:15,899
just a trait that some people have or

282
00:10:15,899 --> 00:10:17,650
other people don't have or it's not about

283
00:10:17,650 --> 00:10:18,923
a state of mind that we're in, if

284
00:10:18,923 --> 00:10:20,196
you don't feel curious you can't do it.

285
00:10:20,435 --> 00:10:22,283
It's I believe it's it is something that's

286
00:10:22,283 --> 00:10:24,197
available to all of us all of the

287
00:10:24,197 --> 00:10:26,908
time. It's to make a decision that we're

288
00:10:26,908 --> 00:10:28,901
gonna center in our minds this question.

289
00:10:29,473 --> 00:10:31,300
What can I learn from this person? And

290
00:10:31,300 --> 00:10:32,650
when we center enter in our minds that

291
00:10:32,650 --> 00:10:34,159
question, it pushes it out all kinds of

292
00:10:34,159 --> 00:10:35,827
other things Like, why are they wrong? Or

293
00:10:35,827 --> 00:10:36,542
how do I get them to do what

294
00:10:36,621 --> 00:10:38,226
I wanna do or Why am I here

295
00:10:38,226 --> 00:10:39,420
or any on that stuff that we just

296
00:10:39,420 --> 00:10:40,454
get to what can we learn from that

297
00:10:40,454 --> 00:10:42,285
person. So we can talk more about curiosity?

298
00:10:42,444 --> 00:10:43,979
That's the first piece of it, which is

299
00:10:44,115 --> 00:10:45,013
choosing curiosity.

300
00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,025
Now, once I'm curious to learn from you,

301
00:10:48,581 --> 00:10:51,124
it doesn't really matter unless you feel safe

302
00:10:51,124 --> 00:10:52,156
to share with me your truth.

303
00:10:52,968 --> 00:10:54,802
Especially if it's a hard truth. And so

304
00:10:54,802 --> 00:10:57,274
number 2 of the ask approach is called

305
00:10:57,354 --> 00:10:58,949
Make it safe. And I know you've had

306
00:10:59,029 --> 00:11:01,182
Amy edmonds on this podcast multiple times this

307
00:11:01,182 --> 00:11:03,529
really draws, from some of her brilliant work

308
00:11:03,745 --> 00:11:06,531
around psychological safety and it applies it at

309
00:11:06,531 --> 00:11:09,316
the interpersonal level. It's really about lowering the

310
00:11:09,316 --> 00:11:12,037
barriers so that it's more comfortable from more

311
00:11:12,037 --> 00:11:13,548
easy, more appealing,

312
00:11:14,025 --> 00:11:16,013
more safe for people to actually let us

313
00:11:16,013 --> 00:11:18,081
know what's truly going on with them, especially

314
00:11:18,081 --> 00:11:19,115
if it's something that might be hard for

315
00:11:19,115 --> 00:11:19,513
us to hear.

316
00:11:20,244 --> 00:11:22,801
That's number 2. Then comes to questions. And

317
00:11:22,801 --> 00:11:24,479
so this is the heart of the ask

318
00:11:24,479 --> 00:11:26,715
approach, which is what I call pose quality

319
00:11:26,715 --> 00:11:27,115
questions.

320
00:11:27,529 --> 00:11:29,306
And I define a quality question

321
00:11:29,684 --> 00:11:32,318
very simply. As a question that promotes learning.

322
00:11:32,717 --> 00:11:34,553
It's a question that allows us to be

323
00:11:34,553 --> 00:11:35,990
in a conversation where we're actually,

324
00:11:36,565 --> 00:11:39,365
learning with and from the other person. I

325
00:11:39,365 --> 00:11:41,444
distinguish quality questions from crummy questions and we

326
00:11:41,444 --> 00:11:43,419
can talk about that. But I think that

327
00:11:43,620 --> 00:11:45,639
most of us have a relatively narrow

328
00:11:45,940 --> 00:11:48,019
repertoire of questions that we know how to

329
00:11:48,019 --> 00:11:50,679
ask. You kind of go to our standard

330
00:11:50,740 --> 00:11:51,459
go to questions.

331
00:11:51,955 --> 00:11:54,115
But really there is a whole range. There's

332
00:11:54,115 --> 00:11:56,195
a whole taxonomy of different kinds of questions

333
00:11:56,195 --> 00:11:57,875
that we can ask to really learn from

334
00:11:57,875 --> 00:11:59,794
other people. So that's what pose quality questions

335
00:11:59,794 --> 00:12:02,447
is. Once we ask the question, it all

336
00:12:02,447 --> 00:12:04,444
comes down to how well we listen. Do

337
00:12:04,444 --> 00:12:06,442
we listen for what people are really trying

338
00:12:06,442 --> 00:12:07,880
to communicate to us, and even what they're

339
00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,050
not saying, And are we listening not just

340
00:12:10,050 --> 00:12:12,204
for the content of what they say, but

341
00:12:12,204 --> 00:12:14,596
also for the emotion for what's coming from

342
00:12:14,596 --> 00:12:16,192
the heart. And are we able to connect

343
00:12:16,192 --> 00:12:18,918
with and take in information and signal at

344
00:12:18,918 --> 00:12:21,307
that level as well. That's listening to learn.

345
00:12:21,785 --> 00:12:23,696
And then finally, what do we do with

346
00:12:23,696 --> 00:12:25,210
what we heard? How do we process it

347
00:12:25,210 --> 00:12:26,723
and make meaning it? This is my favorite

348
00:12:26,723 --> 00:12:28,354
of all those steps I This is called

349
00:12:28,493 --> 00:12:30,891
reflect and reconnect. And this is really where

350
00:12:30,891 --> 00:12:31,870
we convert

351
00:12:32,249 --> 00:12:35,685
experience into insight and insight into action. And

352
00:12:35,685 --> 00:12:37,535
so is how do we sift with the

353
00:12:37,535 --> 00:12:39,849
go. We turn it over in a structured

354
00:12:39,849 --> 00:12:42,082
way in our minds, really get the most

355
00:12:42,082 --> 00:12:43,518
learning out of it, and then actually go

356
00:12:43,518 --> 00:12:44,873
back to the other person and say here's

357
00:12:44,873 --> 00:12:46,721
what I've learned. And thank you. Thank you

358
00:12:46,721 --> 00:12:48,229
for the time, the risk that you took,

359
00:12:48,388 --> 00:12:49,897
And did I learn the right things from

360
00:12:49,897 --> 00:12:52,597
you, and that's the reconnect part. So those

361
00:12:52,597 --> 00:12:55,076
are at a very high level. The 5

362
00:12:55,076 --> 00:12:56,830
steps or the 5 practices of the ask

363
00:12:56,830 --> 00:12:58,902
approach that would put together. I think really

364
00:12:58,902 --> 00:13:00,895
give us the greatest chance of learning from

365
00:13:00,895 --> 00:13:01,931
and with the people around us.

366
00:13:02,744 --> 00:13:05,242
So 1 of the things you said about

367
00:13:05,381 --> 00:13:08,099
connective curiosity is that it radiates and energy.

368
00:13:08,259 --> 00:13:10,736
Yeah. And I happen to agree with you

369
00:13:10,736 --> 00:13:12,115
in the sense that

370
00:13:12,589 --> 00:13:15,789
when you ask people for what's going on

371
00:13:15,789 --> 00:13:18,829
their minds and what they're feeling. It opens

372
00:13:18,829 --> 00:13:21,077
them up know? I mean, obviously, if you've

373
00:13:21,077 --> 00:13:22,829
never done this before and suddenly you're like,

374
00:13:22,908 --> 00:13:23,943
what are you thinking? What are you feeling?

375
00:13:24,979 --> 00:13:26,730
That's gonna feel oppressive to people and they're

376
00:13:26,730 --> 00:13:29,053
gonna shut down even more. Like. But if

377
00:13:29,053 --> 00:13:31,360
you have a great relationship with people, and

378
00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:32,950
you're taking the time to do that.

379
00:13:33,745 --> 00:13:36,926
Obviously, you're creating a feeling inside of people

380
00:13:36,926 --> 00:13:39,413
that they matter to you and that you're

381
00:13:39,413 --> 00:13:42,450
interested in them. And that's extremely powerful. Exactly.

382
00:13:42,690 --> 00:13:44,848
So 1 question I have is, like, when

383
00:13:44,848 --> 00:13:47,565
you're working with people and you're talking about

384
00:13:47,565 --> 00:13:47,725
this,

385
00:13:49,096 --> 00:13:50,633
what's your advice or

386
00:13:51,010 --> 00:13:51,808
overcoming the...

387
00:13:52,605 --> 00:13:54,918
This takes too long? I need to keep

388
00:13:54,918 --> 00:13:57,152
moving. I gotta get things done. I don't

389
00:13:57,152 --> 00:13:58,943
have the time to be curious

390
00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,814
and to get you to fully

391
00:14:02,431 --> 00:14:04,584
reveal what you're thinking and feeling. But I

392
00:14:04,584 --> 00:14:06,499
most especially don't have time to reflect on

393
00:14:06,499 --> 00:14:08,428
it, then come back to you tell I've

394
00:14:08,428 --> 00:14:10,024
reflected on it. So what do you say

395
00:14:10,024 --> 00:14:11,860
to that? Yeah. I have a mentor who

396
00:14:11,860 --> 00:14:13,935
talks about it as the pay now or

397
00:14:13,935 --> 00:14:15,850
pay later plan. You can decide which 1

398
00:14:15,850 --> 00:14:18,023
you want? You but it doesn't actually take

399
00:14:18,023 --> 00:14:20,520
that long to say, what might Be missing

400
00:14:20,660 --> 00:14:22,098
to think that or to ask that to

401
00:14:22,098 --> 00:14:23,616
the other person, but I'll tell you what

402
00:14:23,616 --> 00:14:25,707
does take a long time, which is, not

403
00:14:25,707 --> 00:14:27,775
catching a major flaw in your strategy that

404
00:14:27,775 --> 00:14:29,764
the people around the table from you actually

405
00:14:29,764 --> 00:14:31,275
new, but didn't wanna tell you because they

406
00:14:31,275 --> 00:14:33,199
didn't know you cared. It takes a long

407
00:14:33,199 --> 00:14:35,846
time to repair a relationship that you actually

408
00:14:36,062 --> 00:14:38,129
could have not even gone off track on

409
00:14:38,129 --> 00:14:39,799
if you had actually known where somebody else

410
00:14:39,799 --> 00:14:41,310
was coming from or understood what impact you

411
00:14:41,310 --> 00:14:43,397
were having on them. And so do you

412
00:14:43,397 --> 00:14:44,833
need to do this in every interaction of

413
00:14:44,833 --> 00:14:46,030
your day when you're, you know, go to

414
00:14:46,030 --> 00:14:47,306
the store or this and that... That's up

415
00:14:47,306 --> 00:14:49,540
to you. But when things really matter,

416
00:14:50,113 --> 00:14:52,442
It's actually... I think far more efficient

417
00:14:52,817 --> 00:14:53,317
to

418
00:14:53,771 --> 00:14:56,396
understand the insights of the people around you

419
00:14:56,396 --> 00:14:57,986
than to discover them when they're too late.

420
00:14:58,559 --> 00:15:00,394
I love that. This idea of pay now

421
00:15:00,394 --> 00:15:01,831
pay later because I think we can all

422
00:15:01,831 --> 00:15:03,667
relate to it. Yeah. Where we've made an

423
00:15:03,667 --> 00:15:05,662
assumption about something and then we've made a

424
00:15:05,662 --> 00:15:07,509
decision tied to that. And then we find

425
00:15:07,509 --> 00:15:08,326
out that

426
00:15:08,700 --> 00:15:10,607
well, we were wrong about the assumption, which

427
00:15:10,607 --> 00:15:12,593
means we have to unravel the decision that

428
00:15:12,593 --> 00:15:15,190
we made. And then there's apologies involved and

429
00:15:15,389 --> 00:15:17,950
best ceilings. We've all been there. Yeah. And

430
00:15:17,950 --> 00:15:20,610
lost time lost money, all kinds of consequences

431
00:15:20,669 --> 00:15:22,269
that we pay when we don't actually just

432
00:15:22,269 --> 00:15:23,389
get to the insight right in front of

433
00:15:23,389 --> 00:15:25,474
our noses. Great. 1 of the things that

434
00:15:25,474 --> 00:15:26,847
you hinted at is that

435
00:15:27,300 --> 00:15:30,023
there's a lot of information that is

436
00:15:30,397 --> 00:15:32,223
underneath the hood, if you will. Yeah. That

437
00:15:32,223 --> 00:15:34,945
people are holding back. Their struggles or frustrations,

438
00:15:35,264 --> 00:15:37,497
what they really believe about an issue. Like,

439
00:15:37,736 --> 00:15:39,571
you know, you're pitching something. Hey team. Is

440
00:15:39,571 --> 00:15:41,086
what we're gonna do and they'll be saying

441
00:15:41,086 --> 00:15:43,375
anything, and you think everybody's on board

442
00:15:43,974 --> 00:15:46,211
give us your best guidance on how we

443
00:15:46,211 --> 00:15:48,528
all can workplace managers, I suppose,

444
00:15:49,167 --> 00:15:51,139
can establish the trust

445
00:15:51,498 --> 00:15:53,884
and to employ the psychological safety that you

446
00:15:53,884 --> 00:15:56,930
referenced. So that people feel really comfortable being

447
00:15:56,986 --> 00:15:59,214
completely honest. But how do you get over

448
00:15:59,214 --> 00:16:02,415
that hurdle? Yeah. So I'll 0 in on

449
00:16:02,415 --> 00:16:04,089
this part of the ask approach that I

450
00:16:04,089 --> 00:16:05,444
called make it safe, because I think that's

451
00:16:05,444 --> 00:16:06,879
really what you're what you're getting at. I

452
00:16:06,879 --> 00:16:09,123
wanna know how to do it. Exactly 3

453
00:16:09,123 --> 00:16:10,634
strategies for how to do that. Yep. The

454
00:16:10,634 --> 00:16:12,962
first 1 is called just very simply create

455
00:16:13,019 --> 00:16:15,722
connection. And this has many different aspects to

456
00:16:15,722 --> 00:16:17,653
a, you know, 1 of the aspects is

457
00:16:17,964 --> 00:16:19,479
you may know the expression dig your well

458
00:16:19,479 --> 00:16:21,952
before your Thirsty. And so if you wanna

459
00:16:21,952 --> 00:16:23,388
learn something from someone. If you're gonna wanna

460
00:16:23,388 --> 00:16:24,185
ask them a question,

461
00:16:24,823 --> 00:16:28,448
you've gotta have invested in that relationship well

462
00:16:28,505 --> 00:16:30,334
before the time when it comes that you're

463
00:16:30,334 --> 00:16:32,560
gonna actually wanna be learning from them because

464
00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:34,627
that's the time when you really have the

465
00:16:34,627 --> 00:16:35,843
opportunity to build trust

466
00:16:36,154 --> 00:16:38,715
to see each other's humanity to really feel

467
00:16:38,715 --> 00:16:40,715
connected to each other at every level. This

468
00:16:40,715 --> 00:16:42,875
is way before you wanna actually do any

469
00:16:42,875 --> 00:16:44,394
kind of question asking learning something is you

470
00:16:44,394 --> 00:16:46,087
wanna have invested in the relationships that matter.

471
00:16:46,724 --> 00:16:49,191
But also part of creating connection in the

472
00:16:49,191 --> 00:16:49,691
moment

473
00:16:50,306 --> 00:16:52,932
is even just the where and how the

474
00:16:52,932 --> 00:16:54,683
connection takes place. And in the research for

475
00:16:54,683 --> 00:16:56,535
the book, that I interviewed a number of

476
00:16:56,615 --> 00:16:58,875
Ceos, and I wanted to interview Ceos

477
00:16:59,335 --> 00:17:01,115
because Ceos are notorious

478
00:17:01,495 --> 00:17:03,349
for not getting the truth from people. For

479
00:17:03,349 --> 00:17:05,426
being insulated from the truth because people wanna

480
00:17:05,426 --> 00:17:06,625
tell us ceos yields what they think they

481
00:17:06,625 --> 00:17:08,302
wanna hear, what the think gonna make them

482
00:17:08,302 --> 00:17:09,900
look good. And so I talked to a

483
00:17:09,900 --> 00:17:12,471
number Ceos, including, you know, iconic Ceos, people

484
00:17:12,471 --> 00:17:14,709
like Bill George from Med tron or Irene

485
00:17:14,709 --> 00:17:16,387
read Rose fell from Kraft and a number

486
00:17:16,387 --> 00:17:18,399
of others. And I sent to them, how

487
00:17:18,399 --> 00:17:19,438
did you get people to tell you the

488
00:17:19,438 --> 00:17:20,477
truth? How did you get them to feel

489
00:17:20,477 --> 00:17:22,475
comfortable telling you? And 1 of the interesting

490
00:17:22,475 --> 00:17:24,952
patterns was, they sent things like, if I

491
00:17:24,952 --> 00:17:26,790
want someone to feel comfortable telling me the

492
00:17:26,790 --> 00:17:27,030
truth?

493
00:17:27,764 --> 00:17:29,522
I'm not gonna drag them into my office,

494
00:17:29,922 --> 00:17:32,080
make them sit across the big Ceo desk

495
00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:33,917
for me. And assume that they're gonna feel

496
00:17:33,917 --> 00:17:35,676
comfortable to tell me the truth. No. I'm

497
00:17:35,676 --> 00:17:37,529
gonna flatten the hierarchy. Mean go to them.

498
00:17:37,769 --> 00:17:39,210
We're gonna go on and ride along together.

499
00:17:39,369 --> 00:17:41,210
We're gonna eat in the cafeteria together. We're

500
00:17:41,210 --> 00:17:43,450
going to take a walk together. And there

501
00:17:43,450 --> 00:17:45,130
was no single answer as to where and

502
00:17:45,130 --> 00:17:47,538
when to do it. Other than wherever it's

503
00:17:47,538 --> 00:17:49,449
gonna be most comfortable for the other person.

504
00:17:49,847 --> 00:17:51,361
And sometimes it takes asking them, you, where

505
00:17:51,361 --> 00:17:52,715
you wanna have this conversation where when you

506
00:17:52,715 --> 00:17:54,467
be comfortable having it, but they were very

507
00:17:54,467 --> 00:17:56,478
att to the time and space of creating

508
00:17:56,478 --> 00:17:58,716
connection. So that's all part of it. A

509
00:17:58,716 --> 00:18:01,054
second part of creating this kind of psychological

510
00:18:01,752 --> 00:18:04,490
safety at the interpersonal level is very simply

511
00:18:04,804 --> 00:18:06,640
just opening up. Know, if we want the

512
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,875
other person to open up. We gotta open

513
00:18:08,875 --> 00:18:11,269
up first. We gotta let them know why

514
00:18:11,269 --> 00:18:13,319
are we asking the question? Because people will

515
00:18:13,599 --> 00:18:15,517
especially if there's any kind of power differential

516
00:18:15,517 --> 00:18:17,833
or across other lines of difference. People will

517
00:18:17,833 --> 00:18:19,431
guess, will make up stories as to why

518
00:18:19,431 --> 00:18:21,757
we're asking them questions. And sometimes they're kind

519
00:18:21,757 --> 00:18:24,459
of suspicious, and we can overcome that by

520
00:18:24,459 --> 00:18:25,652
simply saying, look, here's what I don't know.

521
00:18:25,811 --> 00:18:27,241
Here's why I'm curious. Here's what I'm stuck

522
00:18:27,241 --> 00:18:29,546
on. Here's what I am wrestling with myself.

523
00:18:30,038 --> 00:18:31,702
And the more vulnerable we can be in

524
00:18:31,702 --> 00:18:34,080
opening up about why we need them and

525
00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:35,823
why we value them and what we might

526
00:18:35,823 --> 00:18:36,933
be dealing with ourselves.

527
00:18:37,503 --> 00:18:39,334
The safer it becomes for them to also

528
00:18:39,334 --> 00:18:41,243
share with us what they're challenged by. So

529
00:18:41,243 --> 00:18:42,676
dig to that just a little bit deeper

530
00:18:42,676 --> 00:18:44,347
and tell me what some of the behaviors

531
00:18:44,347 --> 00:18:46,518
that Yeah. That we do is leaders

532
00:18:46,828 --> 00:18:50,085
that actually work against us that influence people

533
00:18:50,085 --> 00:18:52,229
to withhold speaking their truth. Yeah. I mean,

534
00:18:52,308 --> 00:18:54,612
well, specifically as it relates to opening up,

535
00:18:55,104 --> 00:18:56,782
1 of the biggest ones is not telling

536
00:18:56,782 --> 00:18:58,859
them why we're asking the questions. Or peer

537
00:18:58,859 --> 00:19:00,377
as though we have it all figured out

538
00:19:00,377 --> 00:19:03,028
when really we're struggling with things ourselves. As

539
00:19:03,028 --> 00:19:04,007
opposed to

540
00:19:04,465 --> 00:19:06,541
disclosing our dilemma and letting them know. Look

541
00:19:06,541 --> 00:19:08,137
here. I... I'm actually stuck on this and

542
00:19:08,217 --> 00:19:10,133
I truly know I'm missing something here and

543
00:19:10,213 --> 00:19:11,410
I know I don't have all the pieces

544
00:19:11,410 --> 00:19:13,184
of the information, I didn't think you see

545
00:19:13,184 --> 00:19:14,384
some things I don't see it and I'd

546
00:19:14,384 --> 00:19:15,664
love to understand how you look at this.

547
00:19:16,384 --> 00:19:17,904
Doing more of that and less of them,

548
00:19:17,984 --> 00:19:20,075
like, I've got it altogether. The other thing

549
00:19:20,075 --> 00:19:22,404
that leaders do that I think absolutely

550
00:19:22,778 --> 00:19:23,993
kills people's safety

551
00:19:24,527 --> 00:19:27,332
is when they get defensive or punish people

552
00:19:27,627 --> 00:19:29,710
for saying that truth. All it takes is

553
00:19:29,710 --> 00:19:31,460
1 time that someone tries to tell you

554
00:19:31,460 --> 00:19:33,869
the truth, and you fly off the handle

555
00:19:34,005 --> 00:19:35,437
or you show them that you can handle

556
00:19:35,437 --> 00:19:37,365
it. And not only are they not gonna

557
00:19:37,365 --> 00:19:38,721
tell you the truth, They're gonna tell all

558
00:19:38,721 --> 00:19:40,476
their colleagues at Fred the organization that you

559
00:19:40,476 --> 00:19:41,752
can't handle the truth and then it's over.

560
00:19:42,071 --> 00:19:44,464
And so I also talk about this idea

561
00:19:44,464 --> 00:19:45,580
of radiating resilience.

562
00:19:46,153 --> 00:19:49,022
You've gotta be letting people know that you

563
00:19:49,022 --> 00:19:51,334
can handle their truth. And not just esp

564
00:19:51,334 --> 00:19:52,848
that by telling them that, but by actually

565
00:19:52,848 --> 00:19:55,019
demonstrating that. Sometimes that can be as simple

566
00:19:55,019 --> 00:19:56,220
as saying, hey, look, if I run your

567
00:19:56,220 --> 00:19:57,819
shoes, I would be probably pretty annoyed with

568
00:19:57,819 --> 00:19:59,259
me right now. I'd be pretty frustrated at

569
00:19:59,259 --> 00:20:01,579
this situation. If that's what you're feeling, I

570
00:20:01,579 --> 00:20:03,434
would totally get would totally understand I would

571
00:20:03,434 --> 00:20:05,195
love to hear more about that. Even just

572
00:20:05,195 --> 00:20:06,875
something like that can make it disposable so

573
00:20:06,875 --> 00:20:08,394
someone can say, yeah. What you just said

574
00:20:08,394 --> 00:20:09,835
that is what I'm feeling right now. When

575
00:20:09,835 --> 00:20:11,515
they say that knowing that I'm not going

576
00:20:11,515 --> 00:20:14,070
to crumble. I'm not going to fly off

577
00:20:14,070 --> 00:20:15,735
the handle. And if I have an emotional

578
00:20:15,735 --> 00:20:16,765
reaction to what they have to say, I'm

579
00:20:16,765 --> 00:20:18,192
not gonna blame them for it. So this

580
00:20:18,192 --> 00:20:20,509
radiating of resilience, is another piece of what

581
00:20:20,588 --> 00:20:22,259
I think goes into this creating a sense

582
00:20:22,259 --> 00:20:25,202
of safety. You've really gotta become securing yourself

583
00:20:25,202 --> 00:20:26,966
to be able to pull that off. Right?

584
00:20:27,125 --> 00:20:28,634
I mean, if you want the truth and

585
00:20:28,634 --> 00:20:31,652
the truth hurts, Like, everything you just described,

586
00:20:32,049 --> 00:20:34,115
I've been with leaders who can't do it

587
00:20:34,115 --> 00:20:34,615
because

588
00:20:35,004 --> 00:20:37,561
they're friend on some level. Yeah. Like, they've

589
00:20:37,561 --> 00:20:40,039
already made the decision or the stakes them

590
00:20:40,039 --> 00:20:42,436
look stupid or they're gonna good trouble, all

591
00:20:42,436 --> 00:20:44,523
those kinds of things. Absolutely. I mean, if

592
00:20:44,523 --> 00:20:46,511
you're not actually resilient, you're not gonna be

593
00:20:46,511 --> 00:20:48,021
able to radiate that kind of resilience in

594
00:20:48,021 --> 00:20:49,770
the first place. How do you cultivate that

595
00:20:49,770 --> 00:20:51,757
if there's 1 person out there that feels

596
00:20:51,757 --> 00:20:53,682
that they wobble on that mean, I think

597
00:20:53,682 --> 00:20:55,594
that is work to do either with yourself

598
00:20:55,594 --> 00:20:57,289
or with a coach or with a therapist

599
00:20:57,586 --> 00:20:59,339
to basically say what's a stake for me

600
00:20:59,339 --> 00:21:01,506
personally here right now. And why is this

601
00:21:01,506 --> 00:21:02,883
getting to me? And what are the triggers

602
00:21:02,941 --> 00:21:05,013
inside of me? And doing some kind of

603
00:21:05,013 --> 00:21:07,006
reflection on that to say, alright. I need

604
00:21:07,006 --> 00:21:08,934
to get set with myself on this so

605
00:21:08,934 --> 00:21:10,051
that I can then get in book from

606
00:21:10,051 --> 00:21:12,525
other people. 1 of my favorite quotes of

607
00:21:12,525 --> 00:21:15,079
all time is from Ball, who says, if

608
00:21:15,079 --> 00:21:17,669
you're not embarrassed about who you were yesterday.

609
00:21:18,044 --> 00:21:20,432
You're not learning fast enough. And so when

610
00:21:20,511 --> 00:21:23,217
I'm feeling maybe a little bit wobbly myself.

611
00:21:23,615 --> 00:21:25,127
I remind myself that. And I say, you

612
00:21:25,127 --> 00:21:26,971
know what They might tell me something that

613
00:21:26,971 --> 00:21:28,797
shows how I screwed something up, and thank

614
00:21:28,797 --> 00:21:30,067
god they told me because now I know.

615
00:21:30,225 --> 00:21:32,765
No kidding. Yeah. Yeah. You wanna know. Right?

616
00:21:33,003 --> 00:21:34,828
Goes back to your pay now pay later

617
00:21:34,828 --> 00:21:37,073
thing. By the way, you know, there's research

618
00:21:37,073 --> 00:21:38,450
that shows that

619
00:21:38,827 --> 00:21:41,617
if you ask somebody for a favor and

620
00:21:41,617 --> 00:21:44,023
you explain what the favor is for, In

621
00:21:44,023 --> 00:21:45,798
other words, could you do this for me

622
00:21:45,855 --> 00:21:48,085
because I need to do this? Yeah. People

623
00:21:48,085 --> 00:21:50,792
are much more willing to do it because

624
00:21:50,792 --> 00:21:53,118
they know what they're contributing to? As opposed

625
00:21:53,118 --> 00:21:54,396
to, hey. Could you just do this for

626
00:21:54,396 --> 00:21:54,954
me? Like,

627
00:21:55,673 --> 00:21:57,349
you know, so it aligns to what you...

628
00:21:57,589 --> 00:21:59,425
That's a beautiful example of opening up. It's,

629
00:21:59,505 --> 00:22:00,942
like, letting them know what you need or

630
00:22:00,942 --> 00:22:03,115
why you need it. Great. I love your

631
00:22:03,115 --> 00:22:05,694
insight on how do they cultivate a better

632
00:22:05,914 --> 00:22:08,394
sense of self security here. So bravo,

633
00:22:09,194 --> 00:22:10,634
what are some of the best questions that

634
00:22:10,634 --> 00:22:12,876
you've learned? That we could just steal from

635
00:22:12,876 --> 00:22:15,570
you. Absolutely. That tend to elicit the most

636
00:22:15,570 --> 00:22:19,494
useful insights. 1 of my favorite questions strategies

637
00:22:19,713 --> 00:22:21,231
among the taxonomy I talked about in the

638
00:22:21,231 --> 00:22:24,507
book is simply called request reactions. And maybe

639
00:22:24,667 --> 00:22:25,626
I'll just share it by way of a

640
00:22:25,626 --> 00:22:26,880
short story, which is that when I was

641
00:22:27,079 --> 00:22:28,673
first taught this. I was a new manager.

642
00:22:28,832 --> 00:22:31,701
This was 20 some years ago. And I

643
00:22:31,701 --> 00:22:33,534
was managing someone, and I thought I was

644
00:22:33,534 --> 00:22:34,704
doing a good job, but I had just

645
00:22:34,824 --> 00:22:36,659
given him a bunch of direction and a

646
00:22:36,659 --> 00:22:38,334
little feedback and I thought I was, you

647
00:22:38,334 --> 00:22:39,929
know, sending him off to take next steps

648
00:22:39,929 --> 00:22:41,524
and that we were in good place. And

649
00:22:41,604 --> 00:22:42,880
I said to myself. Well, they just taught

650
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,364
me, I should ask for his reactions. So

651
00:22:45,364 --> 00:22:47,507
before we ended, I just said, hey, what

652
00:22:47,507 --> 00:22:48,936
what are your reactions to what we just

653
00:22:48,936 --> 00:22:50,127
talked about what I asked you to do.

654
00:22:50,682 --> 00:22:51,873
And he looked at me for a second

655
00:22:51,873 --> 00:22:54,513
and he said, if I'm honest, I'm completely

656
00:22:54,513 --> 00:22:56,511
demo by what you just told me. And

657
00:22:56,670 --> 00:22:59,067
I thought to myself, wow. Had I not

658
00:22:59,067 --> 00:23:00,905
asked that question of what are your reactions?

659
00:23:01,318 --> 00:23:02,830
I never would have I've had any clue.

660
00:23:03,228 --> 00:23:05,853
And he was anything other than board. And

661
00:23:05,853 --> 00:23:07,445
then that led us to say, well, come.

662
00:23:07,683 --> 00:23:09,672
And it turned out that we had different

663
00:23:09,672 --> 00:23:12,404
information. We were making different assumptions about what

664
00:23:12,404 --> 00:23:13,845
needed to happen with our client, and he

665
00:23:13,845 --> 00:23:15,204
thought that what I was asking to do

666
00:23:15,204 --> 00:23:17,125
made no sense. Once we were able to

667
00:23:17,125 --> 00:23:18,574
open that up, we on the same page

668
00:23:18,574 --> 00:23:20,479
and, he genuinely wasn't a good place. But

669
00:23:20,479 --> 00:23:22,304
that question, what are your reactions? I think

670
00:23:22,304 --> 00:23:23,201
is so powerful

671
00:23:23,892 --> 00:23:26,035
because we can assume that if someone disagrees

672
00:23:26,035 --> 00:23:28,217
with us, or if someone has a negative

673
00:23:28,273 --> 00:23:30,656
reaction that they're gonna tell us. But so

674
00:23:30,656 --> 00:23:32,801
often, they're not gonna tell us. Maybe because

675
00:23:32,801 --> 00:23:34,310
they're not feeling safe with us, maybe because

676
00:23:34,310 --> 00:23:35,582
they don't know how to express it all

677
00:23:35,582 --> 00:23:37,505
kinds of different reasons. But if we say,

678
00:23:37,664 --> 00:23:39,255
what are your reactions or how does that

679
00:23:39,255 --> 00:23:40,449
land with you? Or how does that sit

680
00:23:40,449 --> 00:23:41,642
with you? Or how does that strike you?

681
00:23:41,801 --> 00:23:43,393
Or what does that make you think or

682
00:23:43,393 --> 00:23:45,382
what might I be missing? Any version of

683
00:23:45,382 --> 00:23:47,875
that can give us a far greater chance

684
00:23:47,875 --> 00:23:50,835
of actually hearing what someone's reactions are. That's

685
00:23:50,835 --> 00:23:52,914
fantastic. What else? Give me some more. I'm

686
00:23:52,914 --> 00:23:54,434
like, that's really great.

687
00:23:55,169 --> 00:23:57,085
So once they tell us what their reactions

688
00:23:57,085 --> 00:23:59,559
are, usually what we're not getting is where

689
00:23:59,559 --> 00:24:01,954
those reactions come from. And so there's another

690
00:24:01,954 --> 00:24:03,790
strategy that I talk about called Dig deeper.

691
00:24:04,363 --> 00:24:05,793
Which just simply to say, you know, if

692
00:24:05,793 --> 00:24:07,700
they tell me, I really disagree with what

693
00:24:07,700 --> 00:24:09,210
you had to say, or I think that's

694
00:24:09,210 --> 00:24:11,117
not the right direction. Instead of me saying,

695
00:24:11,197 --> 00:24:12,230
well, let me tell you I it is

696
00:24:12,230 --> 00:24:13,918
the right direction. I need to say tell

697
00:24:13,918 --> 00:24:15,594
me more about that. What are the concerns

698
00:24:15,594 --> 00:24:16,871
that you're trying to solve for? What are

699
00:24:16,871 --> 00:24:18,228
the interests that make you think this is

700
00:24:18,228 --> 00:24:19,505
the other way or what are the reasons

701
00:24:19,505 --> 00:24:21,820
that you have? And sometimes dig deeper,

702
00:24:22,394 --> 00:24:24,791
is not just about the analytic reasons. And

703
00:24:24,951 --> 00:24:26,229
I know you talked a lot about the

704
00:24:26,229 --> 00:24:28,466
importance of the heart. Sometimes dig deeper results

705
00:24:28,466 --> 00:24:29,480
about tell me a story

706
00:24:29,838 --> 00:24:31,592
about something that you've seen and when this

707
00:24:31,592 --> 00:24:33,267
is going wrong or what this brings up

708
00:24:33,267 --> 00:24:34,702
for you? What are some of the feelings

709
00:24:34,702 --> 00:24:36,695
that this is pressing on or triggering you

710
00:24:36,695 --> 00:24:38,265
or whatever? How does it make you feel

711
00:24:38,384 --> 00:24:39,898
any number of things. So when we dig

712
00:24:39,898 --> 00:24:41,492
deeper, it's not just about digging deeper to

713
00:24:41,492 --> 00:24:43,007
get to what is your information and your

714
00:24:43,007 --> 00:24:44,840
data and your logic, but it also what

715
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:46,687
does this make you feel as well. So

716
00:24:46,687 --> 00:24:48,119
that'll be another strategy to talk about. I'm

717
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:49,869
happy to share more too. I'm actually gonna

718
00:24:49,869 --> 00:24:52,017
ask you to because you're hitting out something

719
00:24:52,017 --> 00:24:52,892
that's really important.

720
00:24:53,543 --> 00:24:55,686
And there was a book years ago, the

721
00:24:55,686 --> 00:24:58,226
inner child of your past and people mocked

722
00:24:58,226 --> 00:24:59,020
it regularly.

723
00:24:59,575 --> 00:25:02,036
And yet, there was this powerful insight that...

724
00:25:02,449 --> 00:25:03,747
Most of us are still

725
00:25:04,125 --> 00:25:05,901
operating as our childhood selves

726
00:25:06,279 --> 00:25:08,991
emotionally. Like, some experience we had early on

727
00:25:08,991 --> 00:25:09,470
our life.

728
00:25:10,044 --> 00:25:12,595
We re experience it, and it triggers a

729
00:25:12,595 --> 00:25:14,190
feeling and we're not even aware of it.

730
00:25:14,589 --> 00:25:17,619
So what you've just done is to ask

731
00:25:17,619 --> 00:25:18,677
people to

732
00:25:19,229 --> 00:25:21,461
why are you responding that way? What's your

733
00:25:21,461 --> 00:25:24,013
reaction? But why is that your reaction? Yes

734
00:25:24,173 --> 00:25:25,470
That is a really powerful

735
00:25:25,927 --> 00:25:27,920
combination. So please do tell us for about

736
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:29,453
that? Yeah. And I'll just say 1 thing

737
00:25:29,453 --> 00:25:31,131
that I learned throughout the whole process is

738
00:25:31,131 --> 00:25:32,749
that the word why

739
00:25:33,208 --> 00:25:36,496
can trigger funny reactions as the people. Sometimes,

740
00:25:36,734 --> 00:25:38,798
even if we're genuinely wanna know what's underneath

741
00:25:38,798 --> 00:25:41,260
that, the word why can sound like an

742
00:25:41,260 --> 00:25:42,610
attack question like, yeah. Why would you think

743
00:25:42,610 --> 00:25:44,754
that? No. And so, you know, depending on

744
00:25:44,754 --> 00:25:46,684
the context, and the relationship in the tone.

745
00:25:47,404 --> 00:25:49,085
Confrontational. It may... Yeah. It may be fine,

746
00:25:49,244 --> 00:25:51,005
but it can also be confrontational on. So,

747
00:25:51,085 --> 00:25:52,285
you know, can you walk me through your

748
00:25:52,285 --> 00:25:53,579
process how did you get to that thinking.

749
00:25:53,740 --> 00:25:55,900
What's underneath that? There's a whole different range

750
00:25:55,900 --> 00:25:57,420
of different ways that we could that we

751
00:25:57,420 --> 00:25:58,940
can dig deeper? That's really powerful.

752
00:25:59,420 --> 00:26:02,035
So, you know, another category of questions is

753
00:26:02,154 --> 00:26:04,727
and I think leaders don't use nearly enough

754
00:26:04,865 --> 00:26:07,656
is simply what I call invite input, which

755
00:26:07,656 --> 00:26:09,251
is to say to somebody else... Hey, look,

756
00:26:09,331 --> 00:26:10,367
if you were in my shoes, how would

757
00:26:10,367 --> 00:26:12,538
you be thinking about this? What's a suggestion

758
00:26:12,538 --> 00:26:14,295
that you have for something that I could

759
00:26:14,295 --> 00:26:15,594
be doing differently

760
00:26:15,973 --> 00:26:18,210
or operating in a different way, or I'm

761
00:26:18,210 --> 00:26:20,142
just stuck in this way, and here's the

762
00:26:20,142 --> 00:26:21,820
dilemma that I'm facing. I think so often,

763
00:26:22,220 --> 00:26:24,936
as leaders, we think we've gotta calculate our

764
00:26:24,936 --> 00:26:26,789
answers to these dilemma privately.

765
00:26:27,269 --> 00:26:28,869
But when we can actually lay out the

766
00:26:28,869 --> 00:26:30,470
dilemma on the table, it gives people so

767
00:26:30,470 --> 00:26:31,990
much more empathy for what we're up against.

768
00:26:32,390 --> 00:26:34,321
And then to simply say how would you

769
00:26:34,321 --> 00:26:35,356
think about this? What would you do in

770
00:26:35,356 --> 00:26:37,108
my shoes? Do you any suggestions? What advice

771
00:26:37,108 --> 00:26:39,098
do you have? And to me, this is

772
00:26:39,098 --> 00:26:41,885
where the collective genius of a team, You

773
00:26:41,885 --> 00:26:44,309
know or an organization can get unleashed

774
00:26:44,684 --> 00:26:48,207
because the people around us have such incredible

775
00:26:48,263 --> 00:26:48,763
ideas

776
00:26:49,234 --> 00:26:51,072
their ideas are so good, they think they're

777
00:26:51,072 --> 00:26:52,351
too crazy to say, or they think no

778
00:26:52,351 --> 00:26:53,869
1 would listen to them. But if we

779
00:26:53,869 --> 00:26:56,107
can literally say, what's your best idea for

780
00:26:56,107 --> 00:26:57,465
how to do this Or 1 5 ideas

781
00:26:57,465 --> 00:26:59,472
that you have. Sometimes it's just incredible how

782
00:26:59,472 --> 00:27:00,290
much more

783
00:27:00,903 --> 00:27:01,937
potential there is that if we have to

784
00:27:01,937 --> 00:27:03,448
figure this thing out inside our own heads.

785
00:27:04,163 --> 00:27:05,220
How do you square

786
00:27:05,595 --> 00:27:08,394
when you're getting all kinds of ideas, And

787
00:27:08,394 --> 00:27:09,595
at some point, you're gonna have to make

788
00:27:09,595 --> 00:27:11,994
a decision, and you're gonna have to choose

789
00:27:11,994 --> 00:27:14,634
it something that somebody was really passionate about.

790
00:27:14,795 --> 00:27:16,474
And other people's ideas don't get chosen.

791
00:27:17,126 --> 00:27:19,112
Yeah. And so I was like, well, he

792
00:27:19,112 --> 00:27:20,462
asked us for it, and then he didn't

793
00:27:20,462 --> 00:27:23,003
do anything with it. So, you know, forget

794
00:27:23,003 --> 00:27:24,672
that guy. I'm not gonna give him my

795
00:27:24,672 --> 00:27:26,993
feedback time. My county you avert that. Yeah.

796
00:27:27,153 --> 00:27:29,698
So 2 things. 1 is, sometimes when someone

797
00:27:29,698 --> 00:27:32,722
gives an idea, the idea itself may not

798
00:27:32,722 --> 00:27:34,728
be the best idea. Next But the thing

799
00:27:34,728 --> 00:27:36,745
that that idea is trying to solve for

800
00:27:37,283 --> 00:27:39,758
is really important. And so sometimes when listening

801
00:27:39,758 --> 00:27:41,195
to the idea is the follow question with,

802
00:27:41,354 --> 00:27:44,004
you, the dig deeper question there is, tell

803
00:27:44,004 --> 00:27:45,201
me what that idea is try to sell

804
00:27:45,201 --> 00:27:47,276
for? Tell me what that idea why you

805
00:27:47,276 --> 00:27:49,932
think that idea has so much potential? Or

806
00:27:49,990 --> 00:27:51,347
what are some of the interests that idea

807
00:27:51,347 --> 00:27:53,515
is trying to provide? Sometimes if you don't

808
00:27:53,515 --> 00:27:56,007
take someone's idea, but if you can then

809
00:27:56,065 --> 00:27:58,215
understand where that idea is coming from, that

810
00:27:58,215 --> 00:28:00,300
means give rise to other ideas. That can

811
00:28:00,300 --> 00:28:01,809
speak to that. And so it's not enough

812
00:28:01,809 --> 00:28:02,842
just to say, give me the headline of

813
00:28:02,842 --> 00:28:04,272
your idea. Let's take deeper to understand that.

814
00:28:04,431 --> 00:28:06,679
And oftentimes the direction that you take

815
00:28:06,989 --> 00:28:10,096
can connect to their underlying reasons and interests

816
00:28:10,096 --> 00:28:12,805
and concerns behind their ideas. But then the

817
00:28:12,805 --> 00:28:14,399
other thing is decisions do have to get

818
00:28:14,399 --> 00:28:15,913
made, and we could probably have a whole

819
00:28:15,913 --> 00:28:18,634
conversation about different decision making structures and who

820
00:28:18,634 --> 00:28:19,908
gets to make the decision and how different

821
00:28:19,908 --> 00:28:21,102
people weigh in and all that kind of

822
00:28:21,102 --> 00:28:22,136
stuff. But at the end of the day

823
00:28:22,136 --> 00:28:23,569
if you're a leader and you're going with

824
00:28:23,569 --> 00:28:25,660
some ideas, and you're not going with other

825
00:28:25,660 --> 00:28:28,220
ideas. The most important thing is to close

826
00:28:28,220 --> 00:28:30,140
that loop. Is to say, I got all

827
00:28:30,140 --> 00:28:31,980
this input. I thought it through. It was

828
00:28:31,980 --> 00:28:34,165
valuable. Let me tell you here the ideas

829
00:28:34,299 --> 00:28:36,599
that we're going with, and here's why. Here's

830
00:28:36,599 --> 00:28:38,662
are some of the ideas that I actually

831
00:28:38,662 --> 00:28:40,169
think we should be thinking about for the

832
00:28:40,169 --> 00:28:42,500
future. Here's why I don't think we can

833
00:28:42,500 --> 00:28:44,259
do them right now. And here's some of

834
00:28:44,259 --> 00:28:45,619
the ideas that I didn't choose. And let

835
00:28:45,619 --> 00:28:46,899
me tell you the rationale before I didn't

836
00:28:46,899 --> 00:28:48,659
choose us. And I'm open to more dialogue

837
00:28:48,659 --> 00:28:50,099
over time if, you know, if that rationale

838
00:28:50,099 --> 00:28:52,108
does turn out to be right, But know

839
00:28:52,108 --> 00:28:53,861
this is the call Making right now. And

840
00:28:53,861 --> 00:28:55,854
just that closing of the loop, I think

841
00:28:55,854 --> 00:28:57,847
goes 80 percent of the distance to people

842
00:28:57,847 --> 00:28:58,347
thinking

843
00:28:58,738 --> 00:29:00,648
Alright. They listen to me. They thought through

844
00:29:00,648 --> 00:29:01,921
what I had to say they took my

845
00:29:01,921 --> 00:29:04,944
seriously. I don't think people necessarily are judging

846
00:29:04,944 --> 00:29:06,536
a leader based on does that lead do

847
00:29:06,536 --> 00:29:08,380
everything that they said. As much as does

848
00:29:08,380 --> 00:29:10,208
that leader take the idea seriously. Does that

849
00:29:10,208 --> 00:29:12,831
leader show value by closing the loop? So

850
00:29:12,831 --> 00:29:14,024
that be the second suggestion I would make.

851
00:29:14,262 --> 00:29:15,216
It's very insightful.

852
00:29:15,708 --> 00:29:18,327
Years ago, probably, I'm thinking now close to

853
00:29:18,327 --> 00:29:21,343
a decade ago. I went and spent the

854
00:29:21,343 --> 00:29:22,851
day in Les bucks.

855
00:29:23,664 --> 00:29:26,081
Talent management team. U. And

856
00:29:26,539 --> 00:29:28,856
Karen May, she's not there any longer, but

857
00:29:28,856 --> 00:29:31,349
when she was there she said 1 of

858
00:29:31,349 --> 00:29:33,690
the most important things that we do here

859
00:29:34,150 --> 00:29:36,309
is give people voice. And it was the

860
00:29:36,309 --> 00:29:37,910
first time that I'd had heard that language,

861
00:29:38,150 --> 00:29:39,750
and I just absolutely loved it.

862
00:29:40,558 --> 00:29:41,613
Largely because

863
00:29:41,984 --> 00:29:43,886
I done it in my entire career and

864
00:29:43,886 --> 00:29:45,708
saw the response that people had. It's everything

865
00:29:45,708 --> 00:29:46,817
that you're just describing.

866
00:29:47,468 --> 00:29:49,383
But the insight that I got from her

867
00:29:49,383 --> 00:29:50,521
that I hadn't had

868
00:29:50,898 --> 00:29:52,892
was that they tell people.

869
00:29:53,690 --> 00:29:56,721
Your voice is so important. Your opinion is

870
00:29:56,721 --> 00:29:58,986
so important. That we're are gonna be surveying.

871
00:29:59,281 --> 00:30:01,666
We're going to be doing, you know, little

872
00:30:01,666 --> 00:30:03,359
groups of of discussions

873
00:30:03,733 --> 00:30:07,882
we're ad hoc conversations and important our expectation

874
00:30:07,882 --> 00:30:10,187
of you as a member of our company

875
00:30:10,187 --> 00:30:11,776
and as a member of our team is

876
00:30:11,776 --> 00:30:13,525
that you're gonna participate in a number of

877
00:30:13,525 --> 00:30:15,353
them. You can participate in every 1 of

878
00:30:15,353 --> 00:30:17,224
them, that we asked you for

879
00:30:17,763 --> 00:30:20,160
but you're gonna have to participate in a

880
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,078
certain number of them. Like, we're not going

881
00:30:22,078 --> 00:30:22,877
to exclude you.

882
00:30:23,597 --> 00:30:25,730
And what I got from that was that

883
00:30:26,008 --> 00:30:28,951
by doing that and just repeating, giving everybody

884
00:30:28,951 --> 00:30:31,734
an opportunity that they feel like they're integral,

885
00:30:32,132 --> 00:30:34,041
and they're to your point a second ago,

886
00:30:34,534 --> 00:30:36,366
Like, most people are reasonable. And they're like,

887
00:30:36,445 --> 00:30:38,198
well Gave them 5 ideas and you didn't

888
00:30:38,198 --> 00:30:40,110
use all 5, so, you know, forget it.

889
00:30:40,588 --> 00:30:43,406
They know that it's being integrated into the

890
00:30:43,540 --> 00:30:45,600
conversation with everyone else and that everyone else

891
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:46,948
is being tapped into.

892
00:30:47,661 --> 00:30:48,453
And inevitably,

893
00:30:48,850 --> 00:30:51,573
it's the ideas that somebody gonna have are

894
00:30:51,573 --> 00:30:54,600
gonna be implemented, and that's the validation. Would

895
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:56,432
you agree with that? Yeah. A hundred percent.

896
00:30:56,592 --> 00:30:58,026
I love that example. And I think what?

897
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,079
That also illustrates to me is that when

898
00:31:01,079 --> 00:31:02,839
we ask people for information,

899
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:04,759
this is not just at a 1 way

900
00:31:04,759 --> 00:31:06,599
extract process. This is not just about saying,

901
00:31:06,679 --> 00:31:08,039
like, let me just get the best ideas.

902
00:31:08,214 --> 00:31:09,731
Out of them and then, you know, forget

903
00:31:09,731 --> 00:31:11,966
them. This is a mutual process, and this

904
00:31:11,966 --> 00:31:13,803
is a process that I think creates a

905
00:31:13,803 --> 00:31:16,357
positive feeling in the other person or the

906
00:31:16,357 --> 00:31:18,286
other team members as well that we care

907
00:31:18,286 --> 00:31:20,035
about them, and we value them. And that

908
00:31:20,035 --> 00:31:22,420
changes everything about our dynamic and our relationship

909
00:31:22,420 --> 00:31:22,579
too.

910
00:31:23,295 --> 00:31:25,442
So you just made another really important point,

911
00:31:25,601 --> 00:31:28,238
which is underscores the whole theme of this

912
00:31:28,238 --> 00:31:30,779
podcast is that feelings and emotions drive behavior.

913
00:31:31,096 --> 00:31:33,796
Yes. And so how people are feeling is

914
00:31:33,796 --> 00:31:37,382
if you're giving them opportunities to help you

915
00:31:37,382 --> 00:31:39,283
as the manager and to guide you and

916
00:31:39,283 --> 00:31:40,709
to say, hey, I'm faced with the dilemma

917
00:31:40,709 --> 00:31:41,739
my here, and I'm trying to make the

918
00:31:41,739 --> 00:31:43,665
best decision. What would you do

919
00:31:43,973 --> 00:31:47,394
you're creating a really remarkably powerful feeling inside

920
00:31:47,394 --> 00:31:50,678
of people that can ultimately translate into

921
00:31:50,988 --> 00:31:52,814
don't wanna use this word anymore because I'm

922
00:31:52,814 --> 00:31:55,434
turning away from it, but engagement and, Yeah.

923
00:31:55,593 --> 00:31:57,816
And commitment and so forth. I'm feeling that

924
00:31:57,895 --> 00:32:00,372
I'm... I matter. Then we matter. Yeah. And

925
00:32:00,372 --> 00:32:02,759
we underestimate sometimes how important that is the

926
00:32:02,759 --> 00:32:05,328
people. Right? I mean, just the sense that

927
00:32:05,703 --> 00:32:07,294
I matter to you as the manager and

928
00:32:07,374 --> 00:32:08,806
I matter to the people around me.

929
00:32:09,538 --> 00:32:12,651
That we're finding that those 2 things are

930
00:32:12,651 --> 00:32:16,402
perhaps the most important thing of driving somebody's

931
00:32:16,402 --> 00:32:20,271
well being, which then translates into their loyalty

932
00:32:20,330 --> 00:32:22,807
and their commitment and they're doing optimal work.

933
00:32:23,127 --> 00:32:24,485
Exactly. So you're nailing it.

934
00:32:25,215 --> 00:32:27,597
Something that we were talking about before we

935
00:32:27,597 --> 00:32:29,502
got on, I really wanna make sure we

936
00:32:29,502 --> 00:32:30,454
have time to talk about.

937
00:32:31,407 --> 00:32:33,232
So let me set this up and say

938
00:32:33,232 --> 00:32:34,915
that at the beginning of your book, you

939
00:32:34,915 --> 00:32:36,902
make it really clear that we're not very

940
00:32:36,902 --> 00:32:39,682
effective at reading people. And don't I say

941
00:32:39,682 --> 00:32:42,713
reading people. But you know, sort of omniscient

942
00:32:42,713 --> 00:32:44,617
looking into people's minds and hearts and saying,

943
00:32:44,776 --> 00:32:46,679
I know what they're thinking. I know what

944
00:32:46,679 --> 00:32:48,680
they're gonna do next. Like, you make it

945
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:50,668
clear that we're pretty bad at that.

946
00:32:51,623 --> 00:32:52,123
Nevertheless,

947
00:32:52,577 --> 00:32:54,668
you also indicate that

948
00:32:55,058 --> 00:32:55,797
in this

949
00:32:56,252 --> 00:32:59,197
emphasis on listening to people, more specifically,

950
00:32:59,993 --> 00:33:02,381
understanding that when people speak, they're expressing, not

951
00:33:02,381 --> 00:33:04,053
just their words, but their emotions.

952
00:33:04,864 --> 00:33:06,243
I love that. So

953
00:33:06,622 --> 00:33:09,439
let's discuss how managers can cultivate that ability

954
00:33:09,658 --> 00:33:12,948
here what's not being verbally said, but is

955
00:33:12,948 --> 00:33:15,181
nevertheless less being spoken in their behavior. Yeah.

956
00:33:15,580 --> 00:33:18,052
So this part of the listening to learn

957
00:33:18,052 --> 00:33:20,683
practice really draws from a mentor of my

958
00:33:20,683 --> 00:33:21,561
named, David Kent.

959
00:33:22,134 --> 00:33:24,295
Who was 1 of the pioneers or the

960
00:33:24,295 --> 00:33:27,575
family systems therapy, kind of movement. You know,

961
00:33:27,735 --> 00:33:29,815
he would spend hundreds if not thousands of

962
00:33:29,815 --> 00:33:32,229
hours with families watching them fight. And 1

963
00:33:32,229 --> 00:33:33,667
of the things that he noticed that is

964
00:33:33,667 --> 00:33:35,025
that where they missed each other is that

965
00:33:35,025 --> 00:33:37,661
1 person was trying to communicate content or

966
00:33:37,661 --> 00:33:39,827
information. He called it meaning, while somebody else

967
00:33:39,827 --> 00:33:41,969
was listening through emotions or conveying emotions or

968
00:33:41,969 --> 00:33:43,397
vice versa first and someone else is operating

969
00:33:43,397 --> 00:33:44,746
in what he called power, which is really

970
00:33:44,746 --> 00:33:45,698
about the domain of action.

971
00:33:46,349 --> 00:33:48,750
And so when it comes to listening and

972
00:33:48,750 --> 00:33:51,149
learning from other people, we've gotta be able

973
00:33:51,149 --> 00:33:53,204
to listen through these 3 channels. And I've

974
00:33:53,324 --> 00:33:56,836
translated his academic language into simply content emotion

975
00:33:56,836 --> 00:33:57,394
and action.

976
00:33:58,192 --> 00:34:00,347
Anytime we're sitting down with someone, Those 3

977
00:34:00,347 --> 00:34:02,200
things are going on. Just the same way,

978
00:34:02,519 --> 00:34:04,440
anytime we're listening to a piece of music,

979
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,980
there's is usually per happening and vocals happening

980
00:34:08,119 --> 00:34:09,159
and harmony happening.

981
00:34:09,653 --> 00:34:11,557
And if we train ourselves to listen to

982
00:34:11,557 --> 00:34:14,097
all 3 of those things, Per locals, Harmony,

983
00:34:14,176 --> 00:34:16,001
we have a much richer understanding of that

984
00:34:16,001 --> 00:34:16,477
piece of music,

985
00:34:17,048 --> 00:34:19,123
Similarly, if we can train ourselves to listen

986
00:34:19,123 --> 00:34:19,760
for content,

987
00:34:20,558 --> 00:34:23,190
emotion and actions going on, we will have

988
00:34:23,190 --> 00:34:25,583
a much richer, more complex understanding of what

989
00:34:25,583 --> 00:34:26,561
someone's actually

990
00:34:27,114 --> 00:34:29,111
communicating to us. And if we 0 in

991
00:34:29,111 --> 00:34:30,629
on the emotion piece just for a second

992
00:34:30,629 --> 00:34:32,807
because I think that's where we started. Sometimes

993
00:34:32,866 --> 00:34:35,034
people are literally just expressing the emotion when

994
00:34:35,034 --> 00:34:36,465
they're say, I'm really frustrated that you didn't

995
00:34:36,465 --> 00:34:38,055
do this this and this this, and, you

996
00:34:38,055 --> 00:34:39,327
know, we can either listen for that with

997
00:34:39,327 --> 00:34:40,599
they're expressing there or we can focus back

998
00:34:40,599 --> 00:34:41,871
on the facts of the matter or whatever.

999
00:34:42,364 --> 00:34:44,832
And so part of listening for emotion is

1000
00:34:44,832 --> 00:34:46,902
just literally queuing ourselves in to say, wait

1001
00:34:46,902 --> 00:34:48,097
a minute. They just name it emotion that

1002
00:34:48,097 --> 00:34:50,087
they're having. They just express something that they're

1003
00:34:50,087 --> 00:34:52,180
feeling. Let's focus on on that because sometimes

1004
00:34:52,180 --> 00:34:54,420
that's the most important thing. But sometimes people

1005
00:34:54,420 --> 00:34:57,140
are displaying emotion as well. Maybe they're frown.

1006
00:34:57,460 --> 00:34:59,653
Maybe they've got their arms across Maybe their

1007
00:34:59,712 --> 00:35:01,307
is fur owned. Maybe they're crying. Who knows

1008
00:35:01,307 --> 00:35:03,221
what it might be. And that's a place

1009
00:35:03,221 --> 00:35:04,896
where we can see what they're displaying. I

1010
00:35:04,896 --> 00:35:06,651
think this is the place where it can

1011
00:35:06,651 --> 00:35:09,058
be sometimes easy for us to say, oh,

1012
00:35:09,456 --> 00:35:11,607
they're frown. That must mean they're angry at

1013
00:35:11,607 --> 00:35:13,280
me, and that inference may or may not

1014
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,192
be right. As opposed to saying, oh, they're

1015
00:35:15,192 --> 00:35:17,502
frown. Something's going on. Let me take note

1016
00:35:17,502 --> 00:35:19,265
of that. And maybe even let me ask

1017
00:35:19,265 --> 00:35:20,718
them say, hey, I'm noticing a.

1018
00:35:21,646 --> 00:35:23,710
That's the whole point. What what's going on

1019
00:35:23,710 --> 00:35:25,218
of them. And you and I talked about

1020
00:35:25,218 --> 00:35:27,309
how you and other people's startups can actually

1021
00:35:27,309 --> 00:35:29,150
sense things off of people. And I think

1022
00:35:29,150 --> 00:35:31,630
that's incredible. And if you're not sure of

1023
00:35:31,630 --> 00:35:32,829
what you're sensing off of people, you can

1024
00:35:32,829 --> 00:35:34,269
say, hey look I just noticed your energy

1025
00:35:34,269 --> 00:35:36,113
change. And, you know, did it. And if

1026
00:35:36,113 --> 00:35:37,541
so what's behind that what's going on for

1027
00:35:37,541 --> 00:35:39,683
you. And so there are ways that we

1028
00:35:39,683 --> 00:35:42,619
can be listening by observing what is being

1029
00:35:42,619 --> 00:35:45,182
displayed. But then not just calculated privately in

1030
00:35:45,182 --> 00:35:46,856
our heads, but actually ask questions to check

1031
00:35:46,856 --> 00:35:48,530
it on the other person too. That's great.

1032
00:35:49,088 --> 00:35:51,262
Our world right now is so polarized

1033
00:35:51,574 --> 00:35:52,449
at least in America.

1034
00:35:53,005 --> 00:35:54,754
And particularly now that we're in this election

1035
00:35:54,754 --> 00:35:56,901
year. Yep. You, it's Team a or Team

1036
00:35:56,901 --> 00:35:58,889
b, and, you know, we're not talking to

1037
00:35:58,968 --> 00:36:00,717
Team b and 4 on Teammate and so

1038
00:36:00,717 --> 00:36:02,720
forth. Yeah. You made this point in the

1039
00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:05,264
book that people tend to like people like

1040
00:36:05,264 --> 00:36:08,286
themselves and therefore weeks surround ourselves when people

1041
00:36:08,286 --> 00:36:08,922
like ourselves,

1042
00:36:09,893 --> 00:36:10,393
and

1043
00:36:10,850 --> 00:36:13,163
people who think like we do. And just

1044
00:36:13,163 --> 00:36:14,678
like when I was reading, and I'm thinking

1045
00:36:14,678 --> 00:36:16,672
how corrupt is that. Or, like, you've gotta

1046
00:36:16,672 --> 00:36:18,347
get to a point where you're understanding what

1047
00:36:18,347 --> 00:36:20,112
other people are thinking and be able to

1048
00:36:20,112 --> 00:36:22,650
be tolerant of it. So tell us why

1049
00:36:22,650 --> 00:36:24,949
our curiosity should extend it to people who

1050
00:36:24,949 --> 00:36:26,956
have different beliefs and perspectives

1051
00:36:27,423 --> 00:36:29,806
and cultures. And from your point of view,

1052
00:36:30,361 --> 00:36:32,188
what's the value in that? I think there's

1053
00:36:32,188 --> 00:36:33,458
a few things. I mean, I think 1

1054
00:36:33,458 --> 00:36:34,887
is life is a lot more interesting that

1055
00:36:34,887 --> 00:36:37,294
way. If we just surround ourselves with people

1056
00:36:37,294 --> 00:36:39,369
who are gonna tell us to believe the

1057
00:36:39,369 --> 00:36:40,964
same things that we believe, whether that's all

1058
00:36:40,964 --> 00:36:42,581
around politics or

1059
00:36:43,134 --> 00:36:44,113
religion or

1060
00:36:44,492 --> 00:36:46,010
supreme court issues or whatever it may be,

1061
00:36:46,409 --> 00:36:47,927
You know, maybe we'll feel good about ourselves,

1062
00:36:48,167 --> 00:36:50,177
but that's not actually that interesting. To me,

1063
00:36:50,257 --> 00:36:52,009
it's much more interesting to say, wow, there's

1064
00:36:52,009 --> 00:36:53,682
that a whole range of different ways to

1065
00:36:53,682 --> 00:36:55,115
look at what's going on here, you know,

1066
00:36:55,434 --> 00:36:57,186
how fascinating. That's part of it. I think

1067
00:36:57,186 --> 00:36:58,675
the second reason is

1068
00:36:59,033 --> 00:37:00,707
that usually we get to a better answer.

1069
00:37:01,026 --> 00:37:03,657
If we actually surround ourselves with a diverse

1070
00:37:03,657 --> 00:37:06,980
set of ideas, backgrounds perspectives interests because there's,

1071
00:37:07,496 --> 00:37:08,690
everybody's got a piece of the puzzle in

1072
00:37:08,690 --> 00:37:10,360
some way. And if we only just surround

1073
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:11,474
ourselves with our 1 piece of the puzzle,

1074
00:37:11,792 --> 00:37:12,905
we're not gonna see the whole. We're not

1075
00:37:12,905 --> 00:37:14,514
gonna get the best answer. As well. But

1076
00:37:14,594 --> 00:37:16,272
I also think that if we care about

1077
00:37:16,272 --> 00:37:18,510
the future of our society, and we want

1078
00:37:18,510 --> 00:37:20,907
our society not to fracture, but to actually

1079
00:37:20,907 --> 00:37:23,065
be strong and to be a true community,

1080
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:25,475
then we've gotta be part of the solution,

1081
00:37:25,874 --> 00:37:27,630
and that means not just keeping ourselves in

1082
00:37:27,630 --> 00:37:30,425
our bubble, but actually doing the scary work

1083
00:37:30,425 --> 00:37:32,021
of Richie across and say, hey, Let's have

1084
00:37:32,021 --> 00:37:33,867
a meal together. Hey. I'd love to pick

1085
00:37:33,867 --> 00:37:34,821
your brand. I'd love to hear how you

1086
00:37:34,821 --> 00:37:36,251
think about this kind of thing. So I

1087
00:37:36,251 --> 00:37:37,920
think for all of those reasons, there's a

1088
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:39,986
real benefit to extend our curiosity to people

1089
00:37:39,986 --> 00:37:41,496
who are, quote different from us in some

1090
00:37:41,496 --> 00:37:42,869
way. Not to put you on the spot,

1091
00:37:43,030 --> 00:37:44,869
but have you done that recently? Click, can

1092
00:37:44,869 --> 00:37:47,030
you give us an example of where you've

1093
00:37:47,030 --> 00:37:49,364
stuck your neck out did that intentionally? Yeah.

1094
00:37:49,603 --> 00:37:51,995
I mean, I... So I was taking a,

1095
00:37:52,154 --> 00:37:54,546
you know, rides share for about a 45

1096
00:37:54,546 --> 00:37:57,655
minute ride. And when the car pulled up,

1097
00:37:58,465 --> 00:38:01,347
the driver had a bumper sticker

1098
00:38:01,720 --> 00:38:04,577
and a hat that had a symbol on

1099
00:38:04,577 --> 00:38:05,792
it that I vehemently

1100
00:38:06,324 --> 00:38:07,693
disagreed with. Or at least I thought I

1101
00:38:07,693 --> 00:38:09,291
did. And it made me feel totally unsafe,

1102
00:38:09,771 --> 00:38:11,449
even being in that person's car given my

1103
00:38:11,449 --> 00:38:13,526
own background on my own identity. And I

1104
00:38:13,526 --> 00:38:14,585
spent the first

1105
00:38:15,059 --> 00:38:17,684
few minutes in the car, just looking down,

1106
00:38:18,081 --> 00:38:19,752
doing my email, doing the thing that would

1107
00:38:19,752 --> 00:38:21,502
be super safe to do. And then I

1108
00:38:21,502 --> 00:38:22,866
realized so myself. You know what? Let me

1109
00:38:22,866 --> 00:38:24,531
just try to practice what I appreciate. And

1110
00:38:24,531 --> 00:38:25,721
just sent to the person hey, well, you

1111
00:38:25,721 --> 00:38:27,148
know, tell me what's the story behind that

1112
00:38:27,148 --> 00:38:28,099
you know the hat that you have there.

1113
00:38:28,258 --> 00:38:29,448
What's, you know, what what is that about?

1114
00:38:30,019 --> 00:38:30,974
And Lo and be behold hope for the

1115
00:38:30,974 --> 00:38:33,284
next 45 minutes. He shared with me his

1116
00:38:33,284 --> 00:38:35,594
life story, which, you know, started back to

1117
00:38:35,594 --> 00:38:38,302
his own childhood and personal sacrifices that he

1118
00:38:38,302 --> 00:38:40,471
had made and his cousins had made. Some

1119
00:38:40,471 --> 00:38:42,706
things that I was incredibly sympathetic to once

1120
00:38:42,706 --> 00:38:44,462
he shared with me. To the point that

1121
00:38:44,462 --> 00:38:46,536
literally, it didn't make me wanna go waive

1122
00:38:46,536 --> 00:38:48,545
that flag. But it got me pretty close

1123
00:38:48,545 --> 00:38:50,936
to saying, wow, I really appreciate where this

1124
00:38:50,936 --> 00:38:52,689
person is coming from and it certainly led

1125
00:38:52,689 --> 00:38:54,783
me to say, I don't not know anything

1126
00:38:54,841 --> 00:38:56,765
about. Really what's going on when someone has

1127
00:38:56,765 --> 00:38:58,197
that flag in their yard or on their

1128
00:38:58,197 --> 00:39:00,026
car or that kind of thing, And, you

1129
00:39:00,026 --> 00:39:02,252
know, it was very humbling. But I also

1130
00:39:02,252 --> 00:39:04,001
felt much closer to somebody that I would

1131
00:39:04,001 --> 00:39:07,125
have almost d tested beforehand. That's, I'm so

1132
00:39:07,125 --> 00:39:08,483
glad I asked you the question because it's

1133
00:39:08,483 --> 00:39:09,142
a brilliant

1134
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:09,920
illustration.

1135
00:39:10,558 --> 00:39:13,193
And it applies to leadership too. Right? We

1136
00:39:13,193 --> 00:39:15,681
work with people and people that we don't

1137
00:39:15,681 --> 00:39:17,594
have a lot of interaction with, for example,

1138
00:39:17,753 --> 00:39:19,427
you know, people are in different departments or

1139
00:39:19,427 --> 00:39:21,898
different areas, but they're impacting us, and we

1140
00:39:21,898 --> 00:39:23,744
make assumptions about who they are and how

1141
00:39:23,744 --> 00:39:26,767
they carry themselves that influence us in a,

1142
00:39:26,926 --> 00:39:29,313
like, really meaningful way. Everything your book is

1143
00:39:29,313 --> 00:39:31,637
about, who and sometimes you can't ask those

1144
00:39:31,637 --> 00:39:33,470
people, but when you have an opportunity to

1145
00:39:33,470 --> 00:39:34,984
say, hey, you know, tell me how you...

1146
00:39:35,382 --> 00:39:37,135
How do these ideas form you,

1147
00:39:37,948 --> 00:39:40,818
doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to wear

1148
00:39:40,818 --> 00:39:42,652
the hat, if you will. Yeah. Great. But

1149
00:39:42,652 --> 00:39:44,907
it does mean that you're gonna have greater

1150
00:39:45,284 --> 00:39:47,530
appreciation for how they got there. Yeah. You

1151
00:39:47,530 --> 00:39:49,540
still might not agree. But at least you

1152
00:39:49,597 --> 00:39:52,061
understand, like, you understand that wow, there's a

1153
00:39:52,061 --> 00:39:54,049
process, and it's not just a knee jerk

1154
00:39:54,049 --> 00:39:56,380
thing. Like, like, people are vested in this

1155
00:39:56,380 --> 00:39:58,860
for a reasonable hundred percent degree. And sometimes

1156
00:39:58,860 --> 00:40:00,619
that's, like, you know, I can do better

1157
00:40:00,619 --> 00:40:02,539
to educate people so that they have an

1158
00:40:02,539 --> 00:40:04,545
understanding of you know, of a different perspective.

1159
00:40:04,784 --> 00:40:06,851
Very well said. He'll be you're the 1

1160
00:40:06,851 --> 00:40:09,871
who's saying everything's so articulate. But good good

1161
00:40:09,871 --> 00:40:11,619
as a good sympathy expenses and I also

1162
00:40:11,619 --> 00:40:12,389
think that you

1163
00:40:12,827 --> 00:40:14,500
almost inevitably you're gonna find some kind of

1164
00:40:14,500 --> 00:40:16,412
common ground. You're gonna find something in their

1165
00:40:16,412 --> 00:40:18,085
humanity that you can connect to in your

1166
00:40:18,085 --> 00:40:20,793
own humanity, and that distance just gets closed

1167
00:40:20,793 --> 00:40:21,191
a little bit.

1168
00:40:21,844 --> 00:40:23,444
I have... And I don't know where this

1169
00:40:23,444 --> 00:40:25,925
came from, you know, what motivated this, but

1170
00:40:26,164 --> 00:40:28,244
I have wherever I go. If I'm in

1171
00:40:28,244 --> 00:40:30,565
an uber, I'm having a conversation with the

1172
00:40:30,565 --> 00:40:33,377
driver. Yep. And generally, I don't have any

1173
00:40:33,377 --> 00:40:35,695
interest in their political views. I have interest

1174
00:40:35,695 --> 00:40:38,012
in where they're from and what's their journey.

1175
00:40:38,252 --> 00:40:40,741
Mh. And some of the stories people tell

1176
00:40:40,741 --> 00:40:43,550
are just so inspiring. And you you realize

1177
00:40:43,607 --> 00:40:43,846
like,

1178
00:40:44,483 --> 00:40:46,951
if they'd had, you know, 1 advantage, they

1179
00:40:46,951 --> 00:40:49,196
wouldn't be driving an Uber. You know, they're

1180
00:40:49,196 --> 00:40:52,306
super smart, super caring, super kind,

1181
00:40:52,784 --> 00:40:54,379
you know, super talented,

1182
00:40:54,937 --> 00:40:55,437
and

1183
00:40:55,814 --> 00:40:58,701
I learned from them, And so, like, and

1184
00:40:58,701 --> 00:41:01,914
find... Sometimes it's like, there's common denominators where,

1185
00:41:02,132 --> 00:41:04,447
you know, realize that they know somebody that

1186
00:41:04,447 --> 00:41:07,014
you know or... Have had experience that you've

1187
00:41:07,014 --> 00:41:10,360
had. It's an enriching experience. So, like, I

1188
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:12,512
might spend 5 minutes just looking at my

1189
00:41:12,512 --> 00:41:15,244
emails but I generally will just tell the

1190
00:41:15,244 --> 00:41:17,324
guy, hey, you know, it's got a conversation

1191
00:41:17,324 --> 00:41:19,964
here, and they're always grateful for it too

1192
00:41:19,964 --> 00:41:21,733
because most... People don't do that. They come

1193
00:41:21,733 --> 00:41:23,324
in and they just wanna do their work

1194
00:41:23,324 --> 00:41:25,791
and stay quiet and, you know, do whatever

1195
00:41:25,791 --> 00:41:27,302
it is that they they think is gonna

1196
00:41:27,302 --> 00:41:29,690
make them efficient. But I've always felt that

1197
00:41:29,690 --> 00:41:31,619
people that was 1 of the coolest things

1198
00:41:31,619 --> 00:41:33,612
that I could do is to learn something

1199
00:41:33,612 --> 00:41:36,641
about people on people's cultures, people's views. Do

1200
00:41:36,641 --> 00:41:38,635
you do that beyond what you just described?

1201
00:41:39,127 --> 00:41:40,555
I... Any any chance out yet, I do

1202
00:41:40,555 --> 00:41:41,983
it And and I think people as you

1203
00:41:41,983 --> 00:41:44,840
said, are... Usually appreciate being asked, they're happy

1204
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:45,871
to share. And

1205
00:41:46,284 --> 00:41:49,324
There's something fascinating. There's always something fascinating to

1206
00:41:49,324 --> 00:41:51,164
learn from every single person. And so it's

1207
00:41:51,164 --> 00:41:52,204
it is an honor to be able to

1208
00:41:52,204 --> 00:41:52,445
do that.

1209
00:41:53,164 --> 00:41:55,577
Speaking of that, you know, some managers will

1210
00:41:55,577 --> 00:41:57,515
think, I'm changing gears slightly

1211
00:41:58,134 --> 00:42:00,131
that when you go up to the an

1212
00:42:00,131 --> 00:42:02,537
employee and say, you know, I really need

1213
00:42:02,537 --> 00:42:04,206
your help on a problem I'm solving.

1214
00:42:04,762 --> 00:42:07,543
That that implies leadership weakness. Like, you know,

1215
00:42:07,702 --> 00:42:09,870
like you can't figure it out yourself or

1216
00:42:10,418 --> 00:42:12,726
That I should be making these decisions I'm

1217
00:42:12,726 --> 00:42:14,637
the boss, kind of a thing. What would

1218
00:42:14,637 --> 00:42:17,581
you say to offset that kind of thinking.

1219
00:42:18,154 --> 00:42:20,464
I think that that is a an understandable

1220
00:42:20,464 --> 00:42:22,694
but outdated archetype of what it means to

1221
00:42:22,694 --> 00:42:24,925
be a leader. If your archetype is that

1222
00:42:24,925 --> 00:42:26,199
the leader has to be the 1 that

1223
00:42:26,199 --> 00:42:28,367
has all the answers. And it solves all

1224
00:42:28,367 --> 00:42:30,839
the problems for your team, you're missing out

1225
00:42:30,839 --> 00:42:32,913
on the collective genius. That's all around you

1226
00:42:32,913 --> 00:42:34,987
in your organization. And so I I would

1227
00:42:34,987 --> 00:42:36,263
encourage you to flip it and say the

1228
00:42:36,263 --> 00:42:38,193
role of the leader is to create the

1229
00:42:38,193 --> 00:42:40,507
conditions where that genius can emerge. And so

1230
00:42:40,507 --> 00:42:41,784
if you're saying to someone else, what are

1231
00:42:41,784 --> 00:42:43,859
your ideas, that's part of, I think the

1232
00:42:43,859 --> 00:42:45,989
highest form of leadership. All said

1233
00:42:46,425 --> 00:42:48,724
I hope you don't mind, but you... Somewhere

1234
00:42:48,724 --> 00:42:50,784
in your book, I realized like you've got

1235
00:42:50,943 --> 00:42:53,242
Altered Ego or at least a site job,

1236
00:42:54,053 --> 00:42:56,286
that's really impressive to me. And so, like,

1237
00:42:56,605 --> 00:42:58,440
outside of writing your book, a big portion

1238
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:00,753
of your life is dedicated to reinventing how

1239
00:43:00,753 --> 00:43:03,225
we educate children and elementary schools.

1240
00:43:04,114 --> 00:43:06,414
And I just thought I can't let that

1241
00:43:06,414 --> 00:43:09,190
go without asking you, is there something in

1242
00:43:09,190 --> 00:43:11,332
what you've word in education that may be

1243
00:43:11,332 --> 00:43:14,447
agreed value to our leadership focused audience? Like,

1244
00:43:14,606 --> 00:43:15,561
is there a crossover?

1245
00:43:16,038 --> 00:43:17,867
Absolutely. I appreciate you mentioning that. So in

1246
00:43:17,867 --> 00:43:20,037
my day job I c Ceo of an

1247
00:43:20,094 --> 00:43:20,968
organization called Transcend.

1248
00:43:21,445 --> 00:43:24,720
That and we are a non profit organization

1249
00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:26,708
that works with k 12 schools across the

1250
00:43:26,708 --> 00:43:29,491
country who wanna reimagine what's possible in education.

1251
00:43:29,984 --> 00:43:31,500
There's so many parallels. And for me, the

1252
00:43:31,500 --> 00:43:33,255
common thread is just is the learning that

1253
00:43:33,255 --> 00:43:34,851
we can do in all kinds of situations.

1254
00:43:35,170 --> 00:43:36,606
And 1 of the things I'll say is

1255
00:43:36,606 --> 00:43:40,137
that the true experts at questioning and curiosity

1256
00:43:40,272 --> 00:43:42,016
our kids. If you've ever been with a

1257
00:43:42,016 --> 00:43:43,364
3 year old, and you try to try

1258
00:43:43,364 --> 00:43:44,554
to walk down the street with a 3

1259
00:43:44,554 --> 00:43:46,872
year old, They're curious about everything from the

1260
00:43:46,872 --> 00:43:48,381
leaf that they see to the worm that's

1261
00:43:48,381 --> 00:43:49,891
crawling by, you know, to the crack of

1262
00:43:49,891 --> 00:43:51,956
the sidewalk. By the time kids are 4.

1263
00:43:52,449 --> 00:43:54,598
They're asking something like 400 questions a day.

1264
00:43:54,996 --> 00:43:56,748
And then we send them to schools, and

1265
00:43:56,748 --> 00:43:58,579
those schools basically say to them It's not

1266
00:43:58,579 --> 00:44:00,744
about questions is about compliance. It's about follow

1267
00:44:00,744 --> 00:44:02,265
our directions and give us the right answers.

1268
00:44:02,825 --> 00:44:04,985
And so in many ways, a lot of

1269
00:44:04,985 --> 00:44:06,025
what we're talking about here,

1270
00:44:06,585 --> 00:44:09,065
I think is undoing some of the things

1271
00:44:09,065 --> 00:44:10,379
that most schools

1272
00:44:10,833 --> 00:44:12,606
unintentionally do that suppress curiosity.

1273
00:44:12,981 --> 00:44:14,811
But I think the good news is that

1274
00:44:14,811 --> 00:44:16,402
we all have that reservoir on us. We

1275
00:44:16,402 --> 00:44:18,404
all ask least started off really curious and

1276
00:44:18,404 --> 00:44:19,835
we could tap back into that as well.

1277
00:44:20,313 --> 00:44:21,903
How are you doing that in schools or

1278
00:44:21,903 --> 00:44:24,606
how you encouraging teachers to be more receptive.

1279
00:44:24,845 --> 00:44:26,460
Julie Yeah. We use a process that's called

1280
00:44:26,460 --> 00:44:28,699
a community based design process. And so we

1281
00:44:28,699 --> 00:44:30,159
actually bring teachers together

1282
00:44:30,460 --> 00:44:31,279
with students

1283
00:44:31,739 --> 00:44:34,714
with parents. With administrators with employers with other

1284
00:44:34,714 --> 00:44:37,594
community members. And we actually start by saying,

1285
00:44:37,755 --> 00:44:39,594
let's listen to the young people. Let's listen

1286
00:44:39,594 --> 00:44:42,318
to them talk to us about what their

1287
00:44:42,318 --> 00:44:44,307
experience is like in school. Just the same

1288
00:44:44,307 --> 00:44:45,580
way that you might ask that of your

1289
00:44:45,659 --> 00:44:48,536
Uber driver or somebody else and when kids

1290
00:44:48,536 --> 00:44:50,544
tell us what lights them up, but also

1291
00:44:50,679 --> 00:44:53,776
what is completely boring or alien or hurtful

1292
00:44:53,776 --> 00:44:55,760
to them or whatever, we have shirts say

1293
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:56,078
to us.

1294
00:44:56,809 --> 00:44:58,565
I cannot hear that. And by the way,

1295
00:44:58,724 --> 00:45:00,161
I've been you for 20 years. I've never

1296
00:45:00,161 --> 00:45:02,235
sat down for 45 minutes and just listen

1297
00:45:02,235 --> 00:45:03,671
to a student tell me about their experience

1298
00:45:03,671 --> 00:45:03,991
in school.

1299
00:45:04,644 --> 00:45:06,715
And so to me, the kids have the

1300
00:45:06,715 --> 00:45:08,706
answers. They know they know what they want.

1301
00:45:08,866 --> 00:45:10,698
They know what they need their experts and

1302
00:45:10,698 --> 00:45:11,494
their experiences.

1303
00:45:11,973 --> 00:45:14,378
And when we start in that place. There's

1304
00:45:14,378 --> 00:45:16,052
not a lot of other change management that's

1305
00:45:16,052 --> 00:45:17,727
needed People listen to that. And then when

1306
00:45:17,727 --> 00:45:19,242
we layer on, okay. Here's how the world

1307
00:45:19,242 --> 00:45:20,836
is changing. Here's how jobs are changing. We

1308
00:45:20,836 --> 00:45:23,083
don't actually need to be producing people. Who

1309
00:45:23,083 --> 00:45:24,591
are just answer givers or who we can

1310
00:45:24,591 --> 00:45:26,576
just follow directions. In fact, if we... If

1311
00:45:26,576 --> 00:45:28,561
those are the graduates that we produce, we're

1312
00:45:28,561 --> 00:45:29,831
not serving them because they're not gonna have

1313
00:45:29,831 --> 00:45:31,359
jobs anymore, we ask they need people who

1314
00:45:31,359 --> 00:45:33,356
are creative and collaborative and who are leaders.

1315
00:45:33,835 --> 00:45:35,114
And then we... Well we say well, alright.

1316
00:45:35,273 --> 00:45:36,791
If that's what we wanna produce, how we're

1317
00:45:36,791 --> 00:45:38,643
gonna get them to practice that, Do every

1318
00:45:38,643 --> 00:45:41,116
day of their schooling in k 12. All

1319
00:45:41,116 --> 00:45:42,711
of a sudden becomes very obvious. We gotta

1320
00:45:42,711 --> 00:45:43,429
do things differently.

1321
00:45:44,067 --> 00:45:46,938
Is part of that having the kids, the

1322
00:45:46,938 --> 00:45:48,077
children, and the students

1323
00:45:48,627 --> 00:45:51,253
sharing their own stories. A hundred percent. Yeah.

1324
00:45:51,571 --> 00:45:53,401
Not only sharing their own stories, We often

1325
00:45:53,401 --> 00:45:55,231
have people follow students around for a day

1326
00:45:55,231 --> 00:45:56,583
and say, let's just spend a day in

1327
00:45:56,583 --> 00:45:59,315
their shoes. And really experience with the experience

1328
00:45:59,315 --> 00:46:01,234
and nothing will change people's minds faster than

1329
00:46:01,234 --> 00:46:03,394
that. So I remember when I was a

1330
00:46:03,394 --> 00:46:05,849
kid, this story, I've never shared before, but

1331
00:46:06,050 --> 00:46:08,289
my mom died when I was 9. Mh.

1332
00:46:08,530 --> 00:46:09,030
And

1333
00:46:09,890 --> 00:46:12,210
before she passed away, She was very sick,

1334
00:46:12,369 --> 00:46:13,945
and it was the arrow where it was

1335
00:46:14,065 --> 00:46:16,405
cancer and it was really kind of un.

1336
00:46:16,785 --> 00:46:18,965
And so it was an extended

1337
00:46:19,505 --> 00:46:21,344
decline. And in that process,

1338
00:46:21,997 --> 00:46:24,622
I was shuttle from home to home no

1339
00:46:24,622 --> 00:46:26,293
was there to take care of me, it

1340
00:46:26,293 --> 00:46:27,168
was a real mess.

1341
00:46:28,043 --> 00:46:28,543
And

1342
00:46:28,998 --> 00:46:32,440
after my mom passed, away, my sister came

1343
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:33,877
into my room 1 day, and she gave

1344
00:46:33,877 --> 00:46:36,592
me something that my teacher had given my

1345
00:46:36,592 --> 00:46:36,911
mom.

1346
00:46:37,709 --> 00:46:39,545
She goes, would you like this? And I

1347
00:46:39,545 --> 00:46:40,000
said

1348
00:46:40,515 --> 00:46:42,340
what is it? And so I went to

1349
00:46:42,340 --> 00:46:44,561
a Catholic school. It was a religious statue,

1350
00:46:44,720 --> 00:46:46,307
and and I said, well where did you

1351
00:46:46,307 --> 00:46:48,132
get that? And she said, well, your teacher.

1352
00:46:48,943 --> 00:46:51,178
Came to see mom and gave it to

1353
00:46:51,178 --> 00:46:51,258
her.

1354
00:46:52,056 --> 00:46:53,892
And, you know, at 9 years old, all

1355
00:46:54,052 --> 00:46:56,447
I could think of was you knew about

1356
00:46:56,447 --> 00:46:57,186
my mom

1357
00:46:57,737 --> 00:46:59,590
being sick and didn't

1358
00:47:00,284 --> 00:47:02,671
demonstrate that to me and I'll never forget.

1359
00:47:02,910 --> 00:47:04,683
Like, had you known

1360
00:47:04,994 --> 00:47:06,351
It would have been more important for you

1361
00:47:06,351 --> 00:47:09,305
of cared about what I was experiencing and

1362
00:47:09,305 --> 00:47:11,460
getting on different buses every day and never

1363
00:47:11,460 --> 00:47:13,297
knowing which homes you were gonna go to

1364
00:47:13,297 --> 00:47:15,789
is really a painful experience. And I just...

1365
00:47:15,949 --> 00:47:18,109
To this day, I'm thinking the teacher just

1366
00:47:18,109 --> 00:47:19,650
missed the whole boat

1367
00:47:19,949 --> 00:47:22,449
by not knowing what my experience was because

1368
00:47:22,762 --> 00:47:23,795
you meet me there,

1369
00:47:24,668 --> 00:47:26,732
I'm gonna work without taking care of that

1370
00:47:26,732 --> 00:47:28,875
basic need. I'm not gonna be able to

1371
00:47:28,875 --> 00:47:31,513
really do very well. And so I'd I

1372
00:47:31,513 --> 00:47:33,343
love if you just describe that. Thank you

1373
00:47:33,343 --> 00:47:34,775
for sharing that story by the way. That's

1374
00:47:34,775 --> 00:47:35,991
very moving. And

1375
00:47:36,366 --> 00:47:38,673
there's so much... I think that teachers could

1376
00:47:38,673 --> 00:47:38,992
learn.

1377
00:47:39,643 --> 00:47:42,297
About their students lives and experiences and backgrounds

1378
00:47:42,914 --> 00:47:44,748
just by asking those kinds of questions. 1

1379
00:47:44,748 --> 00:47:46,104
thing that some teachers do is they do

1380
00:47:46,104 --> 00:47:47,939
home visits, and they always talk about how

1381
00:47:47,939 --> 00:47:50,109
powerful those home visits are. Both in terms

1382
00:47:50,109 --> 00:47:51,707
of what they learned, but also how much

1383
00:47:51,707 --> 00:47:53,465
they demonstrate that caring to the family too.

1384
00:47:53,705 --> 00:47:55,463
That's fantastic. I don't know teachers are still

1385
00:47:55,463 --> 00:47:57,780
doing that, so that's great. 1 final question

1386
00:47:57,780 --> 00:47:59,252
on this John Hates

1387
00:47:59,707 --> 00:48:01,378
recommendation that takes cell phones out of school.

1388
00:48:01,536 --> 00:48:03,526
What do you what do you think? I'm

1389
00:48:03,526 --> 00:48:05,928
conflicted on it because cell phones have... So

1390
00:48:05,928 --> 00:48:08,955
many damaging effects on kids, especially social media.

1391
00:48:09,114 --> 00:48:10,947
I'm very cautious about it with my own

1392
00:48:10,947 --> 00:48:13,429
kids. At the same time, so phones are

1393
00:48:13,429 --> 00:48:15,732
a tool for learning as well. And so

1394
00:48:15,891 --> 00:48:17,717
I'm not in the camp of just ban

1395
00:48:17,717 --> 00:48:19,861
at all. I'm more in the camp of

1396
00:48:19,861 --> 00:48:21,528
there's times for it, and there's times not

1397
00:48:21,528 --> 00:48:23,213
for it. And went during the times for

1398
00:48:23,213 --> 00:48:24,645
it, Let's actually teach kids how to use

1399
00:48:24,645 --> 00:48:25,918
it as a tool, how to use it

1400
00:48:25,918 --> 00:48:27,987
responsibly, but that can be able to excel

1401
00:48:27,987 --> 00:48:28,942
into learning. Great.

1402
00:48:29,752 --> 00:48:31,106
Hey, Jeff. It's time for us to play

1403
00:48:31,106 --> 00:48:32,936
the heartbeat round where I'll ask you a

1404
00:48:32,936 --> 00:48:34,926
dozen or so personal questions that we hope

1405
00:48:34,926 --> 00:48:36,859
you'll answer quickly and instinctively.

1406
00:48:37,489 --> 00:48:38,768
Since you've listened to a few of our

1407
00:48:38,768 --> 00:48:41,485
podcast episodes. I think you're already familiar with

1408
00:48:41,485 --> 00:48:43,402
this, but are you willing to play yourself?

1409
00:48:43,722 --> 00:48:45,720
I'm am excited to play. Alright. There we

1410
00:48:45,720 --> 00:48:48,626
go. 1 piece of wisdom ronaldo you explicitly

1411
00:48:48,684 --> 00:48:51,336
gained while writing your book. Just how prevalent

1412
00:48:51,394 --> 00:48:53,545
it is that people withhold things from each

1413
00:48:53,545 --> 00:48:55,236
other. I'll just give you 1 small snippet

1414
00:48:55,236 --> 00:48:56,753
on this. I came across 1 study that

1415
00:48:56,753 --> 00:48:59,327
said between 60 and 80 percent of people

1416
00:48:59,546 --> 00:49:02,433
withhold important information from their own doctors. Just

1417
00:49:02,433 --> 00:49:04,106
imagine that if people are withholding things from

1418
00:49:04,106 --> 00:49:05,940
their own doctors that could benefit their own

1419
00:49:05,940 --> 00:49:07,932
health, life or death, what else are they

1420
00:49:07,932 --> 00:49:09,526
withholding? Your favorite question.

1421
00:49:10,098 --> 00:49:12,326
Why? The best teacher you had growing up

1422
00:49:12,326 --> 00:49:15,690
and why? Mister Ronald Perkins was my chemistry

1423
00:49:15,827 --> 00:49:18,452
teacher in tenth and eleventh grade in high

1424
00:49:18,452 --> 00:49:20,936
school. And he just ignited in me love,

1425
00:49:21,096 --> 00:49:22,530
not just of learning, but of teaching. He

1426
00:49:22,530 --> 00:49:24,442
used to take us out as high school

1427
00:49:24,442 --> 00:49:26,689
students to the local elementary schools, and we

1428
00:49:26,689 --> 00:49:28,527
would do hands on science, and I just

1429
00:49:28,527 --> 00:49:30,285
saw how the kids faces lit up when

1430
00:49:30,285 --> 00:49:32,842
they got to really just experience what learning

1431
00:49:32,842 --> 00:49:34,041
can be in science could be in such

1432
00:49:34,041 --> 00:49:36,288
a hands on the way. Great. Cultural value,

1433
00:49:36,447 --> 00:49:36,947
every

1434
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:37,955
organization should have.

1435
00:49:38,749 --> 00:49:41,131
So in my organization transcend, which I mentioned,

1436
00:49:41,608 --> 00:49:43,354
we have 2 core values that I just

1437
00:49:43,354 --> 00:49:44,307
love out of our 6.

1438
00:49:44,879 --> 00:49:46,953
1 is called perpetual beta, and that is

1439
00:49:46,953 --> 00:49:49,345
basically a value that says every 1 of

1440
00:49:49,345 --> 00:49:51,419
us is a work in progress. We're constantly

1441
00:49:51,419 --> 00:49:53,174
in beta mode, which means when we make

1442
00:49:53,174 --> 00:49:54,291
a mistake or we learn something,

1443
00:49:54,864 --> 00:49:56,941
actually living into our core value. And this

1444
00:49:56,941 --> 00:49:58,779
second 1 is just love. Putting people at

1445
00:49:58,779 --> 00:49:59,098
the center.

1446
00:50:00,856 --> 00:50:01,096
Great.

1447
00:50:01,815 --> 00:50:03,502
We're If you could teach every workplace leader

1448
00:50:03,502 --> 00:50:05,095
in the world, just 1 thing what would

1449
00:50:05,095 --> 00:50:07,007
it be? How to ask good questions.

1450
00:50:07,803 --> 00:50:09,714
Prediction about the future, your you're pretty certain

1451
00:50:09,714 --> 00:50:12,036
is gonna come true. This rate of change

1452
00:50:12,036 --> 00:50:14,419
is only going to increase. World's greatest is

1453
00:50:14,419 --> 00:50:15,452
problem needing fixing.

1454
00:50:16,246 --> 00:50:17,676
The divisions that we have in our lack

1455
00:50:17,676 --> 00:50:19,997
of ability to understand each other. Quality you

1456
00:50:19,997 --> 00:50:21,590
consider most essential to your success.

1457
00:50:22,706 --> 00:50:23,206
Curiosity.

1458
00:50:24,618 --> 00:50:26,370
I wish I had the plum bill right.

1459
00:50:29,173 --> 00:50:30,838
You're best sending him for the word heart.

1460
00:50:32,503 --> 00:50:32,899
Humanity.

1461
00:50:33,771 --> 00:50:35,832
A lesson you wish you'd learn much earlier

1462
00:50:35,832 --> 00:50:36,228
in life.

1463
00:50:37,990 --> 00:50:39,126
I don't know

1464
00:50:39,500 --> 00:50:41,725
my impact on other people, and it can

1465
00:50:41,725 --> 00:50:44,267
be profound positively or negatively, but I just

1466
00:50:44,267 --> 00:50:46,269
don't know enough about it. Sides love, what

1467
00:50:46,269 --> 00:50:48,337
does the world need more of? I'm gonna

1468
00:50:48,337 --> 00:50:49,315
say again, curiosity.

1469
00:50:49,768 --> 00:50:51,518
Greatest piece of advice you've ever received.

1470
00:50:52,472 --> 00:50:53,506
Do what you love?

1471
00:50:54,078 --> 00:50:56,066
Until you stopped loving it, then do the

1472
00:50:56,066 --> 00:50:58,293
next thing that you love until you stop

1473
00:50:58,293 --> 00:50:59,963
loving it and keep going and pretty soon

1474
00:50:59,963 --> 00:51:01,235
you look back on your life and you

1475
00:51:01,235 --> 00:51:03,223
will have loved your life. Oh, brilliant.

1476
00:51:03,954 --> 00:51:05,792
1 thing people be surprised to learn about

1477
00:51:05,792 --> 00:51:05,952
you.

1478
00:51:06,990 --> 00:51:09,707
I am an avid horseback rider. I love

1479
00:51:09,707 --> 00:51:11,385
riding horses. I try to get on a

1480
00:51:11,385 --> 00:51:13,550
horse. Anytime I can, and it's just something

1481
00:51:13,550 --> 00:51:15,380
that very few people. When I tell that

1482
00:51:15,380 --> 00:51:16,653
to people they'd say, I never would have

1483
00:51:16,653 --> 00:51:18,563
expected that. I wouldn't have expected that either,

1484
00:51:18,643 --> 00:51:20,791
but that's your colorado upbringing I take it.

1485
00:51:21,204 --> 00:51:24,155
That's exactly it. And your favorite hero of

1486
00:51:24,394 --> 00:51:27,904
Fiction. So I I love reading novels that

1487
00:51:27,904 --> 00:51:30,137
my daughter reads for school and we get

1488
00:51:30,137 --> 00:51:32,541
to talk about them. And I just finished

1489
00:51:32,541 --> 00:51:34,132
1 that she was reading this year called

1490
00:51:34,132 --> 00:51:36,201
all of my rage by Sa Ta.

1491
00:51:36,678 --> 00:51:39,382
And there is a girl in that novel

1492
00:51:39,382 --> 00:51:41,632
who is, essentially the protagonist or the hero

1493
00:51:41,632 --> 00:51:44,589
named Nora, and she's just incredibly inspiring and

1494
00:51:44,589 --> 00:51:47,386
the book is just unbelievable. That's fantastic. All

1495
00:51:47,386 --> 00:51:49,158
of these. These are really great. This was

1496
00:51:49,158 --> 00:51:50,913
fun. So thank you. And you did the

1497
00:51:50,913 --> 00:51:54,023
rather concise, So thank you. Good. Hey. I

1498
00:51:54,023 --> 00:51:56,257
love these questions. Alright. Before you go, we've

1499
00:51:56,257 --> 00:51:58,112
covered a whole lot of ground including

1500
00:51:59,065 --> 00:51:59,565
recreating

1501
00:51:59,864 --> 00:52:02,505
education here. So is there something in your

1502
00:52:02,505 --> 00:52:04,505
book that we didn't discuss? You did a

1503
00:52:04,505 --> 00:52:06,425
great job at the beginning and sort of

1504
00:52:06,425 --> 00:52:08,997
outlining your your 5 steps, But is there

1505
00:52:08,997 --> 00:52:11,389
something specific that we didn't cover or that

1506
00:52:11,389 --> 00:52:14,419
you wanna emphasize that that our audience can

1507
00:52:14,419 --> 00:52:17,210
be n over once our conversation is over.

1508
00:52:17,704 --> 00:52:18,900
Just say 1 thing. And I think you've

1509
00:52:18,900 --> 00:52:20,097
done a great job. I love your question.

1510
00:52:20,256 --> 00:52:21,452
So I feel like we've covered most of

1511
00:52:21,452 --> 00:52:23,526
it. But the thing I would just emphasize

1512
00:52:23,526 --> 00:52:26,318
or underscore is that this ability to learn

1513
00:52:26,318 --> 00:52:27,036
from other people.

1514
00:52:27,767 --> 00:52:29,754
Itself is a skill that's learn. This is

1515
00:52:29,754 --> 00:52:31,264
not something that some people are just good

1516
00:52:31,264 --> 00:52:32,854
at and other people are bad at. It's

1517
00:52:32,854 --> 00:52:33,990
a set of practices

1518
00:52:34,364 --> 00:52:36,192
that just like any other skill.

1519
00:52:37,323 --> 00:52:38,840
Individuals can get good at it. Teams can

1520
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:40,836
get good at, and organizations can get good

1521
00:52:40,836 --> 00:52:42,353
at it. And I think the rewards of

1522
00:52:42,353 --> 00:52:44,987
that are evident, but I wanna encourage people

1523
00:52:44,987 --> 00:52:46,837
to say this is a learn thing. Great.

1524
00:52:47,630 --> 00:52:50,567
You're an especially thoughtful person, Jeff, and I

1525
00:52:50,567 --> 00:52:52,234
just wanna call that out. I think my

1526
00:52:52,234 --> 00:52:54,034
audience has already picked up on that. But

1527
00:52:54,391 --> 00:52:56,215
It comes out loud and clear, and I

1528
00:52:56,532 --> 00:52:59,332
I really appreciate that. I admire that. And

1529
00:52:59,387 --> 00:53:01,211
so thank you. I means a lot. I

1530
00:53:01,211 --> 00:53:03,859
really appreciate that. And I sincerely appreciate you

1531
00:53:03,859 --> 00:53:06,019
joining me. This was even better than I

1532
00:53:06,019 --> 00:53:08,099
imagined it would be, and I'm always happy

1533
00:53:08,099 --> 00:53:09,780
when that happened. So thank you for doing

1534
00:53:09,780 --> 00:53:12,114
that. I'm really enjoy the conversation. Thank you

1535
00:53:12,114 --> 00:53:13,474
for the chance to be with you. Take

1536
00:53:13,474 --> 00:53:14,994
care. You too. Bye bye. Bye.

1537
00:53:21,479 --> 00:53:22,594
Before I take it by, I'd like to

1538
00:53:22,594 --> 00:53:23,493
make a heartfelt

1539
00:53:24,028 --> 00:53:26,976
request that you please introduce our podcast to

1540
00:53:26,976 --> 00:53:30,018
just 1 friend or colleague this week. Word

1541
00:53:30,018 --> 00:53:32,724
mount referrals as I've said before are so

1542
00:53:32,724 --> 00:53:35,192
incredibly powerful and the growth of our audience

1543
00:53:35,192 --> 00:53:37,436
is the single greatest metric that we used

1544
00:53:37,436 --> 00:53:40,461
to validate our impact, and we're sincerely trying

1545
00:53:40,461 --> 00:53:42,850
to change the world. At least how people

1546
00:53:42,850 --> 00:53:44,974
are managed and lead in our workplaces that

1547
00:53:45,331 --> 00:53:47,471
and we really need your support and helping

1548
00:53:47,471 --> 00:53:49,294
to broaden and deepen our reach.

1549
00:53:49,928 --> 00:53:52,172
Our brilliant theme music is the jazz classic

1550
00:53:52,226 --> 00:53:54,542
take He train written over 80 years ago

1551
00:53:54,542 --> 00:53:57,240
by Billy Strat horn. Our version is performed

1552
00:53:57,240 --> 00:53:59,327
by the Db Big band Orchestra.

1553
00:53:59,954 --> 00:54:02,352
Wanna thank my exceptional team, mister Ken Boy,

1554
00:54:02,512 --> 00:54:06,507
Carrie Finn Brandy Y anna Boy, and my

1555
00:54:06,507 --> 00:54:08,505
sound engineer producer, Erica oz.

1556
00:54:09,145 --> 00:54:10,994
And I also wanna thank all the employees

1557
00:54:10,994 --> 00:54:13,465
and managers at Chevron for supporting our work.

1558
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And finally, I leave you with my 2

1559
00:54:16,254 --> 00:54:18,581
consistent reminders. I wanna When you leave from

1560
00:54:18,581 --> 00:54:20,974
the heart, your people will follow and love

1561
00:54:20,974 --> 00:54:21,452
your people.

1562
00:54:22,170 --> 00:54:24,584
This is Mark Crowley thanking you for listening

1563
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and I'm signing off for now.