Welcome to lawyer business advantage. This podcast is
dedicated to helping attorneys earn more money
get better clients and spend more time with
family.
I'm your host, Ale
Y,
founder of Law firm success group.
Smart business guidance for small law firms begins
in 321.
It's my pleasure to welcome back to Lawyer
business advantage,
Sa Ro, the owner of Ro floss. Sasha.
How are you doing today? I'm doing great.
How are you? I'm doing great. It's great
to have you back in the show, and
we're talking about a topic that
near and dear to your heart and to
mine, which is if you're an introvert,
how on earth are you gonna bring in
business. Both of us are introverts and know
we may not appear that way. In our...
In the way that we market ourselves, but
we both need to recharge. What are some
of the challenges that you've experienced and that
you've seen other
experience, Saga when it comes to business development.
When I first started networking,
my limitation in this introvert felt debilitating.
So I
grew up in
part the middle East that is very, very
conservative and
told women and girls that it was virtuous
to be unseen and unheard. And I was
considered
quiet in that society standards.
So joining a networking organization starting to network
in lawyers circles
felt daunting.
And
I
developed type 1 diabetes
few years ago adult onset type 1 diabetes.
So my devices
that do my pancreas job made me feel
even more self conscious about
not working.
And Sasha, for those people who weren't feeling
familiar with what those alerts and things are.
Would you mind just giving us a quick
overview?
So
type 1 Diabetes means your pancreas
does not produce in insulin at all.
And you... I wear 2 devices. 1 measures
my blood sugar every 5 minutes,
and the other gives me insulin. The 1
that measures my blood sugar
alerts me when my blood sugar is going
too high or too low.
And so it would go off during the
networking meeting, and people would turn and look
at me, and that was,
maybe feel even more uncomfortable than I was,
it would go after during business lunches
as if I needed something to make my
networking even more difficult.
Wow. Oh my gosh. And that an introvert
when you're coming into these meetings, there's 30,
40 people in the room. When you first
started, how how would you how would you
feel when you did that? I would
hope that
nobody would approach me. I would just show
up as a sort of dreaded
obligation. I need to do this. I am
going to appear. Hopefully nobody talks to me.
I will just disappear into the sit in
the corner, hope nobody approaches me.
And 1 thing I will say is that
having
1 on ones with people,
helped
a lot because those
conversations really
made it easier once I got to know
people 1 in 1 to go back to
the next networking meeting.
It took a lot of effort
at first. Once I got the hang of
it, things were much easier.
Yeah. 1 of the things that I I
think about a lot. I don't know how
often I say it, but is that personal
growth happens outside of our comfort zones. And
the situation you were way outside of your
comfort zone. And so, I expect that it
sounds like it could be really terrifying. And
You know, what kept you in it? Like,
why didn't you just say, okay. Well, I
have to do this. I'm out of here.
But you hung in there? Why did you
hang in there?
I was tucked to, but I
stuck to it and decided to figure it
out and decided to challenge myself because I
needed
resources for my clients. So I wanted... And
this was during a tumultuous time and integration
loss so my client seated more resources, more
advisors than usual.
And I needed to connect them with all
types of attorneys and experts to help the
of their cases.
And as a practice owner, of course, referral
networking is for me, has been the most
effective form of business development.
So It felt like something I needed to
at the beginning door
until I figured it out and then found
my... The mode that works for me.
Another thing you mentioned is that you said
that the 1 on ones were good.
Like you really enjoyed that 1 on 1
interaction. And
for most of us who are introverted that
is where we thrive. And so if we
can just get past that initial
hump where we're dealing with all of this
social anxiety you know, all the energy that
we just wanna escape. If we can get
past that, build a couple connections and then
move very quickly as possible,
into, like, a 1 on 1 type of
conversation, we can really break through, and we
can have success. I was just interviewing Gary
Johnson, who you know.
And he was talking about how introverts are
actually very successful at networking or can be
because we listen really well.
We don't need to be talking all the
time. That was very insightful, and that all
makes sense provided we can get past that
that initial hump and start to connect with
people. So you're in the situation where, you
know, people are...
Where you're really thinking, you just don't wanna
be seen or notice or talk to.
Yet you know you have to keep showing
up. What was the change... What were some
changes that you made
to kinda move from where you were, which
was being
totally not really wanting to network to where
now, which is you're just absolutely unstoppable when
it comes to networking and you're everywhere.
So I read
Acts networking for people hate networking, and that
was a game changer, and they'll always be
grateful for her for writing that book.
And
I
force myself to implement
the theories in her book
among the top
suggestions is to,
before a networking event,
you gather your energy and
schedule time after networking event to
also I'll gather your energy,
and
she has tips on how to survive small
talk.
The the main thing for
that made
networking
doable for me is to focus on
giving.
So
I learned that
during the early few months of quarantine,
I learned about a
company that sends
glucose gel necklaces to type 1 diabetic front
my markers,
type 1 zinc to carry sugar on them
at all times,
and they were sending them for free. So
I was very touched by their generosity,
and I decided to speak publicly about my
type 1 diabetes, which I used to keep
a secret, in order to support this company.
So that same mindset transferred to a networking
context.
So
When I'm not working, I am seeking opportunities,
I'm listening for opportunities to support my colleagues,
whether that's for for all or finding them,
speaking opportunity or whatever kind of support they're
looking for, and then
that abundance mindset
that giving drive,
Boomerang and comes back to you in the
form of what you're looking for to build
your business. I love that. So you really
took the... In some ways, you took the
your own personal spotlight off of you and
put it on other people. Exactly You transferred,
you, that anxiety that you had. You said
it doesn't really matter. I'm not even gonna
think about my myself. I'm just gonna focus
on how it can help other people. Exactly.
And maybe you weren't dwelling on that as
much. And I love the idea about taking
some time to charge up for a meeting,
and then
batteries get depleted, charge up after the meeting
as well. Just out of curiosity, I love
to compare notes because you and I run
our share of networking meetings, which is incredibly
exhausting
about how much time do you take before
the meaning to charge up and about how
much time do you take after meaning to
recharge?
It depends on the extent of my involvement
in the in the meeting. So if I'm
just showing up,
then
now it takes just about half an hour,
afterwards,
not necessarily of doing something relaxing, but just...
I make sure that I don't have any
client meetings scheduled
in that half hour after a networking meeting.
And I usually schedule
networking
1 on ones in the afternoon.
So that in the morning, I and the
early afternoon and my
energy. My attention is focused just on my
legal work. And then if I'm running the
meeting myself, then I'll block off a couple
of hours afterwards,
during which it's merely impossible to get a
hold of me sort of a fire alarm.
That's cool. And we're very similar. So, you
know, if I'm in a meeting, but I'm
not running it, it's usually a couple of
hours afterwards.
But after I run a meeting, it's
really generally half a day, sometimes longer. And
I can tell, like, if I have to
do something in that down period, my energy
is definitely down, and I'm not at the
top of my game. So makes a lot
of sense and it's this really, really cool
suggestion to do it. I think most of
us who are introverted to do these kinds
of events naturally have to do that anyways.
Just kind of the the coping mechanism that
we have to do. So giving ourselves permission
to to do that
makes a ton of sense. I just out
of curiosity, You know why networking? You could've
have you could have done writing. You could
have done speaking. And actually, now they think
about it. You do those things as well.
And so
you know, as an introvert, how would you
compare and contrast the 3 forms of the
typical forms of business development, whether it's
networking,
writing slash social media
and speaking.
I surprised myself
when I started to
experiment with those kinds of business development. I
was...
I've been really surprised at the reactions I've
got when I've spoken,
I've been
surprised that the
reactions I've got when I posted on Linkedin,
And I've been
very surprised
stunned at the
results I've gotten in networking.
So it wasn't
necessarily a
deliberate
kind of let me do all these things
and see at 6. It was just sort
of a... Well this is what law firm
owners
tend to do to... So let me do
them. And
when I started to see results, I kept
engaging in all of them.
Very cool. And, yeah having a lot of
success with all 3.
Let's jump back to networking because I think
that's pretty much what we're talking about today.
And you moved from being a, a member
at large in this organization which is supervisors
to
a group leader, and you did that in
a relatively short period of time. So we'd
love to get the... Your... The insider perspective
from you on how this all actually happened.
It was
very unexpected.
I had
emailed the Bay Area's regional director, Ian Bur.
In 20 20, and I told him about
Book. And I said,
Fyi, if you have any numbers who are
struggling who are introverts who are I haven't
a hard time making the most out of
their membership. You should recommend this book for
them it really helped me.
And his response to that was I have
my sights on you to be the group
leader of San francisco 14.
And I I thought he was joking. I
thought he was... He had a member of
other candidates in mine, but sure enough he
sending me the offer formally, and I accepted,
and I was so
honored
by his choosing me that I worked really
hard. I really poured my heart soul to
book the group, and it's become very, very
successful. We've broke in a number of records
and info advisors
and
3 years into leadership, and sometimes I still
can't believe what I've accomplished.
Yeah. You're totally crushing it. Why do you
think ian thought of you?
I've asked him that question many times and
I'm still not a hundred percent clear, but
I've told
candidates that he's since approached for our leadership
of other groups.
If ian is seeing potential in you, then
you definitely have potential even if it don't
see in yourself.
I'm pretty sure he doesn't just
identify people who are
shy. Right? Who are not seen in the
group. So you were doing a number of
things
to at least increase your visibility.
Yes. Within pro profiles going back to that
time can you identify some of the things
that you were doing that maybe other members
we're not? I was
forcing myself to guest.
It took me a long time about 8
or 9 months into membership before I finally
be made myself do it. And this is
pre Covid, so it meant waking up 04:30
35 Am to
drive to
the side of the bay and fine parking
and all that.
And
I
went out of my way to do
really
memorable testimonials.
And
that is part of the
abundance mindset they're giving mentality
of really making
the person who refers you business making them
shining during the meeting.
And,
as
my friend, in San francisco 5 Matthew K
says when you shy and others it on
you.
I think that's part of what Ian, noticed.
He likes to tell the story that at
my very first supervisor meeting in 20 18.
He noticed that I wasn't in the room
and he
stepped outside into the hallway and found me
trembling and had to actually drag me into
the meeting.
So
I'm glad he
took that chance on Meeting and it's worked
at really well it's time.
Well, I I don't know how much of
a chance he took on you to be
honest. I mean, it sounds like,
he recognized how far you would come and
how much of an effort you had to
put in and didn't come naturally to you,
like it does is so many other people
who are networking, when you had to work
really the hard for it. And you didn't
just do the bare minimum, you were waking
up at 4 or 35 o'clock in the
morning to drive to places. You were,
you know, being present everywhere. You're
thinking of other people first and how you
could help them, and when someone would be
kind of enough to send you a referral,
you do a phenomenal job of thanking them.
That sounds like a model pro member a
model networking member to me,
and it's no surprise that you were on
the shortlist list for
running a group. Thank you. I think my...
The skills that I e sort of intrinsically
have and that I developed more as a
throughout my career an immigration lawyer, also came
in handy because
immigration, you have to be mindful of both
the very minor details as well as the
big picture.
So I
just sort of
automatically apply those skills to everything I do.
So improvise,
I'm very well organized very
every piece of data and my life goes
into a spreadsheet.
And so nothing's things organized like that means
that I don't miss the opportunity to give
somebody testimonial give me a referral. I don't
know things off the cracks, and then with
the goods that I won, it's also extremely
organized and very a lot of thoughts and
many thanks to my wonderful Ec for helping
me run a well mission. Yeah. It takes
the village. Isn't it.
But for all you know working folks that
are out there who are introverted and trying
to figure out how to make this work.
Massage laid out a great blueprint that worked
well for her. And if you have the
courage and 10
to execute it and the heart, it will
work well for you. But I think those
things are
important. You have to have the heart, Your
heart has to be in the right place
because networking working is about helping others and
as an introvert because you listen well, you
can do that better than most. That's number
1. Number 2, you have to have the
10 to do it. It means you're gonna
be out of your comfort zone a lot.
It will not be easy. It will be
exhaust thing, It does get easier with time,
but it'll still be exhausting. So just know
that you're you're doing that, and the price
at the end is worth it, It has
to be worth to you. And then you
have to have the courage to do it.
It's really easy to not do this or
to just do it in a half hearted
way and say, yeah, I put in the
hours and went to the meetings, but it's
not just working for me, and I'm not
gonna do it anymore. I'm gonna do other
things. That's the easy way out. The courage
is to, you know, embrace the fact that
Although this may not be easy for you
to do,
you can do it. And you can be
open about it, You can talk to people
about things that are holding you back and
people far it from people not respecting you
as a result. They're actually gonna hold you
in higher respect because
And say, my gosh, you're going through all
of this and you are still here?
Are you kidding me? I need a hole
with my head in a blanket if it
was me. So those are the things you
you can deploy if you wanna be really
good at networking. And and as an introvert,
you can be very successful at Sa and
I are both examples of that. And you
also want... There is a non capable
element of luck, so I was referring to
supervisors on named at you at a bar
association, holiday party,
and
you must have been the 1 who start
the conversation.
And then you referred me to supervisors under
the rest history, so that was my good
fortune to have prospects with you at that
point in time. Yeah. Well, mine too, for
sure. I'm glad about jump in this podcast
together, and we can chat. And I'm looking
forward to our next talk and I just
realized what it could be if you're up
for it.
Let's talk a little bit about social media
and Linkedin specifically as Introvert. How's does that
sound? No. Alright. So attorney Entrepreneurs, we will
see you next week Raj and I will
be back, and we are gonna talk about
Linkedin for introverts.
Sasha. Thank you so much for being on
V business advantage podcast podcasts today. Thank you,
Ali for every wonderful thing you've
introduced to my life.
My my pleasure of course, and my honor.
And if people wanna reach out to you,
what's the best way for them to do
that?
My website is SAR
dot law. My initials dot law.
Alright. Terrific. So As will see back here
in next week. And we'll see all of
you back here next week too. Thank you
very much. Thank you, Elaine.
If that's a wrap for this episode of
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My name is La Y.
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