Welcome to The Last American Bagabond. Joining me
today is founder and editor of UnCaptured Media,
Dan Cullen,
and Kim Ives, the English language editor of
Haiti Liberte, to discuss the history around Haiti,
US intervention, Western intervention, and the overlapping discussion
of what we've been seeing around this odd
story of Haitian immigrants eating animals,
something that actually overlaps with the story that
Dan covered before this around Jimmy Barbecue
and the kind of rising resistance in the
country being framed as cannibals, and really kinda
breaking this weird story down and highlighting on
what the the background is and maybe why
this story is there. So thank you, Dan
and Kim, for joining
background is and maybe why this story is
there. So thank you, Dan and Kim, for
joining today. How are you both? Great. Doing
good. Thanks, thanks for having us. Thanks, Dan.
My my pleasure. I I think this is
an important story that, obviously, you've both been
touching on long before this kind of weird
anomaly of of
eating animals and cannibalism and, you know, accusations
of all sorts of different things. So I
think it's important to kind of start
where I mean, obviously, there's a long history
as you've mentioned in the past going back
to 1804 and before, but the starting in,
you know, the the relevance of US or
just Western intervention.
So let's start there in general and really
I'll I'll kind of throw my questions at
whoever wants to to jump in. And so
I'd like to start with whoever would like
to start on the kind of the history
of Western intervention in Haiti
and and what point you feel is relevant
to,
you know, the current US mindset and really
the stories we're talking about today?
Dan, you want to Well, I'll just I'll
just say really really quickly maybe before we
dive into the into the
history. I mean, it's a you know, we're
like creeping. We have this ongoing intervention, military
intervention, really an invasion because it's not invited
by any
legitimate
government in Haiti. And and it's
not really going as the empire would like.
And I've been saying, like, for months, I've
been saying to Kim correct me if I'm
wrong, Kim. I don't know if you remember
this, but Mhmm. It seems like something that's
much more suited for a Trump administration
because,
it's harder for Democrats
and Liberals to be, like, openly racist.
You know, you have, like, the whole strategy,
of the,
they're, like, PR strategy is basically to to
elevate,
black people into,
to be the faces of the empire. Karine
Jean Pierre being the perfect example. White House
press secretary who is of Haitian
origin herself. And so, you know, you need
with a country like Haiti,
there's
there the way you have to incite against
it, in order to to prepare the public
for
further
intervention invasion
is much more suited for a Trump,
Trump administration. And that's, like, I think what
we're seeing going back to the cannibal,
slur back in, what was that, march,
where they were saying, you know, Haiti is
a country of cannibals led by this guy,
Jimmy Barbecue Charisseier, who's called a can who's
called barbecue because he's a cannibal, and he's
a leader of a cannibal gang, and now
this this current thing about Haitians eating cats.
So but, yes, there's a a long long
history,
of, you know, how kind of Haiti
occupies
the,
you know, American
imagination
and and,
and how it's been kind of portrayed,
in American not only American, but, you know,
I'm sure French media too,
about a nation of savages,
you know, to basically,
cover up
the the reality that it's actually a a
nation of of former slaves who accomplished one
of the greatest feats in in human history,
which is to have a a revolution against
the slavers,
and then go on to defeat
3 empires.
So Right. I mean, in a in a
in a nutshell, that's what I what you
know, my sense of it, but go ahead,
Kim. Right. And really, Haiti has been dealing
with foreign intervention since its birth,
220 years ago.
It
it actually won its revolution because
the
British, French, and Spanish were fighting over it.
It's a very strategic piece of land in
the middle of the Caribbean,
right on the windward passage. And they all
wanted it. They all wanted its fertile
ground, which was made it the richest
colony in the Western Hemisphere. It was much
richer than the 13 colonies
of North America and,
was really what made France.
And after the 18 0 4 revolution when
the slaves, first and last successful slave revolution
in
history,
throughout the French,
it was basically besieged by all
sorts of
European
and American
expeditions, nipping at its heels as you if
you will.
In 18/25,
the French sent the whole
fleet down to basically force them to sign
what's called the independence debt. They had to
pay a 150,000,000
gold
francs,
which at that time
was an astronomical
sum.
And, that was part of the impoverishment of
the country.
But,
you know, this
picture you have to realize the momentous nature
of the Haitian Revolution. In a way,
I argue, that it was even more
momentous than the American or French or Russian
or Chinese revolution. It's one of the great
neglected
revolutions because
it
it it changed everything here. And often I
say that Haiti is the polar
opposite of the United States. The United States
is the richest
nation in the world, currently,
which was founded by slave holders.
It was basically founded to preserve slavery because
England was starting to move away from it,
but they said, no. No. We wanna keep
these slaves. It helps us grow our cotton.
And the Haitians
founded
the first,
the second nation in the hemisphere, which was
founded by self freed slaves, and they basically
were the first ones to end slavery. Their
revolution,
trumpeted the
beginning of the end of chattel slavery.
So they were just a monster
ever since then for the US ruling class.
They
every boat that came from Haiti
to any port in the US
was was basically quarantined.
So the word of the Haitian revolution wouldn't
get out and spread among the slave masses
that were Interesting.
Yeah. So Haiti has always been a kind
of pariah, and this goes all through the
19th century. There were Germans,
French, and English. There many, many episodes of
sort of gunboat diplomacy and little skirmishes,
but it didn't really
sort of it wasn't really captured by US
imperialism until 1915
when and this was in the
period when the US was doing this around
the world.
US marines landed.
They took over the country. Basically, it became
the government for 19 years, from 19 15
to 1934,
and then they put in place,
the army of Haiti, what was called the
god masonal d'etit, the guard of Haiti, which
basically were their surrogate army.
And that continued
really up until,
we can say,
1990
one when Jean Bertrand Aristide, a liberation
theologian,
anti imperialist priest, came to power. And, boy,
once again, this was just as bad as
the Asian revolution the first time. You know,
the the US went, you know, berserk. And
in fact, for right rightly so, because this
was really the beginning of the pink tide.
For the first time, the Haitian showed that
you could win a US engineered election.
And they did it, and that's when Hugo
Chavez and Venezuela
and Evo Morales in Bolivia
and Lula in Brazil, etcetera, said, hey. Maybe
we could do the same thing, and that
started the whole,
we could say, pink tide across Latin America.
So,
ever since then, the US in that 1991
period, the US has been invading Haiti,
and then passing it off to a proxy
force.
In the case of the 94 intervention,
they pass it off to the UN after
3 months. In the case of the 2004
intervention, they pass it off to the UN
after 3 months. But this time,
in,
2024,
they're giving it directly to the proxy. It's
the Kenyans going in,
and it's not working out too well. And
they're going back their their mandate for this
MSS as it's called, the multinational
security support mission. Mhmm. It says go
it expires on October
second.
And so now they're running back to the
security council hoping they can get a UN
peacekeeping mission because,
basically, they have no compulsory way to make
anybody come and take part of it. They
were expecting 25
100 troops in Haiti. Right now, they have
380.
And even those troops aren't going out of
their barracks. So, you know, they can't pay
them. They're out of money. They don't even
have ammo ammunition
because it's all going to Ukraine and to
Gaza. And so it's, turning into a real
mess.
And,
so that's basically, in a nutshell, the history
of foreign intervention in Haiti.
It's just it's so it's so infuriating to
see these people scream about democracy and and
rights and rules based order while this has
just been such an obvious track record. And
I'm sure you both agree with that. Just
felt like saying that. But, you know, what
I I wanted to before we go any
further in, you know, the the other stories
we talk about, I wanted to go back
and and thank you for in very detail.
And I hope people will take the time
to look at your work and the background
and how obvious it is this has been
going on. But, Dan, what you said there
about the Trump administration
being more conducive for this,
When you say that, do you is it
your if am I sensing that you feel
that in some way that's more of a
coordinated concept? Or can you flesh that out
for me and why you think that's the
idea?
Well, definitely, there is, of course, the Uniparty.
You know, permanent Washington, what, you know, maybe
you call the deep state. The permanent war
machine,
that regardless of who occupies the White House,
there is, an agenda at play. And,
you know, we talk about what's called the
Global Fragility Act that is a piece of
legislation
that is very much one of the cornerstones
of,
US foreign policy right now around the world,
or at least it's that's the idea,
of, you know, the state department, Pentagon planners.
And,
this the the Global Fragility Act, I the
other day, I called it the,
what did I call it? Like, the impute
the Empire's fragility, the you know, the crumbling
Empire Act
Mhmm. Is basically that in the age of,
you know, resurgent Russia and China and global
competition
from the big the big baddies, the US,
and and the the bifurcation of the global
economy with this cold war with China.
The US wants to
reassert
its dominance
in, neo colonies and small countries.
And and, actually, the the the state department's,
memos and public,
writing on the Global Fragility Act says that
this is actually the plan for the whole
world. This isn't just for, you know, a
few countries here or there. But but, basically,
the idea is to sort of,
you know, bring state department and Pentagon and
USAID altogether to streamline them. And so, you
know, instead of different hands operating independently and
they don't know what they're doing, it's more
effective,
with an emphasis on the military aspect.
And Haiti is the test case for this.
So this was Haiti is the first case
they wanna apply this to, and, then they
wanna apply it to Libya. You know, another
place the US has left a trail of
destruction.
And then several countries in West Africa, in
French speaking West Africa, which, you know, if
you consider what's happened over the past 2
years, the series of revolutions,
in some of those countries, well, you could
see that they were correctly concerned,
that there was lack of stability,
under the regimes that the US and France,
had installed and backed.
And so and the, another country I I
believe they're looking at was they were they
have Papua, New Guinea and
and Mozambique. That's right.
So, basically,
this strategy was was passed by Congress in
2019
when Trump was still president. Mhmm. And then
it was continued when Biden came into the
presidency.
And so, you know, this is the stuff
that probably Trump has never heard of the
Global Fragility Act. Biden doesn't know what this
is. It's just built in to the system.
Right. And so when, you know, this planning
for, like, you know, what we show, for
example, in our documentary,
Another Vision Inside Haiti's Uprising, is that,
you know,
this process plays out,
across
the
the,
you know, in a bipartisan way. And so,
this process of leading towards, you know, building
towards a US intervention or a US orchestrated
intervention
into Haiti.
And, of course, a lot of it has
to do with, you know, the the
geopolitical,
and domestic
factors that
can prevent them from deploying forces or proxy
forces into Haiti,
you know, namely China and Russia and their
opposition at the Security Council, etcetera, etcetera,
and,
domestically, being able to sell
basically a war to the American public. And
so what I I the point that I
was making is, you know, how much of
it is intentional and planned out? I don't
really know, but I think there's sort of
an organic process that's not necessarily,
like, conspiratorial.
It's just like when you have,
you know,
Karine Jean Pierre and,
Linda Thomas Greenfield at the UN. And because,
basically, the US has this obvious strategy
to put,
black people as its spokesperson
spokes
people,
then
it's going to it's not as it's not
so easy for them to use this obviously
racist
incitement and play into these tropes.
You know, they need to talk about stability
and, you know, helping Haitians and, you know,
we wanna bring,
prosperity and these kinds of things, and that's
the the cover that they use. Whereas a
Trump administration you know, I mean, we all
know how Trump is. He's, you know, he
plays, of course, to the right wing,
which is less concerned with,
appearing racist or,
and, you know, I mean, we've seen with
JD Vance and Trump and,
you know, the Elon Musk and these the
countless social media influencers,
that have become prominent. They're more than happy
to deploy
these tropes about,
Haitians eating cats and dogs and, you know,
it's this is actually just part of
the whole election. They they think this is
gonna, help Trump win the election, which to
me seems like pretty
weak strategy that maybe if you're if you're
a very online person,
I guess, but, in terms of overall
appealing to,
you know, the kind of undecided voter that's
not sure if Kamala
or Trump is actually better and, you know,
as terrible as Kamala is,
Trump didn't look particularly strong at that last
debate. So I don't think that's gonna grow
his base. It's just red meat for, for
his base is what I think. And so
the immigration issue that is kind of underlying
this is very real, and there are real
questions about that. But,
the strategy that the that the Trump
team and, you know, Elon Musk and,
has taken,
I think is is misguided,
but is in terms of winning an election,
but it is,
very useful for for ginning up
antipathy towards Haiti and Haitians,
to
get support for,
some kind of expanded US military
presence or proxy force into Haiti.
Right. And that goes to your uni party
point that this is, you know, really how
we have to view this. It goes back
and forth, teeter totter or, you know, whatever,
kind of like, you know, distilling it down
into one ultimate point. And so we will
come back to the animals and and in
general and and the overlapping points within that.
But I wanna ask you about the the
Global Fragility Act. So what you're essentially saying
is that this would be,
the the typical US foreign policy act. We're
under the guise of saying we're trying to
help people who are in a destabilized position
in again,
pointing out that they're the ones that put
them or drove them to that position, but
ultimately wouldn't do that at all. I mean,
this is sort of like another form of
occupation. Is that what you're saying? Like, using
this act to facilitate control over these countries
under the guise of helping them?
Yeah. Exactly. I mean,
yeah, the whole thing is just basically how
are we going to,
in this new era of
moving on from the war on terror. Now
we're into global competition with major powers,
who are who have an alternative paradigm,
whether that's,
Russia's, you know, military footprint
around the world,
which is obviously a challenge to the, you
know, US
so called rules based order or China's, belt
and road initiative, which, you know, is,
offers a mutually
beneficial,
paradigm,
which is completely the opposite of the US'
like zero sum game.
You know, that we're gonna basically control your
country and own it. And if you don't
like that, we'll just burn it down.
So in that
facing that
paradigm where more and more countries or or
political and social movements are thinking, hey. Maybe
there's an alternative to, you know, good old
imperialism.
The US is is, I think, becoming desperate
in a way where it, you know, is
is gonna look for ways to to impose,
its its control. I mean, the fact that
it calls the globe fragile, you know, global
fragility, to me, you know, fragility just says
weakness. It's projecting weakness.
So,
yeah. I mean I think it's it's just
you know we're gonna we're gonna help you
which is you know
kind of a scary term these days. Especially
coming from the United States government with their
track record. Right? Exactly. Well, I think that's
important to highlight you know, with with with
what Kim was highlighting in in the build
up and the idea that this is just
you know, I'm seeing this a lot, by
the way. And if we if there's an
opening to get into this more, we can,
like, with that what I see with, like,
pro Honduras and this weird feel backed, Prospera,
fake, libertarian utopia, or, you know, any number
of things I keep seeing where there's, like,
this new form of governance almost poking its
head out in these different like you said,
this is sort of a trial in regard
to see how this will apply. So I
I wanna bring this back to, to one
of the points around this where I feel
like, at least in my opinion, I I
saw a shift in the way that this
was the the the foreign policy Kim was
highlighting was being conducted and I think that
might relate to this new direction. So, Kim,
if you could touch more on the point
in which, like, the the the earthquake forward
Clinton Foundation,
you know, the way that they abused, like,
the aid state of all this, which really
did set up a whole new kind of
form of manipulation, which was already being used.
But it exploded, I think, after that in
a large way using, you know, the as
James Corbett would call it the Trojan horse
of regime change, like USAID and or and
National Down For Democracy. So can you touch
on that time frame for me and your
thoughts on whether that was sort of a
a new direction or, you know, your thoughts
on that? Real real quick. Let me let
me interrupt you, Kim, before you start because
maybe you wanna add this in.
Maybe you wanna, you know, talk about what
you showed in your award winning film,
Bitter Cane, how, you know, basically, the US
what what that was about, what that era
was about. Because, I mean, this obviously didn't
start with 2010 and the earthquake. I mean,
this this goes back to the shaping and
the, basically,
creation of the of the Haitian economy and
the and the picture of of neoliberal,
economics. But sorry to interrupt.
Yeah. Well, just to kind of go back
to the Trump and
versus
Harris
situation we're facing now.
To me, there are 2 different sectors.
The Democrats are essentially the globalist
sector. They're looking at the planet. They're picking
planetary
strategies.
Whereas Trump is more of a nationalist, you
know, he's just and so I don't think
he would have gone in for an MSS.
You know, it's this is too much, you
know, he's like direct. He would have said,
send in the 82nd airborne, you know, nuke
the place. You know, whatever you have to
do. So that would have been his approach.
But
the globalists are trying to you know, they're
looking at all the chess pieces on the
board. So they're trying to get Haiti and
Kenya and Mozambique,
Benin,
you know, Guyana, all these different they're they're
nudging them, moving them around. That's what Blinken's
running around like a fireman
trying to put out fires and move people
here and there, not very successfully.
And they've been hoisted by their own petard
because,
you know, the crisis is going faster than
they can
get firemen out there. So,
it's like in the case of Haiti,
they wanna send Kenyans to stabilize Haiti,
and Kenya starts to destabilize.
And, you know, the the same
problems that are happening in Haiti,
are beginning to erupt in Kenya.
So the the the the empire is sort
of at a loss how to go forward.
And Trump's approach,
is to me to go very straight at
it,
in terms of
almost like, I don't know, Teddy Roosevelt. Send
in the marines, you know, do whatever we
have to do. He's not worried about
the hypocritical,
problem that the democrats are trying to avoid.
And the reason they're using Kenyans and sending
Kenyans in there
is because they don't want it to look
like 1915.
In 1915, the US Marines landed,
about 6 months before they landed. They went
in and they took all Haiti's gold, $500,000
worth of gold bars out of the bank,
and they took them to First National City
Bank in New York, where they still are,
as a matter of fact. And,
the
marines came in,
in on July 28, 1915,
and they just took over the place. And
they said, okay. Well, we gotta get a
president to invite us. And so then they
put in a guy,
Tiganov, and he invited them.
They don't wanna do that again. It's too
ugly. They don't wanna send in US Marines
and then have
the president who's put in place invite in
the Global Fragility Act. They're trying the democrats
again, the globalists are trying to have
proxies do it. They're gonna put in the
government.
That government will then invite the US, and
the US oh, well, okay. Sure. We'll do
it. We'll sign the bilateral deal. So so
this is the whole dynamic. In a way,
Clinton, just going to your question about Clinton
and the earthquake,
was kind of almost a test run, address
rehearsal Right. Because here was the earthquake,
which was perfect timing for the empire.
Some people say they they made the earthquake
happen. I would buy that. But, you know,
the,
the the timing was perfect because, basically, there've
been 20 years of Aristide and his
sort of clone, a guy called Rene Preval,
who'd been running Haiti since 91
to 2011.
It was basically
an alternance
of Preval and Aristide, Aristide Preval.
And, of course, with the coup periods
interspersed
because there were 2 coups during that period.
So now they said, oh, this is perfect.
So in came
Bill
Clinton.
He took over the country. He was basically
ruled the country for 18 months. And they
installed Michel Martelly,
you know. And they thought, okay, you know,
this is working out great. We're gonna get
our people in and, you know, we'll set
up the things the way we want it.
But it kind of, once again, went off
the rails because this this
very complex
machinery that the globalists are using,
can can you know, the more complex it
is, the more possibility for problems.
So in came Jovnel Moise.
He
was sort of bollocks up, I could say,
by
Donald Trump because what Trump did was he
strengthened the sanctions against
Venezuela.
The money that was basically keeping Haiti afloat
was a thing called the Petrocaribe
Fund, where, basically, Hugo Chavez said, we don't
want you to have to go to the
IMF. We'll give you money, and then you
invest it. So Hugo Chavez,
started Petrocaribe.
It's
2006 was the start, but it really
engaged in 2008 until 2018,
and that was because Trump basically shut down,
through the through the banks, the ability to
transfer money between Haiti and Venezuela. So the
whole thing,
came to a crashing halt, and now Jovnel
Moiz was in was in trouble,
and he he had to
find a way out of it. Trump,
wasn't really helping him.
And,
in the end, he ended up veering back
towards Venezuela and Russia,
and that's when they sent him a team.
As far as we're concerned, all the circumstances
seem to point to that that, you know,
the US gave a wink and a nod
at the very least, if not some,
logistical
support to this operation to assassinate him. So,
basically,
the globalists
are trying to build this complex tapestry, the
Global Fragility Act. I mean, Trump signed off
on it, but it wasn't his architects who
who who did it. It was it was,
the the globalists
behind the scene who run the deep state.
That's the Uniparty for you right there.
Exactly.
Well, I'm sorry. I mean, if if you're
done I didn't mean to cut you off
there. Yeah. No. That's about it. No. I
mean, I'm not sure where we can go
in a lot of directions here and look
at the the complexity. But the essence is
there's a struggle in the ruling class. How
are we gonna
preserve the US, you know, which is in
a free fall right now as we all
can see, as the world can see.
And,
you know, are we gonna end up going,
the Trump route or we end up gonna
go the
blink and Sullivan Nuland route?
You know, I would argue I mean, and
I definitely see the difference, but I I
what I argue
is that I see that being the way
that the 2 party illusion is, I would
call it, always sort of works, which is
they they're very different in their directions, but
they're designed to kind of just drive you
down to one specific point that they, as
the government, ultimately wants you in, which is
simply my opinion. But you're right to point
out the very very clear differences, but, yeah,
I always see how those two different things
drive us in one clear direction. Like, I
always see it as the sim this one
linear line
between the administrations where we just kinda continue
to see these same things happening. You know?
I I wanted to ask about specifically well,
actually, since you brought it up, one quick
point about the oil.
Go ahead and say that the name what
was it again? The name PetroCaribe.
PetroCaribe.
I've made points about this many times over
the years, and I think it's important if
you could flesh that out just briefly how
important that was and what it how it
shows
that the idea being that it's somehow, you
know, of the
what they call Iran or anybody else, leader
in state sponsored terrorism or narco traffickers. Well,
these claims they throw on it when they
ignore all their chief allies doing far more
of it, but that this was something that
was being done that was very explicitly helping
the other countries that were also being suppressed
and attacked by western foreign policy. And by
taking that away is one of the clear
reasons as well as stealing all of their
gold and it's clear that could help these
people as well, but it put them in
that position, which is a point we already
made. It's the creation of the destabilize
destabilization
then used to justify why the fragility act
is even needed. So could you flush that
point out briefly for me on the oil
the oil,
oil rebate?
If I can just start, Dan. Yeah. The
the essence is from,
since I was a kid when, you know,
all during from the sixties, from 1959
until
2000,
the big bugaboo in Latin America was Cuba.
They were the target of everything.
But when Hugo Chavez took over and basically
hitched his wagon to Cuba,
and Cuba in some way became,
I could say, their their eminence, Greece,
the US saw Venezuela
as the real danger because of that petro
gravitas that they have.
And,
Hugo Chavez
very sagely,
put it to good use by, you know,
delivering to all his neighbors,
this this deal. Haiti got the sweetest and
he always said it was because Haiti basically
helped liberate Venezuela. It was Haiti that gave
Bolivar the the guns, the boats, the printing
presses, the soldiers to go liberate
the, continent. And you can see that in
all the flags of
Northern South America. They have the Haitian flag
in them.
So
he, gave them the sweet deal of not
only the cheap gas, but
loan account where they were able to keep
40% of the sales of the gas and
invest it. So they didn't have to go
to the IMF and World Bank and Inter
American Development Bank, etcetera.
So
all of that to say that, the US
really was focusing on Venezuela as the principal
problem they face. And
that's to this day.
We can
see they're fighting tooth and nail, even though
it's failed. It appears now
to, you know, demonize,
Maduro and get him out because this south
south solidarity
is is,
you know, the the the closest
example of the new multipolar world threatening the
empire. Right. I mean, god forbid, they should
be helping each other or allowing people to
not rely on these, you know, whatever you
wanna call the western control structure. You know,
it's just so frustrating. But so that's why
empire. Yeah. Right. Yes. Right. That's that's why
that's so important to highlight because this is
the creation of
you know, there these are destabilizing
tactics and has no interest in the peoples
of these countries whatsoever,
which, you know, the history shows. But the
claims of everything, it really shows you that
this is about, you know, at the expense
of the people they claim they're trying to
help and for their own explicit interest. So
let's bring this into the point about the
immigration aspect, which clearly this opens the conversation
for, you know I mean, this is a
huge I mean, it's always been a very
clear wedge issue in this country, in the
United States, but it's obviously kind of spun
out of control more than ever. And we
did we did see the whole Venezuelan caravan
conversation, which just seemed to vanish after the
election, which I wonder if we're gonna see
a similar thing this time. But I wanna
talk about the idea of what I kind
of call the the US foreign policy to
immigration pipeline. And, you you know, in previous
interviews, Dan, you've mentioned the idea of not
just Haiti, but Venezuela.
And I I I I point to Honduras
2009 coup in the same concept. The idea
is creating
these immigration,
you know, the this influx of immigration because
of their foreign policy and then either pointing
to that as a reason the country is
is is in chaos or using that immigration,
that influx in United States or others in
Europe as a as a political tool. Right?
So if you could touch on that and
just the general idea of weaponized migration and
whether or not you think that is a
part of what this is. And I don't
mean just the clear example you've already made
about the destabilization
happening and, quote, over the byproduct, but whether
it's being used for that purpose, like, by
design.
Yeah. I mean, I think
immigration
is
basically
it's it's it is certainly intentional to destabilize
countries, have their,
populations,
you know, or significant portion of the populations
leave the country, come to the United States
in order to, perhaps, I think for the
vast majority of people, basically, to just, find
some kind of stability,
some kind of income,
and that's that's that's not a new thing.
I mean, people have been, you know, people
have been immigrating to the United States for
a long time.
Often, you know, we there there
I would maybe most examples,
are are even seasonal
or people who, you know, wanna work in
the United States for a year or 2
or 5 and then and send money home,
because even working, you know, menial jobs here,
they can send money back to their families
and whichever country in Latin America or wherever
it may be, or save up money. But
there's another,
kind of level of it, I guess, where
the United States will intentionally destabilize countries in
order to basically have,
a
a labor pool to increase the labor pool
and suppress wages
domestically,
so then there's more competition,
among the workers.
They can get people,
you know, who are willing to work for
less money and with,
less benefits and in worse conditions,
so they can basically just increase their profits.
And then there tends you know, what happens
of is, inevitably, there tends to be resentment
from the domestic population
here,
against those,
you know, those migrant workers
where
and, unfortunately,
you know, that that,
that anger and that frustration should be directed
at the policymakers who've destabilized their countries, but,
you know, it's hard to expect your,
you know, average Joe to
to understand the broader dynamics at play when
he just sees, you know, a bunch of
people,
who are not from there showing up in
his town and, you know, the conditions are
getting worse, things are getting more expensive, there's
inflation and war, and all of a sudden
these new people are here. So what's going
on? It must be that guy's fault. But,
you know, there's a
in the past few years, definitely, we've seen
a
geo geopolitical
strategy
play out where,
the US encourages immigration from countries like Haiti,
Venezuela,
Nicaragua. If Kim, remind me the name of
the program.
Health or Hope. Is that what it was?
I I thought you mentioned one the other
day, but,
I mean, essentially where
my my wife is a reporter. She was
at, the US Mexico border
last
year. Maybe this was in 2022,
and
she's and and she's she's a Spanish speaker,
so she's talking to, you know, people coming
through, and she would see that,
border patrol would allow,
Venezuelans to come through and basically direct them
to, you know, different places. Think about the
CHVN.
Yeah. That that's a program yeah. Basically,
what the Biden administration again, this is these
complex
things that the they they set up a
program in, in January of 2023
called the CHVM,
which would allow
immigrants
30,000
per month to come This is let let
me say it. This is this is still
illegal immigration. You're talking about legal immigration. I'm
talking about illegal. This at least yeah. I'm
talking about illegal where the US where the
US where the US, clearly gave border patrol
agents, instructions to depending on the, nationality of
the migrant
to,
either allow them in or deny them or
send them for,
send them to, you know, just facilitate their
entry into the country, and that's it. Or,
in the case of Venezuelans,
and then,
in the and then, you know, with other
countries, say, like Mexicans or from El Salvador
or something like that, they would be, you
know, sent for processing and and and this
kind of thing. So That is basically yeah.
That is, again, the undermining. That's been going
on since the eighties before you were born
when the,
US has always been using,
the,
immigrants or the refugees from Cuba
and now Venezuela
to to to give them basically a base
here in the United States, mostly Miami.
And so that's what that is. Yeah. The
illegals. And back in the eighties, they called
it web foot, dry foot.
That is a lot of the Cubans would
get here and maybe say, oh, yeah. Or
Cuba. Oh, yeah. That's terrible dictatorship. You can
come in. The Haitians would arrive up, send
you right back. You know? So that's that's
the double standard going on since since the
last 50 years.
So what do you what do you so
this was a very interesting point that I
saw you, point out in a different interview,
Dan. And so the idea being that
what do you guys think what the the
the mindset is here? Why and and you
and you pointed out in the the other
interview, the idea that as we've all and
this again, the eating animals part will come
up in this. It will get to the
the end with the idea of, like, Aurora
in Colorado and the idea of this I
I argue an equally misrepresented story that there's
clearly a gang problem in Aurora in general.
It's been talked about for a long time.
Venezuelan gangs. But then all of a sudden,
we get these stories which at best, I've
seen I've not been able to prove or
verify that what they claim is true, in
many cases, the complete opposite or false completely,
but that they've taken over these apartment buildings.
And I see these narratives flood. So why
do you what's the logic in your mind
of why they would say, yes, Haitians, yes,
Venezuelans, come in these areas? And and and
we and we could point out clearly as
I think we the idea of bringing 20,000
people in the city
of 40,000 a little bit less is crazy
in any context. Like, as that's not even
to get into how these are being lied
about.
But do you think I guess, 2 part.
You know, what do you think their mindset
is, and do you think that's a deliberate
destabilization within the United States?
Yeah. Definitely.
I think it's it's,
to destabilize
domestically
and,
you know, in in in Haiti itself. In
Haiti, so,
you know, again, you can bring in a
a labor pool, people who are willing to
do, you know, cheap, menial labor that the
domestic population maybe doesn't wanna do anymore or
or whatever it is.
And then you can also say, look how
destabilized
that country is. We better send in our
our troops,
to go fix it. So,
it creates the pretext for, some kind of
intervention, whether political
or military. And then domestically, you know, it's
a it's a convenient enemy and scapegoat.
And I mean, part of it is, I
think, you know, when you destabilize a country
and bring in
the population
or some segment of the population,
the vast majority of the people are gonna
be, I think,
decent, hardworking, you know, just wanna survive.
But certainly, you will get elements that are
criminal in nature.
And
and and even may there may be even
people who were gainfully employed or or or
or were, in their home country, but when
they leave, they go to a country that
they're not from. They don't speak the language.
They don't have the same sort of,
social
network. They don't have their family around, and
they fall into criminal activity.
I mean, I've, you know, friends of mine
who have migrated from Colombia, for example, for,
you know, because of, threats to their lives.
I talk to them and they and they
describe that all the time, that, you know,
people they've known that, you know, they go
to whatever other country, go to the US,
they get into drugs, they get into drinking,
you know, they leave their wives, this, that.
And, you know, you're
there's
that's that's a common thing. So it's just
it's, you know, natural kind of immigration where
people, you know, move back and forth for
whatever reason, I think, is is one thing.
But when you're just, you know, basically burning
down countries,
whether intentional or not, you're gonna have an
impact domestically, and that can, of course, be
exploited
in a number of ways politically.
And I'd add really quickly that up to
what date you're saying again that this would
exist no matter what grouping of people. Like,
if you bring 20,000 people from literally anywhere,
whatever skin color, whatever location or religion, you're
gonna find people like they may have you
know, you're gonna find bad people in any
group of that size. But your I agree
with you that by and large, that's, you
know, the opposite is what we're seeing. And
I that's this so do you have any
comments on that, Kim, before I ask the
next question? No. You go right ahead. So
I just wanna ask what do again, I
guess the same question. So what do you
think the reason is for that? Is this
just a byproduct to take advantage of? It's
the same point. If you're gonna choose
to bring Venezuelans in and and, you know,
treat them differently in in in a rapid
influx versus other groups from other countries
and and do so in such a ridiculous
way from no matter where they're from, to
bring that many people into one location. So
what do you think the point is? What
are they trying to accomplish, you know, for
either of you. Yeah. I don't my my
personal feeling is that these are unintended
consequences. That is the Aurora
Venezuelan gang. I I don't think they wanted
that or precisely,
planned that, but it happened. It's an it's
blowback as you said. Mhmm. And, you know,
one thing to remember is, like, let's say,
case of Cuba,
where basically it was run by the mafia
before Fidel took over. So
just like they did with the Nazis
after World War 2,
they import
a lot of the criminal elements of the
Nazi high command of the Nazi scientists,
the same way they imported a lot of
the people who'd been working for the mafia,
a lot of criminals into the
US
to use them against,
Fidel.
And,
so you ended up getting these gangs, you
know,
Alpha 66
and Omega and etcetera,
who would be to some extent, almost out
of control, you know, and even doing things
that were provocative, you know, that maybe even
didn't have the green light from the CIA
or something. So I think that this is
happening on a larger level too.
With
the Venezuelans. I cannot imagine. I don't have
any evidence of that, but I cannot imagine
that they're trying to get as many Venezuelan
disc contents and and, you know,
Guzzanos as they're called in Cuba,
to be able to use Escalados in Venezuela.
Okay. Escalados?
Okay. Yeah. Right. Yeah. In Venezuela. Yeah. That
that that they they can use against the
Venezuelans.
So so this is the thing. You you
control you have basically these these thugs,
they're
useful, but
sometimes they get out of control. So, to
me, that's the dynamic going on here. But
overall, the vast majority of the immigrants,
I mean, are mostly
really, I could say, extraordinary
people because they pick up their lives in
their country where they'd much prefer to be
to come here to start a new one,
and and most of them are more upright
than any American citizens that I know.
And and, well, to be clear, the they
and that I think that's important for people
to hear. But what I'm I wasn't even
necessarily asking about, like, a bad element. Just
they they
an organic grouping of 20,000 people. Right? So
I find it interesting that it would be
so deliberate that they would, you know, as
Dan's highlighting, that this would be a pick
and choose selective based on the country. I
find that to be hard to ignore that
if they're making that choice, I think that
there must be some political reason there. And
then the idea being that why have so
many go into a account a country a
a city of such a small percent a
number of people. Like to me that seems
like a deliberate choice. Like for example, you
know, in the political paradigm that I I
call the 2 party illusion, people would argue
that this from a democrat perspective would be
up votes. I don't see that being very
logical today, but you know there's there's opinions
around that. So do we think there's anything
there? Like, I just don't get the logic
of dumping that many people in a small
city. Why wouldn't it be spread out? You
know? No. They're they're not dumping them. What
it is is,
economics. That is the Haitians arrive and they're
going to the places with the cheapest rents
and the most jobs. Okay. Indianapolis
has, like, 500,000
Haitians. Indianapolis,
Indiana. You don't hear about that, but Right.
You know, it's Springfield
is just another example of it. So the
Haitians have been flooding to the areas of
opportunity.
I mean, Haitians are in almost every city
in the US. I was in Boise, Idaho
about a decade ago, and I was in
my hotel room and I heard Haitian the
grail down the hallway. I went down and
said, what are you doing here? And it
turned out there's a there's a community of,
like, 300 Haitians living outside of Boise, Idaho.
You don't get more white bread than that.
And, you know, they come in and they
clean the hotels in Boise. So,
you have Haitians looking for jobs, for opportunity
anywhere, and so that's why they end up.
So I don't think, yeah, this is,
something conceived of,
in that respect. They're,
sometimes they'll resettle
communities.
I've heard, you know, that's how a lot
of the,
Eritreans and Ethiopians ended up maybe up in,
Minneapolis and stuff like that, but that that's
pretty rare. I think
the Haitians, they come in through Miami or
New York, and then they they go to
wherever the rents are. I mean, you can
get a house in Indianapolis,
3 bedrooms and a garage for a $1500.
You can't get that studio apartment here in
New York for that. So Right. That's what's
going on. I mean, you're you're kind of
I think what what you're
touching on, Ryan, is the geopolitical the bigger
geopolitical strategy. Like, I mean, basically, I think
it's to,
eliminate
sovereignty
in, you know, other countries. So, I mean,
look at the countries that are not demonized.
You know, Guatemala,
El Salvador. I mean, now there's, you know,
some kind of back and forth. But in
but
Mex I mean, Mex okay. Mexico is demonized
because now they have, you know I mean,
I don't know about the new president, but
AMLO is not exactly under the thumb of
the United States. So Right. But the, you
know, country, like, call you know, Colombia,
you know, Colombia, Mexico, El Salvador, huge amounts
of migrants have been from from there, and
that's been
advantageous,
basically,
for the, you know, ruling class in the
United States to have this massive labor pool.
And everywhere
you go throughout the United States, there is
a huge hue there are huge Latino
communities,
and their countries are, you know, have basically
been,
you know, destroyed in many ways and, you
know, not like there's no life in any
of those countries, but they've,
they're they have not had sovereignty.
Their economies have been completely
shaped and designed,
by US neoliberal
economics.
And so that's, you know, the same thing
that
the US wants to impose
on, you know, Nicaragua, for example, to get
its population to flee. It's just like destroy
all of them, have their people come here.
It's a it's and then,
you know, send your,
you know, shape the economy so they're completely
dependent,
on the United States.
You know, have World Bank and IMF policies,
have them in huge amounts of debt,
basically to reimpose, like, a a a new
form of of slavery, I think, is is
really what this is about. So the countries
that resist that,
are gonna be demonized, and the US is
gonna do everything possible to destabilize
them and, you know, get their get portions
of their population to to leave the country.
Right. Yeah. Dan, if I can, just jump
in there and, because I have to jump
out. But,
yeah, this goes back to where we when
I did better Kane back in 1983,
we were looking at this. This was the
beginning
bifurcation
of the US economy
to where we just did services here
and all our production was sent overseas.
So we sent it to Latin America. Haiti
was one of the first cases where they
started to go get the cheap labor. That's
what Peter Kane looks into very deeply.
But
once they saw it work there, they started
to send it to Costa Rica,
Nicaragua before the revolution,
Honduras,
you know, throughout,
and then also Mexico and, of course, China.
Like, China was great for them at the
beginning. But now what's begun to happen
is that the the former vassal,
we could call them prison
colony cheap labor,
are starting to rebel. China,
Mexico too, to some extent,
Brazil.
So all the the the empire
is
shaking with trouble, and that's the Global Fragility
Act is okay. We're gonna make it easy
for them. We're gonna put our military base
there because that's what the Global Fragility Act
calls for, and then we're gonna put them
on a lifeline
of
US surplus food,
corn, rice, wheat, etcetera.
They don't have to worry about the food.
We're gonna feed you. You we got you
by the belly. We got you. And that's
that's the idea.
Yeah. I mean and this is such a
classic. I mean, not even to get into
the idea of the the terrible, you know,
GMOs, whatever else they're probably gonna send over
there. The idea of the classic US policy
or, you know, like like, confessions of an
economic hitman,
you know, the the the understanding there of
the the debt part of it. But, really,
that it comes down as you're highlighting that
you you create a situation where you act
like it's help, but, ultimately, you set it
up to where they're so overly reliant on
the US or other western interest for what
they need to survive, and they ultimately end
up producing what the US government demands of
them. And so that rug can be pulled.
At the moment, they're no longer advantageous. And
it's such an it's such an obvious ongoing
part of this history. And so that's why
all of this is so infuriating to watch
this get boiled down to the most absurd,
you know, cartoonish allegations about ant eating animals
and, you know, voodoo and all these things
that are you know, there's some elements of
that could be pointed to around the world,
but this this conversation has gotten so cartoonish.
And so, I guess, we let's get into
that to sort of kind of, you know,
fine tune this. And if you have to
jump out, let me know. Yeah. Yeah. That's
me. Yeah. I gotta I gotta run. But,
yeah. That's been a very, invigorating
discussion, and I'm sure Dan will,
hold the fort as it were in my,
absence. But, yes, thanks very much, Ryan, for
having us. Okay. And thank you very much
for joining us, and, let's connect again in
the future. Okay. So
Well, Dan, what since since we can go
into let me ask you one more question
actually before we jump into,
the
idea of the kind of and what your
thoughts on why that story is coming up
and what they're trying to hide. But, like,
in regard one of my point about the
weaponized immigration migration part, do you see or
just in general with Haiti, do you have
any insight or or thoughts on Israel's involvement?
You know, there there's a famous example or
a a a a very widely known example
of a,
a billionaire named, where is it,
Gilbert? Gilbert Biggio? Biggio. Yeah. And and the
influence there. And, you know, just your thoughts
on that. Because, look, there's a very open
conversation for those listening. My work has shown
this clearly of of I mean, there's, like,
think tanks writing, like,
I guess, you know, scientific, you know, outlines
about the use of this or weaponized migration,
Israel being one of them, even allegations right
now about how they're using the Gaza population.
So, in my opinion, it's an undeniable fact
that
empires have used weaponized migration throughout the world
going back a long way. Now it's debatable
debatable
in some people's minds about whether that's part
of what's happening here and so on, but
I wanted your thoughts on the idea of
Israel's involvement in that or just the destabilization
of Haiti, you know, wherever you'd like to
go with
that. Yeah. You know, that's I have not
looked deeply into into
Israeli involvement,
in Haiti, and that's something that I would
like to do.
I mean,
Gilbert Biggio, I think, is the single richest
man
in,
in Haiti,
a I think an ardent Zionist.
Mhmm. So,
and, you know, if you look at the
the history prior to the Aristide years,
you know, during the the Duvalier dictatorship,
I think there are some some ties to
to Israel then, whether, you know, weapons, training,
something like that. And certainly, you know, in
the region, Israel has an extremely
bloody history,
you know, whether in Colombia, which I've written
about extensively there,
you know, in in Cuba. I mean, Israel
is even involved in Cuba, all over the
place, in in genocides and and and other
things. So,
so, you know, that that's it's it's a
good question that I don't know a whole
lot about. When I will say when I
was,
in,
Haiti,
last time I was there was February of
this year. I,
I took a I we were we were
in,
you know, one of the kind of
we're in kind of one of the popular
neighborhoods, you know, when not not in the
wealthy areas, you know, one of the kind
of poor neighborhoods,
and, near I guess near the port,
and I saw,
a a big business that on its big
metal gate had a huge Israeli flag painted
on it. And I was trying to figure
out what it was. I was asking contacts
and just googling, and I could not figure
out anything.
And, you know, I didn't spend, like, huge
amounts of time looking into it, but, you
know, that's a great question. What is why
is this Israeli
flag painted on,
this this big business? So so I don't
know. It's it's it's a great question.
Yeah. I wish I knew.
Well, yeah, I think it's important people to
look into the history around the the I
I mean, generally, just from a global perspective,
the idea of weaponized migration and how that's
been used over over long periods of time
to influence. I mean, I I frankly think
that's part of what we're seeing in in
this country and outside as well. And I
just think it's important for people to see
these other strings, like, we're highlighting with the
United States government. I mean, I think right
now for a lot of people in the
world, the history of US for intervention,
destabilization,
regime change occupation is is a it's a
you know, despite the childish
denials from US government, it's like everybody's very
aware of that. And I think Israel's played
a major role in those over the years
as well, which is starting to come out
more and more. So, yeah, I I definitely
will include these show note these in the
notes for people to look further into. But
the interesting part of a Zionist sort of
being the one of the richest people in
the world, but influential in in Haiti in
particular for such a long period of time
is it's just fascinating to me. So let
let's let's end with that part I was
asking there in regard to why. Why do
you think with this,
you know, we saw this kind of spin
out of control
at the, where was that? The the the
debate
where Trump said, you know, they're eating the
animals. And, know, it it's it was it's
very flimsy from where it very start from
where it started. And my research into this
showed
that there is an interesting overlap around different
things you might have seen in in Brooklyn,
for example. There's a weird history of animal
sacrifice in different cemeteries and things that, like,
protected
aspects of different but it seems to be
very minute, and and it got turned into
this NASH really international story out of nowhere.
And so I wonder your thoughts on the
validity of that story in general and specifically
Springfield or rather just Ohio in general
and
and the use in the debate
and and why you think that might have
come up and overlapping with the we Brent
may mention Jimmy Barbecue and the story there
of cannibalism. And, you know, is there a
thread here? Like, why do you think that's
being used?
Yeah. I mean, in terms of the recent,
you know,
I would call hysteria
about Haitians eating animals,
it seems to me like a just a
campaign strategy
for,
for for the Trump campaign,
that was cooked up probably with Elon Musk,
whoever is advising Trump's, Trump's campaign,
because, you know, of course, now that Elon
Musk is the owner of of x,
or, you know, the front man for x
or what, you know, whatever whatever he is,
I mean, there's a huge, huge, huge amount
of,
of kind of
influencers
that, you know, are are paid through his
whole,
you know, there's the subscription thing and then
the ad revenue,
and and, you know, only some accounts will
get ad revenue depending on if your content
is ad revenue friendly.
So,
you know, you I mean, you know, many
of those accounts, the the Ian Michaels Chongs
of the world, and it's you know, these
guys
make, you know, tens of 1,000 of dollars
per month. So they can basically, Elon can
it looks like just hand out a directive.
Okay. Everyone promote these cat these Haitians eating
cat and dog memes, and and, you know,
he's in with the Trump campaign. So,
you know, it's it's
firmly on the side of Trump. Whereas the,
you know, the the more mainstream media, the,
you know, CNNs and New York Times are
obviously on the on the side of, the
Kamala Harris campaign.
So,
yeah, I mean, the the stories
that of these alleged,
cat
Haitians eating cats, well, they were totally phony
to start with. I mean, the one the
one that went viral was, you know,
happened the month before,
in another not in Springfield, Ohio. I think
in Canton, Ohio, and it was a woman
who was actually not even Haitian,
but that, you know, became a huge thing.
And then there was another,
image of a actually from Ohio. Right? Exactly.
I don't know whether it's ever proven that
she actually ate it. That was just shouted
in the video that we never verified. You
know? Right. Right.
And then and then the other one was
like some guy carrying a goose.
And I think, you know, the origin of
it was like he was actually or, you
know, it turned out he was actually, like,
helping the goose or something like that. It
wasn't even Haitian. It was, you know, just
some photo from Reddit. So it's all just
totally absurd, and it just gets turned into
these viral memes and hysteria.
And, you know,
there's there's
you know, it it's
it just became like this is okay, obviously,
for Trump to talk about, and then he
talked about it with the debate. Oh, in
Springfield, they're talking about or, you know, they're
eating they're eating the pets. They're eating the
cats, and
and, you know, the thing is
they don't wanna talk about it's it becomes
a proxy for a real issue. So it's
but it's it's like a dog whistle. And
so it's it's it's a proxy for a
real issue, which is, you know, migration and
economics and the depression of middle America and
what's actually happening. And And so there is
a part of it that's real even though
it's factually incorrect.
And so,
you know, of course, Kamala Harris is just
gonna say, oh, you're crazy. That's racist.
And but she's not gonna address what's actually
going on.
You know, the the real thing that it's
a that it's, you know, a a proxy
for,
and, you know, the like, all the media
that went out to debunk to immediately debunk
Trump,
and, you know, and JD Vance.
You know, the all the mainstream media, these
are the same media outlets that, like, lie
us into wars and about Russiagate and every
other thing all the time. And they don't
they also don't wanna talk about the actual
issues,
you know, of of the of the decline
of the middle class. So,
you know, it's to me, it's like
Trump, the the right wing, basically wants to
talk about doesn't doesn't wanna talk about the
root, but does wanna talk about the symptom.
And the, you know, the liberal class doesn't
wanna talk about, the root or the symptom,
but they just want to, you know, portray
anyone who does get hepped up on this,
you know, on these lies about the symptoms
as as a racist. And certainly those those
memes are like playing on racist tropes and
there's a long kind of, you know I
mean, we were talking about before how kind
of Haiti occupies the
American
imagination
as this, you know, nation of,
of of savages, and it's just so easy
to play into that. It's Right. But,
I don't think it's a it's a winning
strategy
overall.
Again, it's just playing to Trump's base, and
it's a mostly online phenomenon.
You know, my unless you're, like, on Twitter,
are you gonna know what he's talking about
with, you know, these cats and, you know,
Haitians eating cats? It's like that doesn't really
address the material reality that most people are
living on.
And, you know, I mean, the thing is
if there was a real
nationalist
movement
in the United States, like, if if or
if MAGA wasn't being led by,
you know,
con men,
neo cons and con men, and
then, you know, they could look at Haiti
and say, hey. There is a movement,
there led by this guy, Jimmy Barbecue Charizier,
who,
does want to improve his country and reverse
the migration flow and,
develop and have mutually beneficial
relations with the United States. Like but, you
know, everyone's too
hepped up on the right is too hepped
up on all the stupid propaganda,
because, fundamentally, they're the same as as the
Liberals. They just wanna control and dominate and
destroy. So it's just the two wings of
of the Uniparty.
But it's
it's a you know,
I hope it's a failing strategy, honestly.
I, you know, I hope Haiti is able
to to actually you know, this kind of
revolutionary
movement that we documented in in in our
film, Another Vision, and then we did, like,
an update that we released in,
I think, in April or May called,
Haiti Interventional Revolution. I hope they succeed, and
they can actually develop the country. And, you
know, hopefully,
enough of us in the United States will
come to our senses at some point that
we can, you know, join the rest of
the world.
Yeah. I agree. I mean and and your
point there, you know, it's interesting because it
highlights the idea of, like, what will work
for the different campaigns, but I still come
back to the larger point that if my
mind, it is a uni party. And I
mean and in my mind, that extends to
everything, including the supposed election that we're about
to go into. And so what I see
this as is what I wrote here in
regard to what Jimmy Dorr pointed this out
in regard to something you've commented on, JD
Vance, and the conversation around this, where he
simply says the part you're leaving out is
that those Haitian refugees are created by the
oligarchs, western economic hitman, and imperialism, which we've
discussed today. But here's the part that I
think Jimmy left out which is why I
think this will it's why you're you're saying
they won't address it or they're both ignoring
the real point. I think this is why.
I said, great point, Jimmy, and therein lies
the 2 party illusion grift. They'll never address
it since all sides have an interest in
maintaining the foreign policy and immigration pipeline, which
we discussed today. They turn us against ourselves,
which only benefits the power structure and maintains
the status quo. Now, Kim, Kim felt that
there wasn't necessarily a
organized effort to do that, but I think
it's worth considering
that this even if it is just a
byproduct, that it is in fact being indoor
you know, even allowed and ignored because it
does have a benefit for both sides of
the paradigm. Even if there are genuine disagreements
or differences or fighting, at the end of
the day, the uni party does have a
central interest that I think that meets. Do
you think you agree with that?
Yeah. Oh, definitely. I think I think, at
least, we could ask him. But I think
what Kim thought was not orchestrated is is,
like, where migrants, you know, land, you know,
where they which cities they end up in,
that kind of thing. But, definitely, in terms
of the overall
strategy,
I mean, I think it though even, you
know, at the at that level of where
where migrants land, I mean, you know, with
regular people, I think that, you know, they
land where there's opportunity. And as as Kim
pointed out, you know, there's there are jobs
and and prices are are low. So they're
not gonna, you know,
be like living in, you know, Marin County
in California or wherever. Nope. I don't know.
Who knows? People just show up wherever there's
work. But,
I mean, you do have to wonder about
you know,
with criminal networks
I mean, it's no secret that criminal networks
are tied to intelligence agencies. It's not like
they're just totally organic. And so say if,
I don't know,
there's some desirable piece of land or some
real estate that BlackRock wanted to buy up.
Hey. Why not send, you know, some some
criminal,
like, networks to go destabilize it and get
people to move out and wanna, you know,
sell their sell their property.
And then, you know, then you can swoop
in and and buy it all up. I'm
not saying there's evidence of that, but,
objectively,
it plays out that way.
So, you know, I I think, definitely, there's
a there's a the the broader strategy is
totally
intentional,
and you certainly have to,
wonder about it at the at the kind
of,
you know, the lower level.
Right. Well, see, the to me, this overlaps
with an interesting part of the story, and
this goes into why the and the the
many reasons you outlined in the and anybody
that has, you know, objectivity and willing to
do their due diligence that there's, I mean,
far, far, far more
outright lies and misinformation and old stories being
lumped on top of this narrative right now.
And but what's interesting to me is it
turns out this, and this is from the
the New Republic,
that the
before this, before the debate, before the conversation,
there was a group I'm sure you're familiar
with called the blood tribe, which I be
quite honest, my opinion is that it's very
obviously influenced by whether the FBI or intelligence,
same as Patriot Front. That's my opinion. But
they ultimately it turns out that they were
spreading these these same sentiments going back long
well before. This is posted on September 10th,
but the point oops.
I went too far. There we go. The
point is that this actually was stated before
that,
but this is one of the members of
the blood tribe speaking, guess what, Springfield City
commission meeting, which is exactly
the same as the one that went viral.
Not the same guy. I I don't even
think it's connected. But here's a guy speaking
at that exact same thing right before this
saying about the ducks and so on. And
so I find it fascinating that this you
could argue this effect effectively started before all
of that coming from some of these, what
they're calling, neo Nazi groups, which clearly they
are, but whether that's really the origin of
it, I just thought that was fascinating. You
want you wanna comment on that? Yeah. Yeah.
No. You you hit it on the head.
That's that's exactly it. You have to wonder
how much of this
is actually just totally coordinated
and and and planned out.
And, yeah, I mean, so many of these
white supremacist groups are actually just controlled by
feds and are just useful idiots,
and and do the bidding of of, you
know, of the Uni Party. So that's exactly
it. Like, I I had seen that video.
I haven't actually watched it. It was just
like, oh, of course, you know? So, I
mean, it's it's just
infuriating,
like like you said before how
banal this all gets and and how manipulative
and and,
I don't know. I I just
just like
I I I kind of hate Twitter now.
I mean, it's it's like I almost
I almost prefer the old censorship regime, the
more liberal censor censorship regime because it was,
like, more in your face, and now it's
just like me cat memes and guys, like,
thanking Trump for restore
thanking Elon Musk for restoring free speech. And
it's just like, this is this is even
though
yeah. While censoring and Elon Musk is like
is like,
oh, there's freedom of speech, but not freedom
of reach. So it's like, okay. So if
they don't like what you say, then you're
just gonna be shadow banned. So it's like
a a more insidious form of censorship.
And, you know, and it's really it's really
sophisticated. I mean, I think, you know,
like, you have to look at accounts even
I I think there's also continuity between the
old Twitter regime. I mean, this is not
directly related to the Haiti thing, but I
think it's worth considering
When we look at just these information operations,
there's continuity between, of course, the old Twitter
regime and the current Twitter regime where
accounts that were
banned,
are back. But how many of those accounts
were banned in order to kind of give
them credibility,
so when they come back, oh, the narrative
they're promoting must be subversive.
What's I'm trying to think of his name
in Germany, the guy, who wrote,
like, the new normal and is being prosecuted
by the German courts.
It's killing me. I can't think of his
name, but, you know, he made that point.
If you ever saw the movie, The Departed,
where,
and Leonardo Dicaprio
is a what? He's a cop, and they
send him to jail,
for a while to basically, you know, give
him credibility as a criminal so he can
infiltrate. And it and it's that kind of
thing. Like, it's not that sophisticated, but I
think people, you know, often kind of take
it for granted. So I think the kind
of
the disinformation
operations and the kind of social media,
control apparatus
has become more sophisticated,
and and it rebranded very well under,
under Elon Musk. And so, you know, you
but but I think it becomes so clear
how coordinated so much of it is. For
one thing, when you see,
these, you know, Haitian cat memes, how obvious
that is that it's, you know, just to
support Trump.
And then the other thing that I look
at all the time is, like, I don't
know if it's just, you know, the algorithm
that's pumped into my feed, but I see
so much, like, just Jew hatred all the
time. Jews this. It's the Jews. It's the
Jews. Mhmm. Since October 7th, since, you know,
this genocide kicked off. And I mean the
main thing for me is, well, you know,
this is a product of Zionism. Like these
things, you know, like some guy blaming Jews
would just be some, like, whack job in
the corner if it wasn't for the quote
unquote Jewish state doing all of these things
in the name of Jews.
And so then it gains traction. But when
I think of, like, okay, you know, someone
says it's the Jews, whatever, and they get,
like, 5 or 10000
retweets and 70,000 likes or whatever. I'm like,
wait a minute.
But Elon Musk said,
that, you know, if they don't like it,
then he's gonna he's gonna soft censor it.
It's right you don't have freedom of reach.
So that's intentional that stuff like that is
being given freedom of reach. That it's that
it's not being suppressed. In fact, it's being
promoted,
and it's basically to support the whole notion,
the Zionist notion,
that Jews equal Israel. And so as long
as you're staying within this paradigm of,
you know, whether you believe one way that
it's that it's good or bad, like if
you're a Zionist and you believe, oh, this
is the Jewish state and we have to
kill all those Palestinians and everything they're doing
blowing up, you know, cell phones in Lebanon,
that's good. Then you're fine. And if you
believe that the Jews are Israel, then you're
fine because you're not questioning you're not gonna
get censored on Twitter. Or if you do,
it will be like, you know, Lucas Gauge
who was, like, censored. He was he was
suspended for, like, 3 weeks and then brought
back. And it's like, I've never seen anyone
temporarily
have their account suspended.
You know, where where they announce that, like,
you're suspended
for, you know, 3 weeks or 6 weeks
or 6 months or whatever. It's like, if
you're suspended, you're suspended. That's what I've always
seen. I've never seen other anyone other than
outright Neo Nazis,
have that where they're temporarily
suspended. And that's the Leonardo DiCaprio thing where,
you know, to establish credibility
when really,
you know, what they're doing is supporting Zionism.
So totally kind of off track, but this
is the bigger picture, I think. No. It's
it's since you bring it up, it's it's
fascinating. And I I agree. I think it's
very deliberate. Now I'm I'm I'm very much
with you on the reality of Zionism and
how it uses Judaism and the point being
that to your to your excellent point there
is I didn't even thought about the idea
that, essentially,
by the statement that freedom of reach not
or speech not reach, the idea is that
you're saying that then that must mean that
they're, you know, allowing this to get the
reach that it would or or or boosting
it. And so that's support. But, also, that
Yacarino and Elon have said that they're working
with the ADL, that they're going to remove
thing. And so, yeah, how does that make
sense? And I think you know exactly where
this is going is that it makes sense
because that's exactly that is Zionism and how
it works. The creation of that and I
would say not just hyping what you pointed
out, but also
making it look as if the problem of
anti semitism is much larger than it actually
is, which is how they maintain their presence.
And, obviously, there is racism. And that's to
put your point. If it wasn't for the
way they were using this, I agree. It
would be regarded as it would in any
normal society. You're a gross person. You can
say whatever you want over there. You know?
And it's it's interesting that that is,
you know, I think that's a huge part
of it. And to bring it back to
what we're saying today, we saw with Venezuela,
with with Musk and you know, like, look.
Free speech is I will always draw
that line. Whether it's Musk or, you know,
an oligarch or a millionaire a billionaire military
contractor, you have a right to free speech.
But the moment that it crossed the line
where he is a government contractor, he's about
to be on a cabinet
for the presidency.
So what at what point, and maybe even
right now, does that become a state action?
Does that change the dynamic of what he's
doing? And I think we all kinda sense
and see his interest, maybe lithium. I don't
know. But clearly an interest in
acting against Maduro when all of a sudden
you know, you look back at his history
on his on his account, there was no
engagement of Venezuela and just on a dime.
He's just all about it. And so this
brings back the, you know, the memes and
the cat all of this stuff. I definitely,
my personal opinion, see a in a coordinated
effort here. And that, you know, and this
goes back to a lot of these conversations,
and I personally even take it one step
further back, see this as sort of this
technocratic push and we don't have to get
into this if you don't like, but the
idea of, like, the the the different
dynamics of governance around the world. And I
go back to Honduras and Prospera or as
you highlighted with these kind of new
the new structures they're using to sort of
take control. Maybe these are all trial balloons,
you know, and different ways to test these
things out. It's it's quite alarming to me.
So you can comment then if you'd like.
I'd like to end with the idea of,
you know, the Jimmy barbecue aspect of this
and how, you know, the really just the
overarching idea, and I'll bring up these tweets
about, you know, why they're you know, where
why did this begin in your mind right
here at this point? Why was this sudden
point, you know, Alex Jones, the rest of
them, and the voodoo, and the eating animals,
and he's a cannibal? Like, why was that
plucked out? Is that just because of Haiti
in the past there? And, you know, your
thoughts on that.
Yeah. Yeah. I think you're you're absolutely right.
All of these are, you know, different trials.
It's,
you know, different testing grounds. I mean,
you know,
like, there are a lot of different places
that have been kind of described as laboratories,
for you know, Gaza is a laboratory for
Israeli weapons,
where the West Bank is a laboratory for
Israeli repression,
and then that's that's exported around. You know,
Haiti is always kind of because of its
vanguard role, is always, a laboratory
for, you know, imperial
shenanigans. Even, you know, I think Greg Grandin
wrote a book called The Empire's Workshop and,
you know, about Latin America. So it's, you
know, everywhere is basically a laboratory.
And, you know, depending on the specific and
unique countries of
or conditions of different countries,
they'll try something else. So definitely, you know,
what you're talking about. Yeah. This,
Prospera thing in Honduras, which I I mean,
I've only looked into a little bit, but,
it sounds wild.
I mean, I think,
you know, I think actually that the thing
that
if we weren't so focused on
these stupid cat stories,
there's a bigger picture that I think looking
at at Haiti,
you know, Haiti again, Haiti is always at
the vanguard. It's always the forefront of, like,
what's coming whether, you know, Kim was describing
that with the Haitian Revolution of 1804,
with the the pink tide, you know, that
was the first
left wing leader elected in Latin America,
before Chavez or Morales or or, you know,
any of those guys.
And
like when you go to Haiti, you basically
see that there is no middle class.
The vast majority live in extreme poverty.
A tiny
few live in opulent wealth
where I mean, it was shocking for me
to go up into the hills,
above Port au Prince,
into Petionville, it's called, and areas around there
where I mean, it's like Beverly Hills style
mansions,
with, you know, we took I I showed
this in a piece I did for redacted,
but I took my drone
and just flew it around and, you you
know, these huge rolling hills with massive mansions
and swimming pools and helicopter pads, and I
was just, like, shocked. And then,
you know, the the slums
on,
lower down are basically just living in
varying degrees,
of poverty and literal
filth and excrement because the the sewage there's
the
the canals where, like, sewage and trash drain
just go down. And and the further you
are down, and basically the lower the lower
your your socioeconomic
classes,
the more garbage and excrement pile up. And
the government, because it basically
doesn't exist, thanks to the US,
doesn't dredge these canals anymore. So, like, in
an area like Cite Soleil, which, you know,
I saw,
these, like, white supremacist accounts
claiming this is a Haitian village. This is
what Haitians do. They just live in garbage.
And it's a total dystopian,
you know,
landscape where it's just literally garbage everywhere in
tin shacks. Well, that's what has been created.
And that's what they what I see is
that's what they want to do in the
United States. That's what they want to do
to us. They want to just
extract all the wealth,
have people live in the worst conditions possible
where they, you know, have low life expectancy,
where they'll work at best, you know, in
in,
sweatshop,
labor conditions
where they'll get into some of them will
get into criminal activity,
to basically keep each other down and fight.
I mean, that's what that's that's not a
unique thing to Haiti. This is a thing.
All these people who are saying, oh, it's
because Haitians, their IQ is 67.
It's like, no. You are carrying water for
the Clinton Foundation that you claim to oppose.
This is because of the conditions that Haiti
has been subjected to by the same ruling
class that is destroying our country. So,
you know, you're just their little tool. So
the the real thing to do is understand
what's actually how Haiti got to that point
and how similar processes
are playing out here and to look at,
well,
okay. How did Haiti,
how is Haiti
removing itself from this position, improving its conditions?
And one of the ways is this guy,
Jimmy Barbecue Cherizier, who was smeared on x
earlier this year as a cannibal even though
that was totally false.
And, you know, really, he's a guy who's
it's you know, there's been, like, so many
movies in the US about, like, a cop,
you know, a do gooder cop who's trying
to, you know, do good within the system,
and then he gets burned.
And so that's who Cheri Zier is. There's
like the movie Serpico from, like, the seventies,
I think. There's, you know, like I don't
know. Kim I was talking to Kim about
it a couple days ago. He's like it's
like the Wild West in Haiti.
The the demarcations
between,
you know, state and non state are not
totally clear who the good guys are, who
the bad guys are. So you can have,
you know, so called gangs or, you know,
non state armed groups that are,
that are popular, that are doing good things
for the people. And that's what Chervisier and
you can have corrupt police. And that's what
Chervisier,
you know, he was in the corrupt police
trying to do his best, and they burned
him, and he became
a basically, a revolutionary.
And so he's trying to unite these different
neighborhoods
to have a revolution against
these criminal, you
know, criminals in in suits and ties,
and that's why he's being demonized. That's why,
you know, he's on Twitter. They call him
a cannibal and and all of these things.
So
it's it's,
you know, a very interesting process that's playing
out, and I wish I really wish more
independent journalists would go would go check it
out, honestly.
I mean, I've been really privileged to do
it since 2021
when I, after the president of Haiti was
assassinated, Jovenel Moise, and I I called Kim
who I knew before, but and we we
headed down there not long after, and that
turned into this documentary, which I I didn't,
you know, plan. And,
but, you know, there's they're very, very, very
there are really no other journalists I know
who go down there to, like, see what's
going on.
And and I really encourage it. So,
you know, it's it's so eye opening,
and and, you know, Haiti I mean, it's
it's really it's an amazing country too. It's
not you know, despite what the pictures on
Twitter,
show, it's,
it's a it's a fascinating place and deserves
a lot more attention.
Yeah. And, you know, who who knows what
it could actually be if it wasn't being
stepped on for so long by by Western
foreign policy. You know? And so that's actually
why I wanted to bring this up to
end is that it brings it full circle.
Right? Is that as Kim was describing in
the beginning or, you know, of the discussion
we're having, that now we see Jimmy and
others beginning to I think and I think
a lot of countries in the world that
are under, you know, western suppression and foreign
policy are are seeing this opening as well.
Whether it's because of Zionism's collapse or other
diminishing power structure and influence, There's other places
that are going, okay. You know, we have
an opening here to actually fight for our
interests and I think that's what we're seeing
in Haiti. I think that's why this is
being kicked off, the cannibal.
It's just it's just lazy dehumanization.
Right? I mean, as well as many other
things I'm sure we could point out. But
I I think this is the, you know,
the dying gas, the desperation, the cornered animal,
whatever analogy we wanna use here where we
see the western
specifically US government foreign policy losing its influence
and desperately trying to maintain that power as
others begin to recognize an opening to, you
know, fight for their own determination. Gaza, whatever
else we're talking about here, you know? And
so, it's important that I think that people
take what you're saying to heart and consider
this. And as you said, you know, yeah,
if you're a journalist, maybe go look at
it for yourself instead of parroting images from
people and, you know, oligarch
government contractors on Twitter, you know, to make
sure we're thinking for ourselves. So, you know,
thank you for for breaking this all down
for us. I think this is such an
important conversation.
On the way out, I wanted your your
thought on one thing that I I sent
you a second before, the interview started. I
just saw it. It's breaking news. I wanted
your thoughts on if this is relevant or
maybe just a random event. Unidentified gunman,
kill high ranking migration
official in the in Haiti's biggest cities. This
is from, from today. So you have any
thoughts on that? I'm I'm sure you'd have
time to look into it or anything, but
just is it's interesting that it's a migration
official and what that is and, you know,
any thoughts?
Yeah. I I do not know,
anything about it. I was I I just
saw the headline you sent me right before
we started.
Mhmm. Sorry to spring it on you. I
just thought it was interesting. No. No. It's
our
it's, it's okay. I mean, it is a
good question.
Who I mean, okay. I will say Cap
Haitien, which is in the in in the
north of the country, this is where that
happened,
is a much more stable,
area than Port au Prince. I mean, they
don't really have,
you know, quote, unquote gangs there. They did
before. I think they've been pretty much eliminated.
Kim and I were there in,
I think, in February. During this last trip,
we went to Cap Haitien, and we met
with,
these this group called with BASEAP, which is,
basically, like,
environmental
rangers
who who are kind of with this proto
revolutionary ideology,
and the government has tried to disband,
because they can't control them. So,
you know, it may be a way
to try to destabilize
cap Haitian in the, you know, the the
kind of northwest of the country.
So
beyond that, I have I have no idea.
It's, you know, it's it's it's a it's
a great question. Well, thank thank you for
your your, you know, your opinion on it,
your insight on that. And I I think
that I, you know, I I said I
I feel like one of the things that
jumped in my head was similar is that
just because just the the expanding of of
the of the effort or, you know, whether
it becomes relevant that he's a migration officer
or not, well, I'm sure I'll cover this
in future shows. But, you know, yeah, same
thing. I just really think that people need
to to step outside of their paradigm, the
the political lens they're looking through and and
consider what it really means to have your
your tax dollars, your governments acting on your
behalf
literally destroying, destabilizing,
pillaging foreign countries for no one's interest other
than themselves and, typically, for something outside of
even our own country. We're talking about globalist
entities or something else. So I, you know,
I recommend you all take a look at
Dan's work, his documentaries. We'll include all this
in the show notes. You know, thank you
for being here, Dan. I really enjoyed the
conversation as much as it's a tough topic.
Anything else you wanna leave for us on
the way out? Any upcoming work or final
thoughts?
No. Just,
working working hard on some unannounced undisclosed projects,
but hopefully, we'll have some, I'll have an
announcement soon. But, no. Just wanna thank you,
Ryan, for for having, having me on, having
Kim on and and the platform, and, look
forward to doing it again.
Thanks, Dan. Appreciate it. And as always, everybody
out there, question everything. Come to your own
conclusions.
Stay vigilant.