Hey, humans.
How's it going?
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me know.
If you listen to a podcast, and you
have questions for a previous guest,
let me know. Some of these,
I guess I've had... I have more questions
for. So
definitely gonna have some people coming back. Oh,
and also, if you're in the Maryland area,
September tenth and eleventh. I'm gonna be performing
music. I'm a singer song as well, performing
music at Chat Bud Winery,
and and that is in Chesapeake City, Maryland.
I'll be performing with in a round. That's
what we saw writers call it in around
with Megan Lin
and Paul Jenkins
and
Sam Brooke. So it's gonna be a really
great weekend of new sick and wine, what
a combo.
This particular
episode is with Karen Lynch.
She is a retired
police officer,
San Francisco police officer, and she was 1
of the first
female officers in San Francisco.
So that's a very cool thing. She wrote
a memoir, which I devoured. It's really good.
It's called good cop,
bad daughter.
And,
gosh. I mean, I let the interviews fee
for itself, but she's a delightful woman, and
I really enjoyed speaking with her
Alright. Karen Lynch.
Hey, Human podcast.
Hello?
Hi. Can you see me? Let's see Front
camera.
Okay. Let's see. Okay. I see you and
then okay. There's the. There should be a
button that says camera? Is it too dark?
I'm part of in the corner of my
kitchen and there realize that it's a little
darker than I thought it would be.
No. You look great. Can you see me
now? Where you are. Yay.
Okay. Good. Hi. Okay. Fine How are you?
I'm well. How are you?
Good. It's good to meet you. It's good
to meet you? Yeah. I'm gonna let's see
here. I'm the my microphone. I've got I've
got 2 computers running at the same time.
So all very exciting technology.
But I'm only recording the audio. Not that.
So I'm just paying attention the levels to
see where I am for things like
the gain and the volume. Say to say
a little something just I can see if
I can. A little something. There you go.
Gee. I look better on radio.
It's totally y'all. Throw y'all.
Okay. That should help.
Cool. I'll you the fit. Right? I don't
I don't know that much about you, but
you're a musician. I was performing some writer.
And and,
dabble in writing poetry and books and things,
but nothing nothing concrete yet, and then
painter.
My painter or too.
Right. Cool. And a podcast apparently.
Wow was that pretty. Yeah. Yeah.
Well, okay. So when I guess, we just
get started really,
welcome Karen. Thank you for being on a
human. I really appreciate it.
Thank you. I'm happy to be here. Yeah.
I, your book, right here, good cop, bad
daughter.
I loved it. I really did. I I
blew through it. I read it so quickly
because I I saw myself,
my childhood and a lot of things.
I had it... I'm I'm sorry.
No. That's what it is. I had some
similar experiences.
Nobody ever tried to set me on fire,
but there were a couple other
Hairy moments. So...
Yeah. There's so I always talk to you
about... It's it's your... First of all, you're
1 of the very first female cups in
America. Correct?
Well,
I was 1 of the first generation. I
was not actually the 1 of the first
in San Francisco. They first started hiring women
in 19 77 at came in at 19
81. Okay But at that time, they were
still quite that we were were not, and
you know, there were very a few of
us There were maybe a hundred at this
time.
So other people that paved the road for
me. But by the time I got there,
we were still not really wanted and I
had to deal with a lot of that
a lot of just amazing, I think to
try to scare us that of doing the
job. Yeah. So that it was still kind
of a sense that it it was kind
of in our hands to prove
because that when and could do the job
because the popular belief was that we were
too coward and too weak to emotional,
all of these sort of stereotypes about women.
And so we felt kind of a,
a weight on our shoulders
to prove that women could do this so
that the doors would be open, but kept
her. It would just take a minute of
a man giving birth to realize that a
woman is the a thousand times jog.
Well, it true. You know, in some ways,
I think,
maybe we fear pain a little less. I
don't know. I mean, I think after you've
given birth it does kind of,
make you feel like I yeah, I can
take it. Yeah. Yeah. So... Okay. Let's I
guess start from the beginning. It's the it's
always the best place to start. You were
born in San Francisco.
Yes. That
came from the East Coast and they... They
wanted to be writers, which is kind of
ironic because They didn't have much success with
that. They both did write and they had
some, but
some poetry readings and staff during the beat.
Each and. And they had bit word here
by that whole beat
Jack Kara.
Sure. Or curling getty scene. Out. So I'm
really happy. The 1 thing that I will
never ever regret, but they moved out here
and I was born here because it's such
a great place to be.
What was it like growing up
in that in the height of the height
Ash
time frame.
Well, I had just such an citing childhood
because,
after my parents got divorced, my my mother
hooked up with the man, I call my
step father it's really just the live boyfriend
who eventually saved me in the book gym.
Yeah. And he when she met me me
had a a bookstore, and they just at
the beginning of sort of the whole hippie
stage, they started,
right into making buttons, button titles. That,
became really popular and they were served by
the cutting edge of the whole button and
bumper her sticker scene. And so the bookstore
kind of dissolved and they opened the head
heads shop that had posters and all the
beautiful film posters in the Avalon and all
of things that are now artwork that I
sure wish Can. Oh, man.
Yeah. But they would... It was fun, You
know, they would sit around drinking 1 with
other people in the store, other customers and
friends and and they would
shout out different
ideas for button titles. Like, you know? I
mean, obviously, the... You know, what if they
gave war nobody came? Those those kind of
things, but to your your mom and jim
and those couple friends, they invented these
iconic
sayings. Let's take a second to acknowledge that.
That is incredible of it. Yeah. A lot
of them they did. I mean, not that
particular 1 I that 1 was 1 that
they it but just I don't know where
who invented that 1. But,
it's silly went. Like, my mother would come
up with stuff, like, go intercourse ice self
or
oh, gosh. There's so many, Some of them,
some moment but it was so fun. Just...
You know, it was really creative and fun
and and people,
like, at some high school students would would
come and hang out there, and it was
really cool to see the beginning of that.
And and my my step father would deliver
buttons and posters to the stores on hate,
and we would bring them down and bring
them in and I got to be, like,
his little helper
and I just remember walking down Eighth Street
and people trying to sell us at to,
you know, window pain, all that kind of
stuff be advertising. I think it might have
been before it was the illegal to use
L lsd. Is nobody really knew what it
was yet. Yeah. Timothy Lee had
shouted from the rooftops at that point yet.
We should have kept a quiet at.
No. No, actually, I think Ellis lsd was
not the best thing the way the way
people were taking it any way it's. You
know. I mean, I'm sure it's it it
could be really good if it was
refined, but I think this... They were selling
on the street have a lot of Other
stuff? Other stuff in Yeah. I I spent
AAA
year in high school, every
of every other weekend, my friends and I
would go to the beach or whatever, and
we would take acid and just have a
ball.
Oh. Well you must've have had the good
step. I think so Probably. Yeah. It was
a great time.
Miss thank you for sure.
Oh, yeah. So
I... I'm trying to think of the best
way to approach this
conversation, the book is great. That you wrote
a memoir and about your childhood and growing
up in your decision to join the police
force when you're when your mom
was considered them basically nazis. And I believe
is what she referred to the police as
First, this book, it read, like, a great
fiction book.
That's a compliment. I mean, here's your life
is playing out like this the craziest
truth is stranger than fiction. Right? This crazy.
I I couldn't put it down honestly. It
would make a great movie if you ever
think about doing that. But,
actually trying to make it into a television
and theories right now. So... Oh, that's great.
My fingers crossed that it will all work
out. Oh, I'll cross my fingers too. That
would be amazing. Because I look for good
cop, bad daughter, the series.
Yes. I mean, it's... It'd be a great
series. For sure, like,
could just picture the pluck child that is,
you know.
Yeah. So great. They're lot of different. Yeah.
Angle you could do what it. Starts they're
a lot of...
Yeah. My life was so strange. I think
that's why I I always felt compelled to
write a more memoir. I wanted people
to know. After I read
Janet Walls book, the glass castle. Mh.
I felt... That was in my thirties, I
think. And I felt like, oh, my god.
I wish there had been books like this
when I was a teenager
because when you're going through it and you're
watching the brady bunch or whatever and you
think
everybody else in America has this normal life
when normal whatever that is. And you have
this, you know, horrible thing and who... How
were you supposed to navigate it.
I just thought, you know, we need more
books like this. We need books about people
surviving
bizarre and crappy childhood heads to sort of,
like,
just to
to give encouragement to other people. Yeah. We're
right. To to young people almost. To talk
about what what we're talking about because I
read the book. So I know your story,
everyone listening,
although they'll read the little,
you know, description when they listen to the
podcast,
talk about
sort of the general aspect of of your
life.
Well, my mother was bipolar.
And so the first step the first real
chapter after the pro log begins. I was
committed to a mental hospital
went before I was born because she was...
I was
in Ut, with her at Ag State Hospital.
And, of course, I don't remember that. I
would be very freaky if I do. I
have a very good memory which is strange
I can remember so much from my childhood
did back to about Age 2. I think
because it was so vivid and traumatic and
all of that so many changing scenes.
And part of her mental illness was
she would take me she loved to travel
and she would take around the world, but
she didn't like to fly. She was a
flying. So we took trains and ships.
But the problem was whenever she get to
a place within a few weeks, months or
well, however long. She would have some sort
of breakdown and end up either,
abandoning me somewhere, and I would be, you
know, wandering around loss did h 5 in
Japan, or
or in England, I ended up in a
children's home for some time for a couple
of months, I think.
And
so... And she would end up in these
various site awards
around the... Well,
England was really. The only 1 outside the
country, but ended up in Cy words quite
frequently
in California.
And so that was kind of, I I
say the book is about how my mother
trained me to be a police officer
because in a lot of ways,
learning how to deal with her had to
calm her down when she was crazy,
how to
talk to her
really sort of did give me a good
idea of how to talk to people who
are in altered states and and just to
be very calm and things like that and,
you know, not argue with them or or
confront them things like that.
And
in a in a unconscious way, I think
and I didn't really realize this until I
finish the book. And that's 1 of the
interesting things about writing them memoir is you
get a really sort of
a more interesting look at your own life
and all of the things that I tied
together.
And at some point, I realized that unconsciously,
I had wanted to arm myself to protect
myself from this woman who had tried to
kill me who had done all these
traumatic things to me. But the book isn't,
like, oh, my god. My mother was so
horrible. She did all these horrible things to
me. And that that it wasn't really, you
know, the message I wanted to convey. I
wanted to convey that, you know, she was
a complex character. She did many. Wonderful things
for me too. She taught me a left
of books and and brought me to some
really interesting places that I'm really glad I
got to see and live in, and they
were beautiful and interesting.
Met so many people. But at the same
time,
you know, it it was
very difficult call. You have mentioned in the
book about how your mother's eye color would
change And every time when use... You mentioned
I 3 times.
And when you describe it, I I had
no does that happen in mental illness that
people I cut... Or is that something that
was just a a metaphor or...
No. It was real, and I don't know.
I don't know that many more bipolar people
well enough to know, you know, I would
encounter them in the street at worked, but
I wouldn't know what their eye color had
been before. But with my mother, it was
absolutely true. It was not a metaphor for.
She had very deep vivid blue eyes and
when she would become
when she'd go to a manic state, I
would see her eye color lightning.
Ai would become lighter and lighter till it
the point where was
almost like a white,
gray, you know, It was not...
It was very strange. And that even before
they start saying,
you know, as a child, I knew intuitively
that whatever was going on in her brain
was biochemical.
There was no doubt about it because I
could see the chemical street of body changing.
Right Mean, that to me that was the
evidence.
So... And and they knew that. I mean,
they... At that time, the treatment was with
them, which
she refused to take,
because it required blood tests that required,
she... She was never,
willing to do that and plus the Manic
state. It's really exciting. It's like being on
speed or something, I think. And I mean,
I don't know. I... I've never been manic
per s. But
I don't think when people are are in
the Manic state they want to end. I
think it feels good to them. It's just
that it creates
disaster for their lives and the people around
those. Sure.
Sure. So, like, when she tried to set
you on fire, was that a manic phase
or a depressed phase?
That was her her manic phase was,
when she would do those kind of things.
The depressive phase, she would just
day in,
bed,
smoked tons of cigarettes and.
She was pretty,
into very into history, and my very much
an intellectual. She she read everything in sight,
and she could talk about all sorts of
subjects jackson,
things like that never been to call, but,
just self educated and and red and red
and red. And she did... She would spend
years like that, like, a year or 2
in bed. I mean, not just in bed.
She did get up to do stuff, but
just spent hours waiting and reading and reading.
But when she went manic, that was when
all bets were off, and it felt very
scary as a child because it was, like
she could do anything, and I couldn't even
imagine the stuff she was gonna come up
with. You know? And,
So, yeah, the episode with the fire thing.
I don't know what her intention was, but
but, yeah. She brought me to a church
and then set my hair on while lighting
candles. And
you know, and that was just bizarre, and
I think at some point she
became convinced,
usually should become convinced I was
possessed by demons or something like that. And,
you know, that her job was to wipe
me out. Is very interesting the link between
highly intelligent people and that wave of insanity
that...
Yeah. It it is very interesting. I I
read a lot of about it because those
coarse thing, You know?
I've always been afraid this is gonna happen
to me or to my kids or something.
So I have right about that end. And
it does seem like there... There's a link
obviously between creativity and and be this. And
nutty. Yeah. And, and then if you can
really find a good bent bet for your
creative
and a way to express yourself in other
ways. Sometimes it seems like that
may, like, stop people from having breakdowns and
having to be manic in some other, you
know, art is a really good way to
to focus your manic ness.
Absolutely.
Did your mom read the book?
No. My mother? I didn't even know where
my mother was when the book came out
because she had
I kind of had
periodically, I would take, like, a break from
her and just sort of, like, let disappeared,
and she had been in manic phase and
was just out of control. And so I
hadn't talked to her in about 5 years.
And when the book came up out,
the publisher asked me to track her down
just to, you know, see if she would
sue us because I wrote about her or
just, you know, what she might do.
And so I did have to find her
and it was a little trickier I had
to go to the social security office and
give them her social security number, and then
they forwarded a letter. And she was in
a skilled nursing facility, And she's still there,
and she's
pretty
much in the state of dementia I'd say
at this point. So I could probably read
her the whole story and I doubt she'd
recognize recognized that this was about her. Does
she recognized you at this point? Because I
know I've toward the end. She she she
knew you were, but
in the end of the book, when you
went to see her. Yeah. She did... She
knew who I was during that visit. And
then
excuse me. I did go back a couple
of times with my with my son with
her grandson who's 21 now. And
with my husband. And by the last time,
she said she didn't know who I was.
And and then she... I said I'm Karen
and your daughter and she said, oh, yes.
I remember Karen and the girl, but, she
was killed by her squad in the police
department. So... Yeah. So currently, she in her
mind, my squad had shot me for some
reason.
Well, that's interesting.
Yeah. You a, pretty, yeah. Pretty dramatic way
to go. Yeah.
Wow. So used spoke about the
that sort of stuff is genetic, I know
that for me, when I
when I was hitting my early twenties, I
started getting very
concerned if I got depressed or anything like
that I thought, oh, god, And My am
I... If I got my mother's
issues. And
That's your my brother by Mueller.
Manic depressive and
Did,
and, you know.
Yeah. Fun stuff.
Yeah. But stuff And I think They're not
well medicated back then. Now. She's well medicated
and we're, you know, we're fine, But, yeah.
Yeah. I fine enough.
Yeah.
Bipolar It's just the old fashioned term for
it. I think,
or or bipolar is now. The the normal
temperature term for manic depression. Okay. That's what
they called her back so I know. Okay.
So then yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She would
have fits of of depression that kept her
in bed. And if there were things that
you would said about how she would... Your
mom would
behave for certain events
that I found very familiar.
You know, you were... Like, when you would
be going to an event, and she would
she would make you super upset and
Okay. All that very familiar.
Yeah.
You could pretty much predict that if there
was a big event coming up, like a
graduation or
a wedding or, you know, fast 70. We
we had to... Something like that. She would...
She could create the manic
episodes in her own body
by drinking. So sometimes she would... Some sometimes
she need to really drink to set it
off. But if if she was upset enough,
she would just start drinking for maybe 2
days heavily, and then by the third day,
her eyes have changed, and she was in
a full blown manic
episode, and she didn't drink anymore. She just
would be
flying high on natural chemicals. I don't even
know what exactly kind of diet that
she had because no doctor precise that goofy
doctor on the ship when when she was
thrown in the brake that time.
He was the only 1 who gave me
a diagnosis, and he believed she was manic
depressive with overt tons of paranoid schizophrenia ass.
So when she was in the brake, this
doctor, I... She disappeared on the ship for
a long time, and I know I knew
that she was getting ready to have a
manic
episode because of the eye color thing. And
I went back to our cabin and,
at some point, this doctor the ship knocked
on the cabin door and told me that
my mother was in the brake, which... Old
are were you? At that point. I think
I was
I'm trying to remember Was either 12 or
almost 13.
And
yeah. And I would remember thinking, oh, my
god, the b. I didn't ago that this
was a cruise ship. It's like, what is
this a pirate ship. There's a break. I
don't even... I didn't even know they had
those things but Yeah. And so that was
an adventure that,
you know, was very
distressing because they pretty much just let me
stay in cabin and go about
normal cruise ship business.
And you're a child, that's the difference. I
mean, it's an in this day and age.
If that were to happen. They would I
mean, I'm sure some sort of child protective
service would be brought in from somewhere to.
Absolutely. It was such a different time. I
mean, it was only the sixties and seventies.
But and it... Which doesn't seem like ancient
times, but so many things were so different
there. It was some, you know, children, like,
especially on the English ships. You could drink
nobody would stop you if you were you
know, you could walk to the bar, and
that's the way it wasn't an England too.
And and I I tell people things that
would happen on the cruise ships because she
were taking on these ships a lot, and
nobody can believe it, Like, the the women.
I've talked to people who work on ships.
Now and I say said 1 woman. Do
they still do burial at sea, and she
looked at me like I was insane, but
I remember seeing many burial at sea when
we were crossing the Atlantic, and that was
just normal. People actually
who love the ocean and they would just
travel on ships all the time, and their
dream was to be buried and sea. So...
Yeah. And now that's, like, are you kidding
me
Ecological, I don't think they're down with that
anymore. No.
I lost your video. I can't see you
now.
Oh, let me see. Oh, Hurry am. Okay.
So, you mentioned a second ago about how,
you know, we're... That you have friends who
are working change the the voice of, of,
mental illness. And I I too... I I
find that, of course, it's... I about this
all the time on my various podcast that
it's certainly
We we we don't help people
that need help and, you know, growing up
in that
situation, you have to be the parent.
But you also
you see the humanity behind the crazy,
You you know. I mean, deep down, you
love your mother. That's... Yeah. It's very apparent
throughout the throughout the story. And I'm glad
that up the Absolutely.
Absolutely.
All. You know, I definitely did not want
it to be... As I said before a
victim story like, oh
poor me.
I I know that whatever happened to my
mother had be a much worse than what
happened to me. At some point, I think,
I I know she grew up with a
mother who told her She didn't want her.
And that had have been hugely.
I got
traumatic for, I think. Did she ever acknowledged
that she had mental your mother ever not
she had mental illness?
I think she knew she was but, you
know, she wasn't really
normal whatever that is, But she would describe
it as her a breakdowns. She never really
said, oh, yes. I need, you know, I
need medication or whatever she hated the medications
they would put her on. So she pretty
much refused to take anything.
At 1 point she was on thor, and
that's heavy
oh, it's very happy and,
I wrote it and as david about
trying to o d on her thor, which
is not part of the book, but it's
in shades of blue, which is a book
about depression. And and trying to bring out
stories about people who survived suicide attempts, and
things like that. Mh. And when when I
took thor,
it took a while for. I they they...
I finally told on cell so they made
me throw up and get it out of
my system, but there was enough still in
my system
that,
I got a sense of why she hated
that medication. Yeah. How old are you when
you did that?
I was
04:18.
Okay.
So do you kind of it had enough?
And...
Yeah. And, you know, she was on the
verge of another manic episode. She was... I
could see the beginning of it, I was...
I just reached a point where it's, like,
I cannot survive another 1 of manic episodes.
And
and she
head at that point tried to strangle me
and it was just a... You know, there
was just... It was
things were escalating. The drama was escalating. The
violence was escalating.
And the thing with my life was I
really had nowhere else to go. Yeah. I
was completely dependent on her.
She had... I like, Isolated I herself from
her family who had all been on the
east Coast, and I never really met any
of them except once when she could at
me as a small child.
And, so I didn't really
have anybody to go to except my my
friend's families, and I was too embarrassed, most
the time to really let them know how
bad things that got.
And so,
because I was so dependent on her, I
just... I couldn't think of any way out.
I knew I was 14 I I couldn't
make it out there by my myself. I
had a horrible, horribly
intense sense that I need did to take
care of her. Mh Like this demand in
her either that was part of it too.
God. What a childhood so intense.
Yeah. You know, it was intense and... But,
you know, I know people have had much
worse. Mine was bizarre just, you know, so
many dramatic episodes.
But, the thing that I'm really grateful for
is that that I had no younger siblings.
She did have a few portions when I
was
when I was a child, and I think,
oh, my god, if she'd had those babies,
I would never have been able to get
away from her. Because I would have felt
so responsible to try to save them,
because that's kinda how I roll, you know,
it becomes that I become a cop because,
she really trained me. She needs to be
a enough. That was it,
which she wanted it. She wanted me to
rescue her and take care of her. And
so
I realized I could never do that. Nobody
can say her. No.
Right. Did you did you have to go
not have to? I mean, I I went
3 years of therapy you go through therapy
after? Yeah. Oh, yes. I I chose to,
go through probably
6 years therapy
Yeah. And goodness. You know, so much of
therapy is who your therapist is. Oh. God.
Yes.
And I was fortunate to get an excellent
therapist,
and she helped me a great deal. But,
you know, obviously, I'm not... I didn't get
it waste. Got free. I have had a
great life. I have a great family. Now
I've been married for 27 years. I have
3 children who are all wonderful. Yeah. And...
But I've had my share of Ptsd, and
and in my my third... I guess my
thirties. Yeah. I discovered. I, you know, I
started having panic attacks, not at work, but
I would kinda, like, find a a place
to have having a attack and then, you
know, that wasn't at work. I managed to
always function really well at work. And
And so it's it's still there, you know,
it's it's like you always have... You always
carry that baggage with you. Oh, for sure.
It's always there. I'm absolutely
everybody got something. So... Yeah. It doesn't mean
that your story isn't, you know, uniquely yours
and as intense as somebody who maybe
that we always try and make something better
or worse
on someone else's life, but it's horrible to
be in it. You know, every everyone's horror
story is their horror story. So yeah. Yeah
And... Yeah. I definitely honor your horror story,
and know that it had...
I know I'd had some good times too
for sure, But
and, obviously, it created an environment where you
were able to probably be a really excellent
place officer.
Well, thank you. I hope I was. You
know, I... There are things I I did
that I wish in retrospect I get done
differently, but that's a book for another day.
Yeah. Well, we all have gotten in our
lives I things. For sure. Talk Okay. So
talk about this. Now you... I love the
story of you looking out the the part
in the book where you're looking out the
window and you see yourself driving?
Yeah. Oh, my gosh. That was such AII
kind of downplayed the spiritual aspect of that
because I didn't want people to think to
complete when he to have you're written the
book and a lot of people really put
off by anything that seems
spiritual or whatever. Well, I was love to
hear the loo 2 version because I'm I'm
a loo chance. So... Good. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
I'll have to be rewrite the buckets of
Loo to.
I'm pretty good it's scary. But, I was...
I... At the time, I was just... I
had just graduated from
Uc Berkeley because I had been planning to
be a which was really what my mother
wanted me to be, and that was what
she thought she was training me for. And
I was,
serving when while I was in college
I was under underage, but nobody knew that
And I worked in the bar as the
cocktail Waitress and on my day off by
was at Vas
in North Beach, which is... Ironically where my
parents met, but I had never been in
the bar before and for some reason,
my,
best friend and I were just wandering around
North Beach and we decided to go into
Ba, and we were upstairs and we ordered
irish coffee and we were looking out onto
to this avenue,
and I saw
this
black and white police card driving up Columbus.
And this woman was driving the car, and
then she had a male partner, and her
hair was down, and it was long and
dark and maybe, like my areas.
And I looked at her and I thought
I was looking at myself, and I turned
to my friend, and I said, look, I'm
driving this car.
And she looked at just to see
the tail end of the car, and I
turned her and I said, I I think
I'm supposed to be a cop, which
totally bizarre because it was the first time
that thought had ever crossed my mind.
They were just beginning to recruit women as
I said 19 77. Mh. We're the first
ones. I had never even thought women could
be police. And police are in my story
at a lot, which aisle because police in
my life were the ones who came to
rescue me from her. Yeah. Like So I
police as
people who
help you and save you, and and I
wanna be a helper and a saver.
And so
when I look at the the window, I
saw this It was, like, I didn't even
know women could beat cops. And I had...
I think Charlie Angels had like, the first
show
where, you know, we had, like, police women
and these old shows. But those were mostly,
like, they were not really, like, uniformed officers
who were out there. Charlie Angels at the
beginning, at the show, they would show
a Jack smith in her police performance San
Francisco at the shooting range. And I had
seen that and I thought, wow. Can women
do that. But that was as far as
the thought went. When they when I saw
this woman driving this car and thought it
was myself. All of a sudden, it was
like a possibility. I had never even considered
at it. And from that moment on, it
was like, I knew this is what my
destiny went. I was supposed to do this.
So it was very strange. It's incredible I
love that little week from God saying, hey.
Yeah. And and the funny thing was this
woman when I finally figured out who she
was that she wasn't actually and, you know,
I imagined,
hallucinations of myself,
ask flashback or something about.
When once I realized that,
it was
it was so funny because within a few
months, I met her. I met actual woman
and she became my mentor. Mh.
Yeah. I was really bummed out in the
book when she... Because she was the 1
that that
at the party, and then she stepped down,
and I was so bummed that she stepped
down. I have to tell you, again, I'm
gonna keep b this book because I laughed.
I cried. I held my breath. It was
is really a good book.
Here. Really.
To hear it good. I wanted it to
be. And I read a lot. I'm a
v reader, and so, you know, it's up
against many, many books, and it it definitely
held its own. Very
excellent. Yeah.
So and what... I mean, I've... It made
me wanna, you know, know more about this
story, So... Which is always good especially for
Show. Right? That's what creates more seasons.
Yeah. If I would... You know, that's the
thing I'm opening bring the Tv show will
happen because if there were so many characters
I wanted to develop more, like, people from
the Academy, like, Doughnut and just all of
them. You know, there were just so many
people that were so interesting. Sure. I write
a whole book about each of them. So,
you know, so we'll see what happens but.
You know. Yeah. You spoke about the 1
during the riots, and you you ran... You
were... You got separated from your a group
from your troop,
and,
and
came upon that bar where is it weren't
Is that right? No. Which was the officer
that was running around hitting people with the
baton? Oh, yeah.
And I thought, well, that I mean, here's
a thing. It's there's 2 there's people that
wanna help people in the world there's people
that wanna hurt people in the world and
people who have you know, AAA
complex of I'm a bully and I'm a
horrible for, you know, whatever I wanna... And
I wanna put my power on you, and
the people are like, I wanna help you
and I wanna lift you up. And, of
course,
media now is is at a fever pitch
where we know everything happening in real time,
and there's all these stories about,
I know, police officers being violent towards citizens.
But it bugs me all the...
There's not
report every day about all the goodness that
police officers do. You know, I was coming
over from a concert last night standing on
the corner had a lovely conversation with the
police officer who was out there riding his
ass off in full Regalia on the street
corner, making sure that drunk dumb people don't
get hit by cars, you know, when they
cross the street. Well, thank you for talking.
Him, because that that really makes our day
when, you know, if you can just treat
us like humans. But, yeah. You know, if
I would say the vast majority they're something
like, 800000
employees in the United States,
which is incredible when you think about that
number.
I would say the vast majority, probably,
you know, 750000
of week are really good people we are
want to help people and and they were
drawn to the job
because they wanted to help their community, make
a difference for tech people,
things like that.
But, you know, if if you have, we
been it's, you know, 1 percent or 2
percent of those people are running around, and
they shouldn't be in the job. They're the
ones who are gonna get the attention. They're
the ones who are... You know, we're seeing
the same dozen videos over and over and
over.
But
I try to remind people that there's something
like 65000000
interactions between police and civilians every day every
year, Every you're in America. Yeah. And very
few of them end up in some sort
of tragic
mistake or or horrible
decision by the cop or things like that.
Very very few of them. And it's gotta
be... I mean, speak to that too. It's
gonna be terrifying. I think for some reason,
we, as a society, we look at police
to to police us to, you know, make
sure things
are
functioning re Ryan and the bad guy, you
know, is is taken away. It's the bad
guy and the good guys protected.
But it what a terrifying job? I mean
my god, You you're risking your life. Every
single day. You don't know what you're walking
into? Someone could snap. It could be a
mentally ill person. It could be, you know,
a guy who's got a gun on his
wife, and you have to go in and
somehow talk a guy down or or whatever
it is or, you know, a little kids
being abused by his mother and you have
that care care balance of if you go
in there, that could get be worse later
in the day because you showed up, you
know, like, all this crazy stuff
I don't know. I don't know how
police officers
maintain
that all. I don't know how you can
go into every single day. I mean, I'm
sure the good stuff hopefully outweighs the bad
stuff. But.
You know. Yeah. I think it's I'm more
dangerous. I mean, they say there's 300000000
guns in America,
and there's something like 25000
and gun deaths a year. And we're the
ones... The cops are the ones who were
going to all those calls. Most people in
their normal lives do not
run into too many murders or things like
that. We're the ones who getting sent to
the parts of town that, a lot of
people in their wanna go to
where people are killing each other and wanting
to kill police so wanting to, you know,
and I'm not justifying any of, Of course.
Things we've seen that are wrong, and those
cuffs who are making those horrible choices need
to be taken out of the job and
sitting first. But
but, yes, I think there is a lot
of... You're dealing with people now who have
a lot of Ptsd cups on the street.
They've been shot at multiple times.
And yet still, the vast majority of cops
retired without ever shooting their gun in the
line of duty.
Yeah. We that, I wish those statistics 6
hit the newspapers every day.
Yeah. They make it seem as if well,
and not and part of it also the
public cease, television shows where cops are constantly
shooting it out. Mh. Yeah while, you know,
those things happen every day in America. They
don't happen to every cup, every day, and
they don't happen,
you know, multiple times to the same cotton,
usually.
Are a few
sections, but the vast majority of us never
get shot and never end up shooting our
guns at anybody. Did you ever shoot your
gun? I did not. I do not have
to shoot line of duty was very fortunate.
And a lot of that was luck.
And
you know, the thing is we see these
horrible
videos, but we don't see that cops are
confronted with armed suspects
every day.
And don't use
excessive force quite frequently are able to to
ab evade it without shooting anybody. And yet,
the assumption it as well. Yeah. They didn't
shoot him because he was white or they
didn't shoot this person. Or They shot this
person because he was wet. And it's not
the case. So it's very much a case
of,
of, different cops just
react differently. And it's not... It's a lot
to do with the the fear factor. You
know, I think that we're not seeing the
whole picture. We don't know. She was this
up shot at with his partner killed a
year ago, you know, we don't know the
whole story. Of course with me is brain,
you know. Do police officers get Pt ptsd
d
evaluations every year? No. They don't. And and,
you know, I I don't think departments really
have the resources to do that. And that's
the the bummer of this whole thing is
that so much of this is about training.
You know, people if you you react the
way that you train and and small departments
just don't have the funds and many of
the big departments don't have the funds to
really put you through the repetition just training
of, okay, responding to a gun call. How
are you gonna do this? Okay. This is
now we're adding this and, you know, different
stimulation kind of things that really help people
prepare. And and every department has some training.
I'm not saying there's no training, but
the amount of training that you need to
make the right choice, most of the time
is is phenomenal. Of course. Yeah. And it
should be a yearly thing, I think. But,
you know, I I think about that too.
Maybe if we bought 1 last bomb for
the military, and took that 10000000 dollars and
put it into our,
you know, our protect and serve fund That
might be a good idea.
Well, yeah. If it's a very complex problem.
And of course, the whole open carry second
amendment thing is creating
a huge thing, and and I do think
there's going to be a change. I think
the younger generation at some point is not
gonna tolerate
the number of guns we have, and I'm
not saying nobody should have a gun in
America. I'm not... I'm not advocating that everybody's
why obviously taken away, but certainly, there is
no reason why people should have Arc 15
and... Right. All kind of stuff. It's getting
ridiculous.
Yeah. Yeah. The... Your your neighborhood shouldn't be
a Dmz.
No. Shouldn't be. And I don't really know
how... I I don't understand how cops can
be expected to
differentiate between the so called good guys with
the guns and the bad guys with the
guns. I mean, we just saw that sixth
situation in Dallas where where the cops 5
cops were killed and during the course of
that, there was a man who somewhat fit
the description of the guy who was shooting
wearing Camouflage and carrying an Ar 15. But
and they... And the media actually posted him
as being the suspect. I know. Yeah. And
he wasn't the suspect, and so I don't
know how you can really have a society
where people are running around in camouflage
with an A ar 15 as civilians,
and we're to assume that they are not
gonna cause us harm. Yeah.
It was that that whole thing was such
was just so sad that the fact,
first of all, the the shooters like I'm
gonna take out the man, the white man
or whether are the white place officers, but
I believe that 3 of the 5 were
were police officers of color.
And if not more, And, you know, you
probably took out some really great guys, buddy.
Yeah. I, you know, I think... I don't
remember. I think they were mostly light, but,
you know,
in any in case, yeah, They were decent
people. They were good guys who were out
there trying to do the right thing and
Right. And so he's basically doing the opposite
of whatever it was his chris in mind
was trying to accomplish.
And, yeah. It is... It's insane. And is.
Yeah. Violence does not...
It just... Oh, macy's so great.
I probably is crazy.
Okay. So let's get back to to your
story and so we've got on that little
tangent, but it's the fascinating tangent
so
you see yourself in the car driving on
the street,
and you think this is for me.
Now, first of all, let's just acknowledge that
that's brave as hell considering your a female
in the era that you were and where
women
were not police officers really. Like you said,
there was maybe a hundred.
And
I mean, that has been so scary. And
to know that your mom is gonna freak
out and you were, you know Look, yeah.
My biggest fear was my mother's reaction. Yeah.
Because It never occurred to me that I
would get killed or that it was that
dangerous.
I was pretty a pretty
strong feminist then. And that was really the
era where women were trying to break into
all of the things they told us we
couldn't do. Right. The fire department, and
just every day there was, like, some new
thing. There was some movie
shu they're on was in I think about
the coal miners, you know, where she, like,
broke to working and the Coal mines, which
My I got to me that's way more
terrifying than movies. Yeah. I don't know why
anyone would want to be a cool miner.
That sounds like a horrible job, but... Yeah.
I being in undergrad I'm slightly clog before
but Too. Yeah. I wouldn't like that at
all.
So...
Yeah. So
it was sort of I had it shipped
on my shoulder. I was, like, 20, you
know, you have to be, like, 21 and
stupid to sign up.
Think that you're... You know, you'll never be
killed or you'll hang You're gonna live to
be a hundred or whatever I was thinking.
And so I didn't really occur to me,
And and I kept hearing things like, there
were so many, articles in the newspaper about
the new women cups and
the public being pulled and saying, oh, women
are too weak into emotional and too coward.
And so it would kinda, like, pushed me,
you know, me off It's like, how dare
you say that, Theater. I'm gonna approve a
week day, you know? And and so I
had a little bit of a chip on
my shoulder. And, I don't... And so that
might have been what partially what was pushing
me.
And then Dublin, talk about Dublin.
Once you got in and you started doing
the basic train or what do you call?
Not basic training? That's military, But what do
you call it for you guys?
Is it still basic training? That place academy.
Yeah. The police academy. So basic of training
is military. So police Academy.
You go into Police Academy.
And
this Dublin character,
oh, like, gosh.
Yeah. It was essentially deaf lynn was a
a sort of a a mirror of my
mother.
So, you know, he was, like, this sort
of
bull. He was a bully, and I was
used dealing with the bully because my mother
could be quite a bully. Yeah.
And so, yeah. He was
my nemesis in the Police Academy. He really
was determined to
to get the women out, and he did
not like the fact that women were... The
the city was forced to hire women by
a consent to created by a a big
legal action that happened a couple of here
in this in mid seventies.
And a lot of the older men really
resisted at. They just did not want the
women in the department, and he was 1
of them. So he was getting ready to
retire, and, I think our cost was his
class and he was, like, determined to get
rid of the women.
Yeah. I was really bummed when your friend
bagged out at the last minute too.
Yeah. That was a bummer, and
you know, that it was the right choice
for her. I thought it really interesting that
when you did the way in once you
were a police off sir, And you you
had to get the way in with Dublin,
and he didn't really acknowledge you as in
as if he didn't even know what it
was you.
Yeah. So that was dope... I mean, that
was the thing you trying to use at
the end to try to fire me saying,
I was, like, 3 pounds over the wait
limit, which was... Absurd because Yeah. Even if
I had been, Doughnut was, like, 40 hundred
pounds. I don't know. He was, like, so
far over the wait limit,
and yet, he wasn't even being called in
to be weighed. And here he had made
this huge thing about the weight limit, and
I really... I was so close that there
was no way he could fire me for
that.
And yet, you know, here, I just I
never had been really overweight. I was, like,
strong, but, you know, it wasn't, like, bad
or anything. Sure. At this time I... I
got in... We have to go for... We
had to go for away and, like, every
6 months. So, like, 6 months into my
job. I went for the physical fitness assessment,
and and he waved me and he just
wrote my... I lost 10 pounds. I thought
he would oh, good job. No. You know,
something that had been so major and obsessive
for him was really nothing to him. I
was nothing to him.
Think it's a really good lesson in life
in general that, you know, the people who
are our bullies,
you know, we could be anyone. And we
take it personally because it's it's it's an
attack against us. But in reality, they're... They'll
they'll pick any target.
That's because I think being a bully as
part of being a narcissist.
Yeah. I agree. That's who we are seeing
in politics.
Oh, god. Yes. And
and you're right. I don't think it matters.
They don't care who they believe they bully
everybody that they can. And they think they
can't get away with. A reaction. They're looking
for the reaction.
Yeah. So do you think that being a
female
in comparison to the male counterparts
helped you
be a police officer, maybe give you an
empathy or an intuition, you know, the feminine
intuition or,
toward
some of your suspects or some of your...
The things that
that you had to face? I I do
think that I don't know if it was
just me or, you know, being a woman.
I think they're men who have really good
intuition too.
But I think that I did have a
pretty good intuition, like, for when somebody was
gonna go off on me. When I when
I felt, like, whatever I was doing was
not calming the person down, and they were
gonna just fight with us. I was pretty
good at knowing when call for help before
I needed it. And
you know, and I didn't need to do
it that often, but every now and then
you could just tell that somebody was going
to cause you fight, and if they were
much bigger than I was, You know, usually
I had a partner, but I would just,
you know, I would get a car rolling.
So that kind of thing, I think helped
me.
I... You know, there were times where I
had no intuition at all, but and and
would have made a different choice.
But I did feel like I... For the
most part,
I I did a good job everything Think.
And,
I don't regret the job at all. I
loved it. It was really
what I was meant to do. Yeah. I'm
just I'm sure the Police academy
although it was excellent training,
I'm guessing your mother was the best training,
you could have possibly
received.
She totally was. Yeah.
Yeah.
Living with a person like that makes you
psychic makes use... No know what's happening before
it happens.
I think so. I think it's a a
really like a survival,
instinct. Mh.
Small, a term young age. I think when
you know that you cannot trust the people
who are
supposed to be taking care of you. Something
else kicks in, and I don't know what
if it's a spiritual,
you know, some people might think spirit guides,
some people might think it's just intuition. I
don't know if but definitely, I felt like
something was protecting me. Sure. Her a lot
of my life. And in the street also
is a cop.
Did you...
Did you worry that your children
were gonna manifest any of this stuff that
your mom since it is genetic and was
did she inherit it from a grandparent or
do you know? I I don't know
she inherited, from if she did.
She didn't
have that. But she didn't speak that much
about her family, so I... It was hard
to know.
I did worry when I had kids, but
I also... In 1 of my other weird
spiritual moments, when I was 11
with spirit guide or this voice that it
comes into my head sometimes
occasionally. This isn't, like, I have voice is
talking. No. I know exactly what you mean.
Yeah. But, on this 1 occasion, this this
voice told me you're gonna have 2 sons,
and
So I I knew that I was part
of the reason I was on this plan
planet I was to have these 2 sons.
And so that made me feel like I
was supposed to do it. And it it
kind of laid my fears that they might
end up with her illness, and
I so far, they've been buying. They... I...
Either 24 and 21 and I don't see
any signs of my mother's or, you know,
they're they're happy well adjusted kids. That's great.
Is your husband was he a police officer
as well? Or... Was He went
lieutenant he retired as 10 and there's a
cop for 34 years. What is that like
for a a police officer to meet another
police officer, and I mean, I and fall
in love? I mean, it's
Well, I have a strange story because when
I met him, I actually didn't like him
that much. He was a rank above me,
and he was my sort of a supervisor
in my station, but not my direct supervisor.
We had several sergeant who were supervisors. But
he was a new sergeant, and he came
to
my station and he was a little bit
badge heavy, which, you know, when you first
get promoted, People wanna to do a great
job, so they're, like, overly zealous. Yeah. And
And so he had not made a great
impression on in the beginning. But, and we
were both seeing other people, and I never
thought about him as a possible
person to date or anything.
But 1 Christmas eve, if I was coming
out of the station, and I was single,
and I really had nothing to do and
I was kind of bummed, you know, chris
with you, but I've got no to go.
And I'm leaving work and
all of a sudden, I see him standing
on this on the sidewalk and he has
this nose in this pine branch like wrapped
in with cello pain thing, and he walks
over to me and he hands to me.
He says, Mary Chris miss Karen. And I
was, like stunned. I didn't... I I never
thought of him in a romantic way before,
but here he was. And and then time
passed, and he didn't ask me out to
kept thinking out he's gonna ask me out,
and I was too shy to make conversation
with him. And finally, it hurts to me.
Maybe because he's
my... Like, a rank above me. It was
right around the Anita hill stuff, and it
was just becoming
sexual harassment was just coming into the national
conversation. Yeah. But maybe he's afraid that I'm
going make an complaint that he harassed me.
So
Yeah. So I wrote my notes saying it'd
be nice to get together for a a
coffee or a drink sometime, and and then
he did call me right away. And it
turned out my fear my thought about his
fears split where was exactly correct. In fact
he still has that no 28 years later.
Slowly.
It's very cute. Yeah.
And I don't know whether he keeps it
out of being romantic or just in case
I ever make it complaint.
That's hilarious.
Love it.
So talk about the Tv show real quick.
You these pitch should I assume and you're
not yet. Now we're in the process. There's
a couple in Los Angeles who are are
writing a pitch and a I pilot and
then and then we're going to pitch it.
So... So... Yeah. The fingers crossed get picked
up by somebody
I think it would be a great show.
I mean, it's got all the elements for
sure. And, you know, America loves police dramas.
Yeah. And I don't want it to be,
like, a regular,
another police procedural kind of thing. I I
hope that it will be,
more character based. And, you know, just these
crazy people
crazy characters should, you know, words. Well, it's
funny. There are moments in here that are
that are really funny
too. Oh, Okay. And I good I. I
cut I got pretty misty dia when Jim
passed away. I I had a feeling it
was coming just as you're set up really
excellent for it, And I just went, oh,
no. I don't even wanna turn the page.
And therefore. I know 1 of my lives
regret, but
I wasn't able to really do something big
for him, you know, I... As I got
older and and made my own money and,
you know, were things I wanted to do
to thank him me you now, like, you
know, take him on a great trip or...
Yeah. I feel like think. And I really
like I
Yeah. Yeah. I feel like he knows. He
knows you lock him, and I think he
does, and I think also,
I'm I'm pretty close to his kids,
Barb and statement and and I I've tried
to be a good big sister to them,
and they've been a great free sibling to
me. So I figured that's the way to
pay it forward. Hey. God for Jim too.
I mean, just reading that, just he took
about being your angel
My god. He was amazing. Yes. Yeah. He
he totally did not have to take me
in. He was really risking
a lot and nowadays,
you might be risking being arrested just for
doing that, you know, without going through legal
channels.
Might if you cannot not get been a
place to today. I don't know where I
would ended up. So yeah. Yeah. I was
a little... The when that you talked about,
I'm sort of jumping around course. I want
people to read the book, and, hopefully, I'm
dropping enough little little biscuits that they'll wanna
eat it all up,
that
the... When you went in, you answered the
add, which would have been a kinder Obvious
Craigslist. You answered it ads that you were
trying your were desperate for money. Right?
Eat. Right? And this guy was looking for
models and, you know, I'm stupid. I'm
15 or whatever I was.
And fully developed.
Yeah. Berry developed. I developed at 11. So
I'd always looked much older. People always assumed
that was 20. Yeah. From the time I
was 10 I.
And, yeah. So I answered this at this
ad and ended up in a very
potentially dangerous stupid situation that that pretty much
only a teenager who's got nobody looking over
her would have chosen to get into. But
thank goodness that I got out of it
alive, You know, and I got out of
it without doing something
stupid that I would have granted later. So...
Yeah. 1 singular walk through a door changes
a person's life completely. And for some of
these kids, who are on the street and
homeless
and they're hungry
and scared and desperate that it it makes
sense that they would turn to that, you
know? Absolutely.
Absolutely. And it also makes sense. That in
order to do it, you would have to
almost become a drug addict it because such
a just disgusting sting job and someone who...
I mean it can be, you know, you're
just... Yeah. Yeah. I totally get how how
it all evolves. And, yeah, for most young
women who have no skills and,
are out on the streets. Your your choices
are kinda limited at, and young men too.
They're on man. Absolutely, you know, on the
street yeah. It's it's a tough thing. It
that's a tough thing. But what's something that
you kept out of the book? For for
whatever reason. You said that there were some
things you didn't talk about? Oh, well, you
know, that the suicide attempt I left out,
and I I wasn't really sure why I
was leaving it out of the time. But
intuitively, I felt like this this is a
survivor book, and I don't wanna get off
into this tangent of this
episode.
I kinda left it out, and then Mh.
And Amy Ferris was doing her ant pathology.
Shades had a blue about all of these
people who had survived suicide in the point
of the book is it gets better hanging
in there. I'm so glad I survived. Right.
Then I was... Then I realized why I
left that out. And was like, oh, because
this was coming. And so when I wrote
that story and and added it to and
and Amy was kind enough to add it
to her and la itchy. She's great. I'm
gonna talk to her on the podcast as
well. She's scared. I love her post on
Facebook. She's a fireball.
Of it.
She
so it's inspiring. Yeah. I. Yeah. So, you
know, for me, the the thing that was
best about police work was really the Cam.
I mean, I did... I was drawn to
it because I I wanted family and in
my
imagination. I was now gonna have 2000
brothers and sisters in blue who would have
my back, and I'd have their that. And
I did get a lot of that. In
fact,
at the end of my career, I ended
up getting breast cancer and,
a lot of my coworkers donated their time,
their vacation time and you can you can
donate sick time and vacation did whatever time
you wanna donate to people who are in
crisis or whatever. And I was able to
be off for a really long time, and
and, ultimately, I decided just not to go
back. I've retired as I was old enough
to do that. But I retired before I
plan to. But, anyway, they they really do
show up for you when
when things get bad, and,
And, you know, it's dysfunctional at this dysfunctional
fact family too. You have members that you
don't like and people you hope you don't
have to work with. But for the most
part, I found my coworkers to be just
really
loving people who take care of each other.
Yeah. Your first partner and do you stay
in touch with him?
Oh, yeah. Very much so I'm I'm some
of my closest friends are former partners.
And, the the part... I changed every race.
So I always have to think twice now.
Who did I what did Like,
Nora, whose real name is not Nora. Yeah.
Still my 1 of my closest friends,
because I had... So because there were so
few women in my class, and I ended
up being the only 1 in my class
to get out of there.
I ended up not having as many female
prints department as I would have liked to
had.
But I sort of acquired them since since
retiring,
Facebook is a wonderful thing. Yeah. Like, yeah.
People that I would just know in past
thing that I never got a chance to
work with. I've gotten to know much better
since since leaving. Yeah.
What it? Yours is a truly wonderful story
and it's inspiring. It really is.
Thank you. Yeah. I can't wait for the
Tv show. Well thank. You. So thank you
for reading the book. I really appreciate. Oh,
I devoured it. I read it very quickly.
I I very... I wanted it to... I
wanted to know more, which I was is
good considering I was gonna be interviewing you.
And I'm... There's always a million questions. But
Yeah. I mean, I will definitely... I'll post
a link so that people can can get
to the books so they too can read
it.
It's excellent. Yeah. And you're excellent, and thank
you for your service.
Right. Back at you. Thank you.
It was really a pleasure talking to you.
A pleasure talking you to you, and thanks
for having me on. Yeah. And please keep
in touch when the show gets picked up
and anyone wanna have be on and talk
about the show. But that's a that's a
process that sell them,
you know, and, actually, before we hang up,
I'd love to ask,
was it hard to get somebody
to to take you on as a memoir.
I mean,
you know, you Oh, yeah. Actually, I I
started out trying to get an agent, and
I sent, query letters out to all of
these agents, but I I had a list
of different memoir,
agents. And I... 1 of my friends well,
in my friend group was Christine Bro, who
I knew,
had some connections in the publishing business but
I didn't really know what she was doing.
And I just sent her letter her saying,
hey, Christine, I'm looking for an agent, and
I'm not having a whole lot of left.
Do you know anyone. And she replied and
she's said, oh, a matter of fact I
just started my own publishing business. May I
read your book, and she was the 1
who decided to publish the book. So she's
justin... Yeah. I was really lucky. She and
and I love her. She's a great woman
and so she had just started this Andy
grass, nothing, but the truth,
publications then she was mostly focusing on women's
stories because she felt like they weren't always
getting as much exposure as some other stories.
Yeah. And I are you are you getting
this book out? What when did you write
this? What year was it?
20 14. Oh, so it's only been out
a little while.
2 years. Yeah. Yeah. So will, hopefully,
it will catch on, like, wildfire and people
will keep reading it.
Thank you. That's very sweet of you. Yeah.
Well, thank you so much.
My pleasure. Yeah. And then kiwi posted, please.
K. Yeah. Have a great day.
Bye.