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Welcome to historically thinking.

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A podcast about history and how to think

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about history.

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For more on this episode, go to historically

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thinking dot org g where you can find

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links and readings related to today's podcast,

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Hello, just before 10AM on Tuesday, 06/09/1964

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in Tu,

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Alabama,

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hundreds of people were gathered in first African

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baptist,

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prepared to March the new Tu County Courthouse,

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where they plan to drink from water fountains

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and used restroom facilities that were supposed to

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be only used by whites.

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Around the church were gathered hundreds of police

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members at the K k clan and other

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d digitized whites.

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At 10:15AM

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after the arrest of Reverend t y Rogers,

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pastor of first African Baptist, the police attacked

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the church.

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They beat those who attempted to leave with

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clubs and cattle prod.

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Then the door being closed and locked. They

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brought up a fire truck. And blasted away

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the stained glass windows, filling the sanctuary in

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some places ankle deep with water.

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Then tear gas canisters were fired through the

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gaping windows

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driving those within outside where they were beaten

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and many were haul off to jail.

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This was bloody Tuesday,

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Now a nearly forgotten inflection point in the

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civil rights struggle

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overshadowed by the concurrent campaign,

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then ongoing in Saint Augustine, Florida,

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by national events and weeks to come and

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by the violence of Selma, Alabama in 19

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65.

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John Gig has preserved the memories of Bloody

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Tuesday, and the complex struggle for justice in

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Tu in his new book, Bloody Tuesday, the

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untold story of the struggle for civil rights

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in Tu.

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John M gig is associate professor of history

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and director of the summer cell center for

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the study of the south at the university

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of Alabama. He's creator of history of us.

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The first black history class talk daily in

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a public school in Alabama.

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Gig is also director of the Alabama memory

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project, which seeks to recapture and memorial

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the over 650

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lives lost to Lynch in Alabama, and is

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a founding member of the tu Civil rights

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history and

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reconciliation foundation.

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John M gig. Welcome to historically thinking. It's

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so good to be here with you this

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morning.

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So

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I was entrance from the first pages of

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the book,

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and I was also captivated

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by the way that you structured the book.

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So... And

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I noted,

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with the words John fee,

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the writer jonathan at fee in my head

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that if you've got an odd number of

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chapters,

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the middle chapter then is the important the

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crux of the matter to which you're driving.

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I so I I think I see doing

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that. I saw sort of braid structure.

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So you begin, the first 3 chapters are

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really the biographies of 3

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poor southern boys,

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really?

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They are not Bourgeois.

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No none of the 3 characters that you

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use are of, the member of the rising

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Bourgeois, the new South of Henry Grady New

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South,

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they're poor country boys. And yet, of course,

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then you take their bio,

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and then you weave other things into it.

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So could you... Before we get to anything

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else before we get to those 3 poor

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boys,

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Could we talk about how you settled on

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this structure?

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Yeah. The book is really, as you mentioned,

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the intersection of

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of lives that were more powerful

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than even they really is at the time.

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You have

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the

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the rising power of 1 of reverend King's

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most interesting and successful young lieutenant and a

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reverend T y Rogers.

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Who king trained personally when he was pastor

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her dexter avenue in Montgomery.

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He comes to Tu under the mandate to

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democrat and integrate the city.

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The reason that's such an important mission

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is that Tu hosts

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the home of the imperial wizard of a

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clan, Robert Shelton,

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who for years had quarterback

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acts of terror across the south

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from his office and home in Tu.

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You also have a police chief of the

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same vein of a bull honor

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in Birmingham or a Jim Clark

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in in Selma that is an individual who's

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desperate

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to use whatever power he has.

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To keep the lid on

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segregation.

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So these 3 individuals

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form a kind of

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violent chore that happens in 19 64

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and plays out in the streets of Tu.

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And its value is as many fold On

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the 1 hand, King would invest resources in

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Tu

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because he knew of the enormous symbolic value

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of integrating

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the home of the clan leader.

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At the same time, he had been in

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Tu

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in 19 56 to preach a sermon. He

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never returned.

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Because as he wrote locals here, he was

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terrified for the violence of the city.

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Tu for generations have been among the most

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violent, Not only in Alabama,

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but in the entire cell.

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There are over a hundred lynch in the

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Tu county area by itself.

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And the city and the county commissioners themselves

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had created

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a very tightly braid infrastructure of Jim Crow

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such that for the slightest fractions,

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individuals, black individuals to be put in jail,

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put in the comp lisa and and find

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themselves working on road crews for months of

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night years.

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In many ways,

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king recognize recognized that breaking

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the grip of segregation in the clan in

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Tu. So would send a signal to the

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movement in 19 64,

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that

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the Sc and the movements power is growing.

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To integrate Tu

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was integrate 1 of the great citadel,

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of segregation evil in the deep south.

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So so I wanna go through those those...

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Those personalities and those issues. And let's begin

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with t y Rogers,

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who is

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those who dies young,

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and

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is therefore not known the way we know

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Jesse Jackson

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or John Lewis

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certainly or Ralph Abe for that matter. Certainly,

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he would, I think

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be known the way that they were all

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of them

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you know, Jackson because of his longevity accepted,

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all of them

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overshadowed by Kings,

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personality and sort of status,

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but Rogers is extraordinary.

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He is, obviously,

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he is a case for a certain kind

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of merit. He is just so damn smart.

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That even in segregated

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Alabama, he is able to push himself forward

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through black education and rise to eventually

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king's own notice

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Yeah. Reverend T Rogers is

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that black civil rights leader during the movement

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that no 1 knows about everyone should.

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In part of

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that is because he died at 35 in

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a car accident. And at that time, he

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was the head of the National affiliates for

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the Sc

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just 1 of the highest positions on the

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mas head. He was

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climbing the ranks

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to take over the Sc sci when he

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when he when he was killed but when

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he when he passed.

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But Rogers grew up,

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Dirt pour in About 70 miles Southwest of

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Tu.

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But from early age, he was recognized as

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being a genius.

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He he moved through public school very, very

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quickly. He went to Alabama state college.

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Which was then the the beacon

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of black intellectual life and the state and

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across much of the south.

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And there at Alabama state,

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He fell into the spell of Reverend king.

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A alabama state is very close its campus

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to Dexter Avenue.

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And when King took over dexter,

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he he came to note t y

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because t y was head of most of

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the some of the main religious organizations on

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campus.

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And

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Reverend canyon immediately noticed

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2 wise brilliance and his passion and began

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to mentor him.

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Eventually, he invited t wide to study with

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him every Sunday in his study,

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He then eventually

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would annoy t y as a... As a

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minister.

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He would host his installation sermon at Dexter

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He gave t y his first

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position as a clerical as his assistant pastor

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at Dexter.

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He placed t y. After graduating from Alabama

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state and and serving with him at decks,

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we placed him a cro seminary, where King

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had gone to get his

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degree.

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Then can call him back

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to Alabama and said I need you. I

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need you to integrate Tu.

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Rogers came back in part because he wanted

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as he told his mother, he heard the

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cries at the before he wanted to be

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part of the solution.

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To segregation, but he also wanted a stage.

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He wanted to become a national figure in

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civil rights.

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And he like King believed that integrating Tu

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would give him that stage would give him

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the notoriety he sought to become a national

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spokesperson,

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for

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integration.

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So it's no surprise and Red Rogers moved

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to Tu,

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king in 19 63 returns to the city

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he had avoided for 8 years

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and preach installation sermon

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and put Tu in Alabama on alert that

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the movement was coming and reverend t rod

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would lead it.

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He also pledged the resources of the Sc,

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which is an important piece because 2 came

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not simply as a baptist minister, but as

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a baptist minister, was an necessary for Revere

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king, and all of King's money, all of

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King's power all of King's connections.

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So very shortly, reverend King is sending

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Ct Vivian Ralph Abe,

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Jesse Jackson to support to leading counsel.

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The movement in Tu elusive.

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But 1 of the gifts that reverend Rogers

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had was it was a speaker.

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People who remember him say you could close

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your eyes, and you would think Reverend King

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was speaking to you or preaching in the

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church.

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He had the ability to rise people, out

282
00:10:39,362 --> 00:10:41,432
of their chairs and convince them that this

283
00:10:41,432 --> 00:10:43,582
was their moment. This was their time to

284
00:10:43,741 --> 00:10:46,209
March to pick it to demand their freedom.

285
00:10:47,339 --> 00:10:49,574
Not surprisingly several years later,

286
00:10:50,372 --> 00:10:51,569
in 19 65,

287
00:10:52,048 --> 00:10:55,321
when king is marching from Selma to Montgomery.

288
00:10:56,213 --> 00:10:58,287
Rev Rogers meets it in Montgomery. Is 1

289
00:10:58,287 --> 00:11:00,201
of the featured speakers on the stairs of

290
00:11:00,201 --> 00:11:01,318
the Alabama capital.

291
00:11:01,956 --> 00:11:04,508
And there with king addresses, the crowds and

292
00:11:04,508 --> 00:11:05,465
the Tv cameras.

293
00:11:06,038 --> 00:11:07,493
It promises the world

294
00:11:07,869 --> 00:11:10,597
that Tu instead of Alabama have had it

295
00:11:10,893 --> 00:11:13,201
with the leadership of George Wallace have had

296
00:11:13,201 --> 00:11:15,526
it with what he called in 19 65,

297
00:11:16,004 --> 00:11:17,598
the legacy of police brutality.

298
00:11:18,634 --> 00:11:19,691
So Reverend Rogers

299
00:11:20,387 --> 00:11:23,096
was like king almost every perspective. He sounded

300
00:11:23,096 --> 00:11:25,665
like he was trained liking king. He aspire

301
00:11:25,665 --> 00:11:26,702
to greatness light king.

302
00:11:27,581 --> 00:11:29,177
The only tragedy here is that his life

303
00:11:29,177 --> 00:11:30,774
was cut short and a train or or

304
00:11:30,774 --> 00:11:33,184
other car in outside of Atlanta. And in

305
00:11:33,184 --> 00:11:34,384
the early 19 seventies.

306
00:11:36,304 --> 00:11:37,904
Could could you describe him a little bit

307
00:11:37,904 --> 00:11:39,504
more? He's a he's a beam pole of

308
00:11:39,504 --> 00:11:39,904
them man.

309
00:11:41,039 --> 00:11:43,200
Who likes to walk fast and eat fast

310
00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:44,079
and drive fast.

311
00:11:44,639 --> 00:11:46,320
Right. That's... There's are some of the things

312
00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,000
that stay with me about them. Yep.

313
00:11:48,654 --> 00:11:51,128
So Reverend Rogers from a a young child

314
00:11:51,128 --> 00:11:53,523
was a bundle of energy. His mother used

315
00:11:53,523 --> 00:11:55,040
to worry where he was because he was

316
00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:56,976
always running around the house. Always...

317
00:11:57,528 --> 00:11:59,193
Preaching the people wherever would listen to him.

318
00:11:59,748 --> 00:12:01,730
As an adult, he would he would he

319
00:12:01,730 --> 00:12:04,346
would smoke all the time. He loved to

320
00:12:04,346 --> 00:12:06,745
drive fat, and people were terrified driving with

321
00:12:06,745 --> 00:12:08,178
him because he never kept his eyes on

322
00:12:08,178 --> 00:12:09,769
the robe, but he's always speaking to the

323
00:12:09,769 --> 00:12:11,361
person in the front seat, looking at them

324
00:12:11,361 --> 00:12:11,997
as he rode.

325
00:12:13,522 --> 00:12:15,190
He was famous in the local neighborhoods in

326
00:12:15,269 --> 00:12:17,889
Tu because she would hear his car roaring,

327
00:12:18,366 --> 00:12:20,113
you know, 3, 400 feet away You would

328
00:12:20,113 --> 00:12:21,542
jump back from the curb because you were

329
00:12:21,542 --> 00:12:23,151
worried, never knew what too I was gonna

330
00:12:23,151 --> 00:12:25,065
be driving. He was always weaving down the

331
00:12:25,065 --> 00:12:25,384
roads.

332
00:12:25,942 --> 00:12:27,857
But this intensity of this passion.

333
00:12:28,415 --> 00:12:30,329
He brought that to his his his world

334
00:12:30,329 --> 00:12:31,526
of civil rights leadership.

335
00:12:32,098 --> 00:12:34,087
He was the 1 banging on doors asking

336
00:12:34,087 --> 00:12:35,439
people to join them in the movement.

337
00:12:35,917 --> 00:12:37,508
He was the 1 who was demanding that

338
00:12:37,587 --> 00:12:39,591
Black should walk and pro. Guys even though

339
00:12:39,591 --> 00:12:41,580
the police were threatening, even though the clan

340
00:12:41,580 --> 00:12:43,887
was threatening his family, even though he was

341
00:12:43,887 --> 00:12:44,387
getting

342
00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,626
signals from much more conservative ministers across the

343
00:12:47,626 --> 00:12:49,153
south slow things down.

344
00:12:50,267 --> 00:12:52,176
He felt as his mother said that his

345
00:12:52,176 --> 00:12:53,926
time on Earth was limited and he had

346
00:12:53,926 --> 00:12:54,744
to accomplish

347
00:12:55,213 --> 00:12:57,123
what God had put him on this planet

348
00:12:57,123 --> 00:12:59,429
to do, which in his mind was to

349
00:12:59,429 --> 00:13:01,679
bring justice to the poor and the dis,

350
00:13:02,708 --> 00:13:04,543
to bring justice of the people that he

351
00:13:04,543 --> 00:13:04,863
represented.

352
00:13:07,177 --> 00:13:09,672
Now T Rogers is is

353
00:13:10,543 --> 00:13:13,893
might be a leader of in tu and

354
00:13:13,893 --> 00:13:16,446
at a bloody to Tuesday, but we do

355
00:13:16,446 --> 00:13:18,121
not want to give the impression that he

356
00:13:18,121 --> 00:13:20,035
is alone carrying everyone on his back.

357
00:13:20,925 --> 00:13:23,709
There is a Tu citizens for action committee,

358
00:13:23,868 --> 00:13:26,096
which pre dates his arrival, And we should

359
00:13:26,096 --> 00:13:28,979
be precise here. The Blaze Tuesday is, as

360
00:13:29,138 --> 00:13:32,328
I said on 06/09/1964.

361
00:13:32,966 --> 00:13:36,690
Rogers is installed or arrives in Tu early

362
00:13:36,729 --> 00:13:37,548
64

363
00:13:37,607 --> 00:13:40,239
and is not installed officially into what April,

364
00:13:40,638 --> 00:13:43,190
late March? Correct. He's installed in in March

365
00:13:43,190 --> 00:13:44,067
of 64.

366
00:13:44,865 --> 00:13:46,482
And what he inherit

367
00:13:46,954 --> 00:13:49,906
is a fairly well developed local civil rights

368
00:13:49,906 --> 00:13:50,385
movement.

369
00:13:51,023 --> 00:13:54,156
For several years, ministers had begun to

370
00:13:54,549 --> 00:13:56,246
put in the infrastructure of protest.

371
00:13:57,741 --> 00:13:59,816
They have protested a local the local bus

372
00:13:59,816 --> 00:14:01,811
company. They begun to pick it,

373
00:14:02,863 --> 00:14:04,320
1 of 2 wise predecessor,

374
00:14:04,857 --> 00:14:06,633
he rev Hertz at a local

375
00:14:07,648 --> 00:14:09,882
church. He had been the head of the

376
00:14:10,121 --> 00:14:11,955
C for the state of Alabama.

377
00:14:13,324 --> 00:14:14,460
So you see

378
00:14:14,915 --> 00:14:15,415
the

379
00:14:15,790 --> 00:14:17,563
beginnings of a of a powerful

380
00:14:19,784 --> 00:14:22,676
set of ideas and mechanics that would be

381
00:14:22,815 --> 00:14:23,315
necessary

382
00:14:23,931 --> 00:14:26,164
for any kind of rights movement. So Rev

383
00:14:26,244 --> 00:14:29,217
Rogers inherit a fairly mature organization

384
00:14:29,610 --> 00:14:31,629
and then his job becomes to

385
00:14:32,330 --> 00:14:35,129
expand it to energize it to drive it

386
00:14:35,129 --> 00:14:35,610
forward.

387
00:14:36,330 --> 00:14:37,941
Another piece of this, and this is what

388
00:14:37,941 --> 00:14:39,851
makes the story of Tu is so important

389
00:14:39,851 --> 00:14:40,965
is the role of black women.

390
00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,148
As structure I structure the book according to,

391
00:14:44,387 --> 00:14:45,899
in many ways, male leadership.

392
00:14:46,869 --> 00:14:49,287
But that's only because there wasn't a dominant

393
00:14:49,346 --> 00:14:49,846
woman

394
00:14:50,385 --> 00:14:52,622
black woman in the community that was up

395
00:14:52,622 --> 00:14:54,620
the same stature of any of these individuals.

396
00:14:55,991 --> 00:14:58,144
But what I try to do is represent

397
00:14:58,144 --> 00:14:59,978
these woman on every page that I can.

398
00:15:00,298 --> 00:15:01,972
They're the ones that are raising money. They're

399
00:15:01,972 --> 00:15:03,567
the ones that are marketing. They're often the

400
00:15:03,567 --> 00:15:07,019
ones that are. Reverend Rogers most fe disciples.

401
00:15:07,500 --> 00:15:09,100
They're the ones that the local high school

402
00:15:09,100 --> 00:15:11,899
or the local H still that are bringing

403
00:15:11,899 --> 00:15:13,899
people together and bringing them to Marches.

404
00:15:15,035 --> 00:15:17,215
So Rem Rogers also is inheriting

405
00:15:17,595 --> 00:15:19,514
this powerful group of the young people,

406
00:15:20,315 --> 00:15:22,394
often composed most of the young black women

407
00:15:22,394 --> 00:15:23,195
who are eager.

408
00:15:23,689 --> 00:15:24,748
To test the boundaries

409
00:15:25,366 --> 00:15:27,383
of segregation and are desperate

410
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:29,778
to claim their their place

411
00:15:30,874 --> 00:15:32,551
alongside democracy here in Alabama.

412
00:15:35,592 --> 00:15:35,990
Let's

413
00:15:37,184 --> 00:15:39,094
talk about William Hertz for just a second.

414
00:15:39,651 --> 00:15:41,574
My antenna kind of

415
00:15:42,209 --> 00:15:44,749
tremble when that came across him because, you

416
00:15:44,749 --> 00:15:46,655
know, like you, I used to claim on

417
00:15:46,655 --> 00:15:48,481
my union card that I was historian of

418
00:15:48,481 --> 00:15:49,433
of American religion.

419
00:15:50,244 --> 00:15:52,162
And so it's very interesting to me that

420
00:15:52,162 --> 00:15:54,640
he's not only a lutheran, but Lutheran church

421
00:15:54,879 --> 00:15:55,439
Missouri sin.

422
00:15:56,558 --> 00:15:58,635
So in other words, he's a member of

423
00:15:58,635 --> 00:16:01,370
an out of the way subs of an

424
00:16:01,370 --> 00:16:04,089
out of the way sec within American religious

425
00:16:04,089 --> 00:16:04,329
life.

426
00:16:04,970 --> 00:16:07,549
I've heard both presbyterian and Roman Catholic theologian

427
00:16:07,769 --> 00:16:08,669
and historians

428
00:16:09,143 --> 00:16:10,257
I don't know if they were reading each

429
00:16:10,257 --> 00:16:12,962
other, but comment more that the natural

430
00:16:13,598 --> 00:16:15,666
religious state of an American is baptist.

431
00:16:16,398 --> 00:16:18,809
That's whether they're humanitarian or buddhist or

432
00:16:19,345 --> 00:16:20,642
you presbyterian

433
00:16:21,257 --> 00:16:22,315
overall really baptist

434
00:16:22,771 --> 00:16:25,081
Mh, for reasons of american urbanization.

435
00:16:26,294 --> 00:16:28,375
And it's very interesting that Hertz,

436
00:16:29,095 --> 00:16:31,575
missouri soon as I understand it had had

437
00:16:31,575 --> 00:16:34,615
had missions in the North Alabama Pine woods.

438
00:16:35,346 --> 00:16:36,617
And I was wondering,

439
00:16:37,411 --> 00:16:37,911
Her

440
00:16:38,284 --> 00:16:39,420
basically gives

441
00:16:40,031 --> 00:16:42,969
passes over the baton to Rogers.

442
00:16:43,446 --> 00:16:43,946
He's

443
00:16:44,574 --> 00:16:45,074
personally

444
00:16:46,569 --> 00:16:49,303
and morally and emotionally and spiritually

445
00:16:49,681 --> 00:16:52,176
exhausted and beat. He's been

446
00:16:52,489 --> 00:16:54,647
doing this for, at least 4 years.

447
00:16:56,245 --> 00:16:56,745
And

448
00:16:57,364 --> 00:16:59,362
so there's that. But I also, you know,

449
00:16:59,522 --> 00:17:00,821
I was wondering about

450
00:17:01,855 --> 00:17:04,174
in the hierarchy of southern religion, there are

451
00:17:04,174 --> 00:17:05,934
various types of baptist and there are other

452
00:17:05,934 --> 00:17:08,335
people beneath them in in many towns. You

453
00:17:08,335 --> 00:17:09,695
can see this just the way that the

454
00:17:09,695 --> 00:17:10,974
churches are laid out.

455
00:17:12,028 --> 00:17:14,123
And I was wondering to what extent

456
00:17:14,580 --> 00:17:17,073
is it just more natural to have

457
00:17:17,690 --> 00:17:20,901
a leader of a movement of any movement

458
00:17:21,134 --> 00:17:23,371
in the south, but particularly the civil rights

459
00:17:23,371 --> 00:17:25,788
movement, who is head of the largest African

460
00:17:27,046 --> 00:17:27,945
black church

461
00:17:28,897 --> 00:17:29,397
and

462
00:17:29,776 --> 00:17:32,410
Tu rather than a person who represents kind

463
00:17:32,410 --> 00:17:34,506
of, you know, are they Catholics?

464
00:17:35,044 --> 00:17:36,641
You know, we're not really sure.

465
00:17:37,214 --> 00:17:39,931
They're not real bad not baptist You know,

466
00:17:40,091 --> 00:17:42,749
what's what's the what's the cultural power of

467
00:17:42,968 --> 00:17:44,566
denomination and and even in the civil rights

468
00:17:44,566 --> 00:17:46,894
movement, it's a huge topic. But I... I've

469
00:17:46,894 --> 00:17:47,529
wondered about that.

470
00:17:48,244 --> 00:17:50,014
Well, rev Hurt himself

471
00:17:50,706 --> 00:17:51,682
confessed that

472
00:17:52,135 --> 00:17:54,359
you only do so much in Alabama because

473
00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:55,233
he wasn't a baptist.

474
00:17:56,283 --> 00:17:58,279
He came to the city or into the

475
00:17:58,279 --> 00:17:59,715
state, fresh from,

476
00:18:00,594 --> 00:18:02,908
seminary and fresh from being involved in the

477
00:18:02,908 --> 00:18:03,967
movement in North Carolina.

478
00:18:04,758 --> 00:18:06,849
And he for a while injected

479
00:18:07,383 --> 00:18:10,008
the state and this community in Tu with

480
00:18:10,008 --> 00:18:11,281
an enormous energy.

481
00:18:11,933 --> 00:18:14,085
He was the 1 that was demanding change.

482
00:18:14,324 --> 00:18:16,237
He was organizing and pushing.

483
00:18:17,193 --> 00:18:18,788
But he very quickly became a target for

484
00:18:18,788 --> 00:18:19,266
the client.

485
00:18:19,998 --> 00:18:22,631
Who identified him and began to terror him.

486
00:18:23,428 --> 00:18:25,364
Her himself had nightmares.

487
00:18:25,980 --> 00:18:28,294
He began to hear voices and and fear

488
00:18:28,294 --> 00:18:30,224
that people were watching him. So she would

489
00:18:30,224 --> 00:18:31,585
slip out of meetings in the back door

490
00:18:31,585 --> 00:18:33,184
go through back windows because he was convinced

491
00:18:33,184 --> 00:18:34,625
someone was in the meeting to kill him.

492
00:18:36,144 --> 00:18:38,305
Eventually, the stress became so great.

493
00:18:39,118 --> 00:18:40,866
That he confessed that his wife mis miscarriage

494
00:18:40,866 --> 00:18:42,773
with her first child because he said of

495
00:18:42,773 --> 00:18:45,315
the stress being a leader to being a

496
00:18:45,315 --> 00:18:45,791
clan.

497
00:18:46,681 --> 00:18:48,454
Or rather being the subject of K

498
00:18:50,103 --> 00:18:50,978
entity and threats.

499
00:18:52,092 --> 00:18:54,718
But Her later talked about, he wasn't a

500
00:18:54,718 --> 00:18:55,218
baptist

501
00:18:55,529 --> 00:18:58,570
So he'd never received a degree of respect

502
00:18:58,570 --> 00:19:00,170
that a black baptist minister would.

503
00:19:00,890 --> 00:19:02,009
I think in the end, what he did

504
00:19:02,009 --> 00:19:03,150
was prepare

505
00:19:03,544 --> 00:19:05,299
Tu and this part of the state of

506
00:19:05,619 --> 00:19:08,571
Alabama, West Alabama. For someone like Reverend Rogers,

507
00:19:09,290 --> 00:19:12,016
who came here with impeccable credential not only

508
00:19:12,016 --> 00:19:13,764
he's 1 of kingsley of tenants, but he's

509
00:19:13,764 --> 00:19:16,227
a local kid from an hour way, and

510
00:19:16,227 --> 00:19:16,863
he's baptist.

511
00:19:17,339 --> 00:19:18,634
He's used to the

512
00:19:19,024 --> 00:19:19,763
the cadences

513
00:19:20,139 --> 00:19:22,132
and the and the structures of the baptist

514
00:19:22,132 --> 00:19:23,827
church. He's able to motivate within

515
00:19:24,204 --> 00:19:25,080
that culture.

516
00:19:25,559 --> 00:19:28,208
This is something that rep Her never could

517
00:19:28,208 --> 00:19:28,448
do.

518
00:19:29,247 --> 00:19:31,425
I think rev Her needs to be remembered

519
00:19:31,564 --> 00:19:34,841
as a pioneering lutheran minister in Alabama who

520
00:19:34,841 --> 00:19:35,820
sets the stage

521
00:19:36,213 --> 00:19:37,908
passes the Baton to a young

522
00:19:38,763 --> 00:19:40,834
baptist minister he was able to capitalize on

523
00:19:40,834 --> 00:19:41,812
what rev Hertz

524
00:19:42,348 --> 00:19:42,826
had done.

525
00:19:43,796 --> 00:19:46,102
But he also reminds I think of the

526
00:19:46,102 --> 00:19:48,885
enormous level of violence that any minister in

527
00:19:49,203 --> 00:19:50,101
Alabama or elsewhere

528
00:19:50,555 --> 00:19:51,565
suffered when they

529
00:19:52,004 --> 00:19:53,383
pursue the course justice.

530
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,197
Rev Hurts never forget yet the sense that

531
00:19:57,197 --> 00:19:58,815
he lost his first child

532
00:19:59,289 --> 00:20:01,047
to the distress of being a civil rights

533
00:20:01,047 --> 00:20:03,845
leader to being in the cross of of

534
00:20:03,845 --> 00:20:04,404
the clan.

535
00:20:05,762 --> 00:20:08,500
Even when Rev Rogers came, rev Her vote

536
00:20:09,212 --> 00:20:11,446
maintain sort of a second seat position because

537
00:20:11,446 --> 00:20:13,839
he was worried. He was terrified that would

538
00:20:13,839 --> 00:20:14,578
the clan

539
00:20:15,035 --> 00:20:17,109
cost him his second child. Would his clan

540
00:20:17,109 --> 00:20:18,146
cost him his family.

541
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:20,080
So in many ways,

542
00:20:20,799 --> 00:20:22,160
Tu needed 2 ministers.

543
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,119
1 was a baptist rubber router, but 1

544
00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:28,010
was this lutheran minister who had energy and

545
00:20:28,010 --> 00:20:28,728
had vision,

546
00:20:29,527 --> 00:20:30,586
but in the end

547
00:20:30,964 --> 00:20:33,918
was crippled by the threat of violence against

548
00:20:33,918 --> 00:20:34,077
him.

549
00:20:36,402 --> 00:20:38,862
There are other people involved in this story.

550
00:20:39,418 --> 00:20:40,608
I wanna make sure before we get to

551
00:20:40,608 --> 00:20:42,354
the end to mention, Reverend Lint,

552
00:20:43,148 --> 00:20:43,703
but also,

553
00:20:44,514 --> 00:20:46,672
Joe Male and the defenders, which sounds like

554
00:20:46,672 --> 00:20:47,391
a band name,

555
00:20:48,270 --> 00:20:48,770
but

556
00:20:49,309 --> 00:20:50,848
is actually literally

557
00:20:51,707 --> 00:20:53,545
a Korean war combat veteran.

558
00:20:54,438 --> 00:20:56,273
Who is a union organizer or a local

559
00:20:56,273 --> 00:20:57,630
plant and who...

560
00:20:58,348 --> 00:20:59,865
Well, I should say there are a lot

561
00:20:59,865 --> 00:21:01,221
of guns in this book as I said

562
00:21:01,221 --> 00:21:02,994
in the notes. For a story of not...

563
00:21:03,234 --> 00:21:05,875
For astoria that we, you know, we might

564
00:21:05,875 --> 00:21:08,434
associate this with non violence and the appropriation

565
00:21:08,434 --> 00:21:11,486
of Mah Gandhi ideas and learning,

566
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:13,020
self

567
00:21:13,395 --> 00:21:15,327
aggregation and and and and

568
00:21:15,862 --> 00:21:18,089
any close reading of letter from Birmingham jail

569
00:21:18,089 --> 00:21:19,703
will give you 1 view of

570
00:21:20,647 --> 00:21:21,202
the movement.

571
00:21:21,995 --> 00:21:24,293
Yeah. This is a different view from the

572
00:21:24,293 --> 00:21:25,799
ground of what the movement is like. And

573
00:21:25,799 --> 00:21:28,037
that somehow as I said to you, this

574
00:21:28,037 --> 00:21:30,667
apparent opposition between non violence and self defense

575
00:21:30,667 --> 00:21:33,058
is not an opposition when you're looking at

576
00:21:33,058 --> 00:21:35,703
from the ground level. There's 1... There's many

577
00:21:35,703 --> 00:21:37,538
movie worthy lines in the book and 1

578
00:21:37,538 --> 00:21:39,134
of them is a woman looks around at

579
00:21:39,134 --> 00:21:41,288
1 gathering and says we need more guns.

580
00:21:42,739 --> 00:21:45,308
And Joe Male provides he provides the firepower

581
00:21:45,365 --> 00:21:47,753
and the tactical acumen to use it. Yeah.

582
00:21:48,549 --> 00:21:50,141
1 of the many lessons of the movement

583
00:21:50,141 --> 00:21:50,974
in Tu

584
00:21:51,352 --> 00:21:53,449
is to give us pause when we divide

585
00:21:54,784 --> 00:21:56,162
ideas of non violence

586
00:21:56,700 --> 00:21:59,348
from ideas of harm black self defense. In

587
00:21:59,508 --> 00:22:01,125
Tu they come together

588
00:22:01,822 --> 00:22:02,540
hand glove.

589
00:22:03,418 --> 00:22:06,211
1 of the many tragedies of 06/09/1964,

590
00:22:06,370 --> 00:22:08,210
this this is the largest invasion of a

591
00:22:08,210 --> 00:22:09,795
black church by law enforcement.

592
00:22:10,508 --> 00:22:12,252
In the goal of law enforcement is to

593
00:22:12,252 --> 00:22:14,729
bring the move to an end and it

594
00:22:14,729 --> 00:22:14,968
works.

595
00:22:15,688 --> 00:22:16,726
For the next month,

596
00:22:17,285 --> 00:22:20,082
you see the cessation civil rights protests and

597
00:22:20,082 --> 00:22:21,040
is part of the world.

598
00:22:21,774 --> 00:22:23,470
But the same time you see the

599
00:22:23,846 --> 00:22:24,086
liberation,

600
00:22:24,723 --> 00:22:26,876
the knit together of Arm black self defense.

601
00:22:27,593 --> 00:22:29,926
Joe M, as you mentioned is a

602
00:22:30,634 --> 00:22:31,984
is it's a Korean veteran,

603
00:22:32,620 --> 00:22:34,367
and he'd never walked through the streets of

604
00:22:34,525 --> 00:22:35,875
Tu unless he was armed.

605
00:22:36,828 --> 00:22:39,622
In his mission after Buddy Tuesday was to

606
00:22:39,622 --> 00:22:40,733
arm the black community.

607
00:22:41,447 --> 00:22:44,224
He would recruit people to him saying this

608
00:22:44,224 --> 00:22:46,921
can never happen again. We might not break

609
00:22:46,921 --> 00:22:49,003
the color line and never again, will the

610
00:22:49,003 --> 00:22:50,060
police and clans,

611
00:22:50,754 --> 00:22:51,709
sack our community,

612
00:22:52,187 --> 00:22:53,540
attack our people in this way.

613
00:22:54,654 --> 00:22:58,425
What you see going forward after 06/09/1964

614
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,339
is that black citizens are patrol their neighborhoods,

615
00:23:01,577 --> 00:23:03,561
People are sitting on their front porch with

616
00:23:03,561 --> 00:23:04,037
shotgun.

617
00:23:04,769 --> 00:23:06,529
Young girls and boys are being taught by

618
00:23:06,529 --> 00:23:09,430
their fathers how to fire weapons. And it's

619
00:23:09,650 --> 00:23:11,029
necessary because you see

620
00:23:11,982 --> 00:23:14,210
clan battles in which blacks and k are

621
00:23:14,210 --> 00:23:15,482
are exchanging gunfire.

622
00:23:16,039 --> 00:23:18,210
And you see the the the need

623
00:23:18,585 --> 00:23:20,278
for armed black self defense

624
00:23:20,907 --> 00:23:22,441
ward off future

625
00:23:22,896 --> 00:23:23,851
levels of violence.

626
00:23:24,726 --> 00:23:26,419
So in many ways, Tu

627
00:23:26,874 --> 00:23:29,674
again, it draws together 2 different themes in

628
00:23:29,674 --> 00:23:31,983
the in the literature of the movement. 1

629
00:23:31,983 --> 00:23:32,483
is

630
00:23:32,938 --> 00:23:33,438
violent

631
00:23:34,211 --> 00:23:35,587
harm black cell defense

632
00:23:36,215 --> 00:23:37,963
alongside of non nonviolent social protest.

633
00:23:38,917 --> 00:23:41,300
These 2 things can exist apart from 1

634
00:23:41,300 --> 00:23:43,525
another in West Alabama. Otherwise, there would be

635
00:23:43,525 --> 00:23:44,002
no move.

636
00:23:44,973 --> 00:23:46,807
And Reverend lint in the barber shop. We

637
00:23:46,807 --> 00:23:49,040
wanna get away from the sort of...

638
00:23:49,838 --> 00:23:52,231
This is not S, the entertainer and the

639
00:23:52,231 --> 00:23:53,427
barber shop. This is

640
00:23:54,558 --> 00:23:55,671
have to put in the notes 2 notes,

641
00:23:55,830 --> 00:23:57,421
the Great book and knights as a razor,

642
00:23:58,216 --> 00:24:00,044
which speaks of the the importance of the

643
00:24:00,124 --> 00:24:02,509
Barber shop in about the Ante bell South

644
00:24:02,509 --> 00:24:03,622
in, United States.

645
00:24:04,913 --> 00:24:07,950
Listeners might remember that Michael Be when we

646
00:24:07,950 --> 00:24:10,507
talked about Lincoln and his relationship with Blacks.

647
00:24:10,906 --> 00:24:14,267
Lincoln's probably best friend is a haitian immigrant

648
00:24:14,267 --> 00:24:16,415
to owned a Barber shop in Springfield. It's

649
00:24:16,415 --> 00:24:17,528
1 of Lincoln's paul bears.

650
00:24:19,293 --> 00:24:22,172
The barber shop is a center of

651
00:24:22,624 --> 00:24:23,338
black dignity.

652
00:24:24,924 --> 00:24:26,987
It... Before the italians start pushing them out.

653
00:24:27,795 --> 00:24:29,541
I have to say in in in and

654
00:24:29,541 --> 00:24:30,096
somewhere Regret.

655
00:24:30,969 --> 00:24:32,318
Of of the of the business,

656
00:24:32,953 --> 00:24:35,513
and Reverend Clinton expresses that beautifully. We'll talk

657
00:24:35,513 --> 00:24:36,952
more about him at the end, but we

658
00:24:36,952 --> 00:24:37,991
need to talk about it. Hit now.

659
00:24:39,029 --> 00:24:40,548
Ronan lincoln is the muse of the book.

660
00:24:41,107 --> 00:24:42,945
He'd been my barber for several years.

661
00:24:43,598 --> 00:24:46,012
And he converted his barber shop

662
00:24:46,548 --> 00:24:47,447
into a center

663
00:24:48,143 --> 00:24:50,296
of living memory. He had been part of

664
00:24:50,296 --> 00:24:52,544
the effort to des decelerate the city a

665
00:24:52,544 --> 00:24:54,560
dedicated much of his light afterwards

666
00:24:55,576 --> 00:24:56,954
to preserving the history

667
00:24:57,412 --> 00:25:00,226
of the local movement particularly of bloody Tuesday.

668
00:25:00,938 --> 00:25:03,650
So he converted his barber shop into a

669
00:25:03,650 --> 00:25:06,442
public museum. He preserved every picture he could

670
00:25:06,442 --> 00:25:09,972
find from the movement. He preserved every single

671
00:25:10,764 --> 00:25:12,998
document that he had. And he was sit

672
00:25:12,998 --> 00:25:14,993
in his barber chair and to the left

673
00:25:14,993 --> 00:25:16,509
of it was a copy of 1 of

674
00:25:16,509 --> 00:25:17,547
his poll tax receipts.

675
00:25:18,599 --> 00:25:19,720
And in case you miss it he blew

676
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,559
it up to a 2 by 3 foot

677
00:25:21,559 --> 00:25:23,000
host or and made look at it on

678
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:23,400
the mirror.

679
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,519
And his goal there was people can never

680
00:25:26,519 --> 00:25:27,400
forget what happened.

681
00:25:28,052 --> 00:25:29,961
He spent most of his adult life asking

682
00:25:29,961 --> 00:25:31,950
people to walk with him on this journey

683
00:25:31,950 --> 00:25:34,098
of remembrance and understanding.

684
00:25:35,305 --> 00:25:37,209
And during my haircut, he would often share

685
00:25:37,209 --> 00:25:39,509
this story. And then 1 time as I

686
00:25:39,509 --> 00:25:40,700
talk about the book I mentioned and while

687
00:25:40,858 --> 00:25:42,445
I might wanna write a book about this

688
00:25:42,445 --> 00:25:42,842
someday,

689
00:25:43,812 --> 00:25:45,009
And once he heard that,

690
00:25:45,567 --> 00:25:46,923
he would whisper every time I was with

691
00:25:46,923 --> 00:25:48,358
though, how's that book on? When's that book

692
00:25:48,358 --> 00:25:51,469
coming out. And it began a long friendship.

693
00:25:52,999 --> 00:25:56,096
But it also began the beginnings of what

694
00:25:56,096 --> 00:25:57,526
it took to write this book was to

695
00:25:57,526 --> 00:25:59,829
create a new archive. And he wouldn't share

696
00:25:59,829 --> 00:26:01,656
not only what he collected, but his friendships

697
00:26:01,656 --> 00:26:02,394
with people

698
00:26:02,784 --> 00:26:05,102
across the state. He would call people and

699
00:26:05,102 --> 00:26:07,020
ask me to meet with them. He would

700
00:26:07,020 --> 00:26:08,378
call people that he was was here, he

701
00:26:08,378 --> 00:26:10,077
would cut and ask him to bring documents

702
00:26:10,216 --> 00:26:11,495
to me to share them with me.

703
00:26:12,548 --> 00:26:14,942
But he was also the person that forced

704
00:26:14,942 --> 00:26:17,098
a different understanding of what this book could

705
00:26:17,098 --> 00:26:17,417
do.

706
00:26:18,295 --> 00:26:20,052
He was thrilled that someone would spend the

707
00:26:20,052 --> 00:26:21,901
time to write a narrative. But he wanted

708
00:26:21,901 --> 00:26:24,052
more than that. He wanted the story not

709
00:26:24,052 --> 00:26:24,871
to remain

710
00:26:25,646 --> 00:26:27,399
between the pages of the book, but to

711
00:26:27,399 --> 00:26:30,028
somehow influence how people live their life outside

712
00:26:30,028 --> 00:26:30,745
the barber shop.

713
00:26:31,636 --> 00:26:34,584
So together, we helped organize a civil rights

714
00:26:34,584 --> 00:26:37,155
trail guide here that pay testimony

715
00:26:37,531 --> 00:26:39,442
or witness to the movement locally.

716
00:26:40,254 --> 00:26:42,481
We helped to develop a black history class

717
00:26:42,481 --> 00:26:44,334
that was taught here in the city and

718
00:26:44,471 --> 00:26:45,187
across the county.

719
00:26:46,460 --> 00:26:48,392
And this is what he wanted. He wanted

720
00:26:48,449 --> 00:26:48,949
historians

721
00:26:49,659 --> 00:26:52,056
not to begin and end their days by

722
00:26:52,056 --> 00:26:54,534
looking at their pros? But can you take

723
00:26:54,534 --> 00:26:56,531
that internal outlook? Can you engage the public

724
00:26:56,531 --> 00:26:58,943
landscape? Can you engage the public pitch vacation

725
00:26:58,943 --> 00:26:59,443
community

726
00:26:59,820 --> 00:27:01,813
such that his story or what he would

727
00:27:01,813 --> 00:27:03,190
call his people story

728
00:27:03,647 --> 00:27:06,119
could be better known. The goal always for

729
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:07,450
him was not only to

730
00:27:07,886 --> 00:27:10,372
revealed history, but he really believed that by

731
00:27:10,507 --> 00:27:12,572
talking about the leadership that he and others

732
00:27:12,572 --> 00:27:12,890
embodied,

733
00:27:13,605 --> 00:27:15,431
people could live differently. They could live more

734
00:27:15,431 --> 00:27:16,567
humbly more honestly.

735
00:27:17,194 --> 00:27:19,028
And for him the story of the movement

736
00:27:19,028 --> 00:27:21,262
was the promise of a better south.

737
00:27:22,937 --> 00:27:24,692
The rem that himself was a key character,

738
00:27:24,851 --> 00:27:26,526
he was the 1 who was most often

739
00:27:26,526 --> 00:27:29,257
in close contact with Reverend King or attorney

740
00:27:29,337 --> 00:27:32,534
General Robert Kennedy constantly pho these individuals asking

741
00:27:32,534 --> 00:27:34,771
for help and keeping them abreast of the

742
00:27:34,771 --> 00:27:36,151
violence that they were experiencing.

743
00:27:36,862 --> 00:27:39,643
That was a critical piece because later during

744
00:27:39,643 --> 00:27:42,662
the movement, the federal government, itself becomes a

745
00:27:42,662 --> 00:27:43,400
key actor

746
00:27:43,950 --> 00:27:46,430
helping Tu loose in the late 19 64

747
00:27:46,430 --> 00:27:47,950
after the passage of the Civil Rights Act,

748
00:27:48,350 --> 00:27:49,869
helping to break the color line here in

749
00:27:49,869 --> 00:27:51,869
the city. The rubber Lint was a key

750
00:27:51,869 --> 00:27:52,990
person helping organize that.

751
00:27:54,921 --> 00:27:56,597
Let's move on to

752
00:27:56,996 --> 00:27:59,012
2 the 2 other characters

753
00:27:59,710 --> 00:28:01,226
that framed the beginning of the book.

754
00:28:02,279 --> 00:28:03,960
Robert Shelton, the K.

755
00:28:04,919 --> 00:28:06,119
As I was saying in my notes,

756
00:28:07,799 --> 00:28:10,039
I often see the twentieth century south through,

757
00:28:10,519 --> 00:28:11,019
literary

758
00:28:12,371 --> 00:28:15,157
lenses and through the novels I've read. And

759
00:28:15,157 --> 00:28:17,328
so I tend to always j

760
00:28:17,704 --> 00:28:19,216
the, say, the flannery o'connor,

761
00:28:20,663 --> 00:28:21,458
bent over,

762
00:28:22,968 --> 00:28:23,786
God haunted

763
00:28:24,637 --> 00:28:25,591
hell bound people,

764
00:28:26,943 --> 00:28:27,443
in

765
00:28:27,993 --> 00:28:28,892
worst of circumstances

766
00:28:29,269 --> 00:28:30,407
with sort of the

767
00:28:31,183 --> 00:28:33,417
Sa Walker Percy South. Mh.

768
00:28:34,214 --> 00:28:35,432
Which is golf courses

769
00:28:35,809 --> 00:28:38,240
and Buick dealerships. And

770
00:28:38,940 --> 00:28:41,579
rented former slave quarters for people looking for

771
00:28:41,579 --> 00:28:43,179
a weekend retreat from New Orleans.

772
00:28:44,059 --> 00:28:45,200
And and

773
00:28:47,351 --> 00:28:47,851
yet

774
00:28:48,627 --> 00:28:51,818
Shelton combines those 2 seemingly different sounds.

775
00:28:53,253 --> 00:28:56,067
We've got this very odd looking

776
00:28:57,332 --> 00:28:59,160
white filler. I mean, he looks like a

777
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,067
k with even without his hood.

778
00:29:02,418 --> 00:29:03,928
He looks like a stereotype, it but, he

779
00:29:03,928 --> 00:29:06,489
looks like a an extra from Mississippi burning,

780
00:29:07,445 --> 00:29:09,517
he looks like he looks like the dream

781
00:29:09,517 --> 00:29:12,544
of a good white per... Northern progressive of

782
00:29:12,544 --> 00:29:13,978
what all southern are like.

783
00:29:15,826 --> 00:29:18,059
Yeah, at the same time, Walker Percy would

784
00:29:18,059 --> 00:29:20,212
love this. He's a salesman for B f

785
00:29:20,292 --> 00:29:20,690
Good rich.

786
00:29:22,285 --> 00:29:23,742
He's he works for

787
00:29:24,292 --> 00:29:26,598
a yankee rubber products manufacturer.

788
00:29:28,428 --> 00:29:30,972
Could we talk about that his background? And

789
00:29:30,972 --> 00:29:33,063
am I right in that he has radical

790
00:29:33,278 --> 00:29:35,450
by being in military during integration. I mean,

791
00:29:35,690 --> 00:29:36,970
everyone gets radical by something.

792
00:29:38,570 --> 00:29:38,809
Yeah.

793
00:29:40,009 --> 00:29:41,289
Robert Shelton grew up

794
00:29:41,849 --> 00:29:42,809
in in this area.

795
00:29:43,384 --> 00:29:43,884
And

796
00:29:44,821 --> 00:29:46,278
he joined the military

797
00:29:46,736 --> 00:29:47,614
instead of going to college.

798
00:29:48,413 --> 00:29:50,807
And there, he came the terms or came

799
00:29:50,807 --> 00:29:52,972
face to face with the prospect of what

800
00:29:52,972 --> 00:29:55,856
an integrated america could look like. He saw

801
00:29:56,230 --> 00:29:58,772
blacks having very similar privileges to white soldiers.

802
00:29:59,423 --> 00:30:00,613
And when he came home,

803
00:30:01,090 --> 00:30:03,867
it completely shook his understanding of the world.

804
00:30:04,502 --> 00:30:06,169
He grown up in a place where the

805
00:30:06,169 --> 00:30:08,415
call line was strictly enforced, and the clan

806
00:30:08,415 --> 00:30:10,649
would make sure the blacks and whites queue

807
00:30:10,649 --> 00:30:11,128
that line.

808
00:30:12,724 --> 00:30:14,974
So when he came home, he he followed

809
00:30:14,974 --> 00:30:17,315
his grandfather and his father and began to

810
00:30:17,534 --> 00:30:19,534
study clan doctor and there he found his

811
00:30:19,534 --> 00:30:20,034
calling

812
00:30:20,335 --> 00:30:22,034
that he would become a leader

813
00:30:22,349 --> 00:30:24,583
to reinforce what he had learned as a

814
00:30:24,583 --> 00:30:26,040
young man, which is simply that

815
00:30:26,817 --> 00:30:28,971
segregation problem salvation for white people.

816
00:30:30,495 --> 00:30:31,843
And then he would spend much of his

817
00:30:31,843 --> 00:30:34,933
life attempting to make the raw violence of

818
00:30:34,933 --> 00:30:36,305
a plan respectable.

819
00:30:37,169 --> 00:30:39,003
So he would wear a 3 piece to

820
00:30:39,003 --> 00:30:41,555
work. He would wear a tie and slip

821
00:30:41,555 --> 00:30:43,788
back his hair where a sign ring. But

822
00:30:43,788 --> 00:30:46,123
at the very same time he's quarterback

823
00:30:46,993 --> 00:30:50,015
local and national efforts to beat back the

824
00:30:50,015 --> 00:30:51,048
civil rights movement.

825
00:30:51,605 --> 00:30:53,116
So it represents a moment in the history

826
00:30:53,116 --> 00:30:56,479
of white supremacy where you have the brutality

827
00:30:56,789 --> 00:30:59,604
a violent life resistance being cloth

828
00:31:00,221 --> 00:31:02,535
in the outfits and the and the fancy

829
00:31:02,535 --> 00:31:03,035
cars

830
00:31:03,573 --> 00:31:04,530
of a bank president.

831
00:31:05,343 --> 00:31:06,561
And not surprisingly,

832
00:31:07,815 --> 00:31:09,809
Shelton took up office in the most prestigious

833
00:31:09,809 --> 00:31:10,309
building

834
00:31:11,325 --> 00:31:13,956
west of of Birmingham, this the small skyscraper

835
00:31:13,956 --> 00:31:14,456
scraper

836
00:31:14,769 --> 00:31:15,587
here in Tu

837
00:31:16,124 --> 00:31:18,276
to from his 4 floors through room sweet

838
00:31:18,276 --> 00:31:19,892
would organize his plans

839
00:31:20,268 --> 00:31:22,283
and would meet sick offense and journalists

840
00:31:22,914 --> 00:31:25,624
Regal them with stories of, you know, the

841
00:31:25,624 --> 00:31:27,856
plans promise for America, which was to restore

842
00:31:27,856 --> 00:31:29,711
goodness and to restore purity

843
00:31:30,088 --> 00:31:30,885
among the races.

844
00:31:32,253 --> 00:31:34,185
So many ways it seems a chilling figure

845
00:31:34,322 --> 00:31:35,935
because he attempted to grade

846
00:31:36,708 --> 00:31:37,685
along legacy

847
00:31:38,554 --> 00:31:39,054
of

848
00:31:39,673 --> 00:31:40,812
segregation and its violence

849
00:31:41,510 --> 00:31:42,010
with,

850
00:31:42,869 --> 00:31:45,346
you, with the the the the suited business

851
00:31:45,346 --> 00:31:45,745
person,

852
00:31:46,319 --> 00:31:47,593
and to try to give a clan a

853
00:31:47,593 --> 00:31:49,686
new image. In the end he wasn't successful

854
00:31:49,903 --> 00:31:52,156
because he was unable to b

855
00:31:53,010 --> 00:31:54,625
his love and lust for violence.

856
00:31:55,733 --> 00:31:57,968
But for much of his career as the

857
00:31:57,968 --> 00:31:59,483
head of the clan and National has the

858
00:31:59,483 --> 00:31:59,723
clan,

859
00:32:00,521 --> 00:32:03,090
He was portrayed as the future of a

860
00:32:03,090 --> 00:32:06,130
violent white resistance, which was occurring within the

861
00:32:06,130 --> 00:32:08,210
the costume of a bank president.

862
00:32:09,730 --> 00:32:10,230
Is

863
00:32:10,864 --> 00:32:11,523
is it

864
00:32:12,858 --> 00:32:14,076
my perception accurate

865
00:32:15,650 --> 00:32:17,245
that the clan and,

866
00:32:18,042 --> 00:32:18,361
white?

867
00:32:21,808 --> 00:32:24,845
Attempts to, white attempts to maintain white supremacy

868
00:32:24,845 --> 00:32:25,585
we're splinter

869
00:32:25,964 --> 00:32:28,521
by even by 19 60, let alone, but

870
00:32:28,521 --> 00:32:29,640
certainly by 19 64,

871
00:32:30,054 --> 00:32:32,204
I mean, the White citizens councils, they all

872
00:32:32,204 --> 00:32:33,559
look the same to us now,

873
00:32:34,674 --> 00:32:36,984
but that it... But from a historians point

874
00:32:36,984 --> 00:32:38,577
of view, that would be a, I think,

875
00:32:39,389 --> 00:32:41,215
a big error to see him as the

876
00:32:41,215 --> 00:32:43,438
same. What they indicate to me is weakness,

877
00:32:44,788 --> 00:32:47,885
is that the the movement becomes stronger while

878
00:32:47,885 --> 00:32:48,654
the white

879
00:32:49,094 --> 00:32:51,571
supremacy becomes weaker in multiple ways. We'll talk

880
00:32:51,571 --> 00:32:53,728
about some more... When we talk about way

881
00:32:53,728 --> 00:32:54,128
mer.

882
00:32:55,726 --> 00:32:56,785
Yeah. So

883
00:32:57,339 --> 00:32:57,839
Sheldon

884
00:32:58,378 --> 00:32:59,357
fails to recognize

885
00:32:59,737 --> 00:33:02,134
changes in the political landscape within white supremacy.

886
00:33:03,093 --> 00:33:04,851
Because shortly after a brown decision you have

887
00:33:04,851 --> 00:33:06,944
the growth of the white citizens movement which

888
00:33:06,944 --> 00:33:09,599
is basically country club segregation is

889
00:33:09,977 --> 00:33:11,115
who want to use

890
00:33:11,573 --> 00:33:12,871
education and the law

891
00:33:13,329 --> 00:33:14,388
to maintain

892
00:33:14,766 --> 00:33:15,005
segregation.

893
00:33:15,659 --> 00:33:17,835
And they're growing lea of

894
00:33:18,293 --> 00:33:19,650
wild acts of violence,

895
00:33:20,449 --> 00:33:22,146
the cross burning or

896
00:33:22,684 --> 00:33:24,461
the assassination or

897
00:33:25,014 --> 00:33:26,052
the severe beating.

898
00:33:27,249 --> 00:33:29,506
Sheldon as he comes to power, he believes

899
00:33:29,884 --> 00:33:32,279
that particularly in the aftermath of a violence

900
00:33:32,279 --> 00:33:33,955
business upon freedom arrives.

901
00:33:34,609 --> 00:33:36,224
Know, those young black and white

902
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,787
individuals who crossed the south particularly Alabama on

903
00:33:39,787 --> 00:33:42,097
buses and and we integrate them and we're

904
00:33:42,097 --> 00:33:44,744
and are visited with enormous violence. Thinks that

905
00:33:44,744 --> 00:33:45,384
be tokens,

906
00:33:46,024 --> 00:33:47,865
his understanding of violence, which is that it

907
00:33:47,865 --> 00:33:48,184
works.

908
00:33:48,825 --> 00:33:51,464
It's it's it's supported wiley by the public.

909
00:33:52,197 --> 00:33:54,893
He misses tragically in some ways as as

910
00:33:54,893 --> 00:33:55,551
a leader

911
00:33:56,002 --> 00:33:58,460
that that's growing out of favor. Many of

912
00:33:58,460 --> 00:34:00,863
the most powerful lives believe in segregation, but

913
00:34:00,863 --> 00:34:03,101
not the violence of segregation that he does.

914
00:34:04,459 --> 00:34:07,276
Also his his sort of blind

915
00:34:07,655 --> 00:34:09,927
devotion 2 using this sword

916
00:34:10,385 --> 00:34:12,162
to maintain his power

917
00:34:12,540 --> 00:34:14,456
makes it difficult to see the ways that

918
00:34:14,456 --> 00:34:18,222
blacks themselves are... Not integrating but organizing pairing

919
00:34:18,222 --> 00:34:21,267
for strikes. So he misses the organizational efforts

920
00:34:21,562 --> 00:34:22,460
his own backyard.

921
00:34:23,153 --> 00:34:25,141
And that's in part why Tu have become

922
00:34:25,141 --> 00:34:27,784
so violent because he he's see sonny recognized

923
00:34:27,784 --> 00:34:28,979
that his own hometown,

924
00:34:29,617 --> 00:34:31,392
Lax of marshal enormous

925
00:34:32,327 --> 00:34:34,731
resources to break the cup line. So he

926
00:34:34,731 --> 00:34:36,720
brings to bear all the power he can

927
00:34:36,720 --> 00:34:38,493
to try to stop that, including,

928
00:34:38,948 --> 00:34:41,733
you know, basically ruining the most powerful black

929
00:34:41,733 --> 00:34:42,926
church in West Alabama.

930
00:34:43,739 --> 00:34:45,980
We... I mean, we should say that Shelton

931
00:34:45,980 --> 00:34:47,599
has been is the 1

932
00:34:48,139 --> 00:34:48,880
almost ind

933
00:34:49,179 --> 00:34:51,179
as a question if historic if not legal

934
00:34:51,179 --> 00:34:51,500
fact.

935
00:34:51,994 --> 00:34:54,405
Who's organized the bombing campaign in Birmingham

936
00:34:55,020 --> 00:34:57,329
and the acts of of terrorism that have

937
00:34:57,329 --> 00:35:00,197
been rocking Birmingham in the previous years.

938
00:35:00,929 --> 00:35:03,885
He's in Tu but he's orchestrating events throughout

939
00:35:04,285 --> 00:35:06,842
Alabama and the south or in inc them

940
00:35:06,842 --> 00:35:08,280
encouraging them supporting them.

941
00:35:08,934 --> 00:35:11,349
So for him then to see suddenly turn

942
00:35:11,487 --> 00:35:13,882
see that just a few blocks from him,

943
00:35:14,201 --> 00:35:16,755
his office is right near the new courthouse.

944
00:35:17,010 --> 00:35:18,769
And to see that that new courthouse is

945
00:35:18,769 --> 00:35:21,089
now the center of a of a a

946
00:35:21,089 --> 00:35:23,969
movement. Silver rights movement in his hometown, it

947
00:35:23,969 --> 00:35:26,924
is it it rocks his world and and

948
00:35:26,924 --> 00:35:29,223
in all senses of of the phrase.

949
00:35:30,411 --> 00:35:32,829
That's right. It's it's difficult to imagine any

950
00:35:32,884 --> 00:35:34,891
large act violent white resistance

951
00:35:35,264 --> 00:35:38,280
in their early 60 without imagining Robert Sheldon

952
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:38,994
being part of it.

953
00:35:39,643 --> 00:35:41,471
If not leading it then certainly lending is

954
00:35:41,471 --> 00:35:42,344
a scent to it.

955
00:35:44,569 --> 00:35:47,270
He's the most powerful white supremacy in the

956
00:35:47,270 --> 00:35:47,508
country.

957
00:35:48,238 --> 00:35:48,738
In

958
00:35:49,113 --> 00:35:50,226
the mid 19 sixties.

959
00:35:50,703 --> 00:35:52,930
Now, eventually, he falls from office, but at

960
00:35:52,930 --> 00:35:54,066
the time of

961
00:35:54,679 --> 00:35:56,429
Civil rights Act or the voting rights back,

962
00:35:56,668 --> 00:35:57,963
he's the individual

963
00:35:58,513 --> 00:36:01,145
that the Fbi is most worried about. And

964
00:36:01,145 --> 00:36:02,203
he leads he's in Tu.

965
00:36:02,740 --> 00:36:04,437
And he's he's he's he's

966
00:36:04,894 --> 00:36:07,388
staring eyeball on eyeball with rev y Rogers

967
00:36:07,446 --> 00:36:07,946
over

968
00:36:08,258 --> 00:36:10,166
whether that his home hometown will become integrator

969
00:36:10,166 --> 00:36:10,484
or not?

970
00:36:11,676 --> 00:36:13,505
Well, let's get to the third person of

971
00:36:13,505 --> 00:36:16,048
this str william mer who is it may

972
00:36:16,048 --> 00:36:17,082
raise the least interesting.

973
00:36:18,448 --> 00:36:20,356
And I noticed you have a hard time

974
00:36:20,356 --> 00:36:21,707
figure out in a way.

975
00:36:22,422 --> 00:36:24,409
It's hard to figure out what william mer

976
00:36:24,409 --> 00:36:25,999
wants. I mean, here is a man who

977
00:36:25,999 --> 00:36:26,690
does in an

978
00:36:27,206 --> 00:36:29,905
unleash this violence that suppress the movement for

979
00:36:29,905 --> 00:36:30,302
a month.

980
00:36:30,937 --> 00:36:32,525
And, yeah, he seems like such a blob

981
00:36:32,525 --> 00:36:34,374
of jello to nail against a tree

982
00:36:35,240 --> 00:36:37,071
he likes Elvis. Okay. Great.

983
00:36:37,787 --> 00:36:38,742
Who doesn't like Elvis.

984
00:36:40,254 --> 00:36:40,970
But he

985
00:36:42,260 --> 00:36:43,619
he seems to be a sort of a

986
00:36:43,619 --> 00:36:45,300
don't rock the boat segregation.

987
00:36:45,780 --> 00:36:46,280
But

988
00:36:46,820 --> 00:36:47,859
comparing him to bull connor,

989
00:36:49,059 --> 00:36:50,679
Jeez I never thought of anything

990
00:36:51,152 --> 00:36:52,739
positive to say about Bo connor, but Bo

991
00:36:52,739 --> 00:36:54,484
congress is the courage of his convictions. Does

992
00:36:54,563 --> 00:36:56,492
William Am? I'm not certain

993
00:36:56,864 --> 00:36:57,840
if he is

994
00:36:58,707 --> 00:37:00,538
he's he doesn't seem, you know, it's like,

995
00:37:00,698 --> 00:37:01,494
I know Bulk connor.

996
00:37:02,211 --> 00:37:03,644
William Mer no bulk connor.

997
00:37:05,715 --> 00:37:06,351
And yet,

998
00:37:07,484 --> 00:37:09,644
he does unleash the violence of Bloody Tuesday.

999
00:37:09,804 --> 00:37:12,444
So I I... I'm left away of all

1000
00:37:12,444 --> 00:37:14,045
the people in the book that I don't

1001
00:37:14,045 --> 00:37:14,764
really get.

1002
00:37:15,655 --> 00:37:17,640
As a psychological portrait, which is, you know

1003
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,339
okay. It's not history. As a bio portrait.

1004
00:37:21,768 --> 00:37:22,641
I don't get mer.

1005
00:37:23,692 --> 00:37:25,705
What's more important to me is the way

1006
00:37:25,762 --> 00:37:28,869
is you've alluded to that local governments can

1007
00:37:28,869 --> 00:37:31,817
create... It's not just states who create regimes.

1008
00:37:32,056 --> 00:37:34,809
It's local governments with states can create

1009
00:37:35,110 --> 00:37:35,610
insane

1010
00:37:36,230 --> 00:37:39,670
regimes of local control and scrutiny and mer

1011
00:37:39,670 --> 00:37:41,030
is the representative of that.

1012
00:37:42,244 --> 00:37:42,883
I think you're right.

1013
00:37:44,240 --> 00:37:45,916
Chief Mari is not a bull Connor in

1014
00:37:45,916 --> 00:37:48,311
the sense that he's seeking his spotlight. Is

1015
00:37:48,311 --> 00:37:49,210
when we come

1016
00:37:49,588 --> 00:37:50,726
a very public

1017
00:37:51,119 --> 00:37:52,870
or elected official for that matter.

1018
00:37:53,666 --> 00:37:56,293
But Mari learned from Bull connor. He went

1019
00:37:56,293 --> 00:37:57,031
to Birmingham,

1020
00:37:57,725 --> 00:38:00,215
a when bull Connor attempted to

1021
00:38:01,563 --> 00:38:04,041
defeat Reverend king in the spring of 19

1022
00:38:04,041 --> 00:38:05,340
63 and

1023
00:38:06,118 --> 00:38:09,095
Mari took notes. And he saw what worked

1024
00:38:09,409 --> 00:38:11,318
you saw that the use of dogs and

1025
00:38:11,318 --> 00:38:12,909
water hoses on young young people.

1026
00:38:14,499 --> 00:38:17,067
But what mer represents I think is

1027
00:38:18,334 --> 00:38:18,834
the

1028
00:38:19,372 --> 00:38:20,591
unacceptable nature

1029
00:38:20,970 --> 00:38:21,769
of violence,

1030
00:38:22,248 --> 00:38:24,426
by which I mean, he was comfortable

1031
00:38:25,456 --> 00:38:25,956
escalating

1032
00:38:26,411 --> 00:38:28,639
violent white resistance. He just didn't want to

1033
00:38:28,639 --> 00:38:29,377
become public

1034
00:38:29,831 --> 00:38:30,150
record.

1035
00:38:30,865 --> 00:38:33,661
So in many ways, he's that police chief

1036
00:38:33,661 --> 00:38:34,319
that is

1037
00:38:34,771 --> 00:38:35,644
terribly happy,

1038
00:38:36,278 --> 00:38:38,976
prose a regime of racial terror for generations.

1039
00:38:39,214 --> 00:38:40,739
He just doesn't want people to get said

1040
00:38:40,739 --> 00:38:42,574
about. He doesn't want draw attention to it.

1041
00:38:43,292 --> 00:38:45,309
Yeah. In such as his confidence

1042
00:38:45,926 --> 00:38:48,814
that he's able to manufacture this you know,

1043
00:38:48,894 --> 00:38:50,253
this siege of a black church,

1044
00:38:50,891 --> 00:38:52,730
which is as violent as any during the

1045
00:38:52,730 --> 00:38:53,768
civil rights movement.

1046
00:38:55,047 --> 00:38:56,246
He does it in a way that he's

1047
00:38:56,246 --> 00:38:58,498
then later surprised that people are paying attention

1048
00:38:58,498 --> 00:39:00,336
to them. Must have said, well, this is

1049
00:39:00,336 --> 00:39:01,295
this is how it works in the cell.

1050
00:39:01,455 --> 00:39:02,994
You know, for generations, we've

1051
00:39:03,453 --> 00:39:06,510
controlled and restrained how black actors

1052
00:39:06,903 --> 00:39:09,204
can lead their lives. This is our effort

1053
00:39:09,204 --> 00:39:11,266
is simply to to red withdraw that boundary

1054
00:39:11,266 --> 00:39:12,853
in a way that works as it has

1055
00:39:12,853 --> 00:39:13,964
historically for generations.

1056
00:39:15,407 --> 00:39:17,073
Mari in some which is the most chilling

1057
00:39:17,073 --> 00:39:18,739
character in the book because he's the 1

1058
00:39:18,739 --> 00:39:21,911
that that that that is least affected by

1059
00:39:21,911 --> 00:39:22,942
public perceptions.

1060
00:39:23,514 --> 00:39:26,551
Or least interested in public power. He simply

1061
00:39:26,551 --> 00:39:28,789
wants to maintain the south quietly as that

1062
00:39:28,789 --> 00:39:31,826
there's always been. And he has the resources

1063
00:39:31,826 --> 00:39:34,099
to do so whether it through

1064
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,039
a city or county commission that is just

1065
00:39:37,039 --> 00:39:38,579
throwing money at him

1066
00:39:39,039 --> 00:39:41,619
to limit black protests and black radical.

1067
00:39:42,652 --> 00:39:45,201
So many ways, I think he represents sudden

1068
00:39:45,201 --> 00:39:46,019
law enforcement.

1069
00:39:46,714 --> 00:39:48,626
So often we focus on the Bull connor

1070
00:39:48,626 --> 00:39:50,617
the Jim Clark who bose who seek the

1071
00:39:50,617 --> 00:39:51,117
media

1072
00:39:51,429 --> 00:39:53,340
and seek the spotlight to draw attention to

1073
00:39:53,340 --> 00:39:55,275
how they prosecute black radicals.

1074
00:39:56,368 --> 00:39:58,142
M prosecute black radicals

1075
00:39:58,534 --> 00:40:01,195
as violent those 2 individuals. He just doesn't

1076
00:40:01,255 --> 00:40:04,934
want the newspapers trailing him. There's something chilling

1077
00:40:04,934 --> 00:40:06,775
about that. This is this sort of the

1078
00:40:06,775 --> 00:40:09,974
unacceptable nature a police leadership. Let me be

1079
00:40:09,974 --> 00:40:11,802
as violent as I can, let me keep

1080
00:40:11,802 --> 00:40:12,834
it out of the papers,

1081
00:40:13,390 --> 00:40:15,082
and this will be the way that we'll

1082
00:40:15,217 --> 00:40:15,717
advance

1083
00:40:16,171 --> 00:40:17,442
Tu going forward.

1084
00:40:18,014 --> 00:40:19,869
And I guess, part of this is also

1085
00:40:19,928 --> 00:40:20,428
he's

1086
00:40:21,523 --> 00:40:23,517
he's he's he's a reader of Max Weber.

1087
00:40:23,757 --> 00:40:25,671
He wants to keep the means of violence

1088
00:40:25,671 --> 00:40:28,077
in his hands not into Robert Shelton. So

1089
00:40:28,237 --> 00:40:30,248
I guess that's he'll he'll d

1090
00:40:30,623 --> 00:40:33,327
Robert Shelton, but it's... I I would... He's

1091
00:40:33,327 --> 00:40:33,646
not a.

1092
00:40:35,015 --> 00:40:36,454
Is he a clan member? I mean, what

1093
00:40:36,454 --> 00:40:38,614
is... What are these connections to Shelton What

1094
00:40:38,614 --> 00:40:40,855
connect... I, there are plenty of clan people

1095
00:40:40,855 --> 00:40:43,500
around the church? Believe Tuesday? But I just

1096
00:40:43,500 --> 00:40:45,563
don't get the vibe that from the book,

1097
00:40:45,722 --> 00:40:47,332
you don't say explicitly

1098
00:40:47,784 --> 00:40:50,585
that he has any interest in

1099
00:40:50,974 --> 00:40:53,125
sort of the shelton approach. I think he

1100
00:40:53,125 --> 00:40:54,957
wants to keep violence to... He wants to

1101
00:40:54,957 --> 00:40:55,993
be the 1 who uses violence.

1102
00:40:57,268 --> 00:40:59,737
Ideological, he shares the k goals of using

1103
00:40:59,737 --> 00:41:01,049
violence to main pain

1104
00:41:01,663 --> 00:41:04,369
segregation, but he missed mistrust anyone on and

1105
00:41:04,369 --> 00:41:06,120
himself to prosecute that violence.

1106
00:41:06,996 --> 00:41:09,963
But he's also presiding over a police force

1107
00:41:10,512 --> 00:41:12,893
that is infected with K man. I give

1108
00:41:12,893 --> 00:41:14,956
you people who talked about riding with police

1109
00:41:14,956 --> 00:41:16,067
officers, journalists.

1110
00:41:16,860 --> 00:41:17,360
And

1111
00:41:17,829 --> 00:41:19,269
they they couldn't believe that. They'd be on

1112
00:41:19,269 --> 00:41:21,510
a ride out, and the police officer would

1113
00:41:21,510 --> 00:41:23,750
check his watch. Realized he's running late. He

1114
00:41:23,750 --> 00:41:25,670
pull into a clan meeting, go to his

1115
00:41:25,670 --> 00:41:27,525
trunk put on his robe, go to the

1116
00:41:27,525 --> 00:41:29,525
meeting, come out an hour later, but the

1117
00:41:29,525 --> 00:41:31,364
road back into the trunk and... Resume his

1118
00:41:31,364 --> 00:41:31,605
patrols.

1119
00:41:32,324 --> 00:41:34,344
This was the easy boundaries

1120
00:41:34,659 --> 00:41:36,420
between the clan and the and the police.

1121
00:41:36,980 --> 00:41:37,780
And in many ways,

1122
00:41:38,579 --> 00:41:41,139
chief Mari recognized that he shared those goals.

1123
00:41:41,380 --> 00:41:43,239
He just didn't want to share the power

1124
00:41:43,713 --> 00:41:44,610
of leading

1125
00:41:44,985 --> 00:41:47,687
the assault against black radical, black activism.

1126
00:41:49,277 --> 00:41:51,159
So let's go to the events

1127
00:41:51,518 --> 00:41:51,996
briefly,

1128
00:41:52,635 --> 00:41:55,346
as we said, Rod... T y Rogers is

1129
00:41:55,346 --> 00:41:57,817
installed at first African Baptist in March,

1130
00:41:59,013 --> 00:41:59,992
Martin luther a King

1131
00:42:00,384 --> 00:42:01,679
preach his

1132
00:42:02,054 --> 00:42:03,327
installation, ceremony.

1133
00:42:04,202 --> 00:42:06,270
And then things move very quickly.

1134
00:42:06,986 --> 00:42:09,548
So briefly, how do we get what are

1135
00:42:09,548 --> 00:42:11,384
the the lead up the preparation of the

1136
00:42:11,384 --> 00:42:13,219
ground for bloody for Bloody Tuesday?

1137
00:42:14,416 --> 00:42:16,911
So reverend king comes to Tu loo, March

1138
00:42:17,064 --> 00:42:19,230
of 63 installs Reverend Rogers

1139
00:42:19,841 --> 00:42:21,031
and 1 64.

1140
00:42:21,428 --> 00:42:23,332
I'm sorry. He comes to he comes to

1141
00:42:23,411 --> 00:42:23,570
Tu.

1142
00:42:24,458 --> 00:42:26,309
In March of 19 64

1143
00:42:26,445 --> 00:42:29,171
and installs his lieutenant, rev t y Rogers

1144
00:42:29,626 --> 00:42:31,772
and annoy him as the movements leader.

1145
00:42:32,422 --> 00:42:33,852
Over the course of the next 3 months,

1146
00:42:34,090 --> 00:42:36,099
Reverend King throws everything he has

1147
00:42:36,552 --> 00:42:38,616
to in support of of rev rod and

1148
00:42:38,616 --> 00:42:39,331
local movement.

1149
00:42:39,966 --> 00:42:41,340
Every major leader

1150
00:42:41,728 --> 00:42:43,900
that works the reverend king comes the Tu.

1151
00:42:44,754 --> 00:42:47,222
Whether it be, as I mentioned earlier, Ct

1152
00:42:47,222 --> 00:42:49,292
vivian or Jesse Jackson,

1153
00:42:49,943 --> 00:42:53,119
Ralph Pa, andrew Young. They're here to provide

1154
00:42:53,119 --> 00:42:56,056
support and leadership and energy. And over the

1155
00:42:56,056 --> 00:42:58,779
3 months between March and June of 64

1156
00:42:59,088 --> 00:43:01,952
the local community is organizing. Their numbers are

1157
00:43:01,952 --> 00:43:03,168
growing, their protests

1158
00:43:03,861 --> 00:43:05,532
against segregated stores.

1159
00:43:06,104 --> 00:43:08,657
Are are getting more complicated and and and

1160
00:43:08,657 --> 00:43:12,327
and more lively. They're marching across Greens Avenue,

1161
00:43:12,486 --> 00:43:14,820
which is the commercial quarter that that runs

1162
00:43:14,820 --> 00:43:16,340
through the saves. Also the color line.

1163
00:43:17,380 --> 00:43:19,539
And they're marching up and down with signs

1164
00:43:19,539 --> 00:43:20,039
demanding

1165
00:43:20,340 --> 00:43:21,160
equal rights

1166
00:43:22,112 --> 00:43:24,267
Alongside of this is a gradual rise and

1167
00:43:24,267 --> 00:43:25,305
violent white resistance.

1168
00:43:26,183 --> 00:43:27,082
These black

1169
00:43:27,619 --> 00:43:29,455
protesters are being shot with pe guns.

1170
00:43:30,029 --> 00:43:32,746
They're being doused with acid, but would then

1171
00:43:32,746 --> 00:43:34,584
called mustard oil, but it was a type

1172
00:43:34,584 --> 00:43:37,221
of solution that would burn this skin and

1173
00:43:37,221 --> 00:43:38,260
tear off epidermis.

1174
00:43:39,631 --> 00:43:42,684
There also night raids, people were being beaten

1175
00:43:42,822 --> 00:43:44,177
returning from church meetings.

1176
00:43:44,816 --> 00:43:47,847
And so you see this gradual rising attention

1177
00:43:47,847 --> 00:43:51,120
so that question is only when would these

1178
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,185
2 parties come into conflict in a in

1179
00:43:53,185 --> 00:43:54,297
a powerful way,

1180
00:43:54,932 --> 00:43:55,750
black activists

1181
00:43:56,123 --> 00:43:57,473
with violent white resistance?

1182
00:43:58,124 --> 00:44:00,438
And finally on 06/09/1964,

1183
00:44:00,598 --> 00:44:03,630
that's the day. Rev rogers organizers the what

1184
00:44:03,630 --> 00:44:05,327
would be the largest protest

1185
00:44:05,878 --> 00:44:07,230
the city and that part the say they

1186
00:44:07,230 --> 00:44:07,787
ever seen,

1187
00:44:08,423 --> 00:44:10,651
over 500 people marching from the church,

1188
00:44:11,287 --> 00:44:12,972
a roughly a half a mile to courthouse

1189
00:44:12,972 --> 00:44:14,086
house and their protest,

1190
00:44:14,881 --> 00:44:15,835
separate facilities.

1191
00:44:16,710 --> 00:44:17,505
They never make it.

1192
00:44:18,459 --> 00:44:20,447
So how... What happens on that day? I

1193
00:44:20,447 --> 00:44:23,087
mean, how does it... The the whole everything's

1194
00:44:23,087 --> 00:44:24,121
been laid for it.

1195
00:44:25,315 --> 00:44:26,769
And then they

1196
00:44:27,224 --> 00:44:29,713
decide that they will gather in the church

1197
00:44:30,103 --> 00:44:32,728
first before making the March and what's what's

1198
00:44:32,728 --> 00:44:35,193
the plan? What's the what's the... What what

1199
00:44:35,193 --> 00:44:36,148
are they hoping to do?

1200
00:44:39,347 --> 00:44:41,979
So black demonstrators gathered at first African baptist

1201
00:44:41,979 --> 00:44:43,813
early in the morning of of June 9.

1202
00:44:44,531 --> 00:44:46,844
And there they pray and they plan and

1203
00:44:46,844 --> 00:44:48,222
they imagine themselves

1204
00:44:48,772 --> 00:44:51,316
finally walking from their church to the north...

1205
00:44:51,555 --> 00:44:52,532
To the new courthouse

1206
00:44:52,906 --> 00:44:53,463
integrated then,

1207
00:44:54,337 --> 00:44:56,881
but they also know that almost certainly there

1208
00:44:56,881 --> 00:44:57,517
will be violence.

1209
00:44:58,088 --> 00:44:59,757
Because as they were coming to the church,

1210
00:45:00,632 --> 00:45:01,450
they saw

1211
00:45:01,824 --> 00:45:02,563
police officers,

1212
00:45:03,017 --> 00:45:03,812
sheriff's deputies,

1213
00:45:04,527 --> 00:45:05,005
k,

1214
00:45:05,561 --> 00:45:06,992
d white citizens.

1215
00:45:07,723 --> 00:45:08,521
Gain warden,

1216
00:45:09,159 --> 00:45:11,573
police officers from the from around the area

1217
00:45:11,791 --> 00:45:15,141
who called in on a local aid mutual

1218
00:45:15,141 --> 00:45:17,135
aid pack to prevent this march.

1219
00:45:18,106 --> 00:45:21,074
And as these individuals prayed, the police presence

1220
00:45:21,210 --> 00:45:21,528
grew.

1221
00:45:22,484 --> 00:45:25,031
And if people outside began a cat call,

1222
00:45:25,524 --> 00:45:28,240
and and and dare the black protesters to

1223
00:45:28,240 --> 00:45:28,560
come out.

1224
00:45:29,519 --> 00:45:31,996
When they did come out, the police very

1225
00:45:31,996 --> 00:45:32,496
quickly

1226
00:45:33,048 --> 00:45:35,433
put into police cruisers, the 5 main leaders,

1227
00:45:35,671 --> 00:45:36,704
including Reverend Rogers.

1228
00:45:37,340 --> 00:45:39,089
They put them in police cruisers right side

1229
00:45:39,089 --> 00:45:41,155
the church so they could watch what came

1230
00:45:41,155 --> 00:45:41,473
next.

1231
00:45:42,364 --> 00:45:44,445
And what came next was as bloody a

1232
00:45:44,445 --> 00:45:46,284
day as a movement has ever seen.

1233
00:45:47,244 --> 00:45:48,864
Police officers very quickly

1234
00:45:49,657 --> 00:45:51,964
mow down protesters as they sat on the

1235
00:45:51,964 --> 00:45:53,317
steps sit in the steps of the church.

1236
00:45:53,794 --> 00:45:55,385
They forced them back into the church.

1237
00:45:56,101 --> 00:45:57,534
And then they move to the side of

1238
00:45:57,534 --> 00:46:00,174
the church and blew out the windows with

1239
00:46:00,174 --> 00:46:02,401
a fire hose, and then filled the church

1240
00:46:02,401 --> 00:46:04,469
with hundreds of canisters of tear gas.

1241
00:46:05,599 --> 00:46:07,513
Very soon thereafter after blacks ran out of

1242
00:46:07,513 --> 00:46:09,449
the church, disorganized soaked

1243
00:46:09,906 --> 00:46:12,777
screaming, and then police again visited upon them

1244
00:46:12,777 --> 00:46:13,277
with

1245
00:46:13,734 --> 00:46:14,532
ax handles.

1246
00:46:15,504 --> 00:46:18,213
With Billy Clubs with cal prod, with the

1247
00:46:18,213 --> 00:46:19,407
butt ends of revolver,

1248
00:46:19,965 --> 00:46:22,036
hundreds and hundreds were injured that day.

1249
00:46:22,674 --> 00:46:24,267
Close to hundred went to jail.

1250
00:46:25,159 --> 00:46:26,839
But it was a scene that has never

1251
00:46:26,839 --> 00:46:27,960
left those who were there.

1252
00:46:28,839 --> 00:46:30,760
The survivors talk about the screaming,

1253
00:46:31,079 --> 00:46:33,320
the amount of blood with outside the church.

1254
00:46:34,054 --> 00:46:36,288
Many ran to the closest barber shop with

1255
00:46:36,288 --> 00:46:37,644
his Rev lint barber shop,

1256
00:46:38,362 --> 00:46:39,341
and their Rebel

1257
00:46:39,798 --> 00:46:41,097
couldn't find enough towels

1258
00:46:41,648 --> 00:46:43,320
to stop the bleeding of the children and

1259
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:45,071
their men and the women who came there

1260
00:46:45,071 --> 00:46:45,549
for aid.

1261
00:46:46,743 --> 00:46:48,255
Many people were terrified of going to a

1262
00:46:48,255 --> 00:46:49,074
local hospital

1263
00:46:49,703 --> 00:46:51,293
because they figured the client would find them

1264
00:46:51,293 --> 00:46:52,963
there. So they came to this barber shop

1265
00:46:52,963 --> 00:46:55,269
which became an aid station more or less,

1266
00:46:55,746 --> 00:46:57,893
and people rushed to help and to provide

1267
00:46:57,893 --> 00:46:58,450
aid there.

1268
00:47:00,292 --> 00:47:02,514
This was Bloody Tuesday, and this was a

1269
00:47:02,514 --> 00:47:03,331
day that

1270
00:47:04,101 --> 00:47:06,244
very quickly became the most important day in

1271
00:47:06,244 --> 00:47:07,458
the lives of

1272
00:47:08,322 --> 00:47:10,546
citizens at Black citizens of Tu and West

1273
00:47:10,943 --> 00:47:11,260
Alabama.

1274
00:47:12,293 --> 00:47:14,834
If the goal was as Chief Mara wanted

1275
00:47:14,834 --> 00:47:16,739
to be to stop the movement. It worked.

1276
00:47:17,866 --> 00:47:20,113
Because Reverend Rogers recognized he couldn't

1277
00:47:20,565 --> 00:47:23,027
risk heading people killed like he did that

1278
00:47:23,027 --> 00:47:25,646
day. He was also terrified of losing his

1279
00:47:25,646 --> 00:47:27,732
leadership position. Who would want to follow a

1280
00:47:27,732 --> 00:47:29,110
man that kept putting

1281
00:47:29,488 --> 00:47:31,324
children men and women in in harm way.

1282
00:47:32,043 --> 00:47:35,076
So Reverend Rogers stopped the protest for several

1283
00:47:35,076 --> 00:47:35,316
weeks.

1284
00:47:36,526 --> 00:47:38,297
Tried to reassess what

1285
00:47:39,149 --> 00:47:41,057
what he needed. What he needed in the

1286
00:47:41,057 --> 00:47:43,362
end was 2 things. Help from Reverend king.

1287
00:47:44,734 --> 00:47:46,734
Unfortunately, Reverend King did not come the Tu

1288
00:47:46,734 --> 00:47:48,974
elusive that day. He said what they said

1289
00:47:49,295 --> 00:47:51,295
Augustine and continued a protest that he begun

1290
00:47:51,295 --> 00:47:52,255
their several weeks earlier.

1291
00:47:53,148 --> 00:47:55,620
He sent to Tu loose, James Bevel is

1292
00:47:55,860 --> 00:47:58,651
Steed. Bevel of course is 1 of King's

1293
00:47:58,651 --> 00:48:00,885
most trusted lieutenant. And was 1 of the

1294
00:48:00,885 --> 00:48:02,320
architects of the Birmingham campaign.

1295
00:48:03,851 --> 00:48:05,946
Bevel came to Tu that evening

1296
00:48:06,323 --> 00:48:07,461
along with 2 young

1297
00:48:07,918 --> 00:48:10,572
individuals a raven Harold Middle broke from tennessee

1298
00:48:10,630 --> 00:48:12,306
and Richard Boone from Montgomery.

1299
00:48:13,198 --> 00:48:14,953
But those 3 were gel almost immediately.

1300
00:48:15,750 --> 00:48:17,983
And so in many ways, the movement had

1301
00:48:17,983 --> 00:48:20,296
ended before it had really begun in some

1302
00:48:20,296 --> 00:48:20,536
ways.

1303
00:48:21,493 --> 00:48:22,312
What changed

1304
00:48:22,783 --> 00:48:23,600
in the end

1305
00:48:24,290 --> 00:48:24,790
was

1306
00:48:25,163 --> 00:48:26,218
president Johnson

1307
00:48:27,304 --> 00:48:29,129
passed and signed the Civil Rights Act.

1308
00:48:29,859 --> 00:48:32,408
And that began to empower local leaders with

1309
00:48:32,408 --> 00:48:33,364
a new set of tools.

1310
00:48:34,161 --> 00:48:36,232
You see the move in West, Alabama start

1311
00:48:36,232 --> 00:48:38,224
to look toward the courts, the federal courts

1312
00:48:38,224 --> 00:48:39,122
to demand

1313
00:48:39,594 --> 00:48:39,833
hell.

1314
00:48:40,630 --> 00:48:43,183
But you'll also see very quickly that the

1315
00:48:43,342 --> 00:48:45,278
Department of Justice targets Tu

1316
00:48:45,974 --> 00:48:47,511
has a place to

1317
00:48:47,969 --> 00:48:49,085
enforce a civil the rights eye.

1318
00:48:49,976 --> 00:48:52,206
So Tu becomes 1 of the very first

1319
00:48:52,206 --> 00:48:54,458
test cases for attorney General of Kennedy

1320
00:48:55,231 --> 00:48:57,563
to prosecute white merchants who refuse

1321
00:48:57,954 --> 00:48:59,150
to serve black customers.

1322
00:49:00,506 --> 00:49:02,601
At the same time, you see the Fbi

1323
00:49:03,058 --> 00:49:04,356
start up an enhanced

1324
00:49:05,212 --> 00:49:07,286
discredit campaign against Robert Shelton.

1325
00:49:07,938 --> 00:49:09,393
That is they begin to

1326
00:49:10,245 --> 00:49:13,506
use newspapers and create false advertisements, and they

1327
00:49:13,506 --> 00:49:15,972
they mail letters around the state accusing sheldon.

1328
00:49:16,945 --> 00:49:19,344
Of stealing money and being a core leader.

1329
00:49:19,824 --> 00:49:21,664
And we we should... This... This is a

1330
00:49:21,664 --> 00:49:23,344
classic sort of c intel pro.

1331
00:49:23,997 --> 00:49:24,949
Program over the time.

1332
00:49:26,378 --> 00:49:28,282
You know, as I said, if if mer

1333
00:49:28,282 --> 00:49:30,187
doesn't like the powers of violence being held

1334
00:49:30,187 --> 00:49:31,854
by the people, just imagine how Jay or

1335
00:49:31,933 --> 00:49:33,625
Hoover feel about it. He's, like, we are

1336
00:49:33,625 --> 00:49:34,985
am having powers of violence.

1337
00:49:35,465 --> 00:49:35,625
So

1338
00:49:37,065 --> 00:49:37,565
and

1339
00:49:37,945 --> 00:49:40,445
they work with a natural grain of paranoia

1340
00:49:40,998 --> 00:49:43,307
Yeah you find in in Shelton and and

1341
00:49:43,307 --> 00:49:44,979
the clan. It's so it's a rich it's

1342
00:49:44,979 --> 00:49:46,332
a rich and fertile feel.

1343
00:49:47,287 --> 00:49:48,561
So that works.

1344
00:49:49,371 --> 00:49:51,356
Right? What's interesting here is that this works.

1345
00:49:51,515 --> 00:49:53,920
Right? The federal government's effort to

1346
00:49:54,373 --> 00:49:56,619
discredit Robert Sc or to

1347
00:49:57,166 --> 00:49:59,942
bring and threaten to bring lawsuits against these

1348
00:49:59,942 --> 00:50:02,084
merchants who refuse to certain black customers. It

1349
00:50:02,084 --> 00:50:02,639
begins to work.

1350
00:50:03,274 --> 00:50:06,412
Right? I'm sheldon begins to lose control over

1351
00:50:06,549 --> 00:50:08,878
the his local followers in

1352
00:50:09,492 --> 00:50:12,154
in Tu. The same time these white merchants

1353
00:50:12,449 --> 00:50:14,300
begin to recognize that

1354
00:50:14,834 --> 00:50:16,583
this might be the end of of of

1355
00:50:16,583 --> 00:50:18,196
of their ability to

1356
00:50:19,621 --> 00:50:21,693
not serve black pasta without penalty.

1357
00:50:22,968 --> 00:50:25,518
And then what you had is the beginning

1358
00:50:25,518 --> 00:50:26,018
of

1359
00:50:26,729 --> 00:50:28,407
or the the restart of the movement.

1360
00:50:28,887 --> 00:50:30,665
And in particular it focuses on

1361
00:50:31,364 --> 00:50:31,523
transportation,

1362
00:50:32,243 --> 00:50:33,702
there's a large scale

1363
00:50:34,973 --> 00:50:38,473
effort to integrate the local bus system. This

1364
00:50:38,473 --> 00:50:39,849
is significant because

1365
00:50:40,224 --> 00:50:42,053
Reverend and Rogers has lean his effort. He

1366
00:50:42,053 --> 00:50:43,508
had watched Reverend king

1367
00:50:43,900 --> 00:50:46,137
during his efforts in Montgomery integrate the buses

1368
00:50:46,137 --> 00:50:48,235
there. He replicates that in Tu

1369
00:50:48,854 --> 00:50:51,491
and organizes a near complete boycott of a

1370
00:50:51,491 --> 00:50:52,370
local bus system.

1371
00:50:53,181 --> 00:50:55,559
And it breaks the bus system within 5

1372
00:50:55,559 --> 00:50:55,797
months.

1373
00:50:57,066 --> 00:50:59,206
The way... We we have to say, I

1374
00:50:59,206 --> 00:51:02,081
mean, from a month of seeming of of

1375
00:51:02,081 --> 00:51:04,389
this vials blades, Tuesday seeming to win.

1376
00:51:05,344 --> 00:51:07,333
The crazy part of the story is that

1377
00:51:07,333 --> 00:51:09,004
by Christmas of 64,

1378
00:51:10,692 --> 00:51:13,005
The movement has won. Yep. In Tu.

1379
00:51:13,882 --> 00:51:16,116
And this is combination of of federal intervention,

1380
00:51:16,434 --> 00:51:18,827
but also, it's the role of arm black

1381
00:51:18,827 --> 00:51:19,386
cell defense.

1382
00:51:20,119 --> 00:51:20,360
Right.

1383
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:23,800
The most successful part of the movement after

1384
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:24,700
Bloody Tuesday

1385
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:27,719
is the effort in black citizens to literally

1386
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:28,680
fight fire with fire.

1387
00:51:29,492 --> 00:51:31,586
So the client's ability to

1388
00:51:32,839 --> 00:51:33,339
engage

1389
00:51:34,034 --> 00:51:36,447
lack citizens without penalty without

1390
00:51:37,158 --> 00:51:39,712
without any kind of torque goes away. There's

1391
00:51:39,712 --> 00:51:42,266
gun battle after gun battle between black citizens

1392
00:51:42,266 --> 00:51:45,394
and the clan. You can't drive across the

1393
00:51:45,394 --> 00:51:47,471
west side, which is the area that blacks

1394
00:51:47,471 --> 00:51:50,188
lived in without seeing black men patrol the

1395
00:51:50,188 --> 00:51:52,025
areas whether in car or on foot.

1396
00:51:52,838 --> 00:51:55,869
They're they're prepared for battle. And this is

1397
00:51:55,869 --> 00:51:58,023
a is not only a message, but it's

1398
00:51:58,023 --> 00:51:59,697
a reality for the planet and for the

1399
00:51:59,697 --> 00:52:01,872
police that no longer will be able to

1400
00:52:02,981 --> 00:52:04,971
engage in a type of sack of a

1401
00:52:04,971 --> 00:52:07,597
black sacred space and the and the enormous

1402
00:52:07,597 --> 00:52:09,905
violence visited upon hundreds of black people again.

1403
00:52:10,144 --> 00:52:11,417
It's just not gonna happen.

1404
00:52:12,069 --> 00:52:14,564
Who this combination of Armed black self defense

1405
00:52:14,942 --> 00:52:17,017
with Reverend king flooding the area with new

1406
00:52:17,017 --> 00:52:19,751
resources with the federal government targeting Tu

1407
00:52:20,704 --> 00:52:22,082
this makes Tu,

1408
00:52:23,579 --> 00:52:25,577
a new place, such that by the end

1409
00:52:25,577 --> 00:52:26,775
of 19 64,

1410
00:52:27,428 --> 00:52:29,519
you have the successful

1411
00:52:30,054 --> 00:52:31,963
integration of the bus system. And in fact,

1412
00:52:32,043 --> 00:52:34,111
you drive the bus system out of business.

1413
00:52:34,922 --> 00:52:37,069
It's 1 of the most powerful lessons of

1414
00:52:37,069 --> 00:52:39,399
the movement that you see this integration of

1415
00:52:39,615 --> 00:52:40,831
and local forces

1416
00:52:41,524 --> 00:52:42,342
that prosecute

1417
00:52:43,369 --> 00:52:45,279
in sort of a successful ending at this

1418
00:52:45,279 --> 00:52:47,190
point. It's not a rosy ending because it

1419
00:52:47,190 --> 00:52:48,702
takes more than a decade for the school

1420
00:52:48,702 --> 00:52:51,224
system and the city county commissioners to integrate

1421
00:52:51,423 --> 00:52:52,454
these power structures.

1422
00:52:53,407 --> 00:52:54,304
But it is

1423
00:52:54,677 --> 00:52:56,899
a victory of sorts. And it's 1 that

1424
00:52:56,899 --> 00:52:58,962
local black citizens today still talk about that

1425
00:52:58,962 --> 00:53:01,049
they were able to defeat the clan. They

1426
00:53:01,049 --> 00:53:01,789
were able

1427
00:53:02,250 --> 00:53:04,489
to integrate the bus system. They were able

1428
00:53:04,489 --> 00:53:07,289
to lift themselves up from the depths of

1429
00:53:07,289 --> 00:53:09,780
violence and despair on bloody Tuesday to move

1430
00:53:09,780 --> 00:53:11,529
forward and with new tools,

1431
00:53:12,164 --> 00:53:12,664
prosecute,

1432
00:53:13,515 --> 00:53:15,899
eventually win major battles in their lives.

1433
00:53:16,710 --> 00:53:19,210
Yes. I I was thinking about victories

1434
00:53:19,989 --> 00:53:21,190
and Ambiguous us and otherwise,

1435
00:53:22,070 --> 00:53:26,085
you asked Robert Shelton on 01/01/1964,

1436
00:53:26,244 --> 00:53:29,445
what his dream of 01/01/1965

1437
00:53:29,445 --> 00:53:29,844
would be.

1438
00:53:30,485 --> 00:53:31,765
It wouldn't be the way it was.

1439
00:53:32,974 --> 00:53:35,831
It was un understandably a victory from the

1440
00:53:35,831 --> 00:53:37,521
perspective. It was a defeat un

1441
00:53:38,449 --> 00:53:39,614
a defeat from the

1442
00:53:40,213 --> 00:53:42,307
perspective of the most of the militants,

1443
00:53:42,764 --> 00:53:45,077
on behalf of white supremacy. I was also

1444
00:53:45,077 --> 00:53:46,693
thinking as I had said to you when

1445
00:53:47,230 --> 00:53:48,426
as we began recording,

1446
00:53:49,558 --> 00:53:52,671
how often I wrote reconstruction in the margins,

1447
00:53:53,948 --> 00:53:57,060
and how in so many ways, this is

1448
00:53:57,060 --> 00:53:59,777
of a vision of what reconstruction kind of

1449
00:53:59,777 --> 00:54:01,841
was at certain points or could have been,

1450
00:54:02,556 --> 00:54:05,969
of, this is what the anti reconstruction is

1451
00:54:05,969 --> 00:54:06,469
feared

1452
00:54:07,017 --> 00:54:09,585
was black union vet army veterans

1453
00:54:10,198 --> 00:54:11,335
defending their communities

1454
00:54:11,948 --> 00:54:12,266
against,

1455
00:54:13,220 --> 00:54:14,652
white supremacist violence.

1456
00:54:16,020 --> 00:54:18,569
Hamburg, South Carolina would have been different if

1457
00:54:18,569 --> 00:54:20,720
they had all had spencer or Henry repeating

1458
00:54:20,720 --> 00:54:21,676
rei, rifles.

1459
00:54:22,725 --> 00:54:24,098
During that Pa,

1460
00:54:24,710 --> 00:54:27,329
yeah. So Wilmington, North Carolina and, but 18

1461
00:54:27,329 --> 00:54:27,806
96.

1462
00:54:29,314 --> 00:54:30,347
The this is

1463
00:54:31,474 --> 00:54:33,712
this is what Shelton his il and mari

1464
00:54:33,712 --> 00:54:35,650
and his ill have always feared

1465
00:54:36,269 --> 00:54:36,769
is

1466
00:54:37,388 --> 00:54:40,425
a proud people able to defend themselves, and

1467
00:54:40,425 --> 00:54:41,165
their families

1468
00:54:41,478 --> 00:54:41,978
against

1469
00:54:42,351 --> 00:54:44,893
the violence that would seek to continue to

1470
00:54:44,893 --> 00:54:46,164
dominate and destroy them.

1471
00:54:47,753 --> 00:54:50,074
Yep. I think you're absolutely right That 1

1472
00:54:50,074 --> 00:54:51,613
of the the many powerful

1473
00:54:51,992 --> 00:54:52,492
lessons

1474
00:54:52,871 --> 00:54:54,010
of bloody Tuesday

1475
00:54:54,789 --> 00:54:57,906
is the absolute necessity for blacks to arm

1476
00:54:57,906 --> 00:54:59,025
themselves and defend themselves.

1477
00:54:59,917 --> 00:55:01,910
But I also think that it's not exceptional.

1478
00:55:02,149 --> 00:55:03,845
I think in every southern town,

1479
00:55:04,302 --> 00:55:07,012
you find stories like this. Yeah. And 1

1480
00:55:07,012 --> 00:55:08,861
of the tragedies of how we've told the

1481
00:55:08,861 --> 00:55:09,260
movement.

1482
00:55:10,536 --> 00:55:12,369
How do we try a sense that King's

1483
00:55:12,369 --> 00:55:13,587
message of non violence

1484
00:55:14,203 --> 00:55:16,378
need not be fully explored and celebrated

1485
00:55:17,165 --> 00:55:19,092
but it should not overs shadow

1486
00:55:19,464 --> 00:55:20,836
1 of its necessary

1487
00:55:21,842 --> 00:55:24,554
companions, which is the ability of Blacks and

1488
00:55:24,554 --> 00:55:26,570
willingness in Blacks to defend their lives

1489
00:55:27,028 --> 00:55:28,305
on a regular basis.

1490
00:55:29,262 --> 00:55:30,938
I often think that we'd we defend the

1491
00:55:30,938 --> 00:55:32,375
movement sometimes of this power.

1492
00:55:33,188 --> 00:55:35,262
Of the necessity black armed self defense. When

1493
00:55:35,262 --> 00:55:37,575
we only focus on king words. Or we...

1494
00:55:37,814 --> 00:55:39,728
I mean, or we give it, we give

1495
00:55:39,728 --> 00:55:41,961
stoke Car Michael, a greater credit than he

1496
00:55:41,961 --> 00:55:42,280
deserves.

1497
00:55:43,331 --> 00:55:45,879
The the... As if the black panthers were

1498
00:55:45,879 --> 00:55:46,379
somehow

1499
00:55:46,994 --> 00:55:47,494
first

1500
00:55:48,028 --> 00:55:50,497
to say, hey, we're gonna defend ourselves. It

1501
00:55:50,497 --> 00:55:52,909
wasn't it wasn't and it wasn't

1502
00:55:54,030 --> 00:55:56,590
Malcolm max either. It we wasn't an nation

1503
00:55:56,590 --> 00:55:58,929
of Islam. It wasn't the the panthers,

1504
00:55:59,722 --> 00:56:00,838
it was people like,

1505
00:56:01,556 --> 00:56:02,193
Joe M.

1506
00:56:03,150 --> 00:56:05,064
And and and there's hundreds of people like

1507
00:56:05,064 --> 00:56:08,289
him. Whose stories have yet to be adequately

1508
00:56:08,425 --> 00:56:09,936
told integrated, I imagine,

1509
00:56:11,128 --> 00:56:14,467
who who believed in... Who believed in the

1510
00:56:14,467 --> 00:56:16,714
tactics of non violence but we're not willing

1511
00:56:16,714 --> 00:56:19,114
to throw themselves on a burning altar for

1512
00:56:19,114 --> 00:56:22,174
the benefit of to motivate northern whites

1513
00:56:23,114 --> 00:56:24,635
to come to their aid. Let's put it

1514
00:56:24,635 --> 00:56:24,954
that way.

1515
00:56:25,849 --> 00:56:27,445
I think many of the black systems that

1516
00:56:27,525 --> 00:56:30,179
I spoke with, they believe deeply in the

1517
00:56:30,557 --> 00:56:32,472
in the power of non violence that change

1518
00:56:32,472 --> 00:56:33,110
one's hearts.

1519
00:56:34,001 --> 00:56:35,987
But they also lived in a community and

1520
00:56:35,987 --> 00:56:37,281
it grew up in families

1521
00:56:37,735 --> 00:56:39,880
that had suffered might at the hand of

1522
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:40,912
violent white resistance.

1523
00:56:41,389 --> 00:56:41,627
Yeah.

1524
00:56:42,198 --> 00:56:43,468
It's not a black citizen and I spoke

1525
00:56:43,468 --> 00:56:45,055
to, and I spoke to hundreds for this

1526
00:56:45,055 --> 00:56:45,373
book.

1527
00:56:45,928 --> 00:56:47,777
That didn't grow up hearing stories

1528
00:56:48,389 --> 00:56:49,103
of Lynch.

1529
00:56:49,674 --> 00:56:52,231
Or hearing stories of of slack family members

1530
00:56:52,231 --> 00:56:54,489
gone missing for too long or forever

1531
00:56:55,108 --> 00:56:56,945
because they tried to rise up and do

1532
00:56:56,945 --> 00:56:57,585
the right thing.

1533
00:56:58,476 --> 00:57:00,942
It's not surprising that people would be attracted

1534
00:57:00,942 --> 00:57:04,203
to Griffin King's words, but also understood that

1535
00:57:04,203 --> 00:57:06,192
they had to arm themselves to protect themselves.

1536
00:57:06,844 --> 00:57:08,459
Because history taught that

1537
00:57:09,632 --> 00:57:11,386
that is what in the end to protect

1538
00:57:11,386 --> 00:57:13,298
them. It wasn't only King's words, but it

1539
00:57:13,298 --> 00:57:14,015
would be their guns.

1540
00:57:14,746 --> 00:57:16,733
That would force the police to stop and

1541
00:57:16,733 --> 00:57:18,481
and didn't think before they would invade a

1542
00:57:18,481 --> 00:57:18,640
house.

1543
00:57:20,627 --> 00:57:22,693
The other part of this is like, know

1544
00:57:22,693 --> 00:57:23,193
is

1545
00:57:23,504 --> 00:57:25,019
long been in the style the teaching of

1546
00:57:25,019 --> 00:57:27,193
the lost cause, which attempts to sanitize

1547
00:57:27,810 --> 00:57:28,289
slavery.

1548
00:57:29,246 --> 00:57:30,840
There's also been the of the civil rights

1549
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:33,489
movement that is mostly focused it as a

1550
00:57:33,489 --> 00:57:33,989
blood

1551
00:57:34,369 --> 00:57:36,369
revolution. That king changed the hearts of men

1552
00:57:36,369 --> 00:57:38,690
and women in this bite and they were

1553
00:57:38,690 --> 00:57:39,590
able to,

1554
00:57:39,969 --> 00:57:40,469
almost

1555
00:57:41,344 --> 00:57:44,461
open the doors to integration. Just not true.

1556
00:57:45,020 --> 00:57:45,840
It limits

1557
00:57:46,538 --> 00:57:48,936
the reality of black radical lives was was

1558
00:57:48,936 --> 00:57:51,107
not just still a philosophical in the sense

1559
00:57:51,107 --> 00:57:52,544
that king preached on violence.

1560
00:57:53,262 --> 00:57:55,098
But there was a live reality of arm

1561
00:57:55,098 --> 00:57:57,333
black self defense. That was just as radical

1562
00:57:57,333 --> 00:57:58,531
and just as necessary.

1563
00:57:59,344 --> 00:58:01,574
To move forward with the civil rights moving

1564
00:58:01,574 --> 00:58:02,848
through parts of the rural south.

1565
00:58:03,485 --> 00:58:03,804
Mh.

1566
00:58:04,361 --> 00:58:06,693
And not to teach our children these 2

1567
00:58:06,989 --> 00:58:07,887
intertwined themes

1568
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:10,059
non nonviolent social

1569
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:11,900
protest with violent

1570
00:58:12,519 --> 00:58:14,280
harm black's self defense to see how these

1571
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:15,579
these work together

1572
00:58:16,132 --> 00:58:18,915
to produce the civil rights movement. Some of

1573
00:58:18,915 --> 00:58:20,187
that we've all our children have be go

1574
00:58:20,187 --> 00:58:20,425
forward.

1575
00:58:21,221 --> 00:58:22,572
Yes. It's something we...

1576
00:58:23,208 --> 00:58:26,091
I think we discuss in emails, I... Often

1577
00:58:26,091 --> 00:58:27,069
when I used to

1578
00:58:27,445 --> 00:58:29,278
do the Mara history survey, and I would

1579
00:58:29,278 --> 00:58:32,003
talk about... I would try to contrast store

1580
00:58:32,003 --> 00:58:34,714
geographical approaches, I would contrast a Charles Marsh

1581
00:58:34,873 --> 00:58:37,026
God's long summer with David Chappell don't of

1582
00:58:37,026 --> 00:58:39,817
hope. Mh. Not necessarily for the reason to

1583
00:58:39,817 --> 00:58:40,317
either

1584
00:58:40,708 --> 00:58:43,890
Charles or David intended. But the

1585
00:58:45,799 --> 00:58:46,299
the

1586
00:58:46,674 --> 00:58:47,445
necessity of

1587
00:58:47,963 --> 00:58:49,657
revolution it seems to me is to have

1588
00:58:49,715 --> 00:58:50,751
a muddled middle,

1589
00:58:51,309 --> 00:58:52,606
which is un understandable

1590
00:58:53,460 --> 00:58:54,278
for either

1591
00:58:54,989 --> 00:58:55,948
the radical fringes.

1592
00:58:57,387 --> 00:58:57,706
And,

1593
00:58:58,745 --> 00:58:59,245
Charles

1594
00:58:59,784 --> 00:59:01,942
speaking more as a theologian, I think, sees

1595
00:59:01,942 --> 00:59:04,100
the the white quiet. Let's call them.

1596
00:59:04,993 --> 00:59:05,493
As

1597
00:59:07,068 --> 00:59:09,302
prophetic judged, and who am might have say

1598
00:59:09,302 --> 00:59:09,621
he's wrong.

1599
00:59:10,738 --> 00:59:11,536
On the other hand,

1600
00:59:12,667 --> 00:59:14,500
Charles Shelton hated white quiet too.

1601
00:59:15,855 --> 00:59:16,652
And as,

1602
00:59:17,369 --> 00:59:19,203
David has pointed out, others have pointed out,

1603
00:59:19,442 --> 00:59:22,405
you see the the increasing violence of the

1604
00:59:22,405 --> 00:59:24,260
clan and the creation of the white

1605
00:59:24,795 --> 00:59:25,295
movements

1606
00:59:25,911 --> 00:59:26,411
are

1607
00:59:26,786 --> 00:59:28,163
reactions to that quiet.

1608
00:59:30,544 --> 00:59:30,783
So,

1609
00:59:31,578 --> 00:59:33,885
that is not a satisfying... That is perhaps

1610
00:59:33,885 --> 00:59:36,431
not a morally satisfying historical narrative.

1611
00:59:38,352 --> 00:59:39,305
More than

1612
00:59:41,847 --> 00:59:44,920
it it's probably not satisfying to some to

1613
00:59:45,039 --> 00:59:48,163
to to to sort of degrade the memory

1614
00:59:48,299 --> 00:59:51,184
of king and of the non nonviolent movement

1615
00:59:51,241 --> 00:59:54,502
by focusing on these people who defend themselves.

1616
00:59:55,710 --> 00:59:57,141
I think kinda is more good. But I

1617
00:59:57,141 --> 00:59:58,255
also think it's true history.

1618
00:59:59,050 --> 01:00:00,403
I also think it I think it's I

1619
01:00:00,403 --> 01:00:02,405
think it more... I think it more,

1620
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:03,540
approaches

1621
01:00:04,548 --> 01:00:05,898
has a greater sense of the truth.

1622
01:00:07,643 --> 01:00:08,914
I agree. In many ways.

1623
01:00:10,285 --> 01:00:12,704
Reverend Rogers himself who's won in clint closes

1624
01:00:12,765 --> 01:00:14,925
lieutenant. He come to with the needs of

1625
01:00:14,925 --> 01:00:16,045
armed self defense.

1626
01:00:16,859 --> 01:00:18,877
He's riding with some colleagues to Be

1627
01:00:19,256 --> 01:00:21,493
just outside of Birmingham and he finds himself

1628
01:00:21,493 --> 01:00:22,931
being killed by what he assumes as a

1629
01:00:22,931 --> 01:00:24,070
is a clan vehicle

1630
01:00:24,864 --> 01:00:27,041
and his driver and then named Jerry Martin

1631
01:00:27,261 --> 01:00:27,820
his armed.

1632
01:00:28,859 --> 01:00:30,797
And Martin tells him I do would rather

1633
01:00:30,856 --> 01:00:32,475
be caught by the clan

1634
01:00:33,346 --> 01:00:35,097
with a gun then by the police without

1635
01:00:35,097 --> 01:00:35,256
1.

1636
01:00:36,052 --> 01:00:38,041
And he's terror... And so Martin basically,

1637
01:00:38,439 --> 01:00:40,031
he's ready to engage in combat.

1638
01:00:40,523 --> 01:00:41,478
Able to escape.

1639
01:00:42,353 --> 01:00:44,262
But at that point, Reverend Rodney realized that

1640
01:00:44,262 --> 01:00:46,648
there's a need in his philosophy for Arm

1641
01:00:46,648 --> 01:00:47,285
black self defense.

1642
01:00:48,095 --> 01:00:50,002
He can't ask people to put their lives

1643
01:00:50,002 --> 01:00:51,297
on the line regularly

1644
01:00:51,830 --> 01:00:53,602
and and hope that the movement

1645
01:00:54,056 --> 01:00:54,771
will prosper.

1646
01:00:55,659 --> 01:00:57,325
Another other thing though is it's interesting,

1647
01:00:58,515 --> 01:00:58,673
up

1648
01:01:00,498 --> 01:01:01,370
Where the book ends.

1649
01:01:02,974 --> 01:01:05,520
He remembers it shaving and cutting the hair

1650
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:07,668
of a of a local politician. This is

1651
01:01:07,668 --> 01:01:08,463
after the movement.

1652
01:01:09,431 --> 01:01:11,493
And as he... As this individual, this 1

1653
01:01:11,493 --> 01:01:13,396
an individual pace him, he says,

1654
01:01:14,110 --> 01:01:15,934
give us 50 years and we'll get it

1655
01:01:15,934 --> 01:01:16,489
all back.

1656
01:01:17,618 --> 01:01:19,293
So as we think about the movement and

1657
01:01:19,293 --> 01:01:21,607
how to explain his successes In many ways,

1658
01:01:22,166 --> 01:01:24,001
the battle moves to different places.

1659
01:01:24,734 --> 01:01:26,330
It's like, how do you teach about the

1660
01:01:26,330 --> 01:01:27,208
movement schools?

1661
01:01:27,766 --> 01:01:29,761
How do you decorate the public landscape? How

1662
01:01:29,761 --> 01:01:30,580
do memorial

1663
01:01:31,038 --> 01:01:32,075
civil rights heroes?

1664
01:01:32,727 --> 01:01:35,351
How do you begin to protect voting rights?

1665
01:01:36,146 --> 01:01:37,441
It strikes me that

1666
01:01:37,894 --> 01:01:39,826
Rev Lint when he passed

1667
01:01:40,453 --> 01:01:41,408
in 2020.

1668
01:01:41,646 --> 01:01:43,976
He went to his grave terrified because

1669
01:01:44,351 --> 01:01:45,885
there was ongoing battles

1670
01:01:46,260 --> 01:01:48,090
that were promised by this interaction with his

1671
01:01:48,090 --> 01:01:51,135
local white politician give us 50 years. We'll

1672
01:01:51,135 --> 01:01:51,932
take it all back.

1673
01:01:52,970 --> 01:01:55,922
Lint saw before we pass the idea of

1674
01:01:55,922 --> 01:01:56,901
history being

1675
01:01:57,213 --> 01:01:58,986
1 of the most powerful antidote

1676
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:02,623
to the current crisis and politics of education,

1677
01:02:02,862 --> 01:02:03,919
Need to remember

1678
01:02:04,707 --> 01:02:07,335
struggle and try and over tragedy, but I

1679
01:02:07,335 --> 01:02:09,166
just lay it in a book, but make

1680
01:02:09,166 --> 01:02:10,678
sure it's taught in the churches in the

1681
01:02:10,678 --> 01:02:12,213
school, make sure the monuments

1682
01:02:12,923 --> 01:02:13,641
reflect the heroes.

1683
01:02:14,119 --> 01:02:15,018
Make sure

1684
01:02:15,396 --> 01:02:17,071
there's in need that when people walked down

1685
01:02:17,071 --> 01:02:19,144
the streets of Tu elusive. They understand the

1686
01:02:19,144 --> 01:02:20,660
kind of history that happened here, but it

1687
01:02:20,660 --> 01:02:22,277
wasn't sanitized and it wasn't

1688
01:02:23,068 --> 01:02:23,467
disappeared.

1689
01:02:24,344 --> 01:02:25,880
This is a theme like a repeated

1690
01:02:26,338 --> 01:02:28,332
time and time again that need to remember.

1691
01:02:30,565 --> 01:02:31,442
Let's finish with that.

1692
01:02:33,291 --> 01:02:34,985
You have now found yourself

1693
01:02:35,998 --> 01:02:38,488
since you took on Lit River Clinton's charge

1694
01:02:39,262 --> 01:02:40,877
and this mission

1695
01:02:42,548 --> 01:02:44,546
you've gone from being a civil war air

1696
01:02:44,546 --> 01:02:47,183
historian to a civil rights historian.

1697
01:02:48,142 --> 01:02:49,820
But in a specific place,

1698
01:02:51,273 --> 01:02:53,132
and you're engaging in the

1699
01:02:53,670 --> 01:02:54,789
Alabama memory project,

1700
01:02:55,827 --> 01:02:58,314
which is fascinating name because of, as I

1701
01:02:58,314 --> 01:02:59,663
was prepping in the notes for this and

1702
01:02:59,663 --> 01:03:00,853
I was having lunch with a friend here,

1703
01:03:01,012 --> 01:03:02,599
and he said to me,

1704
01:03:03,552 --> 01:03:05,139
something else, it was in a different release.

1705
01:03:05,297 --> 01:03:07,220
He said, you know, I I think I've

1706
01:03:07,220 --> 01:03:09,289
heard you say that memory is off of

1707
01:03:09,289 --> 01:03:10,244
the enemy of history.

1708
01:03:11,915 --> 01:03:13,826
And I said, oh, did? That's pretty smart.

1709
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:14,800
That was pretty good.

1710
01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:16,260
And

1711
01:03:17,519 --> 01:03:19,440
and I know that is it's true. You

1712
01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:21,280
know, I... That often...

1713
01:03:23,853 --> 01:03:26,251
Often history is certainly the enemy of memory.

1714
01:03:26,890 --> 01:03:29,128
Let's the old Sky joke about the man

1715
01:03:29,128 --> 01:03:30,806
who said Scott had a great history before

1716
01:03:30,806 --> 01:03:31,845
the historians has got a hold of it.

1717
01:03:33,698 --> 01:03:34,198
And

1718
01:03:35,296 --> 01:03:37,214
and yet, you find yourself down the memory

1719
01:03:37,214 --> 01:03:37,614
business.

1720
01:03:38,892 --> 01:03:40,751
So how can historians

1721
01:03:41,784 --> 01:03:43,704
engage in preserving memory.

1722
01:03:44,344 --> 01:03:46,585
Usually when we do that, we end up

1723
01:03:46,585 --> 01:03:47,625
pissing everyone off.

1724
01:03:50,509 --> 01:03:52,178
Yeah. There's a reason this book took so

1725
01:03:52,178 --> 01:03:54,188
long. Right? It's

1726
01:03:55,993 --> 01:03:56,493
I

1727
01:03:56,804 --> 01:03:58,322
early on, it I had a really powerful

1728
01:03:58,322 --> 01:04:00,181
experience that was a black woman

1729
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:01,380
who

1730
01:04:01,838 --> 01:04:03,357
in this case, had been very involved in

1731
01:04:03,357 --> 01:04:04,875
the movement, but she also had a lynch

1732
01:04:04,875 --> 01:04:05,515
in her family.

1733
01:04:06,489 --> 01:04:08,090
And she's older in her nineties.

1734
01:04:08,489 --> 01:04:09,929
And she got close to me, and she

1735
01:04:09,929 --> 01:04:11,289
thought me in the chest with her 4

1736
01:04:11,289 --> 01:04:12,889
finger and so Doctor Gig, I'm gonna tell

1737
01:04:12,889 --> 01:04:13,369
you something.

1738
01:04:14,504 --> 01:04:16,337
And you have got to believe me. But

1739
01:04:16,417 --> 01:04:18,649
You gonna find this in a newspaper, but

1740
01:04:18,649 --> 01:04:21,040
you have got to believe me. And then

1741
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:23,920
she proceeded to talk about this horrible incident

1742
01:04:23,920 --> 01:04:26,143
or family, which a loved 1 had been

1743
01:04:26,143 --> 01:04:26,460
lynch.

1744
01:04:28,048 --> 01:04:29,898
But what I took from that was

1745
01:04:30,271 --> 01:04:31,406
the need to

1746
01:04:32,275 --> 01:04:34,835
Suspend perhaps traditional notions of proof of persuasion.

1747
01:04:35,714 --> 01:04:38,855
If I didn't believe her, that story of

1748
01:04:38,914 --> 01:04:39,815
enormous violence

1749
01:04:40,114 --> 01:04:40,835
would be lost.

1750
01:04:41,408 --> 01:04:44,695
But so would this... That her family's ability

1751
01:04:45,150 --> 01:04:47,698
to move on, Right? To sort of understand

1752
01:04:47,698 --> 01:04:50,260
to find solace to to trying to make

1753
01:04:50,260 --> 01:04:52,405
sense of what happened. They became civil rights

1754
01:04:52,405 --> 01:04:52,882
protesters.

1755
01:04:54,710 --> 01:04:56,459
I think I've found in my own work

1756
01:04:56,459 --> 01:04:56,959
that

1757
01:04:57,348 --> 01:04:59,973
The more time I I spend outside the

1758
01:04:59,973 --> 01:05:00,871
traditional academy,

1759
01:05:01,405 --> 01:05:03,712
the better my understanding of the cad becomes.

1760
01:05:04,763 --> 01:05:06,599
So what that means is that, I find

1761
01:05:06,599 --> 01:05:08,993
my own obligation as I move through the

1762
01:05:08,993 --> 01:05:09,493
profession

1763
01:05:10,030 --> 01:05:13,234
to include not simply the teaching of undergraduates

1764
01:05:13,234 --> 01:05:15,563
and the writing of professional history, but

1765
01:05:16,017 --> 01:05:18,085
to listen to those that live in community

1766
01:05:18,085 --> 01:05:20,232
near me. What I heard them say is,

1767
01:05:20,471 --> 01:05:22,163
will you help us tell a story

1768
01:05:22,473 --> 01:05:23,425
in our own words.

1769
01:05:24,378 --> 01:05:25,093
But also,

1770
01:05:25,648 --> 01:05:27,395
when I talk to Rep Lint about this.

1771
01:05:27,554 --> 01:05:28,745
And I would say, I'm working on my.

1772
01:05:28,903 --> 01:05:30,094
I don't have time to work with you

1773
01:05:30,094 --> 01:05:31,698
on a school curriculum. I don't have time

1774
01:05:31,698 --> 01:05:33,051
to talk to you about getting a monument

1775
01:05:33,051 --> 01:05:33,290
going.

1776
01:05:34,325 --> 01:05:35,996
He said something that stuck that's always stuck

1777
01:05:35,996 --> 01:05:36,474
with. He said,

1778
01:05:37,429 --> 01:05:39,394
what if no 1 reads your book? Time.

1779
01:05:40,553 --> 01:05:42,630
And I'm just like, well, what if more

1780
01:05:42,630 --> 01:05:44,867
reits spoke? Right? What he meant though was

1781
01:05:44,867 --> 01:05:47,435
that the book wasn't enough. At the moral

1782
01:05:47,435 --> 01:05:49,507
truth that any story that of power and

1783
01:05:49,507 --> 01:05:50,883
of struggle of sacrifice

1784
01:05:51,498 --> 01:05:53,034
can't be solely contained

1785
01:05:53,664 --> 01:05:55,820
in a hard cover. It needs to be

1786
01:05:55,820 --> 01:05:57,815
brought into the schools into the churches into

1787
01:05:57,815 --> 01:05:58,454
the streets.

1788
01:05:59,412 --> 01:06:01,248
So many ways, the most powerful lessons I've

1789
01:06:01,248 --> 01:06:02,626
learned in the last 10 years

1790
01:06:03,098 --> 01:06:04,869
have been to move beyond

1791
01:06:05,482 --> 01:06:06,617
my traditional training

1792
01:06:06,991 --> 01:06:07,865
to slow down.

1793
01:06:09,216 --> 01:06:10,964
There's the reason I took over 200 interviews

1794
01:06:10,964 --> 01:06:13,843
for this bill people wanted their story heard,

1795
01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:16,549
and they wanted to bring it to the

1796
01:06:16,549 --> 01:06:19,198
public. And again, not simply in a book

1797
01:06:19,669 --> 01:06:22,706
but in the public landscape in new school

1798
01:06:22,706 --> 01:06:24,644
curriculum in new monuments.

1799
01:06:26,141 --> 01:06:28,232
And as the humanity's come under attack, again

1800
01:06:28,232 --> 01:06:30,219
and again, and we see students move towards

1801
01:06:30,219 --> 01:06:31,036
other disciplines.

1802
01:06:31,728 --> 01:06:33,420
I wonder if this is a way to

1803
01:06:33,476 --> 01:06:34,691
revive our profession

1804
01:06:35,065 --> 01:06:36,280
at See ourselves

1805
01:06:37,067 --> 01:06:40,090
as public intellectual and not simply speaking in

1806
01:06:40,090 --> 01:06:42,318
the media or writing op ads, But what

1807
01:06:42,318 --> 01:06:43,614
does it mean to walk

1808
01:06:44,563 --> 01:06:46,716
alongside of people whose stories is enormously important

1809
01:06:46,716 --> 01:06:47,753
but never been told.

1810
01:06:48,471 --> 01:06:51,284
What does it mean to help them imagine

1811
01:06:52,299 --> 01:06:53,336
a school system?

1812
01:06:54,068 --> 01:06:54,568
Or

1813
01:06:55,182 --> 01:06:57,726
a main street that represents their sense of

1814
01:06:57,726 --> 01:06:59,237
the past and not someone else's.

1815
01:07:00,430 --> 01:07:02,679
I think engaging in those kinds of question

1816
01:07:02,816 --> 01:07:04,683
activities promise kind of

1817
01:07:05,298 --> 01:07:07,869
20 first century renewal of the profession

1818
01:07:08,245 --> 01:07:10,316
that I think can help rebirth the humanities.

1819
01:07:10,794 --> 01:07:12,626
In many ways, this is not new.

1820
01:07:13,197 --> 01:07:14,386
You know, throughout history,

1821
01:07:15,179 --> 01:07:17,635
academics have always seen themselves as having a

1822
01:07:17,635 --> 01:07:18,981
1 leg in the academy, and 1 leg

1823
01:07:18,981 --> 01:07:19,695
in the community.

1824
01:07:20,344 --> 01:07:22,102
But I found that perhaps it hasn't been

1825
01:07:22,102 --> 01:07:23,641
as true as it needs to be

1826
01:07:24,020 --> 01:07:24,500
recently.

1827
01:07:25,139 --> 01:07:26,817
And I find now in the deep south

1828
01:07:26,817 --> 01:07:28,276
as we find ourselves

1829
01:07:29,550 --> 01:07:31,150
subject to anti D laws.

1830
01:07:31,869 --> 01:07:33,710
That this this is this is this work

1831
01:07:33,710 --> 01:07:36,289
is necessary. We need to tell the stories

1832
01:07:37,004 --> 01:07:38,920
of these individual in my case of the

1833
01:07:38,920 --> 01:07:39,958
civil rights movement.

1834
01:07:40,516 --> 01:07:42,432
Need to get them into the churches into

1835
01:07:42,432 --> 01:07:43,172
the schools

1836
01:07:43,869 --> 01:07:45,886
because these histories need to be preserved

1837
01:07:46,437 --> 01:07:47,969
And most importantly, the laboratory

1838
01:07:48,500 --> 01:07:51,753
potential of these stories of organizing of imagining

1839
01:07:51,753 --> 01:07:52,706
a better world,

1840
01:07:53,755 --> 01:07:56,572
they can be less heard or even silenced

1841
01:07:57,190 --> 01:07:58,708
perhaps in these new laws, but they need

1842
01:07:58,708 --> 01:08:00,546
to be celebrated. They need to be brought

1843
01:08:00,546 --> 01:08:01,765
to the public conscience

1844
01:08:02,478 --> 01:08:05,032
this I believe is 1 of the mission

1845
01:08:05,032 --> 01:08:06,150
of historians is today.

1846
01:08:08,304 --> 01:08:09,821
My guess today has been John Gig.

1847
01:08:10,554 --> 01:08:11,453
He is author

1848
01:08:11,830 --> 01:08:14,942
of bloody Tuesday, the untold story of the

1849
01:08:14,942 --> 01:08:16,878
struggle for civil rights in Tu,

1850
01:08:17,747 --> 01:08:19,097
John, thank you so much for being part

1851
01:08:19,097 --> 01:08:21,399
of historically thinking. Thank you for inviting. Been

1852
01:08:21,399 --> 01:08:22,193
a wonderful hour.

1853
01:08:23,066 --> 01:08:24,336
And thanks so much to you as well

1854
01:08:24,336 --> 01:08:25,844
for being partner historically thinking.

1855
01:08:26,574 --> 01:08:28,091
You like the podcast, you can, of course,

1856
01:08:28,250 --> 01:08:30,484
give us review on the Podcast platform of

1857
01:08:30,484 --> 01:08:30,962
your choice.

1858
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:33,277
But by far the best way of helping

1859
01:08:33,277 --> 01:08:35,287
us out, is to share the podcast with

1860
01:08:35,287 --> 01:08:36,805
a friend or with many friends.

1861
01:08:37,524 --> 01:08:40,002
George Madonna is our producer, John Rad is

1862
01:08:40,002 --> 01:08:42,492
our sound engineer. I'm A and bone, and

1863
01:08:42,652 --> 01:08:44,168
I'll be back with more history to think

1864
01:08:44,168 --> 01:08:45,925
about and to shape the way we think

1865
01:08:45,925 --> 01:08:46,484
about the present.