We're gonna be discussing the idea of the
false binary.
What an illusion of choice does, it establishes
the baseline assumptions that nobody questions.
This is part of the fifth generation warfare
that we've talked about. Voting for the lesser
of two evils. Definitely an emotional, psychological
insane ideology
because you think you're winning. The role we
have is media. How do we help everybody
understand this is theater, and you need to
get back into the real world?
If you're opposed to the agenda, you should
oppose it regardless of who's selling it to
you.
Welcome back to another episode of the Independent
Media Alliance. We're here to discuss an important
topic, something Hakeem here personally has a very
big focus on entire his main focus as
of his work in general is around
finding ways to help us both fight using
tech to fight back against what's coming, but
also find ways to help protect yourself against
what's there. Yeah. And really just always been.
Like, before the technological advancements of the day,
you know, there's always been people that have
been trying to use the current status to
manipulate people around them. And I think, you
know, not even above and beyond the tech,
we talk a lot about just ways you
know, going back to the just vote with
your dollar, things like that. Like, finding ways
that we can just use our daily actions
to help, you know, align with our principles
and push back in what's what's building. And
so that's generally the topic today of how
we can use tech to fight back and
find ways to insulate ourselves. And and I'm
sure Akeem has a lot more to put
on that, so I'll go ahead and throw
it to you, Akeem, to start us off.
Thanks, Ryan. You know, tech has become an
issue that we can't ignore. In any freedom
lover, they might be doing all the right
things at home, growing their own food,
finding their own ways to educate themselves, pulling
their money out of the banks. All of
that is all great. But, unfortunately, we can't
ignore how technology has become an instrument
for the institution.
And so when major technology decisions happen, for
instance, the Google antitrust,
hearing this week, you really need to pay
attention
because
these big tech companies are are really important
to this, global agenda.
So one of the things I've been looking
at, is, digital ID.
And it's really interesting how
different parts of the world, whether it's the
the Western digital ID schemes or
even,
countries you might have not expected, like Mexico
and Pakistan,
how similarly
they are structured.
And they're all structured
to,
be able to say, hey. We didn't force
anyone into this,
but it's it's this thing that I'm calling
mandate by proxy
where they kind of pass the buck on
to,
the the important service providers, whether that's the
banks,
whether, that's the website that you would normally
access without error verification,
whether,
that's public services. And they pass the buck
on saying, hey. It's it's we're not gonna
force it on you. It's gonna be up
to these providers.
And so to have solutions and alternatives in
your technology is one of the most important
things you can do today. So I hope
we can dig into that, a little bit,
and I'm happy to share, solutions that I
have.
For anyone who doesn't know my work, I
I write about technology on my blog, takebackourtech.org.
And, I also have a privacy company called
Above where we make d googled phones,
Linux laptops, things are that are important. And,
we'll talk about today, like,
how understanding
how these systems work is is really important
to the solutions we use. But I don't
think anyone stranger,
is a stranger here to online privacy.
So I'm interested in in kinda what you
guys are are doing too to keep yourself
safe online.
Yeah. And it's a good place to, you
know, start in general. You know? I think
we all probably have different views. I mean,
not in the sense of what we're fighting
back against, but, like, ways you might use
certain things to push back on. And so
let's, you know, go ahead and jump around
here and and let, James and and Kit
kinda give their own perspectives on this. And
then, I guess, we can just get right
into, like, the most important ways that we
think we can use this. And I would
like to go into some of the things
you were talking about too, Akeem, like the
interesting overlap and even the the antitrust idea
and what that might mean going forward. But,
go ahead, James if you wanna start next.
Alright. Sure. Let me, let me frame this
in a way that's,
I'm just thinking off the top of my
head, but it occurs to me because I
just recently took a little trip to Malaysia,
which,
people will see why very soon because I'll
have a report coming out on that. But,
while I was there, I had an experience
that I've had a few times while traveling
in recent years, which is,
remembering that the rest of the world is
not like Japan.
And so how did this occur to me?
Well, first of all, the little issue of
the hotel breakfast that I was eating in
the morning,
and how do I pay for the hotel
breakfast? Well, of course, I have Malaysian ringgit.
I have literal cash.
So I'm just gonna go up and okay.
I'll pay for my breakfast now. Here's the
money.
Cash? Oh,
I think we can do that. And they
have to call someone over to get the
cash register and whatever. And, like, oh, yeah.
This this stuff. Yeah. Okay. You can have
some of this and blah blah. Okay. And
then the next morning, I go to get
the hotel breakfast again. I go to pay
for cash. This time, they won't do it
at all. They're like, nope. Sorry.
Cashless or nothing. I'm like, well, I don't
have a card, so I guess I'm eating
for free,
which they actually agreed with me. Okay. I
guess so.
You there's no way to pay. You have
these pieces of paper.
The next day, I decide, oh, you know
what? I'll do something else than this stupid
breakfast dance of the cashless thing. I I'm
just gonna go somewhere else outside the hotel.
I'm gonna get something else.
And go to the restaurant, sit down.
What's the first thing I see?
Look at the menu. Oh, okay. That looks
good. I'm gonna have that. Look around for
the waiter
until I realize, oh, there's the little QR
code on the table.
I'm gonna have to scan my order in
because I can't
flag down one of these people, these human
beings that are walking around the restaurant who
could take my order. No. No. No. You
gotta do it through the app on the
QR code thing.
But I'm in Malaysia. I don't have cell
service. I don't have WiFi in this particular
location. So I literally can't. I'm gonna have
to flag someone down.
So so I walk I'm like, okay. This
is stupid. I'm not gonna support this. I
walk out. I'm gonna I'm gonna support a
business that takes cash. So I walk into
some other cafe,
sit down to order something,
order my order, and then
how are you gonna pay? Cash? No. No.
No. It's cashless only. So so I start
to walk out. And the guy at the,
the counter is like, no. No. No. You
give me the cash, I'll pay for you.
And so he pays with his phone while
I can
this I've had this experience
in recent years when I travel because, hey,
I'm in Japan where cash is still mostly
relatively king and you can pay for cash
anywhere, anytime. And I'm forgetting that the rest
of the world is gradually becoming more and
more cashless. What does this mean?
We are moving from Hakeem, you will know
the term SAAS,
software as a service. I don't know how
you techie people say that. Is it SaaS?
Or SaaS. Know.
Sassy with it. SaaS.
We we are moving
to a world that is p p
a
a s.
Pat.
I I will have to come up with
a snappier term for that, but it's public
participation
as a service.
It's you have to be subscribed. You have
to have your cell service. You have to
have the smartphone. You have to have the
QR code. You have to have the digital
ID. You have to have the card in
order to
just participate in public life, in order to
just order your
goddamn breakfast. I mean, it's I don't know
how to say how utterly
I'm I'm glad that I have the experience
of being so
othered from this this cashless thing that's coming
into everybody's lives. Because when I do travel,
I see it from a complete outsider perspective.
It's not the little gradual boiling frog in
the pot
just getting a little bit warmer every no.
I jump right into the deep end and,
oh my god, I'm boiling alive. Somebody get
me out of here. And everybody else is
just going about their business as if this
is usual. This is not usual. And we
are giving up our right
to participate in everyday public life. Every time
we're scanning the code in order to, you
know, order a meal, every time we're using
that digital payment, we're giving up our ability
to participate without having those services. And that
to me is such a fundamental bedrock issue
that in a way, it goes beyond the
technology.
Of course, the technology exists and we can
find ways to use it to our advantage
or whatever, blah blah blah. But no, it's
the fact of the infrastructure itself that requires
that technological layer. I think we have to
start
screening and carving out the space to have
the non technological
life that I think we will need if
we do not want to move to the
past
system.
It really does speak to the core idea
of liberty in this context. And my, first
thing that jumps to my mind is, well,
there's exactly you know, vote with your dollar
except, oh, you can't, you know, because of
exactly that system, which I just think is
obvious. You know? I I have thoughts on
QR codes and plenty of stuff, but I'll
I'll throw it to Kit if, he wants
to give his thoughts before we jump around
first. Well, I mean,
I just wanted to share first just on
the caches thing. You've
you've probably all familiar with just how many
caches bad stories there are.
I saw the funniest one I've I've seen
in years. Just just earlier this week, somebody
sent it to me.
The fact that people aren't using coins anymore
means that fewer children are swallowing coins and
being in the emergency room. So cash in
society is really great. It's saving kids' lives.
Oh, thank god for this digital pay payment.
Yeah. And the cost of
In some ways, I would say regarding, like,
the whole public services subscription model QR codes
thing, we are
sort of gonna be in a position where
I think sort of it will be bad
and then it will get better because people
will people will still want to benefit themselves.
And people will point, you know, like, essentially,
what you could call black markets will emerge.
Businesses that will take cash will emerge because
there will be a market for it. So
you can sort of rely on self interest,
I think, to counter it
eventually.
But there will be a period where that
doesn't happen.
Regarding, like, my experience of it, which it's
not so bad in The UK yet.
The Cash Society is still we're we're at
the forefront,
you know, leading the way in many other
really quite terrible things, but you can still
pay with cash. And a lot of people
I've had a lot of experiences of taxis
and window cleaners and and tipping various people
at the end. They specifically asked for cash
for
fairly obvious reasons.
You know, you don't you don't pay tax
on on cash and so on.
So there is a a thriving cash thing
in The UK and I think even more
so in The US at the moment still.
But the the The UK is much worse
than the whole age verification thing. Obviously, it's
one of the main reasons we're here.
That is dreadful. And it was so
so signposted when the Australia brought it in
first. It was so obvious. Well, we're gonna
protect the kids by making sure nobody 16
has social media, which means everybody 16 has
to prove they're 16, obviously. Right. Nobody reported
that at the time.
Can I can I ask you a question
real quick for for actually, the well, I
think you're in a different place as well,
Akeem? In general, anybody outside The United States,
is it the same like, on on a
US bill, it says, you know, this is
legal tender, like any of the legal re
is that the same overlap in other countries?
Is it there are, like, a legal obligation
for businesses even though that tech even today,
that's not they don't nobody enforces that. But
technically speaking, they're supposed to be legally bound
to take it. Is that the same outside
of The United States?
Funnily enough,
I have no idea.
Well, I'm just I'm sorry. It's the pervasiveness
of your culture is that I'm more familiar
with that as an American idea than a
British idea. Which is crazy. Because I've seen
it in movies and stuff. Yeah. I know.
They are legally obliged to take 10 I
think there are,
there are laws about it. I think in
Scotland, which has
some sturdier financial laws about having to take
certain things as legal tender. I'm not sure
about England.
It's it's a good place to start this
conversation.
And, having been to Japan, I know James
is spoiled with the amazing cash machines that
smile and and and talk to you in
a nice voice, give you the exact change.
So, so cool. But, unfortunately,
this seems to be happening everywhere
in the world at at around the same
time, at around the 2027,
time frame.
And it's very interesting how,
these digital ID programs
are synced up. I would think that the
in person stuff is a little bit easier
to solve
in the sense that if the food vendor
down the street, the cafe down the street
is is requiring this crap, get up
and ask your friend to start a cafe,
find a cafe that accepts cash, and and
make that your place. Right? At least there's
a workaround
for, for a lot of things. I mean,
the Internet is is going to change at
large, and I've been looking into,
The UK,
gov ID system. And what a lot of
people don't see is that it's not just
the digital ID. There's this whole ecosystem around
it. For instance, UK gov has single sign
on. So if you go if you remember
visiting websites and and going to log in,
how they have these different providers, you can
sign them in with sign in with Gmail,
sign in with Instagram. Soon, it's gonna be
sign in with your government ID.
And when we reach that chapter, then then
it's it's kind of it's kind of a
ticking, ticking time bomb for for more people
to adopt the ID, for more people to
sign on to these things online,
to to a point where,
either the other services like Facebook, whatever you're
logging in with, also have a dependence on
the government ID, or they simply just block
everyone else off. So for to access your
bank account online, you know, there's there's not
really a better option than that or to,
you know, access YouTube.
You're not really gonna have a choice. So
I do think keeping the,
the in person,
separate from the digital is is just an
interesting aspect of it.
What what do you but what do you
mean by that exactly? Just so I I
I agree in general, but you mean, like,
don't get a digital ID? I feel like
there's more to that what you're saying. Can
you flush that out?
Yeah. So
the,
digital ID system, it's it's it's kind of
going hand in hand with with age verification.
And so, for instance, The UK, there's this
rumor that they're pushing their wallet back three
years.
Australia's wallet is going to be
is ready this year.
The EU, the wallet is gonna be ready
next year, and and people can go ahead
and sign up if they want.
And, EU states are required to have the
Wallet app available. Now there's something interesting in
how big tech is is being used
in a way so that these,
these controls
cannot be broken. What I mean by that
is so you can't spoof the digital ID.
They are super aware of that and will
will not let you sidestep it, get around
it.
So when I was reading The UK gov
policies,
even when they talk about verification,
like, you know, you're at the airport, the
TSA officer, whoever, they kind of look at
your name and face. So anyone performing these
verifications in person or online has to be
certified to do it. Right? So those are
just some of the examples of this verification.
And that's gonna happen online,
and it is also gonna happen in person.
Now,
it's it's gonna be a little bit of
a repeat,
like, kind of the the past decade where
we saw
the rise of bots and spam and everything,
and you started to see those captures everywhere.
You started to see cloud flare everywhere, currently
verifying your connection thing. So you're gonna start
to see more of these gates that you're
gonna have to walk through,
and they're gonna make it a lot easier
for you if you have your digital ID
versus when you won't.
There's there's gonna be a need for a
lot of digital alternatives.
So,
I I think that's one thing to, look
out for. Now going back to, big tech
and and their role in this, two very
important things they did this year
was,
one, they released the developer age
developer verification
program. Google did that. Now anyone who uses
a phone, you know, you you may know
if you use a Google phone, you can
install an app from anywhere.
It doesn't necessarily need to come from the
Google Play Store. It can you can download
it directly from a website.
Well, that's changing
come 2027.
And in 2026, there's a pilot in five
five,
Southeast Asian countries.
And,
after this happens, there's literally a fracturing right
down the middle
where if you have a normal phone, you
don't have alternatives for the apps that you
can use.
And there's already a fracturing on the other
side. Google's released what they call Google Play
Integrity,
which is, it's it's kind of branded as
a security thing. It's like, alright. Make sure
the phone is secure enough so,
no one can use this app maliciously.
But in reality,
it's insecure,
and all it's doing is checking whether this
is a licensed Google phone. So the manufacturer
has a partnership with Google,
so that open source software can't be used.
And I think this is really telling Google
made these two moves this year because it
shows that the Googled phones are a threat.
Believe it or not, it's actually a threat
to them.
I'll finish with this.
Jack Dorsey,
whatever you might think about him,
and this goes into the whole AI discussion,
but he built that, Bluetooth messenger,
and, supposedly,
he did it in a weekend.
So Jack Dorsey being, you know, being a
smart guy, being a software engineer,
cofounder of Twitter and all that. Okay. He
can do that. But what happens when more
and more people start to build solutions?
Google does not want those apps installed on
all the phones. So they're they're planning ahead
and making sure
people are cut off. So that's why I'm
paying attention to it, at least the digital
side.
Well, let let's start with let's get into
you know, because there's many ways you could
come at this. Like, one side is obviously,
like, waste insulate yourself away from these things,
and other others, you know, more than just
two. But other way to look at it
would be think ways to use this stuff
to essentially fight back from within. And so
you're talking about the phone in in one
part of it there. I think it's a
really important I mean, obviously, I think they
recognize what you're doing and what others are
doing as a threat because it allows people
to, at least at the moment,
circumvent the system that's necessary to control and
surveil and all of that. And so, obviously,
we'll include your your link and everything in
the show notes, so I recommend people check
that out. So we can talk the phone
side of that, I think, is important to
start with because you've got, like, Eric Prince
with his fake megaphone that actually was built
partly in China, built by Israel. You know,
it's like these all these things and that
went away. And now you've got this one
that floated for a minute that Trump started
and that just kinda disappeared because it turned
out it was put together in China. It's
very it's interesting, you know? So clearly, I
think that's a major part of it. But
what other elements of this do we think
are ways that we could, you know
either way that goes, you know? Like, ways
that we could use the tech to fight
back. But, like, see, like tech, you're still
using a phone. You're still accessing all the
tech. So some out there, purists might argue
that is even too far. You know, there's
a line there, but other ways do you
guys think you can use this stuff to
fight back? Even on the phone side of
it, wherever you wanna go with it.
Just wait for Elon Musk to bring out
the expo.
It'll be fine. Is he doing that? Oh,
I'm I'm sure I mean, he there was
definitely something about an expo, wasn't it? I'm
sure. I'm sure. I mean, he there was
definitely something about an expo, wasn't it? I'm
sure.
And you have you have to sign up
for the America Party, and then you'll get
the expo in the mail. It'll all work
out.
So I have an example. One of the
things that they'll go after first, which we
already see from from Pakistan,
which has they've been doing a digital ID
since 02/2001.
So in Pakistan, if you want cell service,
you need to, yeah, you need to have
a digital ID. So here is a solution
that currently works. Am I is this screen
the right way? Can you guys see that?
So that's small. That's air. I can. Yeah.
Go ahead. Okay. So so this is one
solution we have is is part of above
phone.
And so if I go to Bob Smith
here, this is thankfully
to the
more lax.
Yeah, more lax cell provider laws in The
US where you can still get an Internet
phone number. So you see this thing that
looks like a phone number.
I could use this anywhere in the world.
I don't need a SIM card. I just
need to be connected to the Internet. So
I could be at a cafe in Austria
and still use
this. Albeit, I do have a US or
Canada country code. Those are the only phone
numbers you can get with this service, but
I can still use it. I can use
it to call. I can use it to
text.
Now that is still the layer where we're
bridging worlds. That's when we need to talk
to people on on the phone network. Super
common. This also allows for international calls and
stuff.
The next layer
is actually
is actually using decentralized messaging tools, which I
had a great interview with, James where we
got to talk about this a little bit.
We got to talk about XMPP.
And, you know, that that's a solution that
anyone can run,
in any country. You could burn it on
a computer at home.
And,
what's really important is we start investing
in this infrastructure,
locally. We start to run
more
companies or even services that provide these services
for people within the country so people still
have a way to communicate. Because at a
certain point, I mean, this voice over Internet
protocol is great. I give it about
I would be very surprised if we still
have the same level of access that we
do in about five years. Sorry. Hakim, I
just I know I just in the last
day or two read an article about a
bunch of companies that were providing VoIP VoIP
that were
I don't know. Like, there was some kind
and there's a new US restriction because
they have to comply with the, the the
robocall
laws or whatever.
Yeah. That's more regulation from the FCC. It
was this
they they're cracking down a little. I mean,
they're they're releasing new regulation all the time,
and so there's these, robocall mitigation laws as
part of the Trace Act in The US.
And,
so slowly, they're they're trying to make it
a lot harder to run a VoIP
service.
This one is is supposed to protect you.
And, so there was a thousand companies that
didn't comply.
A thousand companies that this is actually a
perfect example.
So there's around 2,000, 2,400 companies in The
US that do this VoIP service. A thousand
of them weren't complying. So what did they
do? They told the other 1,400 companies not
to route calls from the other 1,000.
And I think it sums up this game
theory perfectly.
They can only rely on the rest of
us to cut the other people out.
So going back to restaurants and stuff, they
will rely on
you know, we're really relying on each other
not to cut each other out. You know,
this this really does get to the heart
of it, and thank you for clarifying that.
Because I remember, yeah, reading about that, and
I I so the robocall mitigation regulations, I
guess, require
these services to,
to log and and,
the the the phone calls that are being
made or whatever. They have to keep those
records and then obviously
store them for government access in the future
essentially is what they're doing. Anyway, but you're
right. Yes. It comes back to the the
sort of the participation. Will will people participate
in this? And I think that really is
the the heart of the matter and to
me the sort of the societally, existentially
threatening
part of this because as I think you
mentioned at the top, it's not necessarily
the ham handed government
regulations
that we have to worry about so much
as it is to a certain extent if
we're looking for the problem, we should start
by looking in the mirror,
to the extent that we are participating in
these systems voluntarily when we don't have to.
In a way that's extremely
empowering because, hey, we do have choice and
we can take alternatives. But in a way,
it's extremely frightening because, for example, with my
recent experience in Malaysia,
I was the only one who was who
thought there was anything even weird here. It's
like it's it really is like the twilight
zone when you step into a situation like
that and everyone else is just whipping out
their card and scanning their QR code and,
you know, it's just daily business. But for
me, I'm like, oh no. What's going on
here? And I think an important part of
what the sort of the societal fabric of
what's happening right now is
we are seeing
the government tyranny being outsourced.
So for example, what was
the the core heart of the CBDC issue
was, oh my god, the central bank is
going to know everything about everything you're doing
and we'll be able to prevent your transactions,
etcetera. An obvious threat to liberty that even
the asleepest of the asleep could see was,
hey, maybe we don't want that kind of
system guys, right? So pretty much everyone can
get behind the let's ban CBDCs movement.
But then what do we replace it with?
Well, stable coins. So what we'll do is
we'll outsource
this particular function
to a third party. Don't worry guys, it's
some company. It's Tether or whoever. That that
has nothing to do with the US government.
It's just, oh, well, we'll pass this legislation
so that we regulate and can control exactly
who can participate in this space and under
what restrictions
and given what kind of oversight.
Which
to me, to my mind, is exactly in
a sense this is this is the heart
of the banking system that perhaps people have
failed to understand. Yes, the central bank, the
the Federal Reserve or the Bank of England
or whatever it is. Yes. It's the central
bank that is the the bank for the
banks,
where the bank money, the reserve money is
is held. But the entire system has been
predicated on having these commercial banks, these third
party, hey, these aren't government banks. These are
these are private entities
that play with the the central bank, but
then they're the ones providing the service to
us. It's this intermediation
of the banking system
that then allows the government exactly as an
operation choke point there in The US. It
wasn't it wasn't the government that was debanking
anyone. It was the private banks because the
government was leaning on them with their Right.
FVIC
regulatory authority.
That's the that's the system. That's the way
this is being structured. So
in a sense, yes. Great. Okay. I I
think it's true. If we don't play along
with these games, if we refuse to go
to the restaurant that's getting us to QR
skin, or if we refuse to use Reddit
or whatever when they're asking us for our
digital government ID,
great.
But in a sense, the entire system is
being structured this way. And unless we confront
it, I mean, I guess what I'm saying
is the 100%
most important priority in all of this is
the public awareness.
Because I think the public is going to
just go along with it because, again, this
isn't the government tyranny that we've been hearing
about. It's just private companies and you can
choose and, hey, whatever. I trust Elon Musk
or whoever.
That to me seems to be the root
of the issue. And I think they learn
that very well after things like Total Information
Awareness and Palantir and, like, the way that
they can shift into the company and hide
everything and the public private overlap where they
go, oh, no. That's that's part private. Can't
do that. You know? And and I think
right now, that's a very obvious shift. And
I think, like, I just bumped up against
that interestingly with research around the bio side
of it, where I'm looking at a, a
new, like, I think it was the vaccine
patches, and they're they're working with different companies.
The US government is another way they're kind
of pretending they're stopping when they're not. But
I'm looking into the company, and I'm I
kept bumping up against this. So it's private
company. And I was, like, unable to find
the person's name who was behind it. And
it's just like this weird you know, that's
the fascist overlap right there. And I think
that's very obviously they recognize a way to
get around it all. And then, of course,
we are bombarded moment after moment with narratives
every moment that shift in flux, you know,
depending on what they need to get us
with that justify each one little step. And
nobody you know, the normies, let's say, don't
connect those little steps and dots with the
bigger picture. That's the boiling frog. You know,
it just you're right, though, James. That that
really is the crux. That's why I talk
about the two party illusion part of it,
which clearly even from The UK, it's more
than two, but it's just the the false
binary idea that is the real crux of
the problem, not the only problem. But damn
it. It's the one thing that really does
seem to stop us when we get close.
The the outsourcing extends to censorship as well
because the, like, the the, the online safety
act, for example, it doesn't find individuals
for saying things. It finds platforms for hosting
things. So the platforms then, you know, they're
not being ordered to take things down, but
they face government fines if they don't take
them down. And you can't object because free
speech is guaranteed by the government. It's not
guaranteed by Twitter. It's not guaranteed by Facebook.
They're a private company. They can just take
you down if you want.
And, of course, it works both ways because
the bigger companies
like Google, like Facebook, like Twitter can afford
to pay the fines if they get fined,
but smaller rivals that would be set up
to encourage free speech couldn't afford to pay
the fines. Right. So the government gets its
censorship, and and then the mega companies get
their monopoly, and they they intertwine like that.
In a sense, that's another sort of false
binary. It's government versus corporations. They're so intermingled,
so tied together. You can't really separate them.
There's all that. Go ahead, Haim. Go ahead.
I was just because it's kinda dumb. It
was,
when the CIA was,
doing a partnership with Google for their own
CIA dashboard, they had to ask permission,
for Google so that they can change their
logo. They could change the Google logo to
have the CIA seal on it.
They have to ask permission.
Luckily, Google don't it was don't be evil
at that time. Right? So Yeah. Yeah. They're
like, alright. CIA.
Alright.
I saw, just the other day, someone had
saved a screenshot from Google and I suppose
it would be the late nineteen thirty thousands,
which is when it was still an incredibly
rough little text box that had little disclaimer
on it that said we're the only search
engine that doesn't monitor your data and that
doesn't have advertising.
It was it was quite sad. It was
like, oh, he was so innocent when he
was young. Well, they were lying then too.
Let's be clear about that.
I think that's the point.
Wow. But but so let let's come at
that, like, from the kind of the one
of the main points today is so, like,
what we're discussing, what are the possible solutions
to that? You know, obviously, it's one of
the main things, you know, from the non
tech side is what we're talking about is
just, you know, information, what we do for
a living, getting people to understand that these
are the you know, the
narrative of the day is not necessarily about
solving that wedge issue. It's about you, you
know, justifying what comes down the line in
six months. But, you know, what other ways
in that moment can we use to circumvent
that that problem in your gut's mind? Let
me give you my my
first approximation of a stab at this. Mhmm.
I think
given
what we're talking about here, given the fact
that it is this government slash private collaboration,
the public private partnerships, that's the polite name
for fascism these days.
How do we how do we approach that?
To me that
as a volunteerist, as someone who thinks that
government should not exist, but people should be
allowed to
exercise their freedoms in the way that they
want as long as it doesn't infringe on
other people's rights to exercise their freedoms.
I don't think there should be a body
that comes along and
in some way regulates that people can't use
an online ID or there cannot be smartphones
or QR codes or something. No. That would
be a tyranny
in maybe even if it corresponded with the
type of tyranny you wanted, it would still
be tyranny and I would not be in
support of that. But,
so to me, the real crux of the
matter,
at the very least
okay. There's two things that come to mind.
One is that, yes, I I am I
am as I hope people understand by now
through what I've done with SolutionsWatch and everything
else, I am 100% supportive of people
creating and finding and using alternatives and finding
the spaces and the cracks in the system
and doing things, you know, in the disintermediated
way that you say the Internet was predicated
on in the first place. That's incredibly important.
So my hats off to Hakeem and everyone
out there who is doing that kind of
work. It's incredibly important and I appreciate it.
Having said that, it does create
sort of a two tier system where there
is
the everyday public life of people who go
along their merry way and don't ever have
to put two
two seconds of thought into what they're doing,
and can, you know, enter any public space
and do whatever they want because they're using
the default method, the cashless digital ID, whatever.
And then there are the, you know, the
vagabonds
and the,
and and the the the castaways from society.
And
to a certain extent, maybe that maybe at
least that's better than an outright tyranny in
which there are no cracks in the system
and in which there is no space for
freedom. But, you know, if I have to
be a pirate in order to do it,
then I guess so.
What's the, what's the wretched hive of scum
and villainy?
Star Wars lore? Yeah.
Moss Eiselies. Moss Eiselies. Sorry. I'm getting my
help from my assistant back here. You know,
there's the Moss Eiselies of the world where,
you know, you can go and and you
can be that sort of, you know, alternative
person. But
to me, the the real crux of the
matter is to not implement this
at the level of the government regulation. Because
to me, that's the evil crux of this.
Because whether it's the government tyranny or it's
the public private partnership tyranny, it's stemming from
the the government's supposed right to say regulate
this industry. Hey, these are private companies. They
just have to play by our rules. So
that seems to me to be the fundamental
connection in this chain of tyranny, and we
have to find a way to break that.
But that to me isn't a technological problem.
I mean, that's a social political
problem. And, I don't know if we I
don't know if there's technology that I mean,
Hakeem, maybe I don't know. But maybe your
take is the technology
actually dictates
society.
Because
a a couple of decades ago, of course,
taxis are the only way to get around.
Like, what are you what are you talking
about? And then some, you know, Uber and
Lyft come along and completely change upend people's
perception of that. Or Airbnb completely upends people's
perceptions of the way the hotel industry works.
So perhaps your is your take that the
technology will lead people in directions that are
either towards freedom or away from freedom depending
on the way the technology is constructed? Really
quick, Hakeem. I'll just add on top of
that. Let's not forget too that the element
of, as I'm sure James would add, that
it's not just the organic element, but that
the government now are like, deliberately
holds back technology until it can be flooded
to the time that they would feel it
most meets their interest. That's what changes that
point, but but go ahead, Hakeem.
I think that technology
is both the best
it's both the worst thing that happened to
humanity,
and, also, it's kind of our saving grace.
Just just just a little bit. Why?
Because, I mean, look look at
look at the lockdowns during COVID. Where did
we all have to turn to? Because everyone,
you know, generally around us, if you take
a random sample of people,
a lot of them are gonna be asleep.
Very few of them are gonna wait. You're
you're already very lucky if you're around neighborhood
where where people are awake. So people didn't
have those social bonds yet. I think we're
in Konkin's third stage
of
evolution
where, more and more people are becoming agorist
or volunteerist. And we're right now, we're in
that navigation phase. There's gonna be a lot
of shuffling around.
Close proximity to each other, we are going
to have to use technology a little bit,
to figure out where we're gonna go next.
And,
so until we get to the point where
we're in a giant intentional community and we
don't need banks, we don't need to go
to the grocery store, which is not gonna
happen for a while, I would think, at
least a few years. You know, technology is
gonna have a place in it. But I
I don't think it's the end all to
all our problems. It's just it's just kind
of a bridge to help us get there.
And then maybe when we get established, maybe
technology could play a role
to federate
our intentional communities and actually
have safe ways to communicate across distance and
send money across distances. Because as far as
I know, cryptocurrency
is the only way to send a large
sum of something that could be accepted, you
know, as a medium of exchange
right now across borders
without having to take dollar bills through,
you know, the RFID detectors or
smuggle it through customs. It's the only way.
So, I mean, if it does work, we
might as well experiment with it
a little bit. And so, at Above,
we've been trying to do things that address
these problems.
Right now, in several countries,
Pakistan being one, Estonia
being the other, I believe you would need
to have a digital ID in order to
get a a SIM card. However,
in other countries
that have partnerships
with,
mobile service providers in Pakistan, you can still
get cell service. So the laws are not
equally applied.
And so there are workarounds that you can
use to get connectivity in these regions.
Here's also an interesting thing. I want to
interview,
an an Afghan refugee who's living in Pakistan.
Why? Because they're one of the 4% that
aren't on digital ID. They can't they can't
legally rent a house. They can't get utilities.
They can't go to school. They can't get
married. What is life like that for that
person? Right? And I think we we get
to experience this as as part of it
is we have to let our own expectations
down as well. It's gonna be kinda ghetto
for a little bit. Right? We're gonna be,
what did it what did Orwell call the,
the places outside of the city?
Oh,
I looked that up real quick. I thought
I had a I thought I had a
name. Anyways,
I'm like, Mos Eisley. We're going to Mos
Eisley. And
That was Orwell. Right?
Yeah.
I had I had a question for you,
though. Can I I don't wanna monopolize this
conversation, but it also occurs to me that,
the question also is, can we scale human
connection?
Because
part of, I think, the fundamental problem that
we have is that human connection between human
people
is,
I mean, in a natural state, in a
non technological state, you're talking about hundreds,
maybe thousands of people that can live in
some sort of natural
state without technological
aid. Once you start to scale it up
to millions,
billions of people across international boundaries around the
entire world, you're starting to look at the
problems that inherently come with this
question of,
technological connection. And so, one example of this
is, I I always like to try to
put myself back in the mindset of someone
say in the nineteenth century.
Right? Where
a passport?
I need some kind of like
letter from the queen or the king, I
guess, telling me that I can move from
one place to another. What? Like why? What
what is this about? Passports were an invention
of the twentieth century. They didn't exist before
that point. So why
how do they become normal? Or how about
your government issued whatever, driver's license or whatever
ID, the physical ID,
that's so much better than digital ID. No.
It's fundamentally the sort of the same concept.
Why is there this government database that that
says who you are and that proves your
age and everything? Well, it's because how, you
know, if you go to the corner store
and you wanna buy a pack of cigarettes,
do people buy cigarettes anymore? I'm an old
man. I don't know. Anyway,
how are you gonna do that? You have
to show your ID. Right? But think about
that a hundred years ago. I mean, do
do you think there were people, like, checking
government issued IDs every time someone bought a
pack of cigarettes? Of course not. If some
12 year old came up to buy cigarettes,
they they'd probably, like, okay. Whatever. Right. I
don't care. Whatever. So
it's sort of that that as the scale
gets bigger, we start to expect these technological
interventions to do things that in an actual
human community of hundreds of people where you
know your neighbors and you know what's going
on and there's no big
overarching authority over the entire, you know, nation
or continent or whatever.
It's just about that human connection which can
be dealt with without these big systems, centralized
systems of control. How do you get
how do you do that on the scale
of millions or billions of people without instituting
centralized systems of control and databasing? And that's
the the again, that's a fundamental question.
And I'd like to hear that there are
ways of doing that,
but, it gets hard to think about. But
I think it comes down to the core
point real quickly just of again, it there
like, there will always be
like, somebody out there is gonna hear that
and list off the things that would make
that bad for them. Like, there will always
be negatives that come, but it's about liberty
versus, you know, the negative like, that's what
it always comes down to in this conversation
is that you're willing to sacrifice
some of those things for liberty. You know?
There's a there's a quote for that. You
know, so and go ahead. I have another
question I wanted to direct at Akeem. But
James' point, we can go around on that.
So I think that's what it comes down
to.
In beginning, I was getting slightly off, topic,
I suppose. But, like, it is important that
in some ways, you need to counter the
mindset that
there is no automatic right to be told
what to do. That that the the problem
is using that power correctly rather than
maybe that power shouldn't exist. Like, I've written
a lot
about, lab grown meat and alternative proteins and
all the other things they call it. And
I don't like it. I don't like it.
It's insidious. It's unpleasant.
And yet when Florida banned lab grown meat,
I I've got messages saying this and this
is good news, and I had to say,
well,
I don't think so. Because it still normalizes
the idea that the government can just say,
no. That's not lab. Because that's the core
of both. If if people want lab grown
meat, they should be able to get it.
I mean, I I wouldn't eat it myself,
but I wouldn't eat deep fried crickets either.
And I I don't especially want to eat
anything Bill Gates has had his hands on.
But I don't believe it is my right.
Your enemy's right to tell other people that
they can't.
And so you do want you do want
to really counter
what has become highly normalized,
like, tyrannical urge in people that they feel
the need. There should be somebody telling them
what to do. It seems designed that way.
Like, you're creating a situation where you get
the other side to call. And, again, this
is where it comes down to it's not
even about the point. It's not about woke
pronouns. It's about using that to get you
in a certain position. You know? And so
there, it's like you create the system where
you get the right so outraged that they
call for the same tyrannical thing they hate
because they wanna dunk on the other side.
It's it's actually pretty well crafted when you
think about it. You know? But it is
everywhere we look right now, but I agree.
I think that's a very important point about
how this is all used against us to
get us to call for our own subjugation.
If if the real if the real
way forward here is education,
what is the best thing to share with
people first?
Because we do have so I I I
do think all through all of our audiences,
I think we have a lot of people
that are just kind of waiting to be
told what to do. Not not told what
to do, but guided. Right?
Here, let's focus on this issue. Here's a
here's a design for a sticker. Go and
send these out. So in the face of
this poly crisis, where where do we start?
I'm interested in what you guys say. Excellent
point. And here's an example of that that
just happened recently. Have has everyone noticed everyone
changing their profile pic to Clippy?
Yes. Yet again? Right? Because that guy put
out that video.
And what is even the point of this?
Clippy never didn't wasn't watching what you did.
Clippy didn't tell you what to do. Clippy
wasn't spying on you. You know, Clippy is
a good guy. Right? And so change your
profile pic to Clippy.
I don't know exactly what they're gonna try
to accomplish with that movement, but anyway, everyone's
changing their profile pic to Clippy. Right? So
It's just research. I just had to look
up what that was also.
Yeah.
Yeah. That's just I see. Where the social
is fair. Notice it now again. Yeah. Because
because a silly video,
for whatever reason, millions of people watched it
and decided to do it. You know, it
would be great if we had
something like that. That just at the very
least just represented in a simple way what
it is we're trying to put forward in
a way that people can at the very
least, as you say, Hakeem, people are waiting
for the movement because 99% of people are
just waiting for
sort of someone else to take care of
it and I'll just follow them. So,
yeah, how do we get people to understand
that they are part of a movement and
put their you know, start putting their thought
and intention into that? Something as stupid as,
hey. Change your profile click to Clippy can
be that kind of thing that gets people
at least thinking in the right direction. The
problem though, and this is and I agree
with you. That solution is that's in and
of its in its own, that that's, you
know, period. That's something we should do. But
the problem is that the same thing, the
technology side of it, the platform. Like, I'm
of the mind today with how controlled an
algorithms and AI that any online engagement is
that there's no
organic viral anymore. You know? So the point
is that little things will never be allowed
to get where they need to go. But
this is why we do, like, Whitney's talking
about, go back to paper and like, there's
ways around it, but it's the whole two
steps forward, one step back. That's what our
world is these days. But I agree with
you, but it's like so, again, maybe to
Hakim, like, what is the solution therein? Like
like, you know, like, off top of my
head, not being the super tech guy, the,
you know, decentralized Internet would be a way
to, like, try to get around that. You
know? But that's kind of the focal is,
like, how do we either choose to go
completely analog or find ways to go around
it? That's why I like what you do,
Hakim, is because there's a lot of pushback
on the general idea of using tech in,
you know, all crypto bad kind of a
mindset, and maybe they're right. But I there
are ways that we can use these things
to, you know, work through that and fight
back. But I don't know how you get
around that, James. Look at Twitter. Like, I
don't think any real ideas are getting the
light they deserve these days. We're we're not
going to win with algorithms anymore. It's just
not gonna happen. It's too tightened down.
I don't wanna give up and say they've
won, but
it really does look like it. So
we're gonna have to use email. As stupid
as that is is
we can we can use some low tech,
still fairly decentralized solution. Implicated in that, Hakeem.
I have the worst email person to have
to still use email. I have the worst
email situation of anybody I know. And I,
like, I'll just have to speak up and
say, I don't know about that because I
was saying right now that every single important
thing I get goes to spam. I like,
it's not it's almost a joke. And everything
that like, all the spam that's, like, the
obvious, like, buy these crypto you know, buy
this casino stuff is all in my inbox.
And no matter what I do, it seems
to stay that way. You know, I agree
with you. Like, that's the direction, but I'm
almost feeling like, you know,
carrier pigeon. You know? Like, it's the direct
my mind's going in. I feel like your
spam filter is not working properly.
But I will ask all four of us,
what is the most direct way we have
to reach our audience if it's not through
a third party platform? And that's why email
kind of falls in there. Right? That's why
sub stack is is now a thing. And
their tariffs.
R r s s. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's
right. Which I'm gonna die on that hill,
and I know no one's following it. In
mind. I still think it's right. Yeah. I
still have it on mine. Everyone asked me
that when I used to have it off,
so I include a little tab that says
RSS. Honestly, I get more questions about what
that even is these days than I do,
but for those that want it, it works.
Change your profile pic to the RSS. The
RSS. It's mine. It's gonna be my campaign.
You'll just get people saying, where is your
profile pick a volume of symbol?
Raise the volume.
Well,
I there's there's two things, and
there's two things here. Once we we need
a real call to action that is digital
into physical, which is something I've always promoted.
We have this digital connection. I mean, that's
why,
when Derek came up with the idea for
the greater reset, it was really powerful.
It I think it was the year before
the algorithm shifted shifted because it felt like
overnight there was this large following of people,
and we was lucky enough to connect us
to you and to a lot of people
around the world at that time. Now it's
not like that anymore, but still, there are
fragments of us. And I think the problem
is is that a lot let's just call
each other influencers. I don't know what the
hell we are, but, right, reporters, influencers Not
not a word that I like, but let
let you know, go ahead.
Correct me on that. But we're not really
working together. It's kind of like, I'm doing
my own thing over here. You're doing your
own thing. We're reporting on different things. You
have your own, area of knowledge, but there's
no coordination.
And I I wish there was
because it would make things a lot more
effective. And I and I think as No.
It mhmm. No. No. What do you guys
change? Must have a fight. No.
No. I don't think there needs to be
coordination.
You know, to me, this is what the
fundamental point of the Internet revolution is. Is
that back in the twentieth century in the
mass media paradigm that we were in, yeah,
of course, you needed to congregate and have
people working to in the same
usually in the same physical space, but at
least towards the same idea. So you'd have
the handful of, you know, Time Magazine and
New York Times and blah blah blah. And
you could have your left flavor and your
right flavor, but, you know, all working within
that same system. But the point of the
disintermediation
that the Internet has brought about is that
we can all be doing our own thing.
And each person
gets to be their own editor. And I
each person can say, you know, I love
what Hakim's doing. I love I I absolutely
love the daily wrap up. Off Guardian is
just nailing it every day. And, Corbett, he's
an asshole. I hate him. Screw him. And
they can decide. They can pick and choose
and Right. Tailor their feed the way they
want, and that's awesome. I think that's a
good thing. Why do we all have to
be on the same page working towards the
same agenda and agreeing on the same things?
No. Let's all be different and let people
choose their own path forward.
And Oh, interesting. It's it's kind of that
mindset of no, we all must be on
the same page that I think is the
is the old twentieth century mindset that we
know where that leads. We know the type
of, you know, media aggregation that that leads
to. I like this. I like so this
is interesting. I'm I I'll I'm gonna put
my thoughts somewhere in the middle. And, you
know, maybe let me kick can say give
us his thought on it because this is
actually a really important conversation that we always
it's it is important. It gets talked about
a lot is that, you know, let me
start with this. I think we can all
acknowledge that, I think it's been I would
argue by design that people have been isolated
and siloed in this field. Right? Like, we're
we're echo chambered, and that goes for every
possible even the corporate media, mainstream media people
are the same way. But in the independent
media, I feel it has been driven to
where we are adversarial against each other. And
I I think in many ways, obviously, because
of infiltration, we should be questioning, but I
think it's could become almost like like,
I don't know what the right word would
be, but just it's a problem. But at
the same time, I I I it's refreshing
here you say that, James, because I completely
agree with, you know, the over the like,
the idea that we have to or if
you're if you're not, then you're not fighting
in the right direction. Like, you're right. We
have things have changed quite a bit, and
then it's almost like that can be to
our detriment. But I would argue it's somewhere
in the middle. Right? I think it's important
that we don't feel like we have to
be, like, part of some club and group.
And not to say that's what you were
saying, Hakeem, but that can be how it
is perceived that we're part of the click
or we're part of this echo chamber idea,
you know, so where we can focus on
what we like. But at the same time,
I do think it's important that we try
to get some coordination, some some like, what
we're doing with the IMA. I think that's
very important if it's done the right way.
So I think it's somewhere in the middle,
but I really like that this is getting
discussed because that's I didn't I don't hear
that opinion a lot, James, and I I
do agree with you. So what do you
what do you have any thoughts on that,
Kit, in that in that general point?
If not, I'm worried you're a threat on
spot.
Yeah. Like,
I think
in some ways, coordination
just happens. And I think that is the
the when and when it does, it's very
powerful. Like, I think
you go back to March 2020,
nobody said,
this is the big deal, guys. We have
to run around because COVID is the thing.
This is gonna end everything if we let
it. There was a feeling, and there was
a sort of an organic
coordination
of an army of individuals as opposed to
an army.
I think
that's when coordination is at its most powerful,
when it's a sort of unspoken
understanding.
That's a good point. I think that will
occur naturally
when it needs to.
Yeah. In the later chapters You know what?
There's a technological
implication to this. And, Hakim, I want you
to to to comment on this because
I I think that that sort of the
paradigm
is either
WebRings or RSS. And I say this because,
okay, for years and years, I I've been
doing this for nearly twenty years now. So
I remember, you know, back in the day,
years and years ago, people used to write
back. You know, actually come to think of
it, this was in the time when everyone
had their own website and people were used
to going to different websites. Now it's all
just YouTube and Instagram and whatever. But anyway,
back in the day and people would always
email me like, why don't all you guys
just get together and, you know, all and
so you're all in one place, so I
don't have to go to all these different
websites every day. And, some people would suggest,
for example, WebRings. Do people remember that back
in the, web one point o?
You would have,
like a little panel that had a link
to all these different blogs that are associated
with the one that you're reading. Right? Like
a drop down on the on the screen.
Exactly. Right? And so you could
and you'd share the link and you'd become
part of this web ring so people would
get caught in this ring, I guess. I
don't know.
And so people are what do you mean?
That kind of thing. But I I always
wanted to respond to those people. Who's you
guys? Because everybody's you guys is gonna be
different. And in fact, I remember one of
these people who were saying you guys should
get together,
was also saying, I can't remember who it
was, but someone some nine eleven truth or
something that they hated and they thought there
was a shill and whatever. It was someone
that I interviewed a lot and talked to.
So it's like, am I one of you
guys? Is that guy one of you guys?
You know, how do we but that's because
the paradigm is you guys should all be
together. Whereas the spontaneous
order that I hope is what Kit is
driving at, which I 100%
agree. Yes. When I I am here because
I choose to be here. Right? And
people voluntarily choosing to come together and work
on issues that they agree on, talk about
them, etcetera. That's wonderful. That's spontaneous order. And
that I to my mind is reflected more
in the RSS model rather than the web
ring model. No. I don't have to be,
you know, literally linked and associated with this
and this and this and this website.
You get to choose. I want this guy
and this guy and this guy and this
guy in my feed, and you come to
that organically. It's the spontaneous order that happens
and yes, we're gonna we're we're probably gonna
meet like minded people and gravitate towards them
and work to together in directions that we
want, when we want, and when I have
a fundamental disagreement
and suddenly, I don't know, Ryan, you're advocating
for, you know, actually, we do need CBDCs
or something. I'll be like, screw you, Ryan.
I'm not working with you anymore, and it'll
be fine because we're not Right. Linked at
the hip. Right? That's that's the spontaneous order,
which should be I think should be the
vision for what we're doing. And I think,
technologically, that's reflected in the web ring slash
RSS paradigm. Right? In this this speaks to
something like I think it's and it it's
weird. So this is right in the middle
of this conversation, and I think most of
these issues are, where you don't which way
to go. Now alls. I think it's somewhere
in the middle. I I see this happening
a lot. Like, so, for example, on Twitter,
one thing I I noticed and it's still
you know, more choices are going in this
direction. Like, started to if you hashtag, you
get suppressed. Right? If you include links, you
get whatever the term is these days, you
get, you know, throttled. You you don't get
as seen as much. Suppression is I think
is the best term. And so what does
that you know, there's a narratives for why.
What does it ultimately lead to? Less coordination.
Right? No central location where you can go,
oh, that hashtag. What what what is everybody
saying? They you have to go down these
individual channels. And I think it's about trying
to
silo the way, you know, echo chamber the
way you look at things. But at the
same time, like you're saying, James, so it's
on us. That's the bigger picture of the
whole conversation today. Right? Go out there whether
s RSS or whatever else. The point of
RSS that, like, I think is James getting
at that I like, so you can be
the one that goes, I want this one.
I want that one. I want this guy,
and they show up on your screen. You
know? That's what how that really should work,
and you can use it that way. And
so you are do you are putting everyone
you like in that one group, but it's
your choice. And, you know, so it's it
is the middle ground of all of this.
And I think that's all like, everything we're
getting at, it seems, at least in my
mind, to be the path we should be
taking. And, again, self responsibility, which is a
tenet of everything we're talking about today. So
I think that's a good way to look
at it. Let me, let me respond because,
I think
yes. So I think I was maybe maybe
a little bit misunderstood
when I said coordinate.
No. I'm not saying that let's all pick
one idea and and just move forward with
that. And and, yes, spontaneous order is is
an important part of this.
But I I I would just say that
I I don't think there is enough collaboration.
And I think that we need to put
forth the models that do get people engaged
so people can be a part of this.
And and if they like the ideas they're
put we're putting out to go out in
the world and at least be an ambassador,
and maybe they like it, maybe they don't
like it, maybe they tweak it. But I
I think I don't think there's enough two
way engagement
in a lot of the work that that
is happening right now. And, really, that's what
we need the most because the algorithms don't
they don't care about us. We're not getting
any traction. It's hard. We kind of have
our audiences. We can do our best to
grow and get on each other's podcast and
show and all that. But we really need
to get out in the real world because
that's where the fracturing is, and not the
fracturing is just getting worse. So I would
say, like,
one thing,
some people
talk to me and,
they they always tell me it leaves an
impression when I talk about the the phone
company and and what we're doing. And they
let me know, hey. I'm also doing that
in my neighborhood. I'm also helping people out.
You you you help me understand what a
good incentive it is to be helping people
to be making income
and to be doing work that I enjoy.
And so I think as, like, for lack
of a better world, being like a thought
leader, if you are starting a farm, you
really have to show that off. Be like,
here's here's what I did. You can do
this at home. Maybe maybe try it. And
the same thing with with promotions. It's like,
here's how I built an audience.
Please try to do the same thing. Let's
let's get more people on our side. And
so that's what I was trying to say
with coordination.
I totally agree it should be spontaneous. We
shouldn't just all be saying the same thing,
but I just hope we try
to get people activated to go out in
the real world.
Yeah, I think we all definitely agree with
that. It's just important to, you know, and
like everything we're doing today go ahead, James.
Sorry. Let's put that out as the question
then. What technologies
facilitate
human connection versus technologies that taketh away from
human connection? So That's hard. I mean, for
example,
freedom
cells is a brilliant idea,
because it's the using the technology to find
people that you can then connect with in
the real world. Right? That should be if
if that is what we're interested in, we
should be thinking technologically. What technologies actually bring
people together in the physical space?
Hakeem, I'm all ears. What what do you
think? You have to build something
specifically for that. I mean, I'll just share
an idea that I had at my end
in my head, which is,
you could think think of it
like Mapbox
or something. And it's kind of like a
decentralized Craigslist.
There's,
so if someone wanted to it's a software
that you can run on your own. If
someone was
in New York City, they could run their
own New York City server, newyorkcity.mapbox.com.
And you could go into that server, and
there's just a map. And anyone can throw
anything on there, and it's kinda like a
bulletin board. It's all these things combined into
one that helps facilitate in person exchange. So,
I I think decentralized
software like that,
with with a geolocation
function
could be one of the best ways.
I think if you're doing something locally,
you
might need to bust out the QR code.
I mean, you know, people people use it,
you know, and slap some stickers around. Yeah.
I'm not against QR code as a principle,
like, on principle. Oh my god. I think
people get out of it. But yeah. It's
yeah. You know what I mean?
I have a really big weird like, maybe
I just that I'm overreacting to it, but
something about that has always put me out.
Like, I think one of the earliest things
I saw was, as you guys have talked
about, I'm sure, people putting stickers over them
and you're doing you know, or, you know,
them their weird ways they can be manipulated
to where you ultimately don't know you're giving
up information that you you know what I
mean? Like, the or even just the company
themselves could lie to you, and you're giving
more than you realize when you do it.
I just am so adverse to those things.
It's like people who were scared of the
barcodes back when they were introduced because they
all have, like, eight six six embedded in
them or whatever. Right?
But it's the same point, though, realistically. Well,
I guess if if scanning a barcode could,
like, transfer information from your phone, I would
say it's the same point. You know? It's
like just the fact that it's there makes
me worried about it. Not that it's, like,
you know, maybe it's 5%, 95%, but I'm
still worried about that 5%. You know? It's
like that's the like, anywhere with this stuff.
I just I just had a good idea.
So
our company, we ship internationally around the world.
I'm thinking about how much extra would it
cost us per package
if I put in 50 stickers in there
of something I wanted to promote.
And I know you guys send out books
everywhere. I know Ryan does merch.
And how hard would that be? And what
what could that you know, how could it
build up on each other? So so yeah.
I stickers.
Stickers. That's my solution. It's not even technology,
but
it's something.
I'm not sure. I in what way? So
so stickers like, go ahead. So okay. So,
like, for instance, for for above phone, if
I want to do in person marketing,
when you ship above phone in the box,
it also comes with 50
really,
small size stickers that are just really easy
to put put up. Oh, they land out.
Exactly. And you Yeah. You know, you you
hope your person is a star. It always
surprises me. We we sell stickers on the
New World Next Week store. And I you
know, personally, I just think, well, why why
do people even want them? But people do.
And they put them in places. And, you
know, someone sees the sticker and someone goes
to a site and it can change their
life. And it's something that I don't, you
know, personally, I don't do that, so I
don't think about it. But it is, I
mean, a stupidly
simple, but potentially really effective idea for getting
information out. I love it when people do,
like, and please, if you're listening, go do
it. Put a sticker somewhere it shouldn't be.
Go out there and put my DLF sticker
right on somewhere that, you know, like, that's
it's that, like, I agree with you entirely.
It's it's but I like it the way
that's like, like a protest in and of
itself. You know, go put it on the
back of a cop car. So
don't do that. You'll get in trouble. I
was just kidding.
Don't put my stickers. No.
But yeah. I but I so I I
mean, I definitely like the like, what what
I what I was thinking though is, like,
even freedom sells. You know, I I agree
that's a good example of, you know, going
through it, but arguably,
you could do that without tech. Right? You
could just put out flyers. Right? So I'm
try I was you said that, and I
was trying to think, is there even a
way? Like, is there a way that tech
could be used like that without, like, just
saying get rid of the tech and do
it do it the same way? Does it
just give another step to what you're already
doing? Do you guys have any thoughts of
where, you know, actual using tech like that?
Like, I mean, I think you could say,
like, a crypto thing or the Internet itself,
you know, how it's used back, but it's
you know, I think more this goes in
this direction with the way it's being done
now, I think it's increasingly less likely.
We're saying a pure tech solution that brings
people together in person? Or or anything. Like,
a a piece of technology that doesn't also
come with its negative that may out even
weigh the positive use of it. Like, with
the street themselves, clearly, there's surveillance and everything
else using that to get there. You know?
Any thoughts on pure a pure piece of
tech that exist that could be used that
way? I think in order to do that,
you're gonna have to sort of you're gonna
have to roll back. You're gonna have to,
like, you know, to stop. I'm surprised this
doesn't exist already, but maybe it does. Companies
that sell
old printers where you don't have subscribed to
buy ink, for example. I mean, that should
be a thing.
Hell, maybe maybe I'll stop doing off guard
and do that instead.
There's gonna be a market for old cars
that don't have kill switches or electronics.
Right. I mean, this this there is gonna
be a market for rolling back to more
reliable old technology that isn't wired up to
the grid.
And
just going back to the flyers thing, I
mean,
flyers do work. Flyers work more than you'd
think. I mean, it it's gonna feel like
to anyone that reads off Guardian and has
talked to me in the last six weeks
that I don't talk about anything else. But
I put up flyers on my cat, I'm
guessing,
and I joined Facebook groups, like, from us.
And I got far more response to flyers,
actual real person flyers, in my neighborhood of,
like, 200 people than I did in Facebook
with 20,000 people.
Flyers do work. They are I mean, and
if you can print them yourself without having
to subscribe to a an incredibly extortion of
printing thing Right. Then then all the better.
I I I love that. I mean, this
that's honestly my mindset. And I I hate
to be like, I think it's important that
we try to see a way that these
you know, like like, it's the same point.
Internet fighting back. Like, something like that. But,
honestly, my my gut, every way we anyway,
I'm like the opposite direction. You know? Go
back to flyers. Go back to pre tech
kind of solutions. I mean, that just seems
to be the obvious right now that makes
the most sense. But I'd like to believe
that there are ways we could find, you
you know, maneuver through this. Like, your the
Google phone. I mean, I do think that
is a positive step for most people. Like,
to at least try to pull themselves away
in any ways that they can. I I,
you know, I that's what I would leave.
I was gonna ask in general that like,
so
if if we get to a point I
mean, we can end on this if if
we're coming to that time.
If we got to a point, hypothetically, where,
you know, let's just say you got rid
of of all of the like, government didn't
exist or what, you know, hypothetical, no surveillance,
all the problems
that we're talking about didn't exist,
would you still think tech was necessary?
Like, do you think there's a you know,
like, kinda James' earlier question, but to the
furthest extent of it, like, if we got
beyond that, do we then will we just
completely go the other direction? What do you
mean? Would we just never talk to each
other again? Well, what do you mean? We
would go see each other in person. We
would you know, you know, like, the real
world kind of stuff. Like, look. This it's
about convenience. That's what it comes down to.
Like, yes. You're far away. And, yes, you
know, there are ways that I'm I'm not
talking, like, pre you know, use this use
a cord phone. I mean, it's it's a
it's a point of how far you wanna
go. Right? But there are a lot of
people that feel like, you know,
the the tech in and of itself was
kind of like the the direction that took
us in a bad path, like, whole Kosinski
kind of mindset. Right? And so you you
know, the question is if we got
beyond or, I guess, it just never happened
hypothetically where there was no surveillance, there was
any of these problems,
would you in your mindset or anybody in
this conversation, will we argue that tech would
that we would just get rid of it
entirely? Because you were saying, like, there are
ways that tech could be used beyond it.
So I would treat it like my diet.
Sorry. Go ahead.
Well, this it a very quick thing? It's
a very quick thing. You mentioned wired phones,
but are those even an option where you
guys live? Because
hardwired phones don't exist in this country anymore.
Like, the phone network, they will I I
over the Internet. I I could get I
have one more question actually. Telecoms in The
US are not required to upkeep their pots
lines.
So Yeah. Makes sense. Your mileage will vary.
Does that mean that mean it'll stop working
over time? Is that what that means? Yeah.
I mean, it's not guaranteed it's not guaranteed
to work. Of course. Ask them to install,
like, a direct plug for your computer these
days, and they'll look at you like you're
crazy. You know? It's but they'll still do
it, at least in at least Tennessee.
Ryan, I think I would still use technology
quite a lot. I just wouldn't actively
use technology.
Like, I would have maybe
a screen time of 20%
less than I do because I still wanna
learn about the world and stay in touch
with people. And I think it has a
really important function in that sense, not to
mention
kind of the automation,
in the garden
or,
in in the work. It's it is a
really useful thing. I don't think I'm not,
like,
being data driven is a good thing, I
think. It's a it shouldn't be it shouldn't
be
the only measure of success, but it is
it is a good thing, and and computers
are really, really helpful. It's just too bad
that,
most of the infrastructure is is owned by,
peep who are tyrants. It's it's just too
bad. There's a small and but growing number
of people who are using d googled phones.
And I do think this will be I
think the next few years, there are going
to be a number of apps that are
already very revolutionary.
I'll give you guys an example.
So what do you do if you can't
use the bank? Digital ID is already here.
Well, there's a, there's an app called Have
No Reto,
which is a it's a Monero marketplace, and
it's really amazing. You can you can put
your Monero on there, and then people can
pay you in in multiple different ways. They
can even send you cash in the mail.
Now it works. I'll say that much.
And,
it's one of the only peer to peer
marketplaces. So if there wasn't anything, I'd I'd
still see myself using a tool like that
in in some cases. But 80% of my
life, I wouldn't need to.
Yeah. I think I probably would do at
least at the beginning, you know, but, like,
I think my personal opinion is, you know,
like like, even with, like, you know, guard
no. I don't want any technology. I'd rather
be out. You know? But in some cases,
like you're saying, like, I probably wanna talk
to my friends that live in the other
part of the country. You know? But it's
it's an interesting thought, though, is to think
about. You know? Is it we rationalize certain
things now for certain reasons because of our
circumstances and would that change if we weren't
being put in this position? You know, it's
worth thinking about. Well,
I'm not American, so let me give you
the non American perspective on this. I, just
recently learned of something called the rotato,
which apparently rotates your potato so you can
peel so you can peel it while it's
I I don't know. That to me is
the wonders of modern technology and the reason
why I don't think we should go completely
Luddite.
No. More seriously,
I think there is a tendency. Like, you
know, conversations like this, I understand why they
tend to end up at that spot. Like,
yeah.
Undoubtedly, the more we go into the digital
realm, the more we are giving up of
our natural human ness. We wanna preserve our
human ness, so we gotta go in the
other direction. It kind of logically comes to
that conclusion. Okay. So let's get rid of
technology, at least to the extent possible.
But we are swimming upstream when we do
that in every possible way. Not just societally,
but against human nature itself. Because this technology
does not exist
just because it is useful for tyrannizing and
enslaving people. That's certainly an added bonus for
the psychopaths in the top of the kakasocracy,
but it's I don't think that's the reason
why it exists. It exists because as human
beings
we have the natural desire
for connection
and communication with other people.
And that extends beyond that. Our our,
rapacity
for human connection extends beyond the physical boundaries
of our neighborhood.
And
it may I'm sure it is true that
you will get more of a response to
physical flyers in your neighborhood than you will
to, you know, the 20,000 people on your
Facebook feed.
But those responses are limited in the geographical
confines of your local area.
If you want connection with the wider world,
there we need technology. And that is why
the technology
exists. We have been scrabbling and eking out
existences for thousands of years,
gradually building up technology to increase our ability
to move, to travel, to communicate. And I
don't think we can
discount that. I don't think we can work
against that. That's I think that's part of
human the human nature of what we what
we are as human beings, trying to reach
out, trying to connect with other people.
So I don't think it's as easy as
saying, let's just get rid of the digital
space and only go physical.
We can try, but
we, we would be swimming upstream. So
And a lot of it exists to make
your life easier, so you have more time
to play guitar or to hang out.
And indeed, like, we're sort of because there
is this pushback, we're
we're sort of losing sight of the reality
and that there is it is a pushback
against progress.
Like, the late nineties, February, 02/2010,
this technology
was a was a way was a totally,
new way for people to communicate. Like, it
did push things. Like, nine eleven truth would
never have taken off the way it did.
Right. In fact, it it took a few
years to take off because the technology had
to be there in order for people to
communicate
outside the usual channels. And, like, the old
media exists because of that technology. And all
of this verify your age, verify your identity,
it'll push back against the losing control of
the narrative that the technology itself facilitated.
Right. And that's that's always the important point.
That that's the kind of general point that
I'm like, when I the Internet
being a tool used arguably
to control us is now used to fight
back. You know, it's it's always an important
point. I mean, that's the same every time
we've had cryptocurrency conversations, it's always something we
include. Right? I mean, it's the ideas that,
you know, yes, you can argue you can
see clearly that all of it I mean,
that's the whole point about technology I argue
in general. Like and kinda what you're saying
there, kid, is some people may go, you
know, baby out with the bathwater kind of
thing where it's like, oh, this is bad
because, you know, and then, you know, ignore
possible
developments that could benefit and help. You know?
But I I I get it. I complete
I think we all understand why people have
that overreaction right now, sort of like, you
know, any number of things you can point
out. And I agree, though. I agree that
there's obvious uses where this continues to go.
I I so I just think it's a
individual choice. You know? And I think that's
that balance between your per your liberty
and your convenience. You know? Or or more
possible choices than that. And so I think
that's why this conversation is being had. And
I think the possible solutions you know, and
there's all the things we didn't even get
into. You know, VPNs, basic things we talked
about in order to help yourself stay private.
Right. You know?
I I was hoping, yes. I feel kind
of bad because that was the whole context
for this, and we haven't really proposed many
solutions.
So I just wanted to mention, mention a
few things. It's like we we will need,
alternative networks
that work not just over the Internet, but,
hopefully, our own radios, like long range radio
networks.
So there there's a few that people can
look up,
look into. One is Reticulum,
which is a framework for building,
decentralized
applications
and,
with any and with any mode of transport.
So it could be radios.
It could be connect your laptop connected to
the Internet. It could be your phone.
And, I have some friends in The UK,
their BCHAT network, and they're working on
radios that can actually travel 60 miles or
more using post quantum encryption.
If you wanna check them out, they're at
bchat.network.
And,
it's solutions like these that you might find
on households. Instead of relying on your nearest
cell towers, you might have to build a
tower
at your house, like like, twenty, forty feet
in the air, and and that could be
kinda cool. Those can be the low, high-tech
things that we use to, to stay in
touch with each other.
I I think that, what the viewer could
do today, if you're you're interested in this,
is to look at things like self hosting,
which is just the process of running your
own software at home. That will take you
down a rabbit hole that I've gone down
into myself into, you know, administering your own
server,
learning how the Internet works. But,
yeah, you can get to a place where
your own digital life is self sufficient. Then
you could start to help, your your friends
in the neighborhood. You could give them accounts
on your servers and stuff. So I think
those are two really valuable things you can
do.
For anyone who is worried about how the
phones play a part in this, you could
look at d Googled phones.
GrapheneOS
is obviously, I think, the de facto
most secure alternative operating system to date.
So really it's a really amazing, consistent project
that has it's not just an alternative. It's
actually better in a lot of ways than
standard
Google or Android. There are security features
in the processors themselves that,
Apple and Google have not implemented, that this
nonprofit open source
operating system has implemented.
And for that reason, a lot of the
authorities are pissed off because they can't break
into it.
More recently, we had, two people. There was
a there was a man, and there was
also Palestinian
activist,
get detained when they arrived into a country.
And now it's becoming commonplace for them to
take your phone. Well, would you want a
phone that they can break into, which any
normal phone could, or would you want a
phone that could resist against that? So I
encourage you to look into GrapheneOS.
And if you're technically inclined, you can de
Google it yourself.
If you wanted to purchase it out of
the box, that's what we do at abovephoneabovephone.com,
along with a bunch of other services that
I that I talked about. But I think
it's about having the education and tools necessary
to work outside of this technical grid if
you need to.
God forbid that this that this happens and
it is rolled out and that we do
have, many people who do not comply so
we can get our needs taken care of.
Hakim, sorry. Before before we go, you recently
talked about a really awesome interesting idea,
public pay phones
that are being provided
VOIP,
right, by people in various locations around The
States. Can you tell us about that?
Yes. So there was this, electrical
engineer in Vermont.
And, what he did, he was, when he
was growing up, there was a old payphone
in his garage.
And and payphones, they used to work off
the same old telephone lines as as landlines.
But nowadays, there's nothing to connect them to.
So, he,
there are a few different companies,
and he he noticed these, and he was
inspired to build his own payphone.
His his company is called Randtell, I think,
based off of his name. Then there's also
another one based in Philadelphia called Filtell, and
there's one in Portland called Futel.
And they've kind of got the, they've kind
of got this grungy vibe. But what I
really like about them is they build these
payphones, which have the analog
numbers that you can dial in, but there's
an adapter
which connects to a Wi Fi network and
send those sends those signals
over the Internet. So you can actually have
voice over Internet, and you can make the
call. But what's really cool
is that it's free. They're just giving it
as a community service. Here you go, neighborhood.
And,
Futel, specifically,
it's part of their mission because they're trying
to they're helping the unhoused,
because that's one of the things that happens,
is you don't have a you don't have
a permanent address. You don't have a phone
number that people can call you. And now
there's this free phone, as I like to
call them, which can become, like, the center
of a community,
in a way for people to stay in
touch. So, it's a really, really cool idea.
If you it's on,
episode,
I wanna say, 10 of of Take Backward
Tech.
So, check that out. Thanks for reminding me,
James. I'm I'm willing to bet you that
if not already, they'll find a way to
make that illegal or
something, you know, just as it always goes.
But it's a great I think that's a
fantastic idea. So the point is that more
individuals should do that and have them pop
up enough to where it's too hard to
stop. That's always the way to get around
that. You know? I love that. It's all
the whole Larkin Rose, like, their arms will
get tired. Right? Just keep doing it until
they just get overwhelmed.
You know, about the you know, his his
point is that, you know, if you're gonna
protest, they're gonna beat people, you know, and
ultimately, they're if there's enough of you protesting,
their arms will get tired, you know? Yeah.
There may be people get hit, you know?
But the reality is that there's too many
of you and it will persist. And I
saw Jairaj or whatever, right? Gandhi. That was
the whole concept.
Right. Right.
Well, I was going to just
VPNs being one of the obvious, you know,
potential things. And I think that's everyone pretty
much knows about that. I think there's ways
around it. But I'll just add to, you
know, the things that we always put out
there. You know, we already mentioned the
peer to peer with anything. You know, try
to find ways around the system, even with
your neighborhood, especially your neighbor. Do what they're
talking about with the phone. Start your own
little bodega in your house. You know, yeah.
They'll they'll get you make things illegal. The
point is find ways around an individual exchange.
Or I my point is always, and this
is my big thing for anything, is just
don't don't be a slave to whatever you
wanna call it, the obligation system. Don't your
phone beeps. Don't feel like you have to
engage with it. You know, put it in
the the pouch, you know,
check out of it. When somebody if my
if I'm in my house or not doing
it over obligation. Well, yeah. Well, I I
put it in the pouch. Actually, I just
got,
it's right here, actually. I just got one
of Is that, is that Solari's new pouch?
Yeah. She sent it to me. And so
I have one I've been using but this
one's especially I like this one a lot.
And so I you know, you put it
in there, you click it closed and I
every time which frustrates people because even middle
of the day I'll have it in there
and so I'm not get I'm not like
immediately engaging which is weird peep way people
respond to that today. But what I was
gonna say is that, like, my someone rings
my doorbell.
I don't like, unless I'm expecting somebody, I
don't feel like I'm obligated to get up
and look. People find that so crazy. I'm
like, I'll you know, it's not I'm not
interested. And I you know, I don't wanna
go find out who's trying to sell me
something. But it's that mindset when it comes
to any of these things. It's just don't
be a slave to the system. Don't feel
like you have to engage. You have to
check-in. I think that's just a mindset for
all of this. It'll help us pull away
from this. You know? And then, obviously, when
you want to, you can. That's the larger
point is that these these things can help
us connect and so on. And, you know,
I think this is a very important conversation.
We should probably make this like a routine,
you know, monthly kind of ongoing thing, to
be honest, like the new technology, what's continued
to happen. But we'll discuss that off air
more from the I'm in general. But, you
guys Kit, you wanna and, James, you wanna
give some last thoughts whoever you want before
we wrap up today?
Either one of you. What if you guys
any thoughts on solutions or things we didn't
mention, you know, as we wrap?
I can't think of anything.
In my defense, it is 01:34 in the
morning. Right? Oh my god. Okay. Yeah. Let's
wrap it up for you. Yeah. I think
I've said most of what I wanted to
say. And I'm sorry I wasn't more productive
in terms of actual digital solutions, but I
think there's so many societal
issues here that we have to sort through.
I will plug for you just to be
polite, your solutions watch series has got a
lot of good stuff in there. Yes. Like
RSS feeds, mailing lists, that kind of thing.
And email aliases, which I recently talked to,
Hakeem about. So thank you for that. And,
Hakeem, you will be, gratified to note that
I've received a lot of new subscriptions with
people with corporate report email aliases. So Nice.
Yeah. People are using it. Good. Doing it.
Now that that that just came up in
our conversation about the, the GiveWP thing. Right?
So it's funny how, you know, all these
different ways that overlaps. You know, it's important
these days. But I'll I'll include all things
we mentioned, Kim's website and the solution to
watch points. You know, I I think this
is, like I said, an important conversation. I'm
I'm glad to have with you guys because
I think this is gonna evolve and get
more important. And I think everyone in this
group is doing individual parts to make, you
know, find solutions. Now maybe, you know, I
I I know we didn't necessarily focus on,
like, only solutions, but I think the conversation
itself about these things and, you know, with
the solutions we did present, I do think
that's very helpful. And I think it's it's
sometimes important just kinda go at the problem
as well as present solutions. You know? So
I think it's a productive conversation. So thank
thank you all for being here. Any other
final thoughts before we wrap up?
We'll leave it there then for today. And
thank you all for being here, and I
look forward to seeing you on the next
Independent Media Alliance panel. And, I'll leave it
there. Thank you, guys. See you next time.
Blessings.