1 00:00:00,145 --> 00:00:00,185 - 2 00:00:24,485 --> 00:00:26,535 - Welcome to the last American Vagabond. 3 00:00:26,565 --> 00:00:29,175 I'll be joined today again by Zachary Foster PhD, 4 00:00:29,515 --> 00:00:32,455 who has a history or has a PhD in the history 5 00:00:32,455 --> 00:00:33,655 of Palestine from Princeton 6 00:00:33,835 --> 00:00:36,015 to discuss his perspectives on what's going on. 7 00:00:36,015 --> 00:00:38,535 Obviously, this is very relevant to the current dynamic 8 00:00:38,565 --> 00:00:41,055 between Palestine, Gaza, and Israel. 9 00:00:41,435 --> 00:00:43,175 And dive a little deeper with him than our, 10 00:00:43,175 --> 00:00:44,895 than our last conversation on some topics. 11 00:00:45,295 --> 00:00:47,055 'cause we recently discussed a lot 12 00:00:47,055 --> 00:00:48,615 of these different overlaps of the history 13 00:00:48,615 --> 00:00:49,815 of Zionism with him. 14 00:00:49,815 --> 00:00:51,255 And I'd like to talk about a few more points 15 00:00:51,255 --> 00:00:52,455 that I think are very relevant. 16 00:00:52,515 --> 00:00:53,935 Nobody better to talk to about this. 17 00:00:53,995 --> 00:00:55,055 So, Zachary, how are you today? 18 00:00:55,055 --> 00:00:56,135 It's good to have you back on the show. 19 00:00:56,795 --> 00:00:58,295 - Thanks so much for having me back. 20 00:00:59,075 --> 00:01:00,135 - My pleasure. My pleasure. 21 00:01:00,755 --> 00:01:01,895 So I'd, I'd like to start 22 00:01:02,205 --> 00:01:04,655 with the general perspective of yours. 23 00:01:04,715 --> 00:01:06,855 I'd like to ask you your perspective right now with, 24 00:01:06,915 --> 00:01:09,015 you know, since this has been something that you've studied 25 00:01:09,235 --> 00:01:11,375 for a long time, obvi your life's work. 26 00:01:11,375 --> 00:01:12,535 It would seem you've been studying this. 27 00:01:12,915 --> 00:01:14,615 So in your perspective 28 00:01:14,725 --> 00:01:16,375 with what's going on in the world right now, 29 00:01:18,315 --> 00:01:19,805 what do you see changing the most? 30 00:01:20,065 --> 00:01:22,645 And, and is, is it shocking to you to see 31 00:01:22,665 --> 00:01:24,285 so much awareness around these topics? 32 00:01:24,745 --> 00:01:26,085 And, and why do you think that is? 33 00:01:26,675 --> 00:01:28,605 Post-OC October 7th around these kind 34 00:01:28,605 --> 00:01:31,525 of historical lies about like whether Palestine existed and 35 00:01:31,585 --> 00:01:34,925 and so on, and this kind of rapid awakening to so many lies 36 00:01:34,925 --> 00:01:36,765 that have been spun by the Zionist entity? 37 00:01:38,115 --> 00:01:39,655 - You're right. We are seeing a, a, 38 00:01:39,975 --> 00:01:42,975 a sea change in public opinion, not just in the US 39 00:01:43,075 --> 00:01:44,935 but almost everywhere around the world. 40 00:01:45,775 --> 00:01:47,215 I think the reasons are pretty obvious. 41 00:01:47,835 --> 00:01:50,575 You have a, a, a genocide taking place. 42 00:01:50,635 --> 00:01:54,015 You have more journalists killed than in any, uh, uh, uh, 43 00:01:54,155 --> 00:01:56,175 war ever wage in modern history. 44 00:01:56,515 --> 00:01:57,895 You, you have more healthcare workers 45 00:01:57,915 --> 00:01:59,295 killed than in any war wage. 46 00:01:59,295 --> 00:02:01,375 In modern history. We're talking about over 400 healthcare 47 00:02:01,375 --> 00:02:04,335 workers, medical professionals, doctors slaughtered, uh, 48 00:02:04,335 --> 00:02:05,455 just trying to treat patients. 49 00:02:05,875 --> 00:02:07,335 Uh, you're talking about aid workers. 50 00:02:07,435 --> 00:02:09,695 You have more than, I believe, 200 aid workers killed. 51 00:02:10,555 --> 00:02:14,255 Uh, um, you have people going to, uh, retrieve 52 00:02:14,255 --> 00:02:17,095 that aid being slaughtered at the infamous flower massacre, 53 00:02:17,165 --> 00:02:19,895 obviously, uh, uh, the, the, the attack on, um, 54 00:02:20,395 --> 00:02:21,695 on the foreign aid organization 55 00:02:21,695 --> 00:02:22,895 that led Biden to shift course. 56 00:02:23,475 --> 00:02:24,975 Um, so we're really talking about it. 57 00:02:24,975 --> 00:02:26,935 80% of houses and Gaza have been either 58 00:02:26,935 --> 00:02:28,335 partially or completely destroyed. 59 00:02:28,555 --> 00:02:31,575 You're talking about the complete annihilation of an entire, 60 00:02:38,045 --> 00:02:39,045 - Did I lose you? 61 00:02:41,395 --> 00:02:43,185 Still there? There you go. Apologies. Go ahead. 62 00:02:43,185 --> 00:02:45,265 We, we lost, we lost you for a minute. Go ahead. Keep going. 63 00:02:46,085 --> 00:02:48,585 - So I think when you're looking at that, that amount 64 00:02:48,585 --> 00:02:51,945 of violence, that amount of brutality, um, and then, 65 00:02:52,165 --> 00:02:53,185 and then at the same time, 66 00:02:53,185 --> 00:02:55,985 when you're seeing the United States government, as well 67 00:02:55,985 --> 00:02:58,665 as the uk as well as Germany, as well as most 68 00:02:58,665 --> 00:03:01,765 of the G seven, as well as most of the major, uh, 69 00:03:01,765 --> 00:03:03,405 global powers, basically just standing 70 00:03:03,545 --> 00:03:07,365 by either in support outright, as in the case in the us, uk, 71 00:03:07,365 --> 00:03:10,205 and Germany, or just completely silent doing nothing. 72 00:03:10,635 --> 00:03:11,885 It's a total travesty. 73 00:03:12,225 --> 00:03:13,245 And I think that's one 74 00:03:13,245 --> 00:03:15,165 of the reasons why we're seeing such an awakening. 75 00:03:15,825 --> 00:03:18,445 - Mm-Hmm, . Well, so, I mean, what we've seen, 76 00:03:18,545 --> 00:03:20,005 and I completely agree with you, 77 00:03:20,065 --> 00:03:22,725 but it's interesting to me to ask why now. 78 00:03:23,085 --> 00:03:25,565 I mean, obviously it's never been this belligerent 79 00:03:25,635 --> 00:03:26,685 this in your face. 80 00:03:27,115 --> 00:03:29,125 This, the statement I make often is that really, 81 00:03:29,125 --> 00:03:32,405 when you acknowledge the numbers, there's just no excuse 82 00:03:32,405 --> 00:03:34,525 that makes that seem okay to the average person, 83 00:03:34,525 --> 00:03:35,605 15,000 children. 84 00:03:35,795 --> 00:03:37,325 There's nothing you can lay over that, 85 00:03:37,325 --> 00:03:38,445 that makes it seem acceptable. 86 00:03:38,785 --> 00:03:42,485 But there's been times in the past, human rights watch, ams, 87 00:03:42,485 --> 00:03:45,165 international, you know, people calling out very serious 88 00:03:45,165 --> 00:03:48,125 crimes that in some cases did get a lot of recognition. 89 00:03:48,305 --> 00:03:50,565 So is there anything else that you see different today than, 90 00:03:50,565 --> 00:03:52,885 than the many times in the past that this has been sort 91 00:03:52,885 --> 00:03:54,925 of covered up by, by their allies 92 00:03:54,925 --> 00:03:55,965 and different governments in the world? 93 00:03:56,585 --> 00:03:58,405 - Oh, well, there is one key difference, which is 94 00:03:58,405 --> 00:04:02,845 that in the previous wars, um, the 20, uh, 2008, 2009, 95 00:04:02,845 --> 00:04:04,645 aggression known as cast lead in Israel, 96 00:04:04,905 --> 00:04:08,125 in which Israel slaughtered about a thousand people, 700 97 00:04:08,265 --> 00:04:10,565 to 900 of whom were, uh, were civilians. 98 00:04:10,735 --> 00:04:13,285 Right? So in that aggression, um, 99 00:04:13,625 --> 00:04:17,085 Israel killed more Palestinians in Gaza than Hamas killed on 100 00:04:17,085 --> 00:04:18,805 October 7th in, in Israel. 101 00:04:19,115 --> 00:04:20,205 Okay. But of course, 102 00:04:20,205 --> 00:04:21,805 there wasn't the same degree of outrage. 103 00:04:21,805 --> 00:04:26,045 There wasn't the same, uh, uh, uh, degree of solidarity 104 00:04:26,305 --> 00:04:28,485 and support for, uh, uh, for the Palestinians 105 00:04:28,545 --> 00:04:30,885 as we are now seeing in, in terms of support for Israel. 106 00:04:31,105 --> 00:04:33,525 Why is that? And I think the answer is pretty simple, right? 107 00:04:33,525 --> 00:04:35,365 It's because, um, for the first time, 108 00:04:35,885 --> 00:04:38,685 I think in the entirety of this conflict, certainly, uh, 109 00:04:39,545 --> 00:04:41,405 for, for many, many decades, for the first time, 110 00:04:41,405 --> 00:04:42,445 the victims are also Jewish. 111 00:04:42,545 --> 00:04:43,845 The victims are also Israelis. 112 00:04:43,945 --> 00:04:45,165 And that's the key difference. I mean, 113 00:04:45,165 --> 00:04:47,725 that's the only real difference between this aggression, um, 114 00:04:47,745 --> 00:04:49,725 and the previous aggressions on Gaza, right? 115 00:04:49,985 --> 00:04:52,245 2008, Israel killed a thousand Palestinians. 116 00:04:52,245 --> 00:04:54,845 2014, Israel killed more than 2000 Palestinians, 117 00:04:55,525 --> 00:04:56,805 1400 of whom were civilians. 118 00:04:57,145 --> 00:04:59,725 So again, like why was there not the same outrage back then? 119 00:05:00,105 --> 00:05:02,525 Um, right. Directed towards Israel, um, 120 00:05:02,905 --> 00:05:05,285 as there is outrage directed towards Hamas. 121 00:05:05,785 --> 00:05:08,205 Um, so again, it's, it's, I think it's pretty clear it's 122 00:05:08,565 --> 00:05:12,285 because Palestinian lives according to, um, most 123 00:05:12,285 --> 00:05:14,725 of the world, certainly the United States, uh, uh, 124 00:05:14,725 --> 00:05:16,965 the Biden administration, certainly most of, uh, uh, 125 00:05:16,965 --> 00:05:19,205 the eu the Palestinian lives just aren't worth as much. 126 00:05:20,125 --> 00:05:22,935 - Yeah. And unfortunately, that's a, a shocking reality 127 00:05:22,935 --> 00:05:25,975 to some, something we've been aware 128 00:05:25,975 --> 00:05:27,095 of for most, for a long time. 129 00:05:27,115 --> 00:05:28,895 But it's been, it's really kind of breaking 130 00:05:28,895 --> 00:05:31,535 through even in the corporate media, which is interesting. 131 00:05:31,535 --> 00:05:32,535 And actually, on that note, 132 00:05:32,585 --> 00:05:34,535 since we're talking about these shifting perspectives, 133 00:05:35,155 --> 00:05:37,015 why do you think the corporate media is suddenly 134 00:05:37,675 --> 00:05:40,535 in some small cases and others, you know, moderate, 135 00:05:40,715 --> 00:05:43,055 but never the full picture are suddenly telling 136 00:05:43,115 --> 00:05:44,295 the truth in some cases? 137 00:05:44,365 --> 00:05:45,365 What do you think about that? 138 00:05:46,445 --> 00:05:48,015 - Well, even to this day, 139 00:05:48,015 --> 00:05:50,695 the New York Times is publishing headlines that are just, 140 00:05:51,615 --> 00:05:54,575 I mean, you know, they're, they're writing haikus in order 141 00:05:54,575 --> 00:05:56,015 to, um, in, in order 142 00:05:56,015 --> 00:05:58,765 to basically deflect blame away from Israel. 143 00:05:58,765 --> 00:06:00,965 Right? Right. It's like with the Flower Massacre, 144 00:06:00,985 --> 00:06:02,805 the headline of the New York Times, we could pull it up, 145 00:06:02,865 --> 00:06:06,445 I'm sure, but it was basically like literally a string 146 00:06:06,445 --> 00:06:07,565 of three phrases. 147 00:06:07,815 --> 00:06:09,285 There wasn't even a complete sentence. 148 00:06:09,285 --> 00:06:10,525 You had no idea who did the killing. 149 00:06:10,745 --> 00:06:13,605 You had no idea who got killed. It was a chaotic event. 150 00:06:13,825 --> 00:06:16,045 No, it wasn't chaos. It was Israel slaughtering 151 00:06:16,045 --> 00:06:17,125 people gonna get aid. 152 00:06:17,125 --> 00:06:19,645 That should have been the title. Israel Slaughters a hundred 153 00:06:19,645 --> 00:06:23,245 people Trying to get Aid who are being Starved by Israel. 154 00:06:23,385 --> 00:06:24,605 That's the headline. Right. 155 00:06:24,625 --> 00:06:26,005 But there's, you'll never see a headline 156 00:06:26,115 --> 00:06:27,285 like that in the New York Times. 157 00:06:27,825 --> 00:06:30,445 Um, you are correct to point out that there, there, 158 00:06:30,445 --> 00:06:31,525 there has been a shift, 159 00:06:31,585 --> 00:06:32,805 but also there's been a shift in the 160 00:06:32,805 --> 00:06:33,845 Biden administration, right? 161 00:06:33,985 --> 00:06:36,565 Mm-Hmm. , we have seen, um, at least in, 162 00:06:36,675 --> 00:06:38,165 even just in the past couple of days, 163 00:06:38,165 --> 00:06:39,525 we've seen the administration come out 164 00:06:39,525 --> 00:06:41,845 and say, explicitly, we're gonna put a pause on weapons 165 00:06:42,245 --> 00:06:44,325 transfers right after seven months of genocide 166 00:06:44,325 --> 00:06:46,405 after 35,000, probably more like 40 167 00:06:46,505 --> 00:06:48,565 to 50,000 people slaughtered if you include the people under 168 00:06:48,565 --> 00:06:51,165 the rubble after 15,000 kids slaughtered. 169 00:06:51,345 --> 00:06:53,005 Oh, no. Finally, we're drawing the, 170 00:06:53,055 --> 00:06:55,005 we're drawing a line at, at, at Rafa. 171 00:06:55,125 --> 00:06:57,965 I mean, why didn't you draw the line when they committed a, 172 00:06:58,045 --> 00:06:59,445 a mass murder inchi of hospital 173 00:06:59,505 --> 00:07:01,445 and in the hospitals in Hanes 174 00:07:01,445 --> 00:07:04,365 and in the hospitals in everywhere else in Gaza. 175 00:07:04,425 --> 00:07:07,805 So, I mean, literally, I think of the 37 hospitals in Gaza, 176 00:07:07,975 --> 00:07:09,885 every single one of them is partially damaged. 177 00:07:10,365 --> 00:07:12,445 I believe all, uh, um, uh, um, all 178 00:07:12,445 --> 00:07:15,045 but 12 are completely destroyed, including, 179 00:07:21,645 --> 00:07:22,675 - Think we lost you again. 180 00:07:25,205 --> 00:07:27,215 - Yeah. What, what, when you're destroying the entirety 181 00:07:27,215 --> 00:07:29,655 of the healthcare system, when you're mass murdering 182 00:07:29,655 --> 00:07:33,455 journalists, when you're destroying every single home in the 183 00:07:33,455 --> 00:07:37,015 guise of strip, how are these not red lines when you're 184 00:07:37,015 --> 00:07:38,335 killing aid workers in mass? 185 00:07:38,875 --> 00:07:40,975 Uh, you know, when you're killing professors in mass, 186 00:07:41,365 --> 00:07:42,535 when you're slaughtering 187 00:07:49,665 --> 00:07:50,915 - What, - Of course going on 188 00:07:50,915 --> 00:07:52,195 with my internet? I apologize for that. 189 00:07:52,225 --> 00:07:53,235 - Yeah, it's okay. 190 00:07:53,295 --> 00:07:55,075 We, of course, we lose you when we're getting into the 191 00:07:55,075 --> 00:07:56,195 important stuff, you know, as always. 192 00:07:56,215 --> 00:07:57,275 But, you know, go ahead, keep going. 193 00:07:57,735 --> 00:07:59,715 The point you, the point you're making, in case we lost it 194 00:07:59,795 --> 00:08:00,915 for the audience, is simply that 195 00:08:01,135 --> 00:08:04,075 how can we not see the red lines being crossed with 196 00:08:04,075 --> 00:08:05,075 how belligerent this is? 197 00:08:05,075 --> 00:08:06,715 Whether it's healthcare facilities, 198 00:08:06,735 --> 00:08:08,515 or any number of other things we're seeing? 199 00:08:09,185 --> 00:08:12,675 - Yeah. So I think, um, what I would say is, I think the, 200 00:08:12,675 --> 00:08:14,635 the shift in the Biden administration's rhetoric 201 00:08:14,635 --> 00:08:18,435 and even policy now with the pause placed on weapons 202 00:08:18,955 --> 00:08:21,835 transfers to Israel, I think that the shift is obviously in, 203 00:08:21,835 --> 00:08:24,915 in, in public opinion in the us It's not in Biden's view. 204 00:08:25,045 --> 00:08:26,915 Biden doesn't care about GA and children. 205 00:08:27,075 --> 00:08:28,875 I mean, that's obvious. If he cared about the lives 206 00:08:28,875 --> 00:08:29,955 of Palestinians and Gaza, 207 00:08:29,955 --> 00:08:31,155 this would've ended a long time ago. 208 00:08:31,155 --> 00:08:33,195 He doesn't give a flying fuck about the, 209 00:08:33,195 --> 00:08:34,315 the Palestinians and Gaza. 210 00:08:34,315 --> 00:08:37,075 What he cares about is winning an election in November, 211 00:08:37,855 --> 00:08:41,035 and he sees the type stern, he's, he's not a total idiot. 212 00:08:41,375 --> 00:08:44,675 He may be a genocidal maniac, but he's not stupid. 213 00:08:45,135 --> 00:08:47,675 He sees public opinion changing. He 214 00:08:50,615 --> 00:08:51,945 - Yeah, I completely agree. 215 00:08:56,185 --> 00:08:58,765 - He, he sees that you have voters writing in saying, 216 00:08:59,145 --> 00:09:00,325 I'm not gonna vote for this guy. 217 00:09:00,865 --> 00:09:04,285 Um, and so I, I, I do think that, uh, you know, it was 218 00:09:04,285 --> 00:09:05,565 that Michigan vote that played a key role. 219 00:09:05,565 --> 00:09:06,965 And there was another vote, I believe, in Minnesota. 220 00:09:07,345 --> 00:09:10,165 Uh, I can't remember the exact number of, of, uh, uh, 221 00:09:10,165 --> 00:09:13,445 of people who opted, uh, of, who opted out, who opted not 222 00:09:13,445 --> 00:09:14,485 to vote for Biden in the primary. 223 00:09:14,495 --> 00:09:15,805 Right. But he realized, 224 00:09:15,865 --> 00:09:18,285 and then obviously with the campus protests, um, 225 00:09:18,545 --> 00:09:21,925 the largest campus protest movement since the Vietnam War 226 00:09:21,925 --> 00:09:24,605 protest in the late sixties, we're talking about the, 227 00:09:24,665 --> 00:09:27,765 the most dramatic upheaval in domestic American 228 00:09:27,765 --> 00:09:29,485 politics in a half century. 229 00:09:30,025 --> 00:09:31,645 And so he's woken up, um, 230 00:09:31,645 --> 00:09:33,365 because he wants to win a reelection, not 231 00:09:33,365 --> 00:09:34,845 because he cares about people in Gaza. 232 00:09:35,365 --> 00:09:36,975 - Yeah. Well, and I completely agree. 233 00:09:36,975 --> 00:09:38,175 But then in regard to the media, 234 00:09:38,195 --> 00:09:39,415 you think that's the same reasoning? 235 00:09:39,875 --> 00:09:41,695 Is that indication of the control of the media, 236 00:09:41,695 --> 00:09:42,895 or do you think there's a different reason there? 237 00:09:43,395 --> 00:09:47,335 - No, I, I, I do think that at some point, these pundits 238 00:09:47,635 --> 00:09:51,215 who get on CNN and Fox News and M Ms M-S-N-B-C 239 00:09:51,475 --> 00:09:54,135 and who write columns in the New York Times, at some point, 240 00:09:54,655 --> 00:09:58,455 I think they're also realizing that a genocide 241 00:09:58,455 --> 00:10:00,175 that is going on for this long, 242 00:10:00,225 --> 00:10:02,015 where there's just no end in sight, where 243 00:10:02,775 --> 00:10:04,135 everyone is starting to event, like, 244 00:10:04,375 --> 00:10:06,735 I think the way I would describe the shift is, you know, 245 00:10:06,755 --> 00:10:09,415 on October 7th and maybe October 8th, 246 00:10:09,835 --> 00:10:12,215 you had basically unanimous support for Israel. 247 00:10:12,495 --> 00:10:14,175 I mean, almost unanimous, really, 248 00:10:14,175 --> 00:10:16,655 like everybody was waving Israeli flags, people 249 00:10:16,675 --> 00:10:18,575 who never cared about Israel Palestine, 250 00:10:18,575 --> 00:10:19,855 who didn't know anything about Israel, 251 00:10:20,095 --> 00:10:22,015 Palestine are putting Israeli flags in 252 00:10:22,015 --> 00:10:23,135 their social media bylaws. 253 00:10:23,315 --> 00:10:26,855 And what has happened ever since that day is that, um, more 254 00:10:26,855 --> 00:10:29,575 and more people both in the United States and in Israel 255 00:10:29,575 --> 00:10:31,895 and everywhere else, are essentially realizing 256 00:10:31,895 --> 00:10:34,935 that Israel's response is increasingly disproportionate 257 00:10:35,275 --> 00:10:36,735 and is increasingly genocidal. 258 00:10:36,765 --> 00:10:39,215 Because at a certain point, like 259 00:10:40,695 --> 00:10:42,605 Hamas stopped killing is citizens in 260 00:10:42,605 --> 00:10:43,725 Israel on October 8th, right? 261 00:10:44,155 --> 00:10:47,965 Like there was no, the, the justification to counter attack, 262 00:10:48,115 --> 00:10:50,645 okay, for a week or two or three made sense. 263 00:10:51,145 --> 00:10:52,485 But now we're seven months in, 264 00:10:52,485 --> 00:10:55,165 there's no plausible claim here that you're sort 265 00:10:55,165 --> 00:10:56,725 of responding to what happened on seventh. 266 00:10:56,785 --> 00:10:59,125 You are carrying out a genocide at this point. Right? 267 00:10:59,125 --> 00:11:00,445 Um, so I think that is, 268 00:11:00,445 --> 00:11:02,325 and then I think on top of that, what has become obvious 269 00:11:02,325 --> 00:11:04,605 to certainly these Israeli military, um, 270 00:11:04,605 --> 00:11:07,045 and also we have A-A-C-I-A and 271 00:11:07,045 --> 00:11:08,765 and Pentagon officials saying the same thing is 272 00:11:08,765 --> 00:11:11,485 that Hamas is, is un is cannot be defeated. 273 00:11:11,785 --> 00:11:14,085 Mm-Hmm. . And the longer Hamas continues 274 00:11:14,085 --> 00:11:16,645 to carry out attacks, the longer Hamas continues 275 00:11:16,645 --> 00:11:19,805 to fire rockets into Israel, it, it becomes obvious to more 276 00:11:19,805 --> 00:11:22,685 and more people that you just can't achieve these military 277 00:11:22,685 --> 00:11:23,885 objectives you set out to achieve. 278 00:11:24,065 --> 00:11:27,885 And if, if, if you accept that, that this objective 279 00:11:27,885 --> 00:11:29,405 of eradicating Hamas is 280 00:11:29,405 --> 00:11:31,085 unachievable, well then what are you doing? 281 00:11:31,145 --> 00:11:32,965 You're just, it's just a genocide at that point. 282 00:11:33,865 --> 00:11:35,525 - And I would even take it a step further 283 00:11:35,545 --> 00:11:36,925 and say, then we need to ask whether 284 00:11:36,925 --> 00:11:38,245 that is even their objective. 285 00:11:38,345 --> 00:11:40,045 And I think that's the real, the real point there is 286 00:11:40,045 --> 00:11:42,285 that it's, that's the, the narrative spun around 287 00:11:42,795 --> 00:11:46,245 what is clearly a, at the very least, belligerent, 288 00:11:46,245 --> 00:11:48,125 indiscriminate bombing of whoever's in the area, 289 00:11:48,125 --> 00:11:49,885 which I, I think it's even more than that. 290 00:11:49,985 --> 00:11:51,365 But I, I agree completely, 291 00:11:51,385 --> 00:11:53,045 and I think this goes to the larger point 292 00:11:53,145 --> 00:11:55,045 of why Hamas has been used. 293 00:11:55,665 --> 00:11:56,845 You know, whether it's the funding 294 00:11:56,865 --> 00:11:59,165 or different aspects of it in the past in that same way, 295 00:11:59,225 --> 00:12:00,645 the division of the Palestinian 296 00:12:00,645 --> 00:12:01,845 state, I think that's important. 297 00:12:02,145 --> 00:12:04,005 You, you, you bring up the, the campus protest. 298 00:12:04,285 --> 00:12:05,925 I think that's a really important aspect as well. 299 00:12:05,925 --> 00:12:07,325 And you made a really interesting point right there. 300 00:12:07,745 --> 00:12:09,525 And I, it's exactly what we're seeing in reverse, 301 00:12:09,525 --> 00:12:10,605 which is usually how this goes. 302 00:12:10,605 --> 00:12:12,405 Where you had right 303 00:12:12,405 --> 00:12:14,125 after October 7th, people 304 00:12:14,145 --> 00:12:16,765 who knew nothing about the history, which frankly, 305 00:12:16,915 --> 00:12:19,205 most people don't really understand the history there, 306 00:12:19,225 --> 00:12:21,365 but that most people didn't know anything about it. 307 00:12:21,365 --> 00:12:22,685 Were suddenly waving Israeli flags. 308 00:12:22,685 --> 00:12:24,845 Well jump forward seven months or even a few months, 309 00:12:24,845 --> 00:12:27,965 and you've got people in protest who are protesting 310 00:12:27,995 --> 00:12:30,485 what is an self-evident crime. 311 00:12:31,005 --> 00:12:32,765 I clearly think genocide as well. 312 00:12:33,545 --> 00:12:35,885 And yet you got these framings of them where they'd come out 313 00:12:35,885 --> 00:12:37,645 and talk to one person in the corner of the protest 314 00:12:37,745 --> 00:12:39,445 and be like, none of them know anything about the history 315 00:12:39,445 --> 00:12:41,565 of all of Israel or anything about October 7th. 316 00:12:41,865 --> 00:12:43,285 And the point that I make is, well, first of all, 317 00:12:43,285 --> 00:12:45,165 you don't need to understand all of that to be able 318 00:12:45,165 --> 00:12:46,565 to acknowledge crimes taking place 319 00:12:46,565 --> 00:12:49,205 and feel, uh, a drive to stop that. 320 00:12:49,205 --> 00:12:51,085 Right. But it's an interesting overlap there. 321 00:12:51,085 --> 00:12:53,485 All this wild propaganda. You have comments on that? 322 00:12:53,545 --> 00:12:55,605 Go ahead. But I'd like to ask you more about the protests 323 00:12:55,605 --> 00:12:57,405 themselves and, you know, 324 00:12:57,995 --> 00:13:00,205 what do you think it is the shift there from the different, 325 00:13:00,205 --> 00:13:02,205 the, you know, I, the two party paradigm, I think is 326 00:13:02,865 --> 00:13:05,245 so successful at keeping most people kind of trapped 327 00:13:05,785 --> 00:13:08,165 inside these narratives, pound to one side 328 00:13:08,165 --> 00:13:09,405 or the other, which makes them 329 00:13:09,405 --> 00:13:10,605 usually miss the bigger picture. 330 00:13:10,905 --> 00:13:12,885 But all of a sudden, and I, maybe it's the same reason, 331 00:13:12,885 --> 00:13:14,885 maybe just the belligerence of this shook them free, 332 00:13:15,225 --> 00:13:17,645 but we see this massive protest, which I personally see 333 00:13:17,645 --> 00:13:19,485 as more than just one left or right side. 334 00:13:19,565 --> 00:13:21,205 I think it's more than that, that has suddenly 335 00:13:21,205 --> 00:13:22,285 changed the conversation. 336 00:13:22,465 --> 00:13:24,085 Do what do you, why do you think that is? 337 00:13:24,385 --> 00:13:25,965 And do you think there's any elements of this 338 00:13:25,965 --> 00:13:27,005 that we should be concerned about? 339 00:13:28,655 --> 00:13:30,265 - Well, I think what we should con be, 340 00:13:30,365 --> 00:13:32,425 be concerned about is police violence. 341 00:13:32,935 --> 00:13:37,185 Yeah. And, and, and Israeli protests violence, mm-hmm. 342 00:13:37,205 --> 00:13:39,385 As far as I can tell, all the actual acts 343 00:13:39,385 --> 00:13:40,745 of violence have been carried out 344 00:13:41,125 --> 00:13:44,745 by pro-Israel protestors against people, uh, uh, 345 00:13:44,835 --> 00:13:46,385 protesting against a genocide. 346 00:13:46,885 --> 00:13:50,745 Um, say for the, that one, uh, you, you recall that was 347 00:13:50,745 --> 00:13:54,705 that I think a one protester who literally was like faked 348 00:13:54,705 --> 00:13:57,145 and getting poked in the eye by a Palestinian flag. 349 00:13:57,165 --> 00:13:58,505 It was, it was laughable. 350 00:13:58,625 --> 00:14:00,985 I mean, it was, you know, you have Matt leave 351 00:14:00,985 --> 00:14:03,065 and other people literally doing whole, 352 00:14:03,065 --> 00:14:06,545 like five minute sets on this, like fake eye injury. 353 00:14:06,885 --> 00:14:08,225 But literally the, but, 354 00:14:08,225 --> 00:14:09,865 but then if you look at the UCLA protest, 355 00:14:09,865 --> 00:14:12,265 they're firing ro they're literally firing 356 00:14:12,545 --> 00:14:13,865 fireworks into an encampment. 357 00:14:13,925 --> 00:14:15,105 Mm-Hmm. . I mean, you can die. 358 00:14:15,105 --> 00:14:16,385 That's, that could be lethal violence. 359 00:14:16,605 --> 00:14:18,705 And then in New York City, you had a, a police officer 360 00:14:19,595 --> 00:14:22,385 shoot a, a round like fire their weapon 361 00:14:23,015 --> 00:14:24,025 into the air, I think. 362 00:14:24,485 --> 00:14:26,225 And, and that was, I mean, in my opinion, 363 00:14:26,225 --> 00:14:29,225 those were the two most violent events in the past month 364 00:14:29,245 --> 00:14:30,945 or two on these college campuses. 365 00:14:31,485 --> 00:14:33,265 And so the violence is being directed 366 00:14:33,265 --> 00:14:35,425 and perpetrated against the protestors. 367 00:14:35,425 --> 00:14:38,905 It's not being perpetrated by the protestors. So, Mm-Hmm. 368 00:14:38,945 --> 00:14:41,145 , I think the narrative, I mean, 369 00:14:41,345 --> 00:14:44,105 I think it was Maggie Husan who said, uh, uh, uh, something 370 00:14:44,105 --> 00:14:47,705 to the effect of he's never seen the mainstream media. 371 00:14:48,555 --> 00:14:49,555 Misre 372 00:14:56,545 --> 00:14:57,635 - Lost you Guinea for a second. 373 00:14:57,635 --> 00:14:59,275 Hopefully you're coming right back. There we go. 374 00:14:59,275 --> 00:15:00,435 Misrepresent. Go ahead. 375 00:15:01,295 --> 00:15:03,675 - So I, he, he said, I don't think I've, 376 00:15:03,675 --> 00:15:06,275 in my entire history as a journalist, um, 377 00:15:08,925 --> 00:15:11,365 - , they really don't 378 00:15:11,365 --> 00:15:12,405 want us having this conversation. 379 00:15:12,405 --> 00:15:15,325 Zachary, I think that keep cutting in and out. What 380 00:15:15,325 --> 00:15:16,165 - Is going on? Yeah. 381 00:15:16,275 --> 00:15:18,885 - It's mis so never seen something 382 00:15:18,885 --> 00:15:20,525 so misrepresented, I think is where you were. 383 00:15:20,825 --> 00:15:23,005 - That's exactly right. I mean, you literally have the, 384 00:15:23,005 --> 00:15:24,605 the New York Times, the Washington Post 385 00:15:24,605 --> 00:15:25,885 publishing kind of both sides. 386 00:15:25,915 --> 00:15:27,845 Some stories as there were clashes on campus, 387 00:15:27,855 --> 00:15:29,045 there weren't clashes. 388 00:15:29,095 --> 00:15:30,965 There were peaceful protestors that were attacked 389 00:15:31,305 --> 00:15:32,845 by people waving Israeli flags. 390 00:15:32,875 --> 00:15:35,045 That is what happened. And to both sides, 391 00:15:35,325 --> 00:15:37,485 this is just honestly so egregious. 392 00:15:37,585 --> 00:15:39,885 Mm-Hmm. And, and then when you layer on top of that, 393 00:15:39,895 --> 00:15:41,885 these statements coming out of, uh, 394 00:15:42,105 --> 00:15:45,485 US congressional officials, uh, the president, uh, um, 395 00:15:45,705 --> 00:15:47,325 all the mainstream media outlets, 396 00:15:47,515 --> 00:15:49,685 it's anti-Semitism on ga on campuses. 397 00:15:50,005 --> 00:15:51,245 I mean, it's honestly just fiction. 398 00:15:51,835 --> 00:15:53,605 It's just absolute fiction. 399 00:15:54,185 --> 00:15:57,005 All of the reporting I've seen from the actual campuses 400 00:15:57,005 --> 00:15:58,965 themselves, you're looking at peaceful, 401 00:15:59,065 --> 00:16:01,125 overwhelmingly pe peaceful people. 402 00:16:01,465 --> 00:16:04,685 Se you know, serving food, having a health clinic set up, 403 00:16:04,785 --> 00:16:08,805 having a library set up, you know, peaceful students, uh, 404 00:16:08,825 --> 00:16:10,285 um, just protesting a genocide 405 00:16:10,285 --> 00:16:13,525 that is like 99.9% of what you have. 406 00:16:14,065 --> 00:16:17,605 - Yep. And I can't tell if you stopped 407 00:16:17,605 --> 00:16:18,725 there or not 'cause it cut out again. 408 00:16:18,725 --> 00:16:20,565 But I'll jump in really quickly and I'll just point out 409 00:16:20,565 --> 00:16:22,125 that the important thing I think as well 410 00:16:22,385 --> 00:16:23,805 as I'm sure you would agree with, is 411 00:16:23,805 --> 00:16:26,685 that there were a huge representation in some cases, 412 00:16:26,745 --> 00:16:27,965 the majority, 'cause they were put on 413 00:16:28,145 --> 00:16:29,365 by Jewish organizations, 414 00:16:29,625 --> 00:16:32,525 but a Jewish population within these protests, as well 415 00:16:32,525 --> 00:16:34,565 as Holocaust survivors being a part of it, 416 00:16:34,565 --> 00:16:36,365 which doesn't have to mean any one thing or the other. 417 00:16:36,385 --> 00:16:39,445 It just simply means, you can't call it anti-Jewish 418 00:16:39,445 --> 00:16:40,805 or whatever the ridiculous 419 00:16:40,805 --> 00:16:42,125 narrative they throw over the top of this. 420 00:16:42,305 --> 00:16:44,485 And to your point about the protesters that I, 421 00:16:44,525 --> 00:16:46,725 I saw actually more than one example of a person 422 00:16:46,745 --> 00:16:47,805 who pretended to like, 423 00:16:47,805 --> 00:16:49,685 bump his head against a flag and act like he got hit. 424 00:16:49,685 --> 00:16:53,045 And then a GA woman who claimed she was stabbed in the eye 425 00:16:53,225 --> 00:16:55,005 and took that all the way to Congress. 426 00:16:55,145 --> 00:16:56,565 Not, that wasn't why she was there, 427 00:16:56,705 --> 00:16:57,965 but stood there in front of Congress 428 00:16:57,965 --> 00:17:00,125 with not even a blemish saying she was stabbed in the eye, 429 00:17:00,125 --> 00:17:01,645 which took place like two days before that. 430 00:17:01,865 --> 00:17:04,565 You know, it's in the larger picture that we've proven it, 431 00:17:04,565 --> 00:17:06,765 it's, and I I'll say first that I have no doubt 432 00:17:07,195 --> 00:17:10,285 that there is some element out there who are on the side of, 433 00:17:10,285 --> 00:17:12,725 of whatever you wanna call it, pro uh, anti genocide 434 00:17:12,725 --> 00:17:15,485 or pro-Palestinian, who might say things that are taken 435 00:17:15,505 --> 00:17:17,685 to be racist or might have opinions we don't agree with. 436 00:17:17,945 --> 00:17:19,045 But it's by 437 00:17:19,045 --> 00:17:21,445 and large been shown to be aggressively not just 438 00:17:21,445 --> 00:17:23,485 misrepresented, but flat out lied about. 439 00:17:23,535 --> 00:17:25,365 Which my point is always, if you have 440 00:17:25,365 --> 00:17:27,725 to lie about all these things, it's at the very least not 441 00:17:27,725 --> 00:17:29,245 to the level that they're claiming it is. 442 00:17:29,245 --> 00:17:31,525 Right. And I've seen endless provable examples. 443 00:17:31,605 --> 00:17:33,645 I think Stef and Congress just got called out 444 00:17:33,645 --> 00:17:36,485 by the investigator in an open session where they, 445 00:17:36,485 --> 00:17:37,485 she said they were marching 446 00:17:37,485 --> 00:17:38,965 through the halls, screaming, kill all the Jews. 447 00:17:38,985 --> 00:17:40,765 And he said, that's un unequivocally false. 448 00:17:40,865 --> 00:17:43,125 We prove that wasn't true. And you just keep seeing these 449 00:17:43,125 --> 00:17:45,205 narrative floated by people with that kind of power. 450 00:17:45,465 --> 00:17:46,965 That's just, that's terrifying to me. 451 00:17:46,985 --> 00:17:49,415 You know, if you, you wanna comment on that? Go ahead. 452 00:17:49,565 --> 00:17:51,655 - Well, I would just say there are people making 453 00:17:51,685 --> 00:17:52,975 genocidal statements all the time. 454 00:17:52,975 --> 00:17:54,375 Mm-Hmm. , they're the people that are back, 455 00:17:54,565 --> 00:17:57,015 that are backed and supported by the Biden administration. 456 00:17:57,185 --> 00:17:58,535 Right. Okay. Those are the people 457 00:17:58,595 --> 00:18:01,095 who are spewing genocidal rhetoric, not the protestors. 458 00:18:01,435 --> 00:18:05,375 You had be Morich Israel's finance minister, just, uh, 459 00:18:05,515 --> 00:18:08,575 say last week he made another Amalek comment. 460 00:18:08,635 --> 00:18:09,895 The Amalek being the people, 461 00:18:09,995 --> 00:18:12,855 the Biblical Israelites were commanded by God 462 00:18:13,235 --> 00:18:15,935 to annihilate every man, every woman, and every child. 463 00:18:16,595 --> 00:18:19,255 And he is repeating this rhetoric in May 464 00:18:19,435 --> 00:18:21,015 and seven months into a genocide, 465 00:18:21,155 --> 00:18:22,215 the same Israeli government 466 00:18:22,325 --> 00:18:25,535 that the United States has been supporting, uh, for decades 467 00:18:25,955 --> 00:18:28,575 and continues to support and continues to ship arms too. 468 00:18:28,995 --> 00:18:31,855 Um, you know, maybe there's been a single pause in weapons 469 00:18:32,135 --> 00:18:35,255 shipments, but basically support has remained unabated. 470 00:18:35,515 --> 00:18:37,135 Mm-Hmm. . And so that, those are the people 471 00:18:37,135 --> 00:18:39,375 spewing genocide, um, not the students. 472 00:18:39,795 --> 00:18:41,655 Um, and, and you know, to, to the extent there 473 00:18:41,655 --> 00:18:43,935 that there is an, an occasional chant here 474 00:18:43,955 --> 00:18:45,335 or there, I mean, 475 00:18:45,675 --> 00:18:47,815 if you wanna talk about like inappropriate chance 476 00:18:47,835 --> 00:18:49,055 or inappropriate symbols, 477 00:18:49,395 --> 00:18:51,975 the Israeli flag is an apartheid flag, 478 00:18:52,665 --> 00:18:53,665 - Right? 479 00:18:53,665 --> 00:18:56,495 - Every major human rights organization, human rights watch, 480 00:18:56,645 --> 00:19:00,695 amnesty International, the United Nations, Alem, 481 00:19:00,905 --> 00:19:02,055 thank you for pulling that up. 482 00:19:02,605 --> 00:19:06,655 They've all published, this is a 250 page report 483 00:19:07,415 --> 00:19:10,135 documenting, there's, there's no debate. 484 00:19:10,315 --> 00:19:11,655 The point being, there's no debate. 485 00:19:12,015 --> 00:19:13,455 Israel's an apartheid state. 486 00:19:13,675 --> 00:19:16,015 And so if you wave an Israeli flag, 487 00:19:16,035 --> 00:19:17,895 you are waving an apartheid flag that is a symbol 488 00:19:17,895 --> 00:19:19,095 of state supported violence. 489 00:19:19,675 --> 00:19:22,655 And now also prob probable plausible genocide. 490 00:19:23,125 --> 00:19:25,295 When you wave an Israeli flag, you're waving the flag 491 00:19:25,295 --> 00:19:27,815 of a state that is plausibly carrying out a genocide 492 00:19:27,815 --> 00:19:28,935 according to the I cj. 493 00:19:28,935 --> 00:19:31,815 But somehow that is an okay symbol to be waving. Right, 494 00:19:32,145 --> 00:19:33,145 - Right. 495 00:19:33,145 --> 00:19:34,735 Well, and even to the, the point you made about Amalek, 496 00:19:34,735 --> 00:19:38,815 this is the wild part, to me that's so, uh, so much hubris. 497 00:19:38,855 --> 00:19:40,775 I mean, there's, I'm sure there's better words to call it, 498 00:19:40,775 --> 00:19:44,495 but that, so you have the ICJ openly acknowledging that 499 00:19:44,675 --> 00:19:46,895 as a central part of why the intent was there. 500 00:19:46,895 --> 00:19:49,575 Right. The Netanyahu referencing Amalek, 501 00:19:49,755 --> 00:19:51,615 and then they just casually more than once, 502 00:19:51,635 --> 00:19:52,975 by the way, keep referencing it. 503 00:19:53,005 --> 00:19:54,415 Like, that's just sticking your nose up 504 00:19:54,415 --> 00:19:56,455 to the whole process, you know, they're watching, you know, 505 00:19:56,455 --> 00:19:58,735 and it's, it's a, it's a level of on, 506 00:19:58,735 --> 00:20:00,055 they know they're not gonna be held 507 00:20:00,055 --> 00:20:01,255 accountable, or at least they believe that. 508 00:20:01,275 --> 00:20:03,575 And I, I hopefully think that's changing. But you're right. 509 00:20:03,575 --> 00:20:04,575 And I, and this is what's 510 00:20:04,575 --> 00:20:07,735 so interesting about the labeling things like free Palestine 511 00:20:07,735 --> 00:20:09,535 as wink, wink, they mean kill all the Jews. 512 00:20:09,645 --> 00:20:11,015 It's simply not real. 513 00:20:11,355 --> 00:20:13,615 Now, maybe that's there, maybe one of them thinks 514 00:20:13,615 --> 00:20:15,295 that maybe all of it, the point is you guys don't know 515 00:20:15,295 --> 00:20:18,015 that they're making these broad overlap assumptions, 516 00:20:18,235 --> 00:20:19,855 and that's not what real journalism is. 517 00:20:19,855 --> 00:20:21,095 And I think this is really about trying 518 00:20:21,095 --> 00:20:22,215 to frame the entire thing. 519 00:20:22,395 --> 00:20:24,615 And I wanted to bring this into one 520 00:20:24,615 --> 00:20:25,935 of your, o you a few points. 521 00:20:25,935 --> 00:20:27,095 You were highlighting you kind 522 00:20:27,095 --> 00:20:28,535 of something you put in a while ago, 523 00:20:28,535 --> 00:20:30,455 but I wanted to go through some of these historical points. 524 00:20:30,755 --> 00:20:32,815 You highlighted discussion around the history 525 00:20:32,815 --> 00:20:34,015 of peaceful resistance. 526 00:20:34,055 --> 00:20:35,895 I think we touched on this before, but I wanted you 527 00:20:35,895 --> 00:20:37,855 to go ahead and give me your background on that, 528 00:20:37,885 --> 00:20:40,655 because I think it's really important one to understand 529 00:20:40,805 --> 00:20:44,935 that, I mean, repeatedly, well, up into current times there, 530 00:20:45,075 --> 00:20:46,895 the Palestinian resistance has tried 531 00:20:47,100 --> 00:20:49,365 with like the PDS movement, for example, to go 532 00:20:49,365 --> 00:20:50,925 through the channels they were driven into, 533 00:20:50,925 --> 00:20:53,125 even though they have a legal right to arm resistance 534 00:20:53,125 --> 00:20:54,325 through the, for Geneva Convention, 535 00:20:54,705 --> 00:20:56,845 and yet it gets framed as violent every time. 536 00:20:56,985 --> 00:20:59,285 And so go through that, that history in the beginning of, 537 00:20:59,305 --> 00:21:01,725 uh, the original Naba, where it was predominantly, I think, 538 00:21:01,965 --> 00:21:03,565 entirely peaceful until they got driven there. 539 00:21:03,825 --> 00:21:05,645 And what that means all the way to this day, 540 00:21:06,605 --> 00:21:08,165 - I, I wonder if we can actually start with the present, 541 00:21:08,235 --> 00:21:09,765 move back, because I think the present 542 00:21:09,765 --> 00:21:10,925 stuff is the most relevant. 543 00:21:11,145 --> 00:21:15,645 But basically in the weeks prior to October 7th, there was 544 00:21:16,165 --> 00:21:18,285 a, a, a nonviolent protest movement 545 00:21:18,435 --> 00:21:20,405 that had been gaining steam in the Gaza Strip. 546 00:21:20,855 --> 00:21:23,405 There were hundreds of Palestinian protestors. 547 00:21:23,785 --> 00:21:26,005 And I don't even think I tweeted this in, in that thread. 548 00:21:26,125 --> 00:21:27,245 I I wasn't even aware of this. 549 00:21:27,245 --> 00:21:29,125 And I'm someone who was following stuff pretty closely. 550 00:21:29,475 --> 00:21:30,845 This was not well reported on. 551 00:21:30,985 --> 00:21:33,965 You had a, you know, a a, a few articles in 9 7 2 552 00:21:34,685 --> 00:21:36,165 SI don't think publish anything about them. 553 00:21:36,725 --> 00:21:38,285 I no mainstream media in the West had 554 00:21:38,285 --> 00:21:39,685 published anything about these protests. 555 00:21:39,865 --> 00:21:41,805 But you were talking about hundreds 556 00:21:41,805 --> 00:21:45,205 of Palestinians unarmed Palestinians, unaffiliated 557 00:21:45,275 --> 00:21:49,915 with any group marching to the wall, um, and, 558 00:21:49,975 --> 00:21:52,115 and demanding the right, demanding the right of return, 559 00:21:52,115 --> 00:21:55,035 demanding to the blockade in the weeks prior to, uh, 560 00:21:55,035 --> 00:21:56,155 uh, to October 7th. 561 00:21:56,225 --> 00:21:57,915 What was the response of the Israeli military 562 00:21:58,585 --> 00:21:59,715 violent crackdown? 563 00:21:59,855 --> 00:22:02,795 As always, I, I don't even o obviously you already know the 564 00:22:02,795 --> 00:22:05,075 answer to that question because Israel responds to, 565 00:22:05,095 --> 00:22:06,275 to every protest movement, 566 00:22:06,375 --> 00:22:08,315 to every Palestinian protest movement, violent 567 00:22:08,375 --> 00:22:09,995 or nonviolent, exactly the same way. 568 00:22:10,025 --> 00:22:11,875 It's violence. That is the response. 569 00:22:18,495 --> 00:22:20,745 - Lost you again. There we go. Go ahead. I 570 00:22:20,745 --> 00:22:21,825 - Don't know what, so, 571 00:22:22,565 --> 00:22:25,345 so they kill all these protestors in Gaza, um, 572 00:22:25,645 --> 00:22:27,785 in the West Bank on October 5th. 573 00:22:27,785 --> 00:22:29,785 Guess what happened on October 5th in the West Bank? 574 00:22:30,245 --> 00:22:34,025 You had a, a a, um, you had basically a pogrom in Jura. 575 00:22:34,325 --> 00:22:37,265 You have Israeli settlers violently attacking Palestinians 576 00:22:37,445 --> 00:22:39,105 who are do, who are just living their lives. 577 00:22:39,605 --> 00:22:41,505 Um, but, but kind of backing up a bit, 578 00:22:41,535 --> 00:22:45,135 when you're talking about non-violent protest movements, you 579 00:22:45,135 --> 00:22:47,695 of course have the 2018 to 19, uh, 580 00:22:47,695 --> 00:22:48,815 uh, March of the Living protest. 581 00:22:48,905 --> 00:22:51,455 Right. Um, which, which, which preceded these, 582 00:22:51,455 --> 00:22:53,375 these September, uh, there you go. 583 00:22:53,505 --> 00:22:56,695 Which preceded these September, uh, uh, 2023 protests. 584 00:22:56,695 --> 00:22:58,135 But for a period of 21 months, 585 00:23:01,865 --> 00:23:03,025 - I 586 00:23:06,655 --> 00:23:08,595 - For those watching you, you all remember 587 00:23:08,595 --> 00:23:10,275 how this happens when we're, you know, go ahead. 588 00:23:10,555 --> 00:23:11,995 I was trying to fill the space , 589 00:23:12,475 --> 00:23:13,475 - I, I don't know what to say. 590 00:23:13,495 --> 00:23:16,115 My internet is just spazzing out right now. . 591 00:23:18,075 --> 00:23:19,075 - I mean, we're, we're very used 592 00:23:19,075 --> 00:23:20,115 to this at this point, right. 593 00:23:20,195 --> 00:23:22,155 I mean, you know, I, I deal with the same thing on my end 594 00:23:22,155 --> 00:23:24,315 where there's no discernible reason. 595 00:23:24,315 --> 00:23:25,755 There should be any disconnect. 596 00:23:25,755 --> 00:23:27,955 And yet it continues to happen. So no worries. 597 00:23:28,015 --> 00:23:29,635 My audience is well aware. Well, well familiar 598 00:23:29,635 --> 00:23:30,715 with it. Go ahead, . 599 00:23:31,255 --> 00:23:34,515 - So, for a period of about 21 months in 2018 600 00:23:34,515 --> 00:23:38,155 and 19, you have Palestinians marching to the wall. 601 00:23:40,045 --> 00:23:42,105 Oh my God. What is going on? 602 00:23:42,225 --> 00:23:43,945 - I still, I still got you. Go ahead. Okay. 603 00:23:44,085 --> 00:23:46,845 - You've got Palestinians marching to the wall every week, 604 00:23:46,845 --> 00:23:49,685 every Friday for 21 months, demanding the rate 605 00:23:49,685 --> 00:23:51,725 of return demanding an end to the blockade. 606 00:23:51,725 --> 00:23:55,285 What it Israel to, in response, it slaughtered 221 607 00:23:55,285 --> 00:23:56,765 of those protestors, 60 608 00:23:56,785 --> 00:23:59,365 of them were murdered on a single day, on, uh, 609 00:23:59,365 --> 00:24:02,405 on May 14th, 2018, the same day 610 00:24:02,405 --> 00:24:05,325 that the United States was celebrating Israel's illegal, 611 00:24:05,325 --> 00:24:08,085 illegal annexation of East Jerusalem, uh, uh, 612 00:24:08,105 --> 00:24:10,765 by moving the US Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. 613 00:24:11,275 --> 00:24:13,205 Okay. So on that same day, 614 00:24:13,305 --> 00:24:16,565 you have Israel Max slaughtering Palestinians in the dozens. 615 00:24:16,995 --> 00:24:18,925 Over the course of that entire 21 month period, 616 00:24:19,065 --> 00:24:22,925 6,100 Palestinians experienced life-changing wounds. 617 00:24:23,105 --> 00:24:24,565 And do you know how many Israeli soldiers 618 00:24:24,625 --> 00:24:26,925 and Israeli civilians were killed in response? 619 00:24:27,915 --> 00:24:29,725 Zero. Do you know how many Israeli soldiers 620 00:24:29,785 --> 00:24:32,085 or Israeli civilians were injured in response? 621 00:24:32,875 --> 00:24:35,205 Zero. It was a non-violent protest movement. 622 00:24:35,385 --> 00:24:36,645 And what did Israel do in response? 623 00:24:37,145 --> 00:24:39,885 It mass murdered everyone protesting medics, 624 00:24:39,955 --> 00:24:41,045 journalists, kids. 625 00:24:41,345 --> 00:24:43,885 It made no difference to Israel, any resistance 626 00:24:43,885 --> 00:24:46,725 to Israeli rule, any resistance to Israeli occupation 627 00:24:46,725 --> 00:24:48,485 and apartheid and siege is met 628 00:24:48,485 --> 00:24:50,085 with the exact same lethal force. 629 00:24:50,505 --> 00:24:52,725 And so, and, and that's 2018 to 2019. 630 00:24:53,115 --> 00:24:56,565 Then you brought up the, the BDS movement founded by Omari, 631 00:24:56,965 --> 00:24:58,325 a Palestinian from East Jerusalem, 632 00:24:59,315 --> 00:25:01,255 who launched this movement in 2005. 633 00:25:01,755 --> 00:25:03,575 Um, and has been gaining steam ever since. 634 00:25:03,675 --> 00:25:05,695 And I think we're finally seeing the tipping point now, 635 00:25:05,695 --> 00:25:08,095 where now you have colleges for the first time, 636 00:25:08,175 --> 00:25:10,015 I believe a college and university declared its intent 637 00:25:10,015 --> 00:25:12,375 to divest from companies profiting off Israel's 638 00:25:12,375 --> 00:25:13,535 genocide, 2024. 639 00:25:13,795 --> 00:25:14,895 So it took 19 years, 640 00:25:15,355 --> 00:25:17,895 but it finally happened on a college campus at least. 641 00:25:17,895 --> 00:25:20,855 But we've seen churches, uh, uh, we, we, we've seen mosques. 642 00:25:20,855 --> 00:25:24,295 We've seen other institutions embrace this call to boycott 643 00:25:24,295 --> 00:25:26,735 and, and, and, and divest, um, and sanction Israel. 644 00:25:26,995 --> 00:25:29,375 But this is, I think the, the Israel that we've known 645 00:25:29,675 --> 00:25:32,615 for the past 75 years is not the Israel that we are gonna, 646 00:25:32,675 --> 00:25:34,375 uh, uh, uh, know for the next 75 years. 647 00:25:34,565 --> 00:25:36,735 This is the beginning of the end of Israel as we know it. 648 00:25:36,735 --> 00:25:37,775 Right, right. We're gonna see. 649 00:25:37,995 --> 00:25:39,055 So anyways, you have the, and, 650 00:25:39,055 --> 00:25:41,895 and what did, what did Israel do, uh, to Omar Bari, 651 00:25:42,565 --> 00:25:45,695 they threatened to strip away his residency permit. 652 00:25:46,285 --> 00:25:47,975 Basically, they threatened to deport him. 653 00:25:48,555 --> 00:25:51,375 So if you say, listen, we, we, we, the, 654 00:25:51,515 --> 00:25:52,775 if you look at the BDS website, 655 00:25:52,775 --> 00:25:55,855 it's basically a website dedicated talking all. 656 00:25:59,125 --> 00:26:00,815 - I'll just fill in while you're, while you're coming back 657 00:26:00,835 --> 00:26:02,815 to nonviolent solutions 658 00:26:02,835 --> 00:26:05,415 and responses to aggressive actions. Go ahead. 659 00:26:06,125 --> 00:26:08,455 - Yeah. So it's, you know, you have the BDS movement 660 00:26:08,845 --> 00:26:10,415 that has been embraced, nonviolence, 661 00:26:10,735 --> 00:26:12,495 embraced international law for 20 years. 662 00:26:13,075 --> 00:26:14,075 Um, and 663 00:26:17,255 --> 00:26:18,745 - This is a fun little game, I guess we'll play 664 00:26:19,005 --> 00:26:21,105 and continuing to be attacked for . 665 00:26:22,255 --> 00:26:23,465 It's so incredible that we have 666 00:26:23,465 --> 00:26:24,585 to deal with this, but we'll, 667 00:26:24,585 --> 00:26:25,585 - We'll get, do you deal with this? 668 00:26:25,585 --> 00:26:26,625 Do, is this my internet? 669 00:26:26,625 --> 00:26:29,905 Because my, I thought my internet was fine. I, I, i is the, 670 00:26:30,525 --> 00:26:32,425 - It probably is, uh, trust me, I, it's, 671 00:26:32,425 --> 00:26:34,185 it's not something we're all used to the gremlins 672 00:26:34,185 --> 00:26:36,865 and the machine, but, you know, it's, it's, it's interesting 673 00:26:36,865 --> 00:26:38,425 to me that it's so consistent right now. 674 00:26:38,765 --> 00:26:40,865 Uh, it could just be, you know, random occurrence, 675 00:26:40,925 --> 00:26:41,945 but it seems to be certain times. 676 00:26:41,965 --> 00:26:43,645 But you know, the Go ahead. BDS movement, 677 00:26:43,645 --> 00:26:44,725 nonviolent, go ahead. 678 00:26:45,035 --> 00:26:47,245 - Yeah, so, I mean, so that, that's the BDS movement. 679 00:26:47,285 --> 00:26:50,125 I, and I think going back even further, I mean, I think the, 680 00:26:50,355 --> 00:26:52,285 what triggered the, the conflict, 681 00:26:52,425 --> 00:26:54,605 the way it has evolved over the past three, 682 00:26:54,605 --> 00:26:56,885 four decades was the first ada, the first uprising, 683 00:26:56,885 --> 00:26:58,805 which was, again, overwhelmingly non-violent. 684 00:26:59,025 --> 00:27:02,205 The first year of the first ada, you had, um, 685 00:27:02,305 --> 00:27:04,725 the Israeli army, uh, enter the Gaza Strip, 686 00:27:04,785 --> 00:27:07,125 and they slaughtered 142 Palestinians. 687 00:27:07,425 --> 00:27:08,645 And in response, the people 688 00:27:08,645 --> 00:27:12,605 of Gaza killed exactly zero Israelis, zero Israeli soldiers, 689 00:27:12,665 --> 00:27:14,085 and zero Israeli civilians, 690 00:27:14,085 --> 00:27:15,845 because it was a non-violent revolt. 691 00:27:15,845 --> 00:27:18,685 Certainly initially it was, but then of course, at, because 692 00:27:21,185 --> 00:27:24,935 - Right, because they continued to kill and maim and rape 693 00:27:24,935 --> 00:27:27,135 and pillage, it drove them to respond in kind. 694 00:27:27,135 --> 00:27:28,495 And I think that's important. Go ahead. 695 00:27:29,115 --> 00:27:32,255 - So in response to Israel's brutality, guess what happened? 696 00:27:32,255 --> 00:27:34,255 Well, violence breeds violence, right? Mm-Hmm. 697 00:27:34,295 --> 00:27:35,495 Palestinians started to pick up arms. 698 00:27:35,555 --> 00:27:38,975 And that, in my view at least, explains the transition, um, 699 00:27:39,075 --> 00:27:40,895 at least Hamas' transition, uh, 700 00:27:40,895 --> 00:27:42,975 from a charity organization to a militant group. 701 00:27:43,515 --> 00:27:45,695 It was, and that has been the case, I think, 702 00:27:45,695 --> 00:27:47,615 every time Hamas began to embrace violence 703 00:27:47,755 --> 00:27:49,095 to an even greater extent, right? 704 00:27:49,095 --> 00:27:50,855 First in the charter on paper, 705 00:27:51,155 --> 00:27:53,535 and then in their first attack on Israeli soldiers in all. 706 00:27:55,885 --> 00:27:57,055 - Yeah. The charter is 707 00:27:57,055 --> 00:27:58,215 something I definitely wanna talk about. 708 00:27:58,355 --> 00:27:59,975 And, and Hamas origin in general, 709 00:28:00,285 --> 00:28:02,615 because I think that's an important, uh, overlap 710 00:28:02,635 --> 00:28:04,135 to what's being used today. Go ahead. 711 00:28:04,555 --> 00:28:06,455 - So, so, so, - By the way, just so you know, I'm trying 712 00:28:06,455 --> 00:28:08,295 to fill in after it cuts out with things. 713 00:28:08,325 --> 00:28:10,295 It's so don't, don't feel like I'm cutting you off. 714 00:28:10,295 --> 00:28:11,375 If you hear me. Go ahead. This is very, 715 00:28:11,605 --> 00:28:12,605 - This is very strange. 716 00:28:12,655 --> 00:28:14,975 Honestly, I, I don't know what to say. I, I'm deeply ap. 717 00:28:15,195 --> 00:28:16,495 I'm so, so sorry for this. 718 00:28:16,675 --> 00:28:20,175 But, but basically you have, so, so Hamas, essentially, 719 00:28:20,175 --> 00:28:22,295 it's a gradual transition to violence, you know? 720 00:28:22,295 --> 00:28:23,455 Mm-Hmm. , uh, first it's a charity 721 00:28:23,455 --> 00:28:25,695 organization, then they embrace violence on paper, 722 00:28:25,845 --> 00:28:27,535 then they carry it to first attack on an 723 00:28:27,535 --> 00:28:28,735 Israeli military target. 724 00:28:28,925 --> 00:28:30,495 Then they attack civilians. 725 00:28:30,515 --> 00:28:33,015 And then it's not until after 94 when they start carrying 726 00:28:33,015 --> 00:28:34,095 out these suicide bombings 727 00:28:34,095 --> 00:28:36,215 and killing lots of Israeli civilians, but, 728 00:28:36,215 --> 00:28:37,735 but it's a very gradual transition. 729 00:28:37,755 --> 00:28:39,575 And at every point in that transition, guess 730 00:28:39,575 --> 00:28:40,655 what pushes them further 731 00:28:40,715 --> 00:28:42,055 and further in the direction of violence. 732 00:28:42,125 --> 00:28:43,255 Well, you already know the answer. 733 00:28:43,845 --> 00:28:47,575 It's Israel's gruesome violence, usually against civilians, 734 00:28:47,675 --> 00:28:50,055 almost always, and then usually against children. 735 00:28:51,085 --> 00:28:52,945 And, and, and so, you know, I, 736 00:28:52,985 --> 00:28:55,105 I just think when Israel does not really realize 737 00:28:55,135 --> 00:28:56,145 what it's doing right now, 738 00:28:56,145 --> 00:28:58,345 if it thinks it's making itself safe, let me, 739 00:28:58,345 --> 00:28:59,985 let me explain, give you another example. 740 00:29:00,365 --> 00:29:03,025 In the West Bank, uh, on the eve of October 7th. 741 00:29:06,255 --> 00:29:07,835 - And Phil, in general, though, I, I would argue, 742 00:29:07,955 --> 00:29:10,275 I don't think they think they're making themselves safe. 743 00:29:10,355 --> 00:29:12,915 I argue it's about trying to create the justification to 744 00:29:13,625 --> 00:29:15,595 explain its existence in the idea 745 00:29:15,675 --> 00:29:16,995 of protecting the Jewish population. 746 00:29:16,995 --> 00:29:17,995 Please continue. 747 00:29:18,735 --> 00:29:20,595 - So, I, I'm kind of shifting gears a little bit, 748 00:29:20,595 --> 00:29:21,635 moving away from non-violence, 749 00:29:21,855 --> 00:29:24,875 but just to sort of round out the, the, the, the point here 750 00:29:25,145 --> 00:29:26,595 that violence breeds violence. 751 00:29:26,775 --> 00:29:28,275 Mm-Hmm. . And I think when you realize that, 752 00:29:28,295 --> 00:29:29,475 you kind of understand the trajectory 753 00:29:29,475 --> 00:29:31,915 of the Israel-Palestine question, which is, you know, 754 00:29:32,745 --> 00:29:35,115 Zionism is of movement to create a Jewish land, 755 00:29:35,435 --> 00:29:37,555 a Jewish state in a land that is non-Jewish. 756 00:29:43,030 --> 00:29:45,595 - I'll let you finish. Interested where you're going 757 00:29:47,715 --> 00:29:49,215 in a land that's non-Jewish, go ahead. 758 00:29:49,425 --> 00:29:51,055 - There. There's one and only one way 759 00:29:51,055 --> 00:29:53,735 to build a Jewish state in a land that is 90% non-Jewish. 760 00:29:53,735 --> 00:29:54,775 Right. You have 761 00:29:54,775 --> 00:29:57,655 to evict the non-Jewish inhabitants to create the Jewish state. 762 00:29:57,705 --> 00:29:59,895 Right. And, and what we've seen over the past 75 years is 763 00:29:59,895 --> 00:30:04,335 that, um, that has basically been Israel's kinda long-term 764 00:30:04,775 --> 00:30:07,455 strategy of, of, of, of establishing a Jewish state. 765 00:30:07,455 --> 00:30:08,575 That's what they did in 48. 766 00:30:08,755 --> 00:30:09,855 And then when they, uh, uh, 767 00:30:10,045 --> 00:30:12,175 conquered the West Bank Gaza in 67, 768 00:30:12,445 --> 00:30:15,615 they expelled 200,000 Palestinians from the West Bank Gaza 769 00:30:15,915 --> 00:30:17,215 in 67, 68. 770 00:30:17,215 --> 00:30:19,975 They ex, they, they, they compelled another 60 771 00:30:20,035 --> 00:30:22,455 to 90,000 Palestinians to leave in those first few years 772 00:30:22,455 --> 00:30:23,695 after the occupied Gaza. 773 00:30:24,115 --> 00:30:26,575 Um, and then they've stripped the residency permits 774 00:30:26,575 --> 00:30:28,255 of 15,000 Palestinians in East Jerusalem. 775 00:30:28,565 --> 00:30:31,215 They, they've threatened the, uh, uh, residency status 776 00:30:31,275 --> 00:30:33,455 of tens of thousands of Palestinian, uh, 777 00:30:33,775 --> 00:30:35,815 Palestinians in the West Bank, who are basically, 778 00:30:35,815 --> 00:30:38,455 either they're from Gaza originally, um, and, or, 779 00:30:38,455 --> 00:30:41,375 or their spouses of, of West Bank Palestinians from abroad, 780 00:30:41,675 --> 00:30:44,775 or older children, um, of, of, of parents, one 781 00:30:44,775 --> 00:30:46,775 of whom is not, uh, uh, not a West Bank Palestinian. 782 00:30:47,035 --> 00:30:48,535 Um, it's basically, they froze the 783 00:30:48,535 --> 00:30:49,895 population registry in 2000. 784 00:30:49,895 --> 00:30:51,135 So they have all these, and then 785 00:30:51,135 --> 00:30:52,335 there's the home demolition policy. 786 00:30:52,595 --> 00:30:54,055 Um, Mm-Hmm. , there's the ethnic cleansing 787 00:30:54,055 --> 00:30:56,935 operations in Los Sa, fta and Hamsa, and, um, and, 788 00:30:57,035 --> 00:30:58,215 and Han Hamad. 789 00:30:58,435 --> 00:31:00,175 Um, and, and, and, and E one, 790 00:31:03,135 --> 00:31:04,985 - Well, since you're cutting out again, I'll bring this up 791 00:31:04,985 --> 00:31:07,265 that you were highlighting, uh, 792 00:31:07,265 --> 00:31:08,665 the d the demolition in general. 793 00:31:08,825 --> 00:31:10,105 I have that somewhere I was gonna show, 794 00:31:10,455 --> 00:31:12,865 this is nothing screams only democracy in Middle East, 795 00:31:12,865 --> 00:31:14,145 like demolishing an entire village 796 00:31:14,145 --> 00:31:15,545 because the inhabitants have committed the crime 797 00:31:15,545 --> 00:31:16,985 of being the native inhabitants of the region. 798 00:31:17,825 --> 00:31:19,585 I don't know if you're back or not. Okay, go ahead, . 799 00:31:20,695 --> 00:31:23,025 - Yeah. And then they do the same in Israel proper, too. 800 00:31:23,025 --> 00:31:25,385 It doesn't even, and, and this is why people may chant 801 00:31:25,385 --> 00:31:26,505 from the river to the sea, right? 802 00:31:26,505 --> 00:31:29,425 Because it's, it's in Gaza, uh, it's in the West Bank, 803 00:31:29,425 --> 00:31:31,625 and it's in Israel proper, where as you just pointed out, 804 00:31:31,695 --> 00:31:34,825 they're demolishing, you know, uh, uh, entire villages. 805 00:31:35,285 --> 00:31:39,345 So this is part of Israel's long-term plan, which is, 806 00:31:39,605 --> 00:31:41,465 you know, we wanna, this state is for Jews, 807 00:31:41,535 --> 00:31:43,665 it's all about Jewish prosperity and Jewish development, 808 00:31:43,665 --> 00:31:44,985 and Jewish safety and Jewish security. 809 00:31:45,325 --> 00:31:47,305 And in a world where you prioritize Jews 810 00:31:47,305 --> 00:31:49,425 above everyone else, well eventually, 811 00:31:49,805 --> 00:31:53,025 if you get enough resistance, then you just wind up 812 00:31:53,665 --> 00:31:55,345 carrying out a genocide, which is what we've seen. 813 00:31:56,085 --> 00:31:58,715 - Right? Right. And I did don't think I pulled it up. 814 00:31:58,715 --> 00:31:59,955 I'll, I'll show this in a minute. This is 815 00:31:59,955 --> 00:32:01,875 what I was highlighting that you posted before. 816 00:32:02,055 --> 00:32:04,315 And to make your point that you highlighted what's 817 00:32:04,515 --> 00:32:07,275 interestingly seems to get disputed by everybody 818 00:32:07,275 --> 00:32:10,115 unless you show these articles, is that this is the reality 819 00:32:10,115 --> 00:32:11,155 of the, of, and, and obvious 820 00:32:11,155 --> 00:32:12,275 shalom is called this out as well. 821 00:32:12,335 --> 00:32:15,475 The reality of the nation state law that I thought, 822 00:32:15,475 --> 00:32:17,875 and I think this is an important, uh, overlap, 823 00:32:17,875 --> 00:32:19,355 because what we were looking at here for the, 824 00:32:19,375 --> 00:32:22,635 for those in the podcast is a TV star who stood up 825 00:32:22,635 --> 00:32:23,995 to defend this saying, no, no, no, no, 826 00:32:24,115 --> 00:32:25,675 A Arabs are equal citizens. 827 00:32:25,735 --> 00:32:28,915 And Netanyahu bucked that he actually, he made a point 828 00:32:28,915 --> 00:32:31,595 to say no and quote Israel's the nation state 829 00:32:31,595 --> 00:32:33,515 of the Jews alone, to make your point very clear. 830 00:32:33,815 --> 00:32:35,475 So you just can't ignore what 831 00:32:35,475 --> 00:32:37,395 that ethnonationalist mindset is showing us. 832 00:32:37,395 --> 00:32:39,285 You know, it's very, it's very, very clear. Yeah. 833 00:32:39,285 --> 00:32:41,285 Now, I, I'd like to talk about the history 834 00:32:41,395 --> 00:32:43,565 that you highlighted there of Hamas 835 00:32:43,565 --> 00:32:45,325 and how that part has been used in all of this, 836 00:32:45,355 --> 00:32:48,005 because it's, it's very interesting the time of all this. 837 00:32:48,025 --> 00:32:52,205 And I'd like your thoughts on, you know, if ever you feel 838 00:32:52,205 --> 00:32:54,445 that Hamas was not what it appeared to be like, 839 00:32:54,445 --> 00:32:56,285 if it started as something that wasn't necessarily 840 00:32:56,285 --> 00:32:57,885 what it looked like, or if there, 841 00:32:57,885 --> 00:33:00,085 if there was a point at which it became compromised 842 00:33:00,185 --> 00:33:02,965 and was controlled by Israel, somebody else, when that was, 843 00:33:03,305 --> 00:33:04,845 you know, and kind of gimme your thoughts on that. 844 00:33:05,005 --> 00:33:06,005 'cause we know for, as a fact 845 00:33:06,005 --> 00:33:07,645 that there was funding going on at some 846 00:33:07,645 --> 00:33:08,925 point coming from Israel. 847 00:33:09,105 --> 00:33:11,005 And so explain that for the average viewer. 848 00:33:11,005 --> 00:33:12,205 Like, what is Sammas in that context? 849 00:33:12,275 --> 00:33:15,445 When did it start and, you know, how do you see it being 850 00:33:16,235 --> 00:33:18,005 used by Israel in the timeframe? 851 00:33:19,275 --> 00:33:22,925 - Yeah. So in the, in, in the 1980s, uh, Israel funded 852 00:33:23,025 --> 00:33:25,645 and supported the organization that later became known 853 00:33:25,645 --> 00:33:27,165 as Hamas at the time, it was known as, 854 00:33:31,325 --> 00:33:32,325 - Since you cut out there. 855 00:33:32,325 --> 00:33:33,475 That's interesting, because, you know, we're, 856 00:33:33,475 --> 00:33:36,555 what we're talking about is the funding from like 2019. 857 00:33:36,655 --> 00:33:37,835 Oh, sorry. I just think that's it. 858 00:33:37,835 --> 00:33:41,035 What I was saying, it's interesting that 2 20, 19 80, 859 00:33:41,575 --> 00:33:44,515 before it was that, like the idea that you could argue to 860 00:33:44,515 --> 00:33:46,755 that point, and I wouldn't have cut you off if you didn't 861 00:33:46,755 --> 00:33:48,515 cut out there, , is that, is 862 00:33:48,515 --> 00:33:51,355 that it was created in a sense by Israel, was 863 00:33:51,355 --> 00:33:52,795 that the idea that it became Hamas? 864 00:33:52,795 --> 00:33:54,355 And was that part of the design? Go ahead. 865 00:33:54,825 --> 00:33:58,115 - Well, if you look at the statements made 866 00:33:58,115 --> 00:34:00,115 by the Israeli officials in charge of that policy 867 00:34:00,175 --> 00:34:01,595 of supporting and funding Hamas, 868 00:34:01,595 --> 00:34:03,875 they came out in interviews in the early two thousands 869 00:34:03,875 --> 00:34:05,635 saying, Hamas is a creature of Israel. 870 00:34:05,635 --> 00:34:07,155 Mm-Hmm. , those are their words, not mine. 871 00:34:07,525 --> 00:34:09,435 Right. Um, so, because at the time, 872 00:34:09,565 --> 00:34:10,915 Hamas was a relatively small, 873 00:34:10,915 --> 00:34:12,755 relatively underfunded organization 874 00:34:13,225 --> 00:34:15,755 that basically operated some, you know, they, 875 00:34:15,825 --> 00:34:19,715 they were dedicated to Islamic preaching and charity work, 876 00:34:19,935 --> 00:34:21,435 and they built health clinics 877 00:34:21,575 --> 00:34:23,475 and they supported orphanages, right? 878 00:34:23,475 --> 00:34:25,315 They, it was a charity organization. 879 00:34:25,815 --> 00:34:27,995 Um, and, and so it just, and it was apolitical, 880 00:34:28,215 --> 00:34:30,035 but basically because it got all this support 881 00:34:30,035 --> 00:34:32,155 and funding from, from the Israeli government is able 882 00:34:32,155 --> 00:34:35,715 to expand and build these networks all around Gaza, 883 00:34:35,715 --> 00:34:37,075 all around the West Bank. Um, 884 00:34:37,095 --> 00:34:38,435 - So, so right there, right there. 885 00:34:38,495 --> 00:34:42,595 Do you think that that was a moment that then either by, 886 00:34:42,655 --> 00:34:43,995 by like a byproduct or 887 00:34:44,015 --> 00:34:46,715 by design turned them into something else in your mind? 888 00:34:47,825 --> 00:34:49,435 - Well, look, the reason they were funded 889 00:34:49,495 --> 00:34:51,515 and supported by the state of Israel was only 890 00:34:51,755 --> 00:34:54,515 to Israel's longstanding policy of divide and conquer. 891 00:34:54,515 --> 00:34:56,515 Right? Right. This is a classic colonial strategy. 892 00:34:56,575 --> 00:34:59,755 We all know if our adversaries, in this case, the natives, 893 00:34:59,755 --> 00:35:02,155 if the natives are divided, uh, rather than united, 894 00:35:02,155 --> 00:35:03,355 they're easier to defeat. 895 00:35:03,695 --> 00:35:06,235 And, and that was exactly Israel's strategy with Hamas. 896 00:35:06,375 --> 00:35:09,635 The belief was p the PLO was our main adversary. 897 00:35:09,815 --> 00:35:12,995 The PLO based in exile, right at the time was based, 898 00:35:12,995 --> 00:35:15,395 you know, first in Jordan, then Lebanon, um, 899 00:35:15,665 --> 00:35:18,555 then it got expelled to, to, to, uh, Tunisia. 900 00:35:18,815 --> 00:35:22,435 But basically the, the, the plan was, Hey, let's, um, let, 901 00:35:22,645 --> 00:35:24,395 let's, let's create a rival. 902 00:35:25,015 --> 00:35:26,835 And this wasn't the first time Israel tried to do that. 903 00:35:26,835 --> 00:35:29,675 Right? They tried to do that already in the 1970s 904 00:35:29,675 --> 00:35:32,435 with the village leagues as that these are not well known. 905 00:35:32,495 --> 00:35:35,035 But again, you had basically municipal elections throughout 906 00:35:35,035 --> 00:35:36,515 the, uh, occupied territories. 907 00:35:37,105 --> 00:35:39,765 And in 1976, the overwhelming majority, 908 00:35:39,765 --> 00:35:42,525 something like two thirds, uh, uh, of the mayors 909 00:35:42,825 --> 00:35:45,845 and three quarters of the municipal council seats, uh, um, 910 00:35:45,955 --> 00:35:48,005 went to candidates who were pro PLO. 911 00:35:48,545 --> 00:35:49,805 And, and, and, and so Israel 912 00:35:49,825 --> 00:35:51,045 was like, oh my God, what are we gonna do? 913 00:35:51,045 --> 00:35:52,365 Like, right. Turns out, 914 00:35:52,365 --> 00:35:53,445 the Palestinians in the occupied 915 00:35:53,605 --> 00:35:54,685 territories also wanna be free. 916 00:35:55,305 --> 00:35:57,525 Uh, they also wanna be able to vote for the government 917 00:35:57,525 --> 00:35:58,525 that controls their lives. 918 00:35:58,795 --> 00:36:01,165 They also wanna have freedom of movement. Wow. 919 00:36:01,195 --> 00:36:03,845 What do you know? And so what, so what did Israel do? 920 00:36:03,845 --> 00:36:07,205 We establish these village leagues to try to undermine the, 921 00:36:07,265 --> 00:36:10,245 the, the, the, the democratically elected candidates, right? 922 00:36:10,245 --> 00:36:11,405 Mm-Hmm. , these village leagues were 923 00:36:11,405 --> 00:36:12,525 not democratically elected. 924 00:36:12,755 --> 00:36:15,325 They were appointed by the Israeli military. Right. 925 00:36:15,425 --> 00:36:16,485 And, and what happened. And so, 926 00:36:16,505 --> 00:36:18,565 and so Israel took the same approach with Hamas. 927 00:36:18,825 --> 00:36:20,645 It was, Hey, let's, um, you know, 928 00:36:20,895 --> 00:36:23,885 let's fund this organization to try and undercut the PLO. 929 00:36:24,265 --> 00:36:25,885 And we all know where that ended up. 930 00:36:26,385 --> 00:36:29,205 Um, uh, uh, but, but yeah, go ahead. Well, 931 00:36:29,205 --> 00:36:30,205 - Just to that point right there, then, 932 00:36:30,345 --> 00:36:33,325 do you think in your, you know, either, well, 933 00:36:33,325 --> 00:36:35,085 just in your opinion, do you think the election 934 00:36:35,085 --> 00:36:37,445 that they always point to was a legitimate election? 935 00:36:37,445 --> 00:36:39,845 Because I quite frankly, find it really hard to believe 936 00:36:39,845 --> 00:36:41,005 that they would've allowed a group 937 00:36:41,005 --> 00:36:43,245 that they were already framing as terrorists to just, 938 00:36:43,585 --> 00:36:45,285 you know, roll the dice and see if they're allowed 939 00:36:45,285 --> 00:36:46,405 to be elected, even though they then 940 00:36:46,405 --> 00:36:48,405 took action afterward because of it. How do you read that? 941 00:36:48,875 --> 00:36:50,765 - It's a very good question. I think I, 942 00:36:50,845 --> 00:36:52,805 I don't necessarily think Israel wanted 943 00:36:52,805 --> 00:36:54,405 to see those, those elections. 944 00:36:54,405 --> 00:36:56,205 There was a lot of pressure from the 945 00:36:56,205 --> 00:36:57,285 Bush administration at the time. 946 00:36:57,285 --> 00:36:59,565 You'll recall, this is 2000, uh, 947 00:36:59,565 --> 00:37:01,325 January, 2006, the elections were held. 948 00:37:01,785 --> 00:37:03,325 And in the, in the, in the previous year 949 00:37:03,325 --> 00:37:06,205 or two, the Bush administration, you know, had gone on this, 950 00:37:06,205 --> 00:37:08,645 you know, democracy, rah rah, we're, 951 00:37:08,655 --> 00:37:09,725 we're gonna spread democracy. 952 00:37:10,015 --> 00:37:13,285 We're gonna, you know, overthrow the regime in Iraq we're, 953 00:37:13,285 --> 00:37:15,405 and then they were planning on going to Iran next. 954 00:37:15,405 --> 00:37:17,205 Right? There were all this, we're gonna overthrow the, 955 00:37:17,385 --> 00:37:18,405 you know, um, the, the, 956 00:37:18,465 --> 00:37:20,325 the regime in Afghanistan we're gonna bring 957 00:37:20,325 --> 00:37:21,485 democracy to the Middle East, right? 958 00:37:21,485 --> 00:37:23,325 That, that was basically the Bush doctrine. 959 00:37:23,625 --> 00:37:26,165 Um, and so they tried to do that in Gaza 960 00:37:26,165 --> 00:37:28,005 and in the West Bank as well, like democracy. 961 00:37:28,005 --> 00:37:28,885 Mm-Hmm. . And so they were 962 00:37:28,885 --> 00:37:29,765 the biggest advocates. 963 00:37:29,765 --> 00:37:32,325 It was actually Bush and then Secretary of State, 964 00:37:32,325 --> 00:37:34,765 Condoleezza Rice pressuring, uh, Israel, 965 00:37:34,825 --> 00:37:36,725 and the Palestinian Authority pressuring them both, 966 00:37:37,075 --> 00:37:38,925 that there needs to be elections held in 967 00:37:38,925 --> 00:37:40,085 the Palestinian Territories. 968 00:37:40,665 --> 00:37:42,205 And what do you know, guess what? 969 00:37:42,205 --> 00:37:45,685 The, it, it was Hamas, the organization that, um, was known 970 00:37:45,825 --> 00:37:48,845 to be an organization of the people they were known to be, 971 00:37:48,945 --> 00:37:52,245 uh, um, you know, upstanding, uh, uh, uh, you know, they, 972 00:37:52,245 --> 00:37:53,485 they were a charity organization. 973 00:37:53,955 --> 00:37:56,365 They were basically thought to be basically, you know, 974 00:37:56,485 --> 00:37:58,045 a morally upstanding people. 975 00:37:58,195 --> 00:38:00,885 Whereas Fatah, um, the organization 976 00:38:00,885 --> 00:38:03,005 that had been in power led by first Yes. 977 00:38:03,285 --> 00:38:04,525 , and then mah Abba 978 00:38:04,525 --> 00:38:06,005 after Fed's passing, 979 00:38:06,435 --> 00:38:08,405 that organization was perceived to be corrupt. 980 00:38:08,775 --> 00:38:12,005 Right. That it, there was an internal PA investigation in 981 00:38:12,005 --> 00:38:15,605 the, in 1997 that that determined that the one third 982 00:38:15,625 --> 00:38:17,165 of the budget was just embezzled. 983 00:38:17,165 --> 00:38:18,965 It just disappeared. Right? 984 00:38:18,965 --> 00:38:22,005 And, and that was an internal PA investigation, right? 985 00:38:22,005 --> 00:38:25,325 Like, so, so that, that organization was deeply corrupt. 986 00:38:25,345 --> 00:38:26,525 Mm-Hmm. , Yaser pha 987 00:38:26,585 --> 00:38:28,165 and his cronies were deeply corrupt. 988 00:38:28,315 --> 00:38:30,085 They were also just bad at governing. Right? 989 00:38:30,085 --> 00:38:32,725 This was an organization that was essentially, you know, um, 990 00:38:32,845 --> 00:38:35,285 a kind of a gorilla organization for its entire history. 991 00:38:35,545 --> 00:38:37,725 And now it's trying to, uh, you know, operate a, a sort 992 00:38:37,725 --> 00:38:39,805 of a pseudo government, you know, managing, 993 00:38:39,915 --> 00:38:40,965 it's a completely different, 994 00:38:41,845 --> 00:38:44,285 carrying out gorilla attacks is a different thing than 995 00:38:44,285 --> 00:38:46,005 operating institutions of a government. 996 00:38:46,055 --> 00:38:47,165 Right. Those are very different. 997 00:38:47,165 --> 00:38:49,445 It turns out they weren't that good at the latter. Mm-Hmm. 998 00:38:49,485 --> 00:38:50,925 , uh, you know, and, and, and, 999 00:38:50,925 --> 00:38:52,325 and there was no attempt to share power, 1000 00:38:52,425 --> 00:38:54,525 air effect concentrated all the power in his hands. 1001 00:38:54,865 --> 00:38:57,845 So that, so, so the, so the PA voice, of course, I mean, 1002 00:38:57,885 --> 00:39:00,645 I think had there been any due diligence done on the part 1003 00:39:00,645 --> 00:39:02,765 of the United States, on the part of Israel, 1004 00:39:02,955 --> 00:39:05,565 they would've known that Hamas was obviously gonna win. 1005 00:39:05,745 --> 00:39:07,765 Now, let's be fair, there wasn't an, 1006 00:39:07,765 --> 00:39:08,965 it wasn't a sweeping victory. 1007 00:39:09,395 --> 00:39:13,525 They won 44% of the vote as compared to 41% 1008 00:39:13,555 --> 00:39:14,565 that fought won. 1009 00:39:14,865 --> 00:39:16,885 So it was a relative, I mean, it was, you know, that 1010 00:39:16,885 --> 00:39:18,045 that's still a clear win. 1011 00:39:18,145 --> 00:39:20,085 Mm-Hmm. , but it was a relatively close vote, 1012 00:39:20,225 --> 00:39:22,005 and they didn't win a majority of the votes. 1013 00:39:22,005 --> 00:39:23,565 They won a plurality. Right. Right. 1014 00:39:23,565 --> 00:39:26,085 Um, so, uh, you know, I would say that, you know, 1015 00:39:26,085 --> 00:39:28,685 Israel probably probably would not 1016 00:39:28,685 --> 00:39:29,725 have supported those elections, right. 1017 00:39:29,725 --> 00:39:33,665 Because Israel's policy towards Hamas has long been, 1018 00:39:34,165 --> 00:39:36,025 we don't recognize Hamas' Right. 1019 00:39:36,025 --> 00:39:39,175 To exist. Right. You know, they have, 1020 00:39:39,915 --> 00:39:40,915 - Go ahead. 1021 00:39:40,915 --> 00:39:42,255 - Yeah. Well, we don't recognize Hamas' Right. To exist. 1022 00:39:42,255 --> 00:39:44,695 That was the attitude in the early nineties when they 1023 00:39:44,695 --> 00:39:47,175 export, they, they deported 400 Hamas officials. 1024 00:39:47,485 --> 00:39:48,735 That was the attitude right. 1025 00:39:48,835 --> 00:39:50,055 In, in 2005, 1026 00:39:50,275 --> 00:39:52,815 in 2006 when they won the election, obviously in 2007. 1027 00:39:52,875 --> 00:39:55,575 And it is the same attitude to this day with the stated goal 1028 00:39:55,575 --> 00:39:58,415 of the operation in Gaza today being to eradicate Hamas. 1029 00:39:58,415 --> 00:39:59,855 Right. Well, we'll, we'll see how that goes. 1030 00:39:59,995 --> 00:40:01,775 But, um, that has long been Israel's policy. 1031 00:40:02,605 --> 00:40:04,505 - And, and, uh, this is the reason I ask this, 1032 00:40:04,505 --> 00:40:06,785 because the timing, and I'm sure you've seen this, we, 1033 00:40:06,785 --> 00:40:08,105 we bring this up constantly just 1034 00:40:08,185 --> 00:40:09,825 because it's still interestingly disputed, 1035 00:40:09,965 --> 00:40:11,345 but even arrest citing this, 1036 00:40:11,525 --> 00:40:13,465 or a clip that I play often showing B, 1037 00:40:13,525 --> 00:40:15,585 former Prime Minister Barak saying the same, 1038 00:40:15,835 --> 00:40:17,825 which is a quote from 2019, 1039 00:40:18,255 --> 00:40:19,585 just simply highlighting the fact 1040 00:40:19,585 --> 00:40:22,345 that they were refunding them in order to keep them divided. 1041 00:40:22,435 --> 00:40:25,665 Right. So, at that time, do you think that that was part of 1042 00:40:25,665 --> 00:40:28,065 that plan, seeing as how, you know, like even to this day, 1043 00:40:28,065 --> 00:40:30,785 Robert in Lke who writes for TA has highlighted 1044 00:40:30,845 --> 00:40:33,625 how the PA is simply just kind of like this bully arm 1045 00:40:33,645 --> 00:40:35,345 of the Israeli state that the, like, 1046 00:40:35,345 --> 00:40:37,665 even the most Palestinian people seem to regard it that way. 1047 00:40:38,005 --> 00:40:40,865 So do you think that this was a part of that at the time 1048 00:40:40,935 --> 00:40:42,745 that this was, as I think they highlight, 1049 00:40:42,745 --> 00:40:45,345 they just gave them suitcases full of cash in order 1050 00:40:45,385 --> 00:40:46,985 to make sure that they essentially kept divided. 1051 00:40:47,045 --> 00:40:49,425 You know, it's, you think that played role Good? 1052 00:40:49,735 --> 00:40:53,025 - It's a good question. When exactly this attitude came 1053 00:40:53,085 --> 00:40:55,025 to infiltrate and ultimately dominate. 1054 00:40:55,205 --> 00:40:57,105 Mm-Hmm, , the Likud part, the Likud party, 1055 00:40:57,165 --> 00:40:59,865 and most of the Israeli mainstream, I would say, um, 1056 00:40:59,965 --> 00:41:01,985 was it in 2006 already? 1057 00:41:02,165 --> 00:41:05,705 Was it not until 2009, was it not until 2016, 17. 1058 00:41:06,125 --> 00:41:07,665 It, it, it is my understanding 1059 00:41:07,665 --> 00:41:09,425 that the first public statements made to 1060 00:41:09,425 --> 00:41:11,985 that effect were made by be Morich. 1061 00:41:12,205 --> 00:41:16,105 He tweeted in 2017, um, anyone who, uh, 1062 00:41:16,215 --> 00:41:18,345 opposes the two state solution should support Hamas. 1063 00:41:18,345 --> 00:41:19,745 Right? Mm-Hmm. , um, uh, uh, 1064 00:41:19,885 --> 00:41:22,985 and then net, who said the same thing in that in 2019? 1065 00:41:23,485 --> 00:41:24,825 Um, the question is 1066 00:41:24,825 --> 00:41:26,265 how long were they already thinking that? 1067 00:41:26,315 --> 00:41:29,465 Right. And I think the answer is certainly, you know, 1068 00:41:29,925 --> 00:41:32,665 the early 2010s, I would say at least, uh, 1069 00:41:32,665 --> 00:41:36,365 because remember, like Hamas, I think in the 2008, 2009 war, 1070 00:41:36,665 --> 00:41:39,445 Israel had this belief that they could maybe 1071 00:41:40,185 --> 00:41:42,125 really like overthrow Hamas 1072 00:41:42,125 --> 00:41:43,845 or mi I think the woods' belief, 1073 00:41:43,865 --> 00:41:45,165 at least in the initial period, 1074 00:41:45,365 --> 00:41:47,805 'cause that was in 2008, in December, 2008, 1075 00:41:48,145 --> 00:41:50,485 Israel carried out a surprise attack on Gaza. 1076 00:41:50,765 --> 00:41:53,125 I think that's why such a great parallel to October 7th, 1077 00:41:53,355 --> 00:41:55,005 because in the preceding month, 1078 00:41:55,585 --> 00:41:58,285 Israel was basically pretending to wanna restart a, a, 1079 00:41:58,325 --> 00:42:00,885 a ceasefire with, uh, with, with Hamas, right? 1080 00:42:00,885 --> 00:42:03,445 Because recall, they signed a ceasefire agreement on 1081 00:42:03,445 --> 00:42:07,345 June 19th, uh, 2008, that ceasefire agreement. 1082 00:42:07,605 --> 00:42:10,505 And, and the agreement was Hamas would stop firing rockets, 1083 00:42:10,805 --> 00:42:12,785 um, and Israel would loosen the siege. 1084 00:42:13,405 --> 00:42:15,345 Uh, you saw a 90, oh, between June 1085 00:42:15,405 --> 00:42:16,705 and November, 2008, 1086 00:42:16,705 --> 00:42:20,025 you saw a 97% reduction in the number of rockets fired. 1087 00:42:20,205 --> 00:42:22,745 So you could say basically, Hamas lived up to its end 1088 00:42:22,745 --> 00:42:23,785 of the bargain, right? 1089 00:42:23,785 --> 00:42:25,265 But you saw essentially no movement, 1090 00:42:25,645 --> 00:42:26,905 um, on loosening the siege. 1091 00:42:26,905 --> 00:42:28,545 It, it, Israel just didn't do it. 1092 00:42:29,125 --> 00:42:30,625 And then what happened was, in, 1093 00:42:30,805 --> 00:42:33,025 in November, 2008, what did Israel do? 1094 00:42:33,245 --> 00:42:34,305 It broke the ceasefire. 1095 00:42:34,605 --> 00:42:37,065 It invaded ga the Gaza strip with its ground forces 1096 00:42:37,485 --> 00:42:38,985 and killed something like 10, uh, 1097 00:42:39,145 --> 00:42:40,185 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. 1098 00:42:40,685 --> 00:42:43,865 And then there was talks from November to December 1099 00:42:44,095 --> 00:42:45,145 between Hamas 1100 00:42:45,145 --> 00:42:47,785 and Israel, where they were basically negotiations 1101 00:42:47,805 --> 00:42:49,505 to restart that ceasefire agreement. 1102 00:42:49,925 --> 00:42:52,825 But Israel was just, uh, uh, was just, it was a facade. 1103 00:42:52,885 --> 00:42:54,385 Mm-Hmm. Israel was just faking it. 1104 00:42:54,685 --> 00:42:56,985 It secretly, they were planning a ground invasion, 1105 00:42:57,315 --> 00:42:59,545 which is exactly what they did in late dec in, 1106 00:42:59,545 --> 00:43:00,785 in December of 2008. 1107 00:43:00,995 --> 00:43:02,145 Again, with the stated goal, 1108 00:43:02,145 --> 00:43:03,945 I think the plan, why was it a surprise? 1109 00:43:03,945 --> 00:43:06,385 Is that 'cause they really wanted to, um, you know, 1110 00:43:06,385 --> 00:43:08,025 they wanted to try and eliminate Hamas. 1111 00:43:08,025 --> 00:43:10,385 And there were statements made at the time by Ahu, 1112 00:43:10,685 --> 00:43:13,625 by then Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, that we, 1113 00:43:13,885 --> 00:43:16,625 we will eradicate Hamas, we will destroy Hamas. 1114 00:43:17,085 --> 00:43:19,265 Um, and, and then I think what happened at some point 1115 00:43:19,265 --> 00:43:21,785 after that, I think especially once in Netanyahu came 1116 00:43:21,785 --> 00:43:25,825 to power in 2009, was that the attitude shifted was, okay, 1117 00:43:25,965 --> 00:43:27,945 um, we can't defeat Hamas. 1118 00:43:27,945 --> 00:43:30,705 That's, that's just not really possible. Mm-Hmm. 1119 00:43:30,745 --> 00:43:33,985 . Um, but there's, there's a side benefit of, 1120 00:43:34,095 --> 00:43:35,345 okay, so we can't defeat them, 1121 00:43:35,685 --> 00:43:37,745 but there's another benefit to having them in power, 1122 00:43:37,915 --> 00:43:40,025 which is that, well, we don't have 1123 00:43:40,025 --> 00:43:41,665 to even pretend to negotiate. 1124 00:43:41,665 --> 00:43:44,065 We just say, well, how can we negotiate with terrorists? 1125 00:43:44,195 --> 00:43:45,985 Right? How can we negotiate when the s 1126 00:43:45,985 --> 00:43:47,105 are themselves divided? 1127 00:43:48,025 --> 00:43:49,925 You know, we have no, there's no negotiating partner, 1128 00:43:49,925 --> 00:43:51,125 there's no partner for peace. 1129 00:43:51,425 --> 00:43:53,485 And so we can continue to expand our settlements, 1130 00:43:53,785 --> 00:43:56,285 we can continue to expand occupation infrastructure, 1131 00:43:56,625 --> 00:43:58,205 we can build more apartheid roads, 1132 00:43:58,345 --> 00:44:00,365 we can take away more Palestinian water. 1133 00:44:00,705 --> 00:44:02,205 Um, and that was the plan now that, 1134 00:44:02,205 --> 00:44:03,805 that has basically been Israel's approach 1135 00:44:03,805 --> 00:44:05,165 for the PA since 2009. 1136 00:44:05,925 --> 00:44:07,205 - Hmm. That's fascinating. 1137 00:44:07,265 --> 00:44:08,285 You know, and there's so many 1138 00:44:08,285 --> 00:44:09,685 overlaps there we could dive into. 1139 00:44:10,005 --> 00:44:12,205 I I, I'd like to ask you two more things about Hamas 1140 00:44:12,205 --> 00:44:13,685 before we move forward, and, 1141 00:44:13,705 --> 00:44:15,165 and one's about the charter in general, 1142 00:44:15,265 --> 00:44:17,885 but going back to the point you made about 94 in the suicide 1143 00:44:17,885 --> 00:44:20,805 bombings, I mean, even just, I hope people don't miss your, 1144 00:44:20,915 --> 00:44:23,125 your very quick but important point about the history 1145 00:44:23,125 --> 00:44:25,485 of nonviolence before this came about. 1146 00:44:25,785 --> 00:44:27,965 But interestingly enough, I've brought this up many times 1147 00:44:28,265 --> 00:44:33,075 and I, I, I have your research on this, probably on, 1148 00:44:33,095 --> 00:44:35,435 you know, compared to others, is gonna be far more than I, 1149 00:44:35,435 --> 00:44:36,795 than than I or anybody else has done. 1150 00:44:36,795 --> 00:44:39,075 And I'm curious about the timing of this, 1151 00:44:39,075 --> 00:44:41,075 and whether you think the idea 1152 00:44:41,135 --> 00:44:42,955 of suicide bombings in general, 1153 00:44:43,095 --> 00:44:45,395 and I'm not gonna dispute that there were suicide bombings 1154 00:44:45,395 --> 00:44:48,195 carried out by, you know, any number of other elements 1155 00:44:48,195 --> 00:44:49,595 or specifically Hamas. 1156 00:44:49,695 --> 00:44:51,915 But do you think there's an interesting overlap of, 1157 00:44:51,935 --> 00:44:54,515 of false flag element there that this could have been done 1158 00:44:54,815 --> 00:44:56,195 to frame, to use, 1159 00:44:56,215 --> 00:44:58,835 to make it look like we're talking about some belligerent, 1160 00:44:59,135 --> 00:45:01,995 you know, Muslim Arab, you know, Palestinian, uh, 1161 00:45:02,515 --> 00:45:05,915 terrorist bombing concept, because I've drawn parallels to 1162 00:45:05,915 --> 00:45:08,715 what you've seen Mossad elements do, or other actions, 1163 00:45:08,935 --> 00:45:10,435 and interestingly that we don't see that 1164 00:45:10,435 --> 00:45:11,835 as common today despite the fact 1165 00:45:11,835 --> 00:45:12,995 that they claim it's worse than ever. 1166 00:45:13,375 --> 00:45:14,595 I'm just curious what you think about that. 1167 00:45:15,745 --> 00:45:17,155 - Yeah, I mean, it's a good question. 1168 00:45:17,275 --> 00:45:21,395 I would say that when thinking about what gave rise to the, 1169 00:45:21,615 --> 00:45:23,955 um, acts of, uh, uh, uh, to, to these, to this violence 1170 00:45:23,975 --> 00:45:27,235 by Hamas, like, we're really talking about a tiny number 1171 00:45:27,235 --> 00:45:28,315 of individuals, right? 1172 00:45:28,315 --> 00:45:29,635 Mm-Hmm. , there was something like, 1173 00:45:29,755 --> 00:45:32,835 I believe 12 suicide attacks between 94 and 2000. 1174 00:45:32,835 --> 00:45:35,555 Right? And even during those, those six years, 1175 00:45:35,975 --> 00:45:37,755 the Israeli military slaughtered three times 1176 00:45:37,775 --> 00:45:40,635 as many Palestinians as the Palestinians killed Israeli. 1177 00:45:40,655 --> 00:45:43,115 So even during this period of time when basically 1178 00:45:43,115 --> 00:45:44,995 for the first time in Palestinian history, 1179 00:45:45,155 --> 00:45:46,875 they're really attacking civilians. 1180 00:45:47,155 --> 00:45:48,995 I mean, we, we didn't go back to the deep origins 1181 00:45:48,995 --> 00:45:52,035 of this conflict, which was basically Palestinians embracing 1182 00:45:52,035 --> 00:45:54,195 non violence almost, you know, uh, uh, 1183 00:45:54,195 --> 00:45:55,315 for, for many, many decades. 1184 00:45:55,575 --> 00:45:56,835 Mm-hmm, . Um, but, 1185 00:45:56,835 --> 00:45:59,155 but yeah, for the first time in, in Palestinian history, 1186 00:45:59,175 --> 00:46:01,195 you see these attacks against these Israeli civilians, 1187 00:46:01,235 --> 00:46:04,875 I would say, um, at least, uh, you know, you know, and, and, 1188 00:46:04,875 --> 00:46:06,995 and the Israeli army just responds with, again, 1189 00:46:06,995 --> 00:46:09,275 gruesome violence in return killing three times 1190 00:46:09,275 --> 00:46:10,595 as many Palestinians, um, 1191 00:46:10,615 --> 00:46:11,995 as the Palestinians killed Israelis. 1192 00:46:12,015 --> 00:46:15,035 But in addition to that, the Palestinian, the Israeli army, 1193 00:46:15,305 --> 00:46:17,675 also, what I would say is they, they did more than that. 1194 00:46:17,785 --> 00:46:18,835 They carried out acts 1195 00:46:18,835 --> 00:46:20,795 of collective punishment against all Palestinians. 1196 00:46:20,795 --> 00:46:22,315 Right? Right. Um, and, and, and, 1197 00:46:22,435 --> 00:46:25,595 and those acts were abso they basically imposed lockdowns 1198 00:46:25,595 --> 00:46:27,115 beginning in the mid nineties, 1199 00:46:27,285 --> 00:46:29,915 these Israeli army goes into the West Bank and Gaza 1200 00:46:30,055 --> 00:46:31,835 and ECTs checkpoints at the entrance 1201 00:46:32,015 --> 00:46:34,955 and exit points, 600 checkpoints at the entrance 1202 00:46:34,955 --> 00:46:36,355 and exit point of every single 1203 00:46:36,355 --> 00:46:37,595 village in Gaza in the West Bank. 1204 00:46:38,415 --> 00:46:42,075 And, and so you have already, in 95, 96, you have, 1205 00:46:42,615 --> 00:46:44,715 you have 10,000 families in the Gaza 1206 00:46:44,715 --> 00:46:45,835 Strip that are going hungry. 1207 00:46:46,615 --> 00:46:50,795 The World Food Program, the w the WFP spins up an emergency 1208 00:46:50,795 --> 00:46:55,115 food operation to deliver food to 10,000 families starving 1209 00:46:55,175 --> 00:46:57,195 to death in Gaza Strip in 1996. 1210 00:46:58,015 --> 00:47:01,475 Wow. You know, so, so Israel impose these lockdowns 1211 00:47:01,475 --> 00:47:02,555 as collective punishment. 1212 00:47:03,405 --> 00:47:04,905 Um, they, again, this is at a time 1213 00:47:04,905 --> 00:47:07,105 during the Oslo process when they're supposed 1214 00:47:07,105 --> 00:47:08,465 to be making, building trust. 1215 00:47:08,475 --> 00:47:11,225 Right. You know, making concessions, transferring over land, 1216 00:47:11,225 --> 00:47:12,785 transferring over authority to the Palestinians. 1217 00:47:12,855 --> 00:47:14,705 Instead they're doing the exact opposite. 1218 00:47:14,705 --> 00:47:16,825 They're eroding trust, uh, uh, they're, 1219 00:47:16,825 --> 00:47:19,865 they're punishing Palestinians who, who carry, who, who, 1220 00:47:19,865 --> 00:47:21,585 who had no nothing to do with any of the violence. 1221 00:47:22,165 --> 00:47:24,465 Um, so I'm not actually sure that's, 1222 00:47:24,615 --> 00:47:26,105 that was the question you asked, but 1223 00:47:26,445 --> 00:47:28,025 - No, no, that it's, it all, all 1224 00:47:28,025 --> 00:47:29,365 of this is fascinating and relevant. 1225 00:47:29,365 --> 00:47:30,925 Like I just, it's so interesting. 1226 00:47:30,925 --> 00:47:32,525 You're just obviously such a wealth of knowledge 1227 00:47:32,525 --> 00:47:33,885 and I hope people will look to your work 1228 00:47:33,905 --> 00:47:35,045 to flesh more, you know? 1229 00:47:35,325 --> 00:47:38,445 'cause it will take now, I mean, days of content 1230 00:47:38,545 --> 00:47:39,805 to get all that, you know, out . 1231 00:47:39,805 --> 00:47:41,165 So it's important to do that. But, 1232 00:47:41,165 --> 00:47:43,045 so really quick point aside before we go forward. 1233 00:47:43,045 --> 00:47:45,005 You said 600 checkpoint, I've talked about this before. 1234 00:47:45,885 --> 00:47:48,445 C first of all, that people just like dispute that, like, 1235 00:47:48,445 --> 00:47:50,765 it, it's because it does seem like an obscene number. 1236 00:47:51,065 --> 00:47:52,685 Can you tell me how many of the, 1237 00:47:52,715 --> 00:47:55,165 that you're talking about 600 in what span of space? 1238 00:47:55,465 --> 00:47:57,205 I'm be able to understand how ridiculous this number 1239 00:47:57,205 --> 00:47:58,325 is? It's, it's just outrageous. 1240 00:47:59,155 --> 00:48:00,445 - Yeah. , that's a great question. 1241 00:48:00,585 --> 00:48:03,245 So we're talking about, it's actually more, 1242 00:48:03,265 --> 00:48:04,845 it was 600 Preoc October 7th. 1243 00:48:05,045 --> 00:48:06,445 I think they've added about another a hundred. 1244 00:48:06,625 --> 00:48:07,845 That's a Beel bet. 1245 00:48:07,845 --> 00:48:09,685 Sell reporting, I think we're close to 700 by now. 1246 00:48:10,025 --> 00:48:12,085 Um, but the 600 checkpoints we're talking about, 1247 00:48:12,085 --> 00:48:14,085 essentially almost all of them in the West Bank. 1248 00:48:14,585 --> 00:48:18,525 Um, wow. So the West Bank, the Israel, you know, um, 1249 00:48:18,585 --> 00:48:20,605 the West Bank is 22% of the size. 1250 00:48:20,625 --> 00:48:23,965 Uh, uh, uh, 22% of, let's say all of historic Palestine. 1251 00:48:24,185 --> 00:48:25,765 Mm-Hmm. , historic Palestine is 1252 00:48:25,765 --> 00:48:26,845 roughly the size of New Jersey. 1253 00:48:27,105 --> 00:48:30,205 Wow. So you take 22% of the size of New Jersey, 1254 00:48:30,425 --> 00:48:34,165 you put 600 checkpoints, now 700 checkpoints in, in, in 1255 00:48:34,165 --> 00:48:35,405 that size of territory. 1256 00:48:35,985 --> 00:48:37,725 - That's just, I mean, that's overwhelming. 1257 00:48:37,905 --> 00:48:40,725 And to think about people to understand, I mean, this is, 1258 00:48:40,945 --> 00:48:43,725 you know, it turn like, like consider like the, 1259 00:48:43,785 --> 00:48:45,845 the food aid process . 1260 00:48:45,955 --> 00:48:47,685 Like right now, when God's said that you're going 1261 00:48:47,685 --> 00:48:50,205 through this long, drawn out process, uh, Robert Insh, 1262 00:48:50,205 --> 00:48:53,325 again, has done great work on highlighting the disregard 1263 00:48:53,345 --> 00:48:54,925 to rights in general, or, 1264 00:48:54,925 --> 00:48:56,285 or, you know, just that people can be waiting 1265 00:48:56,285 --> 00:48:57,325 there for indefinite periods of time. 1266 00:48:57,325 --> 00:48:58,525 They can be arrested for no reason. 1267 00:48:58,675 --> 00:49:00,965 Imagine going through 600 of those in a process. 1268 00:49:01,605 --> 00:49:02,725 I thank you for highlighting that. 1269 00:49:02,765 --> 00:49:05,245 I just find that to be just egregious. It's overwhelming. 1270 00:49:05,365 --> 00:49:06,965 I mean, like all of this truly is, 1271 00:49:07,305 --> 00:49:10,405 but to the charter now, this is an important point 1272 00:49:10,405 --> 00:49:12,285 that we've highlighted before, but the idea that 1273 00:49:12,885 --> 00:49:14,965 historically, the charter originally, 1274 00:49:14,985 --> 00:49:16,565 or maybe you can correct me on that if it's originally 1275 00:49:16,565 --> 00:49:17,845 or not, but the one that people point to, 1276 00:49:17,845 --> 00:49:19,965 the older one highlights, uh, 1277 00:49:19,985 --> 00:49:22,005 an aim at at killing Jewish people. 1278 00:49:22,265 --> 00:49:24,005 Now the, the the other one they, 1279 00:49:24,075 --> 00:49:27,805 they put out makes it explicit about Zionism, about the, 1280 00:49:27,825 --> 00:49:29,885 you know, the, the nuance that I think is important. 1281 00:49:30,035 --> 00:49:32,285 Yeah. So was that the original that they started with and, 1282 00:49:32,345 --> 00:49:33,725 and was that their original mindset? 1283 00:49:33,865 --> 00:49:35,765 Was that a misrepresentation? Go and explain that for me. 1284 00:49:36,515 --> 00:49:37,725 - Yeah, it's a great question. 1285 00:49:37,725 --> 00:49:39,125 You're, you're, you're exactly correct. 1286 00:49:39,265 --> 00:49:42,965 The 2000, um, excuse me, the, the 1988 charter, 1287 00:49:43,065 --> 00:49:45,805 the August, 1988 charter has language in there 1288 00:49:45,805 --> 00:49:48,165 that talks about the, the enemy as the Jews. 1289 00:49:49,065 --> 00:49:51,565 Um, look, Hamas is an Islamist organization, right? 1290 00:49:51,625 --> 00:49:53,965 And so there is language in the Quran, you know, 1291 00:49:53,965 --> 00:49:56,325 talking about the Jews of the enemies, you know, uh, 1292 00:49:56,325 --> 00:49:58,685 kill them when, uh, if they come from a a, you know, the, 1293 00:49:58,685 --> 00:50:00,725 the court, you can find anything you want in the Koran 1294 00:50:00,725 --> 00:50:01,885 and the Haddi and the Sunna. 1295 00:50:01,945 --> 00:50:03,285 You can find very peaceful statements. 1296 00:50:03,285 --> 00:50:05,125 You can find very non peaceful statements. 1297 00:50:05,545 --> 00:50:06,845 Um, and, and some of these, uh, 1298 00:50:07,235 --> 00:50:09,005 - Real quick on that one point though, it could you, 1299 00:50:09,025 --> 00:50:10,885 is there a translation possibility there? 1300 00:50:10,885 --> 00:50:12,605 That's something I've heard argued as well, that that can, 1301 00:50:12,675 --> 00:50:16,325 that the term Jew being translated it, it can mean more 1302 00:50:16,325 --> 00:50:17,485 of a broad thing coming from 1303 00:50:17,485 --> 00:50:18,525 the other language. Is that true? 1304 00:50:19,345 --> 00:50:20,725 - That's a good question. I don't know. 1305 00:50:20,845 --> 00:50:22,885 I, I, I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be able to speak to that. 1306 00:50:22,995 --> 00:50:26,445 Okay. But I, I would definitely say that, um, look, 1307 00:50:26,575 --> 00:50:29,205 Hamas was an Islamic, I mean, is an Islamist organization. 1308 00:50:29,585 --> 00:50:31,605 And so they're borrowing language, um, 1309 00:50:31,965 --> 00:50:34,045 I would say from the Koran and from the Sunna 1310 00:50:34,185 --> 00:50:36,445 and from the Hadith literature, so that, you know, 1311 00:50:36,785 --> 00:50:38,085 and so there is plenty of, 1312 00:50:38,215 --> 00:50:40,805 let's call it anti-Semitic rhetoric in, in, in these texts. 1313 00:50:40,805 --> 00:50:41,765 Mm-Hmm. , by the way, there's also plenty 1314 00:50:41,765 --> 00:50:42,965 of peaceful rhetoric in these texts. 1315 00:50:42,965 --> 00:50:44,965 So it's the same with any, uh, uh, texts. 1316 00:50:44,965 --> 00:50:46,565 Like the Jewish tradition is the same, right? 1317 00:50:46,585 --> 00:50:48,485 You have statements where the Jews are ordered 1318 00:50:48,505 --> 00:50:49,685 to carry out a genocide. 1319 00:50:50,385 --> 00:50:52,165 The God of Israel is a genocidal God, 1320 00:50:52,275 --> 00:50:53,325 just so everyone knows. 1321 00:50:53,625 --> 00:50:55,325 But God is also a peaceful God. 1322 00:50:55,345 --> 00:50:57,045 So you can find whatever you want in 1323 00:50:57,045 --> 00:50:58,285 these religious texts, right? 1324 00:50:58,355 --> 00:51:00,325 Same, same with the Bible. Same with many, right? 1325 00:51:00,325 --> 00:51:02,005 Same thing. Go ahead. Exactly. Exactly. 1326 00:51:02,385 --> 00:51:04,325 Now you're, and then you're absolutely correct. 1327 00:51:04,385 --> 00:51:08,405 In 2017, Hamas amended that, uh, uh, that charter, um, to, 1328 00:51:08,405 --> 00:51:09,925 to say the enemies of of, 1329 00:51:10,385 --> 00:51:12,445 of the Palestinian people are not the Jews of the Zionists. 1330 00:51:12,625 --> 00:51:13,965 Mm-Hmm. . Um, which I would agree with. 1331 00:51:14,065 --> 00:51:15,525 Um, of course, the people 1332 00:51:15,545 --> 00:51:18,285 who are hell bent on taking over your country and, and, 1333 00:51:18,285 --> 00:51:20,205 and making you second class citizens in it. 1334 00:51:20,205 --> 00:51:22,045 And if you don't accept your Sta status 1335 00:51:22,105 --> 00:51:25,245 as a second class citizen, well, you can be deported, 1336 00:51:25,385 --> 00:51:27,285 but those are your, basically, or you can be killed. 1337 00:51:27,545 --> 00:51:29,125 Um, but those are basically your options. 1338 00:51:29,465 --> 00:51:30,645 So obviously, you know, 1339 00:51:30,885 --> 00:51:32,245 Palestinians should be against Zionism. 1340 00:51:32,625 --> 00:51:35,285 Um, but, but, but I would say, look, they, they, long 1341 00:51:35,285 --> 00:51:38,565 before 2017, it was pretty obvious that Hamas, 1342 00:51:38,735 --> 00:51:41,325 there were many, many instances over the previous two 1343 00:51:41,325 --> 00:51:45,285 decades where you have senior level Hamas officials making 1344 00:51:45,355 --> 00:51:47,485 very, like, like overtures that I would describe 1345 00:51:47,505 --> 00:51:50,205 as essentially peace offers extensions of, you know, 1346 00:51:50,205 --> 00:51:52,205 extending an olive branch, but they were all rejected. 1347 00:51:52,205 --> 00:51:53,325 Again, 'cause Israel doesn't 1348 00:51:53,485 --> 00:51:54,645 recognize Hamas' right to exist. 1349 00:51:54,945 --> 00:51:56,845 So obviously they're not gonna recognize any kind 1350 00:51:56,845 --> 00:51:58,685 of overture, a peaceful overture. 1351 00:51:58,775 --> 00:52:00,725 Those came in 2004, 2005. 1352 00:52:00,745 --> 00:52:03,965 You have Hamas talking about a, a 10 year truce hudna, um, 1353 00:52:04,065 --> 00:52:05,805 uh, if Israel agrees to withdraw from the, 1354 00:52:05,805 --> 00:52:06,845 uh, occupied territories. 1355 00:52:07,225 --> 00:52:09,165 Um, and then obviously in 2006 1356 00:52:09,165 --> 00:52:11,205 and seven, you have the statements published, uh, 1357 00:52:11,205 --> 00:52:13,245 articles published in The Guardian, you know, by Inman, 1358 00:52:13,445 --> 00:52:17,485 Hanah by Al basically saying the same thing, 10 truce, um, 1359 00:52:17,765 --> 00:52:19,245 I if you withdraw from the territories. 1360 00:52:19,505 --> 00:52:22,685 So, you know, Hamas had long been open to, to, 1361 00:52:22,745 --> 00:52:24,805 to a peaceful resolution to the conflict. 1362 00:52:24,905 --> 00:52:26,405 Mm-Hmm. , it was Israel 1363 00:52:26,405 --> 00:52:28,845 that had no interest in negotiating with Hamas. 1364 00:52:29,105 --> 00:52:31,565 Why is that? I mean, and, and I think it's worth stating 1365 00:52:31,565 --> 00:52:34,125 there, 'cause I think, uh, someone listening might say, 1366 00:52:34,125 --> 00:52:37,645 well, wait, I thought Israel's all, you know, Israel is, 1367 00:52:37,665 --> 00:52:39,045 you know, is always, you know, 1368 00:52:39,045 --> 00:52:40,245 it's the Palestinians that reject peace. 1369 00:52:40,305 --> 00:52:42,365 Now it's the Israelis who reject peace, 1370 00:52:42,365 --> 00:52:43,605 certainly with Hamas, because why? 1371 00:52:43,605 --> 00:52:45,965 Mm-Hmm. , because Hamas ha you have 1372 00:52:45,965 --> 00:52:47,525 to make real concessions to Hamas. 1373 00:52:47,825 --> 00:52:49,885 You have to actually withdraw. Right? 1374 00:52:49,985 --> 00:52:51,445 You can't, you can't bully Hamas 1375 00:52:51,445 --> 00:52:52,445 around the same way you can bully 1376 00:52:52,445 --> 00:52:54,485 around Fatah and Muhammad Abba. 1377 00:52:55,105 --> 00:52:58,565 And that is what Israel got so accustomed to, is basically, 1378 00:52:58,625 --> 00:53:01,205 um, not an actual partner at the table, 1379 00:53:01,745 --> 00:53:03,485 but someone who was subservient to you. 1380 00:53:03,485 --> 00:53:05,725 Right? Someone who would take orders from you, someone 1381 00:53:05,745 --> 00:53:07,565 who would do your bidding and your dirty work. 1382 00:53:07,625 --> 00:53:09,645 That's what Israel wanted. Israel didn't want a partner. 1383 00:53:09,825 --> 00:53:12,085 Israel certainly didn't want an equal partner, right? Right. 1384 00:53:12,085 --> 00:53:14,125 Because an equal partner, someone you have to like, treat 1385 00:53:14,125 --> 00:53:15,965 with respect and make concessions to. 1386 00:53:16,065 --> 00:53:17,725 And, but that's not what Israel wanted. 1387 00:53:17,985 --> 00:53:21,365 And so Israel had no intention of ever, ever, um, agreeing 1388 00:53:21,365 --> 00:53:22,765 to any of Hamas' demands. 1389 00:53:22,985 --> 00:53:26,765 By the way, Hamas made peace offers in nine June, 1988, even 1390 00:53:26,765 --> 00:53:29,005 before the August, 1988 charter. 1391 00:53:29,005 --> 00:53:32,645 Right? You have Zahar number three in Hamas command, go 1392 00:53:32,645 --> 00:53:34,685 to Tel Aviv in June, 1988. 1393 00:53:34,945 --> 00:53:36,085 He presents a document 1394 00:53:36,105 --> 00:53:38,285 to then Israeli defense minister, it's Rabin. 1395 00:53:38,285 --> 00:53:39,725 He says, if you withdraw from the, 1396 00:53:39,985 --> 00:53:41,005 you don't even have to withdraw. 1397 00:53:41,005 --> 00:53:42,445 You just have to declare your intent 1398 00:53:42,445 --> 00:53:43,685 to withdraw from the territories. 1399 00:53:43,865 --> 00:53:47,425 Wow. And then you have to, um, you have to allow us 1400 00:53:47,425 --> 00:53:49,585 to hold elections, um, you know, 1401 00:53:49,695 --> 00:53:50,985 with no Israeli interference. 1402 00:53:51,295 --> 00:53:52,625 Then we'll have our representatives 1403 00:53:52,625 --> 00:53:53,745 that we can then negotiate with you. 1404 00:53:54,465 --> 00:53:56,585 Hmm. And again, but, but Israel, no interest. 1405 00:53:56,685 --> 00:53:58,065 But again, Israel was, had no intent 1406 00:53:58,125 --> 00:53:59,785 and interest in withdrawing from the territories. 1407 00:53:59,805 --> 00:54:04,145 On the contrary, from 1982 to 1988, in the six years prior 1408 00:54:04,145 --> 00:54:06,865 to this peace offer by Ma Bahamas, um, 1409 00:54:07,005 --> 00:54:08,505 Israel tripled its settlement pop, 1410 00:54:08,645 --> 00:54:09,785 its its settler population, 1411 00:54:10,115 --> 00:54:11,905 - Right? All of which are illegal. 1412 00:54:12,325 --> 00:54:13,665 - All of which are illegal. It wasn't 1413 00:54:13,665 --> 00:54:14,985 gonna withdraw from these territories. 1414 00:54:14,985 --> 00:54:16,145 It wanted to keep up hold of them. 1415 00:54:16,205 --> 00:54:18,385 In fact, it was Dr, it dramatic, 1416 00:54:18,385 --> 00:54:21,585 it was the most rapid expansion in the settlement enterprise 1417 00:54:21,765 --> 00:54:24,745 in the extension of Israeli control over the occupied 1418 00:54:25,025 --> 00:54:26,305 territories since 67. 1419 00:54:26,765 --> 00:54:29,705 So, look, that, that's what I would say here, is 1420 00:54:29,705 --> 00:54:31,025 that actually there have been many, 1421 00:54:31,025 --> 00:54:32,105 many opportunities for peace. 1422 00:54:32,485 --> 00:54:35,145 Um, it's just Israel has no interest in making the 1423 00:54:35,145 --> 00:54:37,225 concessions it would need to make, um, 1424 00:54:37,225 --> 00:54:38,305 right. In order to have peace. 1425 00:54:38,715 --> 00:54:41,665 - Right, right. Well, there's two points I wanna add to this 1426 00:54:41,685 --> 00:54:42,785 and about, I want, 1427 00:54:42,825 --> 00:54:45,225 I want your thoughts on the current ceasefire illusion, 1428 00:54:45,225 --> 00:54:48,865 which I, I think I framed as the Israel ceasefire long con. 1429 00:54:49,045 --> 00:54:51,265 But first I'll, I'll hol highlight one of your tweets 1430 00:54:51,265 --> 00:54:53,585 that it, oh, it kind of, uh, dovetails with 1431 00:54:53,585 --> 00:54:54,865 what we were just discussing about the, 1432 00:54:55,045 --> 00:54:56,265 the charter and the difference. 1433 00:54:56,285 --> 00:54:59,345 And, you know, we could all kind of theorize about why 1434 00:54:59,345 --> 00:55:01,345 that might have shifted if it could have been a, you know, 1435 00:55:01,545 --> 00:55:03,625 a ploy to make you think that they weren't what they are. 1436 00:55:03,625 --> 00:55:05,065 You know, it's all different ways you could look at it. 1437 00:55:05,065 --> 00:55:06,065 But here's an interesting point. 1438 00:55:06,065 --> 00:55:09,185 You write, uh, Hamas did not attack Jews on October 7th, 1439 00:55:09,285 --> 00:55:12,305 nor did Hamas commit an anti-Semitic attack on October 7th. 1440 00:55:12,565 --> 00:55:14,225 On the contrary, Hamas didn't seem 1441 00:55:14,225 --> 00:55:15,905 to care at all about the nationality 1442 00:55:15,905 --> 00:55:16,905 or religion of their victims. 1443 00:55:17,435 --> 00:55:18,585 Hamas Militants Massacre, 1444 00:55:18,585 --> 00:55:20,265 21 Bedouins, none of whom were Jewish. 1445 00:55:20,535 --> 00:55:24,145 They killed Majeed, uh, Ibrahim, A a Palestinian in Israel, 1446 00:55:24,205 --> 00:55:26,145 and five other Palestinians in Israel. 1447 00:55:26,205 --> 00:55:27,625 And you go on to make more examples. 1448 00:55:27,845 --> 00:55:29,865 So can you just flush that up for us and, 1449 00:55:29,865 --> 00:55:32,025 and highlight the contradiction there to the, the claim And, 1450 00:55:32,025 --> 00:55:34,705 and, and I guess, I guess a answer why 1451 00:55:34,705 --> 00:55:36,105 then you think that they're trying to do that? 1452 00:55:36,105 --> 00:55:38,065 Which I think is an obvious answer, but go ahead. 1453 00:55:38,695 --> 00:55:41,305 - Yeah. Well, I, I was triggered by that statement made by, 1454 00:55:41,445 --> 00:55:42,745 it was Biden who said something 1455 00:55:42,805 --> 00:55:44,185 to the effect of ancient hatreds. 1456 00:55:44,265 --> 00:55:47,705 I, I get it. I'm not really, Hamas was founded in 1988. 1457 00:55:47,725 --> 00:55:49,785 If you wanna say the predecessor 1458 00:55:49,785 --> 00:55:53,665 to Hamas was founded in 1973, the mu islami. 1459 00:55:53,685 --> 00:55:55,105 But like either 1973 1460 00:55:55,105 --> 00:55:57,385 or 1988, I don't think anyone referred to either 1461 00:55:57,385 --> 00:55:58,865 of those dates as ancient. 1462 00:55:58,865 --> 00:56:01,145 Right? Right. So what do you mean by ancient? 1463 00:56:01,565 --> 00:56:06,425 You're trying to, I don't know, like , you, 1464 00:56:06,425 --> 00:56:08,105 you, you're trying to basically like imply 1465 00:56:08,105 --> 00:56:09,185 that there's this like, you know, 1466 00:56:09,185 --> 00:56:11,305 centuries if not millennia long hatred 1467 00:56:11,445 --> 00:56:12,785 of Palestinians towards Jews. 1468 00:56:12,935 --> 00:56:14,225 It's, it's disgusting. 1469 00:56:14,335 --> 00:56:16,265 It's, it's anti Palestinian is what it is. 1470 00:56:16,495 --> 00:56:18,785 - It's, well, I think it's more so anti-Muslim and Arab. 1471 00:56:18,785 --> 00:56:21,065 Like, you're trying to really just kind of clump in all 1472 00:56:21,065 --> 00:56:23,125 of this as the same concept, which is what seems to happen. 1473 00:56:23,825 --> 00:56:26,045 - And, and so I, I just think it's worth pointing out that, 1474 00:56:26,045 --> 00:56:28,685 look, I'm not here defending what happened on October 7th, 1475 00:56:28,795 --> 00:56:30,325 what I hear, what I am here saying. 1476 00:56:30,665 --> 00:56:33,005 In fact, I even described it as a massacre in that tweet. 1477 00:56:33,135 --> 00:56:34,725 Right. What I am saying is that, 1478 00:56:34,975 --> 00:56:36,365 let's not be fooled for a second. 1479 00:56:36,925 --> 00:56:38,965 I if you wanna say this was an attack on Jews. 1480 00:56:39,675 --> 00:56:42,445 Well, you are desecrating the memory of all the non Jews 1481 00:56:42,445 --> 00:56:43,965 that were also slaughtered on that day. 1482 00:56:44,035 --> 00:56:46,245 Exactly. We're talk, we're not like talking two people, 1483 00:56:46,255 --> 00:56:47,405 we're talking 80 people. 1484 00:56:48,985 --> 00:56:50,435 It's just like, wait, they were, 1485 00:56:50,705 --> 00:56:52,035 this was an attack on Israel. 1486 00:56:52,385 --> 00:56:55,235 This was an attack on a sovereign nation state. Right. 1487 00:56:55,595 --> 00:56:58,555 A sovereign nation state, um, that is an apartheid state 1488 00:56:59,225 --> 00:57:02,755 that is continually taking over more Palestinian land 1489 00:57:03,055 --> 00:57:05,675 and slaughtering more Palestinians on a day-to-day basis. 1490 00:57:06,145 --> 00:57:08,355 That, that it was an attack on a state. 1491 00:57:08,575 --> 00:57:10,155 It was not an attack on the Jews. Right. 1492 00:57:10,155 --> 00:57:11,875 If you wanna attack Jews, well, 1493 00:57:11,875 --> 00:57:13,035 you could attack a synagogue. 1494 00:57:13,475 --> 00:57:15,195 I would say if you, if you attack a synagogue 1495 00:57:15,455 --> 00:57:18,435 and maybe a non-Jew gets killed in the synagogue, maybe the, 1496 00:57:18,635 --> 00:57:20,435 I don't know, the janitor was non-Jewish. 1497 00:57:20,435 --> 00:57:22,275 Well, okay, I'm not gonna claim that that's a non, 1498 00:57:22,535 --> 00:57:24,075 you were clearly attacking a synagogue 1499 00:57:24,075 --> 00:57:25,395 that is clearly an attack on Jews. 1500 00:57:25,405 --> 00:57:29,315 Right. But you attacked a, a nation state that 20% 1501 00:57:29,315 --> 00:57:30,915 of the people who live in it are non-Jewish. 1502 00:57:32,115 --> 00:57:34,115 - I, I, I make this point all the time where it's just, 1503 00:57:34,115 --> 00:57:36,475 it's such an insulting, whether it's from the US entities 1504 00:57:36,475 --> 00:57:38,515 or the Israeli entities, I make the point every time. 1505 00:57:38,575 --> 00:57:39,875 So when they say it was in attack 1506 00:57:39,895 --> 00:57:41,035 or, you know, any number 1507 00:57:41,035 --> 00:57:42,635 of ways they frame that, I make the point. 1508 00:57:42,695 --> 00:57:44,635 I'm like, so you don't care about the non-Jewish people 1509 00:57:44,635 --> 00:57:45,995 that were present, that were killed or, 1510 00:57:46,255 --> 00:57:47,915 or vice versa, who are held over here. 1511 00:57:48,215 --> 00:57:50,875 It just, it's, it's overt bigotry 1512 00:57:50,875 --> 00:57:52,675 and racism that you can see on the surface of 1513 00:57:52,675 --> 00:57:53,955 what they do on a regular basis. 1514 00:57:54,135 --> 00:57:56,595 And that's the most infuriating thing to most of us, is 1515 00:57:56,595 --> 00:57:58,915 that then you get called racist for highlighting 1516 00:57:58,915 --> 00:58:01,075 what is some of the most obvious racism of our time. 1517 00:58:01,375 --> 00:58:03,755 You know, it's this interesting, you know, it's Orwellian 1518 00:58:03,985 --> 00:58:05,475 what better time to use that phrase. 1519 00:58:05,475 --> 00:58:08,075 Right. But I, I wanna ask you about the, 1520 00:58:08,075 --> 00:58:09,075 the ceasefire in general, 1521 00:58:09,075 --> 00:58:10,595 because we just mentioned that before. 1522 00:58:10,975 --> 00:58:13,035 You know, that that kind of game that's played, 1523 00:58:13,105 --> 00:58:15,275 even going back to the other discussion you made even 1524 00:58:15,275 --> 00:58:16,515 further back, you know, so 1525 00:58:16,515 --> 00:58:18,755 what do you think about what's currently happening 1526 00:58:18,985 --> 00:58:21,875 with the play on the ceasefire that just happened and, 1527 00:58:21,895 --> 00:58:24,875 and the ongoing Rafa, you know, they've been bombing 1528 00:58:24,875 --> 00:58:25,875 and the continuation of 1529 00:58:25,875 --> 00:58:28,195 that post this point, you know, how do you read that? 1530 00:58:28,195 --> 00:58:29,835 How do you see it happening with the ceasefire? Go ahead. 1531 00:58:30,625 --> 00:58:33,195 - Yeah, look, I think one thing we know to be true is 1532 00:58:33,195 --> 00:58:35,195 that obviously Hamas wants a ceasefire. 1533 00:58:35,195 --> 00:58:37,155 And obviously Netanyahu doesn't want a ceasefire. 1534 00:58:37,315 --> 00:58:38,675 , obviously, I don't have privy 1535 00:58:38,675 --> 00:58:40,435 to the negotiation, so I don't know what was said. 1536 00:58:40,515 --> 00:58:42,075 I don't know what did, I don't. 1537 00:58:42,145 --> 00:58:43,875 It's all rumor and speculation and hearsay. 1538 00:58:44,375 --> 00:58:45,835 We don't know what exactly was offered. 1539 00:58:45,835 --> 00:58:47,195 We don't know what exactly was rejected. 1540 00:58:47,215 --> 00:58:50,275 But what we do know is that Netanyahu cannot agree 1541 00:58:50,275 --> 00:58:54,295 to a ceasefire because he, if he agrees to cease fire, he, 1542 00:58:54,315 --> 00:58:55,455 his coalition will collapse. 1543 00:58:55,955 --> 00:58:57,495 He will, uh, be voted out of office. 1544 00:58:57,695 --> 00:59:00,455 'cause 80% of Israelis, uh, believe he should resign. 1545 00:59:01,195 --> 00:59:04,375 And then he will be per, he will be tried in court 1546 00:59:04,835 --> 00:59:07,775 for the three crimes that he is being currently on trial 1547 00:59:07,775 --> 00:59:10,015 for, which are a bribery breach 1548 00:59:10,015 --> 00:59:11,535 of public trust and corruption. 1549 00:59:12,115 --> 00:59:14,455 So, so what what we, 1550 00:59:14,685 --> 00:59:18,095 what the only we can be 100% certain enough is Netanya, 1551 00:59:18,115 --> 00:59:20,215 who has no desire for a ceasefire 1552 00:59:20,965 --> 00:59:23,565 thing we can be very certain about is Hamas 1553 00:59:24,145 --> 00:59:27,005 is desperately obviously wanting the people 1554 00:59:27,005 --> 00:59:29,525 of Gaza are suffering to such an extent, Hamas is 1555 00:59:30,085 --> 00:59:32,765 military capacity has obviously been significantly reduced. 1556 00:59:33,305 --> 00:59:36,285 Um, clearly it's in Hamas' interest, uh, uh, 1557 00:59:36,345 --> 00:59:38,005 to get a ceasefire, right? 1558 00:59:38,005 --> 00:59:39,325 Yeah. So, I mean, that's what we know. 1559 00:59:39,325 --> 00:59:41,645 That, that, beyond that, I can't really say much. 1560 00:59:42,545 --> 00:59:44,355 - Fair enough. Fair enough. And I think what the most, 1561 00:59:44,355 --> 00:59:46,475 the most insulting part that you said there is the idea 1562 00:59:46,475 --> 00:59:48,915 that, for the fact even that Netanyahu, uh, 1563 00:59:49,035 --> 00:59:50,755 I believe is has maybe just recently was 1564 00:59:50,755 --> 00:59:51,795 about to speak in front of Congress. 1565 00:59:51,795 --> 00:59:53,355 Again, I haven't seen it, so I don't think it's happened, 1566 00:59:53,355 --> 00:59:55,515 but they're about to invite him back, a person 1567 00:59:55,515 --> 00:59:58,795 who is currently despised by almost all 1568 00:59:58,795 --> 01:00:01,075 of these early population that he's being charged 1569 01:00:01,135 --> 01:00:04,315 or investigated for, uh, exact phrasing 1570 01:00:04,315 --> 01:00:07,035 with breaking public trust or dishonesty in general, 1571 01:00:07,215 --> 01:00:09,755 but then the US entity, the media, they frame him 1572 01:00:09,755 --> 01:00:13,235 as some kind of, you know, major leader of today. 1573 01:00:13,235 --> 01:00:15,355 You know, it's just such an interesting, again, 1574 01:00:15,435 --> 01:00:19,315 I think the large point is this is why average people have 1575 01:00:19,315 --> 01:00:22,795 been just like shaken free from their comfortable position 1576 01:00:22,795 --> 01:00:24,555 before they can, where they can just pretend it's not 1577 01:00:24,555 --> 01:00:26,875 happening, not look at what's going on over there in Gaza. 1578 01:00:27,065 --> 01:00:28,955 It's changing. And I'm very happy to see that. 1579 01:00:29,555 --> 01:00:31,115 I, I guess let's, let's finish in general 1580 01:00:31,115 --> 01:00:33,995 with the conversation about both the, the settlements 1581 01:00:34,055 --> 01:00:35,195 and, and the future. 1582 01:00:35,855 --> 01:00:37,235 You know, any kind of, a lot 1583 01:00:37,235 --> 01:00:38,915 of directions you could take it, which way you want, 1584 01:00:38,935 --> 01:00:40,275 the idea of what's gonna happen. 1585 01:00:40,675 --> 01:00:41,995 I just have an image I pulled up here, 1586 01:00:42,135 --> 01:00:44,115 or a post about the settlers are already 1587 01:00:44,395 --> 01:00:45,635 renaming towns in Gaza. 1588 01:00:45,635 --> 01:00:47,195 We've seen them begin to build things. 1589 01:00:47,265 --> 01:00:49,275 They're having entire conferences about 1590 01:00:49,465 --> 01:00:50,635 what the settlements will be, 1591 01:00:50,665 --> 01:00:52,355 even though it gets denied in general 1592 01:00:52,495 --> 01:00:54,715 by the US administration, you know, 1593 01:00:54,715 --> 01:00:55,715 and seeing where this goes 1594 01:00:56,015 --> 01:00:58,555 and talking about, you know, Rafa and the end game here. 1595 01:00:58,555 --> 01:00:59,875 Like, how do you see this all going? 1596 01:01:00,255 --> 01:01:02,115 You know, just where you think the future will go and, 1597 01:01:02,135 --> 01:01:04,555 and whoop, sorry, I ly moved you there and, 1598 01:01:04,575 --> 01:01:07,075 and you know, what you think the outcome will be in regard 1599 01:01:07,075 --> 01:01:09,075 to those settlements with the conversation as it is now? 1600 01:01:09,075 --> 01:01:10,915 It's, it's, it's, they're contradictory. 1601 01:01:11,855 --> 01:01:16,635 - It, it is hard to imagine Israel being able to, 1602 01:01:16,815 --> 01:01:18,515 I'm not saying there isn't a desire to, but, 1603 01:01:18,515 --> 01:01:20,195 but being able to rebuild a, 1604 01:01:20,375 --> 01:01:23,675 an Israeli civilian settlement in the Casa strip, 1605 01:01:24,235 --> 01:01:25,755 I mean, my goodness. 1606 01:01:26,145 --> 01:01:27,395 Like, I, I'm, I also, 1607 01:01:27,395 --> 01:01:28,755 I'd be curious to know who wants to live there. 1608 01:01:29,395 --> 01:01:31,075 I mean, you're literally talking about a place 1609 01:01:31,075 --> 01:01:32,595 that has been completely leveled to the ground. 1610 01:01:32,595 --> 01:01:34,995 There's no infrastructure, um, that, you know, 1611 01:01:35,345 --> 01:01:38,315 that the contamination, the diseases spreading. 1612 01:01:38,355 --> 01:01:40,315 I mean, it's, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's a, 1613 01:01:40,315 --> 01:01:41,955 it's a not, it's not just a war zone. 1614 01:01:41,955 --> 01:01:43,635 It's a bloodbath. It's a slaughterhouse, right? 1615 01:01:43,695 --> 01:01:48,275 So, and then you're gonna live there and under the lock 1616 01:01:48,275 --> 01:01:50,435 and key of the Israeli army, you're gonna need, you know, 1617 01:01:50,655 --> 01:01:52,435 gu towers and guards 24 7, 1618 01:01:52,435 --> 01:01:54,275 because you're obviously gonna face attacks all the 1619 01:01:54,275 --> 01:01:55,675 time. Um, so I, I, 1620 01:01:56,355 --> 01:01:58,275 - I just real quick, I think that's exactly the point. 1621 01:01:58,555 --> 01:02:01,155 I think that it's about justifying the reasoning 1622 01:02:01,155 --> 01:02:02,595 behind Zionism and I 1623 01:02:02,595 --> 01:02:04,475 and arguing that see, they're being attacked 1624 01:02:04,495 --> 01:02:06,035 and like, this is even the 1625 01:02:06,035 --> 01:02:07,355 settlements and that conversation as well. 1626 01:02:07,555 --> 01:02:08,675 I genuinely think that 1627 01:02:09,455 --> 01:02:10,675 - That's an interesting perspective. 1628 01:02:10,785 --> 01:02:12,675 Look, I mean, you make an interesting point 1629 01:02:12,675 --> 01:02:15,955 because how, what sane human being there has 1630 01:02:15,955 --> 01:02:17,075 to be some other reason, right? 1631 01:02:17,075 --> 01:02:18,555 Because you're just, you're, 1632 01:02:18,555 --> 01:02:20,485 you're going on a suicide mission, honestly, is 1633 01:02:20,485 --> 01:02:21,765 what you're doing, right? 1634 01:02:21,785 --> 01:02:23,805 So I I, yeah, I, I I can't explain that. 1635 01:02:24,395 --> 01:02:27,245 - Yeah. Well, so what do you see being the future in 1636 01:02:27,245 --> 01:02:28,325 regard to what's about to happen? 1637 01:02:28,325 --> 01:02:29,925 Because we're so right now to end in general, 1638 01:02:30,015 --> 01:02:32,765 we're at a very dangerous point in all of this, right? 1639 01:02:32,815 --> 01:02:37,325 Where it's very obvious that every element seems to be aware 1640 01:02:37,405 --> 01:02:38,885 that they've lost control of the narrative, 1641 01:02:39,105 --> 01:02:40,965 and it's just drowning in their own lies. 1642 01:02:41,025 --> 01:02:43,845 And every moment is one more thing that the ICJ 1643 01:02:43,845 --> 01:02:45,765 and the ICC are making notes of, if 1644 01:02:45,765 --> 01:02:46,765 that goes the way it should. 1645 01:02:47,105 --> 01:02:49,005 And so we're at a point now where, as you said, 1646 01:02:49,035 --> 01:02:51,685 they can't really end this Netanyahu in particular, 1647 01:02:51,685 --> 01:02:54,165 because no matter how it ends, once it ends, 1648 01:02:54,345 --> 01:02:55,725 that's gonna be the ending for him. 1649 01:02:55,905 --> 01:02:57,685 And so the, and then you've got the other elements 1650 01:02:57,685 --> 01:02:59,365 of their government sort of like chomping at the 1651 01:02:59,365 --> 01:03:00,405 bit to have their control. 1652 01:03:00,425 --> 01:03:02,405 And, and these are some of the most extreme elements 1653 01:03:02,405 --> 01:03:03,765 that I've ever seen this conversation. 1654 01:03:04,025 --> 01:03:06,325 And we have Rafa kind of stuck in the middle of all this, 1655 01:03:06,345 --> 01:03:08,565 the entire Palestinian conversation, you know, 1656 01:03:08,565 --> 01:03:09,645 so just where do you see this going? 1657 01:03:09,665 --> 01:03:10,965 And it's all theoretical, right? 1658 01:03:10,985 --> 01:03:12,285 But how do you see this playing out? 1659 01:03:13,885 --> 01:03:16,565 - I, I see things continuing more 1660 01:03:16,565 --> 01:03:19,245 or less on a similar trajectory that they have been going, 1661 01:03:19,665 --> 01:03:21,045 uh, for the past few months. 1662 01:03:21,605 --> 01:03:24,325 Hmm. I think that it, there will continue to be these sort 1663 01:03:24,325 --> 01:03:28,125 of low level, um, you know, at least lower level operations, 1664 01:03:28,405 --> 01:03:29,965 military operations in the Gaza Strip than there were, 1665 01:03:30,025 --> 01:03:31,085 at least in the first few months. 1666 01:03:31,585 --> 01:03:34,085 You know, the number of dead Palestinians on a daily basis 1667 01:03:34,185 --> 01:03:36,205 is somewhere between, let's say, you know, 1668 01:03:36,345 --> 01:03:37,525 uh, 30 and a hundred. 1669 01:03:37,755 --> 01:03:40,765 Whereas in the first three, four months, it was somewhere 1670 01:03:40,765 --> 01:03:42,645 between, you know, 200 and 500. 1671 01:03:43,345 --> 01:03:45,685 In some days there were six, 700 people killed, right? Yeah. 1672 01:03:45,745 --> 01:03:46,925 But literally, so it's, 1673 01:03:46,925 --> 01:03:48,445 they've scale back the military operation, 1674 01:03:48,445 --> 01:03:50,405 they're slaughtering less Palestinians per day, 1675 01:03:50,405 --> 01:03:52,285 but nevertheless, continuing, right? 1676 01:03:52,385 --> 01:03:54,645 Um, the, the, the, the famine will get worse. 1677 01:03:55,515 --> 01:03:57,365 Famines don't get better. People don't realize this. 1678 01:03:57,515 --> 01:03:59,525 There's only one direction to go in, right? 1679 01:03:59,735 --> 01:04:01,605 We're, we're beyond this, uh, uh, the, 1680 01:04:01,705 --> 01:04:04,525 unless you have, even if you turn thi even if overnight 1681 01:04:05,225 --> 01:04:07,205 you allow all the humanitarian trucks in, 1682 01:04:07,345 --> 01:04:08,925 you allow all the aid in 1683 01:04:09,265 --> 01:04:12,125 and let it get uninhibited to the places where you need to. 1684 01:04:12,425 --> 01:04:14,685 People are dying already. Mm-Hmm. 1685 01:04:14,765 --> 01:04:17,165 according to the un, just, uh, uh, just the, 1686 01:04:17,385 --> 01:04:19,085 the statements were made just a day 1687 01:04:19,085 --> 01:04:21,885 or two ago, full-blown famine in North Casa. 1688 01:04:21,885 --> 01:04:23,645 Right? 600 people literally starving to death. 1689 01:04:23,945 --> 01:04:25,645 And so there will, and so, and, 1690 01:04:25,645 --> 01:04:28,405 and unfortunately, those people who are in the worst cases, 1691 01:04:28,915 --> 01:04:30,005 they can't leave their homes. 1692 01:04:30,005 --> 01:04:33,005 They're, they're, they're too frail and weak to move, right? 1693 01:04:33,025 --> 01:04:34,925 So they, so we don't even know it's happening. 1694 01:04:35,175 --> 01:04:36,245 There isn't reporting. 1695 01:04:36,685 --> 01:04:37,965 'cause the only reporting we have are people 1696 01:04:37,965 --> 01:04:41,325 who wind up in the hospitals, the 32 or 35, or 1697 01:04:41,325 --> 01:04:44,045 however many, uh, starved s who have starved to death 1698 01:04:44,045 --> 01:04:45,045 by the official counts. 1699 01:04:45,545 --> 01:04:48,005 Um, those are just people who have made it to a hospital. 1700 01:04:48,645 --> 01:04:50,605 Hmm. So we're gonna see more starvation. 1701 01:04:51,725 --> 01:04:53,665 Um, we're gonna see more diseases spreading. 1702 01:04:53,665 --> 01:04:55,105 There's a million people who have a 1703 01:04:55,105 --> 01:04:56,265 disease right now in Gaza. 1704 01:04:56,705 --> 01:05:00,905 Hmm. Half of the population has hepatitis a skin disease, 1705 01:05:01,205 --> 01:05:03,625 you know, a flu pneumonia, a cold. 1706 01:05:04,015 --> 01:05:06,425 They have all kinds of diarrhea. 1707 01:05:06,765 --> 01:05:08,865 So all kinds of awful diseases. 1708 01:05:08,935 --> 01:05:10,745 Half of the people in Gaza are sick right now. 1709 01:05:10,745 --> 01:05:15,465 That will get worse. Um, so I just, I, again, I, I I, 1710 01:05:15,685 --> 01:05:17,140 it is painful to say these things, things, 1711 01:05:17,140 --> 01:05:19,365 but I just, I don't see the Biden administration actually 1712 01:05:19,485 --> 01:05:22,765 shifting gears and without a, a, a, 1713 01:05:22,885 --> 01:05:25,245 a hard stop without real, uh, um, you know, 1714 01:05:25,245 --> 01:05:26,765 action from the Biden administration. 1715 01:05:27,505 --> 01:05:30,045 Um, I don't see things changing in the Gaza Strip. 1716 01:05:30,385 --> 01:05:31,485 So I think it'll get worse. 1717 01:05:31,745 --> 01:05:34,125 The humanitarian crisis will worsen Israel continue 1718 01:05:34,125 --> 01:05:35,845 to raise a low level, uh, 1719 01:05:35,955 --> 01:05:38,725 genocidal war on all 2 million people in Gaza. 1720 01:05:39,065 --> 01:05:41,125 Um, and, uh, 1721 01:05:41,265 --> 01:05:43,605 and Netanyahu will hope, uh, uh, Trump wins in November. 1722 01:05:43,795 --> 01:05:45,325 Yeah. Because that's his best hope 1723 01:05:45,325 --> 01:05:47,565 for then continuing beyond November. Right. 1724 01:05:47,955 --> 01:05:49,285 - Well, I get last two things then. 1725 01:05:49,325 --> 01:05:51,885 I mean, do what, what part does West Bank plan in this? 1726 01:05:51,955 --> 01:05:54,325 Because obviously that's starting to, and then 1727 01:05:54,345 --> 01:05:56,125 and truly to, to end on the point of, 1728 01:05:56,125 --> 01:05:57,245 you know, what do you think then? 1729 01:05:57,805 --> 01:05:58,805 'cause I sadly agree with you, 1730 01:05:58,865 --> 01:06:02,005 and I mean, it's just this inevitable slow motion genocide 1731 01:06:02,235 --> 01:06:05,445 that is, it is just, it's very difficult for anybody, 1732 01:06:05,615 --> 01:06:07,725 especially per people that have barely paid attention 1733 01:06:07,725 --> 01:06:09,005 to this before to watch. 1734 01:06:09,545 --> 01:06:11,685 So what do you recommend they do if they're out there 1735 01:06:11,885 --> 01:06:13,965 watching, you know, in, and what actions can they take? 1736 01:06:15,685 --> 01:06:19,125 - I think that we all need to, um, 1737 01:06:19,765 --> 01:06:21,325 leverage our own strengths when thinking about 1738 01:06:21,325 --> 01:06:22,405 what we can all do, right? 1739 01:06:22,785 --> 01:06:25,885 So it could be that if I'm a politician, okay, well then, 1740 01:06:25,985 --> 01:06:27,965 uh, you know, I can vote, uh, I have a, 1741 01:06:27,965 --> 01:06:29,165 I have a vote in the US Congress. 1742 01:06:29,165 --> 01:06:31,925 Well, that's, that's about like, you know, um, so, 1743 01:06:31,925 --> 01:06:33,645 so you can, but if you're not a, a politician, 1744 01:06:33,645 --> 01:06:35,285 you can lobby your politician Mm-Hmm. 1745 01:06:35,325 --> 01:06:36,445 , um, you can go to a protest. 1746 01:06:37,105 --> 01:06:39,685 You can, you can share, uh, uh, content online. 1747 01:06:40,185 --> 01:06:42,725 Um, you know, you can, uh, if you work at a company 1748 01:06:42,785 --> 01:06:46,365 or a business, you can advocate that your company, uh, 1749 01:06:46,665 --> 01:06:49,765 you know, cease it's, uh, projects and, 1750 01:06:49,965 --> 01:06:52,605 and partnerships with the Israeli military, right? 1751 01:06:52,745 --> 01:06:55,765 Um, right. If you're, if you're a university student, 1752 01:06:55,865 --> 01:06:57,085 you can demand that you, 1753 01:06:57,275 --> 01:06:59,485 that your university divest from companies 1754 01:06:59,485 --> 01:07:00,845 profiting off Israel's genocide. 1755 01:07:01,145 --> 01:07:03,405 So we're, you know, I'm not a college student, 1756 01:07:03,405 --> 01:07:05,405 so I don't have any leverage over my university, right? 1757 01:07:05,405 --> 01:07:07,085 Right. I don't work at a business, let's say, 1758 01:07:07,085 --> 01:07:10,445 that's invested in Israeli apartheid or in Israeli genocide. 1759 01:07:10,445 --> 01:07:11,605 So maybe I can't do that, 1760 01:07:11,605 --> 01:07:14,365 but maybe, maybe I have some other le maybe I have a circle 1761 01:07:14,385 --> 01:07:16,245 of friends that don't know anything about Gaza, 1762 01:07:16,245 --> 01:07:17,925 and maybe I can educate them, right? 1763 01:07:17,945 --> 01:07:19,005 So you have to find 1764 01:07:19,005 --> 01:07:21,965 where you have leverage in the system and use that leverage. 1765 01:07:23,015 --> 01:07:25,175 - I agree. I agree. And I think that's important right now, 1766 01:07:25,175 --> 01:07:28,735 that as I, as I framed this recently 1767 01:07:28,795 --> 01:07:30,895 and I reached show people verse the Empire 1768 01:07:31,405 --> 01:07:33,695 Worldwide revolution against tyranny, oppression, 1769 01:07:33,695 --> 01:07:35,415 and Zionism framed as antisemitism. 1770 01:07:35,515 --> 01:07:37,815 The first part being the important part is that I agree 1771 01:07:37,815 --> 01:07:40,335 that I think right now, regardless of the politics 1772 01:07:40,335 --> 01:07:42,095 or the mis, you know, what you think people may be have 1773 01:07:42,095 --> 01:07:45,415 wrong or what color their hair is, I think it's obvious 1774 01:07:45,445 --> 01:07:48,095 that right now this is a growing movement to people 1775 01:07:48,095 --> 01:07:49,095 that see what's happening. 1776 01:07:49,635 --> 01:07:51,495 And I appreciate you taking the time today 1777 01:07:51,495 --> 01:07:52,895 to talk about this, because this is 1778 01:07:52,895 --> 01:07:54,015 so monumentally important. 1779 01:07:54,375 --> 01:07:55,855 I hope people will just get out there to try 1780 01:07:55,855 --> 01:07:58,135 to raise awareness about this show solidarity, 1781 01:07:58,565 --> 01:07:59,575 talk about what's happening, 1782 01:07:59,635 --> 01:08:01,335 do a show like we're doing Hand 1783 01:08:01,335 --> 01:08:02,375 Out Flyers for Crying Out Loud. 1784 01:08:02,535 --> 01:08:04,935 I really believe we're making a difference on this. 1785 01:08:05,235 --> 01:08:07,055 The sad reality is that what we're, 1786 01:08:07,175 --> 01:08:09,535 I think most people are becoming uncomfortably aware of is 1787 01:08:09,535 --> 01:08:11,615 that they don't care what we think or say. 1788 01:08:11,835 --> 01:08:14,175 And, and really that because of that, we've had less 1789 01:08:14,175 --> 01:08:18,085 and less ability to have immediate action to change 1790 01:08:18,085 --> 01:08:19,165 what they're doing in real time. 1791 01:08:19,505 --> 01:08:21,245 But we are doing it. And I think the more people 1792 01:08:21,245 --> 01:08:23,325 that stand up, we're watching that change slowly. 1793 01:08:23,705 --> 01:08:25,605 And I believe that that could 1794 01:08:25,785 --> 01:08:28,205 and can make a bigger difference on, you know, right now, 1795 01:08:28,205 --> 01:08:29,205 people's lives in Gaza. 1796 01:08:29,205 --> 01:08:30,965 So thank you for, for taking the time. 1797 01:08:31,445 --> 01:08:33,125 Anything else you wanna share with us before we leave today? 1798 01:08:33,625 --> 01:08:35,365 Thanks so much for having me. I, it was a pleasure. 1799 01:08:35,975 --> 01:08:37,885 Thank you, brother. I appreciate it. And hope we talk soon. 1800 01:08:38,115 --> 01:08:39,165 Okay. Fantastic. And as always, 1801 01:08:39,165 --> 01:08:40,885 everybody out there question everything, 1802 01:08:41,035 --> 01:08:42,205 come to your own conclusions. 1803 01:08:42,435 --> 01:08:43,125 Stay vigilant.