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Hello, just before 10AM on Tuesday, 06/09/1964
in Tu,
Alabama,
hundreds of people were gathered in first African
baptist,
prepared to March the new Tu County Courthouse,
where they plan to drink from water fountains
and used restroom facilities that were supposed to
be only used by whites.
Around the church were gathered hundreds of police
members at the K k clan and other
d digitized whites.
At 10:15AM
after the arrest of Reverend t y Rogers,
pastor of first African Baptist, the police attacked
the church.
They beat those who attempted to leave with
clubs and cattle prod.
Then the door being closed and locked. They
brought up a fire truck. And blasted away
the stained glass windows, filling the sanctuary in
some places ankle deep with water.
Then tear gas canisters were fired through the
gaping windows
driving those within outside where they were beaten
and many were haul off to jail.
This was bloody Tuesday,
Now a nearly forgotten inflection point in the
civil rights struggle
overshadowed by the concurrent campaign,
then ongoing in Saint Augustine, Florida,
by national events and weeks to come and
by the violence of Selma, Alabama in 19
65.
John Gig has preserved the memories of Bloody
Tuesday, and the complex struggle for justice in
Tu in his new book, Bloody Tuesday, the
untold story of the struggle for civil rights
in Tu.
John M gig is associate professor of history
and director of the summer cell center for
the study of the south at the university
of Alabama. He's creator of history of us.
The first black history class talk daily in
a public school in Alabama.
Gig is also director of the Alabama memory
project, which seeks to recapture and memorial
the over 650
lives lost to Lynch in Alabama, and is
a founding member of the tu Civil rights
history and
reconciliation foundation.
John M gig. Welcome to historically thinking. It's
so good to be here with you this
morning.
So
I was entrance from the first pages of
the book,
and I was also captivated
by the way that you structured the book.
So... And
I noted,
with the words John fee,
the writer jonathan at fee in my head
that if you've got an odd number of
chapters,
the middle chapter then is the important the
crux of the matter to which you're driving.
I so I I think I see doing
that. I saw sort of braid structure.
So you begin, the first 3 chapters are
really the biographies of 3
poor southern boys,
really?
They are not Bourgeois.
No none of the 3 characters that you
use are of, the member of the rising
Bourgeois, the new South of Henry Grady New
South,
they're poor country boys. And yet, of course,
then you take their bio,
and then you weave other things into it.
So could you... Before we get to anything
else before we get to those 3 poor
boys,
Could we talk about how you settled on
this structure?
Yeah. The book is really, as you mentioned,
the intersection of
of lives that were more powerful
than even they really is at the time.
You have
the
the rising power of 1 of reverend King's
most interesting and successful young lieutenant and a
reverend T y Rogers.
Who king trained personally when he was pastor
her dexter avenue in Montgomery.
He comes to Tu under the mandate to
democrat and integrate the city.
The reason that's such an important mission
is that Tu hosts
the home of the imperial wizard of a
clan, Robert Shelton,
who for years had quarterback
acts of terror across the south
from his office and home in Tu.
You also have a police chief of the
same vein of a bull honor
in Birmingham or a Jim Clark
in in Selma that is an individual who's
desperate
to use whatever power he has.
To keep the lid on
segregation.
So these 3 individuals
form a kind of
violent chore that happens in 19 64
and plays out in the streets of Tu.
And its value is as many fold On
the 1 hand, King would invest resources in
Tu
because he knew of the enormous symbolic value
of integrating
the home of the clan leader.
At the same time, he had been in
Tu
in 19 56 to preach a sermon. He
never returned.
Because as he wrote locals here, he was
terrified for the violence of the city.
Tu for generations have been among the most
violent, Not only in Alabama,
but in the entire cell.
There are over a hundred lynch in the
Tu county area by itself.
And the city and the county commissioners themselves
had created
a very tightly braid infrastructure of Jim Crow
such that for the slightest fractions,
individuals, black individuals to be put in jail,
put in the comp lisa and and find
themselves working on road crews for months of
night years.
In many ways,
king recognize recognized that breaking
the grip of segregation in the clan in
Tu. So would send a signal to the
movement in 19 64,
that
the Sc and the movements power is growing.
To integrate Tu
was integrate 1 of the great citadel,
of segregation evil in the deep south.
So so I wanna go through those those...
Those personalities and those issues. And let's begin
with t y Rogers,
who is
those who dies young,
and
is therefore not known the way we know
Jesse Jackson
or John Lewis
certainly or Ralph Abe for that matter. Certainly,
he would, I think
be known the way that they were all
of them
you know, Jackson because of his longevity accepted,
all of them
overshadowed by Kings,
personality and sort of status,
but Rogers is extraordinary.
He is, obviously,
he is a case for a certain kind
of merit. He is just so damn smart.
That even in segregated
Alabama, he is able to push himself forward
through black education and rise to eventually
king's own notice
Yeah. Reverend T Rogers is
that black civil rights leader during the movement
that no 1 knows about everyone should.
In part of
that is because he died at 35 in
a car accident. And at that time, he
was the head of the National affiliates for
the Sc
just 1 of the highest positions on the
mas head. He was
climbing the ranks
to take over the Sc sci when he
when he when he was killed but when
he when he passed.
But Rogers grew up,
Dirt pour in About 70 miles Southwest of
Tu.
But from early age, he was recognized as
being a genius.
He he moved through public school very, very
quickly. He went to Alabama state college.
Which was then the the beacon
of black intellectual life and the state and
across much of the south.
And there at Alabama state,
He fell into the spell of Reverend king.
A alabama state is very close its campus
to Dexter Avenue.
And when King took over dexter,
he he came to note t y
because t y was head of most of
the some of the main religious organizations on
campus.
And
Reverend canyon immediately noticed
2 wise brilliance and his passion and began
to mentor him.
Eventually, he invited t wide to study with
him every Sunday in his study,
He then eventually
would annoy t y as a... As a
minister.
He would host his installation sermon at Dexter
He gave t y his first
position as a clerical as his assistant pastor
at Dexter.
He placed t y. After graduating from Alabama
state and and serving with him at decks,
we placed him a cro seminary, where King
had gone to get his
degree.
Then can call him back
to Alabama and said I need you. I
need you to integrate Tu.
Rogers came back in part because he wanted
as he told his mother, he heard the
cries at the before he wanted to be
part of the solution.
To segregation, but he also wanted a stage.
He wanted to become a national figure in
civil rights.
And he like King believed that integrating Tu
would give him that stage would give him
the notoriety he sought to become a national
spokesperson,
for
integration.
So it's no surprise and Red Rogers moved
to Tu,
king in 19 63 returns to the city
he had avoided for 8 years
and preach installation sermon
and put Tu in Alabama on alert that
the movement was coming and reverend t rod
would lead it.
He also pledged the resources of the Sc,
which is an important piece because 2 came
not simply as a baptist minister, but as
a baptist minister, was an necessary for Revere
king, and all of King's money, all of
King's power all of King's connections.
So very shortly, reverend King is sending
Ct Vivian Ralph Abe,
Jesse Jackson to support to leading counsel.
The movement in Tu elusive.
But 1 of the gifts that reverend Rogers
had was it was a speaker.
People who remember him say you could close
your eyes, and you would think Reverend King
was speaking to you or preaching in the
church.
He had the ability to rise people, out
of their chairs and convince them that this
was their moment. This was their time to
March to pick it to demand their freedom.
Not surprisingly several years later,
in 19 65,
when king is marching from Selma to Montgomery.
Rev Rogers meets it in Montgomery. Is 1
of the featured speakers on the stairs of
the Alabama capital.
And there with king addresses, the crowds and
the Tv cameras.
It promises the world
that Tu instead of Alabama have had it
with the leadership of George Wallace have had
it with what he called in 19 65,
the legacy of police brutality.
So Reverend Rogers
was like king almost every perspective. He sounded
like he was trained liking king. He aspire
to greatness light king.
The only tragedy here is that his life
was cut short and a train or or
other car in outside of Atlanta. And in
the early 19 seventies.
Could could you describe him a little bit
more? He's a he's a beam pole of
them man.
Who likes to walk fast and eat fast
and drive fast.
Right. That's... There's are some of the things
that stay with me about them. Yep.
So Reverend Rogers from a a young child
was a bundle of energy. His mother used
to worry where he was because he was
always running around the house. Always...
Preaching the people wherever would listen to him.
As an adult, he would he would he
would smoke all the time. He loved to
drive fat, and people were terrified driving with
him because he never kept his eyes on
the robe, but he's always speaking to the
person in the front seat, looking at them
as he rode.
He was famous in the local neighborhoods in
Tu because she would hear his car roaring,
you know, 3, 400 feet away You would
jump back from the curb because you were
worried, never knew what too I was gonna
be driving. He was always weaving down the
roads.
But this intensity of this passion.
He brought that to his his his world
of civil rights leadership.
He was the 1 banging on doors asking
people to join them in the movement.
He was the 1 who was demanding that
Black should walk and pro. Guys even though
the police were threatening, even though the clan
was threatening his family, even though he was
getting
signals from much more conservative ministers across the
south slow things down.
He felt as his mother said that his
time on Earth was limited and he had
to accomplish
what God had put him on this planet
to do, which in his mind was to
bring justice to the poor and the dis,
to bring justice of the people that he
represented.
Now T Rogers is is
might be a leader of in tu and
at a bloody to Tuesday, but we do
not want to give the impression that he
is alone carrying everyone on his back.
There is a Tu citizens for action committee,
which pre dates his arrival, And we should
be precise here. The Blaze Tuesday is, as
I said on 06/09/1964.
Rogers is installed or arrives in Tu early
64
and is not installed officially into what April,
late March? Correct. He's installed in in March
of 64.
And what he inherit
is a fairly well developed local civil rights
movement.
For several years, ministers had begun to
put in the infrastructure of protest.
They have protested a local the local bus
company. They begun to pick it,
1 of 2 wise predecessor,
he rev Hertz at a local
church. He had been the head of the
C for the state of Alabama.
So you see
the
beginnings of a of a powerful
set of ideas and mechanics that would be
necessary
for any kind of rights movement. So Rev
Rogers inherit a fairly mature organization
and then his job becomes to
expand it to energize it to drive it
forward.
Another piece of this, and this is what
makes the story of Tu is so important
is the role of black women.
As structure I structure the book according to,
in many ways, male leadership.
But that's only because there wasn't a dominant
woman
black woman in the community that was up
the same stature of any of these individuals.
But what I try to do is represent
these woman on every page that I can.
They're the ones that are raising money. They're
the ones that are marketing. They're often the
ones that are. Reverend Rogers most fe disciples.
They're the ones that the local high school
or the local H still that are bringing
people together and bringing them to Marches.
So Rem Rogers also is inheriting
this powerful group of the young people,
often composed most of the young black women
who are eager.
To test the boundaries
of segregation and are desperate
to claim their their place
alongside democracy here in Alabama.
Let's
talk about William Hertz for just a second.
My antenna kind of
tremble when that came across him because, you
know, like you, I used to claim on
my union card that I was historian of
of American religion.
And so it's very interesting to me that
he's not only a lutheran, but Lutheran church
Missouri sin.
So in other words, he's a member of
an out of the way subs of an
out of the way sec within American religious
life.
I've heard both presbyterian and Roman Catholic theologian
and historians
I don't know if they were reading each
other, but comment more that the natural
religious state of an American is baptist.
That's whether they're humanitarian or buddhist or
you presbyterian
overall really baptist
Mh, for reasons of american urbanization.
And it's very interesting that Hertz,
missouri soon as I understand it had had
had missions in the North Alabama Pine woods.
And I was wondering,
Her
basically gives
passes over the baton to Rogers.
He's
personally
and morally and emotionally and spiritually
exhausted and beat. He's been
doing this for, at least 4 years.
And
so there's that. But I also, you know,
I was wondering about
in the hierarchy of southern religion, there are
various types of baptist and there are other
people beneath them in in many towns. You
can see this just the way that the
churches are laid out.
And I was wondering to what extent
is it just more natural to have
a leader of a movement of any movement
in the south, but particularly the civil rights
movement, who is head of the largest African
black church
and
Tu rather than a person who represents kind
of, you know, are they Catholics?
You know, we're not really sure.
They're not real bad not baptist You know,
what's what's the what's the cultural power of
denomination and and even in the civil rights
movement, it's a huge topic. But I... I've
wondered about that.
Well, rev Hurt himself
confessed that
you only do so much in Alabama because
he wasn't a baptist.
He came to the city or into the
state, fresh from,
seminary and fresh from being involved in the
movement in North Carolina.
And he for a while injected
the state and this community in Tu with
an enormous energy.
He was the 1 that was demanding change.
He was organizing and pushing.
But he very quickly became a target for
the client.
Who identified him and began to terror him.
Her himself had nightmares.
He began to hear voices and and fear
that people were watching him. So she would
slip out of meetings in the back door
go through back windows because he was convinced
someone was in the meeting to kill him.
Eventually, the stress became so great.
That he confessed that his wife mis miscarriage
with her first child because he said of
the stress being a leader to being a
clan.
Or rather being the subject of K
entity and threats.
But Her later talked about, he wasn't a
baptist
So he'd never received a degree of respect
that a black baptist minister would.
I think in the end, what he did
was prepare
Tu and this part of the state of
Alabama, West Alabama. For someone like Reverend Rogers,
who came here with impeccable credential not only
he's 1 of kingsley of tenants, but he's
a local kid from an hour way, and
he's baptist.
He's used to the
the cadences
and the and the structures of the baptist
church. He's able to motivate within
that culture.
This is something that rep Her never could
do.
I think rev Her needs to be remembered
as a pioneering lutheran minister in Alabama who
sets the stage
passes the Baton to a young
baptist minister he was able to capitalize on
what rev Hertz
had done.
But he also reminds I think of the
enormous level of violence that any minister in
Alabama or elsewhere
suffered when they
pursue the course justice.
Rev Hurts never forget yet the sense that
he lost his first child
to the distress of being a civil rights
leader to being in the cross of of
the clan.
Even when Rev Rogers came, rev Her vote
maintain sort of a second seat position because
he was worried. He was terrified that would
the clan
cost him his second child. Would his clan
cost him his family.
So in many ways,
Tu needed 2 ministers.
1 was a baptist rubber router, but 1
was this lutheran minister who had energy and
had vision,
but in the end
was crippled by the threat of violence against
him.
There are other people involved in this story.
I wanna make sure before we get to
the end to mention, Reverend Lint,
but also,
Joe Male and the defenders, which sounds like
a band name,
but
is actually literally
a Korean war combat veteran.
Who is a union organizer or a local
plant and who...
Well, I should say there are a lot
of guns in this book as I said
in the notes. For a story of not...
For astoria that we, you know, we might
associate this with non violence and the appropriation
of Mah Gandhi ideas and learning,
self
aggregation and and and and
any close reading of letter from Birmingham jail
will give you 1 view of
the movement.
Yeah. This is a different view from the
ground of what the movement is like. And
that somehow as I said to you, this
apparent opposition between non violence and self defense
is not an opposition when you're looking at
from the ground level. There's 1... There's many
movie worthy lines in the book and 1
of them is a woman looks around at
1 gathering and says we need more guns.
And Joe Male provides he provides the firepower
and the tactical acumen to use it. Yeah.
1 of the many lessons of the movement
in Tu
is to give us pause when we divide
ideas of non violence
from ideas of harm black self defense. In
Tu they come together
hand glove.
1 of the many tragedies of 06/09/1964,
this this is the largest invasion of a
black church by law enforcement.
In the goal of law enforcement is to
bring the move to an end and it
works.
For the next month,
you see the cessation civil rights protests and
is part of the world.
But the same time you see the
liberation,
the knit together of Arm black self defense.
Joe M, as you mentioned is a
is it's a Korean veteran,
and he'd never walked through the streets of
Tu unless he was armed.
In his mission after Buddy Tuesday was to
arm the black community.
He would recruit people to him saying this
can never happen again. We might not break
the color line and never again, will the
police and clans,
sack our community,
attack our people in this way.
What you see going forward after 06/09/1964
is that black citizens are patrol their neighborhoods,
People are sitting on their front porch with
shotgun.
Young girls and boys are being taught by
their fathers how to fire weapons. And it's
necessary because you see
clan battles in which blacks and k are
are exchanging gunfire.
And you see the the the need
for armed black self defense
ward off future
levels of violence.
So in many ways, Tu
again, it draws together 2 different themes in
the in the literature of the movement. 1
is
violent
harm black cell defense
alongside of non nonviolent social protest.
These 2 things can exist apart from 1
another in West Alabama. Otherwise, there would be
no move.
And Reverend lint in the barber shop. We
wanna get away from the sort of...
This is not S, the entertainer and the
barber shop. This is
have to put in the notes 2 notes,
the Great book and knights as a razor,
which speaks of the the importance of the
Barber shop in about the Ante bell South
in, United States.
Listeners might remember that Michael Be when we
talked about Lincoln and his relationship with Blacks.
Lincoln's probably best friend is a haitian immigrant
to owned a Barber shop in Springfield. It's
1 of Lincoln's paul bears.
The barber shop is a center of
black dignity.
It... Before the italians start pushing them out.
I have to say in in in and
somewhere Regret.
Of of the of the business,
and Reverend Clinton expresses that beautifully. We'll talk
more about him at the end, but we
need to talk about it. Hit now.
Ronan lincoln is the muse of the book.
He'd been my barber for several years.
And he converted his barber shop
into a center
of living memory. He had been part of
the effort to des decelerate the city a
dedicated much of his light afterwards
to preserving the history
of the local movement particularly of bloody Tuesday.
So he converted his barber shop into a
public museum. He preserved every picture he could
find from the movement. He preserved every single
document that he had. And he was sit
in his barber chair and to the left
of it was a copy of 1 of
his poll tax receipts.
And in case you miss it he blew
it up to a 2 by 3 foot
host or and made look at it on
the mirror.
And his goal there was people can never
forget what happened.
He spent most of his adult life asking
people to walk with him on this journey
of remembrance and understanding.
And during my haircut, he would often share
this story. And then 1 time as I
talk about the book I mentioned and while
I might wanna write a book about this
someday,
And once he heard that,
he would whisper every time I was with
though, how's that book on? When's that book
coming out. And it began a long friendship.
But it also began the beginnings of what
it took to write this book was to
create a new archive. And he wouldn't share
not only what he collected, but his friendships
with people
across the state. He would call people and
ask me to meet with them. He would
call people that he was was here, he
would cut and ask him to bring documents
to me to share them with me.
But he was also the person that forced
a different understanding of what this book could
do.
He was thrilled that someone would spend the
time to write a narrative. But he wanted
more than that. He wanted the story not
to remain
between the pages of the book, but to
somehow influence how people live their life outside
the barber shop.
So together, we helped organize a civil rights
trail guide here that pay testimony
or witness to the movement locally.
We helped to develop a black history class
that was taught here in the city and
across the county.
And this is what he wanted. He wanted
historians
not to begin and end their days by
looking at their pros? But can you take
that internal outlook? Can you engage the public
landscape? Can you engage the public pitch vacation
community
such that his story or what he would
call his people story
could be better known. The goal always for
him was not only to
revealed history, but he really believed that by
talking about the leadership that he and others
embodied,
people could live differently. They could live more
humbly more honestly.
And for him the story of the movement
was the promise of a better south.
The rem that himself was a key character,
he was the 1 who was most often
in close contact with Reverend King or attorney
General Robert Kennedy constantly pho these individuals asking
for help and keeping them abreast of the
violence that they were experiencing.
That was a critical piece because later during
the movement, the federal government, itself becomes a
key actor
helping Tu loose in the late 19 64
after the passage of the Civil Rights Act,
helping to break the color line here in
the city. The rubber Lint was a key
person helping organize that.
Let's move on to
2 the 2 other characters
that framed the beginning of the book.
Robert Shelton, the K.
As I was saying in my notes,
I often see the twentieth century south through,
literary
lenses and through the novels I've read. And
so I tend to always j
the, say, the flannery o'connor,
bent over,
God haunted
hell bound people,
in
worst of circumstances
with sort of the
Sa Walker Percy South. Mh.
Which is golf courses
and Buick dealerships. And
rented former slave quarters for people looking for
a weekend retreat from New Orleans.
And and
yet
Shelton combines those 2 seemingly different sounds.
We've got this very odd looking
white filler. I mean, he looks like a
k with even without his hood.
He looks like a stereotype, it but, he
looks like a an extra from Mississippi burning,
he looks like he looks like the dream
of a good white per... Northern progressive of
what all southern are like.
Yeah, at the same time, Walker Percy would
love this. He's a salesman for B f
Good rich.
He's he works for
a yankee rubber products manufacturer.
Could we talk about that his background? And
am I right in that he has radical
by being in military during integration. I mean,
everyone gets radical by something.
Yeah.
Robert Shelton grew up
in in this area.
And
he joined the military
instead of going to college.
And there, he came the terms or came
face to face with the prospect of what
an integrated america could look like. He saw
blacks having very similar privileges to white soldiers.
And when he came home,
it completely shook his understanding of the world.
He grown up in a place where the
call line was strictly enforced, and the clan
would make sure the blacks and whites queue
that line.
So when he came home, he he followed
his grandfather and his father and began to
study clan doctor and there he found his
calling
that he would become a leader
to reinforce what he had learned as a
young man, which is simply that
segregation problem salvation for white people.
And then he would spend much of his
life attempting to make the raw violence of
a plan respectable.
So he would wear a 3 piece to
work. He would wear a tie and slip
back his hair where a sign ring. But
at the very same time he's quarterback
local and national efforts to beat back the
civil rights movement.
So it represents a moment in the history
of white supremacy where you have the brutality
a violent life resistance being cloth
in the outfits and the and the fancy
cars
of a bank president.
And not surprisingly,
Shelton took up office in the most prestigious
building
west of of Birmingham, this the small skyscraper
scraper
here in Tu
to from his 4 floors through room sweet
would organize his plans
and would meet sick offense and journalists
Regal them with stories of, you know, the
plans promise for America, which was to restore
goodness and to restore purity
among the races.
So many ways it seems a chilling figure
because he attempted to grade
along legacy
of
segregation and its violence
with,
you, with the the the the suited business
person,
and to try to give a clan a
new image. In the end he wasn't successful
because he was unable to b
his love and lust for violence.
But for much of his career as the
head of the clan and National has the
clan,
He was portrayed as the future of a
violent white resistance, which was occurring within the
the costume of a bank president.
Is
is it
my perception accurate
that the clan and,
white?
Attempts to, white attempts to maintain white supremacy
we're splinter
by even by 19 60, let alone, but
certainly by 19 64,
I mean, the White citizens councils, they all
look the same to us now,
but that it... But from a historians point
of view, that would be a, I think,
a big error to see him as the
same. What they indicate to me is weakness,
is that the the movement becomes stronger while
the white
supremacy becomes weaker in multiple ways. We'll talk
about some more... When we talk about way
mer.
Yeah. So
Sheldon
fails to recognize
changes in the political landscape within white supremacy.
Because shortly after a brown decision you have
the growth of the white citizens movement which
is basically country club segregation is
who want to use
education and the law
to maintain
segregation.
And they're growing lea of
wild acts of violence,
the cross burning or
the assassination or
the severe beating.
Sheldon as he comes to power, he believes
that particularly in the aftermath of a violence
business upon freedom arrives.
Know, those young black and white
individuals who crossed the south particularly Alabama on
buses and and we integrate them and we're
and are visited with enormous violence. Thinks that
be tokens,
his understanding of violence, which is that it
works.
It's it's it's supported wiley by the public.
He misses tragically in some ways as as
a leader
that that's growing out of favor. Many of
the most powerful lives believe in segregation, but
not the violence of segregation that he does.
Also his his sort of blind
devotion 2 using this sword
to maintain his power
makes it difficult to see the ways that
blacks themselves are... Not integrating but organizing pairing
for strikes. So he misses the organizational efforts
his own backyard.
And that's in part why Tu have become
so violent because he he's see sonny recognized
that his own hometown,
Lax of marshal enormous
resources to break the cup line. So he
brings to bear all the power he can
to try to stop that, including,
you know, basically ruining the most powerful black
church in West Alabama.
We... I mean, we should say that Shelton
has been is the 1
almost ind
as a question if historic if not legal
fact.
Who's organized the bombing campaign in Birmingham
and the acts of of terrorism that have
been rocking Birmingham in the previous years.
He's in Tu but he's orchestrating events throughout
Alabama and the south or in inc them
encouraging them supporting them.
So for him then to see suddenly turn
see that just a few blocks from him,
his office is right near the new courthouse.
And to see that that new courthouse is
now the center of a of a a
movement. Silver rights movement in his hometown, it
is it it rocks his world and and
in all senses of of the phrase.
That's right. It's it's difficult to imagine any
large act violent white resistance
in their early 60 without imagining Robert Sheldon
being part of it.
If not leading it then certainly lending is
a scent to it.
He's the most powerful white supremacy in the
country.
In
the mid 19 sixties.
Now, eventually, he falls from office, but at
the time of
Civil rights Act or the voting rights back,
he's the individual
that the Fbi is most worried about. And
he leads he's in Tu.
And he's he's he's he's
staring eyeball on eyeball with rev y Rogers
over
whether that his home hometown will become integrator
or not?
Well, let's get to the third person of
this str william mer who is it may
raise the least interesting.
And I noticed you have a hard time
figure out in a way.
It's hard to figure out what william mer
wants. I mean, here is a man who
does in an
unleash this violence that suppress the movement for
a month.
And, yeah, he seems like such a blob
of jello to nail against a tree
he likes Elvis. Okay. Great.
Who doesn't like Elvis.
But he
he seems to be a sort of a
don't rock the boat segregation.
But
comparing him to bull connor,
Jeez I never thought of anything
positive to say about Bo connor, but Bo
congress is the courage of his convictions. Does
William Am? I'm not certain
if he is
he's he doesn't seem, you know, it's like,
I know Bulk connor.
William Mer no bulk connor.
And yet,
he does unleash the violence of Bloody Tuesday.
So I I... I'm left away of all
the people in the book that I don't
really get.
As a psychological portrait, which is, you know
okay. It's not history. As a bio portrait.
I don't get mer.
What's more important to me is the way
is you've alluded to that local governments can
create... It's not just states who create regimes.
It's local governments with states can create
insane
regimes of local control and scrutiny and mer
is the representative of that.
I think you're right.
Chief Mari is not a bull Connor in
the sense that he's seeking his spotlight. Is
when we come
a very public
or elected official for that matter.
But Mari learned from Bull connor. He went
to Birmingham,
a when bull Connor attempted to
defeat Reverend king in the spring of 19
63 and
Mari took notes. And he saw what worked
you saw that the use of dogs and
water hoses on young young people.
But what mer represents I think is
the
unacceptable nature
of violence,
by which I mean, he was comfortable
escalating
violent white resistance. He just didn't want to
become public
record.
So in many ways, he's that police chief
that is
terribly happy,
prose a regime of racial terror for generations.
He just doesn't want people to get said
about. He doesn't want draw attention to it.
Yeah. In such as his confidence
that he's able to manufacture this you know,
this siege of a black church,
which is as violent as any during the
civil rights movement.
He does it in a way that he's
then later surprised that people are paying attention
to them. Must have said, well, this is
this is how it works in the cell.
You know, for generations, we've
controlled and restrained how black actors
can lead their lives. This is our effort
is simply to to red withdraw that boundary
in a way that works as it has
historically for generations.
Mari in some which is the most chilling
character in the book because he's the 1
that that that that is least affected by
public perceptions.
Or least interested in public power. He simply
wants to maintain the south quietly as that
there's always been. And he has the resources
to do so whether it through
a city or county commission that is just
throwing money at him
to limit black protests and black radical.
So many ways, I think he represents sudden
law enforcement.
So often we focus on the Bull connor
the Jim Clark who bose who seek the
media
and seek the spotlight to draw attention to
how they prosecute black radicals.
M prosecute black radicals
as violent those 2 individuals. He just doesn't
want the newspapers trailing him. There's something chilling
about that. This is this sort of the
unacceptable nature a police leadership. Let me be
as violent as I can, let me keep
it out of the papers,
and this will be the way that we'll
advance
Tu going forward.
And I guess, part of this is also
he's
he's he's he's a reader of Max Weber.
He wants to keep the means of violence
in his hands not into Robert Shelton. So
I guess that's he'll he'll d
Robert Shelton, but it's... I I would... He's
not a.
Is he a clan member? I mean, what
is... What are these connections to Shelton What
connect... I, there are plenty of clan people
around the church? Believe Tuesday? But I just
don't get the vibe that from the book,
you don't say explicitly
that he has any interest in
sort of the shelton approach. I think he
wants to keep violence to... He wants to
be the 1 who uses violence.
Ideological, he shares the k goals of using
violence to main pain
segregation, but he missed mistrust anyone on and
himself to prosecute that violence.
But he's also presiding over a police force
that is infected with K man. I give
you people who talked about riding with police
officers, journalists.
And
they they couldn't believe that. They'd be on
a ride out, and the police officer would
check his watch. Realized he's running late. He
pull into a clan meeting, go to his
trunk put on his robe, go to the
meeting, come out an hour later, but the
road back into the trunk and... Resume his
patrols.
This was the easy boundaries
between the clan and the and the police.
And in many ways,
chief Mari recognized that he shared those goals.
He just didn't want to share the power
of leading
the assault against black radical, black activism.
So let's go to the events
briefly,
as we said, Rod... T y Rogers is
installed at first African Baptist in March,
Martin luther a King
preach his
installation, ceremony.
And then things move very quickly.
So briefly, how do we get what are
the the lead up the preparation of the
ground for bloody for Bloody Tuesday?
So reverend king comes to Tu loo, March
of 63 installs Reverend Rogers
and 1 64.
I'm sorry. He comes to he comes to
Tu.
In March of 19 64
and installs his lieutenant, rev t y Rogers
and annoy him as the movements leader.
Over the course of the next 3 months,
Reverend King throws everything he has
to in support of of rev rod and
local movement.
Every major leader
that works the reverend king comes the Tu.
Whether it be, as I mentioned earlier, Ct
vivian or Jesse Jackson,
Ralph Pa, andrew Young. They're here to provide
support and leadership and energy. And over the
3 months between March and June of 64
the local community is organizing. Their numbers are
growing, their protests
against segregated stores.
Are are getting more complicated and and and
and more lively. They're marching across Greens Avenue,
which is the commercial quarter that that runs
through the saves. Also the color line.
And they're marching up and down with signs
demanding
equal rights
Alongside of this is a gradual rise and
violent white resistance.
These black
protesters are being shot with pe guns.
They're being doused with acid, but would then
called mustard oil, but it was a type
of solution that would burn this skin and
tear off epidermis.
There also night raids, people were being beaten
returning from church meetings.
And so you see this gradual rising attention
so that question is only when would these
2 parties come into conflict in a in
a powerful way,
black activists
with violent white resistance?
And finally on 06/09/1964,
that's the day. Rev rogers organizers the what
would be the largest protest
the city and that part the say they
ever seen,
over 500 people marching from the church,
a roughly a half a mile to courthouse
house and their protest,
separate facilities.
They never make it.
So how... What happens on that day? I
mean, how does it... The the whole everything's
been laid for it.
And then they
decide that they will gather in the church
first before making the March and what's what's
the plan? What's the what's the... What what
are they hoping to do?
So black demonstrators gathered at first African baptist
early in the morning of of June 9.
And there they pray and they plan and
they imagine themselves
finally walking from their church to the north...
To the new courthouse
integrated then,
but they also know that almost certainly there
will be violence.
Because as they were coming to the church,
they saw
police officers,
sheriff's deputies,
k,
d white citizens.
Gain warden,
police officers from the from around the area
who called in on a local aid mutual
aid pack to prevent this march.
And as these individuals prayed, the police presence
grew.
And if people outside began a cat call,
and and and dare the black protesters to
come out.
When they did come out, the police very
quickly
put into police cruisers, the 5 main leaders,
including Reverend Rogers.
They put them in police cruisers right side
the church so they could watch what came
next.
And what came next was as bloody a
day as a movement has ever seen.
Police officers very quickly
mow down protesters as they sat on the
steps sit in the steps of the church.
They forced them back into the church.
And then they move to the side of
the church and blew out the windows with
a fire hose, and then filled the church
with hundreds of canisters of tear gas.
Very soon thereafter after blacks ran out of
the church, disorganized soaked
screaming, and then police again visited upon them
with
ax handles.
With Billy Clubs with cal prod, with the
butt ends of revolver,
hundreds and hundreds were injured that day.
Close to hundred went to jail.
But it was a scene that has never
left those who were there.
The survivors talk about the screaming,
the amount of blood with outside the church.
Many ran to the closest barber shop with
his Rev lint barber shop,
and their Rebel
couldn't find enough towels
to stop the bleeding of the children and
their men and the women who came there
for aid.
Many people were terrified of going to a
local hospital
because they figured the client would find them
there. So they came to this barber shop
which became an aid station more or less,
and people rushed to help and to provide
aid there.
This was Bloody Tuesday, and this was a
day that
very quickly became the most important day in
the lives of
citizens at Black citizens of Tu and West
Alabama.
If the goal was as Chief Mara wanted
to be to stop the movement. It worked.
Because Reverend Rogers recognized he couldn't
risk heading people killed like he did that
day. He was also terrified of losing his
leadership position. Who would want to follow a
man that kept putting
children men and women in in harm way.
So Reverend Rogers stopped the protest for several
weeks.
Tried to reassess what
what he needed. What he needed in the
end was 2 things. Help from Reverend king.
Unfortunately, Reverend King did not come the Tu
elusive that day. He said what they said
Augustine and continued a protest that he begun
their several weeks earlier.
He sent to Tu loose, James Bevel is
Steed. Bevel of course is 1 of King's
most trusted lieutenant. And was 1 of the
architects of the Birmingham campaign.
Bevel came to Tu that evening
along with 2 young
individuals a raven Harold Middle broke from tennessee
and Richard Boone from Montgomery.
But those 3 were gel almost immediately.
And so in many ways, the movement had
ended before it had really begun in some
ways.
What changed
in the end
was
president Johnson
passed and signed the Civil Rights Act.
And that began to empower local leaders with
a new set of tools.
You see the move in West, Alabama start
to look toward the courts, the federal courts
to demand
hell.
But you'll also see very quickly that the
Department of Justice targets Tu
has a place to
enforce a civil the rights eye.
So Tu becomes 1 of the very first
test cases for attorney General of Kennedy
to prosecute white merchants who refuse
to serve black customers.
At the same time, you see the Fbi
start up an enhanced
discredit campaign against Robert Shelton.
That is they begin to
use newspapers and create false advertisements, and they
they mail letters around the state accusing sheldon.
Of stealing money and being a core leader.
And we we should... This... This is a
classic sort of c intel pro.
Program over the time.
You know, as I said, if if mer
doesn't like the powers of violence being held
by the people, just imagine how Jay or
Hoover feel about it. He's, like, we are
am having powers of violence.
So
and
they work with a natural grain of paranoia
Yeah you find in in Shelton and and
the clan. It's so it's a rich it's
a rich and fertile feel.
So that works.
Right? What's interesting here is that this works.
Right? The federal government's effort to
discredit Robert Sc or to
bring and threaten to bring lawsuits against these
merchants who refuse to certain black customers. It
begins to work.
Right? I'm sheldon begins to lose control over
the his local followers in
in Tu. The same time these white merchants
begin to recognize that
this might be the end of of of
of their ability to
not serve black pasta without penalty.
And then what you had is the beginning
of
or the the restart of the movement.
And in particular it focuses on
transportation,
there's a large scale
effort to integrate the local bus system. This
is significant because
Reverend and Rogers has lean his effort. He
had watched Reverend king
during his efforts in Montgomery integrate the buses
there. He replicates that in Tu
and organizes a near complete boycott of a
local bus system.
And it breaks the bus system within 5
months.
The way... We we have to say, I
mean, from a month of seeming of of
this vials blades, Tuesday seeming to win.
The crazy part of the story is that
by Christmas of 64,
The movement has won. Yep. In Tu.
And this is combination of of federal intervention,
but also, it's the role of arm black
cell defense.
Right.
The most successful part of the movement after
Bloody Tuesday
is the effort in black citizens to literally
fight fire with fire.
So the client's ability to
engage
lack citizens without penalty without
without any kind of torque goes away. There's
gun battle after gun battle between black citizens
and the clan. You can't drive across the
west side, which is the area that blacks
lived in without seeing black men patrol the
areas whether in car or on foot.
They're they're prepared for battle. And this is
a is not only a message, but it's
a reality for the planet and for the
police that no longer will be able to
engage in a type of sack of a
black sacred space and the and the enormous
violence visited upon hundreds of black people again.
It's just not gonna happen.
Who this combination of Armed black self defense
with Reverend king flooding the area with new
resources with the federal government targeting Tu
this makes Tu,
a new place, such that by the end
of 19 64,
you have the successful
integration of the bus system. And in fact,
you drive the bus system out of business.
It's 1 of the most powerful lessons of
the movement that you see this integration of
and local forces
that prosecute
in sort of a successful ending at this
point. It's not a rosy ending because it
takes more than a decade for the school
system and the city county commissioners to integrate
these power structures.
But it is
a victory of sorts. And it's 1 that
local black citizens today still talk about that
they were able to defeat the clan. They
were able
to integrate the bus system. They were able
to lift themselves up from the depths of
violence and despair on bloody Tuesday to move
forward and with new tools,
prosecute,
eventually win major battles in their lives.
Yes. I I was thinking about victories
and Ambiguous us and otherwise,
you asked Robert Shelton on 01/01/1964,
what his dream of 01/01/1965
would be.
It wouldn't be the way it was.
It was un understandably a victory from the
perspective. It was a defeat un
a defeat from the
perspective of the most of the militants,
on behalf of white supremacy. I was also
thinking as I had said to you when
as we began recording,
how often I wrote reconstruction in the margins,
and how in so many ways, this is
of a vision of what reconstruction kind of
was at certain points or could have been,
of, this is what the anti reconstruction is
feared
was black union vet army veterans
defending their communities
against,
white supremacist violence.
Hamburg, South Carolina would have been different if
they had all had spencer or Henry repeating
rei, rifles.
During that Pa,
yeah. So Wilmington, North Carolina and, but 18
96.
The this is
this is what Shelton his il and mari
and his ill have always feared
is
a proud people able to defend themselves, and
their families
against
the violence that would seek to continue to
dominate and destroy them.
Yep. I think you're absolutely right That 1
of the the many powerful
lessons
of bloody Tuesday
is the absolute necessity for blacks to arm
themselves and defend themselves.
But I also think that it's not exceptional.
I think in every southern town,
you find stories like this. Yeah. And 1
of the tragedies of how we've told the
movement.
How do we try a sense that King's
message of non violence
need not be fully explored and celebrated
but it should not overs shadow
1 of its necessary
companions, which is the ability of Blacks and
willingness in Blacks to defend their lives
on a regular basis.
I often think that we'd we defend the
movement sometimes of this power.
Of the necessity black armed self defense. When
we only focus on king words. Or we...
I mean, or we give it, we give
stoke Car Michael, a greater credit than he
deserves.
The the... As if the black panthers were
somehow
first
to say, hey, we're gonna defend ourselves. It
wasn't it wasn't and it wasn't
Malcolm max either. It we wasn't an nation
of Islam. It wasn't the the panthers,
it was people like,
Joe M.
And and and there's hundreds of people like
him. Whose stories have yet to be adequately
told integrated, I imagine,
who who believed in... Who believed in the
tactics of non violence but we're not willing
to throw themselves on a burning altar for
the benefit of to motivate northern whites
to come to their aid. Let's put it
that way.
I think many of the black systems that
I spoke with, they believe deeply in the
in the power of non violence that change
one's hearts.
But they also lived in a community and
it grew up in families
that had suffered might at the hand of
violent white resistance.
Yeah.
It's not a black citizen and I spoke
to, and I spoke to hundreds for this
book.
That didn't grow up hearing stories
of Lynch.
Or hearing stories of of slack family members
gone missing for too long or forever
because they tried to rise up and do
the right thing.
It's not surprising that people would be attracted
to Griffin King's words, but also understood that
they had to arm themselves to protect themselves.
Because history taught that
that is what in the end to protect
them. It wasn't only King's words, but it
would be their guns.
That would force the police to stop and
and didn't think before they would invade a
house.
The other part of this is like, know
is
long been in the style the teaching of
the lost cause, which attempts to sanitize
slavery.
There's also been the of the civil rights
movement that is mostly focused it as a
blood
revolution. That king changed the hearts of men
and women in this bite and they were
able to,
almost
open the doors to integration. Just not true.
It limits
the reality of black radical lives was was
not just still a philosophical in the sense
that king preached on violence.
But there was a live reality of arm
black self defense. That was just as radical
and just as necessary.
To move forward with the civil rights moving
through parts of the rural south.
Mh.
And not to teach our children these 2
intertwined themes
non nonviolent social
protest with violent
harm black's self defense to see how these
these work together
to produce the civil rights movement. Some of
that we've all our children have be go
forward.
Yes. It's something we...
I think we discuss in emails, I... Often
when I used to
do the Mara history survey, and I would
talk about... I would try to contrast store
geographical approaches, I would contrast a Charles Marsh
God's long summer with David Chappell don't of
hope. Mh. Not necessarily for the reason to
either
Charles or David intended. But the
the
necessity of
revolution it seems to me is to have
a muddled middle,
which is un understandable
for either
the radical fringes.
And,
Charles
speaking more as a theologian, I think, sees
the the white quiet. Let's call them.
As
prophetic judged, and who am might have say
he's wrong.
On the other hand,
Charles Shelton hated white quiet too.
And as,
David has pointed out, others have pointed out,
you see the the increasing violence of the
clan and the creation of the white
movements
are
reactions to that quiet.
So,
that is not a satisfying... That is perhaps
not a morally satisfying historical narrative.
More than
it it's probably not satisfying to some to
to to to sort of degrade the memory
of king and of the non nonviolent movement
by focusing on these people who defend themselves.
I think kinda is more good. But I
also think it's true history.
I also think it I think it's I
think it more... I think it more,
approaches
has a greater sense of the truth.
I agree. In many ways.
Reverend Rogers himself who's won in clint closes
lieutenant. He come to with the needs of
armed self defense.
He's riding with some colleagues to Be
just outside of Birmingham and he finds himself
being killed by what he assumes as a
is a clan vehicle
and his driver and then named Jerry Martin
his armed.
And Martin tells him I do would rather
be caught by the clan
with a gun then by the police without
1.
And he's terror... And so Martin basically,
he's ready to engage in combat.
Able to escape.
But at that point, Reverend Rodney realized that
there's a need in his philosophy for Arm
black self defense.
He can't ask people to put their lives
on the line regularly
and and hope that the movement
will prosper.
Another other thing though is it's interesting,
up
Where the book ends.
He remembers it shaving and cutting the hair
of a of a local politician. This is
after the movement.
And as he... As this individual, this 1
an individual pace him, he says,
give us 50 years and we'll get it
all back.
So as we think about the movement and
how to explain his successes In many ways,
the battle moves to different places.
It's like, how do you teach about the
movement schools?
How do you decorate the public landscape? How
do memorial
civil rights heroes?
How do you begin to protect voting rights?
It strikes me that
Rev Lint when he passed
in 2020.
He went to his grave terrified because
there was ongoing battles
that were promised by this interaction with his
local white politician give us 50 years. We'll
take it all back.
Lint saw before we pass the idea of
history being
1 of the most powerful antidote
to the current crisis and politics of education,
Need to remember
struggle and try and over tragedy, but I
just lay it in a book, but make
sure it's taught in the churches in the
school, make sure the monuments
reflect the heroes.
Make sure
there's in need that when people walked down
the streets of Tu elusive. They understand the
kind of history that happened here, but it
wasn't sanitized and it wasn't
disappeared.
This is a theme like a repeated
time and time again that need to remember.
Let's finish with that.
You have now found yourself
since you took on Lit River Clinton's charge
and this mission
you've gone from being a civil war air
historian to a civil rights historian.
But in a specific place,
and you're engaging in the
Alabama memory project,
which is fascinating name because of, as I
was prepping in the notes for this and
I was having lunch with a friend here,
and he said to me,
something else, it was in a different release.
He said, you know, I I think I've
heard you say that memory is off of
the enemy of history.
And I said, oh, did? That's pretty smart.
That was pretty good.
And
and I know that is it's true. You
know, I... That often...
Often history is certainly the enemy of memory.
Let's the old Sky joke about the man
who said Scott had a great history before
the historians has got a hold of it.
And
and yet, you find yourself down the memory
business.
So how can historians
engage in preserving memory.
Usually when we do that, we end up
pissing everyone off.
Yeah. There's a reason this book took so
long. Right? It's
I
early on, it I had a really powerful
experience that was a black woman
who
in this case, had been very involved in
the movement, but she also had a lynch
in her family.
And she's older in her nineties.
And she got close to me, and she
thought me in the chest with her 4
finger and so Doctor Gig, I'm gonna tell
you something.
And you have got to believe me. But
You gonna find this in a newspaper, but
you have got to believe me. And then
she proceeded to talk about this horrible incident
or family, which a loved 1 had been
lynch.
But what I took from that was
the need to
Suspend perhaps traditional notions of proof of persuasion.
If I didn't believe her, that story of
enormous violence
would be lost.
But so would this... That her family's ability
to move on, Right? To sort of understand
to find solace to to trying to make
sense of what happened. They became civil rights
protesters.
I think I've found in my own work
that
The more time I I spend outside the
traditional academy,
the better my understanding of the cad becomes.
So what that means is that, I find
my own obligation as I move through the
profession
to include not simply the teaching of undergraduates
and the writing of professional history, but
to listen to those that live in community
near me. What I heard them say is,
will you help us tell a story
in our own words.
But also,
when I talk to Rep Lint about this.
And I would say, I'm working on my.
I don't have time to work with you
on a school curriculum. I don't have time
to talk to you about getting a monument
going.
He said something that stuck that's always stuck
with. He said,
what if no 1 reads your book? Time.
And I'm just like, well, what if more
reits spoke? Right? What he meant though was
that the book wasn't enough. At the moral
truth that any story that of power and
of struggle of sacrifice
can't be solely contained
in a hard cover. It needs to be
brought into the schools into the churches into
the streets.
So many ways, the most powerful lessons I've
learned in the last 10 years
have been to move beyond
my traditional training
to slow down.
There's the reason I took over 200 interviews
for this bill people wanted their story heard,
and they wanted to bring it to the
public. And again, not simply in a book
but in the public landscape in new school
curriculum in new monuments.
And as the humanity's come under attack, again
and again, and we see students move towards
other disciplines.
I wonder if this is a way to
revive our profession
at See ourselves
as public intellectual and not simply speaking in
the media or writing op ads, But what
does it mean to walk
alongside of people whose stories is enormously important
but never been told.
What does it mean to help them imagine
a school system?
Or
a main street that represents their sense of
the past and not someone else's.
I think engaging in those kinds of question
activities promise kind of
20 first century renewal of the profession
that I think can help rebirth the humanities.
In many ways, this is not new.
You know, throughout history,
academics have always seen themselves as having a
1 leg in the academy, and 1 leg
in the community.
But I found that perhaps it hasn't been
as true as it needs to be
recently.
And I find now in the deep south
as we find ourselves
subject to anti D laws.
That this this is this is this work
is necessary. We need to tell the stories
of these individual in my case of the
civil rights movement.
Need to get them into the churches into
the schools
because these histories need to be preserved
And most importantly, the laboratory
potential of these stories of organizing of imagining
a better world,
they can be less heard or even silenced
perhaps in these new laws, but they need
to be celebrated. They need to be brought
to the public conscience
this I believe is 1 of the mission
of historians is today.
My guess today has been John Gig.
He is author
of bloody Tuesday, the untold story of the
struggle for civil rights in Tu,
John, thank you so much for being part
of historically thinking. Thank you for inviting. Been
a wonderful hour.
And thanks so much to you as well
for being partner historically thinking.
You like the podcast, you can, of course,
give us review on the Podcast platform of
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But by far the best way of helping
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George Madonna is our producer, John Rad is
our sound engineer. I'm A and bone, and
I'll be back with more history to think
about and to shape the way we think
about the present.