Hi. I'm Cl.
Welcome to season 4 of just sustainability.
The next segment of the conversation between Valentine
Cad do and I was sparked by me
asking her about how she conceptualize food justice.
Our conversation about how Food just should be
defined. Let us see chatting about critical media
literacy and how we collectively self motivate for
positive change.
But before we get to listen to that
conversation, I want to quickly define a concept
that Valentine and I refer to several times.
Specifically, the idea of pre politics.
For those of you who aren't familiar with
that term of art, pre politics, our approaches
to community or social organizing and relationship building
that are intentionally structured to model the social
political aspirations of the folks doing that organizing
or relationship building.
For example, if want to leave that community
governance should be based on authentic human relationships,
The has strive to integrate getting to know
1 another and developing robust understanding of 1
another into public discussions.
With that noted, back to our main conversation.
You mentioned you're interested in Food justice. And
I actually became first familiar with you by
reading some articles of yours
about food justice and
really appreciating the fact that you think about
food... Well,
I don't... Yeah. I I don't know. I
I was gonna say think about it in
a really unique way, but III
think more people are trying to think about,
but I think you're you're 1 of the
people who... First started talking about, like, in
the academic literature, but food justice in a
way that I really like that I hadn't
seen prior to reading your articles, which is
I I think a lot of folks
prior to your work talked about food justice
as a noun. Right? As an outcome as
like a specific state of affairs. That we
were trying to achieve. But you talk about
Food justice more like a verb. Right? For
you, it seemed to me that Food justice
is a process
and you don't achieve food justice. You do
food justice. And so III don't wanna ask
you about, like, like, how do you think
about food justice. If you were to dis
instill your kind of thoughts about what food
justice is
in, you know, like, a couple minutes, what
would you say to somebody?
Well, and I feel like to begin with
a couple minutes,
there's just so many
folks to whom I debts of gratitude attitude.
So I just have to say, I'm really...
Mh. As a bodies of communities.
There are 3 big communities that I feel
like, oh have been so important. And here
in Minnesota, the Mh. N and Man neumann
S symposium that really came out of graduate
student organizing in solidarity. Mh. With the indigenous
communities that had sued the University Minnesota over
wild rice genomic sequencing. Mh.
And folks like Kyle Palace White and, you
know, people really thinking
about operational
ethics,
then then that
overlapping here in Minnesota with a 2012,
Mh. Lad donna Center's Redmond and Sam Brandt
and a whole amazing
consortium of folks
put on a food justice
2 or 3 day, you know, where are
we? It was right after the Kellogg food
and society program had collapse and a lot
of the entities that have since folded were
really struggling. Mh. And Food first was there,
kind of having bumped gone through some
transformations, and that community is really where this
work came out of, but but also
I think really
deepened by a long term engagement with the
agriculture food and human values society, which has
an academic home. I think really is... I
think it it models what I was saying
earlier about having a place where proof figured
of politics can practice. Okay. It's... As I
understand,
food agriculture oriented
academic
professional organization, both academics I think and activists
that was created by philosophers and really ethics
and action folks.
And
participating in all these
conversations, it became really clear that... Mh. 1
of the This is a lot like climate
change, Ethics, by the time you're are able
to measure
outcomes in Mh as you say now in
oriented ways,
it was too late. You know, like, if
you if you've tried to say, for justices
about people's, Mh. Bio,
thriving, which is
excessively focused on, I think in
especially in the funding apparatus that comes out
of community nutrition studies,
You end up... You know, like, by the
time somebody has experienced stunt. Mh. Their
their whole life course and that of of
many generations after them, that's already so affected.
Mh. And and write back at you. I
feel like your workarounds around
consent, I think, you know, when we each
were starting to work on. We didn't know
each other's work. But I... Mh. I
I've been excited to know you and to
have these conversations because I think consent is
again, I've become more and more focused on
consent based governance, and I've been very interested
in quaker and other...
Lateral processes
for making
decisions together.
Because so many of the issues we have
that are food injustice,
would be addressed. Mh. If we had more
consent. And I think I think fundamentally for
me the heart of it is our food
system is so predicated on a racial
colonial hierarchy.
Of whose whose labor is visible and counts
and who's can be invisible
at that
that feels like the heart of what needs
to be made visible and a process oriented
way. Because it allows...
I mean, and this is what then drives
me toward the
mediation and chaplain seeds. There's an emotional toolkit
people need. Because you have to keep eating.
Like 1 of the things that's so
compelling about food is a venue for work
is it Mh. Can't opt out, like like
you can
can conceptually opt out, Mh. But it's increasingly
difficult to ignore the food movement entirely.
But as we see, it's really easy to
not necessarily feature that idea that That we
have this hierarchy of labor. And I think
Covid made it much more visible? Yeah. Who
who is suddenly not? Like, like, where is
the system breaking down because of places that
are overs stressed? But... It it breaks my
heart how much... I mean, I debate this
with my father. And
interesting all of elder men and my life
are the ones who do grocery shopping. And
there's so much discussion about how much eggs
cost right now.
Like, well, let's talk about what egg should
cost? Like, you know, as they recalibrate from
new supply chain issues. Where do we not
see volatility and it's that in places that
already internalized to those costs and have accountable
relationships
can we have a little bit more bandwidth?
Like, where is the third and fifth grade
conversation about the cost of eggs? Mh. And
values should be accounting for. Yeah. This interesting.
So, like, the right things are saying makes
me talk to your previous
conversation about, like, Right? Landscape is pornography. Because,
again, right? Like, there's this... I think,
strike is a... Yeah. It is totally like
pornography. Yeah. But this is right. Like, bad
central of food really? And then the the
same sort of really strong
emotional reactions on folks are are challenged to
to think about
what food really is and what's involved with
food. Right? They did actually appreciate the full
complexity
and sort of richness of food systems, and
and that makes people uncomfortable because I think
we...
Right. We're conditioned to think of a food
in... I guess, in the United States at
least. And, I think many other places.
As you sort of... It's something we take
for granted. Rate. Something's just there. Like, despite
the fact that is,
Completely essential for us to survive.
We want to pay very little for it,
and we don't really think about the processes
that lead to it. We
like our food to
look...
I I mean I have another word. Right?
Like, look fake. Right? Like, we we don't
like food that looks like
food. We like food that looks like the
plato on ideal of food.
Yeah. I... Yeah. I've been thinking about this
a lot because I've been playing... I just
written essay say. For a Holly potty barn.
Mh. With him on teaching the semester, and
she's writing a collection on multi species relationships.
Okay.
In which is not a way that I
have often conceptualize my work, but she said,
hey do you? You don't have something you
want I'm saying this, and I I was
thinking about And then I'm sitting here as
we talk next to the shelf in my
dining
To 1 of these kind of classic Minnesota
built ins, and it's got I don't know
hundred yards of different things. There are in
various stages of fermentation. Mh. And I was
sitting here writing the other day thinking about
when do you let down the guard of
the modern h hydraulic kitchen. Yeah. Which you're
in Minneapolis,
home of general mills, like, that idea is
still alive and well. Mh. It's idea that
like fridge should be processed because it's safe.
Yeah. And there all these narratives that have
been used to... It's to secure a practical
he longevity for food processors. So, like, Saint
John's Bakery,
apparently, there was a bill passed on the
fifties. To the monks up at Saint. John's
used to produce a lot of bread in
Minnesota. Mh And general Mills got a
bill through the legislature that you could only
be a bread retailer if you sold across
interstate lines? And I I been wanting to
follow this up? I would love to know.
What's the conversation at that time? Yeah. Why
does that seem safer
and why... You know, and I... It's totally
consistent with everything that's in the food safety
and modernization act. Mh. But all of that
made me think, What is the emotional effort?
Like, what what are the tools needed to
trust something like a bread starter? Mh. Or
something that's maybe
requires a little bit less disgust sensitivity and
a little more exploratory
openness. Mh. And it it
I just started reading the care manifesto yesterday.
And part of what it points out is
that at times in which everybody is scrambling
for survival. Mh. The neo
ethic has made everyone valuable to the degree
that they're good worker. Mh. That that people
are most prone to defensive fear.
And so that that combination, I know these
are like, a bunch of abstract ideas I'm
throwing out there, but to pull them together,
feel like if you want somebody to be
less abstract afraid of something like an unknown
jar of yeast that you're gonna say like,
this will raise your bread for you. Mh.
And there's this opening all of a sudden
because commercial yeast supply chains have messed up.
Mh. You're like, okay. So I'm gonna give
this to you and you're gonna be concerned,
like, oh, my gosh What if it poison
me or what if it grows mold or
I've heard that Bread starters are really fuss.
Like, there's... Yeah. There's a way in which
I think... And I think this this is
part of what I thought was brilliant about
your analogy pornography.
I think
what we have learned soc physiological is that
pornography makes people self conscious because they're not
Crow. Mh. Like, their their idea of what
sexual identity is
is so fetish photoshopped and... But but also
like
expertise has been captured, and they can never
aspire to view that expert. I think that's
totally happened around. Food,
And at the same... Like, it's this weird
thing in which
advertising is on the sleigh of hand. That's
like, here is all this perfect food. You
could never make.
And also, we're not gonna let you see
behind the Like, you don't wanna stay on
the sauce just. It's like, yeah.
No. No. No. So this. Right? Like, The
food network has become this huge thing, the
last, like, 10:15 years. And, like, we have,
like, right. We features the... It features these
chefs. I'm, like, we have, like, it's... Maybe
you'll feel like they're foodie. But I think
most people have no idea what a commercial
kitchen is like. Right, if you if you
ever worked in a commercial kitchen, You you're
probably just like,
right? Like,
Yeah. You you would you would not fetish
size, like,
right chefs because, like, you know, having worked
in commercial kitchens. There's a lot of it's
kinda dirty. It's
a lot of things get microwave.
Everyone's just sort of like, kinda doing things
to the quickest way.
And where is our reality Tv about the
heroic dishwasher. Yeah. And but, yeah. Like, the
folks,
the distributors? I mean, there's. Yeah. Such... Cool
work going out in the profit through distribution
world.
And and I think those are these networks
of care, that people would genuinely be really
interested in. Mh. And they're already in
against it because they think they know. Of
the food network. Yeah. Or they think... Oh,
my god, this, like, nonprofit is gonna make
feel guilty or... Yeah.
You know, it's, again, it's like the challenges
of talking to people about climate change. She's
like... Yeah. I I have heard that story
once and I didn't like it because
here's is what I hold on to. Okay.
I don't know if I'm right. It's But
I feel like if people were more easily
oriented to action, which we had... Like, this
is what we know about climate changes that
we focus on climate change scenarios, vast majority,
especially like North American community is concerned about
climate change, but doesn't
know what they can do. Right. So I
think about this with food and with climate?
Can we more easily
give people ways
to participate and collect action that aren't just
voting with your for? That are... That with
which they could see meaningful change.
And if we could lead with the repair,
we can say see here's the repair and
action you can be part of this. Yeah.
I believe that that builds up people's capacity
to have empathy or alt
compassion in relation to problem. Yeah. But that
if we start with the problem,
people
are already so
jade and worn out by the neo regime
that they can't... They can't like, Yeah. Hold
space in their brain to get to the
repair. Yes. I really... I we're really focused
on this idea of repair technologies. And how
can we
expand these
ecology
some more people can get into them and
start the repair loans. Yeah. No. So... Yeah.
I I appreciate that you say that, because
right.
1 thing I have noticed is
there's...
Been in right a great increase in despair,
which I think is because we are, people
do understand the problem. Right? Like, I think
it's like,
I think it's it's the where person that's,
you know,
under maybe 55
who...
Denies climate change. Like, I I think... Right.
Like, maybe there was a generation that the
the propaganda worked on, but like, it's not
working anymore. Right, younger folks
I think universally recognize recognized the climate change
the thing. But
they have no sense of what to. At
least from, like, when I talked to my
students. Right? Like, that's the the thing I
hear most is that
climate... So thinking about climate change just makes
them sad because they they know it's a
probably no it's gonna be terrible
in their lifetimes but they have no like...
Right? They feel powerless to stop it. And
then yesterday, I was having to thought after
watching... I can't remember what it was. I
saw something and someone talked about voting with
your dollars. And I just had, like, that's
such a dis empowering idea to think right
to dis steal people down to, like, The
only sort of way to influence,
the world is super purchasing, and this is
particularly dis empowering for younger folks because as
we see with the, like, you know,
with, like, economic statistics, younger folks have much
less buying power than
previous generations of their age.
And Yeah. So I think it's exactly right
that we that
an important thing to do is to think
about how
to shift
conversations so that people...
See how they can be powerful, how they
can be effective. Right? To to recognize that
the the power that they have that I
think much of the ways
that our society has discourse suggests we don't
have power.
Yeah. Right. Right. Well, and it's interesting.
I mean, especially the vote with your dollar,
we know that the biggest
inertia Agents,
in dealing with these problems are the ones
with the most dollars. Right. So then
that's just a pet of despair. You know,
you're like, okay, well,
you know, like
We can't within that. But I think... I
mean, I've been thinking it
kind of be this like idea of moral
ecology and
you know, again, again, having
been breathing deeply a lot and thinking about
how to inhabit an institutional community that is
really... Experiencing despair and is...
I I think this comes back to the
critical media literacy. Mh. Component a little bit.
It's The simultaneous
massive dependence on technology,
especially the younger generation who's who's had their
education mediated by technology. Mh.
Combined with, like, there's relatively
gets pretty easy to control technology at this
point. Like like, on 1 hand, you know,
yes, there's there's a ton of
radical comm possibility,
but people live in such a
overwhelming sea of information. Mh. I think we've
seen in university context,
a pretty strategic limiting of how much people
can reach each other. Mh. And
and I think
this is where
I, especially as a, you know, I teach
environmental studies and thinking about the value of
environmental
education and getting people out. Side and getting
them away from technology a little bit. Mh.
I've I've often been really critical of these
perspectives because they tend
toward a
kind of a central view, technology is bad,
enough nature is good.
But with a critical lens on that
part of what I've been appreciating as something
that especially younger folks. And I mean, we're
not exempt from this, but needs to practice
is
being aware of the intentional economy and the
way that it's
it's manipulating emotions. Okay. So for example,
if you've grown up with a phone, this
is something that students working in especially the
classes where we're thinking about, like, the emotional
skill sets we need to deal climate change.
Mh. They've pointed out, but they have no
re orient
reflex when lost. Like they look at their
phones. And the idea of being able to
intentionally say How do I lessen my dependence
on my phone, and particularly,
like the neuro chemical,
in imp, off, like,
a reward. Like, I have uncertainty. I can
ex that uncertainty pretty quickly by looking at
my phone and finding answer to a question
or find out where I am and how
to get where I need to go. So
to to build
to build and
to begin with, like, the reassurance, uncertainty and
hope and the capacity to have some exploratory,
Mh. Buffer some space to be willing to
say I'm gonna put this thing down and
and endorse some discomfort
so that I'm able to be in... Mh.
Like more uncomfortable conversations more often, So On
d, 1 of the recent graduate who's been
working with me in the center for Justice
a law, which is my current administrative home
at Ham.
Recently brought to my attention this idea of,
negative feedback d for. Okay. That it demonstrated
that younger folks Mh get dis regulated more
easily in the face of negative feedback because
they've they've been able to have
this little, like, pocket machine that gives positive
feedback, like, I'm feeling
disconnected. I look at Facebook or I look
at Instagram Mri I, like, you know, find
something to comfort myself, and Cindy able to
kind of build up that capacity.
And and I think this comes back to,
you know, you are saying this this path
earlier on our conversation between the media question.
Yeah. And the food justice.
I think a lot of the public are...
Especially because I've remained uncomfortable with landscape pornography.
And I
I mean, personally, like, as part of my
personal practice. Yeah. I love trees and minds.
And,
like, I've I've...
Myself experienced
during the dis regulation of Covid and
war and. Know, everything going on,
so be able to prioritize just sitting down
to sketch for half hour. U. And being
able to turn off a little bit that
critical lens, it'd be, like,
I counter balance in the rest of my
life. I do so much work about transforming
our relationships from property to 1 of.
Relationship with land that I can now think
think of this,
you know, if I'm doing land based art.
Right now, it's devotion. It's not Mh. Feeding
into that economy. So I can turn off
my critical internal lens, and do that.
But part of what that allows me to
then have is that space of of inhabit
Mh. Hope rather than despair and kind of
build building up, whatever it is that creativity
gives you that's different than what, you know,
people selling you things through the attention economy
give you. And I really appreciated this. So
during our martin luther king
celebrations at Ham in the middle of, you
know, Mh. Pretty tumultuous to us times for
the community. There was a great deal of
discourage. And like, you know, we have not
lived up to doctor Chang.
Mh.
Operations for us and the spaces of with
beloved community are absent,
and I was there with Mel Gil 1
of the
amazing community leaders of urban agriculture and the
twin cities who has receiving the community beloved
Community award for him and
and and we just reflected that
folks who live in a discouraging space of
institutions. We this is... Again, we need to
expand,
the ecosystem, the community agriculture movement in the
Twin cities, I think is an amazing testament
to the beloved community. And to the degree
that people are able to inhabit that space
and live in those relationships. Mh. They have
this gift of of hope, and
in academics we call pre figure ne politics.
Of of living in a space of mutual
neutrality and reciprocity and rebuilding relationship of land
in each other. Mh. And of pairing these
harms, and it was...
It just... It made me think how much
of the, like, yeah. The art projects that
I've worked on are
are attempts to really,
like condense and crystallize to make that visible
to people in a way that might not
be visible know, you might have to be
part of a community garden? Mh. For a
couple seasons to get to see that. But
can you can you create a spectacle?
That is substantive and isn't just
like, all the things we criticize about Yeah.
Superficial of spectacle. But allow people to see
that that world of of justice and hope
and and beloved reciprocity is
is real. It's not just
something that people
hope is real. Yeah. Well... So and the
natural question is right? Because I I think...
Right. We're leading into the 1 wanting to
ask you, but write some of the media
literacy and thinking about use of media as
a way to... Right in empower folks by
by showing them possibilities.
Right? Possibilities of... I like the idea of,
like, right possibilities of the beloved community. Right?
Possibilities of
good relationships. Right? To get past
the sort of superficial,
highly produced sort of pornography
that 1 often finds in media. Right? Yeah,
So III
guess, this is a long way for me
to ask, like, so can you do that?
And how do you do that?? So, like,
I I think the answer is yes. Right?
Because I think you've you've done...
Recently, a lot of cool projects that are
doing that. But yeah. So I I guess
I'm just inviting you to tell us a
little about what you've been doing and, like,
and how
you've been thinking about using art to. To
reveal some of the those sort of the
the harder to see sort of deeper richer,
detail in both, like, relationships between communities, but
just... End relationships with the land. Yeah. And
I think,
I think the
the answer that's easy to say and hard
to do. Yeah. Is that it's rooted at
in community. Again, really, like, real relationship is
to build a relationship. Yeah. And
and that is hard. And I I am
massively grateful to to some thought leaders. I
think, again, here are the Twin cities, the
Twin theaters, the theaters of color collective Tiktok,
and the
racial equity fund collaborative? Okay. Did this Year
long
c residency
to think through
like, how funding
organizations
reproducing harmful
cultural
expectations? And how could they how could they
better
support
adjuster world.
And I think it was valuable that they
had done that prior to Covid and prior
to the Murder George Floyd.
Create
real relationships. I mean, a piece of what
was interesting to me hearing them talk about
that was that it took took a year,
of really regular meeting. Okay. For the folks
who were in the positions of power to
recognize what that power was and how it
needed to change. And it was it was
lovely. There was arts Us had 1 of
its annual gatherings
here in the Twin cities. And they did
a fish official style, q and a. And
there was this great moment where somebody
asked 1 of the fund a question, and
they said, you know, I'm not the right
person to answer that, and they're were like,
I'm gonna tap myself out and I see
in the audience, so and so who's really
the better person to answer that and Ask
them to come up on the stage. And
that just to see that shift going out
of people who have been the geek jeep.
Mh.
Sharing. You know, and, again, this is... I
recognize recognized with these pre politics moments their
keepers we're aspirational. Yeah. Like, you know, that's
1 such thing that's remarkable because it rarely
happens. Right. But when it happens, then you're
like, oh, what this happen more often Like,
we can normalize this. Mh. So I think...
And and for me with melvin gil, who
is gonna 1 of the c coordinators of
the urban farm Garden alliance. Have my this
organization I've been really involved in the Twin
cities community agricultural land trust,
And other organizations like the economic development association
in public Arts saint Paul Frey kemp Farm,
we had this 5 year project called the
Art Food at 5 town in Ron. Mh.
Really thinking about... And and part of it
what was amazing is it was connected to
25 other parallel projects around the country. The
focus of which was
dis invested urban food systems. Mh. And how
how an art based
of creative place making approach,
could bring you something
to the
health funding
that had previously dominated that space that was
different. Mh.
And
I think
as a, you know, and a lot of
what we did was really lifting out existing
community.
Meaning making and culture. U. So much human
culture is rock food. U. There's this at
1 of those even values meetings when it
was
Indiana University
in Bloom. They have an amazing material culture
museum. Mh. And they ended asked them to
to highlight some of their food and museum
traders were, like, you food people I think
food is exceptional.
Spread... They had taken a finding guide and
they were, like, x highlighted 90 percent of
the things in the in the training guide.
They were like, yeah. Everything humans make relates
to food. It is everything.
Let's, you know, you need to maybe ask
your questions in a more focused way, but
also it means you've got your finger on
heart of meeting making. Mh. So I think
with that,
ethos of... I mean,
had to get this into the conversation because
it's so powerful and again so much what
we need. Mh. The metric
this, so the c foundation was a major
fund of this art of food project and
Da enterprises was an excellent
facilitator of this and the main metric they
ask people was as you do your work.
Mh.
Instead of pounds of vegetables, which is what
everybody wants to know.
Mean, which means we grow watermelon, pumpkins which
are actually really hard to share because they're
heavy. Right. You know, there's there's is real
problems with metrics and they can be be
great. But like, they need to be better
metrics? Theirs was,
how you gotten people who haven't been involved
in food decision making into positions of power
decision making. That's And they didn't use that.
Iso isn't that beautiful. Yes. I didn't tell
you what the... Like, you as a community
had to figure out what are those positions?
Yeah. And in most... Says it was building
new positions because there weren't really good positions.
Were accessible to community members. Yeah. But with
the emergence of food policy councils or even
better yet,
existing,
you know, neighborhood based governance or whatever it
is, able to say, yeah, who is a
part of this and hear are people who
already have a ton knowledge about this? Like
the dishwasher who we aren't in the cave
all the people doing catering out of their
homes. To be And,
yeah, How do we lift that up? Yeah.
So some of these may be more spectacle
based
through advance?
So here in the twin, I think your
things we've done that have been
more well known.
Have done with Marina And a bunch of
other.
Collaborators, we did a big multi year project
called making the best of it Dan I.
It's about eating dan lines is way to
cope with climate change? Yes.
And and she had done a previous iteration
of this in the Gulf of Mexico, that
I was about eating jellyfish. Okay. And okay.
What thrive and climate change? These are these
signal species that are telling us something is
changing. Yeah. How do we build the relationship
with them? Yeah. And again, right, it comes
down to relationship, Like, part of what made
that project with... So well as we ask
people
to speak
to enter the project from their relationship with
Dan. Mh. And it turns out good or
bad,
a surprising number of people have had the
some relationship with Dan lens. Yeah. And they
could then, you know, you create an interaction
mechanic that has a lot of abstract
you know, apparatus that helps invite people in
particular directions,
you know, but we also had
dos like the guides who brought people through
that project, Mh. And we had... We had
created a a scene was like share some
of the experiences we're trying to cultivate. Mh.
But you're welcome.
You know, we've we've done workshops with them
to cultivate their own
authentic relational
situation in the space and like, what they
wanted to invite people into? And I think
it's that that ecosystem systemic
relationship attention? Like, can you make a space,
that allows people to be who they are
and gives them some reassurance so that they're
willing to take some risks. Yeah. And then
makes those risks.
Lead to places of repair. So so 1
of the things that was shocking and amazing,
and it made me rethink all of my
biases about the Midwest
we had a little hut in that project
in the first iteration where a person in
a heads to toe yellow suit.
Like a
nylon...
See It was very weird. Yeah.
A fizzy dan root fermented beverage we've made
into people's mouths. And and we were thinking
about the relationship between... Like, Dan is is
known to be very nourishing to the microbiome.
I think you... Don't think about the microbiome.
So we had the silk flag of the
microbiome. And, you know, and then you went
from there to to look out over... It
was right before they closed to the lock
dam and Yeah. Just
head of the nav Mississippi and Dan lands
are now commodity you could get in the
c ops 12 months a year. So we're
thinking about the microbiome. But in the microbiome
stop,
hundreds of people came through. I mean Northern
Spark, it's an event, 10000 people come to.
Yeah. And every single person who came through
accepted having this weirdly dressed figure
drip an unknown bitter, fizzy substance their well.
No And and it was a consent process.
Right. Right.
People were invited and they we had... We
had expected a lot of people would opt
out, and we had made a whole script
for this, So Yeah. No 1 opted that.
And that made anything, Like, that really reinforced
my belief that part of what people need
is like this giant sensory
existential hug. Mh.
You're like,
yeah.
It's a disaster
and we've got each other's backs. But like,
what you're feeling is real?
And let's make a space where you can
relax from minute it. Yeah. And then you
could stretch in a new direction. No. And
I think... Yeah. Go ahead. No. I'm just
right. I I think that's exactly right. Right?
So earlier, you had some... Said something about
metrics and... Right We had talked about metrics
and you said something about
Oh, what did... What was I thinking? Something
about, oh, health. Right? Like, we we tend
to... Like, right. Like, the metrics tend to
be really thin about health.
And when... Right... I think he... You're exactly
right that.
1 of the ways we need to kind
of broaden the ways we think about, like,
positive outcomes is to be more mindful about
wellness more broadly. Right? Like, I I think...
Right. Having people feel hugged,
Right? Like, the... This sort of a existential
hug
and and the acknowledgement of care and and
the recognition that
we have care even if things are kind
of bad. Right? That we we all essentially
care for 1 another.
I I think that's important. Right? Like, I
I think right the... You've talked a lot
about building community. You've you've talked a lot
about, you know,
empowering folks. And and I and I think
having
a richer idea of wellness
beyond just sort of basic physical health.
Is really important for thinking about food systems.
Yeah. Well, and it's... When I was thinking
about with, you know, when I was talking
about letting the...
Like, the messi day of the kitchen? Mh.
Part of where I landed with that was,
can that invert our sense, like, our entitled
sense that food exists, to serve us. To
thinking about how do we serve food? U.
Like,
you know, especially working
it's been a very exciting moment where I've
really appreciated both
growing up in New England and also living
here in Minnesota. Mh. The
capacity
to work in use settle
indigenous
coexistence existence. Mh. Relationship building projects, like like,
huge domain for repair. Like, has not gone
well in the past.
Except where it has. And, like, there have
been, you know, there's this wonderful,
book that I've been recommending to people, although
it's written incredibly geographic language, but called
indigenous coexistence in place. And Mh. It's about
you know, finding these relationships and becoming Kin
is book reading now and tons of people
have now read breeding sweet grass. So there's
this
attention to this, and this idea of, you
know, in the same way that I really
focus on repair,
can we focus on what we have to
offer before we think about what we can
take.
And I as I I see that resonating
tremendously,
With young people, and, you know, the mutual
aid that has been a huge part of
of covid recovery and
recovery from
the George floyd inspired uprisings. I mean, really,
that question of how much people were helping
you to there and how little that was
making it onto the news. Mh. That has
such a a persistent
attention point for students. Mh. And they get
this. Like they are so focused on basic
needs provision within schools and a way to
make that part of a curriculum and, you
know, as more and more people struggle. Like,
like, 1 of the big questions I then
have this is, like,
the academic side, Always wanting to bring another
layer of complexity into it being like. Do
people have a capacity that for this, like,
can we connects our food mutual aid with
this ongoing set of student protests that have
happened in Africa across Africa around
neo def funding of food infrastructure in schools
because
They've been doing this for a really long
time, and it's in this ongoing
fight and arguably they have retained more
infrastructure in many places like university students still
have subsidized lunch, which we do not. And
and how amazing if we could bring that
into the farm bill. Mh. Like, we have
K through 12 food programs,
people don't suddenly become food secure because they
turn 18. Like, you know, but... I think
this idea of
being involved in those projects and feeling...
I feel like it's a new generation that
is able to offer something,
They also feel the need for us. So
Yeah. It's not
it's not just packing Google for people who
are in
situational poverty because of, a, disaster. We're sending
them, you know, corn soybean packs, which was
very much the experience of offering
that students had maybe 10 years ago,
They've been on mission trips or they
they had done these charity based things. And
I think this
generational shift to neutral aid has been...
Huge. Yeah. And I feel like we can
amplify that and and this kind of also
brings up this role of like, why are
we academics look part of what we're able
to bring to these community movements
is
is an invitation into the history and, you,
like, the highlander school. And other places where
this has been happening and where it continues
and, you know, here's how to connect to
their lessons and maybe maybe metrics they have
used that could counter about the less productive
metrics. Mh.
Well, and I mean,
going back a little bit, Right, They're talking
about the the need and how much...
Younger folks have sort of embraced mutual aid.
I I mean, I find that completely surprising.
Right? Like, thinking back totally to well, to
to wellness. Right? Like,
I think a key element of wellness is
feeling purpose. Right? Feeling that you're contributing, feeling
like you're giving.
And I not and I think right? Like,
I mean, we've talked about Neil the B.
I mean, I think for a very long
time,
we had an ethic of,
taking of greed Right? Like, we purpose
was defined in terms of, like, profit. And
that's a really empty sort of sense of
purpose. And I think younger folks
recognize that. And they... So they they... I
mean, I I think... Great. This is why
Mutual aid probably is resident because it includes
elements of relationship building and it includes elements
of purpose. That includes elements of, like,
empowerment through
being
a contributor to, like, the the common welfare
and the common good. Totally. And and the
more you are able to participate in that...
Contribution, the more you're able to see the
common. Mh. And and to experience that common,
not just as an aspiration, but it's something
that's already existing and thriving.
And that's a place to anchor relationship. Mh.
Yeah totally.
We've reached another natural break in the conversation
that I had with Valentine Do. So this
is a good spot to end this episode.
To summarize in this episode, Valentine and I
started by talking about how we each conceptualize
food justice, and this led is to talk
about critical media literacy, and the use of
art as a mode of collective expression. And
relationship building and how that supports community based
food movements.
In the next episode of justice sustainability,
we'll the conclusion of the conversation that I
had with Valentine,
Thank you for listening to just sustainability.
If you enjoyed what you heard. Please support
this podcast by subscribing and leaving a review.
Just sustainability is recorded with the support of
the Institute environment at the University of Minnesota.
In particular, I wanna thank Peter Levin and
Beth Mercer Taylor for all their help with
this show. All the Music justice sustainability is
composed and recorded by Clifton Ess,
And all our work was created by Kristen
Ness. Thank you again for listening.