WEBVTT 00:00:00.020 --> 00:00:02.840 Well, hey, all you wiretappers back here in the studio of Gangland Wire. 00:00:03.040 --> 00:00:07.180 You know, this is retired Detective Gary Jenkins from the Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit. 00:00:07.420 --> 00:00:11.620 And I have a man on the line right now, as you can see. 00:00:11.880 --> 00:00:15.140 Now, we couldn't get the video. I apologize for that. 00:00:15.620 --> 00:00:18.920 We couldn't get the video. So you got a picture. I mean, I'll have other pictures 00:00:18.920 --> 00:00:20.600 in there, but he's got a heck of a story. 00:00:20.760 --> 00:00:24.660 He's a mob author, a well-known mob author from New York. 00:00:24.840 --> 00:00:29.840 He was on the show before, and we talked about Vincent de Chin Gigante. 00:00:30.020 --> 00:00:34.520 He wrote Chin, The Life and Crimes of Mafia Boss Vincent Gigante. 00:00:35.340 --> 00:00:42.060 And Larry McShane also wrote Last Dawn Standing, The Secret Life of Mob Boss Ralph Natal. 00:00:42.840 --> 00:00:46.320 So welcome, Larry. I'm really happy to have you back on the show. 00:00:47.020 --> 00:00:50.520 Oh, I'm happy to come back. Thanks so much for asking. All right. 00:00:50.620 --> 00:00:52.160 So you have written this book. 00:00:52.360 --> 00:00:56.260 Really, it's about the Third Columbo War. Would you say that's what this book 00:00:56.260 --> 00:01:02.260 was about? Well, yeah, the third Columbo war is kind of the centerpiece of the whole thing. 00:01:02.520 --> 00:01:06.580 And then, you know, later in the book, we get on to some other things. 00:01:07.400 --> 00:01:10.820 Legal things, what happened to the arenas and that sort of thing. 00:01:11.180 --> 00:01:13.560 But, yeah, it's it's a mob war book. 00:01:14.120 --> 00:01:18.840 What this is, is the title is Little Vic and the Great Mafia War. 00:01:18.840 --> 00:01:22.240 And, you know, these, these Columbo's, I tell you what, this, 00:01:22.420 --> 00:01:28.380 they coined, they must've coined the phrase going to the mattresses because the entire community. 00:01:28.500 --> 00:01:31.520 Span of the colombo family both before joe 00:01:31.520 --> 00:01:34.560 died there was killed and and up until the end they're 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:37.840 always have to go to the mattresses people are always running 00:01:37.840 --> 00:01:41.940 around and cruise trying to kill each other and and this third one was was no 00:01:41.940 --> 00:01:46.420 different it's uh it's just crazy tell us a little bit about your process here 00:01:46.420 --> 00:01:50.380 how you started researching this not been a lot done about vic Orena i don't 00:01:50.380 --> 00:01:53.900 know what kind of resources you got on that you have to report cases but you 00:01:53.900 --> 00:01:56.920 talked to some of these kids too, I believe, which is really interesting. 00:01:57.120 --> 00:01:59.300 You got some inside knowledge there. 00:01:59.560 --> 00:02:04.160 Yeah, I'll give you kind of the long version. I'd spoken to Andrew Orena, 00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:08.020 who's one of Vic's five sons, about doing something. 00:02:08.180 --> 00:02:12.340 He had approached me through a guy that we both knew. I thought it was a kind 00:02:12.340 --> 00:02:16.940 of story that isn't told often, and especially with the idea of the son cooperating, 00:02:17.060 --> 00:02:19.800 I thought, this is kind of interesting. You know what I mean? 00:02:20.340 --> 00:02:23.780 So we shopped it around and, you know, we got no takers. 00:02:23.980 --> 00:02:28.020 The guy who helped me get the Chin book out, the guy from the publishing house, 00:02:28.140 --> 00:02:31.680 Kensington Publishing, was getting ready to retire. And he got a hold of me 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:34.900 and he said, I'd like to do one more book with you before I retired. 00:02:35.160 --> 00:02:39.160 And I said, how about that Orena book that you sniffed me on? 00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:41.460 He said, well, send me the stuff. I'll take another look. 00:02:41.640 --> 00:02:44.840 And he took another look and he said, yeah, let's do it. 00:02:44.940 --> 00:02:48.060 It took a long while to get here. You know, I think, as you mentioned, 00:02:48.440 --> 00:02:52.500 the ability to have two of the Orena brothers, two of Vic's sons, 00:02:52.640 --> 00:02:54.600 I think, make this a different kind of book. 00:02:54.800 --> 00:02:59.560 You know, there's so much coverage of what happened back then in the early 90s 00:02:59.560 --> 00:03:02.340 because it was the last big mob war. 00:03:02.540 --> 00:03:05.360 And so I thought, you know, I thought and the publisher agreed that, 00:03:05.480 --> 00:03:07.480 you know, this is a story worth telling. 00:03:07.760 --> 00:03:11.240 Yeah, I mean, there's a lot from, you know, FBI agents telling, 00:03:11.380 --> 00:03:14.840 you know, this is what I remember. maybe even an informant or two out there. 00:03:15.020 --> 00:03:17.500 This is kind of what I remember, but they're really hard to find. 00:03:17.800 --> 00:03:22.200 But court cases, there's a lot out of the court cases, but you got the family, 00:03:22.720 --> 00:03:26.760 the view from inside the family, which I think is fascinating because these 00:03:26.760 --> 00:03:29.660 families, that Orena family, they stuck together. 00:03:29.840 --> 00:03:37.680 They truly were a old school Italian from Sicily mafia family. Yeah. 00:03:38.440 --> 00:03:41.600 John is the older brother who I spoke to. He was a made guy. 00:03:42.240 --> 00:03:46.520 He had a brother who was Vic Orena Jr. He was a made guy. 00:03:47.820 --> 00:03:51.400 And Andrew, who I mentioned first approached me. 00:03:52.310 --> 00:03:57.110 Um, was, was, was never a made guy cause his mom put the squash on it. 00:03:57.670 --> 00:04:00.950 He said, you know, two sons in, in the life where, so he was, 00:04:01.070 --> 00:04:03.770 um, I guess you could say he was sort of mob adjacent. 00:04:03.910 --> 00:04:07.570 He, he, uh, he was involved in a lot of stuff and he knew about a lot of stuff, 00:04:07.610 --> 00:04:09.790 but he never, he never became a made guy. 00:04:10.050 --> 00:04:13.270 So now this, uh, you know, he, he was in the Clembo family and, 00:04:13.390 --> 00:04:14.790 uh, the Persicos had, uh, 00:04:14.910 --> 00:04:18.810 famously taken over from after Joe Clembo was killed and, uh, 00:04:18.890 --> 00:04:21.710 get them kind of mixed up alley boy 00:04:21.710 --> 00:04:24.670 and uh carmine the snake really were 00:04:24.670 --> 00:04:28.290 you know hand in glove with each other uh alley boy was 00:04:28.290 --> 00:04:31.250 i believe he was uh he was the younger wasn't he 00:04:31.250 --> 00:04:37.550 and so carmine took over clumbo family was in real flux at that point in time 00:04:37.550 --> 00:04:41.950 try everybody was kind of jockeying for a position i would imagine and and for 00:04:41.950 --> 00:04:46.530 a while it ran pretty smooth at the persicos carmine went to jail and And he 00:04:46.530 --> 00:04:49.950 named three people to run the family, if I remember right. 00:04:50.130 --> 00:04:54.290 And then, of course, another person called Little Alley Boy is going to move 00:04:54.290 --> 00:04:56.430 on up. It's kind of that way in Kansas City. 00:04:56.630 --> 00:05:05.110 If Nick Savella goes to jail, his brother of court becomes the titular head. 00:05:05.110 --> 00:05:09.010 He becomes the guy that everybody goes to and assumes he's the boss. 00:05:09.130 --> 00:05:12.690 He may not be exactly, and there may be other people doing a lot of things, 00:05:12.690 --> 00:05:17.130 but because of that name identification, why, uh, they're going to do it. 00:05:17.410 --> 00:05:22.230 And, and then Orena, a little bit Orena was right in there with them at that point in time. 00:05:22.590 --> 00:05:25.450 So can you talk about that part of it a little bit? Well, when, 00:05:25.590 --> 00:05:30.110 uh, when Carmine Persco goes to jail, that's in the mafia commission trial, 00:05:30.350 --> 00:05:31.390 which is a big trial here. 00:05:31.450 --> 00:05:34.870 This was the start of Rico prosecutions around this time. 00:05:35.130 --> 00:05:39.530 And he, he very famously represented himself as his own attorney and got some 00:05:39.530 --> 00:05:41.670 pretty good reviews as well. 00:05:42.010 --> 00:05:46.370 Unfortunately, he did not get the verdict that he'd hoped for, despite his efforts. 00:05:46.610 --> 00:05:51.010 And he had been convicted on an earlier case. So he went to prison in. 00:05:51.500 --> 00:05:54.220 80 or he was convicted in 86 he had 00:05:54.220 --> 00:05:58.180 this prior conviction over him so he had 139 year 00:05:58.180 --> 00:06:01.320 sentence ahead of uh and and clearly you know 00:06:01.320 --> 00:06:04.280 he was not going to get out and return to running the family so 00:06:04.280 --> 00:06:07.240 they they bring in a middle manny type 00:06:07.240 --> 00:06:09.980 guy not not a guy with um i guess 00:06:09.980 --> 00:06:13.280 not a guy with a lot of juice and uh persco quickly 00:06:13.280 --> 00:06:16.060 turns on this guy he's executed in a garage in new 00:06:16.060 --> 00:06:19.740 jersey you know typical thing he's taking 00:06:19.740 --> 00:06:23.060 his friends back to his house and he never he never gets inside 00:06:23.060 --> 00:06:26.000 the house kind of thing you know yeah and so at this point 00:06:26.000 --> 00:06:29.120 uh the agreement is made among all sides that vicarina is 00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:31.960 going to become the uh acting boss which is 00:06:31.960 --> 00:06:35.160 interesting because Orena is more known as 00:06:35.160 --> 00:06:38.060 like a businessman and an earner you know 00:06:38.060 --> 00:06:40.840 he's got his own crew he's living at this point out 00:06:40.840 --> 00:06:43.600 in the suburbs of long island but he seems to be 00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:46.560 a choice that that everybody is in agreement with 00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:49.600 and things go smoothly kind of seamless once he takes over 00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:52.700 you know they have a lot of uh income flows coming 00:06:52.700 --> 00:06:55.780 in and out he's got as i mentioned his two sons vic 00:06:55.780 --> 00:07:00.800 jr and johnny capos in the family everything seems to be rolling in the Orena 00:07:00.800 --> 00:07:07.480 in his direction and then one night in the summer of uh 1991 he's coming back 00:07:07.480 --> 00:07:12.920 from dinner and he's almost at his house and he looks Sovereign sees a car with 00:07:12.920 --> 00:07:14.740 four faces that he recognizes. 00:07:15.160 --> 00:07:19.260 Four of his fellow members of the family, and they're waiting to kill him. 00:07:19.520 --> 00:07:25.940 Fortunately for him, he sees them before they see him. He slams on the gas, gets out of Dodge. 00:07:26.340 --> 00:07:31.360 That's how the war kicks off, you know, with this attempted hit on Vicarina. 00:07:31.620 --> 00:07:35.500 It rather than taking him out proves to be, you know, a total failure. 00:07:35.820 --> 00:07:39.460 Yeah, if you set out to kill somebody, you better get it done. 00:07:39.460 --> 00:07:44.620 And if they learned about it, you're, you're, you're, you know, the war is on. 00:07:44.720 --> 00:07:49.140 I mean, you know, they know once, once that thing starts down the path, 00:07:49.300 --> 00:07:52.940 once that bullet starts down that barrel that you're going to kill somebody 00:07:52.940 --> 00:07:54.480 there, there's no calling it back. 00:07:54.500 --> 00:07:58.540 So it's, it's from then on it's kill or be killed. Wasn't it was Greg Scarpa. 00:07:58.680 --> 00:08:00.920 Was, was that one of the guys he recognized in there? 00:08:01.940 --> 00:08:07.140 No, it was not. Scarpa was, Scarpa was not one of the guys involved in that hit. 00:08:07.140 --> 00:08:12.920 And he's going to get involved in a lot of this later on, which is a pretty interesting thing. 00:08:12.920 --> 00:08:18.840 The conflict with Scarpa and his FBI agent friend and what the Orena is, 00:08:18.880 --> 00:08:24.400 how they see that, what they have to say about that relationship and the trials 00:08:24.400 --> 00:08:26.080 that were going to happen later on. 00:08:26.220 --> 00:08:30.860 But now another thing, I think you mentioned something about John Gotti was 00:08:30.860 --> 00:08:37.880 pretty close with Orena and they had some business together. Yeah, it was... 00:08:39.400 --> 00:08:44.460 I mean it was good for for gotti because it gave him another guy on the commission, 00:08:44.940 --> 00:08:47.700 okay who would back you know what he wanted to 00:08:47.700 --> 00:08:50.380 do and so yeah the two of them were were on 00:08:50.380 --> 00:08:53.080 the same side of things sammy gravano who was 00:08:53.080 --> 00:08:55.860 the underboss at that point i had a chance to speak with 00:08:55.860 --> 00:08:58.860 him uh while i was working on the book you 00:08:58.860 --> 00:09:01.760 know and he said that vic was like a well-regarded guy 00:09:01.760 --> 00:09:04.720 and uh you know there didn't seem to be any reason for 00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:07.480 any problems with the selection of vic he's a guy that made 00:09:07.480 --> 00:09:10.700 money uh not a flashy showy guy 00:09:10.700 --> 00:09:13.360 sort of sort of the anti-goddy you know 00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:16.400 what i mean uh he's he's living at home with his wife as 00:09:16.400 --> 00:09:19.180 i mentioned they have five sons you know and he's just a 00:09:19.180 --> 00:09:23.260 guy who's pretty well regarded you know what i mean he's a money maker which 00:09:23.260 --> 00:09:29.340 is always valued you know across any of the families what was uh persico carmine 00:09:29.340 --> 00:09:34.220 persico was he afraid that that vic was then gonna take away something he thought 00:09:34.220 --> 00:09:36.980 was his and that's being the boss of the Colombo family? 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:39.900 Was that what precipitated this? 00:09:40.380 --> 00:09:44.660 I think that had something to do with it, but it's an odd thing because by most 00:09:44.660 --> 00:09:51.880 accounts, little alley boy was going to be getting out of prison in a couple of years in 1995. 00:09:53.340 --> 00:09:59.380 It seemed set up, and I think it would have happened this way. 00:10:00.520 --> 00:10:05.240 That he would finish his time, he'd get out of jail, and he would immediately 00:10:05.240 --> 00:10:07.100 move to the top of the family. 00:10:07.520 --> 00:10:11.360 You know, the war lasts through 1993. 00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:18.620 So really, if they had just waited two years, but as you sort of referred to 00:10:18.620 --> 00:10:23.420 when we were talking earlier, that's sort of the way that the Columbos did things. You know what I mean? 00:10:23.680 --> 00:10:27.020 Yeah. You know, with the wars going back to the gallows. So, yeah. 00:10:28.020 --> 00:10:31.700 Yeah, that is true. One crew against the other. 00:10:31.900 --> 00:10:33.580 One crew feels like they're out 00:10:33.580 --> 00:10:37.840 and are afraid somebody's going to get something that they should have. 00:10:38.060 --> 00:10:45.220 And so as this heats up now, what kind of actions do Orena, his sons, take? 00:10:45.340 --> 00:10:50.360 I mean, if you take on a guy with two sons who are made guys and are capos, 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:55.200 that's pretty serious stuff because you're taking on some real power, 00:10:55.380 --> 00:10:58.120 some people that are going to be hard to isolate. 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:02.300 So what kind of actions did they start taking in their own defense? 00:11:02.640 --> 00:11:07.540 Well, the initial thing from their side, the Orena side of things, 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:12.580 was they wanted to see if this was something that they could resolve. 00:11:12.660 --> 00:11:16.200 I use the old cliche, without going to the mattresses, you know what I mean? 00:11:16.400 --> 00:11:22.100 They wanted to resolve this. And so between the two sides, and I believe it 00:11:22.100 --> 00:11:28.000 was at the home of one of the Persico sons, the arenas were looking to broker a deal. 00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:34.480 And basically, the option was kind of, you know, we want somebody else in. 00:11:34.840 --> 00:11:39.140 It quickly became clear that everything was not going to go back to the way 00:11:39.140 --> 00:11:45.260 it was, even though, you know, Vic had been in during a relatively long time. 00:11:46.050 --> 00:11:49.290 Quiet stretch in the family um and 00:11:49.290 --> 00:11:52.790 uh you know he had a lot of supporters but they 00:11:52.790 --> 00:11:55.650 they just couldn't come to a resolution which is a 00:11:55.650 --> 00:11:58.690 debate over a guy who's going to be in prison for 00:11:58.690 --> 00:12:01.690 three or four more years yeah you know 00:12:01.690 --> 00:12:06.850 and to oust the guy who's in there things just kind of fester for a while you 00:12:06.850 --> 00:12:11.070 know the the arenas are uh the arenas are wondering what's going to happen next 00:12:11.070 --> 00:12:15.410 of course they're all very upset that there was an attempt to murder their father 00:12:15.410 --> 00:12:19.050 near their home out in Long Island, Cedarhurst they lived. 00:12:19.230 --> 00:12:25.650 So I guess there's just a very uncomfortable stretch until the arenas decide 00:12:25.650 --> 00:12:28.430 to strike back. So what was their first move back? 00:12:28.690 --> 00:12:32.990 They decide Billy Cattolo, who's a high-ranking guy in the family, 00:12:33.290 --> 00:12:36.790 decides that if they're going to go after somebody, they should start near the top. 00:12:36.910 --> 00:12:40.190 And so they target Greg Scarpa. Yeah, exactly. 00:12:40.450 --> 00:12:42.930 That's how he comes into this. I remember now. 00:12:43.690 --> 00:12:50.350 Yeah. So they load into a van and they drive to Brooklyn and they lie in wait for Scarpa. 00:12:50.610 --> 00:12:56.890 He comes out of his house with his girlfriend, the girlfriend's daughter, 00:12:57.090 --> 00:13:01.110 I should say, Linda Shiro, his girlfriend's daughter, who's carrying her infant son. 00:13:01.470 --> 00:13:04.230 These four guy shooters come out of their van. 00:13:04.990 --> 00:13:08.230 There's another car that's used to hopefully block traffic. 00:13:09.070 --> 00:13:15.010 And they open fire. Incredibly, in all the craziness, no one is shot. 00:13:15.310 --> 00:13:19.510 They jump in the car and they flee the scene. But at this point, 00:13:19.710 --> 00:13:25.050 this thing goes from zero to 200 or whatever analogy you'd like to make. 00:13:25.230 --> 00:13:28.970 Because now the Orena side has fired the first shots. 00:13:29.290 --> 00:13:34.350 As it emerges, Scarpa becomes the most active shooter throughout, 00:13:34.610 --> 00:13:39.250 the most aggressive guy throughout, begins to raise questions as time goes on 00:13:39.250 --> 00:13:42.210 about his relationship with Lynn DeVecchio. 00:13:44.110 --> 00:13:48.110 Who's working the case for the FBI out of Brooklyn. 00:13:48.810 --> 00:13:53.990 So the FBI, their deep throat informant, their most valuable informant they 00:13:53.990 --> 00:13:59.070 probably maybe have ever had, but one of their more valuable informants is right 00:13:59.070 --> 00:14:03.030 in the middle of this Colombo active shooting war now. 00:14:03.030 --> 00:14:09.210 Now, I guess later on, as they have these trials, they're going to accuse DiBecchio 00:14:09.210 --> 00:14:17.530 of fomenting even more violence and assisting Scarpa because Scarpa, he needs to win. 00:14:18.210 --> 00:14:22.070 Also, I have one other question before we get too far into Scarpa. 00:14:22.230 --> 00:14:26.950 He had a pretty decent drug business going, I believe, in the end. 00:14:26.950 --> 00:14:31.730 And then, and little Vic Orena was pretty, took a pretty strong stance against 00:14:31.730 --> 00:14:33.530 anybody in the family doing drugs. 00:14:33.650 --> 00:14:36.790 Did that have anything to do with it? Did the kids talk about that at all? 00:14:37.730 --> 00:14:41.330 No, not really. You know, there was so much. 00:14:43.260 --> 00:14:51.860 I mean, to me, this war was more personal than, you know, financial or, 00:14:52.040 --> 00:14:58.160 you know, this was who was going to run the family, who was going to control the family. 00:14:58.420 --> 00:15:03.380 You know, the Arenas found themselves locked in this war against the Persicos, 00:15:03.660 --> 00:15:05.220 who were yin to their yang. 00:15:05.520 --> 00:15:08.920 Johnny Orena and one of the Persicos ran a trucking company together. 00:15:08.920 --> 00:15:13.100 So they weren't just involved in illegal money-making things. 00:15:13.100 --> 00:15:16.300 They ran businesses and they worked together side by side. 00:15:16.560 --> 00:15:20.160 And so, yeah, the initial hit, I think, is really a shocker. 00:15:20.340 --> 00:15:24.320 Months later, it's like, here's the second hit. They're going after Scarpa immediately. 00:15:24.380 --> 00:15:26.140 You know what I mean? Yeah. 00:15:27.060 --> 00:15:30.920 And so at that point, I think all bets are off. There's not going to be any 00:15:30.920 --> 00:15:32.480 peace achieved at that point. 00:15:32.760 --> 00:15:35.760 I mean, you couldn't tell at the time, I guess, but it would be two and a half 00:15:35.760 --> 00:15:38.580 years before everything finally settled down. 00:15:38.760 --> 00:15:44.020 And at that point, Vicarino was behind bars, and he's still there today despite 00:15:44.020 --> 00:15:46.660 best efforts of his family to try and get him out. 00:15:47.000 --> 00:15:51.580 Yeah, I was reading that in your book, how bad his health was and how much he 00:15:51.580 --> 00:15:53.100 changed his life around now. 00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:58.840 But before we get onto that, let's talk a little more about Scarpa. 00:15:59.380 --> 00:16:02.860 I mean, they tried to hit Scarpa with 00:16:02.860 --> 00:16:08.420 guns right with his stepdaughter and step-grandchild standing right there. 00:16:08.640 --> 00:16:11.720 I mean, that's, to me, that's such a huge no-no. 00:16:11.900 --> 00:16:18.140 I mean, you see those civilians walking out, you just move on and let's try again. But they didn't. 00:16:18.280 --> 00:16:20.180 They tried to hit him right there. 00:16:20.400 --> 00:16:24.260 That had to, you talk about it being personal, that had to really make it personal. 00:16:24.880 --> 00:16:28.200 Yeah, I agree with you that it's sort of a weird thing that you don't hear about, 00:16:28.740 --> 00:16:30.820 putting somebody's family in the line of fire. 00:16:31.240 --> 00:16:39.060 You know, I think there was a notion on the on the Orena side of things that if you killed Scarpa. 00:16:40.040 --> 00:16:45.100 Maybe that would be a way, an avenue to figure out a way to end the war if you 00:16:45.100 --> 00:16:47.720 take out their top guy, right? Yeah, right. 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:51.500 But instead you end up with an infuriated Scarpa, 00:16:52.250 --> 00:16:58.210 who nearly sees his grandchild and daughter killed in front of his eyes on a street in Brooklyn. 00:16:58.650 --> 00:17:06.430 Winding down, if I remember this Billy Cattolo, they then went back after him. 00:17:06.570 --> 00:17:09.770 He was kind of a wild guy. I think he had the moniker of Wild Bill. 00:17:09.970 --> 00:17:13.190 I believe they ended up going after him. Yeah, Wild Bill Cattolo. 00:17:13.330 --> 00:17:19.010 He was an Orena loyalist, although he managed to make his way out at the other 00:17:19.010 --> 00:17:20.530 end of the war untouched. 00:17:20.730 --> 00:17:24.270 He did. But he ends up getting killed at some point in time since then, 00:17:24.350 --> 00:17:26.950 I think. He does indeed get killed. 00:17:27.470 --> 00:17:31.410 According to his son, he thought he had been sort of welcomed back into the 00:17:31.410 --> 00:17:36.730 fold, let bygones be bygones, and he was murdered. 00:17:36.910 --> 00:17:41.130 That his son was involved in the case against Alley Boy Persico. 00:17:41.870 --> 00:17:45.950 Andrew Orena told me that he had a chat with Itolo about this, 00:17:46.090 --> 00:17:48.610 about going back into the family. 00:17:48.630 --> 00:17:50.950 And he told him, you know, don't do it. 00:17:51.070 --> 00:17:53.970 Don't go in there, just steer clear. 00:17:54.370 --> 00:17:58.190 And, you know, in response, he heard like, no, everything looks good this time. 00:17:58.510 --> 00:18:02.810 You know, they're bringing me back in. And, you know, the Arenas had been out for some time. 00:18:03.030 --> 00:18:06.550 You know, this would have been in, I guess, the early 2000s. 00:18:06.830 --> 00:18:09.870 It was a bad decision, obviously, just a bad decision. 00:18:10.090 --> 00:18:15.610 And the Persco's are not the forgiving kind, I guess, would be a fair way of putting it, you know. 00:18:15.910 --> 00:18:19.610 And this guy thought that he was going to get a pass. And I think for, 00:18:19.810 --> 00:18:24.410 you know, like Andrew Orena would say, you know, if you're thinking you're going 00:18:24.410 --> 00:18:27.510 to get a pass from these guys, you're not really thinking clearly, you know. 00:18:27.650 --> 00:18:30.530 And he tried to talk him out of it, but unsuccessfully. 00:18:30.750 --> 00:18:35.410 So when little Vic goes to jail, he catches a case on a murder, 00:18:35.530 --> 00:18:38.230 I believe a murder case. Tommy O'Cara. 00:18:39.090 --> 00:18:45.470 He ran a restaurant out in Long Island. It was very popular with the mobsters out that way. 00:18:46.130 --> 00:18:50.190 You know, very mob-friendly place. Vickery and his sons used to eat there a lot. 00:18:50.940 --> 00:18:56.460 He also did some mob business, including sports gambling, that type of thing, take bets. 00:18:56.860 --> 00:19:01.940 And there was a raid on his place. When they get inside, Ossera, 00:19:02.120 --> 00:19:08.040 rather than having all his books for these different things set aside or held 00:19:08.040 --> 00:19:09.920 somewhere else, he has them in the restaurant. 00:19:10.140 --> 00:19:13.680 They're very damning documents about his gambling business. 00:19:13.800 --> 00:19:21.400 So he finds himself in kind of a precarious spot now. He's eventually kidnapped, killed, and buried. 00:19:21.700 --> 00:19:24.840 There's some dispute over who did what. 00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:28.360 Andrew Orena said to me that they weren't involved in this. 00:19:29.140 --> 00:19:32.920 John Gotti was involved as well. Sammy Gravano. 00:19:33.500 --> 00:19:37.700 I mean, it's sort of an, I don't want to say nondescript. We're talking about 00:19:37.700 --> 00:19:39.020 somebody who was murdered. 00:19:39.260 --> 00:19:44.680 But this was not a guy whose name appearing in the paper would have turned any heads. 00:19:44.980 --> 00:19:48.420 Yeah. And yeah, so this is what happens. 00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:53.160 It ends up that they're trying to say that this was a thing by the arenas. 00:19:53.320 --> 00:19:58.360 And again, John Gotti is kind of a mercurial guy too. 00:19:58.600 --> 00:20:03.020 He and Gravano discussed the hit, according to Gravano, and this guy is murdered 00:20:03.020 --> 00:20:06.040 and buried, and then he's finally recovered a few years later. 00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:08.420 And then I guess they turned somebody, I think. 00:20:08.780 --> 00:20:12.300 Yeah, somebody flipped. I can't remember who. I can't remember his name now, 00:20:12.380 --> 00:20:14.080 but I don't want to get too many names there. 00:20:14.180 --> 00:20:17.160 But somebody flipped and drug little Vic into it. 00:20:17.600 --> 00:20:22.380 And his kids, did they give you indication that he really, he wanted to take 00:20:22.380 --> 00:20:25.860 over the Colombo family and push the Persicos aside? 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:28.840 Or was this all kind of a misunderstanding? Yeah, absolutely. 00:20:29.060 --> 00:20:32.980 They were afraid he was going to, and, you know, one thing leads to another. 00:20:33.220 --> 00:20:36.720 Well, I think, I know that they were really kind of proud that their father 00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:40.500 had gotten to the top of the food chain within the family, you know? 00:20:40.500 --> 00:20:45.140 What i mean they were definitely not proponents of the war you know they were 00:20:45.140 --> 00:20:49.600 hoping to resolve things and like we've touched on this a couple times i i think 00:20:49.600 --> 00:20:54.880 that they believed close ties with the persicos would allow them to sit down. 00:20:55.720 --> 00:20:59.080 And and have a discussion yeah about you 00:20:59.080 --> 00:21:01.820 know what what could we do you know what i mean this is this is 00:21:01.820 --> 00:21:04.800 not the way to do this we know your family you know our family 00:21:04.800 --> 00:21:08.120 um we can come to a reasonable agreement 00:21:08.120 --> 00:21:12.280 clearly that was not the case i mean it's funny like one decision like that 00:21:12.280 --> 00:21:17.320 like you know we we don't want peace okay you know three years later i think 00:21:17.320 --> 00:21:21.760 if i have the numbers right there were like 122 people arrested on both sides 00:21:21.760 --> 00:21:25.000 of the war wow um yeah it's uh. 00:21:25.940 --> 00:21:30.820 I mean, dozens of people involved in shootings and that type of thing, 00:21:30.840 --> 00:21:33.420 all related to this kind of pointless fight, 00:21:33.860 --> 00:21:37.820 the last fight for control of a, I don't want to say dying mafia, 00:21:38.060 --> 00:21:41.900 but a foundering mafia at that point. Veds are starting already. 00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:46.460 The RICO prosecutions, which are obviously a total game changer. 00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:50.320 Yeah, and the commission trials were during all this, so I mean, 00:21:50.420 --> 00:21:53.880 they put away the heads of all the families during this. Yeah, yeah. 00:21:54.020 --> 00:21:58.200 And the other thing is when Irina got arrested, he was arrested at his girlfriend's 00:21:58.200 --> 00:22:00.620 house out in the Long Island suburbs. 00:22:00.940 --> 00:22:03.900 It seems like some trials take forever to get going. 00:22:04.060 --> 00:22:10.260 He was prosecuted very quickly, convicted very quickly and sentenced to a very 00:22:10.260 --> 00:22:14.700 long prison term very quickly. That was a case where he was sort of the first 00:22:14.700 --> 00:22:18.620 domino to fall, and certainly at least the first big domino to fall. 00:22:18.820 --> 00:22:21.860 They brought in a really good prosecutor to handle the case. 00:22:22.320 --> 00:22:25.760 I mean, Andrew talks about how he was having a panic attack, 00:22:25.960 --> 00:22:27.760 waiting for the verdict to come in. 00:22:28.040 --> 00:22:32.520 Bang, their whole world collapses, you know what I mean? He says in the book 00:22:32.520 --> 00:22:34.560 that after the verdict, Vic Jr. 00:22:35.040 --> 00:22:37.500 Tells all the people in the family who were there, like, you know, 00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:40.160 we're going to walk out with our heads held high. 00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:45.580 And that's what they did. They didn't come out moaning or decrying some crooked 00:22:45.580 --> 00:22:46.780 prosecution or anything. 00:22:47.740 --> 00:22:51.100 They walked out with their heads held high. I was on a wiretap once, 00:22:51.260 --> 00:22:56.140 and this guy, he was kind of a mob associate, and he was talking to a friend 00:22:56.140 --> 00:23:00.060 of his, and he was giving him advice because the guy was in trouble with some 00:23:00.060 --> 00:23:01.120 other people or something. 00:23:01.280 --> 00:23:04.720 And he was giving him advice, he said, and they were going to boot him out of 00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:05.660 a business or something. 00:23:06.100 --> 00:23:08.560 And so this Tommy Russo, he says, I'm going to tell you something. 00:23:08.560 --> 00:23:13.840 And he says, when they're running you out of town, he says, go out like you're leading a parade. 00:23:14.180 --> 00:23:19.220 So these guys, they're being run out of town. They went out like they were leading a parade. Yeah. 00:23:20.520 --> 00:23:23.320 Well, I was going to say, I think their whole idea was, right, 00:23:23.360 --> 00:23:25.680 we're not going to give these guys their pound of flesh. 00:23:25.860 --> 00:23:28.920 We're going to walk out with our heads held high and just, you know, 00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:33.980 unfortunately for the arenas, that was just the beginning rather than the end 00:23:33.980 --> 00:23:38.400 of the prosecutions they would face. So, yeah, what happened to these other brothers? 00:23:38.560 --> 00:23:43.400 They all had cases that they could catch, and they all committed a lot of crimes. 00:23:43.620 --> 00:23:48.280 So what happened to them? There was a big case in which the two brothers were 00:23:48.280 --> 00:23:53.820 defendants along with some other guys. And this was a federal prosecution case. 00:23:54.900 --> 00:24:01.360 And it was linked to a number of things. One of them was a gas operation where 00:24:01.360 --> 00:24:03.600 they were squeezing money from 00:24:03.600 --> 00:24:08.620 legitimate businesses and taking a percentage of the cash that came in. 00:24:08.820 --> 00:24:14.580 So they wind up, them and some other five, six, at a federal trial in Brooklyn. 00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:18.460 As it turns out, this is kind of the trial that changes everything. 00:24:18.780 --> 00:24:24.140 Before the trial begins, the prosecutor has a meeting in chambers with the defense 00:24:24.140 --> 00:24:29.960 lawyers and the prosecutors, the chief prosecutor acknowledges a variety of 00:24:29.960 --> 00:24:33.580 different interactions between Linda Vecchio and Greg Scarpa. 00:24:33.740 --> 00:24:39.540 This is not a usual thing to happen, you know, and especially right before a trial is about to begin. 00:24:39.940 --> 00:24:47.120 And so now I think, you know, think, you know, Johnny Orena said that this gave everybody a big boost. 00:24:47.120 --> 00:24:52.540 Their argument was that Scarpel was getting information from Lynn DeVecchio 00:24:52.540 --> 00:24:55.420 about different things, a variety of different things. 00:24:55.440 --> 00:25:00.280 If I recall correctly, one of the things that was alleged was that DeVecchio 00:25:00.280 --> 00:25:03.820 had given information about where the Orena hideout was. 00:25:03.980 --> 00:25:08.920 When the trial starts, these guys are like, okay, we got really good lawyers. 00:25:09.260 --> 00:25:11.380 We got something to hang our hats on here. 00:25:12.140 --> 00:25:15.460 Prosecution was along the lines of, you know, at this point. 00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:23.360 Don't don't let this steer you away from what this trial is about kind of thing you know what i mean. 00:25:24.390 --> 00:25:29.050 There's this whole weird thing that happens. Things are coming to a close, 00:25:29.070 --> 00:25:32.130 and the jury begins deliberations. 00:25:33.050 --> 00:25:36.590 Andrew Orena is very, he was telling me, he's very nervous. They don't know 00:25:36.590 --> 00:25:38.370 what's going on. They're waiting to see what happens. 00:25:38.670 --> 00:25:43.770 And the jury sends out a request for an FBI document. 00:25:44.110 --> 00:25:48.710 The document was never introduced at the trial, but the jurors, 00:25:48.810 --> 00:25:53.950 during their deliberations, figured out amongst themselves that this was something 00:25:53.950 --> 00:25:58.990 they thought they needed to see as part of the trial, you know? 00:25:59.290 --> 00:26:02.650 So the prosecutors turn over all the paperwork. 00:26:03.790 --> 00:26:10.170 It leans in their favor. The jurors go back to resume their deliberations. 00:26:11.050 --> 00:26:16.590 I mean, even now, I think, incredibly enough, they're all acquitted. 00:26:16.910 --> 00:26:20.390 I mean, the judge in the case, Judge Corman, Federal Judge Corman, 00:26:20.890 --> 00:26:25.770 actually told the arenas before the deliberations continued that if the jury, 00:26:25.810 --> 00:26:28.730 I mean, yeah, that if the jury found the defendants guilty. 00:26:29.430 --> 00:26:32.910 He would vacate the convictions in order of mistrial based on this document 00:26:32.910 --> 00:26:33.830 that had been introduced. 00:26:34.450 --> 00:26:40.110 So if the jurors had gone the other way on this paperwork, the judge would have 00:26:40.110 --> 00:26:41.270 given them another shot. 00:26:41.950 --> 00:26:46.290 Johnny was telling me, I mean, these are things you don't think about if you're not in the mob, I guess. 00:26:46.290 --> 00:26:50.490 But johnny was saying they were taken back to the federal lockup him and his brother, 00:26:51.130 --> 00:26:57.150 when they went in they were like greeted with raucous cheers by the other inmates 00:26:57.150 --> 00:27:00.390 that you know here are two guys that actually beat the government you know what 00:27:00.390 --> 00:27:06.370 i mean really yeah that's unusual that's that'd be key it really is you know 00:27:06.370 --> 00:27:10.690 and uh yeah so bruce bruce cutler um, 00:27:11.250 --> 00:27:12.970 you know, who was Gotti's attorney, 00:27:13.490 --> 00:27:20.330 came down to visit them at the prison after the verdict. 00:27:20.950 --> 00:27:24.110 And he basically, like I said to these, the two of them, like, 00:27:24.170 --> 00:27:27.770 you know, what you have just witnessed is something that will never be seen 00:27:27.770 --> 00:27:29.530 again and has never been seen before. 00:27:29.770 --> 00:27:34.830 That you guys beat this case is just, it's astounding, you know? It is. 00:27:35.150 --> 00:27:41.150 And I guess the jury, it's just enough to cause a reasonable doubt. 00:27:41.350 --> 00:27:43.590 I mean, that's what a good defense lawyer is always trying to do, 00:27:43.610 --> 00:27:46.970 just bring something in to create any kind of reasonable doubt. 00:27:47.150 --> 00:27:52.950 And I guess the interactions between DeBecchio and Scarpa created that enough 00:27:52.950 --> 00:28:01.810 doubt and the other witnesses that they just couldn't bring themselves to convict him. I would assume. 00:28:01.890 --> 00:28:03.710 What would be your take on that? 00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:07.100 Well, I mean, the whole thing is just so strange, like, you know, 00:28:07.220 --> 00:28:12.020 a jury sending out a note like, hey, where's this document that we've never seen? 00:28:12.260 --> 00:28:14.480 You know what I mean? How did they know about that document? 00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:17.480 I did have that question. I'm glad you brought that up. How do you think they 00:28:17.480 --> 00:28:18.820 knew about that document even? 00:28:19.320 --> 00:28:23.340 I guess during the course of negotiations, it came up and they requested it. 00:28:25.220 --> 00:28:28.760 They deciphered during their, that this thing should exist. 00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:32.880 There should be a document like this that exists. I see. And so they send out 00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:35.120 a note saying, we'd like to look at this. 00:28:35.320 --> 00:28:37.960 And when they do, they come back with the other verdict. 00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:41.780 The Arenas, or I should say not all the Arenas, but Andrew Orena had some of 00:28:41.780 --> 00:28:46.680 the jurors over his house afterwards for like a little celebration. Yeah, yeah. 00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:50.480 And reading your book, I noticed that then when they're trying to do appeals 00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:54.780 for their dad, they're frantically trying to bring this relationship in and 00:28:54.780 --> 00:29:00.040 they cannot get that reintroduced to help with their dad's case. 00:29:00.040 --> 00:29:03.880 Because it's like this relationship between DiVecchio and Scarpa, 00:29:04.020 --> 00:29:08.180 that's like a magic get-out-of-jail-free card, it seemed to me like for a while. 00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:15.500 Yeah, it was definitely, I guess, the number one choice of defendants trying 00:29:15.500 --> 00:29:17.360 to beat their cases. Really? 00:29:18.620 --> 00:29:22.080 Although in the end of that, right, DiVecchio beat his case too. 00:29:22.320 --> 00:29:25.260 Yeah, I was going to say, I wonder what DiVecchio has to say about this. 00:29:25.260 --> 00:29:29.360 He's written a book. I need to get that book. And I've got another book here 00:29:29.360 --> 00:29:35.420 that really goes into that depth by this Peter Lance, Deal with the Devil. Yes, right, right. 00:29:35.740 --> 00:29:40.540 So it's really got a lot. I've just kind of scratched the surface of it. 00:29:40.620 --> 00:29:44.140 I tried to get old of him, but he never did respond. I don't think he does podcasts. 00:29:44.300 --> 00:29:45.380 I've never seen him on one. 00:29:46.180 --> 00:29:53.660 Well, now, hold on a second. I got a hold of him, and he got back to me. Yeah, DeVecchio. 00:29:54.180 --> 00:29:59.200 Which I was like, well, I'll tell you the story. There's a website you can visit 00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:01.160 if you're working as a journalist. 00:30:02.190 --> 00:30:07.770 And retired FBI agents, you can reach them this way. 00:30:08.330 --> 00:30:10.970 Somebody at the FBI probably steered me that way. 00:30:11.830 --> 00:30:18.270 So I put up this thing. I get a message back from one guy who was involved in 00:30:18.270 --> 00:30:23.510 the arrest of Carmine Sessa and one of the Persco's outside St. 00:30:23.630 --> 00:30:28.690 Patrick's Cathedral, which was like a huge arrest as the war was winding down. 00:30:29.490 --> 00:30:32.350 And this guy had some really good story 00:30:32.350 --> 00:30:34.950 to tell about how they're staking out you know 00:30:34.950 --> 00:30:38.150 the steps of saint patrick's cathedral and these four gangsters 00:30:38.150 --> 00:30:41.890 are planning what they're going to do next and they swoop in and arrest them 00:30:41.890 --> 00:30:45.550 all i was like well you're not going to do better than that you know what i 00:30:45.550 --> 00:30:50.470 mean it's not yeah the next thing i know i get a message from linda vecchio 00:30:50.470 --> 00:30:53.550 which basically is kind of like saying i understand you're looking for me and 00:30:53.550 --> 00:30:56.330 i'd be happy to talk Oh, well, cool. 00:30:56.350 --> 00:31:00.390 You did get a chance to get his take on all this. 00:31:00.570 --> 00:31:07.590 I guess there was an internal investigation, which dragged on for a couple of years, and he beat that. 00:31:07.810 --> 00:31:09.790 There were no charges, I should say. 00:31:10.510 --> 00:31:17.210 And then, you know, 2007, you know, the Brooklyn District Attorney just announces, 00:31:17.430 --> 00:31:22.350 you know, we're going to charge him with four murders. 00:31:22.350 --> 00:31:25.050 Um and you know at this point de vecchio has been out 00:31:25.050 --> 00:31:27.810 of the spotlight for some time you know he's living down in 00:31:27.810 --> 00:31:33.450 florida yeah you know and he writes in his book how uh he comes back to brooklyn 00:31:33.450 --> 00:31:38.030 and they have him in handcuffs in an office in the brooklyn da's office you 00:31:38.030 --> 00:31:43.790 know and you know he's charged with four murder cases uh one was uh the murder 00:31:43.790 --> 00:31:47.330 of mary barry yeah uh who was i think. 00:31:48.370 --> 00:31:50.970 Alphonse Persico's girlfriend at the time? 00:31:51.210 --> 00:31:57.190 His girlfriend and he went into jail and he supposedly they sent some guys over 00:31:57.190 --> 00:32:02.030 and took all of her, you know, the jewelry he'd given her and they cut her out. He cut her off. 00:32:02.370 --> 00:32:05.350 Then it acted like they were going to give her a job because he was worried 00:32:05.350 --> 00:32:08.770 that she could talk about it. Right, exactly. 00:32:09.650 --> 00:32:12.550 And Scarpa and Scarpa's son Scarpa killed her. 00:32:12.730 --> 00:32:16.090 There's no doubt about it. Scarpa's son was he testified 00:32:16.090 --> 00:32:19.030 that himself and of course 00:32:19.030 --> 00:32:22.130 scarpa bought his way out of that with uh his relationship with 00:32:22.130 --> 00:32:25.170 the bureau one of the murders he he got free of 00:32:25.170 --> 00:32:33.170 because of the vecchio but that linda shiro claims that the vecchio said you 00:32:33.170 --> 00:32:39.210 need to do something about barry and and maybe gave him an address with kind 00:32:39.210 --> 00:32:43.150 of a you know a wink and a nod kind of a thing right right right right, 00:32:44.030 --> 00:32:49.050 There was another friend of the younger Persico's, Patrick Torco, 00:32:49.410 --> 00:32:55.530 who was killed because Scarpa thought he was going to rat on his son at some point. 00:32:56.670 --> 00:32:59.510 Uh lorenzo lampazzi i hope i'm 00:32:59.510 --> 00:33:02.450 pronouncing that correctly was a guy on the Orena side during 00:33:02.450 --> 00:33:05.370 the war he was charged with that murder as well 00:33:05.370 --> 00:33:09.150 and then there was another friend of uh serpico jr 00:33:09.150 --> 00:33:12.610 serpico god almighty persico jr yeah 00:33:12.610 --> 00:33:15.530 probably had slipped there yeah exactly and uh 00:33:15.530 --> 00:33:18.470 there was some concern he was going to become a born-again 00:33:18.470 --> 00:33:21.410 christian and then at that point if he finds god 00:33:21.410 --> 00:33:24.270 perhaps we'll find and uh someone he can tell the whole story 00:33:24.270 --> 00:33:29.010 or two about what's going on so he's the uh he's the fourth victim and and again 00:33:29.010 --> 00:33:34.650 d'avecchio is charged in those cases with you know working with uh persico and 00:33:34.650 --> 00:33:38.950 so when he goes to trial i mean look it was uh it was insane when the trial 00:33:38.950 --> 00:33:42.150 started you know what i mean it's it's out in brooklyn the courthouse is packed, 00:33:43.090 --> 00:33:47.710 yeah i mean here you have this guy who i think at one point was regarded as 00:33:47.710 --> 00:33:51.830 one of the fbi's best agents he did instruction for incoming guys you know what 00:33:51.830 --> 00:33:55.850 i mean and they do the internal investigation, and he comes out at the other 00:33:55.850 --> 00:33:57.490 end of that with no charges. 00:33:57.810 --> 00:34:02.470 And so here's the last big swing they're going to take at this guy with Charles 00:34:02.470 --> 00:34:06.410 Hines, Joe Hines, and the Brooklyn prosecutors. 00:34:07.170 --> 00:34:10.550 And then the whole case fell apart in one day. 00:34:12.370 --> 00:34:17.810 That's what I read about it. They somehow discredited a witness, 00:34:17.950 --> 00:34:19.610 and I can't remember what it was now. 00:34:20.310 --> 00:34:26.170 Actually, I know the answer to this one. Oh, good. I know, but I forgot all of a sudden. Yeah. 00:34:27.150 --> 00:34:31.250 She testifies, among the people who are there are two reporters, 00:34:31.750 --> 00:34:39.390 Tom Robbins and Jerry Capici. They both worked, like me, at the Daily News at 00:34:39.390 --> 00:34:40.810 some point. Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah. 00:34:41.090 --> 00:34:43.670 And they had done interviews with her. 00:34:45.040 --> 00:34:47.780 Maybe like 10 years earlier yeah that was 00:34:47.780 --> 00:34:50.900 some time with scarf with scarper's girlfriend 00:34:50.900 --> 00:34:54.160 linda shiro correct and uh they had done interviews with 00:34:54.160 --> 00:34:57.820 her for possible maybe a book project or something yeah uh 00:34:57.820 --> 00:35:00.800 and it all fell apart um but they they saved 00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:05.420 the tapes and so when she testifies they get in touch with each other and uh 00:35:05.420 --> 00:35:12.180 they find that they find the old tapes and uh what she says on the tapes is 00:35:12.180 --> 00:35:15.280 far different than the damning testimony 00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:18.960 that she gave under oath the day before, or I guess the same day. 00:35:19.160 --> 00:35:23.200 And so when they got to court the next day, the case was dismissed. 00:35:23.800 --> 00:35:28.580 The judge, if I recall correctly, told Linda Shearer, the next thing you should 00:35:28.580 --> 00:35:30.600 do is find yourself a defense attorney. 00:35:31.260 --> 00:35:37.560 And so their last big shot, Linda Vecchio, collapsed like the old house of cards 00:35:37.560 --> 00:35:42.340 in the course of 24 hours. I actually like this. This is a good little touch that I like. 00:35:43.080 --> 00:35:46.240 He went out to celebrate at Spark Steakhouse. 00:35:50.820 --> 00:35:56.860 So I guess they walked a walk past the old Castellano parking space, you know? Yeah. 00:35:57.900 --> 00:36:05.920 That guy, he had a sense of irony, maybe, a sense of history, 00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:08.180 a good sense of history, you know? 00:36:08.780 --> 00:36:11.540 Yeah well i mean look uh again i did 00:36:11.540 --> 00:36:15.120 not expect to hear from him uh he gave 00:36:15.120 --> 00:36:18.120 me oh yeah i'm surprised myself he answered 00:36:18.120 --> 00:36:21.160 all questions uh he was very insistent he 00:36:21.160 --> 00:36:25.160 had done nothing wrong much like you said it was a great surprise to me to hear 00:36:25.160 --> 00:36:31.540 from him but uh he was super cooperative he didn't blow off any questions you 00:36:31.540 --> 00:36:35.240 know i learned a little bit about his uh earlier career which was interesting 00:36:35.240 --> 00:36:40.680 he was a very highly regarded agent um and i believe there were like three or four dozen, 00:36:41.450 --> 00:36:46.310 FBI agents who filled the courtroom on that first day of, uh, 00:36:46.670 --> 00:36:48.450 of opening statements and testimony. 00:36:48.790 --> 00:36:53.770 So there were guys that he worked with who, uh, who had his back and, and who backed him up. 00:36:53.910 --> 00:36:57.430 Well, it's, like I said, you get in and working with these informants, 00:36:57.510 --> 00:37:01.690 the really good guys, the ones that there's no stuff and are good criminals there. 00:37:01.970 --> 00:37:06.950 It's, it's a constant battle with them to, for the, who's going to be in control 00:37:06.950 --> 00:37:10.670 and, And, you know, they can, they can then use you in the end. 00:37:12.590 --> 00:37:17.290 They're going to use you or anybody else that can. I guess the secret is letting 00:37:17.290 --> 00:37:19.070 them think that they're using you. 00:37:19.210 --> 00:37:22.470 Right. And actually you're using them, right? That's the secret. 00:37:22.630 --> 00:37:26.550 It takes a really skilled person to do that. I imagine it would. Yeah. 00:37:26.790 --> 00:37:29.970 Really skilled. I'll tell you why. One quick little story. 00:37:30.230 --> 00:37:35.110 Here's the kind of things these guys will do. I was, I met this guy at a strip 00:37:35.110 --> 00:37:42.010 club, right? So we go in there and meet another guy who, who was another policeman 00:37:42.010 --> 00:37:44.630 from another department who had actually introduced me to this guy. 00:37:44.750 --> 00:37:48.530 And, and he, he wasn't really a mob informant, but he was a professional criminal 00:37:48.530 --> 00:37:52.550 and he knew everybody in that substrata, that professional criminal, 00:37:52.750 --> 00:37:56.890 you know, connected with the mob on one time and knew all the fences and, 00:37:56.970 --> 00:38:01.650 and he knew all these people, but he was always, you know, pulling at me. 00:38:01.650 --> 00:38:07.030 It is the kind of guy that even went to junior college and took law enforcement 00:38:07.030 --> 00:38:09.710 courses to find out what the police were doing. 00:38:09.970 --> 00:38:13.670 He had a stolen car operation himself. We're sitting in a strip club, 00:38:13.810 --> 00:38:15.090 you know, having a merry old time. 00:38:15.150 --> 00:38:18.370 And he calls one of the girls over and he gives her some money and she leaves. 00:38:18.470 --> 00:38:21.050 And I'm watching. What the hell's going on? 00:38:21.190 --> 00:38:27.210 She goes over and sits down and starts doing lap dances and talking with a guy 00:38:27.210 --> 00:38:32.050 with a snap-on tool uniform. And then my guy, he disappears. 00:38:32.890 --> 00:38:37.970 And I thought, oh, shit. As we saw, I remember seeing a snap-on tool truck when 00:38:37.970 --> 00:38:41.830 we pulled in the parking lot. And my guy goes out there and he comes back a 00:38:41.830 --> 00:38:44.230 little bit and he said, hey, he said, there wasn't anything in that truck. 00:38:44.230 --> 00:38:47.550 I'm going, oh, my God. Oh, my God. 00:38:47.890 --> 00:38:52.870 You know, they do stuff like that to you, to try to pull you in a little bit. 00:38:52.950 --> 00:38:55.270 You know, you'd say something about, oh, it's a nice watch you got there. 00:38:55.410 --> 00:38:57.870 You want one? I got two or three more just like it. 00:39:00.150 --> 00:39:02.990 So it's a constant battle let me tell you, 00:39:05.330 --> 00:39:11.230 yeah larry this has been great this has really been fun and uh interesting story uh, 00:39:12.150 --> 00:39:15.290 Maybe not the last mob book that's ever written, but I'll tell you what, 00:39:15.390 --> 00:39:18.450 there's been a plethora of it just in the last few years. 00:39:18.950 --> 00:39:22.730 Little Rick and the Great Mafia War. Guys, you better get this. 00:39:22.890 --> 00:39:27.610 It's an interesting, easy read, and I promise you, 00:39:27.650 --> 00:39:32.770 you've got to learn about a little chunk of the New York or the Colombo War 00:39:32.770 --> 00:39:39.410 and the Colombo family and the later years of the mob before they really, 00:39:39.570 --> 00:39:42.130 you know, the 90s, when it just took a night. 00:39:42.150 --> 00:39:46.350 Nosedive, you've got to learn a lot of stuff that you didn't know before. I sure did. 00:39:46.990 --> 00:39:49.650 Yeah, well, listen, thank you for having me. All right, Larry. 00:39:50.110 --> 00:39:56.170 I should leave with Len DiVecchio's great line, which supposedly set off his coworkers. 00:39:56.590 --> 00:39:58.230 We're going to win this thing. 00:40:01.490 --> 00:40:06.830 Was that the Columbo, the Persicos winning the Columbo War, or was that the 00:40:06.830 --> 00:40:12.950 FBI? Well, that was always the bone of contention. He insisted that he was saying 00:40:12.950 --> 00:40:15.690 that, you know, we, the FBI are going to win this war. 00:40:15.830 --> 00:40:18.070 And some of his colleagues went the other way. Yeah. 00:40:18.450 --> 00:40:22.870 And you'll always have a couple of colleagues you work with that think the worst 00:40:22.870 --> 00:40:25.750 of you are going to go around and say bad things about you. 00:40:25.830 --> 00:40:28.430 That's another problem when you're doing this kind of thing. 00:40:28.590 --> 00:40:34.310 And you're the stick and other guys are jealous. And so they're going to somehow try to discredit you. 00:40:34.550 --> 00:40:38.550 So that's another hazard of the business. 00:40:39.310 --> 00:40:43.430 All right. Larry McShane. Thanks a lot, Larry. I really appreciate you coming on the show. 00:40:44.170 --> 00:40:47.490 Thanks for reaching out. Take care, man. All right. See you. Bye. Bye-bye. 00:40:48.090 --> 00:40:52.890 Well, guys, that was a great story. It's a really interesting little chapter 00:40:52.890 --> 00:40:54.810 in mob history in New York city. 00:40:55.070 --> 00:40:58.150 And I hope you get that book. Larry's written. He's a good guy. 00:40:58.290 --> 00:40:59.390 I really like talking to him. 00:41:00.090 --> 00:41:05.170 He's, uh, he, he's extremely helpful and he sent me a couple of three extra copies of the book. 00:41:05.290 --> 00:41:08.770 So I've got a couple of friends here that I'm going to be giving those two. 00:41:09.290 --> 00:41:14.050 Don't forget, I like to ride motorcycles. So if you are out there in a big SUV. 00:41:14.890 --> 00:41:17.170 Watch what you're doing and watch your motorcycles. 00:41:17.810 --> 00:41:23.330 If you have a problem with drugs or alcohol, be sure and go to the website of the VA. 00:41:23.370 --> 00:41:27.130 That is, if you've been in the service, if not, there's other places for help 00:41:27.130 --> 00:41:31.610 out there, but you got a problem with PTSD and you've been in the service, go to the VA website. 00:41:32.110 --> 00:41:34.950 And with that, you know, if you've got a problem with drugs or alcohol, 00:41:35.130 --> 00:41:39.630 go to Anthony Ruggiano's website or his YouTube page, uh. 00:41:40.740 --> 00:41:43.640 I can't remember the name of it all of a sudden. That's okay. You can figure it out. 00:41:44.020 --> 00:41:47.560 Not get a hold of me. He's got a hotline number. And if you're on YouTube, 00:41:47.800 --> 00:41:49.480 you'll see that hotline number right now. 00:41:49.720 --> 00:41:54.880 He's got a hotline number, and he's a drug and alcohol counselor down in Florida. So go see Anthony. 00:41:55.540 --> 00:41:59.240 He'll straighten you out, get you in recovery. If you've got a problem with 00:41:59.240 --> 00:42:04.200 gambling, go to 1-800-BETS-OFF in Missouri. I don't know what you have in other 00:42:04.200 --> 00:42:06.860 states, if that's just a state-by-state thing or what. 00:42:06.980 --> 00:42:10.340 But there's help for gambling. And you can have problems with gambling. 00:42:10.920 --> 00:42:15.680 Like starting off with bankruptcy and loan sharks coming after you and shit like that. 00:42:15.880 --> 00:42:19.280 So there's help available for all those different things. 00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:23.800 Don't forget, I have books and movies out there for sale. 00:42:24.160 --> 00:42:29.320 One last little sales pitch for myself. I've got, and also a pitch for a review. 00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:33.240 I'd like to get some reviews on that New York Mafia book I did, 00:42:33.340 --> 00:42:37.400 Big Apple Mafia and the Five Families or something like that. 00:42:37.400 --> 00:42:42.900 I just looked for my New York book, and I got the Chicago Outfit book, Windy City Mafia. 00:42:43.340 --> 00:42:48.200 And my book, you'll see over my shoulder here, is the Leaving Vegas, 00:42:48.320 --> 00:42:51.900 how FBI wiretaps in and mob domination in Las Vegas casinos. 00:42:52.360 --> 00:43:01.560 And I've got my documentaries. I've got three great mob documentaries all streaming on Amazon for $1.99. 00:43:02.720 --> 00:43:06.080 And other than that you know you might want to check my uh gangland 00:43:06.080 --> 00:43:09.040 wire podcast group out uh if you 00:43:09.040 --> 00:43:11.720 can't it's a private group now we had to do that to get rid 00:43:11.720 --> 00:43:14.540 of the scammers and spammers and all that and 00:43:14.540 --> 00:43:18.380 then start went private and then ace people out so if you can't quite figure 00:43:18.380 --> 00:43:23.060 it out well get hold of me and i'll send you a link and don't ever hesitate 00:43:23.060 --> 00:43:26.980 to ask me any questions you make comments on my youtube ask me questions you 00:43:26.980 --> 00:43:29.940 know i like to interact with people and maybe hear your stories and you can 00:43:29.940 --> 00:43:32.620 tell your stories on that too. So thanks a lot, guys.