WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:03.317 Well, hey, welcome, all you wiretappers. Glad to be back here in studio of Gangland Wire. 00:00:03.437 --> 00:00:07.177 This is Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Detective, 00:00:07.477 --> 00:00:13.857 a later sergeant, and I have in the studio today a prolific mob author and a 00:00:13.857 --> 00:00:19.057 guy that's written with, I know you guys know, Gus Russo and the outfit book in Chicago. 00:00:19.297 --> 00:00:22.457 Well, this is a contemporary of Gus Russo, Eric Dessenhall. 00:00:22.617 --> 00:00:26.837 Eric, I really appreciate you coming in and sharing your stories about the wise 00:00:26.837 --> 00:00:29.977 guys in the White House with my wiretappers here. 00:00:30.537 --> 00:00:34.057 Thanks very much for having me. And I won't say too many things about Gus, 00:00:34.497 --> 00:00:35.697 given that I talk to him every day. 00:00:35.817 --> 00:00:41.417 And I don't want to have to face him. So I'll be kind. 00:00:41.617 --> 00:00:45.437 Yeah, he's a good guy. I interviewed him once. I got to get him back on. 00:00:45.617 --> 00:00:48.937 You know, there's a lot of new books coming out all the time. 00:00:49.117 --> 00:00:51.657 But I need to get him back on because he's so knowledgeable. 00:00:51.937 --> 00:00:55.857 So we're not here to talk about Gus Russo. We're here to talk about wise guys 00:00:55.857 --> 00:00:58.577 in the White House, which is probably kind of topical right now. 00:00:58.577 --> 00:01:03.537 The White House has been more topical in the last, what, eight years or so than 00:01:03.537 --> 00:01:06.977 it's ever been in my entire 79 years. It's just crazy. 00:01:07.137 --> 00:01:11.417 But first of all, Eric, tell the guys a little bit about your past writing. 00:01:11.597 --> 00:01:15.517 You have a whole bunch of books. And so tell the guys a little bit about your 00:01:15.517 --> 00:01:17.697 story through the last 10, 15 years. 00:01:18.637 --> 00:01:22.057 Well, I've written 12 books. This is my 12th. 00:01:22.957 --> 00:01:30.177 My fiction tends to deal with organized crime. My nonfiction deals also with organized crime. 00:01:30.177 --> 00:01:35.437 My last book actually was with Gus Russo called Best of Enemies, 00:01:35.437 --> 00:01:37.857 and it was the true story of two spies, 00:01:38.037 --> 00:01:42.517 a CIA guy and a KGB guy, who were assigned to flip each other, 00:01:42.577 --> 00:01:48.057 but they ended up becoming best friends and bringing down the worst traitor 00:01:48.057 --> 00:01:52.597 in American history, the FBI's Robert Hansen. I had done a historical novel. 00:01:52.677 --> 00:01:59.557 I've known some of Meyer Lansky's family much of my life and had access to a lot of his records. 00:01:59.577 --> 00:02:04.737 And I did a historical novel called The Devil Himself about his role with Luciano 00:02:04.737 --> 00:02:09.837 during World War II. and I fictionalized it, even though it is a factual story. 00:02:10.477 --> 00:02:17.797 I used the basis of fact to tell the story of Lansky because of so much of what 00:02:17.797 --> 00:02:23.277 I learned about what he emotionally wanted out of the World War II project, 00:02:23.277 --> 00:02:25.077 as well as the Navy commander. 00:02:25.077 --> 00:02:29.077 I mean, I'm not really a creature of the mob, even though I grew up around it. 00:02:29.177 --> 00:02:32.817 I'm more of a creature of Washington, where I've lived for 40 years. 00:02:32.997 --> 00:02:37.057 And what was interesting to me about the World War II story was not just the 00:02:37.057 --> 00:02:41.477 mob, but the naval officer who took the risk of working with the mob. 00:02:41.617 --> 00:02:44.637 And it's one of those things where classic Washington story, 00:02:44.917 --> 00:02:49.177 you take a risk, you're told to win, and when you win. 00:02:49.837 --> 00:02:53.017 Then everybody goes, oh my God, this guy worked with mobsters, 00:02:53.217 --> 00:02:57.097 which they knew, and then what happened to his career, which was devastating. 00:02:57.377 --> 00:03:02.617 So I've been very interested in the myths and realities of World War II. 00:03:02.617 --> 00:03:08.497 And the new book, Wise Guys in the White House, this has been cooking for about 40 years. 00:03:08.657 --> 00:03:11.017 I was a young aide in Reagan's White House. Yeah. 00:03:11.859 --> 00:03:15.159 I tell the story at the beginning of the book where on 00:03:15.159 --> 00:03:18.039 one of my first days i told my boss she said 00:03:18.039 --> 00:03:20.779 where do you live where you're from and i said i'm from cherry hill 00:03:20.779 --> 00:03:24.259 new jersey there was a big mob war at the time uh when 00:03:24.259 --> 00:03:30.439 angelo bruno had been killed in march of 1980 and my boss said uh oh cherry 00:03:30.439 --> 00:03:35.239 hill that's that's big mafia and i said well yeah the gambinos lived there they 00:03:35.239 --> 00:03:39.339 were my neighbors and uh but muhammad ali lived there too and she and one of 00:03:39.339 --> 00:03:42.639 the people said well you know the mob killed JFK. 00:03:42.859 --> 00:03:46.399 And I said, what are you talking about? Oh, they run the country. 00:03:46.619 --> 00:03:49.139 I said, we're 20 feet from the Oval Office. 00:03:49.519 --> 00:03:52.539 Where are you? Do you know these guys? Where are you getting this? 00:03:52.999 --> 00:03:56.179 And it's stuck with me for 40 years. 00:03:56.379 --> 00:04:01.319 And finally, enough files came out, enough people were willing to talk that 00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:06.259 I thought I had a book in the history of the presidency in organized crime, 00:04:06.399 --> 00:04:11.079 what really did happen, what didn't happen, what people think happened that didn't happen. 00:04:11.559 --> 00:04:16.539 And the bottom line is there have been extensive dealings going back to the 00:04:16.539 --> 00:04:19.899 FDR administration with organized crime. 00:04:19.899 --> 00:04:25.659 But it's not like the president at three in the morning is inviting mobsters 00:04:25.659 --> 00:04:28.459 into the Oval Office and then they're tiptoeing out. 00:04:28.639 --> 00:04:32.739 It's much more attenuated, but it's very, very real. 00:04:33.365 --> 00:04:38.365 Yeah, it's it's much more sophisticated or or like so many different cutouts. 00:04:38.625 --> 00:04:44.565 The president never talks to, you know, Carlo Gambino or John Gotti or any of these guys. 00:04:44.805 --> 00:04:50.685 But these guys talk to their local politician who then has a connection to the 00:04:50.685 --> 00:04:52.785 larger party, maybe on a state level. 00:04:52.785 --> 00:04:59.425 And then on a state level, then they end up maybe up with the with the attorney general or something. 00:04:59.425 --> 00:05:05.305 I think the Chicago, uh, the, the, uh, Chicago film, uh, scandal where the, 00:05:05.345 --> 00:05:10.525 the Chicago outfit guys, Paul Reek and some of them got out of prison early 00:05:10.525 --> 00:05:13.225 out of Leavenworth early with Harry Truman's help. 00:05:13.425 --> 00:05:19.585 Right. With, with his, his, uh, uh, uh, attorney general, Tom Clark's help. 00:05:19.805 --> 00:05:24.705 And Truman had to know that that was going on, but Truman was owed his career to Pendergast. 00:05:24.845 --> 00:05:27.885 So it, in, in a, you know, indirect way. 00:05:28.085 --> 00:05:30.625 So it's, you know, that's, that's just how it works. 00:05:31.445 --> 00:05:34.425 That's right. And we, you know, with Harry Truman, I mean, a lot of people, 00:05:34.645 --> 00:05:38.805 everybody knows that he came from a political machine, but they don't know that 00:05:38.805 --> 00:05:44.125 it was a mafia controlled machine, not just a political machine, the Lazio family. 00:05:44.865 --> 00:05:50.685 And you hear you had a person who was selected by a mafia machine who ended 00:05:50.685 --> 00:05:52.705 up becoming president of the United States. 00:05:52.865 --> 00:05:57.165 And of course, dropped the bomb on Japan. Did the mob have anything to do with that? No. 00:05:57.345 --> 00:06:03.845 But it's amazing to think that history turned on a president that was, 00:06:03.965 --> 00:06:06.785 in fact, selected with the help of organized crime. 00:06:07.225 --> 00:06:15.025 And Truman, interestingly, is not unlike Trump in the sense that he admitted that 00:06:15.424 --> 00:06:19.344 to a large degree, his dealings with the mob. 00:06:19.484 --> 00:06:24.644 And I think one of the things we'll talk about is the extent to which some people, 00:06:24.944 --> 00:06:28.064 everything was about the appearance of respectability. 00:06:28.224 --> 00:06:31.764 Nobody cared if they did business with the mob. They cared about it coming out. 00:06:31.984 --> 00:06:38.744 And Truman was oddly candid over his career about it. He wasn't completely candid. 00:06:38.944 --> 00:06:42.464 And I think one of the things we'll get to is what's been interesting about 00:06:42.464 --> 00:06:48.124 Donald Trump, as only Trump can do, he will come out and openly admit on national 00:06:48.124 --> 00:06:51.344 TV repeatedly to having dealt with organized crime. 00:06:51.504 --> 00:06:53.944 And then somebody will say, well, did you deal with organized crime? 00:06:54.004 --> 00:06:56.344 And he'll say, no, I would never do that. But that's Trump. 00:06:57.504 --> 00:07:01.944 And that's kind of built into his stock price. Yeah, that's for sure. 00:07:02.244 --> 00:07:06.404 Yeah, that I think another thing, Eric, I'd like to get your comment on this. 00:07:06.404 --> 00:07:14.924 It seems like the 30s, 40s, and 50s on up to the 60s, it finally started changing in the 70s. 00:07:16.524 --> 00:07:24.564 Politicians, local politicians, and even society as a whole did not look upon 00:07:24.564 --> 00:07:28.864 the mafia as this evil thing. 00:07:28.864 --> 00:07:33.364 They looked at them more as part of the culture, part of society. 00:07:33.364 --> 00:07:36.424 You know, the fact that, you know, they provided gambling, you know, 00:07:36.544 --> 00:07:40.844 liquor during prohibition and gambling when all the states, all the country 00:07:40.844 --> 00:07:44.224 people want to to deny people a chance to gamble. 00:07:44.524 --> 00:07:47.764 The city people wanted to gamble and a lot of country people did, too. 00:07:47.944 --> 00:07:52.584 But they always were part of it. And as opposed something happened, 00:07:52.584 --> 00:07:58.644 I don't know exactly when in the 70s, about the time I came along and went in the intelligence unit. 00:07:58.644 --> 00:08:03.104 It's like all of a sudden they're this evil thing that we have to totally eradicate. 00:08:03.244 --> 00:08:05.764 Before, it was not like that. You see it like that? 00:08:06.521 --> 00:08:08.961 Well, I think that there's a lot of truth to it. I mean, look, 00:08:09.301 --> 00:08:14.281 gangsters have always been gangsters and the idea that they were members of the community. 00:08:14.481 --> 00:08:18.261 I mean, if I hear one more time that they kept their neighborhood safe. 00:08:18.441 --> 00:08:20.441 Well, yeah, they kept their immediate neighborhoods. 00:08:20.701 --> 00:08:24.941 They kept their immediate neighborhood safe, but they also pumped drugs into the community. 00:08:24.941 --> 00:08:29.961 I mean, I remember one of the stories I heard as people in my family got older, 00:08:30.081 --> 00:08:35.521 one of my grandfather's business partners in the liquor business was someone 00:08:35.521 --> 00:08:38.041 who I didn't know until I was in my 20s, 00:08:38.161 --> 00:08:41.961 had been the Don of the Philadelphia, South Jersey area. 00:08:41.961 --> 00:08:46.201 And he had been one of the people, I don't use his real name in the book, 00:08:46.401 --> 00:08:49.261 but he had been one of the people arrested at Appalachian. 00:08:49.781 --> 00:08:56.441 And one of the things my dad told me long after everybody was gone is how mortified 00:08:56.441 --> 00:09:00.461 they were at being arrested and being identified as gangsters. 00:09:00.821 --> 00:09:04.561 Because a lot of these guys didn't see themselves that way. 00:09:04.761 --> 00:09:09.361 This man who we called Uncle Vince was actually in the car with Vito Genovese 00:09:09.361 --> 00:09:13.461 at Appalachian. And, you know, you think in the movies, it's, 00:09:13.601 --> 00:09:16.701 yeah, you can arrest me, but I'll be out by dinner. 00:09:17.601 --> 00:09:22.701 The stories that I heard was there was such shame and embarrassment because 00:09:22.701 --> 00:09:26.721 Uncle Vince saw himself as a member of the community. 00:09:27.321 --> 00:09:32.441 He was a gambler, but they were not into drugs. And a lot of it that I get to 00:09:32.441 --> 00:09:36.561 in the book, a lot of these guys very much saw themselves as Americans. 00:09:36.561 --> 00:09:42.821 What was interesting to me about Meyer Lansky is his biggest motive for getting 00:09:42.821 --> 00:09:48.101 involved with the World War II program was personally the thing that meant the 00:09:48.101 --> 00:09:50.041 most to him was being a real American. 00:09:50.421 --> 00:09:56.141 I had his certificate of naturalization, and Meyer worked very hard to become 00:09:56.141 --> 00:10:01.201 naturalized and try to convince Luciano to do it. But Luciano thought it was stupid. 00:10:01.421 --> 00:10:07.461 But with Lansky, I mean, he went to volunteer to serve in the army. 00:10:07.701 --> 00:10:11.781 Given what was happening to Jews in World War II, he was turned down because 00:10:11.781 --> 00:10:13.401 of his age, because of his height. 00:10:13.521 --> 00:10:16.001 He was 5'4", soaking wet. 00:10:16.241 --> 00:10:19.621 But a lot of these guys, it was very much about being an American. 00:10:19.801 --> 00:10:24.641 Even Albert Anastasia served in the army. What began to happen... 00:10:26.056 --> 00:10:30.556 Later, I think that part of the problem is the newer generations, 00:10:30.556 --> 00:10:39.076 you had narcotics, and you didn't have that ethic of we at least have to appear respectable. 00:10:39.196 --> 00:10:42.496 We have to appear to be members of the community. 00:10:42.716 --> 00:10:44.736 And look, this is assimilation. 00:10:45.336 --> 00:10:52.656 I came across as saying what the son seeks to forget, the grandson seeks to remember. 00:10:52.656 --> 00:10:58.976 And there are people in my family saying, why do you have to rehash this stuff 00:10:58.976 --> 00:11:01.916 that happened before you were born? 00:11:03.376 --> 00:11:07.556 You know, it's so long ago. You were so far removed from it. 00:11:07.616 --> 00:11:11.296 And the fact is, is I am very far removed from it. 00:11:11.396 --> 00:11:17.276 But I became fascinated by what the people before me did. And it never occurred 00:11:17.276 --> 00:11:21.296 to me that anybody would ever accuse me of it. But all the people I know in 00:11:21.296 --> 00:11:26.096 my family and our neighbors wanted is they wanted their kids to go to Ivy League schools. 00:11:26.316 --> 00:11:30.016 I mean, the idea that one of my uncles or grandparents would sit me down and 00:11:30.016 --> 00:11:34.176 say, you know, Eric, I really want you to get a good education so you can become 00:11:34.176 --> 00:11:35.736 a really good extortionist. 00:11:37.256 --> 00:11:40.576 And, you know, one of the things people say about Meyer is, oh, 00:11:40.616 --> 00:11:42.616 do you think that they made him an honorary member? 00:11:42.816 --> 00:11:46.996 It never would have occurred to him. What he was looking for was to become Walter 00:11:46.996 --> 00:11:50.496 Annenberg. well, Mo Annenberg, Lou Wasserman. 00:11:50.676 --> 00:11:54.756 He wanted to become a very big, legitimate businessman. The idea, 00:11:55.136 --> 00:11:59.776 at least with the Jews, that he would become the boss of all bosses, 00:12:00.196 --> 00:12:04.596 he viewed gangland activity as a means to an end. 00:12:04.756 --> 00:12:09.436 And one of the themes of wise guys in the White House is the obsession that 00:12:09.436 --> 00:12:12.596 all of the players had with respectability. 00:12:12.816 --> 00:12:15.536 And the more you could fake respectability... 00:12:16.361 --> 00:12:20.601 The more power you got. And interestingly, the people who ended up with the 00:12:20.601 --> 00:12:24.841 success and the power in this country were the people who used the mobsters, 00:12:25.101 --> 00:12:26.541 not the mobsters themselves. 00:12:26.541 --> 00:12:31.081 And in the end, one of the things I concluded is the politicians and the businessmen 00:12:31.081 --> 00:12:32.921 got the better end of the deal than the mob. 00:12:33.081 --> 00:12:36.161 Because the mob guys at the end of the day, I mean, Meyer's partner, 00:12:36.301 --> 00:12:41.801 Jimmy Alo, used to say, we were still burying tin cans in the backyard. 00:12:41.821 --> 00:12:44.481 Everybody said we were controlling legitimate businesses. 00:12:44.521 --> 00:12:46.741 We wanted to, but we couldn't pull it off. 00:12:47.341 --> 00:12:53.381 Yeah. Interesting. You know what? TJ English, I just interviewed him and he said, he's wonderful. 00:12:53.901 --> 00:12:58.141 He is. He said, these guys just wanted the American dream. That's all they wanted 00:12:58.141 --> 00:13:02.621 was to live the American dream as they assimilated into American society. 00:13:02.801 --> 00:13:06.301 And so that's what you're saying here, that they wanted legitimacy and 00:13:06.301 --> 00:13:10.721 they put on the appearance of legitimacy and getting involved with politics 00:13:10.721 --> 00:13:15.261 will give you some appearance of legitimacy and also give you a certain power 00:13:15.261 --> 00:13:20.341 to you can help out your fellow man you could get jobs for people uh you know 00:13:20.341 --> 00:13:23.001 on the police department and the fire department you know. 00:13:23.941 --> 00:13:29.221 Different city jobs or account state jobs and so that's that's what they wanted 00:13:29.221 --> 00:13:33.861 so let's let's talk about tell us one of your your early stories here out of the book, 00:13:34.654 --> 00:13:39.434 Well, one of the things I start with is Americans have always done business. 00:13:39.634 --> 00:13:44.194 American politicians have always done business with thugs going back to the political machines. 00:13:44.354 --> 00:13:47.374 But one of the first stories I tell isn't a mafia story. 00:13:47.374 --> 00:13:53.794 It's how when Andrew Jackson was dealing with the War of 1812 and he ran into 00:13:53.794 --> 00:13:56.634 trouble with the British in New Orleans, 00:13:56.854 --> 00:14:04.334 he tapped the pirate Jean Lafitte to go and harass the British. 00:14:04.654 --> 00:14:11.194 And what Lafitte wanted of the deal is he wanted leniency from prosecution. 00:14:11.534 --> 00:14:14.834 Even he wanted to be respectable. So I talk about that's a pattern. 00:14:14.894 --> 00:14:19.034 But really the first story that I deal with is World War II. 00:14:19.234 --> 00:14:22.954 And there's a lot of mythology around what happened. 00:14:23.154 --> 00:14:26.654 I mean there are two extreme schools of thought. Both of them are wrong. 00:14:26.794 --> 00:14:31.614 One of them is that you hear the story that the mafia helped save the country 00:14:31.614 --> 00:14:36.394 in World War II. You left Lucky Luciano stormed the shores of Sicily, 00:14:36.394 --> 00:14:40.114 waving a banner, and the mafia came. That never happened. 00:14:40.294 --> 00:14:44.714 But the other school of thought is that it was all a scam, that the mob did nothing. 00:14:45.594 --> 00:14:50.334 It's really somewhere in the middle. The fact is, is what you had is there was sabotage. 00:14:50.514 --> 00:14:56.134 The Nazis were sinking tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars, 00:14:56.554 --> 00:15:01.854 of tons, rather, of materiel in the Atlantic, including in the Hudson River. 00:15:02.654 --> 00:15:06.194 Roosevelt hadn't declared war. He couldn't declare war. Nobody wanted the war. 00:15:06.634 --> 00:15:09.074 And things were disappearing. 00:15:09.714 --> 00:15:14.834 The theory was a few weeks after Pearl Harbor, this ship blew up at the port 00:15:14.834 --> 00:15:20.734 of New York, the Normandy, a French ship that was being converted into an American 00:15:20.734 --> 00:15:23.874 troop ship. and it blew up. It sank. 00:15:24.494 --> 00:15:27.994 And the theory at the time was that it was Nazi sabotage. 00:15:28.154 --> 00:15:31.334 It probably wasn't, almost certainly wasn't. But it was, you know, 00:15:31.414 --> 00:15:33.214 a month after Pearl Harbor. Who knew? 00:15:33.774 --> 00:15:37.674 The Navy goes to the docks. They say, we need your help. And they told them to go to hell. 00:15:37.934 --> 00:15:42.334 You know, the kinds of guys who you're dealing with tough Italians and Irishmen, 00:15:42.514 --> 00:15:46.454 you go in with a uniform and say, we work for the government. 00:15:46.714 --> 00:15:49.874 They're not going to cooperate with you. And one theory was, 00:15:49.994 --> 00:15:51.314 were they loyal to Mussolini? 00:15:51.434 --> 00:15:55.194 They really weren't. But the fact is, is they didn't want to cooperate with the government. 00:15:56.134 --> 00:16:00.914 They ended up approaching a Genovese, what is now a Genovese family, 00:16:01.054 --> 00:16:04.234 a Luciano member, a guy named Joseph Lanza. 00:16:04.694 --> 00:16:08.454 And he said, well, you know, we could help you on the docks, 00:16:08.494 --> 00:16:10.834 but you need Luciano to help you. 00:16:11.113 --> 00:16:15.853 And if you want to get to Luciano, you got to go to, you got to talk to Meyer 00:16:15.853 --> 00:16:23.053 Lansky because Meyer Lansky was famously patriotic as a Jewish man. 00:16:23.233 --> 00:16:28.433 He was very concerned about what was happening in World War II, even in Eastern Europe. 00:16:28.833 --> 00:16:34.593 And Lansky was approached by a commander, Hoffenden, of the Navy with the help, 00:16:34.713 --> 00:16:42.833 by the way, irony of ironies, of prosecutors in New York. were the ones who made the connection. 00:16:43.333 --> 00:16:47.913 Prosecutors that came from the Tammany Hall machine, which was dominated by 00:16:47.913 --> 00:16:49.433 Luciano and Frank Costello. 00:16:49.653 --> 00:16:52.553 So it was the prosecutors who brought in the mob. 00:16:52.913 --> 00:16:56.653 And Lansky listened and he said, look, I've tried to, I mean, 00:16:56.713 --> 00:16:59.053 the Navy knew that Lansky had been naturalized. 00:16:59.253 --> 00:17:04.033 They knew that he was tutored privately in American history. 00:17:04.293 --> 00:17:08.393 I mean, Meyer Lansky in the evenings, he wasn't going out gambling with the 00:17:08.393 --> 00:17:10.353 guys or having an affairs. he was hiring Tudor. 00:17:10.513 --> 00:17:13.753 I mean, I have the notes and I see the notes that he made. 00:17:13.873 --> 00:17:19.793 I mean, there's one of his notes in his, you know, you need to better understand 00:17:19.793 --> 00:17:25.373 Benjamin Graham, who was Warren Buffett's hero. You must look up Thucydides. 00:17:26.493 --> 00:17:31.893 A lot of interest in history. And he was turned down to be in the army. 00:17:32.013 --> 00:17:35.593 And he went up to Luciano, who he hadn't seen in seven years. 00:17:35.833 --> 00:17:40.413 Luciano was in prison up at the Canadian border, upstate New York, 00:17:40.513 --> 00:17:47.013 where he had been away on a 30 to 50 year vacation for pandering, 00:17:48.133 --> 00:17:50.493 Luciano said, look, I'm happy to help. 00:17:51.939 --> 00:17:54.979 I don't like the, I don't love the idea of working with the government. 00:17:56.199 --> 00:18:02.019 And frankly, if they deport me, how will it look that I helped in the war effort 00:18:02.019 --> 00:18:05.919 against Italy where I'd end up being deported? And Meyer said, I've got a plan. 00:18:06.299 --> 00:18:10.259 You know, we want something in return. This is not out of the goodness of our hearts. 00:18:10.419 --> 00:18:15.819 I mean, some of it is patriotism, but some of it is, the idea was to spring 00:18:15.819 --> 00:18:18.319 Luciano and get leniency in sentencing. 00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:23.559 So what ended up happening is word was put out by Luciano that he wants the 00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:27.439 people on the waterfront to cooperate. It's not seen as ratting. 00:18:27.819 --> 00:18:34.599 And a lot of what Lansky and his people did, it was really two things. 00:18:34.599 --> 00:18:40.859 Number one, they reported on suspicious behavior on the waterfront. 00:18:42.059 --> 00:18:47.999 Unbelievably, one of the people who Franklin Roosevelt designated as his New 00:18:47.999 --> 00:18:55.219 York area sabotage czar was his best friend, a man named Vincent Astor of the Astor family fortune. 00:18:55.219 --> 00:19:01.339 So here you had an Astor who was his best friend and who helped him when he 00:19:01.339 --> 00:19:09.739 had polio recuperate was the guy in charge of working with the Navy and making 00:19:09.739 --> 00:19:13.299 sure that the New York area ports were safe. 00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:20.399 Do we know that Vincent Astor personally met with mobsters and then went back and told Roosevelt? 00:19:20.479 --> 00:19:21.919 We don't know. 00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:26.859 But then again, those type of files wouldn't be kept. It is almost certain that 00:19:26.859 --> 00:19:28.199 Roosevelt was aware of this. 00:19:28.579 --> 00:19:31.879 Also, Walter Winchell, the most powerful columnist in America, 00:19:32.139 --> 00:19:35.539 was Roosevelt's top guy on propaganda. 00:19:36.059 --> 00:19:41.359 Who was Walter Winchell's neighbor in the Majestic House in New York City? 00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:43.899 His neighbor down the hall, Meyer Lansky. 00:19:44.299 --> 00:19:48.199 And he used to tell Meyer Lansky where the Nazi rallies. I mean, 00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:52.839 it's hard to believe in this day and age, but there was a major pro-German, 00:19:53.159 --> 00:19:56.239 pro-Nazi presence of all places, New York City. 00:19:56.559 --> 00:20:01.799 And Winchell would say, these people are meeting at this particular location. 00:20:01.799 --> 00:20:05.619 And Lansky would send his crew and beat the living crap out of them. 00:20:05.619 --> 00:20:13.239 And so you had both this process of reporting on activities around the docks, 00:20:13.379 --> 00:20:21.419 but also boats going around with both gangsters and Navy people around the New York area, 00:20:21.699 --> 00:20:24.239 spotting submarines and reporting it. 00:20:24.239 --> 00:20:30.499 One of the things that happened was that eight Nazi saboteurs came ashore on 00:20:30.499 --> 00:20:33.079 Long Island and in Jacksonville, Florida. 00:20:33.719 --> 00:20:39.099 And J. Edgar Hoover ended up with all the credit for catching them. 00:20:39.199 --> 00:20:43.239 And he deserved most of the credit because one of the guys turned himself in. 00:20:43.399 --> 00:20:50.019 But what also happened was the unions, the waiters' unions in hotels, were listening to... 00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:57.780 And reporting to Lansky and Joseph Lanza if there were suspicious people, 00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:06.760 which ended up leading to the capture of some of the New York Nazis who ended up coming ashore. 00:21:06.760 --> 00:21:09.540 Other ones really did just turn themselves in. 00:21:09.700 --> 00:21:14.020 But you have this ongoing historical tug of war where you have Lansky saying, 00:21:14.180 --> 00:21:16.260 I got them and turned them in. And you have J. 00:21:16.380 --> 00:21:20.700 Edgar Hoover saying, no, it was crack investigations that did it. 00:21:21.040 --> 00:21:23.860 Who are you going to believe? I think that there's truth to both of it. 00:21:24.200 --> 00:21:30.300 I read a book about that when I was a kid. And I saw nothing about the mafia and these guys. 00:21:30.420 --> 00:21:35.660 It was all the intrepid agents of the FBI. I was in trance with that kind of 00:21:35.660 --> 00:21:37.980 stuff, of course, as a 12, 13-year-old boy. 00:21:38.320 --> 00:21:43.300 I was, too. I was, too. And by the way, I mean, there is reason to believe that 00:21:43.300 --> 00:21:47.100 Lansky exaggerated some of his role. But so did J. Edgar Hoover. 00:21:47.340 --> 00:21:52.460 Yeah. But we're never going to know because all of the records weren't kept. 00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:55.960 But the bottom line is the mob did play a big role. 00:21:55.960 --> 00:21:59.840 And then later, when Patton was planning the invasion of Sicily, 00:22:00.020 --> 00:22:01.880 they needed contacts in Sicily. 00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:06.420 And Lansky brought them into the headquarters for, by the way, 00:22:06.500 --> 00:22:09.580 what was called the Ferret Squad or Operation Underworld, 00:22:09.740 --> 00:22:14.940 was none other than the Hotel Astor, controlled by the Astor family and who 00:22:14.940 --> 00:22:16.960 was Roosevelt's best friend, Astor. 00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:21.340 So Lansky brought in all these Sicilians who would say, no, the beaches are 00:22:21.340 --> 00:22:23.600 soft here. Don't go here. Go here. 00:22:23.760 --> 00:22:27.400 And when you get to this particular place, see Vincenzo. 00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:32.540 The Italian naval intelligence officers, American intelligence officers, 00:22:32.540 --> 00:22:39.480 were the liaisons when they got to Sicily and were very, very helpful in the 00:22:39.480 --> 00:22:42.760 taking of the island when the invasion happened. 00:22:42.760 --> 00:22:46.100 So that's really the World War II story. From what I could see from what you 00:22:46.100 --> 00:22:50.380 said, Eric, how the cutouts, you know, the president didn't get a call from 00:22:50.380 --> 00:22:53.160 Mayor Lansky, the cutout that his friend. 00:22:53.812 --> 00:23:00.112 Jacob Asser or the Astor family, somebody he designated then was a liaison and 00:23:00.112 --> 00:23:01.492 somebody else was a liaison. 00:23:01.812 --> 00:23:09.352 And then they got this Navy commander to do really the down and dirty work right on the streets. 00:23:09.612 --> 00:23:13.632 So the government works about like the mob sometimes, don't they? 00:23:14.252 --> 00:23:18.192 Well, that's exactly right. I mean, we'll get to the story of Lyndon Johnson. 00:23:18.192 --> 00:23:24.232 When Lyndon Johnson had passed the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the three civil 00:23:24.232 --> 00:23:29.892 rights workers disappeared right after that, and also another civil rights leader, 00:23:30.112 --> 00:23:34.872 a man named Vernon Dahmer, was killed by the Klan. 00:23:34.872 --> 00:23:39.572 And what ended up happening in the movie, in the movie Mississippi Burning. 00:23:40.412 --> 00:23:46.852 An FBI agent tortured a Klansman, held a razor to his privates and said, 00:23:46.952 --> 00:23:49.572 you know, give up the location of the bodies. 00:23:49.732 --> 00:23:56.192 What really happened is they sent, as LBJ said to Hoover, and this is on tape, 00:23:56.292 --> 00:23:57.252 I don't care what you have to do. 00:23:57.612 --> 00:24:01.972 Do what you got to do. And Hoover's going, well, I don't really care about civil 00:24:01.972 --> 00:24:05.712 rights, but I have the president breathing down my neck. And they had just turned 00:24:05.712 --> 00:24:09.632 a man named Greg Scarpa as an informant of the Colombo family, 00:24:09.632 --> 00:24:11.492 an absolute psychopathic killer. 00:24:11.652 --> 00:24:16.412 And they sent Scarpa down, and Scarpa played a role, 00:24:16.672 --> 00:24:21.572 some role in finding the three civil rights workers, but he really played a 00:24:21.572 --> 00:24:28.692 larger role in finding the killers of the civil rights worker Vernon Dahmer a couple years later. 00:24:28.692 --> 00:24:34.432 So the point here is not that Lyndon Johnson sat down with Carlo Gambino or Joe Colombo. 00:24:34.572 --> 00:24:38.292 Of course he did. What he did is he said to J. Edgar Hoover, do what you got to do. 00:24:38.432 --> 00:24:43.712 And Hoover said, I have to produce because I have a lousy – I mean, 00:24:43.832 --> 00:24:46.612 Hoover didn't care about civil rights, but he had to do something. 00:24:46.892 --> 00:24:51.412 And what did he do? He went to the mob. So that really tells you the kind of 00:24:51.412 --> 00:24:55.052 attenuated, staggering layers with which it works. 00:24:55.052 --> 00:24:59.092 But the bottom line was the mob was very active in World War II, 00:24:59.092 --> 00:25:02.252 and they were very active in other programs as well with presidents. 00:25:02.452 --> 00:25:07.752 Got something about Ronald Reagan and Lou Washerman. I'd not heard this story 00:25:07.752 --> 00:25:09.152 before. Tell us about that. 00:25:10.088 --> 00:25:13.468 Well, you know, my friends, I was a kid. 00:25:13.608 --> 00:25:16.988 I was 22 years old in Reagan's White House and not all my friends. 00:25:17.088 --> 00:25:22.848 I tell you that because I don't want to make it sound like I was some important person. I was there. 00:25:23.028 --> 00:25:26.488 And so my old bosses are not thrilled that I did a Reagan chapter, 00:25:26.568 --> 00:25:31.048 but how could I not? Reagan, his career mentor was Lew Wasserman, 00:25:31.068 --> 00:25:36.648 who was the powerhouse behind MCA. 00:25:36.768 --> 00:25:39.068 We know it more as Universal today. 00:25:39.548 --> 00:25:44.028 And Reagan's career was going nowhere. And Lew Wasserman saved him. 00:25:44.168 --> 00:25:48.748 He saved him by getting him the contract to host GE Theater, 00:25:48.748 --> 00:25:52.688 which was a big TV show at the time. And it saved Reagan's career. 00:25:52.908 --> 00:25:56.908 It gave him experience going around the country and talking about issues. 00:25:56.908 --> 00:26:03.048 And it took Reagan from kind of a no-account movie star into America's living 00:26:03.048 --> 00:26:08.688 rooms where he was talking to them every week and introducing movies and other things. 00:26:10.428 --> 00:26:17.308 Lou Wasserman's career, I mean, the MCA was built on the back of Mob Muscle 00:26:17.308 --> 00:26:22.128 because it was founded by his then boss, Jules Stein, in Chicago. 00:26:22.268 --> 00:26:27.688 And they had deals to book bands. And so what it was is, yeah, 00:26:27.788 --> 00:26:31.628 we'll help you book bans in our locations, but you got to give us a cut. 00:26:31.748 --> 00:26:34.188 So this goes back to the beginning of MCA. 00:26:34.668 --> 00:26:38.688 Lou Wasserman's best friend was Sidney Korshak, a name I know you know, 00:26:38.988 --> 00:26:45.008 the attorney for the Chicago outfit and the primary link between the mob and 00:26:45.008 --> 00:26:48.428 labor and legitimate business and government. 00:26:48.428 --> 00:26:54.948 And so Lou Wasserman, the way he got things done and assured there would be 00:26:54.948 --> 00:27:02.588 labor peace was he built Sidney Korshak into the cost of doing business. 00:27:02.648 --> 00:27:08.108 And one of the questions that always comes up is, was the Chicago outfit shaking Wasserman down? 00:27:08.308 --> 00:27:11.708 Well, that's not how Wasserman saw it. Wasserman saw it as he was paying for 00:27:11.708 --> 00:27:16.248 a service. You know, if you're trying to shoot TV shows and movies and some, 00:27:16.488 --> 00:27:19.968 it's worth a lot of money to make sure a strike doesn't happen. 00:27:20.268 --> 00:27:25.308 That's what Korshack brought to it. And so the Chicago outfit was compensated 00:27:25.308 --> 00:27:27.348 in that way. What does that have to do with Reagan? 00:27:27.928 --> 00:27:31.768 Well, Reagan was, and Lou Wasserman were very close. 00:27:32.008 --> 00:27:35.268 Reagan wasn't close to Sidney Korshack, but they knew each other. 00:27:35.268 --> 00:27:41.528 And one of the things that Reagan, that Lou Wasserman got out of the deal is 00:27:41.528 --> 00:27:48.648 there was a time when you couldn't both be in the movie business and the TV production business. 00:27:48.648 --> 00:27:53.248 And Reagan gave Wasserman, when he was head of the Screen Actors Guild, 00:27:53.548 --> 00:27:59.488 a waiver to allow him to compete in multiple worlds. Yeah. 00:28:00.276 --> 00:28:05.576 This is something that while there's no proof that the mob per se ordered this, 00:28:05.756 --> 00:28:11.856 here you have a future president of the United States, very close to someone 00:28:11.856 --> 00:28:17.156 for whom everyday dealings with organized crime was a very big part of it. 00:28:17.156 --> 00:28:20.356 Later, during Reagan's presidency, 00:28:21.036 --> 00:28:28.776 interestingly, it turned out that there were Gambino family members working inside of MCA, 00:28:28.896 --> 00:28:39.136 but the prosecutorial attention toward them wasn't as intense as Reagan's prosecution of other mobsters. 00:28:39.296 --> 00:28:42.356 It would be incorrect to say, oh, Reagan didn't prosecute the mob. 00:28:42.496 --> 00:28:46.916 He prosecuted the mob in a very big way. That's when the commission trial was. 00:28:47.156 --> 00:28:52.376 But Korshack's people out in L.A. 00:28:52.496 --> 00:28:58.856 And to some extent in Chicago, the teeth were not sunk as hard into them. 00:28:59.036 --> 00:29:03.816 And so, you know, if you talk to some of the prosecutors, as I did, 00:29:03.996 --> 00:29:09.536 they will tell you that word came on down high from the Reagan administration. 00:29:09.696 --> 00:29:12.776 You don't want Korshack. You don't want that crowd. 00:29:13.516 --> 00:29:17.596 And it was really quite interesting. I mean, my friend Dan Moldea has written 00:29:17.596 --> 00:29:20.176 very effectively about this. 00:29:20.296 --> 00:29:23.536 And one of the things that I heard from some of the people who were willing 00:29:23.536 --> 00:29:29.136 to talk to me years later is, you know, Reagan was protective of his friends. 00:29:29.636 --> 00:29:33.316 Nobody ever had to give an official order or threaten somebody. 00:29:33.316 --> 00:29:36.996 But I think that it was understood at high levels of the Justice Department 00:29:36.996 --> 00:29:41.776 that we really don't want to make trouble for Reagan's friends. 00:29:42.560 --> 00:29:51.340 And while I wouldn't say Reagan made no trouble to the Chicago Corshack world, 00:29:51.620 --> 00:29:55.300 they definitely got off way light. 00:29:55.460 --> 00:30:02.300 And the former prosecutors feel very betrayed by it and were horrified by that. 00:30:02.420 --> 00:30:05.100 And it all comes back to the Wasserman-Reagan connection. 00:30:05.340 --> 00:30:11.500 I mean, Wasserman saved Reagan. Going back to Chicago, there's all these stories 00:30:11.500 --> 00:30:16.320 about the outfit and JFK, and we don't want to go into the murder, 00:30:16.540 --> 00:30:19.040 the assassination of JFK, I think. 00:30:19.180 --> 00:30:27.740 But the whole thing about his Joe Kennedy and Sam Giancana getting the votes 00:30:27.740 --> 00:30:31.220 for Joe Kennedy, and then Joe Kennedy is supposed to be some quid pro quo. 00:30:31.480 --> 00:30:34.340 So I know you touched on that. Yeah, let's talk about that. But, 00:30:34.440 --> 00:30:38.380 oh, I talk about it a lot because I think that one of the things you always 00:30:38.380 --> 00:30:40.800 hear is the Kennedys and the mob. 00:30:41.300 --> 00:30:44.600 Like the Kennedys are one unit. They were not one unit. 00:30:45.060 --> 00:30:48.500 Joe, Jack, and Bobby were three very different units. 00:30:48.860 --> 00:30:54.220 Yeah. So when you hear the mob and the Kennedys, a lot of the reporting on this 00:30:54.220 --> 00:30:59.080 is really kind of histrionic and overly Oliver Stone for my taste. 00:30:59.260 --> 00:31:05.320 But here's what I do believe happened. What I do believe happened is that Joe 00:31:05.320 --> 00:31:09.380 Kennedy knew that his son would need labor support. 00:31:09.840 --> 00:31:16.420 Joe Kennedy, most likely through an intermediary, went to Jimmy Blue Eyes, 00:31:16.580 --> 00:31:18.540 Vincent Alo, Meyer Lansky's partner. 00:31:18.780 --> 00:31:21.640 And I've known Jimmy's family for many, many years. 00:31:22.800 --> 00:31:27.200 And Jimmy said to Joe Kennedy, and by the way, I'm grossly oversimplifying this 00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:29.460 for the sake of storytelling. telling. 00:31:29.700 --> 00:31:34.500 But Jimmy said, look, I don't want to get involved with elections. 00:31:35.660 --> 00:31:39.260 We've gotten burned with that before. Contrary to popular opinion, 00:31:39.440 --> 00:31:45.360 Meyer and Jimmy Alo were very, very skeptical of doing business with national politicians. 00:31:45.620 --> 00:31:47.500 And so was the Chicago outfit, by the way. 00:31:48.120 --> 00:31:52.420 Giancana's decision to help Kennedy out was not universally loved. 00:31:52.580 --> 00:31:58.860 And so Alo said, talk to Sinatra. So Joe Kennedy talks to Sinatra. 00:31:59.240 --> 00:32:06.100 Sinatra makes some kind of introduction to Giancana. And the deal was very simple. 00:32:07.620 --> 00:32:12.460 We'll help your son. We'll help him get some votes. But we hope. 00:32:13.267 --> 00:32:16.647 And he's been a pain in the ass to us in these prosecutions. 00:32:16.867 --> 00:32:21.547 I mean, JFK was, you know, a part of the committee that was prosecuting, 00:32:21.667 --> 00:32:24.827 looking into the mob in the Senate. Bobby, we certainly know about. 00:32:25.107 --> 00:32:31.227 And even though there is no evidence that anybody ever said that Giancana said, 00:32:31.407 --> 00:32:36.967 we will only do this if you do that, it doesn't need to be said. 00:32:37.307 --> 00:32:43.267 Joe Kennedy knew what was implied. And here's where I think history gets a little confusing. 00:32:43.507 --> 00:32:49.687 There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Kennedy did receive the help from 00:32:49.687 --> 00:32:54.287 Labor, Illinois, West Virginia, and other places. 00:32:54.507 --> 00:33:01.487 But the idea that this necessarily turned the election, I think there's a lot 00:33:01.487 --> 00:33:05.867 of doubt there. I mean, JFK probably would have gotten Illinois anyway. 00:33:06.067 --> 00:33:13.887 And so the point is not whether or not the mob won the 60 election for JFK. 00:33:13.887 --> 00:33:18.127 It's that they were asked for help and they received the help. 00:33:18.427 --> 00:33:24.167 Now, there was a big fight between Joe Kennedy around that time and his son 00:33:24.167 --> 00:33:30.427 Bobby, who he said, you can't keep going after these guys, Hammer and Tom. 00:33:30.867 --> 00:33:33.587 And Bobby Kennedy, he was a purist. 00:33:34.047 --> 00:33:39.507 He wanted to go after them. And there's a quote that I used in the book where 00:33:39.507 --> 00:33:45.167 one of the Kennedy family's top aides said Jack's hair would have turned white 00:33:45.167 --> 00:33:49.267 if he had any idea what his father, the extent of what his father was up to. 00:33:49.427 --> 00:33:55.627 So here you have a situation where Joe Kennedy unquestionably looked for the 00:33:55.627 --> 00:34:02.007 labor support, but there's no evidence that Bobby and Jack did anything other than benefit from it. 00:34:02.107 --> 00:34:05.067 And one of the things I talk about in the book is one of the great things about 00:34:05.067 --> 00:34:07.447 being a rich kid is you don't have to know. 00:34:08.147 --> 00:34:13.407 And did they know? They knew. But did they know? 00:34:14.383 --> 00:34:20.423 No, not in a provable way. And that distance actually matters. 00:34:20.663 --> 00:34:25.463 I mean, you could say, well, you know, that doesn't make them any more pure. Well, maybe not. 00:34:25.803 --> 00:34:32.203 But it does protect you to some degree to have that level of insulation. 00:34:32.723 --> 00:34:38.523 And then we get to the challenge of Fidel Castro, where one of the things you 00:34:38.523 --> 00:34:44.043 hear people talking about is, you know, LBJ famously said, my God, 00:34:44.183 --> 00:34:46.963 the Kennedys were running a murder incorporated in the Caribbean. 00:34:47.603 --> 00:34:53.323 Well, let's look at the facts. The fact is, is the campaign to kill Castro did 00:34:53.323 --> 00:34:54.503 not start with the Kennedys. 00:34:54.823 --> 00:34:56.623 It started under Eisenhower. 00:34:57.243 --> 00:35:02.243 And there is a big question mark as to how much Eisenhower knew. 00:35:02.483 --> 00:35:06.763 One of the point people who did know was none other than Richard Nixon. 00:35:07.143 --> 00:35:11.163 He didn't know everything, but he knew that the effort was afoot. 00:35:12.523 --> 00:35:19.623 So the mafia, Johnny Roselli, Giancana, Santo Traficante, they were activated 00:35:19.623 --> 00:35:23.883 under the Eisenhower administration, not the Kennedy administration. 00:35:24.303 --> 00:35:30.483 When the Kennedys took over, Bobby, for someone who's gone down in history is 00:35:30.483 --> 00:35:36.043 so peace-loving, was absolutely adamant that Castro was killed. 00:35:36.263 --> 00:35:42.723 But he preferred that Cuban exiles would do it. And somebody ended up telling him, J. 00:35:42.863 --> 00:35:49.803 Edgar Hoover being one of them, that the mafia was being used. Bobby was not happy. 00:35:51.503 --> 00:35:55.843 And the idea that Bobby was enthusiastic about using the mob, 00:35:55.943 --> 00:36:00.803 not true. But basically, the CIA said, all right, so this is how it is, Bobby. 00:36:01.143 --> 00:36:05.923 You want Castro dead, but you want us to use the nicest people to do it. 00:36:07.683 --> 00:36:13.043 Is this where we are? And so, you know, among the quotes I use in the book were 00:36:13.043 --> 00:36:17.643 people around Kennedy who said he knew, but he wasn't thrilled about it. 00:36:18.383 --> 00:36:25.343 And so, again, we have the scenario of they were aware of mob involvement. They benefited from it. 00:36:25.863 --> 00:36:27.923 But did they know the details? Probably not. 00:36:28.883 --> 00:36:34.403 Yeah, I think people don't really understand sometimes the power of a wink and a nod and say, okay. 00:36:35.523 --> 00:36:38.783 Well, you know, it's funny because, I mean, I won't get into current politics, 00:36:38.963 --> 00:36:40.163 but I mean, in any big way. 00:36:40.303 --> 00:36:47.083 But my investigative reporter friends were obsessed with the idea of Russian collusion with Trump. 00:36:47.403 --> 00:36:52.503 And I said to them, look, I'm not going to take a position pro-Trump or anti-Trump, 00:36:52.503 --> 00:36:58.803 But I will take the position that you are assuming that collusion means Putin 00:36:58.803 --> 00:37:02.883 snuck into Trump Tower and passed over a briefcase. 00:37:03.143 --> 00:37:08.583 No, in all likelihood, it was Putin said, boy, I hate Hillary. 00:37:09.963 --> 00:37:12.943 This Trump guy wants to do business in my country. 00:37:13.915 --> 00:37:17.275 Let's throw a little his way, and maybe he'll throw something back our way. 00:37:17.455 --> 00:37:20.595 That doesn't require breaking the law. 00:37:20.915 --> 00:37:25.535 Now, was a law broken? Not that Mueller could find. But it gets to the point 00:37:25.535 --> 00:37:32.175 I think you're making, which is critical, which is it doesn't require there 00:37:32.175 --> 00:37:35.055 to be intense conspiracies. 00:37:35.055 --> 00:37:38.475 And this is what made Watergate so interesting, because you had the president 00:37:38.475 --> 00:37:40.835 who was actively involved in the cover-up. 00:37:41.135 --> 00:37:43.475 And that's not what you do. 00:37:44.795 --> 00:37:48.975 I know. He didn't understand the power of a wink and a nod to his underlies. 00:37:49.295 --> 00:37:52.875 You just look at him and say, you know what? You just got to do what you got to do. 00:37:53.375 --> 00:37:57.515 See you later. Take care of this for me. Well, that's right. 00:37:57.595 --> 00:38:01.095 And here you have, and I talk about in the book, Nixon on tape going, 00:38:01.235 --> 00:38:03.795 we need you to break into the Brookings Institute. 00:38:04.055 --> 00:38:07.995 We need to do it on a thievery basis. It's on tape. 00:38:09.955 --> 00:38:15.735 Which uh speaking of nixon what about that did he take a million dollars to let jimmy hoff out, 00:38:16.715 --> 00:38:23.295 well you know probably i i think that the bigger issue than nixon the nixon 00:38:23.295 --> 00:38:28.755 campaign taking the money and by the way you know it's not clear whether it 00:38:28.755 --> 00:38:33.295 would have been nixon taking it or the Nixon campaign taking it. 00:38:33.555 --> 00:38:39.295 But the thing that they really wanted was there's this process that began during 00:38:39.295 --> 00:38:45.935 the Kennedy era of turning labor from Democrats to Republicans because the argument 00:38:45.935 --> 00:38:48.415 has always been, why would labor go to Republicans, 00:38:48.775 --> 00:38:51.295 you know, given that Republicans are pro-business? 00:38:51.455 --> 00:38:56.035 Well, one thing that happened is Bobby Kennedy went after Jimmy Hoffa. 00:38:57.135 --> 00:39:03.475 And that was an opportunity. And one of the things that a friend of mine who 00:39:03.475 --> 00:39:07.775 was very senior to me in the White House said is we knew, Reagan knew, 00:39:08.649 --> 00:39:13.409 They couldn't win over labor on economics, but they could win over labor on culture. 00:39:13.929 --> 00:39:18.029 And that the Reagan people began to notice that, first of all, 00:39:18.069 --> 00:39:21.829 they couldn't stand Carter. The labor people couldn't relate to him at all. 00:39:22.009 --> 00:39:27.629 But showing up to Reagan rallies, you'd have guys, labor people in cowboy hats and sidearms. 00:39:27.889 --> 00:39:31.029 And culturally, they liked the Republicans more. 00:39:31.149 --> 00:39:37.349 And a lot of what Nixon was looking for was labor support. And I think that 00:39:37.349 --> 00:39:44.669 the deal was Fitzsimmons had taken over when Hoffa went to jail. 00:39:44.889 --> 00:39:48.389 The mob was very happy with Fitzsimmons, especially when Hoffa started making 00:39:48.389 --> 00:39:49.789 noises. This is my union. 00:39:49.829 --> 00:39:53.749 I'm going to come back. I'm going to blow the whistle on all you guys. Not good. 00:39:54.209 --> 00:40:02.349 And the deal Nixon taught was not a pardon, but for Hoffa's sentence to be commuted, 00:40:02.349 --> 00:40:06.329 provided that he didn't run for office for a certain amount of time. 00:40:06.769 --> 00:40:09.729 And he ended up with Fitzsimmons in power. 00:40:09.909 --> 00:40:15.129 Fitzsimmons threw Teamsters' support behind Nixon. 00:40:15.389 --> 00:40:18.849 Nixon got what he wanted. The problem, of course, is this set in motion, 00:40:19.029 --> 00:40:24.929 Hoffa's desire to return to power, which is not something that the mob wanted. 00:40:24.929 --> 00:40:28.329 And if he had been willing to retire, he would have lived to a ripe old age. 00:40:28.409 --> 00:40:32.429 He wasn't willing to retire. But in terms of the wise guys and the White House 00:40:32.429 --> 00:40:37.709 theme, no question, Nixon did a lot of work with the unions. 00:40:37.809 --> 00:40:42.429 They were controlled by the mob, and he benefited from it. 00:40:42.569 --> 00:40:50.509 He also benefited from deals in South Florida with some mobbed-up characters, some land deals. 00:40:50.669 --> 00:40:55.169 I mean, Nixon, you know, it's funny. 00:40:55.869 --> 00:41:00.029 Nixon, you always hear that he was paranoid. Yeah, he was paranoid, 00:41:00.069 --> 00:41:02.069 but these people really were out to get him. 00:41:03.749 --> 00:41:09.289 And he didn't help himself by always having his hand out for money and getting 00:41:09.289 --> 00:41:13.289 involved in some deals that he shouldn't have, including with some banks that 00:41:13.289 --> 00:41:14.429 were heavily mob-connected. 00:41:15.049 --> 00:41:19.509 Yeah, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean somebody's not out to get you, right? Yeah. 00:41:20.467 --> 00:41:23.907 Well, yeah. And the mistake Nixon made was not being paranoid. 00:41:24.127 --> 00:41:28.087 It's that the actions that he took, um, he could have said, look, 00:41:28.147 --> 00:41:30.927 these people are out to get me, but there's nothing I can do about it. 00:41:30.987 --> 00:41:33.967 Let me just go and win the election, which of course he did in a landslide, 00:41:34.107 --> 00:41:37.587 which is why it's so tragic. He didn't have to do any of that stuff. 00:41:40.267 --> 00:41:45.047 Great. Eric, this has been wonderful. This is a, I tell you guys, you got to get this book. 00:41:45.107 --> 00:41:50.707 You want to crack beyond some of the myths that you see on Facebook and from 00:41:50.707 --> 00:41:54.587 your friends sometimes you want to become the definitive expert on some of these 00:41:54.587 --> 00:41:58.087 things, get this book, Wise Guys in the White House, 00:41:58.707 --> 00:42:01.107 Gangsters, Presidents, and the Deals They Made. 00:42:01.127 --> 00:42:03.547 Let me tell you, let me read you one little thing here. 00:42:04.027 --> 00:42:07.407 Ronald Kessler, who is a New York Times bestselling author, said, 00:42:07.527 --> 00:42:10.747 Wise Guys in the White House is an eye-opening, authoritative, 00:42:10.987 --> 00:42:16.207 remarkably detailed expose of the interplay between organized crime and our presidents. 00:42:17.067 --> 00:42:21.747 Shockingly revealing how close we have come to mob rule. So there's a lot in 00:42:21.747 --> 00:42:24.027 this book, guys. You got to get it. 00:42:24.267 --> 00:42:28.887 And Eric, I really appreciate you coming on the show. And you've enlightened me. 00:42:29.127 --> 00:42:33.107 I'll get around to reading this book now for sure after talking to you. I just hadn't had time. 00:42:33.327 --> 00:42:37.447 Well, Gary, my final point, just something to cause people to lose their minds 00:42:37.447 --> 00:42:39.567 is, no, the mob didn't kill JFK. 00:42:39.787 --> 00:42:42.407 So that's my concluding remark. Okay. 00:42:43.087 --> 00:42:47.207 All right. and guys we didn't even get into the Biden and the Trump White Houses 00:42:47.207 --> 00:42:51.367 so you got that to look forward to when you get that book as a little teaser for you right. 00:42:52.964 --> 00:42:55.724 Exactly there's a lot on trump and the thing to know 00:42:55.724 --> 00:42:58.824 about trump is he was oddly honest all the 00:42:58.824 --> 00:43:01.864 way across about having done business with the mob that's what's 00:43:01.864 --> 00:43:05.084 so hilarious well you can't do construction in manhattan 00:43:05.084 --> 00:43:08.764 without doing business with the concrete club right the window 00:43:08.764 --> 00:43:11.724 well that's that is why trump built 00:43:11.724 --> 00:43:15.904 trump tower with concrete not steel there you 00:43:15.904 --> 00:43:19.064 go guys uh i really appreciate y'all 00:43:19.064 --> 00:43:22.064 listening and uh i hope you get this book and 00:43:22.064 --> 00:43:25.324 don't forget i like to ride motorcycles so watch out for motorcycles when 00:43:25.324 --> 00:43:28.024 you're out there in your cars and if you have a problem with 00:43:28.024 --> 00:43:31.124 ptsd and you've been in this service go to the va website 00:43:31.124 --> 00:43:34.124 and get that hotline number and if you have a problem with 00:43:34.124 --> 00:43:37.424 drugs or alcohol which is hand in hand with ptsd why 00:43:37.424 --> 00:43:41.304 uh anthony ruggiano a former gambino prospect 00:43:41.304 --> 00:43:44.184 a possible member is a drug 00:43:44.184 --> 00:43:47.004 and alcohol counselor down in florida and i'll go figure that but he 00:43:47.004 --> 00:43:50.384 is i had him on the show once he's a really nice guy and he 00:43:50.384 --> 00:43:53.964 has a hotline on his website and uh 1-800 bets 00:43:53.964 --> 00:43:56.844 off i think for gambling problems and and that's 00:43:56.844 --> 00:44:02.184 enough uh social uh promotion today i guess it's not promotion but uh uh dealing 00:44:02.184 --> 00:44:05.464 with those kinds of issues which you know we all have to a greater or lesser 00:44:05.464 --> 00:44:10.484 extent i think at least i have in my past don't forget to look at my find my 00:44:10.484 --> 00:44:15.704 books they're on amazon just go to amazon and search Gary Jenkins and Mafia, 00:44:15.724 --> 00:44:19.444 and you'll find more than you ever wanted to know about me. So thanks a lot, guys. 00:44:19.864 --> 00:44:23.104 Thank you, Eric. Thank you.