1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:02,040 Hi. I'm Cl. 2 00:00:02,439 --> 00:00:04,860 Welcome to season 4 of just sustainability. 3 00:00:18,178 --> 00:00:20,489 The next segment of the conversation between Valentine 4 00:00:20,569 --> 00:00:22,162 Cad do and I was sparked by me 5 00:00:22,162 --> 00:00:24,393 asking her about how she conceptualize food justice. 6 00:00:25,523 --> 00:00:27,431 Our conversation about how Food just should be 7 00:00:27,431 --> 00:00:30,238 defined. Let us see chatting about critical media 8 00:00:30,374 --> 00:00:32,441 literacy and how we collectively self motivate for 9 00:00:32,441 --> 00:00:33,078 positive change. 10 00:00:33,888 --> 00:00:35,659 But before we get to listen to that 11 00:00:35,716 --> 00:00:37,623 conversation, I want to quickly define a concept 12 00:00:37,623 --> 00:00:39,372 that Valentine and I refer to several times. 13 00:00:40,167 --> 00:00:42,472 Specifically, the idea of pre politics. 14 00:00:43,204 --> 00:00:44,401 For those of you who aren't familiar with 15 00:00:44,401 --> 00:00:47,115 that term of art, pre politics, our approaches 16 00:00:47,115 --> 00:00:50,148 to community or social organizing and relationship building 17 00:00:50,148 --> 00:00:52,715 that are intentionally structured to model the social 18 00:00:52,715 --> 00:00:55,496 political aspirations of the folks doing that organizing 19 00:00:55,496 --> 00:00:56,450 or relationship building. 20 00:00:57,166 --> 00:00:58,755 For example, if want to leave that community 21 00:00:58,755 --> 00:01:00,901 governance should be based on authentic human relationships, 22 00:01:01,394 --> 00:01:03,232 The has strive to integrate getting to know 23 00:01:03,232 --> 00:01:05,710 1 another and developing robust understanding of 1 24 00:01:05,710 --> 00:01:07,068 another into public discussions. 25 00:01:07,867 --> 00:01:10,105 With that noted, back to our main conversation. 26 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:17,159 You mentioned you're interested in Food justice. And 27 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:20,372 I actually became first familiar with you by 28 00:01:20,372 --> 00:01:22,288 reading some articles of yours 29 00:01:22,767 --> 00:01:24,225 about food justice and 30 00:01:24,923 --> 00:01:26,998 really appreciating the fact that you think about 31 00:01:26,998 --> 00:01:27,876 food... Well, 32 00:01:29,090 --> 00:01:31,489 I don't... Yeah. I I don't know. I 33 00:01:31,569 --> 00:01:32,609 I was gonna say think about it in 34 00:01:32,609 --> 00:01:34,930 a really unique way, but III 35 00:01:34,930 --> 00:01:35,890 think more people are trying to think about, 36 00:01:35,969 --> 00:01:37,090 but I think you're you're 1 of the 37 00:01:37,090 --> 00:01:39,814 people who... First started talking about, like, in 38 00:01:39,814 --> 00:01:42,124 the academic literature, but food justice in a 39 00:01:42,124 --> 00:01:43,716 way that I really like that I hadn't 40 00:01:43,716 --> 00:01:46,207 seen prior to reading your articles, which is 41 00:01:46,599 --> 00:01:47,976 I I think a lot of folks 42 00:01:48,353 --> 00:01:51,325 prior to your work talked about food justice 43 00:01:51,383 --> 00:01:53,297 as a noun. Right? As an outcome as 44 00:01:53,297 --> 00:01:56,182 like a specific state of affairs. That we 45 00:01:56,182 --> 00:01:58,404 were trying to achieve. But you talk about 46 00:01:58,483 --> 00:02:00,388 Food justice more like a verb. Right? For 47 00:02:00,388 --> 00:02:02,452 you, it seemed to me that Food justice 48 00:02:02,452 --> 00:02:03,269 is a process 49 00:02:03,578 --> 00:02:05,885 and you don't achieve food justice. You do 50 00:02:05,885 --> 00:02:08,351 food justice. And so III don't wanna ask 51 00:02:08,351 --> 00:02:11,391 you about, like, like, how do you think 52 00:02:11,391 --> 00:02:13,705 about food justice. If you were to dis 53 00:02:13,705 --> 00:02:15,539 instill your kind of thoughts about what food 54 00:02:15,539 --> 00:02:16,597 justice is 55 00:02:16,975 --> 00:02:19,048 in, you know, like, a couple minutes, what 56 00:02:19,048 --> 00:02:20,006 would you say to somebody? 57 00:02:21,214 --> 00:02:23,701 Well, and I feel like to begin with 58 00:02:23,837 --> 00:02:24,552 a couple minutes, 59 00:02:25,109 --> 00:02:26,324 there's just so many 60 00:02:26,698 --> 00:02:29,021 folks to whom I debts of gratitude attitude. 61 00:02:29,180 --> 00:02:30,615 So I just have to say, I'm really... 62 00:02:30,854 --> 00:02:33,246 Mh. As a bodies of communities. 63 00:02:33,644 --> 00:02:35,796 There are 3 big communities that I feel 64 00:02:35,796 --> 00:02:39,002 like, oh have been so important. And here 65 00:02:39,002 --> 00:02:42,055 in Minnesota, the Mh. N and Man neumann 66 00:02:42,193 --> 00:02:44,994 S symposium that really came out of graduate 67 00:02:44,994 --> 00:02:48,170 student organizing in solidarity. Mh. With the indigenous 68 00:02:48,170 --> 00:02:50,711 communities that had sued the University Minnesota over 69 00:02:50,711 --> 00:02:52,617 wild rice genomic sequencing. Mh. 70 00:02:53,188 --> 00:02:56,536 And folks like Kyle Palace White and, you 71 00:02:56,536 --> 00:02:57,833 know, people really thinking 72 00:02:58,289 --> 00:02:59,347 about operational 73 00:03:00,123 --> 00:03:00,521 ethics, 74 00:03:01,253 --> 00:03:02,469 then then that 75 00:03:02,845 --> 00:03:05,870 overlapping here in Minnesota with a 2012, 76 00:03:06,108 --> 00:03:09,394 Mh. Lad donna Center's Redmond and Sam Brandt 77 00:03:09,531 --> 00:03:10,668 and a whole amazing 78 00:03:11,219 --> 00:03:12,278 consortium of folks 79 00:03:12,657 --> 00:03:14,037 put on a food justice 80 00:03:14,975 --> 00:03:16,573 2 or 3 day, you know, where are 81 00:03:16,573 --> 00:03:18,331 we? It was right after the Kellogg food 82 00:03:18,331 --> 00:03:21,854 and society program had collapse and a lot 83 00:03:21,854 --> 00:03:23,842 of the entities that have since folded were 84 00:03:23,842 --> 00:03:26,706 really struggling. Mh. And Food first was there, 85 00:03:27,199 --> 00:03:29,532 kind of having bumped gone through some 86 00:03:29,909 --> 00:03:32,460 transformations, and that community is really where this 87 00:03:32,460 --> 00:03:35,113 work came out of, but but also 88 00:03:35,904 --> 00:03:36,723 I think really 89 00:03:37,101 --> 00:03:40,156 deepened by a long term engagement with the 90 00:03:40,215 --> 00:03:42,370 agriculture food and human values society, which has 91 00:03:42,370 --> 00:03:44,685 an academic home. I think really is... I 92 00:03:44,685 --> 00:03:46,929 think it it models what I was saying 93 00:03:46,929 --> 00:03:48,997 earlier about having a place where proof figured 94 00:03:48,997 --> 00:03:52,497 of politics can practice. Okay. It's... As I 95 00:03:52,497 --> 00:03:52,815 understand, 96 00:03:54,024 --> 00:03:55,561 food agriculture oriented 97 00:03:56,097 --> 00:03:56,597 academic 98 00:03:57,055 --> 00:03:59,549 professional organization, both academics I think and activists 99 00:03:59,926 --> 00:04:02,558 that was created by philosophers and really ethics 100 00:04:02,558 --> 00:04:03,515 and action folks. 101 00:04:04,403 --> 00:04:04,903 And 102 00:04:06,227 --> 00:04:07,361 participating in all these 103 00:04:07,892 --> 00:04:10,825 conversations, it became really clear that... Mh. 1 104 00:04:10,825 --> 00:04:12,913 of the This is a lot like climate 105 00:04:12,913 --> 00:04:15,630 change, Ethics, by the time you're are able 106 00:04:15,630 --> 00:04:16,370 to measure 107 00:04:17,148 --> 00:04:19,226 outcomes in Mh as you say now in 108 00:04:19,226 --> 00:04:20,025 oriented ways, 109 00:04:20,758 --> 00:04:22,432 it was too late. You know, like, if 110 00:04:22,432 --> 00:04:25,163 you if you've tried to say, for justices 111 00:04:25,301 --> 00:04:27,474 about people's, Mh. Bio, 112 00:04:28,503 --> 00:04:30,198 thriving, which is 113 00:04:30,653 --> 00:04:32,905 excessively focused on, I think in 114 00:04:33,361 --> 00:04:35,113 especially in the funding apparatus that comes out 115 00:04:35,113 --> 00:04:36,546 of community nutrition studies, 116 00:04:37,358 --> 00:04:38,635 You end up... You know, like, by the 117 00:04:38,635 --> 00:04:41,529 time somebody has experienced stunt. Mh. Their 118 00:04:42,226 --> 00:04:44,952 their whole life course and that of of 119 00:04:44,952 --> 00:04:47,332 many generations after them, that's already so affected. 120 00:04:47,570 --> 00:04:49,871 Mh. And and write back at you. I 121 00:04:49,871 --> 00:04:51,164 feel like your workarounds around 122 00:04:51,616 --> 00:04:53,776 consent, I think, you know, when we each 123 00:04:53,776 --> 00:04:55,370 were starting to work on. We didn't know 124 00:04:55,370 --> 00:04:57,861 each other's work. But I... Mh. I 125 00:04:58,317 --> 00:05:00,707 I've been excited to know you and to 126 00:05:00,707 --> 00:05:03,750 have these conversations because I think consent is 127 00:05:03,750 --> 00:05:06,244 again, I've become more and more focused on 128 00:05:06,781 --> 00:05:09,652 consent based governance, and I've been very interested 129 00:05:09,652 --> 00:05:11,566 in quaker and other... 130 00:05:12,217 --> 00:05:13,511 Lateral processes 131 00:05:14,202 --> 00:05:14,940 for making 132 00:05:15,472 --> 00:05:16,265 decisions together. 133 00:05:17,377 --> 00:05:19,282 Because so many of the issues we have 134 00:05:19,282 --> 00:05:20,393 that are food injustice, 135 00:05:21,043 --> 00:05:23,533 would be addressed. Mh. If we had more 136 00:05:23,749 --> 00:05:26,376 consent. And I think I think fundamentally for 137 00:05:26,376 --> 00:05:28,126 me the heart of it is our food 138 00:05:28,126 --> 00:05:30,218 system is so predicated on a racial 139 00:05:30,608 --> 00:05:31,506 colonial hierarchy. 140 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,746 Of whose whose labor is visible and counts 141 00:05:34,746 --> 00:05:36,122 and who's can be invisible 142 00:05:37,134 --> 00:05:37,793 at that 143 00:05:38,103 --> 00:05:39,774 that feels like the heart of what needs 144 00:05:39,774 --> 00:05:42,660 to be made visible and a process oriented 145 00:05:42,717 --> 00:05:44,308 way. Because it allows... 146 00:05:45,199 --> 00:05:46,557 I mean, and this is what then drives 147 00:05:46,557 --> 00:05:47,537 me toward the 148 00:05:47,995 --> 00:05:51,431 mediation and chaplain seeds. There's an emotional toolkit 149 00:05:51,431 --> 00:05:53,278 people need. Because you have to keep eating. 150 00:05:53,436 --> 00:05:54,970 Like 1 of the things that's so 151 00:05:55,503 --> 00:05:57,411 compelling about food is a venue for work 152 00:05:57,411 --> 00:06:00,510 is it Mh. Can't opt out, like like 153 00:06:00,510 --> 00:06:01,249 you can 154 00:06:01,639 --> 00:06:04,596 can conceptually opt out, Mh. But it's increasingly 155 00:06:04,596 --> 00:06:07,392 difficult to ignore the food movement entirely. 156 00:06:08,031 --> 00:06:10,837 But as we see, it's really easy to 157 00:06:10,837 --> 00:06:14,816 not necessarily feature that idea that That we 158 00:06:14,816 --> 00:06:17,458 have this hierarchy of labor. And I think 159 00:06:17,538 --> 00:06:20,169 Covid made it much more visible? Yeah. Who 160 00:06:20,169 --> 00:06:22,561 who is suddenly not? Like, like, where is 161 00:06:22,561 --> 00:06:24,953 the system breaking down because of places that 162 00:06:24,953 --> 00:06:27,440 are overs stressed? But... It it breaks my 163 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:29,673 heart how much... I mean, I debate this 164 00:06:29,673 --> 00:06:31,210 with my father. And 165 00:06:31,588 --> 00:06:34,379 interesting all of elder men and my life 166 00:06:34,379 --> 00:06:36,389 are the ones who do grocery shopping. And 167 00:06:36,389 --> 00:06:38,866 there's so much discussion about how much eggs 168 00:06:38,866 --> 00:06:39,665 cost right now. 169 00:06:40,385 --> 00:06:43,022 Like, well, let's talk about what egg should 170 00:06:43,022 --> 00:06:46,390 cost? Like, you know, as they recalibrate from 171 00:06:46,390 --> 00:06:48,544 new supply chain issues. Where do we not 172 00:06:48,544 --> 00:06:50,538 see volatility and it's that in places that 173 00:06:50,538 --> 00:06:53,670 already internalized to those costs and have accountable 174 00:06:54,047 --> 00:06:54,547 relationships 175 00:06:55,178 --> 00:06:56,848 can we have a little bit more bandwidth? 176 00:06:57,007 --> 00:06:58,860 Like, where is the third and fifth grade 177 00:06:59,076 --> 00:07:01,723 conversation about the cost of eggs? Mh. And 178 00:07:02,355 --> 00:07:04,915 values should be accounting for. Yeah. This interesting. 179 00:07:05,154 --> 00:07:06,675 So, like, the right things are saying makes 180 00:07:06,675 --> 00:07:08,535 me talk to your previous 181 00:07:09,395 --> 00:07:11,810 conversation about, like, Right? Landscape is pornography. Because, 182 00:07:11,889 --> 00:07:13,810 again, right? Like, there's this... I think, 183 00:07:15,009 --> 00:07:16,850 strike is a... Yeah. It is totally like 184 00:07:16,850 --> 00:07:19,170 pornography. Yeah. But this is right. Like, bad 185 00:07:19,170 --> 00:07:22,225 central of food really? And then the the 186 00:07:22,225 --> 00:07:24,084 same sort of really strong 187 00:07:25,345 --> 00:07:27,904 emotional reactions on folks are are challenged to 188 00:07:27,904 --> 00:07:29,044 to think about 189 00:07:29,759 --> 00:07:31,599 what food really is and what's involved with 190 00:07:31,599 --> 00:07:34,639 food. Right? They did actually appreciate the full 191 00:07:34,639 --> 00:07:35,139 complexity 192 00:07:35,519 --> 00:07:37,759 and sort of richness of food systems, and 193 00:07:37,759 --> 00:07:40,574 and that makes people uncomfortable because I think 194 00:07:40,574 --> 00:07:40,735 we... 195 00:07:42,254 --> 00:07:44,835 Right. We're conditioned to think of a food 196 00:07:44,975 --> 00:07:46,740 in... I guess, in the United States at 197 00:07:46,740 --> 00:07:48,883 least. And, I think many other places. 198 00:07:49,597 --> 00:07:51,502 As you sort of... It's something we take 199 00:07:51,502 --> 00:07:53,645 for granted. Rate. Something's just there. Like, despite 200 00:07:53,645 --> 00:07:54,280 the fact that is, 201 00:07:54,852 --> 00:07:56,362 Completely essential for us to survive. 202 00:07:57,078 --> 00:07:59,303 We want to pay very little for it, 203 00:07:59,542 --> 00:08:02,268 and we don't really think about the processes 204 00:08:02,324 --> 00:08:03,699 that lead to it. We 205 00:08:04,169 --> 00:08:05,386 like our food to 206 00:08:05,923 --> 00:08:06,162 look... 207 00:08:07,518 --> 00:08:08,874 I I mean I have another word. Right? 208 00:08:09,033 --> 00:08:11,745 Like, look fake. Right? Like, we we don't 209 00:08:11,745 --> 00:08:13,394 like food that looks like 210 00:08:13,993 --> 00:08:15,907 food. We like food that looks like the 211 00:08:15,907 --> 00:08:17,183 plato on ideal of food. 212 00:08:18,539 --> 00:08:20,134 Yeah. I... Yeah. I've been thinking about this 213 00:08:20,134 --> 00:08:22,208 a lot because I've been playing... I just 214 00:08:22,208 --> 00:08:25,329 written essay say. For a Holly potty barn. 215 00:08:25,488 --> 00:08:27,477 Mh. With him on teaching the semester, and 216 00:08:27,477 --> 00:08:29,864 she's writing a collection on multi species relationships. 217 00:08:30,102 --> 00:08:30,262 Okay. 218 00:08:30,915 --> 00:08:32,274 In which is not a way that I 219 00:08:32,274 --> 00:08:34,035 have often conceptualize my work, but she said, 220 00:08:34,115 --> 00:08:35,554 hey do you? You don't have something you 221 00:08:35,554 --> 00:08:37,394 want I'm saying this, and I I was 222 00:08:37,394 --> 00:08:39,480 thinking about And then I'm sitting here as 223 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:41,227 we talk next to the shelf in my 224 00:08:41,227 --> 00:08:41,623 dining 225 00:08:42,100 --> 00:08:44,085 To 1 of these kind of classic Minnesota 226 00:08:44,085 --> 00:08:47,139 built ins, and it's got I don't know 227 00:08:47,274 --> 00:08:49,496 hundred yards of different things. There are in 228 00:08:49,496 --> 00:08:52,273 various stages of fermentation. Mh. And I was 229 00:08:52,273 --> 00:08:54,470 sitting here writing the other day thinking about 230 00:08:54,826 --> 00:08:57,126 when do you let down the guard of 231 00:08:57,126 --> 00:08:59,981 the modern h hydraulic kitchen. Yeah. Which you're 232 00:08:59,981 --> 00:09:00,774 in Minneapolis, 233 00:09:01,329 --> 00:09:03,410 home of general mills, like, that idea is 234 00:09:03,410 --> 00:09:05,481 still alive and well. Mh. It's idea that 235 00:09:05,481 --> 00:09:08,190 like fridge should be processed because it's safe. 236 00:09:08,429 --> 00:09:10,500 Yeah. And there all these narratives that have 237 00:09:10,500 --> 00:09:14,107 been used to... It's to secure a practical 238 00:09:14,107 --> 00:09:16,584 he longevity for food processors. So, like, Saint 239 00:09:16,664 --> 00:09:17,383 John's Bakery, 240 00:09:17,943 --> 00:09:19,381 apparently, there was a bill passed on the 241 00:09:19,381 --> 00:09:21,712 fifties. To the monks up at Saint. John's 242 00:09:21,712 --> 00:09:22,988 used to produce a lot of bread in 243 00:09:23,227 --> 00:09:25,721 Minnesota. Mh And general Mills got a 244 00:09:26,657 --> 00:09:28,491 bill through the legislature that you could only 245 00:09:28,491 --> 00:09:30,746 be a bread retailer if you sold across 246 00:09:31,217 --> 00:09:34,000 interstate lines? And I I been wanting to 247 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:35,432 follow this up? I would love to know. 248 00:09:35,750 --> 00:09:37,658 What's the conversation at that time? Yeah. Why 249 00:09:37,658 --> 00:09:38,954 does that seem safer 250 00:09:39,503 --> 00:09:41,754 and why... You know, and I... It's totally 251 00:09:41,812 --> 00:09:43,483 consistent with everything that's in the food safety 252 00:09:43,483 --> 00:09:46,588 and modernization act. Mh. But all of that 253 00:09:46,588 --> 00:09:49,399 made me think, What is the emotional effort? 254 00:09:49,799 --> 00:09:51,959 Like, what what are the tools needed to 255 00:09:51,959 --> 00:09:54,779 trust something like a bread starter? Mh. Or 256 00:09:55,334 --> 00:09:56,793 something that's maybe 257 00:09:57,252 --> 00:09:59,968 requires a little bit less disgust sensitivity and 258 00:09:59,968 --> 00:10:01,187 a little more exploratory 259 00:10:01,566 --> 00:10:03,656 openness. Mh. And it it 260 00:10:04,373 --> 00:10:06,602 I just started reading the care manifesto yesterday. 261 00:10:07,239 --> 00:10:08,911 And part of what it points out is 262 00:10:08,911 --> 00:10:12,031 that at times in which everybody is scrambling 263 00:10:12,031 --> 00:10:13,963 for survival. Mh. The neo 264 00:10:14,338 --> 00:10:16,486 ethic has made everyone valuable to the degree 265 00:10:16,486 --> 00:10:19,288 that they're good worker. Mh. That that people 266 00:10:19,288 --> 00:10:21,286 are most prone to defensive fear. 267 00:10:22,005 --> 00:10:24,082 And so that that combination, I know these 268 00:10:24,082 --> 00:10:25,601 are like, a bunch of abstract ideas I'm 269 00:10:25,601 --> 00:10:27,527 throwing out there, but to pull them together, 270 00:10:28,004 --> 00:10:29,910 feel like if you want somebody to be 271 00:10:29,910 --> 00:10:33,191 less abstract afraid of something like an unknown 272 00:10:33,898 --> 00:10:35,807 jar of yeast that you're gonna say like, 273 00:10:35,887 --> 00:10:37,637 this will raise your bread for you. Mh. 274 00:10:37,876 --> 00:10:39,547 And there's this opening all of a sudden 275 00:10:39,547 --> 00:10:42,013 because commercial yeast supply chains have messed up. 276 00:10:42,172 --> 00:10:44,972 Mh. You're like, okay. So I'm gonna give 277 00:10:44,972 --> 00:10:46,484 this to you and you're gonna be concerned, 278 00:10:46,564 --> 00:10:47,996 like, oh, my gosh What if it poison 279 00:10:47,996 --> 00:10:50,008 me or what if it grows mold or 280 00:10:50,478 --> 00:10:52,151 I've heard that Bread starters are really fuss. 281 00:10:52,390 --> 00:10:54,540 Like, there's... Yeah. There's a way in which 282 00:10:54,699 --> 00:10:56,372 I think... And I think this this is 283 00:10:56,372 --> 00:10:57,566 part of what I thought was brilliant about 284 00:10:57,566 --> 00:10:58,841 your analogy pornography. 285 00:10:59,573 --> 00:11:00,152 I think 286 00:11:00,529 --> 00:11:02,919 what we have learned soc physiological is that 287 00:11:02,919 --> 00:11:05,549 pornography makes people self conscious because they're not 288 00:11:05,629 --> 00:11:09,241 Crow. Mh. Like, their their idea of what 289 00:11:09,692 --> 00:11:10,906 sexual identity is 290 00:11:11,357 --> 00:11:14,053 is so fetish photoshopped and... But but also 291 00:11:14,053 --> 00:11:14,424 like 292 00:11:15,100 --> 00:11:17,325 expertise has been captured, and they can never 293 00:11:17,325 --> 00:11:19,391 aspire to view that expert. I think that's 294 00:11:19,391 --> 00:11:21,060 totally happened around. Food, 295 00:11:22,029 --> 00:11:23,705 And at the same... Like, it's this weird 296 00:11:23,705 --> 00:11:24,524 thing in which 297 00:11:25,381 --> 00:11:26,898 advertising is on the sleigh of hand. That's 298 00:11:26,898 --> 00:11:29,452 like, here is all this perfect food. You 299 00:11:29,452 --> 00:11:30,090 could never make. 300 00:11:30,663 --> 00:11:32,809 And also, we're not gonna let you see 301 00:11:32,809 --> 00:11:33,921 behind the Like, you don't wanna stay on 302 00:11:33,921 --> 00:11:35,510 the sauce just. It's like, yeah. 303 00:11:36,146 --> 00:11:38,230 No. No. No. So this. Right? Like, The 304 00:11:38,230 --> 00:11:40,309 food network has become this huge thing, the 305 00:11:40,309 --> 00:11:41,909 last, like, 10:15 years. And, like, we have, 306 00:11:41,990 --> 00:11:44,389 like, right. We features the... It features these 307 00:11:44,389 --> 00:11:45,909 chefs. I'm, like, we have, like, it's... Maybe 308 00:11:45,909 --> 00:11:47,684 you'll feel like they're foodie. But I think 309 00:11:47,684 --> 00:11:49,601 most people have no idea what a commercial 310 00:11:49,601 --> 00:11:50,800 kitchen is like. Right, if you if you 311 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:52,637 ever worked in a commercial kitchen, You you're 312 00:11:52,637 --> 00:11:53,117 probably just like, 313 00:11:54,155 --> 00:11:54,555 right? Like, 314 00:11:55,289 --> 00:11:57,364 Yeah. You you would you would not fetish 315 00:11:57,364 --> 00:11:58,002 size, like, 316 00:11:59,199 --> 00:12:01,673 right chefs because, like, you know, having worked 317 00:12:01,673 --> 00:12:04,260 in commercial kitchens. There's a lot of it's 318 00:12:04,315 --> 00:12:05,528 kinda dirty. It's 319 00:12:05,899 --> 00:12:07,246 a lot of things get microwave. 320 00:12:07,643 --> 00:12:08,990 Everyone's just sort of like, kinda doing things 321 00:12:08,990 --> 00:12:09,861 to the quickest way. 322 00:12:10,748 --> 00:12:12,732 And where is our reality Tv about the 323 00:12:12,732 --> 00:12:16,065 heroic dishwasher. Yeah. And but, yeah. Like, the 324 00:12:16,065 --> 00:12:16,303 folks, 325 00:12:17,017 --> 00:12:19,652 the distributors? I mean, there's. Yeah. Such... Cool 326 00:12:19,652 --> 00:12:22,118 work going out in the profit through distribution 327 00:12:22,118 --> 00:12:22,436 world. 328 00:12:23,072 --> 00:12:25,538 And and I think those are these networks 329 00:12:25,538 --> 00:12:28,421 of care, that people would genuinely be really 330 00:12:28,421 --> 00:12:31,470 interested in. Mh. And they're already in 331 00:12:31,926 --> 00:12:33,774 against it because they think they know. Of 332 00:12:33,774 --> 00:12:35,768 the food network. Yeah. Or they think... Oh, 333 00:12:35,847 --> 00:12:37,682 my god, this, like, nonprofit is gonna make 334 00:12:37,682 --> 00:12:38,958 feel guilty or... Yeah. 335 00:12:39,995 --> 00:12:41,749 You know, it's, again, it's like the challenges 336 00:12:41,749 --> 00:12:43,320 of talking to people about climate change. She's 337 00:12:43,439 --> 00:12:45,996 like... Yeah. I I have heard that story 338 00:12:45,996 --> 00:12:47,694 once and I didn't like it because 339 00:12:48,233 --> 00:12:49,591 here's is what I hold on to. Okay. 340 00:12:49,831 --> 00:12:51,203 I don't know if I'm right. It's But 341 00:12:51,362 --> 00:12:54,230 I feel like if people were more easily 342 00:12:54,230 --> 00:12:56,779 oriented to action, which we had... Like, this 343 00:12:56,779 --> 00:12:58,452 is what we know about climate changes that 344 00:12:58,452 --> 00:13:01,257 we focus on climate change scenarios, vast majority, 345 00:13:01,816 --> 00:13:04,688 especially like North American community is concerned about 346 00:13:04,688 --> 00:13:05,907 climate change, but doesn't 347 00:13:06,284 --> 00:13:08,694 know what they can do. Right. So I 348 00:13:08,694 --> 00:13:10,932 think about this with food and with climate? 349 00:13:11,811 --> 00:13:13,030 Can we more easily 350 00:13:13,409 --> 00:13:14,549 give people ways 351 00:13:15,008 --> 00:13:17,165 to participate and collect action that aren't just 352 00:13:17,165 --> 00:13:19,895 voting with your for? That are... That with 353 00:13:19,895 --> 00:13:21,491 which they could see meaningful change. 354 00:13:21,970 --> 00:13:23,886 And if we could lead with the repair, 355 00:13:24,125 --> 00:13:26,041 we can say see here's the repair and 356 00:13:26,041 --> 00:13:28,126 action you can be part of this. Yeah. 357 00:13:28,524 --> 00:13:31,013 I believe that that builds up people's capacity 358 00:13:31,468 --> 00:13:33,400 to have empathy or alt 359 00:13:34,347 --> 00:13:37,045 compassion in relation to problem. Yeah. But that 360 00:13:37,045 --> 00:13:38,394 if we start with the problem, 361 00:13:38,950 --> 00:13:39,450 people 362 00:13:39,823 --> 00:13:41,117 are already so 363 00:13:41,904 --> 00:13:43,902 jade and worn out by the neo regime 364 00:13:43,902 --> 00:13:46,778 that they can't... They can't like, Yeah. Hold 365 00:13:46,778 --> 00:13:48,376 space in their brain to get to the 366 00:13:48,376 --> 00:13:50,545 repair. Yes. I really... I we're really focused 367 00:13:50,545 --> 00:13:52,532 on this idea of repair technologies. And how 368 00:13:52,532 --> 00:13:53,191 can we 369 00:13:53,804 --> 00:13:54,701 expand these 370 00:13:55,235 --> 00:13:55,735 ecology 371 00:13:56,268 --> 00:13:57,938 some more people can get into them and 372 00:13:57,938 --> 00:14:01,304 start the repair loans. Yeah. No. So... Yeah. 373 00:14:01,625 --> 00:14:03,225 I I appreciate that you say that, because 374 00:14:03,225 --> 00:14:03,384 right. 375 00:14:04,504 --> 00:14:06,045 1 thing I have noticed is 376 00:14:06,424 --> 00:14:06,745 there's... 377 00:14:07,319 --> 00:14:10,036 Been in right a great increase in despair, 378 00:14:10,515 --> 00:14:12,752 which I think is because we are, people 379 00:14:12,752 --> 00:14:14,430 do understand the problem. Right? Like, I think 380 00:14:14,430 --> 00:14:14,750 it's like, 381 00:14:15,403 --> 00:14:17,579 I think it's it's the where person that's, 382 00:14:17,877 --> 00:14:18,196 you know, 383 00:14:19,632 --> 00:14:21,728 under maybe 55 384 00:14:21,946 --> 00:14:22,186 who... 385 00:14:23,319 --> 00:14:25,236 Denies climate change. Like, I I think... Right. 386 00:14:25,396 --> 00:14:27,234 Like, maybe there was a generation that the 387 00:14:27,234 --> 00:14:28,992 the propaganda worked on, but like, it's not 388 00:14:28,992 --> 00:14:30,610 working anymore. Right, younger folks 389 00:14:31,004 --> 00:14:32,916 I think universally recognize recognized the climate change 390 00:14:32,916 --> 00:14:33,974 the thing. But 391 00:14:35,147 --> 00:14:36,820 they have no sense of what to. At 392 00:14:36,820 --> 00:14:37,936 least from, like, when I talked to my 393 00:14:37,936 --> 00:14:39,529 students. Right? Like, that's the the thing I 394 00:14:39,529 --> 00:14:40,700 hear most is that 395 00:14:41,217 --> 00:14:43,286 climate... So thinking about climate change just makes 396 00:14:43,286 --> 00:14:44,639 them sad because they they know it's a 397 00:14:44,639 --> 00:14:46,731 probably no it's gonna be terrible 398 00:14:47,425 --> 00:14:49,747 in their lifetimes but they have no like... 399 00:14:49,906 --> 00:14:52,451 Right? They feel powerless to stop it. And 400 00:14:52,451 --> 00:14:54,917 then yesterday, I was having to thought after 401 00:14:54,917 --> 00:14:56,759 watching... I can't remember what it was. I 402 00:14:56,759 --> 00:14:58,506 saw something and someone talked about voting with 403 00:14:58,506 --> 00:15:00,570 your dollars. And I just had, like, that's 404 00:15:00,570 --> 00:15:02,952 such a dis empowering idea to think right 405 00:15:02,952 --> 00:15:05,032 to dis steal people down to, like, The 406 00:15:05,032 --> 00:15:06,782 only sort of way to influence, 407 00:15:07,737 --> 00:15:09,566 the world is super purchasing, and this is 408 00:15:09,566 --> 00:15:12,032 particularly dis empowering for younger folks because as 409 00:15:12,032 --> 00:15:13,226 we see with the, like, you know, 410 00:15:14,119 --> 00:15:16,835 with, like, economic statistics, younger folks have much 411 00:15:16,835 --> 00:15:18,134 less buying power than 412 00:15:18,753 --> 00:15:20,111 previous generations of their age. 413 00:15:21,070 --> 00:15:23,233 And Yeah. So I think it's exactly right 414 00:15:23,233 --> 00:15:24,130 that we that 415 00:15:24,742 --> 00:15:26,807 an important thing to do is to think 416 00:15:26,807 --> 00:15:27,625 about how 417 00:15:28,237 --> 00:15:29,054 to shift 418 00:15:29,508 --> 00:15:30,858 conversations so that people... 419 00:15:31,667 --> 00:15:33,576 See how they can be powerful, how they 420 00:15:33,576 --> 00:15:36,199 can be effective. Right? To to recognize that 421 00:15:36,199 --> 00:15:38,346 the the power that they have that I 422 00:15:38,346 --> 00:15:40,595 think much of the ways 423 00:15:41,223 --> 00:15:44,008 that our society has discourse suggests we don't 424 00:15:44,008 --> 00:15:44,564 have power. 425 00:15:45,121 --> 00:15:47,667 Yeah. Right. Right. Well, and it's interesting. 426 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,079 I mean, especially the vote with your dollar, 427 00:15:50,559 --> 00:15:52,419 we know that the biggest 428 00:15:53,199 --> 00:15:54,159 inertia Agents, 429 00:15:54,799 --> 00:15:56,480 in dealing with these problems are the ones 430 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,671 with the most dollars. Right. So then 431 00:15:59,046 --> 00:16:01,273 that's just a pet of despair. You know, 432 00:16:01,751 --> 00:16:02,546 you're like, okay, well, 433 00:16:03,580 --> 00:16:04,478 you know, like 434 00:16:05,819 --> 00:16:08,120 We can't within that. But I think... I 435 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:09,255 mean, I've been thinking it 436 00:16:10,104 --> 00:16:11,849 kind of be this like idea of moral 437 00:16:11,849 --> 00:16:12,984 ecology and 438 00:16:14,006 --> 00:16:15,935 you know, again, again, having 439 00:16:16,308 --> 00:16:18,768 been breathing deeply a lot and thinking about 440 00:16:18,768 --> 00:16:21,387 how to inhabit an institutional community that is 441 00:16:21,387 --> 00:16:22,998 really... Experiencing despair and is... 442 00:16:23,957 --> 00:16:25,155 I I think this comes back to the 443 00:16:25,155 --> 00:16:27,871 critical media literacy. Mh. Component a little bit. 444 00:16:29,310 --> 00:16:30,384 It's The simultaneous 445 00:16:30,845 --> 00:16:32,465 massive dependence on technology, 446 00:16:33,404 --> 00:16:36,225 especially the younger generation who's who's had their 447 00:16:36,285 --> 00:16:38,285 education mediated by technology. Mh. 448 00:16:38,936 --> 00:16:41,104 Combined with, like, there's relatively 449 00:16:41,796 --> 00:16:43,860 gets pretty easy to control technology at this 450 00:16:43,860 --> 00:16:45,925 point. Like like, on 1 hand, you know, 451 00:16:46,084 --> 00:16:48,093 yes, there's there's a ton of 452 00:16:48,403 --> 00:16:50,016 radical comm possibility, 453 00:16:50,391 --> 00:16:52,164 but people live in such a 454 00:16:52,539 --> 00:16:54,845 overwhelming sea of information. Mh. I think we've 455 00:16:54,845 --> 00:16:56,357 seen in university context, 456 00:16:56,928 --> 00:16:59,390 a pretty strategic limiting of how much people 457 00:16:59,390 --> 00:17:01,717 can reach each other. Mh. And 458 00:17:02,408 --> 00:17:03,385 and I think 459 00:17:03,838 --> 00:17:04,815 this is where 460 00:17:05,283 --> 00:17:07,037 I, especially as a, you know, I teach 461 00:17:07,037 --> 00:17:10,145 environmental studies and thinking about the value of 462 00:17:10,145 --> 00:17:10,645 environmental 463 00:17:11,021 --> 00:17:13,908 education and getting people out. Side and getting 464 00:17:13,908 --> 00:17:16,225 them away from technology a little bit. Mh. 465 00:17:16,545 --> 00:17:19,262 I've I've often been really critical of these 466 00:17:19,262 --> 00:17:20,960 perspectives because they tend 467 00:17:21,433 --> 00:17:22,570 toward a 468 00:17:23,026 --> 00:17:25,576 kind of a central view, technology is bad, 469 00:17:25,894 --> 00:17:26,851 enough nature is good. 470 00:17:27,408 --> 00:17:30,697 But with a critical lens on that 471 00:17:31,166 --> 00:17:33,630 part of what I've been appreciating as something 472 00:17:33,630 --> 00:17:36,649 that especially younger folks. And I mean, we're 473 00:17:36,649 --> 00:17:38,715 not exempt from this, but needs to practice 474 00:17:38,715 --> 00:17:39,215 is 475 00:17:39,843 --> 00:17:42,872 being aware of the intentional economy and the 476 00:17:42,872 --> 00:17:43,770 way that it's 477 00:17:44,147 --> 00:17:47,176 it's manipulating emotions. Okay. So for example, 478 00:17:47,749 --> 00:17:49,025 if you've grown up with a phone, this 479 00:17:49,025 --> 00:17:51,178 is something that students working in especially the 480 00:17:51,178 --> 00:17:53,251 classes where we're thinking about, like, the emotional 481 00:17:53,251 --> 00:17:55,085 skill sets we need to deal climate change. 482 00:17:55,324 --> 00:17:57,891 Mh. They've pointed out, but they have no 483 00:17:57,891 --> 00:17:58,551 re orient 484 00:17:59,328 --> 00:18:01,164 reflex when lost. Like they look at their 485 00:18:01,164 --> 00:18:04,197 phones. And the idea of being able to 486 00:18:04,197 --> 00:18:06,992 intentionally say How do I lessen my dependence 487 00:18:06,992 --> 00:18:08,918 on my phone, and particularly, 488 00:18:09,686 --> 00:18:10,875 like the neuro chemical, 489 00:18:11,667 --> 00:18:12,951 in imp, off, like, 490 00:18:13,746 --> 00:18:16,129 a reward. Like, I have uncertainty. I can 491 00:18:16,129 --> 00:18:18,592 ex that uncertainty pretty quickly by looking at 492 00:18:18,592 --> 00:18:20,738 my phone and finding answer to a question 493 00:18:20,738 --> 00:18:22,265 or find out where I am and how 494 00:18:22,265 --> 00:18:23,938 to get where I need to go. So 495 00:18:23,938 --> 00:18:24,996 to to build 496 00:18:25,372 --> 00:18:26,191 to build and 497 00:18:26,886 --> 00:18:30,730 to begin with, like, the reassurance, uncertainty and 498 00:18:30,730 --> 00:18:33,944 hope and the capacity to have some exploratory, 499 00:18:34,402 --> 00:18:37,356 Mh. Buffer some space to be willing to 500 00:18:37,356 --> 00:18:39,608 say I'm gonna put this thing down and 501 00:18:39,608 --> 00:18:41,147 and endorse some discomfort 502 00:18:41,766 --> 00:18:44,722 so that I'm able to be in... Mh. 503 00:18:44,962 --> 00:18:48,250 Like more uncomfortable conversations more often, So On 504 00:18:48,250 --> 00:18:50,718 d, 1 of the recent graduate who's been 505 00:18:50,718 --> 00:18:52,230 working with me in the center for Justice 506 00:18:52,230 --> 00:18:54,538 a law, which is my current administrative home 507 00:18:54,538 --> 00:18:55,096 at Ham. 508 00:18:55,747 --> 00:18:57,813 Recently brought to my attention this idea of, 509 00:18:59,164 --> 00:19:02,763 negative feedback d for. Okay. That it demonstrated 510 00:19:02,899 --> 00:19:05,945 that younger folks Mh get dis regulated more 511 00:19:05,945 --> 00:19:08,184 easily in the face of negative feedback because 512 00:19:08,184 --> 00:19:10,205 they've they've been able to have 513 00:19:10,664 --> 00:19:13,305 this little, like, pocket machine that gives positive 514 00:19:13,305 --> 00:19:14,698 feedback, like, I'm feeling 515 00:19:15,233 --> 00:19:16,666 disconnected. I look at Facebook or I look 516 00:19:16,666 --> 00:19:18,339 at Instagram Mri I, like, you know, find 517 00:19:18,339 --> 00:19:20,648 something to comfort myself, and Cindy able to 518 00:19:20,648 --> 00:19:22,241 kind of build up that capacity. 519 00:19:22,892 --> 00:19:25,695 And and I think this comes back to, 520 00:19:25,909 --> 00:19:27,918 you know, you are saying this this path 521 00:19:27,974 --> 00:19:30,038 earlier on our conversation between the media question. 522 00:19:30,277 --> 00:19:31,468 Yeah. And the food justice. 523 00:19:32,278 --> 00:19:34,111 I think a lot of the public are... 524 00:19:34,987 --> 00:19:38,493 Especially because I've remained uncomfortable with landscape pornography. 525 00:19:38,732 --> 00:19:39,392 And I 526 00:19:40,104 --> 00:19:41,782 I mean, personally, like, as part of my 527 00:19:41,782 --> 00:19:45,217 personal practice. Yeah. I love trees and minds. 528 00:19:45,457 --> 00:19:45,957 And, 529 00:19:46,336 --> 00:19:47,135 like, I've I've... 530 00:19:48,422 --> 00:19:49,556 Myself experienced 531 00:19:49,929 --> 00:19:52,491 during the dis regulation of Covid and 532 00:19:52,864 --> 00:19:55,323 war and. Know, everything going on, 533 00:19:55,893 --> 00:19:58,036 so be able to prioritize just sitting down 534 00:19:58,036 --> 00:20:00,496 to sketch for half hour. U. And being 535 00:20:00,496 --> 00:20:01,925 able to turn off a little bit that 536 00:20:01,925 --> 00:20:02,957 critical lens, it'd be, like, 537 00:20:03,690 --> 00:20:06,250 I counter balance in the rest of my 538 00:20:06,250 --> 00:20:09,309 life. I do so much work about transforming 539 00:20:10,089 --> 00:20:12,785 our relationships from property to 1 of. 540 00:20:13,621 --> 00:20:15,874 Relationship with land that I can now think 541 00:20:15,932 --> 00:20:16,570 think of this, 542 00:20:17,207 --> 00:20:18,801 you know, if I'm doing land based art. 543 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:22,008 Right now, it's devotion. It's not Mh. Feeding 544 00:20:22,008 --> 00:20:24,085 into that economy. So I can turn off 545 00:20:24,085 --> 00:20:26,003 my critical internal lens, and do that. 546 00:20:26,882 --> 00:20:29,214 But part of what that allows me to 547 00:20:29,214 --> 00:20:32,515 then have is that space of of inhabit 548 00:20:32,734 --> 00:20:35,454 Mh. Hope rather than despair and kind of 549 00:20:35,454 --> 00:20:37,548 build building up, whatever it is that creativity 550 00:20:37,548 --> 00:20:39,621 gives you that's different than what, you know, 551 00:20:39,781 --> 00:20:42,014 people selling you things through the attention economy 552 00:20:42,014 --> 00:20:45,204 give you. And I really appreciated this. So 553 00:20:45,204 --> 00:20:46,661 during our martin luther king 554 00:20:47,213 --> 00:20:48,970 celebrations at Ham in the middle of, you 555 00:20:48,970 --> 00:20:50,805 know, Mh. Pretty tumultuous to us times for 556 00:20:50,805 --> 00:20:53,200 the community. There was a great deal of 557 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,116 discourage. And like, you know, we have not 558 00:20:55,116 --> 00:20:56,886 lived up to doctor Chang. 559 00:20:57,445 --> 00:20:57,684 Mh. 560 00:20:58,561 --> 00:21:01,911 Operations for us and the spaces of with 561 00:21:01,911 --> 00:21:03,507 beloved community are absent, 562 00:21:04,144 --> 00:21:06,953 and I was there with Mel Gil 1 563 00:21:06,953 --> 00:21:07,613 of the 564 00:21:07,992 --> 00:21:10,469 amazing community leaders of urban agriculture and the 565 00:21:10,469 --> 00:21:12,707 twin cities who has receiving the community beloved 566 00:21:12,866 --> 00:21:14,485 Community award for him and 567 00:21:14,798 --> 00:21:16,889 and and we just reflected that 568 00:21:17,343 --> 00:21:19,991 folks who live in a discouraging space of 569 00:21:20,206 --> 00:21:22,354 institutions. We this is... Again, we need to 570 00:21:22,354 --> 00:21:22,672 expand, 571 00:21:23,324 --> 00:21:26,755 the ecosystem, the community agriculture movement in the 572 00:21:26,835 --> 00:21:29,468 Twin cities, I think is an amazing testament 573 00:21:29,468 --> 00:21:31,712 to the beloved community. And to the degree 574 00:21:31,712 --> 00:21:33,696 that people are able to inhabit that space 575 00:21:33,696 --> 00:21:35,917 and live in those relationships. Mh. They have 576 00:21:35,917 --> 00:21:38,004 this gift of of hope, and 577 00:21:38,632 --> 00:21:40,784 in academics we call pre figure ne politics. 578 00:21:40,943 --> 00:21:43,413 Of of living in a space of mutual 579 00:21:43,413 --> 00:21:46,281 neutrality and reciprocity and rebuilding relationship of land 580 00:21:46,281 --> 00:21:48,686 in each other. Mh. And of pairing these 581 00:21:48,686 --> 00:21:49,562 harms, and it was... 582 00:21:50,278 --> 00:21:52,189 It just... It made me think how much 583 00:21:52,189 --> 00:21:54,576 of the, like, yeah. The art projects that 584 00:21:54,736 --> 00:21:55,984 I've worked on are 585 00:21:56,423 --> 00:21:57,881 are attempts to really, 586 00:21:58,338 --> 00:22:01,370 like condense and crystallize to make that visible 587 00:22:01,370 --> 00:22:02,646 to people in a way that might not 588 00:22:02,646 --> 00:22:04,418 be visible know, you might have to be 589 00:22:04,418 --> 00:22:06,016 part of a community garden? Mh. For a 590 00:22:06,016 --> 00:22:07,853 couple seasons to get to see that. But 591 00:22:07,853 --> 00:22:10,170 can you can you create a spectacle? 592 00:22:10,822 --> 00:22:12,808 That is substantive and isn't just 593 00:22:13,762 --> 00:22:15,430 like, all the things we criticize about Yeah. 594 00:22:16,066 --> 00:22:19,188 Superficial of spectacle. But allow people to see 595 00:22:19,418 --> 00:22:21,322 that that world of of justice and hope 596 00:22:21,322 --> 00:22:23,964 and and beloved reciprocity is 597 00:22:24,337 --> 00:22:25,948 is real. It's not just 598 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:27,376 something that people 599 00:22:28,001 --> 00:22:31,254 hope is real. Yeah. Well... So and the 600 00:22:31,254 --> 00:22:32,681 natural question is right? Because I I think... 601 00:22:33,078 --> 00:22:35,061 Right. We're leading into the 1 wanting to 602 00:22:35,061 --> 00:22:36,988 ask you, but write some of the media 603 00:22:36,988 --> 00:22:39,385 literacy and thinking about use of media as 604 00:22:39,385 --> 00:22:42,181 a way to... Right in empower folks by 605 00:22:42,181 --> 00:22:44,054 by showing them possibilities. 606 00:22:44,429 --> 00:22:46,338 Right? Possibilities of... I like the idea of, 607 00:22:46,418 --> 00:22:48,805 like, right possibilities of the beloved community. Right? 608 00:22:48,964 --> 00:22:49,942 Possibilities of 609 00:22:50,397 --> 00:22:52,488 good relationships. Right? To get past 610 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:54,160 the sort of superficial, 611 00:22:55,039 --> 00:22:56,900 highly produced sort of pornography 612 00:22:57,279 --> 00:23:00,320 that 1 often finds in media. Right? Yeah, 613 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:01,854 So III 614 00:23:01,854 --> 00:23:03,053 guess, this is a long way for me 615 00:23:03,053 --> 00:23:05,130 to ask, like, so can you do that? 616 00:23:05,290 --> 00:23:06,648 And how do you do that?? So, like, 617 00:23:07,048 --> 00:23:08,167 I I think the answer is yes. Right? 618 00:23:08,326 --> 00:23:09,685 Because I think you've you've done... 619 00:23:10,257 --> 00:23:12,639 Recently, a lot of cool projects that are 620 00:23:12,639 --> 00:23:14,624 doing that. But yeah. So I I guess 621 00:23:14,783 --> 00:23:16,291 I'm just inviting you to tell us a 622 00:23:16,291 --> 00:23:18,038 little about what you've been doing and, like, 623 00:23:18,196 --> 00:23:18,935 and how 624 00:23:19,324 --> 00:23:22,269 you've been thinking about using art to. To 625 00:23:22,269 --> 00:23:24,419 reveal some of the those sort of the 626 00:23:24,419 --> 00:23:26,887 the harder to see sort of deeper richer, 627 00:23:27,855 --> 00:23:31,422 detail in both, like, relationships between communities, but 628 00:23:31,422 --> 00:23:33,642 just... End relationships with the land. Yeah. And 629 00:23:33,801 --> 00:23:34,380 I think, 630 00:23:35,482 --> 00:23:36,381 I think the 631 00:23:37,075 --> 00:23:38,906 the answer that's easy to say and hard 632 00:23:38,906 --> 00:23:40,817 to do. Yeah. Is that it's rooted at 633 00:23:40,817 --> 00:23:43,500 in community. Again, really, like, real relationship is 634 00:23:43,539 --> 00:23:45,788 to build a relationship. Yeah. And 635 00:23:46,162 --> 00:23:49,364 and that is hard. And I I am 636 00:23:49,739 --> 00:23:52,934 massively grateful to to some thought leaders. I 637 00:23:52,934 --> 00:23:55,161 think, again, here are the Twin cities, the 638 00:23:55,241 --> 00:23:58,740 Twin theaters, the theaters of color collective Tiktok, 639 00:23:58,979 --> 00:23:59,750 and the 640 00:24:00,903 --> 00:24:03,689 racial equity fund collaborative? Okay. Did this Year 641 00:24:03,689 --> 00:24:04,189 long 642 00:24:04,643 --> 00:24:05,462 c residency 643 00:24:05,996 --> 00:24:07,053 to think through 644 00:24:07,443 --> 00:24:08,818 like, how funding 645 00:24:09,351 --> 00:24:09,851 organizations 646 00:24:10,544 --> 00:24:11,600 reproducing harmful 647 00:24:12,054 --> 00:24:12,554 cultural 648 00:24:12,928 --> 00:24:15,130 expectations? And how could they how could they 649 00:24:15,488 --> 00:24:15,988 better 650 00:24:16,522 --> 00:24:17,022 support 651 00:24:17,398 --> 00:24:18,035 adjuster world. 652 00:24:18,592 --> 00:24:20,980 And I think it was valuable that they 653 00:24:20,980 --> 00:24:23,129 had done that prior to Covid and prior 654 00:24:23,129 --> 00:24:24,243 to the Murder George Floyd. 655 00:24:25,054 --> 00:24:25,554 Create 656 00:24:26,173 --> 00:24:27,851 real relationships. I mean, a piece of what 657 00:24:27,851 --> 00:24:29,929 was interesting to me hearing them talk about 658 00:24:29,929 --> 00:24:32,805 that was that it took took a year, 659 00:24:33,379 --> 00:24:35,930 of really regular meeting. Okay. For the folks 660 00:24:35,930 --> 00:24:38,401 who were in the positions of power to 661 00:24:38,401 --> 00:24:40,553 recognize what that power was and how it 662 00:24:40,553 --> 00:24:42,483 needed to change. And it was it was 663 00:24:42,483 --> 00:24:45,280 lovely. There was arts Us had 1 of 664 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:46,339 its annual gatherings 665 00:24:47,118 --> 00:24:48,956 here in the Twin cities. And they did 666 00:24:48,956 --> 00:24:51,289 a fish official style, q and a. And 667 00:24:51,289 --> 00:24:53,069 there was this great moment where somebody 668 00:24:53,450 --> 00:24:55,369 asked 1 of the fund a question, and 669 00:24:55,369 --> 00:24:56,970 they said, you know, I'm not the right 670 00:24:56,970 --> 00:24:58,409 person to answer that, and they're were like, 671 00:24:58,569 --> 00:25:00,344 I'm gonna tap myself out and I see 672 00:25:00,344 --> 00:25:02,342 in the audience, so and so who's really 673 00:25:02,342 --> 00:25:04,340 the better person to answer that and Ask 674 00:25:04,340 --> 00:25:06,098 them to come up on the stage. And 675 00:25:06,098 --> 00:25:08,256 that just to see that shift going out 676 00:25:08,256 --> 00:25:10,106 of people who have been the geek jeep. 677 00:25:10,582 --> 00:25:10,819 Mh. 678 00:25:11,692 --> 00:25:13,833 Sharing. You know, and, again, this is... I 679 00:25:13,833 --> 00:25:17,188 recognize recognized with these pre politics moments their 680 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,431 keepers we're aspirational. Yeah. Like, you know, that's 681 00:25:20,431 --> 00:25:23,287 1 such thing that's remarkable because it rarely 682 00:25:23,287 --> 00:25:25,429 happens. Right. But when it happens, then you're 683 00:25:25,429 --> 00:25:27,194 like, oh, what this happen more often Like, 684 00:25:27,273 --> 00:25:29,343 we can normalize this. Mh. So I think... 685 00:25:30,538 --> 00:25:33,881 And and for me with melvin gil, who 686 00:25:33,881 --> 00:25:35,645 is gonna 1 of the c coordinators of 687 00:25:35,645 --> 00:25:38,051 the urban farm Garden alliance. Have my this 688 00:25:38,584 --> 00:25:40,411 organization I've been really involved in the Twin 689 00:25:40,411 --> 00:25:42,556 cities community agricultural land trust, 690 00:25:43,209 --> 00:25:46,566 And other organizations like the economic development association 691 00:25:46,566 --> 00:25:48,484 in public Arts saint Paul Frey kemp Farm, 692 00:25:48,963 --> 00:25:50,482 we had this 5 year project called the 693 00:25:50,562 --> 00:25:52,480 Art Food at 5 town in Ron. Mh. 694 00:25:52,814 --> 00:25:55,200 Really thinking about... And and part of it 695 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:56,791 what was amazing is it was connected to 696 00:25:56,791 --> 00:25:59,893 25 other parallel projects around the country. The 697 00:25:59,893 --> 00:26:01,188 focus of which was 698 00:26:01,579 --> 00:26:04,716 dis invested urban food systems. Mh. And how 699 00:26:05,095 --> 00:26:07,113 how an art based 700 00:26:07,492 --> 00:26:08,930 of creative place making approach, 701 00:26:09,503 --> 00:26:10,559 could bring you something 702 00:26:10,932 --> 00:26:11,750 to the 703 00:26:12,202 --> 00:26:13,337 health funding 704 00:26:13,869 --> 00:26:16,093 that had previously dominated that space that was 705 00:26:16,093 --> 00:26:16,966 different. Mh. 706 00:26:17,522 --> 00:26:18,022 And 707 00:26:18,728 --> 00:26:19,387 I think 708 00:26:19,921 --> 00:26:21,830 as a, you know, and a lot of 709 00:26:21,830 --> 00:26:24,478 what we did was really lifting out existing 710 00:26:24,614 --> 00:26:25,092 community. 711 00:26:25,744 --> 00:26:28,697 Meaning making and culture. U. So much human 712 00:26:28,697 --> 00:26:31,650 culture is rock food. U. There's this at 713 00:26:31,650 --> 00:26:33,645 1 of those even values meetings when it 714 00:26:33,645 --> 00:26:33,805 was 715 00:26:35,015 --> 00:26:35,834 Indiana University 716 00:26:36,289 --> 00:26:39,098 in Bloom. They have an amazing material culture 717 00:26:39,155 --> 00:26:41,067 museum. Mh. And they ended asked them to 718 00:26:41,067 --> 00:26:43,548 to highlight some of their food and museum 719 00:26:43,548 --> 00:26:45,775 traders were, like, you food people I think 720 00:26:45,775 --> 00:26:46,649 food is exceptional. 721 00:26:48,319 --> 00:26:49,989 Spread... They had taken a finding guide and 722 00:26:49,989 --> 00:26:52,238 they were, like, x highlighted 90 percent of 723 00:26:52,238 --> 00:26:53,916 the things in the in the training guide. 724 00:26:54,076 --> 00:26:56,393 They were like, yeah. Everything humans make relates 725 00:26:56,393 --> 00:26:57,932 to food. It is everything. 726 00:26:58,311 --> 00:27:00,956 Let's, you know, you need to maybe ask 727 00:27:00,956 --> 00:27:02,626 your questions in a more focused way, but 728 00:27:02,626 --> 00:27:04,479 also it means you've got your finger on 729 00:27:04,615 --> 00:27:07,161 heart of meeting making. Mh. So I think 730 00:27:07,161 --> 00:27:07,638 with that, 731 00:27:08,688 --> 00:27:10,121 ethos of... I mean, 732 00:27:11,555 --> 00:27:13,307 had to get this into the conversation because 733 00:27:13,307 --> 00:27:15,139 it's so powerful and again so much what 734 00:27:15,139 --> 00:27:16,913 we need. Mh. The metric 735 00:27:17,383 --> 00:27:19,368 this, so the c foundation was a major 736 00:27:19,368 --> 00:27:21,853 fund of this art of food project and 737 00:27:22,386 --> 00:27:25,109 Da enterprises was an excellent 738 00:27:25,578 --> 00:27:28,290 facilitator of this and the main metric they 739 00:27:28,290 --> 00:27:30,444 ask people was as you do your work. 740 00:27:30,683 --> 00:27:31,002 Mh. 741 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,873 Instead of pounds of vegetables, which is what 742 00:27:33,873 --> 00:27:34,671 everybody wants to know. 743 00:27:35,404 --> 00:27:37,559 Mean, which means we grow watermelon, pumpkins which 744 00:27:37,559 --> 00:27:39,396 are actually really hard to share because they're 745 00:27:39,396 --> 00:27:42,350 heavy. Right. You know, there's there's is real 746 00:27:42,350 --> 00:27:44,425 problems with metrics and they can be be 747 00:27:44,425 --> 00:27:46,111 great. But like, they need to be better 748 00:27:46,111 --> 00:27:47,382 metrics? Theirs was, 749 00:27:48,097 --> 00:27:49,846 how you gotten people who haven't been involved 750 00:27:49,846 --> 00:27:52,968 in food decision making into positions of power 751 00:27:53,025 --> 00:27:55,267 decision making. That's And they didn't use that. 752 00:27:55,664 --> 00:27:57,335 Iso isn't that beautiful. Yes. I didn't tell 753 00:27:57,335 --> 00:27:59,801 you what the... Like, you as a community 754 00:27:59,801 --> 00:28:01,870 had to figure out what are those positions? 755 00:28:02,029 --> 00:28:04,112 Yeah. And in most... Says it was building 756 00:28:04,112 --> 00:28:06,658 new positions because there weren't really good positions. 757 00:28:07,294 --> 00:28:10,254 Were accessible to community members. Yeah. But with 758 00:28:10,254 --> 00:28:12,967 the emergence of food policy councils or even 759 00:28:12,967 --> 00:28:13,526 better yet, 760 00:28:14,164 --> 00:28:14,664 existing, 761 00:28:15,281 --> 00:28:17,755 you know, neighborhood based governance or whatever it 762 00:28:17,755 --> 00:28:19,360 is, able to say, yeah, who is a 763 00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:21,107 part of this and hear are people who 764 00:28:21,107 --> 00:28:23,093 already have a ton knowledge about this? Like 765 00:28:23,093 --> 00:28:25,476 the dishwasher who we aren't in the cave 766 00:28:25,476 --> 00:28:26,984 all the people doing catering out of their 767 00:28:26,984 --> 00:28:28,454 homes. To be And, 768 00:28:28,831 --> 00:28:30,188 yeah, How do we lift that up? Yeah. 769 00:28:30,427 --> 00:28:32,921 So some of these may be more spectacle 770 00:28:32,980 --> 00:28:33,480 based 771 00:28:33,857 --> 00:28:34,575 through advance? 772 00:28:35,068 --> 00:28:36,898 So here in the twin, I think your 773 00:28:36,898 --> 00:28:38,750 things we've done that have been 774 00:28:39,125 --> 00:28:40,000 more well known. 775 00:28:40,636 --> 00:28:42,942 Have done with Marina And a bunch of 776 00:28:42,942 --> 00:28:43,181 other. 777 00:28:43,753 --> 00:28:47,099 Collaborators, we did a big multi year project 778 00:28:47,099 --> 00:28:48,613 called making the best of it Dan I. 779 00:28:48,852 --> 00:28:51,104 It's about eating dan lines is way to 780 00:28:51,321 --> 00:28:52,596 cope with climate change? Yes. 781 00:28:54,202 --> 00:28:55,952 And and she had done a previous iteration 782 00:28:55,952 --> 00:28:57,145 of this in the Gulf of Mexico, that 783 00:28:57,145 --> 00:28:59,531 I was about eating jellyfish. Okay. And okay. 784 00:28:59,929 --> 00:29:02,171 What thrive and climate change? These are these 785 00:29:02,171 --> 00:29:04,001 signal species that are telling us something is 786 00:29:04,001 --> 00:29:05,991 changing. Yeah. How do we build the relationship 787 00:29:05,991 --> 00:29:08,697 with them? Yeah. And again, right, it comes 788 00:29:08,697 --> 00:29:10,368 down to relationship, Like, part of what made 789 00:29:10,368 --> 00:29:12,299 that project with... So well as we ask 790 00:29:12,299 --> 00:29:12,799 people 791 00:29:13,180 --> 00:29:13,920 to speak 792 00:29:14,299 --> 00:29:16,299 to enter the project from their relationship with 793 00:29:16,460 --> 00:29:19,019 Dan. Mh. And it turns out good or 794 00:29:19,019 --> 00:29:19,340 bad, 795 00:29:19,834 --> 00:29:21,908 a surprising number of people have had the 796 00:29:21,908 --> 00:29:24,859 some relationship with Dan lens. Yeah. And they 797 00:29:24,859 --> 00:29:27,650 could then, you know, you create an interaction 798 00:29:27,650 --> 00:29:29,506 mechanic that has a lot of abstract 799 00:29:29,818 --> 00:29:32,442 you know, apparatus that helps invite people in 800 00:29:32,442 --> 00:29:33,237 particular directions, 801 00:29:34,031 --> 00:29:35,486 you know, but we also had 802 00:29:36,337 --> 00:29:38,483 dos like the guides who brought people through 803 00:29:38,483 --> 00:29:41,132 that project, Mh. And we had... We had 804 00:29:41,132 --> 00:29:43,289 created a a scene was like share some 805 00:29:43,289 --> 00:29:46,086 of the experiences we're trying to cultivate. Mh. 806 00:29:46,246 --> 00:29:47,045 But you're welcome. 807 00:29:47,539 --> 00:29:49,134 You know, we've we've done workshops with them 808 00:29:49,134 --> 00:29:50,672 to cultivate their own 809 00:29:51,129 --> 00:29:52,267 authentic relational 810 00:29:52,964 --> 00:29:55,290 situation in the space and like, what they 811 00:29:55,290 --> 00:29:57,595 wanted to invite people into? And I think 812 00:29:57,595 --> 00:29:59,446 it's that that ecosystem systemic 813 00:30:00,059 --> 00:30:02,047 relationship attention? Like, can you make a space, 814 00:30:02,699 --> 00:30:04,555 that allows people to be who they are 815 00:30:04,853 --> 00:30:07,247 and gives them some reassurance so that they're 816 00:30:07,247 --> 00:30:09,242 willing to take some risks. Yeah. And then 817 00:30:09,242 --> 00:30:09,960 makes those risks. 818 00:30:10,612 --> 00:30:12,676 Lead to places of repair. So so 1 819 00:30:12,676 --> 00:30:14,660 of the things that was shocking and amazing, 820 00:30:14,819 --> 00:30:16,406 and it made me rethink all of my 821 00:30:16,406 --> 00:30:17,779 biases about the Midwest 822 00:30:18,250 --> 00:30:20,570 we had a little hut in that project 823 00:30:20,570 --> 00:30:22,970 in the first iteration where a person in 824 00:30:22,970 --> 00:30:24,410 a heads to toe yellow suit. 825 00:30:25,942 --> 00:30:26,681 Like a 826 00:30:27,375 --> 00:30:27,875 nylon... 827 00:30:28,728 --> 00:30:30,161 See It was very weird. Yeah. 828 00:30:31,195 --> 00:30:34,379 A fizzy dan root fermented beverage we've made 829 00:30:34,379 --> 00:30:36,704 into people's mouths. And and we were thinking 830 00:30:36,704 --> 00:30:39,812 about the relationship between... Like, Dan is is 831 00:30:39,812 --> 00:30:42,044 known to be very nourishing to the microbiome. 832 00:30:42,522 --> 00:30:44,526 I think you... Don't think about the microbiome. 833 00:30:44,685 --> 00:30:46,457 So we had the silk flag of the 834 00:30:46,514 --> 00:30:48,183 microbiome. And, you know, and then you went 835 00:30:48,183 --> 00:30:49,853 from there to to look out over... It 836 00:30:49,853 --> 00:30:51,523 was right before they closed to the lock 837 00:30:51,523 --> 00:30:52,849 dam and Yeah. Just 838 00:30:53,208 --> 00:30:55,596 head of the nav Mississippi and Dan lands 839 00:30:55,596 --> 00:30:57,109 are now commodity you could get in the 840 00:30:57,109 --> 00:30:58,542 c ops 12 months a year. So we're 841 00:30:58,542 --> 00:31:00,772 thinking about the microbiome. But in the microbiome 842 00:31:00,772 --> 00:31:00,931 stop, 843 00:31:01,742 --> 00:31:03,654 hundreds of people came through. I mean Northern 844 00:31:03,734 --> 00:31:05,804 Spark, it's an event, 10000 people come to. 845 00:31:06,123 --> 00:31:09,172 Yeah. And every single person who came through 846 00:31:09,229 --> 00:31:12,138 accepted having this weirdly dressed figure 847 00:31:12,836 --> 00:31:15,793 drip an unknown bitter, fizzy substance their well. 848 00:31:16,193 --> 00:31:17,951 No And and it was a consent process. 849 00:31:18,191 --> 00:31:18,510 Right. Right. 850 00:31:19,404 --> 00:31:21,644 People were invited and they we had... We 851 00:31:21,644 --> 00:31:23,164 had expected a lot of people would opt 852 00:31:23,164 --> 00:31:24,684 out, and we had made a whole script 853 00:31:24,684 --> 00:31:26,444 for this, So Yeah. No 1 opted that. 854 00:31:27,097 --> 00:31:29,328 And that made anything, Like, that really reinforced 855 00:31:29,328 --> 00:31:31,820 my belief that part of what people need 856 00:31:31,957 --> 00:31:33,971 is like this giant sensory 857 00:31:34,905 --> 00:31:35,861 existential hug. Mh. 858 00:31:36,433 --> 00:31:36,830 You're like, 859 00:31:37,625 --> 00:31:37,942 yeah. 860 00:31:38,816 --> 00:31:39,952 It's a disaster 861 00:31:40,484 --> 00:31:42,629 and we've got each other's backs. But like, 862 00:31:42,868 --> 00:31:44,298 what you're feeling is real? 863 00:31:45,027 --> 00:31:46,773 And let's make a space where you can 864 00:31:46,773 --> 00:31:48,599 relax from minute it. Yeah. And then you 865 00:31:48,599 --> 00:31:50,821 could stretch in a new direction. No. And 866 00:31:50,980 --> 00:31:53,222 I think... Yeah. Go ahead. No. I'm just 867 00:31:53,222 --> 00:31:54,737 right. I I think that's exactly right. Right? 868 00:31:54,977 --> 00:31:57,210 So earlier, you had some... Said something about 869 00:31:57,210 --> 00:31:59,603 metrics and... Right We had talked about metrics 870 00:31:59,603 --> 00:32:00,560 and you said something about 871 00:32:02,568 --> 00:32:05,538 Oh, what did... What was I thinking? Something 872 00:32:05,993 --> 00:32:08,383 about, oh, health. Right? Like, we we tend 873 00:32:08,383 --> 00:32:09,896 to... Like, right. Like, the metrics tend to 874 00:32:09,896 --> 00:32:11,091 be really thin about health. 875 00:32:11,823 --> 00:32:14,687 And when... Right... I think he... You're exactly 876 00:32:14,687 --> 00:32:14,925 right that. 877 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:16,914 1 of the ways we need to kind 878 00:32:16,914 --> 00:32:18,585 of broaden the ways we think about, like, 879 00:32:18,919 --> 00:32:21,647 positive outcomes is to be more mindful about 880 00:32:21,704 --> 00:32:23,773 wellness more broadly. Right? Like, I I think... 881 00:32:24,490 --> 00:32:26,081 Right. Having people feel hugged, 882 00:32:26,815 --> 00:32:28,575 Right? Like, the... This sort of a existential 883 00:32:28,575 --> 00:32:29,075 hug 884 00:32:30,575 --> 00:32:33,454 and and the acknowledgement of care and and 885 00:32:33,454 --> 00:32:34,674 the recognition that 886 00:32:35,147 --> 00:32:37,848 we have care even if things are kind 887 00:32:37,848 --> 00:32:39,994 of bad. Right? That we we all essentially 888 00:32:39,994 --> 00:32:40,788 care for 1 another. 889 00:32:41,583 --> 00:32:43,013 I I think that's important. Right? Like, I 890 00:32:43,093 --> 00:32:45,094 I think right the... You've talked a lot 891 00:32:45,094 --> 00:32:47,637 about building community. You've you've talked a lot 892 00:32:47,637 --> 00:32:48,273 about, you know, 893 00:32:50,260 --> 00:32:52,539 empowering folks. And and I and I think 894 00:32:52,818 --> 00:32:53,318 having 895 00:32:53,695 --> 00:32:55,948 a richer idea of wellness 896 00:32:56,564 --> 00:32:59,114 beyond just sort of basic physical health. 897 00:33:00,644 --> 00:33:03,201 Is really important for thinking about food systems. 898 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,238 Yeah. Well, and it's... When I was thinking 899 00:33:06,238 --> 00:33:07,916 about with, you know, when I was talking 900 00:33:07,916 --> 00:33:08,795 about letting the... 901 00:33:09,606 --> 00:33:11,672 Like, the messi day of the kitchen? Mh. 902 00:33:11,831 --> 00:33:13,182 Part of where I landed with that was, 903 00:33:13,818 --> 00:33:16,758 can that invert our sense, like, our entitled 904 00:33:16,758 --> 00:33:19,636 sense that food exists, to serve us. To 905 00:33:19,636 --> 00:33:22,420 thinking about how do we serve food? U. 906 00:33:22,579 --> 00:33:22,817 Like, 907 00:33:23,613 --> 00:33:24,829 you know, especially working 908 00:33:25,457 --> 00:33:28,025 it's been a very exciting moment where I've 909 00:33:28,479 --> 00:33:30,490 really appreciated both 910 00:33:30,865 --> 00:33:32,932 growing up in New England and also living 911 00:33:32,932 --> 00:33:35,023 here in Minnesota. Mh. The 912 00:33:35,332 --> 00:33:35,832 capacity 913 00:33:36,442 --> 00:33:38,132 to work in use settle 914 00:33:38,742 --> 00:33:39,242 indigenous 915 00:33:39,614 --> 00:33:43,356 coexistence existence. Mh. Relationship building projects, like like, 916 00:33:43,912 --> 00:33:46,450 huge domain for repair. Like, has not gone 917 00:33:46,450 --> 00:33:47,085 well in the past. 918 00:33:47,719 --> 00:33:49,385 Except where it has. And, like, there have 919 00:33:49,385 --> 00:33:50,892 been, you know, there's this wonderful, 920 00:33:51,384 --> 00:33:53,297 book that I've been recommending to people, although 921 00:33:53,297 --> 00:33:56,088 it's written incredibly geographic language, but called 922 00:33:56,965 --> 00:33:59,970 indigenous coexistence in place. And Mh. It's about 923 00:34:00,247 --> 00:34:03,207 you know, finding these relationships and becoming Kin 924 00:34:03,341 --> 00:34:05,960 is book reading now and tons of people 925 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,023 have now read breeding sweet grass. So there's 926 00:34:08,023 --> 00:34:08,394 this 927 00:34:08,993 --> 00:34:11,625 attention to this, and this idea of, you 928 00:34:11,625 --> 00:34:13,140 know, in the same way that I really 929 00:34:13,140 --> 00:34:14,416 focus on repair, 930 00:34:15,134 --> 00:34:16,570 can we focus on what we have to 931 00:34:16,570 --> 00:34:18,380 offer before we think about what we can 932 00:34:18,500 --> 00:34:18,659 take. 933 00:34:19,380 --> 00:34:21,480 And I as I I see that resonating 934 00:34:21,619 --> 00:34:22,019 tremendously, 935 00:34:22,500 --> 00:34:24,980 With young people, and, you know, the mutual 936 00:34:24,980 --> 00:34:26,739 aid that has been a huge part of 937 00:34:26,739 --> 00:34:29,082 of covid recovery and 938 00:34:29,850 --> 00:34:30,826 recovery from 939 00:34:31,357 --> 00:34:34,607 the George floyd inspired uprisings. I mean, really, 940 00:34:35,099 --> 00:34:37,812 that question of how much people were helping 941 00:34:37,812 --> 00:34:39,009 you to there and how little that was 942 00:34:39,009 --> 00:34:41,663 making it onto the news. Mh. That has 943 00:34:41,961 --> 00:34:43,753 such a a persistent 944 00:34:44,370 --> 00:34:47,642 attention point for students. Mh. And they get 945 00:34:47,642 --> 00:34:50,435 this. Like they are so focused on basic 946 00:34:50,435 --> 00:34:52,767 needs provision within schools and a way to 947 00:34:52,767 --> 00:34:55,085 make that part of a curriculum and, you 948 00:34:55,085 --> 00:34:57,242 know, as more and more people struggle. Like, 949 00:34:57,322 --> 00:34:58,760 like, 1 of the big questions I then 950 00:34:58,760 --> 00:34:59,400 have this is, like, 951 00:35:00,454 --> 00:35:02,535 the academic side, Always wanting to bring another 952 00:35:02,535 --> 00:35:04,295 layer of complexity into it being like. Do 953 00:35:04,295 --> 00:35:05,735 people have a capacity that for this, like, 954 00:35:06,135 --> 00:35:08,535 can we connects our food mutual aid with 955 00:35:08,535 --> 00:35:11,504 this ongoing set of student protests that have 956 00:35:11,504 --> 00:35:14,159 happened in Africa across Africa around 957 00:35:14,697 --> 00:35:17,570 neo def funding of food infrastructure in schools 958 00:35:17,570 --> 00:35:18,070 because 959 00:35:18,463 --> 00:35:20,134 They've been doing this for a really long 960 00:35:20,134 --> 00:35:22,465 time, and it's in this ongoing 961 00:35:23,079 --> 00:35:25,729 fight and arguably they have retained more 962 00:35:26,759 --> 00:35:28,996 infrastructure in many places like university students still 963 00:35:28,996 --> 00:35:31,334 have subsidized lunch, which we do not. And 964 00:35:31,713 --> 00:35:33,231 and how amazing if we could bring that 965 00:35:33,231 --> 00:35:35,324 into the farm bill. Mh. Like, we have 966 00:35:35,405 --> 00:35:37,324 K through 12 food programs, 967 00:35:37,804 --> 00:35:40,045 people don't suddenly become food secure because they 968 00:35:40,045 --> 00:35:42,454 turn 18. Like, you know, but... I think 969 00:35:42,454 --> 00:35:43,748 this idea of 970 00:35:44,121 --> 00:35:47,139 being involved in those projects and feeling... 971 00:35:47,853 --> 00:35:49,442 I feel like it's a new generation that 972 00:35:49,442 --> 00:35:50,791 is able to offer something, 973 00:35:51,523 --> 00:35:53,357 They also feel the need for us. So 974 00:35:53,437 --> 00:35:54,416 Yeah. It's not 975 00:35:54,793 --> 00:35:56,866 it's not just packing Google for people who 976 00:35:56,866 --> 00:35:57,685 are in 977 00:35:58,222 --> 00:36:01,266 situational poverty because of, a, disaster. We're sending 978 00:36:01,266 --> 00:36:04,372 them, you know, corn soybean packs, which was 979 00:36:04,372 --> 00:36:06,146 very much the experience of offering 980 00:36:06,602 --> 00:36:08,593 that students had maybe 10 years ago, 981 00:36:09,404 --> 00:36:11,422 They've been on mission trips or they 982 00:36:11,881 --> 00:36:13,879 they had done these charity based things. And 983 00:36:14,039 --> 00:36:15,258 I think this 984 00:36:15,637 --> 00:36:17,475 generational shift to neutral aid has been... 985 00:36:18,527 --> 00:36:21,498 Huge. Yeah. And I feel like we can 986 00:36:21,557 --> 00:36:23,949 amplify that and and this kind of also 987 00:36:23,949 --> 00:36:25,463 brings up this role of like, why are 988 00:36:25,463 --> 00:36:27,949 we academics look part of what we're able 989 00:36:27,949 --> 00:36:29,565 to bring to these community movements 990 00:36:30,021 --> 00:36:30,521 is 991 00:36:31,136 --> 00:36:33,288 is an invitation into the history and, you, 992 00:36:33,447 --> 00:36:35,294 like, the highlander school. And other places where 993 00:36:35,294 --> 00:36:37,046 this has been happening and where it continues 994 00:36:37,046 --> 00:36:38,798 and, you know, here's how to connect to 995 00:36:38,798 --> 00:36:41,745 their lessons and maybe maybe metrics they have 996 00:36:41,745 --> 00:36:44,228 used that could counter about the less productive 997 00:36:44,228 --> 00:36:45,183 metrics. Mh. 998 00:36:45,740 --> 00:36:47,013 Well, and I mean, 999 00:36:47,967 --> 00:36:49,718 going back a little bit, Right, They're talking 1000 00:36:49,718 --> 00:36:51,707 about the the need and how much... 1001 00:36:52,438 --> 00:36:55,063 Younger folks have sort of embraced mutual aid. 1002 00:36:55,460 --> 00:36:57,130 I I mean, I find that completely surprising. 1003 00:36:57,289 --> 00:36:59,676 Right? Like, thinking back totally to well, to 1004 00:36:59,676 --> 00:37:00,550 to wellness. Right? Like, 1005 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:02,709 I think a key element of wellness is 1006 00:37:02,709 --> 00:37:05,804 feeling purpose. Right? Feeling that you're contributing, feeling 1007 00:37:05,804 --> 00:37:07,312 like you're giving. 1008 00:37:08,599 --> 00:37:10,911 And I not and I think right? Like, 1009 00:37:11,389 --> 00:37:12,904 I mean, we've talked about Neil the B. 1010 00:37:13,382 --> 00:37:14,578 I mean, I think for a very long 1011 00:37:14,578 --> 00:37:14,737 time, 1012 00:37:15,455 --> 00:37:16,731 we had an ethic of, 1013 00:37:17,382 --> 00:37:19,630 taking of greed Right? Like, we purpose 1014 00:37:20,005 --> 00:37:22,706 was defined in terms of, like, profit. And 1015 00:37:22,706 --> 00:37:24,772 that's a really empty sort of sense of 1016 00:37:24,772 --> 00:37:27,039 purpose. And I think younger folks 1017 00:37:27,418 --> 00:37:30,455 recognize that. And they... So they they... I 1018 00:37:30,455 --> 00:37:32,293 mean, I I think... Great. This is why 1019 00:37:32,612 --> 00:37:35,270 Mutual aid probably is resident because it includes 1020 00:37:35,505 --> 00:37:37,585 elements of relationship building and it includes elements 1021 00:37:37,585 --> 00:37:39,984 of purpose. That includes elements of, like, 1022 00:37:40,784 --> 00:37:41,764 empowerment through 1023 00:37:42,065 --> 00:37:42,565 being 1024 00:37:43,425 --> 00:37:46,311 a contributor to, like, the the common welfare 1025 00:37:46,311 --> 00:37:49,416 and the common good. Totally. And and the 1026 00:37:49,416 --> 00:37:52,520 more you are able to participate in that... 1027 00:37:53,171 --> 00:37:54,681 Contribution, the more you're able to see the 1028 00:37:54,681 --> 00:37:57,861 common. Mh. And and to experience that common, 1029 00:37:58,179 --> 00:38:00,007 not just as an aspiration, but it's something 1030 00:38:00,007 --> 00:38:02,178 that's already existing and thriving. 1031 00:38:02,897 --> 00:38:05,694 And that's a place to anchor relationship. Mh. 1032 00:38:05,854 --> 00:38:06,494 Yeah totally. 1033 00:38:11,382 --> 00:38:13,217 We've reached another natural break in the conversation 1034 00:38:13,217 --> 00:38:14,893 that I had with Valentine Do. So this 1035 00:38:14,893 --> 00:38:16,249 is a good spot to end this episode. 1036 00:38:16,728 --> 00:38:18,820 To summarize in this episode, Valentine and I 1037 00:38:18,820 --> 00:38:20,660 started by talking about how we each conceptualize 1038 00:38:20,660 --> 00:38:22,180 food justice, and this led is to talk 1039 00:38:22,180 --> 00:38:24,500 about critical media literacy, and the use of 1040 00:38:24,500 --> 00:38:27,014 art as a mode of collective expression. And 1041 00:38:27,074 --> 00:38:29,072 relationship building and how that supports community based 1042 00:38:29,072 --> 00:38:29,631 food movements. 1043 00:38:30,350 --> 00:38:32,209 In the next episode of justice sustainability, 1044 00:38:32,668 --> 00:38:34,666 we'll the conclusion of the conversation that I 1045 00:38:34,666 --> 00:38:35,385 had with Valentine, 1046 00:38:40,114 --> 00:38:41,893 Thank you for listening to just sustainability. 1047 00:38:42,431 --> 00:38:44,442 If you enjoyed what you heard. Please support 1048 00:38:44,442 --> 00:38:46,994 this podcast by subscribing and leaving a review. 1049 00:38:47,552 --> 00:38:49,784 Just sustainability is recorded with the support of 1050 00:38:49,784 --> 00:38:52,415 the Institute environment at the University of Minnesota. 1051 00:38:52,749 --> 00:38:54,904 In particular, I wanna thank Peter Levin and 1052 00:38:54,984 --> 00:38:56,421 Beth Mercer Taylor for all their help with 1053 00:38:56,421 --> 00:38:59,374 this show. All the Music justice sustainability is 1054 00:38:59,374 --> 00:39:00,970 composed and recorded by Clifton Ess, 1055 00:39:01,624 --> 00:39:03,302 And all our work was created by Kristen 1056 00:39:03,462 --> 00:39:04,980 Ness. Thank you again for listening.