WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:03.497 Well, hey, all you wiretappers out there. Good to be back here in studio of Gangland Wire. 00:00:03.617 --> 00:00:08.597 This is Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective and later sergeant. 00:00:08.657 --> 00:00:16.677 I'm back here with another guest, an author and a fellow mob podcaster, RJ Roger. Welcome, RJ. 00:00:17.397 --> 00:00:22.777 Thank you for having me, Gary. And I mean that this is not just camera stuff. 00:00:22.857 --> 00:00:25.457 I always wanted to have a discussion with you. 00:00:25.657 --> 00:00:32.097 I remember reaching out to you on Twitter once over before I even started working with Michael. 00:00:32.317 --> 00:00:34.977 And I just, as a respecter of what you do, because you have an elegant, 00:00:35.457 --> 00:00:41.697 classy podcast and in what we do, it ain't the norm. So I'm a major respecter. 00:00:41.697 --> 00:00:44.777 Well thank you thank you i i 00:00:44.777 --> 00:00:47.577 kind of back i didn't understand that twitter thing back 00:00:47.577 --> 00:00:50.417 there but i have some vague memory that i don't 00:00:50.417 --> 00:00:53.117 know anyhow well finally we meet and we 00:00:53.117 --> 00:00:58.437 just had a nice little discussion about mutual mutual woes in the podcast industry 00:00:58.437 --> 00:01:03.377 and personal uh personal things to get to know each other a little bit and guys 00:01:03.377 --> 00:01:07.837 uh i assure you rj knows what he's talking about and he's a true gentleman and 00:01:07.837 --> 00:01:11.977 he has a great podcast you know uh you know i'm the one i have to take credit for this, RJ. 00:01:12.177 --> 00:01:17.017 I'm the one that got Mikey scars or Michael D. Leonardo on the air the very 00:01:17.017 --> 00:01:21.197 first time by happenstance and luck in a way I find out, 00:01:21.297 --> 00:01:25.297 but then I knew it was, it was just a lucky just somehow he just felt a certain 00:01:25.297 --> 00:01:27.477 way one day and he said, yeah, I'll come on your podcast. 00:01:27.477 --> 00:01:31.237 And now RJ has Mikey scars or Michael D. 00:01:31.477 --> 00:01:36.017 Leonardo on his podcast regularly. So you want to check that podcast out. 00:01:36.237 --> 00:01:40.577 Uh, tell us just a little bit about your podcast, RJ, so guys can find it 00:01:40.577 --> 00:01:43.257 But you are right i always get 00:01:43.257 --> 00:01:46.397 i always take the credit i brought michael scars out of the shadows 00:01:46.397 --> 00:01:49.177 yeah and i 00:01:49.177 --> 00:01:53.337 got that line from um coast of notion news that was like his headline he said 00:01:53.337 --> 00:01:58.337 rj roger brings michael de leonardo from the shadows and but the truth is you 00:01:58.337 --> 00:02:03.257 were the first guy to have to do a discussion with him i just so you took the 00:02:03.257 --> 00:02:06.537 the ball up the field and i took it over the you. 00:02:06.537 --> 00:02:07.677 Took it over the goal line 00:02:07.677 --> 00:02:11.517 Um so 00:02:11.517 --> 00:02:14.657 as far as the show with michael and i i was a original 00:02:14.657 --> 00:02:21.117 was doing a solo mob podcast and i made a production i made a show on michael 00:02:21.117 --> 00:02:26.257 and it made its way to him through his son he liked it he reached out to me 00:02:26.257 --> 00:02:32.057 we became friends so that's a fast forward very fast way of how we met and for 00:02:32.057 --> 00:02:34.257 the first several months We were just friends. 00:02:34.757 --> 00:02:38.717 I met him in person. I flew out to see him. We spent some time together. And we were kind of... 00:02:39.856 --> 00:02:43.356 Talking about some different things. And eventually we came together and made 00:02:43.356 --> 00:02:45.156 an agreement on working together. 00:02:45.316 --> 00:02:49.436 Took him a while to want to come out and do like a long form show. 00:02:49.736 --> 00:02:53.656 But, but again, it wasn't our relationships, not a business relate. 00:02:54.276 --> 00:02:58.736 It wasn't a business relationship. We were friends that started a show. 00:02:59.036 --> 00:03:03.376 We wasn't business guys that became friends. We were friends first and then 00:03:03.376 --> 00:03:06.016 started the show. So we're at, we're on YouTube. 00:03:07.436 --> 00:03:14.976 You can search Mikey Scars Find our show Our YouTube show We're primarily on Patreon now Same name, 00:03:14.996 --> 00:03:20.236 Mikey Scars We do 8 shows a month on Patreon And it's been We've done a lot 00:03:20.236 --> 00:03:24.896 of really good stuff We talk about a lot of things in his life And he goes back 00:03:24.896 --> 00:03:27.356 In my opinion, the last live and made, 00:03:28.376 --> 00:03:33.396 Major Five family figure that's out there His name goes back to Sicily over 00:03:33.396 --> 00:03:39.816 100 years He has a long, long history He's three, four generations deep inside of Cosa Nostra. 00:03:39.996 --> 00:03:47.356 So it's been fun to talk with a guy who has so much understanding of the life in a more nuanced way. 00:03:47.676 --> 00:03:51.996 Yeah, he really does. And he's articulate enough that he can really, 00:03:52.176 --> 00:03:55.416 as you say, a nuanced way, he can tell the story. 00:03:55.616 --> 00:04:02.336 And so, you know, now you've done this book here, The Don, 36 Rules of the Boss. 00:04:03.876 --> 00:04:08.116 R.J. Roger. Now, is this your first book? I'm not sure. I can't remember. 00:04:08.616 --> 00:04:13.756 Yes, it's my first official book. That's a major release book, 00:04:13.896 --> 00:04:15.476 traditional published book, first one. 00:04:16.796 --> 00:04:22.656 Didn't you tell me that you also used some stuff from Michael in your book to 00:04:22.656 --> 00:04:27.416 help explain some of these rules of the boss? Because he's got firsthand knowledge of that. 00:04:27.556 --> 00:04:31.636 That's not like just reading it from somebody else who got it from somebody 00:04:31.636 --> 00:04:35.176 else. He's got firsthand knowledge of working with a boss. 00:04:35.576 --> 00:04:41.236 Now, the first, the 30, so what I had done, I wrote the 36 rules before I even 00:04:41.236 --> 00:04:43.396 met Michael, years and years before I met Michael. 00:04:43.556 --> 00:04:49.276 That was really, I had this theory on 36 rules of a mafia don, 00:04:49.416 --> 00:04:53.956 of a boss, just a boss, not a captain or underboss. I looked at, 00:04:53.976 --> 00:04:58.256 you know, the history of the American mob bosses in the five families. 00:04:58.736 --> 00:05:04.016 And I've researched their whole life, like the social behavior study, essentially. 00:05:04.296 --> 00:05:08.656 And I didn't look at the mafia for what they claim to be. 00:05:08.856 --> 00:05:12.736 We're honored society. We only kill our own. We don't deal in drugs. 00:05:12.736 --> 00:05:16.136 We don't touch a boss. You're untouchable. You can't kill without permission. 00:05:16.296 --> 00:05:21.776 All the stuff that they claim to be, that's not these 36 rules because a lot of that is. 00:05:22.824 --> 00:05:28.024 Fluff. It's not real. So I looked at their actual behaviors. 00:05:28.284 --> 00:05:29.924 Like what did they actually do? 00:05:30.244 --> 00:05:33.564 How did they actually treat people? Were they truly an honored society? 00:05:33.744 --> 00:05:39.484 So I looked at their history and what I found is 36 common things that you could 00:05:39.484 --> 00:05:43.804 find among the leaders of the five families. So I wrote that theory. 00:05:44.004 --> 00:05:48.804 That theory that I completed was what I was taking around. Michael didn't, 00:05:48.824 --> 00:05:50.604 I didn't even know Michael yet, that theory. 00:05:50.804 --> 00:05:55.684 And then when I met my agent and producer, he said, you know, 00:05:55.804 --> 00:05:59.684 we need to do more storytelling and give more examples so readers can understand 00:05:59.684 --> 00:06:01.684 how these rules are applied. 00:06:01.684 --> 00:06:05.844 So we began to re-edit the book and re-craft the book. 00:06:06.144 --> 00:06:10.784 And that's what you have here. And some of Michael's quotes and a couple of 00:06:10.784 --> 00:06:14.684 things he said, I used in some of the historical narratives that I put in the book. 00:06:14.844 --> 00:06:18.204 But largely, I met Michael late down the line. 00:06:18.344 --> 00:06:21.444 I was done with the book, really. I put a couple of quotes and things in, 00:06:21.564 --> 00:06:25.604 but I met Michael when the book was already completed. Even this version of it. 00:06:26.724 --> 00:06:30.064 You know, I'm looking at some of these rules, like use a skilled man to your 00:06:30.064 --> 00:06:33.244 benefit. It's kind of like as a sergeant in the police department, 00:06:33.264 --> 00:06:35.524 I had a tax squad or had an intelligence unit. 00:06:35.764 --> 00:06:40.324 I would try to find skilled people to bring them in and then use them to my 00:06:40.324 --> 00:06:44.004 benefit, if you will, because I'm the sergeant, I'm the boss here. 00:06:44.204 --> 00:06:47.784 I get the credit and then my captain gets the credit, too, because you have 00:06:47.784 --> 00:06:49.004 this really skilled guy. 00:06:49.224 --> 00:06:56.264 So a lot of these rules are just what somebody in business would use, it appears to be. 00:06:56.904 --> 00:07:01.304 Well, I'm glad you said that because I'm not so into the mafia. 00:07:01.764 --> 00:07:05.464 I like to read about the subject a little bit and watch the movies, 00:07:05.464 --> 00:07:11.704 but I wouldn't have spent 12 years of my life working on a mob book necessarily 00:07:11.704 --> 00:07:15.684 that has no moral value or something that's not beneficial to people. 00:07:15.684 --> 00:07:21.684 A regular working Joe, a guy like yourself, a guy that's a police officer or 00:07:21.684 --> 00:07:26.164 a guy who's working in some kind of legitimate business. 00:07:26.344 --> 00:07:30.584 So the concept behind the whole thing is exactly what you said. 00:07:30.584 --> 00:07:34.184 People all people are not gangsters but 00:07:34.184 --> 00:07:40.124 gangsters are people and there's a particular way in a capitalistic society 00:07:40.124 --> 00:07:46.744 a society that respects capitalism and has a hierarchy structure of you start 00:07:46.744 --> 00:07:53.884 at a entry level and through your your service you rise up within it and you. 00:07:54.611 --> 00:07:58.471 In that type of model, the rules are kind of all the same. 00:07:58.791 --> 00:08:04.511 So in the mafia, you start as an associate and you have to prove yourself and 00:08:04.511 --> 00:08:07.851 become more skilled to rise up to the head of it. 00:08:08.131 --> 00:08:11.411 And that's the same thing if you're coming out of college and you get an entry 00:08:11.411 --> 00:08:15.871 level job and through service, you rise up and you prove yourself to be worthy 00:08:15.871 --> 00:08:18.651 of maybe being the CEO one day or the president one day. 00:08:18.951 --> 00:08:24.251 And a lot of what you find, that process, it's the same. 00:08:24.611 --> 00:08:29.991 It doesn't matter who's rising in. You can be an illegitimate enterprise or 00:08:29.991 --> 00:08:32.111 something that's illegit. 00:08:32.371 --> 00:08:35.451 Either way, the rules are kind of similar. 00:08:35.731 --> 00:08:39.671 So if you look at this book in a figurative manner, you'll find, 00:08:39.691 --> 00:08:45.511 you know, that we're all kind of operating in a similar way. 00:08:45.511 --> 00:08:51.471 I believe you can test these rules against Donald Trump or an American politician, 00:08:51.731 --> 00:08:54.051 against a CEO of a Wall Street firm, 00:08:54.351 --> 00:09:04.071 against somebody in the high academia who's running Oxford or Harvard or something 00:09:04.071 --> 00:09:07.671 that's really big and profitable. You'll find these rules. 00:09:08.571 --> 00:09:18.011 You can find them in how and how very achieved and accomplished and ambitious people rise. 00:09:19.251 --> 00:09:22.811 Interesting. You know, and talking about the kind of the early days of the mafia, 00:09:22.831 --> 00:09:27.071 I have I know I know on Facebook one time I had a guy comment, 00:09:27.391 --> 00:09:32.011 a local Italian guy who's kind of connected. He made a comment when he saw my 00:09:32.011 --> 00:09:33.151 picture with some other guys. 00:09:33.251 --> 00:09:36.311 He said, well, there's a guy in this picture that writes bad things about Italians. 00:09:36.811 --> 00:09:40.351 And so I was talking with T.J. English not too long ago. I interviewed him and 00:09:40.351 --> 00:09:41.791 we were talking about this. 00:09:41.891 --> 00:09:51.131 And he's examined Irish when they first came over and paddywhacked and Cubans in three books now. 00:09:51.431 --> 00:09:54.851 And we're talking about immigrants when they come to the United States. 00:09:55.011 --> 00:09:58.611 You know, they want the American dream. that's what 00:09:58.611 --> 00:10:02.131 they they come here wanting the american dream some of 00:10:02.131 --> 00:10:05.231 them uh you know original black handers came here as 00:10:05.231 --> 00:10:08.051 brought their uh gangsterism and their their 00:10:08.051 --> 00:10:12.711 criminal behavior with them but most guys just came wanting the american dream 00:10:12.711 --> 00:10:17.151 and when you first get here in america you're you're held out you're you're 00:10:17.151 --> 00:10:21.791 pushed out of any early jobs you know the irish time the italians got here the 00:10:21.791 --> 00:10:27.231 irish already had the police and the fire and the government jobs sewed up and a lot of businesses. 00:10:27.571 --> 00:10:29.531 And so you got bright young guys, 00:10:30.701 --> 00:10:34.801 That are looking, you know, to live the American dream and their prohibition 00:10:34.801 --> 00:10:39.721 came along and it's illegal, but there was a way for them to achieve the American dream. 00:10:39.961 --> 00:10:45.221 And so that's why it is, it really is the mafia organization that started with 00:10:45.221 --> 00:10:49.181 young immigrants trying to achieve the American dream. Would you agree with that? 00:10:49.461 --> 00:10:55.421 Oh, 100%. That's why I don't have these harsh opinions on immigrants that we 00:10:55.421 --> 00:10:58.881 see that's being really pushed by the media, 00:10:58.881 --> 00:11:03.701 Because I do understand that most people who come over to this country, 00:11:03.701 --> 00:11:06.841 it's not the guy that you arrested for doing a crime. 00:11:06.841 --> 00:11:10.961 He's not reflective of the mass amount of people who come here. 00:11:11.061 --> 00:11:15.641 A lot of them are just trying to have an opportunity for a better education, 00:11:15.961 --> 00:11:19.621 a better social standing, you know, a way to buy a little piece of land, 00:11:19.741 --> 00:11:23.641 a piece of property or something, put the kids in a good school, get an education. 00:11:23.641 --> 00:11:28.781 That's what most people come here for. So even if you look at even with the mafia, 00:11:29.521 --> 00:11:33.521 you know, I think Joe Bonanno, one of Joe Bonanno's kids said this on Chris 00:11:33.521 --> 00:11:38.061 Wallace that, you know, by even all FBI standards, there was never more than 00:11:38.061 --> 00:11:42.361 like 3,000 made members in America at any given time ever. 00:11:42.821 --> 00:11:46.721 When you have millions of people come over from Italy, you know, 00:11:46.841 --> 00:11:53.761 and if you really think about how many were in the criminal element, it's like not even 1%. 00:11:53.761 --> 00:11:57.781 So you can't, but all the Italians, when they came over, they faced unending 00:11:57.781 --> 00:12:01.901 scrutiny. They were accused of taking American jobs, being dirty. 00:12:02.861 --> 00:12:06.741 Being gangsters, being, you know, they were diseased. 00:12:06.781 --> 00:12:14.581 And they were all these things that they put all these words on a whole group 00:12:14.581 --> 00:12:18.661 of people that really most of the people that came over just wanted opportunities 00:12:18.661 --> 00:12:22.581 for their kids and a better job and a better way to live. 00:12:23.878 --> 00:12:29.698 Really. And so as they organize and they move into this business of prohibition, basically, 00:12:30.158 --> 00:12:35.198 and they have to really organize, you know, from the top down in order to make 00:12:35.198 --> 00:12:40.958 it work, you know, they have, you know, they develop these business rules that you talk about in here. 00:12:40.958 --> 00:12:43.418 I was looking at this one, Mixed with the Soldiers. 00:12:43.518 --> 00:12:50.518 Now, that's one that Paul Castellano forgot to do, and it cost him his life at the end. 00:12:50.598 --> 00:12:53.958 Is that a good example for that, Mixed with the Soldiers? 00:12:54.858 --> 00:13:01.698 And if you look at the legitimate world, if you're working in policing, 00:13:01.998 --> 00:13:06.858 so let's say you're a captain, the police captain or the commissioner or something. 00:13:07.418 --> 00:13:10.498 If he's on the floor coming down 00:13:10.498 --> 00:13:13.318 he knows your name hey mr jenkins how you doing 00:13:13.318 --> 00:13:16.358 it's good to see you today while he's making his coffee he goes hey how how 00:13:16.358 --> 00:13:20.438 are things going out on this you know is anything i can do more for you you 00:13:20.438 --> 00:13:24.218 okay no i'm okay thank you but it's good to see you and thank you for taking 00:13:24.218 --> 00:13:31.798 that time to speak with me but if you have a lot of grievances as a policeman and you have, 00:13:32.078 --> 00:13:37.518 you never see your boss to voice them to, but every time you do see your boss, 00:13:37.678 --> 00:13:41.218 he just has something bad to say like, Gary, you forgot to load your clip or something. 00:13:41.418 --> 00:13:50.778 I don't know. Um, you know, it gets to a point that this other guy is making his way, this new guy, 00:13:50.898 --> 00:13:56.018 you've been seeing this new guy coming up and he always comes up to you and 00:13:56.018 --> 00:14:00.398 he's bringing you solutions to your problems and he's helping you and he's on the scene with you. 00:14:01.111 --> 00:14:04.831 You will start to unify the large group. 00:14:05.051 --> 00:14:08.471 Remember, the boss is only one person. The captain's just one person. 00:14:08.571 --> 00:14:09.751 The commissioner's just one person. 00:14:10.171 --> 00:14:15.011 These seats are occupied by one, but desired by many. 00:14:15.391 --> 00:14:22.111 So when you don't mix with the soldiers, you end up like what happened to Frank 00:14:22.111 --> 00:14:24.531 Costello, what happened to Paul Costolano. 00:14:24.531 --> 00:14:28.711 When you put yourself far distance from what you're leading, 00:14:29.131 --> 00:14:36.371 you will cause the people who are following you to think he doesn't care about us and they'll turn. 00:14:36.571 --> 00:14:41.591 So what I have found is the bosses that held on to their families versus the 00:14:41.591 --> 00:14:45.951 bosses that maybe lost their family or were usurped. 00:14:46.391 --> 00:14:53.031 You can find the difference was those bosses were there, hands on. 00:14:53.171 --> 00:14:55.471 John Gotti was very good at that. He was at the rave at night. 00:14:55.571 --> 00:14:57.891 The associates, the soldiers could kiss him. They could see him. 00:14:58.311 --> 00:15:01.511 Carlo Gambino had a home right there where everybody was at. 00:15:01.791 --> 00:15:04.111 You know, he purposely stayed there. 00:15:04.491 --> 00:15:09.191 But then Paul goes in this big mansion and just distanced himself from everybody. 00:15:09.351 --> 00:15:11.091 And Costello was doing the same thing. 00:15:11.391 --> 00:15:15.131 He was just wanting to be around legitimate people. And that's what made Costello, 00:15:15.311 --> 00:15:18.191 that's what made Vito Genovese so attractive. 00:15:18.411 --> 00:15:21.891 It was, he was here with us. I'd rather follow the guy who's here proving he 00:15:21.891 --> 00:15:26.671 he respects us than being following an order from a guy who looks down on us. 00:15:26.791 --> 00:15:32.691 And it'll be the same thing you'll find in the leader of a political party. 00:15:32.871 --> 00:15:37.591 You know, if you're the head of a political party, but you don't even know the 00:15:37.591 --> 00:15:44.171 members or anything that you're leading, they will turn and elect somebody else out. 00:15:44.371 --> 00:15:48.451 They will vote you out when you seem distant from the people who you're leading. 00:15:48.451 --> 00:15:51.171 So you got to mix with them to keep their loyalty. 00:15:51.791 --> 00:15:56.391 I think we don't need to look any further than the most recent election to see 00:15:56.391 --> 00:15:57.871 how that plays out for sure. 00:15:58.691 --> 00:16:03.331 When you see, if you take Donald Trump, for example, when you see Donald Trump 00:16:03.331 --> 00:16:06.751 show up when the political, 00:16:07.091 --> 00:16:11.831 when the media is really beaten down on the Republican Party, 00:16:11.951 --> 00:16:15.511 let's say, for not passing a certain thing or not doing something. 00:16:15.511 --> 00:16:20.411 And they're taking a lot of abuse, the Republicans in Congress, let's say. 00:16:20.611 --> 00:16:25.391 And then Trump shows up on Capitol Hill and stands in front of all of them and 00:16:25.391 --> 00:16:28.191 takes a picture and poses the picture. 00:16:29.361 --> 00:16:33.301 They like that because they're saying, we're not alone in this. 00:16:33.961 --> 00:16:38.721 Trump came and he stood here with us and said, guys, we're going to stand together 00:16:38.721 --> 00:16:40.581 on this and we're going to get through it. 00:16:40.741 --> 00:16:44.681 It makes them unify behind him or anybody. 00:16:44.801 --> 00:16:50.261 But when your leader just leaves you out to rot, you start saying, 00:16:50.721 --> 00:16:53.141 forget about this guy. You start wanting somebody else. 00:16:54.021 --> 00:17:00.701 Yeah, interesting. Look at some of these others. Let's talk about breaking the 00:17:00.701 --> 00:17:04.201 rules, breaking the rules in a way that makes people muddy. 00:17:04.481 --> 00:17:08.201 Would that be? Give us some examples of breaking the rules. Can you think of any? 00:17:08.941 --> 00:17:12.301 Well, that's the funny thing is that the people who follow the rules, 00:17:12.501 --> 00:17:14.961 they're more linear type of people. 00:17:15.341 --> 00:17:19.521 They just, the rule is this. I follow the rule. Life is a little easier if you 00:17:19.521 --> 00:17:21.701 can just follow the rules. You don't have to. 00:17:21.821 --> 00:17:22.461 It is. 00:17:23.641 --> 00:17:30.881 But following the rules remember rules are put in place to protect the person who is in power, 00:17:31.661 --> 00:17:35.041 but the guy that got into power he did 00:17:35.041 --> 00:17:40.041 not get there by following the rules rules are purposely in place to limit you 00:17:40.041 --> 00:17:45.601 and protect the guy who set them so you will never make it to boss if you think 00:17:45.601 --> 00:17:51.801 that your boss is not allowed to be killed because the rule is you can't kill a boss. 00:17:52.141 --> 00:17:56.021 But most of the time, the boss killed his boss. That's how he became a boss. 00:17:56.161 --> 00:18:02.681 So he broke the rule to make the rules, you know? So I find that, 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:12.320 The people in life that challenge the rules are willing to go around the rules, circumvent the rules. 00:18:12.540 --> 00:18:17.060 Those are the people who set everything that the general public is following. 00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:20.220 You don't get there by following the rules. 00:18:20.580 --> 00:18:24.700 So John Gotti broke the rules. He's the popular example. 00:18:24.880 --> 00:18:29.240 I use John Gotti because everyone knows his name, but the purpose of the book 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:34.020 was more studied with the older guys. But a lot of the guys, 00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:37.080 Lucky Luciano broke the rules. 00:18:37.320 --> 00:18:40.980 He killed multiple bosses, right? He killed Mazzaria. 00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:47.440 He killed Maranzano. And he came in and he broke rules to become what he became. 00:18:47.700 --> 00:18:50.620 He brought the Jews there. He brought Jewish people in too. 00:18:50.820 --> 00:18:53.920 I mean, he- There you go. And that wasn't common back then. 00:18:54.220 --> 00:18:57.160 Yeah. That's where the use the skilled man to your benefit comes from. 00:18:57.260 --> 00:18:58.820 Meyer Lansky, Bugsy Siegel. 00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:02.500 These were Jewish. Bugsy Siegel was very good with a pistol. 00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:05.700 He could kill very good. I need him on my team. 00:19:05.980 --> 00:19:09.620 Mario Lansky, well read. Understand he understood finance. 00:19:09.880 --> 00:19:14.300 He understood markets. He understood Frank Costello was very good with wooing 00:19:14.300 --> 00:19:17.940 politicians, with courting politicians, getting them on the side. 00:19:18.340 --> 00:19:24.180 Lucky put all these people around him and used what they were very good at to his benefit. 00:19:24.840 --> 00:19:30.600 But Lucky was in drugs. He really was in drugs. and the mafia was not supposed to be in drugs. 00:19:30.760 --> 00:19:34.740 But a lot of bosses were in drugs. They were always into drugs, right? 00:19:34.920 --> 00:19:39.460 But they would tell certain people in the family, you can't deal with drugs or you die. 00:19:39.800 --> 00:19:48.760 So the rules are for, it's a particular type of a personality is all I can say. 00:19:49.120 --> 00:19:54.140 A boss has a different mindset than a captain or a capo regime. 00:19:54.140 --> 00:20:01.220 A capo is a capo because he doesn't have that ability to... 00:20:02.588 --> 00:20:06.788 Be a boss. If he was, he wouldn't be like, I can't do that because my boss told 00:20:06.788 --> 00:20:08.288 me no. Bosses don't think like that. 00:20:08.988 --> 00:20:16.308 I always say, I don't mean to belabor the point, but Neil Delacroach, he wasn't a boss. 00:20:16.448 --> 00:20:19.108 No matter what everybody says, he was too loyal. 00:20:19.288 --> 00:20:25.008 He was too loyal to the rules to be the boss because anybody else would have, 00:20:25.808 --> 00:20:28.888 Neil Delacroach should have just clipped Paul and took over the family, 00:20:29.168 --> 00:20:33.488 broke the rule, took over the family, like all the bosses historically have 00:20:33.488 --> 00:20:34.988 done in the Gambino family. 00:20:35.588 --> 00:20:39.728 John did it. John had the boss capability. Clearly, Neil didn't, 00:20:39.728 --> 00:20:43.088 because if Neil did, he would have went in and been the boss. 00:20:43.428 --> 00:20:45.008 But he followed the rules. 00:20:45.768 --> 00:20:50.468 Yeah, well, when old man Gambino died and, you know, he said, 00:20:50.688 --> 00:20:54.428 my nephew here is going to be the boss, Neil just says, okay, 00:20:55.088 --> 00:21:00.908 you know, I have found nothing where he ever expressed any dissatisfaction with. 00:21:01.008 --> 00:21:02.748 He just, okay, the boss is the boss. 00:21:02.888 --> 00:21:08.508 I mean, the famous line when he's talking to, what is it, Ruggiano, 00:21:08.728 --> 00:21:10.588 you know, the boss is the boss is the boss. 00:21:10.728 --> 00:21:13.728 I mean, you're right. I never thought about it quite like what you're saying, 00:21:13.748 --> 00:21:16.008 but that is really interesting insight you had, 00:21:16.428 --> 00:21:20.468 RJ. That makes him a very great underboss. 00:21:21.448 --> 00:21:26.788 You want that a boss, he looks for new qualities in his underboss. 00:21:26.948 --> 00:21:33.068 He wants a guy who loves and respects the culture and the society and the rules 00:21:33.068 --> 00:21:37.588 because he doesn't have to worry about, remember, a boss's greatest fear at 00:21:37.588 --> 00:21:40.328 night is what is my underboss thinking? 00:21:40.708 --> 00:21:47.208 Because remember, to be a boss, you were first an underboss or very close to that, right? 00:21:47.428 --> 00:21:53.288 So a boss knows how everybody in the family is thinking. He knows what the associates think. 00:21:53.448 --> 00:21:56.708 Man, I got to get on record with somebody and prove myself. 00:21:57.308 --> 00:22:02.088 He knows what the soldier's thinking after he's made. Oh, one day I really want to be a captain. 00:22:02.768 --> 00:22:07.428 He knows what the captains are thinking. I'm so close to the top, I can almost taste it. 00:22:07.548 --> 00:22:11.368 So the boss knows how everyone's thinking. 00:22:11.708 --> 00:22:15.068 But the captains, the soldiers, the underboss, the consulier, 00:22:15.248 --> 00:22:19.708 all of them, none of them know how a boss is thinking. Even if they think they 00:22:19.708 --> 00:22:24.248 do, you don't know what a boss is thinking until you're the boss because now 00:22:24.248 --> 00:22:26.648 you're in a cul-de-sac. There's no way out. 00:22:26.948 --> 00:22:32.268 Boss is the top place you go. And it's very scary to be at the top because you 00:22:32.268 --> 00:22:35.568 got everybody in your family who wants what you got. 00:22:38.788 --> 00:22:43.368 But Neil, like I said, is a great, he's a perfect underboss. 00:22:43.488 --> 00:22:46.768 He's not going to usurp you. He's not going to kill you. he's not going to let 00:22:46.768 --> 00:22:49.768 the captains galvanize against you. We heard him on tape. 00:22:49.948 --> 00:22:53.108 He was trying to talk John Gotti and, 00:22:55.168 --> 00:23:00.288 Quack off the ledge. That's why you guys don't understand Cosa Nostra. 00:23:00.408 --> 00:23:03.828 Cosa Nostra means that the boss is your boss. You understand? 00:23:04.688 --> 00:23:09.208 I'm going to tell you, if you two ever bothered me again, I can't in the rest 00:23:09.208 --> 00:23:10.888 of my life. I ain't giving them credit. 00:23:11.188 --> 00:23:13.448 I can't. They might tackle him. 00:23:13.768 --> 00:23:15.988 She would have to cut the line on them, say. 00:23:16.408 --> 00:23:18.728 Now he's a boy. You have to put the money in college in there. 00:23:19.108 --> 00:23:22.368 You see, that's why I'm so confusing for you. You know what I'm saying? 00:23:22.608 --> 00:23:23.588 I'm going to be honest right to you. 00:23:23.848 --> 00:23:26.528 I lost you a million for a boy since you're a boy. 00:23:27.939 --> 00:23:34.339 He was trying to, you guys have to respect this man. That's your boss. He's your God. 00:23:35.139 --> 00:23:41.639 Yeah. I didn't realize he was talking to a rebel guy that will break the rules. 00:23:42.539 --> 00:23:44.679 He thought everybody was like him, didn't he? 00:23:46.899 --> 00:23:47.779 There you go. 00:23:48.259 --> 00:23:51.639 You know, I see this one dress dapper. 00:23:51.759 --> 00:23:56.779 And I tell you why I've said something about this is I have an FBI agent friend, 00:23:56.779 --> 00:24:03.199 Bill Owsley, who was a case agent on the straw man case and was the most famous agent in Kansas city, 00:24:03.339 --> 00:24:07.739 probably a certain era FBI is probably one of the most famous agents in the 00:24:07.739 --> 00:24:09.019 United States with the, uh, 00:24:09.299 --> 00:24:11.539 cause he was a case agent over the, uh, 00:24:12.339 --> 00:24:14.039 uncovering all the skimming from Las Vegas. 00:24:14.499 --> 00:24:17.159 And, and he made a comment one day. He said, you know, he said, 00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:21.939 these guys, these modern mobsters, he said, you know, they used to wear, 00:24:21.959 --> 00:24:26.359 you know, expensive, you know, tailored suits really dress nice. 00:24:26.399 --> 00:24:29.619 He said, And now what he got, they got guys running around in track suits. 00:24:29.739 --> 00:24:31.799 He said, no wonder the mafia is going down. 00:24:31.959 --> 00:24:35.339 So dress dapper and John Gotti did do that. 00:24:35.499 --> 00:24:39.159 I'll say that using, keeping on the John Gotti tracks. And it's such a great 00:24:39.159 --> 00:24:43.399 example, but he did dress dapper and all those older guys did for sure. 00:24:44.319 --> 00:24:52.759 You know, people in general are very weak in what they, from what they see. 00:24:52.939 --> 00:24:56.399 Our eyes lie to us all the time. 00:24:57.119 --> 00:25:02.819 And very achieved people understand that the human is very easy to seduce. 00:25:03.099 --> 00:25:08.659 The human brain is very easy to seduce. You know, that's why I read about this 00:25:08.659 --> 00:25:12.399 before, but blind people typically have more... 00:25:13.518 --> 00:25:19.898 Like a stronger intuition and things like that than people who can see because 00:25:19.898 --> 00:25:26.398 they're forced to be able to read your sincerity and things like that, a handshake and things. 00:25:26.538 --> 00:25:33.838 They're better because they don't have the luxury of the eye. 00:25:34.098 --> 00:25:42.638 So young children are very perceptive before or a baby, a newborn that doesn't 00:25:42.638 --> 00:25:43.898 even understand words yet. 00:25:44.758 --> 00:25:50.978 When your child is laughing and playful, and then somebody just walks in and 00:25:50.978 --> 00:25:54.578 the kid goes and looks at them and starts crying and gets very, 00:25:54.738 --> 00:25:58.638 everything changes because they're sensing a certain energy and things like that. 00:25:59.158 --> 00:26:04.298 So dressing the way we appear is an easy way to trick a person. 00:26:05.038 --> 00:26:10.638 Very easy. You come, when you come looking shabby, looking down, 00:26:10.798 --> 00:26:12.878 that's not an inspiring look. 00:26:13.178 --> 00:26:21.898 We love to see a person come in looking very astute and strong and powerful and acclaimed. 00:26:22.238 --> 00:26:26.958 And it almost makes you want to follow that man because you want to be like him. 00:26:27.258 --> 00:26:30.298 You want the whole room to stop and look at you. 00:26:30.578 --> 00:26:36.078 You want people to follow you. So now you need more than just your appearance, 00:26:36.078 --> 00:26:41.158 but the way you appear really does draw people in. 00:26:41.478 --> 00:26:45.978 And if you want to be a boss, you're going to have to look like one also. 00:26:46.238 --> 00:26:51.678 You have to present yourself as one also. So you're not inspired by a man that 00:26:51.678 --> 00:26:53.238 you see in tattered clothes. 00:26:54.298 --> 00:26:58.698 You ain't inspired by a man that comes in looking like he works on the back of a dump truck. 00:26:58.698 --> 00:27:03.838 And I don't mean nothing disparaging towards anyone that does these professions. 00:27:03.838 --> 00:27:09.638 I'm just saying we are inspired to follow what looks achieved. 00:27:10.358 --> 00:27:14.898 Yeah. Yeah. I know when, when I was a sergeant in plain clothes, 00:27:14.898 --> 00:27:21.398 I always tried to dress just a little bit better than the best desk detective that I had under me. 00:27:22.918 --> 00:27:26.598 And that's, and that's how I've always been as a professional. 00:27:26.598 --> 00:27:32.038 Like, I never, I will go into, I talk about in that section of the book, 00:27:32.218 --> 00:27:37.778 you can be, the boss can have a meeting in a pissy alleyway. It reeks of urine. 00:27:38.178 --> 00:27:44.498 But he still arrives for the alleyway Bensonhurst meeting, chauffeured in a suit. 00:27:44.758 --> 00:27:50.198 He walks in that alley. And even though the guys he's meeting with have on denim 00:27:50.198 --> 00:27:54.598 and or a track suit, do you know who walks away feeling ashamed? 00:27:54.598 --> 00:27:58.038 The boss doesn't walk away feeling like, man, I came overdressed. 00:27:58.118 --> 00:28:02.018 The guys in the track suit said, fuck, we should have had a suit on. 00:28:03.718 --> 00:28:10.118 And I always invoke that as a professional, personally. I always came... 00:28:11.204 --> 00:28:16.004 One step ahead of dressed appeared better than anybody else. 00:28:16.244 --> 00:28:20.804 This interview, I had on a black hoodie when I came here. 00:28:21.404 --> 00:28:26.644 I keep dress shirts in my office. I quickly changed a dress shirt and put my 00:28:26.644 --> 00:28:27.984 hat on before I walked in here. 00:28:28.004 --> 00:28:33.344 Well, there we go. So you're respecting the art of dress dapper. 00:28:33.524 --> 00:28:38.744 So I'm not wearing this shirt all day today. I keep collared shirts in my office. 00:28:39.064 --> 00:28:43.844 And I came in here with, I mean, you might think, oh, he probably has on some nice dress pants. 00:28:43.984 --> 00:28:47.684 But if you really look, I got on some blue sneakers. 00:28:48.444 --> 00:28:50.304 I'm not even showing you my pants. 00:28:50.644 --> 00:28:54.884 And I got on some cargo pants with a buckle. 00:28:55.564 --> 00:29:02.064 But what you see me in is I know I should appear with a nice collar shirt and 00:29:02.064 --> 00:29:04.544 look presentable for the guy who's watching. 00:29:04.744 --> 00:29:09.124 And that's how we should be in general. You should appear in your best if you 00:29:09.124 --> 00:29:11.304 want to be respected as your best. 00:29:11.304 --> 00:29:14.664 Really i tell you what guys out there i'm speaking 00:29:14.664 --> 00:29:17.424 to y'all out there you know just get this 00:29:17.424 --> 00:29:20.324 book just for tips on how to conduct your own 00:29:20.324 --> 00:29:24.024 life if you want to have success in your own life in your own work whatever 00:29:24.024 --> 00:29:27.944 you do there's you just follow a lot of these tips now you don't want to kill 00:29:27.944 --> 00:29:32.004 the boss i think we have a a chapter here called kill the boss but and we've 00:29:32.004 --> 00:29:37.304 talked about that a little bit but no hold on yeah when you're killing politically 00:29:37.304 --> 00:29:39.604 i've seen that happen well that's 00:29:39.604 --> 00:29:47.104 What i'm talking about so you'll see um if you look at the presidential campaign 00:29:47.104 --> 00:29:54.944 trump had to quote unquote kill the boss he had to present a case on this biden guy is not for you. 00:29:54.944 --> 00:29:56.204 Yeah i 00:29:56.204 --> 00:30:01.144 Gotta take he's not physically gonna shoot him but he has to take him out of 00:30:01.144 --> 00:30:03.544 power that's the theory behind kill the boss, 00:30:04.561 --> 00:30:10.781