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We're gonna be discussing the idea of the

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false binary.

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What an illusion of choice does, it establishes

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the baseline assumptions that nobody questions.

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This is part of the fifth generation warfare

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that we've talked about. Voting for the lesser

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of two evils. Definitely an emotional, psychological

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insane ideology

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because you think you're winning. The role we

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have is media. How do we help everybody

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understand this is theater, and you need to

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get back into the real world?

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If you're opposed to the agenda, you should

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oppose it regardless of who's selling it to

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you.

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Welcome back to another episode of the Independent

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Media Alliance. We're here to discuss an important

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topic, something Hakeem here personally has a very

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big focus on entire his main focus as

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of his work in general is around

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finding ways to help us both fight using

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tech to fight back against what's coming, but

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also find ways to help protect yourself against

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what's there. Yeah. And really just always been.

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Like, before the technological advancements of the day,

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you know, there's always been people that have

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been trying to use the current status to

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manipulate people around them. And I think, you

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know, not even above and beyond the tech,

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we talk a lot about just ways you

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know, going back to the just vote with

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your dollar, things like that. Like, finding ways

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that we can just use our daily actions

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to help, you know, align with our principles

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and push back in what's what's building. And

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so that's generally the topic today of how

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we can use tech to fight back and

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find ways to insulate ourselves. And and I'm

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sure Akeem has a lot more to put

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on that, so I'll go ahead and throw

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it to you, Akeem, to start us off.

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Thanks, Ryan. You know, tech has become an

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issue that we can't ignore. In any freedom

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lover, they might be doing all the right

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things at home, growing their own food,

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finding their own ways to educate themselves, pulling

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their money out of the banks. All of

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that is all great. But, unfortunately, we can't

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ignore how technology has become an instrument

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for the institution.

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And so when major technology decisions happen, for

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instance, the Google antitrust,

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hearing this week, you really need to pay

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attention

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because

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these big tech companies are are really important

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to this, global agenda.

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So one of the things I've been looking

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at, is, digital ID.

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And it's really interesting how

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different parts of the world, whether it's the

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the Western digital ID schemes or

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even,

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countries you might have not expected, like Mexico

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and Pakistan,

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how similarly

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they are structured.

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And they're all structured

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to,

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be able to say, hey. We didn't force

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anyone into this,

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but it's it's this thing that I'm calling

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mandate by proxy

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where they kind of pass the buck on

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to,

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the the important service providers, whether that's the

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banks,

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whether, that's the website that you would normally

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access without error verification,

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whether,

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that's public services. And they pass the buck

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on saying, hey. It's it's we're not gonna

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force it on you. It's gonna be up

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to these providers.

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And so to have solutions and alternatives in

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your technology is one of the most important

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things you can do today. So I hope

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we can dig into that, a little bit,

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and I'm happy to share, solutions that I

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have.

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For anyone who doesn't know my work, I

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I write about technology on my blog, takebackourtech.org.

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And, I also have a privacy company called

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Above where we make d googled phones,

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Linux laptops, things are that are important. And,

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we'll talk about today, like,

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how understanding

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how these systems work is is really important

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to the solutions we use. But I don't

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think anyone stranger,

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is a stranger here to online privacy.

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So I'm interested in in kinda what you

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guys are are doing too to keep yourself

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safe online.

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Yeah. And it's a good place to, you

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know, start in general. You know? I think

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we all probably have different views. I mean,

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not in the sense of what we're fighting

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back against, but, like, ways you might use

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certain things to push back on. And so

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let's, you know, go ahead and jump around

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here and and let, James and and Kit

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kinda give their own perspectives on this. And

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then, I guess, we can just get right

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into, like, the most important ways that we

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think we can use this. And I would

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like to go into some of the things

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you were talking about too, Akeem, like the

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interesting overlap and even the the antitrust idea

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and what that might mean going forward. But,

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go ahead, James if you wanna start next.

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Alright. Sure. Let me, let me frame this

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in a way that's,

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I'm just thinking off the top of my

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head, but it occurs to me because I

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just recently took a little trip to Malaysia,

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which,

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people will see why very soon because I'll

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have a report coming out on that. But,

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while I was there, I had an experience

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that I've had a few times while traveling

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in recent years, which is,

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remembering that the rest of the world is

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not like Japan.

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And so how did this occur to me?

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Well, first of all, the little issue of

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the hotel breakfast that I was eating in

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the morning,

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and how do I pay for the hotel

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breakfast? Well, of course, I have Malaysian ringgit.

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I have literal cash.

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So I'm just gonna go up and okay.

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I'll pay for my breakfast now. Here's the

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money.

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Cash? Oh,

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I think we can do that. And they

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have to call someone over to get the

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cash register and whatever. And, like, oh, yeah.

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This this stuff. Yeah. Okay. You can have

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some of this and blah blah. Okay. And

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then the next morning, I go to get

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the hotel breakfast again. I go to pay

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for cash. This time, they won't do it

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at all. They're like, nope. Sorry.

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Cashless or nothing. I'm like, well, I don't

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have a card, so I guess I'm eating

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for free,

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which they actually agreed with me. Okay. I

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guess so.

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You there's no way to pay. You have

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these pieces of paper.

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The next day, I decide, oh, you know

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what? I'll do something else than this stupid

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breakfast dance of the cashless thing. I I'm

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just gonna go somewhere else outside the hotel.

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I'm gonna get something else.

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And go to the restaurant, sit down.

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What's the first thing I see?

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Look at the menu. Oh, okay. That looks

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good. I'm gonna have that. Look around for

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the waiter

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until I realize, oh, there's the little QR

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code on the table.

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I'm gonna have to scan my order in

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because I can't

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flag down one of these people, these human

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beings that are walking around the restaurant who

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could take my order. No. No. No. You

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gotta do it through the app on the

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QR code thing.

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But I'm in Malaysia. I don't have cell

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service. I don't have WiFi in this particular

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location. So I literally can't. I'm gonna have

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to flag someone down.

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So so I walk I'm like, okay. This

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is stupid. I'm not gonna support this. I

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walk out. I'm gonna I'm gonna support a

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business that takes cash. So I walk into

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some other cafe,

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sit down to order something,

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order my order, and then

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how are you gonna pay? Cash? No. No.

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No. It's cashless only. So so I start

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to walk out. And the guy at the,

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the counter is like, no. No. No. You

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give me the cash, I'll pay for you.

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And so he pays with his phone while

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I can

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this I've had this experience

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in recent years when I travel because, hey,

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I'm in Japan where cash is still mostly

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relatively king and you can pay for cash

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anywhere, anytime. And I'm forgetting that the rest

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of the world is gradually becoming more and

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more cashless. What does this mean?

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We are moving from Hakeem, you will know

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the term SAAS,

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software as a service. I don't know how

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you techie people say that. Is it SaaS?

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Or SaaS. Know.

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Sassy with it. SaaS.

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We we are moving

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to a world that is p p

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a

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a s.

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Pat.

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I I will have to come up with

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a snappier term for that, but it's public

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participation

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as a service.

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It's you have to be subscribed. You have

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to have your cell service. You have to

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have the smartphone. You have to have the

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QR code. You have to have the digital

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ID. You have to have the card in

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order to

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just participate in public life, in order to

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just order your

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goddamn breakfast. I mean, it's I don't know

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how to say how utterly

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I'm I'm glad that I have the experience

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of being so

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othered from this this cashless thing that's coming

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into everybody's lives. Because when I do travel,

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I see it from a complete outsider perspective.

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It's not the little gradual boiling frog in

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the pot

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just getting a little bit warmer every no.

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I jump right into the deep end and,

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oh my god, I'm boiling alive. Somebody get

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me out of here. And everybody else is

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just going about their business as if this

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is usual. This is not usual. And we

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are giving up our right

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to participate in everyday public life. Every time

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we're scanning the code in order to, you

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know, order a meal, every time we're using

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that digital payment, we're giving up our ability

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to participate without having those services. And that

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to me is such a fundamental bedrock issue

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that in a way, it goes beyond the

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technology.

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Of course, the technology exists and we can

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find ways to use it to our advantage

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or whatever, blah blah blah. But no, it's

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the fact of the infrastructure itself that requires

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that technological layer. I think we have to

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start

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screening and carving out the space to have

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the non technological

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life that I think we will need if

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we do not want to move to the

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past

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system.

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It really does speak to the core idea

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of liberty in this context. And my, first

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thing that jumps to my mind is, well,

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there's exactly you know, vote with your dollar

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except, oh, you can't, you know, because of

270
00:09:06,495 --> 00:09:08,735
exactly that system, which I just think is

271
00:09:08,735 --> 00:09:10,335
obvious. You know? I I have thoughts on

272
00:09:10,335 --> 00:09:12,174
QR codes and plenty of stuff, but I'll

273
00:09:12,174 --> 00:09:13,774
I'll throw it to Kit if, he wants

274
00:09:13,774 --> 00:09:15,615
to give his thoughts before we jump around

275
00:09:15,615 --> 00:09:16,754
first. Well, I mean,

276
00:09:17,570 --> 00:09:19,409
I just wanted to share first just on

277
00:09:19,409 --> 00:09:20,870
the caches thing. You've

278
00:09:21,330 --> 00:09:23,649
you've probably all familiar with just how many

279
00:09:23,649 --> 00:09:25,429
caches bad stories there are.

280
00:09:26,289 --> 00:09:28,129
I saw the funniest one I've I've seen

281
00:09:28,129 --> 00:09:30,690
in years. Just just earlier this week, somebody

282
00:09:30,690 --> 00:09:31,649
sent it to me.

283
00:09:32,345 --> 00:09:34,285
The fact that people aren't using coins anymore

284
00:09:34,825 --> 00:09:37,144
means that fewer children are swallowing coins and

285
00:09:37,144 --> 00:09:39,144
being in the emergency room. So cash in

286
00:09:39,144 --> 00:09:41,485
society is really great. It's saving kids' lives.

287
00:09:44,024 --> 00:09:46,559
Oh, thank god for this digital pay payment.

288
00:09:46,639 --> 00:09:47,840
Yeah. And the cost of

289
00:09:49,039 --> 00:09:51,519
In some ways, I would say regarding, like,

290
00:09:51,519 --> 00:09:54,740
the whole public services subscription model QR codes

291
00:09:54,799 --> 00:09:56,100
thing, we are

292
00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:58,820
sort of gonna be in a position where

293
00:10:00,205 --> 00:10:02,044
I think sort of it will be bad

294
00:10:02,044 --> 00:10:03,965
and then it will get better because people

295
00:10:03,965 --> 00:10:06,924
will people will still want to benefit themselves.

296
00:10:06,924 --> 00:10:09,184
And people will point, you know, like, essentially,

297
00:10:09,245 --> 00:10:11,245
what you could call black markets will emerge.

298
00:10:11,245 --> 00:10:13,245
Businesses that will take cash will emerge because

299
00:10:13,245 --> 00:10:15,059
there will be a market for it. So

300
00:10:15,059 --> 00:10:16,820
you can sort of rely on self interest,

301
00:10:16,820 --> 00:10:18,120
I think, to counter it

302
00:10:18,580 --> 00:10:19,080
eventually.

303
00:10:19,620 --> 00:10:21,059
But there will be a period where that

304
00:10:21,059 --> 00:10:21,879
doesn't happen.

305
00:10:23,620 --> 00:10:26,100
Regarding, like, my experience of it, which it's

306
00:10:26,100 --> 00:10:28,440
not so bad in The UK yet.

307
00:10:30,125 --> 00:10:32,445
The Cash Society is still we're we're at

308
00:10:32,445 --> 00:10:33,024
the forefront,

309
00:10:33,725 --> 00:10:35,325
you know, leading the way in many other

310
00:10:35,325 --> 00:10:37,485
really quite terrible things, but you can still

311
00:10:37,485 --> 00:10:39,325
pay with cash. And a lot of people

312
00:10:39,404 --> 00:10:41,565
I've had a lot of experiences of taxis

313
00:10:41,565 --> 00:10:43,884
and window cleaners and and tipping various people

314
00:10:43,884 --> 00:10:45,920
at the end. They specifically asked for cash

315
00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:46,420
for

316
00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:48,340
fairly obvious reasons.

317
00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:50,940
You know, you don't you don't pay tax

318
00:10:50,940 --> 00:10:52,980
on on cash and so on.

319
00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:56,559
So there is a a thriving cash thing

320
00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:58,000
in The UK and I think even more

321
00:10:58,000 --> 00:10:59,774
so in The US at the moment still.

322
00:11:01,215 --> 00:11:03,695
But the the The UK is much worse

323
00:11:03,695 --> 00:11:05,934
than the whole age verification thing. Obviously, it's

324
00:11:05,934 --> 00:11:07,555
one of the main reasons we're here.

325
00:11:08,175 --> 00:11:10,434
That is dreadful. And it was so

326
00:11:10,815 --> 00:11:13,615
so signposted when the Australia brought it in

327
00:11:13,615 --> 00:11:15,710
first. It was so obvious. Well, we're gonna

328
00:11:15,710 --> 00:11:18,110
protect the kids by making sure nobody 16

329
00:11:18,110 --> 00:11:20,350
has social media, which means everybody 16 has

330
00:11:20,350 --> 00:11:23,070
to prove they're 16, obviously. Right. Nobody reported

331
00:11:23,070 --> 00:11:24,049
that at the time.

332
00:11:25,710 --> 00:11:26,830
Can I can I ask you a question

333
00:11:26,830 --> 00:11:28,634
real quick for for actually, the well, I

334
00:11:28,634 --> 00:11:29,835
think you're in a different place as well,

335
00:11:29,835 --> 00:11:32,575
Akeem? In general, anybody outside The United States,

336
00:11:32,795 --> 00:11:34,475
is it the same like, on on a

337
00:11:34,475 --> 00:11:35,915
US bill, it says, you know, this is

338
00:11:35,915 --> 00:11:37,595
legal tender, like any of the legal re

339
00:11:37,754 --> 00:11:39,435
is that the same overlap in other countries?

340
00:11:39,435 --> 00:11:41,295
Is it there are, like, a legal obligation

341
00:11:41,355 --> 00:11:43,790
for businesses even though that tech even today,

342
00:11:43,790 --> 00:11:45,870
that's not they don't nobody enforces that. But

343
00:11:45,870 --> 00:11:47,950
technically speaking, they're supposed to be legally bound

344
00:11:47,950 --> 00:11:49,470
to take it. Is that the same outside

345
00:11:49,470 --> 00:11:50,450
of The United States?

346
00:11:51,470 --> 00:11:52,370
Funnily enough,

347
00:11:52,910 --> 00:11:53,970
I have no idea.

348
00:11:55,495 --> 00:11:57,434
Well, I'm just I'm sorry. It's the pervasiveness

349
00:11:57,495 --> 00:11:59,014
of your culture is that I'm more familiar

350
00:11:59,014 --> 00:12:00,375
with that as an American idea than a

351
00:12:00,375 --> 00:12:02,855
British idea. Which is crazy. Because I've seen

352
00:12:02,855 --> 00:12:04,215
it in movies and stuff. Yeah. I know.

353
00:12:04,215 --> 00:12:06,215
They are legally obliged to take 10 I

354
00:12:06,215 --> 00:12:07,095
think there are,

355
00:12:07,654 --> 00:12:09,095
there are laws about it. I think in

356
00:12:09,095 --> 00:12:10,169
Scotland, which has

357
00:12:10,730 --> 00:12:13,289
some sturdier financial laws about having to take

358
00:12:13,289 --> 00:12:15,049
certain things as legal tender. I'm not sure

359
00:12:15,049 --> 00:12:15,789
about England.

360
00:12:16,409 --> 00:12:18,250
It's it's a good place to start this

361
00:12:18,250 --> 00:12:18,750
conversation.

362
00:12:19,690 --> 00:12:22,169
And, having been to Japan, I know James

363
00:12:22,169 --> 00:12:25,049
is spoiled with the amazing cash machines that

364
00:12:25,049 --> 00:12:26,975
smile and and and talk to you in

365
00:12:26,975 --> 00:12:28,975
a nice voice, give you the exact change.

366
00:12:28,975 --> 00:12:30,995
So, so cool. But, unfortunately,

367
00:12:32,174 --> 00:12:34,274
this seems to be happening everywhere

368
00:12:34,654 --> 00:12:36,575
in the world at at around the same

369
00:12:36,575 --> 00:12:38,894
time, at around the 2027,

370
00:12:39,215 --> 00:12:39,955
time frame.

371
00:12:40,519 --> 00:12:42,299
And it's very interesting how,

372
00:12:42,919 --> 00:12:44,379
these digital ID programs

373
00:12:44,919 --> 00:12:46,840
are synced up. I would think that the

374
00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,160
in person stuff is a little bit easier

375
00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:49,820
to solve

376
00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,440
in the sense that if the food vendor

377
00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,120
down the street, the cafe down the street

378
00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,455
is is requiring this crap, get up

379
00:12:56,835 --> 00:12:58,615
and ask your friend to start a cafe,

380
00:12:58,754 --> 00:13:00,674
find a cafe that accepts cash, and and

381
00:13:00,674 --> 00:13:02,674
make that your place. Right? At least there's

382
00:13:02,674 --> 00:13:03,254
a workaround

383
00:13:03,794 --> 00:13:05,794
for, for a lot of things. I mean,

384
00:13:05,794 --> 00:13:07,715
the Internet is is going to change at

385
00:13:07,715 --> 00:13:09,654
large, and I've been looking into,

386
00:13:10,730 --> 00:13:11,470
The UK,

387
00:13:11,850 --> 00:13:14,170
gov ID system. And what a lot of

388
00:13:14,170 --> 00:13:16,170
people don't see is that it's not just

389
00:13:16,170 --> 00:13:19,210
the digital ID. There's this whole ecosystem around

390
00:13:19,210 --> 00:13:22,009
it. For instance, UK gov has single sign

391
00:13:22,009 --> 00:13:24,664
on. So if you go if you remember

392
00:13:24,664 --> 00:13:26,745
visiting websites and and going to log in,

393
00:13:26,745 --> 00:13:28,664
how they have these different providers, you can

394
00:13:28,664 --> 00:13:30,845
sign them in with sign in with Gmail,

395
00:13:30,904 --> 00:13:33,324
sign in with Instagram. Soon, it's gonna be

396
00:13:33,384 --> 00:13:35,245
sign in with your government ID.

397
00:13:36,309 --> 00:13:39,669
And when we reach that chapter, then then

398
00:13:39,669 --> 00:13:41,429
it's it's kind of it's kind of a

399
00:13:41,429 --> 00:13:44,710
ticking, ticking time bomb for for more people

400
00:13:44,710 --> 00:13:46,470
to adopt the ID, for more people to

401
00:13:46,470 --> 00:13:47,929
sign on to these things online,

402
00:13:48,485 --> 00:13:50,184
to to a point where,

403
00:13:51,125 --> 00:13:54,324
either the other services like Facebook, whatever you're

404
00:13:54,324 --> 00:13:56,644
logging in with, also have a dependence on

405
00:13:56,644 --> 00:13:59,365
the government ID, or they simply just block

406
00:13:59,365 --> 00:14:02,220
everyone else off. So for to access your

407
00:14:02,220 --> 00:14:05,259
bank account online, you know, there's there's not

408
00:14:05,259 --> 00:14:07,500
really a better option than that or to,

409
00:14:07,500 --> 00:14:08,879
you know, access YouTube.

410
00:14:09,259 --> 00:14:11,419
You're not really gonna have a choice. So

411
00:14:11,419 --> 00:14:12,860
I do think keeping the,

412
00:14:14,975 --> 00:14:16,034
the in person,

413
00:14:16,414 --> 00:14:18,574
separate from the digital is is just an

414
00:14:18,574 --> 00:14:20,434
interesting aspect of it.

415
00:14:21,375 --> 00:14:22,815
What what do you but what do you

416
00:14:22,815 --> 00:14:24,174
mean by that exactly? Just so I I

417
00:14:24,174 --> 00:14:26,334
I agree in general, but you mean, like,

418
00:14:26,334 --> 00:14:28,095
don't get a digital ID? I feel like

419
00:14:28,095 --> 00:14:29,454
there's more to that what you're saying. Can

420
00:14:29,454 --> 00:14:30,389
you flush that out?

421
00:14:31,429 --> 00:14:32,170
Yeah. So

422
00:14:32,710 --> 00:14:33,210
the,

423
00:14:33,670 --> 00:14:36,710
digital ID system, it's it's it's kind of

424
00:14:36,710 --> 00:14:38,809
going hand in hand with with age verification.

425
00:14:39,590 --> 00:14:42,309
And so, for instance, The UK, there's this

426
00:14:42,309 --> 00:14:44,389
rumor that they're pushing their wallet back three

427
00:14:44,389 --> 00:14:44,889
years.

428
00:14:45,664 --> 00:14:47,764
Australia's wallet is going to be

429
00:14:48,784 --> 00:14:50,164
is ready this year.

430
00:14:50,704 --> 00:14:53,105
The EU, the wallet is gonna be ready

431
00:14:53,105 --> 00:14:55,184
next year, and and people can go ahead

432
00:14:55,184 --> 00:14:56,565
and sign up if they want.

433
00:14:57,740 --> 00:15:00,539
And, EU states are required to have the

434
00:15:00,539 --> 00:15:03,579
Wallet app available. Now there's something interesting in

435
00:15:03,579 --> 00:15:06,159
how big tech is is being used

436
00:15:06,860 --> 00:15:08,940
in a way so that these,

437
00:15:09,339 --> 00:15:10,159
these controls

438
00:15:10,539 --> 00:15:12,595
cannot be broken. What I mean by that

439
00:15:12,595 --> 00:15:14,754
is so you can't spoof the digital ID.

440
00:15:14,754 --> 00:15:17,555
They are super aware of that and will

441
00:15:17,555 --> 00:15:20,035
will not let you sidestep it, get around

442
00:15:20,035 --> 00:15:20,535
it.

443
00:15:21,075 --> 00:15:22,995
So when I was reading The UK gov

444
00:15:22,995 --> 00:15:23,495
policies,

445
00:15:24,289 --> 00:15:26,149
even when they talk about verification,

446
00:15:26,529 --> 00:15:28,129
like, you know, you're at the airport, the

447
00:15:28,129 --> 00:15:30,209
TSA officer, whoever, they kind of look at

448
00:15:30,209 --> 00:15:33,490
your name and face. So anyone performing these

449
00:15:33,490 --> 00:15:36,370
verifications in person or online has to be

450
00:15:36,370 --> 00:15:38,355
certified to do it. Right? So those are

451
00:15:38,355 --> 00:15:40,294
just some of the examples of this verification.

452
00:15:41,475 --> 00:15:42,934
And that's gonna happen online,

453
00:15:43,315 --> 00:15:45,335
and it is also gonna happen in person.

454
00:15:45,955 --> 00:15:46,274
Now,

455
00:15:46,995 --> 00:15:48,595
it's it's gonna be a little bit of

456
00:15:48,595 --> 00:15:49,254
a repeat,

457
00:15:49,875 --> 00:15:52,660
like, kind of the the past decade where

458
00:15:52,660 --> 00:15:53,320
we saw

459
00:15:53,620 --> 00:15:55,779
the rise of bots and spam and everything,

460
00:15:55,779 --> 00:15:57,960
and you started to see those captures everywhere.

461
00:15:58,180 --> 00:16:01,379
You started to see cloud flare everywhere, currently

462
00:16:01,379 --> 00:16:03,764
verifying your connection thing. So you're gonna start

463
00:16:03,764 --> 00:16:05,764
to see more of these gates that you're

464
00:16:05,764 --> 00:16:06,985
gonna have to walk through,

465
00:16:07,365 --> 00:16:09,204
and they're gonna make it a lot easier

466
00:16:09,204 --> 00:16:11,684
for you if you have your digital ID

467
00:16:11,684 --> 00:16:12,825
versus when you won't.

468
00:16:13,445 --> 00:16:15,524
There's there's gonna be a need for a

469
00:16:15,524 --> 00:16:16,825
lot of digital alternatives.

470
00:16:17,524 --> 00:16:17,764
So,

471
00:16:18,830 --> 00:16:20,669
I I think that's one thing to, look

472
00:16:20,669 --> 00:16:23,629
out for. Now going back to, big tech

473
00:16:23,629 --> 00:16:26,029
and and their role in this, two very

474
00:16:26,029 --> 00:16:27,889
important things they did this year

475
00:16:28,269 --> 00:16:28,769
was,

476
00:16:29,629 --> 00:16:32,574
one, they released the developer age

477
00:16:33,134 --> 00:16:34,194
developer verification

478
00:16:34,574 --> 00:16:37,454
program. Google did that. Now anyone who uses

479
00:16:37,454 --> 00:16:39,634
a phone, you know, you you may know

480
00:16:39,774 --> 00:16:41,615
if you use a Google phone, you can

481
00:16:41,615 --> 00:16:43,074
install an app from anywhere.

482
00:16:43,534 --> 00:16:45,774
It doesn't necessarily need to come from the

483
00:16:45,774 --> 00:16:48,070
Google Play Store. It can you can download

484
00:16:48,070 --> 00:16:49,450
it directly from a website.

485
00:16:50,389 --> 00:16:51,450
Well, that's changing

486
00:16:51,910 --> 00:16:53,370
come 2027.

487
00:16:53,590 --> 00:16:56,309
And in 2026, there's a pilot in five

488
00:16:56,309 --> 00:16:56,790
five,

489
00:16:57,669 --> 00:16:59,129
Southeast Asian countries.

490
00:16:59,705 --> 00:17:00,205
And,

491
00:17:01,225 --> 00:17:04,424
after this happens, there's literally a fracturing right

492
00:17:04,424 --> 00:17:05,244
down the middle

493
00:17:05,545 --> 00:17:08,265
where if you have a normal phone, you

494
00:17:08,265 --> 00:17:10,424
don't have alternatives for the apps that you

495
00:17:10,424 --> 00:17:11,085
can use.

496
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,880
And there's already a fracturing on the other

497
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,240
side. Google's released what they call Google Play

498
00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:17,740
Integrity,

499
00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,160
which is, it's it's kind of branded as

500
00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:23,480
a security thing. It's like, alright. Make sure

501
00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:25,340
the phone is secure enough so,

502
00:17:25,985 --> 00:17:27,684
no one can use this app maliciously.

503
00:17:28,384 --> 00:17:29,125
But in reality,

504
00:17:29,424 --> 00:17:30,164
it's insecure,

505
00:17:30,625 --> 00:17:32,705
and all it's doing is checking whether this

506
00:17:32,705 --> 00:17:35,365
is a licensed Google phone. So the manufacturer

507
00:17:36,065 --> 00:17:37,684
has a partnership with Google,

508
00:17:38,144 --> 00:17:40,565
so that open source software can't be used.

509
00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:42,799
And I think this is really telling Google

510
00:17:42,799 --> 00:17:45,039
made these two moves this year because it

511
00:17:45,039 --> 00:17:47,759
shows that the Googled phones are a threat.

512
00:17:47,759 --> 00:17:49,600
Believe it or not, it's actually a threat

513
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:50,259
to them.

514
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:52,660
I'll finish with this.

515
00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:53,940
Jack Dorsey,

516
00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,100
whatever you might think about him,

517
00:17:56,615 --> 00:17:58,535
and this goes into the whole AI discussion,

518
00:17:58,535 --> 00:18:01,035
but he built that, Bluetooth messenger,

519
00:18:01,414 --> 00:18:02,234
and, supposedly,

520
00:18:02,775 --> 00:18:03,994
he did it in a weekend.

521
00:18:04,455 --> 00:18:06,695
So Jack Dorsey being, you know, being a

522
00:18:06,695 --> 00:18:08,154
smart guy, being a software engineer,

523
00:18:08,690 --> 00:18:10,690
cofounder of Twitter and all that. Okay. He

524
00:18:10,690 --> 00:18:12,529
can do that. But what happens when more

525
00:18:12,529 --> 00:18:14,549
and more people start to build solutions?

526
00:18:15,569 --> 00:18:18,609
Google does not want those apps installed on

527
00:18:18,609 --> 00:18:20,450
all the phones. So they're they're planning ahead

528
00:18:20,450 --> 00:18:21,430
and making sure

529
00:18:21,734 --> 00:18:23,974
people are cut off. So that's why I'm

530
00:18:23,974 --> 00:18:25,974
paying attention to it, at least the digital

531
00:18:25,974 --> 00:18:26,474
side.

532
00:18:27,815 --> 00:18:29,494
Well, let let's start with let's get into

533
00:18:29,575 --> 00:18:30,934
you know, because there's many ways you could

534
00:18:30,934 --> 00:18:32,615
come at this. Like, one side is obviously,

535
00:18:32,615 --> 00:18:35,250
like, waste insulate yourself away from these things,

536
00:18:35,250 --> 00:18:36,930
and other others, you know, more than just

537
00:18:36,930 --> 00:18:38,049
two. But other way to look at it

538
00:18:38,049 --> 00:18:39,569
would be think ways to use this stuff

539
00:18:39,569 --> 00:18:41,569
to essentially fight back from within. And so

540
00:18:41,569 --> 00:18:43,170
you're talking about the phone in in one

541
00:18:43,170 --> 00:18:44,609
part of it there. I think it's a

542
00:18:44,609 --> 00:18:46,849
really important I mean, obviously, I think they

543
00:18:46,849 --> 00:18:48,450
recognize what you're doing and what others are

544
00:18:48,450 --> 00:18:50,690
doing as a threat because it allows people

545
00:18:50,690 --> 00:18:52,525
to, at least at the moment,

546
00:18:52,904 --> 00:18:55,224
circumvent the system that's necessary to control and

547
00:18:55,224 --> 00:18:57,065
surveil and all of that. And so, obviously,

548
00:18:57,065 --> 00:18:58,744
we'll include your your link and everything in

549
00:18:58,744 --> 00:19:00,184
the show notes, so I recommend people check

550
00:19:00,184 --> 00:19:01,785
that out. So we can talk the phone

551
00:19:01,785 --> 00:19:02,984
side of that, I think, is important to

552
00:19:02,984 --> 00:19:05,164
start with because you've got, like, Eric Prince

553
00:19:05,269 --> 00:19:07,190
with his fake megaphone that actually was built

554
00:19:07,190 --> 00:19:08,950
partly in China, built by Israel. You know,

555
00:19:08,950 --> 00:19:10,309
it's like these all these things and that

556
00:19:10,309 --> 00:19:11,750
went away. And now you've got this one

557
00:19:11,750 --> 00:19:13,190
that floated for a minute that Trump started

558
00:19:13,190 --> 00:19:14,629
and that just kinda disappeared because it turned

559
00:19:14,629 --> 00:19:16,069
out it was put together in China. It's

560
00:19:16,069 --> 00:19:17,829
very it's interesting, you know? So clearly, I

561
00:19:17,829 --> 00:19:19,190
think that's a major part of it. But

562
00:19:19,190 --> 00:19:21,044
what other elements of this do we think

563
00:19:21,044 --> 00:19:22,904
are ways that we could, you know

564
00:19:23,204 --> 00:19:24,964
either way that goes, you know? Like, ways

565
00:19:24,964 --> 00:19:26,325
that we could use the tech to fight

566
00:19:26,325 --> 00:19:27,845
back. But, like, see, like tech, you're still

567
00:19:27,845 --> 00:19:29,924
using a phone. You're still accessing all the

568
00:19:29,924 --> 00:19:32,484
tech. So some out there, purists might argue

569
00:19:32,484 --> 00:19:33,764
that is even too far. You know, there's

570
00:19:33,764 --> 00:19:34,919
a line there, but other ways do you

571
00:19:34,919 --> 00:19:36,279
guys think you can use this stuff to

572
00:19:36,279 --> 00:19:37,799
fight back? Even on the phone side of

573
00:19:37,799 --> 00:19:39,099
it, wherever you wanna go with it.

574
00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:41,079
Just wait for Elon Musk to bring out

575
00:19:41,079 --> 00:19:41,740
the expo.

576
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,319
It'll be fine. Is he doing that? Oh,

577
00:19:44,319 --> 00:19:45,960
I'm I'm sure I mean, he there was

578
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:47,804
definitely something about an expo, wasn't it? I'm

579
00:19:47,804 --> 00:19:47,846
sure. I'm sure. I mean, he there was

580
00:19:47,846 --> 00:19:48,039
definitely something about an expo, wasn't it? I'm

581
00:19:48,039 --> 00:19:48,539
sure.

582
00:19:50,474 --> 00:19:51,275
And you have you have to sign up

583
00:19:51,275 --> 00:19:52,474
for the America Party, and then you'll get

584
00:19:52,474 --> 00:19:54,075
the expo in the mail. It'll all work

585
00:19:54,075 --> 00:19:54,575
out.

586
00:19:56,234 --> 00:19:57,914
So I have an example. One of the

587
00:19:57,914 --> 00:19:59,994
things that they'll go after first, which we

588
00:19:59,994 --> 00:20:01,775
already see from from Pakistan,

589
00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:04,920
which has they've been doing a digital ID

590
00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:06,220
since 02/2001.

591
00:20:06,279 --> 00:20:08,619
So in Pakistan, if you want cell service,

592
00:20:09,559 --> 00:20:12,039
you need to, yeah, you need to have

593
00:20:12,039 --> 00:20:14,299
a digital ID. So here is a solution

594
00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:16,519
that currently works. Am I is this screen

595
00:20:16,519 --> 00:20:18,255
the right way? Can you guys see that?

596
00:20:18,335 --> 00:20:20,095
So that's small. That's air. I can. Yeah.

597
00:20:20,095 --> 00:20:22,734
Go ahead. Okay. So so this is one

598
00:20:22,734 --> 00:20:24,815
solution we have is is part of above

599
00:20:24,815 --> 00:20:25,315
phone.

600
00:20:25,934 --> 00:20:27,615
And so if I go to Bob Smith

601
00:20:27,615 --> 00:20:29,075
here, this is thankfully

602
00:20:29,694 --> 00:20:30,595
to the

603
00:20:31,214 --> 00:20:32,194
more lax.

604
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,279
Yeah, more lax cell provider laws in The

605
00:20:36,279 --> 00:20:38,440
US where you can still get an Internet

606
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:39,960
phone number. So you see this thing that

607
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:41,180
looks like a phone number.

608
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:43,799
I could use this anywhere in the world.

609
00:20:43,799 --> 00:20:45,640
I don't need a SIM card. I just

610
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:47,634
need to be connected to the Internet. So

611
00:20:47,634 --> 00:20:49,815
I could be at a cafe in Austria

612
00:20:50,115 --> 00:20:51,095
and still use

613
00:20:51,394 --> 00:20:53,794
this. Albeit, I do have a US or

614
00:20:53,794 --> 00:20:56,434
Canada country code. Those are the only phone

615
00:20:56,434 --> 00:20:58,595
numbers you can get with this service, but

616
00:20:58,595 --> 00:20:59,875
I can still use it. I can use

617
00:20:59,875 --> 00:21:01,154
it to call. I can use it to

618
00:21:01,154 --> 00:21:01,654
text.

619
00:21:01,980 --> 00:21:04,380
Now that is still the layer where we're

620
00:21:04,380 --> 00:21:06,299
bridging worlds. That's when we need to talk

621
00:21:06,299 --> 00:21:08,779
to people on on the phone network. Super

622
00:21:08,779 --> 00:21:11,579
common. This also allows for international calls and

623
00:21:11,579 --> 00:21:12,079
stuff.

624
00:21:12,380 --> 00:21:13,359
The next layer

625
00:21:14,380 --> 00:21:15,039
is actually

626
00:21:16,294 --> 00:21:20,214
is actually using decentralized messaging tools, which I

627
00:21:20,214 --> 00:21:22,934
had a great interview with, James where we

628
00:21:22,934 --> 00:21:24,134
got to talk about this a little bit.

629
00:21:24,134 --> 00:21:25,434
We got to talk about XMPP.

630
00:21:26,214 --> 00:21:28,694
And, you know, that that's a solution that

631
00:21:28,694 --> 00:21:29,914
anyone can run,

632
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:31,759
in any country. You could burn it on

633
00:21:31,759 --> 00:21:32,900
a computer at home.

634
00:21:33,519 --> 00:21:34,019
And,

635
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,380
what's really important is we start investing

636
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:39,220
in this infrastructure,

637
00:21:39,759 --> 00:21:41,539
locally. We start to run

638
00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:42,420
more

639
00:21:42,974 --> 00:21:46,654
companies or even services that provide these services

640
00:21:46,654 --> 00:21:49,375
for people within the country so people still

641
00:21:49,375 --> 00:21:51,214
have a way to communicate. Because at a

642
00:21:51,214 --> 00:21:52,894
certain point, I mean, this voice over Internet

643
00:21:52,894 --> 00:21:54,414
protocol is great. I give it about

644
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,240
I would be very surprised if we still

645
00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:58,919
have the same level of access that we

646
00:21:58,919 --> 00:22:02,039
do in about five years. Sorry. Hakim, I

647
00:22:02,039 --> 00:22:03,720
just I know I just in the last

648
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,119
day or two read an article about a

649
00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,099
bunch of companies that were providing VoIP VoIP

650
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:10,359
that were

651
00:22:10,924 --> 00:22:12,765
I don't know. Like, there was some kind

652
00:22:12,924 --> 00:22:14,784
and there's a new US restriction because

653
00:22:15,085 --> 00:22:17,244
they have to comply with the, the the

654
00:22:17,244 --> 00:22:17,744
robocall

655
00:22:18,125 --> 00:22:19,184
laws or whatever.

656
00:22:19,724 --> 00:22:22,444
Yeah. That's more regulation from the FCC. It

657
00:22:22,444 --> 00:22:22,924
was this

658
00:22:23,839 --> 00:22:25,920
they they're cracking down a little. I mean,

659
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,480
they're they're releasing new regulation all the time,

660
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,599
and so there's these, robocall mitigation laws as

661
00:22:31,599 --> 00:22:33,460
part of the Trace Act in The US.

662
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:34,400
And,

663
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,759
so slowly, they're they're trying to make it

664
00:22:37,759 --> 00:22:39,464
a lot harder to run a VoIP

665
00:22:40,424 --> 00:22:40,744
service.

666
00:22:41,224 --> 00:22:43,565
This one is is supposed to protect you.

667
00:22:43,784 --> 00:22:45,865
And, so there was a thousand companies that

668
00:22:45,865 --> 00:22:46,684
didn't comply.

669
00:22:47,625 --> 00:22:49,544
A thousand companies that this is actually a

670
00:22:49,544 --> 00:22:50,444
perfect example.

671
00:22:51,784 --> 00:22:54,849
So there's around 2,000, 2,400 companies in The

672
00:22:54,849 --> 00:22:57,009
US that do this VoIP service. A thousand

673
00:22:57,009 --> 00:22:59,250
of them weren't complying. So what did they

674
00:22:59,250 --> 00:23:03,009
do? They told the other 1,400 companies not

675
00:23:03,009 --> 00:23:05,349
to route calls from the other 1,000.

676
00:23:05,524 --> 00:23:07,365
And I think it sums up this game

677
00:23:07,365 --> 00:23:08,264
theory perfectly.

678
00:23:08,644 --> 00:23:10,964
They can only rely on the rest of

679
00:23:10,964 --> 00:23:12,664
us to cut the other people out.

680
00:23:13,044 --> 00:23:15,125
So going back to restaurants and stuff, they

681
00:23:15,125 --> 00:23:16,184
will rely on

682
00:23:16,565 --> 00:23:18,404
you know, we're really relying on each other

683
00:23:18,404 --> 00:23:19,990
not to cut each other out. You know,

684
00:23:19,990 --> 00:23:21,909
this this really does get to the heart

685
00:23:21,909 --> 00:23:23,429
of it, and thank you for clarifying that.

686
00:23:23,429 --> 00:23:25,349
Because I remember, yeah, reading about that, and

687
00:23:25,349 --> 00:23:28,069
I I so the robocall mitigation regulations, I

688
00:23:28,069 --> 00:23:28,890
guess, require

689
00:23:29,669 --> 00:23:31,049
these services to,

690
00:23:31,589 --> 00:23:33,049
to log and and,

691
00:23:33,349 --> 00:23:35,234
the the the phone calls that are being

692
00:23:35,234 --> 00:23:36,994
made or whatever. They have to keep those

693
00:23:36,994 --> 00:23:38,375
records and then obviously

694
00:23:38,914 --> 00:23:41,154
store them for government access in the future

695
00:23:41,154 --> 00:23:43,715
essentially is what they're doing. Anyway, but you're

696
00:23:43,715 --> 00:23:45,715
right. Yes. It comes back to the the

697
00:23:45,715 --> 00:23:48,275
sort of the participation. Will will people participate

698
00:23:48,275 --> 00:23:49,875
in this? And I think that really is

699
00:23:49,875 --> 00:23:51,099
the the heart of the matter and to

700
00:23:51,099 --> 00:23:53,200
me the sort of the societally, existentially

701
00:23:53,579 --> 00:23:54,079
threatening

702
00:23:54,619 --> 00:23:56,460
part of this because as I think you

703
00:23:56,460 --> 00:23:58,400
mentioned at the top, it's not necessarily

704
00:23:59,019 --> 00:24:00,160
the ham handed government

705
00:24:00,779 --> 00:24:01,279
regulations

706
00:24:01,660 --> 00:24:03,339
that we have to worry about so much

707
00:24:03,339 --> 00:24:05,394
as it is to a certain extent if

708
00:24:05,394 --> 00:24:07,315
we're looking for the problem, we should start

709
00:24:07,315 --> 00:24:08,375
by looking in the mirror,

710
00:24:08,914 --> 00:24:11,234
to the extent that we are participating in

711
00:24:11,234 --> 00:24:14,295
these systems voluntarily when we don't have to.

712
00:24:15,234 --> 00:24:16,535
In a way that's extremely

713
00:24:16,914 --> 00:24:19,075
empowering because, hey, we do have choice and

714
00:24:19,075 --> 00:24:21,049
we can take alternatives. But in a way,

715
00:24:21,049 --> 00:24:23,849
it's extremely frightening because, for example, with my

716
00:24:23,849 --> 00:24:25,230
recent experience in Malaysia,

717
00:24:25,769 --> 00:24:28,329
I was the only one who was who

718
00:24:28,329 --> 00:24:30,089
thought there was anything even weird here. It's

719
00:24:30,089 --> 00:24:31,769
like it's it really is like the twilight

720
00:24:31,769 --> 00:24:33,575
zone when you step into a situation like

721
00:24:33,575 --> 00:24:35,575
that and everyone else is just whipping out

722
00:24:35,575 --> 00:24:37,654
their card and scanning their QR code and,

723
00:24:37,654 --> 00:24:40,134
you know, it's just daily business. But for

724
00:24:40,134 --> 00:24:41,494
me, I'm like, oh no. What's going on

725
00:24:41,494 --> 00:24:44,375
here? And I think an important part of

726
00:24:44,375 --> 00:24:46,549
what the sort of the societal fabric of

727
00:24:46,549 --> 00:24:48,170
what's happening right now is

728
00:24:48,789 --> 00:24:49,769
we are seeing

729
00:24:50,150 --> 00:24:52,330
the government tyranny being outsourced.

730
00:24:53,830 --> 00:24:55,849
So for example, what was

731
00:24:56,150 --> 00:24:59,005
the the core heart of the CBDC issue

732
00:24:59,005 --> 00:25:00,765
was, oh my god, the central bank is

733
00:25:00,765 --> 00:25:02,845
going to know everything about everything you're doing

734
00:25:02,845 --> 00:25:04,684
and we'll be able to prevent your transactions,

735
00:25:04,684 --> 00:25:07,825
etcetera. An obvious threat to liberty that even

736
00:25:08,205 --> 00:25:10,589
the asleepest of the asleep could see was,

737
00:25:10,589 --> 00:25:12,190
hey, maybe we don't want that kind of

738
00:25:12,190 --> 00:25:14,589
system guys, right? So pretty much everyone can

739
00:25:14,589 --> 00:25:17,250
get behind the let's ban CBDCs movement.

740
00:25:17,869 --> 00:25:19,470
But then what do we replace it with?

741
00:25:19,470 --> 00:25:21,390
Well, stable coins. So what we'll do is

742
00:25:21,390 --> 00:25:22,210
we'll outsource

743
00:25:22,910 --> 00:25:24,210
this particular function

744
00:25:24,855 --> 00:25:26,775
to a third party. Don't worry guys, it's

745
00:25:26,775 --> 00:25:29,335
some company. It's Tether or whoever. That that

746
00:25:29,335 --> 00:25:30,855
has nothing to do with the US government.

747
00:25:30,855 --> 00:25:32,875
It's just, oh, well, we'll pass this legislation

748
00:25:32,934 --> 00:25:35,494
so that we regulate and can control exactly

749
00:25:35,494 --> 00:25:37,734
who can participate in this space and under

750
00:25:37,734 --> 00:25:38,474
what restrictions

751
00:25:39,049 --> 00:25:40,669
and given what kind of oversight.

752
00:25:41,690 --> 00:25:42,190
Which

753
00:25:42,569 --> 00:25:45,529
to me, to my mind, is exactly in

754
00:25:45,529 --> 00:25:47,369
a sense this is this is the heart

755
00:25:47,369 --> 00:25:49,929
of the banking system that perhaps people have

756
00:25:49,929 --> 00:25:52,275
failed to understand. Yes, the central bank, the

757
00:25:52,275 --> 00:25:53,795
the Federal Reserve or the Bank of England

758
00:25:53,795 --> 00:25:55,555
or whatever it is. Yes. It's the central

759
00:25:55,555 --> 00:25:57,634
bank that is the the bank for the

760
00:25:57,634 --> 00:25:58,134
banks,

761
00:25:59,315 --> 00:26:01,875
where the bank money, the reserve money is

762
00:26:01,875 --> 00:26:04,195
is held. But the entire system has been

763
00:26:04,195 --> 00:26:07,759
predicated on having these commercial banks, these third

764
00:26:07,759 --> 00:26:09,759
party, hey, these aren't government banks. These are

765
00:26:09,759 --> 00:26:11,059
these are private entities

766
00:26:11,519 --> 00:26:13,839
that play with the the central bank, but

767
00:26:13,839 --> 00:26:15,679
then they're the ones providing the service to

768
00:26:15,679 --> 00:26:16,899
us. It's this intermediation

769
00:26:17,599 --> 00:26:18,819
of the banking system

770
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,015
that then allows the government exactly as an

771
00:26:22,015 --> 00:26:24,335
operation choke point there in The US. It

772
00:26:24,335 --> 00:26:26,654
wasn't it wasn't the government that was debanking

773
00:26:26,654 --> 00:26:29,694
anyone. It was the private banks because the

774
00:26:29,694 --> 00:26:31,254
government was leaning on them with their Right.

775
00:26:31,294 --> 00:26:31,794
FVIC

776
00:26:32,095 --> 00:26:33,234
regulatory authority.

777
00:26:33,630 --> 00:26:35,309
That's the that's the system. That's the way

778
00:26:35,309 --> 00:26:37,089
this is being structured. So

779
00:26:37,390 --> 00:26:39,390
in a sense, yes. Great. Okay. I I

780
00:26:39,390 --> 00:26:42,430
think it's true. If we don't play along

781
00:26:42,430 --> 00:26:44,190
with these games, if we refuse to go

782
00:26:44,190 --> 00:26:46,154
to the restaurant that's getting us to QR

783
00:26:46,154 --> 00:26:48,315
skin, or if we refuse to use Reddit

784
00:26:48,315 --> 00:26:50,315
or whatever when they're asking us for our

785
00:26:50,315 --> 00:26:51,535
digital government ID,

786
00:26:51,914 --> 00:26:52,414
great.

787
00:26:52,795 --> 00:26:54,955
But in a sense, the entire system is

788
00:26:54,955 --> 00:26:58,075
being structured this way. And unless we confront

789
00:26:58,075 --> 00:27:00,679
it, I mean, I guess what I'm saying

790
00:27:00,679 --> 00:27:02,859
is the 100%

791
00:27:02,919 --> 00:27:05,720
most important priority in all of this is

792
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:06,700
the public awareness.

793
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,079
Because I think the public is going to

794
00:27:09,079 --> 00:27:11,159
just go along with it because, again, this

795
00:27:11,159 --> 00:27:13,159
isn't the government tyranny that we've been hearing

796
00:27:13,159 --> 00:27:14,884
about. It's just private companies and you can

797
00:27:14,884 --> 00:27:17,684
choose and, hey, whatever. I trust Elon Musk

798
00:27:17,684 --> 00:27:18,424
or whoever.

799
00:27:19,125 --> 00:27:20,404
That to me seems to be the root

800
00:27:20,404 --> 00:27:21,924
of the issue. And I think they learn

801
00:27:21,924 --> 00:27:24,085
that very well after things like Total Information

802
00:27:24,085 --> 00:27:25,845
Awareness and Palantir and, like, the way that

803
00:27:25,845 --> 00:27:27,605
they can shift into the company and hide

804
00:27:27,605 --> 00:27:29,759
everything and the public private overlap where they

805
00:27:29,759 --> 00:27:31,359
go, oh, no. That's that's part private. Can't

806
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:32,720
do that. You know? And and I think

807
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:34,720
right now, that's a very obvious shift. And

808
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:36,159
I think, like, I just bumped up against

809
00:27:36,159 --> 00:27:38,240
that interestingly with research around the bio side

810
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:39,759
of it, where I'm looking at a, a

811
00:27:39,759 --> 00:27:41,774
new, like, I think it was the vaccine

812
00:27:41,774 --> 00:27:43,454
patches, and they're they're working with different companies.

813
00:27:43,454 --> 00:27:45,454
The US government is another way they're kind

814
00:27:45,454 --> 00:27:47,294
of pretending they're stopping when they're not. But

815
00:27:47,294 --> 00:27:49,054
I'm looking into the company, and I'm I

816
00:27:49,054 --> 00:27:50,654
kept bumping up against this. So it's private

817
00:27:50,654 --> 00:27:52,335
company. And I was, like, unable to find

818
00:27:52,335 --> 00:27:53,950
the person's name who was behind it. And

819
00:27:53,950 --> 00:27:55,549
it's just like this weird you know, that's

820
00:27:55,549 --> 00:27:57,309
the fascist overlap right there. And I think

821
00:27:57,309 --> 00:27:59,630
that's very obviously they recognize a way to

822
00:27:59,630 --> 00:28:00,830
get around it all. And then, of course,

823
00:28:00,830 --> 00:28:03,890
we are bombarded moment after moment with narratives

824
00:28:04,029 --> 00:28:05,869
every moment that shift in flux, you know,

825
00:28:05,869 --> 00:28:07,150
depending on what they need to get us

826
00:28:07,150 --> 00:28:09,565
with that justify each one little step. And

827
00:28:09,565 --> 00:28:11,484
nobody you know, the normies, let's say, don't

828
00:28:11,484 --> 00:28:13,244
connect those little steps and dots with the

829
00:28:13,244 --> 00:28:15,085
bigger picture. That's the boiling frog. You know,

830
00:28:15,085 --> 00:28:17,085
it just you're right, though, James. That that

831
00:28:17,085 --> 00:28:18,365
really is the crux. That's why I talk

832
00:28:18,365 --> 00:28:20,045
about the two party illusion part of it,

833
00:28:20,045 --> 00:28:21,799
which clearly even from The UK, it's more

834
00:28:21,799 --> 00:28:23,320
than two, but it's just the the false

835
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,960
binary idea that is the real crux of

836
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,039
the problem, not the only problem. But damn

837
00:28:28,039 --> 00:28:29,240
it. It's the one thing that really does

838
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:30,779
seem to stop us when we get close.

839
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,055
The the outsourcing extends to censorship as well

840
00:28:34,055 --> 00:28:36,375
because the, like, the the, the online safety

841
00:28:36,375 --> 00:28:38,795
act, for example, it doesn't find individuals

842
00:28:39,335 --> 00:28:41,974
for saying things. It finds platforms for hosting

843
00:28:41,974 --> 00:28:44,615
things. So the platforms then, you know, they're

844
00:28:44,615 --> 00:28:46,615
not being ordered to take things down, but

845
00:28:46,615 --> 00:28:48,615
they face government fines if they don't take

846
00:28:48,615 --> 00:28:51,470
them down. And you can't object because free

847
00:28:51,470 --> 00:28:52,910
speech is guaranteed by the government. It's not

848
00:28:52,910 --> 00:28:54,670
guaranteed by Twitter. It's not guaranteed by Facebook.

849
00:28:54,670 --> 00:28:56,190
They're a private company. They can just take

850
00:28:56,190 --> 00:28:57,250
you down if you want.

851
00:28:58,509 --> 00:29:00,450
And, of course, it works both ways because

852
00:29:00,990 --> 00:29:02,049
the bigger companies

853
00:29:02,394 --> 00:29:05,194
like Google, like Facebook, like Twitter can afford

854
00:29:05,194 --> 00:29:06,875
to pay the fines if they get fined,

855
00:29:06,875 --> 00:29:08,795
but smaller rivals that would be set up

856
00:29:08,795 --> 00:29:10,795
to encourage free speech couldn't afford to pay

857
00:29:10,795 --> 00:29:13,035
the fines. Right. So the government gets its

858
00:29:13,035 --> 00:29:15,914
censorship, and and then the mega companies get

859
00:29:15,914 --> 00:29:17,940
their monopoly, and they they intertwine like that.

860
00:29:17,940 --> 00:29:20,819
In a sense, that's another sort of false

861
00:29:20,819 --> 00:29:23,960
binary. It's government versus corporations. They're so intermingled,

862
00:29:24,259 --> 00:29:26,839
so tied together. You can't really separate them.

863
00:29:28,339 --> 00:29:30,345
There's all that. Go ahead, Haim. Go ahead.

864
00:29:30,345 --> 00:29:31,865
I was just because it's kinda dumb. It

865
00:29:31,865 --> 00:29:32,184
was,

866
00:29:32,744 --> 00:29:34,105
when the CIA was,

867
00:29:34,904 --> 00:29:37,724
doing a partnership with Google for their own

868
00:29:37,865 --> 00:29:40,205
CIA dashboard, they had to ask permission,

869
00:29:41,224 --> 00:29:42,825
for Google so that they can change their

870
00:29:42,825 --> 00:29:44,930
logo. They could change the Google logo to

871
00:29:44,930 --> 00:29:46,470
have the CIA seal on it.

872
00:29:47,009 --> 00:29:48,309
They have to ask permission.

873
00:29:50,289 --> 00:29:52,369
Luckily, Google don't it was don't be evil

874
00:29:52,369 --> 00:29:54,529
at that time. Right? So Yeah. Yeah. They're

875
00:29:54,529 --> 00:29:55,750
like, alright. CIA.

876
00:29:56,210 --> 00:29:56,710
Alright.

877
00:29:57,090 --> 00:29:59,565
I saw, just the other day, someone had

878
00:29:59,565 --> 00:30:01,565
saved a screenshot from Google and I suppose

879
00:30:01,565 --> 00:30:03,244
it would be the late nineteen thirty thousands,

880
00:30:03,244 --> 00:30:05,164
which is when it was still an incredibly

881
00:30:05,164 --> 00:30:07,005
rough little text box that had little disclaimer

882
00:30:07,005 --> 00:30:08,204
on it that said we're the only search

883
00:30:08,204 --> 00:30:10,684
engine that doesn't monitor your data and that

884
00:30:10,684 --> 00:30:11,664
doesn't have advertising.

885
00:30:12,529 --> 00:30:14,289
It was it was quite sad. It was

886
00:30:14,289 --> 00:30:15,809
like, oh, he was so innocent when he

887
00:30:15,809 --> 00:30:17,490
was young. Well, they were lying then too.

888
00:30:17,490 --> 00:30:18,789
Let's be clear about that.

889
00:30:19,890 --> 00:30:21,029
I think that's the point.

890
00:30:21,409 --> 00:30:23,490
Wow. But but so let let's come at

891
00:30:23,490 --> 00:30:25,144
that, like, from the kind of the one

892
00:30:25,144 --> 00:30:26,345
of the main points today is so, like,

893
00:30:26,345 --> 00:30:28,744
what we're discussing, what are the possible solutions

894
00:30:28,744 --> 00:30:30,585
to that? You know, obviously, it's one of

895
00:30:30,585 --> 00:30:32,024
the main things, you know, from the non

896
00:30:32,024 --> 00:30:33,304
tech side is what we're talking about is

897
00:30:33,304 --> 00:30:34,984
just, you know, information, what we do for

898
00:30:34,984 --> 00:30:37,384
a living, getting people to understand that these

899
00:30:37,384 --> 00:30:38,924
are the you know, the

900
00:30:39,359 --> 00:30:41,200
narrative of the day is not necessarily about

901
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:42,799
solving that wedge issue. It's about you, you

902
00:30:42,799 --> 00:30:45,279
know, justifying what comes down the line in

903
00:30:45,279 --> 00:30:47,039
six months. But, you know, what other ways

904
00:30:47,039 --> 00:30:48,900
in that moment can we use to circumvent

905
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:50,880
that that problem in your gut's mind? Let

906
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:52,500
me give you my my

907
00:30:53,154 --> 00:30:55,894
first approximation of a stab at this. Mhmm.

908
00:30:56,115 --> 00:30:56,855
I think

909
00:30:58,355 --> 00:30:58,855
given

910
00:30:59,474 --> 00:31:01,474
what we're talking about here, given the fact

911
00:31:01,474 --> 00:31:04,295
that it is this government slash private collaboration,

912
00:31:04,515 --> 00:31:06,930
the public private partnerships, that's the polite name

913
00:31:06,930 --> 00:31:08,230
for fascism these days.

914
00:31:10,130 --> 00:31:12,049
How do we how do we approach that?

915
00:31:12,049 --> 00:31:13,029
To me that

916
00:31:13,970 --> 00:31:16,369
as a volunteerist, as someone who thinks that

917
00:31:16,369 --> 00:31:18,529
government should not exist, but people should be

918
00:31:18,529 --> 00:31:19,509
allowed to

919
00:31:20,275 --> 00:31:21,634
exercise their freedoms in the way that they

920
00:31:21,634 --> 00:31:23,075
want as long as it doesn't infringe on

921
00:31:23,075 --> 00:31:25,095
other people's rights to exercise their freedoms.

922
00:31:25,394 --> 00:31:26,755
I don't think there should be a body

923
00:31:26,755 --> 00:31:28,055
that comes along and

924
00:31:29,075 --> 00:31:31,890
in some way regulates that people can't use

925
00:31:31,890 --> 00:31:34,230
an online ID or there cannot be smartphones

926
00:31:34,369 --> 00:31:36,049
or QR codes or something. No. That would

927
00:31:36,049 --> 00:31:36,869
be a tyranny

928
00:31:37,490 --> 00:31:39,809
in maybe even if it corresponded with the

929
00:31:39,809 --> 00:31:41,330
type of tyranny you wanted, it would still

930
00:31:41,330 --> 00:31:42,609
be tyranny and I would not be in

931
00:31:42,609 --> 00:31:43,750
support of that. But,

932
00:31:45,034 --> 00:31:47,034
so to me, the real crux of the

933
00:31:47,034 --> 00:31:47,534
matter,

934
00:31:48,634 --> 00:31:49,534
at the very least

935
00:31:49,914 --> 00:31:51,595
okay. There's two things that come to mind.

936
00:31:51,595 --> 00:31:53,674
One is that, yes, I I am I

937
00:31:53,674 --> 00:31:56,075
am as I hope people understand by now

938
00:31:56,075 --> 00:31:58,075
through what I've done with SolutionsWatch and everything

939
00:31:58,075 --> 00:32:00,575
else, I am 100% supportive of people

940
00:32:01,220 --> 00:32:03,940
creating and finding and using alternatives and finding

941
00:32:03,940 --> 00:32:05,539
the spaces and the cracks in the system

942
00:32:05,539 --> 00:32:07,960
and doing things, you know, in the disintermediated

943
00:32:08,420 --> 00:32:10,500
way that you say the Internet was predicated

944
00:32:10,500 --> 00:32:12,920
on in the first place. That's incredibly important.

945
00:32:13,005 --> 00:32:14,924
So my hats off to Hakeem and everyone

946
00:32:14,924 --> 00:32:16,365
out there who is doing that kind of

947
00:32:16,365 --> 00:32:18,865
work. It's incredibly important and I appreciate it.

948
00:32:19,964 --> 00:32:22,144
Having said that, it does create

949
00:32:23,805 --> 00:32:25,805
sort of a two tier system where there

950
00:32:25,805 --> 00:32:26,305
is

951
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,039
the everyday public life of people who go

952
00:32:29,039 --> 00:32:30,640
along their merry way and don't ever have

953
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:31,700
to put two

954
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,099
two seconds of thought into what they're doing,

955
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,039
and can, you know, enter any public space

956
00:32:37,039 --> 00:32:38,954
and do whatever they want because they're using

957
00:32:38,954 --> 00:32:41,515
the default method, the cashless digital ID, whatever.

958
00:32:41,515 --> 00:32:43,194
And then there are the, you know, the

959
00:32:43,194 --> 00:32:43,694
vagabonds

960
00:32:43,994 --> 00:32:44,734
and the,

961
00:32:45,355 --> 00:32:48,154
and and the the the castaways from society.

962
00:32:48,154 --> 00:32:48,654
And

963
00:32:49,115 --> 00:32:51,750
to a certain extent, maybe that maybe at

964
00:32:51,750 --> 00:32:53,670
least that's better than an outright tyranny in

965
00:32:53,670 --> 00:32:55,509
which there are no cracks in the system

966
00:32:55,509 --> 00:32:57,269
and in which there is no space for

967
00:32:57,269 --> 00:32:58,789
freedom. But, you know, if I have to

968
00:32:58,789 --> 00:33:00,390
be a pirate in order to do it,

969
00:33:00,390 --> 00:33:01,450
then I guess so.

970
00:33:02,630 --> 00:33:04,789
What's the, what's the wretched hive of scum

971
00:33:04,789 --> 00:33:05,450
and villainy?

972
00:33:06,174 --> 00:33:07,474
Star Wars lore? Yeah.

973
00:33:08,575 --> 00:33:10,815
Moss Eiselies. Moss Eiselies. Sorry. I'm getting my

974
00:33:10,815 --> 00:33:12,894
help from my assistant back here. You know,

975
00:33:12,894 --> 00:33:14,974
there's the Moss Eiselies of the world where,

976
00:33:14,974 --> 00:33:16,575
you know, you can go and and you

977
00:33:16,575 --> 00:33:18,850
can be that sort of, you know, alternative

978
00:33:19,070 --> 00:33:20,130
person. But

979
00:33:20,670 --> 00:33:22,750
to me, the the real crux of the

980
00:33:22,750 --> 00:33:25,730
matter is to not implement this

981
00:33:26,509 --> 00:33:29,309
at the level of the government regulation. Because

982
00:33:29,309 --> 00:33:31,630
to me, that's the evil crux of this.

983
00:33:31,630 --> 00:33:33,994
Because whether it's the government tyranny or it's

984
00:33:33,994 --> 00:33:37,035
the public private partnership tyranny, it's stemming from

985
00:33:37,035 --> 00:33:40,075
the the government's supposed right to say regulate

986
00:33:40,075 --> 00:33:42,474
this industry. Hey, these are private companies. They

987
00:33:42,474 --> 00:33:44,490
just have to play by our rules. So

988
00:33:44,490 --> 00:33:46,509
that seems to me to be the fundamental

989
00:33:46,569 --> 00:33:49,369
connection in this chain of tyranny, and we

990
00:33:49,369 --> 00:33:50,730
have to find a way to break that.

991
00:33:50,730 --> 00:33:53,470
But that to me isn't a technological problem.

992
00:33:53,930 --> 00:33:55,789
I mean, that's a social political

993
00:33:56,704 --> 00:33:59,025
problem. And, I don't know if we I

994
00:33:59,025 --> 00:34:01,204
don't know if there's technology that I mean,

995
00:34:01,744 --> 00:34:03,984
Hakeem, maybe I don't know. But maybe your

996
00:34:03,984 --> 00:34:05,125
take is the technology

997
00:34:05,505 --> 00:34:06,325
actually dictates

998
00:34:06,625 --> 00:34:07,125
society.

999
00:34:07,424 --> 00:34:07,924
Because

1000
00:34:08,304 --> 00:34:10,385
a a couple of decades ago, of course,

1001
00:34:10,385 --> 00:34:12,220
taxis are the only way to get around.

1002
00:34:12,220 --> 00:34:13,340
Like, what are you what are you talking

1003
00:34:13,340 --> 00:34:15,019
about? And then some, you know, Uber and

1004
00:34:15,019 --> 00:34:17,500
Lyft come along and completely change upend people's

1005
00:34:17,500 --> 00:34:20,460
perception of that. Or Airbnb completely upends people's

1006
00:34:20,460 --> 00:34:22,539
perceptions of the way the hotel industry works.

1007
00:34:22,539 --> 00:34:24,914
So perhaps your is your take that the

1008
00:34:24,914 --> 00:34:27,394
technology will lead people in directions that are

1009
00:34:27,394 --> 00:34:29,655
either towards freedom or away from freedom depending

1010
00:34:29,954 --> 00:34:32,195
on the way the technology is constructed? Really

1011
00:34:32,195 --> 00:34:33,474
quick, Hakeem. I'll just add on top of

1012
00:34:33,474 --> 00:34:35,394
that. Let's not forget too that the element

1013
00:34:35,394 --> 00:34:37,235
of, as I'm sure James would add, that

1014
00:34:37,235 --> 00:34:38,914
it's not just the organic element, but that

1015
00:34:38,914 --> 00:34:40,869
the government now are like, deliberately

1016
00:34:41,170 --> 00:34:43,250
holds back technology until it can be flooded

1017
00:34:43,250 --> 00:34:44,930
to the time that they would feel it

1018
00:34:44,930 --> 00:34:47,090
most meets their interest. That's what changes that

1019
00:34:47,090 --> 00:34:48,550
point, but but go ahead, Hakeem.

1020
00:34:49,570 --> 00:34:51,190
I think that technology

1021
00:34:51,650 --> 00:34:53,264
is both the best

1022
00:34:54,224 --> 00:34:56,304
it's both the worst thing that happened to

1023
00:34:56,304 --> 00:34:56,804
humanity,

1024
00:34:57,264 --> 00:34:59,824
and, also, it's kind of our saving grace.

1025
00:34:59,824 --> 00:35:02,164
Just just just a little bit. Why?

1026
00:35:02,944 --> 00:35:04,964
Because, I mean, look look at

1027
00:35:05,344 --> 00:35:07,744
look at the lockdowns during COVID. Where did

1028
00:35:07,744 --> 00:35:10,280
we all have to turn to? Because everyone,

1029
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,360
you know, generally around us, if you take

1030
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,139
a random sample of people,

1031
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:16,539
a lot of them are gonna be asleep.

1032
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:18,599
Very few of them are gonna wait. You're

1033
00:35:18,599 --> 00:35:20,760
you're already very lucky if you're around neighborhood

1034
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:22,519
where where people are awake. So people didn't

1035
00:35:22,519 --> 00:35:25,085
have those social bonds yet. I think we're

1036
00:35:25,144 --> 00:35:27,164
in Konkin's third stage

1037
00:35:27,585 --> 00:35:28,085
of

1038
00:35:28,505 --> 00:35:29,005
evolution

1039
00:35:29,945 --> 00:35:33,085
where, more and more people are becoming agorist

1040
00:35:33,304 --> 00:35:35,304
or volunteerist. And we're right now, we're in

1041
00:35:35,304 --> 00:35:37,545
that navigation phase. There's gonna be a lot

1042
00:35:37,545 --> 00:35:38,605
of shuffling around.

1043
00:35:40,789 --> 00:35:43,190
Close proximity to each other, we are going

1044
00:35:43,190 --> 00:35:44,949
to have to use technology a little bit,

1045
00:35:45,190 --> 00:35:47,050
to figure out where we're gonna go next.

1046
00:35:47,110 --> 00:35:47,590
And,

1047
00:35:48,150 --> 00:35:49,829
so until we get to the point where

1048
00:35:49,829 --> 00:35:51,910
we're in a giant intentional community and we

1049
00:35:51,910 --> 00:35:54,125
don't need banks, we don't need to go

1050
00:35:54,125 --> 00:35:56,125
to the grocery store, which is not gonna

1051
00:35:56,125 --> 00:35:57,804
happen for a while, I would think, at

1052
00:35:57,804 --> 00:35:59,885
least a few years. You know, technology is

1053
00:35:59,885 --> 00:36:01,565
gonna have a place in it. But I

1054
00:36:01,565 --> 00:36:02,925
I don't think it's the end all to

1055
00:36:02,925 --> 00:36:04,684
all our problems. It's just it's just kind

1056
00:36:04,684 --> 00:36:06,539
of a bridge to help us get there.

1057
00:36:06,860 --> 00:36:09,500
And then maybe when we get established, maybe

1058
00:36:09,500 --> 00:36:11,039
technology could play a role

1059
00:36:11,420 --> 00:36:12,320
to federate

1060
00:36:12,619 --> 00:36:14,960
our intentional communities and actually

1061
00:36:15,579 --> 00:36:18,860
have safe ways to communicate across distance and

1062
00:36:18,860 --> 00:36:21,420
send money across distances. Because as far as

1063
00:36:21,420 --> 00:36:22,835
I know, cryptocurrency

1064
00:36:23,135 --> 00:36:25,454
is the only way to send a large

1065
00:36:25,454 --> 00:36:28,014
sum of something that could be accepted, you

1066
00:36:28,014 --> 00:36:29,474
know, as a medium of exchange

1067
00:36:29,934 --> 00:36:31,234
right now across borders

1068
00:36:31,695 --> 00:36:34,594
without having to take dollar bills through,

1069
00:36:35,349 --> 00:36:37,489
you know, the RFID detectors or

1070
00:36:37,869 --> 00:36:40,130
smuggle it through customs. It's the only way.

1071
00:36:40,190 --> 00:36:41,869
So, I mean, if it does work, we

1072
00:36:41,869 --> 00:36:43,890
might as well experiment with it

1073
00:36:44,269 --> 00:36:46,849
a little bit. And so, at Above,

1074
00:36:47,324 --> 00:36:49,744
we've been trying to do things that address

1075
00:36:49,885 --> 00:36:50,704
these problems.

1076
00:36:52,284 --> 00:36:53,905
Right now, in several countries,

1077
00:36:55,164 --> 00:36:57,025
Pakistan being one, Estonia

1078
00:36:57,324 --> 00:36:59,644
being the other, I believe you would need

1079
00:36:59,644 --> 00:37:01,644
to have a digital ID in order to

1080
00:37:01,644 --> 00:37:03,880
get a a SIM card. However,

1081
00:37:04,420 --> 00:37:05,559
in other countries

1082
00:37:05,860 --> 00:37:06,840
that have partnerships

1083
00:37:07,219 --> 00:37:07,619
with,

1084
00:37:08,180 --> 00:37:10,579
mobile service providers in Pakistan, you can still

1085
00:37:10,579 --> 00:37:12,760
get cell service. So the laws are not

1086
00:37:12,820 --> 00:37:13,800
equally applied.

1087
00:37:14,260 --> 00:37:16,500
And so there are workarounds that you can

1088
00:37:16,500 --> 00:37:18,599
use to get connectivity in these regions.

1089
00:37:19,335 --> 00:37:21,414
Here's also an interesting thing. I want to

1090
00:37:21,414 --> 00:37:21,914
interview,

1091
00:37:23,414 --> 00:37:26,474
an an Afghan refugee who's living in Pakistan.

1092
00:37:26,534 --> 00:37:28,695
Why? Because they're one of the 4% that

1093
00:37:28,695 --> 00:37:32,074
aren't on digital ID. They can't they can't

1094
00:37:32,215 --> 00:37:35,050
legally rent a house. They can't get utilities.

1095
00:37:35,590 --> 00:37:37,269
They can't go to school. They can't get

1096
00:37:37,269 --> 00:37:39,510
married. What is life like that for that

1097
00:37:39,510 --> 00:37:41,989
person? Right? And I think we we get

1098
00:37:41,989 --> 00:37:43,909
to experience this as as part of it

1099
00:37:43,909 --> 00:37:45,530
is we have to let our own expectations

1100
00:37:45,670 --> 00:37:47,909
down as well. It's gonna be kinda ghetto

1101
00:37:47,909 --> 00:37:49,269
for a little bit. Right? We're gonna be,

1102
00:37:49,805 --> 00:37:51,565
what did it what did Orwell call the,

1103
00:37:51,885 --> 00:37:53,664
the places outside of the city?

1104
00:37:54,364 --> 00:37:54,864
Oh,

1105
00:37:57,724 --> 00:37:59,005
I looked that up real quick. I thought

1106
00:37:59,005 --> 00:38:00,045
I had a I thought I had a

1107
00:38:00,045 --> 00:38:00,945
name. Anyways,

1108
00:38:01,325 --> 00:38:03,164
I'm like, Mos Eisley. We're going to Mos

1109
00:38:03,164 --> 00:38:03,885
Eisley. And

1110
00:38:04,789 --> 00:38:05,609
That was Orwell. Right?

1111
00:38:09,190 --> 00:38:09,690
Yeah.

1112
00:38:10,710 --> 00:38:11,989
I had I had a question for you,

1113
00:38:11,989 --> 00:38:13,829
though. Can I I don't wanna monopolize this

1114
00:38:13,829 --> 00:38:16,250
conversation, but it also occurs to me that,

1115
00:38:18,574 --> 00:38:21,295
the question also is, can we scale human

1116
00:38:21,295 --> 00:38:21,795
connection?

1117
00:38:22,574 --> 00:38:23,074
Because

1118
00:38:23,375 --> 00:38:26,094
part of, I think, the fundamental problem that

1119
00:38:26,094 --> 00:38:29,054
we have is that human connection between human

1120
00:38:29,054 --> 00:38:29,554
people

1121
00:38:29,934 --> 00:38:30,434
is,

1122
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,039
I mean, in a natural state, in a

1123
00:38:33,039 --> 00:38:35,460
non technological state, you're talking about hundreds,

1124
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,400
maybe thousands of people that can live in

1125
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:39,460
some sort of natural

1126
00:38:40,559 --> 00:38:41,699
state without technological

1127
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,079
aid. Once you start to scale it up

1128
00:38:44,079 --> 00:38:45,059
to millions,

1129
00:38:45,714 --> 00:38:48,755
billions of people across international boundaries around the

1130
00:38:48,755 --> 00:38:51,074
entire world, you're starting to look at the

1131
00:38:51,074 --> 00:38:53,974
problems that inherently come with this

1132
00:38:54,275 --> 00:38:55,335
question of,

1133
00:38:55,875 --> 00:38:58,994
technological connection. And so, one example of this

1134
00:38:58,994 --> 00:39:00,670
is, I I always like to try to

1135
00:39:00,670 --> 00:39:02,190
put myself back in the mindset of someone

1136
00:39:02,190 --> 00:39:03,409
say in the nineteenth century.

1137
00:39:04,190 --> 00:39:04,769
Right? Where

1138
00:39:05,150 --> 00:39:05,890
a passport?

1139
00:39:06,510 --> 00:39:07,969
I need some kind of like

1140
00:39:08,510 --> 00:39:10,750
letter from the queen or the king, I

1141
00:39:10,750 --> 00:39:12,750
guess, telling me that I can move from

1142
00:39:12,750 --> 00:39:15,150
one place to another. What? Like why? What

1143
00:39:15,150 --> 00:39:18,085
what is this about? Passports were an invention

1144
00:39:18,085 --> 00:39:20,724
of the twentieth century. They didn't exist before

1145
00:39:20,724 --> 00:39:21,945
that point. So why

1146
00:39:22,325 --> 00:39:24,885
how do they become normal? Or how about

1147
00:39:24,885 --> 00:39:27,765
your government issued whatever, driver's license or whatever

1148
00:39:27,765 --> 00:39:29,305
ID, the physical ID,

1149
00:39:29,765 --> 00:39:31,525
that's so much better than digital ID. No.

1150
00:39:31,525 --> 00:39:34,070
It's fundamentally the sort of the same concept.

1151
00:39:34,070 --> 00:39:36,070
Why is there this government database that that

1152
00:39:36,070 --> 00:39:37,510
says who you are and that proves your

1153
00:39:37,510 --> 00:39:40,070
age and everything? Well, it's because how, you

1154
00:39:40,070 --> 00:39:42,070
know, if you go to the corner store

1155
00:39:42,070 --> 00:39:43,690
and you wanna buy a pack of cigarettes,

1156
00:39:44,164 --> 00:39:45,764
do people buy cigarettes anymore? I'm an old

1157
00:39:45,764 --> 00:39:46,905
man. I don't know. Anyway,

1158
00:39:47,445 --> 00:39:48,885
how are you gonna do that? You have

1159
00:39:48,885 --> 00:39:51,844
to show your ID. Right? But think about

1160
00:39:51,844 --> 00:39:54,244
that a hundred years ago. I mean, do

1161
00:39:54,244 --> 00:39:56,005
do you think there were people, like, checking

1162
00:39:56,005 --> 00:39:58,244
government issued IDs every time someone bought a

1163
00:39:58,244 --> 00:40:00,289
pack of cigarettes? Of course not. If some

1164
00:40:00,289 --> 00:40:02,130
12 year old came up to buy cigarettes,

1165
00:40:02,130 --> 00:40:05,090
they they'd probably, like, okay. Whatever. Right. I

1166
00:40:05,090 --> 00:40:06,389
don't care. Whatever. So

1167
00:40:07,889 --> 00:40:09,969
it's sort of that that as the scale

1168
00:40:09,969 --> 00:40:12,824
gets bigger, we start to expect these technological

1169
00:40:13,125 --> 00:40:15,765
interventions to do things that in an actual

1170
00:40:15,765 --> 00:40:18,324
human community of hundreds of people where you

1171
00:40:18,324 --> 00:40:20,405
know your neighbors and you know what's going

1172
00:40:20,405 --> 00:40:21,704
on and there's no big

1173
00:40:22,005 --> 00:40:24,485
overarching authority over the entire, you know, nation

1174
00:40:24,485 --> 00:40:25,945
or continent or whatever.

1175
00:40:26,429 --> 00:40:28,670
It's just about that human connection which can

1176
00:40:28,670 --> 00:40:31,309
be dealt with without these big systems, centralized

1177
00:40:31,309 --> 00:40:33,809
systems of control. How do you get

1178
00:40:34,349 --> 00:40:35,949
how do you do that on the scale

1179
00:40:35,949 --> 00:40:38,690
of millions or billions of people without instituting

1180
00:40:38,909 --> 00:40:42,074
centralized systems of control and databasing? And that's

1181
00:40:42,234 --> 00:40:44,494
the the again, that's a fundamental question.

1182
00:40:44,795 --> 00:40:46,234
And I'd like to hear that there are

1183
00:40:46,234 --> 00:40:47,295
ways of doing that,

1184
00:40:47,675 --> 00:40:49,795
but, it gets hard to think about. But

1185
00:40:49,795 --> 00:40:51,755
I think it comes down to the core

1186
00:40:51,755 --> 00:40:53,835
point real quickly just of again, it there

1187
00:40:53,914 --> 00:40:55,614
like, there will always be

1188
00:40:56,074 --> 00:40:57,880
like, somebody out there is gonna hear that

1189
00:40:57,880 --> 00:40:59,400
and list off the things that would make

1190
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:00,840
that bad for them. Like, there will always

1191
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,019
be negatives that come, but it's about liberty

1192
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,000
versus, you know, the negative like, that's what

1193
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:06,280
it always comes down to in this conversation

1194
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:07,739
is that you're willing to sacrifice

1195
00:41:08,039 --> 00:41:09,880
some of those things for liberty. You know?

1196
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:11,275
There's a there's a quote for that. You

1197
00:41:11,275 --> 00:41:12,635
know, so and go ahead. I have another

1198
00:41:12,635 --> 00:41:14,554
question I wanted to direct at Akeem. But

1199
00:41:14,554 --> 00:41:16,074
James' point, we can go around on that.

1200
00:41:16,074 --> 00:41:17,114
So I think that's what it comes down

1201
00:41:17,114 --> 00:41:17,614
to.

1202
00:41:17,914 --> 00:41:20,474
In beginning, I was getting slightly off, topic,

1203
00:41:20,474 --> 00:41:22,954
I suppose. But, like, it is important that

1204
00:41:22,954 --> 00:41:25,034
in some ways, you need to counter the

1205
00:41:25,034 --> 00:41:26,094
mindset that

1206
00:41:27,650 --> 00:41:29,410
there is no automatic right to be told

1207
00:41:29,410 --> 00:41:31,170
what to do. That that the the problem

1208
00:41:31,170 --> 00:41:33,430
is using that power correctly rather than

1209
00:41:33,809 --> 00:41:36,050
maybe that power shouldn't exist. Like, I've written

1210
00:41:36,050 --> 00:41:36,710
a lot

1211
00:41:37,650 --> 00:41:40,369
about, lab grown meat and alternative proteins and

1212
00:41:40,369 --> 00:41:42,309
all the other things they call it. And

1213
00:41:42,394 --> 00:41:44,155
I don't like it. I don't like it.

1214
00:41:44,155 --> 00:41:45,375
It's insidious. It's unpleasant.

1215
00:41:46,394 --> 00:41:49,755
And yet when Florida banned lab grown meat,

1216
00:41:49,755 --> 00:41:51,355
I I've got messages saying this and this

1217
00:41:51,355 --> 00:41:52,894
is good news, and I had to say,

1218
00:41:53,034 --> 00:41:53,534
well,

1219
00:41:53,835 --> 00:41:56,210
I don't think so. Because it still normalizes

1220
00:41:56,349 --> 00:41:57,949
the idea that the government can just say,

1221
00:41:57,949 --> 00:41:59,789
no. That's not lab. Because that's the core

1222
00:41:59,789 --> 00:42:01,869
of both. If if people want lab grown

1223
00:42:01,869 --> 00:42:03,150
meat, they should be able to get it.

1224
00:42:03,150 --> 00:42:04,909
I mean, I I wouldn't eat it myself,

1225
00:42:04,909 --> 00:42:06,590
but I wouldn't eat deep fried crickets either.

1226
00:42:06,590 --> 00:42:08,269
And I I don't especially want to eat

1227
00:42:08,269 --> 00:42:10,005
anything Bill Gates has had his hands on.

1228
00:42:10,324 --> 00:42:11,844
But I don't believe it is my right.

1229
00:42:11,844 --> 00:42:13,364
Your enemy's right to tell other people that

1230
00:42:13,364 --> 00:42:14,105
they can't.

1231
00:42:14,644 --> 00:42:16,484
And so you do want you do want

1232
00:42:16,484 --> 00:42:17,464
to really counter

1233
00:42:18,324 --> 00:42:20,105
what has become highly normalized,

1234
00:42:20,724 --> 00:42:23,605
like, tyrannical urge in people that they feel

1235
00:42:23,605 --> 00:42:25,284
the need. There should be somebody telling them

1236
00:42:25,284 --> 00:42:27,340
what to do. It seems designed that way.

1237
00:42:27,340 --> 00:42:29,340
Like, you're creating a situation where you get

1238
00:42:29,340 --> 00:42:31,260
the other side to call. And, again, this

1239
00:42:31,260 --> 00:42:32,380
is where it comes down to it's not

1240
00:42:32,380 --> 00:42:34,380
even about the point. It's not about woke

1241
00:42:34,380 --> 00:42:36,219
pronouns. It's about using that to get you

1242
00:42:36,219 --> 00:42:37,659
in a certain position. You know? And so

1243
00:42:37,659 --> 00:42:39,614
there, it's like you create the system where

1244
00:42:39,614 --> 00:42:41,454
you get the right so outraged that they

1245
00:42:41,454 --> 00:42:43,215
call for the same tyrannical thing they hate

1246
00:42:43,215 --> 00:42:44,735
because they wanna dunk on the other side.

1247
00:42:44,735 --> 00:42:46,574
It's it's actually pretty well crafted when you

1248
00:42:46,574 --> 00:42:48,034
think about it. You know? But it is

1249
00:42:48,255 --> 00:42:49,775
everywhere we look right now, but I agree.

1250
00:42:49,775 --> 00:42:51,454
I think that's a very important point about

1251
00:42:51,454 --> 00:42:53,295
how this is all used against us to

1252
00:42:53,295 --> 00:42:54,835
get us to call for our own subjugation.

1253
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,500
If if the real if the real

1254
00:42:59,119 --> 00:43:01,619
way forward here is education,

1255
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,039
what is the best thing to share with

1256
00:43:05,039 --> 00:43:05,940
people first?

1257
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:09,135
Because we do have so I I I

1258
00:43:09,135 --> 00:43:10,974
do think all through all of our audiences,

1259
00:43:10,974 --> 00:43:12,255
I think we have a lot of people

1260
00:43:12,255 --> 00:43:14,175
that are just kind of waiting to be

1261
00:43:14,175 --> 00:43:16,015
told what to do. Not not told what

1262
00:43:16,015 --> 00:43:17,394
to do, but guided. Right?

1263
00:43:17,775 --> 00:43:20,015
Here, let's focus on this issue. Here's a

1264
00:43:20,015 --> 00:43:22,409
here's a design for a sticker. Go and

1265
00:43:22,409 --> 00:43:23,929
send these out. So in the face of

1266
00:43:23,929 --> 00:43:26,089
this poly crisis, where where do we start?

1267
00:43:26,089 --> 00:43:28,349
I'm interested in what you guys say. Excellent

1268
00:43:28,409 --> 00:43:30,650
point. And here's an example of that that

1269
00:43:30,650 --> 00:43:33,210
just happened recently. Have has everyone noticed everyone

1270
00:43:33,210 --> 00:43:34,909
changing their profile pic to Clippy?

1271
00:43:35,285 --> 00:43:37,925
Yes. Yet again? Right? Because that guy put

1272
00:43:37,925 --> 00:43:38,825
out that video.

1273
00:43:39,204 --> 00:43:40,724
And what is even the point of this?

1274
00:43:40,724 --> 00:43:43,045
Clippy never didn't wasn't watching what you did.

1275
00:43:43,045 --> 00:43:44,724
Clippy didn't tell you what to do. Clippy

1276
00:43:44,724 --> 00:43:46,325
wasn't spying on you. You know, Clippy is

1277
00:43:46,325 --> 00:43:47,844
a good guy. Right? And so change your

1278
00:43:47,844 --> 00:43:49,065
profile pic to Clippy.

1279
00:43:49,650 --> 00:43:51,489
I don't know exactly what they're gonna try

1280
00:43:51,489 --> 00:43:54,289
to accomplish with that movement, but anyway, everyone's

1281
00:43:54,289 --> 00:43:56,769
changing their profile pic to Clippy. Right? So

1282
00:43:57,170 --> 00:43:58,769
It's just research. I just had to look

1283
00:43:58,769 --> 00:43:59,909
up what that was also.

1284
00:44:00,369 --> 00:44:00,869
Yeah.

1285
00:44:01,250 --> 00:44:03,250
Yeah. That's just I see. Where the social

1286
00:44:03,250 --> 00:44:05,694
is fair. Notice it now again. Yeah. Because

1287
00:44:05,694 --> 00:44:07,155
because a silly video,

1288
00:44:07,614 --> 00:44:10,094
for whatever reason, millions of people watched it

1289
00:44:10,094 --> 00:44:11,934
and decided to do it. You know, it

1290
00:44:11,934 --> 00:44:13,315
would be great if we had

1291
00:44:13,855 --> 00:44:16,094
something like that. That just at the very

1292
00:44:16,094 --> 00:44:18,494
least just represented in a simple way what

1293
00:44:18,494 --> 00:44:20,289
it is we're trying to put forward in

1294
00:44:20,289 --> 00:44:22,289
a way that people can at the very

1295
00:44:22,289 --> 00:44:24,369
least, as you say, Hakeem, people are waiting

1296
00:44:24,369 --> 00:44:26,769
for the movement because 99% of people are

1297
00:44:26,769 --> 00:44:27,829
just waiting for

1298
00:44:28,289 --> 00:44:29,730
sort of someone else to take care of

1299
00:44:29,730 --> 00:44:31,989
it and I'll just follow them. So,

1300
00:44:32,385 --> 00:44:34,885
yeah, how do we get people to understand

1301
00:44:34,945 --> 00:44:36,864
that they are part of a movement and

1302
00:44:36,864 --> 00:44:38,625
put their you know, start putting their thought

1303
00:44:38,625 --> 00:44:41,265
and intention into that? Something as stupid as,

1304
00:44:41,265 --> 00:44:43,184
hey. Change your profile click to Clippy can

1305
00:44:43,184 --> 00:44:44,784
be that kind of thing that gets people

1306
00:44:44,784 --> 00:44:46,869
at least thinking in the right direction. The

1307
00:44:46,869 --> 00:44:48,550
problem though, and this is and I agree

1308
00:44:48,550 --> 00:44:50,710
with you. That solution is that's in and

1309
00:44:50,710 --> 00:44:51,989
of its in its own, that that's, you

1310
00:44:51,989 --> 00:44:53,909
know, period. That's something we should do. But

1311
00:44:53,909 --> 00:44:56,309
the problem is that the same thing, the

1312
00:44:56,309 --> 00:44:58,309
technology side of it, the platform. Like, I'm

1313
00:44:58,309 --> 00:45:00,309
of the mind today with how controlled an

1314
00:45:00,309 --> 00:45:03,844
algorithms and AI that any online engagement is

1315
00:45:04,065 --> 00:45:05,125
that there's no

1316
00:45:05,425 --> 00:45:07,425
organic viral anymore. You know? So the point

1317
00:45:07,425 --> 00:45:08,784
is that little things will never be allowed

1318
00:45:08,784 --> 00:45:09,905
to get where they need to go. But

1319
00:45:09,905 --> 00:45:11,344
this is why we do, like, Whitney's talking

1320
00:45:11,344 --> 00:45:13,025
about, go back to paper and like, there's

1321
00:45:13,025 --> 00:45:14,679
ways around it, but it's the whole two

1322
00:45:14,679 --> 00:45:16,440
steps forward, one step back. That's what our

1323
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:18,119
world is these days. But I agree with

1324
00:45:18,119 --> 00:45:19,480
you, but it's like so, again, maybe to

1325
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:21,719
Hakim, like, what is the solution therein? Like

1326
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:23,640
like, you know, like, off top of my

1327
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:25,559
head, not being the super tech guy, the,

1328
00:45:25,559 --> 00:45:27,344
you know, decentralized Internet would be a way

1329
00:45:27,344 --> 00:45:28,704
to, like, try to get around that. You

1330
00:45:28,704 --> 00:45:30,385
know? But that's kind of the focal is,

1331
00:45:30,385 --> 00:45:32,385
like, how do we either choose to go

1332
00:45:32,385 --> 00:45:34,704
completely analog or find ways to go around

1333
00:45:34,704 --> 00:45:35,905
it? That's why I like what you do,

1334
00:45:35,905 --> 00:45:37,905
Hakim, is because there's a lot of pushback

1335
00:45:37,905 --> 00:45:39,585
on the general idea of using tech in,

1336
00:45:39,585 --> 00:45:41,184
you know, all crypto bad kind of a

1337
00:45:41,184 --> 00:45:43,199
mindset, and maybe they're right. But I there

1338
00:45:43,199 --> 00:45:44,800
are ways that we can use these things

1339
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,280
to, you know, work through that and fight

1340
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:48,639
back. But I don't know how you get

1341
00:45:48,639 --> 00:45:50,159
around that, James. Look at Twitter. Like, I

1342
00:45:50,159 --> 00:45:52,079
don't think any real ideas are getting the

1343
00:45:52,079 --> 00:45:54,159
light they deserve these days. We're we're not

1344
00:45:54,159 --> 00:45:57,065
going to win with algorithms anymore. It's just

1345
00:45:57,204 --> 00:46:00,264
not gonna happen. It's too tightened down.

1346
00:46:00,804 --> 00:46:02,644
I don't wanna give up and say they've

1347
00:46:02,644 --> 00:46:03,625
won, but

1348
00:46:03,925 --> 00:46:06,664
it really does look like it. So

1349
00:46:07,125 --> 00:46:09,869
we're gonna have to use email. As stupid

1350
00:46:09,869 --> 00:46:11,010
as that is is

1351
00:46:11,469 --> 00:46:13,789
we can we can use some low tech,

1352
00:46:13,789 --> 00:46:17,170
still fairly decentralized solution. Implicated in that, Hakeem.

1353
00:46:18,510 --> 00:46:20,109
I have the worst email person to have

1354
00:46:20,109 --> 00:46:22,204
to still use email. I have the worst

1355
00:46:22,204 --> 00:46:23,965
email situation of anybody I know. And I,

1356
00:46:23,965 --> 00:46:25,164
like, I'll just have to speak up and

1357
00:46:25,164 --> 00:46:26,445
say, I don't know about that because I

1358
00:46:26,445 --> 00:46:28,765
was saying right now that every single important

1359
00:46:28,765 --> 00:46:30,204
thing I get goes to spam. I like,

1360
00:46:30,204 --> 00:46:31,804
it's not it's almost a joke. And everything

1361
00:46:31,804 --> 00:46:33,485
that like, all the spam that's, like, the

1362
00:46:33,485 --> 00:46:35,769
obvious, like, buy these crypto you know, buy

1363
00:46:35,769 --> 00:46:37,690
this casino stuff is all in my inbox.

1364
00:46:37,690 --> 00:46:39,049
And no matter what I do, it seems

1365
00:46:39,049 --> 00:46:40,409
to stay that way. You know, I agree

1366
00:46:40,409 --> 00:46:42,409
with you. Like, that's the direction, but I'm

1367
00:46:42,409 --> 00:46:43,789
almost feeling like, you know,

1368
00:46:44,250 --> 00:46:46,569
carrier pigeon. You know? Like, it's the direct

1369
00:46:46,569 --> 00:46:48,704
my mind's going in. I feel like your

1370
00:46:48,704 --> 00:46:50,644
spam filter is not working properly.

1371
00:46:51,105 --> 00:46:53,344
But I will ask all four of us,

1372
00:46:53,344 --> 00:46:55,105
what is the most direct way we have

1373
00:46:55,105 --> 00:46:56,704
to reach our audience if it's not through

1374
00:46:56,704 --> 00:46:59,505
a third party platform? And that's why email

1375
00:46:59,505 --> 00:47:01,969
kind of falls in there. Right? That's why

1376
00:47:01,969 --> 00:47:04,210
sub stack is is now a thing. And

1377
00:47:04,530 --> 00:47:05,190
their tariffs.

1378
00:47:06,050 --> 00:47:08,609
R r s s. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's

1379
00:47:08,609 --> 00:47:10,609
right. Which I'm gonna die on that hill,

1380
00:47:10,609 --> 00:47:11,969
and I know no one's following it. In

1381
00:47:11,969 --> 00:47:14,094
mind. I still think it's right. Yeah. I

1382
00:47:14,094 --> 00:47:15,454
still have it on mine. Everyone asked me

1383
00:47:15,454 --> 00:47:16,414
that when I used to have it off,

1384
00:47:16,414 --> 00:47:17,775
so I include a little tab that says

1385
00:47:17,775 --> 00:47:19,855
RSS. Honestly, I get more questions about what

1386
00:47:19,855 --> 00:47:21,375
that even is these days than I do,

1387
00:47:21,375 --> 00:47:23,135
but for those that want it, it works.

1388
00:47:23,135 --> 00:47:25,055
Change your profile pic to the RSS. The

1389
00:47:25,055 --> 00:47:28,195
RSS. It's mine. It's gonna be my campaign.

1390
00:47:29,210 --> 00:47:30,969
You'll just get people saying, where is your

1391
00:47:30,969 --> 00:47:32,670
profile pick a volume of symbol?

1392
00:47:34,089 --> 00:47:34,989
Raise the volume.

1393
00:47:36,250 --> 00:47:36,750
Well,

1394
00:47:37,130 --> 00:47:39,630
I there's there's two things, and

1395
00:47:39,929 --> 00:47:42,409
there's two things here. Once we we need

1396
00:47:42,409 --> 00:47:45,175
a real call to action that is digital

1397
00:47:45,175 --> 00:47:47,594
into physical, which is something I've always promoted.

1398
00:47:47,974 --> 00:47:49,974
We have this digital connection. I mean, that's

1399
00:47:49,974 --> 00:47:50,474
why,

1400
00:47:50,934 --> 00:47:52,775
when Derek came up with the idea for

1401
00:47:52,775 --> 00:47:54,954
the greater reset, it was really powerful.

1402
00:47:55,255 --> 00:47:57,175
It I think it was the year before

1403
00:47:57,175 --> 00:47:59,390
the algorithm shifted shifted because it felt like

1404
00:47:59,390 --> 00:48:01,890
overnight there was this large following of people,

1405
00:48:01,950 --> 00:48:03,950
and we was lucky enough to connect us

1406
00:48:03,950 --> 00:48:05,630
to you and to a lot of people

1407
00:48:05,630 --> 00:48:07,630
around the world at that time. Now it's

1408
00:48:07,630 --> 00:48:09,950
not like that anymore, but still, there are

1409
00:48:09,950 --> 00:48:12,315
fragments of us. And I think the problem

1410
00:48:12,315 --> 00:48:13,914
is is that a lot let's just call

1411
00:48:13,914 --> 00:48:15,755
each other influencers. I don't know what the

1412
00:48:15,755 --> 00:48:18,635
hell we are, but, right, reporters, influencers Not

1413
00:48:18,635 --> 00:48:19,835
not a word that I like, but let

1414
00:48:19,835 --> 00:48:21,054
let you know, go ahead.

1415
00:48:21,675 --> 00:48:23,835
Correct me on that. But we're not really

1416
00:48:23,835 --> 00:48:26,340
working together. It's kind of like, I'm doing

1417
00:48:26,340 --> 00:48:28,099
my own thing over here. You're doing your

1418
00:48:28,099 --> 00:48:30,900
own thing. We're reporting on different things. You

1419
00:48:30,900 --> 00:48:33,300
have your own, area of knowledge, but there's

1420
00:48:33,300 --> 00:48:34,119
no coordination.

1421
00:48:34,579 --> 00:48:36,280
And I I wish there was

1422
00:48:36,579 --> 00:48:38,260
because it would make things a lot more

1423
00:48:38,260 --> 00:48:40,680
effective. And I and I think as No.

1424
00:48:40,974 --> 00:48:42,815
It mhmm. No. No. What do you guys

1425
00:48:42,815 --> 00:48:44,514
change? Must have a fight. No.

1426
00:48:45,934 --> 00:48:47,375
No. I don't think there needs to be

1427
00:48:47,375 --> 00:48:47,875
coordination.

1428
00:48:48,175 --> 00:48:49,775
You know, to me, this is what the

1429
00:48:49,775 --> 00:48:52,414
fundamental point of the Internet revolution is. Is

1430
00:48:52,414 --> 00:48:54,510
that back in the twentieth century in the

1431
00:48:54,510 --> 00:48:56,510
mass media paradigm that we were in, yeah,

1432
00:48:56,510 --> 00:48:59,150
of course, you needed to congregate and have

1433
00:48:59,150 --> 00:49:01,010
people working to in the same

1434
00:49:01,869 --> 00:49:03,710
usually in the same physical space, but at

1435
00:49:03,710 --> 00:49:05,789
least towards the same idea. So you'd have

1436
00:49:05,789 --> 00:49:08,065
the handful of, you know, Time Magazine and

1437
00:49:08,065 --> 00:49:09,425
New York Times and blah blah blah. And

1438
00:49:09,425 --> 00:49:10,864
you could have your left flavor and your

1439
00:49:10,864 --> 00:49:13,025
right flavor, but, you know, all working within

1440
00:49:13,025 --> 00:49:15,025
that same system. But the point of the

1441
00:49:15,025 --> 00:49:15,525
disintermediation

1442
00:49:15,905 --> 00:49:17,664
that the Internet has brought about is that

1443
00:49:17,664 --> 00:49:20,325
we can all be doing our own thing.

1444
00:49:20,545 --> 00:49:21,684
And each person

1445
00:49:22,070 --> 00:49:24,469
gets to be their own editor. And I

1446
00:49:24,789 --> 00:49:26,469
each person can say, you know, I love

1447
00:49:26,469 --> 00:49:29,269
what Hakim's doing. I love I I absolutely

1448
00:49:29,269 --> 00:49:31,670
love the daily wrap up. Off Guardian is

1449
00:49:31,670 --> 00:49:34,309
just nailing it every day. And, Corbett, he's

1450
00:49:34,309 --> 00:49:36,804
an asshole. I hate him. Screw him. And

1451
00:49:36,804 --> 00:49:38,565
they can decide. They can pick and choose

1452
00:49:38,565 --> 00:49:40,164
and Right. Tailor their feed the way they

1453
00:49:40,164 --> 00:49:42,244
want, and that's awesome. I think that's a

1454
00:49:42,244 --> 00:49:44,164
good thing. Why do we all have to

1455
00:49:44,164 --> 00:49:45,925
be on the same page working towards the

1456
00:49:45,925 --> 00:49:47,684
same agenda and agreeing on the same things?

1457
00:49:47,684 --> 00:49:49,784
No. Let's all be different and let people

1458
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:51,260
choose their own path forward.

1459
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:53,559
And Oh, interesting. It's it's kind of that

1460
00:49:53,559 --> 00:49:55,320
mindset of no, we all must be on

1461
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:56,760
the same page that I think is the

1462
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:58,760
is the old twentieth century mindset that we

1463
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:00,280
know where that leads. We know the type

1464
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:02,519
of, you know, media aggregation that that leads

1465
00:50:02,519 --> 00:50:04,244
to. I like this. I like so this

1466
00:50:04,244 --> 00:50:06,244
is interesting. I'm I I'll I'm gonna put

1467
00:50:06,244 --> 00:50:07,764
my thoughts somewhere in the middle. And, you

1468
00:50:07,764 --> 00:50:09,444
know, maybe let me kick can say give

1469
00:50:09,444 --> 00:50:10,804
us his thought on it because this is

1470
00:50:10,804 --> 00:50:12,684
actually a really important conversation that we always

1471
00:50:12,885 --> 00:50:14,644
it's it is important. It gets talked about

1472
00:50:14,644 --> 00:50:16,079
a lot is that, you know, let me

1473
00:50:16,079 --> 00:50:17,599
start with this. I think we can all

1474
00:50:17,599 --> 00:50:19,920
acknowledge that, I think it's been I would

1475
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:22,640
argue by design that people have been isolated

1476
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:24,400
and siloed in this field. Right? Like, we're

1477
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:26,480
we're echo chambered, and that goes for every

1478
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:28,640
possible even the corporate media, mainstream media people

1479
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:30,375
are the same way. But in the independent

1480
00:50:30,375 --> 00:50:32,454
media, I feel it has been driven to

1481
00:50:32,454 --> 00:50:34,855
where we are adversarial against each other. And

1482
00:50:34,855 --> 00:50:36,614
I I think in many ways, obviously, because

1483
00:50:36,614 --> 00:50:38,454
of infiltration, we should be questioning, but I

1484
00:50:38,454 --> 00:50:40,635
think it's could become almost like like,

1485
00:50:41,667 --> 00:50:42,400
I don't know what the right word would

1486
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:43,760
be, but just it's a problem. But at

1487
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:45,920
the same time, I I I it's refreshing

1488
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:47,679
here you say that, James, because I completely

1489
00:50:47,679 --> 00:50:49,920
agree with, you know, the over the like,

1490
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:51,519
the idea that we have to or if

1491
00:50:51,519 --> 00:50:53,199
you're if you're not, then you're not fighting

1492
00:50:53,199 --> 00:50:54,914
in the right direction. Like, you're right. We

1493
00:50:54,914 --> 00:50:56,434
have things have changed quite a bit, and

1494
00:50:56,434 --> 00:50:57,715
then it's almost like that can be to

1495
00:50:57,715 --> 00:50:59,394
our detriment. But I would argue it's somewhere

1496
00:50:59,394 --> 00:51:01,074
in the middle. Right? I think it's important

1497
00:51:01,074 --> 00:51:02,755
that we don't feel like we have to

1498
00:51:02,755 --> 00:51:04,275
be, like, part of some club and group.

1499
00:51:04,275 --> 00:51:05,474
And not to say that's what you were

1500
00:51:05,474 --> 00:51:06,914
saying, Hakeem, but that can be how it

1501
00:51:06,914 --> 00:51:08,460
is perceived that we're part of the click

1502
00:51:08,460 --> 00:51:10,559
or we're part of this echo chamber idea,

1503
00:51:11,099 --> 00:51:12,219
you know, so where we can focus on

1504
00:51:12,219 --> 00:51:13,420
what we like. But at the same time,

1505
00:51:13,420 --> 00:51:15,440
I do think it's important that we try

1506
00:51:15,579 --> 00:51:18,059
to get some coordination, some some like, what

1507
00:51:18,059 --> 00:51:19,340
we're doing with the IMA. I think that's

1508
00:51:19,340 --> 00:51:20,894
very important if it's done the right way.

1509
00:51:20,894 --> 00:51:22,015
So I think it's somewhere in the middle,

1510
00:51:22,015 --> 00:51:23,534
but I really like that this is getting

1511
00:51:23,534 --> 00:51:25,375
discussed because that's I didn't I don't hear

1512
00:51:25,375 --> 00:51:26,894
that opinion a lot, James, and I I

1513
00:51:26,894 --> 00:51:28,255
do agree with you. So what do you

1514
00:51:28,255 --> 00:51:29,375
what do you have any thoughts on that,

1515
00:51:29,375 --> 00:51:31,074
Kit, in that in that general point?

1516
00:51:33,950 --> 00:51:35,150
If not, I'm worried you're a threat on

1517
00:51:35,150 --> 00:51:35,650
spot.

1518
00:51:35,950 --> 00:51:36,690
Yeah. Like,

1519
00:51:38,990 --> 00:51:39,650
I think

1520
00:51:40,430 --> 00:51:41,890
in some ways, coordination

1521
00:51:43,630 --> 00:51:45,869
just happens. And I think that is the

1522
00:51:45,869 --> 00:51:47,869
the when and when it does, it's very

1523
00:51:47,869 --> 00:51:49,090
powerful. Like, I think

1524
00:51:49,844 --> 00:51:51,704
you go back to March 2020,

1525
00:51:52,485 --> 00:51:53,545
nobody said,

1526
00:51:54,324 --> 00:51:55,764
this is the big deal, guys. We have

1527
00:51:55,764 --> 00:51:57,364
to run around because COVID is the thing.

1528
00:51:57,364 --> 00:51:59,445
This is gonna end everything if we let

1529
00:51:59,445 --> 00:52:01,445
it. There was a feeling, and there was

1530
00:52:01,445 --> 00:52:02,744
a sort of an organic

1531
00:52:03,204 --> 00:52:03,704
coordination

1532
00:52:04,289 --> 00:52:06,530
of an army of individuals as opposed to

1533
00:52:06,530 --> 00:52:07,190
an army.

1534
00:52:07,969 --> 00:52:08,630
I think

1535
00:52:09,170 --> 00:52:11,010
that's when coordination is at its most powerful,

1536
00:52:11,010 --> 00:52:12,309
when it's a sort of unspoken

1537
00:52:12,769 --> 00:52:13,269
understanding.

1538
00:52:13,809 --> 00:52:15,010
That's a good point. I think that will

1539
00:52:15,010 --> 00:52:15,829
occur naturally

1540
00:52:16,289 --> 00:52:17,510
when it needs to.

1541
00:52:18,474 --> 00:52:20,155
Yeah. In the later chapters You know what?

1542
00:52:20,155 --> 00:52:21,054
There's a technological

1543
00:52:21,514 --> 00:52:23,355
implication to this. And, Hakim, I want you

1544
00:52:23,355 --> 00:52:25,375
to to to comment on this because

1545
00:52:25,675 --> 00:52:27,114
I I think that that sort of the

1546
00:52:27,114 --> 00:52:27,614
paradigm

1547
00:52:28,474 --> 00:52:29,695
is either

1548
00:52:30,090 --> 00:52:33,070
WebRings or RSS. And I say this because,

1549
00:52:33,130 --> 00:52:34,890
okay, for years and years, I I've been

1550
00:52:34,890 --> 00:52:36,570
doing this for nearly twenty years now. So

1551
00:52:36,570 --> 00:52:37,930
I remember, you know, back in the day,

1552
00:52:37,930 --> 00:52:40,250
years and years ago, people used to write

1553
00:52:40,250 --> 00:52:42,010
back. You know, actually come to think of

1554
00:52:42,010 --> 00:52:43,530
it, this was in the time when everyone

1555
00:52:43,530 --> 00:52:45,444
had their own website and people were used

1556
00:52:45,444 --> 00:52:47,284
to going to different websites. Now it's all

1557
00:52:47,284 --> 00:52:49,605
just YouTube and Instagram and whatever. But anyway,

1558
00:52:49,605 --> 00:52:51,204
back in the day and people would always

1559
00:52:51,204 --> 00:52:53,204
email me like, why don't all you guys

1560
00:52:53,204 --> 00:52:55,444
just get together and, you know, all and

1561
00:52:55,444 --> 00:52:56,885
so you're all in one place, so I

1562
00:52:56,885 --> 00:52:58,244
don't have to go to all these different

1563
00:52:58,244 --> 00:53:01,260
websites every day. And, some people would suggest,

1564
00:53:01,260 --> 00:53:03,340
for example, WebRings. Do people remember that back

1565
00:53:03,340 --> 00:53:05,039
in the, web one point o?

1566
00:53:05,579 --> 00:53:06,400
You would have,

1567
00:53:07,260 --> 00:53:09,360
like a little panel that had a link

1568
00:53:09,739 --> 00:53:12,219
to all these different blogs that are associated

1569
00:53:12,219 --> 00:53:13,420
with the one that you're reading. Right? Like

1570
00:53:13,420 --> 00:53:14,860
a drop down on the on the screen.

1571
00:53:14,860 --> 00:53:16,855
Exactly. Right? And so you could

1572
00:53:17,155 --> 00:53:18,994
and you'd share the link and you'd become

1573
00:53:18,994 --> 00:53:20,594
part of this web ring so people would

1574
00:53:20,594 --> 00:53:22,275
get caught in this ring, I guess. I

1575
00:53:22,275 --> 00:53:22,994
don't know.

1576
00:53:23,474 --> 00:53:24,755
And so people are what do you mean?

1577
00:53:24,755 --> 00:53:26,594
That kind of thing. But I I always

1578
00:53:26,594 --> 00:53:29,269
wanted to respond to those people. Who's you

1579
00:53:29,650 --> 00:53:31,809
guys? Because everybody's you guys is gonna be

1580
00:53:31,809 --> 00:53:33,329
different. And in fact, I remember one of

1581
00:53:33,329 --> 00:53:34,849
these people who were saying you guys should

1582
00:53:34,849 --> 00:53:35,510
get together,

1583
00:53:35,809 --> 00:53:38,130
was also saying, I can't remember who it

1584
00:53:38,130 --> 00:53:40,289
was, but someone some nine eleven truth or

1585
00:53:40,289 --> 00:53:41,730
something that they hated and they thought there

1586
00:53:41,730 --> 00:53:43,090
was a shill and whatever. It was someone

1587
00:53:43,090 --> 00:53:44,824
that I interviewed a lot and talked to.

1588
00:53:44,824 --> 00:53:46,664
So it's like, am I one of you

1589
00:53:46,664 --> 00:53:48,424
guys? Is that guy one of you guys?

1590
00:53:48,424 --> 00:53:50,424
You know, how do we but that's because

1591
00:53:50,424 --> 00:53:52,264
the paradigm is you guys should all be

1592
00:53:52,264 --> 00:53:54,284
together. Whereas the spontaneous

1593
00:53:54,664 --> 00:53:56,920
order that I hope is what Kit is

1594
00:53:56,920 --> 00:53:58,840
driving at, which I 100%

1595
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:01,079
agree. Yes. When I I am here because

1596
00:54:01,079 --> 00:54:03,019
I choose to be here. Right? And

1597
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,119
people voluntarily choosing to come together and work

1598
00:54:06,119 --> 00:54:07,800
on issues that they agree on, talk about

1599
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:10,885
them, etcetera. That's wonderful. That's spontaneous order. And

1600
00:54:10,885 --> 00:54:13,045
that I to my mind is reflected more

1601
00:54:13,045 --> 00:54:14,885
in the RSS model rather than the web

1602
00:54:14,885 --> 00:54:16,744
ring model. No. I don't have to be,

1603
00:54:16,885 --> 00:54:19,525
you know, literally linked and associated with this

1604
00:54:19,525 --> 00:54:20,905
and this and this and this website.

1605
00:54:21,285 --> 00:54:22,965
You get to choose. I want this guy

1606
00:54:22,965 --> 00:54:24,244
and this guy and this guy and this

1607
00:54:24,244 --> 00:54:25,929
guy in my feed, and you come to

1608
00:54:25,929 --> 00:54:28,809
that organically. It's the spontaneous order that happens

1609
00:54:28,809 --> 00:54:31,130
and yes, we're gonna we're we're probably gonna

1610
00:54:31,130 --> 00:54:33,289
meet like minded people and gravitate towards them

1611
00:54:33,289 --> 00:54:35,210
and work to together in directions that we

1612
00:54:35,210 --> 00:54:36,890
want, when we want, and when I have

1613
00:54:36,890 --> 00:54:38,110
a fundamental disagreement

1614
00:54:38,484 --> 00:54:41,445
and suddenly, I don't know, Ryan, you're advocating

1615
00:54:41,445 --> 00:54:43,385
for, you know, actually, we do need CBDCs

1616
00:54:43,525 --> 00:54:45,284
or something. I'll be like, screw you, Ryan.

1617
00:54:45,284 --> 00:54:46,804
I'm not working with you anymore, and it'll

1618
00:54:46,804 --> 00:54:49,045
be fine because we're not Right. Linked at

1619
00:54:49,045 --> 00:54:51,730
the hip. Right? That's that's the spontaneous order,

1620
00:54:51,730 --> 00:54:53,170
which should be I think should be the

1621
00:54:53,170 --> 00:54:54,530
vision for what we're doing. And I think,

1622
00:54:54,530 --> 00:54:56,849
technologically, that's reflected in the web ring slash

1623
00:54:56,849 --> 00:54:59,970
RSS paradigm. Right? In this this speaks to

1624
00:54:59,970 --> 00:55:01,570
something like I think it's and it it's

1625
00:55:01,570 --> 00:55:02,849
weird. So this is right in the middle

1626
00:55:02,849 --> 00:55:04,210
of this conversation, and I think most of

1627
00:55:04,210 --> 00:55:05,809
these issues are, where you don't which way

1628
00:55:05,809 --> 00:55:07,465
to go. Now alls. I think it's somewhere

1629
00:55:07,465 --> 00:55:09,144
in the middle. I I see this happening

1630
00:55:09,144 --> 00:55:11,085
a lot. Like, so, for example, on Twitter,

1631
00:55:11,864 --> 00:55:13,304
one thing I I noticed and it's still

1632
00:55:13,385 --> 00:55:14,905
you know, more choices are going in this

1633
00:55:14,905 --> 00:55:17,465
direction. Like, started to if you hashtag, you

1634
00:55:17,465 --> 00:55:19,704
get suppressed. Right? If you include links, you

1635
00:55:19,704 --> 00:55:21,224
get whatever the term is these days, you

1636
00:55:21,224 --> 00:55:23,269
get, you know, throttled. You you don't get

1637
00:55:23,269 --> 00:55:24,710
as seen as much. Suppression is I think

1638
00:55:24,710 --> 00:55:26,230
is the best term. And so what does

1639
00:55:26,230 --> 00:55:28,469
that you know, there's a narratives for why.

1640
00:55:28,469 --> 00:55:30,889
What does it ultimately lead to? Less coordination.

1641
00:55:31,030 --> 00:55:33,110
Right? No central location where you can go,

1642
00:55:33,110 --> 00:55:34,965
oh, that hashtag. What what what is everybody

1643
00:55:34,965 --> 00:55:36,644
saying? They you have to go down these

1644
00:55:36,644 --> 00:55:38,405
individual channels. And I think it's about trying

1645
00:55:38,405 --> 00:55:38,905
to

1646
00:55:39,525 --> 00:55:41,285
silo the way, you know, echo chamber the

1647
00:55:41,285 --> 00:55:42,644
way you look at things. But at the

1648
00:55:42,644 --> 00:55:44,244
same time, like you're saying, James, so it's

1649
00:55:44,244 --> 00:55:46,005
on us. That's the bigger picture of the

1650
00:55:46,005 --> 00:55:48,009
whole conversation today. Right? Go out there whether

1651
00:55:48,009 --> 00:55:49,769
s RSS or whatever else. The point of

1652
00:55:49,769 --> 00:55:51,289
RSS that, like, I think is James getting

1653
00:55:51,289 --> 00:55:52,889
at that I like, so you can be

1654
00:55:52,889 --> 00:55:54,170
the one that goes, I want this one.

1655
00:55:54,170 --> 00:55:55,609
I want that one. I want this guy,

1656
00:55:55,609 --> 00:55:57,210
and they show up on your screen. You

1657
00:55:57,210 --> 00:55:58,409
know? That's what how that really should work,

1658
00:55:58,409 --> 00:55:59,775
and you can use it that way. And

1659
00:55:59,775 --> 00:56:01,775
so you are do you are putting everyone

1660
00:56:01,775 --> 00:56:03,375
you like in that one group, but it's

1661
00:56:03,375 --> 00:56:05,135
your choice. And, you know, so it's it

1662
00:56:05,135 --> 00:56:06,335
is the middle ground of all of this.

1663
00:56:06,335 --> 00:56:08,414
And I think that's all like, everything we're

1664
00:56:08,414 --> 00:56:09,694
getting at, it seems, at least in my

1665
00:56:09,694 --> 00:56:10,815
mind, to be the path we should be

1666
00:56:10,815 --> 00:56:13,135
taking. And, again, self responsibility, which is a

1667
00:56:13,135 --> 00:56:14,909
tenet of everything we're talking about today. So

1668
00:56:14,909 --> 00:56:15,989
I think that's a good way to look

1669
00:56:15,989 --> 00:56:17,949
at it. Let me, let me respond because,

1670
00:56:18,190 --> 00:56:18,750
I think

1671
00:56:19,150 --> 00:56:21,230
yes. So I think I was maybe maybe

1672
00:56:21,230 --> 00:56:22,289
a little bit misunderstood

1673
00:56:23,309 --> 00:56:24,690
when I said coordinate.

1674
00:56:25,789 --> 00:56:28,065
No. I'm not saying that let's all pick

1675
00:56:28,065 --> 00:56:30,224
one idea and and just move forward with

1676
00:56:30,224 --> 00:56:32,625
that. And and, yes, spontaneous order is is

1677
00:56:32,625 --> 00:56:33,925
an important part of this.

1678
00:56:34,864 --> 00:56:36,545
But I I I would just say that

1679
00:56:36,545 --> 00:56:38,885
I I don't think there is enough collaboration.

1680
00:56:39,425 --> 00:56:41,025
And I think that we need to put

1681
00:56:41,025 --> 00:56:43,525
forth the models that do get people engaged

1682
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:45,400
so people can be a part of this.

1683
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:47,239
And and if they like the ideas they're

1684
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:49,000
put we're putting out to go out in

1685
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:50,699
the world and at least be an ambassador,

1686
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:52,680
and maybe they like it, maybe they don't

1687
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:54,360
like it, maybe they tweak it. But I

1688
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:56,360
I think I don't think there's enough two

1689
00:56:56,360 --> 00:56:57,260
way engagement

1690
00:56:57,724 --> 00:56:59,324
in a lot of the work that that

1691
00:56:59,324 --> 00:57:01,005
is happening right now. And, really, that's what

1692
00:57:01,005 --> 00:57:02,925
we need the most because the algorithms don't

1693
00:57:03,005 --> 00:57:04,925
they don't care about us. We're not getting

1694
00:57:04,925 --> 00:57:07,005
any traction. It's hard. We kind of have

1695
00:57:07,005 --> 00:57:08,684
our audiences. We can do our best to

1696
00:57:08,684 --> 00:57:10,769
grow and get on each other's podcast and

1697
00:57:10,769 --> 00:57:12,449
show and all that. But we really need

1698
00:57:12,449 --> 00:57:13,890
to get out in the real world because

1699
00:57:13,890 --> 00:57:15,809
that's where the fracturing is, and not the

1700
00:57:15,809 --> 00:57:17,809
fracturing is just getting worse. So I would

1701
00:57:17,809 --> 00:57:18,550
say, like,

1702
00:57:19,250 --> 00:57:19,910
one thing,

1703
00:57:20,449 --> 00:57:21,110
some people

1704
00:57:21,410 --> 00:57:22,289
talk to me and,

1705
00:57:23,075 --> 00:57:24,595
they they always tell me it leaves an

1706
00:57:24,595 --> 00:57:26,515
impression when I talk about the the phone

1707
00:57:26,515 --> 00:57:28,434
company and and what we're doing. And they

1708
00:57:28,434 --> 00:57:29,875
let me know, hey. I'm also doing that

1709
00:57:29,875 --> 00:57:32,035
in my neighborhood. I'm also helping people out.

1710
00:57:32,035 --> 00:57:34,195
You you you help me understand what a

1711
00:57:34,195 --> 00:57:36,789
good incentive it is to be helping people

1712
00:57:37,010 --> 00:57:38,309
to be making income

1713
00:57:38,690 --> 00:57:40,550
and to be doing work that I enjoy.

1714
00:57:40,849 --> 00:57:42,849
And so I think as, like, for lack

1715
00:57:42,849 --> 00:57:44,369
of a better world, being like a thought

1716
00:57:44,369 --> 00:57:46,530
leader, if you are starting a farm, you

1717
00:57:46,530 --> 00:57:48,449
really have to show that off. Be like,

1718
00:57:48,449 --> 00:57:50,625
here's here's what I did. You can do

1719
00:57:50,625 --> 00:57:53,184
this at home. Maybe maybe try it. And

1720
00:57:53,184 --> 00:57:55,184
the same thing with with promotions. It's like,

1721
00:57:55,184 --> 00:57:56,804
here's how I built an audience.

1722
00:57:57,585 --> 00:57:59,184
Please try to do the same thing. Let's

1723
00:57:59,184 --> 00:58:01,105
let's get more people on our side. And

1724
00:58:01,105 --> 00:58:02,465
so that's what I was trying to say

1725
00:58:02,465 --> 00:58:03,125
with coordination.

1726
00:58:03,630 --> 00:58:05,710
I totally agree it should be spontaneous. We

1727
00:58:05,710 --> 00:58:07,549
shouldn't just all be saying the same thing,

1728
00:58:07,549 --> 00:58:09,250
but I just hope we try

1729
00:58:09,710 --> 00:58:11,549
to get people activated to go out in

1730
00:58:11,549 --> 00:58:12,289
the real world.

1731
00:58:13,230 --> 00:58:14,909
Yeah, I think we all definitely agree with

1732
00:58:14,909 --> 00:58:17,154
that. It's just important to, you know, and

1733
00:58:17,154 --> 00:58:18,914
like everything we're doing today go ahead, James.

1734
00:58:18,914 --> 00:58:20,674
Sorry. Let's put that out as the question

1735
00:58:20,674 --> 00:58:21,734
then. What technologies

1736
00:58:22,034 --> 00:58:22,534
facilitate

1737
00:58:22,835 --> 00:58:26,275
human connection versus technologies that taketh away from

1738
00:58:26,275 --> 00:58:28,994
human connection? So That's hard. I mean, for

1739
00:58:28,994 --> 00:58:29,494
example,

1740
00:58:30,039 --> 00:58:30,539
freedom

1741
00:58:30,839 --> 00:58:32,299
cells is a brilliant idea,

1742
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:36,359
because it's the using the technology to find

1743
00:58:36,359 --> 00:58:38,679
people that you can then connect with in

1744
00:58:38,679 --> 00:58:41,239
the real world. Right? That should be if

1745
00:58:41,239 --> 00:58:42,984
if that is what we're interested in, we

1746
00:58:42,984 --> 00:58:45,945
should be thinking technologically. What technologies actually bring

1747
00:58:45,945 --> 00:58:47,724
people together in the physical space?

1748
00:58:48,585 --> 00:58:50,744
Hakeem, I'm all ears. What what do you

1749
00:58:50,744 --> 00:58:52,605
think? You have to build something

1750
00:58:53,144 --> 00:58:55,625
specifically for that. I mean, I'll just share

1751
00:58:55,625 --> 00:58:57,304
an idea that I had at my end

1752
00:58:57,704 --> 00:58:59,530
in my head, which is,

1753
00:59:00,389 --> 00:59:01,769
you could think think of it

1754
00:59:02,230 --> 00:59:03,130
like Mapbox

1755
00:59:03,429 --> 00:59:05,510
or something. And it's kind of like a

1756
00:59:05,510 --> 00:59:06,730
decentralized Craigslist.

1757
00:59:07,349 --> 00:59:07,849
There's,

1758
00:59:08,150 --> 00:59:10,409
so if someone wanted to it's a software

1759
00:59:10,469 --> 00:59:12,070
that you can run on your own. If

1760
00:59:12,070 --> 00:59:13,130
someone was

1761
00:59:13,764 --> 00:59:15,764
in New York City, they could run their

1762
00:59:15,764 --> 00:59:18,824
own New York City server, newyorkcity.mapbox.com.

1763
00:59:18,965 --> 00:59:20,485
And you could go into that server, and

1764
00:59:20,485 --> 00:59:22,565
there's just a map. And anyone can throw

1765
00:59:22,565 --> 00:59:24,644
anything on there, and it's kinda like a

1766
00:59:24,644 --> 00:59:26,885
bulletin board. It's all these things combined into

1767
00:59:26,885 --> 00:59:30,269
one that helps facilitate in person exchange. So,

1768
00:59:30,849 --> 00:59:32,469
I I think decentralized

1769
00:59:32,849 --> 00:59:33,969
software like that,

1770
00:59:34,369 --> 00:59:35,590
with with a geolocation

1771
00:59:35,969 --> 00:59:36,469
function

1772
00:59:36,769 --> 00:59:38,230
could be one of the best ways.

1773
00:59:38,690 --> 00:59:40,789
I think if you're doing something locally,

1774
00:59:41,784 --> 00:59:42,284
you

1775
00:59:42,585 --> 00:59:44,344
might need to bust out the QR code.

1776
00:59:44,344 --> 00:59:46,664
I mean, you know, people people use it,

1777
00:59:46,664 --> 00:59:48,664
you know, and slap some stickers around. Yeah.

1778
00:59:48,664 --> 00:59:50,744
I'm not against QR code as a principle,

1779
00:59:50,744 --> 00:59:52,105
like, on principle. Oh my god. I think

1780
00:59:52,105 --> 00:59:53,385
people get out of it. But yeah. It's

1781
00:59:53,625 --> 00:59:54,925
yeah. You know what I mean?

1782
00:59:55,289 --> 00:59:56,730
I have a really big weird like, maybe

1783
00:59:56,730 --> 00:59:58,730
I just that I'm overreacting to it, but

1784
00:59:58,730 --> 01:00:00,489
something about that has always put me out.

1785
01:00:00,489 --> 01:00:02,010
Like, I think one of the earliest things

1786
01:00:02,010 --> 01:00:03,369
I saw was, as you guys have talked

1787
01:00:03,369 --> 01:00:05,369
about, I'm sure, people putting stickers over them

1788
01:00:05,369 --> 01:00:06,809
and you're doing you know, or, you know,

1789
01:00:06,809 --> 01:00:08,829
them their weird ways they can be manipulated

1790
01:00:08,890 --> 01:00:10,284
to where you ultimately don't know you're giving

1791
01:00:10,284 --> 01:00:11,965
up information that you you know what I

1792
01:00:11,965 --> 01:00:13,405
mean? Like, the or even just the company

1793
01:00:13,405 --> 01:00:15,485
themselves could lie to you, and you're giving

1794
01:00:15,485 --> 01:00:16,925
more than you realize when you do it.

1795
01:00:16,925 --> 01:00:18,525
I just am so adverse to those things.

1796
01:00:18,525 --> 01:00:19,965
It's like people who were scared of the

1797
01:00:19,965 --> 01:00:22,409
barcodes back when they were introduced because they

1798
01:00:22,409 --> 01:00:24,170
all have, like, eight six six embedded in

1799
01:00:24,170 --> 01:00:25,389
them or whatever. Right?

1800
01:00:26,170 --> 01:00:27,929
But it's the same point, though, realistically. Well,

1801
01:00:27,929 --> 01:00:29,690
I guess if if scanning a barcode could,

1802
01:00:29,690 --> 01:00:31,690
like, transfer information from your phone, I would

1803
01:00:31,690 --> 01:00:32,889
say it's the same point. You know? It's

1804
01:00:32,889 --> 01:00:34,329
like just the fact that it's there makes

1805
01:00:34,329 --> 01:00:36,135
me worried about it. Not that it's, like,

1806
01:00:36,215 --> 01:00:38,135
you know, maybe it's 5%, 95%, but I'm

1807
01:00:38,135 --> 01:00:39,655
still worried about that 5%. You know? It's

1808
01:00:39,655 --> 01:00:41,835
like that's the like, anywhere with this stuff.

1809
01:00:42,534 --> 01:00:44,235
I just I just had a good idea.

1810
01:00:44,775 --> 01:00:45,275
So

1811
01:00:45,735 --> 01:00:48,235
our company, we ship internationally around the world.

1812
01:00:48,295 --> 01:00:50,614
I'm thinking about how much extra would it

1813
01:00:50,614 --> 01:00:51,994
cost us per package

1814
01:00:52,349 --> 01:00:54,670
if I put in 50 stickers in there

1815
01:00:54,670 --> 01:00:56,450
of something I wanted to promote.

1816
01:00:57,230 --> 01:00:59,230
And I know you guys send out books

1817
01:00:59,230 --> 01:01:01,489
everywhere. I know Ryan does merch.

1818
01:01:02,510 --> 01:01:04,430
And how hard would that be? And what

1819
01:01:04,430 --> 01:01:05,789
what could that you know, how could it

1820
01:01:05,789 --> 01:01:07,974
build up on each other? So so yeah.

1821
01:01:07,974 --> 01:01:09,155
I stickers.

1822
01:01:09,695 --> 01:01:11,775
Stickers. That's my solution. It's not even technology,

1823
01:01:11,775 --> 01:01:12,275
but

1824
01:01:12,655 --> 01:01:13,235
it's something.

1825
01:01:14,815 --> 01:01:16,655
I'm not sure. I in what way? So

1826
01:01:16,655 --> 01:01:18,815
so stickers like, go ahead. So okay. So,

1827
01:01:18,815 --> 01:01:21,190
like, for instance, for for above phone, if

1828
01:01:21,190 --> 01:01:23,050
I want to do in person marketing,

1829
01:01:24,390 --> 01:01:25,909
when you ship above phone in the box,

1830
01:01:25,909 --> 01:01:27,690
it also comes with 50

1831
01:01:28,070 --> 01:01:28,550
really,

1832
01:01:29,269 --> 01:01:31,429
small size stickers that are just really easy

1833
01:01:31,429 --> 01:01:33,750
to put put up. Oh, they land out.

1834
01:01:33,750 --> 01:01:35,765
Exactly. And you Yeah. You know, you you

1835
01:01:35,765 --> 01:01:37,364
hope your person is a star. It always

1836
01:01:37,364 --> 01:01:39,204
surprises me. We we sell stickers on the

1837
01:01:39,204 --> 01:01:40,885
New World Next Week store. And I you

1838
01:01:40,885 --> 01:01:42,724
know, personally, I just think, well, why why

1839
01:01:42,724 --> 01:01:44,405
do people even want them? But people do.

1840
01:01:44,405 --> 01:01:46,644
And they put them in places. And, you

1841
01:01:46,644 --> 01:01:48,724
know, someone sees the sticker and someone goes

1842
01:01:48,724 --> 01:01:50,005
to a site and it can change their

1843
01:01:50,005 --> 01:01:51,750
life. And it's something that I don't, you

1844
01:01:51,750 --> 01:01:53,590
know, personally, I don't do that, so I

1845
01:01:53,590 --> 01:01:55,030
don't think about it. But it is, I

1846
01:01:55,030 --> 01:01:56,170
mean, a stupidly

1847
01:01:56,710 --> 01:01:59,829
simple, but potentially really effective idea for getting

1848
01:01:59,829 --> 01:02:01,989
information out. I love it when people do,

1849
01:02:01,989 --> 01:02:03,750
like, and please, if you're listening, go do

1850
01:02:03,750 --> 01:02:05,430
it. Put a sticker somewhere it shouldn't be.

1851
01:02:05,430 --> 01:02:07,085
Go out there and put my DLF sticker

1852
01:02:07,085 --> 01:02:08,684
right on somewhere that, you know, like, that's

1853
01:02:08,764 --> 01:02:10,125
it's that, like, I agree with you entirely.

1854
01:02:10,125 --> 01:02:11,405
It's it's but I like it the way

1855
01:02:11,405 --> 01:02:12,764
that's like, like a protest in and of

1856
01:02:12,764 --> 01:02:14,125
itself. You know, go put it on the

1857
01:02:14,125 --> 01:02:15,344
back of a cop car. So

1858
01:02:16,444 --> 01:02:17,565
don't do that. You'll get in trouble. I

1859
01:02:17,565 --> 01:02:18,304
was just kidding.

1860
01:02:20,284 --> 01:02:21,984
Don't put my stickers. No.

1861
01:02:23,219 --> 01:02:24,420
But yeah. I but I so I I

1862
01:02:24,420 --> 01:02:26,019
mean, I definitely like the like, what what

1863
01:02:26,019 --> 01:02:27,619
I what I was thinking though is, like,

1864
01:02:27,619 --> 01:02:29,780
even freedom sells. You know, I I agree

1865
01:02:29,780 --> 01:02:31,219
that's a good example of, you know, going

1866
01:02:31,219 --> 01:02:32,280
through it, but arguably,

1867
01:02:32,579 --> 01:02:33,940
you could do that without tech. Right? You

1868
01:02:33,940 --> 01:02:35,460
could just put out flyers. Right? So I'm

1869
01:02:35,460 --> 01:02:36,815
try I was you said that, and I

1870
01:02:36,815 --> 01:02:38,174
was trying to think, is there even a

1871
01:02:38,174 --> 01:02:40,275
way? Like, is there a way that tech

1872
01:02:40,335 --> 01:02:42,255
could be used like that without, like, just

1873
01:02:42,255 --> 01:02:43,454
saying get rid of the tech and do

1874
01:02:43,454 --> 01:02:44,734
it do it the same way? Does it

1875
01:02:44,734 --> 01:02:46,255
just give another step to what you're already

1876
01:02:46,255 --> 01:02:47,614
doing? Do you guys have any thoughts of

1877
01:02:47,614 --> 01:02:49,375
where, you know, actual using tech like that?

1878
01:02:49,375 --> 01:02:50,369
Like, I mean, I think you could say,

1879
01:02:50,369 --> 01:02:52,289
like, a crypto thing or the Internet itself,

1880
01:02:52,289 --> 01:02:53,569
you know, how it's used back, but it's

1881
01:02:53,809 --> 01:02:55,569
you know, I think more this goes in

1882
01:02:55,569 --> 01:02:56,929
this direction with the way it's being done

1883
01:02:56,929 --> 01:02:58,869
now, I think it's increasingly less likely.

1884
01:02:59,969 --> 01:03:02,289
We're saying a pure tech solution that brings

1885
01:03:02,289 --> 01:03:04,875
people together in person? Or or anything. Like,

1886
01:03:04,875 --> 01:03:07,035
a a piece of technology that doesn't also

1887
01:03:07,035 --> 01:03:09,434
come with its negative that may out even

1888
01:03:09,434 --> 01:03:11,355
weigh the positive use of it. Like, with

1889
01:03:11,355 --> 01:03:13,434
the street themselves, clearly, there's surveillance and everything

1890
01:03:13,434 --> 01:03:15,355
else using that to get there. You know?

1891
01:03:15,355 --> 01:03:17,434
Any thoughts on pure a pure piece of

1892
01:03:17,434 --> 01:03:19,195
tech that exist that could be used that

1893
01:03:19,195 --> 01:03:20,699
way? I think in order to do that,

1894
01:03:20,699 --> 01:03:22,300
you're gonna have to sort of you're gonna

1895
01:03:22,300 --> 01:03:23,900
have to roll back. You're gonna have to,

1896
01:03:23,900 --> 01:03:26,380
like, you know, to stop. I'm surprised this

1897
01:03:26,380 --> 01:03:29,260
doesn't exist already, but maybe it does. Companies

1898
01:03:29,260 --> 01:03:30,000
that sell

1899
01:03:30,300 --> 01:03:32,644
old printers where you don't have subscribed to

1900
01:03:32,644 --> 01:03:35,045
buy ink, for example. I mean, that should

1901
01:03:35,045 --> 01:03:35,864
be a thing.

1902
01:03:37,045 --> 01:03:38,724
Hell, maybe maybe I'll stop doing off guard

1903
01:03:38,724 --> 01:03:39,704
and do that instead.

1904
01:03:42,724 --> 01:03:44,804
There's gonna be a market for old cars

1905
01:03:44,804 --> 01:03:46,824
that don't have kill switches or electronics.

1906
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:49,440
Right. I mean, this this there is gonna

1907
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:51,679
be a market for rolling back to more

1908
01:03:51,679 --> 01:03:54,079
reliable old technology that isn't wired up to

1909
01:03:54,079 --> 01:03:54,659
the grid.

1910
01:03:56,960 --> 01:03:57,460
And

1911
01:03:58,079 --> 01:03:59,599
just going back to the flyers thing, I

1912
01:03:59,599 --> 01:04:00,099
mean,

1913
01:04:01,164 --> 01:04:03,405
flyers do work. Flyers work more than you'd

1914
01:04:03,405 --> 01:04:05,164
think. I mean, it it's gonna feel like

1915
01:04:05,164 --> 01:04:06,684
to anyone that reads off Guardian and has

1916
01:04:06,684 --> 01:04:07,964
talked to me in the last six weeks

1917
01:04:07,964 --> 01:04:09,644
that I don't talk about anything else. But

1918
01:04:09,644 --> 01:04:11,005
I put up flyers on my cat, I'm

1919
01:04:11,005 --> 01:04:11,505
guessing,

1920
01:04:11,804 --> 01:04:14,179
and I joined Facebook groups, like, from us.

1921
01:04:14,179 --> 01:04:16,279
And I got far more response to flyers,

1922
01:04:16,579 --> 01:04:18,900
actual real person flyers, in my neighborhood of,

1923
01:04:18,900 --> 01:04:21,319
like, 200 people than I did in Facebook

1924
01:04:21,539 --> 01:04:22,759
with 20,000 people.

1925
01:04:24,259 --> 01:04:26,315
Flyers do work. They are I mean, and

1926
01:04:26,315 --> 01:04:27,594
if you can print them yourself without having

1927
01:04:27,594 --> 01:04:30,074
to subscribe to a an incredibly extortion of

1928
01:04:30,074 --> 01:04:32,974
printing thing Right. Then then all the better.

1929
01:04:34,474 --> 01:04:35,674
I I I love that. I mean, this

1930
01:04:35,755 --> 01:04:37,755
that's honestly my mindset. And I I hate

1931
01:04:37,755 --> 01:04:39,730
to be like, I think it's important that

1932
01:04:39,730 --> 01:04:41,289
we try to see a way that these

1933
01:04:41,410 --> 01:04:43,110
you know, like like, it's the same point.

1934
01:04:43,250 --> 01:04:45,489
Internet fighting back. Like, something like that. But,

1935
01:04:45,489 --> 01:04:47,809
honestly, my my gut, every way we anyway,

1936
01:04:47,809 --> 01:04:49,890
I'm like the opposite direction. You know? Go

1937
01:04:49,890 --> 01:04:52,094
back to flyers. Go back to pre tech

1938
01:04:52,094 --> 01:04:53,534
kind of solutions. I mean, that just seems

1939
01:04:53,534 --> 01:04:54,974
to be the obvious right now that makes

1940
01:04:54,974 --> 01:04:56,494
the most sense. But I'd like to believe

1941
01:04:56,494 --> 01:04:58,175
that there are ways we could find, you

1942
01:04:58,175 --> 01:05:00,094
you know, maneuver through this. Like, your the

1943
01:05:00,094 --> 01:05:01,614
Google phone. I mean, I do think that

1944
01:05:01,614 --> 01:05:03,614
is a positive step for most people. Like,

1945
01:05:03,614 --> 01:05:05,394
to at least try to pull themselves away

1946
01:05:05,614 --> 01:05:07,420
in any ways that they can. I I,

1947
01:05:07,420 --> 01:05:08,619
you know, I that's what I would leave.

1948
01:05:08,619 --> 01:05:10,380
I was gonna ask in general that like,

1949
01:05:10,380 --> 01:05:10,880
so

1950
01:05:11,260 --> 01:05:12,619
if if we get to a point I

1951
01:05:12,619 --> 01:05:13,739
mean, we can end on this if if

1952
01:05:13,739 --> 01:05:14,960
we're coming to that time.

1953
01:05:15,260 --> 01:05:17,280
If we got to a point, hypothetically, where,

1954
01:05:17,420 --> 01:05:18,860
you know, let's just say you got rid

1955
01:05:18,860 --> 01:05:20,765
of of all of the like, government didn't

1956
01:05:20,765 --> 01:05:23,105
exist or what, you know, hypothetical, no surveillance,

1957
01:05:23,405 --> 01:05:24,385
all the problems

1958
01:05:24,684 --> 01:05:26,465
that we're talking about didn't exist,

1959
01:05:26,925 --> 01:05:28,545
would you still think tech was necessary?

1960
01:05:28,845 --> 01:05:29,885
Like, do you think there's a you know,

1961
01:05:29,885 --> 01:05:31,644
like, kinda James' earlier question, but to the

1962
01:05:31,644 --> 01:05:33,639
furthest extent of it, like, if we got

1963
01:05:33,639 --> 01:05:35,480
beyond that, do we then will we just

1964
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:37,239
completely go the other direction? What do you

1965
01:05:37,239 --> 01:05:39,320
mean? Would we just never talk to each

1966
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:40,920
other again? Well, what do you mean? We

1967
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:42,119
would go see each other in person. We

1968
01:05:42,119 --> 01:05:43,559
would you know, you know, like, the real

1969
01:05:43,559 --> 01:05:45,320
world kind of stuff. Like, look. This it's

1970
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:47,244
about convenience. That's what it comes down to.

1971
01:05:47,244 --> 01:05:48,764
Like, yes. You're far away. And, yes, you

1972
01:05:48,764 --> 01:05:50,364
know, there are ways that I'm I'm not

1973
01:05:50,364 --> 01:05:52,445
talking, like, pre you know, use this use

1974
01:05:52,445 --> 01:05:53,885
a cord phone. I mean, it's it's a

1975
01:05:53,885 --> 01:05:55,164
it's a point of how far you wanna

1976
01:05:55,164 --> 01:05:56,284
go. Right? But there are a lot of

1977
01:05:56,284 --> 01:05:58,144
people that feel like, you know,

1978
01:05:58,764 --> 01:06:00,670
the the tech in and of itself was

1979
01:06:00,670 --> 01:06:02,510
kind of like the the direction that took

1980
01:06:02,510 --> 01:06:04,210
us in a bad path, like, whole Kosinski

1981
01:06:04,269 --> 01:06:05,949
kind of mindset. Right? And so you you

1982
01:06:05,949 --> 01:06:07,650
know, the question is if we got

1983
01:06:08,670 --> 01:06:10,829
beyond or, I guess, it just never happened

1984
01:06:10,829 --> 01:06:12,864
hypothetically where there was no surveillance, there was

1985
01:06:12,864 --> 01:06:13,969
any of these problems,

1986
01:06:14,375 --> 01:06:16,054
would you in your mindset or anybody in

1987
01:06:16,054 --> 01:06:17,894
this conversation, will we argue that tech would

1988
01:06:17,974 --> 01:06:19,255
that we would just get rid of it

1989
01:06:19,255 --> 01:06:20,775
entirely? Because you were saying, like, there are

1990
01:06:20,775 --> 01:06:22,375
ways that tech could be used beyond it.

1991
01:06:22,375 --> 01:06:24,234
So I would treat it like my diet.

1992
01:06:24,614 --> 01:06:25,434
Sorry. Go ahead.

1993
01:06:25,894 --> 01:06:27,510
Well, this it a very quick thing? It's

1994
01:06:27,510 --> 01:06:29,430
a very quick thing. You mentioned wired phones,

1995
01:06:29,430 --> 01:06:31,190
but are those even an option where you

1996
01:06:31,190 --> 01:06:32,250
guys live? Because

1997
01:06:32,789 --> 01:06:35,190
hardwired phones don't exist in this country anymore.

1998
01:06:35,190 --> 01:06:36,670
Like, the phone network, they will I I

1999
01:06:36,750 --> 01:06:38,390
over the Internet. I I could get I

2000
01:06:38,390 --> 01:06:40,855
have one more question actually. Telecoms in The

2001
01:06:40,855 --> 01:06:44,295
US are not required to upkeep their pots

2002
01:06:44,295 --> 01:06:44,795
lines.

2003
01:06:45,494 --> 01:06:48,235
So Yeah. Makes sense. Your mileage will vary.

2004
01:06:48,614 --> 01:06:50,375
Does that mean that mean it'll stop working

2005
01:06:50,375 --> 01:06:52,135
over time? Is that what that means? Yeah.

2006
01:06:52,135 --> 01:06:54,555
I mean, it's not guaranteed it's not guaranteed

2007
01:06:54,695 --> 01:06:56,890
to work. Of course. Ask them to install,

2008
01:06:56,890 --> 01:06:58,410
like, a direct plug for your computer these

2009
01:06:58,410 --> 01:06:59,769
days, and they'll look at you like you're

2010
01:06:59,769 --> 01:07:01,289
crazy. You know? It's but they'll still do

2011
01:07:01,289 --> 01:07:02,590
it, at least in at least Tennessee.

2012
01:07:03,050 --> 01:07:04,989
Ryan, I think I would still use technology

2013
01:07:05,130 --> 01:07:07,309
quite a lot. I just wouldn't actively

2014
01:07:07,610 --> 01:07:08,429
use technology.

2015
01:07:08,730 --> 01:07:10,349
Like, I would have maybe

2016
01:07:10,885 --> 01:07:12,744
a screen time of 20%

2017
01:07:12,965 --> 01:07:14,644
less than I do because I still wanna

2018
01:07:14,644 --> 01:07:16,565
learn about the world and stay in touch

2019
01:07:16,565 --> 01:07:18,405
with people. And I think it has a

2020
01:07:18,405 --> 01:07:20,885
really important function in that sense, not to

2021
01:07:20,885 --> 01:07:21,385
mention

2022
01:07:22,005 --> 01:07:22,985
kind of the automation,

2023
01:07:24,244 --> 01:07:24,985
in the garden

2024
01:07:25,469 --> 01:07:25,869
or,

2025
01:07:26,269 --> 01:07:27,869
in in the work. It's it is a

2026
01:07:27,869 --> 01:07:30,030
really useful thing. I don't think I'm not,

2027
01:07:30,030 --> 01:07:30,530
like,

2028
01:07:31,710 --> 01:07:33,710
being data driven is a good thing, I

2029
01:07:33,710 --> 01:07:35,710
think. It's a it shouldn't be it shouldn't

2030
01:07:35,710 --> 01:07:36,210
be

2031
01:07:36,510 --> 01:07:38,954
the only measure of success, but it is

2032
01:07:38,954 --> 01:07:40,954
it is a good thing, and and computers

2033
01:07:40,954 --> 01:07:43,614
are really, really helpful. It's just too bad

2034
01:07:43,675 --> 01:07:44,175
that,

2035
01:07:45,035 --> 01:07:47,994
most of the infrastructure is is owned by,

2036
01:07:48,315 --> 01:07:50,474
peep who are tyrants. It's it's just too

2037
01:07:50,474 --> 01:07:52,829
bad. There's a small and but growing number

2038
01:07:52,829 --> 01:07:55,010
of people who are using d googled phones.

2039
01:07:55,230 --> 01:07:57,630
And I do think this will be I

2040
01:07:57,630 --> 01:07:59,230
think the next few years, there are going

2041
01:07:59,230 --> 01:08:01,469
to be a number of apps that are

2042
01:08:01,469 --> 01:08:02,609
already very revolutionary.

2043
01:08:02,909 --> 01:08:04,369
I'll give you guys an example.

2044
01:08:05,445 --> 01:08:07,125
So what do you do if you can't

2045
01:08:07,125 --> 01:08:09,045
use the bank? Digital ID is already here.

2046
01:08:09,045 --> 01:08:12,244
Well, there's a, there's an app called Have

2047
01:08:12,244 --> 01:08:13,224
No Reto,

2048
01:08:13,845 --> 01:08:17,524
which is a it's a Monero marketplace, and

2049
01:08:17,524 --> 01:08:20,479
it's really amazing. You can you can put

2050
01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:22,159
your Monero on there, and then people can

2051
01:08:22,159 --> 01:08:23,840
pay you in in multiple different ways. They

2052
01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:25,699
can even send you cash in the mail.

2053
01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:28,739
Now it works. I'll say that much.

2054
01:08:29,039 --> 01:08:29,520
And,

2055
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:32,479
it's one of the only peer to peer

2056
01:08:32,479 --> 01:08:35,484
marketplaces. So if there wasn't anything, I'd I'd

2057
01:08:35,484 --> 01:08:37,484
still see myself using a tool like that

2058
01:08:37,484 --> 01:08:39,885
in in some cases. But 80% of my

2059
01:08:39,885 --> 01:08:41,184
life, I wouldn't need to.

2060
01:08:41,484 --> 01:08:43,484
Yeah. I think I probably would do at

2061
01:08:43,484 --> 01:08:44,925
least at the beginning, you know, but, like,

2062
01:08:44,925 --> 01:08:47,189
I think my personal opinion is, you know,

2063
01:08:47,189 --> 01:08:48,429
like like, even with, like, you know, guard

2064
01:08:48,550 --> 01:08:50,310
no. I don't want any technology. I'd rather

2065
01:08:50,310 --> 01:08:51,829
be out. You know? But in some cases,

2066
01:08:51,829 --> 01:08:53,430
like you're saying, like, I probably wanna talk

2067
01:08:53,430 --> 01:08:54,550
to my friends that live in the other

2068
01:08:54,550 --> 01:08:55,909
part of the country. You know? But it's

2069
01:08:55,909 --> 01:08:57,670
it's an interesting thought, though, is to think

2070
01:08:57,670 --> 01:08:59,750
about. You know? Is it we rationalize certain

2071
01:08:59,750 --> 01:09:01,965
things now for certain reasons because of our

2072
01:09:01,965 --> 01:09:04,204
circumstances and would that change if we weren't

2073
01:09:04,204 --> 01:09:06,204
being put in this position? You know, it's

2074
01:09:06,204 --> 01:09:07,904
worth thinking about. Well,

2075
01:09:08,284 --> 01:09:09,804
I'm not American, so let me give you

2076
01:09:09,804 --> 01:09:12,284
the non American perspective on this. I, just

2077
01:09:12,284 --> 01:09:14,465
recently learned of something called the rotato,

2078
01:09:14,979 --> 01:09:17,779
which apparently rotates your potato so you can

2079
01:09:17,779 --> 01:09:19,779
peel so you can peel it while it's

2080
01:09:19,939 --> 01:09:22,020
I I don't know. That to me is

2081
01:09:22,020 --> 01:09:24,659
the wonders of modern technology and the reason

2082
01:09:24,659 --> 01:09:26,439
why I don't think we should go completely

2083
01:09:26,500 --> 01:09:27,000
Luddite.

2084
01:09:27,939 --> 01:09:28,920
No. More seriously,

2085
01:09:30,654 --> 01:09:32,814
I think there is a tendency. Like, you

2086
01:09:32,814 --> 01:09:35,614
know, conversations like this, I understand why they

2087
01:09:35,614 --> 01:09:37,614
tend to end up at that spot. Like,

2088
01:09:37,614 --> 01:09:38,114
yeah.

2089
01:09:38,734 --> 01:09:40,814
Undoubtedly, the more we go into the digital

2090
01:09:40,814 --> 01:09:42,255
realm, the more we are giving up of

2091
01:09:42,255 --> 01:09:44,969
our natural human ness. We wanna preserve our

2092
01:09:44,969 --> 01:09:46,250
human ness, so we gotta go in the

2093
01:09:46,250 --> 01:09:48,889
other direction. It kind of logically comes to

2094
01:09:48,889 --> 01:09:51,289
that conclusion. Okay. So let's get rid of

2095
01:09:51,289 --> 01:09:53,389
technology, at least to the extent possible.

2096
01:09:54,489 --> 01:09:57,050
But we are swimming upstream when we do

2097
01:09:57,050 --> 01:09:59,625
that in every possible way. Not just societally,

2098
01:09:59,685 --> 01:10:02,824
but against human nature itself. Because this technology

2099
01:10:03,364 --> 01:10:04,264
does not exist

2100
01:10:05,204 --> 01:10:07,925
just because it is useful for tyrannizing and

2101
01:10:07,925 --> 01:10:10,484
enslaving people. That's certainly an added bonus for

2102
01:10:10,484 --> 01:10:12,425
the psychopaths in the top of the kakasocracy,

2103
01:10:12,804 --> 01:10:14,244
but it's I don't think that's the reason

2104
01:10:14,244 --> 01:10:16,300
why it exists. It exists because as human

2105
01:10:16,300 --> 01:10:16,800
beings

2106
01:10:17,100 --> 01:10:18,719
we have the natural desire

2107
01:10:19,100 --> 01:10:19,920
for connection

2108
01:10:20,300 --> 01:10:22,000
and communication with other people.

2109
01:10:22,380 --> 01:10:25,659
And that extends beyond that. Our our,

2110
01:10:26,140 --> 01:10:26,640
rapacity

2111
01:10:27,354 --> 01:10:30,875
for human connection extends beyond the physical boundaries

2112
01:10:30,875 --> 01:10:31,935
of our neighborhood.

2113
01:10:32,555 --> 01:10:33,055
And

2114
01:10:33,435 --> 01:10:35,195
it may I'm sure it is true that

2115
01:10:35,195 --> 01:10:36,795
you will get more of a response to

2116
01:10:36,795 --> 01:10:38,555
physical flyers in your neighborhood than you will

2117
01:10:38,555 --> 01:10:40,395
to, you know, the 20,000 people on your

2118
01:10:40,395 --> 01:10:41,295
Facebook feed.

2119
01:10:41,800 --> 01:10:45,020
But those responses are limited in the geographical

2120
01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:47,420
confines of your local area.

2121
01:10:48,039 --> 01:10:50,380
If you want connection with the wider world,

2122
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:53,720
there we need technology. And that is why

2123
01:10:53,720 --> 01:10:54,380
the technology

2124
01:10:54,760 --> 01:10:57,944
exists. We have been scrabbling and eking out

2125
01:10:58,324 --> 01:11:00,265
existences for thousands of years,

2126
01:11:00,645 --> 01:11:03,524
gradually building up technology to increase our ability

2127
01:11:03,524 --> 01:11:06,805
to move, to travel, to communicate. And I

2128
01:11:06,805 --> 01:11:08,104
don't think we can

2129
01:11:08,800 --> 01:11:10,479
discount that. I don't think we can work

2130
01:11:10,479 --> 01:11:12,319
against that. That's I think that's part of

2131
01:11:12,319 --> 01:11:14,800
human the human nature of what we what

2132
01:11:14,800 --> 01:11:16,800
we are as human beings, trying to reach

2133
01:11:16,800 --> 01:11:18,579
out, trying to connect with other people.

2134
01:11:19,119 --> 01:11:21,199
So I don't think it's as easy as

2135
01:11:21,199 --> 01:11:22,880
saying, let's just get rid of the digital

2136
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:24,284
space and only go physical.

2137
01:11:25,164 --> 01:11:26,545
We can try, but

2138
01:11:27,005 --> 01:11:30,064
we, we would be swimming upstream. So

2139
01:11:30,845 --> 01:11:32,204
And a lot of it exists to make

2140
01:11:32,204 --> 01:11:34,525
your life easier, so you have more time

2141
01:11:34,525 --> 01:11:36,704
to play guitar or to hang out.

2142
01:11:38,204 --> 01:11:41,210
And indeed, like, we're sort of because there

2143
01:11:41,210 --> 01:11:42,590
is this pushback, we're

2144
01:11:43,610 --> 01:11:45,289
we're sort of losing sight of the reality

2145
01:11:45,289 --> 01:11:47,369
and that there is it is a pushback

2146
01:11:47,369 --> 01:11:48,350
against progress.

2147
01:11:48,650 --> 01:11:52,190
Like, the late nineties, February, 02/2010,

2148
01:11:52,695 --> 01:11:53,435
this technology

2149
01:11:53,975 --> 01:11:56,135
was a was a way was a totally,

2150
01:11:56,534 --> 01:11:58,215
new way for people to communicate. Like, it

2151
01:11:58,215 --> 01:12:00,454
did push things. Like, nine eleven truth would

2152
01:12:00,454 --> 01:12:02,155
never have taken off the way it did.

2153
01:12:02,215 --> 01:12:04,375
Right. In fact, it it took a few

2154
01:12:04,375 --> 01:12:06,375
years to take off because the technology had

2155
01:12:06,375 --> 01:12:07,655
to be there in order for people to

2156
01:12:07,655 --> 01:12:08,155
communicate

2157
01:12:08,500 --> 01:12:10,899
outside the usual channels. And, like, the old

2158
01:12:10,899 --> 01:12:13,460
media exists because of that technology. And all

2159
01:12:13,460 --> 01:12:16,340
of this verify your age, verify your identity,

2160
01:12:16,340 --> 01:12:18,420
it'll push back against the losing control of

2161
01:12:18,420 --> 01:12:20,599
the narrative that the technology itself facilitated.

2162
01:12:21,835 --> 01:12:23,515
Right. And that's that's always the important point.

2163
01:12:23,515 --> 01:12:24,954
That that's the kind of general point that

2164
01:12:24,954 --> 01:12:26,414
I'm like, when I the Internet

2165
01:12:26,795 --> 01:12:28,335
being a tool used arguably

2166
01:12:28,954 --> 01:12:30,395
to control us is now used to fight

2167
01:12:30,395 --> 01:12:31,835
back. You know, it's it's always an important

2168
01:12:31,835 --> 01:12:33,354
point. I mean, that's the same every time

2169
01:12:33,354 --> 01:12:36,060
we've had cryptocurrency conversations, it's always something we

2170
01:12:36,060 --> 01:12:37,659
include. Right? I mean, it's the ideas that,

2171
01:12:37,659 --> 01:12:39,260
you know, yes, you can argue you can

2172
01:12:39,260 --> 01:12:41,100
see clearly that all of it I mean,

2173
01:12:41,100 --> 01:12:42,699
that's the whole point about technology I argue

2174
01:12:42,699 --> 01:12:44,220
in general. Like and kinda what you're saying

2175
01:12:44,220 --> 01:12:45,659
there, kid, is some people may go, you

2176
01:12:45,659 --> 01:12:47,100
know, baby out with the bathwater kind of

2177
01:12:47,100 --> 01:12:48,460
thing where it's like, oh, this is bad

2178
01:12:48,460 --> 01:12:50,564
because, you know, and then, you know, ignore

2179
01:12:50,625 --> 01:12:51,125
possible

2180
01:12:51,505 --> 01:12:53,264
developments that could benefit and help. You know?

2181
01:12:53,264 --> 01:12:55,264
But I I I get it. I complete

2182
01:12:55,344 --> 01:12:57,185
I think we all understand why people have

2183
01:12:57,185 --> 01:12:59,104
that overreaction right now, sort of like, you

2184
01:12:59,104 --> 01:13:00,465
know, any number of things you can point

2185
01:13:00,465 --> 01:13:01,979
out. And I agree, though. I agree that

2186
01:13:01,979 --> 01:13:04,060
there's obvious uses where this continues to go.

2187
01:13:04,060 --> 01:13:05,340
I I so I just think it's a

2188
01:13:05,340 --> 01:13:07,260
individual choice. You know? And I think that's

2189
01:13:07,260 --> 01:13:09,439
that balance between your per your liberty

2190
01:13:09,739 --> 01:13:12,140
and your convenience. You know? Or or more

2191
01:13:12,140 --> 01:13:13,979
possible choices than that. And so I think

2192
01:13:13,979 --> 01:13:16,055
that's why this conversation is being had. And

2193
01:13:16,055 --> 01:13:18,135
I think the possible solutions you know, and

2194
01:13:18,135 --> 01:13:19,494
there's all the things we didn't even get

2195
01:13:19,494 --> 01:13:21,655
into. You know, VPNs, basic things we talked

2196
01:13:21,655 --> 01:13:23,895
about in order to help yourself stay private.

2197
01:13:23,895 --> 01:13:24,715
Right. You know?

2198
01:13:25,095 --> 01:13:26,935
I I was hoping, yes. I feel kind

2199
01:13:26,935 --> 01:13:29,015
of bad because that was the whole context

2200
01:13:29,015 --> 01:13:31,250
for this, and we haven't really proposed many

2201
01:13:31,250 --> 01:13:31,750
solutions.

2202
01:13:32,210 --> 01:13:34,369
So I just wanted to mention, mention a

2203
01:13:34,369 --> 01:13:36,770
few things. It's like we we will need,

2204
01:13:37,250 --> 01:13:38,310
alternative networks

2205
01:13:38,689 --> 01:13:41,569
that work not just over the Internet, but,

2206
01:13:41,810 --> 01:13:45,090
hopefully, our own radios, like long range radio

2207
01:13:45,090 --> 01:13:45,590
networks.

2208
01:13:46,024 --> 01:13:47,864
So there there's a few that people can

2209
01:13:47,864 --> 01:13:48,524
look up,

2210
01:13:48,824 --> 01:13:50,445
look into. One is Reticulum,

2211
01:13:51,145 --> 01:13:53,645
which is a framework for building,

2212
01:13:54,664 --> 01:13:55,164
decentralized

2213
01:13:55,945 --> 01:13:56,445
applications

2214
01:13:56,984 --> 01:13:57,484
and,

2215
01:13:58,909 --> 01:14:00,909
with any and with any mode of transport.

2216
01:14:00,909 --> 01:14:02,130
So it could be radios.

2217
01:14:02,750 --> 01:14:04,989
It could be connect your laptop connected to

2218
01:14:04,989 --> 01:14:06,530
the Internet. It could be your phone.

2219
01:14:06,989 --> 01:14:09,170
And, I have some friends in The UK,

2220
01:14:09,550 --> 01:14:12,130
their BCHAT network, and they're working on

2221
01:14:12,594 --> 01:14:15,554
radios that can actually travel 60 miles or

2222
01:14:15,554 --> 01:14:17,335
more using post quantum encryption.

2223
01:14:17,715 --> 01:14:19,234
If you wanna check them out, they're at

2224
01:14:19,234 --> 01:14:20,614
bchat.network.

2225
01:14:21,234 --> 01:14:21,635
And,

2226
01:14:22,994 --> 01:14:25,154
it's solutions like these that you might find

2227
01:14:25,154 --> 01:14:27,554
on households. Instead of relying on your nearest

2228
01:14:27,554 --> 01:14:29,039
cell towers, you might have to build a

2229
01:14:29,039 --> 01:14:29,539
tower

2230
01:14:30,000 --> 01:14:32,880
at your house, like like, twenty, forty feet

2231
01:14:32,880 --> 01:14:34,079
in the air, and and that could be

2232
01:14:34,079 --> 01:14:37,300
kinda cool. Those can be the low, high-tech

2233
01:14:37,359 --> 01:14:39,520
things that we use to, to stay in

2234
01:14:39,520 --> 01:14:40,659
touch with each other.

2235
01:14:41,405 --> 01:14:43,885
I I think that, what the viewer could

2236
01:14:43,885 --> 01:14:45,885
do today, if you're you're interested in this,

2237
01:14:45,885 --> 01:14:48,305
is to look at things like self hosting,

2238
01:14:49,085 --> 01:14:51,324
which is just the process of running your

2239
01:14:51,324 --> 01:14:53,659
own software at home. That will take you

2240
01:14:53,659 --> 01:14:55,739
down a rabbit hole that I've gone down

2241
01:14:55,739 --> 01:14:59,179
into myself into, you know, administering your own

2242
01:14:59,179 --> 01:14:59,679
server,

2243
01:15:00,300 --> 01:15:02,399
learning how the Internet works. But,

2244
01:15:02,779 --> 01:15:04,219
yeah, you can get to a place where

2245
01:15:04,219 --> 01:15:07,064
your own digital life is self sufficient. Then

2246
01:15:07,064 --> 01:15:09,224
you could start to help, your your friends

2247
01:15:09,224 --> 01:15:10,664
in the neighborhood. You could give them accounts

2248
01:15:10,664 --> 01:15:12,425
on your servers and stuff. So I think

2249
01:15:12,425 --> 01:15:14,264
those are two really valuable things you can

2250
01:15:14,264 --> 01:15:14,764
do.

2251
01:15:15,224 --> 01:15:17,784
For anyone who is worried about how the

2252
01:15:17,784 --> 01:15:19,224
phones play a part in this, you could

2253
01:15:19,224 --> 01:15:20,604
look at d Googled phones.

2254
01:15:21,039 --> 01:15:21,539
GrapheneOS

2255
01:15:21,920 --> 01:15:24,819
is obviously, I think, the de facto

2256
01:15:25,119 --> 01:15:28,179
most secure alternative operating system to date.

2257
01:15:28,719 --> 01:15:31,619
So really it's a really amazing, consistent project

2258
01:15:32,159 --> 01:15:35,074
that has it's not just an alternative. It's

2259
01:15:35,074 --> 01:15:37,235
actually better in a lot of ways than

2260
01:15:37,235 --> 01:15:37,735
standard

2261
01:15:38,195 --> 01:15:40,775
Google or Android. There are security features

2262
01:15:41,315 --> 01:15:43,655
in the processors themselves that,

2263
01:15:44,354 --> 01:15:47,074
Apple and Google have not implemented, that this

2264
01:15:47,074 --> 01:15:48,689
nonprofit open source

2265
01:15:49,329 --> 01:15:50,869
operating system has implemented.

2266
01:15:51,250 --> 01:15:52,770
And for that reason, a lot of the

2267
01:15:52,770 --> 01:15:55,090
authorities are pissed off because they can't break

2268
01:15:55,090 --> 01:15:55,909
into it.

2269
01:15:56,369 --> 01:15:58,770
More recently, we had, two people. There was

2270
01:15:58,770 --> 01:16:00,130
a there was a man, and there was

2271
01:16:00,130 --> 01:16:00,949
also Palestinian

2272
01:16:01,250 --> 01:16:01,750
activist,

2273
01:16:02,244 --> 01:16:04,905
get detained when they arrived into a country.

2274
01:16:05,284 --> 01:16:07,525
And now it's becoming commonplace for them to

2275
01:16:07,525 --> 01:16:09,364
take your phone. Well, would you want a

2276
01:16:09,364 --> 01:16:11,204
phone that they can break into, which any

2277
01:16:11,204 --> 01:16:12,645
normal phone could, or would you want a

2278
01:16:12,645 --> 01:16:14,820
phone that could resist against that? So I

2279
01:16:14,820 --> 01:16:16,359
encourage you to look into GrapheneOS.

2280
01:16:16,659 --> 01:16:18,820
And if you're technically inclined, you can de

2281
01:16:18,820 --> 01:16:19,800
Google it yourself.

2282
01:16:20,260 --> 01:16:21,939
If you wanted to purchase it out of

2283
01:16:21,939 --> 01:16:25,479
the box, that's what we do at abovephoneabovephone.com,

2284
01:16:25,619 --> 01:16:27,539
along with a bunch of other services that

2285
01:16:27,539 --> 01:16:29,265
I that I talked about. But I think

2286
01:16:29,265 --> 01:16:32,485
it's about having the education and tools necessary

2287
01:16:33,104 --> 01:16:35,664
to work outside of this technical grid if

2288
01:16:35,664 --> 01:16:36,485
you need to.

2289
01:16:37,345 --> 01:16:39,585
God forbid that this that this happens and

2290
01:16:39,585 --> 01:16:41,025
it is rolled out and that we do

2291
01:16:41,025 --> 01:16:43,739
have, many people who do not comply so

2292
01:16:43,900 --> 01:16:45,260
we can get our needs taken care of.

2293
01:16:45,260 --> 01:16:48,480
Hakim, sorry. Before before we go, you recently

2294
01:16:48,699 --> 01:16:51,440
talked about a really awesome interesting idea,

2295
01:16:51,820 --> 01:16:52,960
public pay phones

2296
01:16:53,340 --> 01:16:54,480
that are being provided

2297
01:16:54,860 --> 01:16:55,360
VOIP,

2298
01:16:55,739 --> 01:16:57,659
right, by people in various locations around The

2299
01:16:57,659 --> 01:16:58,965
States. Can you tell us about that?

2300
01:16:59,764 --> 01:17:01,944
Yes. So there was this, electrical

2301
01:17:02,324 --> 01:17:03,784
engineer in Vermont.

2302
01:17:04,564 --> 01:17:06,724
And, what he did, he was, when he

2303
01:17:06,724 --> 01:17:08,965
was growing up, there was a old payphone

2304
01:17:08,965 --> 01:17:09,784
in his garage.

2305
01:17:10,085 --> 01:17:12,085
And and payphones, they used to work off

2306
01:17:12,085 --> 01:17:14,585
the same old telephone lines as as landlines.

2307
01:17:15,180 --> 01:17:17,840
But nowadays, there's nothing to connect them to.

2308
01:17:18,140 --> 01:17:19,180
So, he,

2309
01:17:19,899 --> 01:17:21,439
there are a few different companies,

2310
01:17:22,300 --> 01:17:24,619
and he he noticed these, and he was

2311
01:17:24,619 --> 01:17:26,319
inspired to build his own payphone.

2312
01:17:27,340 --> 01:17:30,574
His his company is called Randtell, I think,

2313
01:17:30,574 --> 01:17:32,734
based off of his name. Then there's also

2314
01:17:32,734 --> 01:17:35,774
another one based in Philadelphia called Filtell, and

2315
01:17:35,774 --> 01:17:37,875
there's one in Portland called Futel.

2316
01:17:38,895 --> 01:17:41,135
And they've kind of got the, they've kind

2317
01:17:41,135 --> 01:17:42,895
of got this grungy vibe. But what I

2318
01:17:42,895 --> 01:17:45,295
really like about them is they build these

2319
01:17:45,295 --> 01:17:47,689
payphones, which have the analog

2320
01:17:48,789 --> 01:17:50,470
numbers that you can dial in, but there's

2321
01:17:50,470 --> 01:17:51,210
an adapter

2322
01:17:51,670 --> 01:17:53,590
which connects to a Wi Fi network and

2323
01:17:53,590 --> 01:17:55,050
send those sends those signals

2324
01:17:55,430 --> 01:17:57,270
over the Internet. So you can actually have

2325
01:17:57,270 --> 01:17:58,789
voice over Internet, and you can make the

2326
01:17:58,789 --> 01:18:00,649
call. But what's really cool

2327
01:18:01,155 --> 01:18:03,555
is that it's free. They're just giving it

2328
01:18:03,555 --> 01:18:05,574
as a community service. Here you go, neighborhood.

2329
01:18:05,875 --> 01:18:06,375
And,

2330
01:18:07,555 --> 01:18:08,534
Futel, specifically,

2331
01:18:08,914 --> 01:18:11,715
it's part of their mission because they're trying

2332
01:18:11,715 --> 01:18:13,335
to they're helping the unhoused,

2333
01:18:13,875 --> 01:18:15,734
because that's one of the things that happens,

2334
01:18:16,050 --> 01:18:17,489
is you don't have a you don't have

2335
01:18:17,489 --> 01:18:19,010
a permanent address. You don't have a phone

2336
01:18:19,010 --> 01:18:21,010
number that people can call you. And now

2337
01:18:21,010 --> 01:18:23,250
there's this free phone, as I like to

2338
01:18:23,250 --> 01:18:25,890
call them, which can become, like, the center

2339
01:18:25,890 --> 01:18:26,550
of a community,

2340
01:18:27,090 --> 01:18:28,530
in a way for people to stay in

2341
01:18:28,530 --> 01:18:31,484
touch. So, it's a really, really cool idea.

2342
01:18:31,484 --> 01:18:32,364
If you it's on,

2343
01:18:33,324 --> 01:18:33,824
episode,

2344
01:18:34,284 --> 01:18:36,844
I wanna say, 10 of of Take Backward

2345
01:18:36,844 --> 01:18:37,344
Tech.

2346
01:18:37,725 --> 01:18:39,645
So, check that out. Thanks for reminding me,

2347
01:18:39,645 --> 01:18:41,645
James. I'm I'm willing to bet you that

2348
01:18:41,645 --> 01:18:43,085
if not already, they'll find a way to

2349
01:18:43,085 --> 01:18:44,784
make that illegal or

2350
01:18:45,270 --> 01:18:46,949
something, you know, just as it always goes.

2351
01:18:46,949 --> 01:18:47,989
But it's a great I think that's a

2352
01:18:47,989 --> 01:18:49,989
fantastic idea. So the point is that more

2353
01:18:49,989 --> 01:18:51,429
individuals should do that and have them pop

2354
01:18:51,429 --> 01:18:52,630
up enough to where it's too hard to

2355
01:18:52,630 --> 01:18:54,309
stop. That's always the way to get around

2356
01:18:54,309 --> 01:18:55,670
that. You know? I love that. It's all

2357
01:18:55,750 --> 01:18:57,429
the whole Larkin Rose, like, their arms will

2358
01:18:57,429 --> 01:18:58,949
get tired. Right? Just keep doing it until

2359
01:18:58,949 --> 01:19:00,170
they just get overwhelmed.

2360
01:19:00,484 --> 01:19:01,604
You know, about the you know, his his

2361
01:19:01,604 --> 01:19:02,965
point is that, you know, if you're gonna

2362
01:19:02,965 --> 01:19:05,204
protest, they're gonna beat people, you know, and

2363
01:19:05,204 --> 01:19:07,465
ultimately, they're if there's enough of you protesting,

2364
01:19:07,524 --> 01:19:08,885
their arms will get tired, you know? Yeah.

2365
01:19:08,885 --> 01:19:10,164
There may be people get hit, you know?

2366
01:19:10,164 --> 01:19:11,844
But the reality is that there's too many

2367
01:19:11,844 --> 01:19:13,350
of you and it will persist. And I

2368
01:19:13,350 --> 01:19:16,630
saw Jairaj or whatever, right? Gandhi. That was

2369
01:19:16,630 --> 01:19:17,449
the whole concept.

2370
01:19:17,829 --> 01:19:18,489
Right. Right.

2371
01:19:18,949 --> 01:19:20,149
Well, I was going to just

2372
01:19:20,949 --> 01:19:23,350
VPNs being one of the obvious, you know,

2373
01:19:23,350 --> 01:19:25,350
potential things. And I think that's everyone pretty

2374
01:19:25,350 --> 01:19:26,869
much knows about that. I think there's ways

2375
01:19:26,869 --> 01:19:28,435
around it. But I'll just add to, you

2376
01:19:28,435 --> 01:19:30,034
know, the things that we always put out

2377
01:19:30,034 --> 01:19:32,215
there. You know, we already mentioned the

2378
01:19:32,515 --> 01:19:34,675
peer to peer with anything. You know, try

2379
01:19:34,675 --> 01:19:36,755
to find ways around the system, even with

2380
01:19:36,755 --> 01:19:38,354
your neighborhood, especially your neighbor. Do what they're

2381
01:19:38,354 --> 01:19:39,875
talking about with the phone. Start your own

2382
01:19:39,875 --> 01:19:41,560
little bodega in your house. You know, yeah.

2383
01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:43,560
They'll they'll get you make things illegal. The

2384
01:19:43,560 --> 01:19:45,900
point is find ways around an individual exchange.

2385
01:19:46,119 --> 01:19:47,800
Or I my point is always, and this

2386
01:19:47,800 --> 01:19:50,199
is my big thing for anything, is just

2387
01:19:50,199 --> 01:19:52,600
don't don't be a slave to whatever you

2388
01:19:52,600 --> 01:19:54,824
wanna call it, the obligation system. Don't your

2389
01:19:54,824 --> 01:19:56,344
phone beeps. Don't feel like you have to

2390
01:19:56,344 --> 01:19:57,784
engage with it. You know, put it in

2391
01:19:57,784 --> 01:19:59,304
the the pouch, you know,

2392
01:20:00,184 --> 01:20:01,744
check out of it. When somebody if my

2393
01:20:01,784 --> 01:20:02,824
if I'm in my house or not doing

2394
01:20:02,824 --> 01:20:04,664
it over obligation. Well, yeah. Well, I I

2395
01:20:04,664 --> 01:20:06,104
put it in the pouch. Actually, I just

2396
01:20:06,104 --> 01:20:06,505
got,

2397
01:20:07,144 --> 01:20:09,369
it's right here, actually. I just got one

2398
01:20:09,369 --> 01:20:11,369
of Is that, is that Solari's new pouch?

2399
01:20:11,369 --> 01:20:12,409
Yeah. She sent it to me. And so

2400
01:20:12,409 --> 01:20:13,689
I have one I've been using but this

2401
01:20:13,689 --> 01:20:15,609
one's especially I like this one a lot.

2402
01:20:15,609 --> 01:20:16,729
And so I you know, you put it

2403
01:20:16,729 --> 01:20:18,170
in there, you click it closed and I

2404
01:20:18,329 --> 01:20:20,569
every time which frustrates people because even middle

2405
01:20:20,569 --> 01:20:21,449
of the day I'll have it in there

2406
01:20:21,449 --> 01:20:22,409
and so I'm not get I'm not like

2407
01:20:22,409 --> 01:20:24,935
immediately engaging which is weird peep way people

2408
01:20:24,935 --> 01:20:26,215
respond to that today. But what I was

2409
01:20:26,215 --> 01:20:27,654
gonna say is that, like, my someone rings

2410
01:20:27,654 --> 01:20:28,314
my doorbell.

2411
01:20:28,694 --> 01:20:30,534
I don't like, unless I'm expecting somebody, I

2412
01:20:30,534 --> 01:20:31,895
don't feel like I'm obligated to get up

2413
01:20:31,895 --> 01:20:33,574
and look. People find that so crazy. I'm

2414
01:20:33,574 --> 01:20:34,694
like, I'll you know, it's not I'm not

2415
01:20:34,694 --> 01:20:35,895
interested. And I you know, I don't wanna

2416
01:20:35,895 --> 01:20:37,175
go find out who's trying to sell me

2417
01:20:37,175 --> 01:20:39,050
something. But it's that mindset when it comes

2418
01:20:39,050 --> 01:20:40,250
to any of these things. It's just don't

2419
01:20:40,250 --> 01:20:41,849
be a slave to the system. Don't feel

2420
01:20:41,849 --> 01:20:43,770
like you have to engage. You have to

2421
01:20:43,770 --> 01:20:45,929
check-in. I think that's just a mindset for

2422
01:20:45,929 --> 01:20:47,689
all of this. It'll help us pull away

2423
01:20:47,689 --> 01:20:49,369
from this. You know? And then, obviously, when

2424
01:20:49,369 --> 01:20:50,889
you want to, you can. That's the larger

2425
01:20:50,889 --> 01:20:52,475
point is that these these things can help

2426
01:20:52,475 --> 01:20:53,835
us connect and so on. And, you know,

2427
01:20:53,835 --> 01:20:55,274
I think this is a very important conversation.

2428
01:20:55,274 --> 01:20:56,814
We should probably make this like a routine,

2429
01:20:57,114 --> 01:20:58,795
you know, monthly kind of ongoing thing, to

2430
01:20:58,795 --> 01:21:00,795
be honest, like the new technology, what's continued

2431
01:21:00,795 --> 01:21:02,795
to happen. But we'll discuss that off air

2432
01:21:02,795 --> 01:21:04,715
more from the I'm in general. But, you

2433
01:21:04,715 --> 01:21:06,930
guys Kit, you wanna and, James, you wanna

2434
01:21:06,930 --> 01:21:08,210
give some last thoughts whoever you want before

2435
01:21:08,210 --> 01:21:09,030
we wrap up today?

2436
01:21:10,930 --> 01:21:12,010
Either one of you. What if you guys

2437
01:21:12,130 --> 01:21:14,050
any thoughts on solutions or things we didn't

2438
01:21:14,050 --> 01:21:15,510
mention, you know, as we wrap?

2439
01:21:21,694 --> 01:21:22,994
I can't think of anything.

2440
01:21:23,534 --> 01:21:25,375
In my defense, it is 01:34 in the

2441
01:21:25,375 --> 01:21:28,094
morning. Right? Oh my god. Okay. Yeah. Let's

2442
01:21:28,094 --> 01:21:30,094
wrap it up for you. Yeah. I think

2443
01:21:30,094 --> 01:21:32,014
I've said most of what I wanted to

2444
01:21:32,014 --> 01:21:34,250
say. And I'm sorry I wasn't more productive

2445
01:21:34,250 --> 01:21:36,329
in terms of actual digital solutions, but I

2446
01:21:36,329 --> 01:21:37,869
think there's so many societal

2447
01:21:38,329 --> 01:21:39,930
issues here that we have to sort through.

2448
01:21:41,050 --> 01:21:42,569
I will plug for you just to be

2449
01:21:42,569 --> 01:21:44,569
polite, your solutions watch series has got a

2450
01:21:44,569 --> 01:21:46,329
lot of good stuff in there. Yes. Like

2451
01:21:46,329 --> 01:21:48,975
RSS feeds, mailing lists, that kind of thing.

2452
01:21:49,935 --> 01:21:52,494
And email aliases, which I recently talked to,

2453
01:21:52,814 --> 01:21:55,135
Hakeem about. So thank you for that. And,

2454
01:21:55,375 --> 01:21:57,375
Hakeem, you will be, gratified to note that

2455
01:21:57,375 --> 01:21:59,695
I've received a lot of new subscriptions with

2456
01:21:59,695 --> 01:22:03,155
people with corporate report email aliases. So Nice.

2457
01:22:03,375 --> 01:22:05,780
Yeah. People are using it. Good. Doing it.

2458
01:22:05,780 --> 01:22:06,980
Now that that that just came up in

2459
01:22:06,980 --> 01:22:09,140
our conversation about the, the GiveWP thing. Right?

2460
01:22:09,140 --> 01:22:10,340
So it's funny how, you know, all these

2461
01:22:10,340 --> 01:22:12,340
different ways that overlaps. You know, it's important

2462
01:22:12,340 --> 01:22:13,780
these days. But I'll I'll include all things

2463
01:22:13,780 --> 01:22:16,260
we mentioned, Kim's website and the solution to

2464
01:22:16,260 --> 01:22:17,914
watch points. You know, I I think this

2465
01:22:17,914 --> 01:22:19,994
is, like I said, an important conversation. I'm

2466
01:22:19,994 --> 01:22:21,354
I'm glad to have with you guys because

2467
01:22:21,354 --> 01:22:22,954
I think this is gonna evolve and get

2468
01:22:22,954 --> 01:22:24,875
more important. And I think everyone in this

2469
01:22:24,875 --> 01:22:27,274
group is doing individual parts to make, you

2470
01:22:27,274 --> 01:22:29,914
know, find solutions. Now maybe, you know, I

2471
01:22:29,914 --> 01:22:32,439
I I know we didn't necessarily focus on,

2472
01:22:32,439 --> 01:22:34,380
like, only solutions, but I think the conversation

2473
01:22:34,439 --> 01:22:36,760
itself about these things and, you know, with

2474
01:22:36,760 --> 01:22:38,359
the solutions we did present, I do think

2475
01:22:38,359 --> 01:22:40,039
that's very helpful. And I think it's it's

2476
01:22:40,039 --> 01:22:42,279
sometimes important just kinda go at the problem

2477
01:22:42,279 --> 01:22:43,880
as well as present solutions. You know? So

2478
01:22:43,880 --> 01:22:45,734
I think it's a productive conversation. So thank

2479
01:22:45,814 --> 01:22:46,935
thank you all for being here. Any other

2480
01:22:46,935 --> 01:22:48,554
final thoughts before we wrap up?

2481
01:22:49,814 --> 01:22:51,094
We'll leave it there then for today. And

2482
01:22:51,094 --> 01:22:52,215
thank you all for being here, and I

2483
01:22:52,215 --> 01:22:53,414
look forward to seeing you on the next

2484
01:22:53,414 --> 01:22:55,574
Independent Media Alliance panel. And, I'll leave it

2485
01:22:55,574 --> 01:22:57,435
there. Thank you, guys. See you next time.

2486
01:22:57,654 --> 01:22:58,154
Blessings.